Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1642

1 Tuesday, 15 August 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, everyone. Just before we

7 recommence, one minor adjustment to our housekeeping arrangements. When

8 we're sitting for half a day, generally speaking we will try to observe a

9 20-minute break at the first break and a half hour break at the second

10 one. I gather that that will be more convenient all round. So that's

11 what we'll aim for. We may have to adjust it again later once we see how

12 things go but let's see if we can achieve that.

13 Good afternoon, Mr. Peraj.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac will now continue to cross-examine you.

18 Mr. Bakrac.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would

21 kindly ask you for your understanding since this is an important witness

22 for the Defence, I wanted to let you know beforehand that concerning the

23 report I may have perhaps additional three questions, and as regards the

24 28th in the morning, I'll have another four, and then I will ask for us to

25 move into private session briefly because I wanted to pose two or three

Page 1643

1 questions to the witness which would require that since some of the

2 activities that may be discussed perhaps better not be discussed in open

3 session, and of course I will do my utmost to finish as early as possible.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll deal with the question of private

5 session as and when we come it. Meanwhile, please carry on with the

6 questions you initially have in mind.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Peraj, yesterday we were discussing the report for which you

9 claim you saw Major Zdravko Vinter to have typed it out at around

10 10.00 p.m. Is it correct that in the Milosevic case, that was transcript

11 page 4730, lines 4 through 7, that you stated there, an amicus curiae

12 question:

13 "Q. You haven't mentioned that report in your first statement.

14 A. I had said previously that I probably didn't remember that

15 at the time."

16 Is that correct? Is this what you stated?

17 A. The truth of the matter is I did see the report. The fact that I

18 didn't mention it is probably because no one asked about it, but I

19 probably didn't mention it.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Peraj. Is it correct, Mr. Peraj, that in the

21 Milosevic case, transcript page 7 -- 4733, lines 10 through 14, you stated

22 the following, an amicus curiae question:

23 "Q. Did that report contain more than one page?

24 A. Usually, depending on the events of that day, reports would

25 comprise several pages but only a few because that needed to be

Page 1644

1 transmitted via military communication, and it was difficult to send it

2 out in the form of a letter. As far as I can remember, when it was

3 printed out, the report contained one and a half pages."

4 Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's true, because that report was one and half pages long,

6 and I did mention that several reports were shorter, and they were

7 ciphered when they were transmitted.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Peraj. Is it correct that in your latest statement

9 dated the 8th and the 9th of August, 2006, in paragraph 86 you stated the

10 following: So as not to have any misinterpretation, I will read it out in

11 English: [Previous translations continues] ..."[In English] Incident in

12 Meja I saw in the computer we had at the cultural centre that 68 men were

13 killed in Meja and 74 in Korenica."

14 Is this correct?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. I was told

17 that we don't have the beginning of the paragraph in the transcript.

18 [Previous translation continues] ..."Four days later, the incident in

19 Meja."

20 Q. Now, you've just confirmed that this is correct. Could you please

21 tell me, Mr. Peraj, then, what is correct? Did you see that report on

22 the 27th in the evening, or four days later after the incident in Meja?

23 Which of the two is correct?

24 A. I saw the report on the 27th of April in the evening after

25 10.00 p.m. And when you mention the four days later, that's confusion,

Page 1645

1 because I mentioned it four days after the report because I was visiting

2 my family, and it was on the 29th that --

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Peraj.

4 MR. STAMP: The witness is explaining the difference he was asked

5 about.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed. Surely we should hear the rest of that

7 answer, Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I thought the witness

9 finished but I believe we have his complete answer.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't finished though.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Please complete your answer, Mr. Peraj.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Four days after seeing the report,

13 on the fourth day, I went to my family and took them out and got them to

14 Dallashaj. And perhaps there will be a question about where I saw -- how

15 I saw the bodies. That was on the 29th. That wouldn't third day. There

16 might be a confusion there, but that's the date.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, are you pursuing this matter further,

18 Mr. Bakrac, because if you're not then I want to seek clarification.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, didn't he tell us

20 yesterday that on the 28th he asked for a permission to go and see his

21 family? That was one day after the incident in Meja instead of four days

22 later.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's a matter if you wish to explore it in

24 evidence you may. Can you tell me in the previous statements that

25 Mr. Peraj made, is there reference to the -- what's now contained in

Page 1646

1 paragraph 83?

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I believe it is also in the other

3 statement dated -- if I may have a moment. It is the 12th until the 15th

4 of February, 2001. The new statement is a compendium and a bit confusing

5 for that. I'm pretty sure we could find it in the previous statement.

6 MR. STAMP: Maybe I could assist.


8 MR. STAMP: The statement at paragraph 83 of the -- of the 9th of

9 August statement is at -- is in the second statement, that's the 2001

10 statement, at paragraph 53. The statement at paragraph 86 of the

11 statement of the 9th of August is at paragraph 31 of the first statement

12 made in 2000.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Peraj, the question that's being asked is

14 that you have said previously that four days after the incident in Meja

15 you saw in the computer at the cultural centre that 68 men in killed in

16 Meja and 74 men in Korenica.

17 Now, first of all, did you say that in a statement which you gave

18 in the year 2000?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I said.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: And secondly, how does that relate to seeing

21 similar information being written by Major Vinter?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The truth is that on the 27th, in

23 the evening, 10.00 p.m., I saw him writing the report, and that in Meja 68

24 people -- 68 terrorists had been killed, and 74 in Korenica. But four

25 days after the event, I went into the field to get my family out, and for

Page 1647

1 the rest I don't know.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that doesn't, I'm afraid, help me. Four days

3 later were you at the cultural centre?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I was not there. There

5 were the guards who were there who were guarding the palace of culture,

6 the cultural centre.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Why was it then that four days afterwards you --

8 well, why was it, rather, you said in the statement you gave in the year

9 2000 that four days after the incident in Meja you saw in the computer

10 that you had at the cultural centre that 68 men were killed in Meja and

11 74 men in Korenica?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not exactly what I said. No,

13 I would never have said that. I would not have said that four days later,

14 no. No, no, that's not right.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Peraj, to go back to the morning of the 28th of April when you

18 were at the basement in which you allegedly saw Colonel Jeftovic and

19 General Lazarevic, apart from these two did you see anyone else in that

20 basement?

21 A. There was a soldier of the military police there, and there were

22 two soldiers outside, outside the basement of the military police, but

23 there was one in the basement. The one who was in -- down in the basement

24 was there as a policeman but also as an assistant for any tasks which

25 might arise.

Page 1648

1 Q. Since you seem to know what his duties were, you are probably

2 familiar with what his name was as well.

3 A. I don't know his name or the name of the policemen who were

4 outside, because, and please let me speak, because they were from the

5 command of the corps.

6 Q. Mr. Peraj, the 27th of April, can you link that to any other date

7 or that very same date which may have been important in the then

8 Yugoslavia?

9 Perhaps I've put this question poorly. Is there any holiday on

10 that date in Yugoslavia, on the 27th of April?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Perhaps I can refresh your memory. The 27th of April was the

13 national day of Yugoslavia at the time.

14 A. I don't think that such national holidays are celebrated in

15 wartime, or at least not celebrated openly.

16 Q. Did you know that on the 27th of April in Pristina there was a

17 rally held to honour the 27th of April and General Lazarevic was at that

18 rally?

19 A. There may have been various rallies in Pristina. I don't know.

20 Q. Mr. Peraj, I put it to you that Mr. Vladimir Lazarevic was not in

21 Djakovica neither on the 27th nor on the 28th of April and that you know

22 that very well. Isn't that true?

23 A. Which 27th of April do you mean? In -- on the 27th of April,

24 1999? I saw him in that building that I mentioned.

25 Q. Therefore, you saw him on the 27th of April and not on the 28th;

Page 1649

1 is that correct?

2 A. Sorry, that's a mistake on my part. It's the 28th in the morning,

3 I mean. Sorry, that's a mistake on my part.

4 Q. Mr. Peraj, in the Milosevic case did you not testify that General

5 Lazarevic, at the time of action in Meja, was in Pristina? Is that

6 correct?

7 A. I don't remember saying whether he was in Pristina or Gjakova. I

8 don't think I was asked about that. To be -- briefly, I don't remember.

9 Q. Mr. Peraj, perhaps I can refresh your memory. In the transcript

10 page 4744, lines 17 through 25, and page 4745, lines 1 through 6, Judge

11 Kwon's question:

12 "Q. To go back to that report for the moment, the report prepared

13 by Major Vinter after the operation in Meja. You said that that report

14 was sent to the corps command in Pristina; is that correct?

15 "A. Yes."

16 Question by Judge Kwon: "I am interested in the commander in

17 Pristina who would receive such reports from the field. Did he know

18 exactly what had happened? Did he know that civilians were killed instead

19 of KLA members and on the basis of what do you form such a view, if you

20 intend to state that he indeed knew?"

21 I apologise for reading very quickly. Do I need to repeat?

22 "A. He knew very well who was killed, and he couldn't put it

23 any other way. He couldn't call these innocent people who had been

24 killed, and by any other name other than terrorists. He did receive such

25 a report by way of radio communication, but such reports were indeed put

Page 1650

1 in that manner.

2 "Q. How did he come to learn about that?"

3 I apologise. To correct the transcript, he received the news via

4 radio but such reports were put in that manner or put together in that

5 manner.

6 "Judge Kwon: How did he come to know about that?

7 "A. I don't know what you mean, the commander or someone else

8 "Judge Kwon: The commander. The commander who was in Pristina.

9 "A. He learned it first from those authorised to provide direct

10 information to him in writing, in two different ways, and he also had a

11 direct link with -- with his personnel who were there."

12 Therefore, Mr. Peraj, did you indeed state this in the Milosevic

13 case?

14 MR. STAMP: Well, before we get to that question, he just asserted

15 that the witness in the Milosevic case said that the commander was in

16 Pristina during the Meja incident. He said that this witness said that in

17 the Milosevic case, and now he has read a long extract from the transcript

18 which I thought would make it clear to us where it is that this witness

19 was supposed to have said so in the Milosevic case, but that has not been

20 demonstrated by the transcript, unless the wrong bit of transcript was

21 read just now.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you understand by --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: The commander by --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Bonomy, please.

Page 1651

1 MR. STAMP: He did not say that.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Who said it?

3 MR. STAMP: That was Judge Kwon. He said: "It is not clear what

4 you mean."

5 He said, may I read the transcript: "It is not clear to me who

6 the commander or who else." Judge Kwon said the commander in Pristina, is

7 it in Pristina.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, I need to see -- you have the benefit over

9 me because I don't have the transcript in front of me.

10 MR. STAMP: In other words, what is being put to the witness is an

11 interpretation.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, indeed. But the way it came up here it

13 indicates that he was the one who used the words "the commander who was in

14 Pristina."

15 MR. STAMP: No, no. In the transcript I have it is Judge Kwon who

16 said so.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, what do you have to say to that?

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I beg to disagree with

19 this objection. If my learned friend objects to me misreading the actual

20 transcript that is fine, but I did not draw any conclusions. Judge Kwon

21 asked specifically about the commander. I intentionally began a few lines

22 before that question so that we would know exactly that the commander of

23 the Pristina Corps was being discussed. And then Judge Kwon asks again,

24 the commander, the commander in Pristina, and then we have the witness's

25 answer. So the witness never denied. He never said not in Pristina but

Page 1652

1 in Djakovica. Quite the contrary. He confirmed what was put to him in

2 the question.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it seems to me that going over this with the

4 witness is going to get none of us anywhere. It's matter for

5 interpretation in due course. You've done your duty by at least drawing

6 attention to it, but it's very difficult, I think, without full argument

7 and having seen the rest of the evidence to draw any conclusion from this

8 on its own. So move on, please.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. Indeed, I will move on.

