1 Wednesday, 27 September 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Fikirini? Your next witness.
7 MS. FIKIRINI: Good morning, Your Honours. Our next witness will
8 be Lulzim Vejsa. But before we proceed, the Prosecution would like to
9 request for a change of mode of testimony. The witness was initially
10 earmarked to be a live witness and we would like him to come as 92 ter
11 witness, which was formerly known as 89(F) witness.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, sir.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to
15 tell the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed
16 before you?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: LULZIM VEJSA
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
22 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, this witness --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on a second while I get to grips with the
24 changing situation. Do we have a copy of the statement that will be part
25 of the witness's evidence?
1 MS. FIKIRINI: Yes, Your Honour, we do.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: And is that a statement which is --
3 MS. FIKIRINI: That's the statement --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: -- dated at least of an interview of the 15th and
5 16th of April, 1999?
6 MS. FIKIRINI: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. And what you propose is that you will
8 invite the witness to adopt that statement as an accurate account of
9 events in the course of his evidence?
10 MS. FIKIRINI: Yes, your honour.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's you applying Rule 89(F).
12 MS. FIKIRINI: Yes.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: When you make that application, which will no doubt
14 be in a moment or two, if anyone sees any reason to object to that, no
15 doubt they will alert me; and if no one does, then it will become part of
16 the process in the usual way.
17 So please continue with your examination.
18 Examination by Ms. Fikirini:
19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vejsa. Could you please state your full name,
21 A. Good morning. Lulzim Vejsa.
22 Q. Mr. Vejsa, did you provide a statement to the Office of the
23 Prosecutor on the 15th and 16th of April, 1999, concerning events that you
24 experienced and witnessed in Kosovo in 1999?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And, Mr. Vejsa, did you have an opportunity to review your
2 statement recently?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And from that review, were you satisfied that the contents of this
5 statement accurately reflect, to the best of your knowledge and
6 recollection, the truth about the events that you describe in that
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, I wish to tender this witness's
10 statement as Exhibit P2350.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: I just have a procedural inquiry. Apparently Your
15 Honours have this statement, and I'm wondering how, when the application
16 is just made at this moment, that that statement was provided to you in
17 what was to be a live witness. I thought that matter had been dealt with
18 and they were not to provide you with any statements other than those that
19 were 92 bis, 89(F), whatever. I'm just wondering how that happened.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm trying to work that out myself, Mr. -- ah. I
21 see now something I had overlooked on this.
22 When the application to revoke the protective measures was made,
23 there was a note, "We also propose to change his mode of testimony from
24 viva voce to Rule 92 ter or old Rule 89(F). He will adopt his April 1999
25 ICTY statement for this purpose, and we will lead him briefly on a few
1 matters to expand or clarify."
2 Now, that's the standard practice that is followed where -- but
3 you are right; that, strictly speaking, where there is a change of this
4 nature, it rather pre-empts your opportunity to take exception. I hope,
5 though, when this sort of thing happens you'll trust us to exclude from
6 our minds any material that ultimately is not admitted.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: I fully do, Your Honour. I just remember a little
8 earlier, several days ago where you said that you had instructed the
9 Prosecution not to give you statements unless this situation --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: That's quite right. But I suspect and I'm sure
11 that nothing inappropriate was intended here. And I see no objection to
12 the statement coming from any counsel, so therefore no harm is done. But
13 it's a timely reminder of the procedure to be followed.
14 Carry on, please, Ms. Fikirini.
15 MS. FIKIRINI: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Vejsa, on page 2 of your statement, you describe that on the
17 31st of March, 1999, your wife went to inquire from two Serb women if
18 there was any way you could leave town. My question is: Do you know the
19 name of the first Serb woman your wife visited? If you remember?
20 A. Yes. I do. The first woman -- I remember her name, Hrtsava
22 Q. And do you know where that woman was living?
23 A. Yes. She was living very close to us.
24 Q. Can you approximate the distance from your house to that woman's
1 A. Approximately 15 to 20 metres away from my house.
2 Q. And what did your wife tell you when she came back after visiting
3 this woman?
4 A. My wife told me that this neighbour, this woman, told her, "Don't
5 be frightened. If your husband is not involved with the KLA, don't be
6 afraid. Stay at your home. You don't need to leave." This was all.
7 Q. And you also described in your statement that your wife also went
8 to visit the wife of the chief of the MUP of Gjakova to inquire on the
9 same thing. Did your wife tell you what she was told by that woman, the
10 second Serb woman who is the wife of chief of MUP of Gjakova?
11 A. Yes. The same words as the other woman, and as a matter of fact,
12 she said more convincing words, "Don't be afraid. My husband is in the
13 police. You don't have to be frightened."
14 Q. And how far is your house to this second woman's house, or to the
15 chief of MUP of Gjakova?
16 A. There are three houses between our houses. So probably 20 to 25
17 metres from my house.
18 Q. Prior to this day, the 31st of March, 1999, did you happen to know
19 these two women?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did you also happen to know the chief of the MUP of Gjakova?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know his name?
24 A. Yes. Novak Pitolic.
25 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, at this point I would like to use
1 Exhibit P276.
2 Q. Mr. Vejsa, can you see a photograph which is in front of you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you recognise that photograph? Or can you say anything in
5 relation to the photograph which you're seeing in front of you?
6 A. Yes. This is my house. My house is in this picture.
7 Q. Okay. Using a pen -- can I get usher's assistance, please?
8 Using a pen, would you please indicate on the map where your house
9 is -- on that photograph, sorry.
10 A. Yes, here.
11 Q. Can you mark it as number 1, please.
12 A. [Marks]. Yes.
13 Q. How many houses did you have?
14 A. Two houses. One of them was bigger than the other. The second
15 house is here.
16 Q. And you just told us a few minutes ago that the first Serb woman
17 was living about 20, 15 metres from your house. Can you also show in that
18 photograph where that first Serb woman's house is?
19 A. You cannot see it here in this photograph but it was somewhere
21 Q. Okay. Can you write a proper 3 so that we can know that it goes
22 into that direction and also maybe draw an arrow indicating that the house
23 is in that direction.
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. Okay. And also from this photograph, are you able to see the
1 house which belonged to the second Serb woman or which belonged to the
2 chief of the MUP of the Gjakova?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Vejsa --
5 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, I would like this photograph to be
6 left there for a moment because I will come back to it.
7 Q. Mr. Vejsa, after your wife told you what she was told by these two
8 Serb women, how did you and your family feel?
9 A. We felt much safer.
10 Q. And in your statement, Mr. Vejsa, you describe the events which
11 took place on the 1st and 2nd of April, and you stated that you fled away
12 and come back the next morning. When you came back the next morning, did
13 you go to your house?
14 A. Not to my house, because we saw that it had been burned. And in
15 front of the house there were three Serb policemen.
16 Q. How did you know that there were three Serb policemen? How did
17 you know that those people were police?
18 A. We saw them in front of my house and they were wearing uniforms.
19 Q. When you're saying they were wearing uniform, can you describe
20 what kind of uniform were they wearing?
21 A. Yes. They were wearing police uniforms.
22 Q. And let us now go back to the photograph. Can you mark on the
23 photograph which you have marked earlier where those three policemen were
25 A. [Marks].
1 Q. And do you remember the uniform which they were wearing, if -- I
2 mean the colour and if it has any pattern?
3 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Can you tell the Court, please.
5 A. Yes. It was blue.
6 Q. Solid blue, blue camouflage? What kind of blue?
7 A. No. It was solid, normal, without any camouflage.
8 Q. You saw that your house has been burnt down. You couldn't go
9 there. Where did you go?
10 A. We went to my aunt's house.
11 Q. And where is your aunt's house?
12 A. Here, in between these two houses.
13 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, at this point I will ask if a snapshot
14 of this photograph could be taken and an IC number given to it.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC51, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 MS. FIKIRINI:
19 Q. In your statement, you also described or stated that from what had
20 happened, you and other relatives of yours, joined a convoy which was
21 heading to Albania and on your way you went through two check-points. My
22 question is: When you came across the first check-point, do you remember
23 who was manning that check-point?
24 A. Yes. When we went to the first check-point, there were policemen
1 Q. Are these the -- do you remember what they were wearing?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you describe what was their uniform like?
4 A. Yes. They were wearing police uniforms as well.
5 Q. Are these uniforms the same as those which were worn by the three
6 policemen who were guarding or standing in front of your house?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And at the second check-point, do you remember who was manning
9 this second check-point?
10 A. Yes. The army was there.
11 Q. How did you know that these were army?
12 A. Army forces.
13 Q. How did you know that?
14 A. Because of the uniforms.
15 Q. Yeah. Were these uniforms different from those which you
16 described were worn by the police?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you describe those uniforms, then?
19 A. Yes. These were green uniforms, camouflage uniforms.
20 Q. And from that second check-point, you then crossed into Albania.
21 Do you remember the name of that border crossing?
22 A. I can't remember it for the moment.
23 Q. But you remember crossing into Albania from Kosovo, do you?
24 A. Yes, yes. I think it was called Krume, the first place.
25 Q. Mr. Vejsa, if you won't mind, I will take you back. When you told
1 us that you saw three policemen standing in front of your house, were you
2 able to recognise any of those? Any one of them?
3 A. Yes. The three of them.
4 Q. Yes. Can you tell us, please --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Yeah. Can you give us their names, if you know them by names?
7 A. Yes. One of them was Lubisa, he was a neighbour here; he lived 20
8 metres away. The other one, Novica lives on the other street; he's also
9 20 metres away from where I live. The third one I think was Lubisa's
10 brother, Nenad.
11 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, can we please get back Exhibit P276?
12 With a fresh page, please.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
14 MS. FIKIRINI:
15 Q. Mr. Vejsa, using your pen -- usher, would you please assist?
16 Using the pen, can you please explain or show us where the first policeman
17 you named as Lubisa lived?
18 A. Lubisa. You know, I spoke about the first woman where my wife
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. So it's approximately here where he lived.
22 Q. And where was the second policeman living?
23 A. The second policeman lived on the other street, because here it
24 divides into two streets, somewhere here.
25 Q. And the third one?
1 A. The third one lived together with the first one. They were
2 brothers, Lubisa and Nenad.
3 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, if we can get a snapshot of this and
4 an IC number, please?
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC52, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Vejsa, do you have a job nowadays?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I work now.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: What is it you do?
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, the order will be General Lukic,
15 General Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, General Ojdanic, Mr. Sainovic and
16 Mr. Milutinovic.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
20 Q. Good morning, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I'm one of the
21 attorneys representing Mr. Sreten Lukic relative to this trial. I'm
22 assisted by Branko Lukic and Mr. Ozren Ogrizovic in that task today. I'm
23 going to have to ask you a few questions to clarify and better understand
24 your testimony, so please bear with me and try to listen to my questions
25 so that you can give me the most accurate and concise answers possible.
1 My first question has to deal with something you mentioned at the
2 beginning of your written statement to the Office of the Prosecutor. With
3 the situation in the town of Djakovica prior to the NATO bombings, is it
4 accurate to state that the burning of shops that you describe in the
5 beginning of your statement did not commence until after NATO started
6 bombing Kosovo-Metohija. That is to say, that there were no such
7 incidents before the NATO bombings?
8 A. No. There were no incidents before. These happened the day when
9 the NATO bombing started.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. And with respect to these shops, I just wanted to
11 clarify and make sure I have the correct information. Is it accurate that
12 you did not actually see how these shops were set on fire? Is that
14 A. Yes. That's correct. I did not see but I could see the smoke and
15 the flames because it's approximately 150 metres away from my house and
16 you could see everything.
17 Q. Okay. Now, since we are interested in what's -- in other things
18 that occurred in Djakovica in this trial, I'm going to ask you a couple of
19 questions to try and clarify some background points before we get to the
20 unfortunate incidents relating to your relatives.
21 Now, first of all, I know, and we have your statement and so I
22 know that you state you were never a member of the UCK/KLA, but I want to
23 ask you as a resident of Djakovica if you had occasion to see or hear
24 about the presence of the KLA in Djakovica or the surrounding villages?
25 A. It is true that I was not a member of the KLA, but I had heard
1 about them, that there were such people in the villages and town.
2 Q. Do you recall hearing at any time either in 1998 or 1999 of any
3 attacks carried out by the KLA within the municipality, and that is to say
4 within either Djakovica town or the surrounding villages?
5 A. No. I can't remember.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. And now I'd like to ask you also about the
7 neighbourhood where you lived in the city. First of all, before the NATO
8 bombings started, what were the relations like between you and your
9 Serbian neighbours, if you can answer that?
10 A. Yes. We had very good relations with them.
11 Q. Did those relations change in any way after the NATO bombings
13 A. Yes. These relations changed immediately after that.
14 Q. And could you describe for us, did they change for the better or
15 for the worse or -- any information you can provide about that would be
17 A. Of course for the worse.
18 Q. Okay. And in particular, these three neighbours that you have
19 identified, Lubisa, Lubisa's brother, and I believe the third individual
20 is Novica, in particular, how did the relations change with respect to
22 A. Well, from what I heard, from my first neighbour, he saw these
23 policemen and some others whose names I don't remember. He saw them
24 involved in my particular case, that they were involved in the crime.
25 Q. Prior to that case, prior to that incident, had you had any other
1 bad relations with these families?
2 A. No, never.
3 Q. Okay. And if we could step back to the time-period before the
4 war, I'd like to ask you specifically about these three individuals. Do
5 you know whether they were active policemen before the war, these three
6 individuals, Lubisa, Novica, and Lubisa's brother for whom we don't have a
8 A. They were police reservists. They were mobilised.
9 Q. Do you know approximately when they were mobilised?
10 A. In 1998-1999.
11 Q. Okay. So at some point in time during that time-period; is that
12 correct? You don't know the specific -- you can't give us any more
13 specific of a time-period, can you?
14 A. No, not the month.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, what can you tell me about the NATO air
16 strikes in the Djakovica region? Do you have any personal knowledge or
17 did you hear of any sites within Djakovica municipality that were bombed
18 by the NATO forces?
19 A. For the period I was in Gjakova, that is from the 24th of March
20 when the bombing started and up until 2nd of April, I heard that only the
21 military barracks were bombed.
22 Q. Okay. Did you hear about any civilian casualties resulting from
23 the bombing of the military barracks or any other bombings by NATO in the
24 Djakovica region?
25 A. There were no casualties caused by NATO, victims, I mean.
1 Q. Okay. And after NATO started its bombing campaign in
2 Kosovo-Metohija, is it accurate to state that during that time the
3 electricity in Djakovica was off from time to time? That there were
4 outages of electricity?
5 A. Yes. We had electricity throughout the day, and in the evening at
6 around 7.00 p.m., the electricity would go off until the morning hours.
7 Q. Okay. And when the electricity would go off, how would residents,
8 specifically how would your family, how would lighting be provided in the
9 home dwelling?
10 A. We would stay without electricity, without light. We would use
12 Q. Okay. Now, drawing your attention specifically to the night of
13 April 1st to the morning of April 2nd, 1999, do you recall whether there
14 was an electricity outage in your neighbourhood or in your home on that
16 A. Yes. Just like every other night, the electricity went off
17 at 7.00 p.m.
18 Q. And on the evening of April the 2nd, appears I misspoke, on the
19 evening of April the 2nd, was this also the case?
20 A. On the 2nd of April, I wasn't there in the evening. I was on my
21 way to Albania.
22 Q. Okay. So -- and the critical night when the people came to knock
23 on your door, the electricity was out at that time. Is that accurate?
24 A. Yes. That's correct. There was no electricity.
25 Q. Okay. Were -- was your family using lit candles at that point in
1 time, when the persons came and knocked on the door?
2 A. No. They were sleeping, all of them.
3 Q. Okay. Now, is it accurate that the family members that were
4 staying in the basement -- and we are talking about I believe the basement
5 of the pool hall; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Those family members had been in the basement for a couple of days
8 already by then, sleeping in the basement a couple days. Is that
10 A. During the day, we would stay in the first house, the big one, and
11 during the night, women and children would go to the basement, to sleep.
12 Q. And was that due to the threat posed by NATO bombs?
13 A. No, not by NATO bombs. But the Serb forces were at Cabrat, and we
14 were scared.
15 Q. Okay. Now, if we can focus on the actual time when the -- when
16 this event began at your home. First of all, you state in your statement
17 that men came knocking at the door on the early morning hours of April
18 the 2nd. What I would like to know is at -- at that time I presume it was
19 still dark outside; is that correct?
20 A. Yes. It was still dark outside. It was 12.15, just after
22 Q. Okay. And then these men that came knocking, did they come only
23 to your lot or home, or did they also go to other yards in the
25 A. Before they came to my house, in the same neighbourhood, they
1 started to knock on the doors of two other houses and they started to
2 torch the houses. Later, my brother-in-law came. He woke us up. He came
3 to the big house where we were staying, and he said to us that someone was
4 coming towards our direction and that we had to leave.
5 Two or three minutes later, we heard the shoutings of the police.
6 They were calling on us, and through a window behind the house, we
7 escaped, we jumped a wall after wall and arrived at about 50 metres far
8 from my house.
9 Q. Okay. Now, is it correct that you did not actually see the
10 persons who were calling for you and shouting before going out the window?
