1 Friday, 18 August 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Hannis, just a comment about yesterday
6 afternoon before we proceed today.
7 The Trial Chamber has carefully reviewed the evidence of
8 Mrs. Rrahmani, and having done so can see that the way in which this was
9 presented was clearly aimed at clarifying the identity of armed groups
10 whom the witness observed, and in the opinion of the Trial Chamber, it is
11 perfectly appropriate to present a statement and to seek clarification of
12 parts of the statement or even to seek to emphasise parts of the
13 statement, and it's also appropriate to bring out new material from a
14 witness if proper notification of that material has been given to the
16 However, it won't serve the purpose of clarifying the evidence in
17 a written statement if the Chamber have difficulty following the way in
18 which it sought to present the clarification, and we did think we had
19 already made it clear that we would like you to identify the parts of the
20 statement to which the clarification that's being sought relates, and I
21 think that was the problem yesterday, that we weren't kept abreast of the
22 progress that was being made through the statement.
23 It is important to bear in mind that you know your case much
24 better than we do, and we would be grateful if in future you could assist
25 us and those working with you could assist us by identifying the parts of
1 the statement to which the questions are directed. In the end of the day,
2 it took much more effort than should be necessary to see that what you
3 were doing was a perfectly reasonable and proper exercise of the time that
4 you have to lead evidence viva voce.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 MR. HANNIS: I thank you for those remarks, Your Honour, and we'll
7 be guided by that.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, who is the next witness, Mr. Hannis.
9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, our next witness is Sadije Sadiku.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Sadiku, could you please make the solemn
11 declaration by reading allowed the document which has been placed in front
12 of you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: SADIJE SADIKU
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Ms. Sadiku, the Chamber already have a
18 statement in writing which you previously gave. Now we're at the stage
19 where we are going to hear further evidence from you in answer to
20 questions that will be put by counsel for the Prosecution and for the
22 It's very important when dealing with these questions for you to
23 concentrate on the question that is being asked and to answer that
24 particular question, because we already have a very full account of your
25 evidence before us, and what parties are trying to do is identify parts
1 that they either wish more information about or that they may wish to
2 challenge. And don't be surprised if someone challenges your evidence
3 because that's just part of the process that's followed in this Tribunal
4 to try to seek out -- to seek out the truth, which is the job we are
5 trying to do. So please bear with the system, face up to the questions,
6 and answer each specific question put to you as briefly as you possibly
8 The first counsel to ask questions of you will be, on behalf of
9 the Prosecution, Mr. Hannis.
10 Mr. Hannis.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Examination by Mr. Hannis:
13 Q. Good afternoon. Would you state for the record, please, your
15 A. Yes. My name is Sadije Sadiku.
16 Q. And Ms. Sadiku, you are an Albanian Muslim born in Mitrovica in
17 1978, and you were raised in the Kosovo Albanian village of Zhabar; is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honours, I should indicate that we're
21 proceeding this witness as an 89(F) witness, and at this time I would like
22 to pull up Exhibit P2256 and hand the witness hard copy of that statement.
23 Q. Ms. Sadiku, could you take a look at that document in front of you
24 and tell us whether or not you recognise it?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Is that a statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor
2 earlier this week?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you confirm for the Judges that -- whether or not that
5 statement is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I would tender 2256 at this time.
9 Q. Ms. Sadiku --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, this is a statement which plainly falls
11 within the provisions of 89(F). The Chamber's already indicated that it
12 welcomes this approach to the presentation of evidence, and this becomes
13 part of the record in the case, Mr. Hannis.
14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Ms. Sadiku, your village was located very near the town of
16 Mitrovica in Mitrovica municipality?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How big a town was that, or village, approximately?
19 A. It had about 5, 600 houses.
20 Q. Now, your written statement, as the Judge just said, will be part
21 of the evidence in this case, so I want to quickly take you through your
23 In paragraph 11, you talk about how on the 13th of April, 1999,
24 police started to expel villagers and burn houses in one end of the
25 village. How did you know about that at the time? Did you see it
1 yourself or did you hear it?
2 A. I saw it with my own eyes.
3 Q. And what did you and your family do when you realised this was
5 A. As soon as we saw that they started to torch the houses, we left
6 our home and went to the mountain.
7 Q. And in your statement you tell us you spent the night out in the
8 cold and rain, and the next morning, on the 14th, you returned to your
9 house; in paragraphs 13 and 14. Why did you go back to your house on
10 the 14th? Weren't you worried about the police?
11 A. Even though we were worried about the police and it was very cold
12 and raining, we had to go back because there was nothing we had to eat,
13 that's why.
14 Q. And you describe then what happened on that morning. The police
15 kicked you out at gunpoint, telling you if you didn't leave in five
16 minutes they would kill you. Did they tell you why you had to leave your
18 A. When they entered our home, they shot -- they fired -- excuse me.
19 They trained their arms at us and told us to leave the house in five
20 minutes and leave also Kosovo.
21 Q. Did --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you going to try again on that question?
23 MR. HANNIS: I am, Your Honour.
24 Q. But did they give you explanation about why you had to leave? Did
25 they tell you why?
1 A. No, they didn't tell us why we had to leave the houses, but they
2 threatened us, and we didn't dare remain there any longer.
3 Q. Now, in paragraphs 16 through 20 of your statement, you describe
4 how you were part of a column of approximately 8.000 people and how you
5 were walking for two days and nights to get to Klina e Eperme. What was
6 the ethnicity of those people in your column of 8.000?
7 A. Generally Albanian.
8 Q. You say generally Albanians. Do you know what the other people
9 were who were not Albanians in that group?
10 A. Can you please repeat the question?
11 Q. The answer appears on the transcript as, "Generally Albanians."
12 Does that mean that there were some non-Albanians in that group of 8.000?
13 A. As far as our convoy where I was, all of us were Albanians, people
14 from Kosova.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, when you left in that convoy, did you know
16 where you were going to go?
17 A. No. No, we didn't know. That was the first time for me to travel
18 in that road.
19 Q. Did you know what was going to happen to you?
20 A. No.
21 MR. HANNIS: Now, if we could -- I would like to put up a map.
22 It's Exhibit P39.
23 Q. Ms. Sadiku, I don't know if you can see this on your screen.
24 A. No. Now, yes.
25 Q. I'm sorry, could we scroll up and to the right. Near the top of
1 that map, can you see -- if we zoom in a little bit, can you see where
2 your village is located?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And where did you go when you left that morning, the 14th of
5 April? Do you remember the first place you went?
6 A. Yes. This is Shipol here.
7 Q. And then in your statement you say after going to Shipol you went
8 on toward Klina e Eperme, and the men joined you at a location called
9 Lushta, if I'm pronouncing that correctly.
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. There's a pen on the table in front of you I think you can use to
12 draw on the map in front of you. I'll have the usher help you. If you
13 could for the Judges, first of all could you draw a circle around your
14 home village of Zhabar.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Next if you could draw a circle around Shipol.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then Lushta where the men joined you.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, if we could scroll up on the map and over to the left. Oh,
21 I'm sorry. Do I need to take a screen shot of this one --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
23 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. Before we do that, could we take a screen
24 shot of this and have this marked as the next IC.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC9, Your Honours.
1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
2 Q. Now, could we scroll up on this map and move slightly to the left.
3 Or I guess -- I'm sorry, scroll down and move slightly to the left.
4 Ms. Sadiku, if you'd bear with me for a moment.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And from -- from there where did you end up after two days and
7 nights of walking? The name of the town?
8 A. After two days and nights of walking, we arrived in Klina e Begut.
9 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear your answer.
10 A. We arrived in Klina e Begut.
11 Q. In your statement I have it written down as Klina e Eperme. Are
12 they the same thing?
13 A. No. No, they are two different places. Klina e Eperme is near
14 Skenderaj. Klina e Begut is another place.
15 Q. Are you able to locate that on this map?
16 A. I see here only Klina e Mesme which is in the vicinity of
17 Skenderaj. We arrived here at this place, Klina e Mesme. I don't see
18 Klina e Begut in this map.
19 Q. Is Klina e Mesme near -- I'm sorry, the location you named, is it
20 close to any location you can see on the map in front of you? If you
22 A. It is difficult to find things on a map, because for me, as I
23 said, it was the first time to pass through that place. That's why it's
24 difficult to pinpoint it in the map.
25 Q. That's all right. We'll pass on that. I won't ask you to make
1 any marks on that map, then.
2 If we could show --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, there's some uncertainty, though, about
4 that answer, because while it rules out Klina e Eperme, there was
5 reference to Klina e Mesme, and it says, "We arrived here at this place,
6 Klina e Mesme, I don't see on this map."
7 Now that's confusing, because Klina e Mesme is on the map, and
8 it's not clear to me that the witness wants to say she went there. Could
9 we have that clarified and then find out in which direction from her home
10 the place is that she actually went to.
11 MR. HANNIS: I will try, Your Honour, and I guess I misheard the
12 answer about Klina e Mesme.
13 Q. First of all, Ms. Sadiku, can you tell us whether or not you
14 arrived at Klina e Mesme at any time during this trip?
15 A. Yes, yes, we did.
16 Q. Okay. And was that before or after you reached the location that
17 you've now described as Kline e Begut?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I'm sorry, was it before you reached it or after you reached
20 Kline e Begut?
21 A. Before we went to Kline e Begut, there is Klina e Mesme.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: That's much clearer. Thank you.
23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
24 Q. Now, if we could go and show you Exhibit P32. And if we could
25 zoom in on the area south of Istok. A little farther to the right. I'm
1 sorry. Yes, scroll up. A little further. Thank you. And zoom in in
2 that bottom right corner. Thank you.
3 In your statement, in paragraph 20, again it makes reference to a
4 location called Klina e Eperme. Did you go through or stop at a location
5 known as Klina e Eperme?
6 A. No. We were in a convoy, a long convoy of people when we went
7 through the Klina e Eperme.
8 Q. The convoy did go through that area; is that correct?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. And in your statement in page [sic] 20 you say that's the location
11 where the column was divided, with some 2.000 of the people being told to
12 go back, and you and the remaining 6.000 were to continue onwards; is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Where did you and your group of 6.000 go to then after the convoy
16 was split? What's the next location you remember the name of?
17 A. No, I don't remember.
18 Q. Do you need to look at your statement to refresh your memory about
19 the name of the location?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If at any time you need to do that, please let us know that you're
22 looking at that document instead of talking about from what's inside your
24 Have you had a chance?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And does that --
2 A. Now, yes.
3 Q. And does that refresh your memory about where you went next?
4 A. Yes. We went in the direction of Peja.
5 Q. And in paragraph 21 and 22, you tell us about where you stayed on
6 the third night of your exodus out of Kosovo, where you were finally
7 allowed to rest, and paragraph 22, you describe how the next morning you
8 continued towards a village called Zablace, if I'm pronouncing that
10 Can you tell us -- well, first of all, can you look at the map
11 that's on the screen in front of you now.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are you able to see the village of Zabac on that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Could you use the pen again and draw a circle around Zabac.
16 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, could we scroll up a little bit before I
17 have her mark on that because there's another location we'd like to
18 include. Yes. Thank you.
19 Q. First of all, could you draw a circle around Zabac.
20 A. [Marks].
21 Q. Now, in paragraph 23 of your statement, Ms. Sadiku, you tell us
22 how your group of about 6.000 were told by the police to make
23 accommodation in that village. Was there anyone already living there when
24 you arrived at that location?
25 A. No. There were no people there, only shelled houses, but no
2 Q. And you tell us in your statement that -- in paragraphs 23 and 24,
3 how the police told you to stay there until further notice and that you
4 had to try to arrange yourself as best you could in those deserted houses.
5 In paragraphs 32 to 39 -- I'm sorry. Let me stop there for a
7 During those three weeks, what did you live on in terms of food?
8 A. During these three weeks we had nothing to eat other than some
9 potatoes we could find.
10 Q. And then at the end of three weeks, on the 6th of May, could you
11 just briefly tell the Judges what happened to you that day?
12 A. On the 6th of May, at 8.00 in the morning, I left the house where
13 we were staying and went out to find something to eat. I was together
14 with some other friends. We went, got the food, and came back. On the
15 way back, I was together with a friend and we were carrying a sack. At
16 that moment, we felt tired because the sack was very heavy, and my friend
17 said, "Let's exchange hands." And I wanted to turn back and catch the
18 sack with the other hand, but at that moment I felt a pain on my back and
19 fell down on the ground.
20 Q. And then what happened?
21 A. My friend left me crying, and I personally didn't know what had
22 happened to me. I started to look about my body to try to understand what
23 the problem was because I didn't hear the shot. And then on my chest I
24 saw that blood was coming out, and then I removed the clothes to see what
25 was the problem there, and I saw a big wound on my right side, and then I
1 dropped my clothes, was scared, and cried out for help. But when the
2 police saw that I was moving, they started to shoot again at me.
