1 Tuesday, 1 November 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could
6 you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-03-68, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.
10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies
12 and gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my own language.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you. You may sit
15 Appearances for the Prosecution.
16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours and also good morning to
17 my learned friends of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben lead counsel for
18 the Prosecution. I'm here together with Ms. Joanne Richardson and our
19 case manager, Mrs. Donnica Henry-Frijlink. And I apologise, but later on
20 this morning, Ms. Patricia Sellers will join the team as well. She will
21 be a little bit later.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Wubben and good morning to you and
23 your team.
24 Appearances for Naser Oric.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
1 morning to my learned friends. My name is Vasvija Vidovic and together
2 with Mr. John Jones, I appear for Mr. Naser Oric. With us are our legal
3 assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you and
5 your team.
6 I understand there has been a problem raised by the Defence. I'm
7 copied into it. The Defence wrote to the Prosecution that they have been
8 unable to locate the following exhibits on the electronic data system, and
9 nor has the Prosecution disclosed the following documents. We have a list
10 of them here. I will go through them for the sake of the record, ERN
11 numbers 0345-5109, 0109-7642, 0345-5118, 0345-5107, 0345-5114. It also
12 says that -- the rest is not important to read. So what's the position on
13 this? I take it now -- yes, Mr. Jones?
14 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. Well, we don't in fact have --
15 still don't have copies of those documents.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: This is serious.
17 MR. JONES: Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, it's -- and I'm getting fed up, really.
19 MR. JONES: Well indeed, Your Honour. The position is we did
20 search the EDS system, two of our legal assistants searched and we were
21 not able to find these documents. And we left messages, voice messages,
22 for the Prosecution to help us with this matter. The Prosecution this
23 morning in our discussions with them are maintaining that those documents
24 are on EDS but we have been looking for them and we simply cannot find
25 them. In those circumstances I propose firstly that on the next occasion
1 we would suggest that a member of the Registry or the Chambers sit with us
2 and we'll demonstrate that these documents are not there. That we are not
3 able to find them. Because otherwise I don't see how we are going to
4 resolve a situation where the Prosecution simply assert that it's on the
5 EDS and we are unable to find it. But in any event, since this is an
6 issue, it would also seem to be a matter of pure courtesy that actually
7 copies would be provided for us and left in our locker and I would suggest
8 certainly for the future that that should be done on each occasion that
9 the Prosecution intend to use exhibits.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree.
11 MR. JONES: And that's why it was further greatly annoying that we
12 weren't able to reach anyone last night. We all have mobile phones and
13 the first call which my legal assistant made was at 6.30 and I don't think
14 it's open for the Prosecution to send off the exhibit list and then to be
15 unreachable because obviously if we have questions we need to be able to
16 reach them on their mobile phones and maybe resolve the platter without
17 having to bring it for the attention of the Trial Chamber. So I think it
18 would only be reasonable to expect the Prosecution firstly to be available
19 in the evenings after they have sent out their exhibit lists for these
20 sorts of queries and secondly to leave courtesy copies of the documents
21 they intend to use because EDS is not a complete answer to these issues.
22 As we have seen there are problems with EDS and EDS, in a sense, is also
23 an optional adjunct to the whole disclosure system. And we have a right
24 to be provided with copies of the documents the Prosecution intends to
25 use. That's the position. We don't have the documents still and I
1 wouldn't intend to close my examination in chief until I've seen those
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The thing is that I notice, having gone
4 through the Prosecution list, unless there is an updated list that I am
5 not aware of, and your letter or communication to the Prosecution that as
6 regards 03455107 and 03455114, I don't really see them in the Prosecution
7 list of exhibits. Maybe I am missing something but --
8 MR. JONES: Well that's the other matter I was going to raise,
9 Your Honour, which is that there are documents which they haven't been
10 tendered as exhibits. We don't know the source, we don't know if they
11 have been typed up the day before by Serb intelligence and we see
12 documents in Cyrillic with stamps which seem rather doubtful to us. So we
13 -- my second point I was going to make this morning is we certainly
14 intend to object strongly to the authenticity of several of these
15 documents, particularly where they have never been tendered by the
16 Prosecution investigator.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
18 MR. JONES: The other matter is I understand that the Prosecution
19 may be alleging that some of these documents have been disclosed
20 previously and that's certainly something which at this stage anyway we
21 deny. We will check that allegation. But certainly we are not aware of
22 any of these documents.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: That can be verified. I mean, that can be easily
24 verified easily. So I thank you, Mr. Jones, for bringing this to the
25 attention of the Trial Chamber.
1 Who is responding? Yes, Mr. Wubben.
2 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, the first part regarding communications,
3 and that's the communications between lead counsel, I respond to it and
4 then I will give the floor to Ms. Joanne Richardson for the further
6 I learned of this issue this morning, only this morning.
7 Yesterday I was available in the office until around 8.00 in the evening,
8 and I have not been contacting regarding this issue until this very
9 morning. And then I learned, as I also was aware, that
10 Ms. Joanne Richardson was available at her office with -- at least my
11 telephone number is available to lead counsel and also Mr. Jones knows my
12 telephone number and how to touch base with me. So this comes for a
13 surprise that they were not able to contact me and as it was always been a
14 good communication when there are problems and solved between lead counsel
15 or counsel, I was fully aware when I learned of this, this morning, that I
16 was available but had not been contacted. For further details I will now
17 ask Ms. Joanne Richardson to make her submission. Thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson? Thank you, Mr. Wubben.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Good morning, Your Honours and good morning to
20 the Defence. Your Honour, it's -- I just learned of the situation this
21 morning myself. I was in my office until extremely late last night and I
22 did not get a call from the Defence. It is my understanding that they did
23 try to contact our case manager who herself has advised me that her --
24 both her home number and cell and office number has been available to the
25 Defence. I don't know what the miscommunication is with regards to them
1 trying to contact us but I know I was in my office until almost 10.00.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go to the crux of the matter, these documents.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: And secondly, Your Honour, it's my understanding
4 that the documents are on the EDS and they were disclosed in a regular
5 disclosure disk to the Defence. It's also my understanding that there was
6 a discussion this morning between our case manager and the legal assistant
7 of the Defence team and we advised that documents were placed in the
8 locker last evening, not all of them, at least two, and we were making
9 copies of the others and this is in response to their assertions that they
10 do not have them and cannot locate them on EDS, although it's my
11 understanding that they are. What I can do Your Honour is simply put off
12 using those documents in my cross-examination later on today until the
13 Defence has had an opportunity to review them, and I can use them
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That may be one solution. On the other
16 hand, it's beyond me, and I'm being extremely frank and blunt at the same
17 time with you. It's beyond me how you can even disagree on whether these
18 documents are on the EDS -- available on the EDS system or not. One side
19 is saying definite they are not. And please let's sit down together and
20 check. The other one is saying, yes, they are definitely in. The Trial
21 Chamber should never be put in this position.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Of course, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Never, never. That's number 1. And secondly, if
24 you are so sure that they have been disclosed on a CD to the Defence,
25 please --
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we are looking into that -- as,
2 again, this was only raised this morning. We only learned of it. So we
3 will look into the receipt of the disclosures that we've provided to them
4 on the CD. And also, double check to see if it is in EDS and confirm our
5 statements to you this morning. Outside of that, I can't provide you with
6 any other explanation at this point other than we feel that we fulfil our
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't extract explanations if you don't have them,
9 obviously. I mean, so, but let's work it out this way. You will not make
10 use of these documents today when you start the cross-examination. And we
11 will, of course, reserve the rights of the Prosecution -- of the Defence
12 to put further questions which may arise out of these documents. In the
13 meantime, while it is being understood that you will not make use of these
14 documents preferably not make use of these documents today, from
15 experience, the situation might change if you find these documents in the
16 first place. You should have them available if you had in mind to use
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we do have them. Copies are being
19 made --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Make copies of them and hand them over to the
21 Defence and also to us to put us in a position to make an assessment and
22 maybe, after seeing the contents of these documents, the Defence might not
23 even object to your making use of them today and we can -- I'm going to
24 use a heavy word, plod forward.
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that's exactly what we advised the
1 Defence this morning, that copies would be made and they would be given to
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So, but -- yes, Mr. Jones.
4 MR. JONES: Yes, firstly just if in future any documents which the
5 Prosecution intend to use which are not exhibits, if they could simply
6 place that in our locker then already that will go a long way to solve
7 this problem. Secondly, I must admit I'm baffled if the Prosecution is
8 saying that the CaseMap manager didn't receive messages on her phone. We
9 left messages, and if that's being denied then we really do any need to
10 look into -- into this, because I was present while my assistant left
11 messages. So I'm not sure the Prosecution is denying receiving messages
12 from us.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't --
14 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam. I didn't understand it that way.
16 What I understood Ms. Richardson to say is that there's no denial that
17 messages were left for Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink, but that she has in any
18 case forwarded you, made available to you, all her telephone numbers,
19 including home, apparently, and mobile telephone. That's how I understood
20 it. I didn't understand that there was a statement denying what you had
21 stated, that you had left a message.
22 MR. JONES: Well, Ms. Richardson said that her case -- CaseMap
23 manager had "herself advised me that both her home number and cell and
24 office number had been available to the Defence. I don't know what the
25 communication is with regards to them trying to contact us."
1 Well, available, we left messages on those numbers.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --
3 MR. JONES: I certainly would not --
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm not at all -- and I -- clearly,
5 as Mr. Jones has just repeated my -- what I said. I've never said that
6 they didn't leave messages. What I said, there's some kind of
7 miscommunication and that Ms. Henry-Frijlink's telephone numbers are
8 available. She said she did not receive a message at home, but we were
9 both here very late yesterday and they could have left it on her cell
10 number which she didn't receive immediately so --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's close it -- let's close it here, Mr. Jones,
12 for the time being and continue with the evidence. And --
13 MR. JONES: We did leave a message on her cell number as well.
14 I --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Jones. I mean, I do not
16 doubt it for a moment. But sometimes -- and it happens to me sometimes --
17 I do get SMS messages, for example, three days afterwards. And phone
18 messages a day or two later. I mean, it has happened to me. So here in
19 the Netherlands, because it doesn't happen anywhere else, to be honest
20 with you, but it does happen here. Sometimes I get voice messages two
21 days later.
22 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. The other preliminary
23 concerns the interview of our client which I wanted to just mention
24 briefly as well before the witness comes in. Right from the start of this
25 trial, we've been asking for there to be a corrected translation of the
1 interview. In reviewing the interview again, we've noticed wide
2 discrepancies between the Bosnian and the English on extremely important
3 matters, in some cases where exculpatory material has literally been
4 edited out or in any event is not present in the English even though it's
5 in the Bosnian. And in an a segment which apparently the Prosecution
6 intends to use, there is very serious discrepancy which I certainly would
7 intend to raise. But I can wait until that arises in cross-examination.
8 But we'll ask for the witness at that stage to leave and deal with that.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.
10 MR. JONES: It's a very serious matter and we intend to raise it,
11 possibly eventually in a motion because there are large numbers of
12 inaccuracies and discrepancies.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, perhaps Mr. Jones --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones, for raising this matter and
15 being ethically very correct about it too.
16 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I just would like at the time that
18 we address this for Mr. Jones, to provide exactly which interview he's
19 referring to because there are a number of statements given by this
20 witness. So just to clarify for us to be sure we are all talking about
21 the same interview.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you can do that after the -- during the
24 MR. JONES: Well, I'll do it when it arises, when I see which
25 section they intend to use. There are so many discrepancies I can't
1 possibly identify them all right now.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime try to procure these copies as --
3 a.s.a.p, please, all right?
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, they are being done this morning.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
6 Madam Registrar, could you please bring the witness in, escort the
7 witness? And we have lost 20 minutes, 22 minutes.
8 While the witness is still on his way, you probably are already
9 aware because you should be notified -- I don't know -- but there is a
10 submission of the Registry in several cases, including this case, pursuant
11 to Rule 33(B) of the rules of procedure, regarding Defence motion seeking
12 access to confidential material in several cases.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you received it?
15 MR. JONES: I believe so. We'll check.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But it contains some very interesting
17 material, and if you wish to provide us with an input from your part on
18 the matter, we'll certainly take it into consideration. The same applies
19 to the Prosecution, of course, needless to say. All right?
20 This is a document that was filed on the 28th of October, in the
21 following, in the Hadzihasanovic, the Slobodan Milosevic, the Blagojevic,
22 this case, Prlic, which hasn't started, Delic which Madam Vidovic knows
23 about, and Miletic, all right? This is where it has been filed.
24 WITNESS: MUSTAFA SACIROVIC [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning, Mr. Sacirovic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We are going to continue with your
4 testimony this morning. And I'm actually immediately calling upon
5 Mr. Jones to proceed with his questions. May I just reminds you that you
6 are testifying under oath pursuant to the solemn declaration that you
7 entered yesterday. Thank you.
8 Examined by Mr. Jones: [Continued]
9 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. And good morning from me, Mr. Sacirovic.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Yesterday you gave evidence about certain films, certain things
13 which you filmed, and information which you gathered. And we saw some of
14 those videos. Did you film a session of the War Presidency?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. Thank you. I'm moving to a different subject now.
17 Did you know someone in Srebrenica called Kemo?
18 A. There were several men called Kemo.
19 Q. Do you know a Kemo from Pale?
20 A. Yes. I do know Kemo from Pale, from the time I spent in Pale.
21 Q. Do you know what his full name was?
22 A. Kemal Mehmedovic.
23 Q. When you saw him, was he in any sort of uniform?
24 A. No.
25 Q. When you saw him, was he armed?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Was he a fighter in an organised unit, so far as you know, this is
3 in the period 1992, up to demilitarisation.
4 A. While I was at Pale, until July 1992, he was a civilian. He
5 worked with a tractor.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. JONES: If the witness could be shown D573. I'm moving to a
8 new area.
9 Q. Now, this is just to read into the record, it's Republic of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Srebrenica municipality, War Presidency, Srebrenica, 3
11 April 1993. And it's a report and it starts off, "We wish to take this
12 opportunity to inform in detail all those to whom we are writing of events
13 on the Srebrenica front between 20 January and 3 April 1993."
