1 Wednesday, 6 September 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Shaqiri.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: We will continue with the evidence now. I remind
9 you that the solemn declaration you made at the beginning of your evidence
10 continues to apply to that evidence today.
11 Mr. Ackerman.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 WITNESS: ABDYLHAQIM SHAQIRI [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman: [Continued]
16 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, we -- we're going again today and I'm afraid we have
17 a long way to go. Again, let me just remind you that I'm going to try to
18 ask questions that you can answer easily and quickly. If you don't
19 understand them, let me know and I'll rephrase them, and let's see if we
20 can get through this as quickly as possible. Okay?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness be asked to speak into the
22 microphone, please?
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Shaqiri, could you make sure your voice is
24 directed towards the microphones, please. We'll have them adjusted
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. ACKERMAN:
3 Q. Yesterday when -- right near the end of your testimony, Mr.
4 Hannis showed you a document that was some kind of an interview report
5 either from the OSCE or the ICG. And you told us that you recognised it,
6 that it had your name on it, and that in fact you had signed it. And it's
7 about that report right now that I want to ask you just a couple of
8 questions. In the supplemental information sheet that we were provided by
9 the Prosecutor, that indicates that you told them here on the 28th of
10 August that that statement you gave to the -- to the Crisis Group or to the
11 OSCE, that you were exhausted when you gave that statement - correct - or
12 that interview?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And would I be correct in assuming that you're telling us you
15 were exhausted when you gave that interview so that we would understand
16 that some of the things you said in there may not be correct, that you said
17 them just because you were exhausted?
18 A. No, that's not correct.
19 Q. So the things you said during that interview were to the best of
20 your knowledge at that time the truth about what you'd observed and what
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And as far as I know --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And as far as I know, that interview was the first account that
1 you gave to any outside party, any other organisation about the experiences
2 you'd had in Kosovo and getting out of Kosovo. Is that true?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And apparently this statement was given like maybe the day you
5 came to Macedonia or a day later. Is that true?
6 A. Two days later.
7 Q. All right. Now, one of the things that's -- that's contained in
8 that is the interviewer says, and to be fair to you I think it's important
9 that you hear exactly what the interviewer said. "Villagers heard soldiers
10 speaking Russian."
11 Did you tell the interviewer that you had heard soldiers speaking
12 Russian or that other villagers told you that they had heard soldiers
13 speaking Russian?
14 A. This is the first time for me to hear that.
15 Q. So you didn't notice this when you signed that interview form?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And do you know anything about any of the soldiers that were in
18 your village ever speaking Russian?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you have any idea how that got in this interview report if you
21 hadn't said it to the interviewer?
22 A. When I was talking with the three officers, the Serbian soldiers
23 and his colleagues, the other officers, referred to him by the name of
24 Russ, not the population, but the soldiers called him Russ, meaning Russian
25 in Albanian. He was a Serbian officer, but a nickname by which he was
1 known was Russ.
2 Q. All right. Also in this same interview report, you're talking
3 about the events of 6th April of 1999. According to the interviewer you
4 said that there were a line of about 3.000 people standing on the main road
5 who were threatened at gunpoint by approximately 100 paramilitaries. Is
6 that what you told the interviewer?
7 A. No.
8 Q. According to this report you told the interviewer that at about
9 2.00 in the afternoon on the 6th of April, you left your village and went
10 toward Bujanovac. That's correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So of the things that I've mentioned that were in that report,
15 they were all wrong except that one that we just talked about; true?
16 A. The last one is correct. The first, I don't remember.
17 Q. Well, you don't remember or they're wrong? I think you told me
18 it was wrong that the villagers heard someone speaking Russian and wrong
19 that the group was threatened by a hundred paramilitaries at gunpoint.
20 A. I'd like to make an explanation, sir.
21 Q. Go ahead.
22 A. I talked only with the officers, with the Serbian officers. On
23 the western side of the village, however, there were Serbian soldiers who
24 looted and raided the village. Nobody said that they spoke Russian; they
25 did speak Serbian. As to what you are putting to me, that 100 soldiers or
1 so looted the village, that is true. This occurred only on the western
2 side of the village, but the eastern side of the village was left intact;
3 this is the truth.
4 Q. I want to go to the first statement that you gave to the Office
5 of the Prosecutor, that was the statement of 25 April 1999. And I'm going
6 to refer to that along with some of the testimony you gave here yesterday.
7 At page 6 of yesterday's testimony, beginning at line 21, you were telling
8 us about the 6th of April in your village, Prilepnica. You were at your
9 mother's house, and you -- you told us yesterday, quoting: "I heard gun-
10 fire from all sides in Prilepnica."
11 Do you remember saying that in your testimony yesterday?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Then you were asked by Mr. Hannis what you did when you heard
14 that gun-fire, and you said this, quoting again your testimony: "For the
15 moment I was stunned, and after talking with some of my relatives I decided
16 to go in the direction of the southern part of the village from where the
17 gun-shot was heard."
18 Now, the first question I have about that is: You say you walked
19 toward where the gun-shot was heard. Did you mean to say that you'd only
20 heard one gun-shot and not multiple gun-shots?
21 A. The shots came from all sides, and there were many shots, not
22 just one. And I and some others set out in the direction of the south,
23 which is at the entrance to the village because this is where most of the
24 shots came from. And in this situation, people of course are scared. And
25 my friend stopped somewhere and I continued my way along. After walking 5
1 or 600 metres I ran into the first soldier with the two hostages that I
2 mentioned, Nazim Xhelil and Shefik Shaqiri.
3 Q. You told us now that the villagers were afraid. You weren't
4 afraid since you walked absolutely in the direction where the most shooting
5 was happening, so you were not afraid. Is that correct?
6 A. I was too scared, but someone had to go and talk to those people,
7 and I found the way to talk with them, but as to fear, I was very much
9 Q. In your statement to the OTP of 25 April 1999, and it's at
10 paragraph 9 of that statement, you told the interviewer then, back in 1999,
11 shortly after these events, that when you walked into the village that you
12 saw two soldiers who had arrested two villagers. In your testimony here
13 yesterday, at page 7, line 5, you said it was only one soldier. Now, can
14 you tell us how it would have been two soldiers in April of 1999 and one
15 soldier yesterday? How did that change happen?
16 A. There were several soldiers, sir, but near the hostages there was
17 only one, the one who was threatening them with his gun. But the other
18 soldiers were standing some 10 or 15 metres away. I can't give you the
19 exact figure, but there were many soldiers.
20 Q. All right, sir, that's my fault. I wasn't specific enough with
21 the question I asked you. In your statement of April of 1999, a statement
22 which you told me yesterday that you signed after it had been read to you,
23 the exact language of that statement regarding what you said is this: "I
24 saw two soldiers in Serbian army uniforms who had arrested two villagers."
25 Yesterday, describing that same incident, you saw one soldier who
1 had arrested two villagers. My question is: Why did that change between
2 April of 1999 and yesterday?
3 A. The first time I remembered better how many soldiers were there,
4 for the moment I didn't remember the soldier that was a little bit further
5 away. What mattered to me was the conversation I had with -- with one of
6 the soldiers. So I gave the answer, thinking of the person I talked to
7 because that was the question: With whom did I talk? And I said I talked
8 with one soldier, and the question was not how many soldiers I saw, at
9 least this is the way I understood the question put to me.
10 Q. All right. At -- at one point you said that these villagers were
11 being held for ransom. What was the ransom demand that was being made?
12 MR. HANNIS: Could we have a reference to the ransom?
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that's -- if you don't get it now, Mr.
14 Hannis, we'll get it later.
15 MR. HANNIS: Well, I'm asking for it now because I remember
16 hostage and not ransom.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I failed to make a note about it. I know
18 it's there. It's in the -- it's in the transcript from yesterday, page 8,
19 it looks like it's line 19. The soldier who was holding the two people
21 Q. Can you tell us why you said they were being held for ransom?
22 What was the ransom they were being held for?
23 A. They didn't tell me anything about being held for ransom. My
24 point was they being - they'd been kept hostages. They were kneeling on
25 the road, and the gun was pointed at them. That's what I meant by
2 Q. And they were hostages for what purpose? What was it that was
3 being demanded for their release?
4 A. I'm telling you, sir, Nazim Xhelili, when he saw me walking
5 there, he addressed me in a kind of loud voice: Come here, come over here
6 Hoxh because this is imam, I think. I don't know, they wanted someone to
7 talk to, and as to your question why did they hold them hostages, I don't
8 know. I have no information about that.
9 Q. Well, you used the word "hostage," not me, and maybe if you had
10 tended to use the prisoner, would that be more accurate? Rather than being
11 held hostages they were being held prisoner, because you said they had been
13 A. You used the word "prisoner." The meaning of the word "prisoner"
14 for me is when somebody is kept in a prison and not held at gun-point in
15 the street kneeling on the ground. That's the means of hostage, or ransom
16 - call it what you want - for me. I don't find any other word to use to
17 describe that scene. If there is any other word you might wish to use, you
18 can go ahead and use it.
19 Q. Thank you. I appreciate that permission. Do you know why these
20 two villagers had been arrested by these two soldiers?
21 A. According to the information I have, when the Serbian soldier
22 entered the village at around 8.00 they went into the villagers' homes and
23 had found people there. They had caught 100 or 150 villagers and shoved
24 them in a house. They had taken these two that I saw with them and brought
25 them to the centre of the village.
1 Q. But what -- what had they done, what crime had they committed,
2 that they were arrested? Why were they arrested?
3 A. They were beaten and brought to that place by the soldiers. As
4 to the reason why, it's the soldiers who know that; I don't know it.
5 Q. All right. You told us yesterday that in addition to the soldier
6 or soldiers that were holding these two people, that there were 12 or 15
7 other soldiers nearby. That's page 8, line 4. And then you were asked
8 this by Mr. Hannis at line 16: "Did you see any kind of insignia or badges
9 or markings of rank on any of these uniforms?"
10 And your answer was this, quoting you: "No, no. They didn't
11 have any rankings that I saw."
12 How about badges, did you see any badges?
13 A. I don't remember to have seen any.
14 Q. In that 1999 statement that you gave to the Prosecutor's office,
15 which you must have had a chance to review before you started testifying
16 here yesterday, you said that these people were wearing "olive-drab uniform
17 of the regular Serbian army, black beret, with a badge with semicircles
18 similar to Srpska Garda."
19 Do you remember saying that?
20 A. No, I haven't said this. I never mentioned any markings or any
21 black beret.
22 Q. Are you suggesting that that was not in your statement of April
23 of 1999, or will you take my word for it that it was in your statement?
24 A. The first sentence that the colour was olive-green-grey uniform,
25 it's true; as to what they were wearing on their hats or the markings or
1 insignia, this I never said. So it's partially true.
2 Q. Would it surprise you that that language is in your statement
3 that you read and signed?
4 MR. HANNIS: Well, he didn't read it, Your Honour, it was read to
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I agree with that.
7 Q. It was read to you and then you signed it. Would it surprise you
8 that language was contained in that statement which you said was true to
9 the best of your recollection just a few days after this event?
10 A. If you talk about berets, no matter what colour they were or any
11 rankings or insignia, that is not my sentence, neither at that time nor
12 now. That would certainly surprise me if you put it to me.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Is there a copy of this statement that could be
14 given to the witness so that he could look at -- give him the B/C/S because
15 I know where he can find it in the B/C/S and he can read that.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you can give it to me in
18 Serbo-Croatian as well.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: That's what I said. I should have said "Serbo-
20 Croatian." We call it "B/C/S" here for convenience.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: It's P2288, if you want to put it on the screen.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: I understood it was not in the system, Your
23 Honour, but if it's in the system --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Was that not the interview that the witness was
1 referred to yesterday?
2 MR. ACKERMAN: No. This is the one with the OTP. The one
3 yesterday was the ICG --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, sorry, the 25th of April one you're talking
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, I'm sorry.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: We have a copy. We've given it to him, Your
10 Q. Now, I think you're going to find it --
11 A. This is in English, what I have in front of me. I don't
12 understand English.