3 Q. Were your sisters eventually able to come out and drag you inside
4 the house?
5 A. No. For half an hour, nobody came to my rescue and dragged me
6 from that place because there was constant shooting and firing in my
8 Q. But after a half hour, eventually they got you inside the house?
9 A. Yes. That's correct. We were waiting for the shots to stop, but
10 they continued. So my sister -- my sisters came out from the house and
11 dragged me from that place irrespective of the bullets.
12 Q. As a result of that injury have you been paralysed and in a
13 wheelchair since that time?
14 A. Yes, that's correct. Ever since that date, the 6th of May, 1999,
15 I am in this wheelchair.
16 Q. Now, in your statement, Ms. Sadiku, you tell us how -- well, you
17 describe what was done to try and treat you and how you were moved to
18 another location, to a village called Zahac. On the map in front of you,
19 can you see where Zahac is located?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you draw a circle around that for us, please, with that pen.
22 A. [Marks].
23 JUDGE BONOMY: There's another one on the map but we're quite sure
24 that's the right one? There's one nearer Pec as well.
25 THE PROSECUTOR: There is one nearer Pec, near the railroad line,
1 and I don't know which is the correct one and I don't know if the witness
2 does, or if she can assist, because I'm not sure of my pronunciation or
3 the correct Albanian spelling.
4 Q. Ms. Sadiku, do you see on the map as you move from Zabac toward
5 Peja along the railroad line below it there is another Zahac indicated?
6 Do you know whether the circle you've just drawn or that Zahac would be
7 the one you talk about in your statement?
8 A. I think this -- the one I have surrounded near Zabac, because it
9 was that place. Where this happened was not far from Zabac.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 MR. HANNIS:
12 Q. Thank you. Now, you described your journey out of Kosovo after
13 that. Could we have that -- I'm sorry, a screen shot taken of that and
14 give it to the next IC number?
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC10, Your Honours.
16 MR. HANNIS:
17 Q. And then in your statement, I believe in paragraphs 32 through 39,
18 you describe the route you took before you eventually arrived in Albania,
19 passing through Decane, Gjakova, Prizren and Zhur?
20 A. Zhur. It's called Zhur.
21 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 38, Ms. Sadiku, you describe how when you
22 reached the border, the border police demanded money. Which side of the
23 border are we talking about? Is that on the Kosovo side of the border or
24 on the Albanian side of the border?
25 A. I am talking about the Kosovar side of the border.
1 Q. And the border police, what ethnicity were they?
2 A. They were Serb.
3 Q. What kind of uniforms did they wear?
4 A. Dark blue uniforms and some had black uniforms.
5 Q. And you say in that paragraph that all your IDs were seized.
6 Did -- can you tell us anything else about that? What happened with your
7 IDs or your identity documents after they were taken from you?
8 A. They stopped us at this checkpoint, asked for money and for the
9 IDs, passports, whatever we had on us. The person -- whoever who had the
10 document gave the documents to the guards, and they tore them up and
11 burned them. Those who didn't have documents on them were beaten up and
12 then they left quickly, as far as they could. They were maltreated.
13 Q. Thank you. Did you see that with your own eyes as far as what
14 happened to the documents? Thank you.
15 A. Yes. Yes, I saw it with my own eyes.
16 Q. Ms. Sadiku, lastly, I want to ask you concerning your injury from
17 the gunshot wound. Do you still suffer any pain as a result of that?
18 A. Yes, I do. I have pain. I have a lot of problems. So far I have
19 undergone 10 surgeries, and there is another one pending. Once I return
20 from here, I will undergo another operation in Kosova, and I need to have
21 another surgery done on my back, but for the moment in Kosova this kind of
22 operation is not performed by the doctors there, cannot be performed, but
23 I cannot afford to go to some other place to have it done, so I don't know
24 what will happen.
25 Q. And is my understanding correct that the last surgery you
1 described is one that might enable you to walk again?
2 A. Yes. The fact is that if I undergo another surgery on my backbone
3 in someplace outside Kosova, maybe I can walk again. But my problem is
4 that I cannot afford to pay for the operation, and this is the reason why
5 I have to remain in this condition.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions for this witness, Your
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
10 Mr. O'Sullivan.
11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I have no questions. The order will
12 be General Lazarevic, General Lukic, General Pavkovic, Mr. Sainovic, and
13 General Ojdanic.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Sadiku, my name is Mihajlo Bakrac,
18 attorney-at-law, one of the counsel for General Vladimir Lazarevic.
19 Before I start asking you questions, I wanted to express my regret
20 for you having suffered the injuries you have. I will have but a few
21 questions for you to try and clarify certain things.
22 Ms. Sadiku, on the 6th of May, 1999, at 8.00, you were injured; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. After the injury, as far as I understand, a physician came from
1 Mitrovica by the name of Shaqir Demiri and he checked your condition; is
2 that correct?
3 A. No. Shaqir Demiri didn't come from Mitrovica to visit me. He was
4 in the convoy with us during all the time.
5 Q. Yes. And he checked your condition?
6 A. He only measured my blood pressure. He couldn't do much for me.
7 Q. He took your blood pressure and that was it?
8 A. Yes. He only took my blood pressure, because he couldn't do much
9 more than that.
10 Q. After that you were transferred to the village of Zahac; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In the village of Zahac you were also assisted by someone as
14 regards some sort of care given to you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell us what sort of assistance did you receive in that
18 A. The assistance I received is surprising, I would say, in the sense
19 that they only looked at my wound without giving me any anaesthetic or
21 Q. Thank you. If I understood correctly, Ms. Sadiku, the next four
22 days, you spent that at the village itself; is that correct?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. After that, on the fifth day, you joined the convoy which went
25 across Decane, Djakovica, Prizren, and Zhur towards Albania; is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And how long did it take for you to reach the destination?
4 A. It took us a long time, but I cannot give you a precise estimate
5 because I was in a very bad condition, and I was lying in that state
6 without eating anything, without receiving any assistance for a long time.
7 Q. Miss, you will agree perhaps if I said that the journey took over
8 one day?
9 A. Yes, more than one day.
10 Q. And on the 12th of May, 1999, you crossed a border to Albania at
11 the village of Kukes; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And due to serious internal haemorrhaging, the very same day or
14 the next day you were transferred to the Albanian military hospital in
15 Tirana. Therefore, I would like to know whether that was on that same day
16 or the next day.
17 A. This happened on the same day we entered Kukes, on that very day.
18 Q. Therefore, on the 12th of May.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Ms. Sadiku, among the documents we received from the OTP there are
21 some documents originating from the central military hospital in Tirana.
22 We received your case history, where it is stated that you were admitted
23 into the hospital on the 8th of May, 1999 and that you sustained a gunshot
24 injury three days before you were admitted. Can you explain the
25 discrepancy between your statement and the official document issued by the
1 central military hospital, which we received from the Prosecutor?
2 A. Yes, I can. The date is a problem because the doctor who wrote
3 the case history made the mistake on the date of my admittance to the
5 Q. Did you know of that detail earlier or is it only now that you
6 were able to recollect? Did I jog your memory perhaps by the question I
8 A. I knew this earlier, but there was nothing I could do about it.
9 Q. Couldn't you have explained that to the OTP, to draw their
10 attention to that since you were proofed?
11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, only if she were asked about it.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed. I don't understand the question,
13 Mr. Bakrac. You're asking about a mistake which has no -- if in fact it
14 is a mistake, it's immaterial to the case. If the 12th is the right date,
15 then all this doesn't matter.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will have a follow-up
17 question, and then you will be able to see my position better perhaps.
18 I'm trying to establish what the truth is.
19 Q. Ms. Sadiku, on the 3rd of July, 1999, you were transferred at the
20 Emergency Ward in Murnau in Germany; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Ms. Sadiku, in the case history issued by that hospital, it is
23 stated, and I will quote a sentence: "Ms. Sadiku suffered a gunshot
24 injury in abdominal area and the lumbar part of the spine on the 5th of
25 July, 1999."
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The 5th of June,
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
4 Q. -- "In Kosovo-Albania."
5 Which is correct: Were you injured on the 5th or the 6th of May
6 or perhaps on the 5th of June in Albania, Ms. Sadiku?
7 A. I was injured on the 6th of May. That is the day when I was
9 With respect to the doctor's case histories, I have no information
10 of that. I don't know what they have written on them. The fact is that I
11 was, as I said, injured on the day that I mentioned.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
13 further questions.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
18 Q. Good afternoon, ma'am. My name is Dan Ivetic, and together with
19 my colleagues Branko Lukic and Ozren Ogrizovic, I represent Mr. Sreten
20 Lukic today, and today it is my job to ask you some questions to better
21 understand the events that you witnessed in Kosovo-Metohija during the
22 relevant time period for these proceedings.
23 I apologise in advance if my questions cause you to recall
24 upsetting moments of your life. In fact, we intended to limit our
25 cross-examination but given the new statement that the Prosecutor elicited
1 from you the other day, I'm obliged to ask some questions to clear up
2 areas that I otherwise would not have gone into. I would only ask that
3 you pay close attention to what I ask you and try to limit your answers to
4 what I specifically ask, and we'll try to get through this as quickly as
6 Are you ready to begin, ma'am?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Now, my first question, Ms. Sadiku, in 1998 and 1999, did
9 you speak or understand the Serbian or Serbo-Croatian language?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. And now I want to ask you a couple of questions to try and
12 clear up in my own mind the statements -- the allegations made in your
13 various statements to the Prosecutor of this Tribunal, and first of all,
14 I'd like to focus on your statement of the 23rd of August, 2001, which I
15 believe is Exhibit P2252 in e-court.
16 Now, do you recall giving this statement to the Office of the
17 Prosecutor in August of 2001?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And I would like to ask you, was this statement read back to you
20 in verbatim in the Albanian language at the conclusion of your interview?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And after this statement was read to you, you in fact signed
23 the -- the English version of at that statement; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when you signed that statement, it was explained to you that
1 you were certifying that each paragraph set forth in the statement was
2 true to the best of your knowledge and recollection; isn't that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And were you in fact given a copy of the statement after it was
5 completed, in Albanian or in any other language?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. And for the time period of August, 2001, through August 15,
8 2006, just really this week, for approximately five years you did not make
9 any objection to the statement from August of 2001 or amend it in any way.
10 Is that accurate?
11 A. That is correct, because there were some things not very clear
12 because of translation.
13 Q. Okay. And you'll agree with me that the statement you gave to the
14 Prosecutor on August 15, 2006, that is the most recent statement, that
15 statement is not identical to the one you gave in 2001; is that correct?
16 A. That is correct. As I said, this is due to some unclarities of
17 translation. After I read it in Albania, I came to this conclusion.
18 Q. Okay. And when did you read the statement in Albanian to come to
19 this conclusion?
20 A. I read it. I don't remember the exact date. I read it three,
21 four days after I came here.
22 Q. Okay. So in any event, sometime perhaps this week or last week.
23 Is that accurate?
24 A. This week, I think.
25 Q. Okay. Now, let's focus on the time period before then. Between
1 the time that you first gave your statement in 2001 to the Office of the
2 Prosecutor and when you came here in the past week to go over it, did you
3 discuss or go over that statement with anybody else?
4 A. Can you please repeat the question?
5 Q. Sure. Between the time period you first gave your statement in
6 2001 and this past week when you came here to go over it and to testify,
7 in that intervening time period did you discuss your statement or go over
8 your statement with anybody else?
9 A. I would kindly ask you to repeat your question again, because it's
10 not clear to me.
11 Q. Okay. No problem. Between August of 2001 and August 15th of
12 2006, did you go over or discuss with anybody else the statement that you
13 gave in August of 2001?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. Fair enough. I take it, then, that -- well, let me ask
16 you. Did anyone encourage or influence you to change portions of your
17 testimony as set out in your written statement to the Office of the
19 A. No, no. Everything that is there is given out of my free will.
20 Whatever is changed, I did it.
21 Q. Okay. And focusing now on this statement, let's focus on the
22 statement from August 2001 for the sake of clarity -- do you have a copy
23 of that statement in Albanian?
24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have a hard copy we could provide to
1 MR. IVETIC: If counsel could --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: It is in the system but not in Albanian. Is that
3 the position?
4 MR. HANNIS: It is, but I think if he is going to direct her to
5 specific paragraphs it may be easier for her to work from a hard copy.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
7 MR. HANNIS: And I have handwritten numbered paragraphs on that
8 copy she has, just for counsel's information.
