1 Tuesday, 17 October 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 WITNESS: RAHIM LATIFI [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Latifi. Please be seated.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to all.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Your examination by Mr. Visnjic will now continue.
11 Please remember that the solemn declaration which you made at the very
12 beginning of your evidence continues to apply to that evidence today also.
13 Mr. Visnjic.
14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic: [Continued]
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Latifi.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. Mr. Latifi, yesterday we left off when we were discussing the
19 kidnapping of Ymer Xhafiqi. Could we please have on e-court D140 page 2.
20 Mr. Latifi, I'll try to refresh your memory by reading a portion
21 of the exhibit. This is another Kosovo verification mission
22 report. "Albanian workers [Previous translation continues] ... police as
23 a civil servant was kidnapped in the village of Pirana this morning.
24 According to police sources he was not connected with operational matters.
25 The KLA have indirectly confirmed their involvement in the matter although
1 at this stage the reasons for the abductions are still unclear."
2 [Interpretation] Mr. Latifi, does this refresh your recollection
3 concerning the fact that the KLA was involved in the abduction of Rahim
4 Latifi [sic] after all?
5 A. I said yesterday that I had heard that he was kidnapped but I
6 didn't know who kidnapped him. How can I refresh my recollection
7 because -- when I did not hear about this event and I told you that I did
8 not hear who kidnapped him.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a clarification.
11 I asked about two abductions yesterday, of the witness. One was a person
12 by the name of Hajer Tarjani and that took place in 1998 during the
13 summer. The other person that we mentioned just a second ago, Ymer
14 Xhafiqi, was kidnapped on the 9th of March 1999. According to witness
15 statements, both bodies were found at a later stage, but people were dead.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Latifi, let us move on to an area from the Milosevic
17 case. During the cross-examination there, at page 3649 to 3652, you
18 provided answers concerning several incidents which resulted in the
19 murders of some people, and according to Milosevic's allegations, these
20 murders were committed by the KLA. My question is this: When being
21 proofed for this testimony, did you go through your testimony in the
22 Milosevic case again and do you have anything to add concerning your
23 replies provided about the murders of these people which according to the
24 allegations were committed by the KLA?
25 A. With regard to the first case, Hajer Tarjani was found, so his
1 body was found, while Ymer Xhafiqi has not been found yet. With regard to
2 the second case, that the KLA is alleged to have kidnapped them, you are
3 saying that. I don't know about that.
4 Q. I apologise, Mr. Latifi. I wanted to know this. While testifying
5 in Milosevic, he asked a series of questions of you, specifying the names
6 of persons allegedly killed by the KLA and this does not comprise the two
7 men from your village. I don't know whether you can recollect that, but
8 should it be necessary, I can assist you with that. Do you remember
9 Milosevic having asked you about the murders of both Serbs and Albanians
10 which took place in the vicinity of your village or rather in its general
12 A. Yes, I remember vaguely.
13 Q. Would it be fair to say that most of those murders, apart from
14 one, you stated that you were not familiar or rather that you didn't know
15 of those murders?
16 A. I was not aware of those murders but you're mentioning one person.
17 What case is that, according to you?
18 Q. You were able to or rather you heard of the murder of Zvesdal
19 Tasic. As for the other Serbs and Albanians that had been killed, you
20 said you didn't know about that. Very well.
21 In the Milosevic case, on page 3649, you also stated you didn't
22 know anything about the existence of the KLA in the area of Pirana,
23 Retimlje and Randobrava; is that correct?
24 A. I said that there was no KLA in Pirana. In Randobrava, I did not
25 see any KLA. I don't think I spoke anything about Reti and there was no
1 KLA in Serbica.
2 Q. You didn't mention that but Milosevic asked you this at page 3649.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 3694.
4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. On that same page you stated, and this is at page 3694, line 3.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on. The Milosevic transcript that we have
7 doesn't go to page 3694.
8 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think the interpreter's correction got wrong in
9 the transcript. It's 3649.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I can't see it on 3649.
11 MR. MARCUSSEN: The question is at 3648.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I mixed up the
14 numbers. 3649, the actual answer I was looking for is at page 3649, line
16 Q. Mr. Latifi, I wanted to ask you the following: Did you know that
17 as regards the territory of Randobrava and Pirana villages, there was a
18 KLA unit that was tasked with that area comprising some 50 to 70 members?
19 Do you know anything about that?
20 A. I did not hear about that and I did not see them.
21 Q. Did you know that the person commanding the unit was Xhavid
22 Elshani who was also from the village of Pirana?
23 A. I had no links with the KLA. I said that in my statement as well.
24 As regards Xhavid Elshani, I did not know or I was not aware that he was
25 some kind of a leader.
1 Q. How far is Randobrava from your village?
2 A. About five kilometres.
3 Q. Did your co-villagers hesitate to go to Randobrava for security
4 reasons? This was up until the 24th of March 1999.
5 A. I don't know. I did not ask anyone about this.
6 Q. Did you yourself go to Randobrava?
7 A. My sister is married there so I went to visit her.
8 Q. Did you know that one of the roads or paths used by the KLA was
9 the one going via the villages of Opterusha, Mamusha, Pirana, Krusha e
10 Madhe and the border with Albania? Was this a regular route used by the
11 KLA for supply and manning of its units? Do you know anything about that?
12 A. I don't know anything about the road. Maybe they did these things
13 at night but I didn't see anything. My house is at the entrance of the
14 village. I don't know about these things, this corridor that you're
15 mentioning. It was none of my business.
16 Q. Mr. Latifi, yesterday at page 85, in lines 23 through 25, you
17 stated, "Whenever we saw forces in movement, for example during the
18 Orahovac offensive, we would leave our houses for periods of up to 10
19 days." My question concerning this is the following: Did you know that
20 the inhabitants of your village, during 1999, before the 24th of March,
21 that is, would leave the village in great numbers?
22 A. During the Orahovac offensive I stayed at home. My family did not
23 leave. I didn't think it was necessary for us to leave. Some left for
24 security reasons because the forces behaved so badly, the military and
25 police forces, that they instilled fear.
1 Q. Mr. Latifi, I don't know whether you mentioned to notice but I
2 asked you about 1999. The Orahovac offensive took place in 1998.
3 Therefore my question is whether during 1999, including January, February
4 and March, before the 24th of March, that is, was there any mass movement
5 of the inhabitants of your village or, rather, out of your village? Do
6 you remember that?
7 A. During this period, I don't think I saw people leaving.
8 Q. Mr. Latifi --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move on, Mr. Visnjic, just to clarify
10 the last point. You did say yesterday that you were dealing with a
11 different point but you did say that there were periods when you did not
12 stay in your own home, and an example you gave was being away for 10 days
13 if you saw forces moving, for example during the Orahovac offensive. Now,
14 was that answer wrong?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1998, during the Orahovac
16 offensive, we moved our families for about 10 days, but not outside the
17 village, while with regard to January, February and March 1999, I don't
18 think I said anything about that.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 Mr. Visnjic.
21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Latifi, in your village, there was a branch of the LDK party
23 back in 1999. That branch was headed by a teacher from your village, am I
25 A. Yes, you're correct.
1 Q. While we are on the subject of the teacher, would I be correct in
2 saying that in your village, there was an elementary school used on an
3 equal footing by the Serbian and Albanian students up until the beginning
4 of the war; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. And there were 837 Albanian students in 32 classrooms, plus 42
7 teachers and 37 Serb students with their eight teachers, and they used the
8 classrooms that were left. Does that more or less tally with what you
9 know about that elementary school?
10 A. I don't know the exact figures but I know that there were -- there
11 was a great number of pupils. I don't know how many classes and so on but
12 I know that there were eight grades. I did not work there so I couldn't
13 know how many students or how many teachers were in the school.
14 Q. Thank you. I understand.
15 Could we please get Exhibit D138 ready?
16 Mr. Latifi, this is yet another report of the European Community
17 Monitoring Mission, 3D138. And I wanted to read out parts of that report,
18 in which the president of the local LDK notifies the monitoring mission
19 that over 80 per cent of the population - this is on page 2, paragraph 3 -
20 over 80 per cent of the population -- 85 per cent of the population, fled
21 last Saturday, fled the village, and then subsequently all of them
22 returned. The same person, in another exhibit, Exhibit 141, notified the
23 KVM that over 60 per cent of the women and children left Pirana on the 9th
24 of March. So now we have two dates, the 27th of February and the 9th of
25 March. Do you know of a reason as to why the LDK president would
1 misinform the monitoring mission as regards the majority of the population
2 having left the village?
3 A. I don't know whether he would misinform or not. It's his problem.
4 He was a leader. As far as I know, my family did not leave. My house is
5 in the outskirts of the village and maybe I didn't notice the other people
6 but he was more informed than me about these matters, of course, but there
7 was panic all the time; I can tell you that.
8 Q. I apologise, there seems to be something that needs to be
9 corrected in the transcript. At page 8, line 2 it should read the 27th of
10 February and the 9th of March. You are telling me now that on both these
11 dates there was panic in your village. Did I understand that correctly?
12 A. No. I said there was panic all the time, non-stop, because every
13 time the forces moved, people were frightened. I was frightened as well.
