1 Tuesday, 15 November 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Usher, good morning to you. Could you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the Case
8 Number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in a language that you
11 can understand?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
13 morning, ladies and gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings in my own
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and good morning to you, too. You may
16 sit down.
17 Appearances for the Prosecution.
18 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and also good morning to
19 my learned friends of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel
20 for the Prosecution. I am here together within a team with
21 Ms. Patricia Sellers, Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our
22 case manager, Mrs. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and good morning to you and your team.
24 Appearances for Naser Oric.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
1 morning to the colleagues from the Office of the Prosecutor. My name is
2 Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones I appear for
3 Mr. Naser Oric. We have with us here our legal assistant,
4 Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you
6 and your team.
7 Are there any preliminaries this morning?
8 MR. WUBBEN: None.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I see none.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
12 Madam Usher can escort the witness into the courtroom, please.
13 How long do you expect your cross-examination to last, Mr. Wubben?
14 MR. WUBBEN: A couple of hours, Your Honour, certainly before the
15 end of the morning session.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Just to put you on the alert, we need
17 the first break to be of something like 40 minutes' duration. And then
18 we will talk about the rest.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Captain.
21 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. We are proceeding with your testimony
23 today, and it's the turn of the Prosecution with their cross-examination.
24 Now, Mr. Wubben.
25 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 WITNESS: DAVE MacDONALD [Resumed]
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Wubben:
3 Q. Good morning, Mr. MacDonald.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the Prosecution. I have
6 questions for you this morning, and I will start right away. Yesterday
7 you gave testimony regarding your mission going to the north of Bosnia
8 from Sarajevo, and the aim, the initial aim, was Tuzla. Is this correct?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. Did you undergo any briefing about the situation there in Sarajevo
11 by, let's say, UNMO?
12 A. The briefing on Tuzla?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. No. I mean, I just followed on TV. We had TV in Sarajevo, but I
15 had no briefing on the exact situation in Tuzla.
16 Q. There's no guideline for giving briefings to UNMOs heading for
17 some missions and updating them of the situation from headquarters point
18 of view or sitreps?
19 A. I would have been briefed in Tuzla, by the people in Tuzla. The
20 people in Sarajevo don't necessarily know what's going on in Tuzla.
21 Q. I see. Now, you arrived in -- not in Tuzla but entered near
22 Zvornik. And had you been briefed there by the team leader, that's Alex
24 A. Briefed -- well, I met him that evening when I arrived.
25 Q. Yes. I mean briefed about the situation.
1 A. The situation?
2 Q. In Zvornik or Tuzla. And then I mean the military situation.
3 A. Yes. That evening when I did meet him he briefed me on the
4 situation, particularly in Konjevic Polje that day. And once I -- once it
5 was determined that I would be staying at that team the next day, then I
6 immediately started reading into the situation, especially as the two IC
7 of the team, I had to start finding out what was going on as much as
9 Q. The situation in Konjevic Polje, meaning also the warring
11 A. As much of the situation as we could find out in the Zvornik
12 bridge area.
13 Q. Yes. What was the update regarding these forces at various sites,
14 Serb forces, in Konjevic Polje?
15 A. Well, he particularly told me about the incident in Konjevic
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. But because we could not get into a lot of the areas because they
19 refused our entry to where we wanted to go and we were supposed to have
20 freedom of movement, then in many cases we could only speculate. Or if we
21 actually saw things, like I mentioned yesterday, then that would be part
22 of building the information situation.
23 Q. Now, there came a time that you went to Srebrenica. You were
24 aiming -- you were trying to get there, and finally the 27th of March you
25 were able to get to Srebrenica. Were you also updated by this team leader
1 regarding the situation in Srebrenica?
2 A. No, because he was not in Srebrenica. So he -- we were unable to
3 get any information other than from the people that were inside,
4 General Morillon, a few military observers. But due to what I said
5 yesterday, the fact that we had poor radio communications, then we didn't
6 know a lot from anybody else. It all became a matter of what you actually
7 saw yourself in many cases.
8 Q. But there were, indeed, sitreps, situation reports, from the UN,
9 isn't it, regarding the situation in the whole of Bosnia and also
10 particular parts of it?
11 A. But we never saw those.
12 Q. I would like to show you the report also used yesterday, D903?
13 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honours, we can place it on Sanction for you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
15 MR. WUBBEN: And I wonder if it's necessarily then to place it
16 also on the ELMO.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: No. If it's put on Sanction, Mr. Wubben, I see no
18 use -- no need to have it also on the ELMO. I would take it that the
19 members of the public and the persons we have in the strangers' gallery
20 can still follow if it's on Sanction. Thank you.
21 MR. WUBBEN: Exhibit D903.
22 Q. May I draw your attention, Captain, to page 3 under 3(D). Now,
23 this is a report dated the --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I still don't see it on Sanction.
25 MR. WUBBEN: Sorry. One moment.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise, if it's easier, let's put it on the ELMO
2 and move ahead. Madam Usher, please. And we can still have it on the
3 ELMO in the meantime.
4 MR. WUBBEN:
5 Q. Captain, we have here a report dated the 22nd of March, 1993, and
6 page 3 out of 7, I quote under -- it's the one, two, three, fourth part of
7 it starting with the word "comment" and the last sentence I quote. "If
8 the Serbs decide to press who the attack -- hoe the attack, the BiH army
9 will not be able to hold out for long. Civilian casualties will be very
11 This is regarding the situation in Srebrenica. Isn't it true that
12 the Serbs --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben, sorry to interrupt you, because -- but
14 we can't follow you. You said four on page three?
15 MR. WUBBEN: I said the fourth part of it. If I used the
16 word "paragraph" then you would immediately jump --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay, okay, okay.
18 MR. WUBBEN: That's why. And there is on the last sentence --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Wubben.
20 MR. WUBBEN: Should I quote again?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I could remember the words, but I couldn't see
22 it in print.
23 MR. WUBBEN: Okay.
24 Q. In this quoted sentence you will notice the vital role of the BiH
25 army. Did you became aware of that vital role of the BiH army when you
1 were actually in Srebrenica at the time?
2 A. I don't understand the question.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes -- one moment.
4 Mr. Jones.
5 MR. JONES: Yes. Well, precisely. I'm not surprised the witness
6 cannot follow. There's no reference to the "vital role" of the BiH army
7 in that sentence. So that's certainly not what that sentence states.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
9 Please restrict your question, Mr. Wubben, to whether the witness
10 knew of the existence of the BiH army at the time or not, because that's
11 what is written -- or that's what that particular sentence contains
12 anyway, reference --
13 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, I will --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- to the existence as such of a BiH army.
15 MR. WUBBEN:
16 Q. In the sentence there's a mentioning of the BiH army. Captain,
17 were you aware of such a BiH army, as mentioned in this report?
18 A. I was aware of a BiH army in Sarajevo because we dealt with what
19 was the beginnings of the BiH army, but that's it from Sarajevo.
20 Q. So in your opinion it is incorrect that the BiH army will not be
21 able to hold out for long if the Serbs decide to press continuing the
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I won't let him answer that question because it
24 doesn't follow from what is written there. If he told you that he is
25 aware or he was aware at the time of the existence of a BiH army in
1 Sarajevo, he cannot -- he cannot confirm or deny whether there was a BiH
2 army in Srebrenica, too. I mean, it's -- how can he answer your question?
3 MR. WUBBEN: I will make that conclusion at another occasion,
4 Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
6 MR. WUBBEN:
7 Q. In fact, you were not aware of a BiH army in Srebrenica? That's
8 your opinion?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. What was the information you received on arriving at Srebrenica
11 from your team leader regarding the warring factions?
12 A. The evening of the 27th when those military observers extracted
13 themselves from Konjevic Polje he told me the stories of what had happened
14 that day, where they had been held, essentially, hostage by the women and
15 children and the fact that there was really no Bosnian military to do
16 anything about the situation; and then the Bosnian Serb forces walking the
17 mortars in on the crowd to try and get the military observers out of their
19 Q. Thank you, Captain. Yes, you stated that yesterday. Let me focus
20 on Srebrenica and the wider area around this town. What was the
21 assessment of that situation when it comes to warring parties?
22 A. Well, the assessment that was that the Bosnian Serb forces were
23 pushing and that when they left Konjevic Polje that day, that it was about
24 to fall, based on what had happened.
25 Q. And the front line was near Potocari?
1 A. No, the front line was in that area, that day, at Konjevic Polje.
2 That was the Bosnian holding, so that would have been the -- their line of
3 confrontation. By the 27th of March, when we went in, that's when we
4 realised where the new front line was, at Potocari.
5 Q. And what was at the other side of that line of confrontation near
6 Potocari, in your opinion? The other side from the -- the Serbs one side,
7 the other side?
8 A. The Bosnians.
9 Q. Civilians?
10 A. Yes, in many cases we would see civilians.
11 Q. Only civilians?
12 MR. JONES: If he could finish his answer.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Jones.
14 THE WITNESS: My definition of a civilian or a soldier, of course,
15 would be different when I was there. Anybody who carried a weapon I would
16 refer to as a soldier. What we saw civilians in civilian clothing with
17 weapons; if you want to call them a soldier, they're defending their
18 homes, their family, their land. But if you want to define a soldier as
19 somebody in uniform, there was very few people that were in uniforms. And
20 if they were in uniforms, it was something that they may have gotten off a
21 dead soldier or at an army surplus store or wherever.