14 Now, firstly, were you in Srebrenica in that period, from 20
15 January 1993, to the 3rd of April 1993?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And were you still gathering information for your commission
18 during that period?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And where were you gathering information?
21 A. In Srebrenica. In this period, I spent most of the time in the
22 hospital there because the wounded were brought in every day and that's
23 where I got the latest and most accurate information.
24 Q. From speaking to the wounded?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, for the benefit of everyone we are going to review the
2 situation in this period, entry by entry, with reference to documents from
3 the Serbian Drina Corps. So I'm going to start by reading the entries and
4 directing your attention, Mr. Sacirovic, to the entries for 21st to 24th
5 January 1993 and the 25th of January 1993, and I'll just read that. 21 to
6 24 January 1993, shelling of the free territory of Srebrenica. 25 January
7 1993, "the aggressor launched a large offensive against the free territory
8 of Srebrenica, engaging strong forces of the Uzice Corps -- sorry, Uzice
9 and Valjevo Corps, mechanised armoured and infantry forces that crossed
10 the bridge in Skelani and the Parucac dam. The aggressor occupied and
11 then completely torched the villages of Poljak, Milicevici, Jagodnja, and
12 Joseva, massacring 80 civilians and wounding over 40."
13 Do you see those entries?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And do they accurately state the situation at the time, to your
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, if you keep that document with you for a moment, we have a
19 new exhibit, the ERN is 04273560. And it's, I believe, not a complete
20 translation but just of the relevant parts. This is the translation as we
21 received it. This is from the Drina Corps Command, dated 23 January 1993,
22 to the commands of all corps units. And it's a combat order signed by
23 commander Colonel Milenko Zivanovic, and I need to read paragraphs 3 and 4
24 into the record.
25 Paragraph 3, "The VRS GS reserve will launch an offensive in
1 central Podrinje, grouping their main forces on the Bratunac-Potocari
2 village - Srebrenica - the bauxite mine, Gunjaci village axis,, and the
3 auxiliary ones on the Skelani village, Osmace village, Zeleni Jadar
4 village, Srebrenica axis to perform the following task: In a coordinated
5 action it our corps forces smash and destroy the enemy forces in the
6 general area of Srebrenica, liberate the Sase and Gunjaci mines and cut
7 the green transversal in the general area of Srebrenica. Then in a
8 coordinated action with our corps forces, gradually destroy the enemy in
9 the general areas of Cerska and Zepa.
10 And then paragraph 4, "I've decided: Launch an attack with the
11 main forces on the Milici, Suceska, Podravanje village, Zvornik, Kamenica,
12 Cerska, Olovo Kamenica village, Rudo, Medjedja village, Visegrad, Medjedja
13 village, and Rogatica Medjedja village axes, and with the auxiliary forces
14 at the lines reached, engage in persistent Defence and active combat
15 operations on these axes and tie up as many enemy forces as possible,
16 inflicting as many losses as possible with the aim of creating the best
17 possible conditions for a speedy breakthrough of the VRS GS reserve, and
18 smashing and destroying the enemy forces in the Srebrenica, Cerska, and
19 Zepa sectors."
20 Now, I have several questions arising from this. First, do you
21 agree that this is a combat order for a coordinated offencive across the
22 whole of the enclave, Kamenica, Cerska, Konjevic Polje, Srebrenica?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If we go to paragraph 5, unit tasks, "The Bratunac Light Infantry
25 Brigade with reinforcement units, after the necessary regrouping of
1 forces, will launch an attack with the main forces on the Drmno village,
2 Glogova village, Kravica axis. Its task - in a coordinated action with
3 part of the VRS GS reserve - is to take control of the Velika Glogova
4 village, Halilovici village sector, and then continue the attack and take
5 control of the Kravica village sector. Once Kravica village, the Sase
6 mine, and Srebrenica are controlled, mop the area of any enemy forces left
7 behind and isolated, and create conditions to establish authority.
8 "Support provided by the artillery of the VRS GS reserve."
9 Now, I want you to just concentrate on the words there, "once
10 Kravica village, the Sase mine and Srebrenica are controlled, mop the area
11 of any enemy forces left behind and isolate it." My question to this.
12 The stated aim of this combat order is, in fact, to take Srebrenica
13 entirely, isn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what do the words "mop the area of any enemy forces left
16 behind" mean to you in this context?
17 A. This means to eliminate all manpower because all the other
18 features that existed there had been long destroyed. This means that any
19 manpower found or living beings found should be destroyed.
20 Q. In other words, what happened in July 1995?
21 A. Yes, yes. Precisely.
22 Q. And we see at the end of that paragraph the words "support
23 provided by the artillery of the VRS GS reserve." What can you tell us
24 about the use of artillery by the Serbs against the Srebrenica pocket in
25 late January 1993?
1 A. The free territory of Srebrenica was shelled from all available
2 assets in the hands of the army of Republika Srpska, or rather the former
3 Yugoslav People's Army, from all directions. To put it simply, it was
4 shelled from Serbia and from all the Serb-held territories surrounding the
6 MR. JONES: Thank you. I'll ask for an exhibit number for this
7 document, please.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the next number is D8 --
9 THE REGISTRAR: D878, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: 878. So this document, which in the B/C/S version
11 consists of five pages starting with ERN 04273560 up to and inclusive of
12 04273564, and 3 pages in English is being tendered and marked as Defence
13 Exhibit D878. Thank you.
14 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. And we have a new exhibit to
15 distribute which is ERN 04273566. And while that's being passed around,
16 Mr. Sacirovic, in your evidence yesterday, you stated that you heard about
17 units arriving from Novi Sad and Valjevo. Do you recall that testimony?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where is Valjevo?
20 A. Valjevo is located in Serbia. To be more precise, some 70 or 80
21 kilometres away from the Drina River, Bratunac and Srebrenica.
22 Q. All right. And we saw reference, do we not, to the Valjevo Corps
23 in the entry of for 25 January 1993 in the document we saw earlier, D573?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, I'm going to read this document into the record. It's from
1 the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade command dated 24 January 1993. It's
2 addressed to the Drina Corps command, the VRS Main Staff, the commander
3 personally, "In accordance with a verbal order and with regard to a report
4 submitted on the means of support for the units of the Zvornik and
5 Bratunac Brigades," and then a list follows. "One, ammunition:
6 Shells/rockets, one combat set each for all requested equipment," and then
7 there is a list of various calibres of artillery. "2. Four 82-millimetre
8 recoilless gun, one combat set each for the Bratunac Brigade.
9 "3. Four 122-millimetre M-38 howitzers for the Zvornik Brigade.
10 "4. Taking of ten T-34 tanks for the Zvornik Brigade (two taken
11 because of crews).
12 And then "5. The following units have arrived in the area between
13 Loznicka and Ljubovija, an armoured mechanised battalion in Loznicka,
14 122-millimetre battery in Radalj, a tank and mechanised company in the
15 Ljubovija area, 122-millimetre M-38 howitzer battery, 128-millimetre Oganj
16 VBR battery in Ljubovija, a military police company in the Mali Zvornik
17 area, a reconnaissance company in the Mali Zvornik-Ljubovija area,
18 120-millimetre rocket launcher battery in the Ljubovija area, two
19 128-millimetre self-propelled rocket launcher in the Ljubovija area, an
20 engineer's company in the Mali Zvornik Ljubovija area and then the command
21 post of the brigade from Valjevo, the KM of the Drina, OG, from Valjevo,
22 first army IKM, forward command post in the Ljubovija area." And it's
23 signed by Colonel Milutin Skocajic.
24 Now, does this document firstly confirm that on the 24th of
25 January 1993, units among others from Valjevo had arrived to provide
1 support for the units of the Zvornik and Bratunac Brigades?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you yourself hear about the arrival of these units and these
4 vast amounts of artillery in the area in late January 1993?
5 A. Yes. As I've already indicated yesterday, we were listening in
6 through the makeshift radio to the Bratunac radio where we obtained very
7 important information. Very often, they stated that reinforcements from
8 Serbia were on the way, probably even to raise their morale.
9 Q. There is a list here of a number of artillery batteries which is
10 in the transcript so I don't need to repeat it. But looking, for example,
11 at the 122-millimetre M-38 howitzer battery and the 128-millimetre VBR
12 multiple-rocket launcher battery, can you assist the Trial Chamber with
13 how much damage the amounts of artillery mentioned here can do to
14 property, from your experience?
15 A. This type of ammunition destroys human beings, immovable features;
16 to put it simply, it can destroy a whole town.
17 Q. In what sort of a period can it destroy a whole town? How long
18 can that take with this amount of artillery?
19 A. According to what is stated here, it would take less than an hour
20 to raze an entire town if all the assets mentioned here are engaged.
21 MR. JONES: Your Honours, I don't know if Your Honour is willing
22 to accept that artillery pieces and mortars can cause fire. It's
23 something which I've been wondering whether I need to pursue with
24 witnesses or whether it's such an obvious point --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: To be honest with you, I am not interfering in any
1 way in the questions you ask to this and to other witnesses but certain
2 areas definitely have been abundantly covered. This is one of them
3 definitely. We have heard from other witnesses the effects of Zoljas,
4 of --
5 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you don't -- you don't need to -- I mean,
7 you're free to ask any questions you like but I don't think you need to
8 labour much on these areas.
9 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless it is of course contested strenuously by the
11 Prosecution which I don't think it is. Yes, Ms. Richardson?
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Certainly, I don't believe the Prosecution has
13 accepted the Defence position that all of the damage done to the
14 various --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not what I'm saying. What --
16 MS. RICHARDSON: I misunderstood, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: It's whether you accept or not that, if you fire a
18 Zolja into a building, or if artillery and certain -- particularly certain
19 kinds of artillery is directed at houses, that would cause a fire. This
20 is the -- it's a purely technical issue.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I don't believe at this point the
22 Defence -- excuse me, the Prosecution, will accept the entirety of the
23 Defence's proposition.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's a very practical approach,
25 Ms. Richardson.
1 Mr. Jones, please go as deep as you like into this matter.
2 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: But you've heard what the Trial Chamber thinks.
4 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. I'll just ask this, Mr. Sacirovic: Can artillery pieces and
6 mortars start fires in houses?
7 A. Yes. Most of the artillery pieces are contained -- contain
8 charges of different purposes. They have shaped charges that can
9 penetrate and pierce steel. They have rockets that can be ignited from
10 artillery pieces. I am not a military expert. However, from my
11 experience in Srebrenica, I arrived at the following conclusion: That
12 they had used all sorts of projectiles, even those containing toxic
13 charges, even those projectiles were used by them.
14 Q. Yes. Is that something which you actually saw for yourself?
15 A. Yes, absolutely.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. JONES: I'd ask for an exhibit number, please, for this
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Jones. This document, which
20 consists of one page in B/C/S and two pages in English and with ERN
21 04273566 is being tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit D879. Thank you,
22 Mr. Jones.
23 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. And now we have the next document, which is ERN 04273573. And
25 this is from the Uzice Corps Command, 25 January 1993, to the army of
1 Republika Srpska Drina Corps Command. I'm going to take you to the --
2 well, the first paragraph, "We hereby inform you that by 1100 hours on 25
3 January 1993, the Uzice Corps forces broke out at the following axes.
4 Radijevici village, Strazavac, to Gradina, Zabokvica village, 3, Pale
5 village, Skejici village, and then, 2. In the Uzice Corps area of attack
6 up to the axis of Jagodnja village, Osmaca village, Radosevici village."
7 First, I want to pause there. Are you familiar with the place
8 names mentioned there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Does this document confirm or not that on the 25th of January
11 1993, the Uzice Corps was present in actions in the Srebrenica and Skelani
12 area in the Radijevici, Zabokvica, Pale, Jagodnja, Osmace, et cetera?
13 A. Yes, absolutely.
14 Q. And was that or was that not confirmed by the information which
15 you gathered at the time?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. JONES: I'd simply ask for an exhibit number for this
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document, which consists of two pages, one
21 in B/C/S, one in English, the English being the translation of the
22 other -- of the B/C/S one, the ERN 04273573 is being tendered and marked
23 Defence Exhibit D880.
24 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Now I want to go back to an entry in this document, D573, the
1 document from the War Presidency. We see the entry now for 26 January to
2 1 February 1993. "Shelling of the entire free territory of Srebrenica and
3 infantry fighting on the contact lines." Now if we can look at D839, if
4 the witness can please be shown Defence Exhibit D839 -- and this is from
5 the Uzice Corps Command it's dated January 27, 1993, to the VRS Drina
6 Corps Command. On the basis of the order of Yugoslav army headquarters
7 strictly confidential number 14-1, "We would like to inform you about the
8 following: One, Uzice Corps units will hand over the reached front lines
9 to the Drina Corps on January 28 1993, starting at 4.00 p.m. They will
10 withdraw on January 29-30."
11 Now, firstly, do you agree that this document is from the Uzice
12 Corps command signed by the commander, Major General Dragoljub Ojdanic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And can you tell us where these units of the Uzice Corps would be
15 coming from?
16 A. They came from Bajina Basta or, rather, were transported into
17 Bosnia and Herzegovina across the Drina bridge at Bajina Basta or Skelani,
18 and across the hydroelectric plant Perucac above Bajina Basta.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are agreed that Bajina Basta is in Serbia. I
20 just want to make sure that we don't need evidence about that as well.
21 All right. Let's move.
22 MR. JONES: Thank you.
23 Q. Now, in paragraph 3, in the second subparagraph, it states, "In
24 our combat activities so far, we inflicted huge losses to the enemy in the
25 village of Mlecevo, Jagodnja, Joseva, the village of Daljegosta,
1 Arapovici, the village of Pavkovici, the village of Tihici, the village of
2 Milicevici, Osmace, the village of Tokoljak, and Jezero."
3 Now, my question is this, are you aware whether any of those
4 villages were in fact Serb villages before the war.
5 A. No.
6 Q. I'll ask you to go through the list carefully, we can deal with
7 them one by one, if you like. Mlecevo, was that a Serb or Muslim village
8 before the war?
