1 Friday, 22 September 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Gjogaj.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: The evidence will now continue. You'll be asked
9 questions by representatives of some of the accused. I simply have to
10 remind you that the solemn declaration you took at the beginning of your
11 yesterday to tell the truth continues to apply to your evidence today.
12 The next counsel to question you will be on behalf of General Pavkovic,
13 Mr. Ackerman.
14 Mr. Ackerman.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours.
16 WITNESS: ALI GJOGAJ [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:
19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Gjogaj. Mr. Gjogaj, I'm not going to be very
20 long with you. I have just a very few questions.
21 On 16 May 2005, just a bit over a year ago, you gave a statement
22 to the war crimes prosecutor from Belgrade. Do you remember doing that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when you came here to the Tribunal you brought a B/C/S copy of
25 that statement with you and gave it to the Prosecutor, didn't you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you tell us about when it was that you first advised someone
3 from the Prosecutor's office about the existence of this statement? When
4 did they first know of it, to your knowledge?
5 A. On that day when I reported to the Tribunal's office in Pristina,
6 that's where I -- when I brought it. I was called to meet the Tribunal
7 in Pristina and I brought this statement with me.
8 Q. Was that back on the 16th of May, 2005?
9 A. If you refer to the one in B/C/S, is that the one you're asking me
11 Q. Yes, sir. It's in your --
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it may be helpful if I could give him
13 a copy of it. It's been -- it's been put in the -- in the e-court system,
14 but it's not uploaded yet. I don't know why it takes as long as it takes
15 to upload something, but it does. But it was given to them quite some
16 time ago. Anyhow --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the P number?
18 MR. ACKERMAN: 4D21.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, it's a Defence exhibit?
20 MR. ACKERMAN: It's 4D21, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: And it's only in B/C/S and English. We don't have
23 an Albanian version of it, but that would be the exhibit number.
24 Q. Now, you have before you the statement that I understand you
25 brought here when you came. And what I want to know is when the Office of
1 the Prosecutor first became aware of that statement.
2 A. You mean to the OTP of the Tribunal or ...
3 Q. Yes, to the OTP of the Tribunal.
4 A. On the day we had the preparations, that's when I handed over the
5 statement in B/C/S that I gave in Pristina.
6 Q. All right. That statement was taken, though, in Pristina on the
7 premises of The Hague Tribunal, wasn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was there someone there from the OTP on that day when you gave
10 that statement?
11 A. Maybe they were, but I did not recognise them. I was taken in an
12 UNMIK vehicle from my house and straight to the offices of the Tribunal
13 there. I just asked if there was an interpreter into Albanian, and that's
14 all I asked. I had no idea that the statement was taken in Serbian. What
15 I was saying the interpreter was interpreting into Albanian. Now, whether
16 she was an interpreter of The Hague, I don't know that. I couldn't know.
17 Q. All right.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's not a very clear answer, is it,
19 Mr. Ackerman?
20 MR. ACKERMAN: It's not, but I don't think I'm going to get much
21 further with this, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Okay.
23 MR. ACKERMAN:
24 Q. No one there introduced themselves to you as a representative of
25 the Office of the Prosecutor or as an investigator from the Office of the
1 Prosecutor. Is that what you're telling us?
2 A. He said to me he was a lawyer in Pristina of the Office of the
3 Prosecutor. He said he was from Belgrade and that he was dealing with
4 crimes committed during the war and crimes that had to do with the
5 Tribunal as well. That's all I know.
6 Q. That would have, I take it, been the deputy war crimes prosecutor
7 from Belgrade, whose name is Dragoljub Stankovic; do you recall that?
8 A. Here is his name. I think this is -- what I gave to the Tribunal
9 is the original. I don't see the reason why it should be photocopied.
10 Q. Do you read Serbo-Croat?
11 A. As I mentioned earlier, when I came here to give a statement I am
12 not that educated; I've only completed five years of school. I don't know
13 how to read B/C/S. I do know the language as a language, but I don't know
14 how to read it.
15 Q. All right.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Just for clarification, Mr. Gjogaj, and to remove
17 any uncertainty. During the giving of this statement, you were speaking
18 in Albanian?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke in B/C/S.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Why -- what was the need for the translation into
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was just scared that I might make
23 a mistake.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
25 Mr. Ackerman.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. That will -- that question
2 will become clear in just a moment.
3 Q. Sir, you'll notice at the -- at the beginning of the statement, I
4 think it's probably on page -- it's the page that has 531 at the top of
5 it, K0532531. It indicates that that lawyer from Belgrade, that deputy
6 prosecutor, explained to you what was going to happen, that he talked to
7 you about your duty to tell the truth without omitting anything, and that
8 giving false testimony was a crime, that you were not required to answer
9 any question that would expose you or certain other persons to serious
10 disgrace, significant material damage, or criminal prosecution. That's
11 what the Prosecutor told you at the beginning of that statement; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And following that advice from the Prosecutor, you then went ahead
14 and gave your statement, which was the truth and from which you omitted
15 nothing. Is that a fair statement?
16 A. What I was working on, of course I stated everything about it.
17 Q. Yes. And what you told that Prosecutor that day was the truth,
18 wasn't it?
19 A. Of course.
20 Q. And once you completed this statement, then the Prosecutor, if you
21 look at the -- you'll see this on the very -- I think it may be the very
22 last page -- next-to-the-last page. It's the page that ends with the
23 numbers 543. And it says that the state prosecutor reminded you that you
24 had the right to request that the record be translated and read to you,
25 and you said that you wanted that to happen. And as you just told the
1 Judge, you wanted that to happen because you wanted to be certain that it
2 was accurate. That's true, isn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And so the record was read and interpreted into Albanian, which it
5 says you understood. And then it says that you said that you had no
6 objection to the contents of the record or to the interpretation because
7 it was accurate and complete. And then you confirmed it with your
8 signature, and we can see your signature on each page of that B/C/S
9 document. And that's all correct also, isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And this statement basically describes those events in April of
12 1999, regarding the exhumation of bodies and placing them in a
13 refrigerator truck that you talked about here yesterday. True?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And it's also true, isn't it, that nowhere in this document, in
16 this statement, which you were told you should tell the truth and not omit
17 anything, did you make any mention of the Yugoslav army or of anyone
18 dressed in the uniform of the Yugoslav army, did you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Yes you made no such mention; that's what you're telling me,
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, yesterday in your testimony here at -- it's at page 56 in the
24 rough transcript, Your Honours, beginning at line 12, you were asked about
25 your boss and how he was dressed at the time he came to order you to go
1 perform these activities. And for the first time ever, as far as I can
2 tell from reading all of your statements, you mentioned that he was
3 dressed in the clothes of the Yugoslav army. Those were your words. Do
4 you remember saying that?
5 A. Yes. Because our boss wearing the clothes of the army.
6 Q. Was there some reason that you didn't tell the prosecutor from
7 Belgrade that when you gave this statement and in which you agreed not to
8 omit anything?
9 A. He didn't ask me whether they had these clothes or not, otherwise
10 I would have mentioned that my boss was wearing military clothes. They
11 just asked me in general, not in details.
12 Q. But you do concede, don't you, that the prosecutor told you you
13 should not omit anything?
14 A. Yes, but they didn't ask me if my boss was wearing these clothes
15 or not. My boss was wearing military clothes and when he sent us there,
16 we did what I described in my statement. That's what he worked.
17 Q. I'm not challenging that at all. I'm not challenging that you did
18 what was described in your statement. Prior to your testifying here
19 yesterday, did anyone tell you that it might be important if you could
20 somehow bring the army into your testimony and mention an army uniform?
21 Anybody tell you that might be important if you could remember it?
22 A. No, no.
23 Q. Your boss was not a member of the Army of Yugoslavia, was he?
24 A. Our boss was wearing clothes of a soldier; he was wearing army
1 Q. I know. You told us that. But he wasn't a member of the Army of
2 Yugoslavia, was he? He didn't -- he wasn't a part of any unit, he didn't
3 have a commanding officer that he reported to, he was just wearing a
4 camouflage uniform. Correct?
5 A. My boss was an ordinary soldier. He was mobilised. He was
6 wearing the army clothes. He didn't have any ranks.
7 Q. Well, you don't know that he was mobilised; you're just assuming
8 that he was because you saw him in an uniform. But as far as you know, he
9 just put in an old army uniform because many civilians in the area were
10 wearing old army uniforms at the time. Isn't that true?
11 A. It is so.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all I have. Thank you.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
14 Mr. Cepic.
15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will have
16 just a few questions for the witness.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Gjogaj. My name is Djuro
19 Cepic, attorney-at-law, one of the counsel for General Vladimir Lazarevic.
20 Your boss, Buda, we mentioned him a minute ago, for how many years
21 was he your boss with the company, I mean before 1999?
22 A. When I joined this company, he was there working as a boss
24 Q. Thank you. The firing range we mentioned, and we even saw some
25 photographs of it, this is a large open area, a meadow, isn't it?
1 A. I didn't understand your question very well. You referred to the
2 firing range?
3 Q. Yes, the figure range. This is a meadow, an open space, an open
5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I have no further
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the witness inserted an
8 answer, a brief answer saying:
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is so.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, before Mr. Lukic starts, I would like
13 to have leave to the part and as I do so to ask that 4D21 be admitted.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's there, along with every other exhibit
15 here in the sense that it's been used and to that extent it's part of the
16 record. So you need have no reservation, no worries, about its admission
17 so far as you need --
18 MR. ACKERMAN: I know there's some kind of a process that the
19 registry requires to get it in the proper file.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: We try to avoid using it, Mr. Ackerman.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Your departure, though, just so that I'm left in no
23 doubt is presumably on the basis that you don't anticipate
24 cross-examination of the next witness. There remains a possibility of
25 another witness today. You're aware of that, are you?
