1 Friday, 3 November 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Mazrekaj.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Your evidence will now continue. Please remember
9 that the declaration you gave at the beginning of your evidence to tell
10 the truth continues to apply to the evidence this morning.
11 Mr. Stamp.
12 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
13 WITNESS: MEHMET MAZREKAJ [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mazrekaj. Yesterday we were --
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. -- we were at the point where you said that you and the villagers
19 decided to leave because you were forced out, and you went to Carrabreg,
20 to the check-point of the Serbian police to ask them if you could pass
21 through the check-point. That's correct? Do you recall that?
22 A. Yes, I remember it very well, but I have to make a clarification
23 because this is the second time we left the village.
24 Q. When was the first time you left the village?
25 A. The first time was when the first shelling happened, when Decani
1 and other villages, surrounding villages, were shelled in May 1998.
2 Q. Thank you. We are speaking now - and this is where we left off -
3 about the 23rd of March, 1999.
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I now refer to the fourth full paragraph
6 of page 5 of the English, and this is the first paragraph of page 5 of the
7 Serb version of the statement.
8 Q. You said in your statement, sir, at page 5, I believe you have it
9 there, that the police at the check-point asked you about the number of
10 villagers and you told them there was 520 and that they let you go back to
11 the village and would be waiting for you there. Let me just read the
12 thing: "They let me go back to the village and would be waiting for us
13 there." I take it from that that the police at the check-point told you
14 could pass through the check-point with the villagers. Is that correct?
15 Can you answer orally, please.
16 A. My colleagues and me were stopped there and I told them, Can we
17 pass through this check-point? They asked me, How many villagers do you
18 have? And I said, I have 520 and we need to go to Isniq.
19 Q. What I want to found out is you said that when you returned to
20 Drenoc --
21 MR. STAMP: And that's the next paragraph, Your Honours.
22 Q. -- you told the villagers not to go through Carrabreg because they
23 would separate the men from the women and children. Why did you tell the
24 villagers not to go through that check-point?
25 A. We told the villagers that because those things were happening
1 every day. Women were separated from the men, and that's why I said that
2 to the villagers, because I feared the same would happen to us.
3 Q. According to your statement, eventually yourself and the villagers
4 left and went to Beleg?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. While you were at Beleg, did you see --
7 A. We went to Beleg because we were forced out from the village.
8 Q. While you were at Beleg as refugees, as you say in your statement,
9 in other people's houses, did you see armoured vehicles that could be used
10 for fighting?
11 A. That night when we went to Beleg, there weren't any. The next
12 the police came and searched; and then the next day in the evening the
13 APCs came, the army, the police, and the paramilitaries.
14 Q. In your statement you referred to a police officer beside who was
15 inside the APCs, which is what I wanted to clarify. How many APCs or
16 armoured vehicles did you see in Beleg?
17 A. There were many armoured vehicles, but I was separated from the
18 rest of the population. I was made to stand against a wall, but there
19 were many of them around us.
20 Q. The armoured vehicles that you saw, who or which organisation did
21 the armoured vehicles belong to?
22 A. They belonged to the police and the army.
23 Q. You said you saw police there in Beleg. Why do you say they were
24 police? Did you know any of them before?
25 A. Yes. I knew them from before, especially from -- policemen from
2 Q. How about the soldiers? How were you able to identify that these
3 were soldiers?
4 A. Well, I could identify them because they were wearing army
5 clothes, and some of them were masked.
6 Q. When you say "paramilitaries," what do you mean by that? You said
7 you saw paramilitaries as well.
8 A. Yes. There were paramilitaries as well.
9 Q. Describe what you mean when you use the term "paramilitaries."
10 A. Well, what I understand with paramilitaries is what -- people who
11 had to do with the Army of Yugoslavia, people who had army clothes as
13 Q. I see. But you said that there were police, soldiers, and
14 paramilitaries. What I'd like you to explain for us, if you can, is what
15 is the distinction from -- according to your understanding, between the
16 paramilitaries and the soldiers.
17 A. From what I understand, these were older than the soldiers.
18 Q. I refer to page 6 of the English version. This is the fourth full
19 paragraph on that page. And it's the last paragraph on page 5 in which
20 you describe where you had been asked by villagers in Beleg to go and
21 speak with the police, to ask for permission to leave the village. And
22 you were told to go to a basement. Now, did you go to the basement
23 voluntarily? How were you told to go there, in what manner?
24 A. We went there with some other elderly people to ask them to allow
25 us to leave Beleg, but they told us to go to the basement. They took us
1 to the basement and told us that, "In five minutes we will let you know."
2 But they didn't do it.
3 Q. And you said later on, about an hour later, they brought the
4 remainder of the villagers to the basement of that house?
5 MR. STAMP: And this is the first to lines on page 7, Your
6 Honours, the fifth paragraph on the bottom of the page in Serbian.
7 Q. You said they brought the remainder of the villagers there. What
8 I want to ask you is: How many other people did they bring to the house?
9 You said you came from your town of Drenoc with 520 people from Drenoc and
10 37 from the neighbouring village of Slup. Now, when you were in the
11 basement of the house, do you know about how many people were brought
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How many can you estimate?
15 A. When we went to the basement, we found some persons there who had
16 been taken there earlier than us. About 20-something people who had been
17 close to the house, they were taken to the basement. Then during the day
18 they brought several groups of people to the basement.
19 Q. Very well. You said that the police kept you in the basement and
20 paramilitaries mistreated you and beat you from time to time, and also
21 other people who were accommodated in the basement. Did you know some of
22 these policemen before, and can you say where they were from?
23 A. After this shelling started and we could hear the gun-fire, in the
24 afternoon, when they took us out of the basement, they started to
25 ill-treat us. And one of them was Zoran Gjurishiq from the police station
1 in Decani.
2 Q. Did you recognise any other police officer, or was he the only one
3 you recognised?
4 A. This was the one that was leading the group of people. They
5 had -- they were lined up. I recognised some other people from the police
6 station, but I don't know their names. I also recognised some from the --
7 from Gjakova, but I don't know their names either.
8 Q. You say that eventually yourself and the other villagers, who had
9 sought refuge in Beleg, were put in a convoy and made to leave, "and there
10 was an APC leading us out," according to your statement.
11 MR. STAMP: This is page 10, first paragraph of the English
12 statement and also page 9, first paragraph in the Serbian version.
13 Q. Whose APC it was-- when I say "who it belonged," I was associating
14 it with which organisation APC that escorted the convoy of refugees out of
16 A. There were many vehicles there, but one of them that I paid
17 attention to was an army vehicle.
18 Q. Okay. Now, what I want to be specific about is -- is the -- you
19 said in your statement, "that APC's" - and there's an apostrophe in the
20 English version - "were leading us out." And I understand there were
21 military vehicles. Can I just ask you this question: How many vehicles
22 escorted the people, or how many military or police vehicles escorted the
23 people out of the town, of the village?
24 A. As far as I could count them, there were three APCs in front,
25 Because I was the last one. My tractor was the last one to leave the
1 village of Beleg, so that's what I could notice.
2 Q. You said that one belonged to -- one in particular belonged to the
3 army. To which organisation, if you know, did the other two APCs that
4 escorted the people, the refugees, out of Beleg belong to?
5 A. The other two belonged to the police organisation.
6 Q. Can you say how many refugees or villagers, who were Kosovar
7 Albanians, left in that convoy?
8 A. The convoy was made up of people from all the villages of the
9 municipality of Decan. There were many people. They told us to go
10 towards Decan, but then we were led towards Gjakova and Albania.
11 Q. First, just if you can give me an approximate number, how many
12 people were in the convoy that was led to Albania?
13 A. Well, approximately hundreds of people.
14 Q. Well, hundreds. Was it more than a thousand or less than a
16 A. Less than a thousand. The first time people escaped, there were
17 thousands of people who left through the mountains and went to Albania.
18 This time there were less than a thousand.
19 Q. You said there were 520 from your village, about 37 from Slup,
20 that's about 550. Was it more or less --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- than this amount?
23 A. No, there were more with -- including other villages, there were
24 more than a thousand, but people from our village, they were about 520,
25 560 altogether.
1 Q. Okay. You arrived in Beleg on the 27th of March. What date --
2 what date did you leave Beleg with the convoy?
3 A. We left Beleg on the 29th, as far as I remember.
4 Q. Now, from your statement, I see that you did not continue with the
5 convoy to Albania, you jumped off because some of your family had been
6 left behind and that you eventually left Kosovo to Albania with your
7 family with a different group. What date, if you can remember, did you
8 and your family leave Kosovo and go to Albania?
9 A. I remember that date very well. I left the convoy and went to
10 look for my relatives, my family. On the 30th, I arrived at Isniq and
11 joined my family. On the 30th, shelling started, so we had to leave en
12 masse, all the inhabitants that were in Isniq at the time, and we had to
13 go towards Albania.
14 Q. You said, finally, that they took your documents and IDs in the
15 Djakovica bridge.
16 MR. STAMP: And this is the last sentence in the last paragraph of
17 the statement, Your Honours.
18 Q. Who was it who took your ID documents? Or I don't need you to
19 tell me the persons individually, but did the persons belong to any
20 organisation that you could identify? And I'm just talking about those
21 who took the documents.
22 A. The persons who took our documents belonged to the police and the
23 army. This happened at the sacred bridge or "Ura e Shejte" in Albanian,
24 sometimes it's called "Ura e Drinit," the Drini bridge.
25 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours. I don't have
1 anything further in chief.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
3 Mr. Mazrekaj, when you were describing the people who arrived in
4 APCs, and you mentioned Zoran Gjurishiq as a person you recognised, in
5 your statement, you also say that you recognise a policeman inside an APC
6 who was Mushe Jakupi's son. Do you remember that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I knew him very well.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Now, Mr. O'Sullivan -- oh, sorry, Mr. Zecevic.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, we will follow the following order:
11 General Lukic, General Pavkovic, Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Milutinovic, General
12 Lazarevic, and General Ojdanic.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
17 Q. Good morning, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I'm one of the
18 attorneys for the accused, Sreten Lukic. Today, I have some questions for
19 you which I hope you can answer truthfully and concisely as possible.
20 Therefore, I would ask you to pay close attention to what I am asking
21 you -- and if you do not understand my question, please, let me now.
22 Now, first of all sir, in your statement and here -- well, the
23 past few days, you have said that in your home village of Drenovaca, there
24 were a total number of six ethnic Serb families. Could you, please, tell
25 me the total number of inhabitants in your village that these six ethnic
1 Serb families encompassed?
2 A. Drenoc had altogether 2.000 inhabitants, approximately, and 200
3 houses, Albanian and Serb, all inhabitants.
4 Q. What portion of the 2.000 inhabitants were these six Serb
6 A. These six Serb families, two of them lived in the upper part of
7 the village, while the rest were neighbours of mine. I can't tell you
8 what percentage. I don't know how many they were.
9 Q. Okay. Did these six Serb families have some surnames that you
10 recall or are familiar with, the six Serb families that were your
12 A. Yes, very well. Zecevic, Jokic, these were neighbours. So in
13 reality, in fact, these were three families of Zecevic and one Antic, four
14 families, while the rest, Antic and Marijanovic, they lived in the upper
15 part of the village.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, in your statement you mentioned a Serb
17 family that fled your village for Serbia before the war broke out. Could
18 you tell us when that family fled your village and what were the
19 circumstances under which they had to flee.
20 A. I can't tell you exactly when they left. They left for economic
21 reasons. I remember him very well. His name was Mija Antic. The others
22 remained, they stayed there.
23 Q. Okay, sir. Now, in your direct examination you testified and
24 clarified that portion of your statement where you said all the Serb
25 families left, and you clarified that by saying all the Serb families left
1 in 1998. Do you know what was the reason for all these Serb families to
2 leave in 1998?
3 A. It's not clear to me. I can't remember this. I think I said that
4 during the offensive they went to their houses in Decan, to take shelter
5 there, not that they left Kosovo.