11 A. No. Personally I didn't see them. My brother-in-law saw them.
12 Q. Okay. And did he describe the type of uniforms that they were
13 wearing for you to make the distinction that they were Serb policemen and
14 paramilitaries or is that something that you're relying upon his
15 identification for?
16 A. My brother-in-law did not describe their uniforms to me. He just
17 told me that they were torching houses and that they were approaching our
19 Q. Okay. Did you have occasion to recognise anyone's voice of the
20 people that were shouting?
21 A. No. At that moment, we were going outside from the backside of my
22 house. We were escaping.
23 Q. Okay. And with respect to while you were escaping, did you at
24 that time see any of the individuals who were shouting, knocking on doors
25 or torching houses?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. And just so that we are clear, your sister's husband, your
3 brother-in-law that you mentioned, that's Behar that we are talking
4 about. Is that accurate?
5 A. Yes, Behar.
6 Q. Okay. Now, in your -- first of all, that evening -- strike that.
7 The next morning, you state that you were walking home and saw
8 that houses in the district were burned. Am I correct that you did not
9 actually see any of these houses being started on fire at any point in
10 time? That is to say they were already burnt when you saw them that next
12 A. When we returned that morning, the houses were burnt.
13 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like to focus a little bit on these three
14 individuals, these three neighbours that you have described as police
15 reservists. You said that they were wearing uniforms. Could you please
16 tell us whether the uniforms were one piece or whether they were wearing
17 any type of vest over the uniforms?
18 A. They were just wearing a police uniform, the uniform of the
19 reservists. Without the vest, of course.
20 Q. Now, how long did these three individuals stay guarding your
21 house, if you know, that morning?
22 A. I would say I saw them only for three or four minutes that
23 morning, while we were passing by in the column. And one of them, Lubisa,
24 said to me, "You see, Lulzim, what NATO did to us?" And I had no strength
25 to reply to that. I just continued my own journey.
1 Q. Did they -- did these three individuals appear to be inebriated or
2 drunk at the time?
3 A. No, they didn't appear drunk. But at the window of my shop, of
4 the pool hall, while passing through there, I could see bottles of liquor.
5 I could see injections on the ground.
6 Q. When you said you could see injections on the ground, are you
7 talking about syringes?
8 A. Yes, of course.
9 Q. And I take it that you did not store syringes in the -- in the
10 shop prior to this instance; is that correct?
11 A. No. My shop was a pool hall. There I was selling spirits and
12 soft drinks.
13 Q. I think we are in agreement and understanding. I just want to
14 clarify. What I'm saying is that the syringes could not have come from
15 your shop; they had to have been brought there by somebody else. Is that
17 A. Those syringes were used by your police. My shop was not a clinic
18 or something else, if that's what you mean.
19 Q. No, that's exactly the opposite of what I mean. I'm trying to get
20 the same point that I think you've answered. When you say "your police,"
21 are you talking about these three individuals, your neighbours, Lubisa,
22 Novica, and Lubisa's brother, just so we are clear?
23 A. It wasn't only these three that were at my house that night. As I
24 mentioned earlier, my neighbour went on the top floor of his house and he
25 saw that there were more than three persons there. In front of my shop
1 they were drinking, they were taking drugs, and then they entered my house
2 and committed the crime over my family.
3 Q. Okay. Sir, I thank you for your testimony and your time, and I
4 have no further questions.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 Mr. Aleksic.
7 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. We have
8 no questions for this witness. Thank you.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 Mr. Bakrac.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The Lazarevic Defence doesn't have
12 any questions for this witness either.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk.
14 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.
16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, no questions. Thank
18 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 Ms. Fikirini.
21 MS. FIKIRINI: Yes, Your Honour, I have two or three questions.
22 Re-examination by Ms. Fikirini:
23 Q. Mr. Vejsa, when you were coming back the next morning, was your
24 house the only house which was burnt on Millosh Giliq Street?
25 A. No. There were other houses too.
1 Q. And you had been asked about the NATO bombing. Do you know or had
2 you heard about NATO bombing your neighbourhood on that night of the 1st
3 to the 2nd of April?
4 A. No.
5 Q. What about from the 24th of March, when NATO bombing started?
6 A. No. Not in my neighbourhood.
7 MS. FIKIRINI: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Well, Mr. Vejsa, that completes your evidence. Thank you very
10 much for coming to the Tribunal to give that evidence, and you're now free
11 to leave.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.
15 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, the next witness is Mr. Isuf Zhuniqi.
16 And I will swap places with Ms. Fikirini.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Can you help us with the paragraph
18 numbers for this witness?
19 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Zhuniqi is the first of a
20 group of six witnesses which is coming now which addresses the
21 municipality of Orahovac, and he specifically talks about a murder
22 incident in paragraph 75(b) and Schedule B. His evidence is also relevant
23 to paragraph 72(a)(i) and 72(a), as well as paragraphs 25 to 32 and
24 77(a),(b) and (d).
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, while the witness is brought in, may I
2 also inform you that there is one more witness who is going to address
3 this particular murder incident charged in paragraph 75(b) in the
4 indictment and who will testify live. He was scheduled to come this week,
5 but unfortunately due to a family emergency he couldn't come this week, so
6 he will come later and will be led live about this incident.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Is he one of the witnesses on the list for this
9 MS. MOELLER: No, he's not.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
11 MS. MOELLER: This is just meant to explain why we called a
12 92 bis -- formerly a 92 bis (D) witness, who is now a 92 ter witness
13 before we could call the live witness. We would have preferred to do it
14 the other way around. To give you the full story.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Zhuniqi.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to
20 tell the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed
21 before you?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: ISUF ZHUNIQI
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
2 Now, Mr. Zhuniqi, we have before us the written transcript of the
3 evidence you gave to the Tribunal before. And we also have your detailed
4 statement so we know a great deal about the information you're able to
5 give this trial. The purpose of you being here is so that counsel for the
6 parties, for the Prosecution and for the accused, can ask you questions,
7 either to add to the information you've already given, or to clarify it,
8 or in some instances perhaps to challenge it. So it's important that we
9 don't go back over the same evidence as you've already given, except in so
10 far as it is necessary to make the position clear. We are anxious to get
11 as much information as we can, and you can assist that process by
12 concentrating your answers on the particular points that are raised in the
14 The first counsel to question you will be for the Prosecution,
15 Ms. Moeller.
16 Ms. Moeller.
17 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Examination by Ms. Moeller:
19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Zhuniqi.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. Could you please state your name again for the record.
22 A. My name is Isuf Zhuniqi.
23 Q. And where are you from?
24 A. From Orahovac municipality, Bellacerke village.
25 Q. And where did you live in March 1999?
1 A. In the village, in Bellacerke.
2 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, did you give a statement to investigators of this
3 Tribunal on 4 May 1999?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when you gave that statement, were photographs taken of some
6 injuries that you had at the time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And on that occasion were you also taken to a clinic where an
9 X-ray picture of your shoulder was made?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you then sign a declaration on the 31st May 2002 in which you
12 declared that the statement that you gave in May 1999 was true and correct
13 to the best of your knowledge?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. When you came to the Tribunal this week, did you have the
16 opportunity to read through your statement again?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And do you declare today as well that this is the evidence you
19 wish to give to this Court?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, at this point I would wish to tender
22 Exhibit P331 [sic], which is the declaration and the statement; Exhibit
23 P89, which are the photographs showing the injuries; and Exhibit P90 which
24 is the X-ray photo.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 Oh, sorry, Mr. Ackerman?
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, this is highly technical, but I don't
3 think the witness has told the Chamber that the contents of that statement
4 are true and correct. The question was asked is this the evidence you
5 wish to give to the Court. I'm not sure that that satisfies the
6 requirement in that regard.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the rule that's -- I don't know if you have a
8 copy of this rule, but it's a very recently introduced rule as a result of
9 a change in rules a fortnight ago. And what it now requires is that the
10 witness is present in court and attests that the written statement or the
11 transcript, it applies both now to written statements and transcripts,
12 accurately reflects that witness declaration and what the witness would
13 say if examined. And I think that what Ms. Moeller has asked actually
14 satisfies that test.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm looking again, Your Honour, I think it
16 doesn't. The question was: Do you declare today that this is the
17 evidence you wish to give to the Court? That doesn't attest that it's
18 accurate or anything else. It's just the evidence he wants to give you.
19 That's very technical, I understand, but I'm not sure it meets the
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Ms. Moeller do you wants to dot the Is and
22 cross the Ts?
23 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, I can ask the witness differently, if
24 that satisfies Mr. Ackerman and makes him happy, and if you think this is
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the purpose here is not to make
2 Mr. Ackerman happy, even though I enjoy being happy.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Well, I think the wise course to follow here
4 would be to remove any doubt, Ms. Moeller.
5 MS. MOELLER: Yes. Certainly, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, you already confirmed that you read over your
7 statement when you came here this week. Do you still declare today that
8 what you said in the statement of May 1999 is true and correct to the best
9 of your knowledge?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zhuniqi, did you also testify in the trial against
12 Slobodan Milosevic in June 2002?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I would like to tender the transcript
15 of 6 June 2002 of the Milosevic trial, which is Exhibit P2332.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 MS. MOELLER: And on this occasion I would like to point out that
18 in the transcript the Exhibit number for the declaration and statement is
19 not correct. It states it's 331 but the correct number is 2331.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Just -- I've noted the statement now to have the
21 number P331. Is that wrong?
22 MS. MOELLER: No, the correct number is 2331. It got lost in the
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Ah, right. Thank you.
25 MS. MOELLER: Could we please call up Exhibit P93?
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before you do that, you have the same issue
2 in relation to the transcript now, the way the rule is worded. That
3 wasn't an issue before under the old rule.
4 MS. MOELLER: Very well, Your Honour. I will clarify this with
5 the witness. Thank you.
6 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, your testimony in the trial against Slobodan
7 Milosevic on 6 June 2002, is what you said then and there true and correct
8 to the best of your knowledge?
9 A. Yes. It was true and correct.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. MOELLER: Could we now please call up Exhibit 93? And it
12 should be the seventh photo in this bundle. The Exhibit number should
13 be 8872. So it's one further, please.
14 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, can you have a look at this photograph, please? Do
15 you recognise this?
16 A. Yes, yes, I do.
17 Q. What does it show?
18 A. This is a photo of my village.
19 Q. In your statement, you mention that VJ tanks were entering your
20 village on 25 March from Orahovac. Does this picture show the road on
21 which these tanks were coming on?
22 A. Yes, it does.
23 MS. MOELLER: Could the usher please assist the witness?
24 Q. Could you mark this road with an A, please. Could you draw an A
25 on the screen?
1 A. You want me to show you the direction where the tanks came from?
2 Q. Yes. You basically have to write on the screen. You have to put
3 an A where the street is.
4 A. [Marks]. The tanks came from Orahovac and stopped here at the
5 mosque. My house is only 50 metres away from the mosque.
6 Q. Okay. Just to clarify this, what you marked now is the mosque
7 where the tanks arrived; correct? That's what you just said?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And could you see where your house was in relation to the
10 mosque? Could you also mark that?
11 A. Yes. Yes. My house is here.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. MOELLER: Could we take a snapshot of this, please?
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you identify the second mark, what it is? We
15 all know what's meant at the moment but later on, will we be clear?
16 MS. MOELLER: Yes.
17 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, the second mark you made, which is on the right-hand
18 side of the mosque that you previously marked, is what again?
19 A. I will tell you that the 12 tanks were stationed at the mosque
20 because they were only 50 metres from my house.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: The mosque is the one on the left and the house is
22 the one on the right. Is that correct, Mr. Zhuniqi?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, yes we can take that snapshot of that.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC53, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
2 MS. MOELLER: Could we now call up the first photo in the exhibit,
3 Exhibit number 8866?
4 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, do you recognise this river and this bridge?
5 A. Yes. Very well.
6 Q. Can you tell us what the name of this stream is?
7 A. This river and this bridge is called the river of Belaja, the
8 bridge of Belaja.
9 Q. And is this the bridge and the stream that you refer to in your
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you mark again, and if the usher would assist, please, where
13 you were hiding when the incident occurred?
14 A. I was hiding under the bridge. About here.
15 Q. Can you draft a letter A there, please.
16 A. [Marks].
17 Q. Thank you. Can you also show the Court where the policemen were
18 coming from and put a B at these locations, the letter B?
19 A. The policemen were coming from here, on both sides of the stream.
20 Q. Thank you. And can you now explain one thing about your testimony
21 to the Judges? In your statement you say that you were in a group of
22 about 700 villagers who were hiding in the stream. Now, we see on this
23 picture that the bridge is relatively small. Where were all these people
25 A. Behind this bridge, the people were there. This stream continues
1 for kilometres, so we had -- we came here from the stream and when we
2 stopped here on the bridge, the policemen came and stayed there. Part of
3 them were on this side of the bridge and the other part was on that side
4 of the bridge, and when they saw us on the right of the bridge, and --
5 they told us, "Just take off your clothes," and we were left in our
6 underwear, and they kicked and punched us and took everything that they
7 found in our clothes. And they told us, "Now put on your clothes and go
8 to the other side of the stream."
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zhuniqi. Could you mark the two dots on the both
10 sides of the river with a C, please.
11 A. [Marks].
12 Q. And is it correct that you said that at this position the police
13 came to this position?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MS. MOELLER: Can we take a snapshot of this picture, please, Your
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC54, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 MS. MOELLER:
21 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, did you set out in your statement the names of all
22 villagers that you saw being killed in the mass execution at the Belaja
23 stream on this day?
24 A. Yes. They all died. Would you like me to tell you the names?
25 Q. No, thank you. That's not necessary, Mr. Zhuniqi. The Chamber
1 has your statement and can see all the names.
2 I would just like to ask you --
3 A. Yes. They are in my statement and it is true that they all died.
4 Q. And when you came to the Tribunal this week, did you have an
5 opportunity to look at a set of photographs of villagers from Bela Crkva?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. And did you look at each and every of these photos and say whether
8 these were people who were killed in this incident?
9 A. Yes. That's correct. All of them were killed.
10 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, this is Exhibit 94, and due to the
11 time-frame, we would like to tender it on the basis of this evidence.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 MS. MOELLER:
14 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, were you also shown a list of names this week and
15 asked to go through the list of these names and say whether you recognised
16 any of the persons listed therein as not having been killed on 25 March at
17 the Belaja stream?
18 A. All of them were killed on the 25th of March. All of them were
20 Q. Do you recall having gone through this list I'm referring to?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 MS. MOELLER: Can we call up Exhibit 97, please? The next page,
23 please. Can we have the next page? Yes.
24 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, is that the list that we showed to you?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. And what do you say about this list? Is it a correct reflection
2 of the people you saw being killed in the murder event on 25 March?
3 A. Yes, yes. I saw this list, and it's correct.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, we are not tendering this list through
6 this witness because it's part of a larger forensic report that we will
7 tender through another witness. We just thought it would be beneficial to
8 have a local person look through the names that was there.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: And how closely does it match Schedule B?
10 MS. MOELLER: It does match, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry?
12 MS. MOELLER: It does match.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: It does. Thank you.
14 MS. MOELLER:
15 Q. Now, Mr. Zhuniqi, in your statement, and it is on page 3 of the
16 English version, paragraph 2, you state that one of the policemen present
17 there you knew from before. How did you know him?
18 A. I worked -- I had a bus, and I knew that policeman very well.
19 Q. How did you know him? Where did you see him before this event?
20 A. The -- at first, I had a small firm with buses, and I knew him
21 very well.
22 Q. Which route were you driving with your buses?
23 A. The first time I saw him get on the bus, and he maltreated people,
24 he asked for money, and that's where I knew him, where I saw him for the
25 first time. I travelled from Gjakova to Prizren with my bus.
1 Q. And you were driving the bus at that event when this person
2 entered the bus?
3 A. Yes, yes, the driver.
4 Q. And what would this person wear on this occasion? How was he
6 A. The normal police uniform.
7 Q. What was the normal police uniform? What colour?
8 A. The normal police uniform we call it yellow. I call it yellow.
9 Q. Could you -- the colour that you just mention, do you see it in
10 this courtroom? Could you point to this colour? Could you point to
11 something that we could see as well?
12 A. Well, yellow.
13 Q. Is it this colour? And I'm --
14 A. No, no, it's not that colour.
15 MS. MOELLER: If the record could reflect that I'm showing a
16 yellow sticker.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not what I consider
19 MS. MOELLER:
20 Q. So what would you say is the colour of the chairs on which the
21 Judges sit, please?
22 A. It's the upper part of the computer here. That's what I consider
24 Q. That's difficult to follow. Mr. Zhuniqi, could you say what is
25 the colour of the chairs on which the Judges sit? Could you look at
2 A. Yes. That colour. That's what I call yellow. But it was a
3 little lighter.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 A. So the curtains' colour.
6 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, did you find out later the name of this man that you
7 saw in blue uniform when you were driving your bus and that you later saw
8 at the stream in Bela Crkva?
9 A. Yes, blue.
10 Q. Sorry, I think there was a misunderstanding. Did you find out the
11 name of the person we were talking about later?
