Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5894

1 Monday, 6 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, good morning, everyone. One administrative

6 matter before we hear further from the witness. The list of forthcoming

7 witnesses identifies a witness Jon Sterenberg as being called fairly soon.

8 I think that there's nothing confidential about the identity of that

9 witness, Mr. Stamp -- Mr. Hannis.

10 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour. And we now propose to call him in

11 the last week of this month.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that may make a difference. There is a joint

13 Defence motion to preclude his testimony, and that identifies, of course,

14 the fact that he's not officially identified on the 65 ter list of

15 witnesses, but it also makes the point that his statement is not available

16 in the Serb language. And of course that is a basic obligation in a

17 situation like this.

18 This is a case where the Prosecution ought to make a formal

19 written application to amend the 65 ter list, explain the situation in

20 full, and do it instantly so the Defence have time in the usual way to

21 respond to it. We don't want to be rushed into making decisions on

22 applications of this nature.

23 MR. HANNIS: We'll do that, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 Can we now have the witness, please.

Page 5895

1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, may I address one other scheduling

2 matter while the witness is coming in?


4 MR. HANNIS: It concerns the order we have for Mr. Zogaj to finish

5 morning to be followed by Mr. Zyrapi. The Defence has pending some

6 request about delaying his cross, and I think we agreed that we would see

7 how went. Mr. Tanic is scheduled to be the next witness and Mr. Haxhiu,

8 Baton Haxhiu, is scheduled on Wednesday. Mr. Haxhiu is in the position

9 that we had with Mr. Surroi. We had a very tight schedule for him and we

10 would like to have him on and of Wednesday if possible, so if we could go

11 out of order. I've addressed that with Defence counsel this morning, but

12 whatever point we are on Tuesday, if Wednesday we could interrupt if we

13 haven't finished cross-examination of Mr. Zyrapi or if we have just

14 started direct of Mr. Tanic, and do Mr. Haxhiu on Wednesday.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I've been alerted to a Defence application in

16 relation to Tanic.

17 MR. HANNIS: That's not going to --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not going to affect the issue, Mr. Hannis?

19 MR. HANNIS: No. I don't think so, Your Honour. I've been handed

20 that this morning, and that only has to do with whether he's live or

21 live/92 ter.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: The Chamber are certainly happy to accommodate

23 these arrangements that parties can agree informally.

24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 5896

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Zogaj.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Your evidence will now continue. Please bear in

4 mind that the solemn declaration that you took at the very beginning of

5 your evidence in this case to tell the truth continues to apply to that

6 evidence today and until it finishes.

7 Mr. Ivetic.

8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Zogaj. I'd like to finish up just a handful of

13 areas from my questioning last week. Now, first of all, I meant to ask

14 you on Friday about Ibrahim Zogaj and his three sons. Are you aware of

15 the fact that sometime in March or April 1998, Mr. Ibrahim Zogaj wrote a

16 letter to the OSCE and other international agencies, urging them to

17 investigate the KLA for the killing of his Serb neighbour Djordje Belic?

18 A. I'm sorry, but in our village there has not been a Serb ever, and

19 I don't know this person that you're mentioning.

20 Q. Okay. Well, as a journalist in 1998 in the region of Malisevo and

21 Suva Reka, did you have occasion to know and/or report the kidnapping of

22 Mr. Ibrahim Zogaj and his three sons by the KLA and the subsequent

23 discovery of their bodies on 6 April 1998 on the Orahovac-Malisevo road?

24 A. I never reported on this, and I was not aware about this case. He

25 is not from our village.

Page 5897

1 Q. Okay. As part of your journalistic duties in 1998 and 1999, did

2 you report about the actions undertaken by the Kosovo Liberation Army

3 involving the killing and torture of ethnic Albanians even once in any

4 other instance?

5 A. Never, because I never heard of any.

6 Q. Okay. Now, were you an active member of the KLA and did you

7 participate in actions undertaken by the KLA?

8 A. I was never a member, but I followed the situation in the villages

9 very closely, the situation regarding the shelling of the Serbian

10 forces -- by the Serbian forces.

11 Q. Okay. Now, moving on to another topic. In your direct

12 examination, you talked about a man named Milorad Miskovic, whom you then

13 say also has the last name Nisevic. Did you have occasion to see this

14 individual in uniform at any time, either during March or April of 1999 or

15 any time prior?

16 A. Earlier.

17 Q. Okay. When, earlier; and what type of uniform?

18 A. Before the war started, this person had a driving school, and at

19 the same time he also wore a police uniform in Suhareke.

20 Q. Now, sir, am I correct that this Milorad Miskovic was, in fact, a

21 state security operative, a member of the RDB?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, at page 3804 of the transcript from your direct examination,

24 lines 2 through 7, you identify Mr. Miskovic/Nisevic, as being well-known,

25 and then you also state that he was the head of the police department in

Page 5898

1 Suva Reka.

2 Now, sir, you know that this testimony by you is false, don't

3 you? Mr. Miskovic has never been the head of the police department in

4 Suva Reka, has he?

5 A. That is not true. I also said earlier that the functions changed

6 overnight, the functions of the Serbs in Kosova and Serbia, and there have

7 been such cases. Miskovic ordered the killing of civilians in Suhareke,

8 and, as I said earlier, Mr. Sejdi Bytyqi, the history professor escaped

9 the execution. He survived. He was from Semetisht. He was known as

10 Miskovic, Misevic, Misko, et cetera.

11 Q. Okay. Now, you describe in your statement that you saw on April

12 1st, 1999, the burning of houses in the Hoxhaj neighbourhood, from the

13 third floor of your house. How far were these burning houses from your

14 house?

15 A. Approximately 300 to 400 metres.

16 Q. Okay. You could not see the markings or insignia on the uniformed

17 persons that you claim started these fires, could you?

18 A. They had some kind of writing on, some marking, such

19 as "police," "policija."

20 Q. But at that distance, could you see the exact emblems that they

21 had on their uniforms?

22 A. I saw that when I was beaten up and I saw that when we moved from

23 one place to another, when we were forced out from the village.

24 Q. Sir, I asked you a very specific question relating to the houses

25 that were burning in the Hoxhaj neighbourhood that you watched from the

Page 5899

1 third floor of your house, which you said was a distance of 300 to 400

2 metres away. Could you, in fact, see the precise markings or insignia on

3 the uniforms of the individuals that you claim undertook to burn those

4 houses?

5 A. It was the Serbs who burned those houses, because they were the

6 ones who burned, who were killing, who were looting and everything.

7 Q. All right. I will take that as a "no" and then I will move on.

8 Now, if --

9 A. There is no "no" here; it's a "yes."

10 Q. Well, did you see the markings and insignia on their uniforms or

11 not? I've asked you twice; this is the third time.

12 A. I said that I saw the marking "policija" when I was beaten and on

13 the journey when we were expelled. The whole world knows this, not only

14 me.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zogaj, I understand what you're saying in

16 relation to one aspect of your evidence, but you're not being asked about

17 that. You're being asked whether, when you saw from a distance of 3 to

18 400 metres away police burning houses, you could see any of the insignia

19 on their uniforms. Now, can you just concentrate on that, because

20 otherwise you're simply causing confusion.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand what you're asking, but

22 from that distance, it is impossible to see the marking. But during the

23 time that we were expelled we realised that it was the police, the Serb

24 police.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: We understand that, but all you were being asked is

Page 5900

1 a specific point and you've now dealt with it. Thank you. But it's taken

2 a long while to deal with it, and we don't have the luxury of a long time,

3 as you know, in these cases. We're trying to do justice to as many

4 people's complaints as possible, to the situation of as many alleged

5 victims as possible, and it will not help us if you will not address the

6 particular questions that are asked of you.

7 Mr. Ivetic.

8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Now, if you turn briefly to another item of your testimony.

10 Specifically, in your second statement on the first page, you describe how

11 your village of Belanica had 80.000 people in it on April 1st of 1999.

12 And then during your direct examination, at page 3790, at lines 8 through

13 12, you added to that figure that if the two surrounding villages of

14 Landovice and Guncevac is added, then the figure of persons in that area

15 is well over 100.000.

16 Now, first of all, in terms of geographic size, how large are

17 Landovica and these two other villages of Guncat and Ladrovice, as

18 compared to either Malisevo municipality and Suva Reka municipality?

19 A. I did not say Landovice. I mentioned Lladroviq, which is clear,

20 and the other one is Guncat, not Guncevac. And on the 1st of April in

21 Bellanice there were about 80.000 people expelled from other villages.

22 And it is true that including other people from other villages the total

23 would be about 100.000, because these people could not come and physically

24 stay in Bellanice.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Again, you've not assisted us, because you've been

Page 5901

1 asked a question about what area was occupied by this very large number of

2 people. How did the area occupied compare with the size of the

3 municipality of Malisevo or the municipality of Suva Reka. Now, can you

4 address that question?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bellanice was a little calmer from

6 the 20th of March to the 1st of April, and the flow of people trying to

7 escape the massacres came to Bellanice. And there is a big field, the big

8 field belonged to the village, and there was no room for people to stand.

9 The houses were full. I had about 200 people in my house; 200 people from

10 other villages.


12 Q. Well, I think I'll move on to the next question, hopefully the

13 point I want to make will become clear even without the witness's answer

14 to my previous question?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, it's a very difficult question to be

16 precise about, and that at least was a stab at giving an answer to your

17 question to try and identify the intensity of the occupation of these

18 villages by that large number of people.

19 MR. IVETIC: And my next question should, I believe, illustrate a

20 very telling point about that description, Your Honours, at least my next

21 two questions I should say.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Zogaj, we've heard testimony here from a Halit Berisha, a

23 former head of the municipality of Suva Reka, who stated that the entire

24 municipality of Suva Reka had only 60.000 inhabitants, including Serbs and

25 Roma. Now, are you telling us that your village of Bellanice and the two

Page 5902

1 neighbouring villages had more persons in it on April 1st, 1999, than

2 normally resided in the entire municipality of Suva Reka?

3 A. I have to emphasise here that in Bellanice there were people not

4 only from the Suhareke municipality but also from Rahovec and Gllogoc and

5 Shtime, villages of Carraleve, Luzhnice and others. And wouldn't you

6 think that would add up to 80.000 people?

7 Q. Well, sir, in reading your various the only other group of people

8 apart from Malisevo and Suvo Reka that you have identified are between

9 100 and 1.000 people from outside those two municipalities. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. So the remainder of the over 100.000 would have to be made up from

13 people within Suva Reka municipality or Malisevo municipality. Isn't that

14 correct?

15 A. As I said, they came from those municipalities where they were at

16 risk, and I said these municipalities were Rahovec, Drenoc, Shtime.

17 Q. Now, according to the OSCE, Malisevo municipality, which wasn't a

18 municipality at that point but became one after the war, also had around

19 60.000 people encompassing some of the people from Suva Reka municipality.

20 Now, the question I have for you is: Based upon your testimony,

21 your claim would seem to indicate that the entire two municipalities of

22 Suva Reka and Malisevo were all in Belanica, which geographically was much

23 smaller, and the two neighbouring villages that you have identified. And

24 I want to ask you whether in fact your estimation is a proper estimation

25 or are you exaggerated or embellishing what you saw for journalistic

Page 5903

1 effect?

2 A. On the basis of my notes, Malisheve was a municipality until 1990.

3 In 1990, the Serb politics changed it. It was not a municipality anymore.

4 However, this municipality had about 40 to 41 villages. At that time they

5 -- the municipality had 40.000 inhabitants.

6 Q. So my point is that even if the entire population of Suva Reka and

7 the entire population of Malisevo, and even if we take your estimation of

8 people from outside those two municipalities at its highest of 1.000

9 persons, we still don't come -- that's the only way we come even close to

10 your estimation of well over 100.000. Isn't that accurate? So I'm asking

11 you: Was this figure you quoted of people in Belanica an accurate

12 estimation or were you, as a journalist, seeking to have dramatic effect?

13 A. No, that's exact. About 80.000 people were in Bellanice alone.

14 Q. Okay. Let's move on, then. I have just a handful, three more,

15 points, I believe, to make with you. Now, page 7 of your second

16 statement, you say, when talking of the convoy at Belanica: "Without any

17 direction from the Serbs, we turned towards Suva Reka."