6 Q. And when you say "during the offensive," we're talking about 1998
7 still. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. And was your village small enough so that you knew
10 most of the persons in there by name?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Great. Now, am I correct that during the time that you
13 left for Lumbarda and Pec, that is to say, prior to your -- that is to
14 say, in 1998 when you say that 64 cannons surrounded your village. Am I
15 correct that prior to that time the KLA or UCK had been operating within
16 the Decani municipality and the surrounding area and had launched
17 offensives against the Serb forces?
18 A. Yes, you're right. But it is not true that there were 68 cannons
19 surrounding our village. They were positioned at a placed call Podi i
20 Geshtenjane, and from that position the shelling was carried out towards
21 our village and all the other villages belonging to the municipality of
23 Q. Okay. Well, let me take a few moments to highlight some of the
24 KLA activities, to see what it is that you were aware of. Did you know
25 about the widely publicised attack that took place on 25 April 1996, when
1 three members of the KLA engaged in an armed attack against the Cakor
2 Restaurant with armed rifles and grenades, killing three persons and
3 wounding several others?
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Don't answer that question, please.
5 We really are going back in history now, Mr. Ivetic. The crucial
6 thing is what were the factors that might have justified the presence of
7 the army in this sort of arrangement or, indeed, the police at the time
8 that is relevant, which is 1998 --
9 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, I believe that the --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: -- two years later.
11 MR. IVETIC: Well, I believe that the 1996 incident is important
12 because that is, based upon my research, when the turning point came
13 between the relations between local Serbs and local Albanians in the area,
14 which is why I actually hadn't finished the question, which was going to
15 ask if that was the turning point when the relations soured or changed
16 somewhat. Since in his statement he identifies that the relationships
17 between Serbs and Albanians were fine, but then all of a sudden the Serbs
18 are leaving and he doesn't have a date for that information in his
19 statement. So I believe that I'm trying to clarify.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well, that explains a basis for it. On you
22 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
23 Q. Let me -- well, let me start from the beginning just so there's no
24 confusion, sir. Did you know about an event that occurred on 25 April
25 1996 when three members of the KLA, and specifically two members of the --
1 two local residents, Agron Tolaj and Arif Vokshi, engaged in an armed
2 attack upon the Cakor Restaurant, killing three persons and wounding
3 several others. Do you recall that incident, and do you recall whether
4 the relationship between the local Serbs and Albanians in the
5 municipality, and in particular in your village, changed after that event?
6 A. I cannot recall this at all. Whilst regarding the relationship, I
7 can say here that we had a good relationship with the -- especially the
8 Montenegrin minority that lived there. But it is also true that
9 relationships were worsened, were exacerbated a bit.
10 Q. Was Agron Tolaj from your village of Drenovac, was he one of the
11 Tolaj families that lived in Drenovac?
12 A. No. They did not come from Drenoc.
13 Q. Okay. Do you -- and let's move now to 1998, and in particular I'd
14 like to talk right now about June of 1998. Do you recall a series of
15 coordinated attacks that occurred over several days in June of 1998,
16 wherein Serbian family residences in 18 villages of mixed ethnicity in the
17 Decani municipality were attacked by the KLA, leading to the mass exodus
18 of all 295 Serb families from these villages?
19 A. I was personally involved in the education process and had no
20 connection at all with the KLA or their attacks.
21 Q. Well, sir, wasn't -- wasn't this a widely publicised occurrence
22 that people talked about, heard about, in June of 1998?
23 A. I cannot recall it.
24 Q. Okay. Well, do you recall whether the -- whether there was much
25 tension, as you called it, I believe, exacerbated tension or exacerbated
1 relationships after June of 1998?
2 A. This is not part of my statement.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Mazrekaj, questions are not confined to your
4 statement. I think I explained at the beginning that the reason for you
5 being here is so that you can be asked about things that go beyond your
6 statement, among other reasons; and there's no reason why these questions
7 should not be asked. Now, it's not being suggested at the moment that you
8 have any connection with the KLA.
9 What you're being asked about are matters which counsel claims
10 were within public knowledge, and you as an informed person in the area
11 are someone that counsel feels might be able to tell us if this was
12 generally speaking the situation in the area. So it would help us if you
13 could approach it on that basis and do our best to give us as much
14 information as you have from your general knowledge of the situation at
15 the time.
16 Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Again, sir, I had asked you whether what you had described as
19 exacerbated relationships between the Serbs and the Albanians, I'd like to
20 ask you if that -- if you recall whether that took place or worsened after
21 June of 1998?
22 A. Yes, they did after June 1998. Whilst regarding the relationship
23 within the is village with the Montenegrins that lived there, the
24 relationship stayed normal at all times.
25 Q. Okay. Well, let's get back to your village for a second. Based
1 on your knowledge and information, was there any KLA activity in your home
2 village; that is to say, either an active KLA presence, KLA members that
3 hailed from your village, or active material support of the KLA by persons
4 in your village?
5 A. There was no KLA presence in our village.
6 Q. And how about weapons, was anyone in your village armed either in
7 1998 or 1999?
8 A. No, with the exception of the two local policemen who bore
9 weaponry, given that they were armed by the police at Decan.
10 Q. Now, as far as your assertions that there was no KLA presence and
11 no armaments in the village, are you absolutely certain about that?
12 A. Yes, I'm fairly certain for the duration of the time I was there,
13 and I cannot speak of the time after we left the village.
14 Q. Okay. I take it then that you did not have any family members
15 that were affiliated with the KLA or engaged in smuggling arms from the
16 Republic of Albania?
17 A. No, there wasn't any.
18 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with Rram Mazrekaj, born in 1967, from the
19 village of Drenovac, a village that you have said had a population of
20 2.000 persons?
21 A. Yes, I know him very well. He's my neighbour.
22 Q. And I suppose that you are not familiar with his open -- openly
23 admitted membership in the KLA, and his boasting of the killing of Selaji
24 Istrefa [phoen] and the smuggling of weapons from Albania to further the
25 KLA cause?
1 A. Rram, regarding this issue, never said that one, because he was
2 arrested at Isniq when he was going from that village to another village.
3 He was also arrested on another occasion, as he was making his way to
4 Albania somewhere. But he was arrested up on the mountains on the Plava
5 region; and alongside a number of other people, he was sent to jail and
6 made to serve a long sentence.
7 Q. And his sentence was for smuggling arms from Albania, was it not?
8 A. No. He was caught on his way to Montenegro up in the mountains,
9 alongside other people. And he -- he alongside the other of his friends
10 was given a 15-year-long jail sentence.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, is the source of this voluntary
12 statement given by Rram Mazrekaj to the OTP or some other source?
13 MR. IVETIC: I believe it's some other source. I'm trying to
14 track down Rram Mazrekaj's statement. I had found another source that was
15 an OTP statement, talking about meeting Mr. Mazrekaj in the jail. But I
16 am about to move on to other individuals for whom I do have some
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. Now, sir, are you sure that the activities of the KLA within your
21 home village didn't have anything to do with the Serbs and the
22 Montenegrins leaving that village?
23 A. There was absolutely no connection between KLA activities and the
24 Serbs leaving.
25 Q. Okay. Do you recall, back in 1998 again, in May and June of that
1 year that the Pec-Djakovica road was in fact completely blocked by the
2 UCK/KLA, to such an extent that all normal traffic had to pass across
3 Montenegro to get to and from Pristina from Pec?
4 A. Yes, I do remember that.
5 Q. Okay. And that road is very near to your village. Isn't that
7 A. It's the road that links Gjakova and Decani. It's not too far
8 from my village, about a kilometre.
9 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about some specific persons from your
10 village, residents of Drenovac in the Decani municipality. Do you know
11 any of the following persons: Zek Mazrekaj, Dukaj, Nitaj, Baqaj Milanim,
12 Bajram Alaj, Dukaj Halil, Dukaj Vlaznim, Nitaj Gzim, Baqaj Bashkim, or
13 Ibir Alaj, do you know any of these persons?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Do you know all of these persons?
16 A. Yes, I know all of these people who come from my village.
17 Q. Okay. Would you be surprised to learn that in 1998 a staff
18 headquarters of the UCK or KLA was formed in your village headed by Dukaj
19 Halil and including Dukaj Vlaznim, Nitaj Gzim, and Baqaj Bashkim?
20 A. I don't know when this headquarters was formed. I wasn't there.
21 I was staying with my ill father for a number of days in Peje.
22 Q. Well, were you in your home village of Drenovac in April of 1998
23 at any time?
24 A. I can't remember.
25 Q. Well, let me ask you if you recall -- first of all, who is Zek
2 A. There are two Zekas there, and I don't know whether you're working
3 for the senior or the junior of the Zekajs.
4 Q. Were they related to you or were they neighbours of yours, both of
6 A. They are my neighbours.
7 Q. Okay. Now, would you be surprised to find out that in April of
8 1998 Zek Mazrekaj, Dukaj, Nitaj, Baqaj Milanim and Bajram Alaj brought 50
9 automatic rifles from Albania to your village for the use of the UCK
10 detachment stationed there? Would you be surprised or did you already
11 know that?
12 A. This fact doesn't surprise me, but I know that during this time,
13 Zek Mazrekaj was working in Germany.
14 Q. Both of the Zek Mazrekajs?
15 A. The senior of them died, and the junior was working in Germany.
16 Q. Okay. Now, what about Tahir Alaj, the son of Rexhep, Dukaj
17 Bajram, Abdullah Mazrekaj, and Sami Mazrekaj, I take it you know these
18 individuals as well, since they also hail from Drenovac?
19 A. They don't come from Drenoc. There are Mazrekajs in Prilep,
20 Sllup, and Voksh. They don't come from my village.
21 Q. Okay. So then I take it that you deny the fact that those four
22 KLA fighters died in your village in the course of battles between the UCK
23 and the Serbian forces?
24 A. Who do you mean exactly? Who was killed in my village?
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, when you repeat the question, Mr. Ivetic,
1 could we also have a date.
2 MR. IVETIC: I believe we're still talking about 1998, Your
3 Honour, specifically in March and April of 1998. And the names are Tahir
4 Alaj, the son of Rexhep; Dukaj Bajram; Abdullah Mazrekaj; and Sami
6 Q. Do you know whether in fact these persons died in your village of
7 Drenovac in March and/or April of 1998 when they were battling as members
8 of the UCK against Serbian forces?
9 A. Tahir Alaj was an elderly man who I knew very well. He died going
10 from his own house towards the Skola Bajramit [phoen] and he didn't belong
11 to the KLA at all. The other three, and their names are not correct, did
12 not come from my village.
13 Q. Okay --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Mazrekaj, how did he die?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tahir was found dead in the vicinity
16 of our school.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I don't know what he was killed
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, do you know if it was from natural causes or
21 a violent death?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Violence. It wasn't a natural
23 death. He died as a result of violence.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
25 MR. IVETIC: I would ask the usher to place Exhibit 6D103 on
1 e-court, the statement of Ibir Alaj.
2 Q. One of the individuals you indicated that you recognised as being
3 from your village. Now, while we're waiting for that come up, sir, I only
4 have the document in Serbian and in English, so I'm going to have to read
5 the relevant portions of it to you to pose questions about your
6 co-villagers and their activities?
7 MR. STAMP: May I just make an inquiry.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
9 MR. STAMP: In respect to this statement. If it was received from
10 the OTP, I just ask because I'm trying to check if the person named here,
11 who gave the statement, might well be protected in another case.
12 MR. IVETIC: This document was received from the OTP, so perhaps
13 we should maybe go into closed session just to be safe.
14 MR. STAMP: I don't know. I'm making inquiries now because I
15 think perhaps we should -- we could redact the name of the giver of the
16 statement and not use it, if it's not necessary, while the checks are
17 being made.
18 MR. IVETIC: I've got no problem with that, going into private
19 session as well or the less restrictive of the two sessions, if -- at this
20 point, if that is a concern.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll briefly go into private session to just
22 consider this.
23 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Stamp, what is the basis for your
2 MR. STAMP: In a converse case to this where members of the KLA
3 Kosovo Albanian leadership are prosecuted, there are huge security issues
4 from the witnesses. If this was a statement that was taken from
5 disclosure by the OTP, it might well be that this is a protected witness
6 so --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: And would that not be clear from the statement that
8 you give to the parties?