9 MR. IVETIC: I'll keep that in mind, although since I don't -- I
10 don't know which paragraphs those would be, but I do have -- I do have
11 fairly precise page and paragraph references that I have come up with, so
12 hopefully we'll be able to follow.
13 Can I proceed, Your Honour, or was there -- should I proceed?
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue.
15 MR. IVETIC:
16 Q. Now, ma'am, focusing at this -- on this statement, in the Albanian
17 version at page 3, paragraph 3, in English it's page 3, paragraph 2, and
18 in B/C/S it's page 3 and the first paragraph. In that portion of the
19 statement, ma'am, this statement from 2001 states that the police came to
20 your house "many times," and that on one occasion that you specifically
21 remembered they shot a burst of fire in the ground and you said, "We were
22 only women and children at the house at that time." And the statement
23 goes on to state that you recognised one of the police that was present.
24 Now, this portion of your 2001 statement explicitly states that
25 you were presence for this occurrence and that you were an eyewitness to
1 the same, does it not?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Well, ma'am, isn't that what this paragraph of the August 2001
4 statement indicates, that you remembered an event, I mean I could read the
5 whole thing: "I can remember once where we were about 80 people in the
6 house. They shot a burst of fire on the ground and threatened us, to kill
7 us all unless we gave them money and jewelleries. They also slapped a
8 small girl. We were only women and children in the house at the time."
9 This paragraphs indicates that you were present when this event
10 occurred, does it not?
11 A. No, I wasn't present there. This happened after we were driven
12 out of the house and I heard about this event. I wasn't present there.
13 Q. I understand that, ma'am, and I'm going to get to that. But this
14 statement from 2001, it indicates that you were present for this event,
15 does it not?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Let me ask you the question a different way, ma'am. Is this part
18 of your statement from 2001 inaccurate in its description of how you know
19 about this event?
20 A. This part is accurate, but the only problem is that I was not
21 present there to see it myself. I heard it from someone else. I wasn't
22 present. I only heard about this event.
23 Q. Okay. Now, in this part of the statement it is alleged that the
24 police shot into the ground, and I believe even the new statement that
25 you -- that you signed just the other day continues to allege that the
1 police shot into the ground and there are holes in the wall to this day.
2 Isn't that another inconsistency in your statement?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Now --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not clear to me what that answer means,
6 Mr. Ivetic.
7 MR. IVETIC: It's not to me either.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: So I don't think you should skip on thinking it was
9 in agreement with you.
10 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
11 Q. Ma'am, your statement claims that the police shot into the ground,
12 and when we use the term -- well, let me put it to you this way: The
13 bullet holes that you allege are still -- still present or at least were
14 still present in your home at the time of the statement, are they in the
15 ground or are they in the wall of the home?
16 A. They are on the ground.
17 Q. Okay. So would it be accurate to state, then, that the part of
18 the statement that alleges that the holes are in the wall of the home is
19 another inaccuracy of this statement?
20 A. Could you please repeat the question again?
21 Q. Sure. Let me ask it a different way and maybe it will come out
22 clearer in the translation.
23 Is the part of the statement signed for the Prosecutor's office
24 that claims that the bullet holes were in the wall, is that another
25 example of where this statement differs from the truth?
1 MR. HANNIS: Now I'm confused, Your Honour. Which statement are
2 we talking about? Because if he says it's another example where this
3 statement differs from the truth, I thought we only had one example from
4 the statement in 2001 and one or none from the statement in 2006.
5 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. I thought we were talking about the
6 statement from 2001, if I could perhaps limit myself to that at this
8 Q. Ma'am, is that allegation in this statement from 2001 that the
9 bullet holes were in the wall not, in fact, true?
10 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, could I have a reference to where in the
11 2001 statement there's a reference to holes in the wall?
12 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. That's the 2006 statement. That's the
13 problem, when they're both identical in most regards. I apologise.
14 That's probably where the confusion comes in.
15 Q. The 2006 statement, at the paragraph that is labelled number 9,
16 which is on page 3 of the English. Unfortunately, I cannot say what page
17 of the Albanian since it was not given to us. Does it not state there,
18 ma'am, that the bullet marks are still on the wall?
19 Do I need to repeat the question or --
20 A. Yes, it is true that the bullet holes are still there on the floor
21 of the house where they shot.
22 Q. Okay. So then is -- is that part of the statement that claims the
23 bullet marks are on the wall inaccurate is all that I'm trying to find out
24 before I can move on to --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: We don't need that question to be answered by the
1 witness, Mr. Ivetic. You've made the point you seek to make.
2 MR. IVETIC: Fair enough.
3 Q. Now, ma'am, you indicated that you were not present for this
4 particular incident. Would it be fair to say, then, that you have no way
5 of knowing what kind of uniforms these individuals described as police
6 were wearing? Is that accurate?
7 A. At what time? Can you please specify it?
8 Q. Yes. This incident that we discussed that is alleged in
9 paragraph 9 of your 2006 statement and which is alleged at page 3,
10 paragraph 3 of your 2001 statement where it is alleged that the
11 individuals came in and shot their weapons into the ground. For this
12 incident, since you were not there, you have no way of knowing what types
13 or kinds of uniforms these individuals who did this were wearing. Isn't
14 that accurate?
15 A. That is correct. Since I wasn't there present, there is no way
16 how I can describe the uniforms.
17 Q. Okay. And since you were not personally present, you have no way
18 to confirm whether the details of this incident as told to you by other
19 people are accurate. Isn't that also correct?
20 A. That is correct. Can you please repeat the question?
21 JUDGE BONOMY: No. There's no need to repeat it because it's
22 stating the obvious.
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. Now, at page 4 of the Albanian version, again of your 2001
25 statement, and paragraph 4 of that statement, that's page 3, paragraph 4
1 of the English, and page 3, paragraph 4 of the B/C/S, you cite to 80
2 people that were staying with your family at that time after you had left
3 your village, after you had left your house in the forest. Is that
5 A. Yes. This is accurate. I realised it after the war that about 80
6 people were in our home.
7 Q. Okay. And on the third paragraph on that page in the Albanian,
8 page 3, paragraph 6 of the English version and page 3, paragraph 6 of the
9 B/C/S, you state that after that, on April 14, 1999, a group of seven
10 police came to your house and you and these same 80 people that were cited
11 previously were ordered out of the house and told to go "wherever you want
12 to go, Albania or somewhere else." Isn't that what you statement of 2001
14 And if you need to take some time to read that paragraph, by all
15 means do so.
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. Okay. Now, if we turn to that same paragraph of your new
18 statement, that is to say the statement from August 15th of 2006, that
19 would be paragraph number 14 in that statement --
20 I'm assuming that the English paragraphs are the same as the
21 Albanian, Mr. Hannis. Thank you.
22 So in paragraph 14 of your new statement from August the 15th,
23 2006, we see that the -- your testimony relating to this event has been
24 modified and changed so that rather than 80 people being present, you now
25 state that there were approximately 20 people there. Is that -- is that
1 one change in your testimony between these two statements?
2 A. It is a change, because on the 13th of April, we were 80 persons
3 in my home. Fifty persons came from Qirez. I say 80. I couldn't give
4 you an accurate figure, but on the 30th -- 13th of April, we left home,
5 and those 50 persons from Qirez went in another direction. I don't know
6 which direction they went. And the remainder, around 20, were there.
7 Q. Okay. And another difference between your two statements is now
8 in terms of how you describe the activities of the persons who you label
9 as the police, in the newest version of your statement, the August 2006
10 version, the police do not give you the option to go wherever you want to
11 go, to Albania or somewhere else, they direct you to the roadway. Is that
12 accurate -- or does that accurately reflect what your testimony as
13 contained in the August 15, 2006 statement, what that is?
14 A. This is very accurate what I said; namely, that those policemen
15 who came to our house ordered us that we leave the house in five minutes.
16 When we went outside in the street, there were other policemen there
17 telling us something else. That is why we were confused. We didn't know
18 where to go. Some told us one thing; some others told us another thing.
19 Q. So would it be safe to say, then, ma'am, that this statement from
20 2006, which purports to show your testimony in this case, is that it does
21 not include everything that people told you on that day? It's not a
22 complete picture. Is that what you're trying to tell me?
23 A. Whatever I have said is contained in these pages. I don't know
24 what you want me to say.
25 Q. Well, I'm just asking if in fact -- well, strike that. I think
1 the documents speak for themselves.
2 Now, earlier you told me that you do not -- that you neither speak
3 nor understand the Serbian language. How is it, then, that you understood
4 what these individuals that you label as policemen were saying and telling
6 A. Even though I didn't understand the language, didn't speak the
7 language, but my mother and my elder sister, they knew the language. They
8 spoke it. So they understood and told me what all this was about.
9 Q. Would it be fair to say, then, that throughout your statement
10 wherever you cite to something that an alleged Serbian police officer
11 said, would it be fair to say that those statements are based secondhand
12 upon what somebody else told you that those individuals said?
13 MR. HANNIS: Objection, Your Honour. That assume facts in
14 evidence. The Serbian policeman may have spoken to her in Albanian.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, the witness has been given an
16 opportunity to explain her knowledge, and she's explained it.
17 Carry on, Mr. Ivetic. There's nothing wrong with that question.
18 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Do I need to -- I'll read it back for the
20 Q. Would it be fair to say, then, that throughout your statement
21 wherever you cite to something that an alleged Serbian police officer
22 cited, would it be fair to say that those statements are based secondhand
23 upon what somebody else told you that those individuals said?
24 A. I don't know where you want to get at, sir. I'm telling you that
25 everything -- most of the things I have stated in my statement I have seen
1 with my own eyes. There are very minor things which I report to have
2 heard from others.
3 Q. I was hoping to shortcut some of my questions but I guess I'll
4 have to ask you about each time that you spoke with a police officer. In
5 any event, let's focus and finish up with this incident on the 14th of
6 April, first of all.
7 Can you please describe for us what kind of uniforms these people
8 who came into your house were wearing?
9 A. Yes. They were wearing dark blue and black uniforms.
10 Q. Did you see any insignia or badges?
11 A. No. When they entered the house, we didn't have time to look
12 carefully at their uniforms and their insignia. They threatened us, so we
13 didn't dare look at them.
14 Q. Okay. And did these individuals arrive in any type of vehicles?
15 A. They came in vehicles.
16 Q. Okay. If I can direct your attention, I believe it's on the same
17 page, paragraph 9 of your most recent statement, you earlier stated that
18 the police came in blue vehicles called Pinzgauers. Is the term
19 "Pinzgauer" something that you knew at the time as a technical term for
20 the specific type of vehicle, or is that something that someone else told
21 you relative to the technical nature of the vehicles that you viewed?
22 A. No, no one told me the names, but we knew that there were such
23 vehicles, such specific vehicles called Pinzgauers.
24 Q. Okay. Now, moving ahead to the time period when you were in the
25 convoy of people. At page 5, paragraph 3 of the Albanian version of your
1 original 2001 statement. That's page 4 and paragraph 6 of the English,
2 page 4, paragraph 5 of the B/C/S. I'll give you some time to get to
3 there. In that paragraph you state that in Klina e Eperme many women were
4 ripped of their earrings direct without possibility to take them off by
5 themselves, and then you identify one policeman that did this. Is that
7 A. Yes. It is correct.
8 Q. And in fact, in your new statement from 2006, I believe at
9 paragraph 20 of that statement, you have now clarified your testimony that
10 in fact you only saw this happen to three or four women; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And again, there was only one policeman that you describe as
13 having done this. Is that accurate?
14 A. That is accurate.
15 Q. Can you -- can you describe the uniform that this individual was
17 A. The uniform I described earlier.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Plain colour.
20 Q. And you acknowledge in both statements that another policeman who
21 heard about this conduct identified the perpetrator as a bandit and went
22 off to find him. Did you take that to mean that the action of ripping
23 earrings off of women was viewed as a criminal act by this second
24 policeman and that they considered the man who did that a bandit, a
1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that calls for speculation on the part
2 of this witness. There could be all kinds of reasons he told her that.
3 MR. IVETIC: I'm asking for her impression based upon the acts
4 that she witnessed. I mean, how did --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: This -- I'm beginning to despair of some of this,
6 Mr. Ivetic. I mean, you're asking the witness to state what I've already
7 said is the obvious. It's a matter for us in due course to draw a
8 conclusion from that.
9 MR. IVETIC: Okay. That's fair enough. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Should I proceed to another area of questioning?
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Yes, please move on.
12 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
13 Q. Now --
14 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Actually, in her statement she had explained
15 categorically that when that was pointed out that this fellow has ripped
16 the earring, it was said that he was a bandit and he went away, which of
17 course implies that both were hand in glove, and I think this question was
18 rather -- was quite vague and confusing and misleading, please. I
19 apologise using these words.
