1 Thursday, 19 October 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Kadriu.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: The examination will continue now. Please remember
9 that the solemn declaration you took at the beginning of the evidence to
10 tell the truth continues to apply to your evidence today.
11 Mr. Cepic.
12 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning,
14 WITNESS: SABIT KADRIU [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic: [Continued]
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kadriu. I would like to come back to a few
18 events before the NATO air-strikes. From your village, Brusnik, do you
19 know these Roma: Rahmani Rahman, Hamiti Miftar, Bashkimi Miftar, Sami
20 Miftar, Arben Miftar, Bazmend Miftar, Bahtiri Bedvio?
21 A. I'm sorry, the names, I don't think they were pronounced
22 correctly. Could you please say them again?
23 Q. I will try, and you will correct me if I'm mistaken. Rahmani
24 Rahman, do you know this person?
25 A. Yes, I know Rraman Rramani.
1 Q. Miftar Hamiti?
2 A. I know him as well.
3 Q. Bashkimi Miftar?
4 A. Not Bashkim, no. No.
5 Q. Bazmend Miftar?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Let me not enumerate names.
8 A. I don't think there exists such a name Bazmend. I don't think
9 there is such a name Bazmend in Kosova.
10 Q. Maybe this is a make in the report. Anyway, you said you knew the
11 persons I enumerated before. Do you know that these persons I just
12 mentioned were some of them -- could you please not interrupt me when I'm
13 asking my questions, please. Do you know that the said persons on 11th
14 January, 1999, as employees of the smelting factor Trepca were stopped on
15 their way home by the members of the so-called KLA, who were wearing
16 camouflage uniforms and carrying weapons, and kidnapped, beaten up, and
17 released only about 1700 hours with a threat that they should leave their
18 jobs otherwise they could be liquidated. Do you know that?
19 A. These three people that you mentioned, I know them. They are
20 neighbours of mine. I heard about that case. I can't remember when it
21 happened. You said January; it could have been January. But I don't know
22 who ill treated them and I felt very sorry for them because they are my
23 neighbours. And one of them, Rahman, I helped him get medical attention.
24 And I felt very sorry for them, but I don't know who did that. It was
25 people that they didn't know themselves.
1 Q. All right. You said you helped one man getting medical
2 assistance. You know them, you know about the incident. Did you carry
3 out any investigation, any inquiry to find out what exactly happened?
4 A. I told you that I was aware of this incident, and I told you that
5 I offered assistance to this man. But I don't know who beat him up. And
6 they didn't know who beat them up because I asked them for information. I
7 asked Rahman's father. We were very close. They are my neighbours. My
8 grandfather gave them land to live on. You can get information from their
9 father or those people themselves, if you want.
10 Q. But in conclusion, you did not take any steps. Is that correct?
11 A. I told you that I did take steps. I helped Rahman get medical
12 assistance, and I wanted to get statements from them about who ill treated
14 Q. We've already heard that.
15 A. But this is the answer. I don't have any other answer.
16 Q. Excellent. Thank you. Village Nevoljane, Vucitrn municipality,
17 these Serbs were kidnapped on 22nd January: Miodrag Bigovic, Milickovic
18 Radoslav, Milickovic Zivka, Radovan and Danica, they were released on the
19 23rd January. Do you know about that incident maybe?
20 A. Yes, I remember the case. I remember it very well, but I'm not
21 sure about the names. I would consider them neighbours because Novolan
22 and Brusnik are not that far from each other. I know that some Serbs had
23 been taken away and myself and Mr. Schaeffler from the OSCE, we --
24 somebody contacted someone and they were released. I think they were
25 Montenegrins, most of them, and they declared that they were not ill
1 treated by the KLA. And they said: "We ate bread and beans, the same as
2 they themselves had." They had been kept at some kind of headquarters. I
3 think that was something that some people that had infiltrated in the KLA
4 compromised KLA.
5 Q. But, sir, do you know that precisely because of that kidnapping by
6 the KLA and thanks to the OSCE, these people were returned, but these same
7 people, fearing for their lives, moved out of Kosovo just a few days
8 later, on the 30th of January. Do you know that?
9 A. They did not leave Kosova; it's not true. I myself could not
10 leave at the time because of the Serbian forces, but I am sure that KLA
11 did not arrest them. It was some kind of thugs recruited by the Yugoslav
12 secret services that did that because the army returned them to the OSCE,
13 and the OSCE is well aware of this fact. The KLA was not involved in this
14 case; somebody else was in order to compromise the KLA.
15 Q. You mean to say that the OSCE report is not correct. Is that your
17 A. I contacted Mr. Schaeffler who was an OSCE representative, the
18 offices of whom were burned by the Serbian forces on the 24th of May, and
19 Mr. Schaeffler said to me that --
20 Q. No, please do not expand your answers in that way. Please give me
21 brief answers. Our time is limited.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, you're compounding the problem. I know
23 how you feel, but sometimes you have just got to let these things go; it's
24 quicker in the end.
25 Carry on, please, Mr. Kadriu.
1 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I will say here what Mr.