22 MR. WUBBEN:
23 Q. I'll address that issue later of the uniforms. Let's go further
24 to the military actions by Muslim forces in 1992. Were you aware of the
25 attack by Muslim forces on the village of Ratkovici in June 1992?
1 A. No, I was not.
2 Q. Were you aware of the by Muslim forces on Jezestica in August
4 A. No, I was not.
5 Q. Were you aware of the attack of Muslim forces on Fakovici on the
6 5th of October, 1992?
7 A. No, I was not.
8 Q. Were you aware of the attack by Muslim forces on Bjelovac in
9 December 1992?
10 A. I was not.
11 Q. And lastly, the attacks by Muslim forces on Kravica, Siljkovici
12 and Jezestica in January 1992 -- 1993, sorry.
13 A. No, I was not.
14 Q. You were not aware that Bosnian forces were able to achieve from
15 the summer of 1992 until 1993 that they extended their area of control?
16 A. No, I was not because operating in a different area and had
17 different missions at that time.
18 Q. So your knowledge about Muslim forces or fighters regarding
19 Srebrenica and the area only stems from March 1993?
20 A. Yes, in the Srebrenica area. Yes, in March, April 1993.
21 Q. I'd like to show you Exhibit D902, Captain. It's a report of the
22 15th of March.
23 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honours, Sanction is working.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Wubben.
25 MR. WUBBEN:
1 Q. You can see it on the monitor, Captain?
2 A. I can.
3 Q. Thank you. I will quote page 6 paragraph 9(b).
4 "Since approximately May 1992, the BSA has conducted a systematic
5 village-by-village campaign to ethnically cleanse the
6 Cerska-Srebrenica-Zepa enclaves. The predominant threat to the Serbs has
7 been the aggressive attacks by the Muslims against Serb supply lines and
8 villages including pressure against Serbian positions on the Drina River
10 You read that, Captain?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. "The reporting period of time from May 1992 includes the attacks
13 mentioned by me."
14 Do you agree that these attacks by Muslim forces had formed the
15 predominant threat to the Serbs?
16 A. I would not be able to comment on that.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I mean, Mr. Wubben, if he's not aware of
18 the existence or of the occurrence of the various alleged Muslim attacks,
19 how can he comment as to whether they constituted a threat to the
20 Serbian -- to the Serbs or to the Serbian forces?
21 MR. WUBBEN: He might learn from sitreps, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: He --
23 MR. WUBBEN: -- that the outcome is a pressure -- rather, the
24 basis for such pressure.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Why are you asking him to learn from sitreps? The
1 sitreps say what they say and that's it. I mean, if he isn't even aware
2 of the existence of those attacks, how can he learn anything, as you put
3 it, from the sitreps?
4 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, he might give his comment regarding
5 specific information.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: He can't give a comment, Mr. Wubben, if he's not
7 aware of the existence or of the occurrence of those attacks. He can only
8 confirm what -- that he can -- that what the sitrep says, but that's about
9 it. More than that, he cannot go any further.
10 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, the -- in 9(b) what I quoted includes
11 attacks by Muslims against Serb villages, and those villages shouldn't be
12 the same, definitely the same, as the village that I referred to and
13 requested him to and give comment.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Then put to him the question of whether he is aware
15 of any other Muslim attacks against Serbian lines or Serbian villages
16 apart from the ones that he has already told us he was not aware of.
17 MR. WUBBEN:
18 Q. Captain, can you shed light on that --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: During the period in question, starting from May
20 1992 until you basically arrived in Srebrenica on the 27th of March, 1993.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I spent the first six months -
22 just to recap from yesterday - in Croatia. I had no idea what was going
23 on in Bosnia because that was not my mission. I had a set mission at that
24 time. I did not, and it was not my job, to read sitreps, nor did we get
25 sitreps from the UN forces. It was our job to create sitreps and pass
1 them up. Then I spent the next four and a half months from mid-November
2 1992 until March 1993 in Sarajevo. That was a completely situation, and I
3 focussed on that situation and only that situation. It was only towards
4 the end of that time when somebody said, You are now posted to Tuzla, that
5 I started thinking about what was going on there. I would be briefed when
6 I got there. And when I ended up staying in the Zvornik bridge and going
7 to Srebrenica, then I dealt with that situation at the time. So I cannot
8 comment on this statement here. Yes, that's what it says.
9 MR. WUBBEN:
10 Q. And the part of the statement in which you yesterday testified
11 about the Drina River border, does that also include that you can give
12 comment on the pressure against Serbian positions on the Drina border of
13 the river?
14 A. Pressure on the Serbian positions by --
15 Q. Yes --
16 A. From them or somebody from the other side?
17 Q. From Muslim forces.
18 A. I did not see that. I could not comment on that.
19 Q. And you have no information regarding?
20 A. No, I don't.
21 Q. Other than you gave yesterday of the positions you saw dug-in to
22 prevent any attacks from the enemy side?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: No -- again, it wasn't -- when he mentioned the
24 positions, the dug-in positions yesterday - I will give you an opportunity
25 to speak, Mr. Jones - he specifically mentioned that that was to cut off
1 the approach to the Tuzla area for the Muslims that were trying to move
2 from -- I can't remember exactly which part. But the area he pointed out
3 to us yesterday, he marked on the map, which was literally riddled with
4 these dug-in posts by the Serb was to make sure that no Muslim would
5 manage to pass through and that they would be killed in the process of
6 trying to.
7 Yes, Mr. Jones.
8 MR. JONES: Yes. And it is also mentioned in his evidence
9 yesterday that there was heavy artillery on the Serbian side of the Drina.
10 He certainly didn't say, as Mr. Wubben is suggesting, that those were to
11 prevent attacks from the enemy side. Those were heavy guns which were
12 firing towards to Srebrenica, for who knows what reason, to terrorise this
13 population. He didn't say it was in order to prevent attacks; that's
14 Mr. Wubben's interpretation of the evidence.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones, and you are correct on that,
17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, may I clarify something here?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes of course. You're here to clarify as many
19 things as possible..
20 THE WITNESS: 99.9 per cent of the time all forces that we dealt
21 with tried to hide things from us because they didn't want us to see it.
22 So, I mean, if that puts -- puts it in perspective. We had to dig and
23 patrol and try to find things out, and that's not very easy to do.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
25 Please proceed with your question.
1 In the meantime, Judge Eser has a question.
2 JUDGE ESER: Mr. MacDonald, when you speak of forces, "99.9 per
3 cent of the time the forces we dealt with were trying to hide things from
4 us," what forces do you mean? Serbian forces or Muslim forces as well?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Muslim forces, Serbian forces, when I was in
6 Croatia, Croatian forces, Bosnian Serb forces, Serb forces, all the
7 different factions I dealt with in my 12 months there.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben, sorry for having interrupted you.
9 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.
10 Your Honour, regarding that dug-in position, artillery position,
11 there might be a misunderstanding. What I really meant was another
12 situation. I will come back to that question later --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Rephrase your question in any way you like, but make
14 sure it reflects the witness's testimony of yesterday and also his
15 clarification of today.
16 MR. WUBBEN: I will do so.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I'm sure you will. Thank you.
18 MR. WUBBEN:
19 Q. Referring to those sitreps I already showed you, is it to your
20 knowledge accurate these sitreps?
21 A. These sitreps are a reflection of information that we get. In
22 many cases this information could be second or third hand. And one of the
23 things that the UN really pushes these days is actually having in the
24 sitrep where you say "unconfirmed" or "confirmed." I don't see that in
25 this report, so a lot of this stuff could be based on people hearing
1 stuff. So it's not 100 per cent accurate.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: In any case, let me conclude on this myself. Are
3 you in a position, Captain, to confirm to us the correctness or the
4 accuracy of sitrep reports on matters the existence of which you're not
5 aware of?
6 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, I'm not.
7 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I would like to move to another sitrep
8 report, and I will bear in mind that the witness will only ask for his
9 knowledge regarding the issues he might have seen. And please correct me
10 if I --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, Mr. Wubben, I correct you only if there is need
12 to. Otherwise, --
13 MR. WUBBEN: Okay.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- I am not here to teach you your job. You are
15 professional and you know as much as anyone else, if not more.
16 MR. WUBBEN: May I show the witness D904, sitrep 29th of March.
17 Q. Now, Captain, this is a report dated the 29th of March, so this
18 refers to a date later an their arrival in the area. There is page 2,
19 paragraph 3, a reference to BiH local commanders attempted to hold the
20 line, referring to Srebrenica. Is that correct to your knowledge?
21 A. Yes, this would be correct to my knowledge, yes.
22 Q. And BiH local commanders, does that refer to the TO and or the BiH
24 JUDGE AGIUS: The question should be how he understands what he
25 understands those words to mean.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. WUBBEN:
2 Q. What do you --
3 MR. WUBBEN: Sorry.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Because his conclusion might differ with -- from
5 that of the person who drew up this report in the first place.
6 MR. WUBBEN:
7 Q. What do you mean by BiH local commander?
8 A. Somebody who has to take charge if you're being attacked by an
9 opposite force. So a local commander could be the strongest person in the
10 village or the senior guy. And whether they were military or civilian,
11 somebody took over and possibly might be called a commander, but I did not
12 see any structure, as such, when I went into Srebrenica.