1 MR. ACKERMAN: No, I have no awareness of that at all.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't know whether -- well, I don't know what the
3 plans are exactly, but there's a witness, Hamide Fondaj, who I understood
4 arrived last night. Now, I don't know whether that witness is to be led
5 today or not yet, but the witness was on the list for this week.
6 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, Fondaj is not expected to
7 be led today as she just arrived and proofing is -- I believe is taking
8 place as soon as possible.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
10 Well, there you have the answer, Mr. Ackerman. Thank you.
11 Now, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Gjogaj. My name is Branko
15 Lukic, and together with Mr. Dan Ivetic and Mr. Ogrizovic, I appear on
16 behalf of Mr. Lukic.
17 Without mentioning the paragraph number from your statement, I
18 will try to elaborate or clarify something, but should it be necessary we
19 can refer to your statements at any time.
20 In your first statement you mention the exhumation of bodies in
21 Pusto Selo. Is that correct? This is the February 2000 statement.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The procedure of exhumation in Pusto Selo was controlled -- or
24 rather, supervised by an investigative judge and the prosecutor. Is that
1 A. I didn't understand your question. Can you repeat it, please?
2 Q. Certainly. In your statement dated the 27th of February, 2000,
3 you state: "A guard at the mortuary in Pristina told us that the court
4 asked the police in Prizren to check the bodies."
5 Therefore, is it correct to say that the procedure was supervised
6 by an investigative judge? He may not have been present in the field, but
7 do you have any knowledge that the exhumation was requested officially?
8 A. I don't know whether it was requested by the court in Pristina. I
9 don't know anything about that. But I know that we took these bodies to
10 the morgue in Prizren and that on several occasions they were taken to
11 Pristina for autopsy and then again returned to the morgue in Prizren.
12 Some of the bodies after that were buried, some still remained there.
13 Just to put it shortly, I was an ordinary worker. I don't know
14 anything about what you're asking me.
15 Q. Thank you. Did the police escort you all the way to the site of
16 the exhumation and while you were engaged in it? This is the exhumation
17 in Pusto Selo that I have in mind.
18 A. The police was with us because in the beginning they cleared the
19 terrain for us not to be a target or something, so they cleared the
20 terrain first. And then afterward they brought us there, after 15 minutes
21 or 30. Then we carried out our part of the work in a hurry and then left.
22 Q. Thank you. You carried out the work in the day-time. Is it
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The police was securing the site, but they did participate in the
1 actual exhumations. Is that correct?
2 A. The police was securing us. We were assisted by other workers
3 from Rahovec, so we, the employees of Hygijena in Prizren and they from
4 Orahovac, worked together and brought then the bodies to Prizren.
5 Q. Thank you. Each corpse was taken out individually. Is that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Each corpse was put in its own plastic bag?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. On that site the corpses were taken out of individual graves. Is
11 that correct?
12 A. They were normal graves, separated.
13 Q. Thank you. There were photographs taken of each corpse. Is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Each corpse, after having been exhumed, was marked, a tag was put
17 on both the body and the bag. Did you see that as well?
18 A. Yes, because we were carrying these bodies.
19 Q. All the bodies were first taken to Prizren to the hospital and its
20 mortuary so that Dr. Hidajet cause examine the bodies. Is that correct?
21 A. The bodies were taken to Prizren, that's true, but as for Hidajet,
22 whether he was appointed to examine them or not, that I don't know.
23 Q. Thank you. After that all the bodies were taken for autopsy to
24 Pristina. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. After that, all of the bodies were again re-buried in individual
2 graves. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. May we conclude, therefore, as far as you know that the exhumation
5 process in Pusto Selo was undertaken publicly and in keeping with
7 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, this witness would not be aware what the
8 regulations would be --
9 MR. LUKIC: Okay. I'll rephrase. Thank you.
10 Q. [Interpretation] In your view, was this exhumation carried out
11 publicly? Was anything being hidden or concealed?
12 A. We were just brought there, and when we went there I didn't see
13 anyone in that village. We were ordered to perform our work in three
14 hours, to take out the bodies. It was a rainy day. We were very tired.
15 We couldn't even stand on our feet. It took us five hours to take the
16 bodies out, and then we brought them to Prizren. I didn't see anyone in
17 that village except for my colleagues and the police that was protecting
19 Q. Who were they protecting you from, these policemen?
20 A. I don't know who they were protecting us from, but they were in
21 charge. They were there to protect us.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you about exhumations
23 and the firing range and the garbage dump. Is it correct that this
24 exhumation was carried out in a manner which was opposite in all its
25 aspects when compared to the exhumation in Pusto Selo? If you wish, I can
1 actually deal with it question by question.
2 Were you escorted by the police over here, too, from your home to
3 the place where you were supposed to carry out this exhumation?
4 A. For this other place, Buda came, my boss. He collected me from my
5 house with his car. When we went on the site, the excavators were already
6 there, ready for their work. They were just waiting for us, the workers.
7 Q. So from your home to the place where your took your equipment and
8 then from there to the site where the exhumation was to be carried out,
9 you were not escorted by the police, right?
10 A. Our boss, who was with us, was wearing an army uniform and
11 probably they had agreed between themselves because we were in his car and
12 on the site itself we were there and the police was around us to secure
14 Q. Thank you. The work at the firing range was carried out during
15 the night, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You say that the policemen took part in digging up the bodies over
18 there as well, right?
19 A. The Serb police was working with another excavator while we, the
20 workers of Hygijena, we were working with another excavator. They had one
21 refrigerator truck and one excavator and we had one refrigerator truck and
22 one excavator.
23 Q. What am I trying to say? This particular spot, as opposed to the
24 other one in Pusto Selo, at this particular spot at the firing range, the
25 police in your view took part in digging up the bodies, too - that is what
1 you said - and loading the bodies on to the refrigerator truck, right?
2 A. The police was working as we did, in the other hole with the other
3 excavator. So the police was doing the same work. They were digging up
4 the bodies and then they were putting them in the truck.
5 Q. At this site, the bodies had not been buried individually and they
6 were not being taken out individually, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. No pictures were taken on this site after the bodies had been
9 exhumed, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The bodies were not marked during this exhumation either, right?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You did not take these bodies to the hospital in Pristina or to
14 the morgue -- to the hospital in Prizren or the morgue in Pristina, right?
15 A. We loaded these bodies on the refrigerator trucks. The trucks
16 remained there. We got on the Volkswagen make car of my boss and we were
17 taken back to our company in the morning.
18 Q. Thank you. Can we now conclude that the exhumation procedure at
19 the firing range and at the garbage dump was completely different from the
20 one carried out in Pusto Selo?
21 A. That's correct. In Pusto Selo the bodies were buried
22 individually, and in this other location the bodies were in two different
24 Q. Thank you. Right now I don't have an updated transcript from
25 yesterday, but yesterday in response to a question put by my colleague
1 Ms. Carter in line 67 -- or rather, page 67, line 19, you described where
2 this grave was at the firing range. You mentioned that it's below the
3 police station. Are you trying to say that the police station is close to
4 the military artillery firing range or was that a mistake?
5 A. You're asking me? Well, first the Lubishte police station comes
6 and then there is a meadow and you take the road that leads to the firing
8 Q. In your view, how far away is this firing range from the police
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. A hundred metres? A kilometre? Five kilometres? Roughly. You
12 don't have to give us an exact number.
13 A. I don't know how far it is, but it is close, maybe 200 or 300
14 metres. But I cannot be accurate in this because I don't know. I never
15 measured the distance.
16 Q. Was this a police station or a police check-point? I think that
17 in your statement to the investigating judge from Belgrade you refer to a
18 police check-point.
19 A. It was sort of a station. Now, whether it was a police station or
20 a check-point, I don't know, but the police was there, the police
21 responsible for Lubishte and the surrounding area. It served as a police
23 Q. All right. Thank you.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: If you could hold on a minute, Mr. Lukic.
25 Ms. Carter, the witness in the statement refers to an investigator
1 going with him to these locations. Is the investigator to give evidence?
2 MS. CARTER: The investigator's not on our witness list, Your
4 JUDGE BONOMY: It seems pretty basic that if a witness points
5 something out to an investigator, no doubt he would take a photograph,
6 that all of this would be tied together and it would make it much easier
7 than the exercise we're going through, but that hasn't been done?
8 MS. CARTER: Again, Your Honour, to the extent that I am aware,
9 this witness is not on our witness list at this time.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. We'll struggle through.
11 On you go, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Again, Mr. Gjogaj, my learned friend Ms. Carter
14 asked you -- or rather, she put something to you, namely, that at the
15 firing range you and people from your company were in a hole, in a pit
16 when you were getting the corpses out. Were you in there when you were
17 taking out the corpses or was it the excavator that was getting the bodies
18 out, whereas you were waiting by the truck to put them on to the truck?
19 A. Sir, I'm trying to explain things very simply here. I was not the
20 only one that loaded the bodies on the truck. We were four of us. It was
21 the excavator that dug the bodies out, and then we loaded the bodies on to
22 the truck. I think this is very simple. I don't know what else to
24 Q. But you didn't go down into the pit, you didn't, right?
25 A. No, I didn't.
1 Q. Thank you. Now that we're on the subject of the firing range, did
2 you recognise any of the policemen over there at the firing range? Did
3 you see someone there that you knew?
4 A. No, I did not recognise anyone. It was night-time, it was
5 raining, and the police were around us to protect us, so that nobody would
6 come and harass us.
7 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you about Dr. Hidajet in the Prizren
8 hospital. Do you know what his ethnic background is?
9 A. Could you repeat that. What do you mean by that?
10 Q. Dr. Hidajet, do you know what he is by ethnicity? Is he a Serb,
11 an Albanian, a Gorani?
