Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15869

1 Thursday, 2 February 2006

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 10.44 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is essentially a meeting that the Trial

6 Chamber is having with the expert about the -- appointed as a handwriting

7 expert and for which the parties are invited to attend, and in fact I

8 would like to register the presence in the courtroom of Defence attorneys,

9 Madam Vidovic and Mr. Jones, assisted by their respective case manager and

10 legal assistant.

11 And on the Prosecution's side, Mr. Wubben, assisted by

12 Mr. Di Fazio and their case manager. And particularly I should like to

13 note the presence of the accused himself, Mr. Oric, and I should like to

14 start this meeting precisely by asking Mr. Oric to confirm if he is

15 receiving interpretation of the proceedings in his own language.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

17 and gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Oric, and good morning to

19 you. And I also wish good morning to everyone present -- present here,

20 particularly the parties. So we have in the courtroom here a gentleman.

21 I understand that your name is Dorijan Kerzan.

22 MR. KERZAN: Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And I understand I can address you in English

24 because you can understand the English language.

25 MR. KERZAN: Yes, of course.

Page 15870

1 JUDGE AGIUS: However, to make sure -- we have interpretation in

2 Serbo-Croat. If you have interested in following the proceedings in that

3 language, I think you would need to switch on to channel 6, to channel 6,

4 if you want to follow the proceedings in Serbo-Croat.

5 Now, Mr. Kerzan, we have never met, so what I suggest is that you

6 introduce yourself first and foremost and tell us a few things about

7 yourself. Of course, we have been briefed and I have information -- when

8 I say "I," it's we actually. We have information about you which we have

9 examined, and I also have a -- kind of a CV in front of me with -- which

10 bears a signature under the name of Dr. Dorijan Kerzan. I suppose you

11 have a copy of it. I'm going to show it to you, and you confirm that this

12 is your signature to start with. And then I propose that if the parties

13 are not yet in possession of a copy of this, we'll make you privy to it --

14 or you have already. But I just want a confirmation from the witness

15 himself that that is his signature.

16 MR. KERZAN: It is the same as the originals.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

18 Now, Mr. Kerzan, you're not really here as a witness yet.

19 Basically this is a kind of an interview and meeting we are having with

20 you to make sure that you know exactly what you -- we require from you and

21 discuss a few items with you before we send you back to beautiful

22 Ljubljana to do the work we are going to ask you to do for us. Yes.

23 Could you tell us who -- who you are, what's your experience in

24 the matter of forensic handwriting examination, very briefly, because then

25 when you return back to give testimony, you are obviously going to be

Page 15871

1 asked by both -- by both parties on this issue.

2 MR. KERZAN: Well, I started work as a forensic handwriting expert

3 in 1992, 1st of July. It was -- I started then. I was appoint -- I was

4 taken in to the forensic lab as a linguist specialist. I was asked to do

5 linguistic examination of text, but the point was that linguistics --

6 linguist analysis are very rare in our country, so I had to go to start

7 training for the handwriting training right from the start. From 1997 I'm

8 head of the department of handwriting and document analysis, that means

9 nine years, and from the year 2000 -- July 2000 I was appointed as an

10 expert witness in handwriting by the Ministry of Justice of the Republic

11 of Slovenia, which I have copies here. If there is any other information

12 besides CV needed, I can provide also, but I think that's mainly --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: What I suggest is that whatever you have available

14 by a way of explaining your credentials or describing your credentials,

15 the better it would be. I'll ask you one simple question. I suppose I

16 know the answer already, but I wish to put it on record. Do you write and

17 understand Cyrillic?

18 MR. KERZAN: Yes, I do.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You do.

20 MR. KERZAN: I did learn -- I don't do that every day, but I did

21 do that --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: But you're familiar with the Cyrillic?

23 MR. KERZAN: I'm familiar with the Cyrillic, yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. One question -- I also want to make sure

25 before we confirm your appointment as our expert that you have not been

Page 15872

1 approached by anyone in relation to this case.