9 MR. STAMP: No, it would not be clear from this statement. This
10 statement is a statement that apparently was taken by the local Serbian
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. But first of all we don't know if this
13 person is a witness.
14 MR. STAMP: No, we don't.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Secondly, you're not stating any basis for claiming
16 that this name should not be in the public domain and that this trial
17 should be held partly in private to consider it. So what is the basis on
18 which that we can redact part of the transcript or go into private
20 MR. STAMP: I'm not asking for private session. I'm just asking
21 that simply the name be redacted where it was used once, while the checks
22 are made and, if necessary, not be used. If I discover the person is not
23 a witness, then the order to redact could be reversed.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what we'll do in this instance is redact that
25 one reference.
1 Mr. Ivetic, please don't use the name, if you can avoid it, but
2 draw it to my attention if it is necessary raise it.
3 MR. IVETIC: I will, Your Honours, and the exhibits have his name
4 on there so maybe we should tender them under seal at the moment.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, do you have hard copy?
6 MR. IVETIC: Do I have hard copy, yes.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: So the witness could have a trial -- if you're
8 putting the exhibit to the witness, then to so avoid it appearing on the
9 screen, you would need to give him a hard copy.
10 MR. IVETIC: I don't believe he speaks the language of either of
11 the hard copies, so that's not an issue. To be quite frank, I don't
12 think it needs to be on the screen at all, if that's a problem.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
14 MR. STAMP: Could I ask him if he speaks Serbian?
15 MR. IVETIC: I believe his witness statement said he did not --
16 oh, he does. I could give him a hard copy, Your Honour.
17 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm just wondering if we can have some
19 clarification of --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's. Can we go back into open session
21 first of all, or do you need to ask a question?
22 MR. ACKERMAN: No, I think open session is fine, Your Honour.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, Mr. Stamp was talking about danger
2 these witnesses might be involved in with regard to cases against KLA
3 members. I assume he's talking about danger they might face by testifying
4 in any way that would harm the KLA, if that's correct. I think it's
5 important to know that, because it could impact this case, too, if that's
6 a situation that prevails.
7 MR. STAMP: No, I wasn't referring to anything. In almost any
8 case we have here, there are witnesses who are -- who have to be
9 protected, especially if they say things where certain persons who are
10 charged are named. If you look at this statement, you'll see that certain
11 persons who are charged are named in this statement.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: This is an issue we can't explore in the context of
13 this debate at the moment. You know that the Bench have reservations
14 about having any part of the trial in private or redacting references that
15 have been made, but out of an abundance of caution that's been done on
16 this instance. And we shall now proceed in open session with the
17 cross-examination of the witness.
18 And I remind you, Mr. Ivetic, that you have to strike a balance in
19 cross-examination between the extent to which you present the Defence case
20 and the extent to which you cross-examine the witness on the Prosecution
21 case, and you must be getting near exhaustion of the time that might be
22 available for the former.
23 MR. IVETIC: I agree, Your Honour.
24 Q. Now, sir, first of all, do you -- your written statement to the
25 OTP says that you speak Serbian. Does that include the fact that you're
1 able to read Serbian?
2 A. I do read Serbian; however, I'm not fully competent to read this
3 piece of paper. I haven't been called here on that matter.
4 Q. That's fine. Then I think I will read in English and allow the
5 translators to translate into Albanian then for the limited few questions
6 that I have on this before moving on to the other topics.
7 Now, sir, this statement from the individual whom we will not
8 name, who hails from the village of Drenovac, in this statement he says
9 that he had to return to Drenovac in March of 1998 from where he was
10 studying, precisely because his mother had to flee the village to escape
11 fighting between the UCK/KLA and the Serb police.
12 Now, isn't it true that in March of 1998 not only was there a
13 UCK/KLA presence in your village, but that they mounted attacks from
14 within the village and engaged in fierce battles with the local police, so
15 intense that the villagers had to flee the village?
16 A. I cannot remember this. There were -- there was sporadic
17 fighting, but I am not aware of this case of Ibir Alaj, even though I know
18 him. I have never ever talked to him or ever held a meeting with him from
19 that day onwards.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Until this stage of the evidence is over, we will
21 be in private session, and that part will be redacted.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, and, Your Honours, I think I will still
2 refer to the individual without using his name for --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but it hasn't prevented the witness using it.
4 MR. IVETIC: I know, I know.
5 Q. Now, sir, this statement goes on to say at page 2 of the English
6 and page 2 of the B/C/S that:
7 "It is known to me that the first arms in the village of Drenovac
8 arrived during April 1998 in a manner by which five persons travelled to
9 RA" -- Interpreter's Note: Republic of Albania -- "from where they
10 brought three horse-loads to the village consisting of approximately 50
11 AP" -- Interpreter's Note: Automatic Rifles.
12 "This group is made up of Zek Mazrekaj, Dukaj, Binak, Dem Nitaj,
13 Baqaj Milanim, and Bajram Alaj. The arms were stored in the houses of the
14 commander of the DTG staff in Drenovac, Dukaj Halil. Further weapons were
15 later brought to the village, but since I was at the time in Prizren, I am
16 not aware who brought them or the quantities."
17 Now, sir, does this refresh your recollection as to the fact that
18 a terrorist cell of the UCK was in fact in your village and that it was
19 armed in March of 1998?
20 A. I don't remember any terrorist base in the -- in my village.
21 Q. Did you know any of these individuals that we have named as
22 participating in the arming --
23 MR. STAMP: Sorry, I've just been advised that the name is not a
24 name of a protected witness, and therefore the need for the redaction and
25 private session doesn't exist.
1 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, first of all, return to open session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Now that the position in relation to the name
6 mentioned has been clarified, the Chamber revokes the redactions of the
7 two passages in the transcript and revokes the two private session parts
8 of the evidence, and we shall proceed further in open session, Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour, and I only have about two or
10 three questions on this. And I will be moving on, I believe, to 1999.
11 Q. Now, sir, I believe I had asked you if you knew any of the
12 individuals in March and April of 1998 that were named as either being
13 part of the UCK staff in Drenovac or for bringing weapons to Drenovac.
14 Did you see any of them during that time-period? Did you socialise with
16 A. Well, I was friends with them. I went to school with them, but
17 what you're saying is not believable.
18 Q. Well, sir, it's not what I'm saying; it's what the gentleman from
19 your village is saying. And I have just one more question relating to
20 that statement. Now, in the statement he identifies specifically Tahir
21 Rexhep Alaj, Mazrekaj Abdullah, Mazrekaj Sami, and Dukaj Bajram as members
22 of the armed group in your village that died in battles with the Serbian
23 authorities. These are the individuals you said that you did not
24 recognise before. Does that refresh your recollection as to whether, in
25 fact, they were in your village at some point in time, either in March or
1 in April of 1998?
2 A. Tahir Alaj was -- he was killed in our village. The other ones, I
3 don't know them at all.
4 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Now, you identified some -- some skirmishes
5 from time to time and activity in the area. I'd like to find out where
6 exactly the KLA activity was. Mr. Alaj identifies --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I just make it clear to you, Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: We will impose a limit on this cross-examination,
10 so please be careful about what you're doing in relation to the extent you
11 are exploring the case that you yourself can advance yourself later.
12 MR. IVETIC: All right, Your Honours, I will -- that was my last
13 question on 1998, but I will move to 1999 in any event.
14 Q. Now, you described two local Albanians from your village that you
15 say collaborated with the Serbian government. How were Albanians who
16 chose not to fight against their state viewed by the other villagers?
17 A. These were two brothers, Shaban and Ali, Haxhi, Kadrijaj. Shaban
18 is about 60 years old, Ali 58. They were local policemen in our village.
19 There were other villages who had local policemen, but I'm speaking here
20 about my village. And we had good relations with them, but they
21 collaborated with the Serbian police and were armed all the time.
22 Q. Did they have uniforms different from the regular police uniforms?
23 A. Well, maybe they had the uniforms at home, but they were in plain
24 clothes when they went out in the village.
25 Q. Now, when you -- prior to March of 1999, am I correct that from --
1 when you returned in 1998 to your village to that point, despite the
2 constant presence and attacks of the KLA, that you did not have any
3 problems from the Serbian police?
4 A. When we returned to the village the second time, we found a
5 check-point in the village. They asked us to give them our IDs.
6 Q. That's already in your statement. Apart from that, did you have
7 any encounters or problems with the police?
8 A. From the time OSCE came, we did not have any problems.
9 Q. Okay. Now, let's talk about when you left your village. You've
10 already identified the source of your comments to your local -- to the
11 rest of your villagers that they were going to be separating the men and
12 the women, and we see that that was an invention of yours. You did not
13 have any knowledge -- no one had threatened to separate the men from the
14 women at the check-point or elsewhere. Isn't that correct?
15 A. That is correct what I said, and that happened later in Beleg.
16 Q. Well, when you passed Beleg, did you go through the village of
17 Prilep and did you pass by any policemen in Prilep?
18 A. We passed through the northern part of Prilep, through the fields
19 and pathways, and we got to Beleg. The policemen, we did not see them in
20 Beleg, but they were stationed around the hills in Beleg.
21 Q. Now, in March -- March 28th, while you were in Beleg at the home
22 of Zenel Vishaj, you heard shooting. And when you went outside, did you
23 see anyone shooting upon the police?
24 A. Yes, I was in the house of Zenel Vishaj with Qazim Hulaj and a
25 friend from Prilep. We heard the gun-fire and we went out. Qazim left.
1 He went down the garden, and he was killed. I did not see him, but I
2 learned later that he was killed. And then I did not leave the house any
4 Q. Sir, I asked you if you had seen anyone shooting upon the police;
5 yes or no?
6 A. No, I didn't see anyone shooting on the police.
7 Q. Did you hear about the fact that on that day and the next day
8 there was a fierce gun-fighting in nearby Pozar between members of the UCK
9 and the Serbian police in which, on a total, there were two policemen
10 killed and 15 policemen wounded on that two-day period, just in that one
12 A. Zoran Gjurishiq told me that in Beleg, at the check-point. He
13 told me, Mr. Teacher, your pupils have killed us in Pozhar and they won't
14 allow us to go and get the killed. This is what I heard from Zoran.
15 Q. Okay. Now, am I correct that prior to the arrival of the police
16 in Beleg, that UCK personnel or armed Albanians were in Beleg as well?
17 A. No, I did not see any KLA in Beleg.
18 Q. Okay. Now, I have just a handful of questions left, so I'd like
19 to go through them quickly. First of all, in what house was your sister's
20 husband Daut Alickaj located in Beleg?
21 A. The house of Adem Vishaj. We were together at that house.
22 Q. Okay. And now I'd like to ask you about this Zoran Gjurishiq.
23 What type of uniform did he have on that day?
24 A. The regular police uniform.
25 Q. Could you describe that uniform, paying attention to any colours
1 or anything on the uniform.
2 A. Well, it was the regular blue colour of the police uniform.
3 Q. Did you see anything else on the uniform?
4 A. No, I didn't. I did not go close to him. I was not allowed to.
5 Q. Okay. Now, based upon what he told you and the way he acted, did
6 you believe that he was angry over the wounded and killed police that had
7 died at the hands of the KLA and whose bodies the KLA was preventing them
8 from going to recover? Do you believe that he was angry that day?
9 A. Well, I don't know. He knows that. I'm not a psychologist to see
10 or to notice whether he was angry or not.
11 Q. Were his conversations with you calm?
12 A. Well, I didn't understand you. You mean the policemen? No, they
13 talked to me in a brutal way.
14 Q. Did you -- in your statement you say that they were drinking.
15 Were they drinking during that period of time, these persons that were
16 there in uniform?
17 A. After they detained us and took us to the second floor, downstairs
18 they continued to drink and eat and all the other ceremonies.
19 Q. All right. Now let me ask you about the APCs. First of all,
20 could you describe just the APCs that you identify as being police APCs.
21 Could you tell us a little bit about the colour, the number and location
22 of the doors, and any markings on those vehicles.