20 Thank you.
21 MR. IVETIC: As I indicated, I will move on to another question.
22 Q. When the convoy, as you testified, was split, would you describe
23 the -- again, you state it's a policeman on a motorcycle. What was his
24 uniform like?
25 A. The same uniform I referred to earlier, and there was only one
1 policeman who told the convoy to split, and that happened in
2 Klina e Eperme.
3 Q. Okay. And now again I have to ask you about this police officer
4 who spoke to the persons in the convoy. Did he speak in Serbian?
5 A. Yes, in Serbian.
6 Q. Okay. And therefore, I take it your knowledge of what he said is
7 based secondhand upon what someone else told you he said. Is that
9 A. Could you please repeat the question?
10 Q. Sure. I take it your knowledge of what he said is based
11 secondhand upon what someone else told you that he said. Is this
13 A. I already told you that even though I don't speak and understand
14 Serbian, it's my mother and my elder sisters who understood everything
15 what was going on. They explained to me.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, my next line of questioning is,
17 unfortunately, going to have to turn to examine the events relating to the
18 date when you were injured, and again I apologise if this is an upsetting
19 topic, but there are some apparent inconsistencies I have to go through to
20 try and ascertain what happened. So please bear that in mind and try not
21 to take my questions in a negative light.
22 Now, first of all, the -- your initial statement from 2001 does
23 not mention that you were accompanied by anyone when you left where you
24 were staying to go find -- I believe it was the potatoes, prior to being
25 shot. Is that accurate?
1 A. It is true that I wasn't alone. I can't tell you for sure whether
2 we were seven or eight friends, but the fact is we were a group of people.
3 Q. Okay. But you will concede that that is not set forth in your
4 statement of August of 2001?
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Tell me, Mr. Ivetic, why you need to ask that
7 MR. IVETIC: I'm trying to ascertain whether the --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: I mean, I've got the statement in front of me. I
9 can see it's not in it. So why is it you need to ask that question?
10 MR. IVETIC: I need to know whether the problems or
11 inconsistencies in the statement are something related to the witness or
12 related to the process in which the statement was taken.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: But why do you need her to concede that it's not in
14 the statement?
15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm willing to stipulate that it's not.
16 A. You know --
17 MR. IVETIC: I think it is obvious.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: But answer my question. Why is it you need her to
19 concede that it's not in the statement.
20 MR. IVETIC: Because I'm trying to find out from talking to her to
21 understand how it is that the statements differ so much.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: But getting her to concede it's not there, how does
23 that advance your case? I just want to understand that one point.
24 MR. IVETIC: That answer by itself may not, but other answers I
25 may elicit may, and so I'm trying to deal with this in a --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: With great respect to you, Mr. Ivetic, you seem to
2 ask an awful lot of questions that are confusing for this witness, and I,
3 for my part, find most of them quite unnecessary. So please try and focus
4 the cross-examination so that you ask necessary questions and don't ask
5 questions to which the answer to obvious to the Bench.
6 Now, we'll take our break there, and we will resume at five
7 minutes past 4.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Ms. Sadiku, this afternoon you've talked about the police wearing
13 dark blue uniforms. I would ask you, were all of the police officers we
14 have discussed up until date, the alleged police officers, were they
15 wearing single-colour uniforms or were their uniforms consisting of
16 patterns or colours?
17 A. The ones that I saw had the colour I mentioned earlier. But at
18 the same time, there were soldiers as well.
19 Q. Okay. Let me focus you in on the police officer that you stated
20 was on a motorcycle. In addition to his uniform, did he have on any other
21 type of accessories, such as any belt or holster?
22 A. Yes. He had weapons. He had a small revolver in his belt, but I
23 couldn't see anything else because they started to -- he started to
24 threaten us and he wanted to split the convoy. He said we would have to
25 split, so I couldn't see anything else.
1 Q. What colour was his belt?
2 A. Black.
3 Q. Black belt. Okay. Thank you. Now, returning for a moment to
4 that date when you were -- when you said that you were shot. Prior to
5 being shot, you were looking for potatoes. Where were you going to look
6 for potatoes with your friends?
7 A. It was two or three houses away from the place we were staying.
8 Q. Now, what was two or three houses away from the place you were
9 staying? Did you go to a building to get the potatoes or something else?
10 A. It was a field.
11 Q. Okay. And was -- was the field enclosed by a fence or wall?
12 A. No.
13 Q. I presume the field -- strike that.
14 The field did not belong to any of the several of you that were
15 going for the potatoes. Is that accurate?
16 A. No, nobody owned that, because that was not our village. We were
17 from Zhabar.
18 Q. Okay. In your village, based upon your knowledge, was it
19 commonplace for farmers or villagers to have firearms, guns?
20 A. Which villagers, which farmers do you mean?
21 Q. Were there villagers or farmers in the village where you lived?
22 A. Once again the question, please.
23 Q. In the village where you lived, were there people with fields, or
25 A. In our village, in Zhabari, no.
1 Q. Okay. Do you have knowledge of villagers, Kosovo villagers,
2 having firearms to protect their fields?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right. Let's move on. Now, at the part of your statement
5 where you talk about the events when you were shot, I believe in the 2001
6 statement -- in the 2001 statement, it's at page 7, paragraph 1 of the
7 Albanian, page 5, paragraph 4 of the B/C/S, and page 6, paragraph 1 of the
8 English, and I believe that is at -- at paragraph 28 of the new statement.
9 Now, first of all, you did not mention seeing any police officers
10 in your statement of 2001. Why is that?
11 A. I did mention this in my statement of 2001, and the latter one is
12 the same with the previous one, and I'm saying this again, but I don't
13 know why it is not reflected in the statement.
14 Q. Would you agree with me, then, that -- that the 2001 statement
15 does not make reference to the seven police officers that you state that
16 you saw outside the church? Is that accurate?
17 A. Once again the question, please.
18 Q. Okay. When you say you don't know why it is not reflected in the
19 statement, are you referring to the seven police officers that you now
20 state you saw outside the church?
21 A. No. I responded to the question you made earlier. It was not
22 about the policemen. It was about officers.
23 Q. Okay. Let me clear things up. When I use the term "police
24 officers," I am referring to policemen. Maybe I should just use the
25 word "policemen" from here on out.
1 When you say you don't know why it is not reflected in your
2 statement, are you referring to the seven policemen that you now state you
3 saw outside the church?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And again, are you saying that the translator who
6 translated and prepared the statement in 2001 inaccurately recorded what
7 you told the Office of the Prosecutor?
8 A. No. I'm saying that the investigator who interviewed me, he was
9 taking down notes. It was not the interpreter who was taking down notes.
10 It was the investigator.
11 Q. Okay. Are you telling us, then, that -- well, strike that. I
12 don't think I need to go into that.
13 With respect to the seven policemen that you state now that you
14 saw, these policemen were outside the church. That is to say they were
15 not at the top of the church; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, outside the church, in the courtyard.
17 Q. Okay. And I can take it from your statement that these seven
18 persons, these policemen that you saw, you did not see any of them
19 pointing any guns in your direction. Is that accurate?
20 A. It is true that I couldn't see whether they were pointing their
21 guns towards me or in our direction, because they were very far away from
23 Q. And in fact, I think in your statement, in the Albanian -- in the
24 2001 statement, it's the Albanian page 7, paragraph 1, the B/C/S page 5,
25 paragraph 4, the English page 6, paragraph 1, I think that you confirm in
1 there that you do not know whether in fact the gunmen came from that
2 direction. Isn't that accurate?
3 A. No. I know where they shot from or where that person shot from,
4 because I was with my back towards the police, and the bullet came from
5 where they were.
6 Q. Ma'am, you did not see the individual who fired the gun, did you?
7 A. No, I didn't. But when I fell on the ground, I saw other bullets
8 coming from the direction where the police were.
9 Q. You did not -- strike that.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: You do observe, Mr. Ivetic, that in the statement
11 of 2001 the witness actually says: "I believe there was more than one,
12 because whenever we saw policemen they always were more than only one."
13 MR. IVETIC: I do observe that, Your Honour, and it doesn't seem
14 to clarify things any.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: No, but it indicates a reference to the police
16 being in the vicinity in -- being made in the statement in 2001.
17 MR. IVETIC: I don't believe it does.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh. Well, very well.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. But what I'm getting at, ma'am, is that you actually don't know
21 where the shooting was coming from or who was engaged in the shooting.
22 Isn't that correct?
23 A. No. I -- I know where the shots came from and who shot me.
24 Q. How far away is that location from where you were?
25 A. It was quite a distance. I can't give you an exact distance or a
1 number for -- of metres.
2 Q. You did not see any muzzle-flash from any weapons, did you?
3 A. No, I couldn't because it was far away, so I couldn't see who
4 exactly was it that shot me.
5 When I got shot, I fell on the ground and I lost consciousness,
6 and for half an hour they continued to shoot in my direction, so much so
7 that nobody could come and pick me up and take me into the house.
8 Q. If you lost consciousness, ma'am, how is it that you saw the
9 bullets and where they were coming from?
10 JUDGE CHOWHAN: No. I'm sorry, I would intervene. I mean, this
11 is not a question to be asked, because the bullet hit her, and thereafter
12 she became unconscious or whatever. She fell down. I mean, this sort of
13 a question is not -- is not appropriate, sir.
14 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, with all due respect, I believe
15 she has testified that after she was shot there was shooting for half an
16 hour and that she saw where those bullets were coming from.
17 JUDGE CHOWHAN: We are talking of the bullet that hit her. We're
18 not talking of random firing. We're not talking of general firing. We're
19 talk of that bullet firing and she falling down and she seeing it is
20 coming from a direction. I mean, this sort of question -- I'm observing
21 the way things are being asked, but sometimes one has to intervene.
22 MR. IVETIC: Well, perhaps I can clarify. I'm asking about the --
23 JUDGE CHOWHAN: You may clarify. But the way, sir, the questions
24 are being put does bother me because I think we have her statement, we've
25 read her statement, we've seen what she's deposed, and the way things are
1 being questioned over many things, I mean, that calls for interference,
2 although we are not doing it.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE BONOMY: I think, Mr. Ivetic, you've actually explained
5 there may be some misunderstanding and, therefore, you may proceed to ask
6 questions along the lines you were indicating.
7 MR. IVETIC: Okay. I apologise. The microphone was not on.
8 Okay. Thank you.
9 Q. Ma'am, earlier today, at page 41 of the transcript, pages [sic] 2
10 to 4, I asked you: "Ma'am, you did not see the individual who fired the
11 gun, did you?"
12 And the answer was: "No, I didn't, but when I fell to the ground,
13 I saw other bullets coming from the direction where the police were."
14 And so I'm asking you now, first of all, if you were unconscious,
15 how did you see the other bullets coming from the direction where the
16 police were?
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't think we've yet established
19 exactly when she became unconscious and how long she was unconscious for.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we might have done if that question was
21 answered, might we not?
22 MR. IVETIC: That's what I'm hoping.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Sadiku, the issue that's before us at the
24 moment relates to you becoming unconscious. Can you tell us at what stage
25 you became unconscious?
1 A. After the bullet hit me on my back, for two or three minutes I
2 couldn't understand what was going on. I lost consciousness for two or
3 three minutes. When I was on the ground, I regained consciousness, and I
4 saw -- I touched my body and there was blood, and then I could understand
5 what had happened.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC:
9 Q. Now, I can imagine that you were -- you were in a state of -- of
10 shock when you were on the ground. Is that accurate?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And I could also imagine that you perhaps do not remember clearly
13 all the events while you were in this state of distress. Is that also
15 A. For those two or three minutes. I can't remember what happened
16 during those two or three minutes, but after that I remember everything.
17 Q. Okay. My point is: You did not see any of the seven policemen
18 shooting at you at any point in time. Isn't that accurate?
19 A. I did not see the seven policemen who were in the courtyard. I
20 did not see one of them shooting of me, but I think that there were
21 more -- more than seven policemen there. Not only seven, many more.
22 Q. And that belief is based upon your speculation. Isn't that
23 accurate? That is to say, you did not see any more policemen there with
24 your own eyes, did you?
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, don't answer that question. We're now in a
1 courtyard, Mr. Ivetic, so can you get us, first of all, out of the
2 courtyard and back to the church?
3 MR. IVETIC: I can try.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: I mean, you're asking questions at cross-purposes
5 with the witness at the moment.
6 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, she's -- she's -- I'll ask a
7 question then.
8 Q. Did you see any police officers -- strike that, policemen. Did
9 you see any policemen in the church?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Inside the church building you saw policemen?