3 Schaeffler said, the representative of the OSCE, and he said that at the
4 time when they arrived in Likofc, the KLA headquarters, these people were
5 not even ill treated but they were treated very well in fact and they were
6 returned, released. And this is a statement that these Montenegrins gave
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, that sounds as though the KLA were
9 involved, if they were arriving in KLA headquarters.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the impression is maybe
11 they were involved. In fact, the KLA was not involved. It was somebody
12 else who acted of their own will, but not linked with the KLA that did
13 this. And my information from Mr. Schaeffler is that these people who
14 took them to that place were punished in some way, convicted in some way.
15 But it was the Yugoslav secret service that was involved in this.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I think we
18 received clear answers on this subject.
19 Q. Village Mijalic, Vucitrn municipality, 3rd March 1999, soldier
20 Milan Mitrovic was kidnapped. Do you know about this?
21 A. At this time it was impossible for me to move. I could be killed
22 by the Serb forces, but I had contact with the OSCE office, and I will
23 say, too, what Mr. Schaeffler said to me. This young man, I can't
24 remember the exact name, he was a member of the Yugoslav army and he
25 deserted from the army that day. The Serb forces wanted to capture him
1 somewhere at the entrance of his village. The father and the uncle of
2 this young soldier went to meet him at the train station and take him
3 home. He had called them before. But in the meantime, the military
4 forces managed to capture this young man, so the father and uncle of this
5 young man were killed in an exchange of fire. I don't know about this
6 young man, but I know that his father and uncle were killed that day only
7 because his son or his nephew deserted.
8 If you get the OSCE report, you will see that this is the truth
9 because there were people who did not want to fight. There were
10 deserters. They were not -- there were people who did not want to fight
11 with their neighbours.
12 Q. It is true that the OSCE report states that his father and uncle
13 were killed, but by terrorist forces, the so-called KLA, and that the
14 young man himself was kidnapped on that day. What would your response be?
15 Is that your response, this shaking of the head?
16 A. I gave you my answer. It's not possible that OSCE has two
17 versions of this event. I was not able myself to move at the time, but
18 this was the statement of the KLA -- of the OSCE. This young man had
19 deserted from the army in Vushtrri, and the father and uncle of this young
20 man --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: We have the report from you already.
22 Mr. Cepic, do you want to show the witness this report?
23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I think my other colleagues will deal
24 with it later. Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 MR. MARCUSSEN: Will you be putting the document into evidence so
2 we can get that report on record so we can compare them?
3 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Not at this moment. I've already said
4 my colleagues will deal with it. They have presented the material before.
5 Q. Let us go back to your statement. You say on page 13 in the last
6 paragraph, English version, that in end April in Popova village
7 municipality of Podujevo -- are you listening to me, Mr. Kadriu?
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, we don't need you to bring out --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Please don't bring out any documents. Please put
11 that away. We don't want to hear from documents that are not official
12 court documents. Thank you.
13 Carry on, Mr. Cepic.
14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. So you stated that you had heard explosions from the direction of
16 Popovo village not far from where you were, and later you received reports
17 from eye-witnesses who allegedly had seen Yugoslav aircraft bombing, which
18 resulted in the death of eight persons including women and children. What
19 would you say if I told you that the Serb aviation was unable to fly at
20 that time because it was completely overpowered in the air space by NATO?
21 A. I will answer you about this case. Mr. Sahit Surdulli who saw two
22 Yugoslav MiGs made his statement himself. It's not true that the Yugoslav
23 planes could not fly that day because they came from their airfield in
24 Pristina. They came to Bajgora and they bombed the KLA headquarters in
25 Bajgora, and they also bombed Popova, which they thought there was KLA
1 there but, in fact, they bombed civilians and civilian homes. Sahit
2 Surdulli, who gave this statement, is a well educated person and he's an
3 economist. He recognised the Yugoslav MiGs. They bombed in Bajgora as
5 Q. So you mean to tell us today that you know even from which air
6 field they started, what they looked like, where they flew, and how? Is
7 that your testimony?
8 A. I think it's something that -- this is my opinion that they flew
9 from Pristina. NATO did not have MiGs, and those planes were Yugoslav
10 MiGs. They bombed the headquarters in Bajgora and they also bombed the
11 homes in Popovo where they thought it was some kind of headquarters.
12 Q. And one economist recognised in the air, probably at a very
13 high --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... argumentative,
15 Mr. Cepic.
16 MR. CEPIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you think you're going to get any more
18 information on this? If you have another point, please put it, but not a
19 repetition of the same question.
20 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Quite clear, Your Honour. I have
21 completed my questions. Thank you.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 Mr. Visnjic.
24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kadriu, my name is Tomislav Visnjic,
2 appearing for General Ojdanic. I have a few questions for you. They will
3 relate exclusively to the period after October 1998, so I will appreciate
4 it if you concentrate on that period up to March 1999. I should also like
5 to tell you at the beginning that my questions will relate only to events
6 in the Vucitrn municipality.