13 Q. I quote further down that paragraph: "Fighting was reported in
14 and around Zeleni Jadar with the Serbs in the town itself on the 25th of
15 March. As of the 27th of March, however, the town was still in BiH
17 Can you confirm that to your knowledge, especially the 27th of
19 A. I can confirm that when I was wounded on the 3rd of March that
20 Zeleni Jadar was not in Bosnian Serb hands.
21 Q. Captain, you stated that you were wounded on the 3rd of -- it's
22 noted as 3rd of March.
23 A. Sorry, 3rd of April.
24 Q. 3rd of April, 1993.
25 A. 1993.
1 Q. That's for the record.
2 I continue on quoting, Captain, in paragraph 3, the same
3 page. "As the Serb drive continued to collapse the enclaves towards the
4 centre, there was a perceptible hardening of the BiH defence."
5 Can you confirm that to my knowledge when you were there?
6 A. I cannot comment on that. I'm not really sure what they're
7 talking about there.
8 Q. Is it true to your knowledge, and I quote further: "Local
9 authorities still appear to be in control and continue to rotate troops to
10 the front line?
11 A. I cannot comment on that. I didn't really see anything as such.
12 Q. And have no information received about it?
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. "The Muslim southern defence line appears at this juncture to
15 hinge on Zeleni Jadar."
16 Can you confirm that to your knowledge?
17 A. I had received information through my team leader that Zeleni
18 Jadar was a key area, due to it being the last village prior to, I guess,
19 coming into Srebrenica. That was just information that I received. I had
20 gone on foot patrol there, and then eventually went down there on the 3rd
21 of April.
22 Q. When it comes to defence line, I will return to that issue of
23 those Serb artillery placement. And to prevent any misunderstanding, I
24 will quote from the transcript, page 26, of your statement by yesterday.
25 That was on the Serbian side of the Drina, if you might recall, during the
1 time that you were near Zvornik. The question was:
2 "Q. And again, if you can indicate on the map where you saw the
3 artillery placements," you marked it.
4 "Q. So, that's on the Serbian side of the Drina, south of
5 Ljubovija. Is that correct?"
6 Your answer: "Yes, there was a big open area along the river
7 there and they were dug-in in that location, that vicinity."
8 "And what does that indicate," was the question "if artillery is
10 "If artillery are dug-in it is to protect them. You want to get
11 below ground, so that if you are fired on by artillery, that you have some
12 protection because even tanks and guns and, of course, the personnel are
13 vulnerable. So you want to dig-in."
14 A. That's correct, that's what I said.
15 Q. Yes, that's what you said. Now, when it comes to the use by you
16 of the word "enemy artillery" to protect from, what do you mean by that?
17 Who is the enemy out there?
18 A. The JNA or the VJ were a professional military force, and that
19 would be standard operating procedure to do that. So if the question was:
20 Were they dug-in for hardening, they would do that as a matter of course.
21 Q. Anyhow, even without an enemy?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. May I now turn to Exhibit D900 -- sorry, D894. That's the report
24 of the 16th of May.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: This is your own report that you were shown
1 yesterday, Captain.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
3 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.
4 Q. Captain, before I proceed on that I'll return to my question. I
5 apologise that I have to return to my latest question. It is, and I quote
6 again the question: "Now when it comes to the use by you of the
7 word "enemy artillery" to protect from, what do you mean by that, who is
8 the enemy out there? Can you please, for the record, give me your answer
9 who's the enemy for the JNA or Serb forces for that side?
10 A. When I use the term "enemy" that's just a term as a military
11 officer that I use. If I'm against somebody, they're my enemy. That's
12 the term that I used yesterday.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
14 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I mean, it's obvious
15 from -- I submit, from yesterday but certainly from what the witness is
16 saying today is that he was speaking generally about artilleries dug-in
17 against enemy attack. Mr. Wubben is trying to elicit from this witness
18 the answer that the enemy of the VJ were the Bosnians so that he can
19 there -- then reach the proposition that the JNA was dug-in against the
20 Muslim attack. And the witness is not saying that and he should not be,
21 well, sort of led into saying something which clearly that's not what his
22 evidence was. His evidence was, in general terms artillery is dug in
23 against enemy attack. It was standard practice.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the witness has already confirmed that.
25 I don't think we need to bother about this any further,
1 Mr. Wubben, unless you want to pursue it, of course.
2 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, let me state, I thought it was an
3 appropriate question, a proper question.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, that's why I did not --
5 MR. WUBBEN: What my learned friend did was giving guidance to the
6 witness and that's not appropriate.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. The witness has already stated that the
8 digging in was a matter of normal military practice, irrespective and
9 independent of the existence or the probability or possibility of an
11 MR. JONES: Yes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
13 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, I object to any suggestion that I'm
14 trying to give guidance to the witness. That's completely inappropriate.
15 If as a matter of common sense I restate what this witness has stated
16 repeatedly, but which is being ignored by Mr. Wubben, then that's
17 certainly not guidance, it's simply setting the matter straight for
18 everybody's benefit.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think this witness is one of those witnesses that
20 doesn't need guidance from either of you, actually.
21 MR. WUBBEN:
22 Q. Now, Captain, if I may proceed, it's correct you can see in front
23 of you on the monitor, I hope, yes, your report referred to yesterday.
24 A. I do.
25 Q. On the first page, and I quote, and it's down one, two, three,
1 four, five lines, I quote: "The Serbs were attacking on all sides and
2 slowly squeezing the pocket smaller and smaller, looting and then burning
3 the Muslim homes as they went."
4 Did you actually saw your yourself this burning and looting by the
6 A. Yes, I did, on the 3rd of April I actually was an eyewitness to
8 Q. And that looting and burning had been committed by Serb forces?
9 A. Yes, it was Serb forces that I saw doing that in that particular
10 village that I discussed yesterday.
11 Q. And by making use of your binoculars you were able to identify the
13 A. Yes, I was.
14 Q. And also the burning?
15 A. I didn't actually see anybody with a match, but the village was on
16 fire that we observed.
17 Q. And how did you conclude that those forces were burning down those
19 A. You make a conclusion there; there's something -- the homes are on
20 fire, so you make a deduction that they must have done it. That's not a
21 hundred per cent, but that's a deduction that you make.
22 Q. Did you learn any burning down of houses by the Bosnian army at
23 the time?
24 A. I never heard of that, but of course it was quite possible.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: In which period of time, Mr. Wubben? I think you
1 need to put this on the record.
2 MR. WUBBEN: One moment, Your Honour.
3 Q. When did you learn that information regarding burning down of
4 houses by the Bosnian?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not what I meant. It's the --
6 MR. WUBBEN: Oh --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: It was the third Bosnian side, yeah.
8 MR. WUBBEN: I thought he already stated the 3rd of April.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: During the duration of your stay in that area.
10 THE WITNESS: Even to put it back a little bit further, I seen
11 thousands of homes in a state of destruction and that had been burned in
12 former Yugoslavia over my 12 months. Who did that or how they did that,
13 in many cases I can only speculate. In many cases I actually saw it
14 happening in Sarajevo. In the area of Srebrenica in that period, I only
15 saw it on that day, the 3rd of April.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
17 MR. WUBBEN:
18 Q. And yesterday you were also referring to children in Srebrenica
19 without parents, wandering around, isn't it?
20 A. That would be correct.
21 Q. Did you witness any such children torching houses or attempting to
22 burn houses down?
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. Did you witness any houses burning down in Srebrenica during your
1 A. No, I did not.
2 Q. Also, despite the cluster bomb casings that you actually saw when
3 you were in Srebrenica at the time?
4 A. Could you ask that again, please.
5 Q. When you were in Srebrenica, you testified that someone brought in
6 to you the cluster come casing. And given that cluster bomb casing,
7 you -- and the remainders of it, you actually did not saw any damage or
8 burning from it?
9 A. No, I just saw the cluster bomb casings. In fact they were in the
10 PTT when I arrived.
11 Q. I will go now to your report, second part, Captain, and that's on
12 the second page, and I quote: "Shelling" -- no. It's the fifth
13 line. "Near the village Zeleni Jadar, Bosnian soldiers were massing for
14 an attack."
15 What do you mean by "Bosnian soldiers were massing for attack"?
16 Can you give more information about that, to your knowledge?
17 A. That morning I had been on a radio communications to get a convoy
18 in at -- closer to Srebrenica. And we had discussed going to Zeleni Jadar
19 after the radio check that morning to try to check on the situation. And
20 there was fresh shelling going on. There had been a more or less
21 cease-fire prior to the 3rd of April. And when I got down to Zeleni Jadar
22 there was 1 or 200 men in civilian uniforms. Yes, in this document I say
23 "soldiers" because they were carrying weapons. At that time to me
24 anybody with a weapon was a soldier, as I mentioned earlier. They
25 appeared to be massing for attack because Zeleni Jadar was under artillery
1 fire. In actual fact, I would say, they were actually getting ready to
2 withdraw because they don't have any trenches or any place to hide and
3 artillery is going to kill them, so they would most likely withdraw.
4 Q. And those Bosnian soldiers, you notice how they implemented an
5 attack or fulfilled a combat action?
6 A. As far as I know, they withdrew. I went up on top of the hill, I
7 was hit by the mortar, and I was Med-Evac'ed out of there. By the end of
8 that day I was told the Bosnian Serb forces were within spitting distance
9 of Srebrenica, which means they were within one or two kilometres of the
10 centre of the town. So they had advanced approximately eight to ten that
12 Q. You were brought to the hospital of Srebrenica?
13 A. I was.
14 Q. Was that a war hospital?
15 A. What do you mean by a war hospital?
16 Q. In military terms.
17 A. It was a hospital.
18 Q. Were the soldiers, the fighters, brought into that hospital
19 whenever wounded?