18 Now, I'm having a hard time reconciling this with your first

19 statement from 1999, also on page 7, where you claim that the Serb police

20 directed you in the direction of Suva Reka, while directing others in a

21 second direction. Now, these statements can't both be true, can they?

22 A. The Serb police entered Bellanice. They were firing their guns,

23 burning the houses, insulting us as Albanians, looting, insulting NATO and

24 America, Bill Clinton, and others. And they expelled us forcibly in two

25 directions.

Page 5904

1 When we divided at the entrance of the villages -- of the village

2 - this is a clarification for you - this happened four or five hours

3 later, the forces came into Bellanice. These were other forces in

4 addition to the first ones that came. So we were stopped there until the

5 forces came in with heavy gunnery and weapons. They also had bulldozers

6 and excavators. So when the Serb forces entered the village, we left and

7 went in the direction of Suhareke. We were the first -- in the first car

8 that set out to Suhareke.

9 And you never asked me the question: Who was killed in

10 Bellanice? How were they killed? How was the population beaten up?

11 You're avoiding these questions.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zogaj, I'm getting very impatient about this.

13 It's not your job to tell anyone in this court what questions to ask you.

14 Your job here, as a witness, is to answer the questions that are asked of

15 you. Now, please bear that in mind and we'll make some progress. You are

16 not going to deter the progress of the court. If you insist on doing this

17 any more, I'll terminate your evidence.

18 Don't just nod your head at me. I expect an undertaking from you

19 to answer the questions that you're being asked.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will answer the questions.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 Mr. Ivetic.

23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

24 Q. While talking about the forces in Belanica, and also previously

25 when you talked about the forces in Pecane, in your written statement of

Page 5905

1 1999, you claim that the two police that grabbed you out of the car for

2 the first time at Belanica were wearing black uniforms; the other day you

3 changed that to blue uniforms. Now, when talking about the attack on

4 Pecane in your statement, you described that the police were not wearing

5 standard uniforms but, rather, uniforms that were black than anything

6 else. Again, I think you tried to change that as well.

7 Now, I want you to explain to me: How it is that, in 1999, you

8 were adamant that these black uniforms were, in fact, the ones worn by the

9 police, and now you testify that, in fact, they were camouflage blue? How

10 do you explain that change in your perception?

11 A. I don't think I said that. However, the Serb police always wore

12 blue uniforms and blue camouflage uniforms. One belonged to the regular

13 police and the other to the special police.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, let's have the particular passage from

15 the statement.

16 MR. IVETIC: Yes. It's the 1999 statement, page 3, and it's in

17 that first carry-over paragraph, in the middle of the paragraph, and I

18 quote: "These were not policemen wearing standard uniforms but their

19 uniforms seemed to be with different colours, more black than anything

20 else. They were masked and had painted faces."

21 Q. Those are your words, Mr. Zogaj, with your signature attached to

22 them, certifying that this was read back to you in the Albanian language

23 and that you understood and that it was correct. Why the change in your

24 perception?

25 A. I don't think I said that. What I think I said was the police,

Page 5906

1 and I might have mentioned the black uniforms regarding the

2 paramilitaries, but not the police.

3 Q. Okay. Well --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I still can't find this, Mr. Ivetic.

5 MR. IVETIC: It's the April 25th and 26th, 1999, statement.


7 MR. IVETIC: Page 3 of the English, the top of the page --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, on top of page 3.

9 MR. IVETIC: The top of page 3.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, yeah.

11 MR. IVETIC: The carry-over paragraph in the middle, it

12 starts: "These were not policemen wearing standard uniforms ..."

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you.


15 Q. Now, Mr. Zogaj, I think I have just one more question for you.

16 Did you at any point in time accompany KLA fighters when they were engaged

17 upon attacks or actions directed against either civilians, be they Serb or

18 Albanian, or Serb forces at any time during your coverage of KLA

19 activities?

20 A. I followed what happened from close up in the presence of the KLA,

21 mostly during the shelling of the Serb forces and the counter-attacks by

22 the KLA.

23 Q. I thank you for your testimony, Mr. Zogaj?

24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I am done. Thank you.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 5907

1 Mr. Bakrac.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zogaj, my name is Mihajlo Bakrac,

5 attorney-at-law, counsel for Mr. General Lazarevic, and I will have some

6 questions for you.

7 First of all, I wish to clarify something. In your first

8 statement from April 1999, you said that on the 20th of March you were in

9 Suva Reka; and that it was a Saturday, as well as that that day the OSCE

10 monitors withdrew from the town. It wasn't easy for journalists to enter

11 the town because after the OSCE withdrew, the population went away as

12 well. Does this mean that the population of Suva Reka left alongside the

13 OSCE monitors; and if so, in which direction?

14 MR. STAMP: Can we just have an exact quotation from a statement

15 where he's supposed to have said the population went away. I have it in

16 the English translation as: "The town was empty."

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The translation in B/C/S is -- comes

18 from: [In English] "The town -- because the town was empty of people due

19 to the withdrawal of observers."

20 [Interpretation] Page 2, second paragraph of the first statement.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: The witness clarified that earlier by saying that

22 people were indoors; it was the streets that were empty.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 Q. Mr. Zogaj, did part of the population, of the Albanian population,

25 leave Suva Reka alongside the OSCE monitors?

Page 5908

1 A. That day only the OSCE observers left; the population remained at

2 home.

3 Q. In the trial before this one, the Milosevic trial, at page 3664 of

4 the transcript, you said that the OSCE mission departure happened on

5 20th of March, 1999, when they were signaled to leave. I'm interested to

6 hear what you meant by that. Who did they receive that signal from?

7 A. They were signaled to leave from the special envoy of the OSCE in

8 Kosova.

9 Q. How do you know that?

10 A. We knew that the OSCE observers had to leave that day.

11 Q. Actually, you were liaison between the OSCE monitors and the KLA;

12 that's how you know about such things. Is that correct?

13 A. No, I don't know to have said that.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zogaj, this is actually quite an important

15 question, how it would -- how the departure of the OSCE was organised,

16 arranged. And what counsel wants to know is: What's the source of your

17 information that a signal was given for the mission to leave?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One day earlier from the surrounding

19 villages, the OSCE had its seats there in different villages. They left

20 from these villages, and on the next day they left Kosova altogether. We

21 learned this from the media, in the evening of the previous day.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: The facts, I understand; but your statement in the

23 trial of Milosevic was that the mission left Kosovo on March 20th when the

24 signal was given for the mission to leave. Now, where did you learn that

25 a signal was given for the mission to leave?

Page 5909

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through the media.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 Mr. Bakrac.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Therefore, you had no contact with the OSCE mission in Suva Reka

6 or in your village -- well, first of all, was there an OSCE presence in

7 your village?

8 A. There wasn't a constant presence, but they came to observe what

9 was going on in the village.

10 Q. Did you have any contact with them as a journalist when they came

11 to your village in Suva Reka?

12 A. You mean in Bellanice?

13 Q. In Belanica or Suva Reka, it doesn't matter.

14 A. In Bellanice, yes, I had some talks with them. I don't remember

15 when.

16 Q. The conversations you had with them, was that in your capacity as

17 your village's representative or a KLA representative for that area?

18 A. In my capacity of journalist. They asked me about the situation

19 in the village, what was happening with the civilian population.

20 Q. Did they ask about the KLA? Did they want to know about the

21 situation with the KLA from you?

22 A. They never asked me that question, because I was not a member of

23 the KLA.

24 Q. Were you familiar with some frequent attacks by the KLA on the

25 police and the army at the time? Was that one of the topics discussed in

Page 5910

1 your area, around Suva Reka?

2 A. No, I wasn't.

3 Q. Very well, Mr. Zogaj. To move on. My learned friend Mr. Ivetic

4 asked you about the number of people who were in your village on the 1st

5 of April. You said that there was a meadow. I believe you mentioned that

6 previously, but just so as to confirm that, is that meadow in the middle

7 of your village surrounded by the houses there?

8 A. It is a meadow surrounded by houses. It is -- nobody tills it or

9 ploughs anything in it or builds there. It is alongside the clinic, and

10 at the entrance to the village, there was a mosque which now has been

11 ruined completely.

12 Q. Mr. Zogaj, if I understood correctly, the 80.000 people were in

13 that meadow. Is that correct?

14 A. They were in the meadow and in our houses.

15 Q. Your town or your village has about 220 households; is that

16 correct?

17 A. That's correct, at that time. Now it has a larger number.

18 Q. Mr. Zogaj, one doesn't need to be a very good mathematician to

19 come up with a total of about [Realtime transcript read in error "430"]

20 450 people per house to have been accommodated there at that point in

21 time.

22 A. I don't know to have said that they were accommodated. Such

23 number was accommodated in each house, 430 persons.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The figure in the transcript is 430,

25 whereas I think I said 400. But it doesn't seem to be important.

Page 5911

1 Q. Mr. Zogaj, you said that on the 1st of April --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on a second.

3 Mr. Zogaj, the question was that 220 households, 80.000 people,

4 comes to about 400 persons per household, and you answered that. Now, can

5 you tell us again your answer to that, because I heard a different answer

6 from what I see in the transcript.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people were staying in the

8 meadow, in the school, in the clinic, and in the households of the

9 village, including the yards. They were full of people, all these places.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: You said earlier in your evidence that there were

11 200 in your house alone. Is that correct?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Zogaj, when did Serb forces begin shelling Belanica on the 1st

16 of April? Was it at 11.45?

17 A. In the early morning hours, whereas around 11.45 they did enter

18 the village.

19 Q. Therefore, my understanding was incorrect, although in your

20 statement you say: "On Thursday, the 1st of April, at 11.45, I saw Serb

21 forces shelling Belanica from two directions. They also shelled Thmushina

22 and Belanica." Which one is correct, what you are telling us now or what

23 you stated in 1999, when you said that they entered the village at 11.45

24 but that they started shelling as of the early morning hours? Which of

25 the two is correct?

Page 5912

1 A. The shelling had started earlier, not only in Bellanice but also

2 in other villages. But they entered the village around the time I

3 mentioned, that is, 11.45, shelling the village all the time.

4 Q. Therefore, as of early morning, they were shelling, and then they

5 entered the village while the shelling was still going on. And I have the

6 Serb forces in mind. Is this correct, as regards your testimony today?

7 A. The Serb forces were shelling the village.

8 Q. Mr. Zogaj, you are a journalist, an intelligent person. Can you

9 answer the same way. How long did the shelling last? Did it last for two

10 hours or three hours? Can you tell me that?

11 A. Over three hours. During the shelling, two people were killed

12 from Reti village of Rahovec.

13 Q. In Orahovac; is that so?

14 A. In Bellanice. Two people from Reti village, I said.

15 Q. Therefore, in your evidence, page 3791, line 2, you said that they

16 used all types of weaponry. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Mr. Zogaj, during the three hours of shelling by using all types

19 of weaponry and your village was full, it was packed, there were people in

20 houses, yards, meadows, and only two people were killed as the result of

21 the shelling. Is that your testimony today?

22 A. The shelling initially was directed around the village; then in

23 the periphery of the village, two people, two females, a mother and a

24 daughter, were killed.

25 Q. [Microphone not activated]?

Page 5913

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].

3 Q. Yes, Mr. Zogaj, the targets around the village as well as its

4 periphery, that's where the KLA lines were positioned. Isn't that

5 correct? They were there in Belanica on the 1st of April.

6 A. There were no positions of the KLA in Bellanice. Precisely in

7 Bellanice, there were not such positions.

8 Q. Mr. Zogaj, do you know of a person by the name of Gezim Hazrolli?

9 A. I know him only by sight.

10 Q. Mr. Zogaj, do you know that after you, we are going to have a KLA

11 witness here.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this morning the system

13 wasn't up, and I have this in hard copy only. It's an order of the 1st of

14 April, something that we intend to use with the next witness. I wanted to

15 read the first paragraph. It was signed by Bislim Zyrapi.

16 "Establish a defence line - this is the first of April - left of

17 Bllace, Moshe, Thmushina, and Bellanica, and link up with the line of the

18 121st Brigade at positions that had been predetermined. The forces to be

19 engaged are the 123rd, 124th, and the 125th Brigade of the KLA."