7 Mr. Kadriu, your organisation, the Human Rights Council, in its
8 founding documents states the following objectives: Inquiry and
9 testimonies of human rights violation, promotion of free media,
10 organisation of elections, protection of minority rights. Is that
11 correct? I see you nodding, so your answer is yes?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. Mr. Kadriu, in the period after October 1998, did you inform the
14 KLA about movements of army and/or police forces in Vucitrn?
15 A. I don't remember, but maybe it's possible that I might have
16 informed them. But as I said, I can't remember. I'm not sure.
17 Q. Does that mean that you were in contact with the KLA in the period
18 after October 1998?
19 A. We did not have contacts as such, but we had people who informed
20 us about the movements of the Serb forces. We did not inform the KLA, but
21 we informed the activists. In the beginning, I told you that we had our
22 activists in the villages, and we informed them and not the KLA. We
23 informed, for example, our activists that the villagers should take care,
24 should be careful, not to become prey of the provocations by the forces.
25 So, as I told you, we had our activists.
1 Q. Now, tell me, in which of the said activities would you include
2 this intelligence gathering activity? Would it be protection of human
3 rights, promotion of free media, or protection of minority rights? This
4 intelligence gathering, where would you put it or was it outside the
5 stated purposes of your organisation?
6 A. No, sir. The council had a duty to inform the central counsel
7 about the events happening in the field. We were informed by people, by
8 our activists, and we informed then, on our turn, the council. There was
9 a regular exchange of information, and this was something that the Council
10 of Human Rights and Freedoms did. It's in the name. We were there to
11 defend the rights and freedoms, and in this case, the rights and freedoms
12 of the whole people were being violated, the Albanian people.
13 Q. So every time that a unit would go into the barracks or leave the
14 barracks, the rights of one ethnic group would be violated. Is that what
15 you are telling me?
16 A. No, not the way you put it, but -- however, the Yugoslav army,
17 whatever -- whenever they moved, they wreaked havoc on the Albanian
18 people. There was no house, no village that was spared. So that's why we
19 collected information, we prepared reports, not only to have for ourselves
20 but also to give them to other organisations outside the country that
21 dealt with human rights.
22 Q. And, among other things -- among other organisations to whom you
23 provided this information was the KLA? Am I correct?
24 A. The KLA did not need us to give them information. They have their
25 own -- they had their own informants, but this does not mean that we did
1 not ask for information from the KLA themselves sometimes. For example,
2 if --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, this sort of answer is very confusing
4 for us. The question is quite simple, whether you provided information to
5 the KLA about the movements of army and police forces. And initially you
6 said you couldn't remember. Now, we're not -- you're not being asked
7 about whether they gave you information; you're being asked about whether
8 you gave them information. So could you answer that question.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It might have happened, Your Honour,
10 but I don't remember the details. I'm not denying the fact that in our
11 work we did not exchange information. It is possible.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that answer is meant to be: I'm not
13 denying that we did exchange information. So there you have it, Mr.
15 MR. VISNJIC: Yes.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Did you also forward information to the Kosovo
17 Verification Mission as regards the movements of the Army of Yugoslavia?
18 A. No. We had a good cooperation with the Verification Mission, but
19 they did not need information from us; on the contrary. If we could not
20 access information for a certain incident, we would approach them to ask
21 them for information. They didn't need information from us.
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 3D157 put on
23 the screen, item B, Mitrovica district.
24 Q. Mr. Kadriu, I will read out the last sentence of this paragraph
25 entitled "Mitrovica district." It is as follows: "The human rights
1 council in Vucitrn told KDOM that today around 1300 hours, two armoured
2 cars and two trucks carrying policemen went in the direction of
3 Vucitrn-Karace." This is an OSCE report -- no, sorry, a KDOM report dated
4 the 23rd November, 1998. Does this refresh your memory, Mr. Kadriu? Did
5 your organisation provide this piece of information to KDOM?
6 A. Listen, we did not exchange information through letters or faxes.
7 The KDOM representatives would visit us, and on that occasion we might
8 inform them on these incidents. Although I do not remember this
9 particularly, I am sure that this could have happened because of course
10 our discussions didn't deal with extraordinary things. We were speaking
11 about people who were being maltreated.
12 Q. Yes, I can see this.
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Let us move on to 3D158, please,
14 page 1. The title is "Security." It states there: "According to the
15 CPHRF in Vucitrn, two bus loads of policemen from Novi Pazar have recently
16 arrived to the army barracks in the town."
17 Q. This is another piece of information you forward to KDOM, and it
18 was on the 1st of December, 1998. Just a moment, I wanted to show you
19 another piece of information.
20 A. But where does it mention the council on this document, the
21 Council for Human Rights and Freedoms?
22 JUDGE BONOMY: The heading "Security," Mr. Kadriu, the first line
23 under that.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I already told you that we did
25 provide them with information in the offices when we would discuss
1 different topics, when we would talk about our concerns. But it is not
2 true that we provided them with information through faxes and letters. I
3 already told you in my previous answer that when we talked about things,
4 we did inform them about what was happening, and that was our duty. We
5 wanted the KDOM representatives to protect us. We could not ask for
6 protection from the terrorists of Pavkovic and others.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, the expression you used that they were
8 forwarding information is where the dispute lies, and what the witness is
9 saying that they gave information at the request of KDOM but that they
10 weren't, themselves, initiating the provision of information to KDOM.
