Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1722

1 Wednesday, 16 August 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Peraj.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic will now continue with his

9 cross-examination.

10 Mr. Visnjic.

11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic: [Continued]

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Peraj.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 3D60 on e-court,

17 please.

18 Q. Mr. Peraj, you had a telephone conversation with the Prosecution

19 on the 11th of July, 2005, and that telephone conversation was transcribed

20 as a record. Is that correct?

21 A. It's true that I had a telephone call.

22 Q. Tell me, please, how did this happen? Did they tell you

23 beforehand that they would phone you?

24 A. They called me and wanted a conversation with me.

25 Q. Beforehand did they send you the questions that they would be

Page 1723

1 dealing with or at least the topics that the conversation would focus on?

2 A. No, they didn't tell me what they wanted to talk about, but later

3 they did tell me the subject of the conversation.

4 Q. Mr. Peraj, did you follow the Milosevic trial at the time when you

5 were at home, in that period?

6 A. From time to time, yes.

7 Q. Did you watch General Delic's testimony? Am I right in thinking

8 that you did?

9 A. No, I didn't see him.

10 Q. Mr. Peraj, could you please have a look at page 2 of the document

11 that is in front of you -- I beg your pardon. It is 3D60, on e-court. At

12 the same time -- just a moment, please. That is at the same time your

13 statement dated the 11th of July, 2005. Mr. Peraj, underneath the

14 heading, the objective of the campaign, there is a sentence saying: Peraj

15 says that what Delic said, that the objective of this campaign was,

16 et cetera, et cetera, how come you know what Delic said?

17 A. I wrote -- I read about that in the press. I also got a fax about

18 this declaration, I mean about certain issues, but not about the whole

19 matter, not about everything that was declared -- was said during the

20 trial by him.

21 Q. Mr. Peraj, let us go back a bit. Before you had this telephone

22 conversation someone from the OTP sent you a fax. Am I right?

23 A. I wanted to know what he had said. I didn't know, so I asked them

24 to tell me what he had said.

25 Q. And who sent you that fax, Mr. Peraj?

Page 1724

1 A. I don't know, but someone from the Tribunal. I don't know the

2 person personally.

3 Q. Mr. Peraj, do you know who you talked to during that conversation?

4 A. I did get the name -- they told me the name, but I don't remember

5 it.

6 Q. Very well. That's all right. So before you talked, you received

7 a fax. And in the fax you saw what the topics that you would be

8 discussing were. Am I right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what you say, commenting upon what Delic had said, that was

11 actually written in the document that was sent to you by the Tribunal. Am

12 I right?

13 A. I was asked my opinion about the issue.

14 Q. All right. And your first sentence reads as follows, that Delic

15 said that the objective of this campaign was deterrence of the KLA and the

16 defence of the borders of Serbia and by no means expulsion of the

17 population from that area and that 120 soldiers fell as casualties in the

18 defence of Serb borders constitutes "a pure lie."

19 Did I read this properly?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could the English version

21 please be placed on the ELMO for all booths.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I declared.

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Peraj, you actually don't know how many soldiers were

25 casualties in the defence of the border, right?

Page 1725

1 A. I can only speak about the Gjakova region, and the number doesn't

2 correspond to reality. It's too big. I don't know the exact number.

3 Because several times -- quite often, I went to meetings in the

4 municipality building and saw the registry of deaths there -- no, there is

5 a mistake in the translation. I was ordered to go to the office of the

6 registry of births and deaths to register the names and to prepare

7 documents for the transportation of the corpses. I did that several times

8 and went even to the morgue in Nis to send the bodies.

9 Q. Mr. Peraj, to cut the story short, in actual fact you don't know

10 how many soldiers got killed in defending the border. Am I not right? Do

11 you know the exact number or the approximate number?

12 A. I can only tell you about the region of Gjakova and the number --

13 it was a very high figure.

14 Q. What about the region of Djakovica, how many casualties were

15 there? What do you think?

16 A. I sent from Djakovica to Nis about 40 corpses.

17 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Peraj. And in this sentence you go on

18 to claim that the objective of the campaign was not deterring the KLA and

19 the -- and the defence of the border of Serbia. Is that right?

20 A. I said that because the expulsion of the civilian population was

21 the main thing at the time. And if they had not burnt down all the

22 people's houses, I would have thought that the population was only being

23 expelled on a temporary basis.

24 Q. But, Mr. Peraj, you are linking this to the combat near Kosare.

25 You say in your statement that the point was that up to the 27th of April

Page 1726

1 the fighting in Kosare had been over and that therefore there was no

2 reason to have a military operation. Did I understand correctly what your

3 claim is? That's the last sentence in paragraph 3.

4 A. I have to read this a bit first, so I'm a bit slow.

5 Q. Please take your time.

6 MR. STAMP: Paragraph 3 of which statement might assist us.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] This statement that is before the

8 witness, on page 2. It's the page that is on the ELMO. Underneath the

9 words "objective of the campaign," the second paragraph.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have this statement, and

11 it's difficult for me to read it from the monitor.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I'm looking at -- on one page at -- on one

13 side of the screen at 3D1, and this is 3D60, I think.

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] 3D60, yes.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: It's in Serbian.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. That's

17 the version that we got from the OTP. I don't know if they have the

18 Albanian version. I assume they don't, but Mr. Peraj reads --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to have it, please --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, is there also an English version of this?

22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] It is in the system, yes.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE BONOMY: The document I have in front of me is in English,

25 but it says 3D01-0200. Now, is that the English version of 3D60? I doubt

Page 1727

1 it very much.

2 MR. STAMP: I think the number you just quoted, Your Honour, is a

3 document ID number, not the exhibit number. The document ID number is

4 3D01-0199, the English version, but there is a -- the Defence would have

5 given it an exhibit number, which I think is 3D60. But what they have is

6 the English version before the witness. I think they should put the --

7 and I think the B/C/S version is also on the system because we have been

8 able to bring it up. But this is not part of the 92 bis package or part

9 of the 89(F) statement, this as just the record of a conversation that was

10 disclosed.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I follow that. All we want is to know if

12 there's an Albanian version that can be given to the witness and if this

13 is the right English version, and you seem to have dealt with the second

14 point.

15 MR. STAMP: I know that the Defence were served copies in B/C/S.

16 I don't know if they could use one of their copies.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: We've got the B/C/S; it's on the screen.

18 MR. STAMP: He can't see. He's asking if he can have a copy.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: It's on my screen. Why is it not on the witness's?

20 Can we have the witness's screen seen to, please?

21 It is there. It is there, is it? Yeah, it is on the screen.

22 And it looks as though you'll have to make do with what you have,

23 Mr. Visnjic, and carry on.

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Peraj, can you read this statement or should I read this

Page 1728

1 paragraph out to you?

2 A. I agree with three -- the first three paragraphs that I've got

3 here, yes.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I don't think I'm looking at an English

5 version of what I see in B/C/S here at the moment. It does look -- it's

6 page 2 in the English. Is that the correct page?

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. In English it is

8 page number 1. I beg your pardon, it is page number 2. And it's the

9 first paragraph -- or rather, the first paragraph with the -- that starts

10 with the words: "Peraj agrees with Delic that," et cetera.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I have that paragraph. Thank you.

12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I asked the witness about the last

13 sentence in that paragraph which reads as follows --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they do not have the

15 document.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That he believes --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: The interpreters claim that they don't have the

18 document.

19 Why would that be, Mr. Sabbah? No, they still don't have access

20 to the e-court? When's that going to happen?

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that all the booths see B/C/S

23 on their screens.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: It seems pretty pointless if the interpreters can't

25 have access to e-court and you've to provide hard copies for them.

Page 1729

1 Hard copy then, Mr. Visnjic, in English, do you have one?

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Microphone not activated].

3 JUDGE BONOMY: It may be a bit late in the day today, but you'll

4 have to bear this mind, I've forgotten about it too, that the interpreters

5 have to be provided with hard copies of the translations to assist the

6 expeditious conduct of the proceedings.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Serbian version is

8 also on the ELMO. They can follow.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that all booths need English.

10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon. Can we put the

11 English version on the ELMO. Perhaps it would be easier for the

12 interpreters because then they could follow.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, yes because Albanian and

14 French are being done from the English, and the English booth will read

15 the original translation then.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we put your original translation on the ELMO,

17 please.

18 Now, the problem that that -- does that create a problem for the

19 witness? Excuse my ignorance of the technology, but can he still have

20 access to something in B/C/S? All right.

21 You concentrate then on the screen, Mr. Peraj, on the Serbian

22 version and Mr. Visnjic will continue with his questions.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Peraj, again I'm going to repeat my question, although you've

Page 1730

1 answered it.

2 You claim that the objective of the military campaign was not

3 deterring the KLA and defending the borders of Serbia. Am I right?

4 A. I answered this once already. If you want me to repeat it ...

5 Q. If possible, just give yes or no answers.

6 A. Well, I told you that I answered the question and I don't have any

7 other answer to that question.

8 Q. All right, Mr. Peraj.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if I could ask something on this.

10 In answer to Mr. Ackerman yesterday, when he was dealing with the

11 killings in Meja, you said: I can't believe that such a massacre was

12 ordered from above. And you said that the offensive was misused by some.

13 And I must say I formed the impression from that that you were saying that

14 the -- that what happened was not actually part of a planned VJ campaign.

15 Now, are you now saying something different?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I still stand by what I said

17 already, because I cannot believe -- I don't want to believe that there

18 existed such feelings.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, in that case, was -- what do you say was the

20 objective of the military campaign?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Concretely about the Meja case, I

22 can say that I don't think that that was army's purpose to -- for so many

23 people to be killed, 367 people to be killed.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that you're being questioned on the

25 basis of what you say it was not. But I would like to know what you say

Page 1731

1 it actually was. What was the purpose of the campaign? And by that I'm

2 talking about the -- the movement through the Carragojs Valley.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it was abused, it was

4 misused, I mean the army was misused by the MUP forces and the

5 paramilitary forces for the reasons that I gave.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, you're obviously not content with these

7 answers, Mr. Visnjic, so no doubt you'll wish to pursue it further if you

8 really think it necessary. But -- I have to say I'm quite confused now

9 by -- I thought it had been cleared up by Mr. Ackerman.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to give

12 an explanation --


14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- about your question.

15 In the valley of Carragojs they thought that there were members of

16 the KLA there. This was one version. The second issue was that the --

17 was the question of taking revenge against the people who killed Inspector

18 Prascevic and the policemen.

19 And the third point, which is much more important to me, is that

20 they wanted to kill those people because if they would go to Albania, they

21 would come back armed, creating units and attacking them. These things

22 that I'm saying, I mean the third point, this was much talked about in the

23 Serbian media and television.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: But I really don't find it terribly helpful,

25 Mr. Peraj, to hear from you what was on the Serbian media, and if I can

Page 1732

1 ask you to concentrate on the third point you made which has been

2 translated as: They wanted to kill those people because if they went to

3 Albania they'd come back armed as -- and provide, obviously, further

4 resistance.

5 Who do you mean by "they wanted to kill those people"? Who are

6 they?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police, the paramilitary forces,

8 the police reservists, Territorial Defence of the municipality.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Visnjic, that's exactly what the witness

10 said yesterday.