20 Q. Are you familiar with this order? Did you know that there was a

21 line position of the KLA linked up with Moshe, Thmushina, and Bllace?

22 A. I know that these brigades of the KLA were positioned in other

23 places, in Bllace, Golush, in order to penetrate Doberdolan and other

24 places, as well as in Lladroviq, Senek, Ladros, Banja, Lladroviq, and

25 other places; but not in Bellanice. There were no positions of the KLA in

Page 5914

1 Bellanice.

2 Q. Paragraph 2: "Form a tactical combat group out of the units that

3 were in movement. Gzim Hazroli is to command the group."

4 Are you telling me that the order is incorrect and what you are

5 stating is?

6 A. The order was correct for leaving the front line, because they

7 could not withstand the large Serb forces and the attack of its artillery.

8 At that moment they withdrew to one, two, three points, as they describe,

9 and they passed through Bellanice to go to calmer places. But in

10 Bellanice, there were no such positions.

11 Q. Mr. Zogaj, my learned friend, Mr. Ivetic, read out a part of your

12 statement when you said that without any direction by the Serbs you went

13 towards Suva Reka. On your first -- in your first statement, page 5,

14 first paragraph, you say: "I told the people to get out of the basement

15 and to take their tractors and cars and to use the highway, because if

16 they stay inside the houses the worst could come to them."

17 You actually told the people to leave Belanica. Isn't that

18 correct?

19 A. At that time people were forced to leave from -- to leave the

20 village. It was at that time that I told the members of my family and the

21 people who were staying with us to leave and go out because we were in

22 danger. And it was there that Agim Bytyqi got killed. He was a mentally

23 retarded person.

24 Q. I don't see the connection between the murder and what I asked

25 you. I assert, Mr. Zogaj, that upon KLA orders you were the one to

Page 5915

1 organise the people and to make them leave Belanica. Is that correct?

2 A. No, that the not correct. It is not at all correct.

3 Q. Mr. Zogaj, the same order by commander dated the 1st of April,

4 commander Bislim Zyrapi in paragraph 3 states: "The population is to

5 withdraw from Belanica and to be put in Guncat. You carried out that part

6 of the order; isn't that correct. And you advised the population to leave

7 Belanica; isn't that correct?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to move away from the

9 microphones.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. That was the KLA commander's order for the population to leave

12 Belanica?

13 A. The KLA might have given orders to the people to leave Belanica to

14 go to calmer places in case the village was shelled. But it was for that

15 impossible large number of population to go to these two other because

16 they were packed with people. And in Bellanice, after the entry of the

17 Serb forces, they started to force the people to leave, that is, the

18 Serbian police, army, and paramilitaries.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you, I have no

20 further questions for the witness.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: The document you've used will become what, in due

22 course?

23 MR. STAMP: May I just -- if I may just intervene here. It's

24 P2457, so I think it could retain the same number.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

Page 5916

1 Mr. O'Sullivan.

2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.


4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, thank you.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a few questions.

7 I will be brief.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zogaj, are you familiar with an event which

10 took place on the 20th of June, 1998, when the KLA attacked the military

11 at Dulje pass? You are familiar with that event because you, together

12 with some other KLA members, were there. Am I correct?

13 A. This did not happen at Duhla pass but in Duhel. The Serb forces

14 took up position there every day, and the KLA, after the Serbian forces

15 withdrew from that place, the KLA had mined the place.

16 Q. The question is: Were you there with some other KLA members when

17 a mine was laid and when several Serb soldiers were killed? Were you

18 there, together with some members of the KLA?

19 A. It was an improvised tactic used by the KLA. After the attack, I

20 and some members of the KLA went to look at the place. The Serbian forces

21 had withdrawn from that place at that time.

22 Q. Therefore, you were there. Can I consider this as a "yes"?

23 A. I was there after the event.

24 Q. Is it correct that the same day, the KLA ordered some health

25 workers in Suva Reka to lock up the outpatient clinic and to leave so as

Page 5917

1 not to assist any wounded soldiers?

2 A. From what I heard at that time, after police or soldiers arrived,

3 wounded soldiers or police arrived, the Albanian doctors were not allowed

4 to administer them aid, and the order was given to them, to the Albanians,

5 to leave the place.

6 Q. Am I mistaken, perhaps, if I conclude this from the book you

7 wrote: They closed the outpatient clinic in Suva Reka and left so that

8 they wouldn't have to offer any assistance to the wounded soldiers. Am I

9 correct in assuming this?

10 A. It was the Serbs that told the Albanian doctors to leave.

11 Q. Are you telling me that the Serbs locked up and told the Albanians

12 to leave?

13 A. The Serbs told the Albanians to leave because "it's not your job

14 to help these people." I don't know the reasons why they did that.

15 Q. And they shut down the outpatient clinic; that's what it says in

16 your book.

17 A. For the Albanians, not for themselves.

18 Q. "So as not to assist injured health workers --" no, sorry,

19 "injured soldiers"; that's what is in your book.

20 A. The Albanian doctors who were working there until that time, from

21 the time the injured or the killed were sent there - I'm not sure - they

22 were not allowed to work there any longer. They were not allowed to offer

23 assistance to them, and this was at the order of the Serbs themselves.

24 Q. Therefore, this sentence in your book which says: "In order not

25 to assist the injured, the health workers locked up the outpatient clinic

Page 5918

1 in Suva Reka and went away." Therefore, this is incorrect?

2 A. It was not locked up, the clinic was not locked up, but they did

3 not allow the Albanian doctors to offer assistance to the Serbian police.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, do you have the book there?

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have this page. We

6 can put it on the ELMO, if need be, but I believe the witness already

7 clarified it.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: You think it's clear?

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Well, I think -- I don't think there

10 is any point in me going any further. But, in any case, we can put it on

11 the ELMO. That's page 10.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a matter for you, if you think that

13 clarifies it.

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I'll try to move on, Your Honour.

15 I would kindly ask the usher to put this on the ELMO.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: There's nothing showing on the screens yet.

17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I can't see it either.

18 Your Honour, perhaps I can move on, and maybe we'll deal with this

19 technical issue in the meantime and then we can go back to this page.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] There it is. I am being told that

22 it is on the video channel; not on the ELMO but on the AV channel.

23 Q. Mr. Zogaj, can you read for us the fourth paragraph, which is

24 highlighted in yellow.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zogaj, just read out, please, aloud and slowly

Page 5919

1 the passage which is highlighted. Don't --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says this:

3 "The KLA soldiers had placed a surprise mine, a special mine, on

4 the 20th of June at the place where the Serb forces were, and they

5 activated it with some kind of remote."

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness read very slowly, please, for

7 the benefit of the interpreters.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zogaj, please read slowly, because there isn't

9 an English translation of this available. Just go back to where you

10 completed the sentence, saying it was a surprise for soldiers and that

11 they the exploded it with some sort of remote, and then read after that,

12 please, but read slowly.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

14 "The KLA soldiers had placed a surprise mine or booby-trap on the

15 20th of June at the place where the Serb forces were positioned, and they

16 had activated it with some kind of remote which was a few metres away.

17 This booby-trap in Duhel was placed by the soldiers Destan Zekolli and

18 Suka Naser. And the Serb forces suffered. The Serb police managed to get

19 the bodies of the killed, but it was not sure what their number was. But

20 angry as they were at the clinic in Suhareke, they looked up this clinic

21 and they did not allow the Albanian doctors to participate at that moment

22 and had told them to leave their place of work."

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Visnjic, that sounds very much like it

24 was a Serb instruction, as the witness said.

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour. I

Page 5920

1 must have had an incorrect translation of it.

2 Q. Mr. Zogaj, on to the other questions I have. Am I correct in

3 asserting that the supply of KLA soldiers in terms of weapons was done

4 from Albania and through people working abroad who had tried to help in

5 various ways?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Am I correct in saying that the weapons were brought on horseback,

8 and that sufficient amounts of weaponry were secured that way; that

9 hundreds and thousands of young people went to Albania and back in such a

10 way equipping the KLA with even more modern pieces of weaponry?

11 A. Yes. That was the way they got their supplies, I mean, the KLA

12 members.

13 Q. Mr. Zogaj, who is Xhendet Lezi? Was he one of the KLA commanders?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What was his position within the KLA?

16 A. He was a commander in Bllace, KLA commander in Bllace.

17 Q. Was there a KLA brigade in Bljac?

18 A. In the beginning, there was a KLA unit called Lumi, and later

19 brigades were formed.

20 Q. Tell me, am I correct in saying that Xhendet Lezi provided to you,

21 or told you that there was cooperation between NATO and the KLA?

22 A. What I said in the book is true and there was cooperation.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

25 questions for the witness.

Page 5921

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll give your exhibit an IC number, Mr. Visnjic,

3 and it will be scanned into the system.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC104, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Mr. Stamp.

7 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Re-examination by Mr. Stamp:

9 Q. You were asked a lot of questions about the KLA and their

10 presence. Can I ask you this: You said, in response to one question,

11 that the KLA were not precisely in Belanica. Can I ask you: How far from

12 Belanica proper, that's the village proper, were the lines of the KLA on

13 or about the 1st of April?

14 A. Approximately from Semetisht village or the place called Golush,

15 it's about five or six kilometres. From Bllace, it's about five

16 kilometres. It's closer to Banje, four kilometres, and so on the

17 surrounding villages, surrounding villages with Bellanice, I mean.

18 Q. At about midday or in the early afternoon of the 1st of April,

19 1999, when the people were forced to leave Belanica, were there any KLA in

20 Belanica?

21 A. There were no KLA members.

22 Q. You estimated the people, who were gathered in the field at

23 Belanica and who were in people's houses and various other buildings in

24 Belanica, at about 11.45 on the 1st of April to be in the vicinity of

25 80.000 to 100.000. How did you manage to make that calculation, to come

Page 5922

1 to that approximation?

2 A. From the time the war broke out in Kosova, people came from Drenoc

3 and Bellanice, then from Rahovec. But after the 25th of March, so on the

4 24th, NATO bombing started and a number -- a large number of people came

5 to our village from Suhareke, from Rahovec. And on the 1st of April, this

6 number was about 80.000 people in Bellanice only.

7 Q. Thank you. What I'm asking is whether or not you as a journalist

8 or other persons who were there used any system or any methodology to make

9 an assessment, to estimate the amount of people?

10 A. In cooperation with the civil staff that was created in the

11 village, in the course of these people coming to the village, and these

12 people were sheltered while they came, and this civilian staff helped

13 these people; assigned them to houses and sheltered them wherever they

14 could. And on this basis, we concluded that the population in our village

15 at the time was about 80.000 people, because this was a very large meadow,

16 the one I talked about. I can bring a photograph of this meadow for you

17 to see how large it is.

18 Q. I see. Thank you. Did the people who were forced out of Belanica

19 on the 1st of April, 1999, go to Guncat?

20 A. Before the 1st of April, Albanian people went to Guncat, but the

21 village, the Guncat village was overcrowded. People were staying in the

22 streets. So those who went there with -- in their tractors, they could

23 not go to Guncat; that's why they stopped at Bellanice.

24 Q. So I take it, therefore, that the people who were driven from

25 Belanica on the 1st of April did not go to Guncat that day?

Page 5923

1 A. No, they did not go to Guncat. Belanica is in the centre; it's

2 between Guncat and Lladroviq. And from Pagarusha, you have to go through

3 Bellanice to go to Lladroviq and Guncat. It was impossible for all that

4 number of people to go to Guncat. And that's why the population stopped

5 at Bellanice, although the conditions were horrible. The village was

6 overcrowded. There was no food. People did not have a place to sleep.

7 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Zogaj.

8 MR. STAMP: I have nothing further in re-examination, Your

9 Honours.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zogaj, that completes your evidence. Thank you

13 again for coming to the Tribunal to give it and for returning when your

14 evidence was interrupted. That brings your presence here to an end.

15 You're now free to leave. Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

19 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour, the Prosecution's next witness is

20 Bislim Zyrapi. I'll just set up and then I'll get back to what his

21 evidence is relevant to in a second.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: He is a viva voce witness. Is that correct?