12 A. He's an Albanian.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to have something
15 placed on e-court. 6D74, please.
16 Q. Mr. Gjogaj, I'm going to ask you now --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, Ms. Carter --
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] -- about these camouflage patterns,
19 whether you'll be able to recognise some of them.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter?
21 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I object to the use of any exhibits by
22 the Defence with this witness. All three exhibits that I believe are
23 going to be proposed to be used by the Defence were all known or knowable
24 by them prior to this witness ever taking the stand. They were not
25 submitted into e-court until after this process had already begun today.
1 We had no notice of them yesterday before we came into court, and only
2 once the session began did they ever get released on to e-court.
3 MR. LUKIC: How could we --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this a serious objection? I mean, you are
5 seriously taking this point, in view of the Prosecution's behaviour in
6 relation to these witnesses?
7 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, I do believe that there is
8 a differentiation. The items that are being used by the Defence at this
9 point in time are -- were known or knowable by the Defence prior to this
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Why should they use them if you haven't got your
12 act together and have not put your exhibits into the system? Why should
13 they use them?
14 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, when we receive items they
15 go into the system as quickly as possible. The items that are issued --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, you just throw things in willy-nilly without
17 thought. Why should anybody who's thinking about his case put these items
18 in when you have been unable to find the colour copies of the
19 photographs? Why should they help you to prosecute their clients? Tell
20 me that.
21 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, again, the position of the
22 Prosecution is simply that colours, uniforms, all of these things were at
23 issue prior to today.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but if you can't get your act together and
25 put photographs in, why should the Defence provide you with what you can't
1 do yourself? Tell me that.
2 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, the Defence had these items --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you answer my question? Should the Defence
4 be helping you to make your case against their clients?
5 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, that is the job of the Prosecutor.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. And if you can't get the exhibits together,
7 why should they put stuff in that might assist the Prosecution?
8 MS. CARTER: Again, Your Honour, I'm not certain what answer that
9 you're looking for.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I take the view that your objection is --
11 well, let me consult with my colleagues first before I express a personal
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE BONOMY: We repel the objection. You may use the documents,
15 Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gjogaj, if you look at this photograph with
18 different camouflage uniform patterns, can it be of assistance to you?
19 Can you recognise the camouflage pattern that you saw at the firing range?
20 If you can. If you cannot recognise it, just tell us.
21 A. Sir, first of all, I have been in the army. I have done my
22 military service. I have not seen such kind of uniforms in the army. I
23 know what SNB is, I know what Vojna Policija is. I did not see these
24 colours at the time I completed my military service. I was not an
25 inspector of military clothing. What I know is the army is the army and
1 the police is the police.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see in the system 6D73?
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before you do that, Mr. Gjogaj, have you
5 looked carefully at all of these? Because you'll see that there are 37 of
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see them but I cannot
8 tell the colours. I told the people of the Tribunal what the colours
9 were. I have not seen these colours ever in my life. As I told you, I
10 know what the police are and the army are, but I cannot all the -- know
11 all the colours that army wore.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment, Mr. Lukic.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Continue, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Can we see 6D73 on
17 e-court now, please?
18 [In English] Can you zoom it in, please, a bit so it's bigger?
19 That would be fine, I guess.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gjogaj, what about this photograph, do you
21 see a pattern that would remind you of the pattern that you saw at the
22 firing range on that day?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. Which one is it? Can you describe it to us?
25 A. I don't know how to explain this to you -- multi-coloured.
1 Q. All right.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see on e-court P2317 --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Before --
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 16 --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, before you move on, do you wish this one
6 photoed -- photographed and given an IC number?
7 MR. LUKIC: No, I don't.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think the Court would like it done --
9 MR. LUKIC: Okay --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: -- if you don't mind. So we'll give this an IC
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC43, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. You'll need to note that that is a
14 Court exhibit.
15 Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 [Interpretation] I asked for another document to be put on e-court
18 now, P2317, page 16.
19 [In English] I'm afraid it's not that one. We found something
20 else on the page number 16. We should move five pages up, so it would be
21 46 at the end. The whole number is K0075546. It's the third attachment,
22 I was told. In English version, the third attachment, page number 16.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Which statement is it, Mr. --
24 MR. LUKIC: Here it is.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gjogaj, underneath these photographs, can you
1 see your signature? Down there, underneath the photographs, it
2 says "Gjogaj," right? Is that your signature or --
3 A. Yes, yes, that's my signature.
4 Q. On this page we see four black and white photographs. You put
5 three X's there in circles. What was it that you were marking on these
7 A. I marked about this occasion. I couldn't explain everything that
8 was done in Prizren. I explained here. What I was asked to do I did, and
9 I said that police came and asked us to work. Maybe I make the mistake
10 here. I am a living person, a human being, people make mistakes.
11 Q. On this photograph, could you tell us what it was that you marked
12 actually. What were you asked to mark?
13 A. When they asked me: What kind of uniform? Before I came here to
14 the Tribunal, somebody had -- came and asked me at home: What uniforms
15 were there?
16 Q. So at the firing range you saw all of these uniforms? Were they
17 police uniforms?
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on.
19 Ms. Carter.
20 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, the camouflage patterns
21 that are at issue and the markings that are at issue are actually a part
22 of the first statement which involves Pusto Selo, so I believe it's a
23 misstatement and a mischaracterisation to say that he was describing what
24 was occurring at the firing range using these demarcations.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Where are these referred to in the statement?
1 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, they are in the English version, they
2 would be the -- basically the tenth and eleventh page of the first
3 statement that was given on February 27th of the year 2000 --
4 MR. LUKIC: This attachment, Your Honour, we have --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, just a moment until I have -- one at a
6 time. We'll begin to understand it.
7 My statement only goes to page 7 I think --
8 MR. LUKIC: Can we have the first page on the e-court --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a second, Mr. Lukic, while I deal with this.
10 Now, Ms. Carter, you said it's the tenth or the eleventh page. I
11 think I only have -- I have got seven pages. Now, I want to know where in
12 the narrative the witness says something about these photographs.
13 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, it is not a part of the narrative, as
14 best I can tell, but as to where it comes in --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: I know where I've got it, but what I want to know
16 is how it fits into the statement. Is it just a hanging document without
17 any link to the statement?
18 MS. CARTER: It does not appear that there is a demarcation such
19 as with the no photographs, that the investigator apparently went through
20 this document with him, had him make demarcations, but unfortunately did
21 not put within the narrative of the statement what those X's meant to this
23 JUDGE BONOMY: And what do you understand these X's meant?
24 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, it's my understanding that he was
25 identifying -- testimony has not been elicited by this attorney in regards
1 to Pusto Selo. It is my understanding that there are two lines, first
2 police, then military on the outlying areas, that --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, just stop. This is too
4 complicated. Why is it part of your 92 bis package if you're not relying
5 on it?
6 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, we -- we are relying on the de -- the
7 colour copy showing which uniforms --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: I know you're relying on the colour copy, but
9 that -- the witness has used it in a completely different way from this.
10 What is the purpose of this document being with the package?
11 MS. CARTER: That in regards to the Pusto Selo he was identifying
12 both military and police uniforms at the time, is my understanding of this
14 JUDGE BONOMY: But at the moment -- at the moment there's no
15 evidence of that?
16 MS. CARTER: Correct.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, somehow we got these patterns attached to
19 the statement from the 24th of June, 2000, and even in the e-court these
20 both statements are attached and at the end we have these pictures. So
21 even from the e-court it's not clear whether it comes with the first or
22 with the second statement.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: There's no date against the signature, is there?
24 MR. LUKIC: No, there is not.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we can do two things here. We can either
1 request a full explanation of the situation from the Prosecution, which
2 you would get in writing, or you can cross-examine the witness about it
3 and see how far you can get the matter clarified with the witness.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour, but I think that Ms. Carter is
5 on her legs.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter.
7 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, you simply look to the
8 Bates stamps. The ERN number's on the top. If you look at them in order,
9 it very clearly indicates -- with the original numbers that you can see a
10 strike-out on them and even the numbers above that numerically these
11 documents come with the first statement.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I can see that there might be a basis for
13 suggesting that, but how does that help us in identifying the date at
14 which the witness actually paid attention to this document? All that that
15 establishes is that that document was available when these numbers were
17 MS. CARTER: You can at minimum know that those documents are
18 close in time to the first statement, as there is a clear break in
19 numerical order between the first statement and the second statement.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: All -- all I'm suggesting to you is that that
21 doesn't help us to determine whether they were both dealt with at the same
22 time, because when they are put into your numbering system is not
23 necessarily the date on which the statements were taken, is it?
24 MS. CARTER: Correct, they are not immediately put in.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
1 Mr. Lukic, what do you want to do?
2 MR. LUKIC: I can ask one more question to this witness.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Gjogaj, do you remember when it was that you were asked to
6 identify and mark these photographs? Was it in February or June of 2000?
7 A. I can't remember. I forget. It's been a long time. It's been
8 four or five years from then.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gjogaj. We have no further questions for you, and
10 I thank you for your answers.
11 A. Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
14 Ms. Carter.
15 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, I have no further
16 questions of the witness. However, I do want to point out to the Court
17 apparently it assists if I actually read statements with my eyes open. On
18 paragraph -- the fifth paragraph down of the English specifically denotes
19 that he is putting X's on camouflage patterns, and that's involving the
20 Pusto Selo statement. And I do apologise for the confusion, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: [Microphone not activated].
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: This is the statement of the 27th of February?
24 MS. CARTER: Correct, Your Honour. And that's involving the Pusto
25 Selo, not the firing range or the garbage dump.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: And you say it's the fifth paragraph? One, two,
2 three -- oh, yeah.