11 Now, if there's something in the document that would challenge that, then
12 perhaps we should see it.
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. For the time being
14 the witness seems to be able to follow my line of questioning.
15 I would also kindly ask the witness to take a look at 3D159,
16 paragraph 212. This is a document of the 8th of December, 1998, in which
17 we also have a statement that the representatives of the council informed
18 KDOM that at 11.55 on the 7th - meaning the 7th of December - two trucks
19 full of police officers with long-barrelled arms left their barracks and
20 went out into the city.
21 Q. Mr. Kadriu, when you say that you had contacts often with KDOM
22 and, in a way, with the KLA, can we believe then that your organisation,
23 in addition to the protection of human rights, also dealt in politics, or
24 rather, to put it this way: Did your organisation express its political
25 views when having contact with KDOM?
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I have difficulty with the relevance of that.
2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm trying to establish
3 whether his organisation, apart from protecting human rights, engaged in
4 some additional activities; for example, political work or intelligence
5 work. That's what I'm trying to find out.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll dealt with -- we are dealing with the
7 intelligence side, but let's assume they were engaged in political work,
8 so what? What would the significance be for the trial or, indeed, the
9 reliability of the evidence the witness is giving?
10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we have an NGO
11 dealing with the purposes already stated in their statute, and it seems on
12 the face of it that they are dealing with some other things as well, then
13 I believe this will go to the credibility of this witness. But if you
14 deem it unimportant, I am ready to move on.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: You -- if you consider, responsibly consider, that
16 this could go to the credibility of the witness, then I cannot stop you
17 asking the question. So please proceed.
18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I will be brief, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Kadriu, in your contacts with KDOM, did you express your
20 political views; for example, that NATO forces should enter Kosovo? This
21 is a pretty direct question for you.
22 A. I can say that it is possible that we expressed our views about
23 NATO; however, in our contacts with KDOM, we mainly discussed the
24 incidents of police and military interventions, how to protect the people,
25 and how to avoid provocations --
1 Q. Mr. Kadriu, you've explained to us what you discussed with them.
2 If you discussed this with them as well, I accept your answer and I'm
3 ready to move on. Do you agree with an assertion that the security
4 situation in the municipality of Vucitrn was not a rosy one between
5 October and November 1998?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: October and February.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course we discussed the current
8 situation in Vushtrri and the surrounding area with KDOM. What other
9 topic were we to discuss with KDOM?
10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Just a moment, I wanted to put this question to you.
12 A. Superfluous events, Mr. --
13 Q. With your leave, I wanted to complete my question and then I can
14 explain. Apart from the topics you discussed with KDOM, I am asking you
15 this: Would you agree with me that the municipal authorities had no
16 access to certain villages, due to the presence of the KLA? And because
17 of that, they were unable to carry out their duties and tasks; for
18 example, providing support to those villages in any which way needed.
19 A. Sir, I really don't know how to answer your question. I don't
20 know what you want me to say because your question is very confusing.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if --
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I'll try and be precise --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: If you concentrate on the first part of it, Mr.
25 Kadriu, and that is whether KLA had control of certain villages to the
1 extent that the municipal authorities, who have responsibility for the
2 villages, could not gain access to them.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I would say that the Serbian
4 police and army could move and go wherever they want. They had all these
5 weapons and tanks and anti-aircraft weapons. Even if they came across an
6 area controlled by the KLA, it wasn't difficult for them to attack that
7 area and take it.
8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Kadriu, I was talking about municipal authorities, and I will
10 specify the villages. Glavotina, Bivoljak, Zilivoda, Bencuk, Straoce
11 [phoen], Dubovac, Taradza, Pasoma, Samodreza, and Cecelia. Are you
12 telling me that the municipal authorities of Vucitrn were able to go to
13 those villages? That's what I'm asking you.
14 A. The mayor of Vushtrri was from Mijalic village; he could move
15 around. As for others, I don't know. The chairman of the staff and the
16 mayor that I mentioned, they could move.
17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 3D160.
18 Q. Mr. Kadriu, it was precisely the mayor on the 6th of December --
19 on the 16th of December, 1998, informed KDOM that in the villages I just
20 mentioned - and I did not mention his village of Mijalic - he informed
21 them that in those villages, municipal authorities have unlimited access
22 to them, specifying terrorist activities as the main problem, terrorist
23 activities such as the expulsions of 13 Serbian families from the village
24 of Haltina [phoen], from Herzegova two families, from Balice one family,
25 from Taradza three families, and from Milici eight families and so on and
1 so forth. Did you know about this data, Mr. Kadriu?
