Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14776

1 Monday, 12 December 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could

6 you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the Case

8 Number IT-03-68, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my own language.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Oric, good morning to you. You may

14 sit down.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, also good morning to my

17 learned friends from the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for

18 the Prosecution. I am here together -- included in my team, Mr. Gramsci

19 Di Fazio, Ms. Joanne Richardson, our case manager, Ms. Donnica

20 Henry-Frijlink, and our acting case manager, Ms. Sanja Bokulic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben.

22 Appearances for the Defence.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

24 morning to my learned friends from the OTP. My name is Vasvija Vidovic,

25 and together with Mr. John Jones, I appear for Mr. Naser Oric. We have

Page 14777

1 with us our legal assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic, our CaseMap manager,

2 Mr. Geoff Roberts, and in the course of the day, our other legal

3 assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, will join us.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

5 So are there any preliminaries?

6 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would wish to

9 challenge the authenticity of the documents delivered by the Prosecutor on

10 the list of exhibits for examination, and I wish to do so outside the

11 presence of the witness, if I may be allowed.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness is not here, so you can proceed. Which

13 documents are you referring to?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will be enumerating all of the

15 documents, and I have the following objection in relation to all the

16 documents. One cannot see the date of drafting of the document, who

17 issued the document, who signed the document, the source is listed as the

18 Serb source; however, the Prosecutor has not shown us the chain of custody

19 in relation to the documents. And the documents are namely 0211 up until

20 589; then 0211 until 5290. The purported document of the Army of Bosnia

21 and Herzegovina, 8th Operational Group, 282 East Bosnian Brigade. Then

22 document 0211-6740. And the document 0211-6742. There's a list

23 containing 30 names which is unclear. Then the document 0211-6793. Then

24 0211-6803. Purportedly by the Kazani unit. It's a list of names. Then

25 the following document 0211-6757, and document 0211-6758 which purports to

Page 14778

1 be a list of wounded fighters, members of the armed forces of Srebrenica,

2 dating from 1993.

3 Then document 0211-5743 and document 0211-5746. These are various

4 lists. Then document --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let me stop you because then it will

6 become too much for me to correct later. The -- in the transcript we

7 are -- when we look at the list ourselves, we are being told, for example,

8 with regard to this last document 0211-5743 and 0211-5764, it shouldn't be

9 0211-5743, it starts with 02115743. The next thing with regard to this

10 document is, out of the last two digits, 64 or 46? Because on the sheet

11 of paper that we were given by the Prosecution it says "5764." What we

12 heard on the transcript is 5746 and perhaps Mr. Di Fazio can --

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can clarify. This is

14 what I said 02115764.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please and if I may be of

19 assistance, these are precisely the documents I intend to start off with

20 this morning, so what I propose, if it's okay, is that I simply go about

21 my cross-examination and I'll produce them into evidence. And then

22 perhaps at the end of the proceedings, Madam Vidovic --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Can refer to the document number --

24 MR. DI FAZIO: -- As a P-number and if they would put on the record

25 that "We object," it might be simpler.

Page 14779

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it will be more practical if we do it that

2 way because there will be a reference a specific reference to the document

3 number or the exhibit number that way.

4 And I think with regard to the first one I think there was a

5 mistake, too, in the transcript --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Your Honour, we can do it the following way. I will

7 correct this with the court reporter over the break, in order to save time

8 now. And now that I have already started I would like to finish. I have

9 only two more groups of documents remaining, otherwise it will remain

10 unclear for the transcript.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Vidovic.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then document 0211-6784, 02116811

13 and document 02115908, 02115938, and finally 02115712, 02115712.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So basically I just want to make this

15 clear in my mind. You're not challenging 02115774 to 5781?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we've done that

17 earlier.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, you haven't done that. That hasn't been

19 challenged as yet.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. This is OTP's P570. I believe

21 that's the document that we announced that we would challenge its

22 authenticity, and we do so now for the same reason.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. So eventually, registrar, please

24 will take note of the corresponding exhibit number that we will give to

25 these documents and my staff will ensure that they are registered as

Page 14780

1 challenged documents.

2 Any further preliminary? Yes, Mr. Jones.

3 MR. JONES: Yes, there is one housekeeping matter for the next

4 witness and it's simply to work out now whether he's likely to testify

5 today and it's because it's not just a question of him but he has two US

6 government representatives who would also attend court and they're waiting

7 to see whether he would be needed today.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you for that observation. In fact I

9 was coming to that myself, waiting to see whether you had anything to say

10 in regard to Lieutenant Colonel Dudley.

11 Mr. Di Fazio, how long are you going to take in having this

12 witness testify?

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Goodly part of the day, but there's a possibility

14 that we might end up if the re-examination is not too lengthy and there's

15 not much from the Bench, then it's possible we might have some time at the

16 end of the day, albeit a shorter period of time, I was thinking maybe half

17 an hour or so, I can't predict with huge certainty. I'm certainly going

18 to go a couple of hours.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope you are both aware that we --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: -- Will finish at 12.15.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: -- there will be only one break and we'll finish at

22 12.15 because I have another sitting afterwards.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You know that. To make up for the lost time today I

25 am proposing to you that we -- on Wednesday we start at 8.00 instead of

Page 14781

1 9.00. I hope that is acceptable to both of you.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it is necessary, things being what they are.

4 All right? Okay. So when you say that you are aware that we will be

5 finishing at 12.15 today.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: What time do you have the break?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going to have one break in an hour and a

8 half's time from when we started, so about 10.30.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: 10.30 for half an hour.


11 MR. DI FAZIO: Why don't we revisit the situation then --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Under normal circumstances we could do that easily,

13 with relative ease, I would say, but now we also have the representatives

14 of the American embassy, US embassy, who need to be present, so they need

15 to be advised in a timely fashion.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Right now?

17 MR. JONES: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It wouldn't be very courteous on my part to tell

19 them 15 minutes before come running.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Exactly, Your Honour. I -- in that case, I would

21 say that there is a substantial possibility that we'll find ourselves at

22 the end of today with about half an hour or thereabouts to go with no

23 witness to occupy, unless they're here.

24 MR. JONES: In that case, may I propose releasing the witness for

25 today, the next witness, and simply we start first thing tomorrow.

Page 14782

1 Because in addition -- I mean, in addition to the matter that it's the

2 two -- in fact three lawyers, US government lawyers and the witness who

3 will be waiting, there's also a question of making arrangements for them

4 to sit in the court and I think it would be more practical just to release

5 everyone for today and we start first thing tomorrow, if Your Honour

6 agrees.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's a more practical approach.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Of course, from our point of view, that's fine.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you both.

12 Usher, could you please escort the witness.

13 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I just flag that up for tomorrow

14 that -- for the US government representatives? They were asking where

15 they would be seated in the court and what arrangements would be made to

16 bring them from the lobby, et cetera, and if that could just be taken in

17 hand by the registry. Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think usually we have them sit where they can --

19 we can catch their eye with relative ease, if they need to intervene.

20 They could sit over there, over there.

21 MR. JONES: They wanted to be somewhere neutral.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but somewhere neutral, where would you put

23 them? The only other place is where members of my staff usually sit.

24 That is another possibility, and I think that perhaps is the best

25 solution. And any other member of my staff would sit elsewhere, anyway.

Page 14783

1 All right.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that agreeable to both of you?

4 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The important thing is they do not have eye-to-eye

6 contact with the witness or be able to suggest anything to him. That's

7 all. Yes.

8 Mr. Smajlovic, good morning to you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope you had a good rest for the weekend. We are

11 going to continue and hopefully finish with your testimony today. May I

12 remind you that you will -- are still testifying pursuant to the solemn

13 declaration that you made the first day you testified, namely to speak the

14 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but truth. Mr. Di Fazio will be

15 proceeding with his cross-examination, and then if it's the case there

16 will be a re-examination and some questions from the Bench.

17 Mr. Di Fazio.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]

22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Smajlovic. I was asking you on Friday about

23 some -- about some --

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. Thank you. I was asking you on Friday about some of your

Page 14784

1 colleagues, fighting colleagues. And I want to ask you now about some

2 names and whether you know the people. Sal -- and I may not pronounce

3 the names correctly. I apologise if that causes inconvenience. Do you

4 know a fellow named Salih Zejnilagic?

5 A. No, Your Honour.

6 Q. Ibro Salkic?

7 A. No, Your Honour.

8 Q. Mehmedalija Ulic or Julic?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Can the witness be shown this particular --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I would feel, Mr. Di Fazio -- I'm sorry to say it at

12 this late hour in the case, but I've been thinking about this. Sometimes

13 I get the suspicion that you mispronounce - when I say "you" it's not just

14 you, it's several - mispronounce these local names and sometimes this may

15 have been taken advantage of by witnesses. I would prefer if you have

16 these names properly spelled out on a piece of paper --

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: -- that you pronounce it whichever way you like but

19 the witness is shown the name and the surname in -- as it should be. It

20 would make me feel more comfortable that they know exactly who they are

21 being asked about.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that, Your Honour. I think sometimes

23 I'm okay. My colleagues may not -- yes, I --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: But this is Monday morning, Mr. Di Fazio.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. Well, perhaps I'll just show the

Page 14785

1 document to the witness and perhaps with the writing it might be easier.