14 Q. Mr. Latifi, was it perhaps because, as it is stated in this report
15 in paragraph 3.2, was it because there was a claim that your village was
16 at the crossroads used by the KLA, one of the roads being from the border
17 to Opterusha and the other one being the one used by the police to patrol,
18 this being the Prizren Gjakova road? Is your village in a place where
19 there was constant contact between the police and the KLA where there were
20 ongoing incidents of the KLA attacking the police? Was that the reason,
22 A. No. I don't think that is the reason. Our village is on the
23 crossroad that links the road, Prizren Gjakova and the other road that
24 goes to Mamusha but the forces were in constant movement there. They went
25 to Gjakova to Orahovac, and with every movement of the forces, we felt
1 this panic, but I did not see any KLA forces moving.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, is that not actually consistent with
3 what the report says?
4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour. In
5 paragraph 3.2.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, it is the movement of the MUP forces that
7 seems to have caused the fleeing of the villagers.
8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] But, Your Honour, there is also
9 mention of the road used by the KLA, paragraph 3.2 in the third line.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I appreciate that but I don't read into this report
11 a statement that it's activity by the KLA that's causing people to move
12 from the village, which I presume is the point you're trying to make.
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] This is precisely what I was asking
14 the witness. Also, Your Honour, in paragraph 2.2, there is a mention of
15 the hesitation of the villagers to travel towards the village of
16 Randobrava or rather the reluctance of the villagers.
17 Q. Mr. Latifi, in the Milosevic case at page 3644, you stated that
18 you saw Prizren being bombed whilst you were in Serbica. My question is
19 this: Did you see the bombing of your village of Pirana while you were in
21 A. Prizren was not bombed. The army barracks, we learned that they
22 were bombed by NATO while on the 24th and 25th of March, Randobrava, Reti,
23 were shelled from Serbica.
24 Q. No, no, sir.
25 A. I did not say what you quoted me.
1 Q. Since you spent about a month in Serbica, during that one month,
2 did you see that the village -- your village or the area around your
3 village was bombed?
4 A. On those dates that I mentioned, yes.
5 Q. Did you know that up until the 1st of June 1999, NATO attacked
6 your village or its environs on 34 occasions?
7 A. From the 24th and up until the 26th of April, I was there. During
8 this time, I did not see any bombing in our area, in the villages around
10 Q. Tell me just one thing: How far is Serbica from Pirana?
11 A. About 2 and a half to three kilometres as the crow flies.
12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
13 questions for this witness.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: I think just to be clear about one question, Mr.
15 Visnjic, at line 7 of page 10, you asked during that one month in Serbica,
16 did you see that the village, your village or the area around your village
17 was bombed? Now, the answer was on these dates that I mentioned, yes.
18 Now if that's a reference to NATO bombing, it's not consistent with the
19 rest of the evidence. It may be it's not in fact a reference to NATO
20 bombing at all.
21 Mr. Latifi, just to clear this question, while you were in
22 Serbica, did you personally see any bombing of any part of Prizren or
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By whom? By the Serb police and
25 military forces or by NATO?
1 JUDGE BONOMY: By NATO air forces.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no bombing. Later on I
3 learned that the military barracks were bombed at Prizren.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: You told us what you heard. I'm concerned at the
5 moment to know what you saw and you saw no bombing by NATO forces of any
6 part of Prizren or Pirana?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I'm sure there was no
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 Mr. Aleksic?
11 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I have
12 no questions for this witness.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic?
14 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I have do have some questions
15 for this witness.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Latifi. My name is Djuro
18 Cepic. I'm one of the attorneys at law on the Defence team of General
19 Lazarevic. Yesterday in the course of your testimony you stated that the
20 minaret of the mosque was destroyed on the 25th of March 1999. Would I be
21 right if I said that you did not see the minaret being destroyed?
22 A. On the 24th of March, a shell fell at the mosque, and with
23 anti-aircraft Pragas, there was shelling from the bridge. On the 28th of
24 March, mines were laid at 8.00 p.m.
25 Q. I'm asking you a specific question and I would appreciate a
1 specific answer. The specific question is: Did you see the destruction
2 of the minaret, yes or no? Did you witness it?
3 A. In the morning, we saw it, but when it was mined, we didn't.
4 However, we heard the detonation.
5 Q. And I would like a specific answer. Right. Thank you. However,
6 you gave a statement, Mr. Latifi, in 1999, and on page 2 in the last
7 paragraph, you state the following: "Approximately the same time Serbs
8 started shelling the village, but luckily, there was no damage or people
9 killed." I repeat, "Luckily there was no damage or anyone killed." How
10 come that seven years later, seven years after the event and seven years
11 after this statement you had changed this statement? Did anyone suggest
12 to you what you should be saying before this Court, Mr. Latifi?
13 A. That's what you think, not me. And if the interpreters could be a
14 little bit louder.
15 Q. Do you know Hyseni Fatmir, a resident of your village?
16 A. Fatmir?
17 Q. Maybe it would refresh your memory if I said that it was a person
18 who was disarmed together with Mr. Selimi on the 1st of February 1999 in
19 the basement or rather in the cellars of Kosovo Wine company. That's
20 something that my colleague Mr. Visnjic mentioned.
21 A. [No interpretation]
22 Q. Thank you. Do you know your own co-villager, Bytyqi Xhemail?
23 A. Xhemail Bytyqi or Jemile? Is it Chimi rather than Xhemail.
24 Q. Xhemail?
25 A. No, there is no Jemile.
1 Q. Is there anyone with a similar name?
2 A. There is a Xhemail Bytyqi but not Jemile Bytyqi. This is what I
4 Q. Before I continue, line 25, page 12, we do not have the witness's
5 answer on the record.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: What is your recollection of his answer?
7 MR. CEPIC: No.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. That makes the correction.
9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. This person that you mentioned and corrected my pronunciation of
11 his name, do you know that he was arrested on the 4th of January 1999 on
12 charges of terrorism by the MUP of Serbia?
13 A. Xhemail is an uncle from my father's side but I never heard of
14 this thing.
15 Q. Mr. Latifi, you gave an additional statement to my learned friend,
16 Mr. Marcussen on the 9th of October, 2006; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In that interview, in paragraph 10, it is stated that in the last
19 days of March, 1999, you toured a number of villages looking for your
20 sister. Is that correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. I suppose those are the villages of Randobrava, lower Retimlje,
23 Velika Krusa, is that correct that those were the villages you toured
24 looking for your sister?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And further on, it is stated in this statement that the young men
2 you mentioned are considered by you to be members of the KLA, they wore
3 uniforms and carried weapons. Isn't it correct that you encountered those
4 young men on that occasion?
5 A. I encountered young men, that is true, but they were in civilian
6 clothes and they were not armed.
7 Q. Nonetheless, Mr. Latifi, quite the contrary is stated here, namely
8 that they were wearing uniforms and they were armed. And those are your
9 words, Mr. Latifi.
10 A. What I said was that in Randobrava village, in the evening, I came
11 across two persons who were armed, but the others that I saw, they were
12 unarmed. They were in civilian clothes.
13 Q. The two ones who were armed, they were wearing uniforms of the
14 so-called KLA, isn't that correct?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Thank you. Thank you for your answers.
17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further
18 questions. Thank you.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic. Mr. Marcussen?
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: Just so the record is clear, I don't have any
21 issue with what my learned friend just said. I just wanted to point out
22 that it was said that a statement was given by the witness on the 9th of
23 October. What we have disclosed is a supplemental information sheet that
24 was as a result of the proofing and I drafted that based on the video
25 proofing we had tried to conduct. Just so the record is clear. That's
1 what the witness said but it's technically not a statement that he has
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Marcussen.
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic?
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I do have some questions.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Our calculations indicate that already an hour has
8 been exhausted in cross-examination. Are you going to be long?
9 MR. LUKIC: I need at least 15, 20 minutes.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Just give us a moment, then.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: I think there is maybe a lesson to be learned from
13 this particular cross-examination about prioritising the issues. The
14 problem I think is that Mr. Visnjic has spent a lot of time on matters
15 which undoubtedly are relevant to the case and are of some importance but
16 which perhaps might be better explored and more productively explored with
17 other witnesses than with a witness who can't speak to personal knowledge
18 of documents that are being placed in front of him.
19 We recognise, however, Mr. Lukic, that you've got a quite separate
20 interest and therefore we will not prevent you from cross-examining, but
21 perhaps this illustrates the need for better coordination where possible
22 among the Defence and an indication to the Bench in advance when it's
23 anticipated that it's likely that the time normally expected for such
24 cross-examination will be exceeded. But please carry on.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Latifi, my name is Branko
3 Lukic. I will try to go through my questions that I have prepared as
4 quickly as possible.
5 You speak of the rifles that Serb forces used to set houses on
6 fire. Can you tell us exactly what kind of rifles they were?
7 A. To what I could see, it resembled a pistol, and this is
8 approximately a description because I saw it from far. He was carrying it
9 in his hand.
10 Q. Thank you. When you saw the army and the police, you activated
11 your group in charge of the evacuation of the village; is that correct?
12 A. I did not organise any group.
13 Q. Did some villagers set out to Mamusha and others to Donja Serbica?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Before that, you did have an evacuation plan for the village,
16 didn't you?
17 A. No. I was not aware of any plan of this kind. I was not informed
18 about the existence of such a plan.
19 Q. On page -- English version second page, last paragraph, Albanian
20 version, page 2, last paragraph, you say, "By then we had an evacuation
21 group that we organised ourselves so as to know what to do just in case."
22 Is that a misrepresentation of your statement?
23 A. It's not a misinterpretation of my statement. I was not involved
24 in the organisation of that group. It was a group of five or six people
25 who were monitoring the situation and what was going on in the villages
1 around us, and the movements of the Serb forces, Serb military and police
2 forces. They first noticed that there was an open corridor in the
3 direction of Mamusha but later on, that route was blocked.