3 So Mr. Lukic was right in assuming it was connected to that
5 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour. Mr. Lukic has been implying that
6 that was involving the firing range. That was where my objection came in
7 is that I believed he was identifying in relation to the Pusto Selo -- it
8 was my understanding from Mr. Lukic's argument he was trying to say that
9 these uniforms were being identified at the firing range.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, the problem -- the remaining problem is that
11 that refers to putting on X on the top of the two uniforms that are
12 recognised, and there are three X's. You don't have any insight into
13 that, do you?
14 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Gjogaj, I'm sorry that there's been some
17 confusion about one or two matters in your evidence, but I think you've
18 given us as much help as you can; thank you for that. That completes your
19 evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your evidence, and
20 you're now free to leave.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Who speaks in relation to the next witness?
24 Mr. Stamp.
25 MR. STAMP: Good morning, Your Honours. The next witness is
1 Shefqet Zogaj under Rule 92 bis (D).
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, the paragraphs?
3 MR. STAMP: The paragraphs are paragraph 72(d), 75(d), and 77.
4 Actually, he refers to events which took place in Suva Reka and Belanica.
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, while we're on the topic of the
6 paragraphs in the indictment that this witness is to give evidence on, I
7 wanted to raise one point. Not having had the decision on K82 available
8 to me, I don't know precisely the bases of the Court's findings in regards
9 to that witness, but I note that this witness statement for this witness
10 discusses a number of killings and attacks upon villages that are not
11 referenced in the indictment. And so I just want to bring that to the
12 Court's attention. Again, without having the decision I don't know
13 whether I -- I guess I ought to object, but I don't know how strenuously
14 that should be.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: These are -- just hold the witness outside for the
17 These are villages adjacent to villages which are mentioned in the
19 MR. IVETIC: That is correct, Your Honour. My main concern was
20 with the -- there's a number of killings addressed at pages 3 and 7 of the
21 first statement which are not enumerated in the -- in the indictment at
22 all. The -- my reading of the indictment shows that the only killing that
23 is alleged is with respect to the incident involving the Berisha
25 JUDGE BONOMY: So I'm looking at page 3, which paragraph?
1 MR. IVETIC: At page 3 it's the third -- there's the list of four
2 individuals in the middle of the page, Ramadan Sukaj, Hafiz Shala, Osman
3 Elshani, and Albert last name unknown. And then on page --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, I've not found that.
5 MR. IVETIC: It's page 3, ERN number 00755395 it looks like. Do
6 you have his -- that's the first statement from 1999, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm looking at the wrong one.
8 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Stamp, what's your position on this?
10 It's --
11 MR. STAMP: The --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: -- said that the killings are confined to the
13 Berisha family.
14 MR. STAMP: The killings referred to in the statement, which we
15 purpose to impart with the evidence, if one looks at pages 2, 3, to 5 are
16 part of a narrative of the deportation from Suva Reka and the surrounding
17 villages, part of a narrative of killings, crimes against Albanians which
18 led to 80.000 people being gathered in the fields, in the village of
19 Belanica in particular, and thereafter deported.
20 So this is part of the Prosecution's case, a narrative of
21 killings, crimes against Albanians in Suva Reka municipality leading to
22 the deportation of the people from Suva Reka, from that municipality.
23 If you look at paragraph 72(d) in particular --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: [Microphone not activated].
25 MR. STAMP: Yes.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: 72(d)?
2 MR. STAMP: (D).
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry?
4 MR. STAMP: 72(d), D as in David, (i) --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, the killings there referred to are of male
7 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
8 JUDGE BONOMY: We consider that the evidence is, on the face of
9 it, admissible on the basis indicated by Mr. Stamp. There's -- there is
10 some force in what Mr. Ivetic submits because where there are events
11 involving deportation which result in murders of people identified, then
12 we would normally have expected to see some reference to these in the
13 schedules. But there is an adequate averment in 72(d) certainly to lead
14 the evidence that's referred to in page 3 on the face of it.
15 MR. IVETIC: At page 3, I agree, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: The position in relation to page 7 may be
17 different. But there comes a point when it is unrealistic to try and
18 divide up a witness's statement. So what the Trial Chamber will do is
19 ensure that in the end of the day regard is not had to evidence which
20 would fall outwith the ambit of the decision we've made, viewed in the
21 spirit of which that decision was made in relation to Witness K82,
22 otherwise we'll spend most of our time in legal argument. But you can
23 rest assured that if something appears to us to fall outwith the terms of
24 this indictment read broadly as we ought to read it but also having regard
25 to what notice it gives to the Defence, then we will exclude that evidence
1 ultimately when we come to deliberate.
2 MR. IVETIC: That's fair enough. Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: So you can proceed, Mr. Stamp, with the witness on
4 the basis of the statement.
5 MR. STAMP: [Microphone not activated].
6 JUDGE BONOMY: [Microphone not activated].
7 Sorry. We'll break now and we'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00
8 and commence the evidence then.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Zogaj.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to
15 tell the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed
16 before you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
20 Now, you -- you should not need any documents of your own. We
21 should have all the documents here. So just please pay no attention to
22 these documents unless someone asks you to do so. It's not appropriate
23 for you to be reading from anything other than the documents that will be
24 placed in front of you. We already have been before us a written
25 transcript of the evidence you gave when you were here on a previous
1 occasion, and we also have copies of statements that you've given. That's
2 the thickness of the bundle of material we already have about evidence you
3 can give the Tribunal, we've read it, so we know what you can say about
4 many things. You're going to be asked questions to either explain some of
5 it further or to clarify things, and you'll be asked questions to
6 challenge it. The important thing is: We don't go through all this again
7 in detail. The important thing is to concentrate on the questions you're
8 asked and to deal with the particular point that arises in each question,
9 because we want your answer to the particular issues that counsel ask you
10 about. So please try to concentrate on the individual points that are
11 raised in the questions, and that will give us the maximum amount of
12 information to enable us to reach the right decision.
13 The first counsel to ask questions of you will be for the
14 Prosecution, Mr. Stamp.
15 Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 WITNESS: SHEFQET ZOGAJ
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Examination by Mr. Stamp:
20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Zogaj. Please spell your name --
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. Thank you. Please state your name and spell your surname.
23 A. My name is Shefqet Zogaj.
24 Q. And I understand that you were born in the village of Belanica in
25 Kosovo, in Suva Reka municipality in Kosovo?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And I also take it that you are a journalist?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you recall on the 26th of April, 1999, you gave a statement to
5 offices of the OTP?
6 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
7 Q. And you gave another statement to the OTP on the 18th of June,
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And these statements were in relation to events that occurred in
11 your municipality in March and April of 1999?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, on the 3rd of February, 2002, and the 5th of February, 2002,
14 you also gave declarations acknowledging the truth of the contents of
15 those two statements?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Indeed you made one correction in respect to the statement of the
18 26th of April, 1999, which --
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Your Honour -- it's in the English
21 record in e-court. I understand there was some difficulty in getting it
22 on the B/C/S record in e-court. So I'll just take him through it in
23 viva voce.
24 Q. In paragraph -- or I should say at page 3 of the first statement,
25 the English statement, English version it is written here that Zoran Lazic
1 was the head of the municipality of Suva Reka. I believe when you gave
2 your declaration on the 3rd of February, 2002, you made a correction and
3 said that in fact he was the chief or the main criminal in the
4 municipality of Suva Reka, in your view, not that he was the head of the
5 municipality. Do you remember making that correction?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, that is in which paragraph -- is it the
8 page numbered 3?
9 MR. STAMP: The page numbered 3.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: And the paragraph is?
11 MR. STAMP: It's the first paragraph, first paragraph beginning on
12 that page.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, yeah. Thank you.
14 MR. STAMP:
15 Q. Subsequent to your giving this declaration in 2002, 24th of April,
16 2002, you also attended here and gave evidence in the trial of Slobodan
17 Milosevic. That is correct as well?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, for the record, the statement of the
20 26th of April, 1999, with the 92 bis declaration is P2322. That of 18th
21 of June, 2001, also with the 92 bis declaration is P2323. And the
22 transcript is P2324; that is a transcript from the previous case.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, these are all now part of the record in this
25 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Zogaj, I'd like to focus primarily on the events of the 1st of
2 April, 1999. But by way of background, I'd just like you to show us on a
3 map where your town is, your village of Belanica is in relation to the
4 municipality -- the other places in the municipality.
5 MR. STAMP: Could we look at P615 or could it be placed on
6 e-court, please? Page 23.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you zoom it in a bit because I
8 can't see clearly.
9 MR. STAMP: Could we zoom out a bit now, please?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was okay.
11 MR. STAMP:
12 Q. Can you see it clearly now?
13 MR. STAMP: Or could we have one -- yes.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now I can see.
15 MR. STAMP:
16 Q. Do you see there towards the left centre of the map the main town
17 in the municipality, the town of Suva Reka?
18 A. Yes, I can see Suhareke here. Then you go towards Duhla, then to
19 Bllace, Temeqin and Bellanice. It's on the seventh kilometre from Duhla
20 to Malisheve.
21 Q. Okay. Now, your village of Belanica, I would like you to identify
22 exactly where it is on the map first and then put a circle around it.
23 A. [Marks].
24 Q. You said by the 1st of April or the 31st of March, 1999, and I'm
25 here referring to the first full paragraph that starts on -- or the first
1 paragraph that starts on page 4 of the English version, and I think the
2 first paragraph that starts on page 4 of the B/C/S version that about --
3 you said: "On the 31st of March, 1999, about 80.000 people had gathered
4 in the three villages of Belanica," which you just showed us, "Guncat, and
6 Do you see firstly Guncat on that map?
7 A. Yes, the other one is Lladroviq.
8 Q. Do you see both Guncat and Lladroviq?
9 A. It's not Llandroviq, it's the village Lladroviq.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 A. [Marks].
12 Q. You have just circled Lladroviq or is that Guncat?
13 A. No, you cannot see it here on this map. It's a little bit higher.
14 If you could lower the map a little bit.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we lower it without destroying the markings?