11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what the witness states

12 in his statement is that there was no military reason for the campaign, or

13 purpose, so I'm just sticking to military matters. Now --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that statement part of his evidence in the case

15 so far before you raised it with him?

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's where the confusion begins. Hopefully

18 when witnesses come to court what they say in court is, in general - not

19 by any means always but in general - the version that really most matters

20 for the Court itself.

21 Anyway, carry on.

22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Peraj, have you heard of Operation Strela, or Arrow, by which

24 the KLA attacked the territory of Yugoslavia from the territory of

25 Albania?

Page 1733

1 A. I've heard about it. I've heard the name, but I don't know which

2 operation was called by that name. I can't remember.

3 Q. Now, the operation that began on the 9th of April, the attack on

4 Kosare, do you know how long it lasted? How long did that attack last?

5 A. I don't know how many days, but I know that it occurred, the

6 attack I mean, and the crossing of the border.

7 Q. Do you know what forces were deployed against the Army of

8 Yugoslavia at that point in time?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Do you know how many casualties there were on both sides? Did you

11 hear any figures mentioned?

12 A. No, I don't know.

13 Q. So you don't know whether the operation finished before the 27th

14 of April. Is that right?

15 A. This happened before the 27th of April, 1999.

16 Q. And that operation was completed before the 27th of April, but you

17 can't tell us how many days before?

18 A. I mentioned this before, and I'm saying this again. There have --

19 there were sporadic attacks now and again, while closer to the 27th of

20 April. And later that date I did not hear about any major operation.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown Defence

22 exhibit 3D28, please.

23 Q. Mr. Peraj --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, do you have an English copy of this for the

25 ELMO for the same reason as the last one?

Page 1734

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no, I don't have a copy

2 in English, but this time I have a reason -- good reason for that, because

3 the document was provided just a few days before this witness's testimony,

4 and in fact, we received it on Sunday and have a document to prove that.

5 But I do reserve the right when I don't have such a good justification to

6 be held responsible, but this time it really wasn't our fault. So 3D28 is

7 the next exhibit.

8 Q. Mr. Peraj, do you know who Spiro Butka was?

9 A. I don't know.

10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] May we have --

11 Q. Or, rather, Mr. Peraj, on page 1 - and I'm going to read out the

12 explanation - we're talking about an article -- it is an interview of the

13 former chief of the supreme staff of Kosovo Spiro Butka on the 5th of

14 September, 2004 --

15 MR. STAMP: The Prosecution formally objects. There is no way we

16 can follow it and check the document at all without a copy being provided

17 in one of the languages of the Tribunal. The Rules and the jurisprudence

18 of the Tribunal are very clear in this regard.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: You don't have anyone on your staff now then who

20 can read B/C/S?

21 MR. STAMP: There are people on the staff who can read B/C/S. We

22 have been served with quite a lot of documents from a variety of sources.

23 We -- and we cannot allocate staff to cover matters which ought to have

24 been covered by parties to the proceedings abiding by the Rules. There

25 are resource implications.

Page 1735

1 JUDGE BONOMY: So what would your suggestion be? That we don't

2 allow this, even though it only was discovered on Sunday, that we should

3 refuse to allow this to happen?

4 MR. STAMP: No. My suggestion would be, with respect, is that if

5 necessary, if when we do get a version in -- or a translation in one of

6 the languages of the Tribunal we have the opportunity to get some time to

7 review it and then make appropriate applications. The problem is, you

8 know, the more one thinks about it -- this is the Prosecution's witness,

9 and it is the Defence who is responsible to bring the document here. If

10 something turns out from our review of the document in English that we

11 want to ask the witness about or put before the witness, the witness might

12 have left, and it will be for the Prosecution to bring him back if it is

13 an important matter. That is why the Rules should be abided by from the

14 beginning. However, I don't ask for any sanctions. I put the objection

15 on the record and say that we may need to -- we may need liberty to apply

16 for relief, if necessary.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: How lengthy is this document, Mr. Visnjic?

18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document is five

19 pages long and it is my intention to read out not more than ten lines from

20 it.


22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] But with your permission, might I be

23 allowed to make a comment to what Mr. Stamp just said?

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I doubt if it's going to advance matters because

25 what you could have done here -- and it's as well that this is arising

Page 1736

1 now. Within reason, CLSS will accommodate this sort of situation. And

2 ten lines are capable of being translated at short notice, subject to the

3 other demands that are being made upon that office, and I gather there are

4 other demands being made in relation to Defence documents for

5 cross-examination of this witness. So you probably could, I think with a

6 little thought, have tried to arrange that, and that would have resolved

7 the difficulty.

8 If I can take the matter just a little further. Is it actually

9 something you need to put to the witness in the form of the document? Is

10 the question that you're going to ask one that needs to be put this way at

11 all? It sounds to me as though a document written in 2004 may not be

12 something that has to be put to the witness for your purpose here. I may

13 be wrong, but if you can get around the problem in some other way, then it

14 would be helpful.

15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will do that, yes.

16 But in this specific case I have to say that the Defence had a series of

17 good reasons why it didn't and that technically we couldn't send in a

18 request to the CLSS because the state -- the document from 2005 was

19 disclosed 24 hours before the witness's testimony here today. We asked

20 our investigator for a reaction to the document, and all that we received

21 is this article which arrived, as I said, late on Sunday night by e-mail.

22 So even had we wanted to, we couldn't have done that. But I do agree for

23 future procedure we shall abide by your ruling, but as I say, we weren't

24 able to do that for this case.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Your comment is well made. Mr. Stamp will say it

Page 1737

1 was only disclosed because we ordered its disclosure, but I -- it seems to

2 me that we ordered it in terms of the Rules and that suggests that the

3 Prosecution hadn't complied with the Rules at that stage. So we have a

4 tit for tat exchange here which advances matters not -- none at all.

5 Hopefully behind the scenes these problems will be resolved in future

6 before we get into court.

7 In any event, please carry on with your question.

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Peraj, Spiro Butka, who was the commander of the KLA, of a

10 group numbering 6.000 soldiers, which attacked Kosare, says in this

11 article that this operation started on the 9th of April, 1999, at 0330

12 hours. Does that correspond to your recollections about the beginning of

13 the attack on Kosare?

14 A. First of all, I have to say that this name, Spiro Butka, I can't

15 recall ever having heard about him.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: This is just -- this is just an example I think of

17 where we're going astray.

18 The question can be asked, Mr. Visnjic, without any reference to

19 Spiro Butka. And, you know, when you introduce personalities like this

20 and the witness says he doesn't know them, and then the question is

21 followed up with a reference to what this person he doesn't know has said,

22 you inevitably get an answer that's really got nothing to do with what you

23 want because what you want to know is the time at which the operation

24 started. So, I mean, is there any really reason for reference to this guy

25 at all?

Page 1738

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's try and focus things on what we're

3 really after and see if we can't make some progress. We're sort of bogged

4 down at the moment.

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Peraj, if I put it to you that the attack Strela lasted from

7 the 20th [as interpreted] of April to May 1999, does that change anything?

8 Does that change what you told me about what you know about the completion

9 of the operation on Kosare?

10 A. I can tell you that there has been fighting at the beginning up to

11 the middle of April because there was an attack, a larger attack I would

12 say, but I can't remember how long it took, for how long it happened, and

13 it was a time when they infringed the border and came up to Kosare.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, how does that tie in with the earlier

15 question that was about the 9th of April?

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think there was a

17 mistake. It was the 9th of April until the end of May, 1999. I'm looking

18 at the transcript. The date should be the 9th of April.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Not the 28th, but the 9th. Thank you.

20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Correct, yes, the 9th of April.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the question would be wrongly translated for

22 the witness, so you may have to ask it again I think, because the

23 translation is based on the English translation.

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Peraj, if I put it to you that the fighting at Kosare started

Page 1739

1 on the 9th of April and went on until the end of May -- or rather, the

2 20th of May, 1999, to be exact.

3 A. I already told you, it could have been from the beginning of April

4 1999 till the 20th of May, during that period there was an attack, a

5 somewhat larger attack, when people came through the border, crossed the

6 border. And I'm not denying that there weren't any sporadic attacks time

7 after time, but I haven't heard of any major operation. The only thing I

8 can speak about here is the case when the border was violated. That was

9 the largest operation I can remember.

10 Q. That's what I'm saying. I claim that the operation went on until

11 the 20th of May, 1999.

12 A. I don't know how long it lasted, but I know it was not a major

13 operation. There was no major operation closer to the 27th of April.

14 There could have been sporadic attacks now and then; I'm not denying that,

15 smaller attacks.

16 Q. Very well. Mr. Peraj, tell me this: Did the army with the tanks

17 move during the war, according to what you know? Were there tank

18 movements?

19 A. I did not visit the unit, the tank unit, with the exception of the

20 unit we talked about yesterday, Terezine of Republika Srpska, where I sent

21 the mail and supplies.

22 Q. You say in the statement on page 4 that - and we're talking about

23 exhibit 3D --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1740

1 Q. 3D60 of the 11th of July, 2005. You spoke about the activities

2 around Drenica. Now, my question is: Did you see that personally, the

3 air force in the region of Drenica?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel speak into the microphone, please.

5 Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was before 1999. It didn't

7 happen in 1999.

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Thank you. So during the war, to the best of your knowledge, the

10 Serb air force was not flying. Would that be right?

11 A. Yes, they flew, but this was before the warnings of NATO.

12 Q. And when did NATO send warnings?

13 A. If I remember correctly, it was by the end of February/beginning

14 of March. This is when I heard it, that flights were strictly prohibited,

15 because if they were seen flying they would be eliminated. The officers

16 spoke about this a lot. They spoke about it daily.

17 Q. Well, how did you come to state that Serb planes bombed the

18 convoys in that same statement on page 4?

19 A. There is a suspicion that two planes, MiG, so of MiG make, flew

20 from the military airport in Podgorica. This is my suspicion. I

21 cannot -- I was not able to verify it or anything 100 per cent. I saw

22 those planes; they were flying very low.

23 Q. When did you see them?

24 A. The day when the bombs fell on the house of Sadri Bejk [phoen] in

25 Meja and the convoy was there on the road by the house, and the convoy was

Page 1741

1 there on that day. I can't remember the exact date. However, on the way

2 up to that place when we were going there, I saw these airplanes flying

3 towards Prizren.

4 Q. And you recognised them as being MiGs belonging to the Yugoslav

5 army. Is that right?

6 A. They were MiGs. I did not see the exact signs on the planes, what

7 was written.

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] May the witness be shown Defence

9 exhibit 3D209 now, please?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Can counsel speak into the microphone? Thank

11 you.

12 MR. VISNJIC: 3D is the number 59, Defence exhibit 3D59.

13 Q. Mr. Peraj, you're going to be seeing a map shortly showing you the

14 deployment of the units of the 52nd Artillery Brigade of the PVO during

15 the NATO aggression against Yugoslav. My question to you is this: Your

16 unit was in charge of a large portion of the territory in Kosovo, the air

17 space in that territory. Would I be right in saying that?

18 A. Yes, to some extent, yes.

19 Q. On the assumption that Yugoslav planes were flying, your unit

20 would have to have been informed about that, would it not, so that you

21 wouldn't start shooting at them?