12 A. Yes. Nenad Matic.
13 Q. Thank you. And you saw him in the group of the policemen who were
14 at the Belaja stream shooting at the villagers?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 Mr. Zhuniqi, in your statement, you say that you only found out
18 when you were taken to the clinic when you gave your statement that you
19 had a bullet lodged in your shoulder.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you receive this bullet when the policemen shot at you at the
22 Belaja stream?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is this bullet today still in your shoulder?
25 A. Yes, it is still in my shoulder.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zhuniqi.
2 MS. MOELLER: That would complete my questions, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Ms. Moeller.
4 Mr. O'Sullivan, the order?
5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, General Ojdanic, General Pavkovic,
6 Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Milutinovic, General Lukic and General Lazarevic.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. We'll take the break now.
8 Mr. Zhuniqi, we have to have a break now for half an hour, so if
9 you could leave the courtroom you'll be shown where to go, and we'll see
10 you again at 11.00.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: So the Court will resume in half an hour, at 11.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Welcome back, Mr. Zhuniqi.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: You will now be questioned by counsel representing
19 the various accused. The first of these will be Mr. Visnjic.
20 MR. VISNJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Zhuniqi. My name is Tomislav
23 Visnjic and I represent General Ojdanic. I have a few questions for you,
24 and on several occasions I will ask of you some clarifications of your
25 previous statement.
1 In your statement you stated that on the 25th of March,
2 around 3.30, you were awakened by a loud noise coming from outside and
3 then you saw 12 green tanks of the VJ came from the direction of Orahovac
4 and stopped by the mosque. Later you gathered all the members of your
5 immediate family and led them out of the house. Before I ask you any
6 questions, I would kindly ask you to look at P93, page 10. It is a
7 photograph, an aerial shot of your village.
8 My first question is: How long did it take you to get from your
9 house to the meadow to which you said you took your family members?
10 A. When I saw 12 tanks and came out of my house, when I saw these 12
11 tanks by the mosque, it took me 15 minutes to leave my house because I
12 could see the fire in the village. The village was on fire.
13 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, on this photograph, can you indicate the spot where
14 you and your family took refuge at around 3.30 or 4.00 on that day?
15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, so as not to have any
16 confusion, this is an aerial shot taken from a different angle.
17 Therefore, the witness's house is close to the mosque, somewhere within
18 the triangle, but I hope the witness will get his bearings.
19 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, can you see the mosque here? It should be around the
20 centre of the photograph.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us where you took your family?
23 A. I my family -- well, at 50 metres from there is my house. I left
24 the house, I saw the 12 tanks, and I went through here to the stream. You
25 can see the stream here.
1 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, can you indicate the spot where you and your family
2 stayed for a while before going back to your house?
3 A. When the tanks came, as I said, I left the house and through the
4 houses in my neighbourhood I went to the stream, sir.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: We can't see what you're pointing out unless you
6 actually draw it on to the screen, and I think you've marked so far the
7 mosque and your house. Now, can you put another mark where you actually
8 went to in the meadow?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to the meadow through here,
10 through here, and I reached the Belaja stream.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
12 Mr. Visnjic.
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, let us try to clarify this. In your statement of
15 the 4th of May, 1999, you stated that you were awakened by the noise of
16 the tanks and that you took your family out --
17 A. On the 4th of May --
18 Q. Just a moment, let me finish, please. You said that you took your
19 family out of the house and that you hid in a place next to the village.
20 Just a minute. It was in a field nearby, that there were about 200 people
21 there and that after that, you again returned to your house. Is that
23 A. Please, I didn't understand the date you were referring to.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, the date is the 25th of March and not
25 the 4th of May.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not on the 4th of May, what
2 you're describing.
3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I said that he gave
4 the statement on the 4th of May. What took place there was on the 25th of
5 March. That is not in dispute.
6 Q. Can we agree on that, that the incident took place on the 25th of
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you give your statement on the 4th of May, 1999?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you in that statement state that you left the house, and once
12 the tanks left the village, you returned to your house again,
14 A. This is a different question. When the 12 tanks came, they passed
15 through the village, they came at the outskirts of the village, and then
16 returned again in the village. I went back to my house for 15 minutes
17 only. After these 15 minutes, gunshots were coming from all sides of the
18 village and then I went through the path that I marked and reached the
20 Q. Very well. My question was: Where did you go the first time you
21 left the house?
22 A. After the tanks returned, I went to the Belaja stream and to the
23 railway bridge here.
24 Q. No, no. My question is: Once you left your house for the first
25 time, as you mention in your statement, where did you go? To what field?
1 Let us not get to the stream as yet. But once you left the house after
2 having seen the tanks.
3 A. My house is here. I went here, and I took shelter there just
4 while the tanks went to another village but they didn't go anywhere
5 actually. They returned.
6 So I went to this location here, stayed there for 15 minutes, and
7 returned to my house. When I saw that the village was on fire, I fled
8 again, here.
9 Q. Can you mark the spot where you were and put the letter A there.
10 A. [Marks].
11 Q. Very well. You say that there was a column of tanks; is that
13 A. I said I saw 12 tanks.
14 Q. Were there any other vehicles that accompanied the tanks?
15 A. No. I didn't see any other vehicle.
16 Q. In what direction did the tanks leave?
17 A. In the direction of Celine village.
18 Q. When did you see the tanks return to your village?
19 A. On the second time, I didn't see them go to any direction. I saw
20 them going to the direction of Celine village the first time.
21 Q. When did you see the tanks the second time?
22 A. I didn't see the tanks the second time. I went to the stream. I
23 was wounded there, and I could no longer see anything. I then went to Zuc
25 Q. After the tanks returned, how long did it take you to go back to
1 your house? No, I apologise. I will rephrase.
2 Once the tanks left, how long did it take you to go back to your
3 house? Can you give us an estimate?
4 A. It wasn't very far from my house. It took me 10, 15 minutes to
5 get from that location back to my house.
6 Q. And at that moment, you didn't see any forces, be it the police or
7 the military or any other unit in the village; is that correct?
8 A. No. At that moment, I didn't see anything, because I fled the
9 village, as I said. I went outside the village.
10 Q. Let us move on, then. Tell me this: As you were leaving the
11 village the second time, across the field, as you marked it on the map and
12 en route to the bridge, none of your family members, or anyone else for
13 that matter, was hit from a firearm in that interval of time; is that
15 A. I was the only one from my immediate family to be hit by a
16 firearm. And as for more distant relatives, 18 of my distant cousins were
18 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, as of the moment when you left your house and up
19 until you reached the bridge where you hid, during that time, do you know
20 whether anyone was wounded?
21 A. No.
22 Q. But you said there was firing?
23 A. Yes. There was firing.
24 Q. Having reached the bridge, I just wanted to clarify what seems to
25 be a discrepancy in your statement, in the Milosevic transcript, on
1 page 6451, you said you were not under the bridge but, rather, in an
2 irrigation channel. Is that correct?
3 A. That is correct. The irrigation canal is annexed to the stream.
4 Q. So you were not hiding under the bridge, as you indicated on this
5 photograph today, but rather, you were in an irrigation canal. Am I
7 A. You can see it very well here that next to the bridge is the
9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before we show the next
10 photograph, could we assign a number, an IC number, to this photograph?
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Before we do that, Mr. Visnjic, I'm not clear on
12 the mark at the top of the photograph. Is that supposed to be the bridge?
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] If I understood the witness -- well,
14 I can ask him again.
15 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, the last red dot you marked on this photograph, is
16 this where the bridge over the Belaja stream is?
17 A. Yes. The first dot is on this side of the bridge, and the second
18 is on the other side of the bridge.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. So we can take a --
20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honour, for the
21 transcript, these are the two dots on the photograph towards the upper
22 part of it.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: So we can take a snapshot now of this.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC55, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I may have missed something, but as regards this exhibit, could we
3 again please have page 2, this being a set of photographs. So page --
4 Mr. Zhuniqi, can you see the irrigation canal on this photograph,
5 the one you mentioned?
6 A. Yes. You can see it very well. It is below the bridge, this
7 irrigation canal. This is a canal.
8 Q. Can you mark the spot where you hid on this photograph?
9 A. [Marks].
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there some significance in the exact place at
11 which one of 700 people actually was? I'd like to know if there is a
12 real -- if there's an important issue here that we can focus our minds
13 on. Bearing in mind I think he said there were 700 people there.
14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I agree, but my next question is
15 what I was trying to get to with this witness.
16 Q. Were there any caves used as shelters close to this bridge,
17 Mr. Zhuniqi?
18 A. No.
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the basis for this
20 question is 3D122, page 0075530, which is a statement of another person.
21 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi --
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we give this photograph a
23 number and then I can move on.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC56, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, did you know that the KLA arrived at Bela Crvka and
3 armed the villagers so that the villagers could defend the village against
4 the Serbs?
5 A. There was no KLA at Bellacerke and they did not arm the villagers.
6 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, did you know that there was civilian protection in
7 the village which in true fact represented an armed unit of the KLA?
8 A. No. That's not true.
9 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, did you know that members of the civilian protection
10 left their houses armed and they took the same direction towards the
11 bridge and the Belaja stream just prior to the arrival of the Serbian
13 A. No. Nobody was armed. We were farmers, women, children. All of
14 them who left the houses and went to the stream were civilians.
15 Q. And you didn't see anyone carrying a weapon among the group of
16 people who were hiding close to the bridge?
17 A. I didn't see a single person with a weapon. Nobody had a weapon.
18 And I'm completely aware of that.
19 Q. Do you know Popaj Nesret, Mr. Zhuniqi?
20 A. I know him as a villager, as a co-villager.
21 Q. Just to steer clear of any confusion, was he born around 1963?
22 Therefore, he could be around 40 years of age today?
23 A. I don't know. I don't know his age. There are many Nesrets. I
24 know one of them, but it was of no interest to me to know his birth date.
25 Q. The Nesret you know, is his first name Popaj?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Is his last name
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did you know, Mr. Zhuniqi, that Popaj Nesret stated that he was a
6 member of the civilian protection and that armed with a rifle he also
7 headed towards the Belaja stream on the same day at the same time, when
8 you and the other people headed the same way?
9 A. That is not true. I didn't see Nesret and I didn't see him
10 carrying any weapon.
11 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, did you know that at this locality, close to the
12 river between Bela Crkva and Xerxe some KLA members were seen as early
13 as the 1st of March, 1999?
14 A. I told you earlier that in Bellacerke I did not see any KLA, and
15 there was no KLA.
16 Q. And was there any KLA presence in Celine?
17 A. I did not see any in the Celine village. I was wounded.
18 Q. And do you know that before you were wounded, members of the KLA
19 held positions near the village of Celine on the 25th of March, 1999?
20 A. I told you that I did not see any in Celine.
21 Q. Did you hear about that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. Mr. Zhuniqi, you said in your statement that before
24 the attack started, nothing meaningful was going on in your village. Now
25 I would like to ask you about the following. Do you know that on the 21st
1 of January, 1999, in an ambush near Bela Crvka, a KLA fighter was killed
2 and that his funeral in the village of Labucevo was attended by about
3 2.000 civilians and 700 KLA fighters?
4 A. I don't remember this. I don't know anything about it.
5 Q. Since this is a large number of people, Mr. Zhuniqi, didn't some
6 of these people take your bus to attend the funeral?
7 A. My bus did the route Gjakova-Prizren, and I was not interested in
8 those matters.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: What was the name of the -- Mr. Visnjic, what was
10 the name of the village where the funeral was.
11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Labucevo. Labucevo. 3D114.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zhuniqi, how far is Labucevo from Bellacerke?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Over 30 kilometres.
14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, do you know that on the 27th of February, 1999, a
16 Serb was abducted near the village of Velika Krusa after which there was
17 an exchange of gunfire between the KLA and the Serbs, due to which 400 to
18 600 people fled to Bela Crkva to stay with their relatives?
19 A. I don't know about this. I haven't heard about it.
20 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, were you in the village during that period or,
21 rather, at that time, on the 27th of February, 1999?
22 A. I can't remember. I was driving the bus. I was paying attention
23 to my business. I did not pay attention to those matters. Other people
24 did maybe, but I had my own business.
25 Q. All right. Is it correct, Mr. Zhuniqi, that on the 18th or the
1 19th of March the police took up a strategic position at a place called
2 Brdo near Bela Crkva?
3 A. Yes. That's correct.
4 Q. And is it correct that before the beginning of the war, some of
5 the villagers left the village and went to safer places, say Rogovo?
6 A. I don't know about this. I was minding my own business. I stayed
7 at home.
8 Q. All right, Mr. Zhuniqi. As you were minding your own business and
9 as you do not know anything about any of this, how come you know, and how
10 can you be sure, that some persons were not members of the KLA?
11 A. But I didn't see any KLA, so how can I say that there were KLA in
12 Bellacerke? There weren't.
13 Q. Tell me, these persons, Fatos Ekrem Zhuniqi, Kasim Sejdin Zhuniqi
14 and Eshtref Zhuniqi, are they from your village?
15 A. Yes, and they are my relatives.
16 Q. Well, do you know that they are declared KLA members?
17 A. I don't know that they were members of the KLA.
18 Q. And do you know -- Mr. Zhuniqi --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: If you're leaving that subject, what do you mean by
20 do you know that they are declared KLA members?
21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Well, I can ask the witness, Your
23 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. That was your question: Do you know that
25 they are declared KLA members? What does that mean? Where did you get
1 the word "declared" from?
2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, they are mentioned in
3 the book Feniksi i Lirise, that is the Phoenix of Freedom. And the
4 investigator of the OTP put questions to the witness and that is what was
5 disclosed to us in the 68 disclosure material.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 Mr. Zhuniqi, you were given the names of three people. You said
8 that they were your relatives or -- were your relatives. Did they live in
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
12 Mr. Visnjic.
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, is it your assertion that you know that they were not
15 members of the KLA or that you do not know, or is it your statement that
16 they were never members of the KLA?
17 A. I said I don't know.
18 Q. However, when you talked to an investigator of the OTP, you said
19 to him that it is your assertion that they were not members of the KLA.
20 Have you changed your position now?
21 A. I said I don't know.
22 Q. All right, Mr. Zhuniqi. Finally, let me ask you about a topic
23 that we can deal with in several ways but I'll put it to you very simply:
24 Today, seven years later, and after everything that you knew then and that
25 you learned subsequently, is it your assertion that aircraft of the army
1 of Yugoslavia bombed Nogavac at the beginning of April 1999 and that the
2 aircraft involved were MiGs?
3 A. At that time I said this and I'm saying this again today. They
4 were Yugoslav aircraft.
5 Q. That's what you said in 1999, when you gave your statement to the
6 OSCE. That's what you said at the Milosevic trial. And that is your
7 assertion today, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zhuniqi.
10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No further questions.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:
12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Zhuniqi. I have very little to ask you.
13 Mr. Visnjic, when he was talking to you mentioned a book
14 Feniksi i Lirise. I probably pronounced that horribly. But in any event,
15 that is a book that was discussed with you by an investigator of this
16 Tribunal on the 29th of June. Do you remember that interview you had with
17 Ljubomir Josefcuk [phoen] on that date?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And were you shown that book? Did you ever see that book?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know who wrote the book?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. It was written in your language, in the Albanian language, wasn't
25 A. Yes. It is written in my language, but I didn't pay attention.
1 Q. And so it's certainly likely that it was written by an Albanian;
2 correct? If you don't know, you can just say you don't know. It's okay.
3 A. No. I don't know.
4 Q. All right. You also told Mr. Visnjic that even today you are
5 certain that the aircraft that bombed Nogavac were Serbian aircraft. Did
6 you actually see those aircraft? You didn't, did you?
7 A. I saw them myself, and when I returned from Albania I saw parts of
8 the bombs and they had Cyrillic letters on them.
9 Q. Well, you didn't see any bombs at Nogavac on the day they dropped.
10 Where did you see them after you returned from Albania?
11 A. No. That day I saw only the bombing. That day I was heavily
12 wounded. So I couldn't see that. But when I returned from Albania, as I
13 told you, I saw the parts of the bombs and they had the Cyrillic letters.
14 Q. Where did you see parts of the bombs that had Cyrillic letters?
15 A. In the village Nagavc.
16 Q. Someone showed them to you?
17 A. Yes. Somebody showed them to me but I saw them myself when I was
19 Q. After you came back from Albania, not when the actual bombing
20 occurred, right?
21 A. At the time of the bombing, I only heard the bombing. I was
22 heavily wounded.
23 Q. I understand that. All I'm trying to establish is the only time
24 you saw these bombs which had Cyrillic writing on them was after you had
25 come back from Albania?
1 MS. MOELLER: Objection, Your Honour. This has been asked and
2 answered. He said, "I couldn't see that."
3 JUDGE BONOMY: I agree it's been answered already.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm satisfied if everyone believes that. I have no
5 more questions.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one question from me, Mr. Ackerman. The date
7 you gave was the 29th of June. What year?
8 MR. ACKERMAN: 2005. That's what the notes say. I don't have any
9 personal knowledge of it.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: No, indeed. Thank you.