2 Just if the witness can be shown this one document, just the one document

3 02116758 and its English translation which is ...

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And many a time I am sure the witness don't --

5 witnesses don't understand exactly who you are referring to. And I want

6 to put this matter --

7 MR. DI FAZIO: No, I agree with Your Honour. It's a question of

8 fairness to the witness, too. All right.

9 Q. There's some handwritten names there. This is a document on -- we

10 don't need to beat about the bush. It speaks for itself. It

11 says "wounded fighters that were members of the Srebrenica armed forces,

12 February 1993," and you can see -- you can see some names there, which I

13 think now might be clear -- clearer. Avdo Smajlovic, that's your father,

14 isn't it?

15 A. I can't find Avdo Smajlovic here anywhere.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't see it either, Mr. Di Fazio.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: May I just see what is --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: There is Emir Smajlovic, there is Suad Smajlovic.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand what the problem is. There are two

20 B/C/S documents there. I want to show the witness one. The B/C/S

21 document has the ERN number 02116758, and it consists of four names. And

22 I would ask that Madam Usher put that on the ELMO, and that's the document

23 that I want the witness to look at.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: The second page.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay.

Page 14786

1 Q. Now, this is a -- you have the right document now I think and you

2 can see there are four names and it seems to be a list of wounded fighters

3 for February of 1993. Now, you've given evidence about who Avdo Smajlovic

4 is. What about the remainder, the other three names there? Do you

5 recognise any of those names?

6 A. No, I do. I don't recognise any of them.

7 Q. Okay. And the document suggests that your father was wounded on

8 the 2nd of February, 1993, at a place called Andrici. Do you have any

9 knowledge of that?

10 A. No. I don't have any knowledge of that. The reason being -- may

11 I continue?

12 Q. Oh, yes, please. Tell us.

13 A. Is that my father's wound was quite small. He was simply hit by a

14 stone that must have been set in motion by a shell. And this wasn't even

15 noted that he was wounded. This happened in April when fiercest battles

16 for the defence of Srebrenica took place, when we were all on the defence

17 lines defending the town trying to prevent the Serbs from entering the

18 town. That was the second reason for that. Thirdly, I was not that much

19 concerned with either the lives of my mother or my father but simply to

20 save the people as a whole. I was unable to be with my father at the same

21 spot where he was at the time when this happened.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I tender the document.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And you are tendering this document as one document,

25 I take it?

Page 14787

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that's how I propose to -- this is a different

2 list --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. What's the next number, let me now?

4 THE REGISTRAR: P612, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: P612. So this document which consists of two pages,

6 one with ERN 02116757 and the other one 02116758, is being tendered and

7 marked as Prosecution Exhibit P612.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. I'd like to -- perhaps just one other

9 question not in relation to any particular document.

10 Q. Did you ever keep anyone -- or rather, did anyone in your group

11 ever have the job of writing records or keeping records, records relating

12 to membership of your group, the Kazani group?

13 A. No. I said so earlier. There were no records kept, no reports

14 written, because we did not have the time for that. We were fighting for

15 our own skin at the time.

16 Q. Yes. And I think you said also that paper was so rare, so rare,

17 that you couldn't even roll cigarettes. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's right. That's what I said the other time. That's

19 true. We didn't have paper for rolling cigarettes, let alone for writing

20 something on paper.

21 Q. And that shortage of paper continued throughout 1993 and into --

22 sorry, throughout 1992 and into early 1993?

23 A. Not only until that date but until the end of the war.

24 Q. All right. And you certainly would not have had enough paper, if

25 what you say is correct, to create lists such as the one that I just

Page 14788

1 showed you?

2 A. I repeat, we did not have either the time or the paper to do as

3 much, because we were saving our own skins from the attacks on the town of

4 Srebrenica and the general area of Srebrenica.

5 Q. Okay. And this paper shortage, such that documents couldn't be

6 created, did that -- was that also in Srebrenica town itself, that's the

7 actual town, not the municipality, but in the town, was it the case that

8 there wasn't -- just simply wasn't paper to write on?

9 A. I repeat, it was not only in the town of Srebrenica that there was

10 a war, but rather in the general area of Srebrenica.

11 Q. We can get through this quickly. I understand what you're saying,

12 and I understand exactly what you're saying about the harsh conditions and

13 the war, but it's a simple question. This acute shortage of paper was

14 existing throughout 1992, early 1993, and existed in the town of

15 Srebrenica itself. Am I correct?

16 A. I repeat, I had my own group and I was with my group. I wasn't

17 concerned with seeing whether there was paper or not. I was on the front

18 lines trying to save peoples' lives.

19 Q. All right. Thank you. We'll move on.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, before you move on because there's

22 something about this document that I would like to query. Last line on

23 the first page of this document there is a signature, and there is what

24 looks like the same signature on the other page, too. Perhaps the witness

25 can have a look at that signature or those signatures and tell us whether

Page 14789

1 he recognises that signature.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I need to follow exactly what Your Honour's saying.

3 Is Your Honour talking about what is now P612, consisting of one page

4 right?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes -- consisting of two pages.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: May I see the exhibit, if Your Honours please?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What we have enrolled, registered as P612

8 contains two pages, the first one where the witness's name appear, and the

9 second one where his father's name appear.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And at the bottom of -- not exactly at the bottom of

12 that but at the end of the area which is handwritten there is a signature

13 on both pages. If he could recognise -- if he recognises that signature.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's number one. And secondly, I would like you

16 to agree that the English translation of the first page which says at the

17 very end "finished with number 151 (15)" it's -- it is wrong. It

18 shouldn't be 151 but 15, and then it's a bracket, petnaste [phoen] 15 and

19 there is no 15 written on the original. 15 and then open bracket.

20 Do you follow me or not? Yeah.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, it finishes with number 15. Your Honour is

23 looking at March, the March list. Is that correct?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay. I had in fact intended and I was proceeding

Page 14790

1 on the basis that February and March were going to be different exhibits

2 and that's why --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: If we want, we can change it, but I would suggest

4 that, to avoid confusion, we leave it as it is now.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: It's quicker and I want to move through this as

6 fast as I can.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But does the witness recognise that signature?

8 Have you seen this signature in your life?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I've never seen

10 this signature.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

12 That's it. Let's continue.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I'd just like to move on to another document now if

14 I may. I'd like the witness to be shown a document bearing ERN number

15 02116793 through to 02116803, which is a list consisting of 238 names.

16 The translation, if Your Honours please, is incomplete, but it at least

17 has the name of the columns and so on, so you'll be able to work out

18 anything on the remaining pages using that as a guide and we'll undertake

19 to provide you with the full translation as soon as it can be done.

20 Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment.

21 Q. This document is another list and it seems to be -- claims to be,

22 claims to be, a list of the unit Kazani. Do you see the heading at the

23 top?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. Okay. And we've -- I don't need to ask you about the

Page 14791

1 obvious things there, but it says that you are the -- I think it says that

2 you are the commander. Is that correct? It says "KDIR."

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right.

5 A. No. I was no commander. I was group leader, and it was a group

6 of some 30-odd people. It was no unit.

7 Q. All right. Okay. Now, just some of the names, I don't need to

8 deal with all of them, but I just want to ask you about some of them. Do

9 you know a fellow called Hasan Ikanovic, number 3 there?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You never heard of such a person?

12 A. No, I've never heard.

13 Q. And Derva Salkic, have you ever heard of such a person?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Go to number 18, Jasmin Bajric, do you see that name, still on the

16 first page. Jasmin Bajric, do you know such a person from Kazani?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What about number 20, Hazim Ahmetovic, was there such a person

19 from Kazani? Is that a real person?

20 A. Hazim Ahmetovic from Kazani, yes.

21 Q. Just turn over the page, run your finger until you get to 37.

22 You'll see that name again Salih Zjenilagic. Again, that's a name you

23 don't know I think.

24 A. That's right. I don't know the name. I said so a little bit

25 earlier.

Page 14792

1 Q. Yes, you did, you did. All right. Thank you.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I tender that document.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: This document which in the B/C/S version starts with

4 02116793 -- are they all in sequence?

5 Yes, Mr. Smajlovic, would you like to add anything?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, I would like to

7 add something. These documents, as they are -- well, in order for a

8 document -- to be a document there always had to be a heading, a

9 signature, and a stamp of the person who drafted the document; that's

10 number two. Number two, such documents could carry a

11 designation "strictly confidential," because these lists contain first and

12 last names. That's as much as I wanted to say.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for that information, Mr. Smajlovic.

14 So this document which consists of a handwritten list starting

15 with ERN 02116793 up to and inclusive of 02116805 with a translation into

16 English of part of it consisting of two pages is being tendered and marked

17 as Prosecution Exhibit P613.


19 Q. Just in that answer that you gave to His Honour you said that

20 documents always required a heading, a signature, and a stamp of the

21 person who drafted the document. Is that -- was that the normal practice

22 in 1992?

