1 Tuesday, 26 September 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: We are going into closed session as the witness
6 enters court.
7 [Closed session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, sir.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Your evidence will continue this morning. It's
17 important that you remember that the declaration you made at the very
18 beginning of your evidence to tell the truth continues to apply to that
19 evidence -- the evidence that you give today.
20 Mr. Marcussen.
21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you.
22 WITNESS: WITNESS K83 [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Examination by Mr. Marcussen: [Continued]
25 Q. Good morning, K83. We left off yesterday talking about the Cegar
1 units and Cegar 1. I want you -- I asked you about the uniform of the
2 Cegar unit yesterday.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What -- you said the units had a camouflage uniform and then they
5 had a vest on top of that one that said "police" on the back. Do you
6 remember the colour of the uniform, the camouflage uniform?
7 A. The colour was green, military camouflage uniform.
8 Q. [Microphone not activated]
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN:
11 Q. And the vest was the same colour?
12 A. Yes, except for the white letters that said "policija," "police."
13 Q. Were the Cegar units stationed in Suva Reka or outside Suva Reka?
14 A. Part was in Suva Reka and another part was in the surrounding
16 Q. Do you know where they had their base?
17 A. I don't know exactly.
18 MR. MARCUSSEN: Forgive me one moment, Your Honour. I have to
19 stand and turn off and on the microphone. It's a little inconvenient with
20 the set-up I've made. One moment.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].
22 MR. MARCUSSEN: My apologies.
23 Q. Do you know -- the police units, would you describe them as
24 ordinary police units or special police units?
25 A. Regular police units.
1 Q. Okay. I now return to the events as they unfolded on the 26th of
2 March. You explained yesterday you returned from patrol and then you saw
3 Cegar 1 and his units in front of the police station. I'd now like to
4 show you a picture of that area and ask if you can help us explain where
5 you saw these different units.
6 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could we see P2349, please.
7 Q. K83, while we wait for the picture to come up -- oh, there it was.
8 You said there were two trucks yesterday. Did Cegar 1 come with a third
10 A. Yes, he gave came with his Land Rover.
11 MR. MARCUSSEN: If the usher would assist the witness with a pen,
13 Q. K83, I will ask if you on this picture could indicate
14 approximately where you saw the two trucks that the Cegar units had come
16 A. Here two trucks, and Cegar 1 with his vehicle was parked here.
17 Q. Would you please put the letter A where you saw -- where the
18 trucks were and the letter B where Cegar 1's car was.
19 A. I did not understand you.
20 Q. Would you put the letter B where Cegar 1's Land Rover was.
21 A. All right.
22 Q. And the police station, could you put the letter C on the police
23 station or the SUP, if you see it on this picture.
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. Thank you. And where were you when you came back from the patrol?
1 Where did you stop your car?
2 A. We were in front of the SUP building on the sidewalk.
3 Q. Then what happened? Could you explain that, please.
4 A. We were watching them getting off the truck, that is to say the
5 police, and we saw them move towards the road to Restane.
6 Q. Did Cegar 1 speak to anyone from the SUP?
7 A. Since we watched them getting out and go into the first houses
8 opposite the SUP, he walked up to the assistant commander, Nenad
10 Q. Did Cegar 1 say anything to Jovanovic?
11 A. He said that we shouldn't be watching but that we should follow
12 right behind him.
13 Q. In what voice did he say that? Was he just speaking normally?
14 Was he giving orders? Was he yelling? How would you describe the way he
15 was speaking to Jovanovic?
16 A. Well, the assistant commander saluted back properly. Cegar 1
17 didn't even want to greet him properly. He was just shouting. He said:
18 "Get going." So he was furious.
19 Q. Do you know why he was furious?
20 A. Well, I don't know. Maybe because we were watching, maybe --
21 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Can he mark the place where they were standing,
22 please, where they were available because then this will make the picture
24 MR. MARCUSSEN:
25 Q. K83, where on this picture were Cegar 1 and Jovanovic standing
1 when this took place?
2 JUDGE CHOWHAN: [Microphone not activated].
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in front of the SUP building,
4 that is to say somewhere around here.
5 MR. MARCUSSEN:
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN: The witness had made a red dot just above the red
8 car that can be seen in front of the police station.
9 JUDGE CHOWHAN: [Microphone not activated].
10 MR. MARCUSSEN:
11 Q. K83, how did Jovanovic react when he had been yelled at by Cegar
13 A. Well, Mr. Nenad Jovanovic, assistant commander, just said that we
14 should get going in a sort of lost way. We didn't know where, what for,
15 why. We didn't know what to do. But we just blindly set off towards the
16 first houses that were there, and Cegar's men were walking ahead of us and
17 we were following them.
18 Q. Were you walking or running, do you remember?
19 A. Well, I think it was sort of running -- well, fast running at
21 Q. Where did you go?
22 A. Well, we got to the house where the OSCE had been previously.
23 Q. Who were with you at that point in time?
24 A. Well, assistant commander Nenad Jovanovic; Radovan Tanovic;
25 Cukaric, Sladjan; and I.
1 Q. Did anyone tell you to take up a position somewhere?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who was that?
4 A. Since Sladjan Cukaric was head of the patrol, he ordered us to
5 stop on the left and right side of the house so that no one would shoot at
7 Q. Do you see the house on this picture?
8 A. Yes, I see it.
9 Q. Could you -- would you mark with the letter D, like delta, where
10 you took up position.
11 A. [Marks].
12 Q. Who was on the -- you said, "we took up position." Who was the
13 other person who took up position with you?
14 A. Miki Petkovic.
15 Q. And where was he positioned?
16 A. He was on the other side, on the back side of the house.
17 Q. Okay. When -- on this picture it looks like there is -- there are
18 some bushes or something next to and in front of the house close to where
19 you were standing. At the time was that there?
20 A. No, it wasn't.
21 Q. And there's also -- there's some sort of a fence in front of the
22 white vehicles that can be seen in the back of the OSCE house. At the
23 time was that there?
24 A. Yes, there was a wall there about 2 metres or even more.
25 Q. Could you make a line where the wall you're talking about was.
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. Thank you. From -- from where you were standing, did you have a
3 clear view down along the house and down to the back of the OSCE house?
4 A. Yes, you could see it.
5 Q. We can see it on the picture, but approximately how far would you
6 estimate it was from where you were standing and down to the back of the
7 OSCE house?
8 A. Well, it was about 50 metres.
9 Q. Could you describe what you -- what you saw from where you were
10 positioned when you had -- when you had been taking up positions, you were
11 watching down, what did you see?
12 A. Shooting was coming from all sides, so I was afraid and I went
13 towards the house by the road, you see, where the OSCE had been.
14 Q. You say you were afraid. What were you afraid of?
15 A. Well, because there was gun-fire coming from all sides. You
16 didn't know where they were shooting there from. There was no shelter for
17 me to hide.
18 Q. Who was shooting?
19 A. Cegar's units were shooting.
20 Q. While you were still at the position you have marked with D, did
21 anybody come out from the house where you were close to the house?
22 A. [No interpretation].
23 Q. I heard your answer but I think it didn't get translated. Could
24 you answer again, please.
25 A. From that house, women and children came out.
1 Q. How did they come out? Were they running? Were they walking?
2 What was the situation like?
3 A. They started running. They were frightened, and they started
4 fleeing towards the shopping centre.
5 Q. When they had run out of the house, did you move from your
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where did you first go?
9 A. I got to Tanovic and Cukaric because they were looking at the IDs
10 of four persons who were by the house -- or rather, behind the OSCE
12 Q. Could you indicate with the letter E like echo approximately
13 where Cegar and his -- and the other persons were, the four detained men.
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. And you were somewhere behind that, is that what you are saying,
16 but relatively close by. Is that how I understand it?
17 A. Well, I was somewhere around the middle, that would mean around
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: The witness has made a dot a little under the E
20 that he just placed on the photograph.
21 Q. Could you describe what you saw then. Did Cegar do anything to
22 the men?
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you answer that, I think we are talking
24 about someone called Tanovic and someone called Cukaric. Now, does Cegar
25 come in somewhere as well?
1 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour. No, that's my mistake.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tanovic and Cukaric first looked at
4 the IDs of these persons. They took their documents and they were facing
5 the wall, their faces were turned to the wall.
6 MR. MARCUSSEN:
7 Q. And then what happened?
8 A. Then they said to me that I should escort -- or rather, follow
9 these persons who left the house, women, children, old men, to see where
10 they were going.
11 Q. Did you see what happened to the four men that were lined up
12 against the wall?
13 A. They were killed right by the house.
14 Q. And you saw that?
15 A. Yes. They were shooting at them already as I was passing there.
16 Q. You were told that you should follow the people that had ran out.
17 And what were you to do once you had followed them, should you just follow
18 them or should you do something else?
19 A. I was just supposed to see where they were going and to inform
20 Cukaric and Tanovic as to where they went further on.
21 Q. Could I ask you to draw a line on the map from the point you made
22 below the E and then tracking the approximate route that you went.
23 A. [Marks].
24 Q. Did you pass over the bus station from there?
25 A. Yes. There was this passageway here and --
1 Q. Could you -- I know you might be making a line through the houses
2 because the passageway is too narrow to be seen on the photograph, but
3 could you make a line to the approximate place where you went on the -- on
4 the bus station.
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. And then from the place where you have made the line now, where
7 did you go?
8 Oh, sorry, excuse me, before I ask you to continue the line, did
9 you see any -- any people on the -- at the bus station?
10 A. I saw two elderly men -- or rather, a man and an elderly woman who
11 were lying on the sidewalk. They had been wounded in the legs.
12 Q. [Microphone not activated]?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. MARCUSSEN:
15 Q. Could I ask you to make the letter F at the approximate place
16 where the -- the two elderly persons were.
17 A. [Marks].
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: Before this gets too complicated, I think we
20 should maybe make this an exhibit and then continue with a clean copy.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: That will be necessary, will it? Will we run into
22 difficulty if we don't continue to see this -- presumably we're heading
23 for the cafe or the pizza, are we?
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: Let's make sure we have saved a copy of this and
25 we can continue to work on it.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC47, Your Honours.
2 MR. MARCUSSEN:
3 Q. K83, from where the F is, where did you go? What route did you
5 A. We set out to the pizzeria.
6 Q. Could you draw on this picture the route that you took to the
7 pizzeria, please?
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what you need to do is bring up IC47 and then
9 start drawing on top of it I think. We've lost what we had so far.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think we still have the old ...
11 Q. I'm sorry, K83, we're just trying to re-call the drawing you just
12 did and nothing to do with you. That's me who's giving confusing
14 Right. K83, we have the picture back again. So you've marked
15 with an F the location -- the approximate location where the two elderly
16 persons were lying on the ground, shot in the leg. You then went to the
17 place you call the pizzeria. Could you show us what route you took to get
18 to that place?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you stop at the point that you have reached now or did you
21 go -- or did you go further down in the direction of the pizzeria?
22 A. All I could see, that these civilians, the elderly people and the
23 children, were in the pizzeria, and then I returned.
24 Q. Could I ask that you put the letter G at the approximate place
25 where the pizzeria is?
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. You said you could see the civilians. Were they inside or outside
3 the pizzeria?
4 A. They were inside the pizzeria.
5 Q. Were there any other people in uniform around that area when you
6 walked down towards the pizzeria?
7 A. No, there were none.
8 Q. Is it possible for you to estimate how many people were in or
9 around the pizzeria at the time you looked down in that direction?
10 A. I don't know the exact number, but approximately 35 to 40 people.
11 Q. What did you do next?
12 A. I returned to Cukaric and Tanovic to tell them that the people
13 were in the pizzeria and that they were locked up.
14 Q. What do you mean by locked up?
15 A. Well, they had the key, so they locked themselves up.
16 Q. How do you know they had locked themselves up in the pizzeria?
17 Were you down there to -- to see it or is it something you were told?
18 A. The door was locked; it couldn't be opened.
19 Q. Did you -- did you meet Cukaric and Tanovic?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Where did you approximately see them? You don't need to mark it
22 on the map, if you can just describe where you saw them.
23 A. Well, we met on the road where the vehicles are parked in front of
24 the shopping centre.
25 Q. What -- how were you feeling at that point in time? Were you
1 still frightened?
2 A. I was very scared and under stress, since it all happened quickly,
3 including the shooting. And they told me to go to the closest restaurant
4 or bar to get a drink to try and calm down.
5 Q. Did you do that?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. And where -- where is the restaurant or kiosk or shop you went
8 into? If you make a dot first so we can see that.
9 A. [Marks].
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: The witness has made a dot just above the F that
11 he made a little earlier to indicate the place he went into to have
12 something to drink.
13 Q. And did you then pick up something to drink and came out again?
14 A. I took two bottles of liquor. There was a cognac or brandy or
15 vodka. I can't recall. When I was returning, the people who were on the
16 sidewalk who had been alive previously when I passed by, they were now
18 Q. That is the two elderly people. Is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How do you know they were dead?
21 A. As I passed by on my way to fetch a drink, they were still alive,
22 but as I was coming back, they were dead, they were killed.
23 Q. From what you could see, do you think they had died from the
24 wounds they had received earlier or do you think something happened to
25 them between the two times you saw them?
1 A. They were shot in the head.
2 Q. After you have seen that --
3 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, I think at this stage we should make what we
4 have now an exhibit and change to another view of the same scenario as we
5 proceed. So let's first make this an in-court exhibit, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC48, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
8 MR. MARCUSSEN: And then I'd like to see the second page of this
9 same exhibit we have on the screen.
10 Q. K83, while we're sorting out the technological stuff here, when
11 you had come out and you were taking the two bottles and you saw the two
12 elderly people that had been shot and were lying on the ground, did you --
13 where did you go? You can just tell me first if you can just describe
14 where you went to and we'll make a mark afterwards on the picture we have
15 on the screen now.
16 A. Well, we went to the area between the pizzeria and this building,
17 this is where we were.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Before we move on to this, Mr. Marcussen, is there
19 no help that you can obtain for us on who was responsible for the deaths
20 of the elderly couple? Is there just nothing on that?
21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Let's have a try.
22 Q. Do you know -- you saw that the two elderly people had been shot
23 in the head. Do you know who shot them?
24 A. Sladjan Cukaric.
25 Q. Did you see him do that?
1 A. I saw him, he had a rifle in his hand when I came back.
2 Q. Did you see him fire the rifle or was he just close by the bodies
3 with a rifle?
4 A. He was close to the body and he had a rifle, and I also heard a
5 shot. This was all very close by; we are talking about 5 or 6 metres.
6 Q. Did you -- at that point in time was he facing in the direction of
7 the bodies or was he walking away?
8 A. He was leaving from where the bodies were.
9 Q. Thank you. So you -- you went back to the narrow alley-way and
10 you made a dot on the map here.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you -- could you see down into the direction of the pizzeria
13 at any time?
14 A. At that moment we couldn't see because this is a narrow
15 passageway. The pizzeria is from the other side.
16 Q. At --
17 MR. MARCUSSEN: The witness has just made a line to indicate where
18 the pizzeria is around the corner.
19 Q. So where you were now at this point in time, what did you do?
20 A. First we drank up the two bottles of liquor so that I would calm
21 down, and my colleagues drank as well. We drank up quickly, and then
22 Cukaric smashed a shop window belonging to the pizzeria using his
23 rifle-butt and he threw in a hand-grenade.
24 Q. Let me just break this series of events up in some smaller pieces
25 with you. Who were you -- you was together with a number of people you
1 said and you were drinking the liquor. Who were you with?
2 A. Sladjan Cukaric, Radovan Tanovic, Miki Petkovic, and myself.
3 Q. And you all had something to drink from the bottles. Is that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And was it -- were you drinking from the two bottles you had
7 collected or had other people collected bottles as well?
8 A. No, we drank from the bottle I had brought.
9 Q. You then described that you saw Cukaric smash the window to the
10 pizzeria. When you saw that, when were you standing?
11 A. I was still here at the corner that I just marked. We were
12 standing there all the while.
13 Q. Okay. So later when we look at this picture we need to be able to
14 recognise this. Could I ask you to mark an A at the approximate location
15 of the corner where you were standing?
16 A. [Marks].
17 Q. From the corner where you were standing, could you see down in the
18 direction of the pizzeria?
19 A. At that moment I couldn't because I tried to take cover because of
20 the hand-grenade that he was about to throw.
21 Q. Did you see the window being smashed by -- did you see the window
22 break and being smashed, did you see the person making that movement?
23 A. No, not at that moment. I only heard the glass being broken, and
24 later on I heard the explosion.
25 Q. Who do you say threw in the grenade?
1 A. The hand-grenade was -- the first hand-grenade was thrown by
2 Sladjan Cukaric.
3 Q. How do you know that? Did you see it, see him throw in the
4 hand-grenade or prepare to throw in the hand-grenade?
5 A. Well, first he took out a hand-grenade and started moving towards
6 the shop window, getting ready to throw it. And he told us to take cover
7 so that we wouldn't be hurt by any of the shrapnel.
8 Q. After the hand-grenade had exploded, what happened?
9 A. We waited for two or three minutes for everything to calm down,
10 and then a second hand-grenade was thrown.
11 Q. Do you know who threw the second hand-grenade?
12 A. The second hand-grenade was thrown by Radovan Tanovic.
13 Q. And how do you know that?
14 A. Because he was getting ready for another attack.
15 Q. Between the two hand-grenades, was there any shooting coming down
16 from the direction of the pizzeria?
17 A. While we were waiting for everything to settle after the first
18 grenade, to have the smoke cleared, after that Tanovic and Cukaric took
19 turns. They used bursts of fire from their automatic rifles, shooting.
20 Q. And then the second grenade was thrown in, and was there then
21 shooting after that?
22 A. There was firing from automatic rifles. I said that. They used
23 bursts of fire, and one could still hear screams and moaning.
24 Q. Did you participate in the shooting?
25 A. No, I didn't.
1 Q. Were you asked to participate in the shooting?
2 A. I was asked if I wanted to participate, but since they realised I
3 was in no condition to do that, they didn't force me to. I was kind of
5 Q. Who -- who were "they"? You referred to somebody.
6 A. Cukaric and Tanovic?
7 Q. Did you -- you described being up in the area of the corner that
8 you have marked with an A and then there were the hand-grenade and the
9 shooting and the hand-grenade and the shooting. After that, did you --
10 did it become quiet in the pizzeria?
11 A. Yes, it did.
12 Q. And did you move from the corner where you had been standing?
13 A. I moved. I passed by the pizzeria. I went as far as the kiosk
14 here, next to the road, here.
15 Q. And did you stay there?
16 A. Yes, I stayed there throughout until the team arrived.
17 Q. Did --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Did we get a mark for where the corner of the --
19 where the kiosk was?
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: No, we only have a dot. I was going to get to --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is the dot?
22 MR. MARCUSSEN:
23 Q. Would you mark a B, please, at the place where you took up
25 A. [Marks].
1 Q. Thank you. Were you instructed to take up that position or did
2 you just go there on your own?
