1 Thursday, 12 October 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll go into closed session for the witness to be
6 brought in.
7 [Closed session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 Good afternoon, sir. Your evidence will now continue. Please
17 remember that the solemn declaration you took at the beginning to tell the
18 truth continues to apply to your evidence throughout.
19 Ms. Moeller.
20 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Examination by Ms. Moeller: [Continued]
11 Page 4695 redacted.
9 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before you move on, first of all, has that
12 got a number?
13 MS. MOELLER: Yes. Sorry. This is (redacted) number P2376.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: And what is it?
6 Q. And you maintain that you did not know or notice anything at that
7 time about this killing of a hundred -- more than a hundred men in a barn
8 in the centre of the village?
9 A. No.
10 Q. In your statement, you say that you saw only one or two houses
11 burning in the area while you were there. Where were those houses, if you
13 A. Well, I don't remember exactly.
14 Q. From where you were positioned, could you actually see the centre
15 of the village?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you're saying you could have seen it if houses in the centre of
18 the village had been burning?
19 A. Yes, I could have seen it, but I can't remember at this very
20 moment where it is relative to the centre of the village.
21 Q. Do you recall when you left this headquarter established at the
22 main road, around which date?
23 A. I don't recall now which date it was, whether it was the 27th,
24 28th, 29th. I don't know.
25 Q. And where did your unit go from there? What was your next
2 A. After that, our company left towards Orahovac, and the next
3 operation for us was Milanovici and Malishevo.
4 Q. Did you see -- did you see any other units in this operation?
5 A. Only Frenki's men for about 10 minutes and no one else.
6 Q. And the area where you saw Frenki's men, did you depict that on
7 the map that we had a look at yesterday?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Your Honour, I think we do not need to call it up again unless you
10 like to have a look at it again. Okay.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you -- are you finished with the fallout from
12 the video clip?
13 MS. MOELLER: Yes.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Is your suggestion that this witness knows more
15 than he's prepared to say? If that's what you're trying to do, have a go
16 at him and find out, but don't play us video clips that make suggestions
17 and then ask a few mild-mannered questions that don't -- if this man's
18 position has to be tested, then it's your duty to test it. I'm left
19 wondering what's the purpose unless you're actually going to ask some
20 challenging questions.
21 MS. MOELLER: Very well.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, maybe you don't have a basis for it, in which
23 case I then wonder why -- what we're doing.
24 MS. MOELLER: Well -- yes. I would -- can I -- with Your Honour's
25 leave, can I finish the other deployments of the witness and then get back
1 at that?
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
3 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.
4 Q. The next deployment after the one towards Orahovac, according to
5 your statement, was liberating the Pec-Kula-Rozaje road, and in the
6 statement it says it was in early April, 1999.
7 This is page 6 of the statement, Your Honours.
8 Did you see other units involved in this operation?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And the deployment after that you describe in your statement as
11 having been around the Radonjic Lake, Supod, Lapodnica. Were there any
12 VJ, MUP or JSO units involved in this operation to your knowledge? Did
13 you see any?
14 A. I'm sorry, here in the transcript it says something else. That's
15 not what I heard in the interpretation, whether MUP units were involved,
16 yes. What is this about JSO? In any case, that's not the interpretation
17 that I got.
18 Q. I asked you whether in this operation any units of the MUP or the
19 JSO or the VJ were involved and whether you saw those, any of those.
20 A. No. Only the MUP.
21 Q. And the last deployment you talk about in your statement, late
22 April, early May, was in the Suva Reka area, Budakovo.
23 MS. MOELLER: This is page 6 still of his statement.
24 Q. Were there any VJ units, MUP units or JSO units involved in this
25 operation to your knowledge?
1 A. Only MUP.
2 Q. And that was your last deployment. When did you leave Kosovo?
3 A. I don't remember the exact date. Sometime in May.
4 Q. Could we call up Exhibit P99 again, please. Page two, please.
5 Now, we looked at this exhibit yesterday, and you marked in the
6 upper-left corner the approximate position your unit was, and when I
7 talked about the centre of the village today, I was referring to the part
8 of the village which is in the right-hand side of the photo where a
9 vertical street is going up. I ask you again, could you see from where
10 you were, could you see into this part of the village?
11 A. No.
12 Q. So which part of the village could you see? Because earlier you
13 said yes, you could see the village. Could you mark which parts you could
15 A. All of this.
16 Q. And while you were there during the three or four days, you did
17 see two -- one or two houses burning, and you don't recall where? Do you
18 stand by this account?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And this part that you just encircled, you did not see any houses
22 A. I cannot really say. I was looking from the other side. I was
23 not looking from this perspective.
24 Q. And when you left the village, or when you left the location and
25 moved on to your next deployment, how would you describe the -- the state
1 of the village? Was it intact? Was it destroyed? What kind of
2 destruction, if any, did you see?
3 A. It was not destroyed.
4 Q. And the house in the vicinity of the Hajdari compound in which the
5 six prisoners of war were shot, you say in your statement it was burned.
6 When was that house burned?
7 A. I cannot tell you the exact date. Everything happened very
8 quickly, but it happened while we were there.
9 Q. Was it close to the killing event or the next day or the second
11 A. I cannot tell you the time. I don't know.
12 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, that's as far as I think I can take it
13 on this point here.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 MS. MOELLER:
16 Q. Yes. Can we take a snapshot of the picture, please.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] ... Your Honours.
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I have an objection to
20 this photograph. Your Honour, the reason is very simple.
21 If the Prosecutor wanted to test the witness, then it would have
22 been fair to have shown the photograph from the perspective from which he
23 was looking, and they have the resources to do that. This is an aerial
24 photograph, one. Second, it shows much more than he could have seen from
25 his position. And in fact, I don't see how this photograph can really
1 help us in terms of what the witness could or could not have seen.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: These are all issues of weight of the evidence and
3 they're matters on which you can cross-examine the witness, so we will
4 admit the snapshot.
5 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Can we call up Exhibit P2015, please. 2015.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this exhibit that the
10 Prosecution wants to show this witness now is, in our opinion, completely
11 inappropriate for admission through this witness and in general. This
12 witness, as he told us himself, used to be a junior sergeant in the
13 police, and he had no direct impact and no direct knowledge --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: First of all, what is this exhibit so that -- can I
15 see the English, please.
16 MS. MOELLER: The exhibit -- if I may assist, the exhibit is a
17 Joint Command order of the 23rd March, 1999, and we are not intending to
18 tender this document through the witness, but I would like him to comment
19 on the operation that is described therein and whether this relates in any
20 way to the operation that he participated in, in his opinion.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: In the light of that, Mr. Petrovic, do you maintain
22 the objection?
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am satisfied with
24 one part of the answer, namely when the Prosecutor says that she did not
25 intend and does not wish to tender this through this witness. That much
1 is okay. But all questions that may be asked of this witness go beyond
2 anything that he could have had direct knowledge about, and all such
3 questions would be inappropriate. So I'm happy with the answer, but I
4 don't think it is -- I think it is pointless to ask questions about this
5 document of this particular witness. Of course, it is up to you, Your
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, these are the matters for argument in due
8 course. What the witness is going to be asked about is how what's set out
9 in the order compares with what happened on the ground, and that seems to
10 me a perfectly legitimate exercise, and indeed it may actually go to the
11 question of whether the document on its own might ever stand as a piece of
12 evidence on its own in due course because it could contribute to its --
13 our assessment of its reliability. However, for present purposes, all
14 that will happen is the part that's referred to will be admitted in the
15 context in which it was used so that we can fully understand the evidence
16 that's given, and we note the objection you take to the exhibit in
18 So carry on, please, Ms. Moeller.
19 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours. Indeed I have very
20 specific paragraphs I want to address. It would be page 3, paragraph 5
21 and 5.1. This is in both the English and the B/C/S version. It's the
22 same page and paragraph number.