23 A. That was the customary practice in all professional armies. Since

24 we were local groups, we did not have any HQs, nothing of the sort, and

25 therefore we could not have that.

Page 14793

1 Q. Thank you. I'd like to now -- to show you one other document of a

2 similar nature.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: This, if Your Honours please bears ERN 02116740

4 through to 6742 and its English translation.

5 Q. Okay. You can see what the document's about at a glance, I think,

6 Mr. Smajlovic. First of all, let's look at your details. What's the

7 date -- your date of birth?

8 A. 4 January -- the 4th of January, 1967.

9 Q. So whoever wrote this particular document got that particular

10 detail correct. Can you see that in the first column -- second column?

11 A. Yes, I see it, but I also see it says I was a member of some kind

12 of independent Srebrenica battalion. This is the first time I've heard of

13 such a thing. As far as I know, I was only the leader of a group and it

14 should have said "Kazani" if this document were logical and correct.

15 Q. All right. I understand. Thank you for that. And further over

16 it has a column that deals with wounds and it says that you were wounded

17 on two occasions, one in -- the first occasion on the 16th of December,

18 1992. Now, that detail's correct, isn't it? That's the one -- the wound

19 at Kunjerac?

20 A. Yes, the 16th of December, 1992.

21 Q. All right. And the second -- and it also asserts that on the 24th

22 of March of the following year, 1993, you were wounded at a place called

23 Caus. Now, is that detail correct?

24 A. No. I was wounded only once, in the head.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

Page 14794

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and I apologise to you.

2 But this calls also for -- okay, no -- I'll stop here. I'll stop

3 here because you haven't made use of it as yet. Yes, go ahead,

4 Mr. Di Fazio.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay.

6 Q. I just want to ask you about some of the other names that you can

7 see there. Number 13 you've told us you don't know any such person.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Just on the first page, number 9, do you know

10 a fellow called Fikret Kaljevic from Kutlici. Is there any such person?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a place -- you could clear this up for us.

13 Is there a place where there was action at some point in time called Pous,

14 P-o-u-s with a dash on top. I don't know how to pronounce it.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Where is Your Honours looking.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I am looking at 02116757, which is P612. Number 6,

17 Mr. Di Fazio and Madam Vidovic.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Because when you referred the witness to this

20 document that he has in front of him now, you said "Caus."

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And to be honest with you, I admire your eyesight

23 because looking at that document I'm unable to decipher what that word is.

24 It could be "Caus," yes, that's true; it could be something else, I don't

25 know. But whatever it is, I think either one or the other requires an

Page 14795

1 explanation.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Sure, I understand, Your Honours. There is a place

3 called --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I have never heard of the name "Pous" myself. So

5 I'm asking the question because I want this cleared up. Pous --

6 MR. DI FAZIO: First of all, there is a place called Caus

7 that's --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a mountain and we saw it when we were in

9 Potocari. It was pointed out to us.


11 Q. Is there another place that has a similar spelling -- similar

12 spelling or similar word except spelled Pous, P-o-u-s with a dash? Are

13 you aware of any second place called Pous, P-o-u-s with a dash?

14 A. No, I'm not aware of it.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you?

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I was dealing, if Your Honours please, with the

17 last one that I wanted to show the witness which was 6757.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Not yet, we haven't given it a number yet.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, could that be tendered and be given a number.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this document which starts with ERN 02116740

21 and finishes with 02116742, that's three pages, accompanied by translation

22 thereof into English, another three pages, is being tendered and marked as

23 Prosecution Exhibit P614.


25 Q. I just want to turn now to another issue, and that's the issue of

Page 14796

1 Mr. Akif Ustic. As you know, you've testified last week, that Mr. Ustic

2 was appointed the deputy coordinator at the meeting at Bajramovici,

3 Mr. Oric coordinator, and Mr. Ustic deputy. Do we understand you

4 correctly that he was appointed deputy in charge of coordination amongst

5 the local leaders as well? That was essentially his job, purely and

6 simply, a deputy to Mr. Oric, as Mr. Oric was carrying out his duties as

7 coordinator?

8 A. Akif Ustic was appointed only deputy. That's all that was said at

9 the meeting, nothing else.

10 Q. There was no delineation of what his job was to be? No clear

11 spelling out of his tasks?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has already answered that question

13 before, Mr. Di Fazio; correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we has already

14 been very clear about it.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well, Your Honours.

16 Q. He -- Mr. Ustic and Mr. Oric, their working relationship I think

17 you said was not very good because Mr. Ustic did not accept Mr. Oric as

18 his commander. Is that correct?

19 A. It's not just that he didn't accept Oric; he was unable to agree

20 with anyone. He did what he wanted.

21 Q. He was, therefore, singularly bad at any task involving

22 coordination amongst local leaders? If he didn't get on with anyone, he

23 was probably one of the worst type of people to appoint to that position.

24 Would you agree?

25 A. I don't agree. He was an honourable and honest man. The fact

Page 14797

1 that inter-personal relations were not going well, well, I don't agree

2 with everyone in my company but we still cooperate and everything works.

3 Q. Yeah, but my point is simply this: If Mr. Ustic was to act as a

4 coordinator, deputy coordinator - deputy coordinator - amongst the local

5 leaders, his inability to -- or the fact that he has disagreements with

6 people meant that he wasn't -- a suitable choice. Would you agree with

7 that proposition?

8 A. I have just repeated again. First of all, I don't agree. If he

9 wasn't on good terms with me for Zulfo or some other leader, maybe there

10 were other leaders whom we don't know about with whom he was on good

11 terms.

12 Q. Did Mr. Oric ever make any attempt to obtain the services of a

13 deputy whom he did get along with?

14 A. I'm not aware of that because we were at the lines. We didn't

15 give it much thought. Let me repeat. At that meeting we were supposed to

16 help each other, and this body was supposed to coordinate among the

17 leaders. As I said, if one group had a clash with the Serbs and another

18 village was at risk, we would have to agree on everything. We didn't

19 think about replacing people if they were no good.

20 Q. You just described -- in talking about this you just described

21 this body being supposed to coordinate amongst the other leaders. When

22 you say "this body," are you talking about Mr. Oric and his deputy

23 command -- deputy coordinator, Mr. Akif Ustic, or are you talking about a

24 larger collection of men, this body that you just referred to?

25 A. Let me go back again to what I have just said. The body existed.

Page 14798

1 It was a body headed by Naser Oric, and his deputy was Akif Ustic. This

2 body could do something only if there was a vote. I never said there were

3 more people or lots of people in it.

4 Q. Fine. That's clarified. So the body consisted of two people:

5 Mr. Oric and his deputy. Now do I understand you correctly?

6 A. Perhaps you misunderstood me, no.

7 Q. Let's clarify. You were there, you know it best. Tell me: Who

8 was in the body? What was the body made up of? Just tell me the names.

9 Mr. Oric, Mr. Ustic, anyone else? Tell us if there was anyone else.

10 A. No, there was no one else in that body, but that body was elected

11 by a large crowd of people, the people in the neighbourhood and the local

12 leaders who were there.

13 Q. Got you. Thank you very much. You spoke from time to time in

14 your evidence in chief of methods of communication in 1992 and 1993. Do

15 you agree that communications, a system of communications, was essential

16 for the local groups to be able to act together, to fight the Serbs?

17 That's my question.

18 A. There were no communications at all. We communicated through

19 messages.

20 Q. Okay. I understand that. I understand what you've said about the

21 state of -- the state of communications. I'm asking you: What would have

22 been desirable, what would have been good to have? Do you agree that

23 having a system of communications would have helped you, would have

24 facilitated, the action of the local groups fighting the Serbs? Thinking

25 back now, do you think that would have been a good thing?

Page 14799

1 A. I don't want to comment on that question.

2 Q. Why not? It's not difficult. I mean, it's a very simple

3 proposition. All I'm saying to you is this: A system of communication,

4 whatever it be, couriers, radios, or any other method at all, is desirable

5 when local groups, local fighting groups, are working together to fight

6 the Serbs. Would you agree with that basic proposition?

7 A. Let me tell you again, I wouldn't want to comment on that because

8 as I already said we communicated by sending messages and there were no

9 communications among the local groups.

10 Q. Well, I won't press the matter.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.

12 Judge Eser.

13 JUDGE ESER: I just have a question because it may be a problem of

14 translation. You agreed -- Witness, you agreed that there has been -- may

15 have been messages between different groups. Now -- but you deny today

16 that there was communication. But my question is: Isn't exchanging

17 messages also a form of communication, or do you mean with "communication"

18 something different?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know and as far as I

20 learned in the professional army from 1997 onwards, communications are

21 considered only means of communication being used to communicate between

22 two persons.

23 JUDGE ESER: Yeah, what means of communication are you thinking

24 of? Could you give an example for a sort of communication you have in

25 mind?

Page 14800

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm referring to means of

2 communication used by professional military services. Issuing orders,

3 information, and so on, through means of communication.