3 A. No. I was told to stay there and see -- or rather, to prevent
4 people coming close to the pizzeria so that they wouldn't see what was
5 happening. As for Miki Petkovic, he stayed up where we were -- where we
6 had been previously, next to the letter A.
7 Q. Who told you to take up the position at the point B you have
9 A. Sladjan Cukaric.
10 Q. I need to go back a little bit in time. Before the first grenade
11 was thrown in and you were up in the -- in the area of where you put the
12 A, were there anybody communicating on the radio at that point in time
13 among the people you were with?
14 A. I couldn't hear anything precisely. All I know is Cukaric had two
15 Motorolas. As for who he communicated with, I really couldn't hear, I
16 can't say. I don't know whether he talked to anyone or whether he
17 received any orders.
18 Q. But you did see him use his radio?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Did he use -- if you know, did he use one or both of the radios?
21 I think you said he had two.
22 A. He had two, but I don't know which one he used exactly. I can't
24 Q. Thank you. When you were -- I'm going back -- sorry, I forgot to
25 ask you this when we were at the right place in the chronology. Now I'd
1 like to take you back to the point when you were at point B. When you
2 took up position at point B, what did you see -- could you describe what
3 you were seeing when you were up there?
4 A. A truck arrived from the direction of Prizren. But before the
5 truck, Dr. Boban was already there, together with Djordjevic. I can't
6 remember his first name. So before the truck, Dr. Boban and the staff
7 commander Djordjevic had arrived.
8 Q. Do you know the family name of Dr. Boban?
9 A. Vuksanovic.
10 Q. And do you -- what -- what -- what position did he hold, do you
12 A. Well, he commanded the civil protection.
13 Q. And Djordjevic, what position did he have?
14 A. Djordjevic was commander of the TO.
15 Q. Is that the Territorial Defence?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. How -- approximately how long after you had come down to point B
18 did it take before Vuksanovic and Djordjevic came?
19 A. After 15 to 20 minutes.
20 Q. And then you explained a truck came. How long after Vuksanovic
21 and Djordjevic did it take before the truck arrived?
22 A. The truck arrived some half an hour later, from the direction of
24 Q. On this photograph, is the direction of Prizren, is that left or
1 A. To the left.
2 Q. Do you know what organisation or unit the truck belonged to?
3 A. The truck was some civilian truck. I don't know what
4 organisation. It didn't have any special markings or something like that.
5 Q. Were there any -- apart from the driver, were there anybody in the
7 A. There were three of them.
8 Q. Do you know who they were?
9 A. I don't know. That was the first time I saw these people.
10 Q. Do you know what function they -- they had when they were not --
11 before this day, do you know what these people were doing?
12 A. I didn't understand.
13 Q. Did they work for anybody, for the Territorial Defence, for the
14 civilian -- for civilian protection, something like that, do you know?
15 A. These people who came on that day, I don't know whether they
16 worked for some organisation. That was the first time I saw these people
17 in that truck, over there, in Suva Reka.
18 Q. What happened when the truck arrived? Where did it park?
19 A. It parked here, this entrance here that I marked with a B a few
20 minutes ago. So it backed off here and then it practically got to the
21 pizzeria itself.
22 Q. Then what happened?
23 A. Then a team came from the civilian protection to load the bodies.
24 Q. How do you know the team that came were from the civilian
1 A. Well, they had the clothes that civilian protection people wear.
2 Q. And when the civilian protection people came, what did they do?
3 A. Well, at first they didn't know. Dr. Boban Vuksanovic got these
4 people from their lunch. It was lunchtime, and these people previously
5 were herding cattle and they were trying to get this cattle on to a truck,
6 but these people didn't know what they were supposed to do on that day at
7 all, that day when Dr. Boban Vuksanovic called them.
8 Q. Having arrived at the pizzeria, what did they -- what did they do?
9 A. Well, they all started running away. No one wanted to do this,
10 you know, when they saw the blood -- well, first of all, these were
11 people, say, 50 years old, 60 years old, to the age of 15, actually. They
12 were children. They felt nauseous. They couldn't do that.
13 Q. Did they -- were they forced to do it nonetheless, take the bodies
15 A. Afterwards Cukaric took over the command and said: Who doesn't
16 want to load these bodies is going to end up the same way as those
17 corpses, the people who had been killed.
18 Q. And so the young and the elderly men who had come that you
19 described from the civil protection, they loaded the bodies on to the
20 truck. And could you see when they were loading the bodies?
21 A. Well, yes. Once I sort of cast a glance, sort of. It was an ugly
23 Q. When the truck was full, I take it that it left. What direction
24 did it go in?
25 A. Again, it went back to Prizren. It went in the direction of
1 Prizren. It came from Prizren and went back to Prizren.
2 Q. Did another truck come?
3 A. Yes, immediately after that one another truck came.
4 Q. And did they continue to load bodies on that truck?
5 A. Yes, they did.
6 Q. Do you know a gentleman called Jashar Berisha?
7 A. Yes. Mr. Jashar Berisha worked for many years at the gasoline
8 station in Suva Reka. I know him. I know him as a person.
9 Q. Did you see him around this time?
10 A. Well, on that day -- well, he worked at the gasoline station, but
11 when this gun-fire started he was detained up there at the SUP.
12 Q. Did you see him being detained?
13 A. I didn't see him being detained, but I know that he worked and
14 that he was there until the gun-fire started. Once the gun-fire started,
15 he was no longer there. I thought that he went home; however, he was up
16 there at the SUP, at the police station. And he was brought in from the
17 police station. He was brought in, in a vehicle, to the pizzeria.
18 Q. Can you see the petrol station on this photograph?
19 A. Yes, I can.
20 Q. Did you go over to the petrol station close to where the pumps
21 are, and I think there's an office or something behind -- previous to this
22 day, had you been over there after the shooting had started?
23 A. No, I didn't go.
24 Q. When you saw Jashar Berisha, you say he came from the direction of
25 the police station. How did he arrive?
1 A. He was brought in by the patrol to the pizzeria, that is.
2 Q. Did you know any of the officers who brought him in?
3 A. I don't know. I just remember Todor Jovanovic from then. I
4 cannot remember all those names now, of all the people who were in the
6 Q. So am I correct, you -- you infer from the fact that -- that
7 Jashar Berisha came in a car from the police station that he must have
8 been detained when -- when the shooting started, but you didn't actually
9 see him being detained. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour, we had indicated that we were going
12 to spend an hour and a half with this witness. I have already hit an hour
13 and 35 minutes. I only have another five minutes. I hope that will be
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 MR. MARCUSSEN:
17 Q. K83, after Jashar Berisha had arrived, what happened?
18 A. Jashar Berisha got out of the official vehicle and he had already
19 seen that truck, where the corpses were being loaded. And he was
20 struggling. He didn't want to go towards the truck. And he just said
21 that he didn't deserve that, to go there to the pizzeria.
22 Q. Did you -- so you were watching as he was going down in the
23 direction of the truck?
24 A. Oh, yes. I was right there by the road, by the kiosk. That's
25 where the vehicle had stopped, and he got out of that vehicle and they
1 were dragging him there to the pizzeria.
2 Q. And so you remember him saying that he didn't deserve that?
3 A. Yes. He was speaking to Dr. Boban Vuksanovic personally.
4 Q. Then what happened?
5 A. Since he was struggling to break free, in a way he was trying to
6 run away, to get out of that, but Cukaric just grabbed his arm, pushed him
7 away, and fired a burst of gun-fire from his automatic rifle into the
8 man's back.
9 Q. And you saw Cukaric shoot at Jashar Berisha?
10 A. Well, I'm not the only one who saw it. People from the
11 municipality saw it, too, who were in the municipality and people from the
12 Territorial Defence. Many people saw that scene and saw what he did on
13 that day.
14 Q. Do you know what they did to his body after he had been shot?
15 A. I think that it was also loaded on to the truck.
16 Q. When all the -- this was over and the second truck left, what
17 direction did it take off in?
18 A. Likewise, the direction of Prizren.
19 Q. After it was all over, did you go to your home?
20 A. I stayed with those people from the civilian protection because
21 Cukaric was forcing them to put sand and soil into the pizzeria so that
22 the blood stains would not remain there; however, there wasn't any sand
23 and they couldn't -- couldn't do that.
24 Q. When -- when that couldn't be cleaned up with sand and earth, did
25 Cukaric doing anything?
1 A. Cukaric went -- well, now I can't remember, was it with the
2 commanders or these other people. He left. Tanovic stayed there and just
3 set fire to this curtain that was next to the shop window. And there was
4 nothing else inside that could burn; everything was made of metal.
5 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'd like that if we could make what we have on the
6 screen now an exhibit.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC49, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 MR. MARCUSSEN: And then could we see Exhibit P117, page 2,
11 Q. K83, is this the place you referred to as the pizzeria?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. After the civil protection people had tried to clean up and
14 the curtains had been burned, did you return to your home that evening?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did -- on a later occasion, did you go -- another day did you go
17 back to the house of the Berishas, together with a team of investigators?
18 A. Well, the next day -- well, regular activities. I mean, well the
19 next day at work -- well, that's to say we started working and we had to
20 show the civil defence team where these bodies were, and those bodies were
21 supposed to be collected because it was summertime and ...
22 Q. Who directed you to go and show where the bodies were?
23 A. I cannot remember exactly now.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen, which bodies are we talking about
1 MR. MARCUSSEN:
2 Q. K83, apart from the civil defence people, were there any -- were
3 there any investigators -- was an investigation carried out before the
4 bodies were moved?
5 A. Yes. There were people who were crime scene technicians taking
6 pictures of that, photographing that. Do you understand what I'm saying?
7 They were loaded on to a truck and they were buried under some kind of
9 Q. Do you remember the name of any of the crime scene technicians and
10 where they came from?
11 A. Well, I remember because Todor Jovanovic worked there in Suva Reka
12 and some came from Prizren. I remember some Mojsic, but I don't know his
13 first name exactly and this other colleague of his. I don't know, I don't
14 know his name.
15 Q. Where did you -- what location did you first go to when the bodies
16 were to be collected?
17 A. Well, first we went to the house where the Berishas were --
18 rather, we called it the OSCE house. First them, there were four men
19 there. The next day there was the corpse of a woman there, too, a woman
20 of 50 or 60.
21 Q. Did you -- did you see the bodies?
22 A. Yes, I saw the bodies. The woman, her leg and part of her arm had
23 been burned. I don't know how. I didn't see the woman that day, but I
24 don't know how she came to be there on the following day.
25 Q. After -- after you had been at the OSCE house, did you continue to
1 other locations in Suva Reka with the same team?
2 A. Well, yes. We went on to -- well, to the SUP and then towards
3 Restane to see whether there were some other corpses left in some houses.
4 We found other corpses along the way in other houses. For the most part
5 they were men.
6 Q. If you know, do you know how they died? I mean, have they been
7 killed by gun-fire? How did they die, do you know?
8 A. Well, they had been killed. Now, how, I didn't see.
9 Q. You said you went up along the Restane road. Is that -- you
10 basically followed the same road that the Cegar units had been taking. Is
11 that what you're saying?
12 A. Yes, yes. Because they had passed there and we wanted to check
13 whether there were any corpses left there, because it was summertime and
14 we didn't want a disease to spread or something like that.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, I may have missed that. Was there evidence
16 that they went along the Restane road?
17 MR. MARCUSSEN: I believe that yesterday the witness testified
18 that they were following up that way, but otherwise we can just clarify
20 Q. K83, if you could think back at the day when you were at the
21 Berisha house, again when you had been at the house of the Berishas or the
22 OSCE house, there were the Cegar units and there were people from the SUP.
23 The operation that the Cegar unit was involved in, in what direction did
24 that operation go?
25 A. Well, as for the surrounding houses, that is to say these houses
1 along the Restane road, I mean well they took that road.
2 Q. Did you -- did you see them move out in that direction; is that
3 what you're saying?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: We're talking about the same day, are we? Because
6 we had evidence yesterday about battles going on, on the road to Restane,
7 about 3 to 5 kilometres from Suva Reka and so forth, terrorist attacks; we
8 had that sort of evidence. But did we have evidence that this unit had
9 gone along that road?
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: You're -- I could be mistaken. As I refresh my
11 memory the evidence we got yesterday --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Every killing that we have so far heard of from
13 this witness, as far as I have recorded it - and of course that may be
14 incomplete - every one seems to be said the responsibility of Cukaric and
15 the other colleagues or colleague mainly who was with him. I don't know
16 that I have -- I have a record of the Cegar group shooting at random at
17 the outset of this incident, but no indication from this witness of any
18 deaths resulting from that.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think that's going -- the witness's evidence is
20 that the Cegar units when the up along the Restane road. The witness
21 don't know, as I am aware at least, that the Cegar units killed anyone.
22 The witness's evidence also is that the following day they, people from
23 the SUP and crime scene investigators, went up the Restane road and they
24 found more bodies. We would make submissions on that later, but I think
25 that is what the evidence is so far. I can try to clarify this with the
1 witness if it would assist, but we are not trying to state the evidence
2 any higher than what I've just said.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm simply saying to you that I don't have a
4 note of the evidence that you seem to be relying on that -- to the effect
5 that they went along that road. And it may be I haven't noted it, but I
6 don't recollect it either.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN:
8 Q. K83, on the day that the incident took place at the OSCE house, to
9 your knowledge did the Cegar unit continue up along the road towards
11 A. Yes. They continued up along the rode road towards Restane.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: And, Your Honours, that concludes our questions at
14 this stage. Thank you.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We'll have a break now.
16 You should stay where you are while the court rises, and then
17 someone will make arrangements to show you where to wait during our break.
18 We'll break now for 30 minutes and resume at 11.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Private session again while the witness enters
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan, meanwhile you could perhaps tell me
24 the running order.
25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, Your Honour. General Pavkovic, General
1 Lukic, General Ojdanic, Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Milutinovic, and General
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
4 [Closed session]
8 [Open session].
9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: K83, you will now be examined by various counsel
11 for the accused, and the first of these will be for Mr. Pavkovic, and that
12 will be Mr. Ackerman.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:
15 Q. Sir, I have just a couple of questions. It will be very brief.
16 During these events you have just described that took place in Suva Reka,
17 it's the case, isn't it, that there was no army presence in Suva Reka at
18 that time?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. With regard to these two people you talked about who arrived on
21 the scene after these killings, Djordjevic and Dr. Boban Vuksanovic, do
22 you know what happened to them after that day?
23 A. I don't.
24 Q. You don't know that they were both killed?
25 A. Yes, I do know that.
1 Q. I have some indication that they were killed by the KLA. Can you
2 confirm that or not?
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all I have, Your Honour. Thank you.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 Mr. Ivetic.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
9 Q. Good day, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I represent Mr. Sreten
10 Lukic, along with my colleagues, Branko Lukic and Ozren Ogrizovic relative
11 to these proceedings. Today I'm going to have to ask you some questions
12 relative to your testimony that you've just given to try and clarify and
13 better understand things. I would ask you to pay close attention to what
14 I am asking and try to give me the most accurate and concise answer
15 possible since our time here is limited and we have a number of things to
16 deal with. And due to the protective measures given to you I must call
17 you K83, so please remember if I do use that terminology I am referring to
18 you and I will proceed.
19 Now, first of all I would like to ask you a few questions to clear
20 up the structure and operation of the police station, that is to say the
21 OUP in Suva Reka, O-U-P. Now, first of all isn't it correct that the
22 public security division, the RJB, and the state security division, the
23 RDB, were separate structures with a separate hierarchy, separate computer
24 databases, and separate information channels within the OUP in Suva Reka?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. And as far as the state security or RDB presence in Suva Reka, is
2 it accurate to state that it was small and consisted of approximately two
3 persons or so during the time period of 1998 and 1999?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. And how big was the rest of the OUP in Suva Reka, that is to say
6 in terms of the regular and reserve policemen? How many of their -- them
7 were you assigned to the OUP?
8 A. I don't know the exact number.
9 Q. Okay. Is it accurate to state that a clear majority of the
10 persons in the -- operating in the OUP of Suva Reka were locals from the
11 Suva Reka municipality itself?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. Okay. And is it correct to state that the OUP of Suva Reka
14 actually fell under the jurisdiction of the SUP, S-U-P, or [B/C/S spoken]
15 of Prizren?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Okay. And is it also accurate to state that in the course of
18 regular duties the OUP of Suva Reka would have to report to the SUP in
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Okay. And as far as you know, the OUP of Suva Reka would only
22 report to the SUP in Prizren and not to any other structures within the
23 MUP. Is that accurate?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. And you mentioned some crime scene investigators, an investigative
1 team that came out to Suva Reka and to the Berisha house with you the day
2 after the killings that you testified to. Was this investigative team
3 from the Prizren SUP?
4 A. Yes, it was.
5 Q. Okay. And if we can concentrate on the time-period that these --
6 that this investigative team was there, is it accurate to state that you
7 did not take this investigative team to the pizzeria location?
8 A. I didn't understand.
9 Q. The investigative team that came the day after the killings, it
10 was not taken to the pizzeria location, was it?
11 A. That is so.
12 Q. Okay. And on the occasion when this investigative team was at the
13 Berisha house where there was now the body also of a female, is it
14 accurate that upon that day the investigative team was shot upon by
16 A. Not in the Berisha house. It was a bit further down towards
17 Restane where the bodies were buried at the cemetery.
18 Q. And am I correct that someone shot upon -- shot at the
19 investigative team --
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. And the investigative team, was it -- it was accompanied by
22 regularly marked MUP vehicles. Is that accurate?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. And you and the other MUP officials were wearing uniforms at the
25 time that were MUP uniforms. Is that accurate?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. So that whoever shot at you was targeting persons that were
3 clearly identified as being the police. Is that accurate?
4 A. It is accurate.
5 Q. And you just mentioned the cemetery. Is it also accurate that
6 after the investigation the bodies that were found were buried in
7 single -- in individual graves, each grave marked?
8 A. Yes. Each body was marked with a code and they were buried
10 Q. And based upon your experience in the police force, was this
11 standard operating procedure for crime scene investigation and for burial
12 of bodies that were discovered?
13 A. Yes, it was.
14 Q. And had that been the standard operating procedure, even in the
15 years long before 1999?
16 A. Yes, it had.
17 Q. Okay. Now, the -- sometime in 2003, you were called in by the
18 police authorities to be interviewed relative to an investigation relating
19 to the events in Suva Reka. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And at that point in time, you gave your first statement to the
22 police authorities of the Republic of Serbia, detailing your account of
23 what had happened and who was responsible for it. Is that accurate?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. And that was part of an ongoing investigation at that point in
1 time. Subsequently, the judicial authorities undertook a judicial
2 prosecution of your colleagues who were involved in the event at Suva Reka
3 on March the 25th, 1999. Is that accurate?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to return back to finish up a few more
6 specific questions about the operation of the Suva Reka police station or
7 the OUP. First of all, we -- we would like to ask you about a man by the
8 name of Miskovic, who also was known as Nisevic with the first name Misko.