10 Q. Mr. Peraj, will you agree if I said that logically and

11 linguistically interpreted the IKM, the forward command post, is something

12 which describes a place physically separate from the corps command?

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, I understood you had two matters to

14 deal with. Are we back to the forward command post which we've been over

15 at great length yesterday?

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one question for

17 Mr. Peraj. I just want to know whether this indeed refreshed his memory,

18 and does he know who was the Chief of Staff of the corps at that time.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, very well. But this seems to me yet another

20 matter. We're now 25 minutes into your examination today. You gave me an

21 assurance you had a few questions on two subjects before there might be a

22 matter of -- that would require private session, and we're now back to yet

23 another subject that we had explored yesterday. So please give me

24 accurate information when you're telling me about the extent to which you

25 will further cross-examine a witness. Carry on with this question.

Page 1653

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Can you now remember the name of the corps Chief of Staff?

3 A. You asked me this question yesterday.

4 Q. What was his name?

5 A. I told you yesterday that before General Lazarevic took over the

6 command there was a General Pavkovic. That was in 1999, the beginning of

7 1999. The command changed at that time. And yesterday I told you that I

8 could not remember the name of the head of staff, Chief of Staff.

9 Q. Do you know by a -- a certain officer by the name of Veroljub

10 Zivkovic?

11 A. I've heard the name, but I don't remember exactly who it is,

12 what -- or whether he was the one who took over the post.

13 Q. My last question, Your Honour, before we move into private session

14 is: Is it correct that concerning the 137th Brigade of the KLA comprising

15 of both uniformed and un-uniformed men that you actually let them know

16 about this via your brother-in-law?

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not catch the name. Could

18 Mr. Bakrac please repeat.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, the interpreters ask you to repeat that

20 question, please.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Peraj, in early June, did you notify the 137th Brigade of the

23 KLA in Ramoc that they are surrounded by the VJ and MUP forces and that

24 this notification was conveyed to them by Pal Gjoklaj, your brother or

25 son-in-law?

Page 1654

1 A. Yes, that's true.

2 Q. Is it also correct that the very same person was present when you

3 provided the first statement to the OTP, and he was there neither in the

4 capacity of an interpreter nor of an investigator? Is that correct?

5 A. He was there as an interpreter, as a translator for English.

6 Q. Mr. Peraj, wasn't there an interpreter there? Now, I'm sorry, I

7 will not pronounce this right, I am sure. Taulant Saraqini was that not

8 the interpreter? Was that person not the interpreter at that interview?

9 A. He was the interpreter. He was the official interpreter. I heard

10 him. I asked that Pal Gjoklaj be present and that was authorised.

11 Q. So what is written here is not correct; namely, that the

12 interpreter was Taulant Saraqini.

13 A. If I'm not mistaken, Paolo Pastore Stocchi was there from the

14 court, from the Tribunal, and he could tell you exactly who was there

15 because he had the person with him. And this person did the interpreting

16 and helped Paolo -- Pal for several times. Pal helped him.

17 Q. But your assertion is that Pal Gjoklaj interpreted the interview;

18 right?

19 A. No, he helped him. He helped Taulant several times because

20 Taulant was not in a -- he needed assistance.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Peraj.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, very briefly could we

23 move into closed session now?

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, which statement is that you were

25 referring to?

Page 1655

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's the first statement

2 that the witness gave to the OTP of the Tribunal, or, rather, the 18th of

3 April, 2000. Yes.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: And does it reflect the presence of Pal Gjoklaj?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm going to read this out.

6 "Interview conducted by Paolo Pastore Stocchi."

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I find that, Mr. Bakrac.

8 Now, Mr. Peraj, what is the relationship between you and Pal

9 Gjoklaj?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not Pal Dzokaj; it's Pal

11 Gjoklaj. He is the brother of my wife.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Bakrac, why is it, in general

13 terms, that you wish a private session?

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have some information

15 about the activities, possible activities, of this witness that could

16 compromise -- well, I'd just like to check through two questions. I mean,

17 if you allow me to do so in closed session.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: You need to explain to me why we have to enter

19 closed session.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] In view of certain activities that

21 were not public, and I'm afraid I might compromise the witness's safety

22 and security if I were to ask for an answer.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's a good enough reason for going into

24 private session, which we shall now do.

25 [Private session]

Page 1656











11 Page 1656 redacted. Private session.















Page 1657

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Peraj, after the 27th and 28th of April, you continued to go

18 to work in the army of Yugoslavia. Isn't that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. For a month and a half after this event, right?

21 A. Yes. And after the events of the 27th and 28th of April too.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

23 further questions for this witness.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I suspect

Page 1658

1 that my examination will take an hour, maybe a little bit more, and I will

2 try to conduct the examination while standing, Your Honour, but if I need

3 to sit may I have the indulgence of the Court to do so?

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Certainly, yes.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Peraj.

8 A. Good afternoon, sir.

9 Q. My name is John Ackerman. I am counsel for General Pavkovic. I

10 will try to be very brief with you. Whether I succeed in that or not will

11 depend a great deal on how you answer the questions. If you listen very

12 carefully to my questions and only answer what I ask you, then we can get

13 through this rather quickly. Can you try to do that?

14 A. I will certainly try, sir.

15 Q. I noticed during your testimony yesterday, Mr. Peraj, that you

16 seemed to have trouble simply saying that you don't know something. If a

17 question is asked that you don't know the answer to, you seem to try to

18 answer it in any event. Let me assure you that it's okay to say that you

19 don't know something if you don't know it. Do you understand that?

20 A. I understand.

21 Q. I want to spend a little bit of time going through your final

22 statement to the OTP, and before I go into that in any detail, I would

23 like to go back to and issue that was raised just a few moments ago by

24 Mr. Bakrac and that the Judge asked you some questions about, and that was

25 the language that appears, first of all, in your statement of 18 April,

Page 1659

1 2000, and it's that statement where -- the statement claims that you

2 said: "Four days later, after the incident in Meja, I saw the computer we

3 had at the cultural centre," and you told us today that four days later

4 you were not at the cultural centre. And I wonder how this came to be in

5 your statement on the 18th of April if you didn't say it.

6 A. Your Honour, I have already stated and will repeat. In the

7 evening of the 27th of April, I saw the report being written --

8 Q. You don't need to repeat all that. My question was very simple.

9 How did it get in the statement if you didn't say it? Just answer that

10 question.

11 A. I don't know how it came about myself, because I think I have

12 stated this. Four days later -- four days later from the day I saw it in

13 the computer, I went to bring back my family to Dallashaj. This may be a

14 misunderstanding. Otherwise, I didn't say anything else. I didn't say

15 four days later.

16 Q. I understand it's your position --

17 A. In the sense you mention.

18 Q. I understand that's your position. But it's a curious one,

19 because I have in front of me the statement of 18 April 2000. There's an

20 indication that it was read back to you, that you confirmed that it was

21 correct, and that you actually signed the bottom of each page saying that

22 everything in that statement was correct. Now, did they fail to read back

23 to you the paragraph that said four days later you saw the computer in the

24 cultural centre? Is that what happened?

25 A. They read it out to me from the computer. It was written in

Page 1660

1 English. It was translated to me in Serbo-Croatian, and I thought that it

2 was okay, and I signed it in English.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: That raises in my mind another question. You say

4 that what you believe you said was, "Four days later from the day I saw it

5 in the computer." Where did you see it in the computer?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the basement of the palace of

7 culture in Gjakova.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: And when was that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the evening of 27th of April,

10 after 10.00, or 2200 hours.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

12 Mr. Ackerman.


14 Q. The next thing that makes it curious, Mr. Peraj, is that -- that

15 later, and it's difficult to tell when this was because it says it was

16 18 April 2000. I think it may have been 18 April 2001. But you were

17 given an opportunity to -- to look at your statements and make any

18 corrections you thought should be made, and this is a -- that statement

19 is -- the ERN 03079346. It says it's 18 April 2000 but it's clearly a

20 later date because you talk about referring to a statement of February

21 2001. And this is a statement where you were interviewed by Annette

22 Murtaugh. And you were given an opportunity to look at both of your prior

23 statements and make corrections and you did. You made corrections, and

24 there are three pages of corrections. But you didn't correct that

25 statement about seeing it four days later, did you?

Page 1661

1 A. I am telling you the truth as I have been saying so far; namely,

2 that on the 27th of April, 1999, I saw this in the computer.

3 Q. You've told us that many times. We don't need to hear it again.

4 I'm asking you why you didn't correct that statement when you had the

5 opportunity in that second -- that third statement that you gave making

6 all the corrections. That's all I'm asking you. Don't tell me about

7 the 27th anymore. You've told us that three or four times now. We're

8 trying to finish here. We don't need to hear you say that over and over.

9 A. I, too, to tell you the truth noted that there is a mistake.

10 Either it was because of a print error or when they were added, merged

11 into one statement.

12 Q. Well, that's the next problem. On the 8th and 9th of August,

13 2006, you signed another statement, and on paragraph 86 of that statement

14 the exact same language appears, which you said you didn't ever say. And

15 in that statement, that exact same language is there, and at the bottom of

16 that page is your signature indicating that you read it and it was

17 correct.

18 Now, how can it be that you have now had three chances to correct

19 this and all three times you've left it the way it was and now you tell us

20 today that you never said it? How can that be?

21 A. This is a mistake. If you want to accept it, please do.

22 Otherwise, there is nothing else I can say. I didn't say it the way it's

23 put here. That is not true. That cannot be four days later.

24 Q. Well, I understand that's your position, and I put it to you that

25 you're not being truthful with the Tribunal at this very moment.

Page 1662

1 I want to now go to --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what's the -- that requires an answer, if

3 it's a question, and I assume it's a question because that's what we're

4 doing at the moment, asking questions.

5 What's your response to the proposition, Mr. Peraj, that you've

6 been lying about this?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Firstly, I have not come here to

8 tell lies. I am fully aware of my responsibility, moral, material, or

9 otherwise.


11 Q. I want to ask you about paragraph 6 of your most recent statement.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you move on, Mr. Ackerman.

13 I'm back to the question I asked you earlier, Mr. Peraj. You

14 mentioned yesterday that you had an opportunity to -- or, rather, that

15 Mr. Vinter left the report lying around for an hour or so; is that

16 correct?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: And you said that he did that after taking it out

19 of the typewriter. Did you mean to say that?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the computer, that part of the

21 computer that prints. It was not a manual typewriter. And he left it

22 lying around and then put it into an envelope.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand. Thank you.

24 Mr. Ackerman.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1663

1 Q. In paragraph 6 of your most recent statement, you speak about

2 having met General Pavkovic in 1998 numerous times when you were duty

3 officer, and you said that you would brief him. What do you mean you

4 would brief General Pavkovic? What would you brief General Pavkovic

5 about?

6 A. According to the working rules, every day the duty officer of the

7 barracks had to wait for the commander at the entrance and report to him

8 if there was anything new or if there was something that happened during

9 the time he was on duty and the commander wasn't there. That was a

10 regular thing we did on a daily basis or in the evening.

11 Q. And I take it that many of those briefings then involved you

12 reporting to General Pavkovic about KLA activity that had gone on during

13 that previous period when you were on duty?

14 A. No. No, that is not true. We were supposed to report that

15 nothing new had occurred or that something had happened. Within the

16 barracks, I mean. This is in terms of the garrison, the command, not

17 other details, because that was not my duty.