4 JUDGE ESER: I still have a problem. You see, if I send a message

5 to another person and I get an answer from another person, you could call

6 this communication; you communicate between two different people. Now, my

7 question is: When you talk of "communication" and when you say that

8 sending messages back and forth would not be a communication, what do you

9 mean with "communication"? Do you mean the communication needs some

10 technical device or what else?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course you need technical devices

12 for communications. These were simply messages. If you tell me to go, I

13 go, but there's no reply. But if you put a question to me through a

14 communication technical device, then I can send you a reply, and then

15 that's communication.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Judge Eser.

17 Mr. Di Fazio.


19 Q. Well, I want to wrap this up. Would you agree with me that if

20 you'd have had radios, that would have helped, radio sets using wireless

21 radios, mechanical devices called radios, amongst the local groups, that

22 would have helped you greatly in being able to act together in order to

23 take on the Serbs, to fight the Serbs. Would you agree with that

24 proposition?

25 A. There's a point where I disagree with you. The configuration of

Page 14801

1 the terrain in Srebrenica is such that in peacetime, before the war,

2 communications did not work properly. In Srebrenica we had a receiver

3 with only one channel and we could never get any other programme, apart

4 from that one channel, because it's in a valley. The Srebrenica area is

5 surrounded by high mountains.

6 Q. Are you saying -- are you saying that radio equipment, radio

7 communications equipment, was of little use in the Srebrenica area, the

8 Srebrenica area, and areas where you saw action because of the geography,

9 because of the mountains? Is that what you're saying?

10 A. No. That's not what I said. First of all, we didn't have any

11 means of communication. And your question was: Would it have been

12 easier? I explained to you why, even if we had had means of

13 communication, how it would have functioned. But, I repeat, we had no

14 communication devices.

15 Q. All right. Yes. I understand that. Thank you.

16 So did you try and overcome that by using a system of couriers?

17 And I'm talking about the local fighting groups of course. Did they try

18 to overcome the lack of communications with each other by introducing a

19 system of couriers?

20 A. Let me repeat. There were no couriers. A courier is also a means

21 of communication. We communicated through messages. If a village was

22 attacked, somebody came and said the village was attacked. There was no

23 return information. Nobody responded saying whether they would come to

24 help or not. These were just ordinary people coming to ask for help when

25 they were under attack.

Page 14802

1 Q. Did you ever go to the PTT building in Srebrenica town?

2 A. During the war, no; before the war, yes.

3 Q. Did you ever see any radio communications systems in that

4 building?

5 A. No. Before the war I only went to the post office to pay my

6 bills, my utilities. I never saw any means of communication there or

7 anything like that. It was never in the public part of the building.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry.

9 [Prosecution counsel confer]

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]


13 Q. The local fighting groups held -- contained a number of policemen,

14 didn't they? You were one of -- you were a policeman and other policemen

15 also fought in other local groups, didn't they?

16 A. How do you mean policemen?

17 Q. Policemen, policemen. Policemen who wear uniforms and guns and

18 who go around patrolling the streets and maintaining order. Policemen,

19 such as yourself, were in the local fighting unit, weren't they?

20 A. I had the role of a policeman only before the war. I had no role

21 as a policeman at that time nor was I a policeman at that time.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic, he may have misunderstood you --

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question was not

24 clear with respect to policemen. It was not clear whether it referred to

25 people who had been policemen before the war or during the war, and the

Page 14803

1 witness understood it the same way I did.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. I agree with you.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: -- 100 per cent, Ms. Vidovic. Perhaps you may wish

5 to rephrase --

6 MR. DI FAZIO: It was clear in my mind --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It wasn't -- and I waited for the witness to answer

8 to confirm to myself that he had completely misunderstood you.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, and I accept that and I can see how he did.

10 But I think now the matter has been clarified.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so.


13 Q. Now, did those former policemen during the war in 1992 make use of

14 any police radio equipment from their days as policemen earlier, from

15 their time as policemen I should say?

16 A. Can you please repeat the last part of your question?

17 Q. Did any of the policemen who used to work in Srebrenica before the

18 war started and who fought in local units take with them to the local

19 units police radio sets?

20 A. Let me repeat. We had no means of communication and we were not

21 the last persons to be in the police. I reported to work on the 16th, and

22 then I left and all the equipment remained there. After that, as far as I

23 know, the Serbs -- or rather, the Chetniks entered the town and looted

24 everything that could be looted.

25 Q. Fine. Let's move on. We've got a lot of ground to cover, which

Page 14804

1 we need to. The -- you testified about the bicycle-driven radio system

2 that you had, and that was -- using that you could hear battlefield

3 reports. Now --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness spoke about

6 a transistor, not a radio system.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, agreed.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Agreed. I won't call it a radio system.

9 Q. But this transistor is the same sort of thing as a radio. You put

10 it on your head, and you listen to waves coming through the air, and you

11 can hear language. Correct? You can hear what Serbs are saying?

12 A. No, Your Honour.

13 Q. Well, tell us what it is. Tell us what it is.

14 A. No, as far as I know, when you put a headset on, that's a Walkman

15 and you can play a cassette or a CD on it. I have never seen anyone

16 listening to the radio like that, at least at that time, before the war or

17 during the war. I saw a Walkman with earphones only after the war.

18 Q. Forget transistors or Walkmans. This device that was operated

19 through a bicycle providing it energy, did it pick up Serb radio

20 communications, whatever the device was?

21 A. I told you it was a transistor and you could listen to the news,

22 yes. But it was not the frequency on which the radio communications

23 operated in the way I learned in the army. These were media frequencies,

24 and something like that could not operate on that frequency.

25 Q. I see. So -- that's what I was trying to get at. You see, you

Page 14805

1 weren't actually listening in to Serb military radio communications with

2 this bicycle-driven device; you were just listening to Serb mass media

3 that -- the public radio that was being broadcast. Correct?

4 A. I said that we could listen to their news. That was the area

5 under their control and they had this frequency used by the mass media,

6 which broadcast their public news that we could listen to.

7 Q. And it was from that that you got the information that you can

8 tell us, that you've told us in court about concerning the composition and

9 formation of Serb units. Do I -- is my understanding correct?

10 A. Yes. Some of the information, I stated here, we learned from

11 hearing the news about certain units being set up in the area.

12 Q. So the Serbs were obviously quite happy to publicly broadcast

13 information about their -- the composition of their fighting forces? They

14 didn't shrink from making that public, obviously, at the time?

15 A. Let me tell you something. Even today, as well as before and

16 during the war, regular armies broadcast their own shows in which they

17 illustrate the size and strength of their units. Likewise, the Serbs had

18 their broadcasts where they talked about their units, about setting up

19 units, and the situation on the ground.

20 Q. Okay. I understand better now. So this was Serb propaganda that

21 was being basically broadcast across the airwaves, public propaganda --

22 public Serb propaganda concerning the composition of their units, their

23 fighting forces?

24 A. I wouldn't agree with you in saying that it was propaganda. The

25 way I saw it, these units existed because I clashed with them, and I don't

Page 14806

1 believe that any state would call illustrating a reality propaganda.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have a clash in the making of -- what the

3 meaning "propaganda" is. Propaganda doesn't necessarily mean, at least in

4 the -- in my mind, the spreading of false information.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: No, I understand that. I don't -- and I don't -- I

6 don't adopt that meaning myself.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's move I think.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm going to. I'm going to move right on, if

9 Your Honours please.

10 Q. If I suggested to you that you and other fighting Muslim forces in

11 the Srebrenica area had the means -- the means of radio communication to,

12 A, communicate with each other; and B, that gave them the capacity to

13 listen in to Serb military traffic, communications traffic, would you

14 agree or disagree with me?

15 A. I'd agree in so far that we were able to listen to the newscasts

16 over the transistor.

17 Q. Thank you. One other issue that I think we can briefly deal with

18 before the break. You were shown a document, Exhibit P73, and you were

19 asked to look at the signature on that document. It's -- obviously you

20 can see from it. I'll remind you. On the face of it it claims to be the

21 signature of Mr. Oric, and you were able to tell us that you would never

22 say that it looked like his signature. You were talking -- you gave that

23 evidence, didn't you, purely and simply on the basis of what the signature

24 looked like? That's all. Correct?

25 A. I only said that I was familiar with Naser Oric's signature

Page 14807

1 because we had worked together on the police force, and he wrote reports

2 there. I didn't say anything else in connection with the signature.

3 Q. Okay. I'll just show it to you again. It won't take a moment.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Could the witness be shown P73, please. All right.

5 Q. Have a look at the signature again. Can you see it? If you'd

6 like to actually pick it up and look at it closer, feel free, okay, but at

7 the moment it's on the ELMO.

8 A. Yes. I see only a small portion of the signature, though.

9 Q. Well, that was going to be my next question, in fact. It's not a

10 very good example, is it, of any signature? The document's a copy, first

11 of all, and it's only half the signature. Now, bearing that in mind, it

12 not being a very good copy and it being only a portion of the signature,

13 do you think it might be Mr. Oric's signature, bearing those factors in

14 mind?