13 Q. I don't know why you got English. That won't help you, will it?
14 A. You should give it to me in Albanian or in Serbo-Croatian, that I
15 can understand.
16 Q. We're trying to find one in Serbo-Croatian for you.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: We have it here if the usher will come get it.
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 MR. ACKERMAN:
20 Q. There's a full paragraph there near the bottom of the page, the
21 12th paragraph. You should find in there that it says that you said: "...
22 black beret with a badge with semicircles similar to Srpska Garda."
23 Let me know if you find that.
24 A. I found it.
25 Q. And it even indicates that the interviewer showed you some kind
1 of a badge that was similar to the one that you claimed to have seen,
2 doesn't it?
3 A. The emblems or the caps that are mentioned here was shown to me -
4 - were in a -- on a picture. And the question asked of me was: Do you
5 recognise these uniforms or helmets? I said: Yes, but I didn't mean that
6 they were the ones that belonged to the soldiers that I mentioned. It's a
8 Q. Okay. So when that was read back to you so you'd have a chance
9 to correct any misunderstandings, you just missed that?
10 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, that assumes it was read back to
11 him correctly.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: I think we have to assume that, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Are we not entitled to assume that?
14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, he already indicated previously in his
15 testimony that he had a problem with that interpreter not being very good.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a matter --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was read the statement in
18 Albanian at that time by the interpreter, who was from Macedonia. And I
19 never saw it after that.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: These are matters for -- for submission and
21 assessment at the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with the question
22 being posed on the assumption that the reading back was accurate. If you
23 want to prove otherwise in due course, Mr. Hannis, it will be open to you
24 to prove that the Prosecution witness statements were not being read back
1 Mr. Ackerman.
2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it was only because in this case he had
3 made a specific reference to this interpreter.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that, Mr. Hannis, but we're going to
5 get this repeatedly, I suspect, in light of the way in which these
6 statements were taken.
7 Carry on, Mr. Ackerman.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, just for record purposes, I'll remind
9 Your Honours that this is the second time that we've had that kind of
10 reaction that the statement must have been read back improperly. The first
11 time the claim was it was read back too fast, and if we can't rely on these
12 statements -- on these averments at the end of these statements that are
13 signed under oath that it was read back to him and he can understand it,
14 then what can we rely on? If that's going to be the Prosecutor's position,
15 then I don't know that we can ever rely on a 92 bis statement or any other
17 JUDGE BONOMY: It's difficult for it to be the Prosecutor's
18 position, Mr. Ackerman, if he's presenting these statements taken by his
19 office and then leading the evidence. So if he wishes to undermine them,
20 then he'll need to take steps to see that that's done properly.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. I was trying to refer not to a black beret, but I'm trying to
23 refer to this badge with semicircles similar to Srpska Garda. Now, I find
24 it hard to believe that that would be a mistake going into your statement,
25 that someone would put in a badge with semicircles similar to Srpska Garda
1 if you hasn't said that?
2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that mischaracterises his testimony.
3 He was asked if he recognised it and he said yes, he recognised it. He
4 said the mistake was them reporting it was worn to one of the soldiers he
5 was talking to.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Well --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, he has given evidence, Mr. Ackerman, that
8 all he was asked was whether he recognised what was shown to him and he
9 said he did and he didn't relate that to the particular soldiers that he's
10 been giving evidence about or about whom he was talking about in his
11 statement. Now, that's his explanation.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, that -- that tends to conflict
13 with the statement, and let me read this to the witness --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, indeed, of course it conflicts with the
15 statement. You may never square the circle.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: I may not, Your Honour. I'll give up.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: What has to be borne in mind here, Mr. Hannis, is
18 that -- Mr. Ackerman, is that Mr. Hannis may be content at the end of the
19 day with the explanations that the witness gives, no matter frustrated you
20 may turn out to be because of the results that this exercise produces. On
21 the other hand, there may be more acute circumstances in which the
22 disagreement is such that the Prosecutor has to make his mind up whether he
23 concedes that the witness is telling two different tales or whether he
24 seeks to advance an explanation which can only be advanced if further
25 evidence is called. So these are difficult things to make final judgements
1 on at this stage, but this is one good example probably of a situation
2 where the Chamber would have to evaluate the context in which both the
3 statement itself and the evidence were given and all of the surrounding
4 circumstances and assess whether what we are hearing in court is a reliable
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll move on to another area, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what -- yes, I'm reminded that this
8 particular document is not in the system. Now, it may be you wish to
9 introduce it and now would be the time, I suppose, to do that.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: We tried quite hard to get it into the system last
11 night, Your Honour, and failed.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: We got all the rest of them in, but for some
14 reason a communication problem of some kind.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, first of all do you wish to introduce it
16 into evidence here?
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, in that case we'll take the hard copy and
19 give it an IC number for the moment in anticipation that you'll tidy the
20 record up by introducing the electronic version in all the languages in
21 which it exists, and noting that that is the equivalent or the same as IC
22 whatever the number is given to it, so we don't get confused by the same
23 document having two different references.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: I can say it will go in as 4D10. Is that correct?
25 I think our last document is 4D9.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm told it's in the system as 4D5,
3 identified as transcript of handwritten notes. So maybe it is there.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think that's a matter for you to resolve
5 and you can sort it out with the registry rather than do it here. What we
6 will do for the moment is give the document the witness has been reading
7 from an IC number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC32, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. And let's carry on with the cross-
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Thanks, Your Honour. Your Honour, I promise I'll
12 get more familiar with e-court and these problems won't occur in the
13 future. I apologise for this little problem.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you are talking to the partially sighted, so
15 I understand the problem.
16 MR. ACKERMAN:
17 Q. Okay. Do you remember describing this soldier that was holding -
18 - or one of the soldiers that was holding these two people, describing his
19 uniform as having a bandanna on his head?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you describe that bandanna? What did it look like?
22 A. It was a black colour bandanna, tied on the back of his head,
23 nothing specific about it.
24 Q. All right. At one point fairly early in this conversation you
25 had with soldiers, they indicated to you that they wanted to search the
1 village and you told them that they were welcome to search the village if
2 they wanted to, didn't you?
3 A. No, I didn't talk with the soldiers but with a soldier in
5 Q. Okay. The same question I just asked you without the S on the
6 end of soldier. Did you talk to that soldier about KLA hiding in the
7 village and you told him they were welcome to search the village if they
8 wanted to? Isn't that what you said?
9 A. Not welcomed, but he ordered me to move out the village, and his
10 excuse was that the KLA add emerged in the village. If necessary, I can
11 say in B/C/S his words, I can quote him.
12 Q. Well, I don't want you to. I want you to answer my question, and
13 I'm going to tell you where to look. I want you to look in the statement
14 that you have in front of you on page 3, paragraph 2. And you should find
15 language to this effect. He had asked you about KLA, weapons, and
16 terrorists. You said this: "I told him that we had nothing of the kind,
17 but they were welcome to search if they wanted."
18 Now, is that what you said or not?
19 A. I said to them: There is no KLA, there are no weapons. I didn't
20 say: You're welcome. I told them: It is your right to search the
21 village, you can do that. There's no problem.
22 Q. Now my question is: Do you see that language in your statement
23 that says you told them they were welcome to search if they wanted? Do you
24 see it there in paragraph 3 on page 2?
25 A. I don't know where this paragraph is.
1 Q. I'm sorry, paragraph 2 -- page 2, paragraph 3.
3 A. I told them that there is nothing of that sort in our village,
4 but that they can search it if they wish.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 A. It hasn't been translated correctly. It's not that I said:
7 You're welcome to search. I did not say that they were welcome; I just
8 said if they wish.
9 Q. That's an interesting difference, and this is a -- this is a
10 statement that you told us yesterday was read over to you in Albanian and
11 that you signed it, swearing that upon your honour and conscience that it
12 accurately reflected your interview, didn't you?
13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that's been asked and answered.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I agree, Mr. Hannis.
15 Please move on, Mr. Ackerman.
16 MR. ACKERMAN:
17 Q. These two soldiers or one soldier, as you said yesterday,
18 eventually took you to someone that they called the commander, didn't they?
19 A. After I informed my people, using the loud-speaker from the
20 mosque, I met with this soldier, then we walked together for 200 metres.
21 And in the end of the village, there were the three officers or their
22 command, about 150 to 200 metres away.
23 Q. And you probably could have just said "yes" to my question and
24 we'd move along a little faster. Try to do that, if you can.
25 According to your statement, this commander told you: The
1 village is going to be bombed by NATO, that they're going to lay mines in
2 the village, it would be dangerous for you to stay there, and you would
3 have to leave. True?
4 A. Partly yes.
5 Q. What partly not? I'm just quoting from your statement mostly.
6 What's wrong about that?
7 A. We received information that this village would be shelled by
8 NATO. We will prevent that by all means available to us. And what you
9 just said in Albanian, how it was translated to me, it is a little bit
10 difficult -- different. So these are two different things: We have been
11 informed and: They are going to shell.
12 Q. All right. And you were told it would be dangerous to stay there
13 and you would have to leave; correct?
14 A. This is what they supposed would happen.
15 Q. Now, when you testified yesterday, page 18, line 24, you told us
16 that: "They said," I assume that's this commander, "that they were going
17 to mine the dam as well as the village and that that order came from above
18 and it was necessary for them to carry it out."
19 Now, which one of them was it that told you that?
20 A. The three officers that were there as well as the officer who was
21 present when we were encircled in Gjilan at the hospital, they used the
22 same sentence.
23 Q. So all three of them said that. Did they say it altogether or
25 A. No, not all of them together, separately. First one of them said
1 it, when the three officers were together.
2 Q. Which one? Who said it?
3 A. As for 6th of April, I don't know their names. I've only
4 described the officers.
5 Q. Well, you were talking to three officers and you told us: "They
6 said this ... " Did all of them say it or did just one of them say it?
7 "They" doesn't describe anybody? Who said it? The middle one? The left
8 one? The right one? Is it just one?
9 A. The one in the middle.
10 Q. And that's the one that also said: The order came from above and
11 it was necessary for them to carry it out; correct?
12 A. I mainly spoke to the one in the middle.
13 Q. And that's the one that said what I just quoted to you; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You never mentioned this mining of the dam or the order coming
16 from above in any of the prior statements you gave regarding these matters,
17 did you? Yesterday was the first time we'd heard that. Isn't that true?
18 A. It is correct, yes, because I don't remember if I mentioned this
19 or not when I gave my first statement.
20 Q. Well, you had a chance to review your first statement after you
21 came to The Hague for your testimony in this case, didn't you?
22 A. Yes. I had the chance, and as I said I made some corrections.
23 There were some technical mistakes.
24 Q. You did -- we're going to get to those. You didn't see this
25 language in that statement, did you, because you never told anybody this?
1 It never made it into any of your OTP statements, did it?
2 A. No.
3 Q. When was the first time that you told somebody from the OTP about
4 the mining of the dam and the order that came from above? When was the
5 first time you told a representative of the OTP that story?
6 A. It must have been on the 19th, 18th or 19th of April when an OSCE
7 representative from Switzerland interviewed me.
8 Q. So it's your contention that you gave this account that early;
10 A. Well, most of the questions were yes or no questions. I was
11 asked to give brief answers, just to answer their questions and not to
12 narrate all the events that had happened, just to be specific in my
13 answers. So as I was telling the story, it happened that he would
14 interrupt me and said: It's enough. You don't have to go on.
15 Q. Now, is that true --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Just -- can you give me a moment, Mr. Ackerman.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you now able to tell us definitely that the
19 statement was given to the OSCE?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The first statement that I
21 gave was to the OSCE. I also have the business card of the person who
22 interviewed me; it is with me here.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you give us the name of that person, please?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
1 MR. HANNIS: And it is in the supplemental information,
2 the name of the individual.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, sorry.