9 A. Mlecevo was a mixed village.
10 Q. Thank you. Arapovici, was that Serb, Muslim or mixed before the
12 A. A mixed village.
13 Q. And Pavkovici?
14 A. As well, mixed village.
15 Q. So would it be right to understand from this document that in this
16 period, Serb units from Serbia proper, in this case the Uzice Corps, were
17 in fact attacking and inflicting losses on villages among which there were
18 Serb houses before the war?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In your experience in this period, were the Serbs careful about
21 distinguishing between Serb houses and Muslim houses when they used
23 A. No.
24 Q. And can you please enlarge on that a little and explain for
25 Their Honours how that could be, as it might be difficult to understand.
1 A. When artillery opens fire, none of the features say or indicate in
2 any way whether it's a Serb, Muslim or any other feature. So weapons,
3 when they open fire, they open fire at targets. As such, none of the
4 buildings there had any external features indicating who they belonged to
5 except for the places of worship, mosques and churches, which, by their
6 appearance, indicated what they were.
7 Q. So would Serbs and Serb units from Serbia proper necessarily know
8 which villages were Muslim and which were Serb?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, we return to the War Presidency document D573 to
11 look at the entry for 2 February 1993, which reads, "The aggressor
12 continued the offensive against the free territory of Vlasenica, Zvornik,
13 and Bratunac municipalities, including the Novi Sad and Drina Corps on
14 this front. There were fierce attacks in the Voljavica region with
15 constant shelling from Serbia and aerial fire against the free territories
16 of there region."
17 Now, do you see that and does that in any way reflect your
18 experience of what was happening in that period?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I'd also ask you to just bear in mind what's described there while
21 we move to the next exhibit, which is ERN 04267410. And this is from the
22 Drina Corps Command dated 5 February 1993, it's a regular combat report to
23 the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army, signed by Colonel Milenko
24 Zivanovic, commander of the Drina corps. I'm just going to read two
25 sections and ask you to follow. First of all, paragraph 2, combat
1 readiness, "All units are in full combat readiness. Specific tasks have
2 been issued to the 1st and 2nd Birac Brigade and the 1st Zvornik and 1st
3 Bratunac Brigades. They are carrying out active combat operations along
4 several axes in order to tighten the encirclement around the enemy."
5 If we go further down, skipping a paragraph, "The 2nd Battalion of
6 the 1st Bratunac Brigade is carrying out active combat operations along
7 the following axis, Zaluzje, Kunjerac, Bjelovac."
8 And if we turn to paragraph 8, "conclusions," "Conclusions,
9 anticipated developments, and decision for future operations. We assess
10 that the enemy still has not abandoned the objective and desire to capture
11 the Drina corridor. However, I believe that the enemy forces in the
12 Cerska and Konjevic Polje and Kamenica sector are in a state of great
13 panic and, due to this, on 4 February 1993, we issued a specific tasks to
14 the 1st and 2nd Birac, the 1st Bratunac, and the 1st Zvornik Brigades and
15 the Skelani Independent Battalion, specifying the axes of attack in active
16 combat operations in order to inflict the greatest possible losses on the
17 enemy and force them to surrender or retreat towards Kamenica."
18 Did you follow that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is what is stated there, does that accurately reflect the
21 situation in early February 1993 or not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. We saw in paragraph 2 a reference to "tightening the encirclement
24 around the enemy." Is that something which you experienced or noticed in
25 Srebrenica at the time, that in fact there was a "tightening
2 A. In this period, every day there were wounded arriving from the
3 ground, which indicated that the situation was chaotic, that the Serbs
4 were attacking from all sides, against the free territory and that they
5 were getting ever closer to Srebrenica proper.
6 Q. Thank you?
7 MR. JONES: I'd ask for an exhibit number, please, for this
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document, which consists of two pages in
10 B/C/S and three pages in English, ERN 04267410 to 411 is being tendered
11 and received as -- and marked as Defence Exhibit D881.
12 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. And now if we go to a further
13 entry in D573, this War Presidency document, we have an entry for the 4th
14 to 28th of February, and it simply says, "The aggressor attacked the
15 Cerska, Konjevic Polje, Kamenica, Glogova, Skelani, Voljavica, Suceska,
16 and other defence lines."
17 Again if you can confirm or not that indeed those areas mentioned
18 there were attacked by the Serbs in February 1993?
19 A. Yes. The Serb offensive was intensifying. This can be seen from
20 the documents, but we felt it on our own skins and the situation was
21 becoming truly alarming.
22 Q. Thank you. And in that regard, we have another exhibit which is
23 ERN 04336227. And it's Drina Corps Command dated 12 February 1993, and
24 it's signed by the commander of the Drina corps, Colonel Milenko Jovanovic
25 and I'm going to refer to you paragraph 4 of that document, where it
1 reads, "I've decided to use the main forces at current positions for
2 decisive defence to prevent an enemy breakthrough deep in the zone of
3 responsibility of the corps from the following axes," and then places are
4 mentioned. And then "to use the auxiliary forces, reinforcement units of
5 the 1st KK and special operations units with strong fire support in a
6 coordinated action with forces of the defence sector to mount an attack in
7 the general direction of Potajnik, Hasanovici village, Macesi village,
8 Konjevic Polje, with the aim to crush the enemy in the area of Cerska and
9 Konjevic Polje and then embark upon liquidation and final liberation of
10 the aforementioned areas." And again we see the term "liquidation"
11 referred to there. Would your answer be as before, as to what that would
12 refer to?
13 A. Well, the word itself, "liquidation" refers to liquidating all
14 living Muslims in the area. That's the meaning of the word
15 "liquidation," to destroy, to kill, to exterminate.
16 Q. Thank you. Now continuing in that same paragraph, "At the same
17 time, forces of the Bratunac Brigade, one battalion from the 1st forward
18 defence line and the 3rd Infantry Battalion, shall conduct active
19 operations and crush the enemy in the direction of the villages of
20 Banjevici, Gornji Bacici, and Kravica. And special purpose units shall
21 conduct offensive operations on the Sapotnik, Drenjak, Konjevici village
22 axis. Forces of the Visegrad TG, tactical group, are to conduct
23 full-scale active operations towards the general area of Gorazde." Now
24 are you familiar with Banjevici and Gornji Bacici?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What area are they in?
2 A. Between Konjevic Polje and Kravica, in that area.
3 Q. Are either or both of them located near the road which you
4 indicated yesterday on the map, the road from Zelinja into Kravica?
5 A. Yes. That's the area.
6 Q. Were you aware that there was combat activity in the Kravica area
7 in February 1993?
8 A. What date did you say, excuse me?
9 Q. February 1993.
10 A. In Kravica?
11 Q. Yes. Continued combat operations. Let me -- in the Kravica area,
12 in the period February 1993.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Was there combat activity in the Konjevic Polje area in February
16 A. Yes. Konjevic Polje, Cerska, and those parts, whereas the
17 villages you have just mentioned, well, there were no people there at that
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. JONES: Now, I would ask for an exhibit number for this
21 document, please.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document which consists of five pages in
23 B/C/S and five pages in English with ERN 04336227 right through and
24 inclusive of 04336231 is being tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit
1 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Now, we go back to D573, the War Presidency document, and we see
3 an entry 11 March 1993, and the second paragraph, "General Morillon came
4 to Srebrenica today." Were you aware of General Morillon's visit to
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So would it be right that he arrived in Srebrenica in the midst of
8 this catastrophic situation, as you've described it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then if we see the entry for 13 March 1993, it says, "At 0600
11 hours the Chetniks attacked and occupied Jagodnja. Fighting continued
12 around Kragljivoda. The Biljeg and Poznanovici area was attacked. At
13 about 0900 hours the Potocari area was attacked and at 1430 hours, two
14 helicopters dropped chemical agents in the Biljeg area. During the day,
15 seven civilians were killed and ten injured. At 1700 hours, an attack
16 aircraft bombed the Biljeg and Pirici areas".
17 Now, first, are you able to confirm the information in this entry
18 and, if so, to what extent?
19 A. I can confirm that this is correct, because I repeat, at that
20 time, I was in the war hospital in Srebrenica, and every day wounded
21 arrived from all the areas around Srebrenica. I always heard information
22 from those whose wounds were not too serious or from people bringing the
23 wounded in. So I can confirm that this is correct.
24 Q. Thank you. We have a document of the same date, a new exhibit,
25 which is ERN 01332069. And in the interests of time I'll read into the
1 record the following: It's the Bratunac Brigade command, 13 March 1993,
2 regular combat report. And then I go to paragraph 2, "Our forces: During
3 the day, our forces conducted forced reconnaissance and executed
4 activities along the whole front line, especially on Pecista, Potocari,
5 and Zagoni. Our frontline was moved approximately one kilometre forward
6 to the Zuti Most towards Potocari." Now, pausing there, do you know Zuti
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Where is it?
10 A. Zuti Most is between Potocari and Bratunac.
11 Q. And can you help us with -- what sort of a situation was it on
12 13th of March 1993, with the Serbs so close to Zuti Most?
13 A. It was critical. It was very bad. It was lucky that the UN
14 turned up to prevent the Serbs from penetrating into the centre of town
15 and massacring civilians. I have to mention that they did make use of the
16 role of the UN and Philippe Morillon because, as he moved towards
17 Srebrenica, they followed in his wake, tightening the circle more and
18 more, moving their lines.
19 Q. So when you say they did make use of the role of the UN and
20 Philippe Morillon, who are you referring to?
21 A. The Serbs, the Serb forces.
22 Q. So are you saying they exploited the presence of Morillon in
23 Srebrenica in order to tighten the circle around Srebrenica?
24 A. In good measure.
25 Q. All right. Now, in terms of Potocari, this was the area you told
1 us yesterday of Naser Oric, correct?
2 A. Yes. Naser Oric was born in that village.
3 Q. And to your knowledge, was he fighting in Potocari around this
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In fact, to your knowledge, what was Naser Oric doing in this
7 period we've been looking at with this War Presidency document from
8 January to April 1993? If you know.
9 A. He was with his 20 or 30 men who were under his command, and he
10 was where there was the most fierce fighting. In that period he was
11 defending Potocari. That's where the situation was most critical in those
12 days. To prevent the Serbs from penetrating into the centre of town.
13 Q. And do you know if Naser Oric was wounded in the course of this
15 A. Yes. He was wounded in the leg, as far as I know. I think in
16 mid-March 1993. And it was difficult for him to move around.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. JONES: I'd ask for an exhibit number for this document and
19 then we move to another exhibit.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document which consists of two pages, one in
21 B/C/S, one in English, with ERN 01332069 is being tendered and marked as
22 Defence Exhibit D883.
23 MR. JONES: Thank you, in fact the next document is already an
24 exhibit. There is D220 and D219. We have revised English translations
25 because we noticed that the translation wasn't perfect. I don't know how
1 Your Honours would propose to deal with that, if I were to tender the
2 revised English translation, whether we can simply substitute it or
3 whether it becomes a second translation.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, usually what we have done in the past rather
5 than substituting is we add.
6 MR. JONES: That would be fine.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: We just add it on. With the understanding that
8 basically, unless there is an indication to the contrary, we will rely on
9 the new document rather than the old.
10 MR. JONES: Right. That's --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: There is -- later on the problem is I don't replace
12 one with the other because I don't -- the case doesn't end here. It ends
13 whenever it ends. So up until the very end we may have a submission
14 saying it's -- should look at one rather than the other or at both.
15 MR. JONES: Yes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So we leave them both there and then we see.
17 MR. JONES: That's fine.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: But there is going to be a declaration now in the
19 record that this is according to you an updated translation of the
21 MR. JONES: Yes, I'm very much obliged. Thank you.
22 So if the witness could be shown first D220?
23 Q. Now, this document is headed Bosnia-Herzegovina, Federation of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, it's dated 2nd of August 2004. And I would draw your
25 attention to the second paragraph. If you look at this document it says
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that Naser Oric was wounded once on the 12th of July 1992 in Zalazje and
2 then again on 15 March 1993. "He was wounded by pieces of a tank grenade
3 on defence in Pribicevac."
4 Now, do you know where Pribicevac is?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that location linked or not with the combat activities which we
7 just looked at in Potocari?
8 A. Yes. It's a single line, and there was a place there where the
9 Serbs were already very, very close to the town, at the very entrance to
10 the town, Pribicevac is to the east of Srebrenica. It's very close. And
11 there was very fierce fighting going on there to prevent the Serbs from
12 entering the town that day.
13 Q. Thank you. You said in relation to this wound --
14 MR. JONES: If Your Honours would give me a moment.
15 Q. Yes. You said that Naser Oric was wounded in the leg and it was
16 difficult for him to move around. Do you know if he was able to drive a
17 car after he sustained that wound?
18 A. Naser Oric was brought to hospital. I was in the hospital when he
19 was brought in. They dressed his wound, gave him first aid, and took him
20 away because there was no room in the hospital, only people who had been
21 very seriously wounded were kept in the hospital. He couldn't move about,
22 but in comparison with the other wounded his wound was not
23 life-threatening and the situation in the hospital was so bad there
24 weren't enough beds. There were wounded lying in the corridors, on the
25 staircases; you could hardly move about the hospital for the wounded.
1 Q. Yes. Did you actually ever see Naser Oric driving a car in
2 Srebrenica? That's what I wanted to ask you about.
3 A. No, very rarely did I see Naser Oric in Srebrenica at all,
4 especially driving a car, no. No, the answer is no.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. JONES: I've finished with that exhibit.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, two things on this. Number 1 is the first of
8 the two certificates, in other words the one which purports to be the
9 translation of the 2nd August certificate -- in the English translation,
10 confirming that Oric (Dzemal) Naset. That should be should be "Naser,"
11 not "Naset."
12 MR. JONES: Yes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: We are correcting that. I suppose there is no
14 objection on the part of the Prosecution.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a typing error. And secondly, all this will
17 become, Madam Registrar, D20.1 -- 220.1, as it is, all documents, all
18 right? Yes. Thank you. Yes. So we have dealt actually did that
19 incorporate 219 as well before, Mr. Jones? Or not.
20 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, I haven't dealt with D219 and I
21 propose to tender a revised translation of that exhibit as well which I
22 think has been passed up.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Because it's included in the documents
24 that you have circulated.
25 MR. JONES: Yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's leave everything as D220.1, all right? Yes.
2 MR. JONES: Thank you. And then for the revised translation of
3 D219 I suppose that would be D219.1 or you're putting the two together.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm leaving everything as D220.1.