2 MR. KERZAN: I have been approached by -- only by the Court, only

3 by the colleague that works here; otherwise no.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's in these last few days in relation to what

5 we're talking about --


7 JUDGE AGIUS: So -- and you've -- when did you become aware of the

8 existence of this case?

9 MR. KERZAN: Last Friday.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So you -- you've never watched TV transmissions of

11 the proceedings of this case in your country? If they --

12 MR. KERZAN: I've just seen something on the news, but not really

13 I've been watching that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. We have got a rather limited

15 exercise for you, and what I suggest to do this morning very briefly is

16 the following. I will show you one by one ten documents --

17 MR. KERZAN: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: -- each of which bears a signature. It is precisely

19 that signature in each of these ten documents that you need to examine --

20 MR. KERZAN: Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: -- for authenticity purposes. For comparative

22 analysis purposes, we are going to give you what I would call a source

23 document which basically contains eight specimen signatures allegedly by

24 the accused. What you have to do is to compare the signatures which are

25 allegedly of the accused, these eight documents -- eight signature --

Page 15873

1 specimen signatures that I'm going to be giving you to be used as source

2 signatures, with the signatures in the other ten documents that I

3 mentioned, and then report to us in a way that I will explain later

4 whether any of the signatures in the ten documents match with any of the

5 signatures which I have called specimen signatures or source signatures.

6 All right?

7 MR. KERZAN: Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I also would like to know if, in your opinion, your

9 expert opinion, there has been any tampering with any of the ten documents

10 to be examined. Then in addition we are going to give you another

11 document --

12 MR. KERZAN: Just a second, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course. You will receive these terms in

14 writing as well.

15 MR. KERZAN: I still want to write it myself. Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Then in addition we're going to give you another

17 document which also bears a signature, and again you need to compare that

18 signature with the source signatures and report to us whether you can

19 reach any conclusion whether it matches or whether it doesn't match or

20 what your opinion is. But let's go through the documents one by one. And

21 for the record I will be mentioning the ERN number.

22 You will also need to undertake with us that you will not use

23 any -- any -- you -- any analysis which could affect the integrity of the

24 documents, in other words either destroy or alter the present state of

25 these documents.

Page 15874

1 MR. KERZAN: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think that is quite clear and you would need to

3 sign a declaration. The first document that we would like you to examine

4 is the one I'm going give you now, and which bears ERN 00926461.

5 Please show it to the expert. All right.

6 It's the signature in the bottom that you would need to examine.

7 MR. KERZAN: This is a photocopy of the document?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not tell you what it is. You're the expert, you

9 will then tell us what it is. All right. But that's -- that's what I can

10 give you.

11 MR. KERZAN: Okay.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And then you come back to us with your

13 conclusions whether it's good enough for analysis or not and what your

14 conclusion is. Now I'm going to give you another document -- for the

15 record also, in order to make sure that the parties can follow, that is P3

16 in the record. All right? That is P3.

17 I'm going to give you another document now with ERN 01239504, and

18 for your information this is P4.

19 Yes, he keeps these, yes. And then of course he will sign us a

20 receipt. One -- yes.

21 Again, it's that signature in the bottom that you need to examine.

22 MR. KERZAN: Yes, I understand.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The next document I'm going to hand to

24 you bears ERN 01239528 and it is P13. All right?

25 Now I'm going to give you another document which is P14 and it

Page 15875

1 bears ERN 01239544.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, the next document is P37 and it bears ERN

4 number 01839608.

5 Next document is P73 and it bears ERN number 02075808. And again,

6 in each case, Dr. Kerzan, it's the signature in the bottom in each of

7 these documents that we are interested in.

8 MR. KERZAN: On this particular document I would say the right one

9 or the left one?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, all right.

11 MR. KERZAN: There are two --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. You're right. Can you hand it back to

13 me to be sure. There are two signatures, one allegedly according to -- on

14 the face of the document because, of course this is, as you can imagine,

15 very much debated here. There is one on the right which -- there is one

16 on the left which says [B/C/S spoken]. We are not interested in that.

17 MR. KERZAN: Okay.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We are interested in the signature on the right.