9 Now, was he -- strike that.
10 He was not the overall commander or head of all the MUP police in
11 Suva Reka, was he?
12 A. No, he wasn't the overall commander. He was not a commander.
13 Q. Thank you for clearing that up for me. In fact, this Miskovic or
14 Nisevic, in fact he was merely one of the two or three DB policemen, that
15 is to say the state security personnel in Suva Reka. Is that accurate?
16 A. It is, yes.
17 Q. And in fact, do you even know if this Miskovic or Nisevic, however
18 you want to refer to him, whether he held any rank in the structure?
19 A. No. He always wore civilian clothes, hence I don't know.
20 Q. Okay. And now this individual, this Miskovic or Nisevic, he was a
21 local from the town of Suva Reka. Isn't that accurate?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. And I believe you testified that he owned a hotel called the Hotel
24 Boss. Was this hotel located in Shiroko?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. And do you have any knowledge of an attack that occurred on
2 September the 12th, 1998, in this village of Shiroko during which
3 terrorists attacked the Hotel Boss that was owned by Mr. Miskovic or
4 Mr. Nisevic?
5 A. I don't know. I didn't see to what extent it was damaged, but I
6 did hear that a projectile was launched at the hotel.
7 Q. Okay. And -- and do you recall another event that occurred in
8 1998 in front of a trafika or a little shop in which someone shot at
9 Miskovic, Nisevic, and in fact, I think, wounded him and killed one other
10 person. Do you recall that event?
11 A. Yes, that is so. Misko stopped by the kiosk that day to by a
12 newspaper. From some 20 metres away, fire was opened with the intent of
13 killing him, but instead they killed the Albanian who was selling the
14 newspapers, whereas Misko was only wounded in his hand. It was not a
15 serious injury.
16 Q. Okay. And I believe you had -- had mentioned that this gentleman
17 usually wore civilian clothes. Do you know whether in fact he was wearing
18 civilian clothes on the day that this attack occurred?
19 A. Yes, I think so. He always wore civilian clothes. Neither before
20 the war or during the war, he did not have a uniform.
21 Q. And was this gentleman Nisevic, Miskovic, was he well-known in the
22 Suva Reka town by the general populace?
23 A. Everyone knew him, the Serbs, the Albanians, because he had a
24 driving school there and also the check-up of vehicles, that was his
25 business. He also had a hotel and a number of shops and so on and so
2 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, we may return to some more questions about
3 this individual later. I'd like to focus now on some background
4 information relative to your experiences. Is it correct that you became a
5 police reservist in approximately 1994?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. And from 1994 to 1997, apart from your training as a reserve
8 police officer, did you have occasion to perform police duties in Suva
9 Reka municipality?
10 A. Yes, but that was seldom.
11 Q. Okay. And on the occasions - again, focussing on the years 1994
12 through 1997 - that you did perform police duties, is it a fact that you
13 would have a daily report with a Lieutenant Repanovic, who would give a
14 briefing to you and to the other police officers going on patrol?
15 A. Not me personally, since I was a reservist policeman, but heads of
16 patrols and professional policemen had to compile reports, also fill out
17 patrol forms. They had to type them out, and they needed to type out
18 reports as well.
19 Q. Okay.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that question may have been misunderstood
21 because of the use of the words "daily report."
22 MR. IVETIC: I think so as well, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you meant a briefing.
24 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
25 Q. Did you ever participate in any briefing before going out on
1 patrol, and again during the years 1994 through 1997 first of all?
2 A. I don't understand. What do you mean by briefings?
3 Q. Prior to going out on a patrol, would someone from the police
4 station give you your daily assignments?
5 A. Yes, it was done by the leader of the shift.
6 Q. Okay. And during 1998 and 1999, did this same procedure remain in
7 place, this giving of daily assignments?
8 A. Yes, it did.
9 Q. And now, on the critical date in question, March 25th, 1999, when
10 you and your colleagues went to the Berisha house and the pizzeria, that
11 day you had not been given a daily assignment at the SUP to -- to
12 undertake what happened that day, did you?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Okay. Now, let's -- let's go back to the time period before 1998
15 very briefly. You had mentioned some check-points that were in existence
16 in -- along the road outside Suva Reka. Is it true that these
17 check-points existed even in the year 1998?
18 A. Yes, they did exist.
19 Q. And was the primary purpose of these check-points to control
20 traffic and dissuade the armed terrorist elements from disrupting traffic
21 on the roadway?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. Now, prior to the year 1998, how was the situation in the Suva
24 Reka municipality? And that is to say was there a problem caused by the
25 presence of armed Albanian fighters, whether they went by any name or not?
1 A. Well, they -- at that time the OSCE was there and they monitored
2 all police movement. There was always a vehicle in front and another one
3 at the back, but when the attack took place both vehicles would drive off
4 and we would remain behind at their mercy. And once the firing stopped,
5 then they would come back and they would try and establish who opened
6 fire, who was wounded, and to see what took place.
7 Q. All right. I'm going to have to try and clarify that with you. I
8 had asked you about the time-period prior to 1998, but let's talk about
9 what you describe. You described the OSCE. The OSCE was there at the end
10 of 1998 and for the first few months of 1999. Is that accurate?
11 A. I believe so.
12 Q. And in -- in the answer you gave to the prior question you
13 said: "There was always a vehicle in front and another one at the back."
14 Is it accurate to state that those vehicles in the front and in the back
15 would be the OSCE vehicles?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then I take it the vehicles in the middle would be the regular
18 MUP patrol vehicles. Is that accurate?
19 A. Yes, it is accurate.
20 Q. And when you say that the vehicles would drive off and we would
21 remain behind at their mercy, who is the "they" at whose mercy the police
22 would be left at?
23 A. Well, the terrorists.
24 Q. Okay. And now -- now that we've cleared that up, I'd like to now
25 move to the original issue that I'd wanted to ask you about. Is it
1 correct that in 1998 things started changing for the worse in Suva Reka
2 town and municipality, and that is to say that from 1998 onwards the
3 terrorists began operating in Suva Reka municipality. Is that accurate?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. And in particular, among the things that started getting worse in
6 1998, is it accurate that persons started being kidnapped by these
7 terrorists from public buses in Suva Reka municipality?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. And is it accurate to state that from 1998 onwards, you were
10 essentially a full-time police officer within the OUP of Suva Reka?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. And now during that time-period, that is to say 1998 onwards, did
13 you have any knowledge or information that the persons being kidnapped by
14 these terrorists were in fact both ethnic Albanians and ethnic Serbs?
15 A. At first there were Albanians who were loyal citizens. They were
16 not kidnapped only but also killed, and the next day a corpse was found by
17 the road. As for the Serbs that had been kidnapped, they went missing and
18 none of them was ever found.
19 Q. Do you know approximately how many such incidents of either
20 kidnappings or killings of Suva Reka citizens by the terrorists occurred
21 in either 1998 or 1999?
22 A. Well, in Suva Reka there were four cases.
23 Q. And when you say "in Suva Reka," that would be in the town itself.
24 Is that accurate?
25 A. No, not the town itself, the surrounding area, 3 kilometres.
1 Q. Okay. And were there also -- you mentioned at least one instance
2 of an attack upon a police vehicle. Were there also multiple instances of
3 attacks by these terrorists in the Suva Reka region upon regular police
4 patrols or police buildings or police personnel?
5 A. Well, yes. Practical every time there was any kind of movement,
6 any kind of departure from the SUP building, they regularly monitored
7 this. And whenever the patrol would leave the SUP, it would be attacked.
8 For the most part, people would get wounded, but there were even
10 Q. And these fatalities and woundings, were these what you had
11 referenced earlier as to reasons why the police force did not have
12 sufficient personnel as of 1998? Was that one of the reasons people were
13 even leaving or the police force did not have enough personnel?
14 A. Yes, they were afraid. They didn't want to get killed, and they
15 would leave the service and go to their homes in Serbia.
16 Q. Okay. Now, do you know of an instance -- strike that.
17 Do you know of a killing of an Albanian policeman from the Suva
18 Reka state security organ at the hands of the KLA?
19 A. Yes, yes. It was Iljaz, I don't know his last name, Iljaz, Iljaz,
20 he worked in the DB. He was killed in his very own home.
21 Q. Okay. Now, did you know at the time where the KLA terrorists were
22 situated, that is to say from what areas or villages they were based in
23 the Suva Reka municipality?
24 A. Well, for the most part towards Budakovo, Gornji Kruscica,
25 Malisevo. I don't know. There's quite a few of these places of theirs.
1 Q. And when you say there's quite a few of these places of theirs,
2 would it be accurate to state that the terrorists held these regions so
3 that regular police patrols dared not even enter that territory?
4 A. Well, in the municipality of Suva Reka there was 5 per cent of
5 Serbs, that is to say that 95 per cent were Albanians. So Serbs could not
6 cover all these territories. They didn't have enough personnel for all of
7 that, to keep it blocked.
8 Q. Okay. And was there even some reported terrorist activity within
9 the town of Suva Reka itself?
10 A. I didn't understand. Could you repeat the question, if you can?
11 Q. Sure. Let me perhaps rephrase it. Were there even areas of Suva
12 Reka town itself that were not safe for police patrols to go through
13 because of the threat posed by terrorists in the area?
14 A. Well, there was danger. There were cases when a Serb would get
15 killed, a Serb who worked in a shop, in broad daylight at 10.00, at the
16 work-place, in the centre of town.
17 Q. All right. Now, let me ask you if you recall an instance with
18 a -- with a number of such fatalities that occurred on or about January
19 8th, 1999, when there was an attack by the terrorists from the direction
20 of Dulje upon a patrol on the road that left three policemen dead, four
21 policemen wounded, and three Albanian civilians also wounded because they
22 happened to be driving near the patrol. Do you recall that?
23 A. Yes, I remember that.
24 Q. And now, were the killed and wounded policemen from this and other
25 instance -- let's talk about this instance in particular, were these
1 killed and wounded locals from Suva Reka?
2 A. Well, no. They came here for periods of three years to work
3 there, and then they just stayed there.
4 Q. Okay. And with respect to this and other incidents where the
5 terrorists attacked or killed or wounded policemen or other individuals,
6 how would the local Serb population react after these incidents?
7 A. Well, they were scared, what else?
8 Q. Do you recall an incident involving an OSCE vehicle and some Serb
10 A. Yes, I remember. On that day, that vehicle hit an elderly woman,
11 and the vehicle didn't want to stop.
12 Q. And was there a local reaction or back-lash against the OSCE and
13 those local persons working with the OSCE as a result of this incident?
14 A. Well, they expected the OSCE to calm things down, but the OSCE
15 was - how should I put this? - more and more on the side of the
16 terrorists. They were helping them more than they were calming the
17 situation down.
18 Q. And is that how the rest of the local Serb population viewed the
19 presence of the OSCE when they were in Suva Reka?
20 A. I didn't really understand that.
21 Q. What you just described, were those personal feelings or were they
22 the sentiment of the local Serb civilians, as you viewed them or as you
24 A. Well, there were some individuals and -- I mean, well civilians.
25 Q. Okay. Now, when the OSCE first came to Suva Reka, is it correct
1 that they stayed at the hotel owned and operated by this Misko Miskovic or
2 Nisevic, the Hotel Boss?
3 A. Yes, yes, that's true.
4 Q. And is it correct that apart from the OSCE presence, this Hotel
5 Boss didn't have any other paying customers at that time?
6 A. No, there wasn't anyone except for the OSCE.
7 Q. Okay. And these OSCE vehicles, during the time that they were
8 residing at the Nisevic hotel, did they in fact also obtain their fuel for
9 their vehicles from another business enterprise owned by this Nisevic?
10 A. Nisevic didn't have a gasoline station. I don't know where they
11 got their fuel.
12 Q. Okay. Now, at some point in time the OSCE moved out of this hotel
13 and moved into the Berisha family compound, and their entire operation
14 moved with them. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, correct.
16 Q. And do you know whether the Berisha family had a petrol station or
17 a fuel depot?
18 A. Well, it was only Jashar Berisha who worked at this gasoline
19 station. It's only possible that they -- that he could have helped them
20 in some way. I really don't know except for this Berisha who worked at
21 the gasoline station.
22 Q. Okay. Now -- now, after the OSCE mission left the Suva Reka area
23 and when the NATO planes began their attack on Kosovo-Metohija and the
24 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, how did the local Serb community react to
25 the NATO attacks?
1 A. Well, they were scared.
2 Q. And what kind of atmosphere or interaction existed between the
3 local Serbs and the local Albanians during this time-period after NATO
5 A. I didn't understand you. After what attack?
6 Q. After the NATO -- after NATO started bombing the country.
7 A. Well, Serbs stayed where they were, but Albanians started fleeing,
8 like going away.
9 Q. Okay. Now, were there -- were there outages of the power, water,
10 and other utilities during the period of the NATO bombardment?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Are we talking here about Suva Reka or are these
13 general statements that could be anywhere in the Republic of Serbia?
14 MR. IVETIC: My question was meant to be related to Suva Reka. I
15 see that I did not limit it to that, so --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: The -- have you in fact established yet that NATO
17 bombed anywhere near Suva Reka?
18 MR. IVETIC: I have not, and I don't know whether the outages are
19 related to the NATO bombing.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: See, these general answers to these very general
21 questions we do not find of any assistance to us.
22 MR. IVETIC: Well, then I will move along to specific matters in
23 the area of Suva Reka.
24 Q. Now, sir, did you hear about the bombing and destruction of the
25 police building in Prizren around the 25th of March, 1999, by NATO
2 A. I didn't see that but I heard it.
3 Q. And did you hear about casualties from this NATO attack,
4 particularly the deaths of two policemen including one local reservist and
5 one member of the PAP -- PJP stationed in the municipality?
6 A. No, no, I didn't know these people. I heard they got killed,
7 but ...
8 Q. And do you know or have knowledge of a factory in Suva Reka
9 itself --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move on to that. Can you help us with
11 the date? Around the 25th of March is imprecise, but can you be any more
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really do not remember the date.
14 I've already said that.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Was it -- do you know if it was before or after the
16 Berisha killing?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think after.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC:
21 Q. Thank you, sir. With respect -- I had asked you also about
22 whether you had any knowledge of a factory in Suva Reka itself that had
23 been bombarded by the NATO aircraft?
24 A. I worked in this factory. I don't know whether it was bombed,
25 this factory.
1 Q. Okay. Well, after the destruction of the Prizren police building,
2 is it accurate that the communications within the police force were
3 severely disrupted, including the computer database links between various
4 police structures?
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.
6 MR. MARCUSSEN: I don't believe the witness was in Prizren, so if
7 the -- it's a question about the SUP and the functioning of the SUP in
8 Prizren, I would object to that question.
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the -- we've already heard that the OUP in
11 Suva Reka was answerable to the SUP in Prizren, and therefore
12 communications between the two the witness may know about. So I think the
13 evidence is within the -- the question is within the compass of his
15 MR. IVETIC: If he knows, of course; he may not know.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, yes. There was a
17 break-down in communications because of electricity for a while. It
18 wasn't that it was -- well, say four or five days.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. All right. And now during the period of March through May 1999,
21 are you aware or do you have knowledge of local civilians, including both
22 Serbs and non-Serbs, that were arrested by the Serbian police in Suva Reka
23 for looting private homes in Suva Reka?
24 A. I didn't understand this. Could you repeat it once again.
25 Q. Sure. Do you know of local civilians from Suva Reka who were
1 arrested for looting homes in Suva Reka, that is stealing from homes
2 that -- and causing damage, during the time-period of March 1999 through
3 May 1999?
4 A. Yes, that's correct. They were detained and arrested during the
5 bombing, too. They were in prison during the bombing in Prizren.
6 Q. And these persons that were arrested in Suva Reka and imprisoned
7 in Prizren, were -- did they include both ethnic Serbs and persons of
8 other nationalities, including ethnic Albanians?
9 A. Well, for the most part they were Serbs.
10 Q. Okay. Now --
11 MR. IVETIC: One moment, please.
12 Q. Now, we could ask about one more incident that occurred during the
13 month of March. Do you recall any incident at the Balkan Bet shop in the
14 commercial area of Suva Reka on or about the 22nd of March, where a
15 civilian, Bogdan Lazic, was killed or -- attacked and killed by
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And was this Lazic a local of Suva Reka?
19 A. He was from the village of Sopina, that is to say 3 kilometres
20 away from Suva Reka. That's where he lived.
21 Q. And did he have any -- strike that.
22 Did he come from a -- from a large family?
23 A. I didn't understand that.
24 Q. No, it's -- I'll just move on. It's not that relevant.
25 Now, if we could move to the date when you stated that the Berisha
1 killings occurred, and if I could direct your attention first of all to
2 the period in time when the lorries were being -- when the -- when the
3 Cegar units were disembarking from their lorries. First of all, you
4 stated that you had ran in that direction. How did the Cegar unit -- how
5 did they travel in the direction that they were travelling? Were they in
6 or on foot?
7 A. They were on foot, and they were spread out. That is to say that
8 there was a distance of 5 to 6 metres between them, respectively, as they
9 moved towards the houses.
10 Q. And on that day, did you have knowledge of any combat operations
11 taking place towards or around the Restane area, between the terrorists
12 and the Serbian forces?
13 A. Well, this happened every day, but I mean I -- well, as for Suva
14 Reka and in the perimeter of, say, 2 or 3 kilometres I always moved about
15 there, but I could not see everything that was going on in the field.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. IVETIC: At this time I would ask the usher to put up IC47, I
18 believe it is, and I'll have a question or two relating to this exhibit.
19 Q. Sir, if I could direct your attention to the screen in front of
20 you. This is the exhibit -- one of the exhibits you marked earlier today,
21 and I want to ask you about the house you were located at this position D.
22 Am I correct that only you and your three colleagues were in the area of
23 this house near D at that time?
24 A. Not three, four.
25 Q. Four including yourself, that's what I meant.
1 Now, am I also accurate --
2 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 Am I also accurate that the units you described as the Cegar
5 units, that they were not -- they were not near this house. Is that
6 correct? You were there alone.
7 A. They were not in those two houses where we were. They were in
8 these other houses by this house D and E, and to the left and to the
9 right, that is to say they were ...
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you completed that answer?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that we were in houses D and
12 E, and the Cegars were in the other houses around these houses.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC:
16 Q. Would it be possible for you to indicate on this photograph the
17 direction in which the Cegar unit was heading.
18 MR. IVETIC: And perhaps -- is it possible to do a different
19 colour so it can be distinguished from these markings.
20 Q. If you could show us the general direction in which the Cegar unit
22 A. Well, what can I do? I don't know. They started here, then here,
23 and along this way and in this direction. This was their movement.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you.