4 Q. Thank you. You went to Donja Serbica and that is in fact the
5 village closest to yours, next door to Pirana?
6 A. It's closer.
7 Q. You say that policemen, around 70 of them, came to Donja Serbica
8 and started shooting at your tractors, but after the intervention of Serb
9 families, they stopped, and on that occasion, nobody was hurt; is that
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Did this group include policemen in black uniforms?
13 A. At that time, there were no members in black uniforms in this
14 group, but later on, in early April, the young men were armed and equipped
15 with uniforms, and the pretext was that they were guarding the village,
16 protecting the village from terrorists.
17 Q. Thank you. You say that in the house of Idriz Bytyci, you spent a
18 while and in Donja Serbica you spent a month. The police came there all
19 the time but never harmed you, never looked for you; is that correct?
20 A. Let us be clear one thing. We spent half of that time in Idriz's
21 house and the other half in another house. We stayed in Serbica for
22 nearly a month. It is true that the police came to Serbica and I did not
23 hear of anyone being threatened by the police. Nobody from us who had
24 moved to that village temporarily and nobody from the villagers of that
1 Q. Thank you. You say that the chief of police from Prizren came to
2 Donja Serbica and said to you that you should go to Albania, anyone who is
3 not from Serbica itself should go to Albania. You did not see the man
4 yourself; is that correct?
5 A. No. I didn't see him myself. However, two persons, Serbs from
6 Serbica, and one Albanian, spoke with him, and we were told that the order
7 is for you to get ready and by 5.00, the buses will come and escort you to
9 Q. You did not hear with your own ears what he -- his exchange with
10 those three men; is that correct?
11 A. No.
12 Q. The inhabitants of Donja Serbica, who are local residents, who
13 have their houses there, stayed in Donja Serbica regardless of ethnicity;
14 is that correct?
15 A. They stayed for another two weeks, and after these two weeks, they
16 were expelled as well.
17 Q. In the area of Donja Serbica, there had been Serb forces since the
18 end of March 1999; is that correct?
19 A. In the end of March, there were military forces, not police
20 forces, above Serbica village. They were positioned there for three or
21 four days in a row.
22 Q. In late March, you left Pirana and went to Donja Serbica; is that
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Those two villages have two, two and a half kilometres between
1 them, is that approximately the distance?
2 A. Yes, approximately.
3 Q. In your village, Pirana, were there any units of the Serb forces
4 from the 24th of March to the 25th of April 1999, more or less all the
5 time? Is that correct?
6 A. From the 24th of March to the beginning of April, there were, but
7 then they left and came back on the 26th of April, but this time there
8 were soldiers and police, mixed together, and before this date, there
10 Q. That's precisely what I'm interested in. In that time frame, in
11 that area, was there any KLA presence? In other words, after the Serb
12 forces left the area, did the KLA forces replace them?
13 A. I didn't see any.
14 Q. You say that the offensive started from the area of Donja Serbica,
15 an offensive started against Retimlje, Randobrava and Pirana, around the
16 25th of April; is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. So Serb forces were attacking the area in which they had been
19 before and which they had left, and there are no longer any Albanian
20 civilians there. Will you agree with me that it's not logical that those
21 forces would attack fields and woods empty of people?
22 A. Well, what you're saying, it's not logical, but I didn't see any
23 KLA soldier there and what I saw was that Albanian houses were set on fire
24 on that day, and those who had not been burned earlier, they were burnt as
1 Q. Is it then your testimony today that Serb forces launched an
2 offensive against empty Albanian houses?
3 A. Personally, I didn't see any at that time, and it was impossible
4 to go to the village on the 25th and 26th in order to verify or confirm
5 what was going on there. It was impossible.
6 Q. The position of our Defence team is that it was impossible to go
7 there and inasmuch as that is concerned, we agree with you. However, it
8 was impossible in our opinion because of the intensive fighting between
9 the KLA and Serb forces in that area. Is that correct?
10 A. I did not see any. I did not see who they were fighting with.
11 Q. Thank you. Further in your statement you say that six members of
12 one family were killed in Randobrava village. You corrected that later
13 because you said first they were travelling on a tractor and then you said
14 in that convoy there were no tractors, everybody walked. You did not see
15 this incident. Instead, you were told of it by young men from Randobrava,
16 that you later designated as possible members of the KLA; is that correct?
17 A. We saw the bodies in the stream. I was not present when they were
18 killed, but we saw the bodies and they were killed by shelling. While
19 this young man, he was a civilian, and he told me about another person who
20 was killed. He was not a soldier.
21 Q. All right. If some time is left we'll come back to that. Later
22 on, they were collected by members of the KLA; is that correct?
23 A. I did not see who collected the bodies. Maybe they did, but I did
24 not see them. But I would say this: Some young people from Randobrava
25 helped bury those bodies. We also went to Krusha e Mahde and together
1 with this group of young men, we buried the bodies in Krusha e Mahde.
2 Q. Mr. Latifi, in your statement, in the English version, that is
3 page 3, paragraph 9. In the Albanian this is page 3, last paragraph, and
4 in the B/C/S, page 4, first paragraph, you state, "I saw that their bodies
5 were left on the side of the road for four days and later on they were
6 buried by KLA members." Was this erroneously recorded or is that part of
7 your statement correct?
8 A. I don't think I said that.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's have the Albanian version in front of the
10 witness, please, so that we can check precisely.
11 MR. MARCUSSEN: Maybe I should try to do the underlining bit again
12 and so we can get quick to it. It will now be the sentence that's
13 underlined in blue.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Latifi, could you read aloud the sentence
15 which has been underlined in blue?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I saw that the bodies had remained
17 on the sides of the road for four days and later the KLA would bury them."
18 JUDGE BONOMY: And read the rest of the paragraph, to the end, the
19 next two sentences.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The surname of the family was
21 Bytyci, the KLA buried the family some place outside Randobrava."
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, you've signed that statement and you have
23 confirmed to us after you took the solemn declaration that you checked it
24 over and it's accurate. So what is the position now?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I did not recall this
1 case. But the statement I have -- I can't remember this formulation.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: You've actually told us today that you participated
3 in the funeral.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that this family was
5 killed. It was killed by Serb shelling, and it was in that stream. The
6 whole family was killed. But I don't remember this part.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: But you remember telling us this morning, just a
8 few minutes ago, that you along with the group of young men, conducted the
9 funeral for these six family members.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But we were all civilians that day.
11 There were two KLA members, of course, but they only took photos of the
12 bodies. Maybe there is some misunderstanding in the translation. The KLA
13 persons took photographs of the bodies, two of them, and the others who
14 buried them, we were civilians.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying these photographs were taken at the
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were buried as they were. The
18 people who took the photos left and took the photographs away with them.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: But did they take the photographs where the family
20 were buried?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. At the place where they were
23 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, that makes the last sentence of this very
24 strange. You say, specifically, it's nothing to do with translation, "The
25 KLA buried the family some place outside Randobrava village." These are
1 your words. You've signed them. You've confirmed them in court here
2 today or yesterday.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will clarify. Together with the
4 civilians, there were two KLA members, but they took photographs. They
5 had their own cameras.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Latifi, I've just asked you if these
7 photographs were taken at the place where they were being buried and you
8 said no. So what do you mean by the KLA buried the family?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know why I said that. Maybe
10 I misspoke. The KLA was present there.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Present where?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the place where they were killed.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Lukic?
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. [Interpretation] When did the event exactly take place? When
16 exactly did you meet these two KLA members?
17 A. That day, in the village of Randobrava.
18 Q. What day was that? Can you remember? Or at least approximately?
19 A. I think it was the 29th.
20 Q. The 29th of what month?
21 A. March, March.
22 Q. Therefore, at that time, in that area, there were KLA members.
23 A. I only saw these two that I mentioned.
24 Q. But, of course, you cannot exclude the possibility that there were
25 some other members close by; is that correct as well?
1 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a question that --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see any.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC:
5 Q. My question is and I'm asking you whether you would agree with me,
6 is whether or rather that the Serb forces never controlled the entire
7 area, especially the hilly and wooded terrain of that area; is that
9 A. During March and April, I said earlier that from the 24th of March
10 until the end of March, they were there. From the 25th of April, they
11 were again in control of the area. But then after that, I don't know how
12 long they stayed because we left for Albania.
13 Q. Thank you. You also found the body of a male person in the
14 village of Randobrava. When did you find the body?
15 A. The same day we found the bodies of that family we mentioned
16 earlier. He was in the village.
17 Q. Who assisted you?
18 A. A young colleague there. A young man from the village.
19 Q. Did anyone task you with carrying out such duties?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Every time the KLA would shoot footage or photographs of the
22 graves; is that correct?
23 A. You mean the funeral?
24 Q. Funeral or graves. It says here KLA members usually took footage
25 or photographs of the bodies and graves.
1 A. Perhaps they did, because the two soldiers that were with us that
2 day, they said, "We are filming everything. We are taking photos of
4 Q. Then you continue, by saying that you buried 25 people from Velika
5 Krusa in Donja Retimlje. When did you do that?
6 A. This was on the 28th.
7 Q. What month, please?
8 A. Of March.
9 Q. Who helped you out then?
10 A. On this case, I was with a couple of my relatives, and there was
11 one person from Krusha e Mahde.
12 Q. You do not come from Donja Retimlje. How come you went to Donja
13 Retimlje on the 28th and did that? Could you move freely about the area
14 after the 24th of March 1999?