5 MR. JONES: That's fine, Your Honour.
6 Q. Now, returning to the War Presidency document, D573 I want to go
7 now to the entry for the 16th of March 1993, so we are still progressing
8 chronologically. And I'll just read into the record, "The aggressor
9 occupied the Konjevic Polje area and torched villages in the region. The
10 population withdrew towards Srebrenica, shelled by the enemy along the
11 entire route to Srebrenica. Over 100 civilians killed and wounded.
12 Fighting continued in the Kragljivoda area and an attempted infantry
13 penetration into the Potocari sector." Now, are you familiar with the
14 events described in this entry?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I want you to -- bearing that entry in mind -- now look -- if the
17 witness could be shown D424, please. And this is a document of the
18 command of the Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade dated 16 March 1993, signed
19 for the commander, Major Vinko Pandurevic. And I'm just going to read
20 paragraphs 1 to 3. "After the Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade units
21 reached the Kravica sector, the Bratunac Light infantry Brigade units
22 advanced along the Glogova, Planina mountain, Kravica axis. And the 2nd
23 Birac Light Infantry Brigade along the Nova Kasaba, Pobrdje, Hajducko,
24 Globlje axis. The enemy withdrew deeper towards Srebrenica and, unable to
25 offer substantial resistance, fled, leaving heavy weapons behind. After
1 yesterday's flight, our units -- fight, our units reached," and then
2 various points are mentioned.
3 "Two, the units of the Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade carried out
4 their task as set by the order of the corps command, strictly confidential
5 number" - the number follows - "and reached the Lolici, Sandici, Doljani,
6 Vis line to the west of the church in Kravica village, which is now being
7 held by 2nd Infantry Battalion."
8 "Three the new zone of responsibility along the line of Lolici,
9 Sandici, Dolje Bezameni [phoen], Vis, to the west of the church in Kravica
10 village, the 2nd PB has the task to fortify the line reached and
11 persistently defend it."
12 I want to ask you, where are those villages, Sandici and Lolici,
13 in what area?
14 A. Sandici and Lolici are located between Konjevic Polje and Kravica.
15 Sandici is adjacent to Kravica and Lolici follows right behind it. Those
16 are hamlets.
17 Q. All right. We've seen this document is dated 16th March 1993,
18 like the entry we saw in the War Presidency document. Does this
19 information confirm or not the entry which we saw in the War Presidency
20 document about combat activities in the Konjevic Polje area?
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are not receiving
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they do confirm it.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's clear this first. I thank you,
1 Madam Vidovic, for bringing that to my attention. Are you receiving
2 interpretation now, Ms. Vidovic?
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And I heard the witness answering your
5 question, so I just want to make sure that he was receiving interpretation
6 at all times while the question was being put by Mr. Jones. In other
7 words, that there was no interruption. If necessary, I will read out the
8 question again to you and then you can answer it again, Mr. Sacirovic.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was receiving
10 interpretation. I was able to hear it.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. I think at this point we can
13 MR. JONES: Yes, yes, thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
15 MR. JONES: In fact, I've finished with D424.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In five minutes. Is it okay? Now it's
18 All right. Mr. Jones, would you mind if we stopped here?
19 MR. JONES: That's fine.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: For a break.
21 MR. JONES: Yes, certainly that's fine.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's break for 25 minutes starting from now.
23 Thank you.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I take it that you would like to make a
2 statement, Mr. Wubben?
3 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. Meanwhile we find out more
4 information we want to convey that to you. Ms. Joanne Richardson.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben.
6 Madam Richardson.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: That you, Your Honour. I will make it fast.
8 Your Honour, we have investigated or looked into the matter of the
9 disclosure of the documents we talked about this morning. Document ERN
10 01097642 was disclosed under receipt 226 A and that was done on the 23rd
11 of September 2005. With respect to the other documents, it's my
12 understanding that these were disclosed on the EDS Oric specific
13 disclosure, which was a request from the Defence, and that was done on the
14 7th of October 2005. And that's on the EDS but specifically to the
15 Oric -- Naser Oric case, to the Defence.
16 And let me just say, Your Honour, notwithstanding our
17 information -- I'm sorry, I just was informed under the Miroslav Deronjic
18 file which was disclosed on the EDS to the Defence.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Not the Oric.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour but it was in response to the
21 Oric Defence making a specific request. Let me just say as a practical
22 matter if in the foot you are these documents -- that the Defence is
23 unable to find these documents, we have absolutely no problem if they
24 contact us and say, "We simply don't have them." We will be more than
25 happy to provide a copy to them, give it to them, you know, whatever time
1 at night in their locker. So, we can take a very practical approach to
2 this in the future. And if they contact our case manager and she's not
3 available, you know, they should contact as a matter of fact contact the
4 attorney who will be taking the matter on. And we usually are in the
5 office very late or that -- Jan Wubben who is also in the office fairly
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, you look into this matter I suppose
8 Mr. Jones. But in the meantime let's not waste more time, please. Have
9 the copies been made available in the meantime.
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, they have been provided to the
12 MR. JONES: Yes, we will revisit this theme, that there is very
13 much two sides to this story and certainly this is the information which
14 the Prosecution has provided. Apart from the fact that, obviously, we
15 will check it, we don't accept that -- that this is an accurate statement
16 of affairs. We will look into it. It's particularly important because
17 one is a prior statement allegedly of this witness, and we asked
18 specifically from the Prosecution for any prior statements of our
19 witnesses so that in particular we would be able to have them available
20 for proofing. And if it turns out that this one alleged prior statement
21 was not disclosed to us in time, so that we are started our
22 examination-in-chief without having a document which we should have been
23 provided in order to be able to proof him with it, then we would
24 absolutely object to that document being used in cross-examination.
25 The other thing is some of these documents we've now checked,
1 appear to be Prosecution exhibits but we were provided the wrong ERN
2 number. There is one ERN number which is crossed out and then another one
3 and, if we had simply been told that one is P8, apparently one is P39,
4 then we would have been able to find it. Instead, of course, we wasted a
5 lot of time looking for documents under these ERN numbers. But in any
6 event I'll reserve the bulk of my comments for another occasion.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you both. When you -- if you --
8 if you wish to make further submissions on this, Mr. Jones, of course, you
9 will be given all the opportunity. In the meantime let's move.
10 Where is the usher?
11 Yes, sorry. Madam Vidovic?
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to add
13 something to this matter because I am much more familiar with the
14 documentation than my colleague. As for the Deronjic file, yes, we have
15 received it and we received the document used yesterday, including some
16 other documents. However, we know therefore very well what we received
17 within the Deronjic file, where there was Mustafa Sacirovic's statement,
18 as well as the document we used yesterday. But there was nothing else
19 relating to Mr. Sacirovic. I told Ms. Richardson yesterday that they
20 constantly fail to provide evidence to us. They did not even provide the
21 audiotapes to us. Instead of supplying us with the material that the
22 Defence needs for their preparation, they constantly come up with excuses
23 to Your Honours. They have been constantly violating the 68 -- Rule 68
24 and 66, too, thus preventing us from preparing ourselves adequately for
25 the Defence of our client, Oric.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I will not be making any comments
2 because I haven't seen these documents as of yet. I don't even know what
3 the contents is and what they are about.
4 So let's bring the witness in and we will address this matter
5 later on, if and when necessary.
6 Yes, Mr. Jones.
7 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Mr. Sacirovic, we are going to remain a bit longer with this
9 document, D573, the War Presidency document, and review a few more
10 entries. I'm up to the 19th of March 1993 entry.
11 If you can find that, I'll read that for the record. "At 0530
12 hours, two planes dropped chemical agents over the Osatnica MZ. Infantry
13 attacks in the Kragljivoda, Osat, and Poznanovici sectors intensified with
14 artillery support from Serbia and Jezero. Shelling of the Potocari and
15 Srebrenica areas increased and there was an attempted infantry penetration
16 in the Potocari sector. Eight civilians were killed and 18 wounded."
17 Have you seen that entry?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, you've already described the situation in Potocari in the
20 days leading up to this. Was the situation in fact getting worse in this
22 A. Yes. It was simply unbearable.
23 Q. If you can keep that document with you while we go to the next
24 exhibit, which is a document of the same date, 19 March, 1993, the ERN is
25 04267595, and it's from the Drina corps command dated 19 March 1993,
1 regular combat report to the RS Army Main Staff. And we see paragraph
2 2, "Combat readiness of our forces. During the day, forces of the
3 Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade conducted activities in the following
4 directions, Kravica, Bljecevo, Pale, Lemesic, Cizmici, Bijela Stijena,
5 Zuti Most, Budak, Potocari, and Obadi, Zalazje, Likari."
6 Now, are you familiar with those place names?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are they or some of them in the Potocari area?
9 A. Bljeceva is adjacent to Potocari. Lemesic, Cizmici, are part of
10 Bljeceva. Budak is also adjacent to Potocari and Bratunac. Obadi,
11 Zalazje, Likari, are also adjacent to Potocari, to the east of Potocari.
12 Q. And were you aware of activities of the Bratunac light Infantry
13 Brigade or other Serb forces in those areas on that day?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. JONES: Can I please have an exhibit number for this document.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Jones. This document which consists
17 of two pages in B/C/S, two pages in English, being the translation, with
18 ERN 04267595 to 596 is being tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit D884.
19 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour, the next document is D351, if
20 the witness could be shown that, please. This is also 19 March 1993 from
21 the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade Command to the command of the Drina
22 Corps. And it says, "The Srebrenica operation is under way. On the
23 Glogova, Pale, Potocari axis, tasks are being carried out according to
24 plan with no particular problems." And then I move down to the reference
25 to the Zuti Most area.
1 My apologies. I'm going first to paragraph 2. "I successfully
2 resolved the problems with UNPROFOR during the day."
3 Does that -- that second paragraph, does that reflect in any way
4 on what you told us earlier about how UNPROFOR, the presence of UNPROFOR
5 in Srebrenica was exploited by the Serbs?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what's the problem, Ms. Richardson?
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, there is no problem except that this
8 is a single sentence and I don't believe, unless I'm mistaken, this
9 witness can respond to Mr. Jones's question about problems with UNPROFOR.
10 This is a very vague sentence here and I think any answer would be
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see. Let him answer first. I'm sure that if
13 he's not in a position to answer or if he doesn't know what was the nature
14 of any problems that might have existed with UNPROFOR at the time, he will
15 not volunteer an answer.
16 So let's proceed with your question, Mr. Jones.
17 MR. JONES: Yes.
18 Q. Perhaps I might put it a different way?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it would be wiser to put it, and more
20 appropriate too.
21 MR. JONES: Yes.
22 Q. Did the presence of UNPROFOR in Srebrenica in March 1993, did that
23 in any way impede the Serb advance, to your knowledge?
24 A. Yes. I can see that you cannot agree on this. However, the very
25 fact that UNPROFOR arrived in Srebrenica via Bratunac, where the Serb line
1 moved by one kilometre from Zuti Most to Srebrenica, speaks for itself,
2 indicates the fact that they used the passage of UNPROFOR and they were
3 following in their footsteps and arrived almost to Potocari because Zuti
4 Most and Potocari are very close by. So they must have been a very, very
5 close to Potocari proper, the centre of town.
6 Q. And was Potocari an important point in the defence of Srebrenica
7 or not?
8 A. Yes, absolutely. There were factories in Potocari and Potocari
9 was a very significant point, very close to Srebrenica.
10 Q. And if Potocari fell, what would have been the consequences for
11 the defence of the enclave in March 1993?
12 A. The Serbs would enter Srebrenica and probably massacre the
13 civilian population.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. JONES: I'd simply ask for an exhibit number -- sorry, that's
16 D351 so I don't need an exhibit number.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes it's already go one.
18 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Returning to the two last entries D573, the entry for 20th of
20 March 1993. "At about 0530 hours chemical agents were dropped from a
21 helicopter on Osmace. Attack on the Budak-Pale line, Potocari, Osmace and
22 Skenderovici shelled. The aggressor captured some hill near Tokoljak, 684
23 civilians, women and children, evacuated to Tuzla."
24 I would ask simply if you were able to confirm any of the events
25 mentioned in that entry.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Which in particular, if you could elaborate?
3 A. For instance, the dropping of chemical agents from helicopters, I
4 was in the hospital close to the wounded who behaved strangely. You could
5 see that they were experiencing hallucinations. They behaved strangely,
6 which was probably a result of the chemical agents. As far as the
7 evacuation of the civilians is concerned, the situation was chaotic. The
8 UNPROFOR trucks that arrived in Srebrenica evacuated the civilian
9 population. The town itself was overcrowded. There were close to 80.000
10 people within the limits of the town, and the situation was undescribable,
11 close to a catastrophe. Had the Serbs entered the town, it would have
12 been a catastrophe.
13 Q. And we go to a document again of the Drina corps of the same date,
14 20th of March, 1993. This is a new exhibit, ERN 04267599. And this is,
15 as I say, command of the Drina Corps, 20 March 1993, regular combat report
16 to the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska. And I'm going to take
17 to you paragraph 2, "level of combat readiness in our forces." "The focus
18 of activities of the 1st" and that's Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade, "was
19 on reconnaissance of the general Vitinica area pulling out the 2nd
20 Infantry Battalion from the sector of Kravica to the sector of Konjevic
21 Polje and its consolidation. Taking and controlling the territory of the
22 general area of Konjevic Polje, Lijesanj, and Glodansko Brdo, intensive
23 surveillance in order to gather information on the enemy and repel their
24 an attacks."
25 And then "In the course of the day, the 1st Bratunac Light
1 Infantry Brigade completed all preparations for attack on the Bratunac,
2 Potocari main axis, but the attack was postponed because of the arrival of
3 General Morillon."
4 And then there is a reference to the convoy which I believe you
5 referred to a moment ago in paragraph 3, where we also see, "General
6 Morillon returned to Srebrenica with his escort. He wanted to come to the
7 funeral in Kravica on Monday and meet with General Mladic."
8 And then at the end, "Decision, continue active combat activities
9 towards Srebrenica in order to force, disperse, and destroy the enemy's
10 armed formations in Srebrenica, the remaining forces are to retain their
11 present positions in a decisive defence and prevent the enemy breaking
12 through on any of the axes." And it's signed by commander
13 Colonel Milenko Zivanovic. And do you recall earlier we saw documents
14 signed by Milenko Zivanovic referring to liquidating the manpower in the
15 enclave? Do you recall that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you also recall yesterday seeing a document concerning an
18 ambush which you said was probably people of trying to get to Tuzla where
19 a wounded nurse was captured by the Serbs and killed? Do you recall that,
20 that document?