19 MR. KERZAN: I understand.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Where the stamp is. Okay.

21 MR. KERZAN: Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Next document is -- again bears two signatures. It

23 has ERN 02075809, it's P74. We are only interested in the signature on

24 the right, behind the stamp.

25 And I'm going to give you now P75 which is 02075810. Again, it --

Page 15876

1 it has two signatures. We are not interested in the signature on the left

2 nor in the handwriting on the text; we are only interested in the

3 signature on the right in the bottom on -- where the stamp is.

4 MR. KERZAN: Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I am now going to give you document with ERN

6 01239545, which in our records is P158. We are interested in the

7 signature, the bottom right.

8 And finally I'm going to give you another document with ERN

9 03721400 which is Exhibit P210. Please don't ask me -- it's the signature

10 in the bottom right. Please don't ask me if this is a photocopy or not.

11 That completes the first list, the one of ten documents. Now I am

12 going to give you another document, and I think we can give him only this

13 page. We don't need to give him -- okay. We don't need to give him this

14 because there is no signatures on this.

15 I'm going to give you one page from Exhibit P269. The page I am

16 going to give you if -- I would appreciate, Katarina, if you can provide

17 me with a plastic sheet, if you have one, please.

18 The page I am going to give you bears ERN number 01801583. It

19 contains a signature, bottom right. No, no, did I say 85? No, I

20 said "83."

21 And I'm not going to comment anything on this except that I would

22 like you similarly to examine this signature by comparing it to the

23 documents that I will be giving you very shortly.

24 So we need to put this in a plastic sheet, please. I am returning

25 these to you because they belong. Right. Now I need to find the other

Page 15877

1 one. Yeah, the P100.

2 Doctor, I am now going to give you the following documents. I

3 will go through them one by one. First, for the record, the first page is

4 02066400. This is part of P100, Ms. Vidovic and Mr. Wubben. This is part

5 of P100 that I am going through now, all right, one by one. The second

6 page is 02066401. The third is 02066402. The fourth is 02066403. The

7 fifth is 02066404. The sixth is 02066405. The seventh is 02066406. And

8 finally the eighth is 02066407. Now --

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, on each of these documents there is more than

11 one signature, as you will see. We are only interested in each case in

12 the signature that appears in blue ink - what kind of an ink I don't know,

13 it's a ball-point or whatever, you should be able to establish that - in

14 the top of each of these eight pages. At the top there is a signature in

15 each of these eight pages with a date and a time. For the purpose of your

16 analysis, these are the signatures that you are to use for comparative

17 purposes as source signatures.

18 I wish to make it very clear that you are to ignore completely any

19 other signatures that appear on these documents. All right?

20 MR. KERZAN: I understand.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So please hand these -- again, I wish if you could

22 provide the expert with a plastic pocket if you have. I mean ...

23 You will understand - I'm sure I don't need to stress this beyond

24 what is minimal - that we need to keep a record of the fact that we are

25 handing you these documents for analysis purposes. So you will now be

Page 15878

1 approached by a member of our staff from the Registry with a list of the

2 documents indicating the ERN number --

3 MR. KERZAN: Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: -- which you are kindly asked to sign. That would be

5 a confirmation on your part that you have received them for analysis

6 purposes. You will also be then required later on to hand them back in

7 the same condition they are without any alterations or markings or

8 whatever to -- the member of the Registry that I am designating and that

9 would be Ms. Fabian, Katarina, that you are seeing in front of you, right

10 in front of you. So -- but these are procedures that we will attend to

11 after this sitting, and you will deal precisely with the Registrar.

12 Have I made myself clear as to what you are required to do?

13 MR. KERZAN: Yes, I think so. I have here material for

14 comparison, and if I understand correctly, one document -- these documents

15 are to be treated together and these separately in comparison purposes or

16 whatever way I do it myself.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you do it whichever way you like.

18 MR. KERZAN: Okay.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm giving it to you separately because on the face

20 of it the writing or the signature in this P269 looks to be different to

21 the eye than the signature in the other ten documents. So I am saying:

22 Keep it apart for -- analyse it in the same way but --

23 MR. KERZAN: Of course.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: -- I think I would have misled you by telling you:

25 Have 11 instead of 10 and treat them as if -- so I think I send my message

Page 15879

1 clear. Otherwise, if you have any questions or any problems with the

2 documents that I have given you, perhaps you could tell us now.