23 Q. Sir, could you have a look at paragraph 5 and 5.1. Can you read
24 it? To yourself, I mean.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Would that generally reflect what you understood your unit was
2 taking part in, kind of operation?
3 A. This document shows some general operation that was likely, but
4 all I know about is the blockade of the road from Velika Krusa to Mala
5 Krusa, and I have not even heard of half of these places.
6 MS. MOELLER: Could we move then to Exhibit 1981, please. It
7 would be page 3, paragraphs 5.4 and 5.5 in the B/C/S version, and it would
8 be page 4 with the same paragraphs in the English version. And the
9 document that is pulled up is an order of the 449th Motorised Brigade,
10 dated 23rd March, 1999. Yes.
11 Can you zoom in paragraphs 5.4 and 5.5, please.
12 Q. Sir, could you have a look at these two paragraphs.
13 A. I don't have it on the screen in front of me. I don't have it.
14 Q. Do you have it now? Can you see it now? Okay.
15 Could you please look at paragraph 5.4 and 5.5.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, Your Honour. I just have it in B/C/S.
17 I don't have it in English. I'd kind of like to see what it was.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Could we have the English version, please.
19 Can you get it, Mr. Ackerman, on your LiveNote screen?
20 MR. ACKERMAN: It's here now, Your Honour. I see it.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on.
22 MS. MOELLER:
23 Q. Sir, these two paragraphs, would they reflect generally what you
24 experienced and described in your statement as the operation of which your
25 unit was part of?
1 A. In paragraph 5.4, I didn't participate in that. That must have
2 been done the day before, since the wine cellar had already been liberated
3 by the time we arrived.
4 Q. And paragraph 5.5, what would you comment on this one?
5 A. We took part in that.
6 Q. Could we go to page 5 in the English version, paragraph 8.2. In
7 B/C/S, it's page 4 of the same document.
8 Can you have a look at 8.2. The first paragraph where it refers
9 to the wine cellars in Mala Krusa. You must mentioned the wine cellars.
10 Were you aware that this was a concentration point for prisoners of war to
11 be brought there?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you.
14 MS. MOELLER: Can we now call up Exhibit P1995.
15 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm sorry, Ms. Moeller, I need just a little bit
16 more time to digest the contents of each one.
17 MS. MOELLER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Certainly. Thank you.
18 Could we call up Exhibit P1995, please. And the first page in
19 both versions, please.
20 Q. This document is the analysis of an operation carried out, and
21 it's dated 30 March, 1999.
22 Sir, could you have a look at the first paragraph in this
23 document. It talks about an operation in the period between 25 and 29
24 March, so in the period when you were in the area around Mala Krusa.
25 Could you look at this paragraph and tell us whether that would generally
1 describe the operation you took part in?
2 A. In principle, it does show that, but I don't know about all the
3 locations mentioned here, and I don't know the exact details of the
4 operation because I was assigned my own separate area of responsibility.
5 Q. Very well. Could we go to page 3. In the English version page 3,
6 paragraph 6, and in the B/C/S version it is page 2, paragraph 2.
7 Sir, could you have a look at paragraph 2. The sentence starts
8 with "The formations of the VJ," and then further down it refers to MUP
9 forces having been engaged. Could you have a --
10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, again, the English version is not
11 available, so before there's any answers or anything, I'd like to see it.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Could we perhaps have the English version brought
13 up at the same time as the B/C/S in future so we're not delayed by this?
14 I take it yours, like mine, Mr. Ackerman, is set up for the
15 English to come on. You have to actually set it. Now mine's just
16 appeared on the screen only now.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, mine appeared at the same time as yours did,
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, so they're set that way, I think.
20 Ms. Moeller.
21 MS. MOELLER:
22 Q. Did you have a chance in the meantime to read the part listing the
23 MUP forces in paragraph two?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you see the detachment you were a member of in this list?
1 A. I can only see the 23rd detachment of the PJP and we were a part
2 of it.
3 Q. Thank you. Scrolling down a little bit. In the same paragraph it
4 says: "The total strength of the MUP forces in this overall operation was
5 1.020 men." To the best of your knowledge, would that be a realistic
6 number from what you observed in your area if you can comment on that?
7 A. Yes. That is it.
8 Q. And the overall number of all forces involved in this operation is
9 said to be around 2.000 men. What do you say to this number from your
10 experience in this operation?
11 A. I can't speak about the others, but this is the correct figure for
12 the PJP. I didn't meet the other ones, including the army, apart from the
13 force that was with us.
14 Q. Now, the same page, scrolling down to the bottom. It refers in
15 the last sentence on this page of the English version, it says: "The
16 coordinated action amongst the forces and the coordination with the MUP
17 forces were functioning well."
18 From your perspective, having been a part of the MUP forces, do
19 you share this assessment? Was the coordination between the VJ and the
20 MUP functioning well in this operation, the operation that you
21 participated in?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, the last document I would like to call up is
24 Exhibit 1989. And page 3, please, in both versions.
25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
2 MR. IVETIC: I'm working under the assumption that this is --
3 what's listed as Exhibit P1089 in the 65 ter summary for this witness
4 which would be the minutes of a meeting at the MUP leadership in Kosovo as
5 it's listed.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the number that's been given I think was
8 MR. IVETIC: I know. And that's a number that I do not see on the
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, which one is it?
11 MS. MOELLER: It is 1989, and we informed the Defence after we
12 filed the notification that we had a -- had the wrong number put on the
14 MR. IVETIC: So I think I am talking about the minutes of the
16 MS. MOELLER: Yes.
17 MR. IVETIC: Then I do have an objection to this document, Your
18 Honour, based upon the fact that the witness's statement is very clear and
19 the testimony given in the Milosevic case is very clear that he was never
20 present for any briefings apart from the one briefing in front of the PJP
21 commander and, therefore, I don't see how he can be asked to merely
22 speculate about places where he was not at if in fact this is what the
23 Prosecutor intends to do with this document. So I would object again to
24 it being admitted into evidence for the record. Thank you.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.
1 MS. MOELLER: I'm not inviting the witness to speculate about
2 anything. I would just like to ask him whether he got ever to know about
3 such kind of meetings being held, because one of his commanders was
4 participating in this meeting.
5 MR. IVETIC: It sounds like speculation to me, Your Honour.
6 You're asking him to speculate.
7 MS. MOELLER: No. Asking him --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Please, I won't have argument directly between
9 counsel across the courtroom. The Court will be addressed and not parties
10 directly. I hope that's clear.
11 Let me hear your question.
12 MS. MOELLER:
13 Q. One of the persons listed in this document is Borislav Josipovic.
14 Was he the commander of your detachment?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And did he or anyone else in your detachment or your immediate
17 unit ever tell you about meetings held between commanders of the PJP, the
18 SAJ, the JSO, the SUP chiefs, and under attendance of Sreten Lukic and
19 Nikola Sainovic as this one?
20 A. No.
21 Q. That would complete my questions, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that should allay your concern, Mr. Ivetic.
23 MS. MOELLER: No further questions, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, can we go back to P99, page 2, please.
25 MS. MOELLER: Certainly.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we bring that up on the e-court. Now, Ms.
2 Moeller, in the evidence of either Krasniqi or Ramadani, there was a
3 photograph used to identify the location of the -- a building in which a
4 large number of people were held, I think overnight, until the morning of
5 the 26th. Can you recollect the number of that exhibit?
6 MS. MOELLER: I would have to check that, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Or can you tell me from this one roughly where that
8 building is located?
9 MS. MOELLER: Are you referring to the -- to the houses in
10 which -- in the compound of which the persons were then assembled and
11 separated out?