23 MR. MARCUSSEN: That's correct, Your Honour. Mr. Zyrapi's

24 evidence is to a large extent primarily relevant to Count 4 of the

25 indictment to establish the elements necessary for the Prosecution to

Page 5924

1 prove that there was an internal armed conflict in Kosovo at the time of

2 the commission of the crimes alleged in the indictment. I would also

3 refer to paragraphs 78, 92 to 94 of the indictment, and paragraphs 24 to

4 28 of the pre-trial brief. The witness will also generally describe the

5 position of areas held by the KLA during various times from 1998 and to

6 the end of the indictment period.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I think, on reflection, it would probably be better

10 to break now and then to start with the witness after the break. So we

11 would resume at quarter to 11.00.

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Very well. Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: So let's not bring him in, and we'll be back at

14 quarter to 11.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

18 MR. MARCUSSEN: While the witness is being brought in, I'd just

19 like to raise one matter.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Bring him in, please.

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: As far as I can see, we've only received

22 notification from one counsel as to what element -- what documents might

23 be used in cross-examination with this witness, and that notification is

24 only indicating that a number of documents will be used that has

25 previously been provided by the Office of the Prosecutor.

Page 5925

1 [The witness entered court]

2 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think the rule is that we have to know what

3 documents are going to be used, and we would request notification. I know

4 there are some documents where there is an outstanding issue, but if any

5 other documents that weren't reasonably disclosed are going to be used, I

6 think we need to get notice of those.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Like any other issues relating to this witness, any

8 comment is noted, but we can decide nothing until we see the state of play

9 at the end of the examination-in-chief.

10 Good morning, Mr. Zyrapi.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

13 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which is now being given to

14 you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

18 Mr. Cepic.

19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me to

20 address you. Last Sunday, as soon as I received the 68 rule documents

21 pertaining to this witness, I demanded to be given a translation of those

22 documents, and I said to the Prosecutor - I mean I indicated orally to the

23 Prosecutor - that we might be using the same documents. But we cannot

24 receive the translation sooner than ten days from this date; this is what

25 we've been informed by the CLSS. And perhaps this is the problem that my

Page 5926

1 learned colleague Mr. Marcussen wanted to acquaint you with.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't know, Mr. Cepic. This is a matter we will

3 deal with later. Let's get on with the evidence, please.

4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zyrapi, the first person to ask you questions

6 will be on behalf of the Prosecution, and that will be Mr. Marcussen.

7 Mr. Marcussen.

8 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you.

9 I should apologise to my colleague. It's right. He did indicate

10 that he was going to use the Rule 68 document that was disclosed.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examination by Mr. Marcussen:

14 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, would you please state your name for the record,

15 mention your full name.

16 A. My name is Bislim Zyrapi.

17 Q. When were you born?

18 A. I was born on the 9th of June, 1962.

19 Q. Where?

20 A. In Studencane village, Suhareke municipality.

21 Q. And where did you go to school?

22 A. I finished the primary school in Studencane village, Suhareke

23 municipality. I finished the high military school in Sarajevo, as well as

24 the high military academy.

25 Q. And when did you finish these two schools?

Page 5927

1 A. I finished the primary school in 1977. From 1977 to 1981, I

2 finished the high military school in Sarajevo. The higher military

3 academy, I started in 1987 and finished in 1989.

4 Q. Did you become a member of the JNA?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when was that?

7 A. After my graduation from the high military school in 1981.

8 Q. During your service with the JNA, did you have some trouble with

9 the JNA?

10 A. Yes. In 1985/1986.

11 Q. And could you please explain to the Court briefly what that was

12 about.

13 A. At that time, we were working to form the military liberation --

14 the liberation army in Kosova and the tribunal found us guilty and

15 condemned us. There were about 30 officers and non-commissioned officers

16 involved in it. I was sentenced to one year and a half on probation.

17 Q. Did you serve any time --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: Albanian army in Kosova.

19 A. No, I didn't serve any recent term.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on, Mr. Marcussen, we've been given a

21 correction which I don't understand.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The name of the army was the Albanian army in

23 Kosova, not the liberation army.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: So not the liberation army in Kosovo but the

25 Albanian army in Kosovo. Thank you.

Page 5928


2 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, after you had been found guilty, did you continue your

3 service with the JNA?

4 A. Yes, like -- many others like me were condemned.

5 Q. And where did you --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't know that answers your question.


8 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, did you personally continue to serve in the JNA after

9 you had been convicted?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And just to clarify the second half of your previous answer, did

12 others who had been convicted as part of the same process, did they also

13 continue their service with the JNA?

14 A. Yes, yes. Most of them, yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Where did you serve after your conviction, in what

16 unit?

17 A. In the same unit I was before, in Lukavice.

18 Q. And what kind of a unit was that?

19 A. Infantry unit.

20 Q. And what rank did you have?

21 A. I was company commander.

22 Q. After that, did you continue with the -- well, sorry, how long did

23 you continue with that company?

24 A. From 1989 up to the beginning of 1992.

25 Q. And then where did you move?

Page 5929

1 A. In April of 1992, I deserted from the JNA and joined the Bosnian

2 army.

3 Q. And why did you desert?

4 A. I deserted because I didn't like the way the army was transformed

5 when Yugoslavia started to break up.

6 Q. What, in particular, was it that you didn't like?

7 A. To be more specific, the transformation of the popular army into

8 the Yugoslav army, they changed the insignia, and I didn't like its

9 actions when they started the war in Croatia; and then in Bosnia, I didn't

10 like its actions in the course of these fightings.

11 Q. Where did you defect to?

12 A. I defected to the Bosnian army.

13 Q. And did you come to serve in the Bosnian army? Were you accepted

14 in the Bosnian army?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where did you serve?

17 A. From April 1992 to October 1992, I was in Sarajevo.

18 Q. In which unit?

19 A. Up to October I was brigade commander, 14th Brigade commander. It

20 was a Territorial Defence brigade in Bosnia.

21 Q. Were you given a rank in the Bosnian army at that point in time?

22 A. In Sarajevo, we didn't have ranks, but when I was transferred to

23 Central Bosnia, I was stationed in Zenica and then in Novi Travnik. I was

24 brigade commander, Brigade 308. When I left the Bosnian army in 1995, at

25 that time I received the rank of lieutenant colonel, but I didn't practice

Page 5930

1 that rank. In January, I left.

2 Q. When you left, where did you go?

3 A. In January 1995, I left the Bosnian army and went to Holland,

4 where my family was living. I joined my family there.

5 Q. While you were in Holland, did you come to meet any members of the

6 KLA?

7 A. Yes. At the end of 1997, it was sometime in December, when I met

8 Fehmi Lladrovci, who was a member of the Kosovo Liberation Army.

9 Q. Did he have any particular function or position in the KLA, or was

10 he just a member?

11 A. At that time he was just a member.

12 Q. And did that result in you joining the KLA eventually?

13 A. After talking with Fehmi, who proposed to me to join the Kosovo

14 Liberation Army, I accepted his offer, and I was asked to join and left

15 for Tirana.

16 Q. When did you go to -- when did you arrive in Tirana?

17 A. They called me on the phone; Lufti Fetahu was present during the

18 conversation. It was in the middle of March 1998 that I left.

19 Q. When you came to Tirana, were you given any tasks for the KLA?

20 A. Yes. When I arrived in Tirana, Xhemajl Fetahu gave me the task of

21 working for training the soldiers, training them to use weapons, soldiers

22 who came from different countries.

23 Q. Were there also soldiers from Kosovo?

24 A. Yes, but mainly Albanians came from various countries of Europe.

25 But they came also from Kosova.

Page 5931

1 Q. And could you explain a little more about the training that was

2 given. Was it only use of weapons, or was there also more tactical

3 training involved?

4 A. Most of the Albanians who came to join the KLA were not trained to

5 fight. They lacked any kind of military experience, so I trained them to

6 use weapons, but also trained them for technical operations.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Tactical operations; correction.


9 Q. Up to what level would you say this tactical operational training

10 went, squad level, platoon level? Could you describe the level of

11 training.

12 A. The level was mostly of a squad level because they came in small

13 groups, and this is how we trained them at the time.

14 Q. Approximately, how long training did these recruits receive, do

15 you think?

16 A. The time was very brief; one week, two weeks. This is how long it

17 lasted.

18 Q. When you initially arrived in Tirana, were you already formally a

19 member of the KLA, or were you only accepted later?

20 A. I was not formally a member at that time; it was later that I was

21 accepted.

22 Q. And when did you become a member of the KLA?

23 A. After the General Staff approved my joining the KLA, my actual

24 acceptance began with the training, but the formal joining was when I

25 entered Kosova.

Page 5932

1 Q. And when did you enter Kosovo?

2 A. I entered Kosova on the 28th of May, 1998.

3 Q. And so once you had been formally accepted in Kosovo, what was

4 your assignment, and who was you assigned to in the KLA?

5 A. After I entered Kosova, I was given the task by the General Staff

6 of continuing training the KLA soldiers in using the weapons for tactical

7 operations, as well as to assess the capacities of the then-commanders of

8 the local and zone staffs.

9 Q. You were accepted -- were you a staff of the General Staff, or

10 where did you hierarchically belong in the KLA at that time?

11 A. At that time I was accepted as an officer for training by the KLA

12 members in the context of the Department of Military Operations as part of

13 the General Staff.

14 Q. Later on in November did you change to a higher position in the

15 KLA?

16 A. Yes. In November of 1998, I was appointed as Chief of General

17 Staff of the KLA.

18 Q. And how long did you serve as Chief of the General Staff?

19 A. From November to April -- November 1998 to April 1999.

20 Q. And then what did you do from April 1999 onwards?

21 A. From April 1999, I was given the task of Deputy Minister of

22 Defence responsible for defence policies.

23 Q. Thank you. So we went through this to cover your background a

24 little bit, so the Court understands who you are. I'd like to go a little

25 bit back in time and go back to the period you were in Tirana. While you

Page 5933

1 were in Tirana, did you hear about the attack on the -- the Jashari

2 compound in Prekaz?

3 A. Yes. I heard of the attack on the Jashari family.

4 Q. What was the upshot of that attack, if you can describe that, in

5 Kosovo?

6 A. The attack on the Jashari family marked the beginning of the

7 conflict between the Serbian forces and the KLA.

8 Q. At this point in time, so in March 1998, where were the members of

9 the General Staff located?

10 A. At that time, in the spring of 1998, the members of the staff were

11 located -- some of them were located in Albania and some others in Kosova.

12 Q. Did the KLA at this point in time have general headquarters for

13 the General Staff -- sorry. Did the KLA have a headquarter for the

14 General Staff?

15 A. At that time, as I said, the staff was divided in two parts. It

16 have a headquarter. Part of the staff was based in Albania and the other

17 part in Kosova, so it did not have one single headquarter.

18 Q. How did the staff communicate between those who were in Albania

19 and those who were in Kosovo?

20 A. At that time, the members of the staff moved from Kosova to

21 Albania and from Albania to Kosova.

22 Q. So is that to say that the communication took place by people

23 moving back and forth?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. When you entered Kosovo in May, the end of May, how would you

Page 5934

1 describe the level of organisation of the KLA?

2 A. At the end of May when I entered Kosova, the level of organisation

3 of the KLA was, as I said, the headquarters was split in two, one in

4 Kosova, one in Albania. In Kosova, it was organised in local staffs and

5 in zones. All of them were active, with the exception of two zones, that

6 of Drenica and Dukagjin. The others were in the form of local staffs, and

7 they were in the process of formation.

8 Q. How many zones were there at that point in time?

9 A. At that time, the zones were divided in seven zones.

10 Q. And you mentioned local staffs. How were those staffs organised?

11 A. The local staffs were organised on the basis of villages and

12 neighbourhoods all along the periphery.

13 Q. And did -- was there a command structure between the villages, so

14 up to a higher level of the zone at that point in time, in those where

15 there were active zones?

16 A. In some places, yes. Some were more active like the Drenica zone

17 and Dukagjin, but the other zones, there were no commands when I entered

18 Kosova. And the process developed more with the passage of time.

19 Q. And in those zones where there was -- where joint command

20 structure had been formed at a zone level, could you describe the type of

21 interaction that was between the General Staff and the zone command.

22 A. It was very difficult at that time for them to communicate,

23 because, as I said, the staff was split in two. The part that was inside

24 Kosova sometimes commanded with the zone commanders directly, communicated

25 with them directly. But there were -- there was no regular communication

Page 5935

1 between the General Staff and the zone or lower levels of commands.