20 A. I cannot comment on who was brought there. There was civilians
21 brought there, anybody who was wounded was brought there.
22 Q. Including fighters and soldiers?
23 A. I did not see any fighters or soldiers go in there. I went in
24 there two times, once on a patrol. There was -- we didn't actually see
25 anybody in the rooms, we didn't go in the rooms. And when I was wounded,
1 I was operated on there.
2 Q. And did the hospital fulfil a central role for the area as a
3 surgeon for wounded?
4 A. That was the only medical treatment that anybody could receive, in
5 that hospital.
6 Q. Mm-hmm. I will end with a quotation, Captain, at the end of your
7 report. It's -- and I quote from the third line on the second page
8 below: "Maybe when each faction has cleansed the area of concern and
9 gets the land and recognition they want, then there might be a relative
11 Captain, what do you mean by this concluding or last sentence?
12 A. Each of the different factions had some types of maybe historical
13 land lines where they felt that they owned. I know the Bosnian Serbs were
14 trying to tie-in numbers of land areas with the Krajina and Croatia in
15 Bosnia, and then tie it into one continuous area which would be part of
16 what has been termed "Greater Serbia." The Croatians had some
17 historical-tie land areas in Bosnia. They were trying to tie that in so
18 that it could be tied as one areas into Croatia. And, of course, the
19 Bosnians had areas. So everybody was trying to just tidy up the areas
20 that they wanted so that there wouldn't be separate areas, if you would.
21 Q. And what do you mean by "cleanse," cleanse the area?
22 A. Cleanse the area could be just simply pushing people out so that
23 they're no longer there, so that physically flee. It could be to kill
25 Q. So both parties, both sides, Bosnian forces or Serb forces,
1 whenever they do an action like that, that's your understanding of
3 A. Yes, cleansing could -- like I said, in many cases cleansing was
4 just trying to maybe even intimidate people to leave verbally.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
6 MR. JONES: Firstly it was the reference to both sides. The
7 witness has been talking about Croatia, Croatian Serbs -- sorry,
8 Croatians, Serbians, and Bosnians. He's obviously talking about the whole
9 situation in the former Yugoslavia. He's not talking about this
10 particular area, the Srebrenica enclave. So I would object to referring
11 to both sides when we're actually talking about three sides. And also
12 just I don't see the relevance of this line of questioning. I don't know
13 on what the overall political objectives, how they have any relevance to
14 this case.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, its relevance, I'm satisfied, we are
17 As to the other point that you mentioned, the report is dealing
18 with a specific situation. And the final part of the report to which he
19 has been referred is after all his own. I don't think it has anything to
20 do with Croatia and that. It's an assessment that he is making at this
21 point and he's being asked to explain it.
22 MR. JONES: Well, no, indeed, Your Honour, and the sentence before
23 would have made that clear. "One year in a combat zone is definitely
24 enough for the time being." That's referring to his whole mission in the
25 former Yugoslavia, which is -- included staying in Karlovac in Croatia
1 and, in the answer he's just given, he was referring to the general
2 situation in the whole of the former Yugoslavia.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: But in any case the question deals with the question
4 of cleansing, what is meant by cleansing. And I think we haven't moved an
5 inch, basically, from where we started when the question was put in the
6 first place because he's given an answer and that's it.
7 Do you want to pursue the matter any further, Mr. Wubben?
8 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's clear.
10 MR. WUBBEN: I have concluded that report.
11 Q. Thank you, Captain. I will move to Srebrenica itself, the town of
12 Srebrenica, and its buildings. Yesterday you gave testimony regarding --
13 also today regarding the PTT building. What kind of building was that?
14 Can you describe it.
15 A. The PTT building is the -- I guess PTT stands for post, telegraph,
16 and telephone. It was a square building, three -- I believe three
17 storeys, as I recall, three levels.
18 Q. And what was its function?
19 A. Its function?
20 Q. At the time that you were in Srebrenica?
21 A. We took over and it was supposed to be our UN headquarters. Like
22 I said we put a UN flag up on the roof and we were using it to be our UN
24 Q. You stated "we took over." Were you the only users of that
1 A. As far as I know, yes.
2 Q. As far as you know. Might it be true that also Muslim forces or
3 civilians may use -- made use of that PTT building at the time?
4 A. At some point during my time in Srebrenica, actually close to the
5 3rd of April, I heard there was a ham radio somewheres in the top floor.
6 Q. And who made use of that ham radio?
7 A. I do not know.
8 Q. Did you make use of it?
9 A. I did not, no.
10 Q. Or someone of the team refer to you as making use of that ham
12 A. Not that I'm aware of, no.
13 Q. So you were not aware that the PTT building also functioned as a
14 communication facility for the Muslim forces at a time?
15 A. I was not aware of that. On the 3rd of April when I was wounded I
16 heard that there was a ham radio somewheres on the third floor, and the
17 information was put out to the world press that I had been wounded. And
18 that's -- that was the first I heard of it, and I left the next day.
19 Q. And across the street of that PTT building there is the hospital?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. And did you notice there beside of that hospital a tank?
22 A. I never saw a tank near the hospital, no.
23 Q. Did you observe any shooting, outside shooting, from Srebrenica?
24 A. Outside shooting --
25 Q. By heavy weaponry, yes.
1 A. No. No, I did not.
2 Q. Did you heard of the Domavija Hotel? Did you see it, that hotel?
3 A. I don't know the name. I may have seen the building, but that
4 name does not come into my memory.
5 Q. Were you aware of the headquarters of Hakija Meholjic, a leader
6 within the Bosnian Serb -- sorry, the Bosnian forces?
7 A. No, I'm not.
8 Q. Whenever the PTT building is not --
9 MR. WUBBEN: Sorry.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clear this up, Mr. Wubben, because we have two
11 questions in one.
12 Did you ever hear of Hakija Meholjic at the time?
13 THE WITNESS: I have not heard that name, no, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Then the second part of the questions then
15 automatically falls.
16 MR. WUBBEN: You're correct, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser.
18 JUDGE ESER: May I continue with this question. Did you have any
19 other local commander, local commander, in the time you have been in
21 THE WITNESS: The only person that we dealt with is that liaison
22 officer, which -- his picture was shown us yesterday, and I heard the name
23 Naser Oric when I was there.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
25 Yes, Mr. Wubben.
1 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I request to make -- I have to
2 re-organise, and it will definitely not be a disadvantage for the
3 scheduling of today. So I prefer, if possible, if possible --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: To have the break now --
5 MR. WUBBEN: -- to have the break now rather than --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Certainly, Mr. Wubben. So we will have
7 a 40-minute break starting from now. It will give an opportunity to
8 Judge Brydensholt to meet with his -- some of his co-national researchers.
9 Then we will continue afterwards and you will have all the time to finish.
10 All right? Thank you.
11 So let's say we'll meet at exactly quarter to 11.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.06 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So -- yes, Mr. Wubben.
15 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Captain, I have a question for you regarding your stay in
17 Srebrenica as an UNMO at the time in the team you're in and colleagues
18 involved. Do you recall at the time a person called Jamie?
19 A. Yeah, Captain Trevor Jamie, yes.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. What was his task at the time?
21 A. He was the operations officer for the team.
22 Q. Had he any responsibilities for the UNMOs as an operations
24 A. One of the jobs of an operations officer is to assess tasks and
25 possibly give tasks to people, based on what the team leader might give
2 Q. So it would be important for Captain Jamie to be fully briefed on
3 situations in Srebrenica, isn't it?
4 A. Yes, that would be his job. Yes.
5 Q. Did Jamie have also there access to sitreps?
6 A. I would not be able to answer that question. As an operations
7 officer, that would be entirely possible; however, I do not believe we had
8 access to any sitreps when we were in there because we had very poor
10 Q. Thank you, sir. Yesterday you testified about Muslim forces. I
11 will quote from page 53, and I notice that you speak about -- testify
12 about Bosnian forces. When we use the terminology "Bosnian forces"
13 or "Muslim forces," can we agree that these are the same?
14 A. Yes, I would agree with that.
15 Q. And in the sitreps the BiH army, BiH forces, is alike, the same?
16 A. That would be one of the terms used as well, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. "Well, the Bosnian Serb forces didn't have a lot of
18 infantry, but they had a lot of or a lot more of artillery and tanks and
19 equipments, whereas the Bosnian forces had tens thousands of men that
20 could fight; however, they didn't have a lot of artillery and tanks, even
21 small arms they didn't have a lot of."
22 Is that correct? Is that your testimony?
23 A. That's what I said, yes.
24 Q. Yes. Now, they didn't have a lot of artillery and tanks, so they
25 did have tanks?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I think the question is where.
2 Q. No. The question is not where. The question is: If they didn't
3 have a lot of artillery and tanks, my next question is: So they did have
4 tanks, didn't they?
5 A. I had seen tanks on the Bosnian side, but they had been captured
6 by -- or from the Serb -- the Bosnian Serb forces. So on a very limited
7 basis they may have had a tank.
8 Q. So anyhow, they had some tanks?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Wubben.
10 Yes, he's answered that question.
11 Mr. Jones.
12 MR. JONES: Yes. Well, it's completely unclear whether we're
13 talking about the whole of Bosnia or we're talking about Srebrenica. I
14 don't know if Mr. Wubben wants to keep it vague.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that needs to be clarified, Mr. Wubben.