25 MR. IVETIC: Can we have that saved as the next available number?
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC50, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. Okay. Now, I believe you stated in your direct examination that
5 you were -- that you were all going along lost. You really didn't know
6 where you were going or what you were doing. Is that accurate?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. And is it your impression that the other individuals with you were
9 in the same state of mind?
10 A. Well, I don't know as for others, but when the assistant commander
11 set out, he reached a particular house and then he ran away. He left us
12 there by ourselves. So what can I add to that? If he ran away and he was
13 the person to issue commands, he fled and I stayed behind.
14 Q. Did he flee before Cukaric and Tanovic began shooting the four men
15 behind the house?
16 A. He fled as soon as we arrived at that house when he heard firing
17 from all directions; that's when he fled.
18 Q. Okay. And so I can -- am I correct then that this was before
19 Tanovic and Cukaric shot and killed the four individuals?
20 A. Yes, you're right.
21 Q. And -- now, prior to this incident your patrol had not personally
22 taken part in any actions or activities with this Cegar unit, did you?
23 A. No, it didn't take part.
24 Q. And -- and would it be accurate to state that you did not hear or
25 have knowledge of any command or order given to your patrol to kill anyone
1 on that day?
2 A. Well, gentlemen, I can tell you what happened. We were in front
3 of the building and we were observing what they were doing, but once Cegar
4 1 arrived he addressed the assistant commander and he just said: Get
5 going. It wasn't our task and our job to do that with him. Had it not
6 been for him, I don't think anything in the pizzeria would have happened
7 or anything of that nature.
8 Q. But this gentleman, this Cegar 1, at no point in time did he tell
9 the -- you or the other individuals that were with you in front of the
10 SUP, at no time did he tell you: Go out and kill people, did he?
11 A. He didn't. He didn't say anything. He only told the assistant
12 commander: Get going with your men.
13 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to the men that were with you, the other
14 fellows in your patrol, were they all locals from Suva Reka?
15 A. Only one person was from Suva Reka. The others were from
16 elsewhere, say Uzice and so on and so forth.
17 Q. Had all of them been serving in the Suva Reka SUP for some time
18 prior to this incident -- pardon me, I meant OUP?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Okay. Now -- and another area I'd like to clear up from your
21 examination testimony, you stated when at the pizzeria Jashari Berisha was
22 brought. And I think you clarified that you do not have actual knowledge
23 of whether he was at the OUP building or not. Is that accurate?
24 A. Well, I saw him being brought from that direction, from the SUP
25 building. I could see the road they took; that's where I was standing.
1 It's a proper road and you can see far ahead, and this was less than 200
2 metres away. He was brought there from that building. I'm pretty sure
3 about that.
4 Q. Is the petrol station where Mr. Berisha worked also in that
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Okay. And now you indicated that you and your fellow colleagues
8 that day drank some alcohol, two bottles to be precise. Was -- am I
9 correct that all that alcohol was consumed prior to any shooting into the
10 pizzeria or any grenades, rucne bombe, being thrown into the pizzeria?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you have an approximate time that it took for the four of you
13 to consume two bottles of alcohol?
14 A. Well, we drank it up like water so that we could relax.
15 Q. Do you --
16 MR. IVETIC: One moment.
17 Q. Do you recall the -- do you recall the volume of the bottles,
18 that is to say whether these were 1 litre bottles of liquor?
19 A. These were 1 litre bottles, yes.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Let me just see. I might have a couple more
22 questions. Allow me a moment to review my notes.
23 Your Honours, I think I'm completed with this witness?
24 Q. Thank you, sir.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just before you sit down, is there any help
1 you can give us with the command structure within that police office?
2 There was a measure of confusion yesterday about the positions held by
3 certain people. Repanovic was said to be the head of the uniformed branch
4 at Vitosevic was said to be the head of the criminal investigation branch.
5 And it was vague who was in charge of the whole office. Can you assist on
6 that and clarify on any of these?
7 MR. IVETIC: I can. I don't know whether I should be testifying.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Excuse me?
9 MR. IVETIC: I can. I don't know whether I should be testifying.
10 I can ask the witness, perhaps.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: If you can through the facility you have for
12 leading questions, clarify what the witness told us yesterday.
13 MR. IVETIC: Yes. I will try to, Your Honour, and I hope my
14 colleagues -- I hope I'm not using up too much of their time, but I will
15 endeavour to do so.
16 Q. Mr. K83, with respect to the OUP of Suva Reka, is it correct that
17 the overall commander of this police station was Vitosevic?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. And do you recall what rank Vitosevic held?
20 A. I don't -- I don't know.
21 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned Repanovic. Is it correct that Repanovic
22 was merely a lieutenant within the structure of the OUP of Suva Reka?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. Okay. And was Vitosevic's rank higher than Repanovic's?
25 A. I can't say, but he was -- he must have been of higher rank, him
1 being the head of the SUP.
2 Q. Okay. And now the other individual you named Nenad Jovanovic, am
3 I correct that his post of -- I don't -- I think he was an assistant or --
4 rather than a deputy commander. Am I correct that that was the lowest
5 police superior officer position within the structure of the Suva Reka OUP
6 at the time, that is to say the lowest staresina [phoen] position within
7 the OUP?
8 A. Yes, that is so.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that clarifies the position, Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: Okay. I would just have one -- one or two more just
11 to clarify --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. On you go.
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. And in fact in -- strike that.
15 Am I correct that superior to Jovanovic in the hierarchy of the
16 Suva Reka OUP, there was in addition to Repanovic another individual named
17 Borisavljevic and that all these -- these two persons had positions
18 superior to Jovanovic but inferior to Vitosevic, who was the chief of the
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Okay. And the -- am I correct that the RDB that Mr. Nisevic was a
22 part of, that was not formally a part of the OUP; they were a separate
24 A. Yes. His office was in the SUP building, but the DB offices were
25 not within the same chain. They had nothing to do with the SUP itself.
1 Q. And am I accurate then that Vitosevic, as the head of the OUP, had
2 no command authority over the DB and the DB officers?
3 A. No, Vitosevic had no authority over the DB. He couldn't issue
4 commands, he couldn't order the DB to do anything.
5 MR. IVETIC: All right. Your Honour, I think I clarified what
6 Your Honours and I both wanted, so I'm finished.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
8 K83, the name Jovanovic -- is it Jovanovic or Jevanovic?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jovanovic.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. And of the two persons Repanovic and
11 Borisavljevic, which of them held the higher position?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Repanovic did.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Now, Mr. Marcussen, can I ask you about the issue of action taken
15 by Serb authorities in relation to the events affecting the Berisha
16 family. Are you aware of the trial of Cukaric and Tanovic?
17 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes, I am, Your Honour. I was intending to put
18 some questions in re-direct about this --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Why was that sort of evidence not led in direct
20 examination, to give us the picture -- the complete picture that some
21 action was being taken about this?
22 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, primarily because this witness has only been
23 a witness in that case and therefore cannot really speak to the -- to the
24 details of that case.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Right.
1 MR. MARCUSSEN: So --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: So will we be getting other information about this
3 so that we don't need to explore it at this stage?
4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes. The other reason why this witness hasn't
5 been asked about it is it is our understanding that that second
6 procedure -- the case before the -- that is now before the Belgrade
7 Special Court only started years after and therefore is not the outcome of
8 the investigation that the witness was involved in.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: We of course have extensive records and
11 documentary evidence from those record, and they have been disclosed to
12 the -- from the special court case and I'm sure the Defence has that as
13 well. We have disclosed all of that material. If it would assist the
14 Court, we can certainly make that available to the Court and --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Not necessary. You're the person who can judge
16 whether it will be of assistance to us because we don't know anything
17 about those proceedings. All I'm trying to do is establish the state of
18 play. You're say saying that these are ongoing proceedings, are you?
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: That's correct.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, I think these are matters for you to judge. I
21 just wanted to be clear about the current situation, and I note that your
22 explanation is that this is -- or these are proceedings which have arisen
23 years after the events that we're considering.
24 Now, Mr. Sepenuk.
25 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.
2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I will have a few. I can assist you in
3 telling you that this Tanovic is dead and there are no proceedings against
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. -- well, you have your first and last name
7 and I cannot force myself to call you K and the number, so I will just
8 address you with mister. I hope you won't mind.
9 A. I don't.
10 Q. My name is Toma Fila and I appear on behalf of Nikola Sainovic.
11 A. Very well.
12 Q. First, to clarify, as regards to patrol comprising the four of
13 you, to go back to that briefly, you mentioned there were four of you and
14 there was no Tanovic, no mention of Tanovic at the time. And then you
15 mentioned Cegar appearing and everything else. And then all of a sudden
16 you see Cukaric and Tanovic taking out four Albanians. Is that so?
17 A. I didn't understand.
18 Q. When you set out on your patrol there were four of you. There was
19 no Tanovic in the story yet?
20 A. I may have omitted Tanovic, but he was a member of the patrol
21 together with Nenad Jovanovic, the assistant commander --
22 Q. And Cukaric?
23 A. Yes, and Petkovic and myself.
24 Q. So that's five?
25 A. The four of us plus the assistant commander.
1 Q. Yes, so we needed to clarify that.
2 Then you were interrogated by an investigative judge in Belgrade?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So you were questioned by investigative judge in Belgrade. Do you
5 remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. He put a few questions to you --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: One moment.
9 Yes, Mr. Marcussen.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'm sorry to interrupt my learned colleague. I
11 had problems with this myself. I'm told that after we have posed a
12 question we need to turn off our microphones because otherwise the voice
13 will be picked up by the microphone and the voice distortion will not
14 work. It's very inconvenient. I'm sorry, but that's apparently how we
15 have to proceed.
16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise.
17 Q. To repeat the question. You were questioned by Judge Dilparic, do
18 you remember that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. He had questions for you regarding the Berisha family and what
21 those houses were like, and you said that as people they were always a bit
22 on the dirty side. Is that correct?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, that they were
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation].
2 Q. Then you were asked if Tanovic and Cukaric had any reason to hate
3 these people?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Did he ask you that?
6 A. He did.
7 Q. And then you said: Well, I don't know. It is possible. There
8 were OSCE monitors there, they were with them, they let them in their
9 houses, they used their jeeps, they ran over a woman in Suva Reka and
10 nothing happened. They were sort of -- well, no one could touch them for
11 as long as the monitors were there. Is that -- this what you stated?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can we conclude therefore that the behaviour of Cukaric and
14 Tanovic was sort of a revenge against the Berisha family?
15 A. I don't know whether he had any dispute or feud with the Berisha
17 Q. But if we put this all in the context of the Berisha family
18 treatment of the Serbs, could there have been a reason that this
19 particular incident happened to them?
20 A. Yes, it is possible.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.
22 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, the --
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I conclude my examination.
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think at the end the witness was asked to
25 speculate. He had already indicated he didn't know, but --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's a pretty reasonable assessment of
2 the situation. He had already said that he didn't know whether Tanovic
3 and Cukaric had any dispute or feud with the Berisha family.
4 Mr. O'Sullivan.
5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: And Mr. Bakrac.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll be very brief and I
8 will try to conclude before the break.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. K83, my name is Mihajlo Bakrac, one of the
11 counsel for General Lazarevic, and I will try to put a few questions to
12 you so that we can conclude shortly. I would like to clarify something.
13 You told my learned friend Mr. Ackerman that there was no army at the time
14 in Suva Reka, and you confirmed that in your statement. My question,
15 therefore, is the following: Is it correct that the army was on a
16 mountain in the forest nearby?
17 A. Yes, they were outside of Suva Reka. They were never in the
19 Q. The place where the army was, is it called Dulje?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Will you agree with me, since you were a reserve policeman, that
22 the pass or the hill called Dulje is at the very entrance to the Crnjelovo
23 gorge and it has certain strategic importance?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you know because of this strategic importance the Army of
1 Yugoslavia was often attacked by the KLA at that very spot, at Dulje?
2 A. Yes, I do know.
3 Q. To move on to another topic, you mentioned the Cegar police unit
4 is it correct that the unit was stationed in the Balkan Hotel in Suva
6 A. Part of, not all of them. Some were up at Dulje.
7 Q. Is it also correct that you and your colleagues used a Russian
8 make car called Gazik for your patrols and this was a bullet-proof
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If I may have a moment, Your Honours,
12 I believe I will have no further questions.
13 I have no further questions, Your Honours. Thank you.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.
15 Mr. Marcussen.
16 MR. MARCUSSEN: We -- I do have some questions. We have close to
17 the break. I don't know whether Your Honours --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: There won't be any harm in overrunning for 15
19 minutes, if that's what you have in mind, and we'll start is a minutes
20 later in the afternoon. It would be much more convenient than having to
21 interrupt the witness somewhere.
22 MR. MARCUSSEN: No, I think that's a good solution. Thank you.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
24 Re-examination by Mr. Marcussen:
25 Q. K83, you were asked whether on the -- on the -- on the 26th in the
1 morning there had been a briefing where you had been given assignments. I
2 just want to clarify that point. In the morning you had gone to -- you
3 had gone with supplies and other things outside Suva Reka as I understand
4 it. Had there been a briefing where that assignment had been given to
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But during that briefing there had been no talk of any operation
8 involving the OSCE house, the Restane road, or involving the assistance of
9 the Cegar units. Is that how I should understand your answer to my
10 learned friend?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And I also think you said that Nenad Jovanovic looked surprised
13 when Cegar 1 told him to get moving and join him in the operation. Is
14 that correct?
15 A. Well, he was surprised because he didn't know why he should get
16 going. He had regular work that he was supposed to do; that's why he was
17 surprised and we were surprised, too.
18 Q. But then -- so -- and that is why you say that you think that the
19 whole thing started because Cegar 1 arrived. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, right.
21 Q. Now, you have described how you were running towards the -- in the
22 direction of the OSCE house and other houses. Would you describe all that
23 movement as -- as a joint operation between people from the OUP and the
24 Cegar units?
25 A. Well, it could be put that way because -- well, we were sort of --
1 well, first they went and we went behind them and, well, sort of.
2 Q. So while you were told to take up a position in certain places,
3 the Cegar units were taking care of other houses, so there was some sort
4 of organised division of labour going on. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. You were also asked about the investigations that were carried out
7 at the OSCE building and I have some questions about that. Now, first of
8 all your evidence is that the person who bought -- brought Jashar Berisha
9 down to the pizzeria, one of those persons was Todor Jovanovic. Is that
10 the same Todor Jovanovic who participated on the investigation team that
11 you provided security for?
12 A. Yes, crime scene technician.
13 Q. So he knew what had happened at the pizza bar?
14 A. I think he knew, since it got that far.
15 Q. Would you -- I know you were at the pizzeria. But considering
16 what happened at the pizzeria, hand-grenades being thrown, a lot of fire
17 from automatic weapons, would that have been heard at the OUP, the police
19 A. I don't know. It wasn't that much -- I mean, it wasn't that
20 strong a detonation, because there were buildings around and concrete.
21 Q. You explained that a number of people arrived, Vuksanovic,
22 Djordjevic. Did other policemen come to the pizzeria during the day when
23 you were sitting down at the position you might you remember you indicated
24 with a B close to the kiosk by the pizzeria?
25 A. Well, there were a lot of people from the civil protection and
1 from the municipality, from the TO -- well, I cannot refer to all those
2 names now and remember all of them. Well, people came sort of out of
3 curiosity to see that.
4 Q. Was it an incident that people talked about in Suva Reka
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you speak to other of your colleagues about the incident?
8 A. Well, we did talk.
9 Q. In your opinion, would your --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: That depends who the colleagues were, if I've
11 understood your drift.
12 MR. MARCUSSEN:
13 Q. Do you remember who you spoke to about the incident?
14 A. Oh, I don't know. They were colleagues, sort of everyday
15 co-workers. I cannot remember exactly what their names were.
16 Q. Were -- was this being spoken about to such an extent you think
17 your superior officers would have heard about it?
18 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour, calls for speculation.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I think that's a question that's within --
20 again, within the compass of the witness's experience and he can tell us
21 if he has no idea.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know. I don't know.
23 MR. MARCUSSEN:
24 Q. After the 26th -- well, let me put my question differently. You
25 went down with the investigation team along the Restane road the day after
1 the incident and you found a number of bodies. Were there any civilians
2 that you came by in that area?
3 A. Yes, there were some civilians.
4 Q. After the events in the first days after the -- the NATO bombings,
5 did a lot of Albanians leave Suva Reka town?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You were also asked about communication between the OUP and
8 Prizren and you said that there had been a break-down in communication. I
9 understand your evidence to be you're not entirely sure about when that
10 break-down was. But while there was a break-down in communication, could
11 you drive on the road between Suva Reka and Prizren?
12 A. Yes, one could drive.
13 Q. Do you know whether there was communication between the police
14 station in Suva Reka and the SUP in Prizren by simply sending people back
15 and forth between the two places?
16 A. I didn't understand.
17 Q. Do you know whether the communication problems that occurred were
18 overcome by sending people back and forth by road between -- for example,
19 from the police station in Suva Reka and down to Prizren to make reports
20 or receive instructions?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Your evidence was that the break-down in
23 communication was caused by damage to electricity.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was because of electricity.
25 There was no electricity for four or five days, but the road between
1 Prizren and Suva Reka was open.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: What about communication either by telephone or by
3 radio between Prizren and Suva Reka, was that impossible during this
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, certain types of radio
6 communication did function. I don't know whether all the devices were
7 operating, but one could communicate by radio.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: I want to ask you one separate question also. The
9 immediate superior of yours Jovanovic, who was not at the pizzeria, was he
10 aware of the events there?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps afterwards, but I didn't see
12 him on that day.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm thinking of afterwards. Did he become
14 aware of these events after they had occurred?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I believe so.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.
17 MR. MARCUSSEN:
18 Q. Is this Jovanovic, is he charged, to your knowledge, before the
19 Belgrade court?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You were asked some questions about looting of houses and whether
22 a number of people had been arrested between March and May. Do you know
23 whether the houses that were looted were -- belonged to Serbs or to
25 A. To Albanians.
1 Q. And finally, you were asked about the communication -- no, sorry,
2 you were asked about the point in time when you were drinking the two
3 bottles of liquor. When you testified -- when I asked you some questions
4 you said that you saw -- you saw Cukaric communicate on the radio. Was he
5 communicating on the radio before, during, or after you had been drinking
6 the alcohol?
7 A. I believe before.
8 Q. While you were drinking the alcohol, did you discuss what would --
9 what you would do next?
10 A. Well, Cukaric and Tanovic discussed throwing a hand-grenade in the
12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well -- so that brings your evidence here to an
15 end. Thank you very much for coming to the Tribunal to give this
17 The court's going to rise now, and we will resume at 2.15.
18 Just stay where you are until we've left the courtroom and then
19 arrangements will be made also for you to leave. Thank you.