2 Q. And -- so at this period in time, who would -- who would order

3 combat operations?

4 A. Well, it ought to have been approved by the General Staff in

5 practice -- in theory, but in practice this did not happen. It was the

6 zone commanders or the zone staffs that generally issued these orders.

7 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'd like to call up Exhibit P2453.

8 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, this is minutes of a meeting at a local operational

9 staff of Dukagjin. Did you have a chance to look at this document before

10 coming here today?

11 A. I did not see this document before, but I can see clearly from the

12 title here, it's a working meeting of the operational staffs in the

13 Dukagjin area. And this meeting, as I said, is a meeting of the General--

14 local staffs, not General Staffs, local staffs.

15 Q. Do you know the -- do you know the members of the -- or the

16 participants in the meeting?

17 A. Well, as I can see here present were some people that I know. For

18 example, the first one Smajli is Ramush Haradinaj, because his nickname

19 was Iz. Maxhupi is the nickname of Lahi Brahimaj, the major, majori.

20 Q. The major, who is he, if you know?

21 A. Majori, the major, was Selim Veseli. Tetaj is the surname of

22 Rrustem Tetaj.

23 Q. Tolaj; do you know him?

24 A. Tolaj, I can't recall now.

25 Q. Skenderaj?

Page 5936

1 A. Skenderi, I can't remember now who this Skenderi was. Dauti is

2 Daut Haradinaj. Faton, this was Captain Faton, Faton Mehmeti. Now I

3 remember.

4 Q. Bujari?

5 A. Bujari, I think it was Bujar Ymeri, if I'm not mistaken. Alia, I

6 remember now. Hajdari, I can't remember. Dula, Nazmi. Nazmiu is Nazmi

7 Ibrahimi. Mala is a nickname, the nickname of Alush Agushi. Toni, I

8 can't remember -- or, if I'm not mistaken, he's Xhelal Hajda. I don't

9 remember who Agron is. Nazmiu, the doctor, I can't remember. And I can't

10 remember who Muhameti was.

11 Q. And I think we might have passed -- there's a gentleman referred

12 to as Mustafa, do you know who that is?

13 A. I can't remember Mustafa. I can't remember at the moment who he

14 was.

15 Q. No problem. I'd like us to go to the third page of this document,

16 please.

17 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think we need to see the Albanian version on the

18 screen, and if we can go down to the bottom of that page. Yeah, if you

19 can stop here.

20 Q. The last sentence there, would you read out what Mr. Agroni is

21 saying there, please.

22 A. Agron says: "Carry out the project you think and within two days

23 the General Staff of the KLA will respond." This is what it says here.

24 Q. So, to your knowledge, at this point in time, there was -- for

25 this particular area, there were communications back and forth between the

Page 5937

1 General Staff and the local commanders. Would that be a correct

2 assessment?

3 A. Well, from this you can see that there had been contact with them.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me a moment, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there's a fairly significant

7 difference between the translation we have in the transcript of that

8 statement by Agron and what appears in the English translation of the

9 document itself.

10 The English translation of the document itself says: "Draw up a

11 draft of what you think." And what we heard in court just now was:

12 "Carry out the project you think." I think those are two very different

13 things; one is carry forward with an action and one is just sort of

14 provide a draft of what you think.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zyrapi, would you read what it says against the

16 name Agron in the page before you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Agron says: "Do the projects

18 you think, and within two days the General Staff of the KLA will respond."

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter notes, the verb can be interpreted

20 in various ways. It has multiple meanings.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Does that clarify it for you, Mr. Ackerman?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, no it doesn't. Because one of them's talking

23 about plans and the other one's talking about action, and it may be

24 important which one it is.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the word, though, that clarifies it

Page 5938

1 is"project."


3 JUDGE BONOMY: The response that's anticipated is to a project.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, the project may be to attack a police

5 station.


7 MR. ACKERMAN: If you say carry on that project, he's saying go

8 ahead and attack the police station. If he's saying draft a plan to

9 attack the police station, that's something different and that's what our

10 English translation says. My concern is that the English translation

11 should at least reflect what the original Albanian document says, and I'm

12 not sure it does.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zyrapi, can you assist us by telling us whether

14 you understand the statement to refer to a plan for future action or to be

15 a statement that action should be carried out.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I read here, it means a

17 project for the future, that they have to act in the future.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the approval of the General

20 Staff.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.


23 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, during proofing did you have a chance to read various

24 parts of this document?

25 A. Yes, part of it.

Page 5939

1 Q. Just in light of the issue that has just come up, would you -- is

2 it a correct assessment of the document that this really is about the

3 organisation of the General Staff in -- or the local staff in this

4 particular area?

5 A. In this document, you can see that the staff of the operational

6 area of Dukagjin is being formed.

7 Q. So do you think that what Mr. Agroni is referring to here is about

8 the organisation of the local staff, or do you think it's about

9 operations?

10 A. This has to do with the development of the Dukagjin staff, and

11 later on they speak about how the command of the operational zone would

12 look like in the future. You can see it in the minutes.

13 Q. Thank you. Around the time of this document, which is June or the

14 second part of June 1998, what was the military situation like in Kosovo,

15 to your knowledge?

16 A. You mean in general?

17 Q. In general, yes.

18 A. At that time, in June 1998, from the point of view of the KLA, the

19 KLA was not at the required level of development and organisation, both at

20 the local staff level and the general level. It was not well organised.

21 It was more guerilla organisation than a regular army.

22 Q. And what, in terms of the -- of operations were there combats in

23 this period of time?

24 A. There was fighting in June and July. In June, there was fighting

25 in Dukagjin and also in the Drenica zone as well.

Page 5940

1 Q. How would you quantify the fighting? Was it intense fighting?

2 Was it sporadic fighting? How -- if you can try to quantify it in the

3 areas where there were fighting.

4 A. In June, it was not intensive. There were sporadic, small

5 fightings, not very high intensity, I would say.

6 Q. And did that situation change later on?

7 A. Yes. The situation later changed. In July, August, and September

8 the fighting intensified.

9 Q. Why did the fighting intensify?

10 A. In July, the Serb offensive started against all the territories

11 where the KLA was in control.

12 Q. And so are you saying that at that point in time the KLA was

13 fighting a defensive war?

14 A. In July, yes, they were conducting a defensive war. Earlier,

15 there was some attacking as well.

16 Q. Is it possible for you, in general terms, to describe the

17 situation through August and September?

18 A. The general situation in August and September could be described

19 as fighting in the area where the KLA was in control. The Serb forces

20 carried out an offensive in Drenica and other areas. So there was

21 intensive fighting in these territories. I was there until September, but

22 I think that the fighting continued until the end of October.

23 Q. And you have described a process where there was an escalation

24 from July to August. Was there further escalations through September and

25 October, or was it mainly a continuation of what had started in August

Page 5941

1 during those two months, September and October?

2 A. September and October were a continuation of the fighting that

3 started in August and even in July, July and August.

4 Q. During this period through the autumn of 1998, did the role of the

5 General Staff change?

6 A. In spring 1998 and up until the end of 1998, the role of the

7 General Staff changed, because the more the war intensified, the more the

8 staff took up roles, as a proper General Staff in Kosova.

9 Q. And then you left, you said, Kosovo in September of 1998. Where

10 did you go?

11 A. In September 1998, I left Kosova and went to Albania on a duty

12 trip, assigned by the staff, and I stayed there until November, when I

13 went back to Kosova.

14 Q. And when you went back, was that after you had been appointed

15 Chief of Staff?

16 A. No. After I returned, I was appointed as Chief of Staff.

17 Q. Who were the other members of the General Staff at that point in

18 time, December, January 1998 -- well, December 1998 or January 1999?

19 A. From November until January, the composition of the General Staff

20 was this: The Commander of the General Staff was Azem Syla, until March

21 1999; then this function was given to Sulejman Selimi, until May 1999;

22 Deputy Commander of General Staff for operations was Sokol Bashota; Deputy

23 Commander for Political Affairs was Jakup Krasniqi; General Inspector,

24 Rexhep Selimi; Military Court, Sokol Dobruna; Department for Personnel

25 Affairs, Adem Grabovci; Department of Intelligence Affairs, Kadri Veseli;

Page 5942

1 Department for Operational Affairs, I was responsible for that, but then

2 Selim Veseli took that function from April and on. Rram Buja was head of

3 the Department for Military Affairs; Political Department, Hashim Thaqi;

4 the Department of Military Police, the responsible person was Fatmir

5 Limaj; Communications Department, Muse Jashari; Financial Department, Lahi

6 Brahimaj. Then another department was created in March. It was the

7 Department for Education and Training; responsible for that was Ekrem

8 Rexha.

9 As far as I remember, this was the composition of the General

10 Staff at that period. I think I forgot to mention the Finance Department.

11 Q. Did you have a chief for logistics; and who was it?

12 A. Yes, I think I forgot that one. Xhavit Haliti was responsible for

13 logistics.

14 Q. And G6, Civil Administration, did you have such a unit?

15 A. Yes. Rram Buja covered that, Military and Civilian Relations.

16 Q. Now, this structure of the General Staff - in particular, a

17 division into personnel, intelligence, operational issues, logistics,

18 finance, civil administration, political issues, communications - is that

19 a fairly common structure of a General Staff, to your knowledge?

20 A. Yes. This was an ordinary structure that a General Staff would

21 have anywhere; the KLA had the same structure.

22 Q. And so the Directorate for Operational Issues, is that normally

23 known as G3?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So you had that sort of standard structure. What were --

Page 5943

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What were the priorities of the General Staff when you became

3 appointed as Chief of General Staff?

4 A. With my appointment as Chief of Staff, my priorities were training

5 and education of the members of the KLA, especially the training of the

6 commanding staff from the level of the squad to upper levels, to the

7 brigade, offering them adequate training for them to be able to carry out

8 operations in the future.

9 Q. Where was the General Staff located at this point in time, in

10 November 1998?

11 A. The General Staff, from November 1998 until March 1999, was

12 located in the Berisha mountains.

13 Q. Could you describe -- did you have a headquarters? Sorry.

14 A. Yes. There, in the Berisha mountains, there was a headquarters

15 there. I was there with a number of other members.

16 Q. And could you describe the organisation -- I'd like to explore a

17 little bit the organisation of that headquarters. Apart from the senior

18 officers, the members of the General Staff, did you have other officers

19 assisting you in your work?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Approximately how many?

22 A. Yes. Well, it depended on the department. Each department had a

23 number of people that were involved, and I couldn't tell you an exact

24 number of how many people were involved.

25 Q. In terms of the infrastructure, did you have, for example, a

Page 5944

1 communications room?

2 A. Yes, there was a communications room.

3 Q. And in that communications room, or in connection with

4 communication, would there be a duty officer assigned?

5 A. Yes, there were duty officers. These were officers from the

6 operational department.

7 Q. And what was their role, if you could describe that to the Court,

8 please. [Realtime transcript read in error "The role of the duty

9 officer..."]

10 A. The role of the duty officer was to contact the operational zones,

11 learn about their requests, and transmit these requests to the

12 staff, but also have a clear idea of what was going on in the whole

13 territory of Kosova?

14 Q. Would they keep a log of communications, for example?

15 A. Yes. There was a communication log. The communication -- forms

16 of communications were different depending on the possibilities through

17 satellite, telephones, radios, and so on.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there's a transcript issue that is

19 important, I think. It's on page 50, line 24. The question ends with the

20 word "please." And the sentence beginning "The role of the duty

21 officer ..." is an answer, not a question. Line 24.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, thank you. I note that. Thank you,

23 Mr. Ackerman.

24 Mr. Marcussen.

25 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you.

Page 5945

1 Q. I'd like to talk a little bit about the internal organisation

2 about the KLA?

3 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if we could see Exhibit P2449, please. We can

4 just zoom out a little bit, so the witness can see a bit more of this.

5 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, this is an attachment to your statement. Do you

6 recognise this document?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. And what is it?

9 A. This is an interim rules on the organisation of the internal life

10 of the KLA.

11 Q. Is that a document that you provided to the Office of the

12 Prosecutor?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I can see this is dated in Pristina, 1998. Now, if you know, what

15 was the basis for the creation of this document?