11 Mr. Fila.
12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Zhuniqi. I'm Branko Lukic,
17 and together with my colleagues, Mr. Ivetic and Mr. Ogrizovic, I am
18 Defence counsel for General Lukic before this Tribunal.
19 I shall briefly go back to the book, the Phoenix of Freedom since
20 you made some comments with regard to the book. Obviously it had been
21 showed to you. Is it correct that you saw that the signatories of this
22 book --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is it correct?
25 JUDGE BONOMY: We haven't got translation of the question. Could
1 you reput the question, please, Mr. Lukic.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Lukic didn't finish putting his question,
3 interpreter's note. He was interrupted by the witness.
4 MR. LUKIC: I haven't finished my question yet.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Is it correct that the saw that the signatories
6 of this book are Agim Ceku, Hasim Thaqi, Jakup Krasniqi, Adem Demaci,
7 Rifat Jashari, Fatmir Limaj, a total of 18 signatories? Was that shown to
8 you, that these were the signatories of this book?
9 A. I was not interested in that, only when the investigator showed
10 that to me. He showed me the photographs and nothing else. He didn't
11 show me the signatures or what you're telling me now. I was not
12 interested in those.
13 Q. Thank you. The trouble started when the NATO bombing started in
14 your area, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Up until then, you went about carrying out your own business, that
17 is to say driving buses, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All the way up to the second half of March or even the end of
20 March, there weren't any Serb forces in your area, right?
21 A. No, there weren't. Life was normal.
22 Q. Do you know, or rather, did you know at the time, the policemen in
23 the Orahovac police station?
24 A. Only one.
25 Q. You said about your own village, and Celine, that you did not know
1 about any KLA presence there. Did you perhaps hear of them being present
2 in other villages like Velika and Mala Krusa, Nogavac, Mala Hoca?
3 A. I did not hear anything about that.
4 Q. Thank you. When you describe an incident which is in English
5 paragraph 3, paragraph 2, and in the B/C/S, 3, paragraph 1, you say that
6 you saw a squad of 16 policemen moving towards you. Do you remember that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember that you made a statement to the representatives
9 of the OSCE?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you remember that in that statement, you refer to the members
12 of these forces as members of paramilitary forces?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember that this Nenad that we identified today as Nenad
15 Matic is a person you also described as a member of the paramilitary
17 A. I saw him at the massacre in Bellacerke. What he did before, I
18 saw him in police uniform, and maybe they changed their uniforms.
19 Q. My question was whether you remember that when you spoke to the
20 representatives of the OSCE you described this particular person as
21 someone who was a former employee of the wine cellar, vinarija, and that
22 he was a member of the paramilitary forces?
23 A. I saw him at the traffic. I saw him at the wine cellar. And I
24 also saw him at the massacre.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, where is the reference to the name
2 MR. LUKIC: Just a second, Your Honour. It's English version, I
3 have it here, page 3, paragraph 2.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: His name is in that paragraph, is it?
5 MR. LUKIC: Should be. And also it's mentioned today in the
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, that must be where it comes from. Thank you.
8 MS. MOELLER: If I may assist, he also referred to this name in
9 his testimony in the transcript of Milosevic trial, which was also
10 tendered today.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC:
13 Q. [Interpretation] You say about this group of armed people that
14 they were wearing greenish-blue uniforms. Over these greenish-blue
15 uniforms, did they have some kind of vests?
16 A. No, they didn't. Just camouflage uniforms, helmets, and they had
17 white ribbons on their arms.
18 Q. Could you tell us where those white ribbons were? Can you show on
20 A. On their arm. [Indicates].
21 Q. So around their upper arm, right?
22 A. Yes, here, on their arms. It's simple.
23 Q. You also said that they had long knives, about 30 centimetres
24 long, right?
25 A. Yes. That's correct.
1 Q. Did you ever see a policeman with a knife like that?
2 A. Where do you mean? On the street or in a fighting or --
3 Q. Either in the street or in battle? Did you ever see a policeman
4 with that kind of knife?
5 A. On the street, I did not see any with knives, but what I told you
6 here was about the bridge of Belaja.
7 Q. You did your military service in the infantry, so I assume that
8 you will be able to help now. When you say that this group of policemen
9 walked up to you, how were they moving? In a column, in two columns?
10 Were they running? Were they -- what position did they take? Could you
11 tell us?
12 A. I saw the other part of the stream. I saw the two sides of the
13 stream. I only saw them when they came five to ten metres close to us.
14 Q. How many types of uniforms did you see at that moment? What would
15 the smallest number be?
16 A. At that moment, the 16 policemen that I saw wore the same uniform.
17 Q. So it is not correct that in that group of people you saw at least
18 two types of uniforms?
19 A. I didn't say that. It was one uniform. The 16 policemen that I
20 saw were wearing the same uniform.
21 Q. Thank you. What kind of uniform was it? Could you describe it
22 for us a bit, this uniform that they all wore?
23 A. I already said that their uniform was multi-coloured uniform.
24 Q. What did these policemen wear on their heads? Could you please
25 tell me?
1 A. They were wearing helmets.
2 Q. Did they have some kind of bandanas on their heads?
3 A. No, only helmets.
4 Q. I know that you have a problem with colours but could you tell us
5 what the colour of those uniforms was, please?
6 A. It's not that I don't want to describe the colour. All I can say
7 that they were multi-coloured uniforms. There is nothing else that I can
9 Q. Very well. Thank you. You also describe one of the troops as
10 somebody having stars on his shoulders, which denoted his rank. Is that
12 A. Only the person who was commanding them had three or four stars.
13 Q. Apart from the stars, were there any pieces of cloth, some sort of
14 ribbons, which could have constituted his rank as well, or denoted his
16 A. No. I only saw three or four stars.
17 Q. Thank you. The person who addressed you spoke in Albanian. Is
18 that so?
19 A. In Albanian.
20 Q. During the time he was addressing you, he spoke Albanian
21 throughout; is that correct?
22 A. No. He only said a few words in Albanian, and then he spoke in
24 Q. When he spoke Serbian, could you detect his accent? Would you say
25 he was from Kosovo or not?
1 A. No. I couldn't tell from his accent where he was from.
2 Q. Thank you. I wanted to ask you about some names and to see
3 whether you know them and whether any of those people were inhabitants of
4 your village. Mehmet Popaj?
5 A. Yes. He's an inhabitant from my village.
6 Q. Nisim Popaj?
7 A. Yes, yes. He lives in my village.
8 Q. Sahit Popaj?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Shendet Popaj?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I didn't follow closely and I don't know whether you were asked
13 this by Mr. Visnjic, but how about Estref Zhuniqi?
14 I am being told that, yes, indeed, he asked you about these people
15 so I will stop with the names here.
16 Were you shown whether these people --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on.
18 MS. MOELLER: I'm sorry to interrupt, can we just for the record,
19 I see the two names for the Popajs are not spelled on the transcript.
20 Could we clarify that, please?
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well we've got Shendet Popaj, I think, and also
22 Sahit Popaj.
23 Could you clarify the spelling of these names, Mr. Lukic?
24 MR. LUKIC: I can repeat it because I can't see it anymore, and I
25 can clarify it with the court reporter if you want.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: No. What was the name you were giving to the
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All the people's last names are Popaj
4 and their first names are --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the third and fourth ones we need the first
6 names of.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The first one is Mehmet.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: The next one is Nisim, but what are the third and
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There's Nisim, Sahit, Shendet, with
11 an S-h.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Zhuniqi, these four persons with the name
15 Popaj, are they all still alive?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are all dead.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: All dead. Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zhuniqi.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no more questions
21 for this witness.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 Mr. Fila.
24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, I've already asked you that question.
3 Sorry, it's my mistake. I've lost track of this. You're not normally so
4 far down. Okay.
5 MR. LUKIC: Because my learned friend from the opposite helped us
6 with the -- these missed names, and my question wasn't entered until the
7 end, and it's not clear why I asked these questions at all. So if I can
8 only finish and if the witness can answer it; if he cannot, that's okay.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: On you go then.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Let us try and clarify this, Mr. Zhuniqi. In the book, Phoenix is
12 the Freedom, were you shown in that book that these four people were
13 listed there as the fallen fighters or the heroes of the KLA?
14 A. I saw the book when the Tribunal showed it to me. As I said, I
15 didn't know that they were KLA members.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you yet again, Mr. Zhuniqi.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.
18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. No questions
19 for this witness.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Ms. Moeller,
21 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, thank you, according to our
22 calculation, I have three minutes left and I would like to put two or
23 three more questions.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.
25 Re-examination by Ms. Moeller:
1 Q. Mr. Zhuniqi, did you ever see the book Feniksi i Lirise before
2 were you shown it in June 2005 by the ICTY investigator?
3 A. Only when I was shown it by the OTP of this Tribunal, and I never
4 saw it again.
5 Q. And when you were answering the questions of the investigator
6 about Fatos Ekrem Zhuniqi, Kasim Sejdin Zhuniqi and Eshtref Zhuniqi of not
7 being members of the UCK, did you do so to the best of your knowledge?
8 A. Yes. To the best of my knowledge. I didn't believe that they
9 were members of the KLA, and I didn't know if they were members of the KLA
10 or not.
11 Q. And did you on this occasion, when talking to the investigator
12 about this book, refer to your brother Avni, who you already mentioned in
13 your statement?
14 A. Yes. My brother Avni was KLA, and we didn't see each other for 12
16 Q. And you volunteered this information to the investigator in 2005,
17 again, which you had already put in your statement; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. My last question would be: Do you know what is the distance
20 between Krusha e Mahde, Velika Krusa and Bela Crvka, approximately?
21 A. 10 kilometres.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. MOELLER: That completes my questions, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
25 Mr. Zhuniqi, that completes your evidence. Thank you for coming
1 again to the Tribunal to give it, and to provide additional information.
2 You're now free to leave.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.
6 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, before I call the next witness, I would
7 also wish to tender two exhibits from the bar table, which are to some
8 extent related to this witness's testimony. It's Exhibit P2334 and P2335.
9 This is a request for assistance that the Office of the Prosecutor sent to
10 Serbia and Montenegro and a response that we received in regard to this,
11 and it contains some information regarding a person that was named by this
12 witness today, Nenad Matic.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, can we see the documents, please?
14 MS. MOELLER: Can we call up Exhibit P334, please?
15 JUDGE BONOMY: I think 2334.
16 MS. MOELLER: 2334, sorry. And can we scroll down, please? It
17 would be the third page, I think.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: So let's see now 2335. Is that 2335?
19 MS. MOELLER: No. This is still -- the page I would like to show
20 you is, it says at the top, 005, and that the Exhibit number is K0530291.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: So can we see the reply now, please?
22 MS. MOELLER: The reply is P2335.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Is there an English version?
24 MS. MOELLER: Yes, there is an English version, and the B/C/S
25 original attached thereto, in the same exhibit.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we have this in English? Can we have it in
2 English, please?
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, this appears to be the wrong one.
4 This is Kosovo Mitrovica.
5 MS. MOELLER: I'm sorry, I don't -- yes, that's not the correct
6 page. And could we go into the English version, which is the first page.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you not have hard copies of this that we could
8 speed this process up with?
9 MS. MOELLER: Yes, I do, Your Honour.
10 Court officer, I'm informed, is printing them out right now.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the problem is we can't see them so we
12 don't know whether to object or not.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: You hopefully will see them shortly on the e-court.
14 Well, I'm certainly none the wiser because mine is in Serbian. Thank you.
15 MS. MOELLER: I'm informed by my case manager that we released
16 these documents to the Defence as soon as we filed the notification for
17 this witness. In the English version it is -- in the response it is ICTY
18 request 1105.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: And you're only interested in the name Nenad Matic,
20 are you?
21 MS. MOELLER: Yes. At this point we are particularly interested
22 in this request 1105 response.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: It's now on here.
24 MS. MOELLER: Yes, that's the one.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: It's paragraph 2 of that, is it?
1 MS. MOELLER: Yes, that's the name that was dealt with by the
2 witness today.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, has anyone any objection to this document
4 being admitted to the extent of the response at 1105, paragraph 2?
5 Mr. Visnjic?
6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, only if this refers to
7 Nenad Matic and not the rest of the list. The list is quite
8 comprehensive. Therefore, we cannot state our position as regards any
9 other name apart from Nenad Matic, and I know this has been your practice
10 so far and I wanted to stress this yet again.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: If you look at what I said, I've asked to you
12 object -- if you have an objection to it being admitted to the extent of
13 the response at 1105, paragraph 2. Now, is that not clear? Obviously
15 Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. It's obvious that only today we get
17 the last name from this witness, or shortly before this. Now it's Nenad
18 Matic. Before it was only Nenad.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one second until I check if in fact that's
20 accurate. I don't think it is accurate from my reading of the transcript,
21 which is at page 6454 of the Milosevic transcript. And there you have the
22 name at line 5.
23 MS. MOELLER: And if I may assist, the name was also referred to
24 at page 6460 again.
25 MR. LUKIC: But the Prosecution had the opportunity to check with
1 this witness whether that's the same person.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, you've lost me now, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: They didn't try to introduce this document through the
4 witness we had before us a moment ago.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: How on earth would he be able to supplement this
7 MR. LUKIC: We don't know because we are confused with this
8 document --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: But what does he know about communications from the
10 Ministry of Foreign Affairs?
11 MR. LUKIC: Give me one second, please.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 MR. LUKIC: I cannot testify but I can tell you that this is very
15 common first and very common last name, so it can be the same person. It
16 does not have to be the same person.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you've got plenty of time to investigate
19 MR. LUKIC: Okay, yes.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the problem with -- I mean, any witness
21 could come along here and say that somebody in particular whom he
22 describes was present and you may wish to investigate that and bring
23 evidence to show that, in fact, the name was right but the description was
24 inaccurate, it was somebody else. That's a common occurrence in a trial.
25 And you've got every opportunity to refute this.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour, yes. Thank you.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall admit P2335 to the extent only at this
4 stage of the response to request 1105, paragraph 2.
5 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: And that reminds me of one other matter which did
7 arise when you said, Ms. Moeller, that P97, you didn't seek to admit --
8 have admitted because it would be tendered through another witness. It's
9 necessary that it just is part of the record, like every other exhibit
10 that's been referred to, so that we can put the evidence in context.
11 We've been adopting a practice here that's less formal in the admission of
12 documents than the Tribunal practice in other cases because we take the
13 view that to make sense of the evidence, the documents that are referred
14 to need to be exhibited to the extent they were referred to. And
15 therefore, this witness, having referred to P97, we would feel free if you
16 were unable to have it admitted through other sources later, to refer to
17 it to the extent necessary to understand his evidence.
18 MS. MOELLER: Very well, Your Honour. Thank you. And the reason
19 why I didn't seek to tender it was that we didn't see it feasible for this
20 witness to actually introduce a report that was done by experts, namely
21 the metropolitan police, who investigated this site and did the exhumation
22 and the identification procedure.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
24 MS. MOELLER: But we take your point. Thank you.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: There is little point now in bringing in another
1 witness at this stage.
2 This courtroom is to be used for the delivery of the Judgement in
3 the case of Krajisnik, which I think will be at 1.00. To be on the safe
4 side, we I think couldn't realistically resume before 2.30, and if for
5 some reason something happens in Krajisnik that delays the restart, then I
6 leave it to you to alert yourselves to that, as it happens, but we will
7 assume that we do not resume before 2.30, and thereafter, as soon as
8 convenient after the delivery of that Judgement.
9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.27 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, your next witness.
12 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, the next witness is Dr. Ali Hoti. He
13 will testify live, and his evidence relates to paragraph 72(a)(i). He
14 also touches upon paragraph 75(c), and the evidence is also relevant for
15 paragraphs 25 to 32, 77(a), (b) and (d).
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Dr. Hoti.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Please make the solemn declaration to tell the
21 truth by reading aloud the document which will be placed before you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: ALI HOTI
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, Your Honour, we have no LiveNote. I
3 can't get any LiveNote. They told me to try to use the old system. I
4 can't get that to work either.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm sure we'll survive while they're putting
6 it right, Mr. Ackerman. Do we really need to be dominated by technology
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, we make annotations in the transcript as it
9 goes along and -- so it is pretty helpful to have.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, indeed, I agree entirely. But for the time
11 that it will take to fix it, I think we can proceed with the witness. The
12 witness is giving evidence live, and if you need a pen I'll send one over
13 to you, but let's try and get by for the moment.
14 Okay, Ms. Moeller.
15 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Examination by Ms. Moeller:
17 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Hoti. Where are you from, Dr. Hoti?
18 A. I am from Krusha e Madhe village.
19 Q. And where did you live in March 1999?
20 A. In Krusha e Madhe.
21 Q. What is your profession?
22 A. I'm a doctor.
23 Q. And where did you practice as a doctor in March 1999?
24 A. In March 1999, I was not employed, but I practised as a doctor in
25 my private ambulance in the village.
1 MS. MOELLER: Could we please pull up Exhibit P615, page 22,
3 Q. Dr. Hoti, could I ask you to have a look at this map displayed on
4 the monitor? It is probably very difficult to identify any names on it.
5 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, may I suggest that we use a hard copy?
6 I would like him to point out some locations in the municipality, but I
7 think it's -- on my screen I couldn't read any of the names.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: No, but you can magnify the picture on the screen.
