1 Wednesday, 4 May 2005
2 [Further Appearance]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, everyone. May I first of all thank
6 everyone for making yourselves available at such -- I was going to say
7 unearthly -- at such an early hour. May I first of all take the
8 appearance -- sorry, would the registrar call the case, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. This is case number
10 IT-03-70-I, the Prosecutor of the Tribunal against Sreten Lukic.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Can I now take the appearances for the
13 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm Tom Hannis on behalf of
14 the Office of the Prosecutor. I'm assisted by Christina Moeller on my
15 immediate right, Caroline Edgerton at the far end, and our case manager
16 Susan Grogan.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much, Mr. Hannis. For the accused,
19 MR. SCUDDER: Good morning, Your Honour. I am Theodore Scudder
20 and I'm assisted here this morning by Dragan Ivetic. We represent the
21 defendant Sreten Lukic.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Scudder.
23 Now, Mr. Lukic, could you stand, please. Are you able to hear the
24 proceedings that are taking place here in your own language?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hear, Your Honour, yes.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Just please be seated again.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Scudder, the further appearance that is
4 being conducted this morning is for the principal purpose of taking pleas
5 from your client. It is for him to decide whether he requires the
6 indictment to be read in full or whether he, on your advice, accepts that
7 is unnecessary. Can you indicate the position to me, please.
8 MR. SCUDDER: Yes. Mr. Sreten Lukic acknowledges that he is the
9 Sreten Lukic named in the indictment. He's received a copy of the
10 indictment and had the advice of counsel in reviewing the indictment. He
11 waives the formal reading of it, and he enters a plea of not guilty to
12 each of the counts.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Scudder.
14 Now, Mr. Lukic, could you stand again, please. You've heard
15 Mr. Scudder indicate to me that he is authorised to tender a plea on your
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have heard that, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, can you confirm to me that you have had a copy
19 of the indictment and have read it and understood it?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have received a copy
21 of the indictment, and I have read it and studied it and understood it.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: And can you confirm to me that the plea tendered on
23 your behalf of not guilty to all charges by Mr. Scudder is the plea which
24 you authorised him to tender?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I plead not
1 guilty on all charges of the indictment.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. Please be seated again.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, in light of the pleas tendered, the Registrar
5 will be instructed to arrange in due course for a trial to take place on
6 this indictment.
7 Now, Mr. Hannis, can you assist me in relation to the
8 implementation of your disclosure obligations. What stage have you
10 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. We did disclose supporting
11 material in this matter to the prior duty counsel, I believe that was
12 Mr. Koppe, who appeared at Mr. Lukic's first appearance. We disclosed
13 those materials on the 20th of April.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: I see that Rule 66(A)(ii) governs the disclosure or
15 delivery of copies of the statements of the witnesses that the Prosecutor
16 intends to call to testify at the trial and no doubt arrangements under
17 that Rule are not normally made at this stage of the process, but this is
18 a case which is well advanced in relation to other accused, on the view
19 that the Prosecution seek to conjoin it with the proceedings against
20 Milutinovic and others. Is there scope for an order or an arrangement to
21 be made at this stage in relation to Rule 66(A)(ii)?
22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't think there would be any problem
23 with that. We've made disclosure to the other defendants in the related
24 case in which we filed a motion to join this defendant. I see no reason
25 that we couldn't provide those materials in fairly short order.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: And when in ordinary course, in ordinary
2 circumstances, where in the preparation period or the pre-trial period
3 would these statements normally be delivered?
4 MR. HANNIS: Normally, Your Honour, that would be done at the time
5 we filed our pre-trial brief, our exhibit list, et cetera.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: From now, roughly how long is that normally? Just
7 in very broad terms.
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, in my limited experience, that range
9 varies widely. It could be in a matter of a few months to many months.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think what I'm inclined to do, Mr. Hannis,
11 unless you try to persuade me otherwise, is in this case to make an order
12 that within 30 days of today's appearance you should comply with Rule
13 66(A)(ii). Would that cause any particular difficulty?
14 MR. HANNIS: May I consult with my case manager?
15 Your Honour, I'd like to try to persuade you to give us 60 days.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
17 Now, Mr. Scudder, is it likely that you will be the counsel in
18 this case or is your tenure in the case necessarily for a limited period?