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
13 MS. MOELLER: These were the three houses in -- in the lower part
14 of the picture. It was in this area.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: So we're at the bottom of the picture almost as far
16 as we can be from where the HQ for the witness was.
17 MS. MOELLER: Yes, I think that would be correct.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, can you remember where you were on
19 the morning of the 26th of March?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was at the position I had
21 indicated. Do you want me to show the place again?
22 JUDGE BONOMY: I know where that is. I don't need to see it
23 again. When were you first aware that there was an allegation that over a
24 hundred males had been killed in a building into which initially certain
25 people shot and which was then set on fire?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned of it for the first time
2 in 1999, by watching the BBC. By that time, everything had been
3 completed. I saw it on TV.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, when in 1999 do you maintain that you first
5 heard of it?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once the war against NATO was
7 completed. Sometime after that.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, in the location where you were based, how many
9 others were stationed there on the morning of the 26th of March?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Six or seven.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, Mr. O'Sullivan.
12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, Your Honour. The order will be General
13 Lukic, General Pavkovic, General Ojdanic, Mr. Milutinovic, Mr. Sainovic,
14 and General Lazarevic.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, although I do have questions, Mr.
17 Ackerman has asked to precede me in the ordering, which I have agreed to,
18 so I'll be going after Mr. Ackerman.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:
22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. You were shown a -- a video a little while back of a telephone
25 conversation between you and a woman in Sarajevo, and when asked about it,
1 you said that that was part of the conversation, that it was not complete.
2 The question I have to ask you is the way it was cut or the portion that
3 was excerpted out, do you feel like that was unfair to you in any way in
4 terms of representing the conversation?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And in what way do you feel like it was unfair?
7 A. Because at the beginning, she asked me -- well, I can describe the
8 whole conversation and all the questions she asked.
9 Q. You can go ahead and do that if you'd like.
10 A. "Good afternoon, good afternoon. Sir, since you were in the area
11 of Velika and Mala Krusa between the 24th and the 29th of March 1999,
12 where some atrocities took place, what do you have to say about that? And
13 having in mind that your name was mentioned on one of the indictments of
14 The Hague Tribunal." These are the words she uttered that I remember very
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm wondering if we should be in
17 private session at this point. I don't know. I would --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, Mr. Ackerman.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm just wondering if we should be in private
20 session at this point. And I don't know. I'm -- I'm just wanting to make
21 sure we're protecting the identity of the witness, and maybe the witness
22 could tell us if he's going to tell us some things that might reveal
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, what do you have to say about that?
25 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I -- I don't see at this point any
1 reason, because I don't know where Mr. Ackerman is taking the witness.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, we're alert to it now, Mr.
3 Ackerman. I'm sorry I was momentarily distracted there, and carry on, and
4 if the problem appears to you to get any more likely, then let me know.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.
6 Q. Mr. Witness, I'll ask you to go ahead and tell us the contents of
7 that conversation, and if you feel like it's going to disclose your
8 identity in any way, then please let me know and we can go into private
10 A. Very well. Throughout the conversation, she tried to suggest that
11 I killed or we killed, and she tried to link us with the place where the
12 crime had taken place. And she kept saying, "Where you participated." So
13 the whole conversation boiled down to this "we" or "you."
14 Q. And so that was the part that was left out, is that your position?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that part that was left out, she was making specific
17 accusations against you; is that correct?
18 A. Now that I saw the footage again, and I realise this was edited by
19 a journalist, what I think is that they were trying to provoke me into
20 saying something that would benefit them. That's why they tried to
22 Q. All right. Is there anything else you want to tell us about that
23 interview that you thought might have been unfair to you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. In your statement, on page 4 you talk about being promoted to the
1 rank of corporal, and what you say about that was you were promoted. It
2 was for "recognition for being brave, sacrificing myself for my country,
3 and for exceptional achievements during NATO bombing of Kosovo."
4 When you talk about recognition for being brave, could you
5 describe for us what it was that you did that you felt was bravery, that
6 was recognised as bravery?
7 A. The promotion I received after the war in 1999 pertained to my
8 overall participation in the operations in Kosovo during 1998 and 1999.
9 It wasn't linked to one event specifically.
10 Q. Were -- were there times during your participation in Kosovo where
11 you were under enemy fire?
12 A. Yes, and almost in all operations. Not almost, in all operations.
13 Q. All right. I take it it's the case that you didn't expel any
14 Kosovo Albanians from their homes and force them to leave the country, did
16 A. No.
17 Q. And you would have reported anyone that you saw doing that,
18 wouldn't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You didn't kill any innocent Albanian civilians, did you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You'd have reported anyone you saw doing that, wouldn't you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You didn't kill or mistreat any prisoners, did you?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And you would report it if you had discovered that that was
2 happening, wouldn't you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you didn't shoot at any people in any villages who were not
5 shooting at you, and you would have reported anyone you saw doing that,
6 too, wouldn't you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, in your statement, you talk about a deployment at a place
9 call Jablanica, and you describe that deployment as desperate and useless.
10 Would I be correct in assuming that was because your unit was so heavily
11 outnumbered by the KLA forces there you could accomplish nothing at that
13 A. As for desperate, I didn't say desperate. I even said for the
14 record that it was not an appropriate interpretation. But as for their
15 forces at Jablanica, they outnumbered and outgunned us by far when we were
16 doing that operation, and that's why it wasn't successful.
17 Q. All right. Thank you. I want to talk to you very briefly about
18 the, I think, one or two times when you talked about the VJ being involved
19 in cooperating in the deployments that you were involved in. In all
20 cases, the -- the cooperation of the VJ was to provide heavy weaponry,
21 artillery, and tanks; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you never saw that heavy weaponry used against civilians in
24 any way, did you?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You never saw that VJ weaponry fired against any targets other
2 than those that were firing at you. Isn't that true?
3 A. It is.
4 Q. And isn't it a fact that -- that all the activity you saw on the
5 part of the VJ was honourable and correct activity for an army at war?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. At Velika and Mala Krusa, although you described it, there were VJ
8 vehicles there, tanks and others, they did not fire those weapons at all
9 at Velika and Mala Krusa, did they?
10 A. No. No. In that operation, they did not.
11 Q. What the VJ did there was sit in a very small sector of that road
12 and do nothing, and you didn't even see the soldiers get out of their
13 vehicles, did you?
14 A. Well, I did see them. We were their support, because they did not
15 have enough infantry.
16 Q. All right. You -- you indicated in your statement that this --
17 this compound where you were located, that you were using that camp
18 compound to shelter your vehicles and protect them from NATO air activity.
19 Do you remember saying that in your testimony in another trial here?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. What, if anything, was the VJ doing with regard to the -- the
22 equipment they had there to protect it from NATO attack?
23 A. They used camouflage.
24 Q. All right. Now, the unit you were in throughout the time that you
25 were part of that unit was engaged only in anti-terrorist actions and not
1 in activity against civilian populations. Isn't that true?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. There was a -- a moment in -- in the Milosevic trial where you
4 were asked, speaking of refugees that you had observed, you were asked by
5 the Prosecution this question: "Is it right that you and some of your
6 colleagues made provision for some of those people to have water where
7 otherwise they would not have had water?" And you said this: "I don't
8 understand why they wouldn't have had water otherwise. We policemen were
9 there. They were our citizens, and they got water."
10 That's what you said; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you said "they were our citizens" because you viewed them as
13 fellow citizens, didn't you? As victims of the KLA who were your fellow
14 citizens; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that view of yours that you've just expressed was a common
17 view among the people you served with in your unit, wasn't it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I have one more thing to talk to you about just in fairness to
20 you, sir.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: And to do that I'd like to go into private session,
22 Your Honour, for the protection of the identity of this witness.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We shall go into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 4719-4721 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
8 Q. Good day, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I'm one of the
9 attorneys representing Sreten Lukic in these proceedings, and I have a
10 number of questions to ask you today to try to clarify the testimony that
11 you gave in your statement in the Milosevic proceedings and here over the
12 past two days.