23 A. I saw the vehicles from far away. They were not close to where we
24 were, but I know that they were blue, the police colour. It was easy to
25 distinguish them. I can distinguish the army colour and the other
2 Q. Did you see any markings?
3 A. No, because it was not close; it was far.
4 Q. Did you see how many doors were on the vehicle?
5 A. No, I couldn't because we were surrounded by police and army
6 soldiers in that yard or garden where we were.
7 Q. Okay. And now, when you went to Isniq to be with your family and
8 then decided to leave for Albania, am I correct that at that point in time
9 there was no policeman present who ordered you or otherwise told you to go
10 to Albania, were there?
11 A. There was a very large group of people in Isniq from various
12 villages, and shelling started from Strellc, so from the western part of
13 Isniq, and from Podi i Geshtenjane. So the villagers said we had to
14 leave, and all of us took the way towards Albania.
15 Q. And there were no policemen present at that time in the village
16 when the villagers told you to leave and when you left for Albania?
17 A. I did not see them.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. I was exhausted.
20 Q. Thank you --
21 A. I was lying down in fact.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. IVETIC: I have no further questions for this witness.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mazrekaj.
25 MR. IVETIC: I pass to my colleagues.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
2 Mr. Ackerman.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, could I inquire how much time is left
4 for the rest of us to cross-examine.
5 MR. IVETIC: By my count, 40 minutes.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: I would reckon a bit more than that, in fact.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. Thank you.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Roughly 50 minutes.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. That's way more than enough, I'm sure.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:
11 Q. Mr. Mazrekaj, I just have some very, very brief questions for you,
12 and I think we can finish maybe even by the time of the break. When you
13 first went to Beleg, you say that the local people there told you that you
14 should stay there, because 18 Serb soldiers had been killed and the roads
15 were blocked. I take it they told you those soldiers were killed by the
17 A. These people were normal people. They were frightened, and they
18 had heard that the road to Isniq had been sealed off. So it would be
19 better for us to stay there that night until the next day, so that we
20 would see what would go -- what would happen the next day.
21 Q. Did you hear the question that I asked you? I asked you about
22 whether the soldiers were killed by the KLA. Did you hear that question?
23 A. I don't know what kind of fighting there was there, because I was
24 in Beleg and that village was far from Beleg; Pozhar was far from Beleg.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Mazrekaj, you were told 18 Serb soldiers had
1 been killed. Who did you understand had killed them?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard from the villagers that they
3 were killed in a confrontation with the KLA. This is what I heard.
4 MR. ACKERMAN:
5 Q. I want to skip now to the time when you were leaving the country
6 at this bridge where you say that the people who took your documents were
7 the police and the army. Did you hand over any documents that day?
8 A. That day I was on the tractor. The tractor was covered --
9 Q. You're not answering my question. My question is very simple:
10 Did you hand over any documents that day?
11 A. No. I didn't have any documents on me, so I didn't hand anything
13 Q. So nobody, police or army, took documents from you, did they?
14 A. They took documents from other people who were with me on the same
16 Q. And when you say "they did," were those documents handed to an
17 army person or a police person?
18 A. The documents were given to a police person.
19 Q. In questioning by Mr. Ivetic about KLA activity in your village,
20 you basically told Mr. Ivetic that there were no weapons, that there were
21 no KLA, that there were no armaments in your village. So would it be fair
22 to say that what happened in your village didn't have anything to do with
23 any armed conflict that might have been going on between the Serbian
24 forces and the KLA?
25 A. I'm not aware about these things, whether there were arms in my
1 village or whether there was KLA. I don't know about that.
2 Q. We could have probably saved some time if you've told us that much
3 earlier. I just have one -- well, I have two more questions. When you
4 were in Isniq, you say the shelling started. When you say "shelling,"
5 what are you talking about? What do you mean shelling?"
6 A. Do you mean Irzniq or Isniq? Which of the villages?
7 Q. Well, I'm now confused. Which one were you in that you left when
8 the shelling started? That's the one that I'm talking about.
9 A. The last time, we were in Isniq and not Irzniq.
10 Q. And Isniq, what are you talking about when you say "shelling
11 started?"? What do you mean "shelling started?"
12 A. Well, they started to shell the villages. They started to shell
13 Isniq as well, so we had to leave.
14 Q. What do you mean "to shell"?
15 A. Well, shelling with cannons, they know, with artillery, they know
16 what they did. The aim was to destroy the village and us.
17 Q. Where was this artillery that was firing at that village?
18 A. I said earlier they were in Zalli i Strelcit and Podi i
19 Geshtenjane. These were the main points from where they were shelling.
20 Q. And the shells were landing in this village where you were?
21 A. Yes. They were shells that came, ended up in our village and
22 other villages.
23 Q. They the houses in the village, did they?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And how many people were killed by that shelling in Isniq, where
1 you were, before you left? How many people were killed from those shells?
2 A. I don't know about Isniq, but people were killed in Strellc.
3 Q. I'm asking you about Isniq. You said there because the shelling
4 started, you had to leave. How many people were killed by that shelling
5 that you say was hitting that village?
6 A. I don't know. There were many people there, and everybody was
7 trying to find some vehicle and get prepared to go towards Albania.
8 Q. Well, weren't people, after you left there, talking about their
9 friend and relatives that didn't leave the village because they'd been hit
10 by shells? Wasn't there talk about that? Or isn't it the case that there
11 simply was no shelling and nobody was injured there or hurt?
12 A. I don't know. After we left the village, I'm not aware of how
13 many people remained in the village.
14 Q. All right. One final question then. Although you didn't say
15 anything about it in your statement to the OTP - which you, I know, had
16 occasion to review and determine whether it was correct or not - you said
17 in a separate conversation with members of the OTP that you saw members of
18 the army in the village of Beleg when you were there.
19 The question I have for you is this: If it is later shown in this
20 case that there were no army members present in Beleg at that time, then
21 what would you tell us -- who would you tell us that these people are that
22 you thought must have been army members? Who would they be then if they
23 couldn't have been army?
24 MR. STAMP: Objection. The question seems to invite speculation.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: It doesn't seem to me to be an appropriate
1 question, Mr. Ackerman. I understand why you're asking it, but I don't
2 think it's either necessary or appropriate.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: There are two administrative matters I want to deal
5 with just now. My attention's been drawn this morning to an application,
6 a joint Defence -- objection, rather, to the trial schedule for the week
7 commencing the week of the 27th of November. If we alter the actual the
8 actual projected schedule from half day to some other arrangement, then
9 there will be a scheduling order issued. All that has happened is that
10 there has been included in the court programme the potential for sitting
11 longer than simply half a day during that week and I think one other week
12 in December.
13 I can tell you that under no circumstances will we in these two
14 weeks, if we extend the hours, extend them to six hours, nor will we
15 extend them in a way that will make it unreasonable -- well, will make it
16 unreasonably difficult for the parties to continue with their preparation.
17 That's exactly what we said we would do in the previous order, and there
18 is no intention to change that. I'm sorry if a false impression has been
19 created, because in the administrations court schedule allocation has been
21 So I would invite the Defence to withdraw that application, that
22 notice; it is pointless in the circumstances.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, with the permission of my colleagues
24 we will withdraw it, and I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding. I
25 thought we could rely on those schedules that Ms. Ameerali sends us to us
1 occasionally. I thought they were done with the Court's approval.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: But where we change from the normal routine, we
3 will issue a scheduling order and you should await that or, alternatively,
4 make inquiry of Mr. Dawson if you're concerned about anything of that
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I appreciate that very much and that will be the
7 case in the future and I apologise.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Not at all. I understand why it's happened.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I just want to be clear that we're not going back
11 on what we said before and we have no intention of doing that. Obviously,
12 if unexpected events arise and we were to alert you to the possibility and
13 give you a chance to comment if we were going to change what we had said
14 in the past.
15 The second is this. There is an application for an alternation to
16 protective measures for a witness that the Prosecution seek to identify as
17 K85. In view of the schedule, it will be necessary to deal with that
18 application at some stage today. I alert the Defence to that so that
19 someone can be in a position to respond. But I also want to make it clear
20 that the Bench -- I'm sorry, Mr. Ackerman --
21 MR. ACKERMAN: I think you're in the middle of talking about that,
22 Your Honour, and I didn't want to interrupt you, but I think
23 Mr. O'Sullivan is working on that and will be here after the break and
24 will be prepared to address that issue. That's my understanding.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 I do want to say, however, that this practice of raising these
2 matters at the last minute is unacceptable to the Chamber. I have ad
3 nauseam commented on the failure of the Prosecution to present things to
4 us in an orderly way. This is another example. If there is going to be
5 delay in making final arrangements with witnesses for the presentation of
6 their evidence, applications of this nature are going to come to the
7 Tribunal -- to the Trial Chamber in circumstances where they are under
8 pressure to make a decision, and that's quite inappropriate. These
9 applications must be directed to us in time to enable the Defence to
10 respond in the usual way.
11 In future, if this happens, the witness will have to be postponed
12 until the ordinary course is followed, unless there is good cause for the
13 application coming at the last minute. And the fact that the Prosecution
14 have chosen not to speak to the witness until the last minute will not be
15 viewed by the Trial Chamber as good cause. We will, however, deal with
16 this particular one, since it's only now that we are making clear the
17 course that we will follow in the future.
18 We'll adjourn now and resume at five minutes to 11.00.
19 We have to have a break now, Mr. Mazrekaj. The usher will show
20 you where to wait for the next 20 minutes or so. If you would kindly go
21 with him.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: So we will resume at five minutes to 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry about the delayed start. I didn't
2 realise that the redactions would cause a longer period for the changeover
3 of tapes at the interval.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No questions. Thank you.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 Mr. Bakrac.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do have some questions, Your
12 Honour, but I will be brief.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mazrekaj. My name is Mihajlo
15 Bakrac, attorney-at-law, counsel for General Lazarevic.
16 In your first statement from February 2000, you didn't mention the
17 fact that some VJ members were in Beleg in March 1998 [as interpreted] and
18 you mentioned that for the first time on the 30th of October, 2006. As
19 regards that, I wanted to know the following: You saw VJ members in Beleg
20 in their vehicles. Is that correct?
21 A. Not in 1998, but in 1999. In March 1999.
22 Q. I believe I said in March 1999. There may have been an error in
23 the transcript. You saw VJ members in Beleg in March 1999 in their
24 vehicles. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, it is correct.
1 Q. And you weren't able to notice any details of the uniform as
2 regard colour or insignia. Is that correct?
3 A. I wasn't able, but at -- Mushe Jakupi was wearing an army
4 uniform -- Jakupi's son.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You were also familiar with the fact that Mushe Jakupi was a
8 member of the police, of the local police force?
9 A. It wasn't Mushe himself, it was Mushe Jakupi's sons.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Mazrekaj, let's be clear about this. The
11 person you recognised as Mushe Jakupi's son, you've just described as
12 wearing an army uniform. In your statement, you said that you recognised
13 him as a policeman. Could you clarify that for us, please.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were two sons of Mushe Jakupi,
15 one had an army uniform, the other one had a police uniform.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. I have to correct the transcript. Did you know that both of his
19 sons were members of the local security force?
20 A. No, I don't. I don't know whether they were members of the local
21 police or army, but I know them very well.
22 Q. The one son of Mushe Jakupi, which as you claim wore a military
23 uniform, can you explain what his uniform looked like.
24 A. The usual uniform that the army wore, the one that the VJ had.
25 Q. Mr. Mazrekaj, I didn't serve my military term. Could you please
1 assist me and describe for me the way the uniform looked like.
2 A. Excuse me, I'm not interested in whether you served your military
3 service, but I'm fully aware of what a military uniform looks like.
4 Q. Yes, Mr. Mazrekaj. I would kindly ask you to share your knowledge
5 with us. Please describe that uniform for us.
6 A. I don't know what you're asking me to do, if you don't know what
7 the uniform looks like. But I know very well what a police or military
8 uniform looks like. I know what the VJ army wore.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Mazrekaj, could you give us just a general
10 description, please, of that uniform.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how to describe it.