18 Q. I understand. Thank you. You took the position yesterday when

19 you were asked about deserting from the army that you really didn't desert

20 from the army, you just stayed home. And my question is: When the army

21 left Kosovo, your unit left Kosovo and you didn't go with your unit;

22 correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And it was your duty to go with your unit. You were a member of

25 the army. Your unit was moving to another location. It was your duty,

Page 1664

1 and by failing to go with them, you actually deserted, didn't you?

2 A. It may be taken that way. That is of no interest to me.

3 Q. Well, is it of interest to you that you have a 15-year prison

4 sentence for desertion?

5 A. I was told the same by Milosevic and a friend of mine informed me,

6 but officially I have not received any notification, so I don't know.

7 Q. Are you being protected in any way by anyone from serving that

8 sentence? Is anyone protecting you, giving you any kind of protection to

9 protect you from being arrested and put in gaol?

10 A. No. I wouldn't go just anywhere.

11 Q. Have you been -- have you been told by the Office of the

12 Prosecutor here that they will protect you from serving this sentence?

13 A. No, never.

14 Q. Do you know whether or not there is a warrant outstanding for your

15 arrest in Serbia?

16 A. I have no knowledge of that.

17 Q. I take it you did not come here under any kind of a safe conduct

18 provision of any kind to protect you from arrest for that offence. Is

19 that true?

20 A. I don't know. I don't think it's true that I have any protection

21 because of that arrest warrant. I think this is a rule given the

22 situation that exists in Kosovo, in Serbia, because witnesses are being

23 killed. Several witnesses have been killed.

24 Q. I want to go now to a different subject. Thank you for your

25 answers to that.

Page 1665

1 Your -- your statement of a few days ago, August this year,

2 paragraph 12, you indicate that the paramilitary units were not under the

3 control of the VJ army, and of course that would include Arkan's Tigers,

4 Seselj's White Eagles, and the Frenki's, also known as the Black Hand,

5 wouldn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In paragraph 15, you set out the groups, the paramilitary groups,

8 reservists and so forth, that committed the worst horrible crimes in

9 Gjakova city. How do you know that those were the people that committed

10 those crimes? How do you come by that information?

11 A. I know that from the places I have visited. Wherever I've been, I

12 didn't see any members of the regular army on the scenes of the crimes,

13 and I have seen members of such units, White Eagles of Seselj, and members

14 of Arkan's units. They were all the Arkanovci and so on. Some refer to

15 themselves as Frenki's. I've seen reservist police, local police, regular

16 police. This is where I base my information.

17 Q. And in that regard you said that these -- these forces that

18 committed these horrible crimes were out of the control of the VJ command

19 leadership, didn't you?

20 A. This is my opinion. I don't believe that all these things would

21 have happened had they been under its control.

22 Q. You -- you also told us in your statement that the reservists,

23 that 50 per cent of them had a criminal background. Is that just an

24 estimate or did you actually check the criminal background of all the

25 reservists?

Page 1666

1 A. In the barracks where I was, we had reservists who left and joined

2 these forces to be free to do where the winds took them, because these

3 reservists were members of the radical -- Serb Radical Party, Arkan's

4 party, and when they went to cities they joined these units.

5 Q. I understand that. My question really is: The 50 per cent -- you

6 said 50 per cent had criminal records. Are you just estimating that or

7 did you actually check?

8 A. I feel I have to make an improvement in what I have stated. Maybe

9 I've exaggerated the figure of 50 per cent, but the actions committed by

10 them, burning of houses, plundering and raids, maltreating of people,

11 casting stones at them, looting, all these terrible things I think can be

12 done by criminals alone. This is where I base my estimate.

13 Q. Thank you. And in that -- in that vein, the rapes that you heard

14 about resulted in reservists being arrested and convicted, didn't it?

15 A. Yes. There had been such cases.

16 Q. And you know, you told us in the statement that VJ commanders did

17 not order soldiers to rape women, that -- isn't that true?

18 A. That is true. They didn't order them, but the soldiers acted

19 against the orders.

20 Q. Well, these were the criminals that you're talking about, weren't

21 they?

22 A. They were criminals, of course, because only criminals can do such

23 things.

24 Q. Rape -- rape was not a policy of the VJ or part of any kind of a

25 plan, was it?

Page 1667

1 A. I can confirm that it was not.

2 Q. These rapes were, I think you've told us were isolated incidents

3 and that they were perpetrated by these out-of-control criminal elements

4 that were there. Is that a fair statement?

5 A. Yes, I think so.

6 Q. Now, one of the things that paragraphs 42 through 45 of the

7 statement, you tend to talk about this, these VJ reservists that you talk

8 about leaving and going off and joining the paramilitaries, as they were

9 reservists they were wearing the same uniforms as the regular VJ, weren't

10 they?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And my question is when they went off and joined up with the

13 paramilitaries, it's a fact that they kept those uniforms and were wearing

14 those same uniforms when they were engaged in activities with paramilitary

15 organisations, weren't they?

16 A. Part of them kept the same uniforms, these of the regular army.

17 Some of them had changed uniforms.

18 Q. And you told us in your statement that all the paramilitaries wore

19 MUP and VJ uniforms and even occasionally MUP and VJ insignia, right?

20 A. Can you please repeat the question?

21 Q. You told us in your statement that the paramilitaries wore MUP and

22 VJ uniforms that had MUP and VJ insignia on them. I think it's

23 paragraph 43. I'll check. Paragraph 42.

24 A. They wore those uniforms, but in most cases they had combined

25 uniforms. For example, military trousers where the top was kind of

Page 1668

1 civilian clothes like bandanna, black bandannas tied on their heads, black

2 sweaters, and things like that.

3 Q. If they're wearing these MUP uniforms and these VJ uniforms that

4 have the MUP and VJ insignia on them as you've said in paragraph 42, a

5 casual observer might confuse them for being actual MUP and VJ soldiers

6 and police. That's possible, isn't it?

7 A. Yes, it may be possible. But they deliberately wore those

8 uniforms.

9 There is something I want to tell you. The population, I mean

10 ordinary population, looked differently at the regular army compared to

11 these forces that I'm mentioning now wearing bandannas or the local

12 police. They looked at them quite differently from these other forces.

13 Q. How?

14 A. They made use of the military uniform to go into people's homes

15 and commit various crimes.

16 Q. All right. Thank you. I mean, you did say that the ordinary

17 population viewed the -- the army differently from these groups. Tell us

18 how. They -- you've indicated that they trusted the army and let them

19 into their homes and things like that and turned it out to be these

20 paramilitary types. Am I right?

21 A. Yes. They had some sympathy for the army. I can't say that they

22 loved them, but they had another opinion of the regular army. They had

23 some sympathy for the regular army, even though times were very hard

24 indeed.

25 Q. And I think you're kind of in a unique position to know that,

Page 1669

1 because not only were you a member of the regular army during that period

2 of time, but also you were a Kosovo resident, Albanian, and so you had

3 contacts with a lot of the local people that the regular army maybe didn't

4 have, and so I think you're in a unique position to know that. Am I

5 right?

6 A. Yes, I believe so.

7 Q. Now, in paragraph 40 you talked about the Frenki's or the Black

8 Hand being the worst of the paramilitaries, and you said that in Djakovica

9 there were 20 or 30 of them who would gather and spend the night expelling

10 people from their homes, burning and looting and most likely killing. How

11 do you know about this?

12 A. I know this because they -- they got together very near the army's

13 house at a place there, kind of bar or restaurant, and until late in the

14 evening they used to drink, sing nationalistic songs. And then when night

15 fell, you could see houses in flames and hear fire shots. And I heard

16 from policemen say -- several policemen who were near them say -- near

17 this army house say this. Also, I heard it from a colleague of mine. We

18 were together from Perovic who said that this is being done by Frenki's

19 men together with some lads from Gjakova city who joined them because

20 these lads knew the terrain well, and together they perpetrated heinous

21 crimes. But police also helped them, the regular police and the reservist

22 police.

23 I have seen it with my own eyes when houses near the bus station

24 were being torched. I have seen there regular police standing by a little

25 bit further away, whereas these other people that I mentioned threw bombs

Page 1670

1 to help the houses get fire more quickly. And when we went -- when I

2 wanted to do something to help these people or the houses that were being

3 burned, the commander said, "Mind your own business. You don't have any

4 right to meddle up in what is happening."

5 Q. You told us in your statement about a time where there was a

6 problem with these paramilitaries drinking and misbehaving and so forth at

7 the Pastriku hotel, and Colonel Djosan sent you there to put a stop to it.

8 The first question I have is: When you went there, did you go in your

9 army uniform?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you take any other members of the army with you?

12 A. Yes. I had two or three -- I think three soldiers with me.

13 Q. And you did not stop the situation but said in your

14 statement, "But with the drunken state of the people in the hotel and

15 their weaponry, it would have been too risky, so it was not pursued."

16 How would it have been too risky? What was the risk that you were

17 facing there?

18 A. The overwhelming majority of them were under the effect of alcohol

19 or some other substance, I don't know. Expressions they used. I may tell

20 you that they immediately showed who they were. Personally, they have

21 told me, "You must call our boss to tell him to make us leave the hotel."

22 Because I had taken orders to close down the hotel, to remove them from

23 there because they drank and fired their weapons. In the light of day

24 they could fire their weapons, and the noise was so -- so heavy that you

25 could believe that it was fighting taking place. Colonel Novica Stankovic

Page 1671

1 went there with some soldiers and -- and followed him while he was firing

2 his weapon in the air.

3 So we failed -- correction, they fired [Realtime transcript read

4 in error "filed"] at Colonel Novica. So both of us failed in our attempts

5 to drive them out of the hotel.

6 Q. So the risk that you were facing was that they would actually kill

7 you, shoot at you and kill you. Is that the risk that you're talking

8 about?

9 A. Yes, this is what I mean.

10 Q. And when you talk about Colonel Novica Stankovic, I think you

11 said, going there, that was the chief of the brigade that when you came

12 back and said you couldn't do anything said he'd go take care of it, and

13 he couldn't take care of it either?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And he also went in VJ uniform and took VJ soldiers with him,

16 didn't he?

17 A. Yes, he did.

18 Q. There was a --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Just an intervention with the transcript.

21 Page 29, 23. It says that they filed at Colonel Novica. I heard "fired."

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you very much.

23 Mr. Ackerman.


25 Q. At paragraph 46, you -- you sort of emphasised what you've just

Page 1672

1 told us. You said that the paramilitary tended not to be responsive to VJ

2 directions even though the VJ had tried. One of the ways the VJ tried was

3 what you've just described to us; correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. In paragraph 51, you talk about being in a car with Djosan, and he

6 told you that a couple of people called Kovacevic and Micunovic were doing

7 unauthorised things and blaming it on the VJ. Did he tell you any details

8 about that, about what kind of unauthorised things they were doing that

9 they were blaming on the VJ?

10 A. He didn't tell me what they blamed the army for.

11 If you allow me, I can explain, Your Honour. Do you think I can

12 be allowed to give an explanation?

13 JUDGE BONOMY: If Mr. Ackerman wants to hear.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to hear it.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. Carry on, Mr. Peraj.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to -- to return Colonel

17 Djosan from a meeting being held in the primary school Mustafa Bakija.

18 When they left that meeting, in the school courtyard they exchanged some

19 words, Djosan and Micunovic. Micunovic behaved very badly towards the

20 commander, towards Djosan. I intervened and pushed back him, and the

21 colonel got into the car. He had a soldier -- he had one soldier and I

22 had one soldier who served as bodyguards.