13 Now, first of all, one of the things you mentioned here in the
14 past two days was there were questions posed to you regarding Frenki's men
15 or the JSO. Just so I can be clear, when we're talking about the
16 deployment of your unit to the Mala Krusa area, am I correct that these
17 units, that is to say the JSO, to your knowledge did not participate in
18 this operation; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And in any event, when we're talking about the JSO, that is
21 a unit that falls under the jurisdiction of the state security services.
22 That would be the RDB; is that correct? The RDB.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And as -- as part of the RDB, that is in Serbian, the Resor Dzavne
25 Bezbednosti, the JSO and indeed all state security units were separate and
1 apart from the public security division or department of the MUP of the
2 Republic of Serbia; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: But still within the MUP. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. All right. Now I'd like to clarify some issues with respect to
9 the organisation that you were a member of, the PJP. Now, first of all,
10 sir, from your statement I gather that you became a member of your SUP,
11 your secretariat's PJP detachment after completing the necessary training;
12 is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And even after completing your training to become a PJP member,
15 you remained an ordinary traffic policeman in the secretariat or the SUP
16 of the city where you were based; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And at all times you and other members of the PJP would perform
19 your regular duties, in your case as a traffic policeman, but would be
20 then called upon to undertake security detail for specific tasks involving
21 greater risk; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And -- so that is to say the PJP is not the same thing as the SAJ.
24 The PJP is not a Special Police Unit whose members are permanently tasked
25 in carrying out special or anti-terrorist activities, is it?
1 A. Right.
2 Q. And am I correct in stating that the purpose of the PJP, when it
3 is deployed, is to prevent major disruptions of public order and peace and
4 in addition to preventing the infiltration of terrorists, includes such
5 things as attendance at public demonstrations, football matches and
6 rallies and to provide public security, that is to say, regular police
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now -- now, in relation to your PJP detachment, and if you have
10 knowledge of any other PJP detachments prior to 1999 and -- or let's --
11 prior to 1999, did you have occasion to be engaged in preserving the
12 public peace and order at other venues, including sports matches or other
13 public gatherings that presented a higher concentration of people in other
14 places within the Republic of Serbia, such as Belgrade, Novi Sad, et
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So that is to say the PJP was not a type of unit that was
18 specifically organised and only utilised to address the security concerns
19 in Kosovo and Metohija, was it?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. And when you would be called up and deployed as a PJP unit and
22 deployed in such cities as Belgrade, Novi Sad, or some other Serbian city,
23 your armaments would be similar to those you had on the ground in Kosovo.
24 Isn't that also right?
25 A. Yes, absolutely the same.
1 Q. And regardless of when you were deployed at sporting events in
2 Belgrade or Novi Sad or in the field in Kosovo and Metohija, at all times
3 the uniforms that you, the members of the PJP wore, regardless of whether
4 they were blue camouflage or green camouflage, these uniforms were clearly
5 and unmistakenly marked as belonging to the police. Isn't that right?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. And these uniforms, including any vests or jackets, could be
8 clearly identified from a distance by anyone viewing them because they
9 were clearly identified as the police; is that correct? Based upon the
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Now, as a member of the Serbian MUP and also as a PJP member in
13 Kosovo and Metohija, you and your units never cooperated or engaged in any
14 joint actions with any paramilitary formations, did they?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And in fact, am I correct that the Serbian police had standing
17 orders to arrest and disarm and detain any and all paramilitaries that
18 were encountered on the terrain?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Now, also, when you were -- when you became a member of the
21 PJP unit, am I correct that your rank within the police force, within the
22 PJP, was identical to the rank which you had had at that same time as a
23 regular traffic policeman?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And -- and these ranks that we talk about, actually, the ranks
1 that are similar to military ranks, that is sergeant, lieutenant, colonel,
2 et cetera, these ranks were not -- did not have the same meaning within
3 the hierarchy of the police as they did in the army; is that correct?
4 A. As far as I know, yes.
5 Q. Okay. And in fact, is it accurate that -- that SUP commanders,
6 nacelnici of the SUP, were equal to one another even though they may have
7 different ranks from one another?
8 A. I don't understand the question.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: I've understood the previous answer as being that
10 the ranks were the same as military ranks in spite of your interpretation
11 of it, Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: Perhaps I'll clarify then.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. Sir, would you clarify for us -- when you said as far as I know,
16 yes, were you trying to say the ranks were the same, had the same function
17 as in the military, or as far as you know they did not have the same
18 function as in the military?
19 JUDGE BONOMY: The question was the same meaning, not the same
21 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
22 Q. Meaning.
23 A. No, they did not have the same meaning.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, it's my misunderstanding then.
25 MR. IVETIC: That's okay, Your Honour. I'm glad to have been able
1 to clarify it.
2 Q. Now, with respect to the -- with respect to the MUP, am I correct
3 that the chains of information and chains of command followed through
4 specific units and structures? Let me know if you can answer that, if you
5 can understand it. Otherwise, I'll break it down to some specifics.
6 A. That would be better.
7 Q. Okay. When we talk about the operation of your PJP unit, would it
8 be accurate to state that the lines of command and of informing flowed
9 through the PJP, that is to say you reported to PJP commanders rather than
10 to SUP commanders?
11 A. Yes. Precisely.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I believe we're at around the time of
14 the break.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. I have just one question before we do break.
16 You were asked about standing orders to arrest, disarm, and detain all
17 paramilitaries encountered on the terrain. Did you ever arrest a
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, because we did run into them.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you ever see anyone else arresting a
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never in my life have I seen
23 paramilitary formations in our territory.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour. The transcript says no because we
1 did run into them. He in fact said we did not.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you. And just one final question on
3 the same subject although it might sound slightly repetitive. Have you
4 ever heard of a police officer arresting a paramilitary?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, we have to break for 20 minutes at this stage.
7 Please stay where you are until we leave the court and then you'll be
8 shown where to wait.
9 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: We will go into closed session for the witness to
12 be brought in.
13 [Closed session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. K25, before the break we had discussed the uniforms worn by
22 the PJP, and I would like to ask you also about the uniforms worn by other
23 units of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia. With respect to the uniforms
24 worn by regular policemen and by reserve policemen, am I also correct that
25 those uniforms as well are clearly and conspicuously marked with emblems
1 and insignia so as to be readily identified as being the police of the
2 Republic of Serbia?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And if we can now talk about one of the items you discuss
5 in your statement. It starts -- it's discussed at page 20 and at page 22,
6 and that's your identification of Sreten Lukic as the commander of all MUP
7 units in Kosovo. Am I correct that you never actually were present in the
8 Pristina MUP staff and therefore have no actual first-hand knowledge of
9 how that staff operated and what its role was, do you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And am I correct that you never met Sreten Lukic while he was in
12 Kosovo at any time?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And do you have knowledge of the fact that there were several
15 other persons in Kosovo at the MUP staff, including Generals Djordjevic
16 and Stevanovic, both of whom were assistant ministers to the minister of
17 the interior Stojiljkovic? They were also in Pristina at various times.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, as far as your assertion as to what the MUP staff or the MUP
20 HQ --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you move on, is that question meant to
22 be based on what was thought to be publicly proclaimed the structure, or
23 is it based on actual presence within Kosovo?
24 MR. IVETIC: Are you asking about the question or the answer?
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, your previous questions were aimed at
1 establishing that the witness had no personal experience of Mr. Lukic ever
2 being in Kosovo. Now, I'll clarify the position myself.