4 MR. HANNIS: In paragraph 2.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, hold on, hold on, Mr. Shaqiri. This is --
6 that is information I don't have. Is that correct?
7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, you may not have received the
8 supplemental information because we were leading him as a live witness.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, indeed.
10 So if -- I take it then that this is not information covered by
11 any form of privilege?
12 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: No.
14 Would you give me the name then, please, Mr. Shaqiri?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thomas Hunecke.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you spell the second name?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe the usher can help us.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]...
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, H-u-n-e-c-k-e.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
21 Mr. Ackerman.
22 MR. ACKERMAN:
23 Q. How about when you were interviewed by Catherine Driguet on did
24 you tell her this story about the mining of the village and the order from
1 A. I did tell her the story, but it was difficult.
2 Q. Thank you. Now about when you talked to Annette Murtagh in June
3 2001, did you tell her that story about the mining of the dam and the order
4 from above?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And how about when you talked with the Prosecutor on 28 August
7 2006, talked to Keith Scully and Irina Dragulev, did you tell them the
8 story about the mining of the dam and the order from above?
9 A. The last time you mentioned, mostly I corrected these technical
10 mistakes. The full statement is the second one in 2001.
11 Q. Well, I think I've managed to confuse you. You talked with the
12 Prosecutor in February of 2002, an interviewer by the name of Jan
13 Pfundheller and that is this one of corrections of mistakes. The one on
14 the 28th of August when you talked to Keith Scully and Irina Dragulev, is
15 what they call a supplemental information sheet. This isn't a correction
16 of mistakes, this is additional information that you provided that wasn't
17 in any of your statements and I'm just wondering if you told them during
18 that interview that you had on the 28th of August about the mining of the
19 dam and the order from above?
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have an objection to the
22 characterisation of the supplemental information --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on, Mr. Shaqiri, I'm listening to Mr. Hannis
25 for a moment.
1 MR. HANNIS: I think if you have a look at the supplemental
2 information, you'll see it is supplemental information as well as
3 corrections of mistakes.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: I think Mr. Hannis is correct, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: All right, well --
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I do see some -- there is a few mistake
7 corrections in here, maybe three in 27 paragraphs.
8 Q. You don't remember if you mentioned it then?
9 A. No, I don't.
10 Q. Now, during your testimony about this event in your village on
11 the 6th of April yesterday at page 19, line 1 of the transcript - and maybe
12 I should explain something to you before I go any further. Do you
13 understand that every word that you say is being recorded and that that is
14 given to us in writing so that we can see today exactly what you said
15 yesterday. Do you understand that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Page 19, line 1 yesterday, talking about these soldiers, you
18 said: "They did not threaten to kill us, no, they didn't do this."
19 Now, I wonder how you reconcile that with testimony that you gave
20 just before that, that they told you that they would kill you first, that
21 you'd be the first to be executed?
22 A. This may not be clear to you, but there is an explanation. The
23 officers whom I went to see, they threatened me. It's not the soldiers who
24 threatened me.
25 Q. But those officers did not threaten to kill villagers apparently;
1 is that what you're saying?
2 A. It was only the officers who were on the road, and they had
3 nothing to do with other villagers; they just spoke with me.
4 Q. All right. I want to go now to -- I want to back up a little bit
5 to paragraph -- to page 14, paragraph 16 of your testimony yesterday, and
6 that's where you talk about this soldier nicknamed Russ. And you told us
7 yesterday -- you're not going to find it in that statement. I'm looking at
8 the transcript. You told us about this soldier nicknamed Russ. And you
9 said Russ told you that an order has come from Belgrade that people must be
10 moved out of Prilepnica.
11 Now, did you ever say anything about Russ and him telling you
12 that there was an order from Belgrade in any of your prior statements? You
13 didn't, did you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You did. And do you claim that you mentioned Russ before, in
16 statements you'd given before?
17 A. Yes. My signature and my notes, I gave a statement in
18 handwriting, in my own handwriting, and I don't see it exist. I haven't
19 seen it.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that's interesting. Does anybody know where
21 that is? Your Honour, I wonder if the Prosecutor knows where the statement
22 he gave in his own handwriting is.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 MR. ACKERMAN:
25 Q. Who did you give that statement to?
1 A. To these here, to the office, to the OTP office. I gave them my
2 handwritten statement where I have written in detail what had happened with
3 my village.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that's never been provided to us.
5 I'd like to know where it is.
6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we're checking on that.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: You'll see the heading on the statement -- this is
8 the 25th of April one, yeah, it's referred to as handwritten notes of
9 interview, but that would suggest, I imagine, the handwriting of the
11 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, it appears it's -- it's
12 transcribed at -- it was disclosed on the 27th of May, 2005.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: But it doesn't look as though that's what the
14 witness is referring to.
15 MR. HANNIS: Well, I see -- I see a document that appears to be a
16 handwritten document in French that appears to be a statement from him on
17 the 25th of April, 1999.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well, the interviewer was French.
19 MR. HANNIS: Yes, that may be her transcript -- her handwritten
20 transcript --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Shaqiri, when was it that you gave the
22 handwritten statement to the OTP?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was after we returned to Kosova
24 sometime in July or August 1999.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's as close as you're getting at the
1 moment, Mr. Ackerman.
2 MR. ACKERMAN:
3 Q. Have you seen that handwritten statement since you turned it over
4 to the OTP?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you remember the name of the person you gave it to?
7 A. He was an Albanian lawyer from Gjilan. I'll check if I have his
8 business card here. His name is Masar Morina.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: May I see that card, please, Mr. Shaqiri?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't find the card, but I
11 know his name. He is an Albanian from Gjilan. He collected photographs
12 and other statements, so it was handed over to Masar Morina, a lawyer from
14 JUDGE BONOMY: What had he to do with the OTP?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He cooperated with the ICTY office
16 in Pristina, and everything that he had collected he submitted it to the
17 ICTY field office in Pristina. This is what I was told.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 Mr. Ackerman.
20 MR. ACKERMAN:
21 Q. Yesterday during your testimony, it's page 17 of the transcript
22 in line 5, you talked about the soldiers firing in the air and how that was
23 creating a danger and how one of the soldiers was, in fact, injured by a
24 ricochet from one of the bullets; correct?
25 A. Correct, yes.
1 Q. Did you tell that for the first time yesterday or is that also
2 contained in your statements?
3 A. I've mentioned in my statement as well that an Albanian was
4 wounded, and this I didn't mention yesterday because I forgot to mention
5 it. There were two people who were injured, an Albanian and this soldier.
6 Q. And you claim to have had that in a statement that you gave to
7 the OTP?
8 A. Yes, a name is there Nexhmedin Kazizi.
9 Q. Is that in the handwritten one that you gave to this fellow,
10 Morina, or whatever his name is?
11 A. It should be in other statements as well, this Nexhmedin Kazizi,
12 but the Serbian soldier, I didn't know his name.
13 Q. But you claim in the statements you gave to the OTP that you
14 talked about this Serbian soldier being wounded, injured; correct?
15 A. To my recollection, yes.
16 Q. It would surprise you if that wasn't if your statements, I take
18 A. It should be somewhere in my statements, in one of these three
19 statements. I must have mentioned it with the interviewers.
20 Q. All right. I take it there was a time prior to yesterday that
21 you had an opportunity to meet with Mr. Hannis to talk about your testimony
22 in this trial. Is that true?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell us about how long you met with Mr. Hannis?
25 A. Perhaps for an hour or two. I didn't actually look at my watch.
1 Q. Did you tell Mr. Hannis when you met with him about the -- the
2 order coming from Belgrade and the mining of the dam and the Albanian and
3 the Serbian being injured by the shooting in your village? Did you tell
4 Mr. Hannis about these things when he interviewed you, when he met with
6 A. No, no.
7 Q. Now, yesterday you told us about a person named Goroljub Denic?
8 A. Goroljub Denic, yes.
9 Q. Goroljub Denic, and you did this page 18, line 10 of your
10 transcript yesterday. You told us that he was a Serb from your village who
11 was part of the army, in fact that he was part of the army that had begun
12 shooting in your village at 8.00 that morning. Is that true?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And when you put a group together to go to Gjilan to talk to the
15 chief of police to try to keep from having to leave your village, you told
16 us that he went with you, he was part of your group that was going to go
17 beg the chief to change the order. Is that true?
18 A. He did come with us because there was no other chance for us
19 going to the police.
20 Q. And he was dressed in his army uniform and carrying a weapon?
21 A. Yes, of course he had a weapon.
22 Q. Now, I represent to you that none of this is in any statement
23 that I've seen that you gave to the OTP. Do you believe that it was in
24 statements that you gave to the OTP?
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I would ask if you could request
1 counsel to refer to paragraph 5 of the witness's 25 April 1999 statement
2 and see if perhaps there is a reference that may pertain to that
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, yeah, the Goran Denic name had been
5 mentioned, Your Honour, I agree with that.
6 MR. HANNIS: And what uniform he was wearing and whether he was
7 carrying weapons.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry, I was referring to the trip to Gjilan
9 with him.
10 Q. You didn't mention that in any of your statements, did you, that
11 he went with you to Gjilan?
12 A. We met him only to go to Gjilan, for no other reason.
13 Q. Why did you have to meet him to go to Gjilan? What was the
14 purpose in that?
15 A. Sir, when you are threatened with death and when you feel
16 endangered, you try to find someone who can help you, someone you can rely
17 on, through whom you can contact someone with authority who can help you
18 save your life and the lives of other people.
19 Q. All right.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Just for clarification of that reference to
21 paragraph 5 of the statement.
22 In that previous statement, Mr. Shaqiri, you make mention of two
23 persons, Negovan Denic and Goran Denic. Now, are they different people
24 from Goroljub Denic?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are from a family in my
2 village. I said earlier that there were five or six Serbian households in
3 the village.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what I'm trying to clarify is whether Goran
5 Denic is the same person as the one you yesterday referred to Goroljub
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Goroljub Denic, Goran Denic, and --
8 it's the same person, Goce Denic also, they are three names describing the
9 same person.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 MR. ACKERMAN:
12 Q. You told us in that statement, it's page 3, line 29, statement of
13 April 25, 1999, you said that there were about a hundred soldiers around
14 the command post and that they were all dressed the same way. Do you
15 remember that? It's page 4, paragraph 5 of the statement you have there,
16 if you want to look at it.
17 A. Yes, yes, that's true. There were about 100 soldiers.
18 Q. All dressed the same way?
19 A. The ones I saw were dressed in the same way, in this olive-green-
20 grey uniform with some exceptions, few exceptions, like Goran and the
21 officer were wearing camouflage uniform.
22 Q. Well -- and then you said in the very next sentence, if you look
23 at it: "Some of them had black scarves tied around their heads and others
24 wore black berets."
25 So were they all dressed the same way or not?
1 A. When they passed before me, those who came from the western side,
2 some of them were wearing scarves, some berets.
3 Q. So when you said about these 100 soldiers that they were all
4 dressed the same way, that wasn't correct, was it?
5 A. Approximately so.
6 Q. And should we take it that the other things you've told us
7 yesterday and in your statements are approximations?
8 MR. HANNIS: Objection, Your Honour, that's argumentative.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: I agree, Mr. Ackerman.
10 MR. ACKERMAN:
11 Q. You finally left the village. I want to go to the time when you
12 have left the village and you're on the trip away from the village and you
13 pass two roadblocks that you said were manned by soldiers. Serb military,
14 is that what you mean?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the first one you told us yesterday, page 24, 6, was at
17 Kmetofc --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And how far is that from Prilepnica?
20 A. If you take -- as the crow flies, it's 500 metres. But if you
21 walk, you have to go to the well, go back to Kmetofc, and it takes about 4
22 or 5 kilometres.
23 Q. So it's very close, isn't it?
24 A. Yes, it's close. Kmetofc village is divided by -- from the road
25 by 50, 60 Serbian families, and from our village as the crow flies it's not
1 more than 600 metres.