21 A. Yes. When a nurse was killed.
22 Q. Now, how do you understand this part of the document at the end
23 where it says, "Prevent the enemy breaking through on any of the axes"?
24 Do you have any insight into what was planned by the Serbs for Muslims
25 trying to escape from Srebrenica in this period?
1 A. They planned to kill all of us in the enclave without any
3 Q. And you've told us your centre for investigation of genocide in
4 Srebrenica goes back to events even in early 1992; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In this period, in March 20th 1993, or this approximate period, do
7 you see any significant difference between the dangers of what occurred in
8 July 1995, events with which we are all familiar, and the situation as it
9 was developing then?
10 A. There is no difference there. The scenario was the same. With
11 the exception of the fact that the massacre was not committed in the March
12 of 1993, but in July 1995. And I repeat, had they entered the enclave in
13 1993, the massacre would have been by far greater than in 1995, for the
14 simple reason that in 1993 there were close to 80.000 people there while
15 in 1995 there were some 40, 45.000 people.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last
17 sentence? The interpreter didn't catch it.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The interpreters did not manage to hear what
19 you said, the last part of your answer. Could you repeat it again,
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. The 1995 scenario and
22 the 1993 scenario were the same. The Serbs had the same intention, that
23 of entering the enclave and committing genocide. They had that intention
24 as early as in 1993. However, thanks to the UN forces, the genocide was
25 prevented. But was to happen two years later, on the 11th of July 1995,
1 when the Serbs managed to enter Srebrenica and commit a massacre over, I
2 believe, according to my estimates, some 8 to 10.000 people. Had they
3 entered the enclave in March 1993, they would have massacred by far more
4 people because there were close to 80.000 inhabitants at the time whereas
5 in 1995 in the Srebrenica enclave there were some 40.000-odd people. The
6 fact that this area was a confounded one, was a very narrow one, the
7 civilians were surrounded from all sides, shows that it was much easier
8 for them to commit genocide.
9 MR. JONES: All right. Thank you. Could I have an exhibit
10 number, please, for this document.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this document which consists of two pages in
12 B/C/S and three in English with ERN 04267599, to 600, is being tendered
13 and marked as Defence Exhibit D885.
14 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. I want to skip forward a bit
15 and ask if the witness could be shown D229.
16 Q. Now, this -- yes. I was just thinking, Your Honour, perhaps this
17 should be in private session?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you. If you don't think there has been
19 one instance where I have refused such a request. So let's go into
20 private session for a while, please.
21 [Private session]
11 Page 13405 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 13406 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 13407 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, yes.
9 MR. JONES: All right, thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. I think I can say, finally, if we could look at the entry of the
11 21st of March 1993, on D573, "The entire free territory of Srebrenica and
12 the town itself were shelled, infantry fighting in the Kragljivoda sector
13 and the fall of Kragljivoda. Infantry fighting in the Poznanovici and
14 Osmace area, ten civilians killed, 30 wounded. Morillon is in Tuzla and
15 then going to Belgrade."
16 Have you found and seen that entry?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, this I'm focusing on this date the 21st of March 1993 because
19 it's an important one. Can you confirm or not that this was a
20 particularly dire day, the 21st of March?
21 A. Yes. A very dire day for the inhabitants of Srebrenica.
22 Q. And we have a document of the same date from the Drina corps
23 command, 04267603. Would you say -- well, I'll wait until you have the
24 document. Would you go so far to say it was a question of life and death
25 on that particular day or would you not go that far?
1 A. Well, let me tell you, it was a question of the survival of the
2 Muslims in that area. We are talking about 80.000 inhabitants. It was a
3 critical day for the survival of that population.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, in this document, Drina Corps Command 21 March
5 1993, we have a regular combat report to the Main Staff of the RS army.
6 First, enemy in the zone of responsibility -- my apologies, it's actually
7 paragraph 2, "combat readiness of our forces." "During the day forces of
8 the VRLPBR, the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, were actively engaged
9 along the Budak, Pecista, Potocari, Bljeceva, Pale, Radonjici, Zalik
10 frontline and targeted Lupoglava with artillery fire."
11 Now, are you familiar with Budak and Pecista?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are they or are they not in the Potocari area?
14 A. Yes. Right next to Potocari.
15 Q. Is it right that on the 21st of March 1993 there was actually an
16 infantry attack in the Potocari area?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Incidentally you've told us this was Naser Oric's area. Do you
19 know whether his family was in fact living in Potocari on that date or at
20 that time?
21 A. Yes. His mother, his father, his brother, and many other family
22 members were living there. He was born there and his entire family was
23 living in Potocari.
24 Q. Thank you, yes, I'll just ask for an exhibit number for this
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this document which consists of two pages in
2 B/C/S and two pages in English, with ERN 04267063 to 604 is being tendered
3 and marked as Defence Exhibit D886.
4 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour is it.
5 Q. And then we have another document of the same date which is
6 04267605, Drina Corps Command, 21 March 1993, regular combat report to the
7 Main Staff of the RS, Republika Srpska Army. And again just under combat
8 readiness of our forces, paragraph 2, "During the day, forces of the
9 Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade were actively engaged along the entire
10 frontline on the Jezestica, Vresinje, Stolice, Bljeceva, Zagoni, Borici,
11 Dzogazi, Caus, Obadi, Ljuljaska, Pirici, Gornji Sikiric [as read], Orascic
12 line of contact."
13 Now, do you see that there? The forces were engaged --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was the entire frontline, as it states here, being attacked on
16 that day by the Serbs, on the 21st of March 1993?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. JONES: Could I have an exhibit number for this document,
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, there document which also consists of two pages
21 in B/C/S and two pages being the corresponding translation thereof into
22 English is -- with ERN 04267605 to 606 is being tendered and marked as
23 Defence Exhibit D887.
24 MR. JONES: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I'm now moving to a
25 different area altogether so we are finished with D573 as well.
1 Q. Now, Mr. Sacirovic, in 1992, 1993, did you ever hear mention of
2 the idea of a subregion being formed?
3 A. In late 1992, there was discussion of the establishment of a
4 subregion in the area.
5 Q. All right. And do you know who, if anyone, was putting forward
6 that idea?
7 A. This was the idea of one of the most influential politicians at
8 the time, Hamed Salihovic. He wanted some kind of political organisation
9 to function there. However, this never actually did manage to start
11 Q. You say the idea was some kind of political organisation. Was it
12 a political or a military or some other type of idea?
13 A. It was an exclusively political organisation.
14 Q. And do you know what if anything Hamed Salihovic did in order to
15 try to bring his idea into realisation?
16 A. He tried to unify that political body. He wanted something to be
17 done, but this was not successful due to the circumstances in which the
18 inhabitants of the area were living. There was no chance because of the
19 wartime situation, the shelling, people being killed all over the place.
20 So this was simply an idea. But it was a goal that was never actually
22 Q. During what period was Hamed Salihovic to your knowledge working
23 on this idea?
24 A. This was in late 1992 and early 1993, and all the way up to the
25 demilitarisation of Srebrenica. However, I repeat, he did not succeed in
1 establishing the subregion. The political activities he envisioned did
2 not begin because of the reason I have just stated, the encirclement and
3 siege of Srebrenica.
4 Q. Thank you. And finally on this subject, during the period that
5 Hamed Salihovic was working on this idea, to your knowledge, was he doing
6 any work involving a prison in Srebrenica at the same time?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you. I'm moving to a different area. I would ask if the
9 witness could please be shown P458. This is what appears to be a diary.
10 Now firstly, can I ask, do you know someone called Avdo Huseinovic?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now, I would ask if you could look at a couple of pages of this
13 document. In fact, I'm going to start with the later page. It's page 7
14 in English and in B/C/S is 03593132. And it's concerning 6/12, 1992. And
15 it should be a page which, in English anyway, the words appear, "Mustafa
16 Sacirovic born 1 April 1953 in Hranca, residing in Srebrenica Robna Kuca
17 number six." Do you see those words?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you in fact reside at any stage in the Robna Kuca, number 6?
20 A. No. I didn't live at the address Robna Kuca number 6. I lived in
21 the Rudarske Zgrade above the Bosna cinema. It's a little way away from
22 Robna Kuca.
23 Q. Could you tell us what the Robna Kuca is, in fact?
24 A. Robna Kuca was a department store. That's what the words Robna
25 Kuca mean. It was a general goods store.
1 Q. All right. According to this, Mustafa Sacirovic filed a report
2 against Mahmut Jugovic in relation to the theft of a number of items, one
3 is 4 by 4 metres of fitted carpet. Did you ever file a report against
4 someone for stealing some of your carpet?
5 A. No.
6 Q. It also says here "he has a card signed by Naser authorising him
7 to bring in suspects." Did you ever have a card signed by Naser
8 authorising you to bring in suspects?
9 A. No. Naser was not my superior. My superior was the president of
10 the War Presidency, Mr. Hajrudin Avdic. I was never under Naser's
12 Q. Did you actually have a fitted carpet when you were in Srebrenica?
13 A. No. Where would I get a carpet? I was a refugee. I had nothing.
14 Q. Do the events here, a criminal reports filed for stealing a piece
15 of carpet sound realistic in Srebrenica in December 1992 when you said
16 people were starving and being killed by shells?
17 A. No. This is unrealistic. I don't know what this is. This is the
18 first time I've seen anything like this.
19 Q. Actually while I'm on this diary, was there ever a curfew which
20 was enforced in Srebrenica, that is an order which meant that people had
21 to be indoors after a certain hour?
22 A. No. It was simply impossible.
23 Q. Then just still on this document, if we go to page 35 in English
24 and in B/C/S it's going to be the page ending in 3130, relating to the 5th
25 of December 1992, we see the same name that we saw a moment ago, Mahmut
1 Jugovic, and then it says "At around 1130 hours, on 5 December 1992, Mule"
2 or Mjul, "who was under the influence asked for two litres of brandy for
3 100 DM until the morning, saying he would bring six kilogrammes of grain."
4 Leaving the rest of it to one side, do you have a nickname, and if
5 so, what is it?
6 A. Well, you know what? People did call me Mule but I wasn't the
7 only Mule in Srebrenica. There were as many Mules as you like there. I
8 don't know what this is all about.
9 Q. Do you drink alcohol?
10 A. No. I don't drink alcohol, no, no.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, could you put on the ELMO, please, the next
12 page where we have a continuation of this entry number 7 of the 5th of
13 December 1992? Yes. You need to move it a little -- yes. That's --
14 that's perfect. Thank you.
15 MR. JONES:
16 Q. Yes, in fact I've finished with this document unless there is
17 anything which Your Honours wish to raise.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps he can confirm at this stage while we are at
19 this, Mr. Jones, if he was ever interviewed by one or two policemen on
20 this incident that appears on this page.
21 MR. JONES:
22 Q. Yes, perhaps you can answer that.
23 A. Your Honour --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And whether he was at any time during this period,
25 ever taken to the military police headquarters, interviewed there, and
1 subsequently released. I mean, I think we have a statement on him from
2 this would give us a better idea on what to deal with, how to deal with
3 this part of the diary.
4 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed, Your Honour, I'll let the witness answer.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was never brought in
6 by any police in Srebrenica, and this document is completely unfamiliar to
7 me, but this is not about me.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
9 MR. JONES: Finally --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that explains everything especially since he
11 said there were several other Mules in Srebrenica at the time.
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I certainly do have an
13 application to make outside the presence of the witness, at some point
14 regarding there specific area of the document because it seems as though
15 there is a misinterpretation or there are two ways of reading the
16 information listed here, that it's not this witness that was brought in
17 but was the other individual. So, thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
19 MR. JONES: I'd like to pursue that, then in that case because I
20 thought I'd made it clear.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones, you're free to do so.
22 MR. JONES:
23 Q. Mr. Sacirovic, on this entry with which we just looked at it
24 refers, does it not, to Mahmut Jugovic at the top. Do you see that, 5
25 December 1992, Mahmut Jugovic. You see that named, Mahmut Jugovic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In fact, do you know him?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you agree that that name, Mahmut Jugovic, which we see under 5
5 December 1992 in the same entry which talks about Mule is -- also appears
6 under the 6th of December 1992 where we saw your name, Mustafa Sacirovic,
7 and then we see again a reference to Mahmut Jugovic? Do you agree with
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that Mahmut Jugovic, according to both entries, resided in
11 Srebrenica, Robna Kuca number 8?
12 A. I don't know whether he did or not. I don't know the man and I
13 have no idea where he resided.
14 Q. All right. Thank you.
15 MR. JONES: As far as submissions on this subject is concerned we
16 can do it at some other stage, obviously without the witness.
17 Q. Now, we are dealing with just a few more documents. The next one
18 is 02075798. Sokolac collection. And it's addressed to the OS Armed
19 Forces Operations Staff Srebrenica. It says "report submitted by Mustafa
20 Sacirovic, Mule." I'll let you have a look at that.
21 Now, I've given you an opportunity to look at that document. But
22 this purports to be a report submitted by Mustafa Sacirovic, Mule, to the
23 operations staff Srebrenica. Did you -- did you ever send reports to the
24 operations staff Srebrenica?
25 A. No. The only reports I made went to Mr. Hajrudin Avdic, the
1 president of the War Presidency. I worked for no one else, nor did I
2 submit reports to anyone else or any other group.
3 Q. And there is a signature here. Do you recognise that as being
4 your signature or not?
5 A. This signature resembles my signature to some extent, but this is
6 not a document I drew up and signed.
7 Q. I'd ask you to look at all the places which are named in this
8 document. It's a report on a field inspection from the 27th of October to
9 the 1st of November, and a large number of places are mentioned. I won't
10 read them all because you can see them. But I'll just ask you this. Was
11 it possible in October --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Yes. Was it possible in late October 1992, to visit all the
14 places referred to in this document in three days, given the conditions at
15 the time in the enclave?
16 A. No. I don't believe it was possible because these were all
17 peripheral areas exposed to shelling and attacks. I don't think anyone
18 could have visited all these places in such a brief space of time.