15 A. I repeat, I wouldn't say this was Naser Oric's signature.

16 Q. Okay. Well, now, why? Why do you say that? Because it's not the

17 way he used to construct his signature? And I -- I understand that you're

18 not a forensic expert, handwriting expert, and neither am I, but -- so

19 you're just saying that on the way it looks, the way it appears. Correct?

20 A. No. I repeat. I am familiar with his signature because I used to

21 work with him and write reports.

22 Q. Yes. Right. Is this a fair comment: Do you say it doesn't look

23 anything like his signature? It's just not the way he ever wrote his

24 signature?

25 A. I said that I wouldn't claim that this was his signature, but I

Page 14808

1 didn't say that it resembled or less his signature. The point, in fact,

2 is that it is not quite visible.

3 Q. Okay. We'll leave that then.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you very much, Madam Usher. And I think

5 we've got time for one more topic before the break.

6 Q. You -- I want to return to the meeting at Bajramovici [Realtime

7 transcript read in error "Bajra Odemici"] in 1992. Your comments were that

8 some groups were not included in that meeting?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you gave evidence of a number -- I think you actually told us

11 the names of some of the groups. Was there any attempt to get the groups

12 that had not attended at the meeting to become party to this agreement to

13 have Mr. Oric as coordinator?

14 A. I told you that the area of Srebrenica was cut off internally and

15 that some villages in the area were cut off from others, since there was

16 Serb villages placed in between. That's number one. Number two, the

17 villages of Srebrenica are some 40, 50, 60, or 30 kilometres away from

18 that spot.

19 Q. Yes. I understand that, and I understand what you've said about

20 difficulties of moving through the terrain at that time, the dangers and

21 so on. But notwithstanding those difficulties, did anyone make any

22 attempt to bring these groups into -- to make them part of this agreement.

23 Did they try to get through the territory to the distant groups and

24 include them as part of this collection of groups who were going to be

25 coordinated by Mr. Oric?

Page 14809

1 A. As far as I know, this was not discussed at the meeting and I

2 don't know anything about it.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Wubben has detected a spelling mistake, if

4 Your Honours please, it should be Bajramovici, not Bajra Odemici.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat what he said.


8 Q. You said something, Mr. Smajlovic, what was that?

9 A. I said that I don't understand English.

10 Q. No, don't worry, that was for something else. The -- well, I put

11 it to you that if what you say is true and I don't accept what you say

12 about the meeting and the collection of local groups, that it would

13 have -- and what you have said about Mr. Oric being a coordinator, but

14 even on your own account wouldn't it have been crucial to go out and bring

15 these other groups in, to make them part of this agreement, so that there

16 could be greater coordination with all of the groups in the area?

17 Wouldn't that have been a matter of life and death, so to speak?

18 A. I repeat. Had there not been any Serbs in the area, there would

19 probably not have been any war either. However, given the fact that the

20 whole area was cut off internally, there was not much one could do about

21 it.

22 Q. Thank you?

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, would this be an

24 appropriate moment?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. We'll have a 30-minute break starting

Page 14810

1 from now.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: May I proceed, if Your Honours please?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

7 Q. Did Mr. Oric ever own a black Mercedes Benz in 1992 or 1993?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Are you sure of that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you would be a person who would know that, wouldn't you,

12 because you knew Mr. Oric quite well and you even had details about his

13 car ownership, including the fact that he drove a Renault, brought it to

14 Srebrenica, and that his father owned the Renault dealership. Correct?

15 A. No. His father had a car repair shop. It wasn't a dealership.

16 This is an entirely different matter.

17 Q. Okay. Fine. Thank you. I understand. No problem. No worries.

18 Anyway, one thing's for sure: He only drove around in a Renault.

19 Correct? You never saw him in a black Mercedes Benz?

20 A. Yes. It was in a Renault that he came to work and went from work,

21 and while he was working he drove it around.

22 Q. Okay.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown an excerpt from --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser.

25 JUDGE ESER: Could you identify the time you are talking about.

Page 14811

1 MR. DI FAZIO: With the Renault?

2 JUDGE ESER: With the Renault.


4 Q. When did he own the Renault? When did he drive around with that?

5 A. When he arrived in Srebrenica, at the end of 1991.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment.

7 Q. If I were to show you a video which depicts Mr. Oric on a horse,

8 and in the background there appears to be a car that seems like a black

9 Mercedes Benz, would that affect -- that wouldn't affect your opinion one

10 way or the other about whether or not Mr. Oric owned a black Mercedes

11 Benz, because you're certain, aren't you, that he didn't?

12 A. Yes. I'm certain that he didn't. He could have been posing for

13 photos anywhere, just as today he could be taking a photo of -- with a car

14 or something similar in the background.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. Let's turn our attention to Bjelovac.

16 You were - and I'm talking about Bjelovac in December of 1992 - you

17 personally made the decision to take your group to the area of Bjelovac.

18 You didn't discuss that with anyone. There was no planning or order from

19 anyone, and you engaged there in fighting for two days or thereabouts. Do

20 you remember that evidence?

21 A. Yes, I do. Nobody gave me any order for that. It was my own

22 decision, and the men who went along with me did so of their own free

23 will. Nobody forced them to do that.

24 Q. And you went there to help the refugees, didn't you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14812

1 Q. Just explain to the Trial Chamber, please, what precisely you had

2 in mind for your group by going there and how your group was going to

3 assist the refugees, what it was that you were going to do.

4 A. It was upon Midhat Salihovic's message, who had a group in the

5 area, that I went over there to lend him a hand and to help the people

6 there who were in large groups. There were large groups of refugees in

7 the surrounding woods.

8 Q. I heard all of that, but I want to know is -- what I want you to

9 do is explain to the Trial Chamber what precisely you were going to do in

10 order to help Mr. Salihovic and in order to assist the large groups of

11 refugees. Were you going to fight Serbs? Did you attack Bjelovac?

12 Anything in particular? I want to know the particulars of what you were

13 going to do to assist Mr. Salihovic and the large group of refugees.

14 A. There was nothing specific in it; it was always very spontaneous.

15 I went over to help him because Bjelovac was a large military stronghold

16 and our aim was to stop them from shelling from over there and killing

17 people, and so on and so forth.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, Kunjerac, not

20 Bjelovac.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The witness

22 stated "Kunjerac," instead of Bjelovac.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, both the interpreters and you,

24 Ms. Vidovic.

25 Let's proceed.

Page 14813


2 Q. So you would be very surprised to see any documentation concerning

3 any planning that took part that occurred with respect to this operation

4 or action or whatever -- event?

5 A. I told you I never attended any meetings. There was nothing in

6 writing.

7 Q. Thanks.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown Exhibit P84.

9 Q. Witness, this is a handwritten document that I want to show you,

10 and I'd like you to look, please, at the --

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment.

12 Q. I'd like you to look at the page that has a computer number on it

13 02115088.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, if you're interested --

15 if you want to know where in P84 it is, it's page 35 of the translation,

16 and it has the ERN number 03090739.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: If I can assist Madam Usher, it's 02115088, and

19 it's minutes of the Srebrenica OS staff meeting held on the 8th of

20 December, 1992. And the English is at page 35 of the translation, page

21 35. I repeat, we're talking about a meeting, apparently, on the face of

22 the document, held on the 8th of December, 1992.

23 Q. I'd like you to run your eyes down that -- just read it, and also

24 the following page, which in B/C/S has a computer number 02115089, and

25 then the page after that as well, 5091.

Page 14814

1 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, in the English it's

2 pages 35, 36, and 37 -- I apologise, if Your Honours please, and I

3 apologise to Madam Usher. Let me start again. I'm sorry.

4 I'm going to start from the beginning.

5 Q. The document I want to show you is P84. The B/C/S version is 5 --

6 ends in 5091.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours will find it as page 37 and 38 of the

8 English. I apologise for that. It's the 10th of December, 1992.

9 Q. Okay, Witness, what this document claims to be -- well, this part

10 of the document claims to contain the minutes of the Srebrenica OS staff

11 meeting held on the 10th of December, 1992. That should be in the B/C/S

12 version, ending in 5091, the ERN. And it talks about the planning of an

13 ambush and military-type activities in Voljavica and Bjelovac. It refers

14 to Osmaca units. It refers to things like Mis destroying a tank. It

15 refers to matters such as attacking Bjelovac from the Drina. It has

16 comments from -- apparently comments from some people, including at the

17 bottom of the page a comment from Zulfo. "The houses should not be set on

18 fire. If we capture them early, we will all have to stay one night and in

19 the morning continue towards Sase. We need good guides. All of Bjelovac

20 should be attacked from the Drina."

21 Now --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it a translation --

23 MS. VIDOVIC: Translation.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I gathered so much. Could we have your help,

25 Ms. Vidovic, please.

Page 14815

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this part of the diary

2 is mistranslated, quoting Zulfo it says: "Houses should not be torched."

3 It doesn't say "if we take them." It says "if we take, we must spend the

4 night, and in the morning go frontally to Sase." This is suggesting

5 taking the place, not taking the houses, which is quite different. And we

6 have drawn the Prosecutor's attention to such translations.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Fine. Thank you, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

9 Please take into account what has been --

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I have.