19 MR. SCUDDER: My understanding is that we are in this case for the
21 JUDGE BONOMY: And have you received the supporting material from
22 your predecessor?
23 MR. SCUDDER: Not yet, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Have arrangements been put in hand to obtain it?
25 MR. SCUDDER: No. We can start work on that immediately after
1 this hearing.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm fairly keen in this case to encourage -- I
3 suppose you could describe it as catch-up, to make fairly rapid progress
4 so that if there is to be union between this case and that of Milutinovic
5 that the interests of the accused who have been before the Tribunal for
6 some considerable time are not prejudiced by delays in relation to the
7 present case.
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Hannis.
10 MR. HANNIS: In that regard I'm advised by my case manager we
11 could provide a CD with the supporting materials to Mr. Scudder today.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that assists me greatly. You've actually
13 undermined your own position somewhat, Mr. Hannis, by making that offer,
15 What I think I'll do in the circumstances is appoint the
16 Prosecution to make available to the Defence the materials referred to in
17 Rule 66(A)(ii) by the 30th of June. Now, that means, Mr. Scudder, that
18 today you should have the supporting material, and within six to seven
19 weeks you should have the statements and, therefore, be well-armed for
20 your preparation purposes long before the first Status Conference, which
21 will be about the beginning of September.
22 Now, is there anything you, Mr. Scudder, wish to draw to my
23 attention this morning?
24 MR. SCUDDER: Not regarding any of the pre-trial matters, no, Your
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Anything else?
2 MR. SCUDDER: I think the Court should be aware of the special
3 medical situation of the defendant. He underwent some -- two serious
4 cardiac surgeries as recently as maybe four weeks ago, and I understand
5 that his medical care may not be completely resolved. I think the Court
6 should know about that because the surgery was very serious and it
7 occurred in Serbia and delayed his removal to this Court.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: When I raised it -- or when the matter arose
9 before, there was -- it was clear at that stage that adequate arrangements
10 were being made. Are you suggesting otherwise at this stage?
11 MR. SCUDDER: In the brief conversations I've had with the
12 defendant Lukic just in the last two days, he has indicated to me that he
13 is being taken care of well through this point.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.
15 MR. SCUDDER: But the local physicians need to consult from time
16 to time with the cardiologist and the cardiac surgeon who performed the
17 surgery on him in Serbia only a few weeks ago, and we were just concerned
18 that that would continue. From my experience, he needs to have regular
19 stress tests. One of those was interrupted. I believe he's had one
20 since, but we are concerned that he will continue to have those as needed.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, one consequence of what I've been told this
22 morning, that is that the supporting material was disclosed on the 20th of
23 April, is that you have in the order of must just now be about 15 days to
24 deal with preliminary motions, that deadline running from the date of
25 disclosure. And I draw that to your attention because there is increasing
1 anxiety among Judges in the Tribunal that the time scales set within the
2 Rules should be adhered to, and this case is a fairly old case in spite of
3 the fact that your client has been here only a short period of time, but
4 experience in the case is well developed and therefore there is a pool of
5 knowledge into which you can plug to enable you, I think, to ensure that
6 preliminary motions are dealt with, at least made, within that time scale.
7 Now, Mr. Lukic, could you stand again, please. Mr. Scudder has
8 indicated a degree of concern about your medical condition. Is there
9 anything that you wish to say about that to me?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the accused.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Your microphone is -- thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have consulted my
13 Defence counsel with respect to my health situation, and as during the
14 last initial appearance, I said something about that and said that there
15 was the possibility of including a physician specialist. That has taken
16 place. It took place in April. A cardiologist came to see me, the
17 cardiologist that provides medical services to the Tribunal, and in the
18 meantime, on the basis of a prior agreement, I had physicians from
19 Belgrade coming here. The cardiologist and surgeon who operated on me,
20 they came to see me here.
21 Now, since in mid-April or, rather, on the 13th or 14th -- or
22 12th, 13th, and 14th, to be exact, I have to say this, there was
23 uncontrolled bleeding, and that is the difficult point in all this. They
24 changed my therapy on the 15th, and I am now being administered this new
25 therapy. The basic parameter of the blood or the blood levels have still
1 not been brought to the necessary normal therapy level.