2 A. The Chief of Staff, Slobodan Doknic, could move freely with his
3 car and go to his house in Mijalic. I don't know what are the reasons
4 that made him make such a report to KDOM. I think that you should ask
5 Slobodan Doknic about this because personally I don't have information
6 about this. I believe that up to the moment that we could move, he could,
7 as well, go freely to his home.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Visnjic please repeat the question
9 because he overlapped with the current English interpretation.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: You're being asked to repeat your next question,
11 Mr. Visnjic, because there was an overlap in interpretation.
12 MR. VISNJIC: Sorry.
13 [Interpretation] Could we please have 3D147, page 2.
14 Q. Mr. Kadriu, this is an ECMM report. They received a report on the
15 expulsions of Serb families by the KLA in the Mitrovica district. It
16 states here that those activities concerning 35 Serb families in the
17 municipality of Vucitrn was report -- was reported by the Serb mayor of
18 Vucitrn. I wanted to ask you this: Is it correct that the KLA tried to
19 cleanse mixed areas by either expelling Serb families from Albanian
20 villages or by setting Serb houses aflame in Albanian villages? Do you
21 have any data of that?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: By burning Albanian
23 houses in Serb villages.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not correct. I already told
25 you that this could not be the case. The KLA did not have the force to
1 have the control you're putting.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, your question was corrected in a very
3 odd way by the interpreter. It -- the question was: Is it correct that
4 the KLA tried to cleanse mixed areas by either expelling Serb families or
5 by burning Albanian houses in Serb villages. Is that -- was that the
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour. That
8 was the question. There may have been an initial confusion there.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: So the KLA burned Albanian houses in Serb villages?
10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour. I
11 quoted the report of the ECMM.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Kadriu, is it correct that the KLA exerted pressure on the
15 Albanian population as well? Did they inform you, perhaps -- were you
16 informed by some representatives of the LDK, being another political
17 party, that they were abducted by the KLA after having had a discussion or
18 a conversation with an American diplomat. Was that one of the ways used
19 by the KLA to intimidate the Albanian community, especially the people who
20 supported Mr. Rugova, so as to bring all the Albanians together under the
21 flag of the KLA. Is that correct, Mr. Kadriu? Do you have any knowledge
22 about that?
23 A. This did not happen in my area. I have no information on that.
24 What you mentioned about KLA burning Albanian houses, that is absurd.
25 This report was most probably drafted after this organisation --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Visnjic please repeat the question.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, you tend to overlap with the witness,
3 and your comment was not picked up by the interpreter.
4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I know that, Your Honour. I
5 apologise to the interpreters. I'm trying to cut the witness short
6 because in this answer he provided answers to my previous question.
7 Q. Yet again, Mr. Kadriu, do you have or don't you have any
8 information as regards the events in the Albanian community and the LDK
9 people? If you don't, I'll accept that.
10 A. This did not happen in my municipality.
11 Q. Mr. Kadriu, did you have information about the army being
12 concerned because of the possibility of an attack by the KLA against
13 Mitrovica or Podujevo? And this is already January 1999.
14 A. Which army? You're talking about the concerns of which army?
15 It's not clear to me.
16 Q. Mr. Kadriu, there was only one army there, and that was the Army
17 of Yugoslavia.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: It's a very odd question, if I may say so, Mr.
19 Visnjic. Hold on. Just a moment. Asking whether he had information
20 about the Yugoslav army and its concern. Unless you have a particular
21 basis for the question, it seems very odd.
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Exhibit 3D174, page 2,
23 the last paragraph. Perhaps I should reformulate the question, and then
24 I'll ask it of the witness.
25 Q. According to your information, Mr. Kadriu, did the KLA in January
1 1999 become so big so as to be able to attack towns such as Mitrovica and
3 A. I don't know what was the capacity of the KLA at that time, to
4 attack. Did they do this, Mr. Visnjic? Did they attack?
5 Q. Mr. Kadriu, we'll get to that. But before that, I'll ask you
6 something else.
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see 3D151 on
8 e-court. Yes, 151, page 2.
9 Q. Mr. Kadriu, a moment ago you testified that the KLA had nothing to
10 do with the kidnapping of five people from the village of Nevoljane close
11 to Vucitrn. However, Mr. Kadriu, I must tell you that from this document,
12 and this is an ECMM document dated the 24th of January and its item 2.2.1,
13 we see that the team of the ECMM confirmed the kidnapping and also said
14 that the initial information that the KLA organised the kidnapping was
15 confirmed by the LDK in Mitrovica. The LDK is an Albanian party headed by
16 Mr. Rugova. Was -- am I correct?
17 A. I can't add anything else to what I've already said about this
18 case. This was an action organised by members of the secret service of
19 Yugoslavia in order to compromise the KLA. The KLA released these people.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kadriu. Thank you.
21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask for 3D169 to be
22 put on our screens, page 3, paragraphs 2 and 3.