15 A. Well, we could not move freely. We tried to avoid main roads. We
16 went along the stream and valleys, and I went to Reti to look for my
17 sister. That's why I went there. I went to Reti, I went to Randobrava
18 and then I went to Krusha e Mahde. And then I was interested to see what
19 had happened.
20 Q. Therefore, we can agree that the Serb forces did not control the
21 area we are discussing; is that correct?
22 A. Well, they couldn't control the whole area. There were some
23 stationed in Pirana, some others in Reti, and I wouldn't say there were
24 too many of these forces, about 50 or 70 of soldiers and policemen. So
25 there, we could go, follow some paths that they could not see us.
1 Q. Very well. Thank you. Have you ever heard of any KLA members
2 being killed in combat and do you know who would bury such people?
3 A. We buried these people ourselves, but the KLA also took notes of
4 the case.
5 Q. I want to ask you this: Did you know that some KLA members were
6 killed in fighting and who buried them?
7 A. No. They were civilians. They were in civilian clothes. I could
8 not say they were KLA members.
9 Q. Very well. I won't pursue this any further but I wanted to ask
10 you this: When you went to Albania, were you mobilised there?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You mentioned the Orahovac offensive and I will conclude my
13 examination with that. Are you referring to the period during which the
14 KLA took over Orahovac town?
15 A. We just heard the fighting. I don't know who captured what. The
16 large police forces went towards Orahovac. They went there but
17 then they returned. I'm not sure what happened exactly.
18 Q. Conclude with this topic. When you left Serbica, you didn't leave
19 because you were forcibly driven away. No one used any force.
20 A. No force was used. We had to leave. Our houses were burned. The
21 danger became greater.
22 Q. I just wanted to clarify the issue of use of force. If my learned
23 friends from the OTP wish to clarify this further they will have questions
24 for you, but this will conclude my cross-examination. And I would like to
25 thank Your Honours for having allowed me to pursue my line of questioning
1 in spite of the time constraints.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
3 Mr. Latifi, you were asked just now about the Orahovac offensive.
4 Remind us of the date of that, please.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the date, but it
6 was in summer 1998.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: And by offensive, you are referring to an offensive
8 by the KLA?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, an offensive of the Serb police
11 JUDGE BONOMY: What then, in that case, what do you mean by, "The
12 liberation forces went in the direction of Orahovac? They went there but
13 then they returned?"
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't think I said that. I
15 was misquoted.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, could you tell us again, then, what you meant
17 to say?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see KLA forces going in
19 the direction of Orahovac. It was the police and military forces that
20 went from Prizren in the direction of Orahovac.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: This is a comment for the interpreters. I would
22 like that part of the transcript checked, and a note sent to the Trial
23 Chamber explaining whether the use of the word "liberation forces" is
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: After consultation with a
1 colleague in the booth, it is the interpreter's mistake.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Is the interpreter able to say what was actually
4 THE INTERPRETER: The colleague and I agree that it was
5 said, "Military and police forces."
6 JUDGE BONOMY: I nevertheless think it should be further checked,
7 and a written report sent to the Trial Chamber later. Thank you.
8 One other matter, Mr. Latifi. Did you find your sister?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My sister had gone to Mamusha and
10 from Mamusha they had been expelled to Albania. They had walked all the
11 way from Randobrava to Mamusha to Albania, and about this I learned when I
12 went to Albania. I did not know anything about her fate before that.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you meet up with her in Albania?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 Mr. Marcussen?
17 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Re-examination by Mr. Marcussen:
19 Q. Mr. Latifi, just a few questions to clarify some parts of what has
20 been going on today and yesterday. I'm going to start with something else
21 but could we prepare Exhibit 3D138, please? And the part I'd like to see
22 would be paragraph 3.3 in that document.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, do we need to see this, Mr. Marcussen? Is
24 this not something we can read for ourselves in light of the submissions
25 that you will make? What is the witness going to be able to do to
1 elucidate our understanding of the document?
2 MR. MARCUSSEN: I want him just to confirm that what is in that
3 paragraph is consistent with his evidence. Maybe it's clear enough on the
5 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, that's a leading question in
6 re-examination and that would not normally be appropriate.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN: We can deal with it in submissions. I'm happy
8 with that if you prefer that.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: We are talking about a sitrep from the KVM, aren't
11 MR. MARCUSSEN: Indeed it was paragraph 3.2 that was dealt with by
12 the witness. But we can deal with it in submissions.
13 Q. Mr. Latifi, you were also shown another document about the killing
14 of Ymer Xhafiqi, and you confirmed that after that killing, a lot of
15 people left from your village. Do you know why people left?
16 A. Because of the panic.
17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic?
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I don't think the witness confirmed
20 that the people left the village. That was precisely the issue at stake
21 yesterday. Therefore, I believe my learned friend's question was
22 unfounded as regards yesterday's testimony. Provided we are not talking
23 at cross-purposes. And I don't think we are.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: This is the death that ended yesterday -- or the
25 disappearance that ended yesterday's session, started this morning's
1 session; is that right?
2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] It is.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the witness has said that he does not
4 remember that as a result of that, 60 per cent of the women left the
5 village for one night, women and children left the village. And he's
6 confirmed that today.
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is right.
8 MR. MARCUSSEN: Okay. Maybe I misunderstood the evidence. I
9 thought the issue was the composition, the percentage, and not whether
10 people had actually left.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, nothing to stop you asking a question. It's
12 only the basis on which you ask it must be accurate.
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes.
14 Q. To your recollection after this particular killing, did people
15 leave your village?
16 A. I don't remember that they left that day. Don't remember.
17 Q. That's my misunderstanding. You were also asked today about
18 whether you saw the shelling of the mosque on the 24th, and you confirmed
19 you had seen that. What time of the day did this happen?
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, again, I don't think that's the proper way
21 that question, and I specifically noted that the witness did not see that,
22 and that he saw the results of it the following morning, and that it was
23 damaged, it was blown up by being mined. Just give me a moment.
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: I just checked the transcript. I might have taken
25 a wrong note again but -- my understanding was at page 11 and 12, the
1 witness was saying he didn't see the mining of the mosque but he did see
2 the mosque being shot at and then later on the mosque was mined and he
3 didn't actually see that but let me just ask.
4 Q. Did you see any shooting taking place that hit the mosque at any
5 point in time? Did you see that yourself?
6 A. One shell fell on the minaret.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Just old on. There is an objection but it's
8 difficult to see what that is. Mr. Cepic?
9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, I believe
10 this has been cleared sufficiently by the answers on page 12.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: This on the face of it seems a perfectly reasonable
12 open question but I will look again at page 12 before deciding.
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: If my --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on, Mr. Marcussen, until I finish reading
16 MR. CEPIC: Line 7 and line --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Just please, I know exactly what I'm doing, Mr.
18 Cepic. Thank you.
19 MR. CEPIC: I apologise.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: There is no proper objection to the question you
21 wish to ask about the shelling of the mosques, so please reformulate it
22 and ask it, Mr. Marcussen.
23 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Latifi, did you see at any point in time the mosque being
25 shelled? Did you see that for yourself?
1 A. Yes. I saw it myself. Only one shell fell that day but whether
2 it came from Serbica or Landovica, I don't know. While then they shot
3 with Pragas from the bridge. But it did not collapse. So a few days
4 later, we learned that it was mined and then also the same night the
5 mosques of Reti, Randobrava and Landovica were also mined.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you mean by, "They shot from the bridge"?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the bridge, the bridge is at
8 the entrance of the village, and Pragas were stationed there. And the
9 minaret is about 40 metres tall so from there they shot at the mosque, at
10 the minaret.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Now is this a different occasion from the one where
12 you say you don't know whether it came from Landobrava [phoen] or Serbica?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first shell came either from
14 Serbica or Landovica because there was heavy weaponry in Serbica, there
15 was heavy weaponry in Landovica as well, stationed there.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: So we understand where one shell came from. Now,
17 what do you -- what are you referring to when you say they shot from the
18 bridge? What form of attack was that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a Praga. It can move and it
20 is an anti-aircraft.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: And you're saying that anti-aircraft gunnery was
22 used to shoot at the mosque? Is that what you're saying?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, at the minaret.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: And are you also saying it didn't strike the
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The minaret was struck but it did
2 not collapse that day.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: So is your evidence that anti-aircraft fire
4 actually did damage to the mosque?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It damaged the mosque partly, but
6 the anti-aircraft gunnery did not make the mosque collapse.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen?
8 MR. MARCUSSEN:
9 Q. At what time did you see -- at what time of the day did the
10 shelling, the shell that hit the mosque, take place? When did that
12 A. It was in the morning of the 24th of March, around 11.00 -- 10.00
13 or 11.00 in the morning.
14 Q. And --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Just to complete, I wasn't clear either that you
16 were saying that the shell had hit the mosque. Are you saying that the
17 one shell that landed actually hit the mosque?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be more precise, a shell fell in
19 the area between the mosque and the minaret, and then the mosque was being
20 hit by anti-artillery gunnery.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: And is the minaret separate from the mosque
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The building of the mosque is lower
24 but the minaret is thinner and taller and it is close to the mosque
25 building. It is attached to the mosque.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: So they are physically attached, they are
2 physically attached to each other?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They are physically attached
4 in one corner.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: So when you say a shell landed between the minaret
6 and the mosque, did it hit the building?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It hit the minaret. It hit the area
8 between the building and the minaret. A part of the mosque was hit as
10 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Mr. Marcussen?
11 MR. MARCUSSEN: Just as a point of reference for the future when
12 this is being looked at, I think what is at issue is the last paragraph on
13 page 2 of the statement where it says that in the morning, at 8.00, a
14 house -- the houses were set on fire, luckily there was no damage to -- no
15 damage or people killed. That's what we are trying to narrow down when
16 this actually took place.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: What has that got to do with the mosque?