16 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, that was my next question.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. That's okay. Thank you.
18 MR. WUBBEN:
19 Q. Then how do you know? Where have you seen those?
20 A. In Sarajevo.
21 Q. In Srebrenica also?
22 A. In Srebrenica I saw one tank that had been -- I wouldn't say it
23 was captured. I think it was destroyed and abandoned by the Serb -- the
24 Bosnian Serb forces.
25 Q. And around Srebrenica, a wider area?
1 A. No, just that one.
2 Q. And did you also notice artillery?
3 A. Owned by which side?
4 Q. By the Muslim forces?
5 A. No. There was no artillery that I saw on the Bosnian side.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, let's specify. We're talking of the
7 Srebrenica area and its overall ...
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. There was no artillery on the
9 Bosnian side in the Srebrenica area.
10 MR. WUBBEN:
11 Q. As you noticed during your stay in Srebrenica?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. I will get back to that issue later on, sir. I will quote
14 further. Please bear me a moment. I will, in general, refer to your
15 testimony yesterday when you testified that there were not many uniforms
16 within Muslim forces or fighters wearing civilian clothes rather than
17 uniform. Isn't that true?
18 A. Yes. The -- any Bosnian fighter that I ever saw was wearing
19 mostly civilian clothing. There may have been bits and pieces of a
20 uniform that they had got from somewhere.
21 Q. Now, yesterday you gave testimony about the function of the
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. For the morale, unity. And isn't it true that uniforms make also
25 a distinction whenever there is a combat operation not to fire against
1 each other?
2 A. That is correct, yes.
3 Q. Now, this function of distinction is very important during combat
4 action, isn't it so?
5 A. Extremely important, yes, sir.
6 Q. Can it be true that distinctions can also be made by other forms
7 than by way of uniforms?
8 A. Yes, that's true.
9 Q. For example, by ribbons?
10 A. Yes, ribbons. Of course, that could be a way to distinguish, yes.
11 Q. Bandages around the head?
12 A. Certainly.
13 Q. Bandages around arm?
14 A. That would be correct, yes.
15 Q. And couldn't that be enough for an armed group to operate in a
16 combat action?
17 A. It could be enough, but there's -- I would not dispute that.
18 Q. So you can be a fighting force without having uniforms, isn't it?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. Let him answer the question first.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's true, and I do not dispute that.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones. Yes.
22 MR. JONES: Yes. Your Honour, well, the witness is being asked
23 about the particular purpose of uniforms in order to make sure that
24 fighters don't shoot each other. And now it's being taken as if for all
25 purposes one can have an armed group without uniforms.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection overruled. It's a very pertinent
2 question --
3 MR. JONES: Though it's limited to that one specific function,
4 thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: It is at this point, but it's a very pertinent
6 question and, of course, I will allow it.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Wubben.
8 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. On that issue that was enough. I will move to another issue,
10 that's the acquiring of food within the town. That was a very poor
11 situation, isn't it, for the civilians, for everyone, fighters alike.
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Did you notice how the Bosnian armed forces acquired food in
15 A. I did not personally, no.
16 Q. Is it at your time in Srebrenica right to say that to a certain
17 extent the Serbian armed forces also should take their share from food
19 A. Anybody that was in Srebrenica that didn't have food was entitled
20 to their share of food, yes.
21 Q. Thank you, sir.
22 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I would like to show on Sanction Exhibit
23 D700, a video, famine situation, an ABC Washington documentary including
24 introduction and report.
25 [Videotape played]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. For the record, the video starts
2 rolling at 1 minute, 13 seconds point 6 -- 13 seconds. And could we raise
3 the sound a little bit because I can barely -- I can hear what she is
4 saying but I could hear better if the sound is raised a little bit.
5 MR. WUBBEN: And I prefer to start at 1.10.
6 [Videotape played]
7 "Reporter: ... in Bosnia has witnessed the impact of the airdrops.
8 "These scenes come to us from the town of Srebrenica, a place
9 almost impossible to get to. ABC's Tony Birtley finally managed it last
10 week, in what can be described as a heroic effort to describe what's
11 happening in Srebrenica. Tony travelled by" --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this ...
13 [Videotape played]
14 "Reporter: American planes have -- in Bosnia has witnessed the
15 impact of the air drops.
16 "These scenes come to us from the town of Srebrenica, a place
17 almost impossible to get to. ABC's Tony Birtley finally managed it last
18 week in what can only be described as an heroic effort to let us see
19 what's happening in Srebrenica. Tony travelled by ..."
20 "Tony Birtley: American planes have successfully dropped aid into
21 this area for the last five nights running. The villagers say they
22 received only one prepared lunch packet, the rest have been --"
23 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, in the meanwhile because there should be
24 a little bit longer, the report by the person who is ten seconds and -- it
25 was around eight seconds. So we need some moments to --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes, of course.
2 [Videotape played]
3 "Tony Birtley: Planes have successfully air dropped aid into this
4 area for the last five nights running. The villagers say the received
5 only one prepared lunch packet. The rest has been taken by the army.
6 "Most people have been eating only bread" --
7 MR. WUBBEN:
8 Q. Sir, you were able to listen and see the report made by this
10 A. Yes, I'm very familiar with this journalist. I understand what
11 he said, yes.
12 Q. And you understood what he said?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What did he mean by "one prepared lunch packet and the rest taken
15 by the army"?
16 A. I don't know what he meant. I just know what he said. I was not
17 there during that particular videotaping.
18 Q. Were you ever there during the air dropping of food?
19 A. Yes, I was.
20 Q. And did you see a familiar situation? Civilians taking food and
21 the rest taken by the army?
22 A. No. The rations were dropped out of C-130 Hercules. They landed
23 up on the hilltop outside of Srebrenica, and then people would go up and
24 try and get the rations. I did not see any distinguish -- there was no
25 distinguishing between the military or army or civilians. Just people
1 went up and got the food. They would fight for the food.
2 Q. Whoever arrived?
3 A. Whoever got up there first.
4 Q. Whoever arrived or so has an advantage, isn't it?
5 A. I cannot comment on that, but --
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. WUBBEN: This is the end of this exhibit, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry. For the record, the screening ends at 3
11 minutes 07 seconds point 3.
12 MR. WUBBEN: I will move to another issue.
13 Q. When you were in Srebrenica, sir, did you -- you did never go to
14 the SUP building, didn't you?
15 A. Which?
16 Q. The SUP building.
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. Did you ever go to the headquarters of the army?
19 A. I did not go to any headquarters.
20 Q. And did you -- you did never go to the military police?
21 A. I was not aware there was military police, so I would not be able
22 to go to a building as such.
23 Q. Thank you. I would move now to another issue.
24 MR. WUBBEN: And, Your Honour, it's the final issue. It's about
25 the demilitarisation of Srebrenica in April 1992.
1 Q. Are you aware of this demilitarisation agreement dated the 18th of
2 April, 1992?
3 A. I am aware of the agreement. I have never actually seen it.
4 Q. Part of the agreement is the disarming of the Muslim forces, isn't
6 A. I believe so, yes.
7 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I would like to show now the witness a
8 new exhibit. It's a report of the 21st of April, 1993. It bears an ERN
9 number 00452158 up to 004125 -- sorry, I will repeat. 00452168, ten
11 Q. Captain, this is a report on demilitarisation of Srebrenica dated
12 the 21st of April, 1993, first page. Do you see it?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. On the subsequent page and then one of the -- there is the
15 mentioning of -- in paragraph under (a), the second line "weapons have
16 been placed in custody of UNPROFOR."
17 Are you aware that this is -- has been the implementation of the
19 A. I'm only aware according to this -- reading this document. I was
20 wounded on the 3rd of April. I spent 30 days recovering, so I was not in
21 theatre during that time, so I have no idea what happened other than
22 reading this now and having been told that this agreement was in place.
23 Q. I'll move now to a page bears ERN 00452162. And under paragraph
24 three in the middle, and I quote: "With the present UNPROFOR force level,
25 UNPROFOR cannot control the movement of weapons in the confrontation area
1 of Srebrenica and beyond. So we must regard the solution found today as a
2 symbolic first step."
3 Now, sir, do you read -- can you read that part that I quoted?
4 A. Yes, I've just read it.
5 Q. When you were in Srebrenica some weeks prior to --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.
7 Yes, Mr. Jones.
8 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. I think really for the record and
9 for the public and for the witness to ignore the fact that this is a
10 remark of the Bosnian Serb representative and just to quote it out of
11 context is improper. And this is a remark by the Bosnian Serb
12 representative, and that should be clear for everyone, otherwise there
13 might be a confusion on the part of, as I say, the witness and the public
14 and the record. Thank you.
15 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, if I may.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.
17 MR. WUBBEN: I abide by the rule not -- I abide by the rule by
18 this Trial Chamber not to state who quotes something -- who states
19 something but ask for a comment regarding a certain quotation.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but I don't think that rule applies to what we
21 have here.
22 MR. WUBBEN: Okay.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a document which is supposed -- on the face
24 of it, on the face of it, looks as if it is a report, official report, of
25 the headquarters. And it does contain the positions taken by the two
1 sides. So if what you quoted is in the report only in that it is a report
2 of the position taken by one of the sides, it must be put to -- if not to
3 the witness, who can read it himself, it must be made clear to the members
4 of the public that you're not reading, as such, from the assessment of
5 whoever drafted this report, but from the assessment of one of the parties
6 involved. So that, I think, Mr. Jones is perfectly right. The witness, I
7 think, is aware of it. But members of the public are certainly not aware
8 of it.