23 Q. Mr. Kadriu, a moment ago when asked by my learned friend, you
24 provided some answers about the village of Mijalic, about the killing of
25 two Serbs, and the kidnapping of a soldier. You asked my learned friend
1 to show you the Kosovo Verification Mission reports, because in your view,
2 there cannot be two contradictory reports. I wanted to quote paragraph 3
3 of this KVM report which reads: "At 1750 hours a shooting incident
4 occurred in the village of Mijalic when the KLA members tried to stop a
5 car at their check-point. As a result of that, two armed local Serbs were
6 killed," and it is presumed that they were relatives. "A third family
7 member, a young Serbian soldier, was taken into custody by the KLA at 1730
8 hours at the earliest."
9 Mr. Kadriu, this is an OVK report which states something that is
10 contrary to what you stated --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: A KVM report.
12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. This is a KVM report which speaks to the contrary of what you
15 A. Listen, Mr. Visnjic, this Montenegrin family lived for months
16 under -- in the place under KLA control. So if the KLA wanted to kill
17 them, they could have killed them before, but they never harassed them. I
18 told you that this incident happened between the Yugoslav army, who were
19 following this young man who had deserted from the army, and the father
20 and uncle who had gone to meet him. This is the information I have, and
21 this is what we talked about with Mr. Schaeffler at the time, the
22 representative of the OSCE in Vushtrri. He -- I asked him and he said: A
23 deserter has deserted the army and the army is after him.
24 Q. So what is written in the KVM report is not correct; is that your
1 A. For me, the version I am telling you is the correct version.
2 Maybe the KVM had drafted this report after information from the Serb
4 Q. So once again the KVM report is not correct? Can you say that?
5 A. I'm saying what I think is correct. I defend and abide by my
7 Q. Is it possible, Mr. Kadriu, that the Kosovo Verification Mission
8 sometimes informed the KLA about movements of the Army of Yugoslavia and
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. -- hold --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't believe so.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: I don't know to what extent the witness can talk
14 about what the KVM informed the KLA about, so I would object to the
15 question. It's answered --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on, Mr. Visnjic.
17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a basis, but I'm
18 not going into this further because the witness already answered --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: You may have a basis for the proposition that's in
20 the question, but the challenge is whether you have a basis for thinking
21 that Mr. Kadriu could tell you anything useful about it. That's another
23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Well, I do have a basis for that.
24 Mr. Kadriu holds himself out to be a person with a lot of detailed
25 information about all the parties in Vucitrn municipality. So I was
1 trying to find out if he knows anything about this, but I will move on to
2 my next subject.
3 Q. Mr. Kadriu, I'll now ask you just this: Did your organisation,
4 which dealt with the protection of human rights, register any of these
5 events, all of them originating in Vucitrn municipality and relating to
6 population centres and villages not further than 10 kilometres from your
7 settlement and not further than 10 kilometres from Vucitrn. Let's start
8 with January. The 4th of January --
9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] And can we have 3D134 prepared,
10 please, page 3, paragraph 101.
11 Q. So the 4th of January, 1999, the village of Velika
12 Reka. "Albanian terrorists armed with automatic weapons barged into the
13 yard of Mehmet Camilja, locked up his son Ramadan in the boot of the car
14 they commandeered. When they mistreated him and injuried him lightly in
15 the vicinity of Priluzje village." In fact, did you record it?
16 A. We did not have any information about this case. If we would have
17 had information, we would have recorded it. This is the first time I hear
18 about this case.
19 Q. Very well. My colleague asked you about an incident of 11th of
20 January when a group of Roma from your village were beaten up very badly.
21 You said you wanted to take their statements. Did you, in fact?
22 A. We did not take statements because they wouldn't give any written
23 statements. They gave an oral statement -- as a matter of fact, their
24 father gave an oral statement. I had the form that we usually used to
25 take statements, but they wouldn't give any statements. And I told you
1 that I helped one of them get medical attention. You can ask his father
2 about that.
3 Q. I believe that you helped as a neighbour, but I'm asking you
4 whether as chairman of the Human Rights Council, who was informed of the
5 event, notify the Kosovo Verification Mission.
6 A. I took steps, yes. I don't think the Verification Mission was
7 there at the time. I can't remember whether they were there at the time.
8 Q. It was 11th January, 1999. I think they stayed until the 20th of
9 March, 1999. I'll ask you about this incident, page 5 of the same
10 exhibit, paragraph 126 and 128. Do you know that on the 18th of January
11 there was a terrorist attack against the lorry of Miroslav Djelkapic from
12 Obilic village, who was accompanied by his son Petar. Miroslav was
13 seriously injured in the attack and succumbed on the same day in the
14 Kosovska Mitrovica hospital. The attack was carried out in Samdraz
15 village. Did you record this incident, yes or no?
16 A. I don't remember this case at all. We could not go to Samadrexha
17 at the time because there was a police check-point there so Albanians
18 could not move in that area in January.
19 Q. And could you use the motorway from Kosovska Mitrovica to
21 A. It was very difficult to move because there was a check-point in
22 Nekoc where they asked people to get off their vehicles and there were --
23 there was also a case of a person who was killed there. It was very
24 difficult to move in January.
25 Q. So you are telling me now that in fact you were unable to move in
1 January, and therefore you were unable to notify any of the incidents
2 involving human rights violations because your movement was impeded?