22 A. Sir, I told you that that was my suspicion, that those planes flew

23 very low and they looked very much like MiGs and that I did not see the

24 signs on them, what was written on them. I told you. I did not see the

25 markings on the plane.

Page 1742

1 Q. Mr. Peraj, in your statement further on, that same statement, the

2 Serbian version page 5, paragraph 1, and the English version is page 4,

3 paragraph 2, you said that collateral damage from the bombing was small,

4 and what you mean there is NATO bombing. Am I right?

5 A. I was thinking about civilian objects, civilian buildings.

6 Because even if you shoot a rifle you can shoot wrong, let alone if you

7 shoot from an airplane.

8 Q. So you didn't mean the civilian casualties of the bombing. Am I

9 right?

10 A. That's another matter completely, a different matter.

11 Q. Tell me, were a lot of people killed by the NATO bombing?

12 A. I know that in Meja there were such casualties and also in

13 Bistrazin close to Xerxa over 50 or 60 dead, as far as I know. And I've

14 heard about casualties in Prizren, I don't remember the number, the

15 figure, but I know that there were casualties close to Prizren, a place

16 called Korishe.

17 Q. Mr. Peraj, I'm going to show you Defence exhibit 3D49 now.

18 Mr. Peraj, is that a list -- can you see 3D49, that Defence

19 exhibit?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] We have a technical problem.

22 [In English] I can show the witness on ELMO.

23 [Interpretation] Would you please -- or could this exhibit be

24 placed on the ELMO, please, because we're encountering technical

25 difficulties.

Page 1743

1 Q. Mr. Peraj, do you have before you a list of casualties?

2 A. The list is not clear to me. I can't read it.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the technical problem seems to have been

4 overcome, and therefore we could go back to the e-court version,

5 Mr. Visnjic, which will be clearer.

6 MR. STAMP: Can I just inquire if there is a date for this

7 document and -- and a description as to its source or what it really

8 refers to?

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I've got a more fundamental question about

10 what's the point of doing it this way, but let's find out what the

11 question is first of all.

12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] This is a document which was marked

13 for identification in the Milosevic case, and it constitutes a list of

14 victims of NATO bombing of a column in Djakovica. I was wondering if the

15 witness knew any of these people and whether he could help me with that.

16 That was the point of my question.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Carry on.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, the list does

19 not coincide, unless there is a longer list, because from what I know

20 there were casualties from this bombing, mostly from Dobrosh village and

21 Racaj village. There were some 20 casualties from both villages. Here I

22 see the name Sismon or some other villages which ...

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask for

24 the second page of the document to be shown to the witness because in

25 Serbian the document has two pages.

Page 1744

1 Q. Mr. Peraj, on the second page you have the entire list through

2 number 43. Can you tell me what column of refugees this is and if you

3 recall when this happened?

4 A. I don't remember the date, but many persons here in this list I

5 know. They come from Race. They were bombed in two occasions, one in May

6 and -- but it was not in May but on the same day.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

8 further questions for this witness.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.

10 Mr. O'Sullivan.

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have no additional questions.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 Mr. Fila.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no questions for

15 the witness. Thank you.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 Mr. Lukic.

18 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, we do have some questions for this

19 witness, and I would like to start with some documents for which we

20 don't -- do not have official translation. But we made unofficial

21 translations. So I think that it could be provided for Your Honours,

22 translators, and the Prosecutor, so that way we might move quickly. And

23 the documents are in the system, but only on the B/C/S.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well, it will be for the translators,

25 obviously, to use these to assist -- or rather, the interpreters to use

Page 1745

1 them to assist. They will only, as you know, be admitted provisionally.

2 They'll be marked for identification, and any final decision will depend

3 on formal translation.

4 MR. LUKIC: We are aware of that.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: But it's helpful to have an unofficial translation

6 at this stage if that was all it was possible to arrange.

7 MR. LUKIC: And, Your Honour, I have to mention that it's partial

8 unofficial translation. We translated only parts we intend to use, not

9 the whole documents.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that largely is the course of action that

11 parties should follow in the case. Unless translation of the whole thing

12 is necessary for context, then translations should be confined to what's

13 essential when arrangements have to be made at short notice. But if these

14 unofficial translations are in the system, then they'll come up on the

15 screen.

16 MR. LUKIC: No, they are not, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, they're not?

18 MR. LUKIC: Only B/C/S version.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

20 MR. LUKIC: And I have only to announce one correction in the

21 exhibit number 6D44, because English booth got these translations before

22 we made the correction, and the correction was made -- the date was

23 changed. It was 22nd. Now actually it should be 21st. That's the only

24 correction made in these documents.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 1746

1 MR. LUKIC: And I would kindly ask the registrar to show the

2 witness exhibit number 6D14 in B/C/S.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Peraj.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. I am sorry, I didn't apologise -- that I didn't introduce myself

7 before. Together with Mr. Ivetic and Mr. Ogrizovic, I am Defence counsel

8 for -- for General Lukic.

9 There is a document before you which was sent by the centre of the

10 security services in Prizren -- the Djakovica, rather, security service

11 department to the district public Prosecutor in Pec. This is a criminal

12 report, a charge sheet, and we see that five persons -- or rather, six

13 persons, all of them citizens of the Republic of Albania, were reported to

14 have brought weapons into the Republic of Yugoslavia from the Republic of

15 Albania. I will now just read out to you a part of page 3, so I would

16 kindly ask the registrar to place page 3 on the screen.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.

18 MR. STAMP: Before we do that, counsel was telling us that the

19 document is I take it -- or was he asking the witness if he could identify

20 the document?

21 JUDGE BONOMY: No, he was telling the witness what it is.

22 MR. STAMP: He should ask the witness if the witness accepts

23 that's what it is or unless he's putting on the record, as counsel,

24 evidence as to what it is.

25 MR. LUKIC: I just wanted to speed up the matter.

Page 1747

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not following you, Mr. Stamp. Why does he do

2 that? We don't know what the question is yet, do we?

3 MR. LUKIC: We can stipulate that --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: No, hold -- one at a time.

5 I'm not following your objection.

6 MR. STAMP: The objection is that counsel just made a speech

7 speaking about a document which he has put in front of the witness. He's

8 speaking about the contents of the document. Apparently he had described

9 what the document is.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what's wrong with that?

11 MR. STAMP: Well, we don't know if the witness accepts that. He

12 has moved on. This is a document which he has put before the witness and

13 as counsel he's telling us what the document is.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: It's like showing the witness the indictment in

15 this case and then saying: What is that document? What's wrong with an

16 indictment in a Serb case being described by counsel as such?

17 MR. STAMP: With respect, Your Honour, the indictment in this case

18 is an integral part of the proceedings. This is a document which counsel

19 says is a charge sheet, that is, a brief description of what the document

20 is, acceptable. But then counsel goes on to tell us what the contents of

21 this document are without giving the witness an opportunity to comment on

22 what the contents of the documents are in circumstances where I am not in

23 a position to read this document.

24 Now, since the witness speaks B/C/S and can read B/C/S, then to

25 have counsel telling us, which is almost akin to giving evidence about

Page 1748

1 what the document is, he could ask the witness instead of making a

2 description of the contents of a document that he puts before the witness

3 and then moves on to something else. That's all I'm saying.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, we're not -- we don't agree with this.

6 We are happy to trust responsible counsel's description of a formal court

7 document presented in the context of asking a question when he confines a

8 description to calling it a charge sheet with six people on it, reported

9 to have brought weapons into the Republic of Yugoslav from the Republic of

10 Albania, and then to proceed to read out the part that's actually

11 translated. We can see nothing wrong with that approach to the

12 question -- questioning of the witness, and therefore we repel the

13 objection.

14 MR. STAMP: [Microphone not activated].

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Stamp.

16 MR. STAMP: I'm sorry. Just to make it clear, I trust

17 counsel's -- the objection had nothing to do with counsel's description.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Carry on, Mr. Lukic.

19 MR. STAMP: It's our ability to follow what is happening.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: We should make it clear, we understand the

21 difficulties caused by the absence of a translation, but that doesn't

22 detract from the fact that we are dealing with formal court documentation

23 which counsel should be able to summarise accurately.

24 So please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We can stipulate that this

Page 1749

1 witness does not know the contents of this document. We are not alleging

2 that he composed the document, so that's why we thought that it's wise to

3 skip the reading by the witness. And thank you, I'll proceed.

4 [Interpretation] Could the registrar please assist us. Could we

5 see the last section of this page? Thank you. That is the part that we

6 actually had translated. We started with the paragraph from the top of

7 the page. It starts with the words, the name, Sulaj Bujar [phoen]. And

8 it says: "Sulaj Bujar for a DTG of the Jasic village transferred large

9 amounts of weapons. Upon his return around 6.30 on the 25th of June,

10 1998, he did not stop when warned by members of the Yugoslav army, but

11 rather opened fire from an automatic rifle of Chinese manufacture, after

12 which he was arrested."

13 Mr. Peraj, are you aware of the fact that large quantities of

14 weapons were brought in from the Republic of Albania into Kosovo?

15 A. I have no knowledge as to the quantity of such weapons. But I,

16 too, know, I'm certain that, weapons were brought in from Albania to

17 Kosova.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. And this was asserted also by KLA members.

20 Q. Mr. Peraj, do you know that KLA units received support in

21 personnel as well from the Republic of Albania?

22 A. I don't know this because I never met them, fortunately.

23 Q. In this criminal report, do we not see that this is a case when we

24 have citizens of the Republic of Albania entering Kosovo?

25 A. I'm not denying what you put to me; namely, that there were such

Page 1750

1 people. Even they conducted trade in arms.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Is the allegation in this case confined to one

3 person entering Yugoslavia?

4 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour. It's -- the allegation is that all

5 six of these people entered Yugoslavia, only we didn't want to translate

6 because it's similar for each and every one of them.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Peraj, do you allow for the possibility that in the areas of

10 the Djakovica municipality there were members of the KLA who had come from

11 the Republic of Albania?

12 A. I allow for the possibility, but personally I have no information.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have on e-court

15 6D24?

16 Q. Mr. Peraj, originally you come from the village of Ramoc, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. We see in this criminal report that 42 persons are involved -- or

19 rather, this report was filed against 42 persons for taking part in an

20 armed rebellion. Of course it is assumed that they are members of the

21 KLA. Number 2 and number 4 are Marku Ljuz and Pnishi Nik. They are from

22 the village of Ramoc. Do you know these men?

23 A. None of them is from Ramoc village. As far as I know, one is from

24 Nec village.

25 Q. Yes, you're right. The man under number 4 was born in Ramoc but

Page 1751

1 lives in Nec, and that is the neighbouring village, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the man under number 4 -- number 2 --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. -- was born in Ramoc and lives in Ramoc? The one but last line

7 under number 2.

8 A. Unfortunately, this name Marku Ljuz is not known to me. Maybe he

9 is a young man and I don't know him.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we can look at the next page,

11 please.

12 Q. We will see persons under number 5, 6, 7, and 8, and they are from

13 the village of Nec. Marku Fran, under number 9, is from the village of

14 Ramoc. Number 12 and 13, then number 12 it is Bibljekaj Dome, who was

15 from the village of Nec. Number 13, Pnishi Palj, the village of Ramoc.