9 MR. WUBBEN: I understand, Your Honour. I intended to finally
10 make a kind of concluding remark on it rather than a question. But I will
11 now include it, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, okay.
13 MR. WUBBEN:
14 Q. Sir, in the report, and we see on the same page, the Bosnian Serb
15 representative and then a remark referred and linked to the Bosnian Serb
16 representative giving that information. And I quote under 3: "With the
17 present UNPROFOR force level, UNPROFOR cannot control the movement of
18 weapons in the confrontation level of Srebrenica and beyond. So we must
19 regard the solution found today as a symbolic first step."
20 Now, sir, you with your experience in Srebrenica at the time some
21 weeks prior to those remarks, do you have any comment on that? Do you
23 A. Do I agree with which part?
24 Q. With the part that such an agreement can only -- such an agreement
25 must be regarded as a symbolic first step.
1 A. I cannot comment on that. All I can say is that when I was there
2 there was one section of six or seven Canadian soldiers, and later on
3 there was, I believe, a company of soldiers. And they could not --
4 certainly could not control all the ground. 120 men cannot control that
5 size area.
6 Q. Thank you. I will move now to the page bearing ERN number
7 00452168. Here we have -- do you come to that --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, this page and a subsequent page, refer to --
10 according to the header material -- and I quote: "Material delivered to
11 UNPROFOR during demilitarisation of Srebrenica." And there are three
12 columns of dates: 19th of April, 20th of April, 21st of April, and
13 there's a column of total.
14 Now, my question to you is: As it appeared from this report, the
15 material and -- listed is the material delivered to UNPROFOR during those
16 days, isn't it?
17 A. That's what it says in this document, yes.
18 Q. Let me go through some ten of these listed weaponry and ask you a
19 question whether or not you see any of those weapons, and then I will
20 focus on heavy weaponry.
21 An M-68 APC, did you know of any used by the Muslim forces?
22 A. No, I did not.
23 Q. A light anti-aircraft gun?
24 A. I saw -- I believe I saw it on a news report one time, but I did
25 not physically see that on the ground.
1 Q. And, sir, an M-48 mountain gun?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. An anti-aircraft gun?
4 A. Which one?
5 Q. The --
6 A. 90-millimetre.
7 Q. 90-millimetre?
8 A. No, I did not.
9 Q. 82-millimetre mortars?
10 A. I did not.
11 Q. M-70 rocket launchers?
12 A. I did not.
13 Q. 20-millimetre anti-aircraft mount?
14 A. No, I did not.
15 Q. 20-millimetre guns?
16 A. No, I did not.
17 Q. An RPG 7 -- but first is it correct that -- yes, my question --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: What is an RPG so that we can follow better?
19 THE WITNESS: An RPG is a rocket launcher that can be fired by a
20 soldier and they can reload the rockets as you see them from the front.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.
22 MR. WUBBEN:
23 Q. Did you see any of those?
24 A. In Srebrenica I did not see any RPGs, no.
25 Q. And around the area of Srebrenica, as used by Muslim forces?
1 A. No, I did not.
2 Q. The subsequent page. That's ERN 00452169 almost in the middle.
3 120-millimetre bomb?
4 A. No, I did not.
5 Q. Is that bomb usually ammunition for a mortar gun?
6 A. It says "bomb" there. 120-millimetre would be consistent with a
7 120-millimetre mortar. I cannot say from that definition there.
8 Q. And last, an anti-aircraft gun carriage, did you ever saw it in
10 A. No, I did not.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones, I noticed you standing --
12 MR. JONES: Yes, I'll deal with it in re-examination.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, okay. Thank you.
14 Yes, Mr. Wubben.
15 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you tendering this?
17 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, I'm tendering, and I request a P number for it.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yaiza, you need to give me the next number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P594.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: 594. So this document which is in English, part of
21 which is handwritten and part of which also consists of maps, totalling 12
22 pages in all, with ERN 00452158 to and including 00452169 is being
23 tendered and marked as Prosecution Exhibit P594.
24 MR. WUBBEN: Please bear me a moment, Your Honour.
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I apologise, to re-organise.
2 Q. Sir, you stated that you didn't know any further local commanders
3 in Srebrenica, didn't you, beside the persons already mentioned by you?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And are you familiar with the name Zulfo?
6 A. No, I am not.
7 Q. Zulfo or Tursun?
8 A. No, I am not.
9 Q. Or Tursunovic?
10 A. No, I am not.
11 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. That's my final question.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Wubben.
13 And, Mr. Jones, I take it that you have a re-examination?
14 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you, Your Honour, just a few questions.
15 Re-examined by Mr. Jones:
16 Q. Now, firstly, Captain MacDonald, you were shown exhibit D902, and
17 you don't need it in front of you but you recall you were asked about
18 pressure by the Muslims on Serbian supply lines and "Serbian positions on
19 the Drina River border."
20 A. Pressure.
21 Q. Perhaps it's best if you have the document in front of you. It's
22 D902. Turn to page 6, and it's 9(b), and it's the second sentence which
23 you were directed to. "The predominant threat to the Serbs has been the
24 attacks by the Muslims against Serb supply lines and villages including
25 pressure against Serbian positions on the Drina river border."
1 A. Yes, yes, I see that.
2 Q. I firstly want to ask you this. Firstly, the reference to Serbian
3 positions, does that or not imply military position or something of the
4 military nature, when you see the term "positions."
5 A. I mean, yes, that's what it says there. Serbian positions, that's
6 what I would deduce as a military officer.
7 Q. And supply lines, Serb supply lines, that's obviously a military
8 target, a legitimate military target, is it not?
9 A. Yes, a supply line would be a term for resupply. And if you
10 targeted that, you could acquire supplies, I guess, or destroy supplies.
11 Q. And do you know whether or not that might be a reference to the
12 Serbian supply lines which were keeping up the siege of Sarajevo?
13 A. I would not be able to comment on that. I could -- I would only
14 be able to assume that, so ...
15 Q. Now, you've told us how, in your opinion, Srebrenica was under
16 siege at the relevant time and you've also told us how the Serbs were
17 obstructing food in the form of aid convoys going into Srebrenica. I
18 simply want to ask you this: If you're under siege, do you have any
19 option, apart from putting pressure on the besieging forces, or to simply
20 give up and die?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you need the witness to answer that question,
22 Mr. Jones?
23 MR. JONES: Yes, I would like it if the witness could.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, if you're starving and you have no food and
1 your food supplies have run out, then you're going to have to get food
2 somewheres else and probably use any means to do so.
3 MR. JONES:
4 Q. Now, moving to a different area, you've told us about what you saw
5 in Zeleni Jadar and how there were homes burning and how you make the
6 deduction, as you put it, that those had been set on fire. I simply want
7 to ask you this: Is that deduction confined, or is it not, to simply what
8 you saw on that day? In other words, that was a deduction you made on
9 that day based on what you saw, but it's not a deduction for all purposes
10 which you would draw when you see burning homes?
11 A. I mean, I saw that that day, but I had seen the effects of homes
12 that had been either burning or had been burned throughout former
13 Yugoslavia for almost 12 months. So you make deductions based on what you
15 Q. And when you were in Sarajevo and you saw burning houses or
16 burning buildings, you didn't draw the same deduction, did you, that it
17 had been human agency; you deducted that it had been caused by artillery
19 A. No, I didn't have to deduct it from that point because I saw it
20 happening. If I see a home that had been burned and it's stopped now,
21 then I make a deduction; but when I actually see something happening, then
22 that's an eyewitness account.
23 Q. So you'll draw different deductions depending on what you see,
24 depending on what's firing, depending on a whole host of factors?
25 A. That's correct. And if I would clarify one thing. I did patrol a
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 number of times when Konjevic Polje and Srebrenica, and I had seen homes
2 that had been burned or that had been on fire between that fire. How it
3 happened, I don't know. But there was the effects, and we saw that.
4 Q. Now, I'm turning to your report now. I'm just letting the
5 interpretation catch up. And it's D894. And you're asked about this
6 reference to cleansing.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it in front of him? Has he -- does he have it at
8 his disposal?
9 MR. JONES: I want to be sure he does. It's D894. Thank you.
10 Q. You'll see it's at the end of the second page. You'll recall
11 there was some discussion or some confusion as to whether your conclusions
12 at the very end, whether that referred to the whole period that you were
13 in former Yugoslavia, the whole period of your mission of one year, or
14 whether you were referring to something specific in the Srebrenica pocket.
15 So if you can clarify for us what your conclusions there are referring to.
16 A. This was based on things that I had seen in my whole 12 months or
17 at this point, close to the 12 months I had been there, not specifically
18 to the -- just in the Srebrenica area.
19 Q. And as concerns the Srebrenica area, did you or did you not ever
20 see cleansing, ethnic cleansing, by Bosnian Muslims in the Srebrenica
22 A. No, I did not.
23 Q. And did you or did you not see the Serbian Orthodox church in
24 Srebrenica when you were there, standing, undamaged?
25 A. Yes, I did see the church and it was not destroyed. It was not
1 damaged. It may have had some small damage to it, but it was still
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben.