2 Every Thursday they give me a blood test. I give my blood for
3 analysis and I am expecting the results tomorrow, it being Thursday,
4 because the doctors have told me that I need to be given this therapy for
5 some time for the situation to improve. So I expect that the therapy will
6 have done its work, but I'll leave that up to the physicians to determine.
7 Thank you.
8 Quite simply, it's a process that is ongoing for a certain period
9 of time, especially when you are receiving new therapy. So we expect this
10 new therapy to give off results. A month has gone by since the first
11 tests were conducted, and the doctors feel that they have now got the
12 situation in hand and that there is less likelihood of bleeding in the
13 heart or the head, and of course the results of that kind of bleeding
14 could be tragic. But I have full confidence in my physicians. I think
15 that they are monitoring the situation, that they have my health situation
16 under control, and I hope that my health situation will improve and be
17 brought into acceptable levels if I adhere to the therapy given me. Thank
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. Clearly your care is in good
20 hands, and you are particularly aware of the condition and are obviously
21 aware of the need to draw to the physicians' attention any matter in
22 relation to your health which is causing concern.
23 The Rules of the Tribunal require that you should appear before me
24 again in not more than 120 days from today. That's roughly at the
25 beginning of September. So the case will come before me then when I will
1 review progress in the case. Meanwhile, is there any other matter you
2 wish to draw to my attention?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
5 Mr. Hannis.
6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, in conjunction with the matter of
7 preliminary motions, as you're aware, we had filed a motion to join this
8 case with the Milutinovic, Ojdanic, Sainovic case. I believe we filed
9 that motion about the time this accused arrived in court. So I'm not sure
10 how you want to handle it in terms of Mr. Scudder being allowed to file
11 some kind of response to that motion even though we filed it, I think, on
12 the 5th of April, but I'm sure we would be happy to have input from him.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: No doubt with -- no doubt, Mr. Hannis, with the CD
14 of supporting material a copy of the joinder motion can be provided.
15 MR. HANNIS: Exactly, Your Honour. That's what I was just
16 discussing with my case manager.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Scudder, you -- and indeed it would be
18 helpful if you could also indicate the responses of the other accused such
19 as they are so far. That could be sent as well.
20 MR. HANNIS: We can do that.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you'll find, Mr. Scudder, that the --
22 certainly the attitude of the accused whose responses I have seen is to
23 accept that joinder as the appropriate course, but it would be helpful, I
24 think, to the Trial Chamber if you were able at an early date to indicate
25 your client's attitude to that motion.
1 MR. SCUDDER: Yes, we'd be happy to do that.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Scudder.
3 Well, that appears -- anything else, Mr. Hannis?
4 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry, my case manager has
5 brought to my attention that we do have a Status Conference regarding this
6 defendant scheduled next week, on the 13th.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the one on the 13th is for the accused
8 Lazarevic. Does it follow that it should involve every accused?
9 MR. HANNIS: She's showing me a pleading with Lukic's name on the
10 title page.
11 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: My impression, Mr. Hannis, is that with the passage
13 of time the two cases should be brought together. In fact, the three now;
14 Lazarevic, Lukic, and Pavkovic. But for the purposes of next week, I
15 suspect the appropriate course is to have a Status Conference only in
16 relation to Lazarevic. However, in view of the doubt that's been cast
17 just now, a Scheduling Order will be issued making the position clear.
18 MR. HANNIS: Okay. The document does show both Lazarevic and
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I will consider the position once I rise, and
21 issue a Scheduling Order.
22 MR. HANNIS: That's fine, Your Honour. Thank you.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, it does appear there is just the
24 possibility you will be required next week because a Status Conference,
25 the next stage in the process in court, has been arranged in the case of
1 Lazarevic. But I doubt if that will be the case. However, an order will
2 be made later today clarifying the position.
3 I think that deals with that. That means that everything is dealt
4 with and we can now adjourn.
5 --- Whereupon the Further Appearance adjourned
6 at 8.28 a.m.