11 Q. I don't intend to ask you any questions about that. Can you

12 continue reading over the next page which, in the B/C/S version, should

13 have the computer number ending 5092. And you see there a quote from a

14 chap named Osman. And there's a reference there to Soson's men to go with

15 Hajro. It refers then to an ambush in Voljavica containing details about

16 it. 100 men and two ambushes, Mido and Semso with 20 men.

17 And then something about you or Soson with 15 men. Do you see

18 that entry? All right. Do you see the entry?

19 A. All I see it says here is "Soson." I can't make out what it says

20 next.

21 Q. Okay. Well, I'll put it to you so we can get over this document

22 quickly. I put it to you that this -- what is being spoken of here at

23 these two pages is planning for a military activity or operation or event

24 in the area of Bjelovac and that you were a party to that planning. Is

25 that correct?

Page 14816

1 A. No. As I said, I never attended any meetings. I only went to

2 help Midhat Salihovic, who had a group in that area.

3 Q. Thank you?

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Madam Usher, I've finished with that document.

5 Q. You mentioned in your evidence ribbons and you said that your

6 group did not wear ribbons because otherwise people you called the torbari

7 would follow you. Do you remember that evidence?

8 A. No, that's not what I said. I said that my group did not use

9 ribbons and that some groups may have used them or avoided that because

10 the torbari would put on the same kind of ribbons and then it would be

11 impossible to distinguish a fighter from a torbar.

12 Q. All right. That's what I'm interested in. Do I take it from your

13 answer that occasionally some of these local fighting units wore ribbons

14 and that that had become a problem because it attracted torbari?

15 A. I'm saying again, we were not in uniform. We had civilian

16 clothes, and we knew each other without any ribbons.

17 Q. Yes. Well, I'll make it as plain as I possibly can. Did any of

18 the local groups wear ribbons when they were going into -- when fighting?

19 A. I didn't see that. Wherever I went to help, the groups did not

20 have ribbons.

21 Q. All right. You didn't see that. Did you ever hear of it?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. I see. So you heard about some of the fighting groups wearing

24 ribbons, and did you hear about the consequences, namely that the torbari

25 would be attracted to them? Is that what you're saying?

Page 14817

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know which groups wore ribbons?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Do you know why these groups that you heard about wearing ribbons

5 wore those ribbons? What was the purpose?

6 A. I can't comment on that either because I don't know. I didn't see

7 it. I only heard about it.

8 Q. Okay. If Serb forces wanted to -- sorry, if Muslim forces wanted

9 to -- if Muslim forces wanted to carry out surprise attacks on Serb

10 positions or Serb forces, it was essential to maintain the element of

11 surprise, wasn't it?

12 A. I couldn't comment on that.

13 Q. Well, you remember your evidence of the problem of civilians

14 gathering around fighters and that fact bringing down Serb shells on their

15 heads with all the casualties and wounded that you describe. Do you

16 remember that evidence? If you want I'll read it out for you word for

17 word, but I'm just reminding you of it.

18 A. There's no need. I know exactly what I said.

19 Q. Okay. Good. Now, if you were to carry out an operation, a

20 military operation, or -- against Serb forces, it was important, wasn't

21 it, that the Serbs didn't know that you were there before you started the

22 operation, wherever it might be?

23 A. I'm telling you, it was all spontaneous.

24 Q. Well, when you went to Kunjerac with this group of civilians

25 following you, did -- were you subjected to shelling?

Page 14818

1 A. I said that I was yelling at the civilians who had taken refuge

2 somewhere in the woods, but not for a moment did I say that they had

3 followed me there or where they went or where they were at that point in

4 time.

5 Q. So on this particular occasion you were able to get to Kunjerac

6 without being detected and bringing Serb shells down upon you. Do I -- is

7 that correct?

8 A. I know that in the area where Midhat's group was I arrived with a

9 group of my men.

10 Q. Let's forget about Kunjerac for a moment. Did you ever conduct

11 any other activities, your Kazani group, where you were able -- where you

12 wanted to attack Serb forces --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let me interrupt you. I noticed

14 Ms. Vidovic -- do you -- is there a problem, Ms. Vidovic?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wasn't really

16 following what Mr. Di Fazio was asking the witness, so it wasn't clear to

17 me, the previous question, but evidently the witness the didn't understand

18 it either. But it's not important to the Defence. It seems that the

19 interpretation is not correct.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but if it's not correct, let's go through it

21 and see where it isn't correct because I want to make sure that if there's

22 a question asked that Mr. Di Fazio is thinks is clear and the witness --

23 the witness cannot possibly understand, well, I mean, we have to look into

24 the matter. Even if it's not of any --

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If the Prosecutor can put the

Page 14819

1 question again, it seems to me that it's not clear. It seems that he was

2 asked whether he arrived at Kunjerac without any Serb shelling, that he

3 was not noticed. And the witness replied that he got there on his own,

4 and I don't understand from this whether it attracted shelling or not.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I apologise to the interpreters.

6 Yes, I think Ms. Vidovic is right because if you notice from the

7 transcript -- I don't think he -- the Witness actually answered any of the

8 questions that you put. So let's go to the previous page, page 42, line

9 17, and we start from there. That -- this first part is clear

10 enough. "Well, when you went to Kunjerac with this group of civilians

11 following you, were you subjected to shelling?"

12 His answer: "I said that I was yelling at the civilians who had

13 taken refuge -- who had taken refuge somewhere in the woods, but not for a

14 moment did I say that they had followed me there or where they went or

15 where they were at that point in time."

16 Again, in itself this is already confusing.

17 And then your question: "So on this particular occasion you were

18 able to get to Kunjerac without being detected and bringing Serb shells

19 down upon you?" And not being. "Is that correct?"

20 And his answer is: "I know in the area where Midhat's group was.

21 I arrived with a group of my men," which is again not answering your

22 question.

23 And then of course "let's forget about Kunjerac for a moment, did

24 you ever conduct any activities," et cetera, and so on and so forth. It

25 seems you are taking two completely different directions. You are asking

Page 14820

1 one thing and he is answering another, and no consequence after that

2 either.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay.

4 Q. When you arrived at Kunjerac with your group of men, were you

5 accompanied by civilians, the group of civilians who you had -- who you

6 spoke of?

7 A. I said where I observed the group of civilians going behind me.

8 Q. I didn't ask you where you observed them. It's a simple question,

9 Mr. Smajlovic, and where -- I need to -- we need to make progress and

10 finish my questions and I'm sure you want me to do that. I'll ask the

11 question again. When you arrived at Kunjerac - Kunjerac - the mountain

12 overlooking Bjelovac, that place, that location, with your fighting men,

13 were you at that point of time, at that geographical location, accompanied

14 by civilians? That's the question.

15 A. No. I arrived there with my group.

16 Q. Fine. Thank you. That's clarified the matter. Now, forgetting

17 about Kunjerac, I want to ask you about other military activities that you

18 engaged in throughout 1992. On those occasions, did you ever conduct any

19 military activities where it was important that you -- that you maintain

20 an element of surprise and where you did maintain an element of surprise?

21 A. I said that I went with my group only to help on the outskirts of

22 Srebrenica, Zanik , Likari, Djogazi, these were attacks on our villages,

23 not attacks by our groups on their villages.

24 Q. Well, let's leave Bjelovac and move on to Kravica. You described

25 in -- that you receive add request for assistance from Ejub Golic and that

Page 14821

1 you tried, I think, to -- if I understand your evidence correctly, that

2 you tried to make it to the Kravica area, but you were too weak from your

3 wound to proceed any further. Is that correct? Is that what you said?

4 A. I said that Ejub Golic sent me a message asking me to help him,

5 and I set out with my group and arrived in the area of Avdagine Njive.

6 That is a Muslim village adjacent to the village of Glogova.

7 Q. And on this occasion, bearing in mind that you had no radio

8 equipment whatsoever, did you have any idea what it was that you were

9 going to do in the area?

10 A. No, I just went to help.

11 Q. Yes, I understand that. I've understood your evidence. You said

12 he asked for assistance and you responded with your men. What I'd like to

13 explain to the Trial Chamber is when you set out with your group of armed

14 Kazani fighters to go into battle, into war to face these Serbs with their

15 technical superiority and all of the weaponry they had, it was obviously a

16 grim, dangerous task that you were facing. What plans did you have? What

17 specific plans and actions did you have in mind as you left wherever you

18 were to take your men to the area to go into battle? Explain that to the

19 Trial Chamber, please.

20 A. As I said just a little while ago, I went with my group to help

21 people. There was nothing to be done on the ground -- or rather, I was

22 fighting, not thinking about what I was going to do. When the Chetniks

23 were attacking our villages or wherever I went to help, when I arrived in

24 the area I would be there defending a hill, a house, a shelter, to stop

25 them from entering a village inhabited by Muslims.