3 A. At that time we had a fax machine and we exchanged information by
4 fax and if I had known about this case --
5 Q. And this case where one person was killed, you didn't hear about
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. Let me ask you about the 19th of January incident in Drvare
9 village. Albanian terrorists launched a bazooka grenade at Radislav
10 Peric's house, injuring members of his family, daughter Miljana was
11 seriously wounded; his father, Radislav; wife Dobrila; and son Marko
12 lightly injured. Mr. Kadriu, did you hear of this incident on the 19th of
13 January, 1999, in Drvare?
14 A. This is the first time I'm hearing about this. The village of
15 Druar was under the control of the police, the Serbian police. How could
16 this family be attacked?
17 Q. Very well.
18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Page 6 of the same exhibit,
19 paragraph 135. My colleague Mr. Cepic questioned the witness about that.
20 Q. Let me ask you, on the same day, the 23rd of January, as the
21 previous incident in Novaljane village, a group of Albanian terrorists
22 carrying automatic weapons burst into the premises of Trifl company in
23 Vucitrn around 2230 hours. They seized some vehicles and technical
24 equipment and also abducted Miodrag Bigovic from Nevoljane village. This
25 happened in Vucitrn. Are you aware of this incident? And this incident
1 is recorded in your organisation. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes, I remember this case. I remember it very well. It was a
3 cleaning company Perparimi. As I said, I remember this case.
4 Q. Did you register that incident, too, as a violation of human
5 rights? That's my question.
6 A. Yes, of course. We must have.
7 Q. Do you know of the incident of the 25th of January in Donje
8 Stanovce village when Albanian terrorists carried out an attack with
9 automatic weapons against Arif Duraku's house?
10 A. Against the house -- Arif Duraku's house, I don't see why they
11 could attack them. I -- where did you get this information, Mr. Visnjic?
12 Q. Mr. Kadriu, that's a report based on official criminal reports
13 that the MUP of Vucitrn had in their possession at the time, in January --
14 sorry, in March 1999.
15 A. No, sir, no. The MUP was the one that was shooting at people.
16 The MUP was committing the crimes, and then they were crying in the
17 morning for the people lost. They were expelling us. They were killing
18 us, they were telling us to go to Albania. You are presenting to me a
19 report from the MUP. The MUP was carrying out these crimes.
20 Q. No. What I'm presenting to you is information about things that
21 you as an organisation dealing with human rights should have recorded.
22 Now let me tell you about this. 29th January 1999, page 7 of this
23 exhibit, paragraph 151. "Albanian terrorists likely injured Zoran Spasic
24 from Priluzje village, Vucitrn municipality." Did you record that?
25 A. We did not have any information because the Serbs would not allow
1 us to get into Priluzje. Please don't show me MUP reports because the MUP
2 itself committed monstrous crimes. I think this is absurd to show me MUP
3 reports here.
4 Q. Well, Mr. Kadriu, a moment ago I was showing you OSCE and KVM
5 reports; you were not happy with that. Now I'm showing you a MUP report.
6 Okay. Let us gut cut this short. Let's stop this exercise. I'll ask you
7 about some dramatic cases, such as --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: What exactly is the document that you're going
9 through just now, 3D15 --
10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is a Prosecution
11 exhibit, which is in fact a list.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ...
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] It's a document we received from the
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but what is it?
16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] It's a list of terrorist attacks in
17 1999 and it is a summary.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ...
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] From what we see in the attachment,
20 it is a summary -- it's probably the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: And you can use that to go back and identify the
22 source material. Is that the position?
23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, for the moment I'm
24 using this only to test the witness's knowledge of these events, but if
25 necessary we can go back to source material concerning certain incidents
1 that are in the indictment.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not suggesting that, but when you refer to
3 paragraph 151 and you say Albanian terrorists slightly wounded Zoran
4 Spasic and you say that the source of that is a MUP report, how do you
5 know that?
6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Because this document itself was
7 drafted by the MUP.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh. So are you saying they're all MUP reports?
9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry. That wasn't clear to me. I now --
11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] My understanding of this incident --
12 I also had doubts when I received this document from the Prosecution. My
13 understanding is that this is a summary of all incidents that happened in
14 1999 involving KLA attacks in the territory of Kosovo. I went through
15 just a few examples; there are many, many more of them. I tried to single
16 out several from Vucitrn municipality.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 Mr. Marcussen, you are on your feet.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours will bear with me for one minute
20 because I think there's one clarity as to the document we're looking at.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 Carry on, Mr. Visnjic.
24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Kadriu, to avoid stretching this exercise for too long, I'll
1 indicate one incident to see if you heard about it. "Enver Feka born in
2 1962 in Velika Reka was killed by Albanian terrorists by being shot 26
3 times outside his business, Lumi Mal, on the 11th of March, 1999, at 8.20
4 in the morning in Velika Reka village." Did you record this incident, Mr.