23 On the way, the commander Djosan told me that Micunovic and

24 Kovacevic are doing unlawful things, are committing unlawful acts towards

25 the population. This is what I wanted to explain. Maybe this is why they

Page 1673

1 had that argument, that conflict.


3 Q. I want to ask you now about the killing of Milutin Prascevic.

4 What do you know about how he was killed and where was he killed?

5 A. I can't give you accurate reasons why, but I can give you my piece

6 of mind if you want. He was a police officer, an inspector, in fact, a

7 police inspector, and he used to interrogate various persons for whom it

8 is said that he has maltreated them, beaten them up, detained them in the

9 basement, not from Lugu i Carragojs alone but also from other regions of

10 Gjakova municipality. For this reason, maybe someone has taken revenge on

11 him or retaliated against him. And second, he was a policeman and the

12 policeman was viewed not with a good eye, and they were often the target

13 of attacks by KLA, for example, or someone else.

14 As to the accurate date, I cannot say. It was the mid of April,

15 either 14th or the 15th. I can't be accurate. But I only know that maybe

16 one week, 10 days passed by and the massacre was committed in May [as

17 interpreted].

18 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that -- these events that you

19 just described as a massacre were some kind of revenge for the killing of

20 Prascevic?

21 A. It is possible that this is the reason. It's very likely, in my

22 opinion.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the transcript 32, line 9, says "May"

24 and it should say "Meja." It refers to a month rather than a village.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. That will be revised.

Page 1674

1 Thank you.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm at an appropriate -- I'm sorry.

3 I'm at an appropriate break point if you want to break now. I'm going

4 into a new area that will take time.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. We'll take advantage of that.

6 We will resume just after 4.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Peraj, I'm now going to paragraph 74 of your most recent

12 statement where you're talking about a visit you made to the Meja area on

13 the 27th of April. You went to --

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Yes. You talked about being at that checkpoint in the -- near the

16 house of Hasanaj, and you said this: "When we arrived near the house we

17 saw people lying on the meadow with the face on the grass. Major Zivkovic

18 went to speak to the officers at the police checkpoint in front of Hasanaj

19 house. I went to the meadow and there I saw about 20 bodies of men, dead

20 bodies of men. I turned some of the bodies to see if I could recognise

21 some of them."

22 Now, when you say you turned them, you were actually turning

23 them -- they were lying face down. You were turning them over onto their

24 backs to see if you could see who they were?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1675

1 Q. And while you were doing this, while you were looking at these

2 bodies, a soldier who was with you grabbed your arm and took you away, you

3 say because a paramilitary soldier was pointing his gun against you from

4 two or three metres away.

5 A. Yes, it was like that. But it -- he was not very far. He was

6 only one metre away.

7 Q. I take it you were in your VJ uniform.

8 A. Yes. And I had a gun.

9 Q. Did you feel that this paramilitary was threatening in some way

10 for investigating those deaths, trying to figure out what had happened

11 there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In the next paragraph you said that: "Together with Major

14 Zivkovic we were pretending that I could recognise some of my relatives

15 among the victims."

16 Now, why were you pretending that?

17 A. Because I thought I recognised some people, but their faces were

18 so mutilated and the blood was on their face, so it was impossible to

19 recognise anyone.

20 Q. But I'm curious about the statement that you and Major Zivkovic

21 were pretending that you could recognise a relative. Who were you

22 pretending to? Were you telling somebody that some of the dead people

23 were your relatives? How were you pretending?

24 A. Well, these people were not my relatives, and I knew before going

25 there that my family was not there. Twenty-one members of my family had

Page 1676

1 been sheltered away from that area. So I knew that members of my family

2 were not there. But I thought maybe I could recognise someone from my

3 village.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: The question you're being asked, Mr. Peraj, is why

5 you were pretending that you could see recognise some of your relatives.

6 Why were you doing that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the beginning I thought that they

8 were co-villagers, but before I went there, as I said, we said --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Assuming -- assuming they were co-villagers, what

10 was the purpose in pretending that they were your relatives?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's being confused, I think.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, I can take it no further.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. I want to -- I want to move on. We're still on paragraph 75.

15 Now, sometime after this incident we're talking about where you were

16 looking at the bodies and the paramilitary pointed a gun at you, you

17 apparently became involved in trying to aid some people that were lined up

18 against a wall of the store. This was at about 1600 hours on that day,

19 and they had apparently been lined up there by an individual by the name

20 of Scepanovic, and you were trying to intercede on behalf of those people

21 with Scepanovic, and I think you told us that -- that you were telling

22 Scepanovic that you knew these people, they were from your valley and they

23 hadn't done anything and that he should release them, and Scepanovic told

24 you that they were separatists and terrorists, and you then told him that

25 was not possible because they would never go towards the police. You then

Page 1677

1 told Zivkovic that you should also line up with these men because they

2 were from your region and there was no difference between you and them,

3 and Scepanovic said he couldn't grant this to you, he couldn't release

4 them, and there were paramilitary soldiers approaching the place.

5 And tell me what it -- why did you -- right there at the end you

6 throw in that thing about the paramilitary soldiers approaching the place.

7 Tell me what that means. How far away were they? Who were they? How did

8 that affect that situation?

9 A. I say this because when he refused to release the 12 people, then

10 I told my colleague, "How would you feel --" this is not in the statement,

11 but I said to him, "How would you feel if these people were from your own

12 country, from your own village?" And then he called the officer who was

13 400 or 500 metres away. He was a lieutenant, and he told him to come up

14 where we were together with his soldiers.

15 When the lieutenant and the soldiers came to where we were, then

16 this person -- I can't remember the name now. I'm trying to recall his

17 name. Oh, yes. It's Scepanovic. He asked, "Why did you call the

18 soldiers here?" And we told him, "Can't you see that these people are

19 attacking us?" And then Scepanovic ordered these 12 people, he was

20 insulting them in the meantime, so he ordered them to leave, get on the

21 tractors. There were three tractors near there. The tractors were not

22 theirs though. And --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Peraj, stop there, please. You're not

24 answering the question, so we better give Mr. Ackerman a chance to ask it

25 again or ask for clarification. Please listen to the question you're

Page 1678

1 being asked and try to answer the actual question that you're being asked.


3 Q. Mr. Peraj, I think there may be some confusion here in the way the

4 statement is written. In paragraph 77, you talk about paramilitary

5 soldiers approaching the place, and then in 78 you talk about VJ soldiers

6 approaching the place. Now, were there both paramilitary and VJ

7 approaching that area, or was it just one group that were either

8 paramilitary or VJ?

9 A. At the scene where people were killed, paramilitaries of various

10 formations were there and policemen, while the regular soldiers were 400

11 or 500 metres away in the direction of Gjakova at a tyre repairing shop.

12 We were up there, and what we did going there was this: That we wanted to

13 tell them, if you need our help, so if the soldiers needed, the VJ

14 soldiers needed any help, then we were there to offer that help to them.

15 Q. All right, let me do this: Let me suggest to you what I think

16 you're saying here, and you tell me if what I'm saying is correct. You

17 were asking Scepanovic to release these 12 men that he had lined up on

18 this building. Twelve or 15. I don't remember the number now. Yes, it

19 was 12. You were asking him to release them, that they'd done nothing

20 wrong, and he was telling you that they were terrorists and so forth and

21 he was refusing to release them, and then Zivkovic called the lieutenant

22 that was with the soldiers, 400 metres away, and asked him to bring the

23 soldiers there. When Scepanovic saw the VJ soldiers approaching, he

24 changed his behaviour and released the men who were lined up and told them

25 to leave on the tractors. Is that what happened?

Page 1679

1 A. Yes, that's what happened.

2 Q. All right. Thank you.

3 Paragraph 80. This is a different subject. You talked about

4 seeing in Meja on that day near the Serbian house, you said, three jeeps

5 with paramilitary soldiers belonging to Arkan units, and you said you were

6 able to identify them as Arkan units because you'd seen them near the

7 barracks in Gjakova earlier. And then you said this: "I recall that my

8 commander ordered me not to allow these paramilitary soldiers in our

9 premises."

10 When you say "our premises," are you referring to the VJ barracks?

11 A. Yes, I mean the barracks.

12 Q. And why did your commander not want to allow the Arkan units in

13 your premises?

14 A. Not only Arkan's men but also other paramilitaries, because they

15 caused problems with the other soldiers we had and the reservists as well,

16 because the soldiers and the reservists were organised in formations,

17 different formations in our brigade. But they caused problems because

18 they brought alcohol in the premises and other things. And they contacted

19 various soldiers or reservists and wanted to take them away with them,

20 wanted them to join their units. So that's why we didn't want them to

21 enter the premises.

22 Q. All right. Thank you. I think it was on the 28th, and if I'm

23 wrong you can correct me, that you were trying to get to your house to see

24 what the status of your house was, and you said: "I did not get to my

25 house," this is paragraph 91, "I did not get to my house because there was

Page 1680

1 still a lot of live fire in the area."

2 Q. What do you mean there was live fire in the area? Was there --

3 were there battles going on, clashes between KLA and military, or -- what

4 was the live fire that was going on? NATO bombing?

5 A. No. It was gunshots, sporadic gunshots, random gunshots. Because

6 there was some wooded areas there, excuse me, not a big forest, just a

7 grove, and they thought that somebody had been hiding there in the grove,

8 so they shot randomly. And when they saw that nobody came out of the

9 bushes or the trees, I was very certain that there was no one there in the

10 grove because they had left a long time earlier.

11 Q. Well, that sounds like a very specific isolated incident. How did

12 that keep you from going to your house because of live fire?

13 A. I was prevented from going further because I was not allowed to go

14 further. I mean, the Qafa e Osekut was a general -- no, sorry, it was

15 Colonel Milan Kotur and Colonel Novica Stankovic who was also the Chief of

16 Staff of my brigade where I worked. And then houses were on fire, all the

17 houses. So there was danger. There was the risk that the forces that

18 were burning the houses, they were still active in the area.

19 Q. Those were the paramilitary forces, right?

20 A. Of course. That's what I mean. The paramilitary and the police.

21 The regular police and the reservist police, including the local police

22 force. Other people have seen them, not only me. They've seen them

23 leaving the area and they've seen them burning the houses, what uniforms

24 they were wearing.

25 Q. I want to talk to you now just briefly -- thank you. And I want

Page 1681

1 to talk to you very briefly about -- and I don't want to go into this in

2 any detail because it's already been explored rather at length, but I do

3 want to ask you one question about this report that you saw Major Vinter

4 preparing that was to go to the Pristina Corps headquarters and presumably

5 from there on up through the chain of command, and that report that's

6 reported the killing of 74 terrorists in Korenica and 68 in Meja.

7 Now, someone reading that report who didn't know any more than

8 what was contained in that report would understand terrorists referred to

9 in that report to be KLA members or KLA sympathisers. That would be their

10 understanding of it barring any other information, wouldn't it?

11 A. When he wrote that they were terrorists, he compared them to KLA

12 and people who commit crimes. This is what the word -- this is what the

13 word means, because civilians were innocent people, but it was these

14 civilians, in fact, that were killed.

15 Q. But the report itself referred to them as terrorists, and

16 assuming -- there's no evidence for this, but assuming that that report

17 went up through the normal channels and made it to 3rd Army headquarters,

18 and assuming that General Pavkovic read that report at 3rd Army

19 headquarters, he would be entitled to presume that what had happened there

20 was that 142 KLA terrorists or criminals had been killed there that day,

21 right?

22 A. Nobody would have written in such a report that civilians,

23 innocent civilians, had been killed. Who could write that? That's why

24 they wrote it in that way.