16 On the next page, number 15, Pnishi Kend, from the village of Nec. Number

17 20, Hadzija Isuf, from the village of Nec. And now page number 5, we need

18 number 39 and number 40. We see under number 39 a person named Pnishi

19 Mark from the village of Nec, and number 40 is Nikaj Fran from the village

20 of Nec.

21 The other day we had Mr. Pnishi Martin as a witness here who

22 recognised the persons by the last name of Pnishi from this list.

23 However, since there was no translation we could not go into further

24 detail with him as to whether he knew whether these persons belonged to

25 the KLA.

Page 1752

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I note the transcript, Mr. Lukic, is reflecting

2 these names as Pernishi, and the spelling is P-n-i-s-h-i.

3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: On you go. Just this question and then we'll have

5 our break.


7 Q. [Interpretation] On this document, for example, under number 39

8 does it not say Pnishi, Mark?

9 A. The name is correct, Mark Pnishi.

10 Q. Thank you. Now we will have to take a break.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll break now for 20 minutes. We'll

12 resume at five past 4.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic -- I'm sorry, Mr. Cepic.

16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, [In English] If you allow

17 me to mention, just to announce that we have some change in our Defence

18 team. Now is in appearance with me our legal assistant Mr. Milan

19 Petrovic, and Mr. Mihajlo Bakrac is in Defence room during this session.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: That's entirely in order, Mr. Cepic. There won't

21 be any need to indicate any changes in the personnel present. As long as

22 accused are represented by one of either counsel or co-counsel during any

23 session, that's adequate.

24 MR. CEPIC: I understood, Your Honour --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm quite surprised that we see so many present all

Page 1753

1 the time. I thought there were so many things to be done behind the

2 scenes. Thank you, though, for that announcement.

3 Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. STAMP: Sorry.


6 MR. STAMP: May I also announce, since the opportunity presents

7 itself, that appearing with the Prosecution to the right of Ms. Fikirini

8 is Ms. Irina Dragulev.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

10 Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. But again we have to

12 intervene regarding the transcript. I think that that name Pnishi has not

13 been spelled correctly again, and it should be P-n-i-s-h-i.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Nike, on your screen we see a person under 39, Pnishi Mark; do

17 you know him?

18 A. Yes, I know this person, and all those that are from Nec village.

19 Q. Do you know that in the village of Nec -- or rather, that the

20 village of Nec was a strong -- KLA stronghold?

21 A. I am aware that there were KLA presence in Nec but not in that

22 large number, as you are putting it to me.

23 Q. We have 42 persons listed here -- just let me take a moment to

24 find my next page.

25 In paragraph 105, didn't you yourself say that in the village of

Page 1754

1 Ramoc the Yugoslav army and MUP surrounded a KLA brigade there numbering

2 126 uniformed members and 40 volunteers?

3 A. Yes, I have stated that and I am repeating it. This happened in

4 the beginning of June 1999. Those persons came there but they were not

5 there before.

6 Q. We'll come back to that part of your statement, thank you.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we have exhibit 6D30 placed on the

8 screen now, please?

9 Q. I'll briefly explain what this is about, and please correct me if

10 I'm wrong. This is the crime police -- criminal police department filing

11 a criminal report to the district prosecutor's office in Pec, and the text

12 I'm going to read out has been translated into English partially, and it

13 reads as follows: "On the 25th of March, 1999, at 1955 hours during NATO

14 air attacks, a terrorist attack was launched against Danilovic Nenad, a

15 member of the crime police of the SUP of Djakovica, and the terrorist

16 attack was committed in the centre of Djakovica in the park in front of

17 the Pastrik Hotel."

18 Mr. Peraj, you said that the KLA was not active in the town of

19 Djakovica proper during that period of time.

20 A. I mean the fighting that took place there because in cases of one

21 or two persons being involved in armed confrontation, but they didn't see

22 large groups of people. I am not denying that this person was not killed.

23 Q. So we can conclude that in the town of Djakovica itself there were

24 terrorist attacks, both against civilians and against members of the army

25 and police. Is that right? And, I apologise, just to add, during -- or

Page 1755

1 rather, from the beginning of 1999 to the end of the war, in June.

2 A. I am repeating it, that such cases have occurred.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown the

5 following exhibit, 6D32.

6 Q. This is a criminal report filed by the criminal police department

7 to the district prosecutor's office in Pec once again. And the text that

8 has been translated reads as follows: "On the 16th of April, 1999, at

9 around 1300 hours in the village of Zabelj, Djakovica municipality,

10 members of a sabotage terrorist group launched a terrorist attack against

11 members of the MUP of Serbia. Incoming fire came from guns, hand-held

12 launchers, and hand-grenades. The following policemen were killed:

13 Rauzan Zeljko, a police officer of the SUP of Kikinda; Bunic Jelenko, a

14 police officer of the SUP of Kikinda; and Sandic Goran, a police officer

15 of the SUP of Kikinda, while Velickovic Predrag was grievously bodily

16 wounded in his shoulder, and he was a police officer of the SUP of

17 Kikinda."

18 Mr. Peraj, in our records we have around 300-such criminal

19 reports, but in order to save time we have selected just some of them to

20 discuss them with you. Now, does this show once more active involvement

21 or activities by the KLA in the Djakovica municipality? Who would you say

22 killed those three police officers on the 16th of April, 1999?

23 A. I do not deny that what you are putting to me is wrong. They may

24 have been killed by KLA groups. Someone killed them, of course.

25 Certainly it must have been the KLA members.

Page 1756

1 Q. Thank you. The next document that I'd like to show you is 6D34.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Lukic, I take it it's to obtain more

3 information than you already have from the witness to the effect that

4 there were regular KLA attacks throughout the period of six months at the

5 beginning of 1999 against civilians, army, and police? Are you trying to

6 establish more than that now?

7 MR. LUKIC: We want to establish that they were really active and

8 in addition to this we'll show the connection with NATO raids as well.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: But you're not doing -- you're not establishing

10 that they were really active by asking the witness questions about cases

11 of which he has no personal knowledge. All he can give you is a general

12 answer. And putting things that he has no knowledge of doesn't add to

13 that. You'll have to prove these various cases, if you want to, if you

14 feel the need to, at a later stage.

15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, that's our intention exactly.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Well, please ensure that the

17 cross-examination does serve a useful purpose.

18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. [Interpretation] We were dealing with document 6D35 -- or rather,

20 we're going to do so now. The date on that document is the 21st of April,

21 1999, the event that is being addressed. I'm not going to place it on the

22 ELMO in order to save time. It deals with the killing, the killing of a

23 policeman name Prascevic and some other men who were in a group with him

24 and you testified about this. But I would like to show you 6D44, that

25 exhibit. This is what it's about. It is a daily report or bulletin

Page 1757

1 speaking about the 22nd of April, 1999, which is the date of the previous

2 document -- or rather, the portion we translated states as follows.

3 "On the 21st of April, 1999, NATO air forces launched an attack

4 with rockets on the refugee centre of Meja in Djakovica housing Serb

5 refugees from the Republic of Croatia. Four persons lost their lives."

6 And here we have listed their names. Vuladevic Darko, 24 years

7 old; and his brother Vuladevic Davor, 27 years old; Ilic Gordana, 31 years

8 old; and a child, a minor, Ivancevic Miodrag, 7 years old. 20 people were

9 injured in the attack, two of which received serious life-threatening

10 injuries.

11 You yourself as a member of the Army of Yugoslavia, did you have

12 any knowledge about the fact that NATO air-strikes were launched as

13 support and reinforcement to KLA attacks.

14 A. From what I remember, there weren't.

15 Q. Is it your testimony that the attacks on Kosare and the borders of

16 Yugoslavia from Albania were not supported by NATO air-strikes? Is that

17 what you're saying?

18 A. I heard that they were, but personally I have no information.

19 Q. Who did you hear that from, that there was a link between NATO

20 air-strikes and the rest?

21 A. The officers. My colleagues talked among themselves about this.

22 Q. The next exhibit I'd like to show you is 6D46. We have here a

23 report to the district prosecutor's office in Pec, and it says as --

24 states as follows in the portion translated. "Report on bombardment by

25 NATO aviation of Dobrosh village, Djakovica municipality, on the 29th of

Page 1758

1 April, 1999, in which attack grievous bodily harm was inflicted on Causi

2 Sadik from Dobrosh village, Djakovica municipality."

3 Along with this report we have several documents attached but we

4 have not been able to translate that. What I'm going to ask you now is

5 this: Do you know what ethnicity Causi Sadik was?

6 A. Sadik Causi is Albanian. And I knew someone by this name -- I

7 used to know someone by this name.

8 Q. That's why I'm asking you, since you mentioned going to Dobrosh

9 village, do you know that this man was wounded?

10 A. I never mentioned in any of my statements so far that I was in

11 Dobrosh in the course of war.

12 Q. I'm not saying that you were there in the course of the war; I

13 just said that you went to Dobrosh village.

14 A. Before the war, yes, because I used to work in Seremet as a

15 teacher, before 1975.

16 Q. Yes. And do you know that this man was wounded by NATO?

17 A. I am not aware of NATO operation in Dobrosh.

18 Q. Do you know of any other examples when Albanian civilians fell

19 casualty from the NATO bombings?

20 A. I mentioned earlier there were casualties in Meja [Realtime

21 transcript read in error "May"], Bistrazin, in the vicinity of Xerxa, then

22 I said in Prizren, Korishe.

23 MR. LUKIC: Again, probably it would be corrected in the

24 transcript it says "May" instead of "Meja."

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 1759

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. In your testimony you spoke about local security, and we have

3 prepared a document, 6D52 is the number of the document. I'm going to

4 just briefly read out the portion that has been translated, and then I'm

5 going to ask you something about the document after I've done that.

6 It is the Djakovica police station compiling an official note

7 which says that on the 19th of May, 1999 - and I'm reading the note - it

8 says official note, starting again. On the 19th of May, 1999, in the

9 official duty station of the police station of Djakovica by policeman

10 Milos Scepanovic, Mirko Nisevic, and Radomir Otasevic in regards to the

11 following. On the 19th of May, 1999, at around 1340 hours, upon orders of

12 the assistant commander of the PS of Djakovica to communicate with members

13 of the local security in the village of Osek Hilja because they have three

14 detained persons. Upon our arrival on location we found, encountered, the

15 following persons. And three persons are mentioned Gjorgin [phoen]

16 Bisaku, Ardian Bisaku and Zef Tusi [phoen]. And the last sentence reads:

17 "Members of the local security informed us that the aforementioned

18 persons were caught stealing in Osek Hilja village."

19 When you refer to the local police, you mean members of the local

20 security. Is that right? That is to say, units -- the unit that was

21 established by the Djakovica municipality. Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know that the members of these units were people from the

24 villages in which they worked?

25 A. They were from various villages. But in the case of Osek Hilja,

Page 1760

1 the majority of the members were from that area.

2 Q. When Djakovica municipality established these units, was that

3 understood by the Albanian population as an intention to give back

4 confidence and trust and to ease tensions that way?

5 A. On the contrary. These persons were looked upon unfavourably by

6 the situation -- the population.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were seen as collaborators of

9 MUP.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. What about the villagers, did they like seeing them better? Or

12 did they prefer seeing members of the army or police?