18 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think it was being suggested that the witness
19 wasn't consistent in the incident with the mosque because --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm wondering why it's not mentioned in relation to
21 that shooting. I mean, is it mentioned in the statement at all? I
22 thought the point was that this destruction of the minaret was not
23 referred to in the statement. We know it came up in another statement but
24 it doesn't appear in this statement. Does it? Mr. Cepic?
25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I heard from you exactly the words I
1 wanted to say, and I'm afraid that my learned friend, Mr. Marcussen,
2 didn't read out paragraph 8 in its totality. At the same time it says
3 simultaneously the Serbs began shelling the village but luckily, there was
4 no damage or people being killed or wounded. This is what literally is
5 stated in this 1999 statement. In the Milosevic transcript, this same
6 witness did not mention the destruction of the minaret. It is not
7 included in this 1999 statement either. And this is the first time we've
8 heard of it.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, I think I said that before you even
10 opened your mouth, just now, and really we are wasting an awful lot of
11 time now on something that is doubtful that the Trial Chamber is going to
12 pay much attention to in view of its absence from the original statement.
13 Is there any other questions, Mr. Marcussen?
14 MR. MARCUSSEN: Just one question.
15 Q. You were asked by Mr. Lukic about the period of time when the Serb
16 forces had left the area that you were seeking refuge in and then came
17 back and that there was shelling of the villages on the 26th, around the
18 time of the 26th of April. Did you hear any outgoing fire from any of the
19 villages being shelled?
20 A. No.
21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you. That concludes our redirect.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Latifi, in what -- what were the circumstances
23 which led to you first mentioning the damage to the minaret to the office
24 of the Prosecution?
25 A. I mentioned it by accident. I wasn't asked by members of the
1 Prosecution about this. I mentioned it by accident.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: When was that?
3 A. I think it was after the Milosevic testimony. I think I've
4 mentioned it to OTP members in Prishtina.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Latifi, that completes your evidence.
7 Thank you very much for coming to the Tribunal to give evidence and to
8 expand upon it over the last two days. You are now free to leave.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, we shall resume in 20 minutes.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.42 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Fikirini, who is the next witness?
15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] [In English] Your Honour, excuse me.
16 [Interpretation] I did not want to take time away from the break but just
17 in case, I would like to tender a list of documents bearing in mind your
18 observation, I tender 3D134.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: If this is simply a reference to the documents
20 which you brought up on the e-court during the evidence, and which set the
21 questions in context, then they are admitted to the extent necessary to
22 understand the evidence. The only reason that the Prosecution on
23 occasions tender documents is when they are, for example, a statement or a
24 transcript, because they are being tendered in their entirety for us to
25 consider in their entirety, but where it's simply a question of referring
1 to a document to put question in context, you don't need to go through
2 that exercise, Mr. Visnjic.
3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Fikirini?
5 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, our next witness is William Fulton.
6 His evidence is relevant to paragraph 75(D) and he will be a live witness.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon -- good morning, sorry, Mr. Fulton.
9 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you stand, please. And could you make the
11 solemn declaration by reading aloud what's being placed before you?
12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
13 whole truth and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: WILLIAM ROBERT FULTON
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Fikirini?
18 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honours, before I proceed, I have an issue
19 which I would like to sort out with you. I will have several documents
20 which I'll be using with this witness, and the documents, they all have
21 index pages referring to those documents. My question is: Would you also
22 like me to put on the screen those indexes, pages, or would you like me to
23 just put on the photographs which are relevant to this witness? The
24 witness will be discussing about.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: So, for example, when you come to P166 --
1 MS. FIKIRINI: Yes.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: -- that's an index and P167 is actually --
3 MS. FIKIRINI: The photographs.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: -- the document itself.
5 MS. FIKIRINI: Yes, yes.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: It sounds to me as though there is no real reason
7 for going through the index unless it's necessary to identify anything as
8 we go along. So unless that presents a difficulty, I think you should
9 assume we don't need to see the index but we'll note that the related
10 index will be an exhibit in relation to any of the exhibits that are
11 actually referred to as we go through the evidence.
12 MS. FIKIRINI: Yes, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
14 MS. FIKIRINI: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Examination by Ms. Fikirini:
16 Q. Could you please state your full name to the Court?
17 A. William Robert Fulton.
18 Q. Mr. Fulton, are you country working with the United Nations truce
19 supervision organisation in Jerusalem; is that correct?
20 A. That's correct, Your Honour, yes.
21 Q. And before you joined United Nations truce supervision
22 organisation in Jerusalem, were you a police officer holding the rank of
23 detective sergeant with the police service of Northern Ireland?
24 A. Yes, Your Honour.
25 Q. And Mr. Fulton, while you were working with the police service of
1 Northern Ireland, did you co-author a contiguous plan on the recovery and
2 identification of dead bodies in major disasters?
3 A. I did, Your Honour, yes.
4 Q. Mr. Fulton in September and October 1999, were you seconded to the
5 British forensic team to work in Kosovo and again in 2000 for exhumation
7 A. That's correct, yes.
8 Q. Between May 2001 and 2005 you had been working with the Office of
9 the Prosecutor as an investigator; is that correct?
10 A. That is correct, yes.
11 Q. Mr. Fulton, in June 2001, you were assigned to work in the
12 Belgrade field office by team leader then, Mr. Kevin Curtis to monitor the
13 exhumation process that was scheduled to take place within the boundaries
14 of Serbia; is that correct?
15 A. That is correct, yes.
16 Q. While in that assignment, in total, how many exhumation sites you
18 A. Exclusively, two, and I did have then -- I visited the two further
19 sites on one day at Petrova Selo. I visited a further site at Lake Peruca
20 with the river Derventa on another day but primarily my task was to look
21 after the grave sites that were recovered or discovered in Belgrade.
22 Q. Can you name the name -- can you name those sites?
23 A. We had two sites in Petrovo Selo, Petrovo Selo 1 and 2. We had a
24 number of sites in Batajnica. My understanding is it eventually went up
25 to 7 or 8. I was certainly there for Batajnica 1, 2 and 3 and we had
1 another site at Lake Peruca.
2 Q. Your Honours, at this point I will ask for Exhibit P0063 to be
3 placed on the screen.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you mean 631?
5 MS. FIKIRINI: 631, sorry.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 MS. FIKIRINI:
8 Q. Mr. Fulton, can you describe to the Court or can you show to us
9 where those sites are located and if possible, can you tell us the
10 distance from Belgrade and whether those mass graves were in the common
11 area or there was any specific thing related to those mass graves?
12 A. I recall that the sites in Batajnica were approximately about 20
13 kilometres from Belgrade. As to the actual distance for Petrovo Selo and
14 Peruca sites I genuinely cannot recall but there was some considerable
16 Q. And Mr. Fulton, how did you come about this -- I mean, how did you
17 come about the information regarding this mass graves?
18 A. My understanding is that it was clearly there was some press
19 coverage regarding this and it came to the attention of the Office of the
20 Prosecutor, which resulted in my hasty departure from here. After a few
21 days of arriving to go to Belgrade, and that's when it was then brought to
22 my attention, about the initial site in Batajnica. I know there was an
24 police, and as a result of his investigations, it then led to the
25 determining where these grave sites were.
1 Q. And do you know who ordered and who carried this exhumations?
2 A. The exhumations were carried out exclusively by members of Rade,
3 of forensic institutes within Serbia. I'm trying to recall which one was
4 involved in Petrovo Selo, Uzica perhaps. This was another one in Peruca
5 which carried out under the control of a VJ forensic pathologist and
6 certainly the ones in Batajnica were led by professor Dusan Dunjic of the
7 Belgrade forensic institute.
8 Q. Mr. Fulton, you were asked to monitor the exhumation in Serbia and
9 you mentioned several sites involved. My questions are: Were all
10 identified mass graves at that time exhumed?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And were you present at all these sites?
13 A. The exhumations in for example Petrovo Selo were carried on in
14 tandem to the ones that were going on in Batajnica. The one in -- that's
15 been marked was going -- was also being carried out again. Can't recall
16 exact dates but to such that I was able to visit those other two sites on
17 one day each. The Batajnica site certainly BA 1 and 2 BA I was there
18 exclusively during that time.
19 Q. And Mr. Fulton, while you were still with the Office of the
20 Prosecutor, do you remember or were there any time the OTP received
21 reports, records of the exhumation carried out at -- in Batajnica, Petrovo
22 Selo and Lake Peruca?
23 A. From the Serbian authorities?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Yes. My understanding is that although I left Belgrade during
1 June, I believe of 2003, I know that there had been requests put in for
2 the complete files from the relevant investigating judges and I have no
3 doubt that they were received here. In fact I know that certainly the
4 first Batajnica files were submitted to the Office of the Prosecutor.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Fulton, I would like to specifically take you
6 to the Batajnica 1 site. With this site, you told us that you were there
7 exclusively. Can you tell us when did it start and when did it end if you
8 remember the exhumation exercise?
9 A. I believe it started on 12th of June, and lasted on the 26th, I
10 believe. I know that the Petrovo Selo site was going on after that
11 because I visited it on the 27th of June.
12 Q. Now can you just focus on --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment. Mr. Fulton, what do you mean by the
14 expression you were there exclusively?