3 But K25, can you tell me, did you meet any of these persons that
4 were just named in Kosovo?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. That answered the question.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. Now, the -- the assertions in your statement where you talk about
9 the operations of the MUP HQ, as you call it, and of Sreten Lukic, am I
10 correct that you have no first-hand knowledge of any of that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And in fact, as far as all regular and reserve police units
13 in a given municipality are concerned, am I correct that they fall under
14 the jurisdiction and authority of the local municipal secretariat or SUP?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And is this true upon the entire territory of the Republic of
17 Serbia, including outside of the province of Kosovo and Metohija?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And am I correct that in Kosovo, in Pristina at the time of 1998
20 and 1999, there was a Pristina secretariat or SUP that was also in
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And with respect to the PJP again, am I correct there was no
24 significant difference between the normal police salary and that of a
25 policeman who also was a member of the PJP?
1 A. There was some difference, but it was very little.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think I need to go into private
4 session. I have about five or six questions relating to his specific PJP
5 unit, and I would not like to disclose his identity to the public.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We shall go into private session to --
7 in the interests of the security of the witness.
8 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
23 Q. Now, sir, during the time period that you were deployed in Kosovo
24 and Metohija as part of your PJP unit on several occasions in 1998 and
25 1999, am I correct to say that during those deployments you had the role
1 of an ordinary policeman, that is to say, you yourself were not in any
2 command or staresina position?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And in your first deployment that you state in your
5 statement, in March of 1998, am I correct that at that time the task of
6 your PJP unit was to secure the road between Klina and Srbica due to the
7 fact that armed terrorists had cut off that road and were conducting armed
8 attacks upon any traffic, civilian or otherwise, travelling on that road?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And -- now, you have mentioned that during that portion of your
11 tasking, in that deployment, you were involved in setting up and manning
12 checkpoints on the roadway. Now, if I can ask you, sir, am I correct that
13 these checkpoints were tasked with the objective of inspection of people
14 and vehicles to uncover any weapons, drugs, stolen goods, unlicensed
15 vehicles, persons with outstanding arrest warrants, crime suspects, et
16 cetera? Is that an accurate depiction of the duties that were undertaken
17 at these police checkpoints that were established?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And while we're talking about such police checkpoints, is it a
20 fact that they were used -- that we were not only used exclusively in
21 Kosovo and Metohija at the time, was it the regular practice of the
22 traffic police in the course of their normal duties to utilise such
23 checkpoints for the same reasons and in the same fashion all across
24 Serbia, and for example, in your home city where your SUP is located and
25 where you were a traffic policeman?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And is it a fact that such traffic checkpoints are still in use
3 throughout Serbia even to this very day on a daily basis by the traffic
4 police of the Serbian MUP?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, later in 1998, your unit was again deployed in Kosovo to
7 secure and liberate the Pec-Decani road as well as the Prilep-Junik road
8 and hold a communication line by establishing checkpoints again in
9 villages of Gornji Streoci and Donji Streoci. Now, who was holding the
10 roads mentioned that you needed to liberate?
11 A. The Albanian terrorists.
12 Q. And these -- and these -- and these Albanian terrorists, how were
13 they controlling the road? Were they shooting at people? Did they have
14 checkpoints or roadblocks?
15 A. Both. They cut off road communication. They searched people and
16 vehicles. They opened fire at people and vehicles. Looted.
17 Q. Do you recall, sir, how long these Albanian terrorists had
18 controlled that area of Kosovo and Metohija, that roadway?
19 A. I don't recall.
20 Q. Do you recall what month you were deployed in Gornja Streoci and
21 Donji Streoci for the above mentioned tasks? Was it the possible that
22 this was at the end of the month of May in 1998?
23 A. I think it is possible.
24 Q. And do you recall if during that time one could not travel from
25 the city where you started out in Serbia, which I won't mention so as not
1 to bring your identity into question, am I correct that you could not
2 travel from that city into Kosovo and then go from Pec to Gornji and Donji
3 Streoci directly but rather you had to travel over Montenegro to get to
4 your location precisely because the Albanian terrorists, the UCK/KLA had
5 already blocked and disrupted the main roads from Pristina to Pec and
6 Mitrovica to Pec during that time period of approximately May, 1998?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. And while your unit held the road between Gornji and Donji
9 Streoci, did the KLA in fact engage in combat activities against your unit
10 or any other unit engaged in holding that road?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And was there a similar checkpoint on the road in the village of
14 A. I don't know where that is.
15 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Now, in the course of this deployment that we
16 are talking about in Gornji and Donji Streoci, do you know how many killed
17 or wounded policemen from your entire PJP detachment or other units that
18 manned those checkpoints, do you know how many killed or wounded policemen
19 there were?
20 A. I know there were casualties, but I don't know the exact figure.
21 Q. Okay. Now, my colleague, Mr. Ackerman, had already asked you
22 about the deployment to try and retake Jablanica. I would just like to
23 ask you with respect to that deployment, do you know -- did you -- did
24 your unit or the other units involved suffer any casualties as a result of
25 the actions -- the combat between yourselves and the armed terrorists in
1 that region?
2 A. If we are talking about Jablanica, there were no casualties on our
3 part there, but the exchange of fire was significant as far as I can
5 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, in your statement, after discussing these
6 deployments, you talk about, on page 5 of your statement, what you call
7 your "last infamous" field deployment as being the one to blockade and mop
8 up Junik and do the same with the mountain region by Junik. Now, am I
9 correct that the use of this term "infamous" by you in your statement
10 relates to the fact that a PJP position was subjected to friendly fire
11 from other forces, namely the Yugoslav army, whereby several policemen,
12 including a field commander, were killed or wounded?
13 A. When we were reading the transcript, I did mention that that was
14 not the appropriate word. It doesn't convey the meaning of what I had
15 intended to say.
16 Q. Okay. And for each of your deployments in Kosovo, is it correct
17 that your orders would be received from the various -- from within -- from
18 the various PJP commanders, the individuals we discussed previously in
19 private session?
20 A. Well, what it means, actually, is that we received orders from the
21 commander of our company.
22 Q. Okay. And is it correct -- is it correct that those orders that
23 you received from your superior officers, your commanders during your
24 deployments in Kosovo and Metohija in 1998 and 1999, am I correct that
25 your tasks were at all times to prevent terrorist attacks by the KLA
1 against civilians as well as against the MUP and the army? That is to say
2 you were protecting everyone in Kosovo from the terrorist attacks.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And am I correct that your unit never received any orders from
5 your police superiors to commit crimes against the civilians of Kosovo and
6 Metohija, did you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And in fact, am I correct that you were ordered by your superiors
9 to safeguard civilian lives at all times during the carrying out of your
10 tasks? Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, specifically, when working and manning the checkpoints that
13 we discussed previously, and in taking -- and in undertaking the other
14 operations that you took part in, am I correct that you and your unit
15 never had any orders from superiors -- your superiors, superior police
16 officers, to engage in taking away identity documents from civilians and
17 destroying them?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And looking at the transcript it looks like I need to re-ask the
20 question and -- at page 44 on line 7 because I asked a poor question that
21 the yes answer could be read both ways for.
22 Sir, did your unit ever receive any orders from your police
23 superiors to commit crimes against civilians in Kosovo?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I think that clears things up. Now, am I correct that there were
1 never any orders while manning the checkpoints or otherwise for you and
2 the other policemen that were with you to take money, jewellery, or
3 vehicles from these civilians? Is that correct?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I think I again asked a bad question. Were you ever given any
6 orders by your police superiors while manning the checkpoints to take
7 money, jewellery, or vehicles from Kosovo Albanian civilians?
8 A. No. We did not receive such orders.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, you had previously testified about the reserve --
10 reservists in Kosovo and Metohija who were assigned by the military
11 department to be in the police force. Is it a fact that due to the threat
12 of the KLA and the threat of NATO military attack against Kosovo and
13 Metohija that there was a general mobilisation covering the territory of
14 the province of Kosovo and Metohija at that time in 1999?