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
17 MR. STAMP: Very well. I'm going to ask the usher if he could --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 MR. STAMP: [Previous translation continues] ... same map a little
20 lower and we can do the markings very quickly.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, we can abandon this one and bring it slightly
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's okay now.
24 MR. STAMP: Could you do it in such a way that we also see
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not here now on this map.
2 It was okay before.
3 MR. STAMP: Can you take it up so we see Malisevo at the top of
4 the map?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a little lower, please.
6 MR. STAMP: No, the other way.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now -- now it's okay.
8 MR. STAMP:
9 Q. Okay. Could you just put circling around those three towns you
10 just spoke of.
11 A. Three villages.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. You're welcome.
14 Q. Now, I think you told us in your statements and also in the
15 Milosevic case that these 80.000 people gathered there by the 31st of
16 March were refugees coming in from the surrounding villages over the
17 previous few days. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And at about that time, my understanding is that there was an
20 offensive of Serb forces in the area. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And I understood you to say in the Milosevic case as well as in
23 your statement that many of the people gathered, the 80.000 people
24 gathered, to escape the fighting?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You also told us in your statement that as the Serbian forces
2 attacked or advanced, many civilians were killed. And you named some of
3 them at page 3 of your statement that you knew of, including Ramadan
4 Sukaj, Hafiz Shala, Osman Elshani, and one Albert, whose last name you do
5 not know. Do you recall that?
6 A. Yes, these people were killed in the town of Suhareke on the 25th
7 and 26th of March, 1999. All these killings were committed by Milorad
8 Nisavic. His nickname was Miska. There was one person who escaped, Sejdi
9 Bytyqi, a history professor from the village of Semetishte.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, it's indicated in your statement that you got --
11 in your village and in the surrounding areas that you got this information
12 from people who were coming in that people were being killed. Now, is the
13 fear caused by the information that these people, some of whom you know
14 were being killed by the Serb forces, one of the reasons why people were
15 escaping and gathering in the area of your village?
16 A. Yes. Bellanice was a little quieter until the 1st of April, 1999.
17 Q. Thank you. Let's move to that --
18 A. You're welcome.
19 Q. And on that day or prior to the 1st of April, 1999, were there KLA
20 elements or forces in Belanica?
21 A. The KLA stayed in Bellanice until the 28th of March of 1999. On
22 that day, seeing that from Malisheve and Lladroviq and Nishor, the Serbian
23 police forces were coming from those directions. They left the village
24 and the Albanian population and went to the mountains of Llapusha.
25 Q. You said --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a small
3 intervention for the transcript. Page 39, line 21, I think that this name
4 is out of context. I'm not sure that the witness actually mentioned the
5 name. I don't know how it got into the transcript.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did mention Sejdi Bytyqi.
7 MR. STAMP:
8 Q. You indicated that he was the history teacher who escaped killings
9 in Suva Reka and came and told you about the killings in Suva Reka of
11 A. Yes, Sejdi Bytyqi. Sejdi Bytyqi was one of the witnesses who
12 escaped the execution. And for four or five hours he stayed in the sewage
13 of the Suhareke town in order to be safe, while on the night of the 25th
14 and the 26th of March went to Peqan and Semetishte and then to Bellanice.
15 When he arrived at Bellanice, I met him and everything, I told you earlier
16 about the killings I learned from him, Sejdi Bytyqi, the history teacher.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. STAMP: I think my friend is right, it's out of place on that
19 line, but he did mention him earlier in his testimony.
20 MR. IVETIC: I think it's at line 14 that the name should go.
21 There's a reference to the name and there's a marcation for the last name.
22 So I think it was just put on the wrong line.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well, it may just be updating the transcript,
24 Mr. Visnjic, but there you have it all in context now.
25 So we can continue, Mr. Stamp.
1 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Let's keep focussed on the 1st of April for the time being,
3 Mr. Zogaj.
4 After the KLA left Belanica on the 28th, did they return or pass
5 through Belanica?
6 A. The night when the military and police forces led by the
7 paramilitaries, the Serb paramilitaries, came from the direction of
8 Bllace, Nishor, Semetishte, Duhla -- sorry, Malisheve, that's what I
9 meant, the KLA was not able to defend its points anymore. So they were
10 forced to leave the trenches. So on the 31st of March to the 1st of April
11 up to 8.00 in the morning, they were there. But after that, no KLA
12 soldier remained in the village.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to get the sequence correct. The KLA had
14 been in the village up to the 28th of March, and as the Serb military --
15 and they left on the 28th of March. But as the Serb military advanced --
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry for interrupting my learned
19 friend, but I think that it's quite clear in the transcript what the
20 witness had said, and now this is a leading question and is leading the
21 witness to another answer. The witness said up to the 31st of March -- or
22 rather, the 1st of April they were in the village until the 1st of April
23 quite clearly, the 1st of April, 8.00 in the morning. And now the witness
24 is being led to answer otherwise --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Please be quiet for the moment until we deal with
2 Yeah, Mr. Stamp.
3 MR. STAMP: No, no, I'm not leading the witness to answer
4 otherwise. I'm leading the witness to clarify what he meant when they
5 were there on the 1st of April when he said earlier that they had left on
6 the 28th of March. There's an explanation for that which I think both of
7 us know which the Court should know.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: And nevertheless I think it's probably correct to
9 say that that's a leading question and that you should deal with this in
10 more open questions. So rephrase that, please.
11 MR. STAMP: Very well.
12 Q. You said earlier that they had left the village on the 28th of
13 March, and you also said later that on the 1st of March they were at the
14 village --
15 MR. LUKIC: Same objection, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I agree. I think you've got to deal with
17 this with open questions and ask the witness about the sequence of the KLA
18 departing from the village, and then we'll get it clear that way from his
19 recollection rather than from you putting words into his mouth.
20 MR. STAMP:
21 Q. The KLA left the village on the 28th of March. Do you know about
22 their movements in respect to the --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, we don't know at the moment if that is
24 accurate, because we have a number of dates on which it has already been
25 said that the KLA were in the village beyond the 28th of March. So to say
1 it in broad terms, as you have done, they left on the 28th of March, is
2 putting words in the witness's mouth. I'm beginning to wonder now if
3 you'll get any valuable answers because three times you've asked the same
4 leading question. Do you want me to do it for you or are you going to ask
5 it by -- are you going to ask open questions?
6 MR. STAMP: No, Your Honour, I'm putting to the witness what he
7 said. Very well.
8 Q. Witness, what were the movements of the KLA in respect to Belanica
9 on the 28th of March and thereafter?
10 A. On the 28th of March I said in the beginning -- maybe I was not
12 On the 28th of March the KLA, which was stationed at the village
13 in the old school, primary school of the village, which in fact was
14 shelled later by the Serb forces. At that day they left the village,
15 while members of the KLA who were in their points in Bllace, Semetishte,
16 Peqan, Dragobil, Malisheve and elsewhere came during the night of the
17 31st of March and 1st of April and went towards quieter villages in the
18 mountains of Llapusha. So there's no doubt about this.
19 You are asking me: Why did they leave on the 28th and why were
20 they still there on the 1st of April? I explained it.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you understand it, Mr. Stamp, I don't. So
23 you should know that.
24 MR. STAMP:
25 Q. After the KLA who were based in the school on the 28th departed
1 Belanica, you said that KLA members from the points of Blace and some
2 other areas went to Belanica. Did they remain there or did they pass
3 through Belanica?
4 A. I said earlier, they passed through Bellanice to go towards
5 Llapusha, to the mountains there.
6 Q. And they passed through Belanica on what date?
7 A. It was the night of the 31st of March and 1st of April, 1999.
8 Q. So to sum up, the KLA that were posted in Belanica departed on
9 the 28th, on the night of the 31st and the morning of the 1st of April
10 other KLA passed through the village. That's correct?
11 A. I will make it clear once again because I don't think it's
12 clear --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you do. Are you saying that that's an
14 inaccurate summary?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if it's clear to the
16 Prosecutor what I said. What I said was the following, that on the
17 28th --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Stop again, stop again. It doesn't matter whether
19 it's clear to the Prosecutor or not; it's to be clear to the Court. And
20 what the Prosecutor has just said to you is: "What I understand you to
21 have said." Now, are you telling us that that is inaccurate?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Then let us start all over again,
24 Mr. Stamp.
25 MR. STAMP:
1 Q. The --
2 A. That's correct, that's correct.
3 Q. You mean what I put to you earlier was correct?
4 A. On the 1st of April, members of the KLA that were in fighting
5 positions, they passed through Bellanice in order to get to more quieter
6 villages in the mountains of Llapusha, and I don't know what is not clear
8 Q. Thank you. Now by what time in the day of the 1st of April had
9 they left Belanica?
10 A. Early in the morning, before 8.00.
11 Q. Now, you said --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: We've -- I mean, that's a -- I find that a
13 misleading question. I didn't realise they were in Belanica on the 1st of
14 April. I thought they were passing through it, but now we have the
15 concept that they are leaving it on the 1st of April. I mean is --
16 MR. STAMP: By that I mean they passed through and left. I want
17 to know when the last --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, I see. All right.
19 MR. STAMP:
20 Q. And you said in your statement that by 11.00 there were in excess
21 of 30.000 people gathered in the fields at Belanica?
22 A. Which date are you talking about?
23 Q. The 1st of April. Sorry, I should have put that there.
24 A. On the 1st of April in Bellanice there were around 80.000
25 inhabitants, 80.000 people from the surrounding villages who were
1 sheltering there.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: In your statement you actually say that on the 28th
3 of March there were 30.000 people in the village of Belanica. Now
4 Mr. Stamp is asking you if that was the position on the 1st of April, but
5 your statement also said -- your statement also says that this increased
6 to 80.000 on the 31st. So he seems to be trying to --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: -- clarify something that may be inaccurate in your
9 statement. Is that the position?