16 A. There is a preliminary document which was prepared at the end of

17 1998. This document regulated the organisation of the internal life. In

18 order to prepare this document, we looked at the rules of the Western

19 armies.

20 Q. To your knowledge, was this document updated since the version

21 that we are looking at now?

22 A. Yes. With the passage of time we made changes to it; we updated

23 it. Like, for example, the greetings, the saluting, and other things

24 which time required us to change, depending on the further development and

25 growth of the KLA.

Page 5946

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could we go to page 6 of this document, please.

2 And, sorry, that's my mistake. We need to go back to the e-court page 5.

3 Can we zoom out just a little, one click. Okay.

4 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, could I -- can you see this article on the screen now?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. Thank you. This paragraph is about giving and receiving orders.

7 Would it be correct to say that this is a reflection of the doctrine of

8 command and control; that commanders issued orders, they have to be

9 implemented by subordinates, and they have to report back that orders are

10 completed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So -- so this basic military principle was applied by the KLA.

13 Would that be a fair statement?

14 A. Yes, yes. I remember that from the time I was Chief of Staff.

15 Q. This rule book, who was it given to?

16 A. This book of rules was printed in many copies and sent to the zone

17 commanders, and they were responsible for making it known to other lower

18 units.

19 MR. MARCUSSEN: And we can maybe prepare the next exhibit on the

20 list that I have given to the court officer.

21 Q. So to your knowledge, this rule book would have been available to

22 commanders in all zones. What about commanders further down, such as

23 brigade or battalion levels?

24 A. Yes. It was made available to the battalions, brigades, up to the

25 lower units.

Page 5947

1 Q. How -- so also at the company level, maybe, or platoons, would

2 they have it? Or even further down?

3 A. Yes, up to the lower levels, as I said, the squads, for them to

4 have it and read it.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: Now, if we could now see Exhibit P2461, please.

7 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, we talked about command and control and reports a

8 little bit. Do you have a document before you now on the screen, a new

9 document?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. This document, do you recognise it?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Is that a document that was provided to you -- sorry, provided

14 from you to the Office of the Prosecutor?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where did you have -- where did you get the document?

17 A. This is a document from the archives of the General Staff.

18 Q. And did you retrieve the document from there?

19 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Okay?

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: If we can scroll down maybe first of all to the

22 bottom of the page.

23 Q. Down here there's a stamp and your name and a signature. This is

24 a document issued by you. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 5948

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if we could then --

2 Q. Could you generally describe what this document is.

3 MR. MARCUSSEN: If we can scroll up in the meantime so that we

4 have paragraphs 1 and 2 on the screen.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is an order issued to the zone

6 commanders who should report in the daily briefings on the time during

7 which they will report from what time to what time; and then the way of

8 reporting in extraordinary cases when the -- when the opponents moves, to

9 report immediately through these telephone numbers. They were satellite

10 phones which were available at the duty officer, the deputy commander of

11 the General Staff, and the telephone I had at my disposal, and the way the

12 reports should be compiled, how the reporting should be done on the

13 movements of the enemy, the operations. The proposals for decisions,

14 requests to the General Staff, and their reporting on eventual operations

15 and casualties resulting thereof.

16 Q. And is your order that a certain standard format had to be used

17 for the daily -- well, for reports made up to the General Staff?

18 A. Yes, yes. It was linked to that part of the book of rules on how

19 they should report to the General Staff.

20 Q. And we have a translation available, so I don't think we need to

21 explore that in more detail?

22 MR. MARCUSSEN: Now, if we could go to the next exhibit, which

23 would be P2448, please. There we are.

24 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, this document, do you recognise this?

25 MR. MARCUSSEN: Maybe we need to zoom out just a little bit for

Page 5949

1 the witness to see.

2 Q. You recognise the document. I can see you nod.

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. What is this document?

5 A. This is a document -- this is an order, actually, on not exceeding

6 the powers, and about disciplinary issues. This is an order issued by me

7 to the operational zones of the KLA.

8 MR. MARCUSSEN: Again, we have a translation available.

9 Q. But what I'd like to ask you is: What was the background for the

10 issuance of this order?

11 A. I issued this order because at that time, and even before I took

12 over that duty, I had received several complaints from the zone

13 commanders, from the soldiers, from the civilian population of

14 maltreatment --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

16 A. -- of exceeding of powers of officers and soldiers. So I deemed

17 that this was very important for me to issue this order to discipline the

18 soldiers and the commanders, and for them to know a code of conduct.


20 Q. Maybe this is a good juncture to deal with a related issue.

21 Have -- during the time you were an officer -- an officer in the KLA, did

22 you hear of any crimes being committed against civilians by members of the

23 KLA?

24 A. I have heard opinions being expressed, but I was not formally

25 informed. As I said, I heard when I visited people on the ground.

Page 5950

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: We're hearing a siren, but I think it's just a

2 normal Wednesday lunchtime indication. So unless case the Court want me,

3 I'll just to carry on.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: The week's passing very quickly, Mr. Marcussen.

5 I'm delighted to hear.

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: That's what happens when you work on weekends, I

7 guess. It's a normal Monday, but we will continue.

8 Q. Did you hear about liquidation of people considered to be

9 collaborators?

10 A. As I said earlier, I have heard such opinions being expressed,

11 that there have been such instances. Even though, as a military person in

12 a superior position, I knew very well that you cannot call someone a

13 collaborator if he's not -- he or she is not taken to a military court and

14 been investigated. At that time from what I heard, there had been such

15 cases.

16 Q. I'd like to just deal a little bit more with disciplinary matters.

17 Could sanctions be imposed for breaches of disciplinary rules?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who could impose such sanctions?

20 A. The person who could sanction such disciplinary rules were --

21 began from the zone level up. They reprimanded the soldiers orally or

22 gave them written critics or even sentence them to short time of detention

23 or even refer them to the General Staff and to the military court.

24 Q. And in instances of disciplinary -- sorry. In instances of

25 breaches of disciplinary rules, at least if they were more serious ones,

Page 5951

1 would reports be made?

2 A. The zone commanders in their reports should mention the

3 disciplinary measures taken against those soldiers or commanders who might

4 have breached discipline.

5 Q. Would records also be kept in the personal files of such soldiers

6 or officers?

7 A. Yes. As far as I remember, yes.

8 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could we see Exhibit P2463 now. Now, again we

9 have a translation of this document. It's an order requesting the

10 military police to assist an investigation or an investigating judge.

11 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, this document, do you recognise this?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. And is that a document that was provided to you -- again, sorry,

14 from you -- or provided by you to the Office of the Prosecutor?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. And how did you get this document?

17 A. I got it from the archives of the Pashtrik operation zone.

18 MR. MARCUSSEN: And I think we can just move on to the next

19 one -- to the next document, which is P2464 --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you do that.

21 Mr. Zyrapi, what does the reference to the investigating judge

22 mean?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is an order issued by the

24 military court given to the investigating judge to investigate a serious

25 breach. I don't remember at this moment what it was about, but this is

Page 5952

1 one of the requests that is for the investigating judge to go to this zone

2 and conduct investigations. This refers also to the military police.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Who was the judge referred to in this case

4 appointed by?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was appointed by the military

6 court.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: By "military court," do you mean the KLA's own

8 military court?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 Mr. Marcussen.

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'll get back to the office of the military court

13 just in a bit. He was mentioned in the list of members of the General

14 Staff that the witness gave earlier on. But I'll explore that after this

15 next exhibit. I don't know if we have the next one up. Could we have

16 P2464, please. Oh, there it is. My apologies.

17 Q. Now, again -- no, sorry, this we don't have a translation of yet.

18 Mr. Zyrapi, do you recognise this document?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Again, is it correct that this is a document provided from you and

21 you collected this in the same place as you collected the other document?

22 A. Yes, yes. It was taken from Pashtrik operation zone archives.

23 Q. And could you just explain the Court what this document is.

24 A. This document is about a disciplinary breach by a soldier who is

25 recommended to be detained for four hours -- for 48 hours, and the order

Page 5953

1 should be immediately executed.

2 Q. I think this document is not in Albanian but in Serbian; why is

3 that, if you know?

4 A. The order is in Serbian because the soldier is of Bosnian

5 ethnicity, and it is written in his language.

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: And could we see the second page of this exhibit

7 please.

8 Q. And is this a handwritten version of the same order but in -- in

9 Albanian?

10 A. Yes. It is the same order. This is handwritten in Albanian. It

11 is a translation of the previous document.

12 Q. Now, all this has just been to show something about the

13 infrastructure and the organisation of the KLA in disciplinary matters.

14 I'd just like to go back to the military court --

15 MR. SEPENUK: Your Honour, excuse me for interrupting and I might

16 be remiss here. Do we have an English version of that?

17 MR. MARCUSSEN: We do not.

18 MR. SEPENUK: Your Honour, we do not have -- I just wanted to -- I

19 thought so. We do not have an English version of this document, Your

20 Honour.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I understand that.

22 MR. SEPENUK: So I'm trying to follow as much as I can, but we do

23 not have a translation.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed, but you do have a Serb version. You have

25 Mr. Visnjic, and therefore I thought it would be unnecessary in this

Page 5954

1 instance to mark this for identification. I thought this is one we could

2 cope with without undue formality.

3 MR. SEPENUK: Yeah, that's fine, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 Mr. Marcussen.

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you. That was also my thought, but I should

7 have made that clear, of course.

8 Q. The military court. Now, you said earlier that on the General

9 Staff, there was Dobruna, who was head of the military court. Did he have

10 any legal training, to your knowledge?

11 A. Mr. Sokol Dobruna was the main person in the military court. By

12 profession, he is a lawyer and he has experience in this regard. He has

13 quite a lot of experience in justice.

14 Q. And was he assisted by any staff?

15 A. To my recollection, yes, there were three other assistants. In

16 every zone, there was an officer responsible for legal matters.

17 Q. Where would the court sit?

18 A. As far as I remember, it depend -- it would sit depending on the

19 circumstances, wherever it was called for it to sit, but mostly in the

20 Berisha mountains.

21 Q. Do you know whether it had regular -- regular sessions, or would

22 it sit on an ad hoc basis when there was a need, if you know?

23 A. As far as I remember, it depended on the circumstances, where the

24 need was.

25 Q. I'd like to just explore another related area, the Geneva

Page 5955

1 Conventions. Do you know whether the Geneva Conventions were disseminated

2 in the KLA or distributed?

3 A. To my knowledge, when I joined the KLA, the Director of the

4 Department for Military Affairs, who was Rexhep Selimi at that time, told

5 me that he had distributed some booklets by the Red Cross, which included

6 all the rules of warfare and the legal rules applying to them, which he

7 had distributed to operational zones and to commanders of smaller zones.

8 Q. When training was given to soldiers and officers, was there any

9 training or information about the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions?

10 A. As I said, during these trainings, even though they were

11 short-term trainings, apart from the military training we gave the

12 soldiers, we also trained them on the laws of war and the Geneva

13 Convention.

14 Q. Was that training and information, was that given by KLA staff, or

15 were there anybody from the outside assisting from time to time?

16 A. In the course of the training, the training was carried out by

17 members of the military court, but also people who came from outside,

18 people who dealt with the International Red Cross, for example.

19 Q. When you had become -- when you had become Chief of Staff, would

20 have meetings with the zone commanders?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How often?

23 A. From January to March, we had frequent meetings every fortnight, I

24 would say, with the zone commanders.

25 Q. And apart from the zone commanders and you, who would participate

Page 5956

1 in those meetings?

2 A. In addition to me and the zone commanders, present was also the

3 deputy commander of the General Staff.

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: And maybe we can prepare the next exhibit now.

5 Q. When these meetings were held, prior to those meetings did you

6 receive any written reports from the zone commanders?

7 A. When the zone commanders came to meet me, I received written

8 reports. Sometimes they would report to me orally and then submit the

9 report later in writing, but generally the reports were in writing.

10 Q. And were minutes taken of those meetings?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: If we could see now Exhibit P2460.

13 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, this document, is that one you recognise?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And, again, is that a document that you had provided to the Office

16 of the Prosecutor?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And where have you received that document from?

19 A. From the General Staff archives.

20 Q. And is this an example of minutes taken from a meeting between the

21 General Staff and the zone commanders?

22 A. Yes. This is a document which has been compiled after the zone

23 commanders had submitted their reports in writing.