12 This appears absurd to me to be asked to describe what the military
13 uniform looks like when even little children know what it looks like.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: It may be that colour would help.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not wearing -- I can't see
16 anything that looks that colour.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Different branches of armed forces often have
18 different uniforms, and it is a reasonable line of inquiry for counsel to
19 ask you if you can help by describing the uniform in any way. You don't
20 feel you can give us any assistance?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was able to tell what an army
22 person or a police person wore. There were only those two uniforms that
23 were around; there wasn't a third one.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since you were unable to
1 extract an answer, I will not press this any further. I will just ask Mr.
2 Mazrekaj to tell me whether he would be unable to describe the difference
3 between the military and the police vehicles as well, or rather, can he
4 provide that description for us.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were different. The army
6 vehicles had their own colour and police vehicles were blue.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You say the military vehicles had their own colour. What colour
9 was that?
10 A. It was grey.
11 Q. Were they monochrome grey? When you say "grey," it was a solid
12 colour, I guess?
13 A. It wasn't mixed up at all. It was what I call the army colour.
14 Q. Did you see any symbols on the vehicles?
15 A. No. Because I wasn't too close and able to read.
16 Q. I believe they had wheels, didn't they?
17 A. We were somewhere on a hill, a bit in a courtyard, and there were
18 people mounted on them.
19 Q. If I understand you well, Mr. Mazrekaj, you are telling us that
20 you couldn't see any details on the vehicles because they were far away
21 and it's a hilly terrain.
22 A. Yes, it was a hilly terrain, but we were very able to see the
23 people mounted on them. And they the targets trained on us and I was able
24 to distinguish the colours very well.
25 Q. When you say they trained their weapons on you, what sort of
2 A. The guns, they were all trained on us.
3 Q. Mr. Mazrekaj, I have just one more question for you. If I
4 understood properly, you were at the rear of the column which set out from
5 Beleg. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And it comprised some 1.000 people, as you stated today?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How long was it?
10 A. A bit more than that. It went through a flat road in the
11 direction of Carrabreg; however, I was unable to measure it. I didn't
12 have a tape measure on me.
13 Q. Mr. Mazrekaj, I'm not asking you to be precise, but as a geography
14 teacher I believe you can navigate in space. So can you tell us, was it
15 two 2 kilometres long?
16 A. The convoy was about one and a half kilometres, a bit longer
18 Q. And as far as I understand, Mr. Mazrekaj, before the column
19 reached Djakovica you abandoned the column; you jumped off and left?
20 A. I wasn't part of the convoy. I got off at the bridge called
21 Bridge of Bajram Hasani. That's not part of the statement.
22 Q. You separated together with your tractor, or did you go on foot?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where did you go with your tractor?
25 A. No, I was on my own. Someone else was driving the tractor.
1 Q. But you left the column, you yourself riding on your tractor. Is
2 that correct?
3 A. No, no. A girl was driving the tractor, whilst I was moving on
4 foot through the fields. I was not with them.
5 Q. Therefore, Mr. Mazrekaj, you were not able to see the vehicles at
6 the front of the column, which is contrary to what you stated today. Is
7 that correct?
8 A. No, you misunderstood me. The [indiscernible] were in the
9 direction of Beleg and we moved towards Beleg and not on the occasion when
10 we went towards Gjakova and then towards Albania.
11 Q. No, Mr. Mazrekaj, I'm asking you about the column which set out
12 for Beleg. In your statement, on the last page, you stated, on the way to
13 Decani, I realised we were being sent to Djakovica. When the vehicles
14 slowed down, I jumped off my tractor, whilst now we are receiving a
15 completely new piece of information. I would be interested to find out
16 which is correct.
17 A. When we set off from Beleg, we headed towards Decan; however, at
18 Carrabreg, our direction was changed and we were veered towards Gjakova.
19 So when we arrived at the bridge, there was a lorry and a column of
20 tractors, and I got off but they continued their route towards Gjakova.
21 But this was the journey from Beleg. I think -- and it includes those
22 people who went to Albania.
23 Q. Since you were at the rear of the column, which was almost 2
24 kilometres long, you couldn't see who was at the front - am I not correct
25 in asserting that - and then you also abandoned the column?
1 A. I left the column when the column reached the main road towards
2 Gjakova. There was a big lorry of the police. And when the police and
3 Male Vishaj's son was driving the lorry with women on board and they left,
4 that was the point where I was able to notice how long this convoy was and
5 the number of vehicles in it.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mazrekaj.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no more questions
8 for this witness.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 Mr. Mazrekaj, you said at one point in that evidence that you had
11 left the tractor and you were on foot going through the fields and a girl
12 drove the tractor. Who was the girl?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The girl came from my village.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: And was that when you were in the convoy from
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 Mr. Visnjic.
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mazrekaj, my name is Tomislav Visnjic,
22 counsel for General Ojdanic. I have a few questions for you.
23 Mr. Mazrekaj, is it correct that the village of Istinic is some 5
24 kilometres away from your village?
25 A. It's about 5 kilometres and a bit more.
1 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Sinanaj Brahim Beta [phoen],
2 who owned a shop in Istinic or in one of the surrounding locations?
3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 3D99, page 2
5 Q. Do you know of such a person?
6 A. I have heard that there are Betas in Isniq. I do not know this
7 person in particular, but I am aware that there are Betas in Isniq.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the position's been clarified, Mr. Visnjic,
9 but Istinic, as you pronounce, is the same place as Isniq. Is that
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Isniq and Irzniq are two different
13 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that.
14 But your interest, Mr. Visnjic, is in the village which in
15 Albanian is called Isniq. Is that right?
16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I'm still waiting for
17 the interpretation. I believe Istinic and Isniq are the two names for
18 that same location; one name is in Albanian, the other in Serbian. Since
19 we had the confusion a minute ago about Irzniq and Isniq, I intentionally
20 used this Serb name so as to make it clearer.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Mehaj Alija, who is also from
25 A. No, I don't know him.
1 Q. How about a Islamaj Islam?
2 A. I don't know, no.
3 Q. Do you know, Mr. Mazrekaj, that in February 1999, on several
4 occasions, some uniformed KLA members visited several families in the area
5 of Istinic and threatened to kill them because of the following reasons:
6 Because they organised the handing over of weapons in September 1998,
7 because they cooperated with the police, and because they didn't support
8 the KLA, they didn't send any of their family members to the KLA. Are you
9 familiar with any of the incidents that took place in Istinic in February
11 A. No, I'm not familiar with this, no.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a second, please, Mr. Visnjic.
14 Mr. Mazrekaj, you told us yesterday that you had been appointed or
15 elected a sort of supervisor in your village. Did no one draw to your
16 attention that uniformed KLA members had been or had visited them?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No one did.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 Mr. Visnjic.
20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mazrekaj.
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I would like Defence Exhibit 3D99,
23 page 6, to be prepared.
24 Q. Am I right if I say that a neighbouring village, Locane, is about
25 1 kilometre away from your village, your village of Drenovac?
1 A. Yes, probably less than 1 kilometre. We're adjacent villages.
2 Q. You told us that there were no Serb families in your village in
3 March 1999. Am I right?
4 A. They left the village and went and occupied flats in Decan.
5 Q. They left before March 1999?
6 A. Yes, they left. Some of them left earlier, some later. And from
7 time to time they came back to look after their houses, the animals they'd
8 left behind, the livestock.
9 Q. And are you aware, Mr. Mazrekaj, that in the village of Locane,
10 families Antic, Simic, Popovic, Denicevic, and Mijatovic left the village
11 on the 22nd March, 1999, because they were ordered by KLA soldiers to do
13 A. I do know these families, almost all of them. I do not know
14 exactly when they left the village.
15 Q. I'll remind you then. They left on the 22nd of March, 1999. Does
16 that help you any?
17 A. I cannot recall the exact date they left the village.
18 Q. Maybe you will be assisted by this: Their houses were burned down
19 on the 24th and 25th of March, 1999.
20 A. I was not in Lloqan, so I'm not aware of the date when the houses
21 were burned, and that includes Albanian and Serb houses.
22 Q. Were you in your village on the 24th and 25th of March, 1999?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Didn't you see any smoke coming from the neighbouring village,
25 which was less than a kilometre away?
1 A. Our village is a bit elongated towards the rear part of that
2 village, so I wasn't too close to be able to see.
3 Q. You told us you were the senior in the village. Did nobody tell
4 you of the other villages? Did anybody tell you the news that 500 or 800
5 metres away from your village houses were burning?
6 A. No. Because at that time our movement was restricted.
7 Q. Mr. Mazrekaj, is it your evidence today that you saw nothing
8 because you know that in Locane village, in the period from at least the
9 22nd of March until the 25th of March, there were KLA soldiers?
10 A. No. I don't know anything about a presence. From the 27th, when
11 we left the village, we went to Beleg. And the two or three days before
12 that, I did not have any information about the KLA.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Mazrekaj, when did you first learn that Serb
14 houses in Locane village had been burned?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never heard this, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 Mr. Visnjic.
18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further
19 questions of this witness. I would just like --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
21 Mr. Ivetic, if you did feel that you wanted to make use of a
22 further seven or eight minutes, that would be open to you.
23 MR. IVETIC: I'm fine with the cross I completed, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
25 Mr. Stamp.
1 MR. STAMP: I have no re-examination, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Mazrekaj, that completes your evidence. Thank
5 you for coming to the Tribunal to give evidence and for assisting us. You
6 are now free to leave.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, and I wish you
8 success in your work.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, does Mr. Zogaj now return?
12 MR. STAMP: Yes. I think the next witness is Shefqet Zogaj.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
14 MR. STAMP: While he's on his way, Your Honour, can I just step
15 out briefly for a personal break?
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Certainly.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Zogaj.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Please be seated. You gave evidence earlier in the
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: And at that stage you make a solemn declaration to
25 speak the truth. That declaration continues to apply to your evidence
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: And you will now be cross-examined by Defence
4 counsel, and I will ascertain first of all the order in which that will
5 take place.
6 Mr. O'Sullivan.
7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes. First will be General Pavkovic, General
8 Lukic, General Lazarevic, Mr. Milutinovic, Mr. Sainovic, and General
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 WITNESS: SHEFQET ZOGAJ [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Zogaj.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. I'm not going to take up a great deal of your time. You've made
19 several statements over the course of your dealings with the Office of the
20 Prosecutor I see. And one thing that has struck me about at least
21 portions of your statements is that they have a kind of a journalistic
22 flare to them, which probably comports with your experience as a
23 journalist. Would you agree with that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I can give you an example. For instance, in your statement of
1 April of 1999, in paragraph 2, you're talking about on the 20th of March
2 of 1999 when you were in Suva Reka for the last time. You said: "The town
3 was empty of people." You only found seven people from one end to the
4 other; and then you say: "There was great fear about." And that's what I
5 mean by kind of journalistic flair. The only people who could have had
6 fear, I suppose, were those seven people that were left in the village;
8 A. I have to clarify something here, please. On the 20th of March,
9 1999, this was the day when the OSCE mission withdrew from Suhareke. In
10 Suhareke, you could see only some Serb civilian vehicles. The town was
11 completely empty, and there was no movement of the population. There was
12 nobody in town.
13 Some of the shops were open, but there were no people. And when
14 we speak about Suhareke, after OSCE left, this was the time when the Serb
15 paramilitary, army, and police forces started their operations in the
16 direction of the village of Rreshtan. This is what I said.
17 Q. And this is all in your statement, which is part of the evidence,
18 and I think it was unnecessary for you to tell us all that stuff that was
19 in there. The thing I found kind of is striking was - and you just
20 emphasised it - the town was basically empty; and yet you said there was
21 great fear about. All I was suggesting was the only people who could have
22 been afraid, I guess, were those seven Serbs, apparently, that were left
24 A. No, absolutely not.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: To clarify this, where were the people?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These people were moving in the
2 streets of Suhareke.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: You say there was seven people around, but there
4 were the rest of the population?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we say "seven people," these
6 were seven Serb persons moving about. While in the centre of the Council
7 for the Protection of Human Rights, they had an office in Suhareke, there
8 were only four or five people there.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
10 MR. ACKERMAN:
11 Q. In paragraph 3 of that same statement is a bit unclear to me. You
12 talked about leaving Suva Reka and going in the direction of the village
13 of Pecane. You walked through the main road that passed through Restane
14 and Studencane on the way to Orahovac. You saw a convoy. You say there
15 was a Serbian police check-point at Restane, and then you say: "The other
16 areas were controlled by the UCK." Now, what other areas was it you're
17 referring to that were controlled by the UCK?