20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.47 p.m.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 --- On resuming at 2.18 p.m.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honours. There's a point
25 regarding the evidence that we have been hearing from the two or three
1 last witnesses, actually, that I thought I should just clarify. I realise
2 that I omitted to clarify this earlier. We have heard evidence about the
3 killing of Jashar Berisha. He is not among the scheduled victims on
4 Schedule D. I just wanted to make that clear so there's no confusion
5 later on about whether there's a mistake. His evidence is relevant to --
6 to the issue of how bodies from Suva Reka were moved around. And also, on
7 the family-tree that was introduced through Shyrete Berisha, P2346, there
8 are two children mentioned at the bottom of that family-tree, Genshi, and
9 Graniqi Berisha, 4 and 2 years old. These two persons are not on the
10 Schedule D either. I just wanted to make that clear to.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: That's helpful.
12 Are you taking the next witness?
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: My colleague, Mr. Scully, will do that.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Who is the next witness, Mr. Scully?
15 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, the next witness is Hysni Berisha.
16 Mr. Berisha was originally a 92 bis (D) witness; his evidence has now been
17 offered through 92 ter. The transcript in Milosevic can be found at
18 P2281 --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just hold on, is that an alteration to the
21 MR. SCULLY: Yeah.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: The last witness running order running I have is
23 the 22nd of September, which indicated Osman Kuci as the next witness.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 MR. HANNIS: That is correct, Your Honour. We had indicated via
1 e-mail, I believe, to your Legal Officers and to Defence counsel yesterday
2 that Mr. Kuci would not be called.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: At all?
4 MR. HANNIS: At all.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. I'm sorry. I didn't get that
6 information. I spent some time on this, regrettably.
7 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry that happened, Your Honour. We did notify
8 the Legal Officers yesterday evening when we became -- when we came to
9 that decision.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 Well, good afternoon, Mr. Berisha.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please now make the solemn declaration to
14 tell the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed
15 before you?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot hear the Albanian
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'll start again. Could you please make the
19 solemn declaration to tell the truth by reading aloud the document which
20 is now before you?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
24 Now, we have in front of us already a big bundle of paper which
25 sets out the account you can give of various events. It includes the
1 written transcript of the evidence you gave before when you came here, it
2 includes statements you've given and other information. So there's a lot
3 of information already before the court. The purpose of you being here
4 today is so that counsel for the parties can ask you questions, either to
5 add to that information, to explain it more fully, or to challenge it.
6 The important thing for you to do is concentrate on the point that the
7 questioner wants more information or any information about and try to
8 confine the answer you give to the point that's being explored so that we
9 don't go back over all the information we've already got. Time is short
10 and precious in this building, and therefore it's important that we
11 concentrate on the things that counsel want to ask you. The first person
12 to ask questions will be for the Prosecution, Mr. Scully.
13 Mr. Scully.
14 MR. SCULLY: Thank you, Your Honour. Would you like the relevant
15 paragraph numbers or should I proceed.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I think in this case you can proceed.
17 MR. SCULLY: Thank you.
18 WITNESS: HYSNI BERISHA
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Examination by Mr. Scully:
21 Q. Mr. Berisha, can you please state your name and spell both your
22 first and last name for the record.
23 A. My name is Hysni, H-y-s-n-i, my father's name is Sylejman
24 S-y-l-e-j-m-a-n, and the surname is Berisha, B-e-r-i-s-h-a.
25 Q. And, Mr. Berisha, wrote do you live now?
1 A. I live in Suhareke, Kosovo.
2 Q. And how long have you lived in Suva Reka?
3 A. From the day I was born on the 12th of April, 1948.
4 Q. Did you provide a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor dated
5 20 August, 2001, regarding the events in Suva Reka in 1998, 1999, and
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you add information to that statement on 13 March 2002?
9 A. Yes, correct.
10 MR. SCULLY: For the record, that is Exhibit P2282.
11 Q. Mr. Berisha, did you also testify in the Milosevic case regarding
12 events in Suva Reka?
13 A. Yes, true.
14 MR. SCULLY: The transcript can be found at P2281.
15 Q. Mr. Berisha, did you review those two statements with me last
16 Friday, as well as yesterday, the 25th of October [sic]?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And even though you added some information to them, were the
19 statements otherwise true and correct?
20 A. Yes, very true.
21 MR. SCULLY: Your Honours, my first question will relate to page 8
22 of Exhibit P2282, and may I have Exhibit P120 at page 2 on the screen,
24 Q. Mr. Berisha, did you visit the VJ firing range in Suva Reka in
25 August 1999 with the British forensic team?
1 A. Yes, that's correct. And it was the 1st of September, 1999.
2 Q. As soon as the photograph appears on your screen, can you tell me
3 whether you recognise the location that is shown on that photograph.
4 A. Yes, that's the firing range of the former Yugoslav army. It is
5 between the villages of Korisha and Lubishte.
6 Q. How do you get to that location in terms of major roads you would
7 take from the town of Suva Reka?
8 A. If you leave from Suhareke, you go towards Prizren. About the
9 13th kilometre you can find this firing range.
10 MR. SCULLY: May I have Exhibit P123 at page 25 up on the screen
12 Q. Mr. Berisha, when you visited that firing range, were you shown
13 some items that had been recovered from the ground there?
14 A. Yes. This was before visiting the site with the British forensic
15 team, who worked at that site. On the 1st of September we assisted the
16 opening of that grave site by this forensic team, and all these objects
17 that you see on the monitor were found at this site, grave site.
18 Q. Why were you shown the objects that have appeared on the monitor
19 in P123?
20 A. All these items with a code KRA were found at the mass grave at
21 the firing range of the Yugoslav army, and these items were found when
22 this grave site was opened. The code was KRA and they were shown to me to
23 identify the missing people.
24 Q. And drawing your attention to the numbers and letters that are
25 written next to the objects, were those KRA codes next to the objects when
1 you saw them for the purposes of identifying the items?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Berisha, are you saying these were found before
5 the British forensic team did their work?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. These here were found while the
7 British team was working there, the British team opened the grave site.
8 They were in the ground.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 MR. SCULLY:
11 Q. Mr. Berisha, were you able to recognise a number of items that
12 were shown to you and did you put your description of the items into your
13 statement of 2001?
14 A. Yes. These items that are shown on the monitor were identified by
15 me and the family members of those people, and they were identified -- for
16 example, KRA1036 is the handkerchief of Musli Berisha and his son and
17 daughter identified it.
18 MR. SCULLY: Your Honours, Exhibits P123, P133, and P134 are
19 sequences of photos very similar to this one. I'm moving to admit them at
20 this time based on this foundation and based upon the description in the
21 statement. If the Court would like further foundation, I would need to
22 show him each page, which I think would be rather time-consuming.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there any objection to that course of action?
24 Very well, you can proceed on that basis.
25 MR. SCULLY: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Can I have P122 at page 5.
2 Q. Drawing your attention to the left side of the screen, to the
3 photo shown there, do you recognise that photograph?
4 A. Yes. This photograph was found at the grave site, and I know the
5 people who are in this photograph.
6 Q. Did you see that photograph recovered at the grave site?
7 A. Yes. It was found on the 1st of September, 1999.
8 MR. SCULLY: May we have the next page, which is the photograph
9 shown closer.
10 Q. Who are the people who are depicted in that photograph?
11 A. In the photograph you can see the wife of Hamdi Berisha, with her
12 son Mirat, who were killed. Hamdi was killed and Mirat's four sisters
13 were killed.
14 MR. SCULLY: May I have Exhibit P125 at page 17.
15 Your Honours, these -- the next four photographs were previously
16 shown to Sherita Berisha and she had testified that the people depicted
17 there were killed in the coffee shop but she was unable to provide the
18 names of these witnesses. Because they are scheduled, I am simply going
19 to ask this witness if he knows, based on his personal experience, who
20 these people are.
21 Q. Mr. Berisha, taking a look at the photograph on your screen --
22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, just seeing these photographs now
23 they've got -- they've got names at the bottom of them. I don't think
24 that's proper if he's going to identify the individuals if it has a name
25 on it that can be read.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I actually don't remember having a name from the
2 other day if we -- we saw this photograph the other day and I don't think
3 there was a name on it. I may be wrong, but --
4 MR. SCULLY: We're checking, but I think this is the only copy of
5 the exhibit we have. These are family members and so I would submit that
6 that goes to weight rather than admissibility of the identification.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on and let's see what we can do about it
8 because -- can you check, though, whether this is the only copy?
9 MR. SCULLY: The -- we can also -- it's a little late on this one.
10 For the next ones we can ask the court staff to zoom in on the photograph
11 before it's displayed to the witness.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, the other exhibit is P2344, which has
14 not only the name but that -- the persons were present in the coffee bar
15 written on it. I don't know of an exhibit that doesn't have it.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on a second.
17 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, if I can lay some foundation about how
18 he knows these people, I think some of the Court's concerns about the
19 accuracy of the identification may be allayed.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm getting advice just now, Mr. Scully, that P2344
22 does not have the names.
23 MR. SCULLY: If that's the case, Your Honour, I would be delighted
24 to use it.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's the recollection of the Bench, that we
1 saw photographs without names. It may say "present in coffee bar," but
2 without the name.
3 MR. SCULLY: If P2344 is a better exhibit, I'm delighted to use
4 that one. I believed that it had the copies on it and the copy on our
5 screen does have names written on them or at least family relationships
6 written on it. Your Honour, may I suggest we eliminate this problem and
7 future ones by just zooming in on the photograph.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: If you're confident that the names will not show.
9 [Microphone not activated]
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, proceed to use the one you've got on the
13 screen, Mr. Scully, and when you use the best one do your best to avoid
14 exposing the name before the witness has a chance to comment.
15 MR. SCULLY: Yes, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Berisha, do you know the person shown in that photograph?
17 A. Yes, she's from my family. She's the fourth daughter of Hamdi
18 Berisha and Selija Berisha and the youngest sister of Mirat. You saw
19 Mirat in the former photograph, previous one.
20 Q. When she was alive, how often did you see her?
21 A. Because we are close in our family, we met each other very often.
22 MR. SCULLY: May I have page 18, if you could just bring it up on
23 the attorneys' screens before publishing it through the court usher to the
24 witness. Alternatively, if court staff can publish it, I don't know need
25 to preview it. That's perfect. Is that on the witness's screen? Thank
2 Q. Mr. Berisha, do you recognise the person shown in that photograph?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who is that person?
5 A. She is Hanumshahe Berisha, the wife of Sait Musli Berisha, the
6 wife of Hamdi Berisha, Avdi Berisha, Musli Berisha. From this family, 16
7 people were killed. She was the oldest one.
8 MR. SCULLY: May I now have the photograph shown on page 24 with
9 the same arrangement. And following 24, if it aids in preparation, I'll
10 be asking for 28.
11 Q. Mr. Berisha, do you recognise that person?
12 A. Yes. She's the third daughter of Hamdi and Selija Berisha, or
13 third sister of Mirat.
14 Q. And do you know her first name?
15 A. Arta or Zana Berisha.
16 MR. SCULLY: May I have page 28 with the same arrangement.
17 Q. Who is that person, Mr. Berisha?
18 A. This is Musli Sahit Berisha, the eldest son of Hanumshahe Berisha
19 and Hamdi's and Avdi's brother.
20 Q. Thank you?
21 MR. SCULLY: The next exhibit I'll ask for is P2351, drawing the
22 Court's attention now to page 7 of Mr. Berisha's statement.
23 Q. Mr. Berisha, during the course of the investigations you've
24 described in your statement, did you prepare a list of persons killed and
25 missing in Suva Reka and provide it to the Prosecution in 2001?
1 A. Yes, I did. I gave them a list that I had at the time. I have
2 now an extended list.
3 Q. Drawing your attention to the document that is on your screen, is
4 that the extended list you just described?
5 A. No, it doesn't start from number 1. This is just one page of that
7 Q. I think we ended up somewhere in the middle of that exhibit. It
8 looks like that's page 7. I think it might actually be easiest to go to
9 the last page.
10 A. Yes, this is the new list, with the additions that were made
12 Q. What is different about that list from the list you provided in
14 A. It is different because the former list did not have many of the
15 names of the victims, and after the family members came and gave us names
16 of missing people, then the list became this one.
17 Q. Did you also remove some people from the original list?
18 A. No, I don't think so. We just added to the list.
19 Q. Did you remove any persons from the original list based on their
20 membership in the KLA?
21 A. There are no KLA soldiers here in this list. This is a list of
22 civilians. The list of soldiers is another one, so they are not included
23 in this one.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. SCULLY: Your Honours, speaking now generally about the
1 witness's statement.
2 Q. Mr. Berisha, in your statement, you used the terms "police"
3 and "regular police." Can you please tell the Court who you include in
4 that category.
5 A. First I would like to point out that I never worked or been a
6 member in the police or the VJ. I've only completed my military service.
7 For me all the police forces that were present there during the war in
8 Kosova included many forces such as local Serbs that I knew from the past
9 and during the war saw in uniforms, be it police or military one and I
10 differentiated them from regular police. I called them rather member of
11 Territorial Defence; however, they were under the command of the regular
13 Q. Mr. Berisha, I apologise for interrupting, but can you just tell
14 us how you define the terms "police" and "regular police." I'll ask you
15 some of those other questions in a moment.
16 A. In my opinion, a regular police was the public-order police;
17 however, these formations also included civilian formations that were
18 mobilised, either in the police or Serbian army. And this is what in
19 broad terms I call regular police.
20 Q. What type of uniform, if any, would the regular police wear?
21 A. They had blue camouflage uniforms and solid blue uniforms.
22 Q. Thank you. You also used the term "paramilitary." Can you please
23 tell us what you mean by that term.
24 A. I had the opportunity to come across forces that were wearing
25 other types of uniforms, such as black uniforms with different insignia.
1 I thought they were paramilitaries and that they were operating in
2 Suhareke region. And also I've seen uniforms of the regular police that I
3 already described. The paramilitary uniform, for me to describe it, I
4 always based on the fact that the special units wore black uniforms.
5 Q. Did you personally know some of the people you've described as
7 A. Yes, I knew many of these local Serbs.
8 Q. And did you know that the people you knew and described as
9 paramilitaries were not employed by the police on a regular basis?
10 A. Not before 1998. They were not employed by the police, but after
11 this year they became members of the police.
12 Q. Did you ever observe people you've described as paramilitaries and
13 people you've described as regular police working together?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When did you see them working together?
16 A. During 1998 and 1999, especially after 24th of March, 1999.
17 MR. SCULLY: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further questions
18 at this time.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, we will proceed in the following
21 order: General Lukic, General Pavkovic, General Ojdanic,
22 General Lazarevic, Mr. Sainovic, and Mr. Milutinovic. Thank you.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
1 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I represent
2 Mr. Sreten Lukic in these proceedings, along with my colleagues Mr. Branko
3 Lukic and Mr. Ozren Ogrizovic. And I have a couple of questions for you
4 to try and clarify some points that you have testified to here today. I
5 would ask you to pay close attention to what I ask you, and I would also
6 ask you to make sure that your answers are the most concise and truthful
7 answers possible, so that if you don't understand a question please ask me
8 to repeat it.
9 Now, first of all, sir, you've told us that you were never
10 employed by the police. I want to ask you about your education. Did you
11 have any education in any type of investigative activities?
12 A. I don't know if it is necessary for me to answer this question,
13 Your Honours, because I was asked the same question during my testimony in
14 Milosevic trial. If you find it reasonable for me to answer it, I will,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I think it is open to counsel to ask the same
17 question as was asked in an earlier trial as a prelude to developing other
18 questions that they wish to ask. So it would be helpful if you would
19 answer that question again today.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not trained in investigative
21 activities. I am an attorney-at-law by profession. What made me
22 investigate is the fact that 48 persons from my family were killed, from
23 my extended family were killed. This is the reason why I got engaged into
24 investigative activities.
25 MR. IVETIC:
1 Q. Okay. Sir, now did anyone assist you in your voluntary
2 investigations that you conducted in June of 1999 and thereafter?
3 A. No. I assisted others for the truth to come on to surface.
4 Q. And did your investigative work receive any support or assistance
5 from the temporary government that was in place in Suva Reka or by any
6 other body?
7 A. On 13th of June, I began my investigative activities about the
8 crimes that were committed. At that time there were no institutions in
10 Q. You will agree with me, however, that at some point in time
11 between June of 1999 and October 8th of 1999, there was a temporary
12 government council established in the town of Suva Reka. Isn't that
14 A. What I said earlier refers to an earlier period. Later on, a
15 commission was found for investigating war crimes that were committed in
16 Suhareke municipality, and I was a member of this commission.
17 Q. Thank you for that clarification. And now isn't it also correct
18 that the temporary government established in Suva Reka was established by
19 Hashim Thaqi's political party, that is the political party of the KLA,
20 and this existed until October 1999, when it was dismantled by UNMIK, the
21 United Nations Mission in Kosovo?
22 A. To me a temporary government is a civil administration that
23 was -- in the beginning, as I said, Kosova was without administration.
24 And this temporary government did not engage in investigations. We as
25 family members of the victims became members of the commission for
1 investigating war crimes.
2 Q. Just trying to see if my question had been answered. Isn't it
3 correct that Hashim Thaqi's political party established a temporary
4 government in Suva Reka that was dismantled in October of 1999 by UNMIK?
5 A. I don't know exactly until what period this provisional government
6 functioned. I don't know when it stopped functioning. Either it was at
7 the time when the first election were held or in October, but when the
8 UNMIK administration was established it took over all the civil powers in
9 their hands.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, as part of your investigative work, were
11 you composing any type of reports regarding the work that you were
13 A. As far as reports are concerned, I didn't compile any report
14 myself. My work was exclusively a terrain work, a field work, in order to
15 identify mass graves and persons that are missing to this date.
16 Q. Okay. And you have, I believe, identified here today this list
17 that you've created. And correct me if I'm wrong, but this new extended
18 list that was shown on e-court, it contains the names of persons who died
19 in 1998 and is not limited to 1999, as you had originally stated in your
20 statement. Is that correct?
21 A. No. First of all, they did not die. All persons on that list did
22 not die a natural death; they were killed by the Serbian police and
23 military forces. The list includes names of victims that were killed
24 during 1998 and 1999.
25 Q. And I believe your statement talks about the list being limited to
1 1999, but I'll move on. With respect to this list, you testified that
2 there was -- well, first of all, does this list include civilians who were
3 killed by the KLA in the Suva Reka municipality at any point in time
4 during 1998 or 1999?
5 A. Nobody was killed in Suhareke by the KLA, be it a person from a
6 Roma ethnicity or a Serb ethnicity or Albanian ethnicity -- at least I
7 don't have any information of this kind.
8 Q. Were your investigations conducted to determine deaths of persons
9 killed by the KLA or did you just focus upon ethnic Albanian civilians?
10 A. Civilians killed, who were killed.
11 Q. Did you investigate any Serb civilians who were killed during the
12 relevant time-period and do they appear on your list?
13 A. I would gladly conduct investigation about such cases, but they
14 did not address me with any request of this kind, to investigate a Serb
15 civilian that had been killed.
16 Q. Well, you certainly knew about Serb civilians that had been killed
17 by the KLA, did you not?