25 Q. Well, who would write that would be somebody who was --

Page 1682

1 A. They wanted to justify what they had done.

2 Q. My point is General Pavkovic, reading that, would have no reason

3 to believe that it was not true, would he?

4 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Sorry, sir. I here on the Bench would like to

5 respectfully object to this question. I mean, firstly, how can he talk on

6 behalf of General Pavkovic, and how can things be assumed this way? It

7 would be his own statement that would matter, not what others may think

8 about this. I therefore respectfully object to these three questions

9 which have been asked in the same way.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I think that's an appropriate comment, Your Honour.

11 I just --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, the question really requires a

16 speculation on the part of the witness unless you can, first of all,

17 establish a foundation for considering that he would be in a position to

18 answer the question. So if you want to pursue this, you'll need to pursue

19 it in a different way.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge, I agree. It was a purely hypothetical kind

21 of question to start with.

22 Q. And I take it, Mr. Peraj, you have no idea whether General

23 Pavkovic ever received or saw that report. You have no knowledge of that,

24 do you?

25 A. No, I have no information about whether he received such a report

Page 1683

1 or seen it.

2 Q. Now, there was a time, this is paragraph 101 of your statement,

3 that you were on a KLA liquidation list. You were on a list of persons to

4 be killed by the KLA; correct?

5 A. I was told this by Sergej Perovic. He had seen this in the MUP of

6 Gjakova, the list, I mean, and that I was on that list.

7 Q. Well, didn't he show you the list? Didn't you say that, or am I

8 mistaken?

9 A. No. I saw another list.

10 Q. In paragraph 101 of your statement this language appears: "I was

11 on a KLA liquidation list which fell into the hands of the MUP in Dobros

12 during a search. Captain Perovic showed me the list."

13 Is that wrong?

14 A. No. He had his own list. He had written down some names, but he

15 did not give me the list to see. He just waved it to me.

16 Q. So when you said showed you the list, he just showed you a piece

17 of paper which he said was a list?

18 A. I saw that there were names on it, but I was not given the list to

19 read myself. And he said, "You're on this list," and he said also that he

20 himself was on that list.

21 Q. Okay. This series of incidents that went on in that Carragojs

22 valley that you observed yourself on the 27th and the 28th of April, any

23 time there is a situation like that there are lots of rumours about things

24 that happened that turn out not to be true, aren't there?

25 A. If you would allow me to say something, that with regard to the

Page 1684

1 bodies, the rumours that you refer to were true.

2 If I could explain very briefly, Your Honours.

3 Q. No. No. I haven't asked you that question.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: The question is whether in a situation like that on

5 the 27th and 28th there are lots of rumours about things that turn out not

6 to be true. Now, can you answer that question?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's a possibility, yes, and

8 things like that happen.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


11 Q. Yes. And one of those that you talked about at one point was you

12 were told that people had been put in a church at Korenica and all of them

13 had been killed, and you learned later that that was not true, didn't you?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. And in that situation, those rumours, those tales coming out of

16 that chaos, one should be very careful in just accepting them without

17 checking them, shouldn't one?

18 A. Well, I said what other people have told me, but I was aware, of

19 course, that not everything that you are told should be believed.

20 Q. Yes. That was the point. Thank you.

21 You told us -- I want to go back now to this trip -- the trips you

22 made on the 27th and 28th to Meja and Orize, and in your statements to the

23 OTP you said that you were accompanied on those trips by Major Zivkovic.

24 Do you know where Major Zivkovic is? Do you know if he's alive and

25 available?

Page 1685

1 A. He must be alive.

2 Q. Do you know or are you just speculating?

3 A. I do not know. I wish he is alive.

4 Q. All right. I want to ask you about another person by the name of

5 Sergej Perovic. Do you know who he is?

6 A. Sergej Perovic worked together with me in Gjakova Brigade in the

7 barracks. He was a captain.

8 Q. Isn't it the case that the person who went with you to Meja and

9 Orize on the 27th and 28th was not Major Zivkovic as you've said in your

10 statements but this person Sergej Perovic?

11 A. It is true.

12 Q. When you talked about Micunovic, Kotur, and Kovacevic being the

13 persons responsible for what you call the massacre, you've said, haven't

14 you, that they could have prevented all of this from happening, the three

15 of them?

16 A. If you allow me, I'd like to make an explanation to your previous

17 question which I have declared even here in The Hague.

18 Q. Well, I think it would be fair for me to let you do that. Go

19 ahead.

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Q. If there's any chance that we're putting somebody's life in

25 danger, maybe we should go into closed session.

Page 1686

1 JUDGE BONOMY: It seems to me we're off on a tangent we don't need

2 to follow. So let's go on to something -- back to the matter you had

3 reached, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine with me, Your Honour.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE BONOMY: No, you may not, Mr. Peraj, because it's a matter

7 that I think is inappropriate for you to be dealing with. Just please

8 listen to the questions and deal with them as they're asked.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I do -- I'm now conflicted, Your Honour, because I

10 do want to ask another question about this but I really don't want to get

11 into a position where anybody's life is being put in any kind of danger,

12 and I'm wondering if closed session might be safe for just a moment.

13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14 JUDGE BONOMY: What we'll do, Mr. Ackerman, is we will have the

15 answer at line 12 to 15 redacted, and then we'll go into private session

16 for the reason you give.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1687











11 Page 1687 redacted. Private session.















Page 1688

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]


7 Q. I want to go back to a question --

8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry.

10 Q. I want to go back to a question I asked you before we went into

11 closed session, and that was with regard to Micunovic, Kotur, and

12 Kovacevic who you have said were responsible for what you've called the

13 massacre. And it's true, isn't it, that you have taken the position that

14 they could have prevented the killings from happening had they wanted to?

15 A. Yes. This is what I have said.

16 Q. They were under no orders from above to carry out any kind of a

17 massacre, were they?

18 A. I cannot believe that someone from above might have ordered such a

19 thing, such a massacre, but this offensive, I think, was misused by

20 others, by certain people.

21 Q. And it's true, isn't it, as you've said that no members of the

22 army had participated in the killings or had been seen in the vicinity of

23 where the bodies were found? That's your testimony, isn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much. Your Honour, I have no

Page 1689

1 further questions.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

3 Mr. Visnjic?

4 MR. VISNJIC: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honours, I apologise for

5 this short delay.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Peraj. I'm Tomislav Visnjic,

8 Defence counsel for General Ojdanic, and I have a few questions for you.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Mr. Peraj, we see it from your statement, actually is it correct

11 that you spent part of your career as commander in the Pristina Corps, as

12 a commanding officer in the Pristina Corps?

13 A. I was not a commanding officer. I didn't command anything. I was

14 an officer who worked in the Pristina Corps command performing certain

15 duties. The fact is I was -- I worked at Kasana [phoen] command. At the

16 barracks command, not at the main command in Pristina.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Can Mr. Visnjic please

18 repeat his question.

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Your family lived in the village of Dolosaj at that time. Am I

21 right?

22 A. That's correct.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Can you tell us how often you went to visit your family from

Page 1690

1 Pristina going to this village?

2 A. It depends what time frame you have in mind. Over a certain --

3 over certain years or months or weeks? What do you mean?

4 Q. Yes. I mean, say, monthly.

5 A. Sometimes twice a month. Once or twice.

6 Q. Tell me, as an officer of the army of Yugoslavia, how were you

7 looked upon by the villagers from your village? What is your impression?

8 A. To tell you the truth, before the war I was viewed very

9 favourably, but with the outbreak of the war not with that kind eye. Not

10 to say I was not looked at all kindly.

11 Q. I actually meant the pre-war period, so thank you for your answer.

12 Mr. Peraj, in your -- in your statement 89(F), in paragraph -- you

13 say --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Visnjic please slow down, notes the

15 interpreter.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I'm referring to the end of 1998.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the paragraph

19 reference.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, the interpreters are asking if you

21 could slow down a bit, and they're also looking for the reference to the

22 paragraph in the statement.

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Peraj, in your 89(F) statement, paragraph 5, you say the

25 situation got worse when you arrived in Djakovica. That is the end of

Page 1691

1 1998. That's the time period concerned. Am I right?

2 A. Yes, that's right. When I went to Gjakova, the situation not only

3 in Gjakova but all over Kosovo was being deteriorated on a daily basis.

4 Q. Tell me, what units were deployed there, the units of the army of

5 Yugoslavia, in the territory of Djakovica towards the end of 1998? To the

6 best of your knowledge.

7 A. I was not the commander of the barracks to have information about

8 all the units. I know only about my brigade. I know also of a brigade

9 that was sent there from the Serb republic. I know about part of Prizren

10 Brigade that was deployed in the vicinity of Gjakova. As for the others,

11 I have no information. I don't know anything by concrete names, if you

12 ask me.

13 Q. Mr. Peraj, if you look at my question, you will see that it

14 pertains to the end of 1998. Are you telling me now that this brigade

15 from Republika Srpska was there towards the end of 1998 in Djakovica?

16 A. No, no. In 1999.

17 Q. So in addition to your unit, that is to say the 52nd Brigade and

18 parts of the Prizren Brigade, you actually don't know what other units

19 were in the territory of the municipality of Djakovica. Am I correct in

20 inferring that?

21 A. At the beginning of 1999, a brigade from the Srpska Republika

22 came. As to the other units you mentioned, they were already there.

23 Q. You told us about that, Mr. Peraj. I'm asking you about the end

24 of 1998.

25 A. I didn't see it at the end of 1998 that brigade from Srpska --

Page 1692

1 Republika Srpska. A part of Prizren Brigade and my own brigade were

2 there.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. This is what I know. Maybe there have been other brigades, but I

5 have no information about that.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, are you challenging paragraph 5?

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm challenging it,

8 because if you look at his statement you will see that in the second

9 sentence he says VJ forces arrived from Serbia. So my question had to do

10 with that particular section. The witness does not know whether there

11 were any other units involved. And now, by your leave, I shall move on.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Further on you say that in strategic locations in the area of

15 Djakovica there were modern anti-aircraft rockets and artillery; is that

16 right?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And we will agree that this was part of preparation from NATO

19 aviation, NATO air force; is that right?

20 A. Yes, certainly.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there is a transcript problem.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see the United Nations here,

23 yes.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: [Previous translation continues] ... "aviation,"

25 not "save United Nations."

Page 1693

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I note that and thank you for drawing our attention

2 to that. It's the sort of element in the transcript that will no doubt --

3 would no doubt be corrected in any event on review, but it's noted that

4 that should be changed now.

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the sake of the

6 future, I promise not to mention the United Nations until the end of my

7 questions.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: You will notice that we now have a new word created

9 which is perhaps been kind to NATO in the circumstances.

10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Peraj, I'm going to go back to your statement. 89(F),

12 paragraph 20, and you mention that in your statement dated the 18th of

13 April, 2000, page 2, paragraph 7. You said, inter alia, that between

14 February and March 1999 the army of Yugoslavia was joined by many

15 volunteers, most of them from Russia. Is that correct?

16 A. This is not correct, in the sense that they came from Russia.

17 They were Russians. In the evening a bus of Nis Expres with a bus about

18 50 persons came, nine of whom were Russians. One -- one of the nine was a

19 doctor. And I know pretty well that those persons were sent to Kosare

20 region. They were volunteers.

21 Q. And this doctor at Kosare, was he wounded? Did he try to give

22 himself first aid? Am I right?

23 A. I saw this person in the military hospital in Tis [phoen] of

24 Gjakova where later on he served -- he worked as a doctor, but they told

25 me, even though I know I mustn't use rumours here, but I was told that he

Page 1694

1 gave himself first aid, and this proved that he was a good doctor.