2 Q. And just so that we're clear, you went there with your group of
3 people from your village because you had been told by these soldiers that
4 you were required to leave because of an order from above; correct?
5 A. Correct, because of the order and because we felt endangered. We
6 were afraid.
7 Q. And when you got to that place at Kmetofc, there was a roadblock
8 there, a check-point there, where you encountered these Serb military that
9 we just talked about?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what you told us yesterday at 24, line 12: "The police
12 looked at the convoy of people and didn't do anything, but the soldiers,
13 the army soldiers, stopped us."
14 And then you told us that soldier asked you why you were leaving
15 and where you were going; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you told that soldier that you were leaving on orders of the
18 army, didn't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you told us this soldier, quoting your language: "Showed
21 surprise, and he told me: 'One hears everything these days.'" Correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. So a soldier who is by the crow flies 500 metres from your
24 village, 5 kilometres by road, apparently had no knowledge whatsoever about
25 any order from above that you should leave the village; right?
1 A. This I don't know.
2 Q. Well, didn't -- didn't his remark make you a bit suspicious about
3 whether there were really orders from above that you should leave, that
4 this soldier so very near the village didn't even know about it?
5 A. There was a regular army there, as I said earlier. They had left
6 the barracks and were stationed in Kmetofc village. In the past, we never
7 had any problems, even though we have used that road several times.
8 Whether he knew or not, this I don't know.
9 Q. And both of the check-points that you passed through that day on
10 your way, the army personnel you encountered didn't bother you in any way,
11 did they?
12 A. No, they didn't, not at the check-point.
13 Q. The statement you gave in June of 2001 you said this: "As we
14 passed these two roadblocks, nothing happened to us, no documents where
15 money was demanded from us, and I had not heard of anyone making a
16 complaint about any type of ill treatment."
18 A. True, and I am repeating that it's a fact that they didn't do
19 anything to us. They just escorted us.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. I would like the registrar to put
21 exhibit IC29 up on the screen and I'll get to it in a moment.
22 Q. Before you reached Bujanovac, the police told you they had orders
23 to tell you to return to your homes, didn't they?
24 A. Yes.
1 Q. And they told you that nothing would happen to you, correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Didn't that make you even more suspicious, that the people who
4 told you to leave in the first place didn't have any authority to do so?
5 A. I don't know that.
6 Q. Do you see the map on your screen, IC29?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, as you acknowledged yesterday, you weren't turned around
9 until you'd actually crossed the border and entered Serbia proper; correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And you had no difficulty whatsoever crossing that border, did
13 A. It is an administrative boundary. There were no people there. I
14 explicitly stated: It's an administrative boundary, it's not a border.
15 Q. Yeah, it's all -- everything's part of Serbia and Montenegro, now
16 Serbia, but that was the line between Kosovo and the rest of Serbia, wasn't
18 A. Yes, it was only a sign board, Serbia and Montenegro, and the
19 other side writes Kosova. You can see to this day, it's in English. And
20 even to this day there's no one there; it's not manned by anyone.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Was there actually a sign that said "Serbia and
22 Montenegro" at that point?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was the sign "Kosova" --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that there would be a sign that said
25 "Kosovo," but was there one in reverse that said "Serbia and Montenegro"?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I didn't look at it.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm surprised to hear this referred to as a
3 border, you see, and I don't think in fact you do refer to it. You simply
4 see it as a municipality boundary, which is the edge of the -- which is the
5 edge of Kosovo. Is that right?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There has always been a sign board
7 right in Kosova when you enter Kosova and Serbia on the reverse side when
8 you enter Serbia. The road, per se, finishes and there is a bridge that
9 divides Serbia from Kosova. It's an administrative, as we call it,
10 boundary, municipality boundary.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm surprised to hear about the sign, but we'll
12 perhaps hear more of that later.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: That's a possibility, Your Honour.
14 Q. After being turned around by the police, many of the people went
15 back to the village and I think you told us yesterday that you spent the
16 night in Dobercan before you returned to the village?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Did you then go back the next day?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In your statement of June 2001 to the OTP you -- you said that:
21 "All but two families had returned to the village ... "
22 And then in 5 February of 2002, your statement then when
23 you made corrections, you corrected this and said: "There were more than
24 two families that didn't return."
25 Do you remember that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now --
3 A. I want to explain something. When we went on our way to Serbia,
4 two families returned to Ternovc, went to Ternovc. The others, we went to
5 other villages. I went to Dobercan myself. About these two families, I
6 knew, but that night some families returned to our village. But most of
7 them remained in other villages. We were spread out.
8 Q. And that was true up until the 13th of April when you left again
9 or did all of those families come back by the 13th of April?
10 A. We didn't leave on the 13th of April. On the 13th, the officers
11 that I mentioned earlier came to give us the order.
12 Q. Yeah, that's my mistake. You left the next day, I think on the
13 14th, didn't you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. My question was: Had all of the families returned by the 13th --
16 the 14th? Were they all back then or was there still some that hadn't
18 A. There were some who didn't return. The two families I mentioned.
19 Other families had left in the meantime, but about 90 per cent of the
20 village was there.
21 Q. The Serbs that lived in the village, had they returned?
22 A. The Serbs didn't leave the village. It was only the Roma -- the
23 Roma villagers that left, along with the Albanians.
24 Q. So when you told us yesterday on questioning by Mr. Hannis that
25 the village was completely empty, that wasn't true. There were still some
1 people living there after you left the first time?
2 A. This happened on the 6th of April, until the 7th when we returned
3 that -- at that time there were very few families that remained in the
4 village. This is what I meant, not the entire week.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, we'll come to that and maybe make it a
6 little bit clearer here in just a moment?
7 Your Honour, I'm going to a -- basically a new subject right now.
8 Would you like to break now?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: It would be convenient, and we'll resume at five
10 minutes past 4.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. All right, Mr. Shaqiri, during your testimony yesterday, Mr.
16 Hannis asked you about the second time that you left the village, and this
17 is page 40, line 19 after yesterday's transcript. He asked: "How many
18 people were in the convoy this time," the second time?
19 And you said: "The same as the first time."
20 I only want to ask you this: If more than two families had
21 failed to return to your village from the first time, who were the extra
22 people that were in the convoy the second time, where did they come from?
23 A. In the village, there were people who came to our village from
24 other places during that week. And then there were the people of Kosac
25 village. So there were even more than the first time during the second
1 time. I'm telling you that we left at the border 518 vehicles.
2 Q. Well, I'm not asking you about the people from Kosac. I'm asking
3 you how many people left your village, how many people were in that convoy,
4 and you told Mr. Hannis it was the same as the first time. And I think
5 you've answered that. I think you said some extra people came to your
6 village and made up for the difference. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Yesterday Mr. Hannis asked you about the condition of your
9 village after you returned from that first time you left. You came back to
10 the village and you told him that while you were gone, the houses had been
11 looted and raided, that's at page 32, line 6. He then asked you this:
12 "Did you have occasion to talk with any of the villagers who had stayed
13 behind on the 6th?"
14 And you said: "Yes."
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Then Mr. Hannis said: "Were they able to tell you anything about
18 how this had happened, about how the looting had occurred, or about who had
19 done it?"
20 And then you described the looting and what parts of the village
21 were affected. And then he said: "And did they tell you who had done it?"
22 And you said: "We all knew who did it."
23 He then pointed out that you were several kilometres away at the
24 time and what he really wanted to know was what the villagers who stayed
25 behind had told you about what did it. And at that point you then said:
1 "There weren't any because everybody had left the village. No one stayed
3 So you went from telling him: Yes, you had talked to the
4 villagers who stayed behind to no one stayed behind. Now, those can't both
5 be true, can they?
6 A. I want to make an explanation, sir. I was talking about the
7 villagers who remained there during the night, whom the police returned in
8 the village for the night. There wasn't anyone during the day. Those
9 families that returned to the village on the 6th of April at night, they
10 spent the night in the village, whereas we spent the night in other
11 villages. This is what I meant by that. But when we left the village
12 during the day, not a single one remained; but during night, there were a
13 few families that returned. So there is a difference between the day and
14 the night.
15 Q. All right. So when Mr. Hannis said to you, line 6, page 32:
16 "Did you have occasion to talk with any of the villagers who had stayed
17 behind on the 6th?" You thought he was talking about those that had come
18 back the first day; is that what you're telling us, that you understood it
19 to mean the villagers that came back the day before you did and not the
20 ones who stayed behind on the 6th? Is that what you're telling us now,
21 that that's the question you were answering?
22 A. You have misunderstood it. I didn't stay in the village on the
23 6th. I talked with the people who had spent the night in the village when
24 I returned there on the 7th of April.
25 Q. So there were villagers who stayed in the village the night of
1 the 6th that you talked to after you came back?
2 A. Yes. I talked with them on the next day, as I explained, because
3 on the 6th I was not in the village.
4 Q. So then I guess it was not correct when you told Mr. Hannis a
5 little later that: "Everyone had left the village and no one stayed
6 behind." You're now telling us some people did stay behind?
7 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not what this evidence so far amounts to.
8 It amounts to saying that some were returned by the evening of the 6th.
9 One of the problems about this line also, Mr. Ackerman, is that it all
10 starts with a question that probably Mr. Hannis should never have asked
11 because it presupposes evidence from the witness that certain people did
12 stay behind. And I don't know if, prior to Mr. Hannis's question, there
13 was such a statement from the witness.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: I think there was not, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: So we're into -- well, there comes a time in even
16 the most focused of cross-examinations when we feel that the law of
17 diminishing returns had begun to kick in. I wonder if we've reached that
18 stage in this cross-examination or --
19 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you highlights yet to come?
21 MR. ACKERMAN: There are highlights yet to come, Your Honour. I
22 haven't even gotten to the next trip out of the village, and no one wants
23 to stop this cross-examination more than me because I'm very tired and it's
24 very hard for me to stand on my feet this long.
25 Q. All right. We've got you back in the village now. You went back
1 on the 7th, and just to remind you, you told us you had been told by the
2 police that they had orders from the Gjilan chief to return you home and
3 told you that no harm would come to you. And what you told us yesterday
4 about that, page 30, line 13: "I felt good to hear such words, and I
5 informed my people, telling them to pass the news to all the convoy and
6 return to our homes."
8 A. Correct. That was on the 6th of April at the check-point when we
9 crossed the border to Serbia. The police of Kamenice told me this.
10 Q. Yes. And then Mr. Hannis asked you about life in the village
11 after you had returned, after you had been told that no harm would come to
12 you. He asked if life was normal. And this is the answer you gave, it's
13 on page 34, beginning with line 4, you said: "No, the life was no longer
14 normal. Every citizen tried his or her best to contact people with
15 authority who were of Serb nationality to avoid moving out from the village
16 because there was no reason for us to move. Subsequently, on the 9th and
17 10th of April, we stood guard duty together with the police from the town."
18 So in spite of these comforting words from the police that made
19 you feel so good, somehow you knew that they were coming back on the 13th
20 to throw you out again? And if you knew that, how did you know that?
21 A. We hoped that we would never be forced to leave the village and
22 that we thought that the 6th of April event was a mistake on the part of
23 the army, but we were disillusioned when we saw the order repeated on the
24 13th of April.
25 Q. Yeah, but in your answer to Mr. Hannis you're saying that people
1 from the village were contacting Serbs in authority to avoid moving out. I
2 mean, what -- how could that be? What threat was there to move out at that
3 point right after you came back on the 7th and the 8th and the 9th and the
4 10th? There were no soldiers there telling you to move out. Why are they
5 contacting Serbs to avoid moving out, or is this just made up? Did you
6 make it up?