18 A. As I said, I don't know of a case of a Serb killed by the KLA in
20 Q. Do you know the case of Bogdan Lazic killed in March 1999, at 1430
21 hours in the Balkan Bet shop that's referenced in your statement?
22 A. I want to make a clarification here. On the 22nd of March, 1999,
23 at around -- now I don't know exactly, but it was around 12.00, an
24 incident occurred and to this day it is not clear who carried out that
25 incident. It looks that it was a staged incident as a pretext to carry
1 out the massacre that occurred the same day when ten Albanian civilians
2 were killed, nine men and one woman.
3 Q. Did you carry out investigations related to Mr. Lazic's killing?
4 A. No, I didn't because I didn't have any source of information.
5 From what I learned from the diary of --
6 Q. I think you've answered my question --
7 A. Stanislav Niskovic --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, Andrejevic.
9 MR. IVETIC:
10 Q. I think you've answered my question. I want to ask you about the
11 other --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: It would help us to have the complete answer to the
13 question. The witness was explaining why he had no source of information
14 I think. And then he goes on to say: From what I learned from the diary
16 Now, could you complete that answer, please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 As I was saying in my previous answer, from the notebook of
19 Stanislav Andjelkovic, who was a high official in Suhareke municipality,
20 and the case of the killing of the Serb that was mentioned by the counsel
21 and of these ten Albanians were not mentioned at all, it is just saying
22 there that the local authorities are investigating an incident, an act of
23 crime, and it's not clear whether this act of crime refers to the killing
24 of this Serb or to the killing of the ten Albanian civilians. From the
25 date when these Albanians were killed, the ten civilians, their bodies
1 have not been found to this day.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. The gentleman, Mr. Lazic, isn't it correct that he comes from the
5 neighbourhood near the Bytyqi, Morina, Hoxha, and Kryeziu families?
6 A. No, that's not correct. Mr. Lazic lived in Sopia village, which
7 is 3 kilometres from Suhareke. Zoti Lazic has nothing to do with the
8 Bytyqi brothers, Morina brothers, or Hoxha brothers in this particular
9 case. He lived, Mr. Lazic lived, in Sopia village.
10 Q. Did he have other family members living in and around the Suva
11 Reka municipality?
12 A. I don't know that. I know that he worked in Suhareke
13 municipality, and Sopia village is part of Suhareke municipality.
14 Q. Okay. Now if we can return to the second list that you mentioned,
15 the list that has KLA members who are deceased. First of all, did you
16 give a copy of that list to the Office of the Prosecutor?
17 A. I don't think that this list includes names of KLA soldiers. We
18 did not consider KLA soldiers as civilian victims. So us they were
19 heroes, people's heroes, because they took up weapons to defend the
20 civilian population.
21 Q. I take it from your response that you supported the KLA during the
22 war. Is that accurate?
23 A. Not only me, but the entire Albanian population in Kosova
24 supported the KLA. I'm just one of them.
25 Q. Well, now I'd like to ask you about what you testified here
1 earlier. You mentioned a second list with KLA members, and that is the
2 list that I'm asking you about. Did you provide a copy of that list to
3 the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?
4 A. I don't remember. I can tell you the number that occurs on that
5 list, but I don't know if I offered that list to the Prosecutor's office
6 or not. I know that I provided the Prosecutor's office with two lists:
7 The first list of civilian victims and the second extended list. If there
8 is a third list, maybe I did offer it to them but I don't remember.
9 Q. Well, sir, you mentioned at page 80, line 23 through 25 of today's
10 transcript that there is a list of soldiers and you said it's "another
11 one." So I want to ask you: How many fallen KLA soldiers from the
12 municipality of Suva Reka appear on this second list which you may or may
13 not have given to the Prosecutor?
14 A. Your Honour, I want to be clear. The list that I offered to the
15 Office of the Prosecutor includes names of civilian victims that were
16 killed in Suhareke municipality. It has nothing to do with the list of
17 soldiers that the counsel is putting to me.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: In your earlier evidence you said there were no
19 KLA soldiers on the list. You said it was a list of civilians, and you
20 then said: "The list of soldiers is another one, so they are not on this
22 Now, what counsel is asking you is about what you appear to have
23 said was a separate list of soldiers. Now, is there such a list? Well,
24 his questions are directed to that. So bear that in mind when you're
25 trying to answer them.
1 Mr. Ivetic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now this question is clear to me. I
5 said earlier that there is a list of soldiers who were killed on the front
6 line. To my knowledge, this list includes the names of 83 martyrs but
7 this list was not presented to the ICTY investigators in my part because I
8 did not deal with -- I was not involved in the investigations of martyrs
9 that were killed. My work dealt strictly dealt with investigation of
10 victims, civilian victims that were killed.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: And to ensure that we have the whole picture, were
12 these 83 deceased all within the Suva Reka municipality?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Sir, limiting ourselves to the Suva Reka municipality, is it
18 accurate that during 1998 and 1999 the 123rd Brigade of the so-called KLA
19 was operating in that area and had approximately 1.600 armed fighters in
20 its structure?
21 A. It is true that 123rd Brigade was operating in Suhareke
22 municipality, but I don't know the number of soldiers it had.
23 Q. Thank you. And is it also accurate that the 123rd Brigade of the
24 KLA controlled various villages and territory within the Suva Reka
1 A. It was in mountainous and hilly regions. The population that was
2 forced to withdraw for security reasons, that area was under the
3 protection of the KLA.
4 Q. Is it -- is my understanding correct from your response that you
5 have knowledge of the fact that the KLA ordered the Albanian civilian
6 population to move at various times in the Suva Reka municipality?
7 MR. SCULLY: Objection. I don't believe the witness has any basis
8 for answering that question.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the answer is such that I would have asked
10 the question if Mr. Ivetic hadn't asked it. The answer that was given
11 was: "They were in control in the mountainous and hilly areas where the
12 population had to withdraw for security reasons." I see nothing wrong
13 with the question that's been asked to follow that up.
14 Carry on with it, please.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Sir, I'll ask the question again. Is my understanding correct
17 from your response that you have knowledge of the fact that the KLA
18 ordered the ethnic Albanian civilian population to move at various times
19 from various villages in the Suva Reka municipality?
20 A. No. The Kosovo Liberation Army never directed or ordered the
21 civilian population to leave their own villages. The civilian population
22 sought shelter after the attacks that were undertaken by the Serbian --
23 Yugoslav army and police by shelling villages from different directions.
24 Q. During the -- during the time-period of January through March
25 1999, did you ever have contact with any officers of the KLA?
1 A. Could you state the time-period again, please?
2 Q. Sure. The time-period I stated was January 1999 through March
4 A. No, I have never contacted any officer.
5 Q. And then -- well, I see that the time period -- well, how about in
6 1998 or ...
7 A. The Kosovo Liberation Army did not operate in the city of
8 Suhareke. It was never present, neither in 1998 nor in 1999.
9 Q. But it did exist and operate in a majority of the villages that
10 surrounded and were adjacent to Suva Reka town. Isn't that correct, sir?
11 A. I'm speaking about Suhareke because I was always there, in
12 Suhareke, and I can speak about the army and police forces, the Yugoslav
13 army and police forces that I came across during that period.
14 Q. Okay, sir. Now, you stated in your direct examination that the
15 Territorial Defence was under the authority and control of the police
16 forces. Are you aware of the -- of the laws of the Federal Republic of
17 Yugoslavia and the Republic of Serbia that were in existence during the
18 time-period of 1998 and 1999?
19 A. I know that there were laws about killing as many Albanians as
20 possible, and that's what was done.
21 Q. Well, sir, as a lawyer, could you please cite to me a law that
22 called for the killing of as many Albanians as possible, or are you
23 perhaps giving false testimony?
24 A. First of all, I have to remind you, sir, and the accused here,
25 that in March 1999 before the NATO bombing started, you threatened the
1 Albanian population with the words that: If NATO bombs the Serbian forces
2 and positions, we will expel the Albanians. On the 24th of March, in the
3 afternoon, in addition to the reinforcements that were coming to Kosova
4 all the time, police forces and army forces were coming from Serbia at
5 that time and they were stationed in Suhareke.
6 Q. Sir, I'm still waiting for you to answer my question to cite the
7 specific law that you referenced that said that all Albanians should be
8 killed, or was that perhaps false testimony on your part?
9 A. No. This is not false testimony, but I'm speaking about the facts
10 that we've lived --
11 Q. I would ask you to cite the law.
12 A. There were orders outside the law. You proclaimed a state of war
13 in Kosova and you gave all the rights to the Yugoslav army and police to
14 act as aggressively and cruelly as possible against the Albanian
16 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that you have neither examined nor made
17 inquiry about the laws that were in effect on the territory of the Federal
18 Republic of Yugoslavia and the Republic of Serbia and the autonomous
19 province of Kosovo-Metohija during 1998/1999 that would enable you to draw
20 the conclusions that you've reached regarding the Territorial Defence
21 being under the control of the MUP or the existence of any laws to "kill
22 as many Albanians as possible"?
23 MR. SCULLY: Objection, asked and answered.
24 MR. IVETIC: I believe I've been trying to get an answer for some
25 time, but I don't believe it's been answered.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Direct me, please, Mr. Scully to the answer.
2 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, I believe the best answer is: There
3 were orders outside the law. And while that's not in the terms that
4 counsel's --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no, that was the different -- well, yeah.
6 The problem with that question, Mr. Ivetic, is you've combined the
7 two issues. You've combined the emotive one, which I think we've probably
8 moved past, with the question you started this with, which was whether
9 there was any law which placed the Territorial Defence under the control
10 of the MUP. And that's what I think this question should be confined to.
11 And if it is, I don't think Mr. Scully can object to it.
12 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. That's what I meant to confine it.
13 Perhaps I got carried away.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's be absolutely clear by asking the question
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Now, sir, is it a fact that you have neither examined nor made
18 inquiry into the laws that were in effect on the territory of the Federal
19 Republic of Yugoslavia, the Republic of Serbia, and/or the autonomous
20 province of Kosovo-Metohija in 1998 and 1999 that would enable you to draw
21 any conclusions about the operations of either the Territorial Defence or
22 the MUP, and in particular the subordination of the Territorial Defence to
23 the MUP as you testified to in your direct?
24 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, that's exactly the same question. He's
25 testified that he did examine the law and that what he's referring to is
1 the orders -- I've lost the term now, but the orders outside the law.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the question doesn't help, Mr. Ivetic. I
3 thought that there was a particular point here that you were trying to
4 undermine, which was the basis for saying that the police had authority
5 over the Territorial Defence. But your question's a much more general one
6 which --
7 MR. IVETIC: Well, I could ask it specifically that way.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: -- I don't think the witness should be required to
9 deal with again.
10 MR. IVETIC: Well, let's ask him this way.
11 Q. Do you have a factual legal basis for your conclusion that the
12 police had authority over the Territorial Defence?
13 A. Once again I will have to repeat this. Sir, you're making the
14 question in different forms, but I said earlier, and I'll repeat it again.
15 All the actions undertaken in Kosova against the civilian population were
16 commanded by the head of the Serbian state and the former Yugoslavia. And
17 all the orders were given by that leadership. And they were implemented
18 by the police, the army, in cooperation with each other.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, is there a part in the statement where
20 the particular point relating to the Territorial Defence is made?
21 MR. IVETIC: Off the top of my head, I do not recall, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
23 MR. IVETIC: So that was --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I assumed that this related to a particular
25 statement within the statement, but it appears it was a more general
2 MR. IVETIC: It was only new that I thought came up in the direct,
3 so I did not have anything on that.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I don't think this matter is going to be
5 advanced by any further questions on this line.
6 MR. IVETIC: I agree. I'm prepared to move on.
7 Q. Now, sir, in your statement you describe that on the 25th of March
8 in the morning you saw flames of burning houses. Now, you did not
9 actually see the houses as to how they were set on fire, did you?
10 A. I would like to describe the whole event before the 25th of March.
11 Before the -- 6.00 in the morning on that day, how the Serbian forces
12 penetrated and they attacked.
13 Q. Well, sir, one of the prerogatives of doing a cross-examination is
14 choosing the questions that are asked. We have your statement, we have
15 your testimony, and I'm trying to clarify specific points of it. So I
16 would ask you again: The houses that you say were burning on the morning
17 of the 25th of March from paragraph 3 of your statement, you did not
18 personally see these houses and how they were set ablaze, did you?
19 A. The police and the army set those houses on fire; I saw them.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Berisha, you're being asked -- well, sorry, you
21 have answered it now by saying that you did see the police and the army
22 setting them ablaze, did you?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
25 MR. IVETIC:
1 Q. You personally saw them. And how did they set the houses on fire,
3 A. I saw the police. They had this, special guns that they threw
4 flames with those guns. They had them on their backs and they had the
5 form of beer bottles and that's how they set the houses on fire. I don't
6 know what was inside those bottles.
7 Q. Sir, how do you explain the fact that in one statement that you
8 gave consisting of ten pages, a supplemental statement that you gave
9 consisting of one page, and testimony before the Milosevic Trial Chamber,
10 you never once testified that you saw these houses being set ablaze. Why
11 is it you have now changed your testimony?
12 MR. SCULLY: Objection to the characterisation, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what's wrong with it?
14 MR. SCULLY: He hasn't changed his testimony; he's simply added
15 information to it.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Ivetic, that seems to be strictly
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. Could you explain for us why you have added to your prior
20 testimony? Why did you not testify to this previously if in fact you saw
21 it with your own eyes?
22 A. I'm not adding anything. You're saying why I did not say this.
23 When I spoke in the trial of Slobodan Milosevic, time was limited and I
24 was not allowed to explain everything in detail. So if you ask the
25 question now, I'm completed -- I'm completing what I said in Milosevic's
1 trial; that's what I'm doing, Your Honour.
2 Q. How far were you from the burning houses, those that we are
3 talking about now, the ones that you saw on the 25th of March in the
5 A. On the 25th of March, these were a little further away. My
6 brothers were there in that area, about 600 metres as the crow flies.
7 Q. What time of day did you see them being set ablaze or night, if it
8 was night?
9 A. It was not important to know. There was so many gun-shots around.
10 It was an offensive of the army and the police together. They were
11 walking and shooting and burning and shelling, killing people. There were
12 lots of gun-shots and the flames, you could see the flames.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Berisha, I'm afraid I'm now confused. On what
14 date do you say that you saw police using flame-throwers to set houses on
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both on the 25th, 26th, 28th, 27th
17 as well.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, when you were asked: How far were you from
19 the burning houses on the 25th, you said that they were about 600 metres
20 away and it was your brothers that were in the area.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: So are you saying you observed this from 600 metres
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The smoke and the flames could be
25 seen even farther away, not the 600 metres that I mentioned. Even the
1 gun-shots --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that entirely. It's the
3 identification of who's actually setting fire to the houses that's an
4 issue. And a moment ago I got the impression you actually saw people
5 using flame-throwers to set houses on fire. I'm now getting the
6 impression you didn't actually see it with your own eyes, and it's
7 important we're clear about this.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I described the event not only of
9 the 25th, but also 26th, 27th, 28th, the 3rd of April, and so on. If we
10 focus only on the 25th, as I said, on the 25th I was 600 metres away as
11 the crow flies and it was 6.00 in the morning. I saw the smoke and the
12 flames and I heard the gun-shots. I did not say that I was very close and
13 I saw them. The families who were there in the area saw what happened,
14 and among those families were my brothers.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: On what date did you personally see anyone actually
16 set fire to a house?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 3rd of April of 1999, when
18 the police forces, the Serb police forces, came to the place where I was
19 sheltered with my wife and my five children. They came shooting in our
20 direction, where I was. And they were setting the houses on fire. That's
21 where I saw directly and with my own eyes that they had these
22 flame-throwers on their backs.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic. Oh, sorry, is this a suitable time to
24 interrupt you?
25 MR. IVETIC: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
2 Well, Mr. Berisha, we have a half-hour break at this stage, so
3 please leave the courtroom and return at 4.00.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.
7 [The witness entered court].
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Sir, I've got approximately two areas I want to ask you questions
11 about now, and then I will be completed. Now, you talk about the time
12 period when you left Suva Reka and in my version it's the eighth paragraph
13 of your statement, your written statement, you talk about how the column
14 you were in or the convoy you were in was stopped by a Milan Sipka. And
15 you claim that he ordered the whole column to return back to their homes.
16 Now, do you know what position Mr. Sipka had at that time within the
17 structure of the Serbian MUP?
18 A. I don't know whether I should explain how we were forced to leave
19 our homes.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I think -- confine the answer to the question
21 you've been asked. What position did Mr. Sipka hold in the structure of
22 the Serbian MUP?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that before 1998, that is
24 before the war, Milan Sipka was commander of the police station in
25 Suhareke. From there he was transferred to Prizren. I don't know what
1 position he held there; I have no information. And I know this as well,
2 that he was from Vojvodina.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. Now, would it be accurate to state that the SUP in Prizren was a
5 much larger police organ than the OUP in Suva Reka?
6 A. Suhareke was under the jurisdiction of the Prizren region.
7 Q. So when you say he was transferred to Prizren, would you regard
8 that as being a promotion of Mr. Sipka?
9 A. Of course the accused here behind you must know this.
10 Q. All right. Well, did you see -- on the occasion that you had to
11 deal with Mr. Sipka when he told the convoy to return to its homes, did he
12 have on any type of uniform?
13 A. Yes, a police uniform.
14 Q. And did that police uniform have any rank insignia?
15 A. I can't remember the rank insignia because it was getting darker,
16 but I know that it was dark blue camouflage uniform.
17 Q. Okay. Now I want to direct your attention when you did in fact
18 return to Suva Reka. You talk about an incident at page 5 of your
19 statement, the last paragraph, an incident that occurred on the 21st of
20 May where you identify people who ordered you to leave the house as being
21 Sinisa Andrejevic, who was a local paramilitary from Suva Reka, Nikica
22 Petkovic, brother of Zoran, and another person with the last name Milisav
23 Gogic who were with the DB under Misko Nisevic. There was also another
24 guy by the name of Ramiz who was with the regular police.
25 Now, I want to ask you about this person, Mr. Nisevic, did he wear
1 a uniform on that occasion.
2 A. I did not meet Nisevic that day. The inspector of the state
3 security, while with regard to the group of policemen who came from door
4 to door, from house to house, and ordered the civilian population to leave
5 their houses in ten minutes and get to the main road and go to Albania.
6 This was a strict order. The whole population had to leave and go to
8 Q. You stated that the gentleman came in a red Golf motor vehicle.
9 Am I correct that the red Golf motor vehicle did not have any insignia of
10 the police on it?
11 A. It -- you are talking about Sinisa Andrejevic, who was a policeman
12 in Suhareke, and all the other ones were policemen as well. They were in
13 a civilian vehicle, and why they were in a civilian vehicle, it's -- I
14 don't know. I identified those people as policemen because they were
15 wearing police uniforms.