15 A. As far as I know, yes.
16 Q. And as part of such a general mobilisation, wouldn't it be a fact
17 that all reservists, whether army or -- whether assigned as army or police
18 reservists, would therefore have to maintain arms with them as opposed to
19 having the arms maintained in depots as was the case in Serbia proper at
20 that time?
21 A. Yes. They had to keep their weapons with them.
22 Q. Okay. And --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one thing. Was the general mobilisation
24 actually confined to Kosovo?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. Now, I believe that in your direct examination you had said that
4 you thought all the reservists were assigned to the local police. Am I
5 correct that as a matter of fact you saw the persons, particularly in
6 Velika and Mala Krusa, wearing all types of uniforms, not just police
7 uniforms, as you stated in page 20, paragraph seven of your statement?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And as far as reservists are concerned, am I correct that uniforms
10 are issued to them, and they have those uniforms at all times, even when
11 they are not called up by the military district and assigned to a
12 particular role as part of a mobilisation? That is to say that persons in
13 the reserve maintain their uniforms at their home even at times when they
14 are not part of the active deployment of either the police or the army?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it from your earlier answers that you did
17 not regard any of the persons wearing these miscellaneous uniforms as
18 being paramilitaries. You regarded them all as part of regular forces or
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. And as a follow-up to that: When you saw persons wearing these
24 various uniforms, since you were not from the region and did not know
25 anyone personally, you just assumed that these were members of the various
1 legitimate local forces; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. And --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: I would like to be clear about that. You're now
5 saying something different. You're saying you just assumed that these
6 people were members of legitimate local forces. Did you have any reason
7 to doubt that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The local SUP, that is the
9 local policemen who participated with us in our operation, were drawn in
10 with exact positions on our maps that we received, so that I can't say
11 that I doubted, because I knew that they were policemen from SUP Prizren.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: And are these the people you're referring to as
13 wearing a variety of uniforms?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were people who passed by in
15 military uniforms, but to our right was the army of Yugoslavia with their
16 troops, so that they belonged to the army.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, if I may assist. On page 20, he
19 doesn't really say that the reservists were wearing a variety of uniforms.
20 He specifies, rather, which kind of uniforms the MUP reservists wore and
21 which the VJ reservists wore as far as I can see.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. You're referring to page 20 of the statement,
23 I take it.
24 MS. MOELLER: Yes.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry?
1 MS. MOELLER: I thought that's what my learned colleague referred
3 JUDGE BONOMY: No. He has already had an answer from the witness
4 that people in Velika Krusa and Mala Krusa were wearing all sorts of
5 uniforms, and it's on that that he's followed through and on that that
6 I've asked a few questions. If you need to, you can deal with it in
8 Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. The three individuals, I believe you had said they were masked
11 individuals in the police uniforms who you saw robbing various civilians
12 on the roadway and whom your -- whom your commander confronted and tried
13 to stop. Am I correct that those individuals drove away in a vehicle that
14 was not a regular police vehicle?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And am I also correct that these persons, again these masked
17 persons in police uniforms, they were not operating a checkpoint, were
19 A. That was the position of the local police.
20 Q. Okay. Now --
21 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I have a question here. Now, you had a mandate to
22 arrest people who indulged in such an activity. Why didn't you arrest
23 them when they were not the regular persons? They were driving a vehicle
24 which didn't belong to the police. Why didn't you arrest them?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they trained their guns at
1 us, and we trained our guns at them, and there would have been casualties
2 if we had done that. However, we did inform SUP Prizren, and sometimes
3 it's not good to run such risks, because on the other hand we were facing
4 a complete blockade, and we were subjected to terrorist action, and we
5 could not afford to enter into conflict with them.
6 MR. IVETIC:
7 Q. And in fact there were civilians around you who would have been
8 caught in the crossfire if there had been shooting. Is that also correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did these three persons, these masked persons in police uniforms,
11 did they then run away or escape? Is that the manner in which they got
12 into the vehicle or --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Or -- okay. Now, if I can direct your attention --
15 A. All -- all the time we had our guns trained at one another.
16 Q. Okay. Now, if I can draw your attention now to your deployment,
17 to the time of your deployment in Mala Krusa again, and specifically to
18 the instructions given by your overall commander. Did you personally
19 eyewitness the orders given by the commander, or were they conveyed to you
20 by your ceta, commander?
21 A. The commander of our company conveyed that to us, told us.
22 Q. Okay. Is it correct that the orders as conveyed to you were that
23 you were instructed by your superior officers in the police to offer
24 protection to any civilian villagers that chose to leave the village, as
25 well as to offer protection to civilians who chose to stay in the
1 villages? Do you recall that?
2 A. I don't remember that I received such an order, but generally
3 speaking, that is our duty, our regular duty, and I don't see why that
4 would have to be told expressly.
5 Q. In fact, that was understood and the regular duty of the police in
6 any operation; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That is a duty that arises under the law of the Republic of
9 Serbia; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And so am I correct that such a duty to afford protection to
12 civilians, this would have been offered by your unit and the other police
13 equally to both Albanian and Serb villagers? Is that correct?
14 A. I don't think I really understood the interpretation. Could the
15 interpreters repeat, please.
16 Yes. Yes.
17 Q. And just to clarify by that, I mean there -- there was no
18 distinction between how the Serb civilians or how the ethnic Albanian
19 civilians or even how any ethnicity of civilians was -- was to be treated?
20 A. Yes, of course.
21 Q. And while the operation was under way in the areas of Velika Krusa
22 and Mala Krusa, am I correct that the civilians that did leave those
23 villages were directed towards safety? That is to say they were directed
24 towards an area outside the zone of operations for their safety?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And was that so these civilians would not get caught in the
2 crossfire between the KLA forces and the Serb forces?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, in your statement you have described the operation in Mala
5 Krusa as a "mop-up" operation. Based upon your knowledge of the
6 activities of the police forces of the Republic of Serbia, am I correct in
7 concluding that such operations are aimed at mopping up or clearing an
8 area of terrorists and are not, in fact, directed against the civilian
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And is it also true, drawing upon your experience in other parts
12 of Serbia, is it also true that a mop-up operation would also be carried
13 out in other cities such as Belgrade or Novi Sad in order to remove any
14 organised concentration of criminals from a given area?
15 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Has he the capacity to answer this question being
16 a person at the lower echelons, as you yourself --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE CHOWHAN: -- put it to him?
19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I believe he indicated he had been
20 deployed as part of a PJP unit to other cities. So I asked him to draw
21 upon that experience if in fact those operations were carried out in other
22 cities aimed at criminals. I can ask the gentleman to explain if in fact
23 that -- I can ask him if in fact he participated in such operations.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Please do that, Mr. Ivetic.
25 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
1 Q. Did you participate in any operations outside of the republic
2 of -- pardon, the province of Kosovo and Metohija that were termed mop-up
4 A. Yes, in the environs of Subotica when we had a serial killer, we
5 did the same clearing of terrain or combing of terrain looking for that
6 killer. In this case it was an individual, but that was the same kind of
7 operation, and the whole PJP was engaged.
8 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Now, were you familiar or --
9 were you familiar with a tactic of the armed terrorists in Kosovo, the
10 KLA, removing their uniforms and discarding their weapons and dressing in
11 civilian clothes to try and escape detection and get through Serbian
13 A. Yes, and they did that all the time.
14 Q. And am I correct that in this operation, the operation at Velika
15 Krusa, Mala Krusa, the local Prizren police were therefore endowed with
16 the duty to seek out and identify potential KLA amongst any of the
17 civilians based first on the information of their local RDB security
18 organs and by performing a triage to filter such people out from amongst
19 the legitimate civilians so they could be detained, arrested, and
20 subjected to the appropriate judicial proceedings?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the source of your knowledge about that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our order that we received when
24 performing operations. We received a map where it was indicated where the
25 checkpoint of the local police was and where the possible captives should
1 be directed. And when refugee convoys started moving, they told us to
2 send them towards the local SUP which would check whether there were any
3 terrorists amongst them, because they knew almost all the people.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: Yes. Thank you.