15 THE WITNESS: That was my focus and my arrival at the time, sir,
16 was just to be an observer at these exhumations. So I was there
17 primarily -- that was my main task at the time I was supposed to do in an
18 observation capacity on behalf of the OTP.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 MS. FIKIRINI:
21 Q. Since you are talking about Batajnica 1, I would appreciate if you
22 would focus on that.
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Mr. Fulton, you earlier told us that these sites were outside
25 Belgrade. With this site specifically, Batajnica 1, can you further
1 explain where it's located within that area?
2 A. Within the area of Batajnica, there is a VJ camp. I since found
3 out afterwards that within the VJ camp there was a special anti-terrorist
4 police facility inside that. There is a firing range on one of the
5 boundary walls. Beyond it is where the first site was found, within a
6 matter of metres of the boundary fence.
7 Q. And you also told the Court just a few minutes ago that you were
8 there as a monitor. Were you -- as an observer. Were you the only one
9 observing this exhumation exercises?
10 A. No, my recollection is that I believe there was a Swiss
11 pathologist there. There was members of the ICMP, HRC were also there.
12 There were quite a number of observers.
13 Q. What do you mean by ICMP, HRC?
14 A. International Commission for Missing Persons and Human Rights
15 Commission, I believe.
16 Q. And based on your role, did you collect or receive any information
17 regarding the exhumations in Batajnica 1?
18 A. With regard to identification documents?
19 Q. No. Just out of that exhumation, did you receive any reports or
20 the OTP did receive any reports, any photographs, any documents?
21 A. Yes. My understanding is that once the complete forensic report
22 was submitted to the Belgrade district court, a copy of this was then
23 forwarded to the Office of the Prosecutor by the investigating judge.
24 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honours, at this point I would ask Exhibit
25 P00159 to be placed on the screen.
1 Q. Mr. Fulton, can you explain or describe to the Court what these
2 photographs depict?
3 A. That's a scene of the exhumation site from BA 01, Your Honour.
4 Q. That's when the exhumation started?
5 A. Well, I can't be specific if that is one of the photographs
6 regarding the start of it but yes, it certainly looks like it.
7 Q. And do you know who was taking these pictures?
8 A. There was a criminal technician from the Serbian MUP who was
9 tasked there as a -- to technically record what was going on.
10 Q. And Mr. Fulton, were there any bodies exhumed or recovered from
11 this site and if yes, how many?
12 A. What was passed to me, I believe, was there was at least 37 bodies
13 that were recovered from this particular grave site.
14 Q. Mr. Fulton, were you able to see in what state the bodies exhumed
16 A. Yes, Your Honour. There was basically a pile of co-mingled
17 bodies, bones, flesh, clothing, in a -- I don't know, a mass heap in the
18 middle of this site.
19 Q. And were you able to get any information as to the bodies exhumed,
20 the identification documents recovered, including loose clothings?
21 A. Yes. Whenever bodies were recovered or clothe -- each item of
22 clothing or things that were found were evidentially recorded by the
23 forensic team. If there was an identification document or something of
24 specific interest, this was brought to our attention and these details
25 were then passed to the OTP.
1 Q. And Mr. Fulton, from the bodies exhumed and the artifacts
2 recovered, was there any matching between the bodies and the
3 identification document recovered done?
4 A. At this stage there was no identifications done, Your Honour.
5 These were identification documents that were recovered, either they were
6 found loose or they were found in items of clothing that were loose or
7 they were found on items of clothing that were on bodies or body parts.
8 This was not about identification. It was simply that I recorded that
9 these documents were identification documents that were recovered from the
11 Q. What about the presumptive identification based on how the
12 documents were found in relation to the bodies exhumed? Did such a thing
14 A. A presumptive identification is -- what we had here were
15 identification documents. At no point did myself or anybody at that
16 time -- because the identification requires the linking of anti-mortem
17 data to post-mortem data. These identification documents were certainly
18 indicative of something but beyond that I'm not in a position then or now
19 to say that they presumed identification of any of the bodies that we
20 recovered there.
21 Q. Now, based on that indications, were there any identification done
22 based on -- I mean, on the documents which were found and what you are
23 calling now as indicative, did anything happen?
24 A. As a result of the documents --
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. -- being found? No, because it's simply insufficient. I mean
2 clearly they indicate certain things but it's insufficient for the --
3 for -- for the definitive identification of a body based on some documents
4 that were recovered from a mass grave site.
5 Q. From these specific sites, did you receive any photographs, any
6 identification documents?
7 A. I believe so, yes, sir. They were handed over, a complete file
8 regarding the exhumation process and the forensic reports were handed over
9 from the forensic institute to the investigating judge. And as a result
10 of that they became -- they came into the possession of the Office of the
12 Q. Your Honours, at this stage I would ask if Exhibit P00139 could be
13 placed on the screen.
14 Mr. Fulton, do you have any recollection as to some of these
15 photographs which were passed on to you and then you passed them to the
17 A. Yes, Your Honour. I do have some recollection of them, not each
18 specific photograph obviously, but yes this looks like I can see the
19 identification moniker that was given to this grave site as being BA.
20 Q. And can you describe to the Court what this photograph which is in
21 front of you depicts?
22 A. The working -- again I don't want to speak on behalf of the
23 forensic team involved, but the practice was whenever there was what was
24 deemed to be either a definitive body or body part or something of
25 significance was initially identified, they evidentially recorded it prior
1 to the exhumation, the exhumation itself, and then the body after it was
2 exhumed. This is when a body or a body part of significance was
3 identified and they would have placed the markers in the ground
4 evidentially recorded it and then carried on with their exhumation
6 Q. Can we move to the second page of these photographs, please? Can
7 you describe to the Court also what is on this photograph?
8 A. Although the photographs now make it appear quite indistinct but
9 clearly at the time, they would have identified body BA 09 and BA 010 so
10 they marked their location, they plotted it by way of taking photographs.
11 Q. Can we go to the next photograph, please? Mr. Fulton, would the
12 Registry, please, I mean, keep on putting different photographs so that
13 the witness can continue?
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask what the purpose of this exercise is? Is
15 there not a report that links these photographs and the contents of the
16 photographs and any other material and tells us what the outcome of the
17 investigation was?
18 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, with a different witness, yes, we will
19 be able to achieve what you think should be done, but with this specific
20 witness, no, because he didn't put any report together. His task was to
21 observe what was happening at the exhumation sites and this is the
22 information which was collected and specifically to this site.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: And will the witness to whom you refer not be able
24 to deal with all this? I wasn't expecting him to deal with all of this
25 specifically knowing that this is that, but these are the photographs
1 which were sent to him as he was there at the exhumation site. So this is
2 the product of what he was observing while he was at the exhumation site.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: All this witness is saying is, yes, that looks like
4 a photograph that was taken at Batajnica because I'm familiar with the
5 general layout of the exhumation site. He's not said any -- is he going
6 to be saying more than that about any of the other photographs?
7 MS. FIKIRINI: He won't be able to say exactly what because his
8 task wasn't -- he wasn't there to say anything or to make any remarks. He
9 was just there to observe the whole process.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, do we need this evidence? It doesn't sound
11 like it.
12 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, I think we need because there is a
13 question of these bodies moved from one point to another. There is a
14 question of these mass graves. There is a question of how these bodies
15 were while they were in the graves, so I think we need that information.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: And he's going to tell us these things, is he?
17 MS. FIKIRINI: Yes. I mean he won't tell us that the bodies were
18 moved but he will tell us what was at the exhumation sites. How did --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: But we are going to have a report that tells us
20 what's in each of these photographs by the people who really did the work
21 presumably. So why do we need him to go through the photographs and say,
22 yeah, this looks like what I saw at the time, but I can't say any more
23 than that? Maybe I'm missing something. I'd like you to alert me to what
24 it is you think I'm missing that this evidence might establish?
25 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, it cuts both ways. You might not be
1 missing anything, but you might also be missing something. He was sent by
2 the OTP to observe what was taking place, and out of his observation or
3 his presence at the exhumation site, resulted in us or the OTP getting
4 this information. There are other people who were there, like the
5 forensic experts, of course we will call them, they will also give us
6 their piece of evidence of what happened and how they carried out that
7 exercise. But his work or why he was there, he was there as an observer
8 on behalf of the OTP and based on that, we thought it it's very important
9 for him also to come as a witness so that he can share his piece of
10 evidence on what he observed.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Who is the witness that will come and deal with the
12 matter in detail? And speak to a report?
13 MS. FIKIRINI: We have two forensic experts. We'll have an
14 archeologist who was present at some of these sites and who put together a
16 JUDGE BONOMY: And who are the two forensic pathologist?
17 MS. FIKIRINI: We have Professor Dunjic and we have Professor
19 JUDGE BONOMY: And are they the two who were mentioned earlier in
20 Mr. Fulton's evidence.
21 MS. FIKIRINI: He mentioned one of them.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: And he said another was a VJ pathologist; is that
24 MS. FIKIRINI: Yes, but again, we are not going to specifically
25 deal with Lake Peruca, yes.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan, can you help me on this? This --
2 the 65 ter summary indicates a list of names of persons and it would
3 appear that it's suggested that these are people killed elsewhere and
4 whose bodies were found at Batajnica. Now, is there an issue over the
5 identification of these people in this case?
6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's an issue that I alone cannot speak to. I
7 think you'd have to canvass the position of the other accused, their
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have a position on it?