7 A. No, I didn't make it up at all, sir. After the beating, the
8 looting, the raids that occurred on the 6th of April, we were no longer the
9 same, of course. And we wanted by all means to feel safe and to make sure
10 that this thing didn't happen again, and I didn't mean each and every one
11 in the village. I told you, we are surrounded by seven Serbian villages,
12 and we have always had good relations with them. I told you that my family
13 has been Hoxha for 150 years, and we haven't had any cases of murder,
14 either committed by Albanians or by Serbs. So I take pride at my people
15 and at our neighbours. But the fear of having again what happened on the
16 6th of April, which was something uncivilised, amoral, in our eyes, we
17 thought that by contacting someone we knew in Gjilan, in the militia, in
18 the police, and other places, we would make sure we continued the same life
19 as before. Because, as I said, life couldn't be as normal as it was
20 before. Even if you were there yourself, I'm sure you would have done the
21 same. We were very much afraid.
22 Q. So when you told us yesterday about life being no longer normal,
23 when you said to us: "Every citizen tried his or her best to contact
24 people with authority who were of Serb nationality," that was an
25 exaggeration? It really wasn't every citizen. So you were just
1 exaggerating, weren't you?
2 A. I am not exaggerating. By the word "every citizen" I mean
3 elderly people and young people, but those citizens who had some friendly
4 relations with Serbian nationals tried to find a way to help us not to
5 leave the place. It's absurd to say that 3.000 inhabitants could go to
6 Serb families to ask them to help us.
7 Q. So when you say things like "every person" and "every citizen"
8 and "everyone," we should understand that you really don't mean that. Is
9 that true?
10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that's argumentative.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, Mr. Hannis?
12 MR. HANNIS: That's argumentative.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm not going to stop you, Mr. Ackerman.
14 MR. ACKERMAN:
15 Q. Is that right, Witness? We should not take that as literal when
16 you say "everyone, every person, every citizen"?
17 A. Not every citizen in the literal sense of the word, but many
18 citizens, the people in the village, those who, as I said, good relations
19 with Serbs in authority not with just any Serb. Because it's absurd to say
20 every citizen and every Serbian family.
21 Q. Well, you said that, so what you said is absurd; is that what
22 you're telling us?
23 A. I mean some citizens or many citizens or we citizens tried our
24 best to contact people with authority, and I showed you that we contacted
25 Vlado, that we tried to reach Bora, to meet the chief of the police, Peric
2 Q. You told us all about this, we don't need to hear it again, and
3 we're trying to finish this up. I'm going to go on to a different subject.
4 Let me ask you, as we complete this process, could you please try to be
5 more precise. And when you don't mean every, don't say "every," okay
6 because I wouldn't want you to be absurd again.
7 You talked about April 13th of 1999 when three soldiers came to
8 your mother's house looking for you. And with regard to those three
9 soldiers, yesterday you told us that they said to you, and you used the
10 words "they said," which probably is not the case. "It's good that we
11 found you. We apologise" --
12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, can we have questions without the
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, Mr. Ackerman, I think the tiredness is
15 beginning to show, so let's try confine this to questions.
16 MR. ACKERMAN:
17 Q. You claim they said to you: "It's good that we found you. We
18 apologise, but an order had come from the supreme staff in Belgrade.
19 Prilepnica must be evacuated." That's page 35, line 16.
20 Now, you didn't tell this to Ms. Driguet when she interviewed you
21 in April of 1999, did you?
22 A. I mentioned the name and last name of the first and the last --
23 second officer in every one of my statements --
24 Q. That's not my question. My question is that they said to you:
25 "We apologise, but an order came from the supreme staff in Belgrade.
1 Prilepnica must be evacuated." That's not what you told Ms. Driguet when
2 she interviewed you in 1999, is it? You didn't tell her that, did you?
3 A. I told her the first and the last names of both officers, and I
4 did this -- I told this to everyone that asked me.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: The question, Mr. Shaqiri, is not about the names
6 of the officers; it's about the fact of an order from the supreme staff and
7 that these soldiers told you that they had such an order. And the question
8 is why you did not tell that to Ms. Driguet, who interviewed you on the
9 25th of April, 1999.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't mention the
11 word "soldier." When my sister-in-law came and she told us that the
12 soldiers entered the courtyard, I went out --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Stop, there must be something wrong with the
14 translation that's going through --
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Must be.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: -- because I don't think you're being -- you
17 possibly could have misunderstood that three times. So let me try to spell
18 out in words that no one can misinterpret or misunderstand. What Mr.
19 Ackerman wants to know is why you did not tell Ms. Driguet, who interviewed
20 you on the 25th of April, that the three army officers who came looking for
21 you on the 13th of April told you that they had an order from the supreme
22 staff in Belgrade that Prilepnica must be evacuated.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mrs. Driguet asked me and I
24 answered her questions. She told me: Don't answer what I am not asking
25 you. So whatever she asked me, I answered. In this case, she may not have
1 asked me.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
3 MR. ACKERMAN:
4 Q. Well, when we started this process this morning and when we
5 started this process yesterday, I said: Answer the questions I ask you,
6 nothing more. Don't volunteer anything. Just listen to my questions; if
7 you don't understand them -- answer them. And throughout the day you've
8 given information beyond what I've asked --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Ackerman, we're now into an area that is
10 far from clear. I don't accept that this has been evidence given in the
11 form in which we've had evidence from a number of other witnesses. This is
12 not a witness who embarks upon his life story every time a simple question
13 is asked of him. I think you're being less than fair to him with that
14 characterisation of his evidence, and therefore let's move to more precise
16 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll do that, Your Honour, and I will come back to
17 that because I can make it clearer, I think.
18 Q. Now, you did tell Ms. Driguet in 1999 that this person Djilas,
19 who was one of these three men, told you that they had orders from the
20 regular Serbian army to empty the village, that nobody was to remain,
21 nobody at all. Do you remember that that's what you told her and not
22 something from the supreme staff in Belgrade? It's on page 5, paragraph 10
23 of that statement that you have in front of you. Page 5, paragraph 10, if
24 you just count from the top, get down to paragraph 10, you'll find it. It
25 could be paragraph 9. It's 9 or 10, depending on how you count them. Let
1 me know when you find it.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it, but the translation is
4 wrong, entirely wrong.
5 MR. ACKERMAN:
6 Q. So in --
7 A. On the 13th of April, 1999, it was a Tuesday -- in the morning
8 around 11.30, some soldiers, some soldiers -- two officers, there is a
9 mistake here -- came to my mother's house. They entered my mother's house.
10 I was there. And asked if the imam was there. They asked to see me --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: We don't need to hear again what you told us
12 yesterday was the evidence. All that we are looking at the moment, Mr.
13 Shaqiri, is what was said before and how that compares with the evidence.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: He's reading the wrong paragraph, Your Honour,
15 he's reading paragraph 7 instead of 9. All he has to go is go down two
16 paragraphs and he'll find the language about it being the regular Serbian
17 army, as opposed to supreme staff in Belgrade.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I must say, I was assuming that he was at
19 the right paragraph. I don't see any reason would we shouldn't, and he's
20 saying that the translation was entirely wrong is his answer.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: But he's reading from paragraph 7 and I told him
22 to look at paragraph 10. So I don't care if it's wrong at paragraph 7, and
23 this is in the Serbo-Croat, Your Honour, not in the English.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, which paragraph on the English version
25 should I be looking at then? I'm looking at paragraph 49 --
1 MR. ACKERMAN: It's page 5, paragraph 49 if they are numbered the
2 same way mine are, Your Honour, I think they are.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, 49.
4 Now, Mr. Shaqiri, in English the paragraph we are looking at
5 begins: "Djilas was the one who talked ... " and it then says: "He told
6 me he had orders from the regular Serbian army to empty the village."
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's correct. Yes, it's correct.
8 This version is correct.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.
10 Mr. Ackerman.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.
12 Q. One thing we can conclude from that is that Djilas was not a
13 member of the regular Serbian army because he's referring to orders that he
14 got from the regular Serbian army; correct?
15 A. He was a lawyer, a judge. He conveyed - at least this is what he
16 said - that we represent the regular Serbian army.
17 Q. And this order that the village was to be emptied included
18 everyone in the village, the Albanian people, the Serb people, the Roma
19 people, everybody; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you aware that it's permissible under the law of the Federal
22 Republic of Serbia -- Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at the time for a
23 military commander to order the evacuation of a village in the time of war?
24 Were you aware that that was permissible?
25 A. I don't know that, but that was the order.
1 Q. Djilas also told you on that day, as you were talking with him,
2 that the soldiers had -- that ordered you to leave on the 6th of April were
3 paramilitary. You told us that yesterday at page 38, line 4. And then you
4 said: "It didn't even occur to me to call them paramilitary army. This is
5 what Djilas called them, this formation of the 6th of April."
7 A. That's true.
8 Q. Do you know anything about a Crisis Staff that existed in Gjilan
9 at this time?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was it perhaps a Crisis Staff you were talking about yesterday
12 when you mentioned that Bora Denic was a member of the military staff in
13 Gjilan, would that have been the Crisis Staff in Gjilan, do you think?
14 A. I don't know.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well -- sorry. I want to be clear about one
16 thing, though. Mr. Ackerman appears to have moved away from the reference
17 that you made yesterday to being told that there were orders from the
18 supreme staff in Belgrade. Now, how does that relate to the paragraph that
19 you read, referring to Djilas having orders from the regular Serbian army
20 to empty the village?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what he said
22 in my presence, that the order has come from Belgrade, from the supreme
23 staff, for Prilepnica to be evacuated. If necessary, I can say it in
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 Mr. Ackerman.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I really hesitate to try to do
3 anything more with that.
4 Q. Page 21, line 1 of the transcript from yesterday there's a quote
5 from you I want to ask you about. You said: "The Yugoslav army was there
6 in our country."
7 Do you remember saying that?
8 A. I don't understand your question. What do you mean? For what
9 period of time are you speaking about?
10 Q. I'm speaking of the period of time in April of 1999 that we've
11 been talking about the whole time you've been here. And you said with
12 regard to that period of time: "The Yugoslav army was there in our
14 I want to know what you mean by "our country."
15 A. By "our country" I mean that the army was in our municipality,
16 not in our village.
17 Q. So you referred to your municipality as being a country; is that
18 what you're saying to me?
19 A. A municipality is a municipality.
20 Q. Well -- and then you're not answering the question I asked you.
21 I asked you what you meant when you said: "The ... army was in our
22 country." When you used the words "our country," what were you referring
23 to, what country?
24 A. I don't have any country on my mind. My answers refer to 6th,
25 13th, and 14th of April, and as for the army, it was the Yugoslav army or
1 the Serbian-Montenegrin army, whatever you call it. They were always in
2 Gjilan. They travelled through Gjilan to come from Serbia to Kosova. And
3 at that time our part, the Anamorava part, had no problems whatsoever with
4 the army. And if anyone tells you that they had an incident with the army
5 - and I mean the Yugoslav army because I've served there - if I used the
6 word "Yugoslav" then I apologise, but this is what I learned at school.
7 And when I learnt it, it was Yugoslav.
8 Q. I'm not quarrelling with you about that. The place you were
9 living at the time, your municipality, your village was in the Federal
10 Republic of Yugoslavia in April of 1999, wasn't it? There was no Serbia
11 and Montenegro yet; it was still the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, right?
12 A. That's correct. For me, it's correct.
13 Q. Now, I'm back now to page 40, line 23 of your testimony
14 yesterday, and this is now back on the 13th of April and maybe the 14th,
15 but I think it's the 13th. You told us that: "The army encircled the
16 village because some villagers began to flee and now that they'd encircled
17 the village, nobody could leave."
18 Is that true?
19 A. That's true.
20 Q. If there's an order to completely empty the village, why are they
21 circling the village to keep people from leaving the village? That makes
22 no sense to me. Can you explain that?
23 A. As I already said, on the 6th of April we fled from the opposite
24 side of the village in the direction of Bujanovc. We had escaped danger
25 once. If it wasn't for the army, we wouldn't have moved out. This order
1 was for the next day, for the 14th, not for the 13th. According to the
2 order, we were supposed to leave on the 14th under escort. We didn't know
3 at the time whether we would be escorted by the police or the army.