18 A. I have to add something here. I don't --
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you don't add something.
20 Answer my question. What other areas were controlled by the UCK?
21 A. I cannot respond to your question without clarifying something.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't agree with that, Mr. Zogaj. You can answer
23 that question; and then, if clarification is sought, one of us will seek
24 it. But you say the other areas were controlled by the UCK. Please tell
25 us what other areas you're referring to.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During this period, the areas
2 controlled by the KLA were: Decan, Semetisht, Doberdolan, Pagarusha,
3 Samadrazhe, and some other villages.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 Mr. Ackerman.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you go on, I want to be clear what you mean
8 in your statement, going back to the previous issue. Your statement
9 says: "I only found a few people in the town. I only found seven from
10 one end to the other. I saw nothing but police cars that were without
11 licence plates. All the cars belonging to the civilian population, none
12 of them were moving. There was great fear about."
13 Where were the Albanian population?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Albanian population was inside
15 their own houses, in Suhareke.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 Mr. Ackerman.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
19 MR. ACKERMAN:
20 Q. All right. I'm going to paragraph 11 now. That's on page 4 where
21 you say this: "A large convoy of Serbian police, military, and
22 paramilitaries had reached Malisheve from the direction of Orllat
23 consisting of 40 heavy military vehicles. I saw this from the hill at
24 Banja." And I want to ask you about this convoy.
25 When was this that you saw this? Can you give us a date?
1 A. I don't think I said from the hill of Orllat. I said from the
2 district of Malisheve, from the village of Ajkali [phoen].
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure about the name of
4 the village.
5 MR. ACKERMAN:
6 Q. Well, there may be an interpretation problem here; let me see if
7 we can clear it up. Your statement says that this convoy had reached
8 Malisheve from the direction of Orllat, O-r-l-l-a-t, and that you saw it
9 from a hill at Banja. Now, is that correct or not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. When did this happen? When did you see this?
12 A. This happened on the 28th of March, 1999, 27th and 28th of March.
13 Q. Well, you're on this hill at Banja and you see this convoy arrive.
14 You saw it arrive on the 27th and the 28th? It arrived on two days?
15 A. Because it's been a long time. Now I think it was the 28th of
16 March when the convoy of the police and paramilitary arrived there, and
17 they started to shell in the direction of the villages, Banja, Dragobil,
18 Senik, Lladroc. And on the same day, a whole family suffered from the
19 shelling and Velime Begaj was killed; she died.
20 Q. The thing I want to suggest to you is that if you don't remember a
21 date or something like that, I'd much prefer you to tell me you don't
22 remember than to sort of guess what day it might have been. You can say
23 it could have been the 27th or the 28th, I'm not sure. But you don't have
24 to give me a date just because I ask for one if you don't remember. Do
25 you understand that?
1 A. It was on the 28th of March.
2 Q. Thank you. Tell us how you distinguished between police,
3 military, and paramilitary.
4 A. Well, it's their uniforms.
5 Q. And could you describe those specifically for each of the three?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Please do so.
8 A. I earlier brought some photographs of the Serbian police here,
9 together with their tanks. The police wear blue; the Serb army wear
10 green, camouflage; while the paramilitary uniforms are various. They were
11 wearing black uniforms, they had bandannas on their heads and on their
12 necks. Some of them had shaven heads. Some others wore big beards.
13 Isn't this real? We also have photographs of all of these. If you don't,
14 I have the photographs here with me.
15 Q. Well, I wasn't challenging anything. I was just asking you to
16 tell us on what you base those conclusions, and you did so, and I
17 appreciate it. Thank you.
18 Paragraph 13 of your statement which begins on page 4 and
19 continues over to page 5, there's some confusing language there that I
20 don't really understand. What you say - and I don't know if I can put you
21 in the scene or not, but you'll remember it when I talk about it - "I had
22 only moved about a metre down the lane when two Serbian soldiers and
23 paramilitaries came wearing black uniforms and scarves around their necks.
24 They pulled me out of the car."
25 Do you remember that?
1 A. Yes, I said that. This happened on the 1st of April --
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. -- of 19 --
4 Q. And what I want to ask you about that is: These two Serbian
5 soldiers and paramilitaries, were they soldiers, were they paramilitaries,
6 were they both? If they were wearing black uniforms and scarves, they
7 would be what you describe as paramilitaries. I just don't understand.
8 Where did the "Serbian soldiers" language come from?
9 A. The Serbian politics never understands the things that have really
10 happened. On the 1st of April, I was pulled out of my car by two Serb
11 policemen, and I was taken to the basement of my house. I was beaten up
12 there, robbed, and they hit me --
13 Q. Please stop. You're not answering my question.
14 A. I think I answered your question.
15 Q. No, I'm asking you about these two Serbian soldiers and
16 paramilitaries that came wearing black uniforms with scarves around their
17 necks. Why did you describe -- why do you say "Serbian soldiers"? If
18 they were wearing black uniforms with scarves around their necks, they're
19 paramilitaries, aren't they?
20 A. In my statement I said that in Bellanice village, paramilitaries,
21 soldiers, and police forces entered my village, but I was beaten by the
22 policemen. I was beaten three times within half an hour.
23 Q. You are not answering the question.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Ackerman, he may be. If you read the
25 rest of that paragraph --
1 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm going there, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: -- particularly, the third-last complete line, is
3 there not even more confusion about who is responsible for initiating
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, that's where I was trying to get, but I
6 couldn't get through the first statement to get to the second one.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I think that's because the witness has the
8 latter part in mind as well. So I think he has to be faced with the whole
9 of this and then asked if he could clarify it.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll do that.
11 Q. First you tell us: "Two Serbian soldiers and paramilitaries in
12 black uniforms and scarves around their necks, pulled you out of the car.
13 You talk about have had a video camera and an audio recorder that were a
14 gift. And then you say: "The police grabbed me by the throat and pulled
15 me from the car." Now, did you --
16 A. No, please, Your Honour. I did not give any gifts to anybody.
17 Serbs do not deserve any gifts. Two policemen took those things forcibly
18 from me. Don't laugh. Please, don't laugh.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zogaj, you are misunderstanding the position.
20 It's clearly said in your statement that you had received these items as
21 gifts from another person. That's irrelevant. Just leave it out of
22 consideration; it's quite clear in the statement. Concentrate on the two
23 points where you have said who was responsible for removing you from the
24 car. Now, you've said at one stage two Serbian soldiers and
25 paramilitaries wearing black uniforms and scarves around their necks
1 pulled me out of the car."
2 You've then said: "Police grabbed me by the throat and pulled me
3 out of the car."
4 Now, we are confused about this and would like you to clarify it.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the police entered our street,
6 what I think I said was there were paramilitaries and soldiers, while I
7 was pulled out of the car by two Serb policemen. I was taken into the
8 basement; I was robbed. They took my camera and other equipment,
9 journalistic equipment; money as well. And they also shot, fired, their
10 guns in the basement. You can find the traces today there.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: That's sufficient for the moment. Mr. Ackerman
12 will undoubtedly have other questions to clarify the particular point, the
13 particular point, that we are concerned about.
14 Mr. Ackerman.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. So are you saying now that it was the police that pulled you out
17 of the car and not the Serb military/paramilitary that you talk about?
18 A. Yes. Yes, it was the police.
19 Q. All right. I'm going to go on to another subject now?
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you're also saying that the army and
21 paramilitaries were there when this was happening, as I understand it.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: But your description of them is: "Two Serbian
24 soldiers and paramilitaries came wearing black uniforms and scarves around
25 their necks." That's what you've actually said. Now, that's a very
1 confusing statement. What were they? Were they soldiers, these two
2 people, or were they paramilitaries?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was pulled out from the car by the
4 policemen. But around the area there, there were paramilitaries and
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, regrettably, that's not clear from your
7 statement but it's perhaps a little clearer now.
8 Mr. Ackerman.
9 MR. ACKERMAN:
10 Q. I want to go to your next statement in June of 2001. You talk
11 about April 1st, again around 11.00, the village of Belanica and shelling
12 of that village. You say that large military, paramilitary, and police
13 Serb forces had burned and destroyed everything that was Albanian,
14 property in the above-mentioned villages. And those villages must be
15 something other than Belanica. Can you tell me what other villages you're
16 talking about.
17 A. Yes, the village Semetisht, Decan, Bllace, Banje, et cetera.
18 Q. And you didn't actually see the burning and destruction of
19 Albanian property in these villages at the time it was done, did you? You
20 didn't see who was doing it?
21 A. I saw that myself. That was done by the military and police
22 forces, headed by the six accused here.
23 Q. Oh. They were there, were they? The six accused were there? You
24 saw them there that day?
25 A. They weren't present, but they were the ones who gave the orders
1 for everything that happened in Kosova.
2 Q. Oh, well tell us where you saw the orders. Where did you see
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, we're not going down this road. The
5 answer given by the witness was it done by the military and police
6 forces headed by the six accused here. All that amounts to is a statement
7 that they had responsibilities for military and police forces. Let's
8 concentrate on the issues that really concern us.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, how on earth would he know that?
10 Q. How would you know that? How would you know they had any
11 responsibility for that? Did you see orders?
12 A. I see them here amidst us; that's why they are here, to answer for
13 their crimes.
14 Q. So just because they are sitting here, you've assumed they must be
15 guilty. Is that your position?
16 A. If they had been -- had not been guilty, they wouldn't be in
18 Q. Well, I'm sure glad the Judges don't see this the way you do. So
19 I guess you see your job here as -- to give evidence that would help
20 confirm your belief that they are responsible in some way for what you
21 say. Is that what you see your job here to be?
22 A. They are responsible for the crimes committed in Kosova.
23 Q. I understand that's your position. So when you say that you saw
24 military, paramilitary, and police Serb forces, that's just a catch-all
25 phrase that you use every time, because you know that that would help in
1 your mission to assist in making these people behind me responsible for
2 what happened. And that's why you use that. It's not because you saw all
3 those forces, is it?
4 A. I have seen the Serb army and the police burning down entire,
5 killing, massacring; killing even the livestock. I have got pictures in
6 my possession to prove what the Serbs did in Kosova, charred houses. Is
7 this not a crime?
8 Q. Paragraph 45 of your statement, the 2nd of April you were at the
9 Morina border point, and you say: "A civilian Serb dressed in black,
10 armed with a pistol, came up from the border point toward us." On what
11 criteria do you conclude that this was a civilian Serb?
12 A. I know he was a Serb. He didn't come there, but he was present
13 and he was there for the purpose of ill-treating Albanians that they were
14 kicking out of their own country. And he was the one who continually
15 mistreated us. He wasn't an American, neither was he a German; he was a
17 Q. Do you understand the question --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zogaj, your job here -- your job here is not as
19 an advocate for any case; you're here as a witness. And I hope you will
20 bear that very much in mind as you answer the questions. You were asked a
21 specific question there, which was: "On what criteria do you conclude
22 that this was a civilian Serb?" And you gave us no basis for reaching
23 your conclusion.
24 Now, if it was left at that, we would say: There's no evidence
25 before us that that man was a Serb. Why don't you just listen to the
1 questions and answer them? And I assure you, you will do far more good to
2 the case the Prosecution are presenting than you will do by deciding that
3 you will advocate a cause rather than answer questions.
4 Mr. Ackerman.
5 MR. ACKERMAN:
6 Q. Did you not understand the question to be: How did you determine
7 this person was a civilian? Did you not understand the question?
8 A. He was wearing plain clothes, plain clothes.
9 Q. Well, you said he was wearing -- he was dressed in black, and
10 you've talked about paramilitary wearing black. What was the difference
11 between his black clothes and paramilitary black clothes?