3 MR. KERZAN: I need more time to see if there is any problems.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no.

5 MR. KERZAN: But it would be unprofessional to say anything at

6 this stage.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. So your task would be to make

8 this comparative study, to report to us whether in your opinion, whether

9 there has been any tampering of any of those documents. And if there are

10 any other matters that you can highlight to us which could help us

11 establish the authenticity or otherwise of any of those 11 documents,

12 please do so by all means.

13 We would prefer if you can prepare and hand in your findings in

14 writing, and this brings me obviously to the time-frame that you require

15 and what -- what I need to know from you, basically, is how much time you

16 need to do -- to carry out the analysis, how much time you need to prepare

17 the report, have it typed and with the maps and everything, and be

18 communicated to us before you come over to testify -- and I would require

19 an original plus five copies, an original plus five copies. And then you

20 need to tell us roughly when you could be at the disposal of the Trial

21 Chamber for testimony because -- for obvious reasons.

22 MR. KERZAN: Well, it is, in my view, logical that I would prepare

23 an opinion in writing, of course. Within the opinion I would also explain

24 the methods I would use and so on.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not asking you about them now, because that's --

Page 15880

1 MR. KERZAN: Well, concerning the time-frame, I would say three to

2 four weeks I need to prepare an opinion. It wouldn't be wise to do it

3 faster because this method we are using is method approved by ENFSI

4 [Realtime ranscript read in error "embassy"].

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Approved by embassy?

6 MR. KERZAN: ENFSI, actually, the Network of Forensic Handwriting

7 Experts, not embassy. So it's very good within this method to have

8 opinion prepared and then leave it aside for a couple of days and think it

9 over to do it again. I always do analysis twice, at least, just to avoid

10 possible mistakes or possible misjudgement. So it takes three to four

11 weeks.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's -- let's do it this way. I would leave it to

13 you to decide exactly how much time you require, but my recommendation is

14 that we -- we haven't given you much documents. My recommendation is that

15 the moment you are sure of yourself and in a position to file a report, to

16 do so.

17 MR. KERZAN: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We would also need to know from you when you can

19 then come here to testify to confirm your report, first and foremost, and

20 to be asked questions, et cetera. I'm urging you to do this analysis the

21 earliest possible because you will understand that the parties have to be

22 given every opportunity to come back to us -- not only to ask you

23 questions but also to come back to us if need be with further information

24 on -- on these -- on these issues. So if you can change this matter up or

25 give it your utmost attention it would be much better. But since

Page 15881

1 considering what you said, the last thing I'm going to do is impress on

2 you the need to -- to finish before you think you -- you can really

3 present us with a good -- with a good analysis. So I would leave it that

4 for the time being. What I would like you to do is to come back to us

5 when in the course of the next week or two you are in a position more or

6 less to know --

7 MR. KERZAN: Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: -- the earliest we can expect the report, then I can

9 communicate the date of the sitting to you and also -- please, also

10 indicate your availability. I can then indicate the date of the sitting

11 to both parties so that they can make their preparations, if they need to

12 have an expert sitting by their side when you give evidence.

13 MR. KERZAN: I just have a question now.


15 MR. KERZAN: About the written report, do I send it to you or --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You send it -- you communicate it -- when you --

17 when it's ready --

18 MR. KERZAN: Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: -- we can either arrange to have it picked up from

20 you by --

21 MR. KERZAN: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know if the Tribunal has a representative in

23 Ljubljana, I doubt it, I doubt it, but we will let you know. It will

24 either be picked up by the member of the Registrar -- of the Registry.

25 MR. KERZAN: Mm-hmm.

Page 15882

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Or else we -- you can send the copies of the

2 Registrar and then bring the original with you when you come to give

3 testimony. We will let you know about the protocol to be used, but the

4 important thing is that we have an indication. If you can file a -- your

5 report in English, it will be better, but we are not forcing you --

6 MR. KERZAN: Well --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: If you think it's better filed in Serbo-Croat, then

8 by all means go in Serbo-Croat.