6 Q. Now -- now, apart -- excuse me. Apart from the incident with the
7 three masked men who were trying to rob the civilians that your unit
8 stopped and the incident with the -- with the three men wearing police
9 uniforms whom you handed over the persons wearing the KLA uniforms, am I
10 correct that you did not witness any other criminal acts being undertaken
11 by anyone wearing a police uniform as part of this operation?
12 A. Correct. I did not observe.
13 Q. And dealing with these two incidents, am I correct that at all
14 times you saw no more than three total individuals wearing police uniforms
15 engaged in such acts?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Okay. Now, if I can have Exhibit P1326 brought up. This should
18 be one of the items that the witness looked at yesterday.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: We certainly had -- oh, yes, we did have 1326.
20 MR. IVETIC:
21 Q. Now, sir, you previously talked about the picture which is
22 labelled number 4 in this photograph, and I wanted to ask you about the
23 brown belt that is being worn by this individual in this picture. Is that
24 brown belt a part of the regular uniform of the Serbian police when it is
25 operating on the terrain?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And is that the reason why you identified this photograph
3 yesterday as probably being a police reservist?
4 A. Yes, and the fact that the man is not shaven.
5 Q. Does the Serbian MUP have such brown belts in the inventory of its
6 official equipment, it's official uniforms, brown leather?
7 A. As far as I know, no.
8 Q. And if I can ask you, based upon your knowledge and experience,
9 did you have any knowledge of incidents or reports of persons who misused
10 uniforms, that is to say the illegitimate use of police and other uniforms
11 by criminals on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija?
12 A. Yes. We heard such cases. In fact, I heard about such cases
13 wherein Albanians wore our uniforms trying to attract the attention of our
14 forces, and sometimes that resulted in exchanges of fire, and I believe in
15 one case in the death of one policeman.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, as far as the -- as far as your other
17 deployments, that is to say the deployments preceding your deployment to
18 Mala Krusa and your deployments after Mala Krusa, am I correct that during
19 none of these deployments did you witness any criminal acts carried out
20 against Kosovo Albanian civilians by your fellow policemen?
21 A. No, I did not witness that.
22 Q. Okay. And with respect to -- one moment. I need to find a
23 reference here. I don't have the reference in front of me, but in the
24 Milosevic proceedings, I believe you had testified that you were not
25 certain whether you had reported the -- the discovery of the bodies in the
1 house, and you yesterday testified that you had in fact reported it to
2 your unit or ceta, commander. Do you in fact actually know whether you
3 reported that and a report was generated, or do you not know whether in
4 fact a report was generated?
5 A. In the previous trial and in this trial, I said that we informed
6 the company commander about the incidents, but I can't remember exactly
7 when, whether it was on the same day or the following day, because the man
8 was constantly going back and forth across our positions, and he was not
9 always there with us. But I know that he also informed the commander of
10 the 23rd detachment in writing. And when, I couldn't say.
11 Q. All right. Now, sir, with -- I asked this question because
12 yesterday, the Trial Chamber was interested in the precise date that you
13 were -- that you ceased your employment with the MUP. With -- I don't
14 need to go -- know all the details of your employment, but am I correct
15 that your -- the cessation of your employment within the MUP was not in
16 any way tied to your testifying in the Milosevic proceedings?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Could you clarify? Was it -- was your cessation of employment
19 within the MUP tied to your testimony in the Milosevic proceedings?
20 A. No, it wasn't.
21 Q. Okay. And in fact, when you were first approached by the
22 Prosecutors of this Tribunal, isn't it a fact that you actually advised
23 your police superiors and reported them -- reported to them that in fact
24 you were speaking with the Prosecutor's office? That is to say, it was
25 not -- it was not a secret.
1 A. It was not. I informed them also in 1999 when that journalist
2 contacted me.
3 Q. And in fact, specifically with respect to your discussions with
4 the Office of the Prosecutor, isn't it correct that the Serbian MUP and
5 the Serbian authorities gave you the authorisation to talk freely with the
6 Office of the Prosecutor and even excused you from having to keep any
7 state secrets?
8 A. In principle, that is correct.
9 Q. Okay. Well, sir, I thank you for assisting me here today.
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I'm completed with this witness.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Sepenuk.
12 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.
16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask a few questions by
17 way of clarification.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, well, I can't really address you with a K
20 and a number, but let us try and move on. My name is Toma Fila and I
21 wanted to assist you in trying to clarify the call-ups in Serbia and
22 Kosovo in times of peace and war. I wanted to ask you this: What are the
23 criteria when the reserve is being mobilised? For example, when you were
24 after that serial killer, who was called up?
25 A. Well, when we were after him there was no call-up.
1 Q. What is the criteria, then, when you are called up in peacetime to
2 serve with the reserves? What sort of a person is being called up?
3 A. Without any criminal offences and convictions, and with at least a
4 high school degree.
5 Q. This means that it is being carefully considered as to who will be
6 chosen so that they wouldn't disregard the dignity of the uniform.
7 A. Yes. And some inquiries would usually be made at his working
8 place and with the neighbours.
9 Q. But there was a difference with Kosovo, so can you explain to us
10 what type of people were called up there?
11 A. The local Serbs, because they were the only ones who were able to
13 Q. So the criteria by that time were gone?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can we use this to explain the three people mentioned and that
16 these people had no respect for the uniforms such as the one you had and
17 the people in your unit?
18 A. Yes. We might say that.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Bakrac.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will be
23 very brief.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. My name is Mihajlo Bakrac,
1 counsel for General Lazarevic. My learned friends basically exhausted all
2 the topics I was interested in, but there is one left and I will have a
3 few questions for you.
4 In your statement and yesterday during examination-in-chief, you
5 stated that in the second half of 1998 the only operation in which VJ
6 support was provided to your unit was the MUP operation in Junik.
7 First of all, I'd like to know whether it is correct if I say that
8 Junik is 5 to 6 kilometres away from the state border with Albania.
9 A. Yes, it is correct.
10 Q. It is also correct that the closest border post is Kosare, which
11 on several occasions was taken by the Albanian terrorists?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Am I also correct in assuming that Junik, at the time of the
14 operation, was one of the major strongholds, well-fortified, of the
15 Albanian terrorists?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Am I also correct to assume that at the time of the operation
18 there were over 1.000 Albanian terrorists in Junik?
19 A. As far as I know, there were supposed to have been around 3.500.
20 Q. Having in mind the facts you've just confirmed and having in mind
21 the figure, and the fact that this was an important stronghold, am I right
22 in saying that the howitzer support from the Radonjic Lake was very
23 necessary to break the resistance and to secure the state border towards
25 A. Yes. We were supported for 21 days by four tanks as well, and
1 this was not successful.
2 Q. Therefore, for 21 days, this is how long the combat lasted.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. My last question is this: Did you know, sir, that after that
5 operation in Junik foreign diplomats toured Junik and verified the results
6 of the operation?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Ms. Moeller.
12 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Re-examination by Ms. Moeller:
14 Q. Just a couple of issues. Going back to the issue of civilian
15 vehicles being used. On page 12 of your statement, you talk about the
16 trucks and buses that were used to transport away the civilian population
17 from the area, and you state there that these were civilian trucks and
18 buses. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes. When our company set out, the vehicles were given to us for
20 use, but issues -- certificates were issued, so the company took over the
21 vehicles and we were able to use them.