4 Q. Well, you had actually requested an escort, hadn't you? You were
5 saying you weren't going to leave unless you had an escort?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you said you really didn't care -- you didn't care whether it
8 was police or army that escorted you, as long as you had an escort?
9 A. I said that I would not take the responsibility to lead the
10 villagers. This is what I said, and I can repeat it now that it really
11 didn't matter who would escort us.
12 Q. Yes. So on the 14th of April, as you said in your 2001
13 statement, about 3.000 people left the village that day in cars and
14 tractors and had a police escort; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, there's one thing I'm a little bit curious about and I don't
17 want to spend much time on this, but on the 28th of August when you talked
18 to the Prosecutor about your various statements, what they call their
19 supplement, paragraph 22 of that document, you said you got your escort and
20 you heard a person over the radio ask if you needed fuel or a bus. And you
21 said that you declined any assistance other than the escort. The other
22 assistance offered you was fuel and a bus. Is that correct?
23 A. It's not that I didn't accept it. I just didn't need it.
24 Q. Was there any other assistance offered you besides the fuel and
25 the bus?
1 A. I was asked if there was a need for such an assistance, and I
2 replied that there wasn't.
3 Q. Well, my question was: Did they offer you any other assistance
4 besides a bus and some fuel?
5 A. No, I don't know.
6 Q. In this same supplement you apparently told the Prosecutor this
7 that at one point you told the escort that you weren't going to go and that
8 a police officer you knew advised you that you should go with him and that
9 you believe this was done to protect the villagers and Mr. Shaqiri, and
10 you, and that officer said that he was ordered to escort you and seemed
11 apologetic for having to do it. Is that what you told somebody from the
12 OTP on the 28th of August?
13 A. Not an officer, but a traffic policeman. I never said his name
14 before, but I mentioned it yesterday that this very same policeman works
15 now with the police force in Kosova, SHPK. He works in Kamenica. He is a
16 family person, he's an honourable citizen, and he really felt apologetic
17 that he had to escort us and do this. He is a traffic policeman from
18 Ranilluga. Maybe I wouldn't have mentioned it even today, but you forced
19 me to do that.
20 Q. Well, I hope I didn't force you to do anything today, but let me
21 ask you this: What I don't understand is --
22 A. [No interpretation].
23 Q. What I don't understand is if you request an escort, why would
24 that escort apologise for doing what you asked?
25 A. I quote: "Hoxha, I apologise. You have to come with me."
1 Now, whether it is apologetic or not, this is what he said. I've
2 quoted his words. I've known him for a long time and I still do.
3 Q. All right. Now, this next question I want to try to get through
4 quickly; I hope we can do that. Yesterday you told Mr. Hannis that when
5 you -- when you had left your village and went up toward that well that you
6 were going to to meet the escort, that you met another group of people that
7 were coming from Kosac village. And yesterday you told us that there were
8 3 or 400 people, and you even said up to 600 people, and that's page 41,
9 line 16. In the statement you gave in 1999 you said there were 900 people
10 in that group. And I only want to know which of those is the most accurate
11 number, the one you gave in 1999 or the one you gave us yesterday.
12 A. I have to add something here. There are 300 or 400 in Kosac, but
13 I've also mentioned Kmetofc village when I was asked and other villages as
14 well. I have said that there are 900 and even 1.000 now. At that time, in
15 that convoy, there were 300 or 400. There were other people who were also
16 ordered to move. Approximately 3.000 from Prilepnica and around 1.000 from
17 other villages. I don't know what you got from the interpretation.
18 Q. Well, I really do need now to read to you what you said in your
19 statement to the OTP in April of 1999, and you should be able to find it, I
20 think. Let me see if I can find where it was now. In the English it's
21 paragraph 54. You said they -- you went in the direction of Kosaca. It's
22 paragraph 2 on page 6 in what you have in front of you. And then you said
23 this, you referred to Kosaca and then you said: "The inhabitants of that
24 village, some 900 people, were waiting for me there, having received the
25 same orders to leave their village."
1 So you're clearly referring only to the people from Kosaca at
2 that point, and the question I'm trying to ask and trying to get an answer
3 to is: Why did you say 3 to 400, up to 600, yesterday and say 900 at that
4 time and which of those is more accurate?
5 A. What I stated yesterday and what I stated that time in my
6 statement I want to emphasise again, that there are other houses that are
7 in Kosac village. I haven't counted the inhabitants. The village Kosac
8 proper has about 300 to 400 inhabitants, and now as to how many were there
9 in the column, I don't know.
10 Q. That's fine. I'm going to go on now. You don't know.
11 Yesterday, page 42, line 2, you were asked this by Mr. Hannis: "After the
12 villagers from Kosac joined your convoy, where did you go?"
13 And you said this: "We walked for another 50 or 60 metres to the
14 main road."
15 Now, my question is: Why were you walking? You were in a car,
16 weren't you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So why did you say you walked for 50 or 60 metres to the main
20 A. No, we were not on foot. We were with vehicles. The convoy was
21 walking, not us. The convoy was walking for some 50 or 60 metres up to the
23 Q. Now, when you got to this location at the well, you told us
24 yesterday that you had met a reservist who you told you were waiting for an
25 escort. And you told us yesterday that he offended you. Can you tell us
1 what he did to offend you?
2 A. He was at the crossroads. While the column was moving, I was at
3 the head of the column. I stopped, the column stopped as well. And in a
4 strict voice he said -- I will mention some words, not all of them, because
5 they are offensive --
6 Q. Well, if it's offensive words --
7 A. He said: "Why did you stop here?" And cursed me.
8 Q. If it's offensive words, I'm really not interested in hearing
9 them. I'm just wondering if he'd done anything beyond that.
10 All right. Let me go to another question. At page 42 of your
11 testimony yesterday, Mr. Hannis asked you this question, and please pay
12 attention to the question that he asked you. It was: "After the villagers
13 from Kosac joined your convoy, where did you go?"
14 Don't answer that, but I just want to point out that's the
15 question you were asked. Okay? Now, under the heading of: I only answer
16 the questions that I'm asked, in the process of answering that question you
17 said, "I want to mention a small detail here. A black Mercedes came there.
18 It belonged to high-ranking officers. There were four persons in that
19 Mercedes. I would say all of them were generals. They stopped the
20 Mercedes. I was 5 or 6 metres far from this vehicle speaking to this
21 reservist military person."
22 Now, you had never mentioned that in any statement that you ever
23 gave before, had you?
24 A. No, I haven't, never.
25 Q. When did you first tell the Office of the Prosecutor about this
1 black Mercedes?
2 A. Never, because I didn't recognise this -- these officers. They
3 were there at ten past 8.00 at the well. They spoke for a minute or two
4 with the same soldier who had the radio, and then they proceeded with their
5 journey. In my statement, I've always answered questions that were put to
6 me; I did not answer things that were not asked.
7 Q. Well, that's not the way it happened yesterday, is it?
8 A. No, it's not. While we were talking about the uniform of this
9 soldier who was there, so we were speaking for quite some time, and I just
10 remembered the moment when they came and when they spoke with these
11 officers. If this thing with this soldier didn't go on for a long time,
12 maybe I wouldn't have remembered. They just came there shortly and left.
13 Officers and soldiers, they always moved up and down.
14 Q. You told us that you thought in this Mercedes there were
15 generals, four generals. You still want to maintain that position?
16 A. No. For me, high-ranking officers are those who are from major
17 and above and who have these gold-colour stripes. They have them on their
18 shoulders and on their caps. So on basis of these stripes, they must have
19 been lieutenant-colonels or colonels and above, not below.
20 Q. You told us yesterday about soldiers that were not part of the
21 regular army that would go around in private cars. Don't you suspect
22 that's what this was, some soldiers that were not part of the regular army
23 going around in a private car?
24 A. I was asked, according to you: What is the difference between a
25 regular army and an army that is not a regular one? And my reply was --
1 Q. Now we're -- you're going off somewhere we don't need to go.
2 A. Then it's: Yes, because those who were driving private cars, at
3 least to me, are not regular army.
4 Q. Yes. And one thing that would help you in understanding that was
5 if these really had been high-ranking regular army generals or in that --
6 of that ilk, there would have been quite a lot of security with them,
7 soldiers with guns and -- securing the group; correct?
8 A. I don't know. This is your comment.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I need just a second. My computer
10 keeps shutting off in the midst of these things, and so I can't see the
11 transcript anymore.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, perhaps that allows me to ask Mr. Shaqiri
13 what he's really saying now.
14 Are you saying that these were persons who were not in the
15 regular army because it was a private car? Or what are you saying?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were wearing military
17 uniforms. They had golden ribbons on their caps, and they had military
18 ranks. They were in a black Mercedes. Now, I don't know whether it was a
19 military vehicle or a private one.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
21 Mr. Ackerman.
22 MR. ACKERMAN:
23 Q. Well, this was -- this was during a time, was it not, when NATO
24 was still involved in bombing Serbia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo, hundreds and
25 hundreds of NATO aircraft were in the air; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I hope we're not exaggerating there, Mr.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think we are.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Hundreds and hundreds of aircraft?
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I think they had --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: I know that they flew many, many missions, but are
8 we talking about hundreds and hundreds of aircraft.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: I can't tell you how many of them were in the air
10 at any one time, Your Honour. I know there was a lot involved --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't want to trust my memory on the number of
13 missions, but it was well of 7.000, I think.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, I understand that, but that's a different
16 MR. ACKERMAN: If you divide that by the number of days involved,
17 that's a number of airplanes in the air every day.
18 Q. Okay. I'm on page 43 of your transcript, and this is when we got
19 in -- in all of this confusion yesterday about uniforms, and I -- I want to
20 try to clear this up if I can, and I probably can't, but I want to try.
21 You were asked about this officer who offended you and you said about that
22 officer at line 4: "He was a reservist in the police force. He was
23 wearing a dark blue uniform, a winter uniform, that is, heavy clothes."
24 "Q. How did you know he was a reservist as opposed to a regular
1 "A. Because I used to wear the same uniform for 15 years."
2 Now, I think where we got yesterday with you was you really
3 didn't wear that same uniform for 15 years; correct?
4 A. I didn't say "the same uniform," but I said I kept the uniform of
5 a reservist for 15 years. This is what I'm saying. Maybe it was wrongly
6 translated. I said mine was olive-green, SMB, olive-green-grey uniform.
7 Q. So the position you're taking today is that the translators in
8 this courtroom or the court reporter who wrote down what she heard wrote it
9 down wrong and you didn't say: I used to wear the same uniform for 15
10 years. Is that what you're saying?
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I would indicate yesterday during the
13 break I heard from a sensitive source on the other side of the room who I
14 can't name indicated that he heard in the translation there was a mistake
15 regarding whether or not there was a blue uniform or a green uniform. I
16 don't speak Serbian or Albanian, so I can't speak to that, but that was the
17 information I received.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, let me ask the witness this then --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the witness made it clear yesterday that
20 the uniform he had was green; that wasn't the issue I don't think, Mr. --
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, apparently from what Mr. Hannis has said
22 today, what was wrongly translated was the word "blue." But when he
23 answered he was wearing a dark blue uniform, that he didn't say "blue" that
24 he said "green." Is that true?
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, hold on, show me that in the transcript.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: 43, 4.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, in yesterday -- you're talking about --
3 you haven't got the updated one, sorry. Just give me a second.
4 Mr. Hannis, are you talking about the passage at 28:07, line 19?
5 MR. HANNIS: I was looking at line 18 and 19, yes, Your Honour.
6 I think that's my understanding where it was apparently translated in the
7 transcript his answer was that reservist was wearing a blue uniform --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just, you don't need to read this out. Just
9 let me see.
10 Now, Mr. Shaqiri, the reservist that you say offended you at the
11 crossroads was a reservist in which force, the army or the police?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. His uniform was
13 blue and he was communicating by radio with the command --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, just stop there. So you're clear the uniform
15 was blue; that's exactly what the transcript says. So there isn't a
16 mistake there.