12 A. There were some at the part where the bell of the church is. I
13 don't know what that part of the church is called, but there were some up
14 there, and there were some outside.
15 Q. Where is that reflected in either your statement of 2001 or your
16 statement of 2006?
17 A. The policemen I saw were in the courtyard of the church, and I'm
18 saying this again. And I am positive that there were not only those
19 policemen that were in the courtyard, but there were others as well. I
20 remembered this later. I remember this now.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on, Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: Sure.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry about that interruption, but there's a fair
25 degree of confusion among the Judges about the questions that have been
1 asked and the answers that are being given, and we've been trying to
2 clarify in our own minds where you have reached, Mr. Ivetic, and I think
3 we've no option but to let you carry on, and you do your best to clarify
4 the point you're trying to make.
5 MR. IVETIC: I will try, Your Honour, but that will be dependent
6 upon the answers that I receive.
7 Q. Now, Ms. Sadiku, in your statement of 2001 and your statement from
8 2006, I would direct you in your statement of 2001 to the Albanian,
9 page 7, paragraph 1, which in English is the -- page 6, paragraph 1, B/C/S
10 page 5, paragraph 4.
11 In your statement that is being taken as sworn testimony in these
12 proceedings, it is recorded that you state: "From the church in
13 Zablace i Eperm, Upper Zablac, I saw from my position smoke from the top
14 of the church. I do not know if the gunman was there or not but I saw the
16 Isn't it a fact that that is all that you saw at the top of the
17 church as is recorded in both this paragraph and in paragraph 28 of your
18 most recent statement?
19 A. It is true that I smoke in the courtyard of the church, and the
20 policeman were around the place where the smoke came from. Some were
21 exactly at the place where I saw the smoke. The others were a little
22 farther away. And this is true. This is what I saw.
23 Q. So for sake of clarification, the smoke you saw, the only smoke
24 you saw, was from the courtyard, not from the church building.
25 A. Not from the church building. From the courtyard, yes.
1 Q. Okay. Fair enough. So there was no smoke from the top of the
2 church building?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you. Is it safe -- strike that.
5 Is it accurate to state, then, that you did not see any gunmen at
6 the top of the church building on that day?
7 A. It is true that I did not see. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't
8 see who hit me, who shot me. I had my back towards them, so how could I
9 see them?
10 Q. Then when you -- earlier in your question and answer session with
11 Mr. Hannis, the Prosecutor, when you stated, "The police were shooting at
12 me," wouldn't it have been more accurate to state, "Someone, that I don't
13 know who, was shooting at me"?
14 Isn't a more accurate depiction of what you actually saw?
15 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, can we have some clarification as
16 to whether it's the person who fired the shot that went into her back or
17 the other shots that occurred during the following half hour?
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, can you clarify the question, please?
19 MR. IVETIC: Sure. I will try to, Your Honour.
20 Q. Now, let me ask a slightly different question. You cannot confirm
21 that the individual who fired the shot that struck you was, in fact, a
23 MR. HANNIS: She's never said that.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Please, please, Mr. Ivetic, do not go back to an
25 issue that's already been very clearly stated by the witness, a very clear
1 answer a moment ago that she was shot in the back and therefore couldn't
2 see who shot her. Okay. What on earth could be clearer than that? Now,
3 let's move on from that.
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I have time, I'll back in the
5 transcript and I'll see where Mr. Hannis asked her questions, and she
6 said, "The police are shooting at me." So it's not at all clear to
7 me how --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that. You see, please don't divert
9 attention from the point that I am trying to deal with, which is you've
10 got a very clear answer, and then you immediately court difficulty by
11 asking the same question in a different way when we know the witness's
12 position on this. We know that she didn't see -- at this point in her
13 answers, we know that she didn't see the person who shot at her and struck
15 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: So let's move on from that.
17 MR. IVETIC:
18 Q. Okay. Can I then get clarification from the witness whether, in
19 fact, she could say the person or persons who were shooting at her for
20 half an hour.
21 A. Once again the question, please.
22 Q. Yes. After you were shot and fell to the ground, did you or did
23 you not see who was shooting at you for half an hour?
24 A. Yes, the police who were in the courtyard of the church.
25 Q. Ma'am, earlier today -- yes.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I would like to ask Ms. Sadiku a question
4 Now, you have told the Trial Chamber that you first felt a pain in
5 your back. The direction that your back was turned towards, what
6 direction was that? Was it in a direct -- could you please give us the
7 direction in relation to the church where you saw the fire and you said
8 you had seen the policemen before?
9 Please answer that question for me specifically. I'd be grateful.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was with my back towards the
11 police. My back turned to the police.
12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Your back was turned to the police, yes, but I
13 related it to the church where you say you saw the smoke. Could you
14 answer that question further and specifically, what I put to you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police and the church, they were
16 close to each other. They were in the church courtyard. The church
17 building itself was a little farther away. After the church, there was a
18 hill. They were next to the church. The police were next to the church.
19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
22 Q. Ms. Sadiku, earlier today I asked you a question, and at page 40
23 of the transcript, line 16, your response to that question was: "It is
24 true that I couldn't see whether they were pointing their guns toward me
25 or in our direction because they were very far away from us."
1 How is it that you can now state that these police were shooting
2 at you for half an hour?
3 A. Because when I was struck by the bullet, my back was turned to
4 them, so I couldn't see who shot me. But when I fell to the ground, my
5 face was facing the police, and I could see what was happening after that.
6 So for half an hour they shot at me.
7 Q. Is it your testimony today that you personally saw the police
8 shooting at you from the church courtyard?
9 A. Yes. After I fell to the ground, all the bullets that came came
10 from the direction where the police were staying.
11 Q. Were there other structures in that direction? Other buildings,
12 for instance.
13 A. No. There were some, but they were further away and they were
14 lower buildings. The highest building was the church, because it was
15 situated on the hill.
16 Q. And how far away was that church from where you fell?
17 A. I told you earlier that I cannot give you an estimate of how far
18 it was.
19 Q. Now, would you consider the fact that you saw the persons who were
20 shooting at you for half an hour, would you consider that to be an
21 important fact relative to your statement?
22 A. I don't seem to understand. Could you repeat that?
23 Q. Well, let me --
24 JUDGE CHOWHAN: This is a legal question, sir.
25 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Well, let me ask this then --
1 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Please don't ask her a legal question.
2 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
3 Q. Why does your statement not state that the police in the courtyard
4 were shooting at you for half an hour? Why is that not in either of your
5 statements, if you so clearly saw it and clearly remember it?
6 A. I told you earlier. I have said that I don't know why it is not
7 in the statement. Everything I said is true, and I've come here to tell
8 the truth.
9 Q. Did you tell the Prosecutor's office in 2001 that the police in
10 the courtyard were shooting at you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the Prosecutor failed to put that in your statement. Is that
13 what you're telling us?
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Ivetic, page 5, bottom paragraph of that
15 statement says: "When the gunmen saw I was moving, they started to shoot
16 heavily against me. Because of the shooting, which lasted for a half an
17 hour, no one from the house could help me. I was screaming for help, but
18 none could assist me from the house."
19 And then the first full paragraph -- or it may be the second
20 paragraph on page 6: "After half an hour, two of my sisters managed to
21 drag me into the house despite continued firing from the snipers. I do
22 not know if there were more than one gunmen, but I think there were. I
23 believe it was more than one because whenever we saw policemen, they
24 always were more than only one. They always operated together in groups."
25 MR. IVETIC: And she has never stated whether, in fact, the gunman
1 was a policeman, Your Honour. In the statement, it's completely at odds
2 with -- it's open to interpretations of both one or the other, and I would
3 think that if she clearly saw it that would be something important enough
4 to be in the statement.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Just tell ...
6 MR. IVETIC: And I believe her statement says: "When I was on the
7 ground, I saw around seven policemen near the church. I think they had
8 made a small fire close to the church."
9 That is what she says with respect to actually having seen the
10 policemen, Your Honour, and I'm trying to get clarification, and that's
11 what I've been trying to do for the last several series of questions,
12 because her testimony here is -- is, in my mind, different.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Well, you've got a clear answer that she
14 told the Prosecutor's office that the police in the courtyard were
15 shooting at her.
16 MR. IVETIC: Okay. And that was with respect to the statement in
18 Q. Now let me ask you about when you were interviewed just the other
19 day in 2006. Is it your testimony that at that time you told the
20 Prosecutor that you clearly saw the police in the courtyard shooting at
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And again - this is for the second time - the Prosecutor refused
1 to put that in your statement? Is that what you're telling us?
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, how -- how can you answer -- or how can the
3 witness answer that question? It's the same question as I interrupted you
4 on a moment ago. How can the witness answer that?
5 MR. IVETIC: You're right, Your Honour. I apologise.
6 Q. Now --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, just one other thing you could perhaps assist
8 me with. Where was the point at which you say Mr. Hannis elicited an
9 answer that the police were shooting at her?
10 MR. IVETIC: If I could get back to that, Your Honour. I
11 believe -- if it was at page -- my e-court is logged out. I have to log
12 back in to be able to access that.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Were you checking it, Mr. Hannis? Can you help me?
14 MR. HANNIS: I haven't been checking, but we are now, Your Honour.
15 But generally when we talked about that topic, I think I asked her: Could
16 you tell the Judges what happened on that day? And then when she stopped
17 at one point, I said: Could you tell them what happened next.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: I can't find the reference to saying the police
19 were shooting at her.
20 MR. HANNIS: Page 13, line 1, seems to make a reference to the
21 police shooting --
22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, page 12, actually, beginning from
23 line 20 to 25: "My friend left me crying and I personally didn't know
24 what had happened to me."
25 And then it goes on the -- at 25 and 13, 1: "But when the police
1 saw that I was moving, they started to shoot again at me."
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. So it was an answer to an open question
3 which was: And then what happened?
4 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: It wasn't a question by Mr. Hannis about the police
6 shooting at her, which was the way in which I think you described it at
7 the time.
8 MR. IVETIC: I apologise if that's the way it was interpreted. I
9 meant in the questioning by Mr. Hannis she talked -- she had testified as
10 to the police shooting.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: It couldn't be a more open question. All right?
12 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. Now, you don't know -- or strike that.
16 Do you know if there were any armed battles between the UCK/KLA
17 and Serb or Albanian villagers going on in the immediate vicinity of the
18 village where you were located, do you?
19 A. No. For three weeks -- for the three weeks that I stayed there, I
20 never met anyone with a KLA uniform.
21 Q. But as far as the surrounding area is concerned, you did not
22 venture outside of the village, did you?
23 A. Once again, please.
24 Oh, okay. We were scared to go outside. And this was not our
25 village. We didn't know where to go. That's why we didn't leave the
1 place where we were staying. It was a place unknown to us.
2 Q. And you do not know if there were any villagers from that village
3 that were located outside of their homes surrounding the village, do you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Now, at page 7, paragraph 8 of your Albanian statement from
6 2001, which is -- one moment, Your Honour. I'm having trouble locating
7 the English version of that.
8 In any event, you talked about the shelling of the convoy. Now,
9 do you recall that?
10 A. You mean the bombing or the shelling? Could you repeat the
11 question again?
12 Q. Well, I asked you about the shelling. One of your statements
13 talks about a bombing. One talks about a shelling. Could you perhaps
14 tell us which you recall actually having occurred?
15 A. After I was wounded, I was taken to the village of Zahac. I was
16 taken to stay with a family, and after we joined the convoy, there was
17 five or six tractors behind us. A shell fell on one of the tractors. I
18 don't know how well I described this.
19 Q. Okay. And that is, I believe, page -- page 6, paragraph 7 of the
20 English, and page 6, paragraph 2 of the B/C/S.
21 Now, in your statements, both the 2001 and 2006, you attribute
22 this shelling or bombing, it doesn't matter which, you attribute it to the
23 Serbs; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, you did not actually see who shot or who shot -- where the
1 shell or bomb, whichever it was, came from, did you?
2 A. No, I didn't see the direction it came from, but that day it was a
3 horrifying day. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know how to
4 describe it to you. There were so many people. Everybody was distressed.
5 Q. Okay. And I believe -- okay. During 1999, the UCK or KLA was
6 operating throughout Kosovo and was armed with a variety of weapons,
7 including mortars and artillery. Isn't that correct?
8 A. Once again, please, the question.
9 Q. Isn't it a fact that during 1999, the UCK/KLA was operating
10 throughout Kosovo and was armed with weapons including mortars and
12 A. I don't know. As I said, I never saw or met a KLA man. And how
13 can I give you an answer about what their weapons were? I don't know.
14 Q. Well, then, how can you give me an answer saying that the Serbs
15 shelled the convoy when you didn't see it?
16 A. I say this because the whole -- all the people who were in the
17 convoy were saying this, and that's what I'm reporting to you.