9 You can have it blown up at whatever part of the map you wish.
10 MS. MOELLER: All right. Okay. Thank you. Could we then zoom in
11 in the Orahovac area, please, where it says "Orahovac"? Yes. Can you
12 move it up a little bit? Little bit further? Yes. Thank you.
13 Q. Dr. Hoti, can you see on this map where your village,
14 Krusha e Madhe, is located?
15 A. Yes. I can see it.
16 MS. MOELLER: Could the usher assist with a pen.
17 Q. And could you make a circle around the village.
18 A. [Marks].
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. MOELLER: Could we leave this exhibit on while I go through
21 the testimony so he can mark some locations later on? Thank you.
22 Q. Dr. Hoti, how big was your village in 1999?
23 A. The village of Krusha e Madhe in 1999 had 500 houses and more than
24 6.000 inhabitants.
25 Q. Was the population in 1999 the same as in 1998? Or was it
2 A. No. It was different, since in the end of 1998, after an
3 offensive that was launched by the Serb forces on the surrounding
4 villages, part of the population of those villages moved to
5 Krusha e Madhe, and the number of the population in Krusha e Madhe
6 significantly increased.
7 Q. Did these people who moved into Krusha e Madhe tell you which
8 villages they were coming from?
9 A. Yes. They were coming from Zorqisht, Opterusha, Reti villages,
10 part from Orahovac. Mainly villages that were displaced and whose
11 population moved to Krusha e Madhe.
12 Q. And how was the ethnic composition in Krusha e Madhe in 1999?
13 A. Before 1998, a year or two before 1998, only two Serb families
14 lived in Krusha e Madhe. They moved to Serbia. Therefore, the population
15 was ethnically pure.
16 Q. I would now like to take you to the day of 25 March 1999. What
17 did you observe in your village, in Krusha e Madhe, on this day?
18 A. Could you repeat the date, please?
19 Q. Sorry, the date was 25 March 1999.
20 A. Yes. On the 25th of March 1999, early in the morning, at
21 4.00 a.m., the village was encircled from all sides by the Serb forces.
22 Large military forces, Serb military forces, were moving along the main
23 road, and they started to stop at the village, and at every 500 metres, a
24 tank would stop. The population, out of fear, because this main road runs
25 in the middle of the village, through the village, so the population,
1 seeing all these forces, fled from the village and sought shelter in the
2 hills above the village.
3 Q. Let me stop you here and go a bit more into detail. You referred
4 to Serb military forces. What kind of vehicles did you see? You already
5 mentioned --
6 A. All sorts of vehicles, from tanks, APCs, Pragas, and other escort
8 Q. And you also referred to a main road. Where was this main road
9 leading to? Between which cities?
10 A. This is the main road that links Prizren, Gjakova and Orahovac.
11 This is the main road that passes through that part.
12 Q. And where were you observing these movements from?
13 A. My house is about 50 or 60 metres far from this main road. I was
14 at home that morning. Having heard the noise of the movement of these
15 vehicles, I noticed that the vehicles had begun to stop, as I said, at
16 each 500 metres, and the others would proceed to other parts of the
17 village. I was very near the place where they stopped, and we began to
18 flee the village. I moved to the inner part of the village.
19 Q. How did the persons look who manned these vehicles? What kind of
20 uniforms, if any, did they wear?
21 A. They all had multi-coloured uniforms. They were military forces
22 who were wearing multi-coloured uniforms.
23 Q. And you already mentioned that out of fear, the population fled
24 from the village. Did you also flee from the village?
25 A. Yes. I left the village, together with my family.
1 Q. And where did you flee to?
2 A. We fled to a hill above the village and to some valleys. Since
3 the influx was very large, we were forced to separate into two groups.
4 Part of the population went to Krusha e Madhe, while myself and my family
5 moved with a group that was going in the direction of Nagavc, and we went
6 to a valley called the valley of Cili which is near Nagavc.
7 Q. Could you have a look at the map again and see whether you see
8 Nagavc on the map?
9 A. [Marks].
10 Q. Thank you. The witness encircled Nagavc on the map for the
12 How many -- how many people were at the location you just referred
13 to with you?
14 A. People were continuously coming from other villages as well, from
15 Krusa, from Nagavc, to that valley. So I would say there were more than
16 2.000 people in that valley -- 20.000, correction.
17 Q. And did you talk to some of these people?
18 A. I was with them all day long, all night long. We would talk. We
19 would observe together. I was with them at all times.
20 Q. So did they tell you where they were coming from, which villages?
21 A. There were people from Hoca e Vogel, from Brestovc village, from
22 Zorqisht, Opterusha, Reti villages. Later on people from Celine village,
23 not all of them, but part of them, joined us.
24 Q. Could you have another look at the map and also try to mark the
25 villages that you just referred to on this map?
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. Thank you. Now, while you were in this valley, what did you
4 A. While we were in this valley, during the day, we could see that
5 Krusha e Madhe was burning. You could see the smoke coming out from the
6 houses. And later in the day, from Celine, which is also on fire, these
7 forces, through a secondary road, went to Nagavc village, near the valley
8 where we were, and went to Krusha e Madhe village, and from there, they
9 could clearly see Nagavc, Krusha e Madhe and other villages, because that
10 is the nature of the position where they were.
11 Q. And just clarify this, you said you were in a valley, so how could
12 you observe all these things from a valley? Did you stay in the valley
13 all day or did you move during that time?
14 A. When they moved, they passed by in a secondary road, and they
15 passed near there. That's when we observed them, when they went towards
16 Krusha e Madhe. And when it was becoming dark, they wanted to show us
17 that "we are still here" and they shot several times with various weapons,
18 during the whole night, but there was no other major operation that night.
19 Q. And how long did you stay in that valley?
20 A. Until the morning of the 26th. In the morning, a group which was
21 in the same valley but a few metres away, they started to move away. They
22 were led by an old man who had a stick in his hand and he had a piece of
23 white cloth attached to that stick, as a sign of surrender.
24 When they came close to us, this old man told us that somebody had
25 told them to go towards Albania. So he didn't even stop. He was very
1 frightened, and he moved on. The whole population, because they were
2 frightened too, began to move away from the valley towards Nagavc and
3 Krusha e Madhe. At the entrance of the -- of Nagavc --
4 Q. May I interrupt you here and take this a little bit step by step.
5 So you're saying that when this group, led by the old man with the
6 white flag, met your group, that you then also started moving, you and --
7 does that mean also the other, the 20.000 people?
8 A. Yes, yes. That's what we did. We joined them. Everybody.
9 Q. And in which direction did you go then?
10 A. In the direction of the entrance of the Nagavc -- of Nagavc
12 Q. And were there any Serb forces around at that point?
13 A. Yes. At the entrance of the village, where the road separates, it
14 goes either to Nagavc or Krusha e Madhe, the Serb forces were there and
15 they told us that we could not go to Albania by crossing through
16 Krusha e Madhe, because Krusha e Madhe was in flames. The houses were on
17 fire. So we could not go that way. And we were told to go to the centre
18 of Nagavc village at the yard, school yard. So the whole population
19 gathered there. We stayed there for at least two hours.
20 Q. Let me interrupt you there and shorten it a little bit. Where in
21 Nagavc did these 20.000 people stay?
22 A. There is a yard of a school, it's an opening, it's quite big, and
23 that's where we stayed for two hours. Some were sitting, some were
24 standing. All of us were there. It's a school in the centre of Nagavc
25 and the yard of the school.
1 Q. And for how long did you stay altogether in Nagavc after that?
2 A. For about two hours, we stayed there, and we were waiting for
3 somebody to tell us something. So -- people were so tired then, and they
4 began going into the houses that had not been burned. So they took
5 shelter in those homes.
6 Q. Dr. Hoti, how many days did you stay in Nagavc?
7 A. We stayed until the 2nd of April, so it's about nine days. So we
8 were in Nagavc until the 2nd of April.
9 Q. And while you were in Nagavc, were you called upon as a doctor to
10 help injured people?
11 A. Yes, all the time. I treated people who needed my help, wounded
12 people, elderly, the elderly who were sick, but my equipment was very
13 scarce. The medicines I had also were very scarce.
14 Q. Do you know a person called Jeton Duraku?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. How did you come to meet him?
17 A. Jeton Duraku was a 17-year-old young man. He came that day from
18 the direction of that hill above Krusha e Madhe, towards Nagavc. He was
19 there together with his family. Jeton had gone in front of the others to
20 see what was going on on the road and to tell him family whether it was
22 When Jeton arrives at Nagavc, he met a Serbian patrol who had also
23 stopped other young people and was searching them one by one. After
24 searching Jeton, in his wallet they saw some kind of photograph with an
25 Albanian eagle, which is the Albanian symbol, and the letters KLA, UCK,
1 and they told him to go in the direction of the houses and they shot him
2 from behind.
3 Q. And what were his injuries like?
4 A. Jeton was wounded. The wound was on the lower part of his
5 abdomen. It was open wound. It bled continuously, but Jeton was able to
6 speak and tell us things, but minute after minute he began losing
7 consciousness. It was impossible.
8 Q. So was it Jeton himself who told you what had happened to him, or
9 how did you know that this was how he was shot?
10 A. Jeton himself told me everything, because I had to speak to him
11 for some minutes. I tried to stop the pain. He was in pain. But it was
12 such a big wound, and we did not have an operating theatre. Without that
13 we could not save the life of this young man.
14 He told me where he came from, where his family was, what happened
15 to him, and before his family came to Jeton, Jeton passed away in my
17 Q. Thank you.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Dr. Hoti, can you help us with the date of that,
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened on the 26th of April.
21 MS. MOELLER:
22 Q. May I ask you to clarify that? The transcript refers to 26th of
23 April, but you said you were in Nagavc only until the 2nd, early on.
24 A. No. Must be a mistake. 26th of March. One day after we left
25 Krusha e Madhe. There must be a mistake there, because it was the 26th of
2 Q. Thank you. Dr. Hoti, do you know a man called Mehmet Krasniqi?
3 A. Yes, I know Mehmet Krasniqi as well.
4 Q. Where did you meet him first?
5 A. I knew Mehmet Krasniqi from earlier, from before that time,
6 because he was is from Krusha e Vogel, which is very close to
7 Krusha e Madhe. We know each other. At that time I saw him at the
8 village of Nagavc. When Mehmet came, he was burned.
9 Q. Can you remember around which date this was?
10 A. It must have been the 27th of March, or the 28th. I'm not very
11 sure because at that time we lost track of dates. We did not have any
12 means of communication. There was no electricity. We did not have any
13 radio or television and so on. But it was the 27th or the 28th of March.
14 Q. And what was the condition Mehmet was in when you saw him?
15 A. At the moment he came to Nagavc, he was burnt. This was because
16 of an event that had happened in Krusha e Vogel.
17 According to him, 112 men were burnt in a barn at the village.
18 Mehmet luckily had fallen under two other men so he was alive. His hands
19 were totally burned and his face was burned but in the parts of the face
20 where the other bodies had not fallen on him, and I gave him first aid
21 with whatever equipment I had and whatever medicaments I had. We stayed
22 together for a little while, and he told me about Krusha e Vogel and what
23 happened there.
24 Q. So he told you what you just said about how he came to these burn
1 A. He said that in the village of Krusha e Vogel, all the men that
2 were found in the village that day, so 112 men, were taken and -- were
3 taken to a big barn and somebody had opened fire on them. Some were
4 wounded, some died instantly. Mehmet fell. No bullet had caught him.
5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I think we discussed this
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know whether any other doctor tried to help Mehmet Krasniqi
9 while he was in Nagavc?
10 A. At the time when Mehmet left me, I think I have -- I did not see
11 him until the moment he left for Albania, when he went to Albania.
12 When he came back from Albania, he had met other people in the
13 village of Nagavc, so I did not see him from the moment he left until he
14 went to Albania.
15 Q. And Dr. Hoti, do you know a person named Selami Elshani?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you see him in Nagavc?
18 A. Selami Elshani is a man from the village of Reti who was
19 displaced. He came to Krusha e Madhe. From 1998, he lived in
20 Krusha e Madhe.
21 And Selami, on the 27th, maybe I'm not very exact with this, maybe
22 I'm making a mistake in dates, but you can ask him. Selami also was
23 burned. He had even more serious burns on his body than Mehmet. So he
24 came to Nagavc, asked for help, and they brought him to me.
25 Q. And when you treated him, did he tell you what had happened to
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what did he say?
4 A. After I helped him, I treated him, he told me that in
5 Krusha e Madhe, in Haxhi Cerkini's house, which is in the upper part of
6 the village, all the men that were found in the village were gathered
7 there, 17 of them were separated there, men from Zorqisht, Opterusha,
8 Reti, so they were separated, and these 17 men were told to go into a room
9 in another house, Idriz Bida's house. They then brought straw, poured
10 petrol, and set the petrol on fire, and these people on fire.
11 Selami, just like Mehmet, fell first and other people fell on him.
12 And after some time, he could not remember how long it took, but it was on
13 the same day, Selami came out of his coma, if I can call it so, he broke a
14 window-pane, and jumped out of the window and went out, in the direction
15 of Nagavc.
16 Q. Dr. Hoti --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you're moving on from that, there are
18 certain things that I would like to clarify.
19 MS. MOELLER: Yes, please, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: If we go back to the previous one, Mehmet Krasniqi,
21 he was injured by fire, but you also said that the 112 men had been shot
22 at and it was as the result of that that he had other bodies on top of him
23 protecting his body. What then happened to cause him to be burned?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to clarify
25 something here.
1 Mehmet was not wounded. He just fell down because of his fear.
2 While the others who were wounded fell on Mehmet. So only parts that were
3 not covered by the bodies were burned, his feet, his hands, so -- his
4 face, while the rest of his body was covered in blood from other people.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: My question was what caused him to be burned? What
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because the Serbian forces set the
8 place on fire. All the other ones burned -- were burned there. Only this
9 one --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: That wasn't part of the account and it was
11 important for us to be clear on that.
12 And then, if you could now deal further with the second -- or the
13 last one, Selami Elshani. You said he came out of his coma. How did he
14 end up in a coma in the first place?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the beginning, when they set the
16 place on fire, because of the smoke and the flames, he fell, and on him
17 fell other people. So Selami survived. Other people were burned alive in
18 that house. He's the only one. He's alive today.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that also but you said that he escaped
20 from the house when he came out of his coma. Now, that suggests he was
21 unconscious. How did he become unconscious?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the fire started, he was
23 burned, but not the whole of his body was burned. So mostly his face and
24 the parts protruding out. But he was not burned to that extent that he
25 could die from those burns. When that house was set on fire, the windows
1 and the doors were closed, so Selami was not conscious. And these are
2 Selami's words, what he told me.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it may be a little bit late but I
4 don't know why we are taking up the time of this Court to listen to this
5 witness tell us what someone else told him who is alive and well and can
6 come here and tell us the story themselves. And will. Certainly Mehmet
7 Krasniqi is going to be here to tell us what happened. And this witness
8 seems to have detail that couldn't have come from what these witnesses
9 told him at the time. So it's just a little distressing that we are
10 spending time listening to this when we are going to get it straight from
11 the horse's mouth, so to speak.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.
13 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, I think it's first-hand hearsay
14 evidence and it corroborates the account that one of the survivors,
15 Mr. Krasniqi, indeed will give later this week, and I don't see what would
16 be the problem with listening to Dr. Hoti, who can confirm which state
17 Mr. Krasniqi was in when he met him.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I understand certain aspects of it can be
19 confirmed directly by this witness. But by telling us the account of how
20 Mr. Krasniqi was injured isn't corroboration of Mr. Krasniqi's evidence,
21 because there is only one source of that information, that's Mr. Krasniqi.
22 MS. MOELLER: That's correct, Your Honour, and that's why I
23 actually let him only shortly follow his account of what these people told
24 him, just put it in context.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand and I saw that you were anxious to
1 confine the account as far as possible. So let's progress now, please.
2 MS. MOELLER: Very well. Thank you.
3 Q. Dr. Hoti, I would like to move now on to the 1st of April. Or
4 rather the night of the 1st of April. What happened during that night?
5 You were still in Nagavc?
6 A. On the night of the 1st of April, or maybe early the 2nd of April,
7 I could say, because it was 2.00 p.m., after midnight, we were sleeping.
8 Suddenly there was this great noise. We woke up, we wanted to see what
9 happened. At that moment, a plane was flying very low over Nagavc. It
10 was a great noise. It turned around on Pashtrik, which is close to the
11 Albania border, and at the beginning, there was this fire that came and
12 then detonations were had heard, so Nagavc was on fire. Some houses
13 collapsed. People were distressed, terrified. They began going into
14 their basements. They started yelling for help because people were
15 wounded. At the house where I was staying, the roof collapsed, the
16 window-panes broke -- were broken, and only one woman fortunately was
17 wounded in the house where I was staying.
18 Q. Dr. Hoti, did you see the plane or did you hear it?
19 A. It was 2.00 in the morning, as I said. It was the noise that made
20 us get up and go look. But we only saw this big light, the fire, that
21 came from the airplane and we heard the noise. It was impossible to see
22 the plane at that time. It was 2.00 in the morning and this big light
23 that came from the plane did not allow us to see it.