16 Q. Did you know this Ramiz person prior to this incident?
17 A. Yes, I knew them before, before that day, all of them.
18 Q. And in fact, Ramiz is an ethnic Muslim and not a Serb. Isn't that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. But not Albanian.
23 Q. I don't believe I said he was.
24 Now, the last question I have for you is essentially: Is it
25 accurate that after this event you were asked by Andrejevic why you had
1 not gone to help cover trenches that had been dug by the KLA. And I want
2 to ask you: Where were these KLA trenches located that you had been
3 ordered or asked to fill in? Were they in Suva Reka town or were they in
4 the villages?
5 A. No, they were not in Suhareke.
6 Q. Okay.
7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I think I'm finished with this witness.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Mr. Aleksic.
10 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We have no
11 questions for this witness.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 Mr. Sepenuk.
14 MR. SEPENUK: No, we have no questions, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac -- Mr. Cepic.
16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Likewise, Your Honour, we don't have
17 any questions for this witness. Thank you.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 Mr. Petrovic.
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have no questions.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. No questions for this
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
25 Mr. Scully.
1 MR. SCULLY: Thank you, Your Honour, very briefly.
2 Re-examination by Mr. Scully:
3 Q. Mr. Berisha, drawing your attention to the questions in
4 cross-examination about the temporary government in Kosovo. Did that
5 temporary government tell you what to investigate?
6 A. No, it didn't. The government didn't tell me what to do. I
7 explained earlier that we had to identify all the people who were missing,
8 and we had family members of those people who were missing wanted to find
9 where they were, people from Suhareke and the surrounding areas.
10 Q. Thank you. In deciding to put a person on your list of missing
11 and killed, what information did you review?
12 A. In the beginning when the infantry of the -- of NATO troops
13 entered Kosova and then also they entered Suhareke, and because I was all
14 the time there, I did not leave Suhareke, with the exception of the period
15 from the 23rd of May to the 12th of June. So when the NATO forces
16 entered, we knew as family members what tragedy had happened to our
17 family. So I first went and looked at the houses for any traces of the
18 crimes, and then I went and looked at the grave sites. Some of them had a
19 plank with initials of the victims. Then there were others that had the
20 code NN, and because the family members started to dig up these grave
21 sites to find their loved ones - and I feared that the traces of the
22 crimes would be lost - I contacted the Tribunal's office in Prizren and
23 asked for their help, for them to help us to dig up those grave sites and
24 help us identify the missing persons.
25 Q. Did you also talk to living family members about whether they had
1 seen the missing people?
2 A. Yes. When the family members returned from Albania, we kept
3 constant contact with them and I got information from them. From June
4 1999 to this day, I still keep in contact with family members. And I'm
5 working for the investigation of the cases of the people who are missing,
6 because even today in the municipality of Suhareke there are over 160
7 people still missing.
8 Q. Drawing your attention now to the period of January to May of
9 1999, did you ever see a member of the KLA active in the town of Suva
11 A. No, never. The KLA was not present then and it was never present
12 in the city of -- in the town of Suhareke.
13 Q. Final couple questions, Mr. Berisha. During cross-examination you
14 described a red Golf that carried regular police officers. Did you ever
15 see any other civilian vehicles used by regular police officers in Suva
17 A. Yes, that's correct. They used those vehicles, but they also
18 robbed the vehicles of the Albanian population. I don't know where --
19 when exactly this was, but it was either on the 8th or the 9th of April
20 when we were told to return, and we returned. And Ismet Hoxha's vehicle
21 was parked in my courtyard -- my brother's courtyard, and these policemen
22 who were in the red Golf, they took the car. And I was there, I saw it.
23 And there were many other cases when they looted the vehicles and they
24 even told the people to get off the cars and took their cars away. On the
25 4th of April, when we were in the convoy in the village of Korisha, my
1 cousin, Ismet Berisha, his vehicle was taken. His mother who was 90 years
2 old was forced to get off the car, and then they took the car.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berisha.
4 MR. SCULLY: Your Honours, I have no further questions, other than
5 to move to admit the exhibits.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 Now, Mr. Berisha, that completes your evidence. Thank you for
8 coming again to the Tribunal to give it and to add to the information you
9 had given before. You're now free to leave.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, the next Prosecution witness is
12 Mrs. Aferdita Hajrizi, and I'm going to change places with Mr. Scully.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: This is also 92 bis (D)?
14 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, Your Honours, this is a 92 bis (D) witness.
15 She testifies about events in the municipality of Mitrovica, and the
16 paragraphs relevant to her testimony are 72(f), 73, 76, and 77 of the
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mrs. Hajrizi.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: You can stand up. The microphone will catch you.
23 Would you please make the solemn declaration to tell the truth by reading
24 aloud the document which will now be placed before you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
3 Ms. Kravetz.
4 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 WITNESS: AFERDITA HAJRIZI
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 Examination by Ms. Kravetz:
8 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Hajrizi, could you please state your name for
9 the record?
10 A. I am Aferdita Hajrizi.
11 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, in 1999 were you living in the town of Mitrovica in
12 Mitrovica municipality?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you provide a statement to the Office of the Prosecution on
15 3rd June 1999 and later amended that statement on 31 January of 2002?
16 A. There were only some corrections that I made with reference to the
17 translation, no other corrections.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Did you provide a second statement dated 20th
19 August, 2001, which you also later made small corrections on 6th March
21 A. Yes, yes. Again, corrections in the translation.
22 Q. And in 2002, in April 2002, did you testify before this Tribunal
23 in the Milosevic case?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour -- Your Honours, I would like to tender
1 this witness's 92 bis evidence under the current Rule 92 ter. The
2 different statements have been assigned different exhibit numbers, so
3 these are P2319, P2320 --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: You need to tell me which is which. 2319 is
6 MS. KRAVETZ: Is the first statement dated June 1999.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
8 MS. KRAVETZ: P2320 is the second statement with its addendum of
9 6th March, 2002.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
11 MS. KRAVETZ: P2321 is the transcript of her previous testimony in
12 the Milosevic case.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.
14 MS. KRAVETZ: And there's also an exhibit attached to that
15 transcript which is P51, which is a file from the Mitrovica court relating
16 to the events that this witness describes in her evidence.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: And the corrections on the 6th of March, 2002?
18 MS. KRAVETZ: These are together with the second statement of 20th
19 August, so this is Exhibit 2320.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: And the corrections on the 31st of January, 2002?
21 MS. KRAVETZ: That is Exhibit 2319. The statements have been put
22 together with their respective amendments.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
24 MS. KRAVETZ:
25 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, your written -- your statements and your prior
1 testimony are before this Court. I'm going to ask you some very specific
2 questions on your evidence, and I would like you, if possible, to give me
3 short answers so we can proceed efficiently today.
4 In your statement of 3 -- 3rd June, 1999, you describe how your
5 husband Agim Hajrizi and two members of your family were murdered in your
6 home on the night between 24th and 25th March, 1999. I understand from
7 your statement that your late husband was at the time the chairman of a
8 trade union association, a local trade union association in Mitrovica. Is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was this association working to defend the rights of Albanian
12 workers in Mitrovica?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And would it be correct to say that your husband, Mr. Agim
16 A. Agim --
17 Q. I'm sorry for mispronouncing the name. Agim Hajrizi was quite a
18 prominent figure in the Albanian community in Mitrovica?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. Are you aware of any other activists being murdered around the
21 same date as the murder of your husband -- in -- I'm speaking about the
22 town of Mitrovica?
23 A. Yes -- [In English] May I?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. [Interpretation] On the very same night, that is the night between
1 24th and 25th of March, 1999, another activist was killed, the chairman of
2 the LDK for Mitrovica municipality, Latif Berisha, on the same night when
3 my husband, my son, and my mother-in-law were killed. It was just an
4 hour, I would say, between the two killings.
5 Q. And when did you find out about the killing of Latif Berisha?
6 A. I found out about the killing of Latif Berisha in the morning of
7 25th of March when the local radio in Kosova broadcast the news that two
8 prominent activists from Mitrovica were killed, namely Latif Berisha,
9 chairman of the LDK in Mitrovica; and Agim Hajrizi, chairman of the
10 Independent Kosova Trade Union Assembly and his 60-years-old mother,
11 Nazmija and his 11 and a half-year-old son Ilir. This is the news that
12 was broadcast on local radios and I heard it in the morning.
13 Q. Did both of these killings occur shortly after the beginning of
14 the NATO bombings in the area?
15 A. I have also stated this in my previous statements that as you may
16 know the night of the 24th of March, 1999, was the night when the NATO
17 forces began their bombing campaign against the Serb aggression that was
18 exercised on the Albanian population, and all this pressure on the
19 Albanian population intensified from that night on.
20 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, I'm --
21 A. The pressure exercised on the Albanian population took years. It
22 was old, not from that moment.
23 Q. I want to focus specifically on your first statement, the one on
24 3rd June. You describe in quite some detail the murders of your family
25 members, and I don't want to go into all that detail here. But on page 6
1 of your statement you say that you saw six men arrive to your house
2 dressed in blue camouflage uniforms and wearing black berets on the night
3 of 24 March. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Were you able to recognise any of these men?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who were you able to recognise among these six men?
8 A. I stated with full responsibility in my statement - and I will
9 repeat it today - that on that night there were two vehicles parked in
10 front of my house, they are of dark colour. The two drivers were inside
11 these vehicles, and six persons, Serb paramilitary police members, were in
12 my courtyard. I could recognise two of them Nenad Pavicevic who was my
13 first neighbour, and his friend Dejan [as interpreted]. I didn't know his
14 last name. And two others, Dejan Savic and Ratko Antonijevic were
15 identified by my husband. And the fifth and the sixth, we did not
16 recognise them. We did not know them, neither me nor my husband. The
17 last two names, Ratko and Dejan, have stuck in my mind because my
18 husband's last words were, and I quote: "If anything happens to me,
19 because you know that they are not this by accident, wearing uniforms and
20 heavily armed, they're here to commit a crime."
21 I remember these words, and that's why I'm stating this with full
22 responsibility before you.
23 Q. Mrs. --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: The two -- of the two that you recognised you've
25 given one of them today the name "Dejan." Is that what you meant to say?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The person that I recognised,
2 his name was Boban, and the other one Nenad, while Dejan --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on. It may have been a problem with the
4 translation, but you've now clarified it and we can now move on. Thank
6 MS. KRAVETZ:
7 Q. Mrs. --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, there is one other thing before we move on.
9 In the court in Mitrovica, a person accused there was acquitted called
10 Gligorovski. Is that correct?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His name was Lazar Gligorovski.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, in the first statement you gave about this,
13 the one that Ms. Kravetz is asking you about, you referred to a person
14 called Djordjevski. Is that a different person?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is why I made the
16 correction. Gligorovski should stand for Djordjevski.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
18 Ms. Kravetz.
19 MS. KRAVETZ:
20 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, you just referred to these men as Serb paramilitary
21 policemen. What did you mean by that when you said that they were Serb
22 paramilitary policemen that arrived to your house?
23 A. What I meant was the following. I will explain it to you. For
24 decades in the streets of Mitrovica and in the streets throughout Kosova,
25 we were used to seeing military and police uniforms of the day. And what
1 do I mean with the word of "the day"? Meaning while on duty they were
2 wearing another uniform.
3 Your Honours, if you only saw those paramilitary uniforms that we
4 saw at night, if you only saw members of the paramilitary formation Black
5 Hand, their uniforms, their weapons, their knives, terrible knives, you
6 would be able to understand who these paramilitaries were and what was the
7 difference between the uniforms of the ordinary police and the uniforms of
8 the paramilitaries and the Serbian army.
9 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, I'm going to rephrase the question. You said you
10 identified two of these persons, one of them by the name of Nenad
11 Pavicevic. Did you know if this person was a police officer in
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the second person you identified, that you were able to
15 recognise that night --
16 A. Both of them, both of them. Nenad Pavicevic and his friend Boban,
17 they both were policemen of the Yugoslav police. They were serving in the
18 Yugoslav police. They had police uniforms.
19 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Hajrizi --
20 A. The same is true for the others that I mentioned.
21 Q. Now, out of these four persons, are you aware of whether there
22 were any prosecutions later against these persons in connection with the
23 murder of your husband?
24 A. After I returned from Holland in December 1999, two or three
25 months later there was a hearing at which Lazar Gligorovski was being
1 tried who was imprisoned at that time --
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... for the four persons you
3 mentioned that were --
4 A. Yes, yes. In addition to Lazar Gligorovski, Nenad Pavicevic was
5 being tried in absence. They didn't know anything about his whereabouts.
6 Q. Did you testify in those proceedings?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And are you aware of what was the outcome of -- of that trial, if
9 anyone was convicted as a result of that trial?
10 A. Yes, I do. I do know. Nenad Pavicevic was sentenced to 20 years
11 of imprisonment in absentia.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, this -- the judgement in this case is
14 before Your Honours as Exhibit P51. It's part of this witness's 92 bis
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Before -- yeah, thank you.
17 Before you move on, though, just going back to the previous issue
18 where we were given a description of paramilitary uniforms, the witness
19 then appeared to say that all of these people were members of the regular
20 police force. What is the evidence that you're seeking to lead on this?
21 MS. KRAVETZ: I'm understanding from the witness's testimony that
22 these four -- four of the six -- at least the four persons she was able to
23 identify were regular police officers who -- went into her house, but it
24 also appears that she refers to them as being police -- or paramilitary
1 JUDGE BONOMY: She said that: "Both of them, Pavicevic and his
2 friend Boban were both policemen of the Yugoslav police. They were
3 serving in the Yugoslav police. They had police uniforms. The same is
4 true for the others that I mentioned."
5 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm confused. I don't know who it's being
7 suggested was a paramilitary police officer.
8 MS. KRAVETZ: I can maybe try to clarify this with the witness.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 MS. KRAVETZ:
11 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, you mentioned just a couple of minutes ago that the
12 four persons you were able to recognise were police officers in Mitrovica.
13 Are you stating -- or is it your evidence that these men were also members
14 of a paramilitary group or what you understand to be a paramilitary group,
15 a non-regular armed group?
16 A. Again, I'm stating with full responsibility that these two that I
17 recognised were members or employees of the Serbian police. However,
18 considering the fact that maybe ten times during the day I have seen him
19 with regular police uniform, since he was my neighbour, and on the night
20 of the crime I've seen him with a paramilitary uniform, with that dark
21 blue uniform, a horrifying uniform, it clearly shows that even within
22 the ranks of regular police there were infamous paramilitary groups
24 JUDGE BONOMY: But, Mrs. Hajrizi, we have heard evidence that
25 dark blue camouflage uniforms were worn by the regular police. Are you
1 saying that they were only worn by people you understood to be
3 THE WITNESS: [No verbal response]
4 MS. KRAVETZ:
5 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, you have to speak an answer. The transcript is not
6 going to reflect your answer if you don't speak into the microphone.
7 A. Your Honours, the ordinary police uniform, the uniform of the
8 Yugoslav police consisted of a light blue colour shirt and dark blue
9 trousers. The uniform that was worn by paramilitaries was something
10 different; it was dark blue, camouflage, in dark black patterns, with
11 black berets. And the weapons that the police, the ordinary police of the
12 Yugoslav army carried, was different from the weapons that the
13 paramilitaries carried. I do not recognise all the types of weapons, and
14 I do not want to do that. But you could tell that they were different as
15 for their shape and size.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what you've described earlier was that they
17 were -- I think you referred to carrying knives. Is that ... Are these
18 the different weapons you were referring to?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The paramilitary police that carried
20 out the massive expulsion of the Albanian population from Kosova carried
21 long weapons with knives at the top, and they carried knives on their
23 MS. KRAVETZ:
24 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi --
25 A. [In English] Yes.
1 Q. -- can I ask a question. Are you aware whether these persons you
2 are describing as paramilitaries worked together with the persons you
3 described as regular policemen? If you don't know, you can state so.
4 A. [Interpretation] If you could repeat the question, please.
5 Q. You have described some men as paramilitaries in dark blue
6 camouflage uniform, and you said the regular police wore solid blue
7 uniform. Are you aware of whether these men that you described as
8 paramilitaries, if they worked together or jointly with the men that you
9 described as regular police. And again, if you don't know, you can say
11 A. I don't know about others. As for the two that I recognised and
12 identified, yes, I can say they did.
13 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Well, I should try to help in clarification.
14 MS. KRAVETZ: Okay.
15 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Now, are you trying to -- you know English,
16 please. Are you trying to tell us that some of the people from the police
17 whom you have called as infamous people like Boban they later changed
18 their dress so that they were not -- they were camouflaged or they did not
19 show up themselves and joined this paramilitary group with a black dress
20 for this specific purpose, and not that en masse the police force used to
21 change its dress and become a paramilitary police. It's only a few
22 infamous people in the police who came and joined these type of scare
23 groups. Are you saying this?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 MS. KRAVETZ:
1 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Hajrizi. I would like to move on. I'm not going
2 to explore that subject further because you address the murders of your
3 family members in quite some detail in your statement, so I'd like to move
4 on to your second statement of 20th August, 2001. On page 3 of that
5 statement you say that in the days following the murders you moved to the
6 neighbourhood of Tavnik [Realtime transcript read in error "Travnik"] in
7 Mitrovica. Can you tell me what was the ethnic composition of the Tavnik
8 neighbourhood in Mitrovica?
9 A. It's not Travnik, Tavnik.
10 Q. Yes, I think it's misspelled, it's Tavnik.
11 A. Yes. The population was mainly Albanian.
12 Q. And when you moved there, where were you staying for the days
13 following your -- the murders at your house?
14 A. On the morning of the 25th of May, with the help of my brother, I
15 withdrew from the centre of town and went to the suburbs of the town in
16 the neighbourhood Tavnik, where my parents live. At that time my parents
17 were not there.
18 Q. Mrs. --
19 A. And I spent some days --
20 Q. Yeah, just finish -- you can finish. I'm sorry. You can finish
21 your answer.
22 A. I spent some days in that neighbourhood, and at the Yugoslav
23 police and army orders, we were forced to leave from the Tavnik
24 neighbourhood --
25 Q. You said you were forced to leave the Tavnik neighbourhood. When
1 did that happen?
2 A. We were forced. I repeat, we were forced leave. There were so
3 many killings going on around us. Many houses were set on fire. Many
4 people were taken away and imprisoned. There were so many voices of
5 people that we could hear; that showed us that somebody was forcing these
6 people to leave.
7 Q. I'm going to have to interrupt you again. I was asking for the
8 date when this occurred, that you were forced to leave Tavnik
10 A. This was exactly three days of my husband was killed. It was the
11 28th of March, 1999, when 70.000 inhabitants of Mitrovica and
12 unprecedented violence exercised by the army and police forces were forced
13 to leave their houses without knowing where they were going. They went
14 towards the direction of Zhabar village.