Page 14822

1 Q. Okay. So basically is it -- I want to understand you correctly,

2 the Trial Chamber wants to understand you. You were going there to help

3 but you didn't actually know what form this help would take beyond

4 fighting, beyond the fact that you would be going to fight. You didn't

5 actually know where you were going to fight, what your role was going to

6 be in that fighting, what position you had to take up, what other groups

7 would be there, what other weaponry those other groups would have. You

8 didn't -- you knew nothing like that? You had no details at all as you

9 started going towards Kravica?

10 A. No. I only went to help. Not in Kravica.

11 Q. Thanks. Now, you didn't make it to Kravica because you were -- I

12 think you were -- your evidence is that you were feeling -- you obviously

13 weren't well from the wounds that you'd received. Correct?

14 A. Yes, I wasn't feeling well. My wound was swollen and it was

15 beginning to bleed.

16 Q. Yeah, I've got you. Thank you. Now, did your group continue,

17 continue on? Did they leave you behind, perhaps in the care of someone

18 else, and continue on their mission to help, whatever that might be,

19 whatever form that might take?

20 A. No. No. They went back in order to carry me. I was about to

21 lose consciousness. They carried me the whole time.

22 Q. All 30 men -- 30 or 20 -- I can't recall the precise numbers. But

23 your group had about 20 men or so. All of them had to carry you back?

24 Couldn't they continue on with their mission to fight, to help?

25 A. Yes, because the area from the village of Kazani, the distance is

Page 14823

1 about 40 kilometres, so two [Realtime transcript read in error "ten"] men

2 can't carry an unconscious man or a man unable to walk that distance.

3 Q. Did you send any message to Ejub Golic saying: Sorry, we can't

4 come up and help out, as you requested?

5 A. No. No, I didn't.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise, but the

8 witness said "one or two men cannot carry me over such a distance." It

9 says here "ten men cannot carry."

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I want the witness to confirm that.

11 Do you confirm that? I would imagine so.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said one or two men can't

13 carry an unconscious man for 40 kilometres.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


16 Q. Thanks. We're getting to the end. Just a few more questions.

17 You've described an event in March 1993 when Mr. Oric was wounded and you

18 gave detailed evidence about that.

19 A. Yes. Yes, because I was there.

20 Q. Yes. That's right. And you described how some time later -- a

21 number of days later, you went -- you took Mr. Oric on a horse into

22 Srebrenica to meet with General Morillon. Do you remember that evidence?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. What was Mr. Oric going to do to speak to -- what was the -- let

25 me withdraw that. Do you know why Mr. Oric was going to speak to

Page 14824

1 General Morillon in his wounded state?

2 A. No, I don't. We didn't go into details. We didn't talk about it.

3 The conversation throughout this time was about his leg and the condition

4 it was in.

5 Q. So you never received an explanation why it was that you should

6 take him in and he never explained afterwards what his conversation with

7 General Morillon had been about, if indeed he had a conversation with

8 General Morillon?

9 A. No, never. There was no need for anyone to give any information

10 to -- everyone has the right to one's own private life.

11 Q. So it was politeness on your part and respect for one's privacy

12 that -- I don't want to put words in your mouth. But was it respect for

13 one's privacy that led to you not making any inquiries of Mr. Oric as to

14 what he and Morillon had spoken about?

15 A. What I've already told you and explained a while ago, I repeat, I

16 wasn't interested in that. Throughout the time I was trying to save my

17 own skin as well as that of my close and distant relatives and of all the

18 unarmed people who were in Srebrenica. I wasn't interested, really, in

19 that sort of information.

20 Q. Did you take the wounded Mr. Oric back to Potocari after his

21 meeting with Morillon?

22 A. Some of my fighters took him from there. I had some business to

23 attend to at home.

24 Q. And can I ask you this: Were you curious as to what it was that

25 Mr. Oric had spoken to Morillon about back then in 19 -- March of 1993?

Page 14825

1 Did you wonder to yourself: I wonder what Mr. Oric is talking about with

2 General Morillon? Did you actually become curious?

3 A. No, I wasn't curious, to tell you the truth.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has already

6 answered the question.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Any further questions, Mr. Di Fazio?

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank Madam Vidovic for that.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: It was on oversight on my part.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's redact from line 3 on page 50 now.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Madam Vidovic is quite right to point that out, and

24 I apologise.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And let's go into private session, please.

Page 14826

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14827

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, and for the record the

22 cross-examination has just finished. So we are at re-examination stage.

23 Madam Vidovic.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please play OTP video P431

25 and to play it from 00.04.30 until 00.05.00 for just a brief period,

Page 14828

1 please.

2 [Videotape played]

3 Re-examined by Ms. Vidovic:

4 Q. In connection with this video I have a line of questions to put to

5 you. The Prosecution showed you this video clip and asked you whether

6 Oric was well-placed to know the situation on the ground. My question to

7 you is as follows: Please look at this still you can see on the monitor.

8 Do you agree with me that Oric was reading his speech from a piece of

9 paper?

10 A. Yes. He was reading.

11 Q. Based on what you see on this still and on the basis of what you

12 saw from the video when the Prosecutor showed it to you, can you tell us

13 whether these -- this is information that Oric knew himself or whether

14 somebody else wrote it?

15 A. Somebody else must have written it.

16 Q. How can you know anything about that?

17 A. Do you mean -- well, because he's reading the text, something

18 that's been written on paper.

19 Q. Thank you. You heard that this was a celebrity -- a celebration

20 of an anniversary and you could see -- you could hear Oric reading that

21 this was the second anniversary being celebrated and that Izetbegovic

22 himself said so. Is it true that up until the demilitarisation in 1993

23 that there was ever a single command in place in Srebrenica?

24 A. No. I explained this on several occasions that there were no

25 conditions in place, from barracks, communications means, weapons,

Page 14829

1 uniforms, ranks, and so on and so forth.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be given P611 and

4 at the same time could I have the usher's assistance in distributing a new

5 exhibit. This is a copy of Mr. Suad Smajlovic's passport issued on the

6 25th of April, 2002, and please could you place the two documents before

7 the witness. Again, the document is P611.

8 Q. Please turn to the last page which was shown to you by the

9 Prosecutor, that's the place where your signature should be.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And could the usher please place the

11 new Defence exhibit on the ELMO. This should be a copy of Mr. Suad

12 Smajlovic's passport.

13 Q. Mr. Smajlovic, can you confirm that this is a copy of your

14 passport?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Can you confirm whether this is your signature below the text?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher now place next to

19 this copy Prosecutor's Exhibit P611, the place where his signature should

20 be, that's the last page of the document, that's where the signature block

21 should be in order to see both documents at the same time. Perhaps a bit

22 to the left, please. If you could move the right-hand document to the

23 left a bit -- yeah, that's fine.

24 Q. Witness, the signature on P611, does it look like your signature

25 at all?

Page 14830

1 A. No, it doesn't.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You can remove the documents.

4 And, Your Honour, could the copy of the passport be given an

5 exhibit number?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what's the next number D9 --

7 THE REGISTRAR: D995, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: D995. So this document being a photocopy of a part

9 of the witness's passport is being tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit

10 D995.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness

12 please be shown P612 again? While the document is being distributed --

13 Q. In connection with this document, the application for admission

14 into active duty, in 1994 in Srebrenica, was there active military service

15 in place at all?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Please look at P612 now.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm quite -- it's quite

19 unclear whether both pages were exhibited, because I would like the

20 witness to see the page where his father's name is purported to be and

21 that's 02116758.

22 Q. Witness, do you have that before you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Look at number 1, there's Avdo Smajlovic. Can you tell us when

25 your father was born.

Page 14831

1 A. 1943.

2 Q. And please look at what is written here.

3 A. "1944."

4 Q. Is the year of birth correct?

5 A. No, it's not.

6 Q. There is another matter I wish to ask you in relation to this

7 document. At the end of this document there's a code: It says code

8 7.510. Does this mean anything to you, this code?

9 A. No, it doesn't mean anything to me. I see this for the first time

10 now.

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally to answer your question, both pages are

13 entered into the record as one exhibit.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Both pages.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Please look at the Prosecutor's list P613 again. Witness, it

18 says "list," again the same number 7.510/3, Kazani unit. Do you have any

19 idea as to what this might mean?

20 A. No.

21 Q. According to this list I would arrive at the following conclusion,

22 that this Kazani unit, I don't know, but one would say that it numbers 238

23 persons. The group you spoke of, did it at any point in time have as many

24 men?

25 A. No. Throughout the time, we had about 30 men.

Page 14832

1 Q. There's mention of people from Kalesija here. Can you tell the

2 Trial Chamber, because they are not aware of this, you were asked about

3 number 4, Derva Salkic from Kalesija, resident at Kazani. Can you tell

4 the Trial Chamber where Kalesija is.

5 A. Kalesija is 25 kilometres away from Tuzla and 50 from Srebrenica.

6 Q. Was there ever such a person in Kazani?

7 A. No.

8 Q. At least four firing squads are mentioned here. Your Kazani

9 group, did it have firing squads?

10 A. No, it was a group.

11 Q. In this group were there people from Fojhari, Bajramovici?

12 A. No. I said right at the start that the group at Bajramovici was

13 of -- made up of people from Bajramovici. The same went for Kazani and

14 that Fojhari had their own separate group, which also went for all the

15 other hamlets. These groups were independent and operated that way

16 throughout the time.