10 MR. STAMP: I want to get the evidence from him because there
11 might be an issue around the numbers. So may I just ask him.
12 Q. You said in your --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: But where in the statement does he say that by
14 11.00 there were 30.000 people in the fields of Belanica?
15 MR. STAMP: He said --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Which is what you put to him, that at 11.00 on the
17 1st of April there were 30.000 people gathered in the fields. Now, show
18 me where that is.
19 MR. STAMP: He said earlier on that by the 28th of March, 1999,
20 there were about 30.000 people in the village of Belanica.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: We know that.
22 MR. STAMP: He goes on to say that other people were joining them,
23 and then he reaches now to the 1st of April. That is why I put to him
24 that in excess of 30.000, since on the 28th of March there were 30.000 and
25 people were joining them between the 28th and 1st.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. I have to say, Mr. Stamp, it's not a
2 very helpful way of trying to advance matters. The statement's perfectly
3 clear and we're getting into oral evidence that's simply confusing things.
4 MR. STAMP:
5 Q. Witness, you said -- or you agreed with me that on the 1st of
6 April, 1999, there were people -- there were in excess of 30.000 people
7 gathered in the fields at Belanica. Is that correct?
8 A. I don't agree with you, because on the 1st of April there were
9 around 80.000 --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Stop.
11 Why do you want to get back to this figure of 30.000 on the 1st of
12 April, when the statement says 80.000. I mean, I know that 80.000 is in
13 excess of 30.000, but not in the mind of the witness, and one can
14 understand that.
15 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, the witness said in his statement this:
16 "On the 31st of March, thousands of people from the village of --
17 villages of," and he names the villages, "... gathered in Belanica." And
18 before that he had said 30.000.
19 He goes on to say: "This increased to 80.000, the number of
20 people who had concentrated in the three villages of Guncat, Lladroviq,
21 and Belanica."
22 So you are saying that he is saying in his statement that 80.000
23 are gathered in Belanica. I am reading his statement that he said that
24 80.000 people were gathered in Belanica, Guncat, and Lladroviq. I just
25 want him to clarify that.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sure there must be a particular reason for
2 identifying how many were in the individual three villages, Mr. Stamp, and
3 if there is, then please carry on.
4 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
5 Q. The -- of the people who were gathered in Belanica and the other
6 two villages we mentioned, were there any KLA members at 11.00 on the
7 1st of April, 1999?
8 A. I want to point out here that only in Bellanice there were around
9 80.000 people, not including Guncat and Lladroviq. If we include those
10 villages, then this number would mount to above 100.000 people. I don't
11 know why is this confusion about Guncat, Lladroviq, and Bellanice. Only
12 in Bellanice there were around 80.000 people on the 1st of April.
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 A. You're welcome.
15 Q. Now, the 80.000 people in Belanica on the 1st of April, were there
16 KLA members among them at 11.00 or so?
17 A. No, there weren't.
18 Q. You said in your statement that when the Serbian forces entered
19 the village around 60 men went out with white flags to meet them, and they
20 were seized by the Serbian forces. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes. Around 60 men, elderly persons mainly, they went out with a
22 white flag to surrender themselves because there was no other way out for
23 them, while these Serbian military and police forces, following the orders
24 from the above, they beat them up. And immediately after this, after the
25 beatings, they began to expel the population.
1 I want to make something else clear here, something that you
2 didn't mention. The Serbian police and military forces entered the
3 village by shelling from different artillery equipment, like tanks,
4 machine-guns, and other equipment. They didn't enter the village
5 quietly --
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zogaj, I've told you already that we already
7 have this information, and the questions that are being asked are to
8 clarify points, apparently, although one has to wonder whether that's a
9 successful exercise. But we don't need you to go over again what's
10 actually written down here; it's here in our minds already.
11 MR. STAMP:
12 Q. When the Serbian forces entered the village, you said in your
13 statement that they were burning houses as they entered the village, and
14 then they started to expel the population. Was there any resistance from
15 the people who had gathered? Did anybody fire at the Serbian forces as
16 they entered the village?
17 A. No, nobody fired at them, not a single person. The Serbs were the
18 ones who fired at the civilian population.
19 Q. Now you said that the Serb forces that entered the village were
20 composed of the police, the military, and paramilitaries. Can you
21 describe how you are able to distinguish and identify these various
23 A. Yes, on the basis of their uniforms.
24 Q. What did the police, let's start with them, the police wear? How
25 were they dressed?
1 A. They had blue uniforms.
2 Q. And the soldiers?
3 A. The soldiers had green uniforms.
4 Q. And the paramilitaries?
5 A. They had black uniforms and had scarfs around their necks. They
6 had beards. Some of them had long hair, some had shaven heads.
7 Q. Now, did these three elements or these three groups act separately
8 or did they act together in formation when they entered the town?
9 A. They acted together.
10 Q. You mentioned that among the formations that entered the town
11 there were military vehicles. I'd like to show you some photographs of
12 military vehicles now. Could you tell me if you can identify those that
13 entered the town.
14 But first I'd like to clear the map. Could that be given a --
15 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC44, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 MR. STAMP: And could 13 -- P1325 be placed on the ELMO? Is this
18 page 2? Could you move to page 2?
19 Q. Can you say whether or not the vehicles you see here were vehicles
20 that were used in the operation in Belanica?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How many of them?
23 A. The one here under number 5, it belonged to the Serbian police.
24 The other under number 6 is of the Serbian army. Number 8 is of the
25 Serbian army. Same goes for number 7.
1 I would like to point out that on the 1st of April in Bellanice
2 not only that they entered by tanks, but they entered using excavators and
3 trucks in order to be able to loot the village and the civilians that had
4 gathered there and afterwards to expel them to Albania.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, the --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, excavators should be
7 replaced with bulldozers.
8 MR. STAMP:
9 Q. Now, you said that the population were expelled and forced to
10 leave in a convoy towards Albania by these Serb forces that you have
11 mentioned. To be more precise, you said they were guided out in two
12 directions. How were the population expelled and guided out of the
14 A. Your Honours, I would like to mention here that as soon as they
15 entered, the Serbian police, paramilitary, and military forces in
16 Bellanice, they shattered shelling. And as a result of the shelling, two
17 people who were sheltering there from the village of Reti, Nazlie and
18 Drite Kryezliu, mother and daughter, they were killed. A number of people
19 sheltering in Bellanice were beaten and looted and killed. Among those
20 who were captured was myself, two policemen, both of them wearing masks.
21 They took us out of the car and took us to the basement of my house in
22 order to execute me. They were asking for money, and because of the money
23 I managed to survive. They closed the door and told us to stay inside.
24 After they left, I opened the door, left that place, and again went to my
25 car. And in my car they tortured me and they fired at me. And you can
1 still find the traces of this.
2 After I entered the car, another two policemen --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Stop there. We have all this in very considerable
4 detail --
5 THE WITNESS: Okay.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: -- much more than you've said already. We know
7 exactly what happened to you.
8 The Prosecutor's question wasn't concerned with you alone; it was
9 concerned with all the people who were there. And that's our concern,
10 that we cover the interests of everyone. Now, could you listen again to
11 his question and please try to answer the question that he's going to ask
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. When you say, as you've said previously, that these people, the
15 80.000 people, were expelled from Belanica and were guided out in two
16 directions, explain what you mean in respect to these 80.000 people
17 leaving Belanica in those circumstances. How were they guided out by
18 these Serb forces?
19 A. In order to be able to explain this, I have to go into details
20 because they, as soon as they entered the village, in a savage way they
21 began to beat up the people regardless of their age, regardless of their
22 gender. They were beating up everybody. They were stealing things from
23 them, they were cursing them, offending them on a nationalist basis --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Stop there. In case I've misunderstood the
25 position. Are you not trying to find out directions that people were sent
1 and these matters that we need to know?
2 MR. STAMP: Yes.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Because we already have the details of the
4 violence. But we need to know, you think, more about where people went
5 and how they were directed --
6 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: -- in particular ways. Thank you.
8 MR. STAMP:
9 Q. Very well. You said the people were guided out and directed in
10 two directions. Could you tell me which two directions the people were
11 forced out to go to?
12 A. The first direction was Malisheve and then to Rahovec, Zazev
13 [phoen], Prizren, and then finally to the Albanian-Albanian [as
14 interpreted] border. The second direction was Temeqin, Bllace, Duhla,
15 Suhareke, Prizren, and Morina. This is the truth.
16 Q. And which direction did you go?
17 A. I went in the direction of Duhla, Suhareke, and Prizren.
18 Q. And did you return from Albania eventually?
19 A. I returned from Albania when the war ended, on the 21st of June,
21 Q. When you returned, what was the condition of your village?
22 A. Bellanice was burnt down, 70 per cent of the village was burnt
23 down. The vehicles that had remained there, that had been stopped there
24 by the Serbian police, military, and paramilitary forces, they were also
25 burned. We have pictures of those --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: From what you've said, Mr. Zogaj, can I take it
2 that both groups went through Prizren?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 Mr. Stamp.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
7 MR. STAMP:
8 Q. As you said you have pictures of them.
9 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, the witness brought along with him
10 yesterday some pictures which we managed to scan quickly and disclose them
11 to the Defence and load them on e-court. I would like to show him just a
12 few of the many photographs.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: These are photographs of what?
14 MR. STAMP: Photographs of the -- of his house that was damaged --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: When he returned?
16 MR. STAMP: When he returned.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we establish when these photographs were taken,
18 first of all?
19 When were they taken, Mr. Zogaj?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These photographs were taken on the
21 21st and 22nd of June, 1999.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: You said you returned on the 22nd, so I think --
23 can we take it --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 21st.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: 21st.