17 Now, what colour was your uniform that you either kept or wore
18 for 15 years?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] SMB, or olive-green -- dark olive-
21 JUDGE BONOMY: I stop there. You mentioned yesterday your
22 brother. What uniform did he have?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had the uniform of a reservist,
24 too, blue.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Blue, yeah.
1 Now, Mr. Ackerman, that confirms what was said yesterday about
2 colours. You can proceed from there, but bear in mind that intertwined
3 into all this was a reference to the brother's uniform also.
4 MR. ACKERMAN:
5 Q. The Judge just asked you what service this person was from that
6 offended you. You told the Judge you didn't know. Yesterday you told the
7 Judge in response to a question from Mr. Hannis that he was a reservist in
8 the police force. Now, which is true? Do you not know or was he a
9 reservist in the police force?
10 A. I said it yesterday. According to the uniform, I mentioned the
11 military police, not the police, at least that was my impression. I don't
12 know whether that is correct. So you must add military police, not only
14 Q. Well, you -- having been in the army, you must know that the
15 military police wore regular army uniforms with white belts. You must know
16 that, don't you?
17 A. I know that they are traffic police, while the other police, at
18 least in my time, had this kind of uniform, that is, military police. They
19 usually had motor-bikes.
20 Q. Military police wore regular army uniforms with white belts,
21 didn't they, not blue uniforms? If you don't know, just say you don't
23 A. In my time I'm talking - I did my military service in 1968/1969 -
24 the ones that wore white belts were military traffic police. We call them
25 saobracajci , military traffic police.
1 Q. So in 1968 and 1969 when you served, the military police wore
2 blue uniforms; is that what you're saying? That's not true, is it?
3 A. A long time has passed. At that time the soldiers who were
4 serving within the barracks used the same uniform; outside the barracks
5 they used this white belt. So ...
6 Q. All right. We're going to move on. At Kllokot -- you went to
7 Kllokot in Vitina municipality. You went through a check-point there which
8 you said had police and military. And you said this: "It would have been
9 impossible to pass through if we had not been escorted." That's in your
10 statement of June 2001 at page 4, paragraph 14. How did you come up with
11 such a conclusion, that if you hadn't had an escort you wouldn't be able to
12 pass through that check-point in Kllokot? Nothing had happened to you the
13 whole time on the trip, had it?
14 A. There was a check-point where we were greatly insulted, pointed
15 guns at. Hadn't he had any escort, probably they might have stopped the
16 convoy and we might have fared worse, but fortunately for us we didn't have
17 any problems thanks to Jova.
18 Q. You said there were police and military at that check-point, and
19 you were being escorted by police so I take it you had no concern about the
20 police; right?
21 A. The police escorted us, that's a fact. And there, there were
22 people who had both military and police uniforms, but they insulted us on
23 the way, not only us at the head of the convoy, but other people as well.
24 These were people who maintained a savage attitude towards the convoy,
25 using all sorts of insulting word and threats. And based on this, I came
1 to the conclusion that hadn't we had an escort -- maybe, I'm saying
2 "maybe," - we would have fared worse. That's my opinion.
3 Q. Well, "maybe" makes sense to me. What you said was: "It would
4 have been impossible to pass through had we not had an escort." That's
5 different from maybe, isn't it? I'm going to move on. As you neared the
6 border, you came to a spring, and it was there that you encountered another
7 officer that asked you where you were coming from and why; right?
8 A. There was a check-point there.
9 Q. And this officer asked you where you were coming from and why,
10 didn't he?
11 A. Yes, and "Why are you leaving," he said to us.
12 Q. Yeah. He obviously had no idea that your group was coming to his
13 check-point. He was surprised that you'd arrived there, wasn't he?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And it was at that point that this soldier started hitting you
16 and was stopped by the policeman Jova.
17 A. Listen, sir, he was the officer I talked to, and he ordered me to
18 get off my car and line up the people --
19 Q. That's not what I'm asking you. My question is really simple.
20 Jova stopped this soldier from hitting you, this person from hitting you;
22 A. Right.
23 Q. And the officer there apologised to you for what that person had
24 done in hitting you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you were angry about that and didn't accept his apology and
2 sort of made a deal with him that you wouldn't be searched or anything like
3 that, and you honoured the deal and he honoured the deal and you went on
4 your way without being searched; correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Now, in your statement of June 2001 you -- you told Ms. Murtagh
7 who was interviewing you at that time that you later heard that the rest of
8 the people were actually searched. And then on the 28th of August when you
9 talked to the attorneys here at the Tribunal, you said that was not the
10 case, that they were not searched. Now, did you learn something between
11 those two statements to cause you to change your mind?
12 A. I want to make an explanation here. The first 50 vehicles were
13 escorted up to the meadow or at the border police until he was not there.
14 When he was not there, a military patrol wanted to search or to loot them.
15 And when he came back, he engaged in a conversation with him. And the
16 inhabitants told me this: This control -- this column is moving without
17 any control. So we moved without being searched up to the border. I mean
18 thanks to that intervention by that officer, we were not searched.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Shaqiri, the question you're being asked is:
20 Why did you say in a statement in 2001 that everyone else was searched?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a mistake, Your Honour. Those
22 who remained at the check-point -- the soldiers that came in the meantime
23 wanted to search them, but at that moment --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't want to hear the explanation of the event
25 again. What we want to try and understand is why you give two completely
1 different versions on two separate occasions; that's really what this is
2 about. Now, why did you -- you're indicating now that in 2001 you didn't
3 say that everyone else was searched. Is that right?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not clear. I'm sorry. I'm not
5 clear from the translation.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, who has the benefit of seeing your
7 statement in 2001, which I don't have, says that in that statement you
8 claimed that while you weren't searched, for reasons you've just explained,
9 nevertheless everyone else in the convoy was searched. Now, why did you
10 say that in -- in the year 2001?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say this in 2001; I never
12 said this.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you then any idea how it might have got into
14 your statement, which was read back to you as I understand it in your own
15 language, and I think this particular statement was also signed on each
16 page? Is that -- is this the one that -- this statement signed on every
17 page, read back to you in your own language and has these words in it. So
18 how -- can you help us to understand how that got into the statement?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's not possible.
20 Can you give me the Albanian version of it?
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Ackerman, I don't even have the English
23 MR. ACKERMAN: We can do it, Your Honour. It is Exhibit 4D6, and
24 if Exhibit 4D6 could be put up on the monitors, the Albanian version for
25 the witness, the English for Your Honours. And in the English, at least,
1 it's the -- it's the next-to-the-last paragraph on page 6. I have no idea
2 where it is in Albanian; I know where it is in B/C/S. I see the first page
3 on the screen. We just need to go to page 6 and we'll be there. In the
4 Albanian it will be the final paragraph on page 7, I'm told.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it in Serbian.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: In Serbian it's on page 6, paragraph 3, but I
7 don't have page 6 on my monitor yet. I still have page 1. I see, it's on
8 this monitor over here. But it's the page before that one. It says "page
9 6" on the bottom. You need to go right to the bottom of that page, so go
10 back a page. Okay. Well, now we got --
11 Q. Okay, it's on your screen now in Serbian, and I don't know what
12 the Judges have?
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I thought we were looking for an Albanian
14 version. Is there no such thing in this case?
15 MR. ACKERMAN: There is. It's one of the documents. It's in
16 there, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the trouble is -- I know that this has
18 arisen in the course of the cross-examination, but it's important to try to
19 have page references for the exhibit. And it won't be page 6 of the
20 Albanian version that you're -- you need to have, it's the page number that
21 page 6 of the Albanian version happens to have in the system that you need
22 to know. And there are three of you sitting at that table and one of you
23 doing some work, and the other two, I think, could perhaps being busily
24 putting together for you, Mr. Ackerman, an indication what these page
25 numbers might be.
1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have a hard copy that we could hand
2 the witness of the Albanian version.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, all right.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: It should be next to the last paragraph. The
5 Albanian version is now on the screen.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that in Albanian it's page 7,
7 last paragraph.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 7, last paragraph, that's where it is.
9 Q. And what you're looking for is the last sentence of that
10 paragraph: "I later heard that the rest of the people who were left were
11 actually searched by the other soldiers." That's what the statement says.
12 A. In Albanian it's not as you are saying, and I will read it word
13 for word, if it's necessary and the interpreter will translate it.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, please read it word for word.
15 MR. ACKERMAN:
16 Q. Go ahead.
17 A. "Another officer and Jova took away the soldier who had hit me.
18 The officer came and apologised on behalf of the soldier, but I did not
19 accept the apology. I said: He's your soldier. You are responsible for
20 him. I said: You should be ashamed of yourself for not being able to take
21 responsibility for a soldier while I take responsibility for 3.000 people.
22 I said: You may do what you like, but you are not human beings. I was
23 very upset, and as a result of the quarrel with the officer we were not
24 searched, nor was there any money taken from us. The military officer
25 promised they would not search the convoy. I want to convince you this is
1 not my mistake, he said. This officer then escorted me to the border with
2 50 vehicles. Each group of 50 vehicles was escorted to the border by other
3 officers. It was 4 to 5 kilometres away. Later I heard that" -- doesn't
4 matter then.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the next bit that does matter --
6 MR. ACKERMAN: That's what matters.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: -- Mr. Shaqiri.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I later heard that the rest of the
9 people in fact were searched by the other soldiers, even though the officer
10 had promised me that they would not be searched."
11 JUDGE BONOMY: That's the part we want to know about. Why is
12 that there?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know why it is there. I
14 was informed, Your Honour, that the soldiers went there to search the
15 convoy, but thanks to the intervention -- I might have said the opposite,
16 but I didn't want to say untruths. I have taken the oath to say the truth.
17 So thanks to the intervention by the Serbian officer, they were not
18 searched. So something is wrong here. Then later I heard from the others
19 that some soldiers went to the convoy to search them, but once the officer
20 arrived - which is not here - he took away the soldiers and my people was
21 not searched. And I say this in full responsibility here.
22 MR. ACKERMAN:
23 Q. All right. I think I'll not pursue that any further. You
24 eventually returned to your village after the NATO intervention ended. You
25 told us yesterday that you found the village burnt to the ground,
1 destroyed, looted, including the mosque, and that was at page 57 of the
2 transcript, line 6. In your correction statement of 2002, that's 5
3 February 2002, the one where you made corrections with Jan Pfundheller,
4 what you said to Mr. Pfundheller about what happened in your village, you
5 said when you returned to Prilepnica 123 of the 300 houses had been burned
6 and all had been looted.
7 Now, which one is it? Was the village burnt to the ground or
8 were 123 of 300 houses burned?
9 A. The entire village was destroyed and burned to the ground are 123
11 Q. Did you count this number of houses?
12 A. No, but there is proof from the municipality. They have carried
13 out in a professional way the calculation of all the damage caused by the
15 Q. Why did you tell us yesterday the village had been burnt to the
16 ground - those were your words - when the truth was that 123 of 300 houses,
17 less than half, had actually been burned? Why did you tell us that?
18 A. I don't know how it was interpreted. The village was burned, it
19 was looted, it was fully destroyed, while 123 houses were totally burned.
20 Q. So you're saying where the transcript says from yesterday that
21 you said the village was burnt to the ground, that that's not true, that
22 that's not what you said?
23 A. Listen, there were houses that were not burned, but they were
24 damaged, demolished --
25 Q. No, you need to understand what I'm asking you. There's no doubt
1 that what you said at page 57, line 6, that you told Mr. Hannis you found
2 the village burnt to the ground. Now, my question is: Are you saying now
3 that you didn't say that?
4 A. I didn't say "burnt to the ground." I mentioned the figure 123.
5 Q. So this is a mistake of interpretation in the transcript
6 yesterday? They got it wrong?
7 A. Maybe. I don't know.
8 Q. Well, you either said it was burnt to the ground or you didn't;
9 which is it?