12 A. Just a moment.
13 Q. And it would help if you waited until I finish my question before
14 you start answering it, I think. Now, did you hear the question?
15 A. Yes, I did hear the question. At this point in time, there's me
16 here wearing black clothes, but he was a Serb.
17 Q. You know --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: For reasons which we don't need to determine at the
19 moment, counsel want you to try to explain how you came to the conclusion
20 that he was a Serb. Now, it may not sound a terribly sensible question to
21 you, I don't know, but it is a question which is undoubtedly admissible in
22 this Tribunal. Could you please try and assist us by answering the
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a Serb. I have no other
25 comment to make.
1 MR. ACKERMAN:
2 Q. All right. In February of 2002, you did a very short witness
3 statement where you made, what you called, a correction, with regard to an
4 individual by the name of Zoran Lazic. In your -- in another statement
5 you had said that Zoran Lazic was chairman of the municipality of
6 Suhareke. And then you wanted to make a change to say what you meant to
7 say was that Zoran Lazic was the chief criminal in the municipality of
8 Suhareke. Can you explain that, why at one point you would call him the
9 chairman of the municipality and then say, no, no, chief criminal?
10 A. When I said the "chief of municipality," I got that version from
11 the KLA. But overnight, the Serbian police changed the personnel in the
12 police, in the municipality, and everywhere else.
13 Q. So some of the things the KLA told you that you have put in your
14 statement turned out not to be true, right? Can I get an answer?
15 A. What was it that transpired not to be true?
16 Q. You said that you got the original information about Zoran Lazic
17 from the KLA; then you found out that wasn't the case, and that's why you
18 changed it to "chief criminal." Or was it "chief criminal", the
19 information you got from the KLA?
20 A. What I said was that he was chairman, but overnight there were
21 changes in Kosova. The heads of services -- of the internal services of
22 Serbia were changed.
23 Q. All right. We're going to have to explore this just a little
24 bit --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, yeah. Well, we'll do it after we have a
1 break, Mr. Ackerman. We lost some time at the last one, so we'll restrict
2 this break and we'll resume at 20 minutes to 1.00.
3 Mr. Zogaj, we have to have a break at this stage for 20 minutes or
4 so. Could you please accompany the usher; he will show you where to wait
5 while we have this break. And we'll see you again at 20 minutes to 1.00.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Thanks, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Zogaj, we were talking about that last correction statement
13 that you gave regarding Zoran Lazic. And in answer to my question about
14 that, you said this, and I have it on the screen here in front of me, so I
15 want to be accurate. "When I said the 'chief of municipality,' I got that
16 version from the KLA." That kind of makes it clear that you were having
17 conversations with the KLA about what your testimony was going to be in
18 this Tribunal. Is that true?
19 A. When I made the statement, I based it on information gathered from
20 the KLA. I couldn't stay with other Albanians [as interpreted], and they
21 knew that he was the chief of that municipality.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Correction from the interpreter: I couldn't
23 stay with the Serbs.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: I think I have no further questions, Your Honour.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Part of the answer doesn't seem to make any sense
2 where you say: When you made the statement, you based it on information
3 gathered from the KLA. The transcript then says: "I couldn't stay with
4 other Serbs, and they knew that he was the chief of that municipality."
5 Is that what you said?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said Albanians. We Albanians
7 could in no way mingle with the Serbs, solely with Albanians; and in the
8 course of conversations we had with Albanians at the time, they told me
9 that Lazic was chief of the municipality. I repeated it before and I
10 shall repeat it again. Serbian policy changed its leaders overnight.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: I find it difficult then to see how you jump from
12 that to say he's the chief criminal. Can you help me?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because he had been identified
14 in the midst of the population as someone who'd committed crimes.
15 Following the NATO bombardment on Kosova, on the 25th of March, in
16 Suhareke and its surrounding villages --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Please don't go on on that subject. I -- if the
18 matter -- if counsel wish to explore the matter further, they may do so.
19 You're complete, Mr. Ackerman, are you?
20 MR. ACKERMAN: I think so, Your Honour. Thank you.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
22 Mr. Ivetic.
23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
25 Q. Good day, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I am one of the
1 attorneys for Mr. Lukic. I will have you some questions here today and I
2 would kindly request you to pay close attention to my questions and give
3 me the most concise and truthful answer possible so that we may move along
4 as efficiently as possible.
5 Now, first of all, you have just indicated that a portion of your
6 statement was based on information that the KLA gave you. Are there other
7 portion of this statement that are based upon the KLA; that is to say, are
8 we to take this statement as being your recollection of what you saw and
9 what you know or a report of what the KLA wanted the Court to hear?
10 A. It's only that bit of information that comes through my talks with
11 the KLA; the rest of it does not.
12 Q. Okay. Now, when you were here several weeks ago giving your
13 direct examination, you identified at page 3792 of the transcript, line
14 23, you identified a particular tank as being a Serb police tank. And
15 today I believe you also testified that you had brought pictures of the
16 Serbian police uniforms and their tanks. Could you please help me out and
17 describe for me what these Serbian police tanks looked like. How do you
18 differentiate them from other tanks?
19 A. From the colour.
20 Q. What colour would these Serbian police tanks be?
21 A. Blue colour.
22 Q. Now, sir, you're not telling me, are you, that in the course of
23 your time in Kosovo and Metohija, you actually saw blue police tanks
24 operating anywhere in the municipalities where you were at?
25 A. There were about 30.000 troops, police, army, and paramilitary,
1 Serbs involved in Kosovo, and Sreten Lukic headed these forces.
2 Q. Sir, I asked you about tanks --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zogaj, have you with you a photograph of what
4 you say was a Serb police tank?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you please let me see it.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 Just a clarification, if I may.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Give it to the usher, please.
10 Give it to Mr. Ivetic first of all, please, so that he can see the
11 actual exhibit, and then we shall put it on the ELMO.
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Q. Sir, this appears to be what is known as a BOV, rather than a
16 tank. Is this the type of tank that you claim the Serbian police in Suva
17 Reka utilised at the time you witnessed them in 1999?
18 A. Yes. That is exactly what they were. I'm not a military man, and
19 I cannot cite numbers and figures here. But yes, there was the type of
20 vehicle that belonged to the Serbian police?
21 Q. And am I correct that this type of vehicle does not have armaments
22 on it? There is no cannon on this vehicle?
23 A. Well, if it had any, they'd show; if it doesn't have any cannons,
24 it does have good enough --
25 Q. Now, the confusion I have relates to the vehicle that you
1 described at transcript page 3792, line 23, because that vehicle was not
2 this type of vehicle; that was an actual tank with a cannon on it. How do
3 you explain that difference?
4 A. I took this picture in Pristina during protests organised in 1997;
5 however, this type of weaponry and artillery belonging to the Serbian
6 forces was operational throughout.
7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, is there some method of us preserving
8 this that's on the ELMO and having it admitted as an exhibit?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: There is indeed, but before you move on you gave a
10 quotation from page 3792. Did you mean to say that?
11 MR. IVETIC: That's what it shows on my version of it, line 23.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it not 3692?
13 MR. IVETIC: Mine says 3792. It's dealing with Exhibit P1325, if
14 that's of assistance.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: The witness's evidence concluded on the copy I have
16 at page 3699.
17 MR. IVETIC: You know what, Your Honour, that may have been the
18 day that we had that glitch with the transcript system, so that may be why
19 we have different numbers. In any event, it's dealing with Exhibit P1325
20 which at that point in time --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, you're quoting our transcript?
22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, our transcript.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm looking at the Milosevic transcript.
24 MR. IVETIC: I'm quoting ours from the 22nd of September, 2006.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the photograph can be scanned from the ELMO
1 and will be given an in-court exhibit number.
2 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC103, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 And if you're finished with the photograph, it can be returned to
6 the witness, since we have the copy.
7 MR. IVETIC: Correct. I can move on to the next one.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, just to be clear. We need to retain it
10 until it's properly scanned, I'm sorry, and then it will be returned to
11 you, Mr. Zogaj.
12 MR. IVETIC: I assume I can proceed while that's being scanned?
13 JUDGE BONOMY: You can now proceed.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Now I'd like to have Exhibit P1325 placed on e-court, the Exhibit
16 that was discussed on the 22nd of September, 2006; and it will be page 2
17 of that exhibit.
18 Q. Now, Mr. Zogaj, on the 22nd of September, you were asked by the
19 Prosecutor, at line 19, page 3792: "Can you say whether or not the
20 vehicles you see here were vehicles that were used in the operation in
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. How many one of them?
24 "A. The one here under number 5, it belonged to the Serbian
1 Now, sir, the vehicle listed, in number 5, does not resemble in
2 any way the vehicle you have just shown us a photograph of, does it?
3 A. This photograph number 5, yes, it does belong to Serbian police.
4 Q. Based upon what do you conclude that vehicle number 5 belongs to
5 the Serbian police?
6 A. The colour, from the colour.
7 Q. Well, the colour, to me, appears to be green camouflage. Is it
8 your testimony here today that the Serbian police drove around in tanks
9 that were green camouflage? You earlier told us they were all blue.
10 A. This belonged to the police. This is a photograph of Serb -- of a
11 Serbian police weapon. This is the type of weaponry used by the Serbian
13 JUDGE BONOMY: We have that evidence from you, Mr. Zogaj. The
14 question being put to you is that you had earlier indicated that police
15 vehicles were blue, and this one certainly is not blue.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The camouflage, yes, it's blue and
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well --
19 MR. STAMP: Perhaps, I don't know if it would help if we zoom in a
20 little bit more on the photograph.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: You say that's blue camouflage, do you?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are a number of colours here
23 on this type of tank. There is blue, green; you can see something reddish
24 or orange, white.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you take any photographs of vehicles like this
1 in the same way as you took the other one?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have other photographs as well,
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Of this type of vehicle?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We possess other photographs, which
6 were left behind by Serbian forces after withdrawing from Kosova, and we
7 do possess them now.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about
9 photographs that you personally took of vehicles as you observed them. Do
10 you have any pictures you took of a vehicle like the one now on the
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Luckily - and I said this at the
13 beginning of the statement in Tirana - God-willing and should I be able to
14 find the basement of my house intact, there we would be able to find facts
15 of the crimes committed of the Serbs in Kosova. However, upon returning
16 to Kosova, I found out that it had been burned out. There's a series of
17 pictures here, which I can hand over, to demonstrate the traces left by
18 the Serbs in Kosovo.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll take that as a no to the question I've asked.
20 Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't think that was a no.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Zogaj, if you refuse to answer my
24 questions, I will simply treat them as a "no." My simple question is
25 whether you have in your possession there a photograph you took of a which
1 resembles the one on the screen. That's all I want to know at the moment.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not the same. Here it is.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: In that case, I don't want to see it at the moment.
4 That's a matter for counsel to raise with you if they wish. I have a
5 particular question I wish answered.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a different type of
7 weaponry. It's another type of an artillery weapon I'm holding aloft.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Which you say is what?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is similar in colour and, as I
10 said before, I cannot distinguish the types of weaponry, not being of -- a
11 military person myself. That's the type of weaponry used by the police.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: My concern is about police equipment at the moment.
13 Now, are you saying that the photograph you have in your hand is of a
14 weapon that was used by the police?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Where was the photograph taken?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We found this in Suhareke. We found
18 it in Suhareke.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zogaj, I have made it abundantly clear. My
20 question relates to photographs you personally took. Do you understand
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The photograph I handed over earlier
23 is one which I took myself, while the rest of the pictures that I took
24 were, unfortunately, burned.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Just one more question with respect to this picture and then we
3 can move on. Is it your testimony that this type of vehicle, even though
4 you're not a military man, is the same type of vehicle as the other
5 picture that you just showed us that you took in 1997? Is that your
7 A. They are not the same. The picture showing on the screen is blue,
8 and I think it belongs to the police.
9 Q. All right.
10 MR. IVETIC: Well, I'll just leave it at that and move on, Your
12 Q. If I can direct your attention now. In your statement of 1999,
13 you describe how on the 20th of March, 1999, at 12.20 p.m., the first
14 attacks began on the villages of Pecane, Studencane, and Doberdolan.