2 Q. I agree with you, Mr. Peraj, but I have a piece of information

3 stemming from the statement that you gave on the 9th of July, 1999, and

4 that was videotaped. However, before that I would like to ask you the

5 following: How many Russians did you see yourself?

6 A. Nine. I think in my statement maybe there is an print error,

7 because I think it says 50 Russians or something like that. If you allow

8 me, I'll find it. But we of course may continue.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: [Microphone not activated].

10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.


12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Peraj, you made a statement on the 9th of July, 1999, that was

14 videotaped. The 9th of July. Is that one of the statements that you gave

15 to the KLA? Do you recall?

16 A. No, I don't recall that. Your Honour, on the 9th of July which

17 year? Please tell me the year?

18 Q. The 9th of July, 1999.

19 A. Now I'm clear. Yes. I gave a statement, a very brief statement.

20 Q. Do you recall whether that statement was videotaped or, rather,

21 filmed by a video camera?

22 A. Yes. There was a camera on the table.

23 Q. Mr. Peraj, I am going to tell you that in that statement you said

24 that it so happened that you saw one or two Russians. However, when one

25 or two of them came it was obvious that there would have to be more of

Page 1695

1 them. Are you challenging that now?

2 A. This is absolutely true. They were nine. They were a group, in a

3 group.

4 Q. How many Russians did you actually see?

5 A. The nine of them. That night, I wrote down the names of persons

6 that came by Nis Expres bus. I was at the hall of the palace of culture

7 when they came, and we accommodated them near the place where the guard --

8 our guard was sleeping in that place for them to sleep that night until

9 they were distributed.

10 Q. So I may consider that what you stated on the 9th of July, 1999,

11 and what was videotaped is in actual fact a mistake. I'm going to quote

12 it once again. "It so happened that I saw one or two of them, but then

13 when one or two of them arrived it was obvious that they were -- there

14 would have to be more of them."

15 A. I'm not contesting that. Maybe I have declared what you are

16 saying, but I know that I saw with my own eyes nine Russians and I

17 understood the language. They were talking Russian among themselves.

18 Some showed us their driving licenses, some their IDs.

19 Q. So what was stated on the 9th of July, 1991 was a mistake. Can I

20 view it that way?

21 A. A mistake, yes.

22 Q. Mr. Peraj, in your statement, your 89(F) statement, paragraph 4,

23 and also in the Milosevic transcript, 4689 is the transcript page, you

24 explained the duties that you had in the 52nd Artillery Rocket Brigade.

25 In the Milosevic transcript, you said that all records were accessible to

Page 1696

1 you except for some confidential documents, number of vehicles, number of

2 personnel. All this information was contained therein. Is that correct?

3 MR. STAMP: [Microphone not activated] ... counsel could refer to

4 the transcript page number.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, that's right.

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] It was 4689.

7 MR. STAMP: I'm sorry I missed it. I beg your pardon.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Peraj, were all these documents accessible to you as far as

11 your own unit was concerned?

12 A. I had access to all these documents because at that time I was

13 second assistant for issues related to operation and drilling exercises,

14 and there we kept monthly records beginning from the number of soldiers,

15 the armaments we used, the vehicles, the tanks, all these things. The

16 information was even processed on a monthly basis. We kept track of what

17 was used, what was being repaired, and all these things. Or how many

18 rifles were destroyed, were broken, because we had to ask for their

19 replacement.

20 Q. Is this information confidential, Mr. Peraj? Or, rather, is this

21 information strictly confidential?

22 A. Yes. There is a degree of confidentiality for every document. Of

23 course.

24 Q. Very well. At your workplace, did you have insight into plans on

25 the use of units and mobilisation plans?

Page 1697

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you take part in the elaboration of such plans?

3 A. In those that were linked, if you allow me I'll use the word that

4 we described them, military staff exercises. But in fact they are

5 drilling exercises. Those exercises were imitating a war situation.

6 Q. Mr. Peraj, do you know in the units that you were in who was it

7 that headed the elaboration process of such plans?

8 A. In my brigade both in Pristina and in Gjakova it was the commander

9 who did that, or the Chief of Staff. In rare occasions, it might be done

10 also by the chief of the operational exercise department. When it was not

11 related to some important matter.

12 Q. Mr. Peraj, you were an officer who had not completed the military

13 academy. Am I right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You yourself said that you were never involved in planning or in

16 commanding units. Am I right?

17 While the witness is giving an answer, I would kindly ask that we

18 see 3D46 and could 3D47 be prepared to be shown on e-court.

19 Please go ahead and I apologise.

20 A. I would kindly ask you to repeat the question.

21 Q. You yourself said that you were never involved in planning or in

22 commanding units. Am I not right?

23 A. It is true that I have participated in those exercises, but it was

24 not I who made the decision on them, but according to the duties I had, I

25 forwarded my opinions on given matters. Each of us had to express his

Page 1698

1 view depending on the duty we had to perform. Then at the end, of course

2 it was the main person who approved or not what we expressed depending on

3 various departments or sectors. Even when I work as a communication

4 assistant, military communication assistant, for a long time I replaced

5 the chief of that sector. This is why I participated in that -- those

6 exercises often, as I said.

7 Q. Mr. Peraj, in the 52nd Brigade were you assistant for

8 communications or does this have to do with your previous career?

9 A. I mean for Gjakova. When I worked in the Gjakova Brigade, I was a

10 second assistant in the operational teaching staff, drilling staff in

11 Gjakova, but before I was also in the same position in Pristina Brigade.

12 Q. Mr. Peraj, please have a look at 3D46.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a document of

14 the command of the 52nd Rocket Brigade of the PVO, 132 is the confidential

15 number. Or, rather, 1329-1, and the date is the 6th of April, 1999.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we have an English translation on the screen,

17 please?

18 MR. VISNJIC: Yes, we have.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Peraj, this is the order on the barracks guard shifts in the

22 Metohija barracks. Am I correct in asserting that? First and foremost,

23 do you have that document in front of you?

24 A. I don't need to look at it. I know that part of the competencies

25 of the second assistant is also the training of the soldiers for the

Page 1699

1 physical safety of the barracks. But recently, especially during 1999, I

2 was given the task, exclusive task, of training and leading the exercises

3 for the training of physical safety or security of the barracks where the

4 soldiers were deployed and the staff was.

5 Q. Could we please show 3D47 to the witness. This is also a document

6 by the 52nd Artillery Anti-Aircraft Defence Brigade, strictly

7 confidential, 1368-2, dated the 24th of May, 1999.

8 Mr. Peraj, this is another document concerning the physical

9 security of the Metohija barracks. In item 3, it is mentioned that you

10 are the person responsible for implementing this order as well as Captain

11 Peraj Nike.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, Captain Nike Peraj.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Am I correct? Do you see this document, Mr. Peraj?

15 A. I'm repeating it. I was ordered by my command to deal exclusively

16 with the guards, with the work of the guard, where it is possible for the

17 physical security of the barracks and the place where the command was

18 located. I don't see here anything wrong.

19 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Peraj. I believe what we still have on the screen

20 is the previous document. Could we please have 3D47 put on the screen.

21 That is it. Thank you.

22 Mr. Peraj, this is my question: These two documents, 3D46 and

23 3D47 --

24 A. Yes, this is in order.

25 Q. Do these documents outline your basic duties in that period? Am I

Page 1700

1 correct?

2 A. Well, you're right, because other orders are not given at the same

3 time.

4 Q. Those duties pertain to guards shifts in the barracks as well as

5 the -- securing the immediate perimeter of the Metohija barracks.

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Peraj, I'm about to move onto a different topic

8 that concerns your 89(F) statement, paragraph 20. Could we also have 3D43

9 prepared in the meantime.

10 Mr. Peraj, in that paragraph you mainly talk about volunteers. I

11 wanted to ask you the following: Do you know how many volunteers came to

12 your unit, the 52nd Rocket Artillery Brigade?

13 A. I don't know, except when I registered the arrivals of the nine

14 Russians who had come from Nis and Kraljevac. For the others, I don't

15 know. I can't tell you. I don't want to say anything wrong. Or I -- I

16 don't want to make an estimation here.

17 Q. Did those volunteers come individually, of their own free will, or

18 was this something that was organised since you said you awaited them?

19 A. There were organised cases, but there were also cases where people

20 just arrived. They weren't really volunteers in that sense. As far as I

21 know, most of them were organised cases.

22 Q. These other cases for which you said that individuals simply came,

23 they must not have been received by a unit. Am I correct in asserting

24 that?

25 A. No, they weren't. There were cases where people said in town that

Page 1701

1 they'd come when they didn't belong to any unit. I heard about a

2 paramilitary who said he was called Lesinar -- was from Lesinar, Lesinar

3 in the sense that he was a thief.

4 Q. Very well. But then he was not a volunteer.

5 A. I didn't say he was a volunteer. He didn't come for the war. He

6 came for personal gain.

7 Q. Very well. I agree. In paragraph 20, you state: "When they

8 saw," and you have in mind Arkan's Tigers and the White Eagles, "When they

9 realised the level of discipline in the VJ, they abandoned those units and

10 joined some others." Is that correct?

11 A. I said earlier that the reservists who -- were from different

12 parties were said to be part of our brigade because they were reservists

13 without a particular party. They were from various -- of various origins,

14 but they knew that in the army there was -- when they found out that there

15 was discipline and order in the army, they discovered that they couldn't

16 go out into town whenever they wanted, and so they -- so they went and

17 joined other groups which were in town at Hotel Pastrik and in the

18 building near the secondary school.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Visnjic, that is an example, I think, of

20 an unfortunate reference to an answer we've already got recorded in the

21 statement and which has already been dealt with by earlier examination.

22 This is a suitable time for us to break. We will break for half

23 an hour and resume at 6.00 and hope that the cross-examination at that

24 stage can regain its focus.

25 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.

Page 1702

1 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Peraj, could you please have a look at 3D43. This is an order

5 by the command of the 52nd Artillery Rocket Brigade dated the 11th of May,

6 1999, number 1721-2. Mr. Peraj, is this a typical order, one of many

7 issued by your commander in order to prevent any attempt of any criminal

8 activities among his soldiers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Could the witness be shown 3D38 now, please.

11 Mr. Peraj, in Mr. Ackerman's question, you said something about

12 rapes concerning your statement according to Rule 89(F), paragraph 15.

13 I'll show you this document which is 3D38. This is a notice by the

14 command of the 52nd Rocket Artillery Brigade, number 1694-2, dated the

15 3rd of May, 1999. This document pertains to an attempt of rape in the

16 village of Osek. Have you ever seen such a document previously,

17 Mr. Peraj?

18 A. I haven't seen this document, but -- but I know about the case.

19 Q. Mr. Peraj, did you know that the command of your brigade

20 concerning this case undertook the following measures: Three soldiers

21 were taken into custody by the police. Criminal proceedings was

22 instigated for an attempted rape against one soldier. The remaining two

23 were disciplined. The platoon commander was disciplined as well, and the

24 entire unit was redeployed. It was taken out of the village itself. Were

25 you familiar with any of these facts?

Page 1703

1 A. There weren't any measures taken. I'm not aware of any measures

2 which were taken, but there was a -- I was informed by Zdravko Vinter and

3 another officer, we were -- the three of us were informed about the

4 incident, and we went to the village and excused -- and gave our excuses

5 or -- and the family in question accepted our excuses, our condolences

6 and -- or our apologies for the crime committed, although from a moral

7 point of view it was a terrible thing.