17 Q. Thank you. We will go back to that.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] But could the witness please be

19 shown again P84.

20 Q. The Prosecutor first showed you page 02115088, and then bearing

21 the date 8 December 1992. And then 10 December -- could you please look

22 again at page 02115088.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the English version

24 that's page 34, 35.

25 Q. The -- first I had a question for you and then the Prosecutor,

Page 14833

1 too, about the vote, the voting itself. You told us that you did not

2 attend meetings but that you knew that it was agreed at Bajramovici that

3 things were solved by votes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Please look at page 02115088, the penultimate paragraph which

6 says: "Upon Osman's proposal," on the first line, "the staff decided by

7 vote that the food should be delivered to the kitchens, given to kitchen."

8 Please look at the next page 02115089. Please turn to the next

9 page.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to Madam Usher.

11 Q. Please look at the very beginning of the page, which says: "The

12 decision is unanimously taken that the food be distributed in the kitchens

13 along the following line." And this is what my question has to do with.

14 When you take a look at this, does it not seem to you that what you see

15 here is a confirmation of what had been agreed in Bajramovici?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I object to this. The

19 evidence that's been led and that has been confirmed in

20 cross-examination - but led - is that there was -- there were two people

21 in this body, this whatever it was, coordinating body: Mr. Oric and his

22 deputy, with whom he didn't get on. This document is riddled with

23 references to the Srebrenica TO and so on. If the case for the

24 Prosecution -- for the Defence is that this is a manifestation of that

25 body consisting of two people, then we should have known about this. This

Page 14834

1 is the first I hear about it. I could never have -- if I'd known that, I

2 could have taken the witness to many, many portions of the document.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I see your point.

4 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a submission

6 which was put forth at this time, and the Prosecutor has been quite

7 erroneously misrepresenting the witness's testimony. He has been very

8 detailed and clear in his answer. I have merely asked the witness about

9 voting. However, my colleague directed my attention to the transcript.

10 It seems something went wrong with it again.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically, do I take you to mean by putting that

12 question to the witness, that this confirms what was stated by the witness

13 earlier on, that all decisions had to be voted upon? In other words, is

14 this what you mean to --

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No.


17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I did not say that at all,

18 Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So what is the purpose of the question? Because the

20 previous extract shows that a vote was taken; here it's stating that it

21 was unanimously decided. They both refer to kitchen and distribution food

22 to mess kitchens. What's the --

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... meeting in

25 Bajramovici?

Page 14835

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I asked the witness the

2 following. It seems that it was not entered into the transcript and it

3 was not interpreted well, again. I asked the witness whether in

4 Bajramovici it had been agreed that the decisions be taken by this body by

5 vote and whether this confirmed that there was a body which met and

6 decided by vote. So I talked about voting and the agreement at

7 Bajramovici. That was all.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Which body are you referring to? This is the --

9 MR. DI FAZIO: That's the crucial issue.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: -- that's the whole issue. Because what Mr. Di Fazio

11 raised by way of objection is that basically upon one question that he put

12 to the witness, the witness agreed that basically the body that was going

13 to decide consisted of Mr. Oric and -- what was the name that was going to

14 decide -- consisted of Mr. Oric and -- what was the name --

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Ustic, Akif.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Akif Ustic and no one else, basically. This is the

17 whole issue.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know what the

19 transcript reflects because I was not in a position to follow. This

20 particular interpretation was never given by the witness. He made himself

21 clear about the meeting at Bajramovici and who became a member of the body

22 there. I will put the following question to the witness:

23 Q. Was --

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honour?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, go ahead.

Page 14836

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Please, Witness, in Bajramovici, were only Oric and Ustic

3 appointed to the body or was there somebody else as well?

4 A. In Bajramovici, the first one in that body was Naser Oric and his

5 deputy Akif Ustic. And the body was made up of the people who were

6 present there, of course.

7 Q. Can I ask you whether Andzic, Becir Bogilovic, Zulfo Tursunovic

8 were elected?

9 A. Hamdija Fejzic, all the group leaders who were there.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And that's how I understood the

12 witness. I assure you that I am not in a position to follow the

13 transcript all the time. I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Madam Vidovic.

15 Judge Eser -- I take it -- I just want a confirmation that you

16 don't have any questions.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 JUDGE ESER: I just want to ask some questions because I am not

19 clear about everything.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE ESER: I just want to put some short questions, perhaps you

22 could answer as quick as possible. You told us that in October 1992 you

23 have been in -- with your group from Kazani you have been in Peciste,

24 Djogazi, and Dugo Polje. Is that correct?

25 A. Dugo Polje.

Page 14837

1 JUDGE ESER: Now, how far away is it from your home place, Kazani

2 A. 5 to 6 kilometres.

3 JUDGE ESER: Did you go home every night or did you -- when you

4 have been there in Dugo Polje and Peciste, did you stay there overnight?

5 A. It depended on the Chetnik attacks. You know how it is when

6 there's shelling, shooting, one cannot sleep. One has to be outside.

7 JUDGE ESER: And at the same time Mr. Naser Oric had been in

8 Potocari and Budak. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes. I said that on the 7th or the 8th, when the attacks started,

10 up until the 13th or the 14th, when the fellow from my group was wounded.

11 JUDGE ESER: And how far are these places, Potocari and Budak away

12 from Peciste and Dugo Polje and Djogazi? How long does it take to come

13 from one place, from your line to Naser Oric's line, so to say?

14 A. Your Honour, I haven't understood you well. Do you mean from

15 where Naser Oric was at -- in Potocari and Dugo Polje up until Djogazi

16 or --

17 JUDGE ESER: Yes, exactly.

18 A. We were next to each other. It was all a contiguous area, Budak,

19 Dugo Polje, Peciste, Djogazi, these are all hamlets that are adjacent to

20 each other.

21 JUDGE ESER: And how often did you see Naser Oric during this

22 time?

23 A. I said that in that period I saw him every day, depending on where

24 the attack was fiercer, whether it was Potocari-Budak or Peciste-Djogazi.

25 I would go to help Budak and some other people from Peciste or Budak, for

Page 14838

1 instance.

2 JUDGE ESER: Would you see him once a day or several times a day?

3 A. Several times a day. The attacks did not subside. If they could

4 not breakthrough and Budak, then they would concentrate on Djogazi and

5 Peciste. So we would have fighting all day long. Sometimes it was on one

6 side of the road and sometimes on the other because there was just this

7 one road dividing us.

8 JUDGE ESER: Now, you were -- you have been asked whether Naser

9 Oric had been in Srebrenica between the 5th and the 15th of October, and

10 you denied this, that he was in Srebrenica during this time.

11 A. Yes, I did. I repeat, it was either on the 7th or on the 8th when

12 we saw each other for the first time in that area. From that point

13 onwards, we would see each other every day until the 14th when one of my

14 fellows was wounded, and that was when all of us together went to

15 Srebrenica.

16 JUDGE ESER: But the question put to you by -- from the Defence

17 was a little bit more specific. You have been asked whether Naser Oric

18 was present every day at a certain institution in Srebrenica. Now, what

19 institution did you have in mind when it was made reference to a certain

20 institution?


22 JUDGE ESER: You have been asked whether Naser Oric was present

23 every day at a certain institution in Srebrenica. Now, what institution

24 did you have in mind?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Not exactly "did you have in mind." Did you

Page 14839

1 understand that you were being asked about --

2 JUDGE ESER: Yeah, what institution have you been asked about?

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ESER: Okay. So let's leave this.

5 A last question: When Naser Oric have been put on a horse to go

6 to Srebrenica, did you accompany him from Potocari to Srebrenica?

7 A. Your Honour, we were not really accompanying him. We found a

8 horse in one of the villages and went to fetch him; that was all. We were

9 not -- no sort of escort or something like that. We went across the

10 villages. I told you that the road to Srebrenica was covered by artillery

11 fire from Caus and Zvijezda.

12 JUDGE ESER: And when you arrived at this place where the meeting

13 should take place, have there been other people from Srebrenica, other

14 group leaders, who attended this meeting as far as you know?

15 A. From the village leading to the town of Srebrenica, there is a

16 post office nearby and an -- I only saw Naser going up there on a horse.

17 My fighter Hakic Medo took him, and I was unable to see any further and I

18 returned back home. And later on they took him back home.

19 JUDGE ESER: As far as you know you didn't see any other group

20 leaders attending the meeting with Morillon, attending the meeting which

21 Naser Oric would go to with Morillon?

22 A. No. I was unable to see anything because I didn't approach the

23 profess or the place where this was happening.

24 JUDGE ESER: Now, at this time I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser.

Page 14840

1 Mr. Smajlovic, we have come to an end; that means that you are

2 free to go home. Our staff will provide you with all the assistance you

3 require. On behalf of Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser, my own behalf, on

4 behalf of the Tribunal, and also of the parties, I should like to thank

5 you for having come over to give testimony in this case and on behalf of

6 everyone also I wish you a safe journey back home. Thank you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.23 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of

10 December, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.