18 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Now, during the -- during the entire time
19 period you were in the convoy, you never asked any Serbian policeman to
20 help you get medical assistance for your injuries, did you?
21 A. No, I never asked for help because I didn't dare to tell them that
22 I was wounded. I feared what they might think about my wound. I couldn't
23 trust them. That's why I didn't ask for medical help from them.
24 Q. And in fact, I believe in your statement, in your testimony in the
25 statement, when one police officer inquired about your condition, your
1 sister told him you were handicapped from birth; is that right?
2 A. Yes. Because that day when we were stopped at this checkpoint,
3 police checkpoint, and we were scared -- they were scared that they would
4 take me away. My sisters were scared. And that's why they
5 answered, "This is a handicapped girl. It's the same thing. She was born
6 like that. It's the same thing. Her mother is handicapped as well."
7 Q. Okay. And now, do you know approximately how many days after --
8 strike that.
9 How many days were you in the convoy heading towards the border
10 and Kukes?
11 A. Three days, if I'm not mistaken. So that means that on the third
12 day, at 10.00, we entered Kukes.
13 Q. Now, in your statement you talk about various checkpoints where
14 persons demanded money from you. Can you describe what uniforms these
15 persons, whom you describe as policemen, were wearing at the time?
16 A. The same uniforms I mentioned earlier. The same colour, police
18 Q. Okay. Did these men have any belts?
19 A. I couldn't see them because I was lying down.
20 Q. Okay. Would it be accurate to state that from your injuries you
21 were lying down and were you also going in and out of consciousness while
22 this trip on the convoy was taking place?
23 A. No. During the whole time I was in the convoy I was in pain, lots
24 of pain, but I was -- I did not lose consciousness.
25 Q. Okay. Now, if I can just go back to finish up a couple more
1 points and then I'll be finished with you, ma'am.
2 At page 3, paragraph 1 of your original statement, that's page 2,
3 paragraph 2 of the English, page 2 paragraph 7 of the B/C/S, you talk
4 about an incident involving your brother Halim at a police checkpoint, and
5 in the -- well, first of all, neither your brother or your family took any
6 steps to complain about the treatment of Halim to the police authorities,
7 did you?
8 A. Could you repeat that?
9 Q. Let me try and simplify it. You state that your brother Halim was
10 mistreated at a police checkpoint; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Okay. After that incident, neither your brother nor your family
13 reported that incident to the police authorities, did they?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And furthermore, that incident was never reported by anyone to the
16 KVM mission. Isn't that also correct?
17 A. Yes, I'm clear now about your question. No, we didn't report it
18 to the KVM.
19 Q. And at the time that this incident occurred, the KVM was on the
20 territory of Kosovo and Metohija. Isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Now, you stated that you never saw any KLA individuals, but
23 did you in fact hear about any activities of the KLA, and for the moment
24 let's talk about the -- within the area where your village is located,
25 within that municipality.
1 A. No, I never heard.
2 Q. Okay. And did you hear that the Serbian police maintained a
3 presence in the area in 1998 as a response to KLA activities?
4 A. Could you repeat that, please.
5 Q. Yes. Did you have any knowledge of the fact that in 1998 the
6 police presence in area where your village is located, that this presence
7 was tied to any KLA or UCK activity?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Okay. During 1998, was the Serbian police present either in your
10 village or in the surrounding area around your village?
11 A. On the road, yes.
12 Q. Okay. And during all of 1998, although the Serbian police were in
13 the area, they never came to your home to cause problems for you or your
14 family. Isn't that correct?
15 A. Could you repeat that, please.
16 Q. Yes. During 1998, although the Serbian police were in the area,
17 they never came to your home to cause problems for you or your family
18 during that entire time period; is that correct?
19 A. No. With the exception of my brother who was beaten up on the
20 road, and then on the 13th of April when they started burning the houses
21 in the village.
22 Q. Okay. With respect to that time period of 1998, you indicated
23 that the police were on the road. Is it safe to say, then, that there
24 were crossing checkpoints on the road manned by the police?
25 A. Yes, there was a checkpoint at Zhabar, Lower Zhabar. That's the
1 place where my brother was beaten up.
2 Q. Okay. And apart from that one incident with your brother, neither
3 you nor other family members personally experienced any hardships or abuse
4 in crossing these checkpoints. Isn't that correct?
5 A. I don't know, because at that time I was at school, so I did not
6 go past that checkpoint or through that checkpoint. So I don't know
7 whether there were any problems or not.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I could have just a few moments to
10 collect my thoughts and my notes to see if I have any further questions, I
11 will then be done with this witness.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I have no further questions for this
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
16 Mr. Aleksic.
17 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. General
18 Pavkovic's Defence has no questions for this witness.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Fila.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] We don't have any questions either.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk.
22 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
24 Mr. Hannis.
25 MR. HANNIS: Yes, I do have a couple of questions, Your Honour.
1 Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:
2 Q. Ms. Sadiku, when Mr. Ivetic was asking you about the police at the
3 church after you had been shot, during those three weeks that you and the
4 other 6.000 in the convoy were staying in Zabac, other than the police, in
5 that area during those three weeks did you see any other men with guns,
6 farmers, KLA, soldiers?
7 A. No. I saw no one else, just the police. No one else had guns.
8 Q. And while you were on the ground after you'd been shot in the back
9 and during that half hour that the shooting continued, were you able to
10 see whether the police appeared to be responding to those shots as though
11 they were coming from somewhere else or as though there were some other
12 armed group in the area? If you understand my question.
13 A. Yes, I understood it, but I'm --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Microphone, please, Mr. Fila.
16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Objection, because of this line of
17 questioning. He's asking the witness to speculate. How can she know
18 that? How can she provide the answer to that question?
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think, Mr. Fila, that's not quite right,
20 because the question is in this form, "Were you able to see." So it calls
21 for an answer from her own direct knowledge, not for speculation. So it
22 is admissible.
23 MR. HANNIS: Let me rephrase my question.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
25 MR. HANNIS:
1 Q. After you'd been shot and you were on the ground, you were moving
2 and shots continued to come at you. Did the police approach to try and
3 help you?
4 A. No.
5 MR. HANNIS: No further questions, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
7 Ms. Sadiku, that completes your evidence. Thank you very much for
8 coming to the Tribunal to give it. We wish you well in your recovery and
9 the further efforts that you hope to be able to make to improve your
10 mobility. We hope that these will be successful. You're now free to
11 leave. Thank you.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, your next witness.
14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Our next witness is Hadije
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Ms. Fazliu.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you now please make the solemn declaration by
20 reading allowed the document in front of you.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay. [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I
22 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
24 WITNESS: HADIJE FAZLIU
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE BONOMY: The Judges have before them a statement of your
2 evidence and also a transcript of what you said previously when you gave
3 evidence at the Tribunal. So we already have a lot of the material
4 covering your evidence. The purpose of this afternoon is to enable
5 counsel to answer questions either to clarify or expand this or to
6 challenge it, and please don't be surprised if some questions do challenge
7 the evidence you've given. That's the job of the lawyers in the Tribunal
8 under the system that we have here. You know that from your past visit to
9 the Tribunal.
10 The first of the lawyers to ask you questions will be for the
11 Prosecutor, and that is Mr. Hannis.
12 Mr. Hannis.
13 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Examination by Mr. Hannis:
15 Q. Good afternoon. Could you tell us your full name for the record,
17 A. My name is Hadije Fazliu.
18 Q. And, Ms. Fazliu, in 1999 were you living in Srbica or Skenderaj
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And could you tell us the name of your village?
22 A. Turiceve.
23 Q. And as I understand it, you were living there at that time with
24 your father, your brother, and your brother's wife and their four
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, this is a witness that we're proceeding
3 with under 92 bis (D).
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
5 MR. HANNIS: The transcripts are marked as two separate exhibits
6 because she testified over the course of two days. They are P2242
7 and 2243. And her statement, which was tendered as a 92 bis statement
8 during her testimony, is Exhibit P2241. And I would like to tender all
9 those into evidence at this time.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, these are all noted as part of the process,
11 Mr. Hannis.
12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Now, Ms. Fazliu, in your -- in your written statement, you've
14 indicated that your village had about a hundred houses and about a
15 thousand people living in it at that time; is that correct?
16 A. Yes. This was approximately the number of inhabitants, yes.
17 Q. And you tell us that on the 26th of March, 1999, two days after
18 the NATO bombing began, that you and your family decided to leave the
19 village; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where did you go?
22 A. We went to the village of Tushile, which is 3 kilometres away from
23 my village. Three kilometres approximately. I'm not sure about the
25 Q. And why had your family decided to go to Tusilje?
1 A. Because we, my family and the people in my village, we were
2 refugees within Kosovo. We were displaced. We went in various -- we went
3 to various places all the time. We were all the time ready to go
5 Q. And what happened on the 26th of March to cause you to leave your
7 A. On the 26th of March there was shelling. There was an offensive,
8 an offensive of the Serbian army and police. So we got on the tractor and
9 we left.
10 Q. When you got to Tusilje -- well, first of all, how big is the
11 village of Tusilje compared to yours? Was it bigger or smaller?
12 A. Tusilje is a small village. There are hills around it. There is
13 also a mountain there. But there was water there and lumber. We could
14 use the wood in the forest. And there is no main road there. That's why
15 we went there.
16 Q. And in your written statement, it's paragraph 7 and 8, you
17 indicate that you had never been there before, but when you arrived you
18 discovered that there were several villagers from other villages who had
19 come to Tusilje as well.
20 Can you tell us what other villages people had come from, if you
22 A. So in addition to my village there were people from the villages
23 of Skenderaj, Klina, Gllogoc. I can't tell you all the villages these
24 people came from. I don't know.
25 Q. And if you know, do you -- do you know why they had come to
1 Tusilje at that time? Did you talk to any of them to find that out?
2 A. As I mentioned earlier, we were refugees in March when the Prekaz
3 incident happened. The police came to our village. We went first to
4 Padaliste first, and then we went to other places, we returned home. So
5 for a year we were refugees within our own country.
6 When we returned home, it was only for two or three days at a
7 time. We couldn't stay for longer.
8 Q. I understand that answer to be talking about your family and
9 perhaps the people from your village. What about the people from Klina
10 and Skenderaj and Gllogoc? Do you know what their situation was, the
11 reason they'd come to Tusilje on the 26th of March, 1999?
12 A. Because there was an offensive, and people were being expelled,
13 killed. So people were fearing for their lives, and that's why they left.
14 Q. In paragraphs 8 and 9 of your written statement, that is the
15 bottom of page 2 of the English and top of page 3, you indicate that after
16 you had been there in Tusilje for three days the police came, and in that
17 paragraph at the top of page 3 of the English, you say that people from
18 Srbica had come because there had been a massacre in Izbica the day
19 before. Did you know that at the time on the 29th of March, that there
20 had been an alleged massacre on the 28th of March in Izbica?
21 A. As far as I know, I was in Turkey -- sorry, I was in Tushile, and
22 there was this convoy that came from Izbica, and half of the convoy came
23 there. They were shelled. One woman and two children were killed. I saw
24 the bodies when I went there. And people, because they feared for their
25 lives, they left the places where they lived and they went to Izbica, to
1 Tushile and so on.
2 Q. But on the 29th of March, what information did you have about
3 anything that had happened in Izbica the day before, on the 28th?
4 A. The women from Izbica came. They were in shock, and they told me
5 that this massacre in Izbica happened. They told me. And I told
6 them, "Go to this courtyard in Tushile, but the next day we were also
7 surrounded there, in Tushile as well.
8 Q. Did you they give you any information about what happened in
10 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll deal with that after the break, Mr. Hannis.
11 Two things -- or three things I'd like to clarify with you,
12 Ms. Fazliu. You say that you heard about the Izbica massacre from women
13 who came to Tushile. Did you meet them on the 29th of March?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I met them.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I asked them what happened.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you. The second question is: Did you
18 actually go to Izbica yourself?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: So where did you see the bodies you referred to?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see the bodies that were
22 killed there in the massacre.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: There must be -- it must be a mistake in the
25 And thirdly, you said that you -- or you referred to a massacre at
1 Prekaz. When was that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened in 1988 [sic].
3 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's when you date the fact that you were a
4 refugee from, from that time?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From March. For a year I've been a
6 refugee. Maybe the 5th of March, yes. I was a refugee in Kosovo.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you for clarifying these points.
8 We'll adjourn now for the break that's necessary at this stage in
9 the proceedings, and we will resume at 6.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
13 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Ms. Fazliu, before I continue I want to back up and try to clarify
15 a few things that I wasn't clear on.