19 Q. At the end of this document we see the words in B/C/S [B/C/S
20 spoken]. Do you see those two words?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is the word [B/C/S spoken] written in the Ekavian or in the
23 Ijekavian dialect?
24 A. This is in the Ekavica dialect. There was written by someone who
25 is illiterate and who is mixing up the two dialects. Ekavski and
2 Q. Who uses the Ekavian dialect, Serbs or Muslims?
3 A. The Ekavian dialect is used mostly by Serbs. Muslims mostly speak
4 the Ijekavian dialect.
5 Q. Thank you. I'd ask for an exhibit number for this document,
7 JUDGE AGIUS: This document which consists of two pages, one
8 B/C/S, one in English, with ERN 02075798 is being tendered and received
9 and marked as Defence Exhibit D888.
10 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. Next document is -- the ERN
11 is 01838912, and it purports to be from the Republic of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, department of the unified RBH veterans organisation,
13 Bratunac union of veterans, Srebrenica, 13 July 1994.
14 Q. If you see at the end, it's purportedly signed by Mustafa
15 Sacirovic on behalf of that union. Now, is that your signature on this
17 A. Just like the previous signature, this signature resembles mine.
18 However, I did not compile this document and this is the first time I've
19 heard of this association, this organisation. It's something I'm not
20 familiar with.
21 Q. Was there in fact to your knowledge a veterans association formed
22 during the war in 1994?
23 A. I'm not aware of it. I tell you it's the first time I've heard of
24 this veterans association. As far as I know, the veterans organised only
25 after the end of the war. That's when these veterans organisations
1 emerged, as they did everywhere in the world after wars. And this
2 document is completely unfamiliar to me.
3 Q. Was Naser Oric, who is referred to in this document as "our
4 commander," was he ever a commander of forces from Bratunac?
5 A. No.
6 Q. This document also refers at one point to the following. It
7 says: "It might be useful to mention that we liquidated more than 2.500
8 aggressor soldiers and put out of action even more."
9 Now, did you ever hear when you were in Srebrenica the figure of
10 2.500 Serbian soldiers being killed, apart from by Serbs?
11 A. No. It's the first time I heard of such a thing.
12 Q. Again we see here if you go to line 3 in the Bosnian, the word
13 [B/C/S spoken]. I don't know if you see that, three lines down and it's
14 the second word from the end, and then two lines down from there, deo,
15 d-e-o, [B/C/S spoken], again are these words in the Ekavian dialect or in
16 the Ijekavian dialect?
17 A. These words are in the Ekavian dialect and I see again that these
18 two dialects, the Ekavian and Ijekavian, are being mixed up in this
20 Q. Do you accept the possibility that this document was written by
21 Serbs using their Ekavian dialect?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That is speculative, Mr. Jones. I would skip it and
23 move to the next question.
24 MR. JONES: Fine, Your Honour.
25 Q. We see towards the end of this document the words, "We do not want
1 to be a minority among the Serbs or the Muslims." Do you see that? It's
2 three lines from the bottom in Bosnian. Does that make any sense to you,
3 that sentence?
4 A. It doesn't make any sense. I have no idea what it means.
5 Q. Thank you, yes.
6 MR. JONES: I'll ask for an exhibit number for this document.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document which consists of one page in B/C/S
8 with ERN 01838912 and the corresponding translation thereof into English
9 on two pages, together they are being entered into the records of the case
10 marked as Defence Exhibit D889. Of course, the English one will become
12 MR. JONES: Thank you, we just have a few more documents. Now,
13 the next document is dated 7 November 1996 from the Republika Srpska
14 Ministry of the Interior, public security centre, Zvornik, and it's
15 addressed to the district public Prosecutor Zvornik, "subject: Mustafa
16 Sacirovic, supplement to criminal reports," and we go down to the bottom
17 and it says, "Mustafa Sacirovic, a.k.a. Mule, son of Vahid and Fata," and
18 then has personal details. And then, "After the liberation of Srebrenica
19 in July 1995, the crime investigators of the Srebrenica SJB found written
20 evidence at the Domavija hotel in Srebrenica which show that Sacirovic
21 participated in the operations in the village of Zagoni, Magasici, and
22 Kravica, where civilians were killed and buildings and other installations
23 torched. Specifically as they were leaving Srebrenica the Muslim
24 authorities left behind, forgot, some documents at the aforementioned
25 hotel including among other things several certificates," et cetera.
1 Now, did you in fact participate in operations in the villages of
2 Zagoni, Magasici, and Kravica in 1992 and early 1993?
3 A. No. Absolutely not. I worked for the War Presidency of
4 Srebrenica municipality and I did not belong to a single armed group in
5 the territory of Srebrenica municipality. This -- let's call it a
6 criminal report. I see it for the first time and I suppose that the Serbs
7 having found all the documents that I worked on in Srebrenica, are
8 attempting to demean the work that I carried out in my search for the
9 truth and to discredit all the documentation that I worked on as an
10 investigator of the war crimes in the area. This is absolutely untrue. I
11 categorically state that I did not belong to a single armed formation or
12 rather armed group, not a single action. I never went out to combat.
13 Q. Thank you. In fact, you answered my next question as to why these
14 reports might have been made.
15 MR. JONES: I would ask for an exhibit number for this document
16 and then we have three documents which can be one exhibit.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. There document, which consists of one page in
18 B/C/S, with ERN -- I'm not -- it doesn't have an ERN.
19 MR. JONES: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And the corresponding translation thereof into
21 English is being entered into the records as marked as Defence Exhibit
22 D890. For the record, this document carries reference number of 13/02-230
23 and the date of 7th November 1996.
24 MR. JONES: Thank you. Yes and we have these three more
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And just so it's clear, Mr. Sacirovic, I'm simply asking for your
2 comments on these documents. I don't suggest for a minute that there is
3 anything in them. I hope that's clear.
4 Now, the first document is the number is RR146576. And it's dated
5 the 15th of May 1993. And we can take this quite briefly. According to
6 this, Smajo Mandzic is providing a certificate that you participated in
7 the operation against Zagoni on 5th July 1993. Is that true or not?
8 A. No, that's not true.
9 Q. Did you ask for a certificate of this nature?
10 A. No. Why would I? I have no need for that. I never asked for any
11 such certificate and, I repeat, I did not belong to a single armed group
12 in Srebrenica.
13 Q. Thank you. And I can show you the next document which is
14 RR146576. And this is dated 15th of May 1993. And again it's Smajo
15 Mandzic confirming that Mustafa Sacirovic took part in operations against
16 Magasici. Again did you participate in such an operation and did you ask
17 for such a certificate?
18 A. No. Again, this is an illustration of the attempts by the Serb to
19 discredit me as a person.
20 Q. Thank you. Then the next document which is RR146578 appears to be
21 from the 15th of May 1993. Again, firstly, do you agree that apparently
22 on the same day, Smajo Mandzic and Ejub Golic are issuing certificates in
23 relation to you?
24 A. First of all, I have no idea as to who was issuing these
25 certificates, when and where, nor did I need any such certificates. I
1 reiterate that I did not belong to any armed group in Srebrenica. I
2 wonder what this is about. I wonder that no charges were brought against
3 me for some alleged crimes that I committed in Srebrenica. You can verify
4 my statement with all the survivors that I never participated in any such
5 activities. And you can really investigate into this because this is an
6 attack against me as a person and the work that I did. I am proud of what
7 I did. These are pure fabrications.
8 Q. Thank you. That's very clear and that's very helpful. In fact,
9 it even says here that you were slightly wound in Kravica. Were you ever
10 wounded during the war?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And if these last two documents were authentic, both Ejub Golic
13 and Smajo Mandzic would have been busy signing certificates for you on the
14 same day, would they not?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I suppose you don't need to put that question
16 to the witness.
17 MR. JONES: Okay, that's fine.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones.
19 MR. JONES: And exhibit number, please, yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. These documents, separately marked as
21 RR146576, RR146577, RR146578, each consisting of just one page and each
22 accompanied with a corresponding translation thereof into English is
23 being -- are being tendered as one document and marked as Defence Exhibit
25 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. We are on to the last two
2 Q. The next exhibit is also RR146585. And this is allegedly from the
3 armed forces of Vlasenica, Cerska command. This is one day later, 16 May,
4 1993. Certificate allegedly signed by Semso Salihovic confirming that
5 combatant Mustafa Sacirovic participated in mopping up the terrain at
6 those places on the 8th of February 1993. Again, is this -- is this true?
7 Is this a certificate you asked for? Or is it something else?
8 A. I never asked for it, nor is it true. At the time, I was in the
9 war hospital in Srebrenica collecting information from the wounded. I
10 really cannot account for this at all. I reiterate that I did not belong
11 to any armed group in Srebrenica.
12 Q. According to this, according to the documents we've seen you would
13 have been under Commander Smajo Mandzic, under Commander Ejub Golic, under
14 Commander Semso Salihovic, under Cerska command, under Glogova Battalion,
15 and elsewhere. That would have to be true, wouldn't it, if these
16 documents were authentic?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson?
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Just briefly before the witness answers the
19 question, I think counsel is reading into the document further than he
20 needs it to. It's just that it's signed by a particular person, not
21 necessarily that if Mr. Sacirovic had asked for the certificate that he
22 would be under them, and I just think it's a stretch to now say that he
23 would be under each person that purportedly signed a certificate for them.
24 I think the witness has already testified that he never asked for the
25 certificate. I don't think the question is necessary.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: You may be right up to a certain point,
2 Ms. Richardson. On the other hand it does appear from the face of these
3 four documents that they are signed incidently by three separate
4 commanders. So at the end, why would a commander sign this document and
5 not some officer in some office, say, such as the records office or
6 whatever? I think -- I think that's -- I do understand your objection,
8 MR. JONES: That's fine. That's --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you can actually skip the question,
10 Mr. Jones, because basically it becomes a matter of argumentation later on
11 as to what this means and ultimately it's a question of credibility or
12 probative value that we need to attach or not to attach to these four
14 MR. JONES: Precisely, thank you, Your Honour. I don't know if
15 the last one has an exhibit number yet.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it hasn't as yet. But before you do, is -- I
17 would like to ask the witness whether he is familiar with the signatures
18 of any of the following, Semso Salihovic, Smajo Mandzic, and Ejub Golic?
19 Have you ever seen the signatures of these persons?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am not familiar with
21 their signatures. I never saw them.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. This document which consists of two
23 pages, one B/C/S, with ERN number RR146585 and the next being the
24 corresponding translation into English thereof is being tendered and
25 marked as Defence Exhibit D892.
1 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Now, finally, Mr. Sacirovic, how long did you continue to work in
3 Srebrenica collecting information about war crimes and about victims of
4 war crimes, doing the work for your commission? For what period?
5 A. I worked for the entire duration of my stay in Srebrenica except
6 for 1994 where I was secretary of the War Presidency of Bratunac
7 Municipality, although even during that period I worked on and off, and
8 then this was the period of 12 months when I was a secretary. Then I
9 continued working for the commission until the year 2000 when I moved to
10 the United States. After the fall of Srebrenica, I joined the commission
11 for the gathering of facts about war crimes in Sarajevo. That was where I
12 continued with my work, and even today I am working on matters relating to
13 war crimes.
14 Q. And actually I think you've told us already but you were
15 submitting reports to the War Presidency during the war?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And I think you've also told us that you have reason to believe
18 that some of those reports were actually left in Srebrenica when
19 Srebrenica fell and possibly discovered by the Serbs. Is that correct,
20 you have that suspicion?
21 A. Probably. There can be seen from their documents because all the
22 collected documentation, video footages, and all the other documents
23 related to war crimes including my reports which I had been submitting to
24 the president of the War Presidency, Hajrudin Avdic, were probably found.
25 Q. Yes. And, finally, I think you've also told us at the outset that
1 you delivered material to the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal
2 concerning Glogova, ethnic cleansing of Muslims and the situation in
3 Srebrenica going back to July 2000.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And before I present the last exhibit on that subject, just a
6 correction to the transcript. I believe you said that the documents --
7 you stated your reports were probably found by the Serbs, is that correct?
8 That's what you said.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You explain that as the possible motive for why documents might
11 have been forged, to implicate you in crimes; is that correct?
12 A. This is the main reason why my work should be discredited,
13 belittled, and in order to detract from the value of the documents that I
14 discovered on -- in my search for the truth. But none of the matters
15 contained in my reports were exaggerated. I was only dealing with facts.
16 Q. All right. Thank you. And the last exhibit has an ERN number
17 01025178. If that could be shown to the witness.
18 Q. And it has your name at the top, and then the Tribunal. "Minutes
19 on handover of documentation related to war crimes committed in
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war in 1992 to 1995. On 29 July 2000 in the
21 premises of CSB Tuzla, handover of the documentation was carried out
22 between Mustafa Sacirovic and Mr. Valerio Geps Aquila, investigator from
23 The Hague. Mustafa Sacirovic handed over the following documentation,"
24 and then there is a list and then there are signatures at the end for
25 yourself and for the Tribunal. Is that correct? Is that your signature
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you indeed hand over all the material cited here to the
4 Prosecution more than five years ago, in July 2000?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. JONES: I'd ask for an exhibit number, please.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this document which consists of one pages in
9 B/C/S -- one page in B/C/S and two in English and with ERN 01025178 is
10 being tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit D893.
11 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Jones.
13 Mr. Sacirovic, Mr. Jones has finished with his
14 examination-in-chief, which means we will now start with the
15 cross-examination. Your responsibility pursuant to your solemn
16 declaration that you made yesterday is to answer the questions that
17 Ms. Richardson will be putting to you in the same honest manner and
18 truthful manner in which you have answered the questions put to you by the
20 In other words, you have no right to draw a distinction between
21 when you're being asked questions by the Defence and when you are being
22 asked questions by the Prosecution simply because you happen to be a
23 Defence witness. Your responsibility is to answer all questions
24 truthfully and to the best of your ability and knowledge.
25 Now, Ms. Richardson, would you like to start now or do you prefer
1 to have the break now and start and continue after the break?
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, it's perhaps best to take the break
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought would you prefer that actually that's why
5 I ask you.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have a 25-minute break starting from now and
8 continue after.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson. [Microphone not activated] One
12 hour less five minutes and then you will earn the gratitude of the Trial
13 Chamber if you manage to finish your cross-examination by the end of
15 MS. RICHARDSON: I'll keep that in mind, Your Honour, and I will
16 do -- try my utmost to do that, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, thank you, thank you.