24 Q. We also have a translation of this document, so I'm not going to

25 go through this. But I'd like to ask you, there are a number of headings

Page 5957

1 in this report; leading and commanding, combat moral, training and

2 mobilisation matters of personnel, logistics, defence and safety, combat

3 situation, reporting on enemy forces and KLA forces, and proposals for

4 tactics and operations. Was this a standard format of the reports of

5 these meetings?

6 A. Yes. This was a general, standard format that was used.

7 Q. And so this reflects a standard, general format you had during

8 these meetings. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour, I'm going to move into a slightly

11 different area, so if this is a good time for a break, then maybe we can

12 take it here.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zyrapi, we have to have a break at this stage

14 for about half an hour. The usher will show you where to go while we have

15 the break. Would you please go with him now. Thank you.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And we shall resume at 10 minutes to 1.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.

20 [The witness takes the stand]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

22 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, I'll move into an issue related to the one about

24 meetings where we left off, but let's talk a little bit about planning and

25 ordering of combat operations. Once the structure of the KLA had been

Page 5958

1 more formalised in November/December 1998, whose responsibility was it to

2 order combat operations?

3 A. At the time when the structure was stabilised, this competency was

4 of the General Staff. So I had that responsibility.

5 Q. Prior to such operations, how -- what would be the planning

6 process of the operations? Could you try to outline that for us.

7 A. Could you ask the question again, please.

8 Q. Before ordering a combat operation, how would the planning process

9 be, if you can describe that? For example, did you meet with zone

10 commanders, or how was the planning taking place?

11 A. The procedure was like this: First of all, we discussed within

12 the General Staff, and the zone commander of the relevant zone for which

13 this operation was prepared was also asked to attend.

14 Q. And then what would the next step be?

15 A. Then after everything was precise, the approval of the General

16 Staff was given to the zone commander to carry out that operation in the

17 zone where he was operating.

18 Q. And the zone commander would then implement the order through more

19 detailed orders. Is that how I should understand it?

20 A. Yes. The zone commander would act according to the instructions

21 contained in the order about the operation.

22 Q. During the period from, say, December 1998 to the beginning of the

23 NATO bombing, could zone commanders, on their own, order combat

24 operations?

25 A. The zone commanders could give orders on their own if they were

Page 5959

1 attacked in their zones.

2 Q. We'll get back to the military situation after the NATO bombing

3 started. But after that point in time, was it still possible for the

4 General Staff to order command operations -- combat operations, or did the

5 zone commanders have more discretion after the 24th of March, 1999?

6 A. Yes. After the 24th the NATO bombing started and there was a Serb

7 offensive as well, so it was impossible to meet the zone commanders. We

8 used to communicate with satellite telephones or Motorolas. But if we

9 could not communicate, the zone commander could give orders and command

10 operations, but at the first instance when they could contact the

11 General Staff they had to do so.

12 Q. Thank you. I would like to now move into sort of more practical

13 structure of the KLA and moving down to the bottom of the organisation, so

14 to speak. How many soldiers did the KLA have during the time you were

15 Chief of Staff?

16 A. During the time I was Chief of Staff until March 1999, the KLA had

17 approximately 17.000 to 18.000 soldiers in the territory of Kosova.

18 Q. Those soldiers, were they all - how should I put it? - full-time

19 soldiers?

20 A. Not all of them were full-time soldiers because there was not

21 enough equipment to go around, so many people were dealing with logistics

22 issues and supplies, things like that.

23 Q. Above the level of the -- how were the individual soldiers

24 organised? What was the first sort of unit up from the individual

25 soldier?

Page 5960

1 A. So there was the individual soldier; then the squad; then the

2 platoon, the platoons in a company; then battalions, brigades, and zones.

3 Q. The squads of the KLA, how many people did you have in those?

4 A. It depended on the size of the brigade or the battalion or the

5 company. A squad would have three to five soldiers.

6 Q. And a squad, how was -- a squad would receive its order in what

7 form, oral or written?

8 A. The squad received its orders from the platoon commander. The

9 platoon commander received his orders from the company commander. I would

10 think that the squads received their orders orally.

11 Q. And the KLA platoons, how many members did they have?

12 A. Again, depending on the size of the battalion or the brigade, a

13 platoon would have 15 to 30 soldiers.

14 Q. Who appointed the commanders of a platoon?

15 A. Platoon commanders were appointed by their own commanders. So

16 they were proposed by the company commander, and then the zone commander

17 approved that proposal. So I'm speaking about this period from December

18 to March. The people who were appointed platoon commanders were people

19 who had been pointed out as very good soldiers during their training.

20 Q. And then a step up, how many platoons did you have in a company?

21 A. Again, depending on the size of the brigade, there would be three

22 to four platoons in one company.

23 Q. Is that slightly smaller than the number of platoons often found

24 in regular armies?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5961

1 Q. And why was that?

2 A. Because it was still developing. It was in the process of growth,

3 and it depended on the number of people that the unit itself had.

4 Q. And the company commanders, who appointed them?

5 A. The company commanders were proposed by the battalion commanders,

6 and then the zone commander approved their appointment.

7 Q. And then if we go through the same with the battalion, how many

8 companies did you have in the typical battalion?

9 A. It depended on the size of the brigade. There would be three or

10 four battalions. There are -- there were some other platoons in the

11 brigades that dealt with logistics issues as well.

12 Q. Sorry. If we just go back to the battalion. How many companies

13 did you have in a battalion?

14 A. Three to four companies in one battalion. As I said, there were

15 some specialised platoons attached to the battalions that dealt with

16 logistics, communications.

17 Q. And again, the battalion commanders, how were they appointed?

18 A. They were proposed by the brigade commander and approved by the

19 zone commander.

20 Q. Did the battalions have headquarters?

21 A. Yes. They had a commander of the battalion, a deputy commander.

22 There were other deputies that dealt with issues of logistics and

23 communications.

24 Q. So did the structure at the battalion level mirror the structure

25 of the General Staff, G1 through G8?

Page 5962

1 A. No. It was similar to the brigade structure, so there were not so

2 many departments or directorates within the battalion or the brigade.

3 Q. At the battalion level, were there military police attached at the

4 battalion level?

5 A. Not at the battalion level, no, there was no military police

6 attached.

7 Q. If we move up then to the brigade level, now let's go through the

8 same exercise. How many battalions did you have per brigade? I think you

9 mentioned it before, but let's just take it here again.

10 A. Well, the brigade would have three or four infantry battalions,

11 and then specialised companies within the brigade. For example, the

12 special intervention company, the logistics company, a unit for the

13 support of communications issues.

14 Q. And so the -- for example, the special intervention company, what

15 size would a company typically have?

16 A. It depended, but generally this would be a platoon. That would be

17 the size, because different brigades had different number of people that

18 were attached to them.

19 MR. MARCUSSEN: We'll soon move to the next exhibit, so maybe we

20 can prepare that.

21 Q. The special -- these specialised companies of a platoon size, what

22 were their functions?

23 A. Well, they had the duty to intervene -- rapid intervention in the

24 areas where there were attacks. They would observe the situation on the

25 ground, the movement of the enemy. This was generally what these

Page 5963

1 companies would do, in addition to other duties given to them by the

2 brigade commander.

3 Q. Okay.

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Now if we could see Exhibit P2458, please.

5 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, do you recognise this document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And is it correct you have provided this to us, to the Office of

8 the Prosecutor?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And where did you get this document from?

11 A. From the archives of the command of the operational zone.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. MARCUSSEN: We have a translation of this document with an

14 awful lot of numbers in it.

15 Q. Could you describe, what is this document?

16 A. This is a document issued by the zone commander to the brigade.

17 It gives here different quarters of where these brigades would be

18 operating.

19 Q. It was translated as "different quarters." Is it, for example,

20 the 121st Brigade, what we see is the coordinates or points which give the

21 boundary of the zone of responsibility of the brigade. Is that how it

22 works?

23 A. Yes, yes. Each of the brigades you have number 121 here, 122; and

24 here are the coordinates of the area of responsibility for each brigade.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 5964

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if we can move to the next exhibit, P2465.

2 Q. And while that comes up, who appointed the commanders of the

3 brigades?

4 A. The brigade commanders were appointed by the General Staff at the

5 proposal of the zone commander.

6 Q. And once again, is this a document that you have provided to the

7 Office of the Prosecutor, the one that's now on the screen?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. MARCUSSEN: And now we do not have a translation of it, so I

10 guess we should have it marked only identification.

11 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, what is this document?

12 A. This is a document issued by the commander of the operational

13 zone. This is the proposal he has made for appointing a brigade

14 commander.

15 Q. And so that proposal would have gone to the General Staff, to you,

16 in other words, would it?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Do you remember this particular recommendation and whether you

19 approved it?

20 A. Yes. I remember this particular proposal. This proposal was not

21 approved by the General Staff.

22 Q. At the brigade level, apart from the different battalions and

23 special units and logistics units and so on and so forth, was there

24 military police attached at the brigade level?

25 A. Yes, there were units, platoons of military police attached to the

Page 5965

1 brigade.

2 Q. And --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that the full extent of the document, one page?

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes, that's my -- yes.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, you don't just want to get the witness to read

6 it and resolve the question of translation?

7 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes, if we -- we can do it that way, then that

8 will be easier for everyone I guess.

9 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, could I ask you to read out the document?

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: I guess we have to scroll up a little bit so we

11 get the whole thing.

12 Q. We have at the top the emblem of the KLA and then we have some

13 text there giving a date and reference numbers, and we can jump over that?

14 JUDGE BONOMY: And we know it's the operational zone of Pastrik.


16 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, can we just read the text, Mr. Marcussen.


18 Q. Now, who is the document from and who is the document to, if we

19 could deal with that first?

20 A. The document was written by the operative zone of Pashtrik; at

21 the time it was Ekrem Rexha. At that time it was to appoint and

22 transfer -- this was addressed to the General Staff, pursuant the rules

23 and regulations of the General Staff of the KLA, with the aim of

24 increasing combat readiness of the units.

25 "We propose as follows: Selim Krasniqi, born on the 6th of 10th,

Page 5966

1 1949, in Prizren municipality. Until now in Brigade 125, proposed to

2 become commander of 125th Brigade.

3 "Number 2, Nehat Basha born on the 24th of 1, 1963, born in

4 Hudanovs, Gurash municipality, or Kamenica municipality. Until now

5 commander of the 125th Brigade, proposed to become Chief of Staff of 125th

6 Brigade."

7 And this document has been issued in two copies; one copy goes to

8 the Chief of Staff of the KLA and then the other copy goes to the archives

9 of the operational zone.

10 Q. And then there's a signature block which says the name of the

11 commander and the stamp.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the stamp of the zone and

14 Commander Ekrem Rexha, and below it, it's his signature.


16 Q. Thank you. Could you briefly describe the structure of the

17 headquarter at the brigade level. What kind of facilities did they have,

18 communications?

19 A. The brigade command at that time communicated with Motorolas or

20 radio communication. Another way of communication was through couriers or

21 directly with the zone commanders. They did not have any other means of

22 communication.

23 Q. But at this level there would have been -- we can see, for

24 example, an archive. I guess that follows from the document we've just

25 seen. Would there have been a duty office, like the one described at the

Page 5967

1 headquarters level, taking care of communications?

2 A. Yes, of course. We had the archives, the zones had their own

3 archives where they kept all the minutes or the orders issued. There was

4 also an archive at the General Staff.

5 Q. Thank you. Then I'd like to move on to the zones. Now, did you

6 still, at the time when you were Chief of Staff, have seven zones,

7 operational zones?

8 A. Yes, at that time, there were seven operational zones.

9 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'd like to show now Exhibit P2469. And as we --

10 it might come up very small. I'd just like to distribute a print of that

11 exhibit to the Defence and the Judges. If the document hasn't come up on

12 the screen, I can give my document to the witness. We're not going to go

13 through this in great detail. I just thought it might be handy to

14 indicate approximately where the zones were.

15 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, does this reflect, approximately, the boundaries of

16 the different zones during your time as Chief of Staff?

17 A. Yes, approximately, the map shows the boundaries of the

18 operational zones.

19 Q. Now, just so we have the right understanding of this, did the KLA

20 hold the entire territory within each zone?