13 A. To tell you the truth, neither one.

14 Q. So according to you, the state of Serbia could not do anything

15 that the Albanian population would like to see happen?

16 A. In my opinion, it could have done a lot, but unfortunately it did

17 not.

18 Q. Generally speaking, we can conclude, I think that that is your

19 testimony in this part anyway, whoever was prepared to cooperate with the

20 Republic of Serbia was considered to be a collaborator and he would be

21 looked upon very unfavourably, very adversely, by the Albanian population?

22 A. Is it a question?

23 Q. Yes, that is a question. I can repeat it if necessary.

24 A. If it is a question, of course I'm going to answer it. You don't

25 need to repeat it. Yes, this is how they were looked upon.

Page 1761

1 Q. Thank you. I would just like to show you yet another document

2 marked 6D62. It is an official note dated the 14th of May, 1999. It was

3 compiled by the secretariat in Djakovica. We have translated a part of

4 it. The employees of the Djakovica police station reported to the duty

5 service that a person got sick, and that is Rubik Bejtullah, born in 1963.

6 He lived in the Migjeni street in the municipality of Djakovica. The

7 person was transferred by the patrol to hospital and he was handed to

8 Osman Hoxha, a doctor at the department of internal medicine, and he

9 established that this person had suffered a heart attack. On the very same

10 day, the patrol transferred Bunjaku Artan to the hospital and he was

11 handed to Dr. Agron, MD, who established that this was a case of jaundice.

12 Can you tell us, Rubik Bejtullah, what is his ethnicity?

13 A. From the name, he must be Albanian.

14 Q. What about Dr. Osman Hoxha, what is his ethnicity?

15 A. Albanian.

16 Q. What about Bunjaku Arton, or Artan, what is that person's

17 ethnicity?

18 A. From the name, he too is Albanian.

19 Q. What about Dr. Agron Binxhia?

20 A. Albanian.

21 Q. Do you recall -- or rather, are you aware of any cases when the

22 police in Djakovica assisted the population, the citizens, in the period

23 from January to June 1999?

24 A. Yes, there have been cases.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Peraj. Now we are going to focus on your own

Page 1762

1 statement. As far as I know, this statement was provided to us only in

2 English and in B/C/S. I don't know whether there is an Albanian version,

3 but I can actually provide references only to the B/C/S and English

4 versions. Did you perhaps give this statement in B/C/S?

5 A. I have my statements in Serbian.

6 Q. Can you follow the statement then in that language?

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, the statement says clearly "it's been

8 read over to me in the Serbo-Croatian language."

9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, but I'm not aware, maybe it was

10 provided to the witness in Albanian. Maybe he prefers the other one.

11 That's all I wanted to clarify.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think it exists, so please proceed.

13 MR. LUKIC: Thanks a lot. Thank you.

14 Q. [Interpretation] I'll deal with this statement in the proper

15 order, but we shall be skipping over certain paragraphs. In paragraph 13

16 you provide a diagram of armed groups. In the third box you have the

17 Territorial Defence, including the civilian civil defence and the

18 paramilitary forces. Is that correct?

19 A. I put it in this way, in this order, because they were together.

20 Q. I beg your pardon, please go on.

21 A. Together with the police -- I mean they operated together with the

22 police.

23 Q. We see from this table of yours that the Territorial Defence,

24 civil defence, and paramilitary forces are not subordinated to the police.

25 Is that right?

Page 1763

1 A. Then why did the police agree to act in cooperation with them?

2 This is my answer.

3 Q. Now I'm going to put to you the position of our Defence and you

4 tell me if I'm not right. The Territorial Defence, the civil defence, and

5 the paramilitaries are not part of the Ministry of the Interior, and the

6 Ministry of the Interior of Serbia cannot control in any way any one of

7 these organisations.

8 A. This is a diagram, so to say, which I drew based on what I saw on

9 the ground, who was acting with or separately.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Your diagram separates the MUP from the Territorial

11 Defence, the civil defence, and the paramilitaries.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have separated it here in this

13 diagram, but the fact is that they operated together.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: The question you're being asked is to confirm that

15 the Ministry of Interior had no authority to deal with Territorial

16 Defence, civil defence, and paramilitaries.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is how it should have been.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Nike, you actually do not have any police training. Isn't

22 that right?

23 A. That's true, but -- but I don't think there is any huge difference

24 between police and officers for the latter not to know some things.

25 Q. You do not know what the set-up of the MUP is, right?

Page 1764

1 A. I'm not interested in that.

2 Q. Thank you. You also don't know how the reporting lines operate

3 within the MUP, right?

4 A. To be brief, I was never interested in the communication they had

5 among themselves.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. LUKIC: Bear with me one second, Your Honours.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Now I'd like to move on to paragraph 26 of your statement.

11 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Excuse me, may I -- now, this has reference to

12 this question about his police training.

13 Did you have a proper military training?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In what sense do you mean, sir?

15 JUDGE CHOWHAN: In the sense that you went to an academy or a

16 place to take both military training and academics and in -- for combat.

17 Did you go to a school, military school?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I finished the school of military

19 reservists. I went to several courses.

20 JUDGE CHOWHAN: What prompted me to ask this question was you were

21 unable to tell how many tanks were there in a brigade. What would you

22 like to comment on that? Thank you.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was because that was not my

24 specialty. I was in the infantry division. I knew that, but for the

25 moment the exact figure didn't come to my mind. And instead of giving a

Page 1765

1 wrong answer, I would prefer to say I don't know.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. [Interpretation] You say in paragraph 26: "During the NATO

5 conflict regular VJ forces were concentrated along the line

6 Prizren-Djakovica-Pec. The deployments started before the conflict."

7 Until when did these deployments go on?

8 A. I don't know the exact time because I did not participate.

9 Q. The position of our Defence is that the deployment of forces

10 lasted throughout the war, primarily because of KLA attacks from Albania.

11 They were focussed on the municipality of Djakovica.

12 A. I didn't deny the fact that there was no deployment, but I said I

13 didn't participate in the process of deploying these forces.

14 Q. Thank you. I would now like to move on to paragraph 29 of your

15 statement. You say: MUP reservists were arriving in their own vehicles

16 and with their own weapons and they would leave with them when their tour

17 of duty had finished. Although we established that you did not have any

18 police training, I will tell you that the law [Realtime transcript read in

19 error "allow"] on the Ministry of the Interior allows a reserve policeman

20 to carry a weapon to work, from work. Are you saying that that's not

21 correct?

22 A. I am not denying that, but this is how I saw them. I have nothing

23 against that.

24 Q. Also a reserve policeman has the same authority that a regular

25 policeman has. Are you aware of that?

Page 1766

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In this same paragraph you say: At first it was the MUP that was

3 supposed to deal with the KLA. Did that task eventually wither away or

4 did the MUP have the task to fight the KLA?

5 A. It is a fact that MUP had the duty -- had the duty, whereas the

6 army's duty was to ensure protection or defence of the country from

7 abroad.

8 Q. Thank you. Also -- page 44, line 12 says "allow" instead

9 of "law."

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us proceed.

12 Q. In this same paragraph you say: "Before the war special buildings

13 were built for the MUP all over Kosovo. There were 400 MUP in the

14 Pristina barracks before the war."

15 A. That's true. Not only for Pristina, but also for Mitrovica,

16 Gjakova, Prizren.

17 Q. In actual fact, were these people put up in these barracks like

18 in --

19 A. They were situated in special buildings.

20 Q. That's right. These were not parts of barracks, right?

21 A. Within the confines of the barracks outside.

22 Q. But it was only people who were not from the area that were put up

23 there. They were staying there like in hotels for single people?

24 A. They were similar to our barracks. They were identical.

25 Q. These policemen, were they attached to the military?

Page 1767

1 A. No.

2 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 34 you say: "The head of the MUP in

3 Djakovica from about 1999 was Adamovic. When Colonel Kovacevic came from

4 Belgrade, first name unknown, he may have replaced Adamovic."

5 Do you know today what Adamovic's first name is?

6 A. No, I don't.

7 Q. Does that mean that you were not in contact with that person?

8 A. I contacted him once personally in MUP in Gjakova.

9 Q. You say that he may have been replaced by Kovacevic. Do you know

10 whether Kovacevic actually did replace him or not?

11 A. As far as I know, for some time he was sick, and I heard that

12 he -- his duty was taken over by Kovacevic.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: The next sentence says: "Kovacevic was in command

14 of the MUP units" --

15 MR. LUKIC: Outside Gjakova --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: -- "from outside Gjakova."

17 What does that actually mean -- did you say that? And if so,

18 could you tell me what it means?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that he commanded

20 the units that were deployed in Meja, Orize. This is what I wanted to

21 say.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. And who commanded the units in Djakovica?

25 A. The MUP units were commanded by the two persons I have mentioned

Page 1768

1 here.

2 Q. Are you trying to say that in the MUP of Djakovica there was a

3 dualism, there was dual command?

4 A. I am not saying that both persons commanded simultaneously. The

5 one who was in office for the moment had -- also carried out command

6 tasks. I said this since he was in duty as commander, that is Adamovic,

7 it was he that commanded. When the duty was taken over by Kovacevic, then

8 it was the latter that commanded. This is what I said. If he took over

9 that duty.

10 Q. Actually, Mr. Peraj, the police does not function on the basis of

11 orders at all; it functions on the basis of law. Are you aware of that?

12 A. I am aware that the police didn't act under orders. Didn't

13 function on the basis of regulations, that is.

14 Q. Do you know laws and bylaws regulating the functioning of the

15 police?

16 A. I don't know the laws and the bylaws. I don't know such things.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 A. But I know something else. If you allow me to say it.

19 Q. Now, from paragraph 40, and I'd like to look at the last sentence

20 of that paragraph. It's rather a long sentence, four lines in B/C/S. It

21 begins with "I think."

22 You say: "I think that the MUP provided automatic rifles and

23 ammunition to the paramilitaries and logistics support (the MUP got the

24 materiel from the VJ) but they were able to be fairly self-sufficient,

25 e.g." -- yes, that they were able to be self-sufficient."

Page 1769

1 Would you explain that chain to us. The army gives to the MUP,

2 and then the MUP supplies the paramilitaries. I haven't concluded my

3 question yet. What I want to ask you first is: What is your direct

4 knowledge? What did you take part in -- or what was your part in arming

5 the paramilitary units?

6 A. I did not take part, as you are putting it to me, in the armament

7 of paramilitaries.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... direct knowledge about that

9 portion of your statement, would that be right?

10 A. I say this because everywhere I've seen them acting they were

11 together.

12 Q. So you don't, in fact, know that the MUP supplied them with

13 weapons?

14 A. If they act together, it stands to logic that it provided them

15 with anything they wanted or needed.

16 Q. Mr. Peraj, I'm not looking for logic here; I'm asking you to

17 testify, to tell us what your knowledge of these events are. Do you have

18 that knowledge or do you not have that knowledge? Do you know about it or

19 not?

20 A. That's my opinion.

21 Q. But you had no knowledge of the matter?

22 A. I did not take part when they were supplied with that, and

23 probably they were supplied with it. Where could they have got bombs, for

24 example, or the substance to torch houses and such things? They were

25 together.

Page 1770

1 Q. Well, I'll take that, Mr. Peraj, as being your answer, that is to

2 say that you have no knowledge about this, either direct or indirect, but

3 that this was just summarising on your part. Am I right?