18 Cross-examined by Ms. Richardson:
19 MS. RICHARDSON:
20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sacirovic. My name is Joanne Richardson and
21 as Your Honour indicated I am a member of the Prosecution team, and I will
22 have a series of questions for you. And the purpose of my questions are
23 to elicit from you information -- some more information about what you've
24 already given upon questioning by Mr. Jones. And if I ask anything that
25 you do not understand, please say so and I will rephrase it. If I
1 mispronounce a name which I invariably never fail to do, please indicate
2 that you don't understand which name or the village or the individual that
3 I am seeking information about and I can gladly rephrase it as best I can.
4 First off, I would like to ask you about your background. I know
5 you indicated for us that you had started your investigative work with
6 respect to collecting information on war crimes involving Muslims and
7 we'll get to that in a moment. But I'd ask -- I'd like to ask you if,
8 prior to the war, if you served your mandatory JNA service.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Would you tell us when you -- you served your service, and what
11 your area of specialty or what training did you receive during that period
12 of time?
13 A. I served in 1973 at Pijonez [phoen] in the Tito's Guard. I was a
14 member of the Tito's Guard.
15 Q. And what kind of training did you receive during that time?
16 A. You stand in solemn review. Whenever there were high foreign
17 delegations arriving to Brioni we would be standing there greeting these
18 delegations arriving.
19 Q. And I take it that you were also trained in use of weapons, basic
20 artillery training?
21 A. That's an obligation of every soldier.
22 Q. Okay. So could you tell us what type of weapons you were trained
23 on using?
24 A. Use of side arms, therefore pistols and rifles. That's the only
25 thing I know about.
1 Q. Were you ever in the reserve police at any point prior to the war?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And I take it you were never a police officer either.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, I'd like to talk to you about the reports that you compiled
6 during 1992 to 1993. First off, I'd like you to explain the procedure
7 itself of your compiling the information, and let's begin with 1992.
8 Specifically in May when it was, I believe, you testified that the
9 conflict broke out, you were living in Hranca and there were a number of
10 killings of Muslims, and you began documenting, writing down, the
11 information. Did you save the information that you collected at that
13 A. First of all, you made a mistake. I did not live in Hranca. I
14 lived in Glogova. Secondly, I gathered information from survivors,
15 eyewitnesses, and I started writing about the 3rd of May, the events in
16 Hranca. Those were the first war crimes committed in the municipality of
17 Bratunac. That was the 3rd of May 1992, and then on the 9th of May, in
18 Glogova, that was when I started writing. I was born in Hranca. However,
19 my mother had a house in Glogova and we stayed there.
20 Q. Thank you for that correction. Now, with respect to the
21 information you collected on the Glogova attack in May, was this
22 information that you yourself had observed or did you later on talk to
23 people and proceeded that way to compile the reports?
24 A. Based on the information I, first of all, myself experienced and
25 then on the basis of the information that I collected from other
1 eyewitnesses, survivors of these events.
2 Q. And with respect to the Glogova attack, how many witnesses did you
3 speak to to compile those reports?
4 A. I spoke to many of them. I will mention one or perhaps two of
5 them who were important. Two persons who survived mass execution in
6 Glogova, Djafaticovo Kuthaus [phoen], Ibrahim Dervisevic, and Mustafa
7 Golic, who was detained in the Vuk Karadzic primary school but managed
8 somehow to escape the Arkan's men.
9 Q. And when was it that you spoke to them? Was it in the month of
10 May or later on?
11 A. I spoke to Mustafa in May in Bljeceva, whereas with Ibrahim I
12 spoke several days later after he managed to escape the firing squad near
13 to a river there. They were lined up, but he fell into the river and
14 managed to survive by feigning death. Having heard about Ibrahim's
15 miraculous survival I collected this information. This documentation that
16 I submitted remained behind in Srebrenica and that was why in 1998 or in
17 1999 I again interviewed Ibrahim and I took an audio statement from him
18 after the fall of Srebrenica, both from Mr. Ibrahim Dervisevic and
19 Mr. Golic. This was because all the documentation stayed behind in the
20 municipal building in Srebrenica. In order for me to substantiate my
21 reports, I had to interview these survivors again.
22 Q. And, now, you said you interviewed Mr. Golic in Bljeceva, and
23 where was it that you interviewed Mr. Ibrahim Dervisevic?
24 A. Also in Bljeceva, while they were still there in Srebrenica,
25 whereas after the fall of Srebrenica, I spoke both to Ibrahim and Mustafa
1 in Tuzla. All of these -- all this information is documented somewhere,
2 the dates of the statement taking and so on. I managed to take their
3 statements about their survival once again.
4 Q. And you took these statements, did you write them down? Was that
5 how you proceeded to take it? Or was it done via audiotape? Maybe I
6 should specify. The very first statements you took from these two
8 A. I was not able to record or -- and make either audio or video
9 recordings of the first statements. I would write them down. Later on I
10 used my dictaphone, normally used by a journalists, to record their
12 Q. Okay. So that we are clear in the very beginning, in May, you
13 wrote them down and then later on, when you took a second statement, it
14 was then that you videotaped or you audiotaped the information you took
15 from them? Would that be correct?
16 A. Only audio tapes. There were no videotapes.
17 Q. And when did you take the audiotapes, do you remember? And where
18 were you? And when I say where were you, was this done in Srebrenica?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: He said already in Tuzla. He already said that he
20 did it in Tuzla.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are trying to confuse me. But I
22 did indicate to you that I took their written statements in May 1992 in
23 the general area of Srebrenica. I believe it was in Bljeceva. You seem
24 to be provoking me, whereas I audiotaped those statements in the territory
25 of the Tuzla canton which can be checked out in the documentation
1 contained here in the Tribunal, and in my own documentation of the
3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Richardson. One moment.
4 Ms. Richardson is not provoking you in the least, Mr. Sacirovic.
5 Ms. Richardson, here, has a very important responsibility that she must
6 perform and --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: And the Trial Chamber will protect her as we go
9 along if you become antagonistic to her.
10 Now, you haven't answered the question as regards the date. When
11 did you audio record the interview with these two persons in Tuzla? What
12 year would that be? And if you can also tell us the month, maybe that
13 would even be better.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assure you that I cannot remember
15 the month itself. My head is full of all these documents and information.
16 I wish to apologise because it was not my intention to offend the
17 Prosecutor. I may have misspoken because she put some of these additional
18 questions to me.
19 I interviewed Mr. Dervisevic and the other gentleman sometime in
20 1998 or 1999. I know that it was in the period after the fall of
21 Srebrenica. There is evidence to that effect which could be produced at
22 any time. Nothing was fabricated. After all, I did hand the
23 documentation over to your investigators.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Sacirovic, with respect to other statements that you took and
2 this time I'm specifically referring to statements that you took before
3 the fall of Srebrenica. So we are talking about 1992 and perhaps 1993.
4 First off, in 1992, once you went to Srebrenica, do you recall how many
5 people you interviewed in, let's say, the month of June and July?
6 A. In June and July of 1992?
7 Q. 1992.
8 A. I spoke to several dozen of them, of victims who survived.
9 Q. And how was it that -- well, I'll rephrase the question. Did
10 people come to you, just as a general matter in 1992 and 1993, to give
11 their statements about what had happened in their particular village?
12 A. Sometimes I would go out into the field and take statements.
13 Sometimes people would come to me or if I would hear of a certain person
14 coming to Srebrenica I would go to see the person and take the statement.
15 Whenever a need arose I would go out into the field or I would sort out
16 documentation and hand it over to the president of the War Presidency. It
17 was only in late 1992 and early 1993 that I spent all the time in the
18 hospital with the wounded, and I would only go to the municipal building
19 to obtain some information.
20 Q. In your taking the statements, let's first concentrate on when you
21 were in Srebrenica itself, we are going to talk about the investigation
22 into the statements you took in the field. In Srebrenica itself, could
23 you tell us whether or not you took the statements down first in
24 handwriting or were they typed up? Could you tell us the procedure? Was
25 the witness shown the statement later on to confirm this is what he or she
1 had said to you? If you could just elaborate on the procedure itself for
2 us, please.
3 A. I put these statements on paper in my own hand for the most part.
4 We would use recycled paper, paper that had already been used because
5 there was a shortage of paper. So we would use the other side of a sheet
6 of a paper, and every single page of a statement would be signed by the
8 Q. And were these statements, call them that, and perhaps you should
9 correct me, were they actually statements or was it information that you
10 after speaking to them compile and then gave it back to the witness?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, to make sure that you understand the
12 question, what's being asked of you is the following: Which system did
13 you adopt? Did you write down verbatim, word for word, what the person
14 you are interviewing was telling you or did you make basic notes of your
15 own based on what the interviewee would be telling you and then ask him to
16 sign, or her to sign?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The person's statements were
18 taken word for word. Person's name, place of origin, what happened,
19 where, when, who was the victim, who the perpetrator. That was the order
20 in which we took these matters. But we would put -- I would put questions
21 to the person, the person would answer, and after the person signed every
22 page of the statement, we would read the statement back to the person.
23 However, the statement was handwritten. We did not have typewriters.
24 When the statement was finished, I would take the statement and give it to
25 the president of the War Presidency, Hajrudin Avdic, as it was.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
3 Q. And you also testified that you would cross-reference or check on
4 the accuracy of the statement. Would that be correct?
5 A. I haven't understood the question.
6 Q. I'll rephrase it. The information you received from various
7 witnesses, did you check on the accuracy of the information they gave you?
8 A. I will try to illustrate it. If there was an event in a village
9 where five persons were killed, and there were three survivors who were
10 eye witnesses, I would at any rate take statements from all the three
11 persons and take their statements separately, for each of the three, and
12 hand them over as such. After all, I did not select the information
13 myself. I did not look into the discrepancies in these statements. My
14 job was to find the person, take its statement, and put down whatever the
15 person saw. Even if you have two persons on the same spot, they will not
16 see the same things. That's why I used several sources of information so
17 that one, one day, when a person will be analysing these statements, a
18 conclusion can be arrived at, whether the matters did happen that way or
20 Q. And I take it there wasn't always more than one person talking
21 about an event. Would that be correct? In other words --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean, because that would confuse me as a
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, indeed. I'll rephrase the
1 Q. You said you would speak to about three persons, for example,
2 about a particular attack. My question is: Did there ever come a time
3 when you spoke to one individual about an attack and not necessarily three
4 or four or five individuals?
5 A. Whenever I was able to speak to several persons, I did. Where it
6 was not possible, where there were -- when such circumstances where I did
7 not have five persons, I only had one, then I would speak only to that
9 Q. And if there was -- and if there was a discrepancy after speaking
10 to that one person, you wouldn't necessarily know it?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: A discrepancy if he speaks to one? How would there
12 be a discrepancy?
13 MS. RICHARDSON: I'll rephrase -- I'll rephrase the question.
14 Q. If you only spoke to one person at times, if there was not several
15 persons for you to speak with, and that one individual gave you
16 information, I take it you would take the information being given by that
17 sole person and then you would turn them over to the president of the War
18 Presidency; would that be correct?
19 A. Of course I would. Not only a statement belonging to that person,
20 but of every single person, because I would take statements from every
21 person in turn and then hand them over. Therefore, if I had one event
22 about which I was taking statements from five people, then I would take a
23 statement from each of the five persons.
24 Q. And with respect to the information taken from these individuals,
25 whether it's the one sole person or the five, you never looked into
1 validating the accuracy of the information? In other words, I'll actually
2 rephrase the question so that you have a better understanding of what I'm
3 getting at.
4 If one person gave you information, did you yourself look into the
5 facts taken from that one person to verify it in any way?
6 A. Distinguished Prosecutor, I did not have a mandate of estimating
7 matters or weighing them. If I ever learned of a crime having been
8 committed there and of a person having been killed there, my job was to
9 find out who the person was, whether the person was indeed on the scene of
10 the crime, and if I managed to ascertain these things, then I proceeded to
11 talk to survivors, if any, and then forward the information to the
13 Q. Was there ever a time that more than one individual giving you a
14 statement, that their facts were different? When I say the facts, the
15 circumstances they gave you in the statement vary from one to the other?
16 Or did they all give you the exact same statement regarding an attack on a
17 particular village?
18 A. The information was never exactly the same but they were about the
19 same event. Every person provided information as they had seen things
20 happening. For example, if there was a village with 30 houses and five
21 people were killed in that village, maybe they were not all killed in a
22 single spot. Maybe one person saw one or two people being killed. I
23 would collect information from the viewpoint of the surviving witnesses,
24 and that was it.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think what you are being asked for is what did you
1 do, if ever, while you were doing this work, there were conflicting
2 versions, not different versions, but conflicting versions of the same
3 events given by two separate persons that you were interviewing? What
4 would you do? Would you investigate further or would you just forward
5 your -- the relative statements to your superior, to your boss, without
6 comment and without further investigations? This is basically what
7 Ms. Richardson is seeking from you.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in any case, I would
10 verify several sources of information, but I would write down what each
11 person had said. These informations were not contradictory. If there
12 were witnesses speaking of the same village, what differed was the
13 viewpoint of the survivor, what that particular survivor had actually
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically, Ms. Richardson, he's telling you that
16 he did not come across this eventuality or this possibility of having
17 conflicting statements on the same events by different persons.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So I suppose you either move to the next question
20 or --
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm going to move to the next
23 Q. And indeed, with respect to the names you were given of the Serb
24 perpetrators, did that information -- was there any conflicting
25 information about the names given to you? In other words, did one person
1 who saw perhaps the exact same event gives you a list of names and then
2 someone else give you -- gave you another list of names either omitting
3 someone or putting in someone? Did that ever occur?
4 A. Yes. It did occur. The difference was in that not every survivor
5 recognised every perpetrator. For example, I don't know this group of
6 people here and perhaps you don't know that other group. But in essence,
7 an event would occur and the persons giving statements need not have known
8 each and every perpetrator because the perpetrator would come from
9 different places. So people would recognise those who came from places
10 they were familiar with, and that's how they identified perpetrators.