16 Judge Bonomy asked you about the Prekaz incident and when that
17 took place. On the transcript it appears as 1988, but in your answer you
18 said you had been a refugee for about a year since March. Can you tell us
19 what year the Prekaz incident happened that you're talking about?
20 A. It was in 1998.
21 Q. Thank you. And another question that came up concerned bodies in
22 Izbica. Judge Bonomy asked you a question about that. I think you said
23 you did not see any bodies that were killed in Izbica in the massacre. Is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. At page 66, line -- beginning at line 5 to line 10 in response to
2 one question, you mentioned having seen one woman and two children who had
3 been killed when the convoy from Izbica had travelled to where you were.
4 Where did you see those bodies of one woman and two children?
5 A. I saw them when I went out of Tushile, and then I can say that I
6 saw those dead bodies.
7 Q. And where -- where did you see them? Were they on the ground?
8 Were they in a vehicle? Were they along the road?
9 A. They were close to the asphalt road of Turiceve, which divides one
10 part of Turiceve. So they were there. This is that part where the dead
11 bodies were.
12 Q. And so I can be clear, what was your information or understanding
13 about when and how those bodies came to be at that location?
14 A. I heard about those dead bodies, that there was a shell and it
15 split the convoy of Izbica, so people going towards Tushile. So the
16 convoy was at the same village, close to the asphalt road. And they were
17 split into two, one part in Tushile. I don't know where the other part
18 went because I was inside in Tushile.
19 Q. All right. Thank you. Now I understand. In Tushile, you tell us
20 that on the 29th of March the police surrounded the village and came in.
21 The people from Izbica who came to Tushile, when did they arrive there?
22 Was it before or after the police had surrounded and came in?
23 A. It was a day before, in the evening when they arrived there.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, in your statement, paragraph -- well,
25 second paragraph on page 3 of the English and the second paragraph on
1 page 3 of the B/C/S, you mentioned that after the police came in to
2 Tushile and kept you there for a couple of hours, they separated the men,
3 and about 1.500 of the men were sent to Skenderaj or Srbica town and
4 questioned at the school there. How did you know that's what happened to
5 those men?
6 A. I saw them, my brother, that they were split when they sent us
7 from Tushile, and I saw people there, and they were there. They were --
8 men were separated from the women, sisters and women from their children.
9 I saw them with my own eyes that they were split.
10 Q. Okay. And I understand that. After they were separated though,
11 how did you know where they were taken and the fact that they were
12 questioned at the school? Did you see that or did you find out about it
14 A. I learned about it later.
15 Q. Who from?
16 A. My brother, people who had came back. They had told me that they
17 questioned them, and when they were released -- in fact, they were
18 released later, but this happened during that time.
19 Q. Now, in describing what happened in Tushile that day, you say the
20 police came first and then the military in vehicles and tanks. Later on
21 in the next paragraph you say that after they kept you there for a couple
22 of hours they told you to go to Klina. When you say "they," who was that?
23 Was that the military or the police or both, if you know?
24 A. When we were in Tushile it was the police there, and it is a
25 mountain. It is a mountainous area there. We did not see them. But how
1 can I tell you? There were police all along the road, the military, until
2 they reached the asphalt road, and then we continued our road.
3 Q. I'm not sure if I made myself clear, but who was it that told you
4 and the other Kosovo Albanian villagers you were with to go to Klina?
5 A. No one told me personally, but the convoy had no where else to go.
6 The convoy was not allowed to go anywhere else. It had to go towards
7 Klina, and that's how -- when we started off.
8 Q. In the next two paragraphs in your statement, you explain how as
9 you were -- as the convoy was heading back toward Klina you decided to go
10 to your home, to your village, and you stayed there for a couple of days
11 without any food, and that on -- the next paragraph, that on the 1st of
12 April the police came, you and some women tried to flee and they caught
13 about 40 of you and told you to go to Klina. Did those police tell you
14 why you should go to Klina or what you were supposed to do when you got
16 A. When returned on the 29th from Tushile. I -- the road goes
17 through Turiceve, and I was with my brother's wife, the three children,
18 their three children. There was no one else there. We stayed in a garage
19 of my home. There were other people whom I didn't know of. It was
20 raining. It was bad weather.
21 After two days the military came into our houses, to the burnt
22 houses. We had to leave, and it was about hundred to 150 metres that the
23 police surrounded us and asked us to stop. We stopped. They surrounded
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Please. Please. You were asked quite a specific
1 question, which was did the police tell you why you should go to Klina or
2 what you were supposed to do when you got there? Now, can you answer that
3 question, please?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they did not tell us. We were
5 just told to go toward the road to Klina.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 Mr. Hannis.
8 MR. HANNIS:
9 Q. And I should advise you that your written statement and your prior
10 testimony from the Milosevic trial are in evidence in this case, and
11 that's the reason I may be seeming to skip over some parts that may be
12 important for you. But do understand that that evidence is in evidence in
13 this case.
14 Now, you mention in that paragraph on page 3 of the English, the
15 next to the last paragraph on the page, and in the B/C/S the fourth page
16 [sic] down on page 3, you mention that three people were killed in your
17 village that day. What do you know about that as far as who was killed,
18 how they were killed, by whom?
19 A. On that day these people were killed in the village of Turiceve.
20 On that day I just heard about them. After I returned there, they were at
21 the same place. Their bodies were at the same place. And one of them was
22 from another village. I can't remember the name. And -- but the family
23 of one of the people was in the convoy.
24 Q. Was it men or women; do you know?
25 A. They were all men, young people. One was a young person. The
1 others were old.
2 Q. In paragraph -- well, in the English page 4, starting in the
3 fourth paragraph, and in the B/C/S on page 4 with the second paragraph for
4 the next four or five paragraphs, you describe the rest of your exodus out
5 of Kosovo; that first you went to Klina on foot, from Klina by truck to
6 Volujak, and the rest of the way on foot to Gjakova, and eventually to the
7 border crossing at Qafa e Prushit. I hope my pronunciation can be
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did I correctly describe the -- if we could put an exhibit up --
11 well, if we could have P615, which is the Kosovo atlas, and at page 17
12 first of all.
13 Ms. Fazliu, I'm going to ask you to look at a map that will appear
14 on your screen shortly.
15 And -- yes, if we could scroll down a little further. That's
17 Do you -- do you recognise the area that's depicted on that map on
18 the screen in front of you? Do we need to enlarge it?
19 A. No, no need to enlarge it.
20 Q. Do you see your village there on the map, Turicevac?
21 I think we need to scroll down now a little bit since we've
22 enlarged it.
23 A. No.
24 Q. I think when we enlarged, we lost it. I'm sorry, could we move
25 the map down. Thank you. A little farther, please.
1 A. Yes, I can see it now. I can see Turiceve now.
2 Q. And a little farther, please. There's one other place I would
3 want to see, if we could go -- farther. Move the map to the left. I said
4 that wrong. Could we move the map to the right. And move down slightly.
5 A little farther so we can see Klina at the bottom. Thank you.
6 Now, do you see your village? I'm going to ask the usher --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- to help you. If you can use a pen there, you can touch the
9 screen and actually draw on the screen. If you could do that for us.
10 Would you please circle your village of Turicevac?
11 A. Turiceve is here, in that part here.
12 Q. And Tushile, where you went to on the 29th, do you see that on the
13 map? And if so, could you draw a circle around it as well?
14 A. Yes, Tushile can be in that part here.
15 Q. And then could you draw a circle around Klina for us, where you
16 went to after Tushile?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Could we have a screen shot of that then save it as
19 the next IC.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC11, Your Honours.
21 MR. HANNIS:
22 Q. And then if we could, when we're ready, if we can move south on
23 the map.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Is the usher back again.
25 MR. HANNIS: Not just yet.
1 Q. On the map can you now see Volujak? Or please pronounce it for
3 A. Volujak, yes.
4 Q. You don't need to draw a circle on that just yet. I would like to
5 go to another map now. If we could go to page 22 of the Kosovo atlas.
6 A. I see --
7 Q. We're going to show you another map. And I think if we could
8 go -- yes, to the top of the map along the railroad track. And that's --
9 that's good.
10 Ma'am, can you see Volujak on this map?
11 A. Volujak is at the entry, exit to Klina, some kilometres away,
12 probably three to four, up to five kilometres maximum. Volujak is here.
13 Volujak is at number 5.
14 Q. Yes. And could we shrink the map? I would like to show a larger
15 area on this map before I ask her to mark anything.
16 And you see Gjakova on this map?
17 A. Yes. Yes.
18 Q. Could you use the pen to draw a circle around Volujak and Gjakova
19 for us.
20 A. [Marks].
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. HANNIS: Could we have a screen shot and save that as IC, the
23 next number?
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit IC12, Your Honours.
25 MR. HANNIS:
1 Q. And finally one more, if we could. It's page 21 of the Kosovo
2 atlas. I hope. Yes. If we could go farther south on the map. And then
3 to the east. To the -- yes. All right. I'm sorry, I am afraid this
4 doesn't show what I hoped to show.
5 But regarding the point where you crossed the border into Albania,
6 you mentioned that you had followed the people who were leaving from the
7 Gjakova area because you believe they would know the shortest way out of
8 town to get to the border; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you mentioned that on the last part of your journey you had to
11 climb a very steep hill, and the old and the sick people had to be left
12 behind when you got there. Do you know what happened to the old people
13 and the sick people from your convoy who couldn't go up the steep hill?
14 A. As far as this convoy, the wife of my uncle and we -- we couldn't
15 go any further because we couldn't get any help, and then the other -- the
16 other people came after us.
17 Q. And finally, if I could show the witness Exhibit P18.
18 Ma'am, can you recognise what area is shown on that map?
19 A. Yes. It's Gjakova, Qafa e Prushit, the part here that I can see,
20 that I travelled.
21 Q. Yes. Can you see on that map where -- where you started from in
22 your village, went to Tushile, Klina, Volujak, Gjakova and to
23 Qafa e Prushit? Are all those depicted on that map?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions for this witness, Your
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
4 Mr. O'Sullivan.
5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I have no questions. We will
6 proceed in this order: General Lukic, General Lazarevic, General Ojdanic,
7 Mr. Sainovic, and General Pavkovic.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Fazliu. My name is Branko
13 Lukic, and together with Mr. Ivetic and Mr. Ogrizovic we represent the
14 Defence of Mr. Lukic before this Tribunal.
15 I'm going to try and ask concise questions, and therefore I'd like
16 to ask you to give concise answers for us to perhaps be able to get
17 through the cross-examination by the end of the day.
18 Can you hear me? Can you understand the interpretation that
19 you're receiving?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You were born in the village of Turicevac, and that's where you
22 lived; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You worked in the book shop in Prizren; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. How long did you work in the book shop in Prizren?
2 A. I worked there for about six years.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters would kindly ask for the witness to
4 sit closer to the microphone, please.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Fazliu, it would be helpful if you could come a
6 little closer to the microphone. Thank you very much.
7 Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. Could you tell me up until what date you worked in the book shop
10 in Prizren?
11 A. You mean the date or the year?
12 Q. The year will do.
13 A. I worked there until 1989.
14 Q. Thank you. Although you didn't work after 1989, did you in 1998
15 and 1999 move around on roads outside the village in which you lived?
16 I apologise, but I did not hear the answer.
17 A. When I needed to go somewhere else for my personal needs.
18 Q. Did you in travelling along those roads come across any
20 A. Yes. The normal police were there. In those years I have not
21 come across any.
22 Q. And did you have any problems at these checkpoints?
23 A. At that time, in fact, I went out very rarely.
24 Q. Very well. Thank you. Did you come across any blockades
25 organised by the KLA in 1998 and 1999 along those roads?
1 A. No, I have not met or had any knowledge of that, because we left
2 our homes -- until we left our homes.
3 Q. You say you left your home in March 1998; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you say you left your home because of the Jashari incident; is
6 that right?
7 A. I was not aware of the case of Jashari at the time. The police
8 came from Klina to the part where I live, and then I learned about it the
9 next day.
10 Q. When the police came to your village, what happened?
11 A. On 5 March when the police came, they stopped at Koder of Broj. We
12 left because there were police with heavy armament, and that's why we
14 Q. Does that mean that the police did not in fact enter your village?
15 A. On the day -- on that day the police entered the village, because
16 I live closer to Broj, and women and children were -- remained at the Broj
17 in Turiceve and the police stopped them there, but we left in the
18 direction of Padalishte in another village.
19 Q. And how far is Padaliste from your own village?
20 A. It was about 12 to 13 kilometres. The road of Mitrovica and
21 Peja. But where I am, it is not an asphalt road. It is a very small
22 street, not many kilometres.