10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We hold the Prosecution to strict proof of
12 JUDGE BONOMY: We are being realistic, are we, on that?
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well, before the Prosecution say they intend to
14 call a number of witnesses in connection with that and I can -- questions
15 you've been putting to the Prosecution in relation to this witness. The
16 position that or the questions you are asking at this point in this
17 testimony are questions that I'm asking myself.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: As far as you're concerned, though, is it beyond
19 the realms of possibility that the fact that certain bodies were probably
20 killed in one place and later found in a quite separate place might be
22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's a matter I cannot speak to.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Obviously, it doesn't prove how they got there,
24 which may be the most important factor of all, although certain inferences
25 might be drawn from that, but I wonder if this is something to which
1 attention might have been given. If I'm told by the Defence it's out of
2 the question, then of course, that's the end of the matter. But perhaps I
3 should ask the others.
4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Perhaps give an opportunity to --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: You sound ambivalent at the moment.
6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: It shows we haven't fully discussed it.
7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, perhaps I could assist some. As I think
8 the witness has already testified, the matters which he observed and which
9 he has knowledge of cannot forensically and conclusively speaking identify
10 the remains. There was an investigation carried out, and again I don't
11 want to be testifying but it's my understanding that DNA testing was
12 undertaken on certain of these remains that results were found and
13 therefore the forensic experts ought to be able to talk about their
14 investigation and results and I believe indeed the investigations
15 conducted by the investigating judge and by the working group of the MUP
16 have -- will be heard here and that evidence will speak for itself, and
17 I --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you -- I understand what you're saying so far,
19 but are you also saying that there is just no question of reaching
20 agreement on this evidence?
21 MR. IVETIC: I'm not. I think there is a possibility of reaching
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Does it not feature in the document that's
24 circulating or has been circulating trying to encourage agreement among
1 MR. IVETIC: I don't believe that was one of the items that was
2 sought to be agreed on, to be quite frank, Your Honour, but I do know that
3 and in fact I believe this witness testified about during the time that
4 this witness testified in Milosevic, the DNA results were still pending
5 and since that time, certain DNA results have come back so with respect to
6 certain of the unidentified bodies, I believe forensically speaking the
7 proper officials can make an identification now.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Fikirini, we will allow to you proceed for the
11 moment, but certainly my impression is that this evidence isn't actually
12 going to assist us greatly. We have been assisted so far by looking at
13 what the site was like, hearing the description from Mr. Fulton of what he
14 saw when the site was initially opened up, and that's useful, helpful and
15 it's in the public interest that that should be heard, but I wonder if it
16 really is in the public interest to go through with him all these
17 photographs which other witnesses are going to be better able to speak
18 about. But if you want to carry on and take us to areas you think he can
19 help us with we'll listen a little longer and see if it is going to be
21 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, thank you for that. I will agree with
22 the Chamber that probably for him to go through all these documents will
23 not be very helpful, but for being -- for him being here it's very
24 important because there are two areas which he will touch which the other
25 witnesses who will be coming later won't be touching, and I was trying to
1 lay a foundation before getting to that point. There are two specific
2 things: One, it's the document -- documents which were found next to the
3 bodies or in the clothings which were on the bodies exhumed, and those
4 documents which they were brought over to the OTP. The OTP was able to
5 match those victims who were on our schedule to the documents which were
6 recovered and basically, he is the only witness who could speak about
8 JUDGE BONOMY: He's not too happy about that taking us anywhere,
9 though. But you're welcome to continue to ask him about the matter, if
10 you feel that that's the only way that that link can be made.
11 MS. FIKIRINI:
12 Q. Mr. Fulton, when you were at the exhumation site and after
13 receiving the documents from the Belgrade court, and those documents were
14 brought over to the OTP, was there any time those documents were matched
15 to the victims who are on our schedules? For example, schedule D, which
16 is victim from Suva Reka?
17 A. Yes, Your Honour. A number of the documents that were recovered
18 matched some of the details of the victims who were involved in the Suva
19 Reka, and again they were an indicator and what they did was simply -- in
20 those early days as has been previously pointed out, and with regard to
21 the Milosevic trial, they were indications because the DNA hadn't yet been
22 established and clearly things have moved on from then, but they did
23 provide an indication of where the bodies may have come from.
24 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, at this point I would like just to
25 quickly go through the names at least of those people who are on our
1 schedule D. Can we can go back --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the purpose of that Ms. Fikirini?
3 MS. FIKIRINI: At least -- I know it might be very difficult to
4 connect this but one of the witnesses or some of the witnesses from Suva
5 Reka did testify before this Court that some of the victims who were
6 killed were buried at the firing range. Some of these bodies were later
7 found in Batajnica. There is our evidence. And --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Any way, continue with the questions so I hear what
9 it actually amounts to.
10 MS. FIKIRINI: With the question to the witness or my explanation
11 to the Court?
12 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no to the witness.
13 MS. FIKIRINI: Okay.
14 Q. Can we then go back to Exhibit P0039 and can the Registry please
15 scroll to where they will come across --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's 139.
17 MS. FIKIRINI: 139. Where they will come across a licna karta.
18 This is the identification document which will give us a light as to the
19 importance of this witness before this Court. Okay. Let us stop there.
20 Q. Mr. Fulton, is this one of many documents which were found at
21 Batajnica which relate or were an indication?
22 A. Yes, Your Honour. As we can see it's after Berisha. It was then
23 brought to may attention that this was one of the potential victims or
24 persons that were killed at Suva Reka.
25 Q. And from that site, how many bodies or how many documents you
1 found which relate to that?
2 A. I didn't find any of them.
3 Q. I mean how many documents you received?
4 A. Nor --
5 Q. At least the licna kartas which were given clue or which were
6 indications that these people were from Suva Reka?
7 A. I believe there was eight identification documents recovered. I
8 didn't -- I was never in receipt of these documents. I was in receipt of
9 the details that were contained within these documents as recovered by the
10 forensic team. Again, the linkage that was made between the document
11 found and the deaths that occurred at Suva Reka were carried out in this
12 office, not in Belgrade, Your Honour.
13 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, I wonder if we could take a break? Five
15 --- Break taken at 11.45 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 12.02 p.m.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, bring the witness in, please. Ms. Fikirini,
18 are you feeling comfortable enough to carry on?
19 MS. FIKIRINI: Yes, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: If there is any difficulty and you need another
21 break, please let me know.
22 MS. FIKIRINI: Thank you, Your Honour, for your concern and I'm
23 sorry for the interruption.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Not at all. Carry on now.
25 MS. FIKIRINI:
1 Q. Mr. Fulton, before this break, I asked you if there were any licna
2 kartas or identification documents which were recovered from this site
3 which in a way give a clue that some of these documents found relate to
4 the victims on schedule D to the third amended indictment.
5 A. Yes, Your Honour. Basically what they did give an indication of
6 where the victims may have come from. It is fair to say that events had
7 happened after that was whenever there was a clearly the need for
8 something more than physical or clothing identification, to try and
9 identify where the bodies came from. This then would have led the OTP and
10 other organisation in a particular direction where they would obtain blood
11 samples for DNA analysis and that's what happened to the best of my
13 Q. And from the work which you or the exhumation which you observed
14 at Batajnica 1, was there any time you accompanied Mr. -- Sorry, Professor
15 Dunjic to Madrid?
16 A. Yes. I mean the samples were always -- the ownership was always
17 under the forensic institute and the Serbian authorities. I accompanied
18 them to Madrid purely as a facilitator more than anything else. There had
19 been again to my recollection some considerable negotiations and
20 establishing that there was no facility in Serbia where they were in a
21 position to carry out DNA analysis and as a result, the institute in
22 Madrid offered their services and that resulted in our travel to Madrid.
23 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, I would like now to move to Batajnica
25 Q. Mr. Fulton, you told us that you were at Batajnica 1 and Batajnica
1 2 full time. Do you remember, if you do, when did it start and when did
2 it end?
3 A. I believe it started on the 10th of July 2001 and lasted until
5 Q. And were there any bodies recovered from that site?
6 A. Again my recollection there was at least 269 bodies recovered from
7 that site, Your Honour.
8 Q. And were there any identification documents also recovered from
9 that site?
10 A. Yes, there was, Your Honour, yes.
11 Q. Was all -- I mean, was there any point when this information
12 regarding the documents recovered and the number of bodies exhumed passed
13 on to you and then you passed that information to the OTP?
14 A. It was exactly the same procedure. Whenever something of
15 significance was recovered with regard to identification documents, it was
16 brought to my attention and I then passed it on to this office.
17 Q. Do you by any chance remember how many identification documents
18 were recovered from this site, were passed on to you?
19 A. I believe there was 11 items of potential identification, although
20 one of them was a dog tag, it was described to me as a dog tag, but there
21 were a number of document that did relate to persons that had been listed
22 as being killed in Kosovo.
23 Q. And was there any time you learned that probably the information
24 which you passed on to the OTP, the OTP was able to match that information
25 with the name of the victims appearing on schedule I to the third amended
2 A. I know that as a result of some of the documents, you can see in
3 this case it's still on screen, some of the information that was contained
4 in the documents, it is fair to say that some of the documentation was
5 better than others due to either burning or purely degradation as a result
6 of their time in the ground. And as a result of the information recovered
7 from that they were then checked with the ICRC book on missing persons and
8 as a result of that, they were able to say that the details recovered from
9 this particular grave site could well have been persons who were listed as
10 missing in the ICRC document.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honours, at this point I will move to the
13 third site which is Petrovo Selo 1 and 2.
14 Q. Mr. Fulton, you said you were present at this site for a day or
15 two; is that correct?