1 Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
2 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry, I'm just trying to verify that in fact we
3 have received the documents. It looks like they are now on e-court, but
4 obviously if we did receive them, we received them last night.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Bearing in mind what they are, though, does it
6 really cause any difficulty for you?
7 MR. IVETIC: Not now that I found out what they are. I stood
8 before that.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
10 MR. STAMP:
11 Q. Who took these photographs; do you know?
12 A. I did.
13 MR. STAMP: Could we have a look at P2345, photograph 1 of that
14 set? Could we rotate it clockwise, please.
15 Q. Could you tell us what is shown there?
16 A. This is my house. It's burnt. It was burnt by the Serbian
17 police, military, and paramilitaries during the war after the 1st of
18 April. You can see an evidence of the Serb barbarism here, because they
19 couldn't even stand to have our houses in our own land.
20 Q. Very well. Thank you.
21 A. You're welcome.
22 Q. How about the other houses in the village?
23 A. Same.
24 Q. Same meaning that they were also burnt?
25 A. Burnt, yes.
1 Q. About what proportion of the houses in the village were burnt and
3 A. 70 per cent.
4 MR. STAMP: Could we also have a look at paragraph 3 -- or page 3
5 of this set?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the basement of the house
7 where we had our valuables hidden. This is the basement of the house of
8 my uncle where we had hidden our valuables, but this basement was burnt as
10 MR. STAMP:
11 Q. You told us in your statement that people who you knew, and you
12 also named them in your statement, were killed by the Serbian forces in
13 Belanica as you were driven out and while you were on your way to Albania.
14 You also indicated that your relatives, Shaban Zogaj, Sali Zogaj, Elmi
15 Zogaj, and Sami Zogaj were also taken away by Serb forces while they were
16 on their way to Albania and not seen since, and that was up to the time
17 you have testified in the Milosevic case. Do you know if they have been
18 found since that?
19 A. I would like to point out that Shaban Zogaj, a teacher of
20 geography in our village, was kidnapped in Ostrozub village, and he is
21 still a missing person; while Sali Hamet Zogaj and Elmi Zogaj, when we
22 returned from Albania, we learned that they were found killed.
23 Q. And I understand that --
24 A. They were found in the cemetery of Rahovec.
25 MR. STAMP: Could we have a look at photo number 4 -- or page
1 number 4 of this photo set.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: What did you say was the full name of Sali? What's
3 his full name?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Sali Zogaj. This should be his
5 name, and this is not his picture.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: No, before we -- forget the picture for the moment.
7 We have a note of a name Sali Hamet Zogaj. Is that correct or incorrect?
8 A. Sali Hamet Zogaj. It is correct.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not Hamet but Hamit.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
12 Mr. Stamp.
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. The photograph you see in front of you, what does that depict?
15 A. This depicts the killings, the barbarism, the Serb genocide over
16 the Albanian civilian population.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that doesn't help us. I think Mr. Stamp
18 wants to know more detail about the picture.
19 MR. STAMP:
20 Q. Do you know who that is?
21 A. Sami Zogaj.
22 Q. Where was he found?
23 A. In the cemetery in Rahovec.
24 Q. And you said you took these photographs. What date did you take
25 this photograph; do you remember? Or can you approximate?
1 A. I can't remember. It might be on the back of the photograph, if
2 you have a look, or maybe in my diary.
3 MR. STAMP: Could we move on to page 5 of that set? That's the
4 back of the photograph.
5 Q. Did you make these writings on the photograph and does it --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And does it help you to -- help you in respect to the date when
8 you took it?
9 A. In this note, I cannot see the date of the photograph. This date
10 here shows the date when Sami was taken away, was kidnapped in Rahovec.
11 Q. Very well. I'm going to show you three photographs quickly and
12 could you just tell me who they are?
13 MR. STAMP: Could we move to photograph 6 in that batch?
14 Q. Who is that?
15 A. Can I just make one clarification here or an explanation? Even --
16 I wanted to explain something about the former photograph as well -- or if
17 you could put all four photographs on the screen.
18 Q. Okay. Can we just identify the photographs and then you can
19 clarify what it is you need to clarify. There are a couple others.
20 Who is this?
21 A. This is why I wanted all four photographs to be on the -- on the
22 screen, because it's been a long time that I haven't seen these
23 photographs and that would help me.
24 Q. Very well. Did you --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Why does this matter when these persons are not the
1 subject of murder charges?
2 MR. STAMP: These persons -- these persons were killed in the
3 circumstances which according to his -- to his narrative, these were the
4 circumstances in which they were deported from Kosovo to Albania and they
5 were expelled. The entire environment of terror.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand the relevance. We've dealt with that
7 already. But why do we need to go through an identification process if
8 there's no charge of murder in relation to these individuals. We don't
9 have to make findings about their killings, do we?
10 MR. STAMP: Not specifically in respect to entering a verdict.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: No.
12 MR. STAMP: But the fact of these killings in general.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it looks like you're going to have to put all
14 four on the screen somehow or other on the screen to deal with the
15 questions that you want to ask.
16 MR. STAMP:
17 Q. You wrote on the back of each photograph the names of the persons
18 who are depicted in the photograph.
19 Could we move to the next page and therefore you could tell us who
20 that person is.
21 Who is that person that was shown?
22 A. Elmi Jashar Zogaj, kidnapped on the 1st of April, and he was found
23 killed after we returned from Albania in the cemetery in Rahovec.
24 MR. STAMP: Could we move to paragraph 8, please, or page 8.
25 Q. And just have a look at the photograph and then we could move to
1 the back of the photograph, which is page 9.
2 A. This is Sali Hamit Zogaj.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. STAMP: In which case we could move to page 10.
5 Q. Can you say who that is or do you need to look at the back?
6 A. If I'm not mistaken, he's Skender Morina from the village of
7 Samadrexha, but we can have a look at the photograph.
8 Q. Please go to the next page.
9 A. This is a picture --
10 Q. Well, tell us what it is.
11 A. Not Samadrexha but Samodraxha, because they are different.
12 Samadrexha, S-a-m-a.
13 Q. This picture shows what in it, the one before you?
14 A. This picture was taken on the 28th of March when there were about
15 30.000 people in the village.
16 Q. And what does it show us?
17 A. Among these people -- of course these people were people who were
18 expelled from the villages where there was fighting to come to villages
19 where it was a quieter situation, in Bellanice, for example. There were
20 wound wounded people from the Banje village. For example, Velima Begaj
21 [phoen] was heavily wounded and she died in Bellanice.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Is she in the photograph?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She is not in the photograph.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, listen to the question. You're being asked:
25 What does the photograph show us? You're an intelligent man. You must be
1 able to understand the questions that are asked of you. Please. So
2 please tell us what's in the photograph.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see here the people coming
4 from other villages, people on tractors, cars, and also horses and carts.
5 MR. STAMP:
6 Q. Thank you. I --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: That's what that photograph shows us, is it?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: The people on the left of the photograph, what are
10 they doing? Are they just concealing a clear view of the various vehicles
11 that they were travelling in?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you can see here a white car.
13 The ones the plastic coverings are trailers, tractors with trailers, and
14 the people kept their bare essentials, you know, like food and clothes.
15 This is a Lada make car. And then after -- behind the Lada you can see
16 the tractor, a red tractor.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 Now, Mr. Stamp, the last person who was named from a photograph,
19 do we see that name at all anywhere in the statement?
20 MR. STAMP: No, that person is not in the statement, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
22 MR. STAMP:
23 Q. You said earlier -- and I'm closing now, Your Honour. You said
24 earlier that one Niskovic, according to the information you had, was
25 responsible for the killings in Suva Reka on and after the 25th of March.
1 Could you repeat the name, please?
2 A. Milorad Nisavic. He had the nickname Miska, and he also was known
3 by the name of Milorad Miskovic. That's why he had this nickname Miska.
4 He was known, notorious in the Suhareke area as a killer.
5 Q. What was his, if any, role or function officially? Did he have a
6 particular post that he was employed to?
7 A. He was head of the police in Suhareke.
8 Q. Do you know which section of the police?
9 A. I don't know which department.
10 Q. Okay. In respect to the events leading to the expulsion of these
11 80.000 people from your village and your community, you also I take it
12 gave an interview and related the events to persons from the organisation
13 Human Rights Watch while you were in Albania. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I have nothing
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zogaj, going back to Milorad Miskovic, at the
18 same point in your statement you refer to someone by the name Zhika?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Who is that person?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was also a policeman in Suhareke.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that his surname or his first name?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We knew him as "Zhika." I don't
24 know whether it was his name or surname, but he was known in the villages
25 around us because he was part of a police patrol that went to these
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you know what level he was in the police force?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the 1st of April -- or better
4 to say, before the war started, the municipality of Suhareke -- he was a
5 policeman in Suhareke. He patrolled the streets in Suhareke and the
6 surrounding villages, especially in Duhla, Bllace, and Bellanice. The
7 people knew him.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: He was an ordinary police officer? He wasn't a
9 commander or a superior officer?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't say. I don't know
11 whether he was superior officer because sometimes these police officers,
12 if they committed a crime, sometimes they were promoted. So I don't know,
13 but I can say that they took part in crimes -- he took part in crimes and
14 he had the regular police uniform.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Without a mask.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 Now, Mr. O'Sullivan.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I believe the position is that we
21 would like time to review the recently disclosed materials, which I'm not
22 even sure if we have received them all yet, but we've had notice of them
23 and received parts of them. So we would ask that the witness be released
24 for now and asked to return when we've had an opportunity to prepare.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: The suggestion yesterday was 30 days.
1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well, perhaps the Prosecutor can tell us whether
2 we've received all the materials. I think there were three books.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp -- or Mr. Scully.