9 MR. KERZAN: Well, I would have -- it is very difficult to prepare

10 an expert opinion in the non-native language because one comma can change

11 the meaning of the words. So I would prefer to do it in my language,

12 which is Slovenian, but I can provide you with a summary in English, or

13 some kind of a shortened report, so to be understood -- the opinion to be

14 understood on spot when you received it. That I would do, but I wouldn't

15 write all the report in English because, as I said, any wrong use of word

16 can mean bad, bad things. So I wouldn't dare to do that.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

18 So -- how different is Slovenian from Serbo-Croat? Because I must

19 confess my ignorance in the -- completely different? Completely different

20 I would imagine?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very different, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. But don't worry, I think -- I

23 think we should aim at the optimum in these matters, so the report will be

24 in Slovenian.

25 And, Katarina, in the meantime communicate this matter to the

Page 15883

1 Registrar. I'm sure that there will be someone in this Tribunal who

2 could -- who could -- who could then translate the report to us into

3 English. Unless he can have someone in Slovenia who could do that, with

4 the approval of the Registrar. And since you know both English and

5 Slovenian, perhaps you could take your time to check the two versions.

6 And if -- I think that may be a better solution --

7 MR. KERZAN: You --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: -- if the registrar agrees as to the amount that

9 needs to be paid. I mean, whether it's paid here or whether it's paid

10 there, it has to be paid. So shall I leave this with you to discuss with

11 your superiors? And then it's discussed, et cetera. If we can find -- if

12 he can find someone -- maybe someone in his team is in a position to

13 provide us with a translation or if you can do that yourself and ask to be

14 compensated for further translating it into English, I think we can

15 discuss that.

16 MR. KERZAN: Well, I think it's risky for me to do that. I would

17 be able to do it, certainly, but I really wouldn't like to mess with

18 words. It wouldn't be a good idea, but it would be a very good idea if I

19 could check the translation, it's not a problem, as to avoid mistakes

20 because the translators sometimes don't know the right words.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So what we will do, Madam Registrar, is to

22 communicate this problem to the Registrar, who's got now two weeks', three

23 weeks' time to prepare for this. The report will need to be translated

24 from Slovenian into English, and then we'll give the expert the

25 opportunity to compare the two versions. And we will of course work on

Page 15884

1 what we will have after that. All right. Okay.

2 The documents that we will bring you -- that we will give you, all

3 the ones that you will be signing for, will need to be returned. Now, if

4 there will be an insistence on the part of the Registry to have them

5 before the report, we will ask you to hand them before. Otherwise, you

6 will bring them over with you when you come here with the original report

7 or when you hand the original report to the Registrar, whichever is --

8 whichever is the case. I think it's going to be handing the original to

9 the Registrar, I mean the original for translation purposes.

10 MR. KERZAN: Well, I think when somebody comes to pick up the

11 report I can give the same person the materials.


13 Now, depending on how -- the time-frame that you create for

14 yourself, you need to allow for a short time for the translation of these

15 documents and also for coming over to give testimony. So I'm marking

16 time. Roughly we're talking of any time from three to four weeks or,

17 maximum, five weeks from now you will need to come over and give

18 testimony.

19 MR. KERZAN: Well, I can -- I think I can assure you the expert

20 opinion will be finished in the week from the 20th to 24th of February;

21 that's when the opinion will be prepared.


23 MR. KERZAN: So --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: In that case, if we know a week beforehand that it's

25 going to be ready that week, we will make arrangements for its

Page 15885

1 connection --

2 MR. KERZAN: You will know that next week. I will send the date

3 when to be collected next week. There is no doubt about it. Thursday,

4 Friday next week I will know exactly.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: In that case, I told you before, we need original,

6 plus five copies. It doesn't hold any further. We will need an original

7 and one copy, an original and one copy in Slovenian, and then we will work

8 on it for translation purposes. We will work on the copy for translation

9 purposes.

10 The Registrar needs to ensure that the translation is made within

11 the shortest time possible, and I think we should aim at having a -- the

12 gentleman come over and give testimony four weeks from now. One moment.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Brydensholt is making a very good point.