4 A. Take it the way you want.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, just briefly I'd like to dwell on a group that

6 you mentioned fairly frequently, Frenki's men or Frenki's group. What

7 contacts did you have with that particular unit?

8 A. They were very near to the place where we lived, together with the

9 members of the Territorial Defence of Gjakova, they stayed in -- in a

10 coffee shop near the army house.

11 Q. Yes, we have that in your statement. Thank you for giving us that

12 information. But what I was asking was this: What were your contacts

13 with that particular unit?

14 A. I didn't have any contacts or any relations with that unit, any

15 special relation.

16 Q. How did you learn their name, that they were called Frenki's men?

17 Did they call themselves Frenki's men or did you see any documents in

18 which this name Frenki's men was mentioned or anything like that?

19 A. They referred to themselves as such, but also the officers who

20 were with them referred to them by this name. Furthermore, Perovic,

21 Sergej Perovic, told me this.

22 Q. Perovic or Zivkovic?

23 A. I think we clarified that matter before.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. I mean about the question of names.

Page 1771

1 Q. Since we've mentioned those two names -- well, I won't mention

2 them. But you mentioned them quite openly, talking to Judge Tilpric

3 [phoen] in Belgrade without any request for protective measures of any

4 kind.

5 A. Yes, but I also showed why. Now the circumstances have changed.

6 Q. How have those circumstances changed? Have any of them gone back

7 to Kosovo?

8 A. I didn't ask for a private session for myself, and I will never do

9 that.

10 Q. I'm asking you about Belgrade. You testified quite openly there.

11 You didn't request any protective measures, testifying in closed session

12 or anything like that.

13 A. Did you ask any questions? I didn't hear any question.

14 Q. Is it true, was my question, that you didn't ask for any

15 protective measures in Belgrade, that you testified openly when you

16 changed the name from Zivkovic to this other name?

17 A. I don't get you. What do you want to say? I think I made it

18 clear. I specified why.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... since you've asked me to

20 explain, I'll put our position to you, the position of the Defence. You

21 were not in Meja at all, you didn't even try to go to Meja. You just

22 thought this up, and then you forgot what you told whom. Isn't that true?

23 You forgot what you said to which people?

24 A. What you are putting to me is not at all true, sir.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 1772

1 A. I'm telling you something else. In every check-point there were

2 police, paramilitaries, reservists, from the Territorial Defence local

3 police. And I want to tell this Court that I have travelled a lot to

4 Prizren, Strpce, Gniljane, Vranje, and I have seen in ten check-points I

5 was stopped -- at least in ten check-points while I was transporting

6 corpses.

7 Q. If you claim that you were in Meja --

8 A. On the road from Gjakova-Peje, in all these check-points I saw

9 policemen. The army didn't have a single check-point.

10 Q. What I want to ask you is this: I didn't -- I wasn't asking you

11 what you're telling me now. If you say that you were with someone else

12 and not with Zivkovic, you say that you did not disclose his name just

13 because he asked you not to. Isn't that right?

14 A. I explained to you that that man asked me in a very polite way not

15 to mention his name.

16 Q. Is it your testimony here today on oath, under declaration --

17 A. And that man gave a great assistance to many people. Had it been

18 for him, more than 40 persons wouldn't be alive today. This is why -- and

19 this is because I was afraid he would be in danger.

20 MR. LUKIC: Transcript line 6 on the 51st page the question has

21 not been finished, and I'll repeat it in Serbian so it can be properly

22 translated. I asked the witness:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Is it true and correct and is it your testimony

24 here today that you are ready to lie under oath if somebody asks you to do

25 so politely?

Page 1773

1 A. Firstly, I must say thank you for insulting me, thank you for

2 doing this in front of this Court. And my answer is this: I have not

3 come here to tell lies, as you are putting it. In Meja, 376 persons got

4 killed by Serb -- by Serbia, and they were put in mass graves from

5 Batajnica, from B2, 269 corpses have been brought so far. From Batajnica

6 five, B5 --

7 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... I would like to

8 advise the witness that we should move on.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 13 bodies. These are notes taken by

10 internationals, by the committee --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Peraj, we've had your answer insofar as you

12 want to give it to that last question. We'll move on to something else

13 now. Thank you.

14 Mr. Lukic.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Yes, let's move on, Mr. Peraj --

17 A. Your Honour, I wanted to say to you that this is a grave insult,

18 telling me that I am lying with regard to these dead bodies.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Peraj, it's part of the system that operates in

20 this Tribunal that persons may be accused of lying if there's a basis for

21 arguing that they are. And the foundation for the question was that you

22 had changed a name in a statement you gave and then maintained in -- after

23 you had taken the declaration here that your statement was accurate. And

24 then in cross-examination it was clarified that you had, in fact, changed

25 that name and you'd been asked to do so. And the question was: Is it the

Page 1774

1 case that you will lie, you will tell lies, if someone asks you nicely to

2 do so for them. That is what counsel asked.

3 Now, you've answered that question, but he wasn't insulting you.

4 He was putting the question to you on a basis that relied upon what you

5 had done in your statement. And you've right -- you've answered that by

6 saying: Well, I'm telling the truth about the incidents that I've given

7 evidence about here. And we note your answer, and we'll take account of

8 that and any criticism that's made in due course.

9 So we'll now move on to the next question. Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. [Interpretation] As His Honour has just said, it was not my

12 intention to insult you, but it is my duty to establish what you know and

13 what you do not know. So I'm principally interested in your direct

14 knowledge and not the conclusions drawn by you.

15 And while we're on the subject, would you please look at

16 paragraph 47 of your statement where you say that: "During the bombing

17 the Yugoslav army and MUP held meetings every day in the shadow

18 discotheque bar on Marsal Tito Street. It's now called Mother Teresa

19 Street, but they had separate HQs. Now, what I'm interested in is this:

20 Did you attend those meetings?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So you know nothing about what was discussed at those meetings,

23 would that be correct?

24 A. I know that at those meetings they discussed the daily situation,

25 the problems arising or that were to arise.

Page 1775

1 Q. Your knowledge linked to those meetings and the contents of those

2 meetings was only partial and comes from what Djosan told you from time to

3 time, isn't that right, and that's what you state in paragraph 49 of your

4 statement?

5 A. I heard from Djosan but also from another person with whom we were

6 together.

7 Q. You make no mention of anybody else. You just mentioned Djosan's

8 statement. So who is this other person that you mention now?

9 A. The other person is a Slovenian whose name I can't remember now,

10 the person who --

11 Q. The Slovene that you read his computer entries over his shoulder.

12 Is that right?

13 A. He always took part in those meetings. We discussed it quite

14 openly. There was no secret about them. For example, when people got

15 killed, he said: Such and such number of people got killed in such and

16 such a place. Or, for example, it is necessary to intervene or such

17 things. We discussed the supply --

18 Q. And is the name of that Slovene Vinter, Zdravko Vinter?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. In paragraph 49 you do not mention him at all in that group of

21 people who attend these meetings.

22 A. I didn't understand the question.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... 49, you refer to the persons

24 who attend these meetings. You refer to Momcilo Stanojevic, Major Nikola

25 Micunovic, Sreto Camovic, Miodrag Adamovic, Milos Djosan, but you never

Page 1776

1 mentioned that this meeting was attended by Vinter.

2 A. I may not have mentioned him, but I tell you in full

3 responsibility now that this person was present at those meetings and that

4 he took notes of what he should report afterwards for the measures to be

5 taken.

6 Q. Can we agree that you never mentioned Major Vinter to the

7 investigators of the OTP as someone who attended these meetings. Isn't

8 that right?

9 A. I am mentioning him now, and I take responsibility for my words.

10 Maybe I didn't deem it reasonable to mention his name.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Peraj, can you remind me what the letters here

13 ARBR stand for? In paragraph 47 you mention that you're marking on a plan

14 where the headquarters of the corps, then ARBR and MUP. What is ARBR?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the brigade. It's my brigade

16 where I was stationed.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

18 Now, Mr. Lukic, this is a suitable point I think to interrupt

19 and --

20 MR. LUKIC: Any point is good for a break, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall resume at 6.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1777

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Peraj, I'd like to draw your attention to

2 paragraph 58 now of your statement and in that paragraph you state the

3 following: "I recall that three or four days before the massacre in Meja,

4 Nikola Micunovic, also known as Dragan, told me that the valley of

5 Carragojs was going to pay a very high price. I immediately thought about

6 the killing of Milutin Prascevic that was committed on the 20th of April,

7 1999, in Meja. Prascevic used to be the chief of the state security in

8 Gjakova. Together with him four other people were killed. One of them

9 was the brother of a man named Sheqer, a local policeman from Ratish

10 village. Milutin Prascevic was the godfather of Nikola Micunovic, also

11 known as Dragan."

12 I'm now going to ask you this in a more indirect manner, I assume

13 that you know that MUP is divided into the public security sector and the

14 state security sector.

15 A. First of all, Milutin Prascevic was not the head of state

16 security. He was a lower inspector, just an inspector. And I know what

17 the difference between the two is.

18 Q. So that's an error there. It's not true that you said that

19 Prascevic used to be the head of the state security?

20 A. No, that's not right. The word "drzavni" is used here, "state."

21 It should be "inspector."

22 Q. All right. Thank you.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not -- the word "drzavni" means what?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Means -- it means "state."

25 JUDGE BONOMY: And there seems to be confusion then in the

Page 1778

1 translation, because you're saying you didn't call him chief of the state

2 security?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not head of state security. He was

4 an inspector.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: In state security or public security?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was an inspector for civil

7 affairs, civil affairs, not for state defence. He was a state inspector.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: There you have two separate matters that were

9 wrongly described in the statement, Mr. Lukic, so let's proceed.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. We can conclude then that Prascevic was a member of the public

12 security sector, not the state security. Is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You say that this man Prascevic, Milutin Prascevic, was the

15 godfather or best man to Nikola Micunovic. Would that be right?

16 A. Yes, that's right. Excuse me, he was a godfather, some sort of

17 relation like that.

18 Q. Now, in that same group with Prascevic, another person was killed,

19 the brother of a local policeman by the name of Sheqer.

20 I didn't hear your answer. The answer hasn't been recorded.

21 A. Well, please formulate a question. I'm not always sure that

22 you're making -- that you have a question for me.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the question?

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. When you refer to the brother of the local policeman, was that in

Page 1779

1 fact Naser Arifaj, member of the local security?

2 A. Together with Prascevic there was a local policeman who was killed

3 from the village of Ratish.

4 Q. So this member of the local security was an Albanian, was he not?

5 A. Yes, he was. Yes, I repeat, I said yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, you say linked to that an informal meeting was

7 held, right? In paragraph 59, that's what you go on to say.

8 A. Is that a question?

9 Q. Yes. Is it linked to the Prascevic killing -- or rather, linked

10 to the Prascevic killing was an informal meeting held, as you state in

11 paragraph 59, that an informal meeting was held linked to that matter?

12 A. No, no. It was -- it took part in the funeral of Prascevic.

13 People had gathered there. The people met there to go to the funeral of

14 Prascevic.

15 Q. Very well. But in paragraph 62 you say that you were at a meeting

16 when the Meja massacre was planned.