24 Q. And did it sound like planes you had heard before?
25 A. It was a noise of an airplane. It was flying very low, almost
1 over the roofs of the houses. At that time, never -- we had never seen
2 such a -- planes flying so low before.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... ask you between the 24th of
4 March and the night of 1st April, did you hear NATO airplanes flying at
5 any time?
6 A. From the 24th, we saw the NATO airplanes every night but I would
7 like to make a distinction here. But for those nine nights we never saw
8 planes flying low. The planes were flying very high and the noise was not
9 from close. So this was a different kind of noise.
10 Q. Okay. Dr. Hoti, were you called upon that night again to help as
11 a doctor injured people?
12 A. Yes. I was called to go and help. I went from house to house,
13 wherever I could go, to the -- I went to the first house. I saw there
14 five wounded people and one killed person who had died. I confirmed his
15 death and he was buried there. One of them -- one of the wounded was --
16 had broken ribs. One of them had a slit forehead, a cut on his forehead,
17 while the other one had broken his arm because the wall had fallen on him.
18 There was another house where I went. There were wounded people
19 there. In another house, there was this little girl that had her leg cut
20 off by a grenade. I bandaged her wound. She lives today. She lives in
21 Nagavc today but she lost her leg.
22 There was another child --
23 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you again. After that incident happened,
24 what did the people in Nagavc do? Did you stay there or did you leave
25 Nagavc at any point?
1 A. When morning came, at dawn, people began to collect whatever
2 clothes they had left, put them on the tractors and began to travel
3 towards Krusa and further on towards Albania, because we feared all the
4 time that a similar kind of bombing would happen, but also because even
5 the houses where they were sheltered, those houses were burned.
6 Q. And what was your condition, your personal condition, at that
8 A. In the morning, I went back to my family. I was so distressed. I
9 began to throw up. My head was swimming. I saw these people wounded,
10 with their parts of their bodies strewn on the soil. I got on the
11 tractor. It was somebody else who drove the tractor. I wasn't able to do
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, is this actually referred to in the
14 indictment, as an air attack?
15 MS. MOELLER: It is referred to as shelling, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well -- well, we don't talk about NATO shelling, do
17 we? But we talk about Serb shelling.
18 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, we -- the reason why we didn't change
19 the word when we amended the indictment is that at the time the strategy
20 was that we would -- that we would try to secure as much as possible that
21 the two indictments against Mr. Milosevic and his co-accused would be
22 identical and not to make any changes that are not substantively wrong.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Why would you do that, if you gather more
24 information about events and the position is clearer? Why would you keep
25 the indictments the same?
1 MS. MOELLER: I think the information was already there when the
2 evidence was presented in the Milosevic case, and witnesses in their
3 statements which represented there and here now referred to this being an
4 airplane bombing or shelling.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: So it the evidence to be that there was no actual
6 shelling but that on the 2nd of April it was bombing?
7 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on.
9 MS. MOELLER:
10 Q. Dr. Hoti, you said that you left Nagavc that morning. In which
11 direction did you go?
12 A. We went in the direction of Krusha e Madhe. We went in the
13 centre, towards the centre of the town. We saw that Krusa was completely
14 burned. I went by myself and I saw that it was burned. We went to
15 Prizren and then from there to the Albanian border.
16 Q. Let me stop you here again. How many people were with you on this
18 A. All the people who were in the valley, with the exception of the
19 people who were killed, about 50 of them. The rest all continued their
20 route to Albania. As I said, with the exception of the 50, we were about
22 Q. And while you were travelling in this very long column, did anyone
23 approach you? "You" meaning people in the column?
24 A. In Nadovica -- Landovica village, we came across Serbian forces.
25 There were provocations there. Some of the elderly were taken away, those
1 traditional hats that they wear, and they played with those hats. And we
2 heard the words there, "You have to go to Albania. Kosova is not yours.
3 You don't have to come back. This is Serbian land." These words.
4 Q. When you arrived at the border, who was guarding the border at
5 that time?
6 A. At the border, there were policemen in blue clothes. What the
7 Serb police used to wear all the time. While on the road, en route, we
8 saw military forces with camouflage uniforms. At the border we were taken
9 away all the documents that we had on us. We were forced to take off the
10 licence plates from the vehicles and we had to hand over all our IDs and
11 documents, everything, with the reasoning that we did not need them
12 anymore, that we would never come back to Kosovo anymore, we would live in
13 Albania. This is a present from NATO and Clinton. That's what you
14 wanted. And this is what you got. And Kosova is Serbian land. This
15 were -- these were the words that we heard.
16 Q. And was anything else taken away from the Kosovo Albanians before
17 they were allowed to cross the border?
18 A. I emphasised it in the statement but I'll say it again. That we
19 crossed the border on the 3rd of April, all night before that day we
20 stayed in a column at the border. The people who had a nicer car, a new
21 car, had to leave their cars, take their clothes or whatever they had, and
22 the Serbs took away their cars. So there were several cars that were
23 taken by the Serbs in that convoy.
24 Q. Thank you. Dr. Hoti, I would like to take you back because I did
25 not address one point that I wanted to discuss with you while you were
1 still in Nagavc.
2 While you were in Nagavc during these days, did there ever come a
3 police or soldiers into the village?
4 A. Yes. On the 28th.
5 Q. And what did they do?
6 A. They caught me on the street. I put my hands up. Somebody with
7 an automatic rifle, with camouflage uniform, a tall man with a moustache,
8 dark-skinned, he took me. There were another two who were staying by the
9 tractors with their guns ready.
10 This one that came to me, he asked my -- for my ID. I gave him my
11 ID. He asked for money. He took everything that I had in foreign
12 currency. At that time I had 700 or 800 Deutschemarks, while Yugoslavian
13 dinars, he said, "I don't need those. You keep them." After this, he
14 asked me, "What are you doing here?" I said, "We've been displaced from
15 Krusha e Madhe, and I live in that house there now." So he forced me to
16 go towards that house.
17 I have to clarify something here. There were about 300 people
18 staying in one single house at that time. It wasn't possible to lie down
19 because of so many people in one house. Where I was staying, we were only
20 80 people, but the men were staying in one room and women and children in
21 another room.
22 Q. And when he took you into that house, what did he tell you to do,
23 if anything?
24 A. After he opened the door to the room where the men were, he told
25 me to collect the money from the men. I did so. He was not satisfied
1 with the amount. Men, because of fear, did not carry money with them.
2 They had the money with the women and children. That's why he then went
3 to the room where the women and children were. He kicked the door open,
4 and I guess he was now satisfied with the amount he got there.
5 He then ordered us to go outside in the courtyard, and he began to
6 separate the young men on one side. In one particular moment because of
7 the screams and cries of mothers and other women, I guess he changed his
8 mind and told us to go back in. I was the last --
9 Q. Sorry to interrupt you again. When you said also -- the policeman
10 also went into the room where the women and children were --
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I think I have to object. I don't see
12 that he was testified that it was a policeman. I don't think he has
13 mentioned a policeman at all during his testimony.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's correct. Well, no, it's not correct
15 in relation to the border but --
16 MR. IVETIC: Right. But in terms of this incident.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed.
18 MS. MOELLER:
19 Q. Dr. Hoti, these persons -- this person who robbed you of your
20 money and who took you to the house and then also entered the room where
21 the women and children were in, how did he -- how was he dressed?
22 A. He had a camouflage uniform. He was tall, dark complexion, had a
23 moustache. His friends had bandanas.
24 Q. And what colour was his uniform?
25 A. The colours on their faces were red, white and blue.
1 Q. And what colour was the uniform he wore?
2 A. To tell you the truth, because of fear, I cannot tell you exactly
3 the colour. Now, whether it was dark blue or whether it was black, but it
4 was camouflaged.
5 Q. Okay. You already mentioned that it was a very crowded situation
6 in the houses in Nagavc. How was the situation regarding food and
8 A. Disastrous. Adults were mainly hungry because that little food we
9 had we had to distribute it to children and to the persons who were sick.
10 We would eat just what we had, that little, or even stay for two or three
11 days without any food. And not to mention hygiene conditions, no water,
12 no electricity, nothing.
13 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I'm seeing it's already after 4.30. I
14 don't know when you wish to take the break. I have only one more aspect
15 to deal with.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I think you should finish the
18 MS. MOELLER: Very well. Thank you.
19 Q. Dr. Hoti, in the statement you gave in 1999, you mention the
20 brother of your wife being missing at the time. And you didn't know at
21 that time what happened to him. Do you know today where he is?
22 A. Yes. On the 26th of March, 2006, that is this year, my
23 brother-in-law, Gezim Reshiti, together with 45 other persons were
24 identified through ADN tests, so after seven years, these persons were
25 found, identified and reburied.
1 In this context, I would like to mention that we have still 37
2 persons whom we never found, who are still unaccounted for. At least, if
3 an ADN test could be carried out for these persons to be identified, we
4 have no news whatsoever about these 37 persons to this day.
5 Q. Just to clarify for the sake of the transcript, it says ADN test.
6 Do you mean a DNA test?
7 A. Yes, DNA in English.
8 Q. And do you know where the human remains of your brother-in-law
9 were found?
10 A. The remains of 80 persons who, in 1999, after their return from
11 Albania were buried unidentified, they were collected from a house in the
12 exit of Krusha e Madhe, the house where the burned, the -- those still
13 alive or those who had died were burned. So the remains were then taken
14 for analysis.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that the place where Mehmet Krasniqi was or --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is a different place.
18 Where the wounded, the bodies, were collected and taken to a house at the
19 exit of Krusha e Madhe, and where there they were burned, that place was
20 visited a lot, and that place is mentioned a lot because more than 80
21 persons were burned there.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, that would complete my questions. I
24 would just ask for a snapshot to be taken of the map, please.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC57, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Well, we shall resume at 10 minutes
2 past 4.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, the order will be General Lukic,
7 General Pavkovic, Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Milutinovic, General Lazarevic and
8 General Ojdanic.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 Mr. Ivetic.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we have a last-minute switch.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: I have switched with the Lukic team, if that's --
14 with the approval of the Court.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:
16 Q. Mr. Hoti, I want to ask you very briefly about some testimony you
17 gave in the Milosevic case. It's at paragraph 3626. You spoke there of
18 an offensive that the Serb forces carried out in July of 1998 against the
19 KLA forces in Orahovac. Do you recall talking about that?
20 A. There was an offensive in 1998. At that time, a part of the
21 population in Orahovac and of the villages of Zorqisht and Opterusha, they
22 moved to our village and we learned from them that there was an offensive
23 there and that was the reason why the population was displaced.
24 Q. All right. That was a pretty long explanation based on my
25 question. If you'd listen to my questions and just try to answer them as
1 best you can and as short as you can, we won't be at this quite as long.
2 I think you said in the Milosevic case that three or 4.000
3 refugees came to your village from Orahovac. Is that true?
4 A. Again, I would like to specify that this was the population from
5 Orahovac and from the villages that I mentioned.
6 Q. Yes. And your village had a population, I think, of 6.000 so
7 adding 3.000 or 4.000 filled your village up pretty good, didn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, at line 17 on that page in the Milosevic transcript,
10 Mr. Tapuskovic was questioning you and asked you about this. And he said
11 that this offensive, quoting Mr. Tapuskovic: "Was it aimed at driving
12 these people out of their villages or was it aimed against the KLA?"
13 And your answer was: "No, it was against the KLA."
14 That's also true, isn't it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. Now, I want to move ahead to March of 1999. You
17 describe in your statement the Serb forces arriving in the area of
18 Krusha e Madhe on 25 March at about 4.00 in the morning, 0400 hours. Is
19 that right?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And you talk about two tanks having stopped in front of your
23 A. This is also correct.
24 Q. The main road went through your village, so these were vehicles
25 and forces that were moving along that main road, weren't they?
1 A. No. Because they would stop there and others would continue.
2 Q. Yes. But -- I understand that and you told us that, that they
3 would stop occasionally but then they would move on, and this was a
4 large --
5 A. Those that would stop would not move on.
6 Q. All right. So they stayed there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, NATO had already started their bombing campaign by the time
9 this happened, hadn't they?
10 A. The NATO campaign began on the 24th, in the evening, and what I
11 described happened the next day, in the morning.
12 Q. Yes. Do you have any idea why NATO didn't bomb these vehicles
13 that were -- these tanks and APCs and everything else that were right out
14 in the open in your village? They would have been easy targets, wouldn't
16 A. First of all, it was the first day of the NATO campaign.
17 Secondly, NATO in most of the cases bombed during the night. And thirdly,
18 they were mixed with the population.
19 As I said, the village -- the population was in the village and
20 the main road was running through the village. So what would have
21 happened if NATO bombed there? It would have been a massacre.
22 Q. Yeah, that could have been pretty bad, couldn't it?
23 These forces that you describe, these Serb forces that were moving
24 along this road that goes through your village, they were the forces of
25 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, weren't they?
1 A. Yes. Of what remained from Yugoslavia, because at that time
2 Yugoslavia did not exist as such an entity.
3 Q. Kosovo was part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, still is --
4 well, not now, it's part of Serbia. But it was at that time part of the
5 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, wasn't it?
6 A. It used to be but whether it is still, that is for someone else to
7 decide. I cannot answer this question.
8 Q. I'm talking about March of 1999. It was then, wasn't it?
9 A. Yes. But in your question you said that it still is. I'm not
10 competent to answer that question because someone else decides on that.
11 Q. I don't even need you to answer that question. It's not
13 I think you'll concede and agree with me that if there were Serb
14 forces present in your village like you say, on that date and moving along
15 a road through your village, they had every right to be there because they
16 were in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and they were forces of the
17 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. They weren't invading anybody. That was
18 where they belonged, wasn't it?
19 A. They would pass through on other occasions as well, but this time
20 it was different and with a different purpose.
21 Q. Well, they had every right to try to defend that part of the
22 Republic of Serbia, Republic of Yugoslavia, from terrorists and from NATO
23 attacks, didn't they?
24 A. NATO was not on the ground. It wasn't in our village. And at
25 that time, there were no terrorist groups in our village. This was just a
1 revenge over the population because of the NATO bombings.
2 Q. Well, I know that that's your position and you have every right to
3 take that position, if you wish.
4 In the village of Krusha e Madhe, there was a Serb family, the
5 head of which was a guy named Boski. Isn't that true?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And on the 25th of March, 1999, in that village, Boski led a gang
8 of hooligans who started burning and looting the houses in your village,
9 didn't he?
10 A. That's true.
11 Q. And this Boski even started wearing a green camouflage uniform,
12 didn't he?
13 A. They were all wearing that kind of uniform.
14 Q. I asked you about Boski. Boski was wearing a green camouflage
15 uniform, wasn't he?
16 A. Including Boski, yes.
17 Q. And Boski wasn't a member of the army of Yugoslavia, was he? He
18 was a civilian wearing a green camouflage uniform.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You left your village that day and took refuge in a valley that
21 you -- that was between a couple of hills where you could make
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I'm wondering if you left before or after Boski started his
25 burning and looting in your village.
1 A. This has been explained in my statement. We were above
2 Krusha e Madhe village. We spent the night in the valley. From the hill
3 above Krusha e Madhe, you can see the village very well. And as for the
4 night, as I said, we spent it in the valley.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if you could answer the question now,
6 Dr. Hoti, which was whether you left before or after Boski started his
7 burning and looting? In other words, did you move out of the village
8 before or after he started the burning and looting?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We went to the valley after the
10 burning occurred. We observed from the hill above the village. When it
11 became dark, we went to the valley because we felt safer there. So it was
12 after Boski's activities.
13 MR. ACKERMAN:
14 Q. So you had no problem observing Boski's activities and identifying
15 him as the person leading this group, did you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, I want to go now to the 26th of March, the next day --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you do that, please, Mr. Ackerman.
19 Dr. Hoti, I had the impression that you had left the village much earlier
20 in the day. At what time did you actually leave the village itself?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the morning. And I explained in
22 my statement as well that --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Please bear in mind I don't have your statement.
24 I've relying on what you've told us here today, all right? So we are
25 trying to get answers to questions that we have in our minds. We don't
1 necessarily have the same thought -- all have the same thoughts. So I
2 would like to know what time --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: -- you took your family to the hill above the
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Immediately after the encirclement,
7 after we saw the forces coming. We immediately went above the village.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: By that time, had Boski started burning and
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later, not exactly at the time when
11 we left, but sometime in the afternoon, a couple of hours later.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: The evidence is now completely different from what
13 it was a moment ago because you weren't answering the question you were
14 asked earlier. Please listen carefully to the question, and I assure you
15 it's an important answer.
16 Mr. Ackerman.
17 MR. ACKERMAN:
18 Q. So your observation of what Boski was doing was made from outside
19 the village?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How many people were in this gang that Boski was leading?
22 A. A few. I didn't count them. It was a group.
23 Q. Can you make any kind of an estimate? Was it hundreds or was it
25 A. Tens.
1 Q. All right. Now I want to go to the 26th of March -- I'm sorry.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry to interrupt again, but just to be clear --
3 MR. ACKERMAN: No problem.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: When you were observing from the hill, were there
5 any tanks still visible to you?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The tanks were stationed
7 there. They no longer moved.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Mr. Ackerman.