15 You mentioned earlier that you would also be prepared to make a summary of

16 the findings of the report in English.

17 MR. KERZAN: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, in that case we would require five copies of

19 that because that would help us prepare better and also help the parties

20 prepare better because they will know from the very word "go" where they

21 stand as far as your expert report is concerned. All right?

22 So let's try to recapitulate. You're going to examine these 11

23 documents by comparing them to the eight specimen signatures that I gave

24 you earlier on. You're going to examine whether there was any tampering,

25 and you're going to provide us also with any other information that you

Page 15886

1 can dig-up that would help us in establishing authenticity or otherwise of

2 the 11 documents. You're going to try to do this the shortest time

3 possible, but you think you will require at least three weeks. You are

4 going to file your report in Slovenian, two copies original and one copy.

5 Together with it you will return all the documents that we have given you

6 today. Accompanying your report there will be a summary of the report and

7 findings in English, five copies. Then we will look in the rest. All

8 right?

9 I think I had another note somewhere, but I will find it. Is

10 there anything else that -- yes, the note was exactly -- because I was

11 informed that you wouldn't be able to come to testify in any case between

12 the 13th and the 17th of this month, which is no longer -- no longer

13 relevant. All right.

14 So there will be two documents from [sic] you to sign. That one

15 is undertaking -- basically I've prepared it that you will examine the

16 documents entirely by non-destructive and non-damaging means to protect

17 the physical integrity of the documents, ensure that they are returned as

18 soon as the examination is completed to the Registry representative in a

19 condition suitable for further examination, should it be required. And

20 then I will also be handing to you for signature a receipt in which you

21 confirm that you have received these documents, namely, the ones that are

22 shown in the -- in this receipt and that the documents will be returned to

23 Ms. Fabian as soon as the examination is completed. Do you wish

24 Prosecution or Defence to see these two documents that we will require the

25 witness -- the expert to sign?

Page 15887

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MR. JONES: No, I don't think we need to.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

4 So, usher, could you kindly please hand these documents. That's

5 one here -- he needs to sign one of each because there are duplicates

6 here.

7 Dr. Kerzan, is there anything else you would like to tell us?

8 MR. KERZAN: I don't think so at this stage. I would just like to

9 have a printout of this LiveNote which -- just to have it as a help.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Any problem with that? I mean, that's easy, we can

11 procure. All right.

12 So we will see you next time.

13 MR. KERZAN: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And the sooner you can put us in the picture as to

15 when to expect the result from you, the better it will be. And please

16 always, in communicating with the Trial Chamber, you communicate via the

17 Registrar.

18 MR. KERZAN: Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: The Registrar and not directly with us. The

20 Registrar will give you the contact -- contact numbers, et cetera. If you

21 are at any time approached by anyone in relation to the work -- usher.

22 If you are at any time contacted from anyone, apart from the --

23 from my staff, please do let us know, report to us. I don't envisage

24 happening, but it is my duty to caution you on this.

25 And I think that brings to an end the meeting. I thank you so

Page 15888

1 much for having come over, and we'll, please God, meet again when you have

2 finished and prepared your report.

3 MR. KERZAN: I think first week of March would probably be already

4 to -- for me to come here and a week before I would have the document

5 prepared.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, parties, take note of that. There

7 is a lot of work to be done in the meantime, so that doesn't really bother

8 me at all at this time. And you have ample time as well in case you wish

9 to have your experts present for the testimony of this witness.

10 I would leave it at that for the time being, and we will pick it

11 up again. You will expect communications from us by way of decisions next

12 week, as I said, and we anxiously expect you to file -- both of you to

13 file whatever you needed to file.

14 One thing I forgot to -- in the -- last time -- yes, exactly. I

15 forgot to give an exhibit number to the new P2 -- 328 and 329. You know

16 exactly what I'm referring to. I said they will co-exist and proceed part

17 and parcel with the existing ones. They will be 328.1 and 329.1. That's

18 for your record because for our record we have already entered that.

19 Thank you so much and have a good morning.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.34 a.m.