4 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, the witness brought three books in with
5 him, one of which related only to Dubrava prison, which we did not take.
6 He authored one book, which we have provided the Albanian version of, and
7 he authored a second loose-leaf book, and I'm not certain of the status of
8 that. I am certain that neither of those books have been translated into
9 either B/C/S or English, and I don't have a time on how long it's going to
10 take to do that.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you intending to have them translated?
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, the answer is: We don't know. I think
14 it depends on CLSS's availability.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I'm not sure about this, Mr. O'Sullivan, that
16 the case should grow arms and legs just because witnesses happen to have
17 written books and bring them along to court with them. I appreciate the
18 indication that was given yesterday, and that will be adhered to, but it
19 was perhaps precipitate without knowing anything really about the contents
20 and bearing in mind that the Prosecution are not referring to these
21 documents at all.
22 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Scully.
24 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, I've just been advised that both books
25 have been provided in Albanian; the other is on the same CD along with the
1 photographs in the Defence box.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I think the indication given was probably
3 precipitate and but for the fact that Mr. Ackerman has gone, I think -- I
4 for one would be inclined to insist on the cross-examination taking place
5 just now.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan, what access do you have to someone
8 who can alert you to the contents of Albanian documents?
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well, I don't believe anyone on any team has an
10 Albanian speaker. It would be a question of locating someone, and I
11 don't -- we haven't at this point -- I don't believe anyone has ever done
12 that. So I can't answer that question right now. But when I rose a
13 moment ago, I was speaking on my understanding of what you said
14 yesterday --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I accept that. I'm not -- but I'm reflecting
16 now that it perhaps was a precipitate statement yesterday.
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We would say, however, that what this witness
18 wrote in his books may indeed be relevant to what he has testified to, his
19 credibility, our Defence cases. I would ask for the opportunity to look
20 at that, realising that these books are in a language that none of us can
21 even look through.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: I think, though, in future it may be that when
23 something like this comes up, the cross-examination should, generally
24 speaking, proceed and -- on the understanding that it may emerge that the
25 witness has to come back, whereas -- and then at least there's a prospect
1 that we will not have wasted time and money. On this occasion, obviously,
2 we have agreed to you having the opportunity to consider these documents
3 so that you could conduct -- be sure that you're conducting a
4 cross-examination that was an integrated one.
5 However, this -- these documents don't fall into any category of
6 material that would oblige the Trial Chamber to give you time before
7 commencing cross-examination. They're not statements in the sense of
8 Rule 66, for example. And therefore, we may take a different view on a
9 future occasion.
10 Do you think there might be value in asking the witness to stay in
11 The Hague, at least until next week, to see if in fact a review of these
12 documents is possible in the course of the next week?
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I'm hearing lots of moaning and groaning, so I
14 think the answer is no.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, even if the books are to be translated,
17 next week is the week we have court from 9.00 to 6.00 every day, so ...
18 JUDGE BONOMY: I wasn't so much thinking of translation. I was
19 wondering if you would identify someone who could read them on your behalf
20 and tell you if there was any material that you ought to be paying
21 attention to.
22 The Trial Chamber doesn't take the view that just because a
23 witness has written at length that every page of that has to be translated
24 into the language of the Tribunal and the language of the accused before
25 any progress can be made.
1 Anyway -- Grant.
2 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zogaj, the two books that have been referred to
4 by Mr. Scully just now, do they deal with the events that we've been
5 discussing today?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. One of them is "Blood Traces."
7 It speaks of the events, but in a more elaborate way that -- than we spoke
8 about it here.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: And the other one?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The other book is a transcript.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Of? Transcript of what?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of the same book.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: So there's only one book then, is it?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, one book. This is a
16 Just a moment. When the prison of Dubrava was mentioned, that's
17 the second book --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, leave that aside. We are not concerned with
19 the prison at Dubrava. We are, in this trial, concerned with other
20 events. And I think I understand you are saying that the loose-leaf
21 document was a -- the original manuscript of the book that then becomes a
22 book called "Blood Traces"?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there we have. We've halved your work
25 already, gentlemen, ladies. However, we did give an indication which we
1 will adhere to, but that means that we have to determine a date at which
2 the witness returns. And probably the most convenient date would be
3 the 9th of October. Now, is that suitable or do you insist on a longer
5 Mr. Bakrac?
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether I
7 dare speak on behalf of all, but if we get a translation of this book
8 we've just established that there's just this one relevant book, we would
9 stand ready on the 9th. However, if we do not receive the translation, my
10 proposal is if it's not too far away, as far as the Trial Chamber is
11 concerned, that it be the first day after the winter recess. By then
12 we'll have the translation and everything. This is a just a proposal, but
13 if we get the translation of the book by the 9th, it's no problem, we'll
14 hear him on the 9th.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's a brave attempt on your part, but a
16 translation of a document like this is -- seems to us an extravagance in
17 the circumstances of this case. The -- this is a document that somehow or
18 other should be read for you so that you can identify particularly the
19 parts that need to be translated. Translation is a very time-consuming,
20 difficult exercise. Only a few pages a day can be done by a translator
21 who is doing something officially for court purposes. So we have to be
22 realistic with these things.
23 Mr. Sepenuk.
24 MR. SEPENUK: Yes, Your Honour, just to clarify one matter, and
25 I'm sorry I may have missed it in the colloquy that we've just gone
1 through. But as I read the supplemental statement, there was a book
2 written by Mr. Zogaj entitled "Evidence presented to the ICTY," which,
3 according to the supplemental information sheet, contains information
4 about the KLA, including their role in protecting the Albanian villages.
5 Now, I may have missed in the colloquy here, but I'm not sure that
6 that was specifically addressed to Mr. Zogaj, and my question would be:
7 Is he in possession of that material.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Zogaj, is that part of the book
9 called "Blood Traces"?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is part of the book "Blood
12 MR. SEPENUK: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the reason I'm suggesting a fairly early date
14 is that we would prefer to hear the whole of a witness's evidence without
15 too much of an interruption. However, I suspect that the 9th of October
16 would not be a date that would be easily confirmed. So I think what we
17 should do is hear from parties on the 9th of October what the state of
18 play is with this book and when would be convenient for the witness to be
19 cross-examined. But please bear in mind the need to try to hear the
20 witness as soon as possible so that we get a fair picture from both sides
21 of what's being said by the witness.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, so we'll hear what the position is on
24 the 9th, with a view to having the evidence on the 23rd of October.
25 Now, Mr. Zogaj, the problem that's arisen is that the book "Blood
1 Traces" was not known to the Defence until you came here and to enable
2 them to prepare fully for cross-examination of you, they've asked for time
3 to read it. And it's not in a language that they're familiar with, so
4 there's a problem over arranging for some form of translation. So we
5 cannot complete your evidence at this stage. We have to conclude for the
7 I'm -- yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.
8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I wonder if the witness knows whether his book
9 exists in a second language.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to this day, no.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.
12 So the problem is we'll have to end there, interrupt your
13 evidence, and you'll need to resume it but at a later date. So you'll
14 need to come back to The Hague. You'll have to go home and return here.
15 The provisional date is the 23rd of October.
16 MR. STAMP: We'll discuss it --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, sorry, it won't be the 23rd. That's a day in
18 which we will not be sitting. So it would be the 25th of October.
19 25th of October you should meanwhile keep available.
20 Now, if there is further discussion that -- to suit the parties,
21 then the Trial Chamber will be alerted, and you'll be told of any change
22 that's made in that arrangement.
23 Meanwhile, and this is very important in your case, you must not
24 discuss your evidence in the case with anyone. Now, that means the
25 evidence you've given already and the evidence you might yet give in the
1 case. Now, with most people, that's quite an easy rule to comply with,
2 but you being a journalist will naturally, no doubt, be keen to discuss
3 all sorts of events with people at every opportunity. I'm afraid that
4 between now and the completion of your evidence, you will have to avoid
5 discussing these subjects which may be part of your evidence with anyone
6 at all because you are in the middle of your evidence, you're bound by an
7 oath to tell the whole truth, and you're bound by practice of this
8 Tribunal not to have any discussion with anyone at all about what may be
9 your evidence in the case and what has been your evidence.
10 Now, do you understand all of that?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I would like to add something
12 here, that this notebook here, I have notes here which will belong to
13 another book that will be the continuation of "Blood Traces," and these
14 are all pages that have not been made public. And I would like you to
15 take this notebook, and if you could translate it.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: No thank you, Mr. Zogaj. That's not an appropriate
17 way for us to proceed. We are dealing with events which occurred seven
18 years ago, and we really have to bring some finality to the consideration
19 of these events within a reasonable time. It is not appropriate for this
20 dispute to be driven on endlessly by the provision of material at random
21 in a disorganised way. Now, that's not your fault in any respect, but you
22 must understand that these proceedings have got to be brought to a close
23 within a reasonable time. And if witnesses continue to come along with
24 pages and pages of additional material, it will never come to a
25 conclusion. If the Prosecution haven't managed to put together their case
1 by now, then heaven help us. So I'm sorry, but it's not for us to take
2 these papers from you and to explore them further.
3 So please bear in mind what I've said to you, and someone from the
4 Victims and Witnesses Section will make arranges for your return here in
5 due course. You're now free to leave the courtroom.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, do I take it, Mr. Stamp, that that concludes
9 the available evidence for this week?
10 MR. STAMP: That's correct, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: We have a list showing ten witnesses scheduled for
12 next week. It's likely that in the course of this afternoon the Trial
13 Chamber will issue a Scheduling Order to try and give guidance on how
14 these witnesses will be fitted in to the week. If there are any
15 particular problems, therefore, about the timing of any of them, you
16 should alert Mr. Dawson to that as soon as the Bench rises.
17 We'll adjourn now and resume at 9.00 on Monday.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.30 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of
20 September, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.