23 Q. In paragraph 4 on page 2 of the English version, or paragraph 3 on
24 page 2 of the Albanian version, or paragraph 4 on page 2 of the B/C/S, you
25 speak about the KLA, and you say the following: "During the war in 1999,
1 there were people from this village who were members of the KLA. They had
2 headquarters in the village which was situated at the school. I don't
3 know how many there were because people were joining all -- joining up all
4 the time."
5 Would 2.500 KLA members be about the right figure?
6 A. No. I don't know about any figures, because I was not at the
7 school to see them. I don't know how many there were, but I know that
8 there were some of them.
9 Q. Did children go to school at that time?
10 A. The school in the place where I lived was interrupted a year ago.
11 I told you the cases. We were refugees. There were no schools. We could
12 stay -- I was able to stay two -- from two to three days at home.
13 Q. Does that mean that from time to time you would go to your own
14 home and then leave?
15 A. When I left I was not at home for three months. Not only me, but
16 every other member of the family did so. I was sheltered in Padalishte.
17 We returned after three to four days, and we could not -- I could not have
18 stayed at home. I tried to stay at home, but I was not able to do so.
19 Q. Was the reason for you not being able to stay in your own house
20 the conflict between the KLA and the Serb forces?
21 A. At the time we are talking about in 1998, there was no KLA at the
22 school in Turiceve. I told you about the case of Prekaz. I was not aware
23 that the KLA existed. This happened afterwards, some months after, after
24 several months. Now I can't recall exactly how many months.
25 Q. Did you see or hear that in 1998 and 1999 that there was an attack
1 launched by KLA members against police checkpoints?
2 A. No, I have not heard about police checkpoints. There were police
3 checkpoints, but I did not hear that there were attacks against those
4 checkpoints, because I was not there.
5 Q. You say you weren't there. You had to have been somewhere. Where
6 were you from March 1998 onwards?
7 A. I was in Padalishte, and I told you that we could not leave the
8 area. Then we went to Mitrovica, into a quarter there in the suburbs. We
9 remained there for a long time, but we could -- was not allowed to go
10 anywhere else. We had to shelter somewhere because we had no possibility
11 to go back.
12 Q. But you say that in 1999 you weren't in your village either.
13 A. I'm telling you that we were away because of the offensives. We
14 had no place where to stay in our homes because there were police
15 checkpoints in Broj and Turiceve. They were firing at us. They were
16 firing at everything they could see. We had no place where to stay at our
17 homes. The schools was not -- the schools were not operating for a year,
18 even after the war. Even in the 1998 there was no school in Turiceve.
19 Q. Let me ask you this: Was the KLA in your village in 1999 or the
20 police? Why weren't you able to stay in your village? Because of which?
21 A. Because of the police. Because when they were deployed on the 5th
22 of March, 1998, a relative of mine was killed on the same day, and we had
23 to stay for a month or two in Broj. So we were scared to remain in the
25 Q. It is your testimony today that in the same village there were
1 both the KLA with their headquarters there as well as the police?
2 A. Later -- the army came later. The checkpoints were removed in
3 Turiceve, in Broj, and then the army -- the police checkpoints were in
4 Jashanice. We were offered ...
5 Q. I apologise. It seems from the interpretation that you were
6 offered something. By whom and what was offered?
7 A. I do not understand the question. I said we were close. We were
8 very close. I didn't say "offered." I said we were close.
9 Q. Thank you. Close to what?
10 A. I personally am not understanding the question. Jashanice is
11 close to Turiceve. Jashanice is not very far. Is this what you mean?
12 Q. I just wanted to ask you to clarify. Perhaps we had a problem
13 with interpretation, but I believe it is clear now.
14 Between Jashanice and Turicevac, was there an area in 1999 that
15 was in the hands of the Serb forces?
16 A. This area was in the hands of Serbs from 1998 to 1999 when we
17 left. The area was in the hands of Serbs all the time until we left.
18 Q. Therefore, to the best of your knowledge, the area around your
19 village was not under the authority of the KLA?
20 A. The road to Klina, Skenderaj, until -- to my village, to Kline and
21 Turiceve there were Serb forces deployed in Turiceve. There was a police
22 checkpoint. We call it Koder e Brojes. It is the entire village as it
23 can be seen. From there you can see Turiceve and the hills. It is a very
24 high hill there. And there were also checkpoints at Jashanice, but I
25 don't know where the checkpoints were at Jashanice. I've just heard about
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Again, that isn't an answer to the question,
3 Ms. Fazliu. The question was whether any part of the area around your
4 village was under the authority of the KLA.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This was a short time that the
6 KLA was there. As I've told you, I don't know when they left. I can't
7 remember the date when the forces left the Koder e Brojes until the last
8 offensive, when they torched the villages and then we left for Albania.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: The reason you're being asked these questions is
10 because in your statement you say that the KLA had a headquarters in the
11 village, and Mr. Lukic wants to know what period they were active in your
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the last month, because in the
14 village of Turiceve they were there for a very short time. I don't know
15 for what period, how long this period lasted, because I haven't been in
16 Turiceve. I don't know how long the KLA was stationed there.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Is your village within the Cicavica area?
21 A. No.
22 Q. What area is your village in, then, what region?
23 A. In the region of Drenica, but it's not on the part of Cicavica.
24 It is on the part of Kline and it is included in the Dukagjin area.
25 Between Skenderaj and Kline.
1 Q. In the entire region of Drenica in 1998 and in 1999, were the KLA
2 forces present in great numbers?
3 A. No, there weren't many forces. I just can tell you only about the
4 part where I live, because Drenica covers a larger area. It includes
5 municipalities. And I can tell you only about the territory where I live.
6 I don't know about the other areas.
7 Q. In the English page 2, the last paragraph, as well as the first
8 paragraph on the third page, in the Albanian, page 3, paragraph 2, and in
9 the B/C/S, page 2, the last paragraph. There you state that you stayed in
10 a tent in Tushile and that you spent three days there and that the forces
11 arrived on the 29th of March, 1999, at 8.00 a.m. "They came on foot and
12 they surrounded us. As they approached, they were shooting at us."
13 Was anyone killed or wounded?
14 A. Yes, I've seen many injured. One of them was bloodstained. I
15 haven't seen any other -- I haven't seen any dead people there.
16 Q. In your statement, you didn't mention anyone being wounded or
17 injured in that incident.
18 A. Because there was a time when we suffered traumas even after the
19 war. And it's not that I have not told them exactly what I saw, but it is
20 as far as I could remember.
21 Q. I would like to move to another topic. In the English this is
22 page 3, paragraph 3, in the Albanian this is page 3, paragraph 4, in the
23 B/C/S, page 3, paragraph 2. There you mention 1.500 men who were
24 separated from their families and sent to Srbica where they were
25 questioned in the school building. How long did those men stay in the
1 school building?
2 A. I saw people there. I can tell it to you approximately. It can
3 be longer. I can tell you when they separated, my brother and his son
4 from us, and they sent us in the direction of Skenderaj. I had no other
5 contact with them on the day I left. I learned about it later.
6 Q. Who did you learn it from at a later stage?
7 A. When I returned from Albania I learned about it, because all the
8 time I did not know what happened to my family because the family was
9 separated. I didn't know whether they were alive. So these -- I learned
10 about it only after the completion of the war. It was only then when I
11 learned things about my family.
12 Q. You live with that brother and his family, don't you?
13 A. I've lived with them, but not anymore.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: I certainly have not understood clearly that they
15 were -- they were separated at that stage and you didn't see them again
16 until after the war? Is that what you're saying?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about my family here, my
18 own family. I did not see them until I returned after the war.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but does that include your brother?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's includes my brother.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: The answer to that question was yes, that that
22 includes your brother, was it?
23 MR. LUKIC: We heard "jo" --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I heard "jo," which I thought was "no." I mean,
25 that's why I'm asking. The interpreter has interpreted it as yes, that
1 includes my brother, but the answer I heard was "jo."
2 Now could we have that clarified. When the 1.500 men were
3 separated from their families, when did you next see your brother?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw my brother only after the war.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: I must say I didn't get that impression from the
6 presentation of the evidence. Should I have picked that up, Mr. Hannis,
7 from the statement and --
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't think I asked her specifically
9 when she learned from her brother about the fact that they had been
10 questioned at the school. Just that it happened but not when she learned.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
12 Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if these questions are really helping you.
15 MR. LUKIC: I just want to clarify whether her brother is alive or
16 not. I think that we have the answer now that he is okay.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. You also have no knowledge of any of the 1.500 being killed that
20 day they were interrogated?
21 A. I heard about it only I returned that there were some young men,
22 and there were eight young men, and I know them personally, when they were
23 separated, because everybody then left for their homes, and I heard that
24 they were killed. This thing I know for sure. I don't know any further
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic, I have to ask myself why you
2 ask these questions.
3 MR. LUKIC: Maybe I've been misled by this statement we received
4 from the Prosecution.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it doesn't say anybody was killed. If I was
6 defending Mr. Lukic, I think I'd be content with that.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. [In English]
8 Bear with me, Your Honour, just one moment.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: If you're finished with that subject, I have one
10 question on it for the witness.
11 Have you ever seen any of these eight young men since?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They belonged to my mother's family,
13 and I know them personally because they belong to my family. I know them.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: But have you seen any sign of any of them since the
15 day they were separated from the women?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have not seen them. These were
17 people who were killed.
18 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I really don't know how to proceed with
19 these kind of statements, because I really feel that I've been misled. We
20 can't find this kind of data in these statements, and I'm not able to
21 proceed based on the statement I have in front of me.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: But it's such a vague statement as it exists from
23 the Prosecution that it's really impossible to imagine any significant
24 point being drawn from it until you start asking for more details and the
25 details start get filled out. Is that what you want?
1 I mean, the Prosecution had even failed to show to me, until you
2 started asking questions, that these people didn't return until after the
3 war. I thought they had returned the following day and told the story to
4 the witness, and I can't see how that would be much of a crime for anyone
5 to face here.
6 MR. LUKIC: I probably have one more question and I'll finish
7 after that.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Carry on with that question, please.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. In the English page 5, paragraph 1, in the Albanian page 5,
11 paragraph 4, in the B/C/S, page 4, paragraph 5 you state there: "We left
12 Djakovica and started moving towards the border crossing of
13 Qafa e Prushit. We crossed the border on the same day of the 4th of
14 April, 1999. On the way from Djakovica to Krajnica [phoen], there were
15 many soldiers and everyone of us tried to take as good care as possible of
16 their families -- of our families."
17 What soldiers were there with their families?
18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't understand it to say that there
19 were soldiers there with their families. I understand it to say the
20 witness was talking about taking care of their own families.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "Along the way there were many
22 soldiers, and everyone tried to take care of their respective families."
23 That's why I wanted the witness to explain.
24 Q. What soldiers and what families?
25 A. Here it is a question of everybody's families. Like I about my
1 own family, other people about their own families. I did not say I saw
2 soldiers and their families.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: It goes on to say: "Nothing happened to us on this
4 part of the journey."
5 MR. LUKIC: I shouldn't explore any further.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: I mean, it's quite clear here that the immediate
7 reason for movement at that point is NATO, fear of NATO.
8 MR. LUKIC: I have no more questions, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
10 Now, does any other counsel have questions for this witness?
11 MR. PETROVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: So we'll resume that on Monday, then.
13 MR. PETROVIC: Probably, Your Honour. It depends on the Trial
15 MR. HANNIS: For scheduling purposes, could we get a rough idea
16 from the remaining Defence counsel how long cross-exam might take, to know
17 when to have the second witness here.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, how many more Defence counsel have to
19 cross-examine the witness?
20 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will have to consult
21 with my colleagues, but we'll need perhaps quarter of an hour, maybe even
23 JUDGE BONOMY: And Mr. Cepic, how long will you need?
24 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, up to 10 minutes.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
1 Well, Mr. Hannis, you certainly need some other witnesses here on
2 Monday, and it looks as though they should be here first thing.
3 MR. HANNIS: We'll have them.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.
5 Ms. Fazliu, I'm afraid we have to interrupt your evidence at this
6 point and you will have to return to complete it on Monday. The evidence
7 will commence at 9.00 on Monday, so you need to be back in time to start
8 your evidence then. You should not be here for long. Sometime fairly
9 early in the morning you'll be free of the court.
10 Meanwhile, until then, I have to require that you do not, I stress
11 not, discuss your evidence with anyone, and that means either the evidence
12 you've given or any evidence that you are likely to give on Monday. So
13 when you're talking to people, as I'm sure you will be over the weekend,
14 which I hope you enjoy, please keep off the subject of your evidence. Do
15 you understand?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Thank you.
18 Well, we'll adjourn now and shall resume at 9.00 on Monday.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day
21 of August, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.