10 MR. ACKERMAN:
11 Q. On the 26th of March, you talk about joining up with a group of
12 people from Hoca e Vogel who told you they had been told to go to Albania.
13 And so you started walking, you said in the direction of Krusha e Madhe,
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So you're walking back toward the town that you had already left?
17 A. There was no other road. We did not go back to Krusa proper
18 because we were stopped.
19 Q. There was a point where you were stopped, I know, by the police
20 and you were told to go to -- in the direction of Nagavc, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, some of these people who had stopped you at that point were
23 recognised by some of the people who were with you as former neighbours,
24 persons they had lived next to?
25 A. I was saying this with reference to another event.
1 Q. Well, so that was not the case when you were walking toward
2 Nagavc; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. What was the condition of the -- yes, you are right,
5 because it was when you arrived in Nagavc that some uniformed people came
6 and started collecting money from you; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. These were the people that were recognised, some of them were
9 recognised as former neighbours of people that were with you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was the condition of the village of Nagavc when you first
12 arrived there?
13 A. There were some houses that were burned and destroyed but the
14 majority of houses were not.
15 Q. And were there -- were there soldiers around the village of
16 Nagavc, in the area around that village?
17 A. We didn't see them.
18 Q. So the only forces that you saw of any kind were those that came
19 in the village and were demanding money from you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did they remain there or did they leave?
22 A. They left in an unknown direction. I didn't know where they went
23 to but they left.
24 Q. It's difficult to figure out the time-frame. However, in the
25 Milosevic transcript, at page 3614, you said, in a response to a question
1 from Mr. Milosevic: "The Serbian forces were always on the hills round
2 about us."
3 Was that -- was that true with regard to the time you were in
5 A. These were the words of the soldier. He took me and took my
6 money. He said to me, "We are around in the hills and we are observing
7 and watching you, every movement, so don't leave your houses." These were
8 his words.
9 Q. All right. The last thing I want to talk to you about is this
10 bombing incident that you described in Nagavc. This happened at 2.00 in
11 the morning in the dark. I take it you would agree that it would have
12 been impossible to actually see and identify the aircraft that was
13 involved in this?
14 A. I said earlier that it was not possible to see the aircraft.
15 Q. And you talked about the sound that this aircraft made compared to
16 the NATO airplanes that you'd been hearing every day and it was different
17 because it was flying very low. So it had a different sound to it;
19 A. Yes. It was a different noise because it was flying low. While
20 during the nine days, when the NATO bombing occurred, the noise was not
21 that strong. This is the difference.
22 Q. And so you concluded because this particular aircraft was flying
23 low and made a different sound, that it was not a NATO aircraft but a
24 Serbian aircraft. Is that -- is that the basis of your conclusion?
25 A. What aircraft that was, whom it belonged to, it is up to the
1 military people to decide. They can see the pieces of bombs here and
2 there and they can analyse them.
3 Q. Do you know anything about cruise missiles and that they fly at
4 very low altitudes?
5 A. I have never heard or read about those missiles.
6 Q. All right. I think it's probably true, and it's probably the
7 case, that your position on this is pretty much exactly what you told
8 Mr. Milosevic on page 3610 at line 8, when you said: "I can't say whether
9 it was your aircraft or NATO's. All I can mention here is what I have
10 heard and seen."
11 And that's really your evidence and your testimony, isn't it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Sir, thank you for your attention. I don't have any more
14 questions of you.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, is that transcript an exhibit? Or
16 does it have an exhibit number?
17 MR. ACKERMAN: It is, Your Honour. I think it's 4D24 -- 4D25.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
22 Q. Good day, Dr. Hoti. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I'm one of the
23 attorneys representing Mr. Sreten Lukic in this trial and I'm assisted by
24 Branko Lukic and Ozren Ogrizovic, and I'm going to ask you a few questions
25 to clarify and better understand your testimony, so please bear with me.
1 Now, my first question has to do with your home village of Velika
2 Krusa, or Krusha e Madhe in the Albanian. Now, first of all, in the
3 Milosevic proceedings, you stated that the KLA -- that the KLA did not
4 have a presence in your village. Is it still your testimony today that
5 the KLA was not present in Velika Krusa or Krusha e Madhe?
6 A. Yes, it is. I say it with full responsibility that the KLA did
7 not operate at that time there.
8 Q. Okay. You say at that time. Let me ask you some specific
9 questions. In -- in March of 1999, isn't it true that there were armed
10 KLA fighters in and around your village of Velika Krusa, both in uniform
11 and in civilian clothes?
12 A. No, that's not correct.
13 Q. Okay. Was there a KLA presence in your village, in either 1998 or
14 1999, at any time?
15 A. The KLA was not in Krusha e Madhe. It had never been, because the
16 village is very close to the main road, and the forces, the Serb forces,
17 the army and so on, moved along that road. So there was no KLA presence
18 in Krusha e Madhe, never.
19 Q. Are you familiar with an individual named Ragip or Ragip Hoti from
20 Krusha e Madhe?
21 A. Yes. I know him. He's a cousin of mine.
22 Q. And isn't it true that Ragip Hoti was the commander of the KLA
23 forces, the KLA detachment, that was located in Krusha e Madhe village in
24 1998 and 1999?
25 A. Ragip Hoti was a soldier. He was not a commander. I don't know
1 about that. But he was not operating in Krusha e Madhe. He was with the
2 KLA where the KLA was operating.
3 Q. Okay. Well, where is it that the KLA was operating, if they were
4 not operating in Krusha e Madhe?
5 A. In the inner villages, Semetisht, Samadrexha, Drenoc, in the
6 Malisheve area but not in Krusha e Madhe.
7 Q. How many kilometres were these areas from Krusha e Madhe?
8 A. The closest village is over 20 kilometres away.
9 Q. All right. So if we could focus, then, on the critical dates in
10 March, that is around the 25th and 26th of March, 1999, when you say that
11 these forces surrounded the village of Krusha e Madhe and when people
12 began to leave Krusha e Madhe. I'd like to ask you if, in fact, any
13 individuals that were KLA fighters were present in Krusha e Madhe during
14 that critical point in time?
15 A. I said it earlier. I'm repeating it again. There was no
16 presence, no KLA presence, in the Krusha e Madhe.
17 Q. All right. Well, let me ask you about a couple more specific
18 individuals. Do you know someone named Naser Krasniqi, aged 22, or at
19 least he was aged 22 in 1999, from Krusha e Madhe who was a member of the
20 KLA? Was he there on March the 25th or March the 26th, 1999?
21 A. Naser Krasniqi is not from Krusha e Madhe, and he was not there in
22 Krusha e Madhe. He was in those places where the KLA was. There was no
23 soldier, no KLA soldier, in uniform there in Krusha e Madhe that day.
24 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with an individual named Enver Hoti, born
25 in 1970 in Krusha e Madhe, the son of Jahir Hoti?
1 A. Yes. Enver Hoti was never a soldier of the KLA. He still lives
2 in Krusha e Madhe today. He was never a member of the KLA. I think
3 you've got the wrong information. I know him very well. He's a relative
4 of mine. He never was a KLA member.
5 Q. You state that you know him very well and that he's a relative of
6 yours. Was he there on the -- on this critical date when people began to
7 leave Krusha e Madhe?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did he leave with the group that you were with from Krusha e Madhe
10 on that day?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this time I would ask for
13 Exhibit 6 D80 to be put up on e-court.
14 Q. And sir, while we are waiting for that, do you know whether, in
15 fact, Enver Hoti gave a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor of the
16 Tribunal, a sworn statement?
17 A. No, I don't know.
18 Q. Okay. Now, if I could first direct your attention, and I have to
19 apologise, sir, I only have this document in English because that is how
20 it was given to me by the Office of the Prosecutor so I will have to read
21 portions of it for it to be translated to you. So please bear with me.
22 If I can direct your attention to the second page of that exhibit,
23 we are looking at the first page now, and if we could zoom in on the top
24 portion, this witness statement begins, sir, with the words: "I was born
25 in Krusha e Madhe and lived there all my life" -- all my live, actually.
1 "I am married with Shpresa, 27 years old, and have three children, Erkan,
2 8 years old; Erenita, five years old; and Erlanda, three years old. I
3 lived together with my parents, Hoti, Jahir, 56 years old, and Hazize, 50
4 years old, and an aunt, Hoti, Naxhie."
5 And I apologise for the translations -- for the pronunciations.
6 Sir, is this the Enver Hoti that you had known very well who is a
7 relative of yours and who left Krusha e Madhe with you?
8 A. Yes, this is the one.
9 Q. Okay. If I could have --
10 A. Yes, it's him.
11 Q. Now if I can have the document scrolled down to the excerpt
12 dealing with the date in question, and again I'm going to have to read
13 this for you so you can get the translation, sir. According to Enver's
14 words, he says, and I quote: "I had seen the tanks before patrolling the
15 same road but this time there was much more than I had seen before. After
16 we had seen all these tanks. All the young men gathered in the village.
17 An UCK soldier spoke with us and told us that nothing should happen to us,
18 that the Serbs were just passing by. Everyone went home."
19 Now, Dr. Hoti, do the words of your relative Enver Hoti refresh
20 your recollection as to whether or not there were KLA fighters present in
21 your village of Krusha e Madhe?
22 A. Earlier you told me that Enver Hoti was a soldier in the KLA. You
23 can see from this document that Enver Hoti was not a soldier but he was a
24 simple villager. He said these words and he's responsible for those
25 words. And I told you earlier that I never saw a KLA soldier that day. I
1 did not see this soldier. You can ask him. He can give you an answer
2 about this.
3 Q. All right. If I can now direct your attention to the next page of
4 this exhibit, and -- strike that. I need to start at the bottom of the
5 last page. It flows over the pages so we are going to have to start at
6 the bottom of the last sentence and flow on to the next page where Enver
7 Hoti describes how he left his home. The previous page. It's page 3,
8 page 2 in e-court, the bottom.
9 And beginning with the last sentence: "There were not so many
10 people in the village anymore because the most had" -- and then we had to
11 go to the next page in e-court. "Most had left at about 0400 hours which
12 we did not know. I left the house and saw Krasniqi, Naser, about 22 years
13 old, and Krasniqi, Selim, about 31 years old, at the centre of the village
14 and talked to them. I asked them what was going on, and they told me to
15 leave because the village was surrounded. They were wearing civilian
16 clothes but carrying automatic rifles. I had seen Naser before in an UCK
17 uniform. At that moment, I did not hear any shelling or shooting. All
18 the young men had left."
19 And then he talks about another friend that he met in the hill
20 where the mosque from Krusha e Madhe was. He says: "I met a friend of
21 mine there. He was carrying an automatic rifle, and I asked him where to
22 go. He said that I should go wherever I could go. That friend worked as
23 a mechanic for the UCK but he was not wearing a uniform."
24 Now, Dr. Hoti, do these words of your relative refresh your
25 recollection of whether there were armed UCK fighters in civilian clothes
1 present in your village directing people where to go precisely upon the
2 critical date in March when people began leaving the village?
3 A. First of all, it is not up to me to comment on the statement of a
4 person who is alive. And secondly, I can tell you that I never saw any of
5 these mentioned here, but if this person saw them, he can testify. But I
6 will tell you this: Of the 206 people from Krusa who were killed that
7 day, all of them were civilians. There were no soldiers there. No
8 soldiers were killed at that day. So all of them were civilians.
9 So you can ask that gentleman about his statement. I am not
10 responsible for his statement.
11 Q. Well, sir, you did identify that this individual Enver Hoti left
12 Krusha e Madhe with you and so I'm just trying to find out why the
13 description of who was in the village and who wasn't in the village is so
15 Now, as a final question relating to this document, I'd like to
16 have the last page put up on e-court just so that there is no confusion
17 about the identity of this individual, because apparently when he gave his
18 statement in Albania, this was attached to it, and I would ask you whether
19 in fact the picture on this identification document is of Enver Hoti.
20 A. I can't see it very clearly, the photograph, I mean, but the name
21 is there. Yes.
22 Q. And is this in fact a Yugoslavian driving ID or permit?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Now, I have to ask you about the activities of the KLA
25 combatants. Did you ever as a medical doctor treat KLA combatants for
1 wounds they received in either 1998 or 1999?
2 A. I treated soldiers in my clinic when they came there but I also
3 treated civilian -- the civilian population, because as a doctor I did not
4 make any distinction. Whether they were soldiers or civilians or whatever
5 nationality they were, I treated all.
6 Q. And when you say that you treated soldiers, are we talking about
7 KLA soldiers or some other type of soldier?
8 A. No. No other organisation. They did not come in KLA uniform. I
9 thought they were from the KLA but when they came to my clinic, they were
10 in civilian clothes.
11 Q. So -- and, first of all, your clinic is located in Krusha e Madhe;
12 is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So is it your understanding that when the KLA fighters would come
15 to Krusha e Madhe, they would not wear their uniforms but would wear
16 civilian clothes?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you stated that there were a number of
19 people from Opterusha present in your village as a result of the 1998
20 offensives that were directed against the KLA that were in that village.
21 I want to ask you if you are aware of any actions undertaken by the KLA to
22 kidnap civilians from any village, such as Opterusha, in the municipality
23 of Orahovac?
24 A. No. I'm not aware.
25 Q. Would you be surprised, then, to find out that on the 16th of
1 July, 1998, the UCK kidnapped every single Serb civilian from the village
2 of Opterusha?
3 A. I don't know about this either.
4 Q. Did the many civilians that you said came from Opterusha to
5 Krusha e Madhe not discuss such a large scale action by the KLA in the
6 village that they had come from?
7 A. I said that something happened there, that there was fighting.
8 That's why they moved out of that village. They did not live in that
9 village anymore. But I don't know anyone, neither Albanian or -- either
10 Albanian or Serb.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last part of
12 the answer.
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. Sir, they need you to complete your answer. The translation
15 stopped after you said "neither Albanian or Serb." Actually, I strike
16 that. It stopped after you said "either Albanian or Serb."
17 Could you please repeat your answer so that we can have it?
18 A. From the village of Opterusha. I did not know anyone from
19 Opterusha because it was far away from my village.
20 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to move ahead to the time-period that you were
21 in Nogavac and you talked about this individual in a multi-coloured
22 uniform whose colour you could not remember, who had a moustache and a
23 dark complexion, whose friends had bandanas and red, white and blue paint
24 on their face. I understand you could not identify the colour of the
25 uniform but did you see any tags on the uniform?
1 A. No. Because in those moments, it's difficult to see those things,
2 when you have a gun pointed at you. It's difficult. You cannot see those
3 signs or tags.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MR. IVETIC: One moment, Your Honour. I need to consult with my
6 colleague and see what other areas I -- if I missed any.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm done.
9 Q. Thank you, Dr. Hoti for your testimony.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 Mr. Petrovic.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac?.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all I have left is one
17 question. And by your leave I wanted to ask Dr. Hoti the following.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
19 Q. Dr. Hoti, is it correct that on the 25th of September, two days
20 ago, that is, you spoke with the Office of the Prosecutor and that you
21 provided some additional information?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Is it correct that these two days ago, when you spoke with the
24 OTP, you said that soldiers of the army of Yugoslavia usually behaved in a
25 fair way towards the refugees?
1 A. Yes. The soldiers behaved better, always behaved better.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further
3 questions for this witness.
4 Q. Thank you, Dr. Hoti.
5 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour. I'm sorry, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll take the first answer.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:
8 Q. Mr. Hoti, I have a few questions concerning the period immediately
9 prior to the outbreak of the conflict regarding the events which took
10 place in your village of Velika Krusa and its environs. Did you know that
11 on the 27th of February, 1999, a Serb was abducted from the vicinity of
12 the village of Velika Krusa after which an exchange of fire ensued between
13 the KLA and the Serbs, the consequence of which were 400 to 600 people who
14 fled to Bela --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the last toponym.
16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. To the village of Bela Crkva?
18 A. I would like to know which village. When you say a village close
19 to Krusha e Madhe, which village do you mean?
20 Q. Did you know that on the 27th of February, 1999, close to your
21 village of Velika Krusa, a Serb was kidnapped by the KLA after which there
22 was an exchange of fire between the KLA and the Serb forces?
23 A. Yes, but I'm asking you again which village do you mean? Where
24 was this fighting taking place? Because if you say close to
25 Krusha e Madhe, I don't know what you mean. I have to know the name of
1 the village.
2 Q. Very well. Let me put it this way. On the 27th of February, were
3 there 400 to 600 inhabitants of Velika Krusa who fled to Bela Crkva to
4 their relatives?
5 A. No. That's not correct. Nobody moved from Velika Krusa at that
6 time. It was calm.
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 3D113 shown to
8 the witness.
9 Q. Mr. Hoti I wanted to read out a part of this exhibit, this being a
10 report. I believe we'll have to wait for it to be put on the screen.
11 Mr. Hoti, this is a report by the European Monitoring Mission
12 dated the 27th of February, in which they describe events which took place
13 in the vicinity of your village.