6 A. I don't think that happened. Your information comes from Sreten
7 Lukic, and you must ask him about this.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.
9 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think the document that was at least talked
10 about before is a document that was published on the MUP website listing a
11 number of incidents. I think in light of the nature of the answers we
12 get, maybe it would be best if we could ask the witness if the witness
13 knew about the incident. Depending on the answer to that, then we could
14 get an answer to whether or not his organisation recorded the incident.
15 I'm not entirely sure this jumping to the second question is the best way
16 to proceed.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: The question is: Did you record this incident?
18 And that seems to me a perfectly clear question. The answer he got was:
19 I don't think that happens. Your information comes from Mr. Lukic, and
20 you must ask him about this. So the witness is saying that's as much as
21 he's willing to say unless Mr. Visnjic wants to press him.
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. If the witness
23 doesn't know about it, I'm perfectly happy with that.
24 Q. Mr. Kadriu, maybe we can try it this way. Would you agree with me
25 if I said that in the period from January to end March, to the beginning
1 of the war, almost every day on the territory of your municipality there
2 occurred incidents in which the KLA attacked either MUP forces or Serb
3 civilians or, alternatively, Albanian civilians?
4 A. Mr. Visnjic, I don't think we agree with each other. You are
5 presenting me information that comes from Sreten Lukic, who is responsible
6 for the expulsion and the things that happened to my population --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, just address the question, please.
8 Don't -- you're not here to argue a political case or any other case.
9 Just answer the question you're being asked. Every day between January
10 and March, were there KLA attacks on the territory of your municipality,
11 yes or no?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no attacks. The KLA was
13 defending. It was self-defence. There were no attacks. It was a
14 guerilla organisation that was carrying out defensive war. Mr. Pavkovic
15 knows what defensive wars are.
16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Kadriu, since you know what a defensive war is, apparently,
18 I'll ask you this: Is defensive war when you beat up a group of gypsies?
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Visnjic, let's concentrate on the facts.
20 MR. VISNJIC: Your Honour, [Interpretation] I have no further
21 questions for this witness. I'm finished.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no questions
1 for this witness. I should only like to point out a problem with the
2 translation of one document, which I think is important for the Trial
3 Chamber. P1335, a document put by Mr. Marcussen yesterday. The English
4 version of that document is inaccurate. In the original Serbian it
5 reads: "Decision." The issue --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Petrovic please slow down when he
7 reads and read it slowly.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: You're reading too quickly. If you can slow down.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'll read it again.
10 "The order issuing authority is hereby designated for the
11 execution of the Crisis Staff of Vucitrn municipality giro account number
12 Slobodan Dobric," and so on.
13 [In English] "Decision appointing Slobodan Doknic appointing the
14 president of the Crisis Staff in wartime conditions as the person issuing
15 authority to execute the duties of the Crisis Staff of Vucitrn
17 JUDGE BONOMY: So you're saying he was given authority to operate
18 a bank account or something rather than appointed head of the Crisis
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not going into the
21 merits of his position, I'm just --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, in the context --
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] That's precisely the difference.
24 Thank you. I suggest that if what I said is not sufficient, we return it
25 to the CLSS for revision.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I think you should discuss it with the OTP, and
2 if necessary, it should then go back to the CLSS for clarification and
3 then report to us. But once it's been discussed with the Prosecution, if
4 you resolve it that way, then one of you should make a brief filing
5 confirming the position.
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. Thank you.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
8 Mr. Marcussen.
9 MR. MARCUSSEN: We will get back to you. We will discuss it and
10 see what we can do about it.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Any re-examination?
12 MR. MARCUSSEN: No, Your Honour.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Kadriu, that completes your evidence. I
15 think it's important that you remember that what we need to hear from
16 witnesses like you are as -- are the facts, as much information as
17 possible about the facts. And you've provided a great deal of
18 information. We have before us the longest statement of any witness so
19 far in the case. We have heard a great deal from you over the past two
20 days, and we will take account of all of that in coming to our decision.
21 Thank you for coming to the Tribunal again to give evidence. You're now
22 free to leave.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would
24 just like to add one sentence. It was my pleasure to testify here about
25 the truth of what happened in Kosova, but there is no amount of words and
1 there is no pen that can write about everything that happened in Kosova.
2 Nothing can describe the cries, the tears of the mothers and the sisters.
3 So don't think -- please don't think that I included everything in my
4 statement; it's just the tip of the iceberg of what happened in my
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Kadriu. You're now free to leave.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen, I was alerted earlier to a possible
11 difficulty over a witness next week. Has that been resolved informally?
12 MR. MARCUSSEN: A small bit of discussion, as I understand it, is
13 still needed, but I think it is resolved. We'll get back to you later in
14 the day.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Does that mean that your next witness
16 is K84?
17 MR. MARCUSSEN: Indeed, and Mr. Stamp will be leading that.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: For that evidence there will be closed session. So
19 when we resume at ten minutes to 11.00 we will be in closed session and we
20 will continue throughout the evidence in that format.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
22 [Closed session]
11 Pages 5178-5231 redacted. Closed session.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of
6 October, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.