8 Q. Mr. Peraj, therefore you didn't know that criminal proceedings was

9 instituted against the aforementioned soldier and that the other two were

10 disciplined or, rather, they were put in gaol for 15 days.

11 A. I know that measures were taken, but I don't know which measures.

12 But I do know that they were held responsible for their acts.

13 Q. Mr. Peraj, having in mind your title, your duties, would this in

14 turn mean that you did not receive all the important information and

15 documents pertaining to your unit? Am I correct in assuming that?

16 JUDGE BONOMY: How is he able to answer that question?

17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] If you look at his answer page 61,

18 line 7, he says he did not see this document but that he knew of that

19 particular case. At the end of this document -- at the end of the

20 document there is a list of people who should have received the document.

21 I just wanted Mr. Peraj to confirm for me that he occasionally would not

22 be given such type of documents.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not receive the document

24 because I was in a special division. I was to receive information -- I

25 was only to receive certain information and to transmit this information

Page 1704

1 on to the guards.

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Peraj.

4 A. Just one small explanation. Normally the -- normally it was

5 Zdravko who informed the command officers.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Peraj. We are going to move to another topic which

7 is paragraph 29 of your -- 21 of your 89(F) statement. There you state

8 that among the VJ reservists there were Kosovar Albanians as well as the

9 Roma. Did you know how many Kosovar Albanians were there among the

10 reservists of your unit, since obviously you cannot talk about other

11 units?

12 A. In my unit of the brigade there weren't any -- there were not any.

13 There were some in the unit of Nikola Micunovic, reservists who were

14 Albanians who were mobilised, who volunteered to be mobilised. And Roma

15 too. The unit of Nikola Sainovic [as interpreted], not in the unit of

16 Milan Djosan.

17 Q. I see there was an error in the transcript. It says the unit of

18 Nikola Sainovic, whereas you probably had Nikola Micunovic in mind. Am I

19 correct in assuming that?

20 A. No, no. Not Sainovic. That must be a mistake. Nikola Micunovic.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: It certainly threatened to make things more

22 exciting.

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Peraj, do you know whether there were any Albanians who

25 received draft calls but failed to report to their unit? Do you know of

Page 1705

1 any such cases?

2 Before the witness replies, could we also have 3D52 prepared.

3 Before the question was: Do you know whether there were any

4 Albanians who received draft calls but failed to report to their units?

5 A. None of them would have responded voluntarily. If the others did,

6 then they were forced to. It was only a use of force. People who were

7 taken by the police and sent off to recruitment centres.

8 Q. No, Mr. Peraj. I asked you whether you know of any such cases in

9 which they failed to report.

10 A. I don't remember any concrete example, but I know that masses of

11 people did not go. They refused to go to the army.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Peraj.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am about to move on

14 to another topic, which is paragraphs 23 and 24 of the 80 -- 89(F)

15 statement dated the 12th of February, 2001, on page 2, and pages 4705 and

16 4706 of the Milosevic case transcript.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you do that, were you going to use this

18 exhibit 3D52?

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I just noticed that. Yes, thank

20 you.

21 Q. Mr. Peraj, is it correct that the composition of your unit's

22 command was of various ethnicities? And I believe you are still looking

23 at 3D52. When you look at that list, can you answer with a simple yes or

24 no, the composition, the ethnic make-up of your unit's command, did it

25 comprise several ethnicities?

Page 1706

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, to go back to my following topic, it is

3 the 89(F) statement, paragraphs 23 and 24, as well as part of the

4 Milosevic case transcript, pages 4705 and 06.

5 Mr. Peraj, you described the arrival of an RS unit, and you were

6 examined -- cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic himself on the 9th of May,

7 2002 on this topic. As far as I understood, what you stated there was

8 that there was an RS unit there, but you were uncertain whether they came

9 there with their own equipment or whether they were given equipment by the

10 army of Yugoslavia, and you were certain that they came in spite of

11 Mr. Milosevic asserting that the RS was at that time controlled by SFOR,

12 militarily speaking, and that it was quite difficult, if not impossible,

13 for that unit to move from Bosnia to the territory of Kosovo.

14 Have I described your testimony correctly?

15 A. I am certain that that unit came and was deployed in Rezina

16 Lug Bunar up until -- almost to the village of Marmulj.

17 Q. Very well.

18 A. As to their equipment, arms, they had tanks, T55 which I saw, and

19 some anti-aircraft equipment. I can't tell you what they brought with

20 them or what they got from the army, but they did have arms. The unit was

21 there. I had contact with their commander. He came to my office and --

22 Q. All right.

23 A. -- too.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Peraj, tell me the following: You say that this unit

25 arrived approximately in the end of February or beginning of March. Is

Page 1707

1 that right? 1999. This is in paragraph 23 of your statement, right?

2 A. It might have arrived earlier and gone to a different location in

3 Kosova, but when I -- the place I mentioned, that was the time I saw them.

4 We even sent them their mail, military mail, with a jeep.

5 Q. Mr. Peraj, could you just give brief answers to my questions.

6 Please focus. I'll put a very brief question to you now.

7 As for this time that you claim this unit arrived and a lot before

8 that, wasn't the Kosovo Verification Mission there and also another

9 observer mission called KDOM? Are you aware of that?

10 A. As far as I remember --

11 Q. No.

12 A. Listen, you take a long question. At least listen to my answer,

13 please. This is the answer: The OSCE mission was withdrawing at the

14 time, or maybe it wasn't there at all at that time. It was stationed in

15 Macedonia.

16 Q. Mr. Peraj, the mission withdrew on the 20th of March at the

17 earliest. This date does not correspond to any one of the dates that you

18 referred to. May I remind you of the following: You stated that they

19 arrived end of February, beginning of March, and today, on page 65,

20 line 17 and 18, you said that perhaps they arrived even earlier and went

21 to different locations in Kosovo.

22 What I'm asking you now is the following: What is true out of all

23 of this? Was the mission there at the time when you established that this

24 brigade of Republika Srpska was at this location?

25 A. As far as I know, the OSCE mission in Gjakova was not there at the

Page 1708

1 time when I -- maybe they were there in March. I didn't make notes.

2 Q. All right. All right. Let's deal with it differently. I'll try.

3 Can you tell me, in paragraph 28 of the statement you said that your unit

4 provided logistic support to this brigade of Republika Srpska; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes. We supplied them with food, with clothing, expendables. We

7 were obliged to give them under written orders.

8 Q. All right. If you gave them logistic support, then you have to

9 know how many tanks they had and whether they had any artillery pieces

10 and, if so, which ones.

11 MR. STAMP: I -- that is not a question. Counsel should just ask

12 questions.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: It seems to me to be a question, and it's one I'm

14 sure the witness can deal with either by saying what his knowledge was or

15 lack of it.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't know the number of tanks

17 they had. I didn't visit them at their position. But I did see two or

18 three tanks at least, and anti-aircraft equipment too. It's not my direct

19 profession, but I know what anti-aircraft equipment looks like, and I know

20 what tanks look like.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Tell me, did you yourself go to Rezina where this unit was

23 deployed?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was it deployed in various facilities, and if so, which

Page 1709

1 facilities?

2 A. In private houses. They also had tents but not very big ones.

3 Q. Did you know the actual personnel numbers of that unit?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You were in charge of food supplies, clothing supplies, and other

6 supplies. So on the basis of what calculations did you send these

7 supplies in, Mr. Peraj?

8 A. I wasn't responsible for supplies, and I don't know the number of

9 supplies. I was ordered to send the things that were loaded onto the

10 trucks to the place they were supposed to go to, and that's what I did.

11 We sent that to the village of Vranica, Doblibar, and we used a few houses

12 there.

13 Q. Mr. Peraj, to conclude, when you went to Rezina was that during

14 the course of the war or before the war?

15 A. It was during the war, sir.

16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Peraj, in your statement - I'll deal with this

17 very briefly - paragraph 22, the 89(F) statement. You say that in the

18 area of Djakovica, from at least 1998 there were over 170 tanks. Could

19 you tell us whether you yourself saw these tanks perhaps?

20 A. I will respond to this briefly. That the day when the withdrawal

21 of the units from the Gjakova area occurred I was on the balcony of my

22 house, on the fourth floor, and from there to the village of Lug Bunar

23 there was a convoy of tanks. There were other vehicles as well, but

24 mainly tanks. A convoy of four or five kilometres. It was in the

25 direction Prizren-Pristina. So I think I'm not mistaken when I say that

Page 1710

1 there -- that only that convoy contained at least a hundred tanks. There

2 were other vehicles, armoured vehicles, there as well.

3 Q. Mr. Peraj, I'm asking you whether towards the end of 1998, in the

4 area of Djakovica, there were 170 tanks. That was my question.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: No. I think the question was whether he saw 170

6 tanks, and he's just answered that by saying that he saw a convoy four or

7 five kilometres long between Prizren and Pristina.

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm sorry.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I meant Gjakova in the

10 direction of Pristina.

11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. But what you saw was between the 10th and 12th of June, 1999. So

13 I am asking you whether it was the end of 1998 you saw 170 tanks in

14 Djakovica and the vicinity of Djakovica.

15 A. No. I didn't see 170 tanks at the end of the year. I never saw

16 170 tanks with my own eyes, altogether I mean.

17 Q. Mr. Peraj. Mr. Peraj, as an officer of the army of Yugoslavia,

18 you should know how many tanks a motorised brigade has. If you cannot

19 remember, perhaps I can help you.

20 A. No, I can't remember.

21 Q. Does the number 30 sound right for the number of tanks within a

22 motorised brigade according to establishment?

23 A. I think that's a small number.

24 Q. All right, Mr. Peraj. May I just remind you that in response to

25 one of my questions today you said that in Djakovica in addition to the

Page 1711

1 52nd Light Artillery Rocket Brigade of the PVO there were only parts of

2 the 549th Brigade that were stationed there towards the end of 1998. Am I

3 right?

4 A. Even before 1998 in Gjakova there was a tank unit from Prizren

5 that as far as I know stayed there for the whole time in the vicinity of

6 the Gjakova area.

7 Q. Mr. Peraj, let's try to make things shorter. You actually don't

8 know the number of tanks at the end of 1998, and this figure is actually

9 an estimate of your own on the basis of your own free thinking. Am I

10 right?

11 A. On the basis of what I saw in that convoy, and the figure I gave

12 is a very close estimate. There might have been other vehicles like that,

13 other tanks, but I saw what I saw, and I told you about it.

14 Q. And you saw that in June 1999. Am I right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. In your 89(F) statement, paragraph 18, you said that

17 the Ministry of Defence carries out mobilisation for the army of

18 Yugoslavia and it does it through military districts and military

19 departments. And further on, in paragraph 19, you say that military

20 districts decide how many people should be conscripted within each and

21 every military district. Is it correct that it is the military districts

22 that decide on the number of conscripts from each and every district?

23 A. First of all, I have to tell you that the planning about how many

24 soldiers should be mobilised and the -- about this, the communes had the

25 communal staff, the municipality staff, and they were commanded by the

Page 1712

1 Pristina barracks. So they decided at the higher level how many people

2 had to be mobilised, and they sent the order to the municipalities, and

3 then the Municipal Staff had to mobilise the number of people they were

4 given in the order.

5 Q. Thank you. That is your explanation, and I'm satisfied with that.

6 I'm now asking you about paragraph 36 of your 89(F) statement

7 where you said that the Territorial Defence included people from the ages

8 of 15 to 65. Is this age span right, 15 to 65, Mr. Peraj?

9 A. I don't know about this 15. I don't think it's correct, no. It

10 has to be at least 18 to 65 years old.