11 Q. Now, you also mentioned that you had taken statements in the
12 fields -- in the field. Could you tell us approximately how many
13 statements you took in the field in 1992 and into 1993?
14 A. Hundreds.
15 Q. And where exactly were you when you took these statements? What
16 areas were you in -- were you located in?
17 A. On the free territory of Srebrenica.
18 Q. When you say the free territory, are you talking about the
19 surrounding villages, including Cizmici, Bljeceva?
20 A. Yes, Cizmici, Pale, Potocari, not to list them all, the villages
21 around Srebrenica.
22 Q. When you took the statements in the field, could you tell us how
23 you went about doing this? Was It a similar procedure? In other words,
24 did you take it via handwriting and then the witness signed it and it was
25 given over to the president of the War Presidency once you returned to
2 A. Precisely so. I would take it down in handwriting on an ordinary
3 piece of paper. The witness would sign. If there were several pages,
4 they would be attached to each other. And that would be handed over.
5 Q. And what information did you take from the individuals in the
6 field? And by that, when I say individuals, did you talk to fighters or
7 did you talk to civilians? Could you tell us?
8 A. It was mostly with civilians that I spoke. For the most part they
9 were refugees. I usually took witnesses [as interpreted] from refugees
10 but also from the local population, where there had been shelling,
11 killings and so on.
12 Q. And of course among these refugees there would often be fighters.
13 Did you talk to the fighters at any point?
14 A. Yes, sometimes. I did when I went out into the field to visit a
15 village, I would also visit the men on the front line, purely to see where
16 they came from and I even obtained information that there were refugees
17 among them. For example in the village of Zaklopaca and some other
18 villages around Vlasenica and Bratunac.
19 Q. And I take it you also spoke to them about what they were doing on
20 the frontline? In other words, that they were protecting it from the
21 Serbs? And you talked about from a military perspective what the fighters
22 were seeking to accomplish?
23 A. I don't know how you can consider this to be of a military
24 perspective. I would ask them how they were doing, whether there was any
25 shelling, whether the Serbs were shooting, whether anyone had been killed
1 or wounded. Those were the usual questions.
2 Q. Okay. You mentioned that -- you testified that you worked with
3 Hamed Salilovic [phoen]?
4 A. For a time, we worked together with Hamed Salihovic? No, no.
5 Q. I stand corrected. Hamed Alic?
6 A. Yes. Hamed Alic was the chief of the communications and
7 information service and I cooperated with him because initially he was our
8 chief, in a way, until he left Srebrenica.
9 Q. And where was Mr. Alic from?
10 A. He was from Bratunac.
11 Q. Do you know exactly where in Bratunac?
12 A. From Borkovski [phoen], near Bratunac, where his wife was killed
13 in 1992. She was executed.
14 Q. Do you remember his wife's name?
15 A. Halima, if I'm not wrong; I may be wrong. But I do know she was
16 executed on that day.
17 Q. Thank you?
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would like the
19 witness to be shown Prosecution's Exhibit P90, and this is, of course, the
20 book by Naser Oric entitled, "Srebrenica testifies and accuses" and it is
21 in Sanction, Your Honour, the portion that I will be referring the witness
22 to. It's the English page P48 and it's the B/C/S 02919305 to 9306.
23 Q. While the usher is trying to locate the page, before we go to that
24 document, I'd like to ask you if you're familiar with the book that this
25 statement an excerpt from?
1 A. No, I'm not.
2 Q. You're not familiar with the book, "Srebrenica testifies"?
3 A. No.
4 Q. The statement that you're looking at, and just for the record I
5 should read: It's dated the 2nd of June 1992, "Republic of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, municipality of Srebrenica, commission for gathering
7 of information on war crimes and depravities," and it is signed statement
8 recorded by Mustafa Sacirovic and statement given by Muharem Salkic.
9 Now, my first question is do you recall taking a statement from
10 Mr. Salkic around June of 1992?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the statement he gave was regards to the incidents or, should
13 I say, what had happened in the Bratunac municipality around May of 1992?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, I would like to take you to a particular portion of this
16 statement. And it's the very last paragraph. It begins with the
17 word "before the shooting," that phrase.
18 Do you see that? Do you see the sentence "I fell over the bodies
19 in the brook and, pretending to be dead, managed to stay alive"?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do you recall what Mr. Salkic told you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And do you recall some other information in this statement? And
24 let me just read the portion I'd like to ask you a question about. It
25 says, "Before the shooting the Chetniks took all our money, some 200
1 [indiscernible] billions and our gold and silver jewellery. The following
2 persons lost their lives by this horrible crime, Miho Abdic from Borkovac
3 [phoen] near Bratunac, Hamid Alic from Borakovat [phoen], Hamilija Alic
4 [phoen] from Borkovac. And there are some other names. Do you see that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you recall him telling you that Mr. Hamed Alic had lost his
9 A. This is an error. It's not Hamed Alic. It's his father, Hamid.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic?
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I noticed
12 that, too, so I was about to react. The Prosecutor was saying the wrong
13 name but the witness observed that himself. Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: She didn't even say one single name right.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'll keep trying.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, keep trying, Ms. Richardson.
17 MS. RICHARDSON:
18 Q. So this information leer is not about Mr. Hamed Alic, not the one
19 you worked for in Srebrenica in the communication and information service?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic?
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this manner of
24 examination is confusing for the witness. It certainly about Hamed Alic.
25 The witness said it was about the death of Hamed Alic's father so what's
1 the point of such a question unless it's to confuse the witness?
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I believe this witness is a highly
3 intelligent individual and can tell us if he's confused, as he's just
4 corrected me, it is the father. I don't think it's necessary for Defence
5 counsel to get up and state that the witness is confused when he's
6 obviously indicated to us that he is not.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move and I think we can move to the same
8 question because the situation, the picture, emerges quite clear from what
9 he has already testified, in any case.
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Sacirovic, and I hope I'm not mispronouncing your name at
12 this moment as well as the others, but could you tell us whether or not
13 you had any contact with Mr. Masic about the information you collected
14 from the witnesses? And when I say "any contact," I mean during the
15 period between 1992 and 1993, and thereafter. Did you -- did you talk to
16 him about the statements you collected?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Which Mr. Masic?
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, Mr. -- the author, the person who
19 assisted with this book.
20 Can I have a moment, Your Honour?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MS. RICHARDSON: It is Najiz [phoen] Masic, Your Honour.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do know him.
25 MS. RICHARDSON:
1 Q. And did you discuss with him the work that had been done in 1992,
2 1993, in Srebrenica?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Was he aware, to your knowledge -- given that you hadn't discussed
5 it with him, but do you think he would have been aware that you were doing
6 this work, this very important work in Srebrenica?
7 A. I don't know whether he knew or not. The role of Nijaz Masic in
8 Srebrenica is not known to me.
9 Q. All right. While we have that -- while you have that statement
10 before you, and this Prosecution's Exhibit 90, I would ask the usher's
11 assistance in showing you some additional statements that are attached to
12 this book, and please tell us whether you recall that you had taken these
13 statements from these particular individuals.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: One moment, Your Honour.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think we may have to come back to
17 this because we do need to give the witness the B/C/S and refer to the ERN
18 number, and it may be a bit of a problem.
19 Perhaps the usher could just leave it for a moment and I could
20 move on to something else.
21 Q. Now, with respect to the information you collected in the field --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: A problem that's why I asked to you ask him exactly
23 which Mr. Masic, because--
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, indeed --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: -- as you will recall yesterday we dealt with this
1 during the examination-in-chief. These two persons, the witness and Nijaz
2 Masic, seemed to be both authorised to conduct certain investigations, in
3 the case of Masic into genocide, but the authorisation was signed by Hamed
4 Alic and not by Hajrudin Avdic. So this is what emerged yesterday.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, and I was -- as a matter of
6 fact had intended to ask the witness about that as well.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically I don't know where you want to get
8 obviously and I will not interfere, but what's the point of asking him
9 whether he ever discussed it with Masic? Because he doesn't seem to give
10 us the impression that he was pally with Masic at any time.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: He's already answered the question I was only
12 seeking to put to the witness the whether or not the statements in
13 attached to the book are taken by him and he's already stated that he did
14 not speak to Mr. Masic about his work. So in the interests of time, I
15 will get back to the portion of the book and it will be a very short
16 series of questions and simply about whether or not --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: -- whether he gave the statements to Mr. Masic.
19 I'll move on.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Masic? He would never have given them to
21 Mr. Masic because Mr. Masic -- he was not answerable to Mr. Masic.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, indeed. I misspoke. Not given
23 them to Mr. Masic but -- and he's already answered the question so I can
24 move on. Thank you.
25 Q. Now, when you testified earlier you said that you took statements
1 from individuals in the field. I take it the only person you gave these
2 statements to, whether it was statements from civilians or fighters, was
3 to the president of the War Presidency, Mr. Avdic? Would that be correct?
4 A. Yes. Only to him.
5 Q. And that last statement that was recorded by you, and this was
6 given to you by Mr. Muharem Salkic, that document is dated June 2nd 1992.
7 Do you recall at around that time, was it that you had been appointed
8 president of the commission for gathering information?
9 A. On the 2nd of June, you mean? Well, let me tell you something.
10 The commission, and I as an investigator, I told you I started gathering
11 information from the 3rd of May 1992, when Hranca was torched, the first
12 Muslim village in Bratunac municipality. My work dates from then. But
13 the first day I worked as an investigator was the 3rd of May 1992 and my
14 work continues until today. I have been doing this since the 3rd of May
16 Q. Thank you. My question was actually designed to find out from you
17 exactly when it was you were appointed the president of the commission. I
18 know you began your work before. There came a point in time you were
19 summoned to Srebrenica. So do you recall if it was around June or even
20 earlier that you had received this appointment?
21 A. I think I was appointed in July --
22 Q. July.
23 A. -- by the president of the War Presidency of Srebrenica,
24 Mr. Avdic. He's the one who signed the decision on my appointment and the
25 only one to whom I was duty-bound to submit reports and documents. I
1 never submitted documents to anybody else.
2 Q. Now, this document that you were just previously looking at, it
3 dates the 2nd of June 1992. And it's from the commission for gathering of
4 information on war crimes and depravity. So could it be that you had been
5 appointed even earlier than July and perhaps it was June of 1992 you had
6 received this official appointment?
7 A. No. It's not possible, because the War Presidency did not exist.
8 But you can change dates in books. People can put any date they like in a
9 book. These are not relevant documents.
10 Q. All right. So the statement that was before you from Mr. Salkic
11 bearing the 2nd of June 1992, that's an incorrect date, and -- is it an
12 incorrect date, first of all?
13 A. The date is correct.
14 Q. 2nd of June 1992. So that's when you actually spoke to him?
15 A. Yes. That's correct, a hundred per cent.
16 Q. And did you see the document indicating that it was from the
17 commission for gathering of information? However, you're now telling us
18 that you had not been appointed yet. So perhaps you can explain to us how
19 it was in June of 1992 you took a statement, and the statement is from the
20 commission, but you really received your appointment in July? If you
21 could just clarify that for us, if you know.
22 A. What I can assert is that I took the statement on the date stated
23 from the person named. As for anything else in that book, I don't know.
24 I don't know what kind of commission is named here. But the content of
25 the statement, the date and the name of the witness, and my name, are
1 correct. However, as for the heading, I don't know who put it there or
2 how or why.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous interpretation continues] ... because this
5 needs clarification and it will avoid us coming back to it later on.
6 When you started doing this work on the 3rd of May, roughly, of
7 1992, did you form part of any agency, commission, for gathering
8 information? Or not? Was there already this commission or not?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I started writing
10 these things down on my own initiative, without any order or suggestion
11 from anyone. On the 3rd of May, when that happened, I felt the need to
12 write things down. And then people heard that I was writing these things
13 down and that's why Mr. Hajrudin Avdic, when the War Presidency was
14 established, summoned me and offered me this job and appointed me to the
15 commission on gathering information. That's how it was.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's coming out clear now. So Avdic appointed you
17 on the 2nd of July, didn't he?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall the exact date but it
19 was in July, in early July, yes, 1992.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So can we see on the ELMO the original of this
21 document? If it -- if you have a copy of it in the original language, in
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I do.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's put that on the ELMO and then I will put
25 the question to the witness and he will try to explain to us better.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So could you put it further -- further up,
3 please? Or -- of further -- no so that we see whether it's signed or not.
4 That's what I'm interested in for the time being.
5 So -- so you look at this document. It does not purport to be the
6 original, does it, because it doesn't carry any signature. As it just
7 states, signed Salkic Muharem, signed Sacirovic, Mustafa. That's what it
8 says. And it's typewritten and not handwritten.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. The original statement would have been
11 handwritten and not typewritten; is that correct?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So this is not the original? It's a
14 copy supposedly of the original that you yourself signed. Look at me and
15 not -- please, Mr. Sacirovic, look at me.
16 So this is not the original. This is purports to be a typed copy
17 of that statement that you took from Salkic, Muharem, on this 3rd -- or
18 the 2nd of June 1992; is that correct?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is not my handwriting.
20 Somebody copied this.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. And on the paper that you would have used
22 when you were taking down the statement from Mr. Muharem Salkic, this
23 would be just an ordinary piece of paper and not a paper with a
24 letterhead, would it?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I used ball point pen and an
1 ordinary piece of paper. There was no heading. It just said, "statement
2 taken on such and such a date," and then it would contain the details, the
3 time, the place, the date, and so on.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: And one final question that is not related to this
5 document as such: Nijaz Masic, did he work in the same building as you
6 did? Did he have an office there in the same building?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I don't know what
8 the role of Nijaz Masic was.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know that -- whether he was a part of the
10 communications and -- what is the right word? Do you know if he formed
11 part of the communications and information service, of which you formed
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. He doesn't know. He doesn't know.
15 So I think we can stop here for the day, Ms. Richardson. I
16 apologise to you for interrupting.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we needed to clear that up.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: We needed to clear this up--
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Absolutely.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: -- because we would have come back on both issues in
21 any case.
22 So we will continue tomorrow morning, sir, at 9.00, here. In the
23 meantime, please again I just remind you not to communicate with anyone.
24 Thank you so much, everyone, and we will reconvene tomorrow
25 morning at 9.00.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m., to
2 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day of November
3 2005, at 9.00 a.m.