16 A. I was there for one day, Your Honour.
17 Q. One day. And was there any body exhumed from this site?
18 A. Yes, there was two sites. It is fair to say that I'm aware that
19 there was an ICMP registered monitor there for the best part of that and I
20 understand that he's also submitted his report on that. My recollection
21 is that Petrovo Selo, ten, 17 bodies. I can't -- no, maybe ten bodies. I
22 just can't remember, but I know that in Petrovo Selo there were 59 bodies
23 recovered, I think or at least that number.
24 Q. Again, were there any identification documents recovered too?
25 A. I do recall that there was it was indicated to me that there was a
1 number of documents recovered from the first side and they referred
2 specifically to three brothers by the name of Bitici. I remember at the
3 time they were American citizens, as it transpired, from Chicago, and
4 their last known as was indicated to me, their last known place were they
5 were imprisoned in Nis, I believe.
6 Q. Were they the only bodies recovered or were there other bodies
8 A. No, no. There were other bodies recovered, Your Honour.
9 Q. Okay. This is from Petrovo Selo 2 or still 1?
10 A. That was the Bitici's were from 1.
11 Q. And from Petrovo Selo 2?
12 A. I understand there were some other documents recovered although I
13 have no recollection of the numbers or from where they referred to at this
14 time, Your Honour.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, moving to Lake Peruca, how long were you there or
16 were you there to monitor these exhumations?
17 A. Again, I visited it for -- number of other -- it's right on the
18 western border with Bosnia quite close to Bajina Basta, so I was actually
19 on site for one day, Your Honour.
20 Q. And did you learn from those who were working there and are taking
21 the exhumations if there were any bodies exhumed?
22 A. Yes, there was indications that there would be at least the bodies
23 of 48 people had been recovered. I should say to the Court, I said at
24 least because in those days it was -- it was indistinct the number of
25 bodies and it was -- it takes further examination by the forensic teams.
1 I have no doubt it's simply been clarified at this point by the forensic
2 reports that have been submitted.
3 Q. And were there also identification documents which were recovered
4 from that site?
5 A. My recollection is that there was two identification documents
7 Q. Thank you.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you give us the date when you were there?
9 THE WITNESS: I remember it vividly because I was there on site on
10 the 11th of September 2001, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: And the other three sites were all in the same
12 year -- you've given us the dates already, they are all 2001?
13 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour. Although I understand
14 that the exhumations in Batajnica within the SAJ firing range continued
15 through 2002 as well.
16 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what, then, is the position in relation to
18 the various exhibits?
19 MS. FIKIRINI: Since we haven't worked with this witness on these
20 exhibits, I don't see any reason of asking the Court for these exhibits to
21 be admitted at this point. I will wait until the other witnesses come
22 because most of them will be referred to by Professor Dunjic and Professor
23 Alexandric and an archeologist from ICMP. So I think that will be the
24 convenient or the proper time for me to submit them to court as exhibits
25 and not with this witness, since we haven't really used them with him.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: The Chamber has had an opportunity to briefly
2 discuss the position while we had that break, and we recognise that it's
3 important to recognise victims of a conflict, and it may be important to
4 the presentation of your case that that is done. However, it does seem to
5 us that there is potential for agreement on this material. Now, potential
6 is putting it obviously at its highest but the response when the matter
7 was raised earlier was not to reject the idea. Mr. O'Sullivan in saying
8 that obviously if they insist, the Defence can put the Prosecution to
9 their full proof, he nevertheless sounded somewhat ambivalent on the
10 matter and therefore it does appear to us that agreement is at least worth
11 exploring. And in the course of exploring it, if you do manage to reach
12 agreement on the identification of certain victims, then that could be
13 presented to us in a written form that can also be publicly acknowledged.
14 It's not a matter that necessarily needs to take up in-court time, if
15 there is room for agreement. Bearing in mind the limited time available
16 and the many issues that have to be explored. So we encourage you to
17 endeavour to reach agreement on at least some of this material that might
18 reduce the time that has to be spent on the detail which may turn out to
19 be non-controversial.
20 MS. FIKIRINI: Thank you, Your Honour --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Ms. Fikirini.
22 MS. FIKIRINI: -- for the advice. And the Prosecution will
23 definitely work on that.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. O'Sullivan?
25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, the order will be General Lukic,
1 General Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, Mr. Milutinovic, Mr. Sainovic and
2 General Ojdanic.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic?
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I should be fairly brief. I
5 don't have that many questions. I have about a dozen questions.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 5040 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: You want to complete your cross-examination before
7 the break, Mr. Ivetic?
8 MR. IVETIC: I can try, Your Honour. I've got about five or six
10 JUDGE BONOMY: You should carry on and then if we can break about
11 half past if you haven't finished by then.
12 MR. IVETIC: I'll try to and finish Your Honour.
13 Q. Now, sir, did it appear to you -- strike that.
14 Am I correct that the investigative authorities for the
15 exhumations secured the sites and in fact waited to begin their work to
16 permit sufficient notice to the OTP so that the OTP could send one of its
17 representatives to observe every facet of the exhumation?
18 A. I can only assume that that was the case, Your Honour. It seemed
19 to be that way, yes.
20 Q. And are you aware that the exhumation itself was being conducted
21 under the auspices and under the control of two investigative judges, one
22 for Batajnica 1 and one for Batajnica 2?
23 A. Yes, I'm very well aware of that, Your Honour, yes.
24 Q. And am I correct that the Serbian MUP provided security throughout
25 the exhumation process for the site as well as for the exhumation teams?
1 A. Yes, that is also correct, Your Honour, yes.
2 Q. And now, as far as the cause of death for any of the victims that
3 were exhumed, am I correct you would have to defer to the expertise of the
4 forensic pathologists that undertook the forensic portion of that
6 A. That would be the case, yes, Your Honour.
7 Q. And as for the criminal culpability of anyone arising out of those
8 events, you would have to defer to the competent authorities that
9 undertook the investigation for that regard as well?
10 A. I would, yes, Your Honour.
11 Q. Okay. And is it correct or do you have knowledge that the Serbian
12 MUP authorities even before the official DNA results came back from
13 Madrid, that they worked based upon the informal indications of where the
14 corpses came from, to commence investigations already at that time, and to
15 try to ascertain the manner of death and those responsible for the same?
16 A. I would have to assume that that was the case, Your Honour. It
17 would be a foolish practice not to take cognizance of the documents that
18 were recovered at those scenes.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Fulton. I believe I'm completed
20 with this witness. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Aleksic, do you have questions for
22 the witness?
23 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac?
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan?
3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic?
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic?
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I don't have any questions either.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there any re-examination?
9 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour, there may be a question or two.
10 Re-examination by Ms. Fikirini:
11 Q. Mr. Fulton, you were asked if the OTP did receive all the
12 documents or all the records and information from the Serbian authorities
13 in relation to these exhumations and the bodies exhumed. Was this a
14 one-time thing or was it an ongoing thing?
15 A. I'm fully aware that certainly from the Batajnica 1 site, it was
16 handed in by Judge Goran Cavlina and I know that there has been ongoing
17 contact with Judge Milan Dilparic regarding the other sites in Batajnica.
18 I do believe that all requests for the information with regard to the
19 forensic exhumation of the bodies has been received at the Office of the
21 MS. FIKIRINI: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Ms. Fikirini.
23 MS. FIKIRINI: Your Honour --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
25 The transcript records your last answer as saying all requests for
1 information with regard to the forensic exhumations of the bodies has been
2 received at the Office of the Prosecutor. Do you extend that to the
3 forensic examination?
4 THE WITNESS: I believe it was a complete package, Your Honour
5 that showed the exhumation process and the procedures that they -- with
6 regard to determining death and ultimately identification if it was
7 relevant, Your Honour, yes.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, thank you, Mr. Fulton. That completes your
9 evidence. Thank you again for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You're
10 now free to leave.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
12 MR. STAMP: Before you rise, Your Honours, we have a difficulty.
13 The witness could leave. It doesn't relate to the evidence. We have been
14 moving pretty quickly and we are bringing forward witnesses that were
15 scheduled for next week to cover this week. We are now having a
16 difficulty in having a witness on this afternoon. I think the witness
17 arrived recently and is still being proofed.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: You have two witnesses more scheduled for this week
19 but one of them could be for more than a day; is that right?
20 MR. STAMP: A great deal depends on the length of the
21 cross-examination. With respect to one of them --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: I thought they anticipated examination-in-chief was
23 four hours.
24 MR. STAMP: Yes, but we have in our filing recently - I can't
25 recall the date - indicated that we would like to take him on a 92 ter as
1 he has already testified with some live -- with the leave of the Court.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: I see.
3 MR. STAMP: To ask him a few questions. I don't anticipate we
4 will be going, certainly not as much as four hours in chief, much less
5 than that, as a matter of fact. So I don't think there would be much lost
6 this week but we are really in a difficulty for this afternoon.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well --
8 MR. STAMP: Having regard to --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: -- that's a euphemism, I take it, for having no
11 MR. STAMP: That is a correct interpretation of what I was saying.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you don't have a witness, there is not a
13 lot we can do, is there? Is there an issue over -- well, can we briefly
14 again go back to private session?
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 5046-5051 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, during the
20 evidence -- just a moment, please.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you intending to deal with the same matter?
23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] No, no, something completely
24 different, a technical issue.
25 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Cepic?
2 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, during the evidence of
3 yesterday's witness Ndrec Konaj, I tendered the transcript of that
4 witness's testimony from the Milosevic trial, and I gave you an
5 indication, 3D129, for that transcript. However, for technical reason,
6 the correct identification would be 3D143. And I would like that to be on
7 the record.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic. That clarifies the position.
9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: We will adjourn now and resume at 9.00 tomorrow.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.30 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of
13 October, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.