21 A. No, no. Only a very little part of each zone.

22 Q. And is there a way to generally describe the areas that were held

23 by the KLA? Were you mainly in the mountains, on the low ground? Can you

24 generally describe where you were.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there's a point where leading just

Page 5968

1 goes a little too far. I think it's been going on a lot. I haven't said

2 anything, but that goes a little far, I think.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Let me just see if the non-leading --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Go back to your first question, please.


7 Q. Could you describe the nature of the areas that were held by the

8 KLA.

9 A. Mostly the zones held by KLA were mountainous areas. It was there

10 where it held control, mostly. There were also some non-mountainous areas

11 under its control in Dukagjin territory, Malisheve, and other lowlands.

12 But, as I said, most of its control -- of its territory was in the

13 highlands.

14 Q. In the areas where you also held lowlands, what zones were they on

15 this map, the numbers of the zones?

16 A. The lowlands were mostly found in the Malisheve municipality; some

17 in Dukagjin, in Gllogjane, which included Barani valley. They were the

18 lowlands. The remainder was mostly highlands.

19 Q. And so what zone numbers were the ones where you had also

20 lowlands, if you look at the map?

21 A. Zone 3, 1, 2, where there was an overlapping of responsibilities

22 between two communes.

23 Q. At the zone level, who appointed the zone commander?

24 A. At the zone level, the commanders who were appointed by the

25 General Staff.

Page 5969

1 Q. Orders to and from -- sorry, orders from the General Staff to the

2 zone, would they be oral or written?

3 A. They were both oral and written, but they were always accompanied

4 by written orders when they were oral.

5 Q. Could you explain that, please. So an oral order is issued and

6 then you're saying it's followed up by a written order, or how should we

7 understand this?

8 A. Yes, they were followed up. Let's say, if an order was given

9 orally, directly to the zone commander, then it was followed up by a

10 written order.

11 Q. And orders going from the zone commands down to the brigades, how

12 would they be, oral or written?

13 A. Most of them were written, but there were also oral orders,

14 depending on the situation.

15 Q. And in the case of oral orders, would they also be followed up by

16 written orders or not at that level?

17 A. On this level, when there were oral orders, they were followed up

18 by written orders.

19 Q. Were there also military police units attached at the zone level?

20 A. Yes, there were.

21 Q. Okay. Now, just for the purpose of illustrating some types of the

22 documents that were -- and records that were kept at the zone level, I

23 would like to run through a series of exhibits, and the first one would be

24 Exhibit P2450.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen, has there already been evidence that

Page 5970

1 there were military police units at a lower level or at a higher level?

2 MR. MARCUSSEN: We have had at the brigade level, and we will get

3 to the General Staff level in a minute.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 MR. MARCUSSEN: This is one of those documents where we do have a

6 translation.

7 Q. But, Mr. Zyrapi, could you explain to the Court what this document

8 is.

9 A. This is a document that reflects the general data of a soldier

10 that has joined the KLA.

11 Q. And where would these kind of documents be kept?

12 A. Usually, such documents were held in the operational zone.

13 Q. And the second-last line of handwriting, I see this is from the

14 15th of May, 1998, so at that level, from what I understand from your

15 earlier evidence, this would have been held by the local commander at that

16 time. Would that be correct?

17 MR. MARCUSSEN: And I know this is leading, but I hope it's okay.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. It's issued by

19 the commander who was then appointed, Mr. Ramush Haradinaj.

20 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if we could see the next exhibit, P2451.

21 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, what is -- what is this document?

22 A. This is a document of the Dukagjin operation zone, and it is about

23 dispatching reinforcements to Vuksh village. And you see the names of

24 soldiers being sent there as reinforcements.

25 MR. MARCUSSEN: And a similar kind of document, if we could see

Page 5971

1 P2452. Again, we have a translation of it, but if we can zoom in a bit on

2 the, sort of, body of the document. Yes, please. Thank you.

3 Q. What is this document?

4 A. This document is issued by the same zone, and it is about the

5 re-assignment of a soldier -- of a commander on the request of the

6 operation zone. He is re-assigned; this officer is re-assigned to the

7 unit in Dujaka village, and it is signed by the commander.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. MARCUSSEN: And could we have Exhibit P2466, please.

10 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, this is one of those documents where we don't have a

11 translation. Maybe we can deal with it in the same way. Could you first

12 please describe what is this document.

13 A. This is a document issued by the Pashtrik operational zone. It's

14 an order to mobilise materiel means in that area.

15 Q. Could I ask you -- could I ask you to read out this document from

16 the place where it says: "Order," -- I think it says: "Order for

17 mobilisation ..." And then read the document out for us, please.

18 A. It's an order for mobilising materiel means. It's sent -- it's

19 addressed to the logistic sector of this operation zone "to mobilise four

20 power generators, 220 watts or 50 HZ, two in Peqan and two in Semetisht

21 village. Number 2, for each person from whom these means are taken, he

22 should be given a certificate that these generators were taken away from

23 him. Responsible for implementing this order is the chief of the

24 logistical sector of the Pashtrik operation zone. This order takes

25 immediate effect." It is done in three copies. One is sent to the chief

Page 5972

1 of logistics, one to the archives. It is signed by the commander of the

2 zone, Ekrem Rexha.

3 Q. Would -- does this order reflect how equipment would be mobilised

4 by the KLA?

5 A. Yes. This document reflects exactly the way the -- such means

6 were mobilised when I was Chief of Staff.

7 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if we move on to the next document, which is

8 P2467. Sorry. I should probably come up with a formal ground.

9 Q. The last document we saw, the one we just talked about, the

10 mobilisation of generators, is that a document that you have provided to

11 the OTP?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And where did you get that document from?

14 A. Yes. I got the document from the archives of the Pashtrik

15 operation zone.

16 Q. Okay. Is that the same with this document we have before us now

17 on the screen? Is that a document you had given to the OTP and collected

18 in the archive yourself?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen, do you not have enough documents

21 translated to enable you to conduct your examination with translated

22 documents?

23 MR. MARCUSSEN: We really are putting these documents in simply

24 for the purpose of illustrating the kind of records and the level of

25 organisation of the KLA at the indictment period.

Page 5973

1 JUDGE BONOMY: That's why I ask you the question. Do you not have

2 enough translated to do that?

3 MR. MARCUSSEN: No -- well, I mean, what we have is I think what

4 the witness can speak to is this. But I'm coming to the end.


6 MR. MARCUSSEN: I have this and one more document. Maybe in the

7 interests of time, this one we should ask for a translation of.

8 Q. But, Mr. Zyrapi, could you please tell us what is this document

9 about.

10 A. This document that you -- we see here reflects an order whereby

11 two candidates are sent for training as commanders of battalions to a

12 course organised by the General Staff of the KLA. Number 2 shows the data

13 of the candidates.

14 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if we can scroll down.

15 Q. Where -- how many documents -- how many copies was this document

16 issued in, if you look at the bottom left?

17 A. It was issued in two copies; one sent to the brigade commander and

18 to the Chief of the General Staff of the KLA and to the archives

19 the operational zone. And it was signed by the commander of the zone,

20 Ekrem.

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: If we could now see P2468 --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: This one will be marked for identification and

23 you'll have a make a written filing with the translation in due course

24 before it will be admitted.

25 MR. MARCUSSEN: We will do that I think, rather than spending

Page 5974

1 court time reading out the document.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, this particular document will be

3 automatically admitted once that happens.

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Now, this next exhibit consists of a number of very

6 similar-looking pages as the one we see on the screen now.

7 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, what is it we see on the screen here?

8 A. We see a certificate which proves that documents and orders issued

9 by the Pashtrik operation zone are accepted.

10 Q. And who have accepted them?

11 A. They were accepted by the brigade commanders.

12 Q. And I'm sorry that we don't have a translation of this, but could

13 I ask you just to read out what this says, as it is so short.

14 A. Pashtrik operation zone. The date is 10 January 1999.

15 "Certificate to accept the order number 02/1; then 28, dated 10 January

16 1999, issued by the Pashtrik operation zone. Accept Brigade 121." It's

17 not signed because, it hasn't accepted it. Then you see the other

18 brigades, 122, 123, 124, 125, which have signed.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. MARCUSSEN: I propose to tender just this page of this

21 exhibit, and we'll leave the other pages behind.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zyrapi. Now, I'd like to ask you a bit about the

23 other assets that might have been attached to the zones. We've heard from

24 another witness in this case that he attended at a KLA military

25 hospital -- at a military hospital. Did -- at what level were -- well,

Page 5975

1 first of all, did the KLA have military hospitals indeed?

2 A. Yes. It did have field military hospitals.

3 Q. And under whose immediate command did they fall?

4 A. They fell depending on the level, on the zone level. There were

5 the outpatient clinics. There were also military hospitals that fell

6 under the jurisdiction of the General Staff, depending on the territory.

7 I'm talking about from December to March period. It depended on the

8 territories where they were located. A military hospital was located in

9 territory of the Pashtrik operation zone and in Pagarusha village

10 concretely. One was in Drenica, and in other places there were mostly

11 clinics.

12 Q. All in all, how many hospitals and clinics did the KLA have?

13 A. I'm talking about the period from December to March. There were

14 two military hospitals, and every zone had its clinic. I can't give you

15 an exact number. There were seven zones; each had an ambulance. But

16 depending on the territory or the units deployed there, there were other

17 clinics.

18 Q. Thank you. Did the soldiers of the KLA wear uniforms?

19 A. Yes, they did. In 1998, there were less uniforms. Some of them

20 didn't wear a uniform. In 1999, there were more in uniform. Almost all

21 the soldiers were wearing uniforms. Uniforms were different because we

22 received them from various countries, from various armies. There were

23 camouflage and non-camouflage uniforms.

24 Some soldiers, those who served in the logistics, wore uniforms

25 that were similar to the military uniforms. So, as I said, in 1999, the

Page 5976

1 number of soldiers in uniform was greater. The uniforms were different in

2 terms of colours. They had the same emblem, KLA emblem, which was the

3 same. But the uniforms, as I said, they were different.

4 Q. And how did the KLA emblem look?

5 A. The KLA emblem, you can see it in the document where my order was.

6 Soldiers wore it on the left arm, and it read "KLA, Kosovo Liberation

7 Army." It was red and there was a black eagle in the centre. And the

8 same emblem was also on the cap; it was the same but smaller in size.

9 Q. And the -- when you said you referred to -- I think you said "my

10 document," are you referring to the rule book?

11 A. Yes, as you see it in the rule book. That was the emblem that

12 soldiers wore also on their caps. The one that they wore on the left arm

13 was bigger.

14 MR. MARCUSSEN: So that was P2449, just for reference.

15 Q. Did all soldiers wear the KLA emblem?

16 A. Not all the KLA had uniforms. As I said earlier, most of them had

17 camouflage or non-camouflage uniforms.

18 Q. But those who did have a uniform, did they have an -- all have an

19 emblem on them or ...

20 A. All those who wore uniforms also had the emblem on it.

21 Q. When KLA soldiers were going on leave, for example, would they

22 bring their uniforms?

23 A. It depended on the soldier. If he went to a territory that was

24 not under the KLA territory, he surrendered the uniform to the command.

25 Those who went to territories under the control of the KLA, they kept the

Page 5977

1 uniform when they went home.

2 Q. And what about personal weapons?

3 A. In territories which were not controlled by KLA, they didn't take

4 the weapons with them; especially the long rifles, they left them with the

5 units. They could keep their pistols, but in territories controlled by

6 the KLA they went home in full attire.

7 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour, we could maybe take -- stop for today

8 here. I have a few points relating to weapons, communications, some

9 things to tie up for tomorrow, but we could have a break here.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

11 Mr. Zyrapi, we have to finish there for today because another case

12 occupies this courtroom this afternoon. You need to come back to continue

13 your evidence tomorrow; that will be at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.

14 Meanwhile, between now and then, it's extremely important that you

15 have no discussion with anyone about your evidence. You can discuss what

16 you like with whomsoever you like, as long as you do not, with anyone,

17 discuss any aspect of your evidence, either the evidence you've given or

18 the evidence you may yet give in the court. So we'll see you tomorrow at

19 2.15. Could you now leave the courtroom with the usher.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Until 2.15 tomorrow.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of

24 November, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.