17 A. They were standing there when they were talking.

18 Q. Local people attended Prascevic's funeral. Isn't that right?

19 A. I didn't take part personally. I just heard that they were there,

20 that the policemen were there, military people.

21 Q. And you heard that this group planned the massacre in Meja. Isn't

22 that right?

23 A. During a brief meeting, Colonel Stojanovic, who isn't mentioned

24 here in the statement, I expressed -- he expressed his condolences --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

Page 1780

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I expressed my condolences. And

2 when he spoke to Kovacevic he said that measures ought to be taken, that

3 the whole valley should be burnt to ashes and destroyed, and that at least

4 100 people should be executed, should be killed. And at that moment I

5 thought they had gone crazy. I thought he was a hot head, that it was the

6 pain he was suffering, and I didn't pay any further attention to the

7 remark. But the person who was with Kovacevic said: We need

8 authorisation for that. And the other fellow said: I will arrange that

9 with Pavkovic. I will regulate that with Pavkovic.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. But you do not know whether that person ever contacted Pavkovic,

12 right?

13 A. I don't know if they contacted him, and even today I cannot

14 understand how he could have said such a thing. But unfortunately on the

15 27th of April, 1999, it happened.

16 Q. This group of people, as you explain in paragraphs 58, 59, 60, 61,

17 and 62, was in fact a group of local people, and this group alone

18 organised everything that happened in Meja. Isn't that right?

19 A. I said -- I told you what was said at the time at that meeting. I

20 don't know if those people actually took part personally in the incident.

21 And I don't believe they did.

22 Q. Were they powerful enough to organise paramilitary units and to

23 abuse the action of the army and the police in the Carragojs valley?

24 A. It's possible. I said I don't know how someone so high could give

25 such an order, such an order I've -- I can't conceive of it.

Page 1781

1 Q. Well, that is precisely my question.

2 A. So it could be the other way, what you're saying.

3 Q. But you have no knowledge to the effect that these people asked

4 for any kind of permission from anyone?

5 A. No, I don't know whether he got authorisation. I just know what

6 was said there, what I heard.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. And I know what I saw in Meja with my own eyes.

9 Q. These 100 people that you mention is in fact something that during

10 this period of sadness was called out by the women who attended

11 Prascevic's funeral?

12 A. I was told -- or two women, that women were lamenting, not

13 singing. And during the lament the women keened and said that 50 should

14 go, 100 should go, 100, more than that should go while they were keening.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. 200, 300 should -- should go and keen together, all the women.

17 Not the women, it's the women who keened for Prascevic. And they

18 lamented, saying that 2 or 300 people should be killed, heads should be

19 cut, that the head of Prascevic was worth that many heads.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Peraj. Was that in fact that additional pressure

21 which set into motion the local people and prompted them to organise

22 retribution in the Carragojs valley or Meja?

23 A. In my opinion, I wouldn't reject this possibility.

24 Q. Thank you. The next thing that I want to ask you about is

25 something that is contained in paragraph 64. You speak about a map and

Page 1782

1 you just say: "The map entitled 'Operation Meja.'" So who gave this map

2 a name? Who called it "Operation Meja"?

3 A. It was I -- I called it that way to make it clear exactly where

4 the operation -- what took place.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. I wanted a more specific location to be mentioned.

7 Q. On that map you say that on the 27th, or by the 27th special

8 police units and the Army of Yugoslavia went to a certain point, up to a

9 certain point. However, in your testimony, I see no change on the 28th

10 either.

11 A. The same unit on the 27th arrived at the same line, at that line,

12 and they spent the night there. And they continued on on the 28th of

13 April, 1999, it's the same unit.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. Same units.

16 Q. Now, when we speak about -- just a moment. The special police

17 brigade, do you know which brigade that is?

18 A. One was from Serbia and I saw them with my own eyes; they were of

19 a special unit. I met them in Nec.

20 Q. What you want to say is that that special police unit came for

21 that occasion from Serbia. Is that what you mean?

22 A. No, no. They were probably present somewhere near Gjakova.

23 Q. You say "probably," so you're not quite sure.

24 A. I didn't ever meet them up until the 28th. Maybe it's not

25 important to you for this trial.

Page 1783

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. But in Duznje was their command, and they gave us beer. They gave

3 beer to me and to someone who was with me, (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Sabbah, I think we should --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He's like a brother to me.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: We should redact from the words "this" in line 16,

16 all right, down to line 1 on page 62.

17 Now, while we're on this subject, Mr. Lukic, you introduced it in

18 the context of asking questions about something that happened in Belgrade,

19 and it's on page 15 of the transcript -- 50, page 50 of the transcript,

20 sorry.

21 MR. LUKIC: That can be redacted as well, as we are concerned.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no, but I want to ask you a question about

23 that. When -- when did Mr. Peraj testify in Belgrade?

24 MR. LUKIC: He testified here in Den Haag in front of the

25 investigating judge of the district court from Belgrade.

Page 1784

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, so a judge from -- a judge from Belgrade came

2 to The Hague?

3 MR. LUKIC: That's right, yes, as I'm concerned.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I now understand that.

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on, please, Mr. Lukic.

7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. [Interpretation] In paragraph 66, in the last sentence, you

9 say: "There were paramilitaries in Meja. The paramilitary units were in

10 Meja." Is that correct?

11 A. [No interpretation].

12 Q. Thank you.

13 [In English] Actually, there is no interpretation of the answer.

14 I think that the witness said "yes."

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. [Interpretation] I'm trying to skip over as many paragraphs as

17 possible so that we would conclude by the end of the day, since my

18 colleagues have already questioned you in detail about a great many

19 things.

20 In paragraph 87 you refer to the head of a commission that was in

21 charge of cleansing the area and collecting bodies after military

22 operations. You say that this was a man by the name of Nexha. He issued

23 orders to VJ Major Ljubisa Zivkovic and to Zivko Vuksanovic. You say that

24 Nexha did not wear a uniform.

25 A. That's not a question of military orders here. Nexha, I

Page 1785

1 remembered later his name was Nedeljko. And this person was in Gjakova

2 for a long time, even before the war, and he worked there as a sanitary

3 inspector. And then he was a superior sanitary inspector, not as low as

4 he'd been originally, a senior inspector. And in the commission for the

5 cleansing of the area, these other two people were members of the

6 commission, too. And aside from the people, aside from the people there

7 were also animals which had to be cleansed, cattle, carcasses of dead

8 animals which had to be transported and brought away. And I said that

9 these people should know -- should have -- would have known where the

10 bodies were buried because they were members of the commission.

11 Q. Sorry for interrupting. I asked you this because I didn't find it

12 clear.


14 MR. LUKIC: Sorry.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: -- Peraj, just one other thing. Answer this yes or

16 no only: Is that the same Zivkovic as is referred to in paragraph 85?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It's the --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: That's all I need to know, yes or no, and the

19 answer is no. Thank you.

20 Mr. Lukic, thank you.

21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Peraj, now I would kindly ask you to look at

23 paragraph 104 of your 89(F) statement, the part that has to do with the

24 KLA. In paragraph 104 you say - I'm referring to the second

25 sentence - "the KLA forces left Djakovica and went to the mountains. In

Page 1786

1 my opinion, these forces left the city ... The KLA would carry out

2 sporadic actions against the Serbian forces. Their action was a sort of

3 not organised guerilla."

4 On the basis of this paragraph it was my conclusion at least - and

5 now you tell me whether you agree or not - it is your assertion that the

6 KLA forces got out of town but remained in the territory of the

7 municipality of Djakovica.

8 A. The forces were not in the city; they were -- or if they were

9 around, they would have been very few, one or two. They left the city and

10 most of them were around Gjakova. And from there they went into the hills

11 or mountains, as I said, away from Gjakova. And most of them went to

12 Albania because there were -- there was a large concentration of forces

13 around Gjakova and they knew well that they would not have success there.

14 And the incidents which happened, or the incident where the policeman was

15 killed earlier, that could have been committed by two or a maximum of

16 three people who could move freely around and hide in various locations.

17 So it would have been a tiny group, I don't think it was anything

18 organised. But they decided to undertake such actions.

19 Q. Is it your testimony that the KLA was actually not an army but

20 rather individuals who just carried out terrorist actions every now and

21 then?

22 A. There were not large groups of them. I don't think they would

23 have had any chance to fight against such large numbers of troops.

24 Q. Is it your testimony today that they did not behave like an army,

25 they did not wear uniforms? Quite a few of them moved about in civilian

Page 1787

1 clothing.

2 A. Well, logically they could have been in civilian clothes, too.

3 Q. Do you know whether they observed the rules of warfare?

4 A. As far as I know -- I don't know quite what to say. I wasn't with

5 them. I can't tell you.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: That's an impossible question for anyone to answer.

7 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I was seeking the clarification from the

8 witness as a military person. Maybe he was in close contact.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, he's answered it.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

11 Q. [Interpretation] As for your next paragraph, 105, we see that

12 there is a KLA presence in your native village, the 137th Brigade of the

13 KLA at that. Today you said to me at a certain point that they were not

14 there but that they came from somewhere. Where did that unit come from?

15 A. That unit, as far as I know, penetrated in from Albania. At that

16 time talks were being held in Kumanova, and they were being finalised,

17 these talks. And some decisions had been taken.

18 Q. Let me ask you something. Do you know what kind of decisions were

19 made, and you said that you warned them. How? How did you find out, in

20 what way, that this 137th Brigade was in Ramoc?

21 A. Firstly I heard from Dragan Pejkovic, who worked at the post

22 office. He was also a guard for the post office building. He wore a

23 uniform. His son was a normal policeman of the MUP, of the normal MUP,

24 and told me that that night [as interpreted] and the next night, if my son

25 survives --

Page 1788

1 It should say "day" rather than "night."

2 There would be no more problems. And he told -- he spoke to his

3 son and asked whether the son would be taking part. Dragan asked me

4 whether I would be involved, and I said that I had not yet heard anything.

5 Q. What was it that you were supposed to be involved in? Sorry, I

6 did not quite understand.

7 A. He asked me: Are you going to be involved in this action?

8 Q. Action against the 137th Brigade of the KLA. Is that what you

9 mean?

10 A. Yes. In the action against the 137th Brigade.

11 Q. Yes, yes, that was my understanding. Perhaps I made an omission.

12 Who was this Dragan who asked you?

13 A. Dragan Pejkovic.

14 Q. A guard in front of the post office asked you whether you would

15 take part in action against the KLA in the village of Ramoc. Is that your

16 testimony?

17 A. I think you're trying to confuse the matter. It's not the way --

18 that way.

19 Q. Could you explain to me then how this actually happened.

20 A. Dragan is my neighbour. He lives in the same place.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on. Have we not had a very full explanation

22 that Dragan's son was a member of the MUP. He was concerned about him and

23 asked this witness if he was likely to be involved in the operation. It's

24 pretty -- unless there's something subtle in what you're trying to achieve

25 here, it seems pretty clear to me.

Page 1789

1 MR. LUKIC: Maybe it's my fault, Your Honour, but I -- I cannot

2 understand that the guard in front of the post office warns the military

3 personnel about the possible action, military action. That's what was

4 confusing for me.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, he had learned -- according to him, he had

6 learned about it from his son.