15 Where were you located at this time, so as to be able to know what was
16 going on in these three different villages at precisely the same time?
17 A. At the time the attack started, I was in Semetisht. And from
18 Semetisht, I set out to go to Peqan, and I saw the Serb forces shelling.
19 Q. Am I correct then that all you saw was what happened -- strike
21 Am I correct, then, that when you say in your statement on the
22 20th of March, 1999, at 12.20 p.m., the first attacks began, is your
23 knowledge of that event limited to Pecane, your first-hand knowledge?
24 A. I did not say in the statement that it was only Peqan. I said
25 also the surrounding village Studencane, Doberdolan, Semetisht, and
2 Q. I'm asking you about where you personally where and what you
3 personally saw. You were in Pecane at the time. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And as far as what you personally saw on March 20th at 12.20 p.m.,
6 that's limited to Pecane. Is that correct?
7 A. I only saw Peqan, but I saw the artillery firing towards those
9 Q. All right. Well, let me ask you about Pecane, since you were in
10 the area at that time. I'm sure that you must have seen or known of the
11 fierce resistance to the Serb forces from the side of the local UCK/KLA
12 during this time-period, specifically in Pecane. Are you aware of that?
13 A. The KLA was at their own point, and it was protecting the civilian
14 Albanian population.
15 Q. Well, actually, sir, we have in evidence the statement of
16 Mr. Ilmet Fondaj, the commander of the KLA in Pecane that states
17 otherwise, that says that the KLA ordered the civilians in Pecane to leave
18 so that they could ambush the Serbs in Pecane and in fact that they did do
19 so. Does that refresh your recollection as to the situation in Pecane?
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, I doubt if that's a fair question.
21 Your previous question was given, I think, a "yes" answer. Your question
22 was "fierce resistance" from the KLA, and the answer was, yes, basically.
23 MR. IVETIC: I agree.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: You can hardly criticise the witness now for
25 answering that question the way he did.
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I'm reading the same response, I had
2 it translated to me that they were in the village protecting the Albanian
3 civilian population, which we have evidence was not in Pecane, so --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: But you can't criticise the witness for making that
5 point in answer to that question.
6 MR. IVETIC: I agree. Perhaps, it's a poorly phrased question.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: So, please, approach it differently.
8 MR. IVETIC:
9 Q. Are you aware of an individual named Ilmet Fondaj?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Am I correct that Ilmet Fondaj was a member of the KLA and the
12 local KLA person in charge of Pecane village in the Suva Reka municipality
13 in 1999?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Do you have knowledge of the fact that Mr. Fondaj and his
16 KLA contingent utilised a strategy, whereby they ordered their civilians
17 to leave, so as to lay a trap or ambush for Serb forces in ethnic Albanian
18 villages, including Pecane?
19 A. Mr. Fondaj and the others did this because the military police and
20 paramilitary Serb forces were shelling the village; and so that no
21 civilians were hurt, they told the population to withdrew.
22 Q. Okay. And isn't it a fact, sir, that from March 20th, 1999, the
23 KLA forces in Pecane and the surrounding area fought with the Serb forces
24 for a total of eight days in a row before finally withdrawing to Belanica
25 and the mountain behind Belanica?
1 A. That is true, but the truth is a little bit different because the
2 police, the army, and the paramilitaries started to shell these villages.
3 They were the first. This is the truth, and the KLA was protecting the
5 Q. The KLA was in the villages before the Serbs showed up, weren't
7 A. Of course.
8 Q. Now, am I correct that for this eight-day period, when the KLA was
9 battling the Serb forces, am I correct that you were among the various
10 villages in the municipality of Suva Reka and not in Suva Reka town
12 A. From the 20th of March, nobody could enter Suhareke from quieter
13 areas such as Nishor, Bellanice, Pagarusha, et cetera. It was not
14 possible for us to enter Suhareke. We only observed from close by.
15 Q. So am I correct then that you were not in Suva Reka on the 25th of
16 March, 1999, which according to your statement from 1999 at page 3,
17 paragraph 2, is when you claim to have seen certain events transpire in
18 Suva Reka town?
19 A. We saw the civilian population leaving the town of Suhareke,
20 because at that time, those moments, the population was in -- in Suhareke
21 was being massacred, the houses were being set on fire, and I saw the
22 civilian population leaving the town barefoot. It was in the early hours
23 of the morning.
24 Q. How far away from Suva Reka town were you at that time?
25 A. About 2 kilometres.
1 Q. Did you have any binoculars with you?
2 A. I didn't have any binoculars, but my mind was working, my body was
3 working. I was observing everything from far, from the place I was.
4 Q. And from 2 kilometres away, you didn't see anyone being massacred,
5 did you?
6 A. I did not see that, but as I said in my statement, I talked to the
7 citizens that were living -- leaving Suhareke without even the bare
8 minimal elements that are necessary for survival. This is what they told
9 me, and this is the truth.
10 Q. So am I correct, then, that your entire description of what
11 happened in Suhareke town after March 20th, 1999, that is all based upon
12 what other people told you rather than anything you saw with your own
14 A. I saw the fires, the burning, of Suhareke. This is a fact. And I
15 believed the people who were coming in my direction and I talked to them
16 and they spoke to me about their family members who had been killed. And,
17 for example, Professor Sejdi Bytyqi, a professor of history, he was among
18 the ones that were executed but he survived the massacre. All his friends
19 were killed.
20 Q. We have that in your statement, and now I'm satisfied with the
21 fact that you did not eye-witness any of that. I'd like to move on now.
22 Before we do, back to Pecane.
23 You, in your statement, identify that - and this is the 1999
24 statement - relative to Pecane, you said as to the forces that
25 entered: "These were not policemen wearing standard uniforms, but their
1 uniforms seemed to be with different colours, more black than anything
2 else. They were masked and they had painted faces."
3 Did you, in fact, see these forces enter Pecane with your own
5 A. I don't think I said that. I know this, that the police forces
6 were operating. The army forces and the paramilitary forces were also
7 operating, and I saw them; this is the reality.
8 Q. Well, I'm reading your statement, the top of page 3 in the English
9 version, the 1999 statement, and the quotation I read is from there. Are
10 you telling us now that you did not see policemen -- strike that.
11 Are you telling me that you did not see individuals wearing
12 uniforms of different colours, more black than anything else, that were
13 masked and that had painted faces in Pecane; and are you not attributing
14 those as being policemen?
15 A. They entered Peqan. What I think I said was that in Bellanice
16 they had painted faces and bandannas. I don't think I said that about
17 Peqan. I said that the forces entered Peqan.
18 Q. Well, sir, if I can go back to page 2. It says:
19 "I saw eight tanks in the village of Peqan alone; seven armoured
20 vehicles and two Pragas, heavy gun mounted on top of an armoured vehicle.
21 These were not policemen wearing standard uniforms, but their uniforms
22 seemed to be with different colours, more black than anything else. They
23 were masked and had painted faces. The people who directed these attacks
24 included the following men ..."
25 Now, sir, again I ask you: Is this an accurate description of the
1 people you saw in Peqan?
2 A. I don't think I mentioned that regarding Pecane. I can tell you
3 about Bellanice. I don't know about this figure; seven, or what you said.
4 Q. Well, let's -- let me ask you a little more about Peqan. You
5 identify an individual as Zika. Now, with respect to Zika, had you seen
6 him wearing this type of uniform before; the type of uniform that's
7 described here in your sworn statement from 1999?
8 A. Zika was a regular policeman. He was part of the Serbian police
9 in Suhareke; and as far as I remember, I did not say this about Pecane. I
10 said that this happened in Bellanice. And he took my car keys and they
11 beat -- he beat me together with his friends. He was not wearing a mask.
12 Q. Oh, so now he's the one that beat you; it's no longer the two
13 soldiers and the paramilitaries in the black uniforms, or the two
14 policemen. It's Zika that actually beat you in your car?
15 A. Zika beat me the third time, because I said earlier that within
16 half an hour I was beaten three times by the Serbian police. And at this
17 moment, when Zika took my car keys, there were four policemen. He took my
18 car and they used the car -- they roamed in the car all the time -- during
19 all the time they stayed in Kosova. And I have a photograph of that car.
20 Q. All right. Sir, I'd like to ask you about Zika and these
21 policemen that you have identified. Please describe their uniforms for
23 A. Blue uniforms of the police.
24 Q. Now, sir, I live in America, where the police in every city have a
25 different colour uniform. I need for you to describe for me what it means
1 when you say "blue uniforms of the police." Describe how those
2 uniforms look, apart from the colour.
3 A. Blue camouflage.
4 Q. Did you see any markings on these blue camouflage uniforms of
5 these policemen that you said were there and either beat you or watched
6 Zika beat you?
7 A. They beat us mercilessly, and it was not possible for us to get
8 any figures or -- and for me to be able to tell you today that this was
9 the one or the other one did that. I only know that Zika was there. He
10 had a blue camouflage uniform, and this is very true.
11 Q. I presume, sir, if they were beating you, they were rather close
12 to you. Did you see anything on their uniforms from which you could
13 conclude that they were police?
14 A. They were policemen; they were. It is easy to tell a policeman
15 from a soldier, a soldier from a paramilitary, and so on and so forth.
16 And I think that's that. He was a Serb policeman wearing a blue
17 camouflage uniform. He was not wearing a mask; unmasked, he was.
18 Q. What, if anything, did these policemen you've identified on their
19 uniforms have on their chest?
20 A. They had the protection; what you call -- how do you call them?
21 You call them flak jackets, I suppose. They were armed; they had a
22 Kalashnikov automatic rifle, pistols. They had knives and pliers.
23 Q. And is this description applying to Zika and the two other
24 individuals who pulled you out of your car and beat you?
25 A. Yes. It applies to the rest as well, yes.
1 Q. What colour was this flak jacket or vest?
2 A. The same as the other one.
3 Q. Now, did these uniforms that these individuals were wearing, did
4 they have anything on their shoulders or their sleeves; and if so, please
5 tell me?
6 A. The majority, yes, they did.
7 Q. And what was that, sir?
8 A. In Cyrillic script, in Serbian language, if I'm not mistaken,
9 there was something that, if I'm not wrong, was criminal, criminal police
10 or something of the sort.
11 Q. Okay. Did they have any other emblems? And I did not ask you to
12 look at any pictures, so I don't know what you're looking at that, sir.
13 But I would ask you, based upon your recollection, did they have any other
14 emblems anywhere on their uniforms?
15 A. They had the Serbian emblem, the emblem of the police, the army,
16 and everything else.
17 Q. They had all these emblems on their uniform?
18 A. The paramilitaries didn't.
19 Q. I'm asking you specifically about the individuals that you have
20 identified as police in these blue camouflage uniforms. What type of
21 emblems did you see on those uniforms?
22 A. The flag of Serbia or Yugoslavia or whatever it was. That was the
23 one. That's how we were able to tell them.
24 Q. Okay. Now --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Ivetic, I am going to have to interrupt
1 you as long as this is a convenient point.
2 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Because we have one matter, as you know --
4 MR. IVETIC: Yes, we do.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: -- to deal with separately from this.
6 Mr. Zogaj, we have to bring your evidence to a close for the day
7 at this stage because another case will be taking place this afternoon
8 which occupies one of our Judges. So you will have to return on Monday to
9 continue your evidence. I think that is in the morning on Monday. Is
10 that correct? Monday morning at 9.00. So you need to be back in this
11 building in good time to resume giving evidence at 9.00 on Monday morning.
12 Meanwhile, it's vital that you have no discussion with anyone at
13 all about your evidence, that is either the evidence you've given or the
14 evidence you may yet give in the case. You can talk about whatever you
15 like to whomever you like, but you must not discuss with anyone any part
16 of the evidence. Now, could you please leave the court with the usher,
17 and we'll see you again at 9.00 on Monday morning.
18 The court will now go into private session to deal with the
19 application in relation to the witness.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 5889-5892 redacted. Private session.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of
4 November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.