15 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I know I've reached the 30-minute time
16 that I have allocated for this witness. I'll just be another five or
17 seven minutes, if that's okay.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: That wasn't the order we made. You've used a lot
19 of time muddying waters that were otherwise apparently clear. Is it new
20 material that you seek to embark upon or are you simply going to be asking
21 questions that bring a repetition of what's in the statement?
22 MS. KRAVETZ: The questions I was going to put are covered by the
23 statement, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there's no need for you to extend your time.
25 MS. KRAVETZ: Okay. Well, I have no further questions then.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
2 Mr. Zecevic.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, we will proceed in the following order:
4 General Lukic, General Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, Mr. Sainovic,
5 Mr. Milutinovic, General Ojdanic.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Hajrizi. My name is Branko
11 Lukic, and I will have only a few questions for you. In your first
12 statement you talk about August 1998 when someone shouted at you from
13 across the street asking you what were you still doing in Kosovska
14 Mitrovica, after which that person fired a shot at your house, hitting it.
15 That person was subsequently arrested. Isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Your lady neighbour told you that they only asked him why he had
18 used his rifle unless he was ready to carry out his duty. Is that
20 A. I did not understand the question. Could you repeat that, please.
21 I don't think it was clear.
22 Q. Yes, certainly. You say the following: "Three hours later the
23 police arrived and took the perpetrator into custody, but another lady
24 neighbour told me that they only asked him why he had used a rifle" --
25 A. Took what?
1 Q. Why he used his rifle?
2 A. I'm sorry, but the translation -- the interpretation is not good.
3 Sir, I don't understand the interpretation.
4 MR. LUKIC: I'll move on.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, yes. I understood it from the
6 English here. You mean my neighbour Merciba [phoen], who later told me
7 that the Serb police when they were taking Lazar Gligorovski down the
8 steps and beating him, they asked him: "Why did you not carry out your
9 duty when you took this rifle?" And you understand very well, I think,
10 what that means.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. The way I understand it is that he used his rifle improperly by
13 firing at your house. Do you agree with me or is your opinion different?
14 A. I can tell you a different thing. He was ordered to use his rifle
15 to kill people and not hit the house, but because his hand trembled and he
16 could not kill people, that was his problem. But his order -- the order
17 that he received was different.
18 Q. Did you hear any such orders being given to him, to kill people?
19 A. Where can the ordinary people hear about these orders that come
20 from Belgrade? Please. Maybe -- do you think you ever explain these
21 things to ordinary people?
22 Q. Are you trying to tell me that Gligorovski received his orders
23 directly from Belgrade to open fire at people?
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, you know that she's not saying that.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. In the Albanian version page 4, paragraph 1; in the English, page
4 3, paragraph 3; in the B/C/S, page 3, paragraph 4 you say: "The next day
5 a group of former trade union activists, who by that time became members
6 of the KLA, arrived at our house."
7 Do you remember having stated this?
8 A. It's not true, no. Are you talking about the night with Lazar
9 Gligorovski or the night of the crime?
10 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the night of Gligorovski that he is talking
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The night with Gligorovski, what my
14 statement is correct.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you. I wanted to ask you this: Were these members of the
17 same trade union to which your husband belonged to?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What trade union did they belong to?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Where had these people come from?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. How did you know them to be KLA members?
24 A. Of course a husband and wife talk about these things, and I didn't
25 want to know more, who they were, what they were, and from where they
2 Q. Very well. Were they uniformed that evening when they came to
3 your house?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did they carry any weapons that night when they came to your
7 A. I will say this very frankly. Never in my life have I seen a
8 member of the KLA, a soldier of the KLA, in uniform, and I did not see any
9 weapons. About those people, I heard from my husband that they were from
10 the KLA, but I knew them as ordinary people and they were not in uniform.
11 They did not carry weapons.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. And may I -- just one thing.
14 And in my statement, Your Honours, I've explained very clearly
15 that my late husband was never in favour of the use of violence against
16 any nationality, not even the Serb nationality, although there was lots of
17 violence exercised against him during all his life. He didn't want to
18 hurt anyone, and he never hurt anyone.
19 Q. Thank you. After your husband was killed an investigating judge
20 came to the scene. Is that right?
21 A. I did not see this. I was told this by other people.
22 Q. Just a moment, please. I'm trying to cut my cross-examination
23 short, as short as possible.
24 At several places in your statement you mention that it is Nenad
25 that you're afraid of. For example, in the second statement, English
1 version page 5, paragraph 6; Albanian version page 6, paragraph 4; and the
2 B/C/S version, page 5, paragraph 5 you say: "All the time I was afraid
3 that Nenad would find us and that he would kill my son."
4 Are you trying to say that Nenad has some special reasons to take
5 revenge on you or what is this about?
6 A. You've got my statement in front of you and you can read it.
7 Q. Thank you. In your second statement in the English version page
8 6, paragraph 7; in the Albanian version page 7, paragraph 6; in the B/C/S
9 version page 6, paragraph 4, you say that when you were leaving Kosovo, I
10 quote: "We were allowed to cross the border and retain our entire IDs and
12 Was anybody mistreated when the border was being crossed then?
13 A. They took our travel documents -- the travel documents of the
14 people who had them, because myself and my two children did not have time
15 the night of the crime to take anything. So I did not have any ID on me.
16 So they took the IDs of the people who were with us. With regard to the
17 ill treatment en route, I can tell you this, that I have never travelled
18 such a long journey, that that day on 30th of April, 1999, when we got on
19 the special bus -- please, don't interrupt me.
20 [In English] What's happened? May I continue? Yes?
21 [Interpretation] So on the bus there was 16 or 17 or 18 buses
22 prepared by the Serbian army and police to displace, forcibly displace the
23 Albanian population --
24 MR. CEPIC: We haven't got translation on B/C/S. I do apologise
25 if I interrupt the witness, but the problem is with translation.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there a problem with translation? Can the B/C/S
2 booth tell me whether they are effectively translating?
3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour, it should be okay.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: It sounds as though it's okay now. Please carry
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, may I just explain
7 something --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, hold on, please.
9 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I asked the witness about when she
11 left Kosovo, that is to say when she left Kosovo, Serbia, going to
12 Montenegro. Did anyone take their documents or their money or their
13 valuables that time, whether anybody mistreated them. I am not asking
14 about when she left Montenegro going to Albania.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will repeat. I never travelled
16 such a long journey. On the 4th of April, 4th of April, 1999 --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Please stop for the moment. The question you're
18 being asked is about the bus journey which led to you being in Montenegro.
19 Now, your statement says: "We were allowed to cross the border and retain
20 our entire identities and money."
21 Now, is that correct?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the ones who had them.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: And the next question you were being asked was
24 whether anyone was mistreated.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Lukic, no doubt you'll want to follow that
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. In your statement we do not see that you mentioned that anyone had
5 been mistreated.
6 A. You have my statement in front of you and you can see there very
7 well that all the males were told to get off the bus, and they were lined
8 up with the automatic rifles pointed to them. And they were forced to say
9 in Serbian whether they knew Serbian or not. "This is Serbia," and people
10 who did not know how to say that, they were hit. And that happened as
11 well to people who refused to do that. You have it in my statement.
12 Q. Unfortunately I can't find that, but let us move on --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's two paragraphs earlier.
14 MR. LUKIC: What I have in this statement, Your Honour, is:
15 [Interpretation] "The Serb forces that were watching what was going on
16 surrounded the bus station. They did not do us any harm."
17 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the next paragraph after that --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was about Mitrovica --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Please don't interrupt.
20 The next paragraph begins: "Arriving to the border of
21 Montenegro ..." Where it says: "The men were maltreated and
23 MR. LUKIC: Regarding HVK. I'll move on.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
1 Q. Madam, you returned to Kosovo in December 1999. Is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You described three incidents that happened to you and due to
4 which you live in fear. To what part of Kosovska Mitrovica did you
5 return, the northern or the southern part?
6 A. I live in the southern part.
7 Q. In the southern part of Kosovska Mitrovica, are there any Serbs
8 living there?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Can we therefore conclude that these threats and explosive devices
11 that were thrown could -- are not something that could have been done by
12 any Serb?
13 A. You know very well the guards at the bridge who control the two
14 sides of the town of Mitrovica.
15 Q. Is the bridge guarded by KFOR, the international force?
16 A. It was the period immediately after the war.
17 Q. You mentioned that that happened at the 18th of March, 2000. Is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes, but that also is immediately after the war, only a few months
21 JUDGE BONOMY: The incidents you refer to are on the 18th and 19th
22 of March and also one in August, all in the year 2000. The first incident
23 you say were investigated by UNMIK. Now, are you saying that at that
24 stage the bridge between the two sides of Mitrovica was controlled by
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that UNMIK soldiers are
2 at the bridge, Your Honours. However, around-the-clock the Serb guards at
3 the bridge are there, and they patrol as the UNMIK police does.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Do these Serb patrols cross over into southern Mitrovica?
7 A. I have not seen that; therefore, I cannot say anything about that.
8 Q. As the third incident you mentioned the incident with Lazar
9 Gligorovski. Who arrested him, do you know?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Who tried him?
12 A. The chief Prosecutor was an international. He was from Sweden and
13 there was an Albanian judge, Mahmud Halimi. As for the others I don't
14 know. If I'm not mistaken.
15 Q. Do you know where this Lazar Gligorovski worked?
16 A. He was a painter.
17 Q. Lazar Gligorovski is not a Serb, right?
18 A. He was Macedonian, married to a Serb.
19 Q. That's not a crime, right?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No further questions, Your Honour --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely not.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ...
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Zed.
24 MS. ZED: I believe Mr. Cepic will go next.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a change of plan.
1 Mr. Cepic.
2 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour. Last-moment
3 change. Thank you.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Hajrizi, I'm Djuro Cepic, one of the
6 attorneys on the Defence team of Mr. Lazarevic. I'm not going to put many
7 questions, but I would just like to clarify some things here tonight. You
8 were asked by the Prosecutor, and also in your statement you refer to what
9 happened on the morning of the 28th of March, 1999, when the Serb forces
10 entered the neighbourhood of Tavnik. You said the police, some
11 paramilitary units, and some soldiers, and that they started burning
12 houses on one side of the street. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Also, they were talking to people in Albanian. Is that right?
15 A. I didn't say they were talking to people in Albanian.
16 Q. This is your statement of the 20th of August, 2001. The page is
17 number 4 and paragraph 5 of the English translation. Albanian translation
18 page 4, paragraph 8; and B/C/S, page 4, paragraph 2. And in the third
19 line of that paragraph you say: "That is what people were being told in
20 Albanian." That is your very own statement, Madam.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: That is -- that is not what the English says. The
22 word "Albanian" looks wrong in the English version because it says: "The
23 people were told to go to," and then it says "Albanian." Now --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I know
25 exactly what I said in my statement.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: And what did you say? You better repeat it for us
2 to make it absolutely clear.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Go to Albania," and not they talked
4 in Albanian. They said, and I quote: "This is not your country. This is
5 Serbia. Go to Albania."
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I base my questions on
7 the B/C/S version of the statement, and I'm holding a copy in my hands. I
8 believe that it's a mistake in the translation, and even if there is any
9 doubt about this, I can show you my copy of --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't for a minute question, Mr. Cepic, that
11 there was a basis for your question being asked because the English is not
12 clear either. But once you read it a few times you can see, I think, what
13 is meant certainly by the English version. I think the witness has now
14 made the position clear for all of us.
15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. In this B/C/S
16 version the statement was pretty clear.
17 Q. These soldiers -- or rather these members of the police or
18 paramilitary units were at the other end of the street, pretty far away
19 from you. Is that right?
20 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
21 Q. These members of the Serb forces that entered the street were at
22 the other end of the street when you started leaving your house in your
23 brother's car. Isn't that right?
24 A. They were all around us. Please, just a moment.
25 [In English] May I?
1 [Interpretation] I would like for a moment to explain a sequence
2 of the picture that I have in my mind. If you only went through that for
3 just a small moment, you would know exactly how a human being feels in
4 situations like that.
5 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Hajrizi. We have that described in detail in the
6 statements you gave and also in the transcript of your testimony in the
7 Milosevic proceedings. Thank you for this. Now, what am I asking? Were
8 these persons aged between 30 and 40, even perhaps up to 50?
9 A. Are you referring to the police and the army?
10 Q. Yes, those who entered your street. I'm asking about them.
11 A. What do you think? Did I have the strength to see and tell what
12 their age was? That precisely?
13 Q. You were in shock then and you couldn't really see properly, and
14 you were in fear. Isn't that right?
15 A. After everything that I've been through, it is quite normal.
16 Q. At that moment you could not really tell precisely because of the
17 death of your husband, the death of your son, and you were simply trying
18 to keep your other child alive, and you wanted to leave the neighbourhood
19 of Tavnik as soon as possible; right?
20 A. Their fate is registered here in my mind, and I can describe them
22 Q. A few moments ago you told us that you were in a state of shock
23 and that you could not see everything very precisely.
24 A. To be upset, in shock, that's a different thing, but to be
25 unconscious, that is a different thing. Regardless of the pain that I was
1 feeling, I was very conscious and aware.
2 Q. You did not notice that they were wearing bandannas around their
4 A. I was not asked this question, otherwise I would have answered it.
5 Q. I'm just asking you now.
6 A. I already said in the beginning, their faces were painted, they
7 had knives on the top of their rifles. Isn't this enough? Black gloves,
8 terrifying --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the gloves are without
11 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Thank you, Madam. Thank you, Mrs. Hajrizi.
13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. Thank
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Aleksic -- Ms. Zed, sorry, do you have
17 MS. ZED: Your Honour, I may have one or two questions, should I
18 start now?
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you do have questions?
20 MS. ZED: Yes.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's hear what they are then.
22 Cross-examination by Ms. Zed:
23 Q. Hello, Mrs. Hajrizi. My name is Nadia Zed, and I'm representing
24 General Pavkovic here today. And I just have a few very -- very, very
25 brief questions just for clarification. Now, I understand -- and you've
1 stated it today, earlier today, that your husband was a very peaceful man
2 and he did not condone any violence. But given his high position in the
3 community, did he have occasion to meet with KLA members?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And based on your discussions with your late husband and your own
6 experiences, would you agree with me that there was a fairly active KLA
7 presence in your village?
8 A. I don't know, and I did not live in a village. I lived in my
10 Q. Sorry about that. I meant your town.
11 You mentioned in your statement that there were some forces
12 wearing green camouflage uniforms that had their faces covered in green
13 masks. Can you please describe what those masks looked like.
14 A. This was an army, and we were used to seeing the Yugoslav army.
15 But that kind of army we didn't see before that date, 25th of March. You
16 could only see their eyes, nothing else, and this is what I saw while I
17 was holding my son, Arianit, wrapped in a blanket and crossing the street
18 to go and leave the town.
19 Q. And just to clarify, this is different from the regular army that
20 you were used to seeing. Is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 MS. ZED: I have no further questions.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no questions for this
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: No questions for this witness.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk.
5 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Ms. Kravetz, do you have any questions?
7 MS. KRAVETZ: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: What about the references on page 4 of the
9 statement and Mr. Cepic's cross-examination?
10 MS. KRAVETZ: About the neighbourhood of Tavnik?
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's about the police paramilitary and VJ.
12 MS. KRAVETZ: I can try and clarify that with this witness.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: It would be helpful to us if that could be
15 Re-examination by Ms. Kravetz:
16 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, on page 4 of your statement you state that on 28th
17 of March you saw different forces in the neighbourhood of Tavnik and you
18 describe them as consisting of police, paramilitary, and VJ. Can you
19 provide some more detail or any sort of description as to the forces that
20 you saw there, the uniforms, the type of equipment they had, or weapons?
21 A. I told you, Madam, the uniform was different from the regular
22 police. I don't recognise weapons, as I told you, but on top of their
23 guns there were these big knives. And on both sides of their belt there
24 were big knives, which was not a normal thing for normal policemen to
25 carry. And they had painted faces, which shows that this was not the
1 police of a normal state.
2 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, you described -- you first say that you saw police.
3 What do you mean in your statement when you say you saw police in the
4 neighbourhood of Tavnik on 20 -- I'm referring to 28th March.
5 A. Yes, there were policemen as well, policemen in regular uniform,
6 the normal one that we used to see before. So not all of them wore the
7 same uniforms.
8 Q. Now, you have spoken about men in -- that had painted faces and
9 that have knives, I understand, at the end of their weapons. Are these
10 the men that you're referring to in your statement as paramilitaries?
11 A. Yes, yes. The most terrifying people I have ever seen in my life.
12 Q. Then you say that you also saw VJ. What do you mean when you say
13 you saw VJ forces consisting of VJ on the 28th of March?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What do you mean by that when you say you saw the VJ?
16 A. I said it earlier. Not soldiers, not ordinary soldiers that we
17 used to see before. On their heads you could only see their eyeballs,
18 nothing else. And the same kind of gun that -- the knife at the end of
19 it. I don't know what it's called -- as a matter of fact, I don't want to
20 know what it's called.
21 Q. And these people you just described are the ones you referred to
22 in your statement as being VJ members or members of the VJ?
23 A. What do you mean by "VJ" -- yes, yes.
24 Q. You just answered yes. I'm not sure if you were responding to my
25 question. I'm just trying to clarify for the Court. When you say you saw
1 this men wearing masks and with the knife, are you -- is this what you --
2 the type of forces that you referred to as VJ in your statement?
3 A. Madam, the police uniform is blue. The military uniform is green.
4 And then I explained earlier what they looked like.
5 Q. And a final question. You saw all these different type of forces
6 in the neighbourhood of Tavnik on 28th March; is that what you're stating?
7 A. Yes. This was the en masse expulsion of the inhabitants of
8 Mitrovica, about 70.000 of them that were expelled forcibly from the town
9 that day.
10 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Hajrizi.
11 MS. KRAVETZ: I have no further questions for the witness.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 Questioned by the Court:
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mrs. Hajrizi, these questions are about events on
15 the 28th of March, and one of the things you say in your statement
16 is: "In the street where we stayed, they started in one end to burn
17 houses and told people to leave immediately."
18 Now, who was it or which forces was it that did that, started to
19 burn the houses and told people to leave immediately?
20 A. The Serb army and the police, the Serbian police, and the
21 paramilitary police --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, when --
23 A. -- forces.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: When you talk of the Serb army, can you tell us how
25 they were dressed and equipped?
1 A. I said that they had green uniforms, military uniforms, in
2 military colours, but it was not the usual one because they had these
3 things on their heads that you could only see their eyes. And then at the
4 end of the -- their guns, they had those knives, the bayonet, now I know
5 what they're called, and that was not normal before.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mrs. Hajrizi, that brings your evidence to an
9 end. Thank you again for coming again to the Tribunal to give this
10 evidence and for expanding it today. You're now free to leave.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: An application was made to revoke protective
14 measures for a forthcoming witness, K75. There will be a written order
15 issued granting that motion.
16 We'll resume tomorrow at 9.00.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.40 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of
19 September, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.