11 Q. And you're sure of 65? And if I offer you the age of 60 as the

12 other option rather than 65, would you agree with me on that?

13 A. I might have been lowered later, but for the period I know it

14 was 65. I am not contesting this. It might be 60 as well. From what I

15 knew at the time, it was 65. The age was 65.

16 Q. Mr. Peraj, just by way of a comment, I would just like to remind

17 you of Article 22 of the law on defence that speaks of -- or, rather, that

18 speaks of the obligation of citizens from the age of 15 until 65. I'm not

19 going to go into this any further because we will deal with this through

20 experts' testimony.

21 Now I would like to move on to another topic that you dealt with

22 with Mr. Ackerman. I'm talking about paragraph 85 in your 89(F)

23 statement. It has to do with Major Zivkovic in Meja with you. So my

24 question is whether Major Zivkovic is an expert for chemical weapons. Is

25 that correct?

Page 1713

1 A. He was an expert. He was an officer, an expert on chemical

2 weapons, for the defence against chemical weapons. I know that he went to

3 school for that.

4 Q. But Major Perovic was not an expert in chemical weapons. Am I not

5 right?

6 A. I have no information whether he was or not.

7 Q. But he was an intelligence officer. Do we agree on that?

8 A. Security, yes.

9 Q. Yes. Mr. Peraj, when you look at paragraph 65 now -- or, rather,

10 I beg your pardon. If you look at paragraph 85 of your statement. Do you

11 still claim that gas was used in Meja?

12 A. Yes, I still abide by my claim for these reasons: Number one, the

13 person I mentioned that I changed the name and I explained the reasons why

14 I changed the name, he said that he could smell an unusual smell which was

15 a chemical smell.

16 The second reason is that I saw with my own eyes a small canister.

17 It was just like the one that people use -- people who suffer from asthma

18 use. It was that size.

19 The other reason I suspect that those were used is that when my

20 brother's son, Merkur Peraj, when he was stopped there, somebody from the

21 paramilitary forces went close to him to spray him with such a thing, and

22 a policeman who recognised my nephew and me and knew me told to that

23 paramilitary that he must not spray my nephew, and they let him go.

24 That's why I claimed what I claimed.

25 But I have also another reason. The bodies that I saw, I thought

Page 1714

1 it was impossible for them to be in order, one after the other, and not to

2 be able to move during the execution. That's why I suspected that some

3 kind of poison was used, some kind of poison that had -- could act very

4 quickly on people.

5 Also, one of the members of those forces that I mentioned had a

6 gas mask on. Why should he have that on? Soldiers must have that, you

7 know, carry the gas mask on them, but use it, why?

8 Q. And on the basis of all of that you concluded what you concluded

9 on the basis of your statement, right? Am I right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Peraj, let us move on to paragraph 100 of your 89(F)

12 statement. I shall ask you whether you know when General Ojdanic was

13 appointed chief of General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia.

14 A. I don't remember the date. And why should I, as a matter of fact?

15 Q. Can you tell, at least approximately, what time period it was?

16 A. First of all, could you please refer me to which statement, which

17 statement you mean?

18 JUDGE BONOMY: We've been over this more than once, Mr. Visnjic.

19 I mean, there must be a limit to how often you can re-explore the same

20 issues.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think that

22 we've raised the issue so far. This is paragraph 100 from the 89(F)

23 statement. I'm sure that it wasn't dealt with today or not even yesterday

24 for that matter.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: But the question -- your question is whether you

Page 1715

1 know when General Ojdanic was appointed chief of General Staff of the army

2 of Yugoslavia. No, you're quite right. Sorry, it's my mistake. On you

3 go.

4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So, Mr. Peraj, can you say, at least approximately, what time

6 period this was when that took place?

7 A. If I'm not mistaken, it was in 1997. By the middle of the year.

8 But I'm not sure about the date, no. However, I know that General Ojdanic

9 took over from General Perisic. And I know about a meeting that General

10 Perisic held at the time.

11 Q. Maybe it's a mistake in the interpretation, but are you referring

12 to this gathering of General Perisic's? Does this have to do with General

13 Ojdanic taking this particular office, or is this something that was

14 organised by General Perisic irrespective of the fact that General Ojdanic

15 was assuming this high office? Can you explain this?

16 A. No. No, it's not the meeting in question. General Perisic came

17 to Pristina. There's a rule, a political informational meeting. It was

18 something, a briefing about the situation where he wanted to inform the

19 command of the corps and the officers. This has nothing to do with

20 Ojdanic taking over.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Peraj. Am I correct in saying that as a matter of

22 fact you don't know whether the army of Yugoslavia began participating in

23 security operations in the country from the moment Ojdanic took over the

24 duty?

25 A. No, no. That started even before.

Page 1716

1 Q. Mr. Peraj, in your statement, in paragraph -- or, rather, in two

2 paragraphs there is an assertion that as of the moment when Ojdanic took

3 over this office the army of Yugoslavia began participating in security

4 operations inside the country. This is in paragraph 100. It is the last

5 sentence of that statement.

6 A. The fact is that even during the time when Perisic had the duty,

7 the army participated, but with the passing of time --

8 Q. I didn't ask you that. I asked you about the statement.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on. There is an objection taken here.

10 Mr. Stamp.

11 MR. STAMP: The objection is that counsel is cutting into the

12 witness's answer to the question. He's not permitting the witness to

13 finish his answer.

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I am interrupting him because he

15 wasn't answering my question. I asked him why that was in his statement.

16 I didn't want him to explain yet again why that was in the statement in

17 two places.

18 Q. My question was: How did it come about that that sentence appears

19 twice in your 89(F) statement? Or, to put it in other words, did anyone

20 suggest to you, did anyone prompt you to say what we can find in

21 paragraph 100 of your statement?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Where else does it appear, Mr. Visnjic? Is it

23 twice in the one paragraph?

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Exactly, Your Honour. I can repeat

25 the question. This appears in the last sentence of paragraph 100, and in

Page 1717

1 Serbian it is the fifth sentence as well of the same paragraph.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it also in English twice? I can't see it.

3 MR. VISNJIC: No. So there is probably mistake in translation.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Well, the English is the official version for

5 our purposes, I think, unless a mistake can be demonstrated by you.

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Precisely so. I apologise, and I

7 withdraw my question. But I will yet again ask the witness.

8 Q. Mr. Peraj, what about this sentence which says that the VJ became

9 involved in internal security operations as of the moment General Ojdanic

10 took over the duties? How did it come about that this sentence became

11 part of paragraph 100 of your 89(F) statement?

12 A. What I meant was that even before Perisic gave up the post the

13 army was taking part in certain operations, but with time the situation on

14 the field changed, and with the arrival of General Ojdanic as head of the

15 Chief of Staff the army began to take part in military operations with

16 tanks. They were shooting. They were shelling villages and other sites.

17 That's what I meant. But who ordered it and why, I don't know.

18 Q. Mr. Peraj, but you don't even know when General Ojdanic came in

19 and when General Perisic left. Am I correct?

20 A. I wasn't his -- in his personnel staff to write everything down.

21 I told you what I knew.

22 Q. How do you know, then, that as of the moment General Ojdanic came

23 in the VJ became involved in internal security operations? How do you

24 know that?

25 A. I'm not accusing anyone here, but what I said earlier was

Page 1718

1 beforehand they had not been destroying whole villages. In 1998, the

2 village of Gllareve was razed to the ground, and there were other

3 villages, too, who were -- which were --

4 Q. I apologise, Mr. Peraj. Before what?

5 A. Before, 1998. I don't know what else you want to know about this.

6 Q. I just wanted to know how it came about that this sentence became

7 part of your statement. If you can offer any assistance as regards that

8 please do. If not, I'll just move on.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's been answered as best it can be,

10 Mr. Visnjic. Move on to something else.

11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Mr. Peraj, sir, you had an interview with the OTP on the 11th of

13 July, 2005 via telephone. Am I correct? That was probably after General

14 Delic's testimony before this Tribunal.

15 Mr. Peraj, when you came to The Hague to be proofed for this

16 testimony, were you shown the transcript of that interview, or the

17 statement?

18 I apologise. The witness's answer wasn't recorded. The witness

19 said, "Yes."

20 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. That's noted.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. My question is: Were you shown the minutes of the telephone

23 conversation you had with someone from the OTP, the transcript itself? Am

24 I correct? Were you shown the transcript?

25 A. As far as I know, it was -- the material was all included in the

Page 1719

1 last statement.

2 I would ask you to give me a question and I will answer your

3 question.

4 Q. Did you have any objection regarding the transcript you were shown

5 and the material pertaining to the statement?

6 A. No, I didn't have any special objections.

7 Q. Very well, Mr. Peraj. To move on to the statement itself, then.

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is not in e-court.

9 We have -- we have the hard copies here, and we prepared copies for the

10 Chamber and the witness himself. Unfortunately, I have only the English

11 and the Serbian version. Perhaps the OTP may have the Albanian version.

12 Nevertheless, I have a few questions regarding that statement.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's no problem for me to read

14 the Serbian version.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that interpreters need to be

16 provided with documents as well. Thank you.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, have you a number of questions on

18 this?

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not many, but I believe

20 I will need half an hour or 45 minutes at the most.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I mean on this --

22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That would then end my

23 cross-examination. Most of the questions will arise from the statement.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on a second. I've been given a Serbian

25 statement, which is not really of much value to me. Why are we being

Page 1720

1 given Serbian copies?

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour. It seems

3 we copied the wrong version.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Ah. Right. Well --

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] And it is also time.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: We will give you time to sort that out for tomorrow

7 morning.

8 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, by way of maybe an appropriate segue

9 since we are discussing translations, may I just indicate that I have seen

10 on some notifications given to us pursuant to your order, or to the Trial

11 Chamber's order of July that Defence, some Defence teams have indicated

12 that they want to show the witness documents. Many of the documents put

13 in e-court are in the Serbian language without English translations. I

14 think that the Defence is having problems. I would just like to indicate

15 that we will object.

16 However, the Defence probably should raise these problems with the

17 Court if they believe the Court can assist them in getting translations.

18 But I think the rules are clear that the languages of the Tribunal are

19 French and English, and exhibits proffered should be in one of those

20 languages.

21 I just say this because I think the problems will arise tomorrow

22 afternoon. Perhaps in the morning efforts could be made to solve that

23 problem before we waste time in court trying to deal with it. May it

24 please you. And I could help if I -- if the Defence, if there's any way.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp, but this in my opinion is an

Page 1721

1 administrative issue. There are court staff who can provide the

2 assistance that the Court can provide. It's not a matter that needs to be

3 explored at this stage in court here. It can be dealt with by contacting

4 the court staff, by the Defence also contacting Mr. Stamp for such

5 assistance as he can give and also by discussing it with CLSS, if there

6 are difficulties, and I expect the Judges to be involved only if there are

7 problems which cannot be resolved by these administrative means.

8 So let's now adjourn until tomorrow, again tomorrow afternoon

9 at 2.15, and hopefully the problem with this document will be resolved by

10 then.

11 Mr. Peraj, we will have to adjourn now, and you will have to

12 return tomorrow to continue your evidence. Be back in time to recommence

13 at 2.15. Meanwhile, until then you must not discuss your evidence with

14 anyone at all, and by that I mean the evidence you have given or the

15 evidence that you are likely to give. Discuss anything else you like.

16 There's plenty of subjects to discuss with anyone you meet tonight, but

17 the evidence is absolutely off limits. And we will resume, as I say, at

18 2.15 tomorrow.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day

21 of August, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.