14 In paragraph 1 of the report, it reads the following: "[In
15 English] At 1530 hours on 27 February, a Serb was abducted in the vicinity
16 of Randobrava, three kilometres east of Velika Krusa."
17 [Interpretation] Then: "[In English] At 1900 hours outside
18 Velika Krusa, machine-gun fire and one mortar shell was fired, likely by
20 "People in Velika Krusa panicked, and some 400 to 600 fled to
21 Bela Crkva. Most of them could find shelter with relatives. The team met
22 around 100 IDPs on tractor and horse coaches, all heading towards
23 Bela Crkva."
24 [Interpretation] Refugees.
25 Mr. Hoti, are you aware of this incident?
1 A. First of all, the village of Randobrava had never Serbs living
2 there. Now, the question is how come this Serb was there and abducted?
3 Secondly, it's not clear to me how these people fled to Bela Crkva.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not the question. The question is whether
5 you're aware of 400 to 600 people fleeing from your village to Bela Crkva.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: That's the only question that's being asked at the
8 moment. And your answer to that is?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I have never heard of this.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Thank you. Do you know a person by the name of Sebahudin Cena
13 from Velika Krusa, who was otherwise a KLA commander in the special
15 A. Many things are mixed up here. Sebahudin Cena is from Orahovac,
16 he's alive. He works and lives there. He's not from Krusha e Madhe. He
17 worked and lived in Orahovac.
18 Q. All right. And did you hear that in the village of Celine which
19 is near you on the 5th of March, 1999, 12 members of the KLA, of the
20 special police of the KLA, broke into the yard of Gezim Rexhepi, among
21 them was this Sebahudin Cena as well, and they tried to kill a person, and
22 they abducted another person? Have you heard of that incident?
23 A. This person you mention, was it a Serb or Albanian, because there
24 is no Serb in Celine. All of them there are Albanians.
25 Q. That person's name is Hazim Terjeni, the person who was abducted.
1 A. There is no person by last name Terjeni in Celine.
2 Q. So you never heard even of a similar incident?
3 A. No. I didn't hear because, as I said, there is no Terjeni family
4 in Celine.
5 Q. All right. Could you please tell me the following? Do you know
6 Ilir Hoti and Nexhmedin Hoti from Velika Krusa?
7 A. There are several Ilirs. If that's the one I think, I know him.
8 I don't know which Ilir in particular you are referring to.
9 Q. I'm giving you the following names now. Ilir Hoti and Nexhmedin
10 Hoti, both of them members of the KLA, from Velika Krusa.
11 A. Ilir Hoti during this time worked and lived in Switzerland. He
12 still works and lives there.
13 As for Nexhmedin Hoti, he was a disabled person, and I don't think
14 a disabled person can be a member of the KLA. Nexhmedin was killed but by
15 your forces. So, as, said, I don't believe that a disabled person could
16 be a member of the KLA.
17 As for Ilir he was never in Kosovo at that time. He was in
19 Q. Then obviously there is a person by the name of Sejfullah
20 Hoti who made our -- an erroneous statement to the OTP of this Tribunal
21 but then let's move on.
22 Do you know the name of Rashkaj Petrit from your village,
23 Velika Krusa?
24 A. This person, too, is not from Krusha e Madhe. He is from
25 Krusha e Vogel. These are two different villages, not one village.
1 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I hate to interrupt Mr. Visnjic at
2 that point. I'm just noting that the transcript is void of most of the
3 correct names. Can we trust that the names will be filled in? It may
4 play a role later in the case that we have the correct names in the
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's normally what happens, is the
7 transcript is updated. So I don't think there is any reason to think it
8 will be any different today.
9 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: If there is a problem tomorrow when you see the
11 transcript, you can raise it.
12 MS. MOELLER: I will. Thank you, Your Honours.
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me just help my
14 colleague, the page is ERN 0076-5392. That is where she will find the
15 exact name.
16 Q. So you are right, Mr. Hoti, Rashkaj Petrit is indeed from
17 Mala Krusa but he stated the following. "There were members of the KLA in
18 the village of Mala Krusa but at the moment when we were taken prisoner,
19 there weren't any. There were a few of their bases in Velika Krusa but
20 not in our village."
21 Mr. Hoti, is Mr. Rashkaj Petrit right?
22 A. I never ever mentioned the village of Krusha e Vogel. I never
23 circled it on the map.
24 As for Krusha e Vogel, there are witnesses who can testify about
25 that particular village. I am here to testify about Krusha e Madhe, which
1 is a different village.
2 Q. Maybe we haven't understood each other. Witness Rashkaj said
3 there were a few bases of the KLA in Velika Krusa. That is his assertion.
4 Is that correct?
5 A. I cannot confirm or deny somebody else's words. What I said from
6 the very beginning, and I repeat it now, there was no KLA presence.
7 MS. MOELLER: Excuse me again, Your Honour, but could the name
8 witness be filled in? What was the name, please? Could that be
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't know it's not being done. Could you give
11 that name again, please, Mr. Visnjic?
12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Petrit Rashkaj. And again the same
13 page, the same ERN number that I gave a few minutes ago.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Hoti, is this the right information, that in your village,
17 there is a certain pizzeria that is owned by Gazmend Malesori?
18 A. Are you talking about then or now? Can you clarify that, please?
19 Q. Whenever I put questions to you I'm referring to 1999. So is
20 Gazmend Malesori a person from your village? Let's start that way.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Right. Does he own a pizzeria?
23 A. I said yes.
24 Q. Hamza and Halim Bellanica, are they from your village?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now I'm going to read out to you a portion of 3D98, which reads as
2 follows. It's also part of a witness statement and it says the
3 following: "The witness stayed in the village and Hamza and Halim
4 Bellanica were members of the KLA. Halim was armed with an AK 47 rifle
5 and he went to his KLA base in the village which was in the pizzeria of
6 Gazmend Malesori."
7 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I object to the use of this document.
8 According to what we received, 3D98 is not a witness statement, but it is
9 a document that is not specified in terms of its source or anything that
10 is titled KLA presence, DEM 2. And it seems to be a collection of some
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. It is a
14 collection that was provided to us by the OTP. Right at this moment I
15 cannot give you the exact date, but it was on a CD that was submitted to
16 us in 2003.
17 We are looking for the relevant information right now. I can
18 provide it immediately after this hearing. I can give the date of
19 disclosure by the OTP and what --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: The objection is that you've characterised it as
21 part of a witness statement. Now, is it a witness statement?
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can actually have it
23 displayed. It is 3D98, page 55. 3D98, page 55.
24 I've just been told now that this material was disclosed to us by
25 the OTP on the 23rd of October, 2002.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. But what is it?
2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] It is material that contains [In
3 English] -- of KLA in Kosovo. These 8 spreadsheets were prepared by the
4 Office of the Prosecutor.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: I can't see on it who it's referring to, though, at
6 any stage. These -- these are anonymous, are they? You're just going to
7 put some anonymous information; is that right?
8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I'm putting to the
9 witness is what I received from the OTP. I received it as anonymous
10 information. If they are challenging that now, and it's their very own
11 document, then I think that we've entered a new stage. I will withdraw my
12 question but I would really like to hear them first.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not their document, Mr. Visnjic. This is a
14 material which they have which they've disclosed to you, as I understand
16 Now, before we can make use of it, meaningful use of it, we need
17 to know what it is, and at the moment I'm floundering in my attempt to
18 identify what it is. For example, the bit on the screen doesn't have any
19 names on it. Now, is it because part of the page is missing or what?
20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what we got from the
21 OTP is documentation that is contained in eight -- in eight special
22 entities that are defined as KLA presence [In English] KLA incidents, KLA
23 activity, KLA killings of non-Albanians, KLA missing non-Albanians.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: And is it one of the passages on the screen that
25 you were putting to the witness?
1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes. But I think it's not on this
2 page. Then I really have a problem if I gave that page reference. Just a
3 moment, please.
4 I see. My colleague is telling me that it is page 57 on the
5 screen. Can we see the next one? We are looking -- sorry, 55.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, thank you. Now, Ms. Moeller what exactly is
7 the objection?
8 MS. MOELLER: The objection is, Your Honour, is that first of all
9 Mr. Visnjic referred to that being a witness statement to -- to --
10 confronting the witness with it. It's not clear who is that witness and
11 also it's just one page excerpt from a document that is -- who -- which
12 purpose is unclear at the moment.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
14 I will repel that objection because all that is happening here is
15 that Mr. Visnjic is putting a question which is based on information he
16 has in his possession which came from the Office of the Prosecution and
17 therefore that's an adequate foundation for the question.
18 I'll then ask the question myself to try to speed this process up.
19 I think the question that Mr. Visnjic wants to ask you is whether the
20 names Hamza and Halim Bellanica are familiar to you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hamza and Halim Bellanica are from
22 Krusha e Madhe and they live in Krusha e Madhe even today.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it correct that they were KLA members?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They were not KLA members.
25 I've never seen them with --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: You've never seen them with what, sorry?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In KLA clothes.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you ever seen either of them carrying a
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He could have had that weapon
6 that day, but personally I didn't see him with a weapon and I didn't hear
7 that he used that weapon. The person who had seen him with a weapon
8 should be held responsible for his words.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: And what do you make of the proposition that there
10 was a KLA base in your village located at Gazmend Malesori's pizzeria?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That term itself, "pizzeria,"
12 "restaurant," was used maybe every now and then by a KLA soldiers for
13 them to eat lunch because it is normal for someone to go to a restaurant
14 to eat or drink something.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]. .
17 Q. Mr. Hoti, Behra Dalip, does that name sound familiar to you?
18 A. Dalip Behra, yes. He was killed. He was a KLA member, but he was
19 not killed in Krusa. He was killed at a location where fightings against
20 the KLA was going on.
21 Q. I just asked you whether the name was familiar to you.
22 A. Yes, it is familiar to me.
23 Q. Right. What about Arben Behra, also from your village? Was he a
24 member of the KLA?
25 A. Yes. Don't know about him.
1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further
2 questions of this witness.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.
4 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, I also object to the admission of
5 Exhibit 6 D80, the statement of Enver Hoti in the current format as
6 provided by the Defence. The basis for this objection is that my learned
7 friend Mr. Ivetic addressed twice with Dr. Hoti the question that Enver
8 Hoti fled together with Dr. Hoti, and by this I think the part of the
9 statement that address the flight of Enver Hoti became part of the
10 cross-examination and should be included in the statement that is
11 submitted as well. That would be page 1 and 2 of the statement.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: You mean that's part of the statement not referred
14 MS. MOELLER: That's part of the statement that Mr. Ivetic
15 referred to by asking whether Enver Hoti fled together with Dr. -- with
16 Dr. Hoti and it was cut out of the version of the statement that is
17 submitted by the Defence.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's --
19 MS. MOELLER: We submit the parts that are submitted are taken out
20 of context.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Ivetic, what's being proposed is that you
22 should have the whole statement presented.
23 MR. IVETIC: If I recall correctly, we have been at this several
24 times and we've decided that excerpts from transcripts that have been
25 discussed in cross-examination will come in rather than the whole
1 transcript. We had the same situation with another statement that I used
2 the other day.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: That's correct in so far as you can isolate that
4 particular element or passage, but what's being suggested here is that you
5 need to see the context to put the evidence in its proper context.
6 MR. IVETIC: If you look at the section that I quoted, the
7 context, i.e., the parts around it that I didn't quote are actually in the
8 exhibit. The witness is the one that stated for the first time that he --
9 that Enver Hoti left with him. I cross-examined him about -- specifically
10 upon his recollection of whether there were KLA members present and that
11 is what is submitted in my exhibit.
12 I don't know what the Prosecution wants. If they want me to be
13 presenting their witness statements in toto in my case, it sounds like
14 they want me to do their job for them. I presented what is relevant to my
16 JUDGE BONOMY: You have a reason for opposing this, have you?
17 MR. IVETIC: Yeah, on principle. I think that it's improper. If
18 they want to present evidence, they should present it. And I confronted
19 the witness with portions of the statement, the sworn statement.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, "confrontation" is not the appropriate word
21 here because it's not his statement. What you're doing is you're putting
22 questions which are based on someone else's statement, and there is
23 nothing wrong with that. You're putting parts on the screen to clarify
24 that. But I don't think it's confrontation. What's being said against
25 that is that because it's someone else's statement you need to see more of
1 the context to understand properly the evidence that's given in response
2 by this witness.
3 MR. IVETIC: But I believe the role that we have been having in
4 this trial is that only parts that are referenced in testimony are --
5 become part of the evidence, so ...
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, they don't even necessarily become part of
7 the evidence. They are on the record because they were used and they help
8 an understanding of the evidence that's actually given by the witnesses.
9 But here it's being suggested that to do that job properly you need to see
10 more of the statement.
11 MR. IVETIC: But, Your Honour, if you look at the exhibit, it
12 references the day, it references the village, and it references what he
13 saw. What other context would be necessary to having that understanding,
14 I don't know, because the witness -- this witness testified that there was
15 never a KLA presence in the village before I used the exhibit to try and
16 refresh his recollection. So I --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Give me, please, Ms. Moeller, an example of what
18 you think from this statement would help us to understand the evidence
20 MS. MOELLER: Well, the issue here is, Your Honours, that by
21 asking Dr. Hoti twice whether Enver Hoti fled with him, Mr. Ivetic gave
22 the suggestion to the Court that the two of them were actually together
23 all the time and that Dr. Hoti, by saying that he did not see any KLA
24 soldier and he did not see the persons that Enver Hoti referred to in his
25 statement, he may not have been truthful.
1 Now, if you look at the --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I specifically noted that this witness -- it
3 doesn't follow for a moment that this witness was with Enver Hoti the
4 whole time. I specifically made that note as the evidence went along.
5 It's clear from his evidence that he did not say he was in his company all
6 the time.
7 MR. IVETIC: And I might add the exhibit itself also doesn't
8 mention that he was with him at that time, so ...
9 MS. MOELLER: Very well. Because that was not clear on the record
10 for me. And if you look at the parts of the statement of Enver Hoti that
11 were cut out, it becomes very clear how this witness fled.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: But we are not having regard to the evidence of
13 Enver Hoti. It's not before us as his evidence. It's before us as the
14 basis for a question. The issue for us will be how much of what is put to
15 him this witness accepts or denies. But Enver Hoti's statement isn't a
16 piece of the evidence that we are considering as a separate piece of
17 evidence in the case.
18 MS. MOELLER: No, Your Honour, certainly not. But I understood
19 that this witness confirmed twice that he and Enver Hoti were fleeing
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you can ask him now in re-examination to
22 clarify the position if you're in any doubt. But it doesn't require any
23 more of the statement admitted.
24 MS. MOELLER: Very well. That's the alternative approach I wish
25 to take to clarify this.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, well, please do that then.
2 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Moeller:
4 Q. Dr. Hoti, how many people fled out of your village that day, out
5 of Krusha e Madhe that day?
6 A. To where? To Albania?
7 Q. When you first fled your village on the 25th of March.
8 A. I said earlier that we left in two directions; one towards Nagavc
9 and the other above Krusa. So not everybody went in the same direction
10 but the whole village left but in two directions.
11 Q. And how many people would there have been, the whole village?
12 A. Well, I said there were 6.000 inhabitants in the village, but
13 there were other people who came, so there were 3.000 or 4.000. But they
14 left in two directions, all of this -- all of those people.
15 Q. And did you flee on foot or on a tractor or in a car?
16 A. Some on tractors or in cars. Me, personally, I was on foot.
17 Because I did not have a tractor at home.
18 Q. And did you see Enver Hoti while you were fleeing out of the
20 A. It was impossible to see everybody that day. It was chaotic. We
21 left, we fled to save our lives. How could I see Enver Hoti that day?
22 Q. Thank you. There is one more issue I would like to address
24 Dr. Hoti, earlier we talked about this person called Boski.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you actually see him yourself or were you told by someone else
2 about what he did and how he looked on that day?
3 A. I will tell you something. Until the day the -- of the offensive,
4 Boski was very close to the Albanians. He went to Albanian homes. He was
5 friends with him.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: It's a very precise question. Did you see him
7 yourself or did somebody else tell you about his activities that day.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We could see him ourselves from
9 the hill.
10 MS. MOELLER:
11 Q. And before the burning and the looting started, how did the people
12 who did these acts arrive in the village?
13 A. They came in two buses from Prizren, stopped at the entrance of
14 Krusa, at a grocery store. They stayed there for about an hour, went
15 inside that shop. They ate there and then they went into the village.
16 But they came in those buses.
17 Q. And when these buses arrived, were there still tanks on the main
19 A. Yes. They were there. They were stationed there. They did not
20 move from the places where they were stationed.
21 Q. And which road did these buses take to come into the village?
22 A. There is only one road from Prizren. There is only one road from
23 Prizren to Orahovac. There is no other road.
24 Q. And is this the main road you talked about where you saw the tanks
25 and the other vehicles?
1 A. Yes, yes. This main road.
2 MS. MOELLER: No further questions, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Ms. Moeller.
4 Dr. Hoti, that completes your evidence. Thank you for coming
5 again to the Tribunal to give it and expand upon what you said before and
6 explain the various things that you've been asked.
7 You're now free to leave. Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE BONOMY: We will resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.36 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th day of
13 September, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.