7 MR. LUKIC: Okay. I'll leave it there.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Or in fact learned about it indirectly from his

9 son, in fact.

10 MR. LUKIC: I'll leave it there. Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may continue, I can prove --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not necessary to continue, Mr. Peraj.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. From Albania, as you said just now, or was it KLA presence? They

15 were constantly on the ground in the Carragojs valley. Can we therefore

16 conclude that the presence of these forces was constant in the area?

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. What about the attacks then against civilians, policemen, and

19 soldiers, were they carried out by the local people who were not members

20 of the KLA? Is that your testimony today?

21 A. No, no, that's not right either. There could have been members of

22 the KLA around who conducted such actions and then withdrew swiftly. They

23 withdrew to secure locations because they were not prepared for a full

24 frontal war.

25 Q. That's exactly what I've been asking you. My point is not their

Page 1790

1 strength but their constant presence in the area, regardless of what their

2 actual strength was. We are going to investigate that in different ways.

3 Do you have any knowledge about the KLA being constantly present in the

4 Carragojs valley from January until June 1999?

5 A. No --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: The witness has answered that question. It's in

7 his statement and he's just answered it already, and there's no point in

8 asking it yet again.

9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on. I just want to

10 finish it. Maybe I'm a bit tired, so I'm not that concentrated.

11 Q. [Interpretation] When you talk about the action in Meja before the

12 killings actually took place, was this a legitimate military action or

13 movement of forces, bearing in mind the fighting on the border between the

14 KLA and the forces of Serbia?

15 A. In Lugu i Carragojs there was never any fighting between the KLA

16 and military and police forces.

17 Q. Haven't we already established that there were constant terrorist

18 attacks by small groups in that area aimed against civilians, against the

19 police, and against the military in the period from January until June

20 1999?

21 A. I said that there were such -- there were special actions. The

22 word "constant" would mean every day without interruption, and that's not

23 right.

24 Q. For example, I allow for a particular possibility that it did

25 happen every day, but I'm not saying it happened every day. But we are

Page 1791

1 not going to establish the actual intensity now throughout this period.

2 I'm sorry. Had you given an answer to my previous question?

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, your question is posed on the basis that

4 there was fighting on the border between the KLA and the forces of Serbia,

5 and that to the witness sounds like open fighting between two sets of

6 armed forces. And he's saying there was never any fighting between the

7 KLA and the military and police forces. So that's the answer to your

8 question.

9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. [Interpretation] I'm going to phrase my question this way now.

11 Constant terrorist attacks that occurred from time to time in the

12 Carragojs valley from January until June 1999, were they, in your opinion,

13 sufficient reason for military action, yes or no, you tell me?

14 A. I only know of two occasions, which I mentioned earlier. Before

15 Prascevic was killed, Vojislav Pejkovic was killed near the village of

16 Racaj. Later Prascevic and four other policemen were killed, and -- I

17 know that because I live in Dallashaj, and I know there was no other

18 action in that region. I know that.

19 Q. Wasn't Pjetar Njera [phoen] attacked at home by 15 KLA members,

20 otherwise he was a member of the local security?

21 A. I didn't mention him, and after that event I intervened -- I was

22 first to intervene. He wasn't killed.

23 Q. He managed to repel the KLA attack, right?

24 A. I don't know. It's possible. I don't contest that.

25 Q. Do you know that Catholic clergymen reached an agreement with the

Page 1792

1 Serb authorities that they themselves would remove the population from

2 regions where there was fighting to safer areas?

3 A. No, I don't know about that.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. LUKIC: Just one second, please.

6 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. I asked you this about the Catholic clergymen and the removals of

9 population because you mentioned that - or at least that's the way we have

10 it recorded - in your telephone conversation with the OTP. Did you

11 actually say that in actual fact to them or not?

12 A. I said that, but that's not the same as what you're saying.

13 Q. We have one minute. If you could just finish, that would be my

14 last question.

15 A. [Previous translation continues] ... but one of the Catholic

16 priests accompanied the convoy from Gjakova to the Albanian border through

17 Prizren by foot, going past the police in Bistrazin and said -- he said:

18 Kill me if you want. These are my people, my Albanians. And in fact most

19 of the people in the convoy were Muslims, not Catholic.

20 Q. I'm sorry. That's not the way it was recorded in your statement.

21 It only says that you said that Catholic priests had contacted the Serb

22 authorities in order to protect their villages; however, one Catholic

23 priest, Marijan from Djakovica, took away a group of Kosovo Albanians to a

24 safe place.

25 A. It is true, but you said to expel them. They didn't want to be

Page 1793

1 expelled.

2 Q. No, no, I just asked you whether it was a fact that the priests,

3 in agreement with the Serb authorities, got the population out of

4 endangered areas.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: The translation of the question used the

6 word "removed," and it may be that that led to a misunderstanding of what

7 the question involved or implicated. But the witness has now made it

8 clear he did know of the arrangement and he's indicated how it was

9 implemented by one particular priest.

10 MR. LUKIC: This was my last question, Your Honour, and I thank

11 you for your patience.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I apologise to you, Mr. Peraj, as well. Thank you for having

15 answered my questions, and I do apologise if you thought that I was

16 insulting you. That was not my intention.

17 A. Thank you, too. You're welcome.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Stamp, will there be some re-examination?

19 MR. STAMP: [Microphone not activated].

20 JUDGE BONOMY: How long do you anticipate it being?

21 MR. STAMP: Approximately 10 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE BONOMY: We are in a situation where another 15 minutes or

25 so would finish the evidence of this witness. Can I ask the

Page 1794

1 interpretation booth if that creates a problem?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Up to 15 minutes would be all right.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. So we'll carry on and see if we can

4 finish. Now, if we can't, then we'll simply adjourn until tomorrow when

5 the 15 minutes are expired, at quarter past 7.00 at the outside. But

6 you're not to be under pressure, Mr. Stamp. If it takes longer, it takes

7 longer, and the witness will come back tomorrow.

8 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Re-examination by Mr. Stamp:

10 Q. Yesterday you were asked about going down to a basement where you

11 saw the commander, General Lazarevic, and it was put to you that General

12 Lazarevic was not there. What I'd like to ask you is this: When you saw

13 General Lazarevic in the basement, how far was he from you when you saw

14 him?

15 A. Not more than three or four metres.

16 Q. Now, you said that you could see some of what was written on the

17 map which was on the wall, so can I take it from that that there was light

18 down there in the basement?

19 A. Yes, there was electricity there.

20 Q. Now, you said that Jeftovic said that he was sorry that your

21 family had been expelled. Did you say anything -- or what, if anything,

22 did you say to Jeftovic which caused him to say that to you?

23 A. I told him that my family was being sheltered in my house.

24 Q. Did you tell him what had happened to your family?

25 A. The other person who was with me told him.

Page 1795

1 Q. And when -- when you told him that, could General Lazarevic have

2 heard what would -- sorry, I beg your pardon. Question withdrawn.

3 When he was told that by the other person, was General Lazarevic

4 in a position that he could have heard this conversation?

5 A. I don't think he would have been in a position because of the

6 radio communications he was involved in.

7 Q. Very well. Now, I'm asking you for an estimate, an approximation

8 of time. About how long would you have had the opportunity to see General

9 Lazarevic in the basement? Just give us your best estimate.

10 A. I would say five or six minutes I was there in the basement.

11 Q. Now, it was suggested to you that when questioned by His Honour

12 Judge Kwon in the Milosevic case you indicated that you could not recall

13 seeing General Lazarevic there, and that is the Milosevic case.

14 I'd like to read something to you from your testimony in the

15 Milosevic and ask you if you said that, and I'm referring to transcript

16 page 4724 to 4725. The question: "That is to say the commander of the

17 corps commanded some operations against the civilian population of a

18 village. Is that your assertion as an army officer?"

19 This is your answer: "It is not the question of one village but

20 of various villages of Reka e Keqe and Carragojs valley, and I mentioned

21 in my statement, please, that the operation was led by General Lazarevic

22 from Gjakova. General Kotur and Colonel Stankovic were in the field as

23 well as the police officers from the village of Duznje."

24 Do you remember saying that?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters did not hear the reply.

Page 1796

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you give your answer again there, please,

2 Mr. Peraj. What was your answer to that question?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the answer to the last question I

4 said "yes."

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


7 Q. I think it's pretty obviously by now, Mr. Peraj, but just so -- to

8 be clear your family and your brothers lived in the Dallashaj village and

9 that is in the Carragojs valley?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You were asked some questions about your cousin Pal Gjoklaj, who

12 was present during your -- the statement that you were -- during your

13 first statement I think the question was. Can you tell me what -- and you

14 said he was there -- I think you said that he was there in respect to

15 interpretation. What languages does your cousin speak, that is -- I beg

16 your pardon, what languages does Pal Gjoklaj speak?

17 A. Albanian, Serbian, and he studied English. He was a teacher. He

18 was a professor -- he was a teacher of English.

19 Q. Now, in light of that, how did he come to be at the occasion where

20 that statement was taken?

21 A. He is the brother of my wife, and I called him over.

22 Q. Briefly, if you can in a sentence, in one sentence, tell us why

23 you called him over.

24 A. When they told me they were coming to take a statement, I called

25 him over so that he could be there for any possible needs I might have.

Page 1797

1 And he accepted to come over and be present, even though there was an

2 official interpreter with the people who came.

3 Q. The person who took your statement on both occasions, you called

4 him a couple times, that is Paolo Stocchi?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know what his mother tongue is?

7 A. I think he is an Italian, and he spoke English quite well. I

8 don't know English myself, but as far as I could judge.

9 Q. You were asked questions about your knowledge of the MUP in

10 Djakovica. Firstly, you said in evidence, also in your statement, that

11 Scepanovic who was manning one of the check-points of people where you saw

12 these bodies was a MUP officer. Did you know him before and did you know

13 him to be a MUP officer before?

14 A. I didn't have any contact with him, but he worked in Pristina.

15 But the person who was with me, he said that that was his name, and that's

16 how he presented him. And I recognised him. I'd seen him in Gjakova a

17 couple of times and I knew that he worked for the MUP. I recognised him.

18 Q. The other officer you described as a MUP inspector, Dimitrij

19 Racovic [phoen] and you said he's from the village of Piskote. Did you

20 know him before, and did you know him to be an officer of the MUP before?

21 A. Yes, because he was born in my village, Dallashaj.

22 Q. And he was the one in charge of the check-point in front of the

23 Sokolaj store just opposite the school. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think that's time, Mr. Stamp. Do you want

Page 1798

1 the witness to come back tomorrow?

2 MR. STAMP: I think perhaps that's -- that would be the best

3 option.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, all right. That's unfortunate but there we

5 are.

6 We've done our best, Mr. Peraj, to try to finish your evidence

7 today, but we've not quite reached that stage. We're close, though.

8 We're hitting the cross-bar but we haven't quite scored. So you'll have

9 to come back tomorrow, and no doubt that will be a brief re-appearance

10 here. But please bear in mind what I said to you yesterday not to discuss

11 your evidence with anyone until it's completed while you're there. And

12 we'll see you again tomorrow at 2.15.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've been here from the 7th already,

14 so it's no problem.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, thank you. We'll see you

16 tomorrow.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.15 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of

19 August, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.