4 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. I hate to interrupt, but I see
5 that there was accidentally two questions within one. We have the word
6 "cleansing" and we have the word "ethnic cleansing." It might mean the
7 same but might also have a different connotation, and --.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, okay, okay.
9 MR. WUBBEN: I would prefer two questions rather than one.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: If he, if Mr. Jones intended two things, then, yes,
11 but if he intended one thing, basically "cleansing" meaning "ethnic
12 cleansing," then it stays as -- we'll just have a confirmation from the
14 You know whether you intended two things or one thing.
15 MR. JONES: Yes. I can be more specific.
16 Q. When you were in Srebrenica, did you ever see Bosnian Muslims
17 there forcing Serbs out of the area using violence?
18 A. No, I did not.
19 Q. And in general terms, were you aware, firstly, that Serbs were
20 still living in Srebrenica, in the town?
21 A. I wouldn't have any information on that. It's quite possible.
22 Q. And were you aware from your time in Bosnia that there were
23 high-ranking members, officers of the Bosnian army who were Serbs and
24 Croats, and not necessarily of Muslim nationality?
25 A. Yes, I was.
1 Q. Now, at one point you were asked about whether Muslim forces
2 and -- sorry, whether Bosnian, the term "Bosnian" referred to Bosnian
3 Muslims, whether that in turn might be interchangeable with the Bosnian
4 army. I want to be very clear about that. Are you saying that -- let me
5 put it this way. You told us that you didn't see the Bosnian army, in the
6 sense of an organised army, in Srebrenica, but you saw Muslim fighters, if
7 you like.
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. So you're not saying, are you, that the term "Muslim fighters" is
10 interchangeable with "Bosnian army"?
11 A. I really can't -- I really can't say that. You could deduce that.
12 Q. What I'm getting at there is this: You've told us, as I said,
13 that you didn't see the Bosnian army in the sense of an organised army in
14 Srebrenica, Muslim fighters?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. So those are not the same thing, Muslim fighters are not identical
17 with the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
18 A. Correct. What I saw was civilian men that had weapons who were
19 defending themselves, but not necessarily an organised military force.
20 Q. All right. Now, you were asked about the use of ribbons in order
21 to -- in order that people in an action might avoid killing people who
22 were on the same side, broadly speaking. And it was suggested to you that
23 that might substitute for a uniform. Now, you told us yesterday that
24 uniforms are important for morale, for recognising different ranks, for
25 discipline, for a command structure. Would you say that ribbons can
1 substitute for all those things? So you didn't need uniforms, ribbons
2 were enough for an organised, disciplined army, or were you say something
4 A. There are historical examples of where people have used other ways
5 to distinguish themselves in lieu of having a uniform. So, yes, ribbons
6 could be used. It would be -- if you have nothing else, if you don't have
7 a uniform, that might be something that you could use to distinguish
8 possibly even a commander or who the soldiers were or different units.
9 It's possible, yes. You could paint faces, which had been done in
10 Scotland, for example.
11 Q. But firstly, would that be simply for the purpose of that action
12 and for as long as that action endured?
13 A. Yes, it would be something that you could put on or take off
14 during that action, yes.
15 Q. And in terms of having different ranks, wouldn't that imply
16 different-coloured ribbons in order to be able to distinguish between, as
17 you said, a commander and someone else? It wouldn't do to have just one
19 A. I guess it would depend on what was available to use. If you had
20 something different and -- the key thing would be that everybody that was
21 working under that commander knew what that distinguishing mark was, same
22 as a rank.
23 Q. And if you had a system of using ribbons or bandages, then of
24 course anyone not wearing a ribbon or bandage would not be part of that
25 system. Would that be correct?
1 A. That's entirely possible.
2 Q. And, of course, if civilians were also wearing ribbons, bandages,
3 et cetera, then the purpose of distinguishing actual fighters from
4 civilians would be lost, would it not?
5 A. That's entirely possible, yes.
6 Q. And finally on this, can you -- can you answer this. If you only
7 had ribbons, no uniforms whatsoever, only ribbons, and no barracks, no
8 charts of organisation, equipment, no system of giving armies, no armoury,
9 no salaries, would you say that -- that nonetheless ribbons are perfectly
10 sufficient to have an organised military structure?
11 A. No, they would not.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, you were asked about a tank which you saw. Are
13 you aware whether the Bosnians actually had shells for those -- for the
14 tank that you saw?
15 A. They may have had one or two, but that's certainly not enough.
16 They didn't have fuel, and I believe one of the tracks on that vehicle
17 had been destroyed or damaged as well. So the fact that they had it was
18 of no real use to them.
19 Q. And can you tell us roughly how much a tank round weighs?
20 A. One tank round could weigh up to -- well, 50 kilos -- no, 100
21 pounds, so, yeah, 50 kilos. It's quite heavy.
22 Q. Would it be right that general resupply of artillery and tank
23 rounds would have to be done by a vehicle, given the heaviness of those
25 A. Yes, that's one of the biggest difficulties in military operations
1 is resupplies, particularly of artillery and tank rounds because of their
2 weight and their size.
3 Q. And are you aware whether the Bosnians in Srebrenica had resupply
4 by road, by lorries, for artillery and tank rounds?
5 A. As far as I was aware, they had no vehicles. And any resupply
6 that they may have had was done by foot or by mule or donkey, and then on
7 a very limited basis.
8 Q. And would it be possible to carry hundreds of artillery and tank
9 rounds by mule or donkey from -- I suppose Tuzla would be the nearest
11 A. No, they would probably focus on small-arms ammunition for AK-47s.
12 Q. Now, finally on this document you were shown concerning
13 demilitarisation, I appreciate that you were not there and therefore
14 there's a limited amount you can tell us about it.
15 MR. JONES: But nonetheless if the witness could be shown P594,
17 Q. Now, I'll ask you firstly to turn to the last two pages -- in
18 fact, before you go there, I want to direct your attention to the
19 following page. So one moment, please. Yes, it's page -- it's the second
20 page and it's 3(f). And it refers to the fact of the town of Srebrenica
21 should agree to be a demilitarised area.
22 Now, is it correct from that, and perhaps is it your own
23 understanding, that the agreement concerned an area which was to be
24 demilitarised, as opposed to a side, if I may put it that way?
25 A. It was my impression that the area out to eight kilometres from
1 the centre part of Srebrenica was the area to be demilitarised, as they
2 term it.
3 Q. So when we turn to this list at the end, material delivered to
4 UNPROFOR during demilitarisation of Srebrenica, you -- firstly, it doesn't
5 say that these were delivered by the Bosnian Muslims or by the Bosnian
6 Serbs, does it?
7 A. No, it does not.
8 Q. So we don't know from this document who delivered this material to
10 A. That would be correct.
11 Q. And it doesn't say either, does it, whether any of these weapons
12 were actually functioning, simply that they were delivered?
13 A. That would be correct.
14 Q. And what you told us about problems of resupply for artillery
15 rounds and tank shells, would that apply to the ammunition required for
16 any of the heavy artillery which we see listed there?
17 A. I didn't quite understand what you were asking there. Can you
18 rephrase that?
19 Q. Yes. In this list your attention was drawn to various items of
20 heavy artillery. As far as the Bosnian Muslims are concerned, would your
21 comments about the difficulty of resupply apply for those weapons, too?
22 A. Yes. Any of the weapons that are in this list, there would be
23 great difficulties in re supplying, even if they had the ammunition for
24 those particular types of weapons.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, I believe when you were in Croatia you worked,
1 actually, on demilitarisation issues. Would that be correct?
2 A. That was one of my main tasks during that time, during those six
3 months that I was in Karlovac.
4 Q. Well, I want to direct your attention to page 2, and it's 3(b).
5 It's the first sentence. "There was insufficient time to do more than
6 tour the area by vehicle in order to satisfy both sides that the area
7 contained no military formations or personnel."
8 Now, firstly, would you understand from that that a tour was
9 conducted in order to satisfy both sides that there was indeed no military
10 formations or personnel?
11 A. One of the jobs of the military observers or the protection force
12 troops would be to familiarise themselves with the area. It says here
13 they didn't have time, so they would have tried to do as much as they
14 could based on the amount of time, to see what they could see.
15 Q. And this agreement has been signed, in fact, hasn't it? A
16 demilitarisation agreement was signed by both representatives?
17 A. Yes, it was signed by the commanding officer of the Canadian
18 Battalion, the Bosnian Serb rep, and the Bosnian Muslim rep.
19 Q. And from your experience of demilitarisations, would that be a
20 common feature, that there should be no military formations or personnel
21 within the demilitarised area?
22 A. Yes, that would be correct.
23 Q. Now, finally on this theme you told us -- you said that 120 men,
24 i.e., the Canadian Infantry Company who came in, couldn't control the
25 area. May we take it from that that -- nor could they defend the area
1 against any attack from the verbs? They wouldn't be in a position to do
2 so successfully?
3 A. The UNPROFOR forces were sent in to former Yugoslavia with
4 self-defence pretty much only. So if they were attacked, they certainly
5 would defend themselves. But if there was an overwhelming force, then 120
6 men would have a difficult time with the limited amount of weapons that
7 they had to defend themselves. Because the forces were supposed to have
8 cease-fire, so they're not supposed to attack you.
9 Q. And 1995 proved, in fact, that it wasn't possible for the UN to
10 protect this area. Correct?
11 A. That's what happened, yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. JONES: No further questions.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones.