10 A. I don't think I said "to the ground."
11 Q. We have an audio recording of your testimony yesterday. We can
12 check it, you know. Do you want us to check it, see if you're telling the
14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think this has gone beyond the point
15 of being helpful to the Trial Chamber.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I disagree, Mr. Hannis. I am finding it helpful.
17 In fact, I have noted to make exactly the check that Mr. Ackerman is
19 MR. ACKERMAN:
20 Q. You think we need to do that, Mr. Witness?
21 A. If this is what you're saying, then I will withdraw that answer
22 because the entire village was not burned.
23 Q. What about the Roma houses in your village, were they burned to
24 the ground?
25 A. When I returned, they were also burned.
1 Q. What about the Serb houses?
2 A. I don't know for that particular moment, but later on they were
3 burned as well. Now, whether they were all burned or not, I don't know. I
4 can say that they were burned, but whether now 100 per cent were burned, I
5 don't know that.
6 Q. Was there a church in Prilepnica, Orthodox church?
7 A. No.
8 Q. This person that you speak of in your statement of 25 April 1999,
9 this Goran Denic who has three names, did you know that this person was
10 later arrested along with a group of other civilians for setting the fires
11 in Prilepnica? Did you know that?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. I have one last question for you. Yesterday at the very
14 beginning of your testimony you were asked by Mr. Hannis about your
15 military service and you said: "I was in the front line, the 20th Guards
16 Platoon." What front line was there in 1968? There wasn't any war going
17 on in 1968, was there?
18 A. That's a mistake. I will say it again in the original, in
20 I was in the 20th Guards Regiment in the first echelon in wartime
22 Q. So "first echelon" was misinterpreted to "front line"; is that
23 what you're saying? Yes?
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think that's for him to Judge, Mr. --
25 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't either, Your Honour. I've got no further
2 Thank you, Mr. Shaqiri.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's time for another break, and we will --
4 we'll resume at five past.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, you want to say something?
8 MR. HANNIS: Reluctantly I do, Your Honour. At page 27 of the
9 transcript today Mr. Ackerman was asking the witness about a handwritten
10 statement that he mentioned having given to a lawyer named Masar Morina
11 from Gjilan. When we heard that information, we started searching. I have
12 discovered that handwritten statement and an English translation, which
13 based on our search has not been disclosed to the Defence prior to today.
14 During the break, I handed them a hard copy of the handwritten statement in
15 Albanian and the English translation. It appears there is also a four-page
16 interview form that is related to that as well and I bring it to your
17 attention and the Defence's attention for whatever action you deem it
18 appropriate at this time. I thought I should bring it to your attention as
19 early as possible so we can figure out the best way to deal with it.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you yourself been able to make an assessment
21 on whether it has any impact on the evidence we've heard?
22 MR. HANNIS: Well, yes, Your Honour, I can indicate to you that
23 in the sense of being an additional statement about the same events, it has
24 many parts that are similar or identical, but it also has some parts that
25 are different and would be the kind of thing that Defence may want to
1 cross-examine about. At some point I would argue that some of it has a
2 cumulative effect, but they are in a better position to assess that. It
3 has a couple of things that he told someone at some time that did not
4 appear in any of the other statements.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
6 Mr. Ackerman, first, what do you have to say about this?
7 MR. SEPENUK: You want to hear from Mr. Ackerman?
8 JUDGE BONOMY: I would rather hear from Mr. Ackerman since he has
9 concluded his cross-examination and what impact it might have on that.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I haven't had a chance to read it.
11 It's 17 single-spaced pages in the English, and I haven't been given this
12 interview form that Mr. Hannis just mentioned, the four-page interview
13 form, I have no idea what that is. I certainly don't want to close my
14 cross-examination now. I want to be able to continue tomorrow if there's
15 something in this that I think merits additional questioning. I must say
16 that I'm quite distressed that this would come to us this late, it should
17 have come to us a long time ago.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: I think your distress is matched by that of Mr.
19 Hannis, though, Mr. --
20 MR. ACKERMAN: I agree with that, I think it is. I'm certainly
21 not suggesting it's anything deliberate on the part of the Prosecution that
22 we didn't get it. But having just gotten it we have to have a chance to
23 consider it. If I had not cross-examined yet, I would want you to give me
24 the evening to look at it because it could affect what I have asked or
25 would ask. So I think it's a big wrench thrown into this witness's
1 testimony that we need to deal with in a reasonable way and I think a
2 reasonable way is to perhaps defer any cross until tomorrow.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
4 Mr. Bakrac, how are you placed by this?
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour. Let me not
6 repeat Mr. Ackerman's arguments. I also need time to familiarise myself
7 with this precisely because of the fact that I will have to cross-examine
8 now, and I don't really want to repeat everything that Mr. Ackerman has
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Sepenuk, are you adding to this or are
11 you just --
12 MR. SEPENUK: I just had an inquiry, Your Honour. Mr. Hannis
13 said -- we have this statement he described but he said there's also a
14 four-page statement --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I think you should be given that as well.
16 MR. SEPENUK: I'm not sure what that is.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: It's an interview form that seems to be related to
18 the actual statement.
19 MR. HANNIS: It's entitled: A questionnaire of war crimes
20 committed in Kosovo of which this witness was an interviewee. I just
21 received the copies now that I'll hand to the Defence right away.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it related to the handwritten statement or is
23 it actually separate from it?
24 MR. HANNIS: I --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: You did say it was related, but I mean at first
1 blush it may not be.
2 MR. HANNIS: I can't say, Your Honour, because the named
3 interviewer is described as a member of the central war crimes commission
4 in charge of gathering the evidence, and that is the group, as I understand
5 it, that Mr. Morina was attached to. So it appeared to be related in that
6 sense. But I can't tell if it was done contemporaneous with or prior to or
7 after the handwritten statement was composed.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
9 Give me a moment.
10 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Hannis, can you help me on how this
12 situation could arise or do you need to investigate that further?
13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I need to do some further
16 JUDGE BONOMY: No one's suggesting anything other than an
17 accident at the moment, but even then I think we have to try and learn from
18 the experience to try and avoid any repetition.
19 MR. HANNIS: I agree.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: And you know, for ought yet seen, as we say, I
21 better speak simple English, I suppose. No one speaks simpler English than
22 I do. Well, it's been translated pretty well. For ought yet seen, there
23 may be some objection taken, so it would, I think, be necessary for you to
24 investigate and explain tomorrow what the situation is.
25 MR. HANNIS: I will, Your Honour. I need to know for my own
1 purposes as well.
2 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Shaqiri, we're -- we're grateful to you
4 for alerting us all to the fact that there was another statement which you
5 had written. That statement has now been traced, but it was not available
6 to the lawyers representing the accused in this case until 15 minutes ago.
7 And in these circumstances, it is necessary for us to give them time to
8 read the statement and there's also some additional information, so that
9 they can adjust, if appropriate, the questions that they will ask you.
10 Indeed, it may simplify your evidence or it may complicate it. No one can
11 tell at the moment. We've decided that in these circumstances the best
12 thing is now to adjourn until tomorrow.
13 So that completes your evidence for today, but you will be
14 required to return here again tomorrow at 2.15, same arrangement as today.
15 Meanwhile, again, it's very important that you have no discussion with
16 anyone about any part of your evidence or the evidence you will give in the
17 court. So we'll see you tomorrow at 2.15.
18 Meanwhile, we adjourn.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, Mr. Ackerman.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, to not use up the time tomorrow,
22 there's a bit of business we can do now.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Do we need Mr. Shaqiri?
24 MR. ACKERMAN: We certainly don't.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: You're free to leave the courtroom, Mr. Shaqiri.
1 We can deal with things.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 MR. ACKERMAN: This will take seconds not minutes, but I forgot
4 to do it at the beginning of my cross. I want to move the admission of
5 Exhibits 4D4 4D5, 4D6, 4D8, and 4D9. Those are the statements from this
7 MR. HANNIS: No objection from me.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: That's noted. Thank you.
9 Anybody got anything else to do?
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, a quick question, has the exhibit I
11 believe it was Prosecution Exhibit 2288, I guess they're calling it the
12 OSCE report, has it been introduced into evidence?
13 MR. ACKERMAN: It just was, Your Honour.
14 MR. IVETIC: Oh, okay, that answers my question. Thank you.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: The one other thing I think just to tidy the
16 record completely is to note that IC29 is actually 4D4. Is that -- sorry,
17 IC32 is --
18 MR. ACKERMAN: It's actually 4D4.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: That's the 25th of April statement.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, that's right, it's 4D4.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, is there a mechanism for striking an exhibit?
22 So we can strike-out IC32 and that won't cause confusion when you give
23 another exhibit the same number? No.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be available for the next IC document,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry?
2 THE REGISTRAR: That could be given to the next IC --
3 MR. ACKERMAN: The problem with that is if a future appellate
4 lawyer is looking at the transcript and sees IC32 and goes and looks at it,
5 it's not going to be the exhibit the transcript is talking about. So you
6 better leave it as is.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Just give me a moment.
8 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, I'm satisfied that the transcript
10 that we are now participating in creating clarifies the position
11 sufficiently for any future reader to see that the reference to IC32
12 earlier today should be substituted by a reference to 4D4, which is the
13 same exhibit which already was part of the e-court library.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Is there any possibility, just so it becomes real
15 clear, that those who are in charge of updating this transcript, this is a
16 raw version, can actually replace IC32 with 4D4.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the answer to that is there is no point in
18 doing it. I think from memory it was only referred to by the registrar
19 giving it that number. And there was no question that was asked: Can you
20 look at IC32. Otherwise I would agree with you, that might be a way of
21 doing it. I think the way we've just done it is the way to deal with it.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I have done an enormous work of appellate
23 work in my time and one of the greatest frustrations is finding a reference
24 to a document which is not the document that you expect it to be and that
25 can happen.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm sure the appellate court is going to
2 enjoy reading our exchange, and that will make them particularly alert to
3 this problem.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: I suspect so, Judge.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Microphone not activated].
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry, but would
9 you just allow me a minute. I just need to clarify something. In this
10 specific case it was my understanding - and I hope that I can receive an
11 explanation now - witness statement, for example like in this case, once
12 it's in the system and once it is put to the witness, is it not
13 automatically included in the evidence or do we have to identify it with a
14 number every time and do we have to tender it every time? We don't want to
15 take up time. You see what I'm saying? So in the future we'd like to
16 avoid that.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you're absolutely right in what you
18 say and the practice has been to identify the document by referring to its
19 number so that it can then be placed on the screen. And once the witness
20 is asked about it, then it's part of the record to the extent that it has
21 been dealt with in the course of the proceedings. The only situation where
22 it seems to me necessary to deal with it in a rather separate way is, for
23 example, when Mr. Ackerman invited us to give consideration to the whole
24 terms of a statement that he decided not to cross-examine a witness on in
25 detail and he was making it clear that he was inviting us to consider that
1 for all its contents to be compared against the evidence of the accused --
2 of the witness in court. And there -- in that sort of situation, the
3 position should be made clear. But I gather that those that administer the
4 system feel more comfortable when the word "tender" at least has been used
5 and any doubt -- any lingering doubt is removed. But you can take it from
6 the Bench that we will consider every exhibit that is referred to in any
7 context in the evidence, to the extent that it is relevant to the evidence
8 presented to us, so to that extent it's automatically a part of the record
9 whenever it's introduced.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you for this
11 explanation and thank you for your time.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you may be a bit premature.
13 Mr. Ackerman.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, perhaps the last word. When I was
15 referring to a potential future appeal, you must understand I was referring
16 to an appeal by the OTP.
17 JUDGE CHOWHAN: But with permission of the chair, I wish to add
18 one thing, Mr. Ackerman, and that is, frustration is a part of your
19 profession and ours, too, so when you talk of that you should always accept
20 it. It is a profession of that kind.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there we are. With great regret, we adjourn
22 until 2.15 tomorrow.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.27 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 7th day of
25 September, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.