22 Q. I think we talked about two different kinds of vehicles now.
23 You're talking about the vehicles that brought you into Kosovo?
24 A. Yes. In the statement as well I describe that we received
25 civilian vehicles from the ministry of the interior, and they were
1 provided by various state and private companies. They did not have --
2 have any Ministry of the Interior insignia, but they were used for our
3 needs, and that could have taken place anywhere.
4 Q. Thank you. That's helpful. But I was actually referring to the
5 buses that came to help transport out the civilians out of the combat
6 zone, and I just want to clarify whether we understand correctly that
7 these buses only came after you and your unit called the SUP Prizren about
8 the huge number of -- of refugees that were arriving at the location and
9 that these buses that were then sent were indeed civilian vehicles as
11 A. The first information of the arrival of refugees was received by
12 the Prizren SUP. They told us where we should concentrate them, and they
13 said they would provide transport. We put them all at the train station
14 in Velika and Mala Krusa, and then we provided transport on civilian
15 buses. They were manned by reserve policemen and professional policemen,
16 and there were also some people in civilian clothes as well as some of the
17 people in our uniforms.
18 Q. Thank you. And you explained further in your statement that the
19 police had actually in this situation the right to commandeer civilian
20 vehicles and use them for such operations, right, and that this was done?
21 A. Yes, but I've explained that as part of the previous question.
22 Q. And the VJ would have the same right to commandeer vehicles, would
23 they, in this particular situation?
24 A. I can only assume that it is so, but I am not certain. In times
25 of war, this is possible, I guess.
1 Q. Now, going to the questions of the insignias worn on PJP uniforms.
2 The issue was raised that PJP policemen would be easily distinguishable
3 from the insignias. We looked at the insignia yesterday in Exhibit P1323.
4 Where was this badge that we looked at, where would this badge be located
5 on the uniforms?
6 A. It was on the left and the right side.
7 Q. And approximately how big was such a badge in terms of centimetres
8 or ...
9 A. Say 15 or 20 centimetres. I don't know.
10 Q. And were there any other insignia that you would wear?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And you say in your statement on page 15 in relation to the
13 incident where you encountered these policemen who were trying to rob
14 civilians, that your commander on this occasion wore his ranks but that he
15 didn't wear them all the time. So would you wear your insignia all the
16 time, or would you also in combat situations wear different kinds of
17 insignia or less than in other situations?
18 A. In this case, it is not the question of our insignia but of rank.
19 Snipers were going for high -- higher-ranking officers. That's why we did
20 not wear rank.
21 Q. So it was usual that higher-ranking officers would not be
22 recognisable as such because they would not always wear their ranks in the
24 A. None of us wore any rank insignia. And actually, we took them
25 off. They were unimportant.
1 Q. Now, we -- my learned colleague Mr. Ivetic also talked with you
2 about the role and the function of the PJP and the kind of training that
3 you received. Is it correct that the people who delivered the training to
4 the PJP included VJ military personnel as well?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And is it also correct -- were you also instructed on the use of
7 specific weapons that would usually used only in combat situations?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you state which kind of weapons you were trained at?
10 A. Anti-personnel mines, the Wasp and Zolja rocket launchers and the
11 Browning machine-guns.
12 Q. So would it be logical to draw the inference from this training
13 that to participate in combat operations was also one of the roles of the
14 PJP that was envisaged for such units?
15 A. In principle, yes.
16 Q. Now, you were also asked questions about civilians leaving the
17 area of the operation and whether any documents were taken from such
18 people. You say in your statement that you saw approximately 5.000 people
19 or even more passing through this main road during the time you were
20 deployed in this area; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you had the instruction to hand these people over to the MUP;
23 is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And then they would take further care of them?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So do you actually know what happened to these people after you --
3 you handed them over to the MUP?
4 A. I know they were transported by buses, but not more than that.
5 Q. Did you know where they were transported to?
6 A. No. It was in the direction of Prizren.
7 Q. Okay. So you cannot say whether at any later point actually
8 documents were taken from these people, can you?
9 A. I cannot.
10 Q. You also say in your statement, and it's page 11 in the English
11 version, that you heard stories about forcible removal of people and --
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour. I think I have to object. I don't
13 think that the statement is what is the subject of redirect. I think what
14 was in the cross-examination that would have to be the subject of
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, what's the issue that arises from
18 MS. MOELLER: The issue is people were possibly expelled, and I
19 think Mr. Ackerman asked the witness in the beginning of his
20 cross-examination whether he ever recognised people being forcibly
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that's not exactly right. I asked him if he
23 ever did that, and he said he didn't. And if he saw anyone doing it would
24 he report it, and he said he would. That's exactly what I asked and what
25 was answered. I don't think that's raised, this issue.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think the Prosecution are entitled to
2 clarify the issue that Ms. Moeller identifies. I don't think the way to
3 do it is immediately in asking the witness about the issue to direct his
4 attention to his statement. Let's have open questions in re-examination
5 and then if necessary the statement can be used to confront him.
6 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours. I'll try my best.
7 Q. Sir, did you talk to -- did you talk to some of the civilians of
8 these 5.000 civilians that passed along the street during the time you
9 were there? For instance, when you organised to have them given water.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did they tell you how -- how they came to be there in the
12 location where you met them?
13 A. They told different stories.
14 Q. And what kind of stories would they tell?
15 A. That we forced them out, that the KLA attacked them, that they
16 were being bombed. They were telling all sorts of stories.
17 Q. Now, another question put to you in cross-examination concerned
18 the reserve forces, and you -- that was when my learned colleague Mr. Fila
19 asked you, and you gave an answer to the extent saying only local Serbs
20 could help, could be part of the reserve forces in Kosovo. Why couldn't
21 loyal non-Serbs and any other ethnicities living in Kosovo be called up
22 into the reserve, which I understood was also part of -- called up partly
23 to prepare for a potential NATO attack? Why couldn't they be in the local
25 A. Because they were not considered as being trustworthy. They
1 couldn't have been engaged by our side. And they also asked not to be.
2 There was not a single loyal Albanian who could have said, "Please, do
3 mobilise me," at that time.
4 Q. Okay. Another issue raised was the issue of people putting on
5 uniforms of a unit they didn't belong to. Did you ever notice or know
6 about Serb forces sometimes putting on KLA uniforms in operations to get
7 closer to them in a strategic way?
8 A. No, I don't know of such a thing.
9 Q. Now, the last issue. You were asked about some events shortly
10 after you were contacted for the first time by the Tribunal. After the
11 Tribunal contacted you and wanted you to testify here the first time, were
12 you ever called in a meeting where representatives (redacted)
14 A. Yes, they were.
15 Q. And who called that meeting?
16 A. In 1999, they asked me to come once I had told them that I was
17 contacted by journalists.
18 Q. And can you describe how that meeting went along? Who was
20 A. I rather wouldn't, if I may refuse to answer.
21 MS. MOELLER: Can we maybe go into private session, and the
22 witness may be able to tell us more about this event.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It will be the same.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: What's your reason for refusing to answer?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are no reasons. I will reply.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you wish to do so in private session?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We'll go into private session because
4 the witness seems concerned about his security.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 4760-4762 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
11 Page 4764 redacted.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. We'll go into private session.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 4766-4767 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, who is the next witness?
13 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, the next witness is K24, also a
14 protected witness who will be handled in closed session with a pseudonym.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: So when the court resumes after this break, we will
16 resume in closed session with the witness already in place. All right.
17 So thank you, K25, for your evidence. The Court will now rise and
18 resume again at 20 minutes past 6.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 5.52 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 6.24 p.m.
21 [Closed session]
11 Pages 4769-4788 redacted. Closed session.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.14 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Friday, the 13th day
20 of October, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.