15 Judge Brydensholt, do you have any questions? Yes.
16 Judge Brydensholt would like to put a question to you, Captain.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: We saw a picture of your liaison officer or
19 person to the authorities in Srebrenica. How was he introduced to you?
20 Do you remember that?
21 A. Yes, Your Honour. He -- he came to the PTT and said that he would
22 be our liaison officer. I remember talking to him. He was not from
23 Srebrenica. He had come from -- in fact, he had been living outside of
24 former Yugoslavia in some other country and had actually come back to, as
25 he had put it, to fight or to help out with his people's cause. So who he
1 was working for or how he came to be in Srebrenica exactly, I'm not sure.
2 But he came and said he would be our go-between. And that's essentially
3 how I dealt with people on -- for most of the year that I worked in former
4 Yugoslavia, through a liaison officer, whether it was Croat forces in
5 Croatia, the Serbian Krajina, Sarajevo, and Serb forces, Bosnian Serb
7 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Did he stay in the PTT building as well? Did
8 he live there, I mean, or did he live other places?
9 A. I do not know where he lived. He did not stay in the PTT building
10 as far as I'm concerned.
11 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: And I take it that you don't know to who he
13 A. No. I was not the team leader for the military observers. I had
14 other tasks. So the team leader may have known a lot more. I assume he
15 would have known a lot more. I just talked to this guy a couple of times.
16 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser.
18 JUDGE ESER: Captain MacDonald, I just have a follow-up question.
19 Have you been aware of any negotiations going on, either in the PTT
20 building or in any other building?
21 A. Negotiation --
22 JUDGE ESER: Negotiations between UNPROFOR and people from the
23 Muslim side?
24 A. The primary task during the, I guess, week or eight days I was in
25 there was to negotiate convoys of humanitarian aid in from the Bosnian
1 Serb side to the confrontation line, into Srebrenica. That was the main
2 task at that time. So -- I spent most of my time conducting either foot
3 patrols, vehicle patrols, or radio communications. That was my main task.
4 So that's why I didn't have a lot of dealings with any personnel. I spent
5 a lot of time up on the hill above Srebrenica trying to talk to military
6 observers outside of the pocket.
7 JUDGE ESER: But if there have been negotiations going on, there
8 must have been two sides, and have you any idea who had been on the Muslim
9 side within these negotiations?
10 A. I'm sorry, I was not aware, not involved in that. Also, another
11 key thing to think about. We did not have computers or anything at that
12 time. If you think back to 1992, 1993, we had very limited computers. So
13 if the team leader had a lot of stuff up in his mind and he didn't brief
14 us, then, you know, he had it. We only had one meeting. There was so
15 much chaos in Srebrenica at that time for us, we had one meeting on the
16 2nd of April, and then of course I was wounded the next day and
17 Med-Evac'ed on the 4th.
18 JUDGE ESER: Now, just for the sake of clarification I would like
19 to ask you. You spoke of defence lines. I think one was in the wider
20 area of Konjevic Polje, another one was closer to Potocari. How would you
21 describe, according to your experience or the actual knowledge, how would
22 a defence line consist of? How would it be built up?
23 A. A defence line may not be built-up at all. It may just be -- it
24 could be anything. If you think about a line of confrontation, there is
25 no set distance between two forces. It's all based on mostly terrain.
1 Sometimes two can -- opposing forces could be within metres of each other.
2 Other times, based on terrain, it could be kilometres. When I was in
3 Srebrenica, we were not aware of any actual defensive positions dug. I
4 don't -- I wouldn't say they had the equipment to do that. And because of
5 the fluid action where there may have been movement back and forth, it's
6 not possible to continuously dig in. So a line of confrontation may
7 simply be where somebody is. And you can move very quickly. You can fall
8 back to a new location, or if you can attack, it will change. So we were
9 just aware of the line at that point, being Konjevic Polje on the 12th of
10 April; then when we went in and we actually came up to the spot where we
11 saw Bosnian Serb forces, then it was -- now a deduction, this is now the
12 line. And in between you might be able to see the distance, where the
13 next checkpoint is for whatever forces or whoever might be guarding on the
14 other side. It could be a hundred metres.
15 JUDGE ESER: So would you agree that instead of defence line we
16 should -- you could also or perhaps even better speak of confrontation
18 A. We normally use line of confrontation as the term.
19 JUDGE ESER: Now, coming back to your own report, that is D894,
20 and I don't think we need you to put it on the ELMO. You wrote "near the
21 village Zeleni Jadar, the Bosnian soldiers were massing for an attack."
22 That's your wording. Now, we already clarified that when you
23 spoke of soldiers you meant it in terms of any people, including civilians
24 wearing weapons, regardless whether being uniformed or not.
25 A. That is correct.
1 JUDGE ESER: Now, what do you mean with "massing"?
2 A. There was -- there was 1 or 200 men all bunched up together. And
3 when I say "massing," they're gathering to do something. Whether it's an
4 attack or maybe withdraw, I don't know. The -- all I do know is when I
5 got up on top of the hill, Zeleni Jadar was under shell fire from
6 122-millimetre artillery. And if you're not dug in, as I just mentioned,
7 and all you've got is rifles, then at that point you can deduce that
8 they're either getting ready to do an attack, a counter-attack. If
9 somebody comes into the forces -- if the Bosnian Serb forces are going to
10 attack into Zeleni Jadar, they have to lift their artillery, otherwise
11 they're going to get injured. So this force that we saw was either going
12 to then do one of two things. They were either going to wait for the
13 artillery to lift and then counter-attack as the Bosnian Serb forces came
14 into Zeleni Jadar, or they were going to withdraw to safety.
15 JUDGE ESER: Now, you spoke of gathering. Is this gathering to be
16 understood as purely accidental or that it was some sort of coordination
17 or to come -- to get together and to form either defensive attack or some
18 other action?
19 A. As I said earlier, Zeleni Jadar was deemed to be a key
20 intersection. How coordinated it was, I cannot give you any information
21 on that. I don't know.
22 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser. That brings your testimony
24 to an end, Captain MacDonald. For the record, your surname is Mac, M-a-c,
25 and then Donald, the two parts together?
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. So that's for -- I knew it was like that,
3 but for the record I want to make sure that it is entered correctly.
4 Yes, I thank you, Captain. Your testimony ends here. On behalf
5 of Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser, and on my own behalf and also on behalf
6 of the Tribunal in general, I should like to thank you for having come
7 over to give testimony in this case as a Defence witness. Our usher,
8 together with the rest of the staff of this Tribunal now, will assist you
9 and finalise arrangements for your return to wherever your destination is.
10 And on behalf of everyone present here, I should like to wish you a safe
11 journey back home.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
14 So let's -- I need to talk to you for a few minutes.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Number one, it seems that this witness has finished
17 one day ahead of schedule. Thursday, as I explained yesterday, we would
18 have had the problem of the plenary and we could have shifted the sitting
19 to the afternoon, but we needed two hours. In any case, it seems that we
20 are not sitting. Is there a possibility of your bringing over a witness
21 who could start either on Thursday or Friday, Madam Vidovic?
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Unfortunately not.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's too bad. All right.
24 May I remind you of a couple of things. I think end of this week,
25 Friday we are to expect from you any indication of any witnesses you would
1 like to bring back; that's number one. There was another deadline
2 involved. You also need to respond to the Prosecution filing as soon as
3 you can so that we can deal with this matter at the earliest. If you can
4 file it by tomorrow, then it is quite possible that I will -- of course,
5 it's my two colleagues agree. If there is need to discuss the matter,
6 that we try and convene on Friday. However, I need to discuss this with
7 my two colleagues first. So if there are problems relating to disclosure
8 as they might arise from the filing that we've had plus your response,
9 please try to update us by the end of work tomorrow. And then we will try
10 and contact you later on.
11 The other thing --
12 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: The other thing is that you will recall that during
14 the week we were not sitting, we were working, you were working, I, after
15 consultation with my two colleagues, extended the period within which
16 the -- your expert was to finalise his examination of -- by eight days.
17 And I take it that the eight days will lapse or expire tomorrow. I want
18 to make sure that you are in contact with your expert to ensure that this
19 matter is not prolonged any further than what we established so that in
20 addition arrangements can be made by the registry for the recovery of the
21 documents and return -- their return to their -- to the Tribunal, to the
22 Prosecution in particular.
23 The other thing that I wish to tell you is this, that after
24 Friday, after we've had this list from you, if there are witnesses to be
25 brought back, we need to sit down together and make a re-assessment of the
1 situation as it obtains now and, if necessary, review the date by which
2 you are expected to finish your case. So we'll -- my advice is that you
3 start working on this. Try to be as practical and as cooperative as
4 possible. Our responsibility is to try and finish the earliest possible.
5 And for that to happen is to try and avoid repetitive evidence. I think
6 we have come to a stage where both sides should know exactly where, more
7 or less, you stand, where is the strength or the weakness of the
8 Prosecution case and concentrate accordingly.
9 Yes, Mr. Jones.
10 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. In that spirit last week we -- we
11 conducted a planned revision of our witness list and we were planning to
12 submitted a motion this week to drop some witnesses and add one or two,
13 but with a net saving in any event of quite a few days. So that's
14 something that we should be able to file this week.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So that's it. I think I'll come back to
16 you on this -- on all of these matters on Monday when we reconvene. Yes,
17 we are not sitting Monday. Tuesday, or earlier if we need to meet again
18 later on this week on outstanding matters. All right? Thank you.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.00 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of
21 November, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.