1 Monday, 29 January 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, you've made a Rule 70 application to
6 us. There's a measure of urgency about it. Unless there was any dissent
7 from counsel for the accused, then we would order responses to that by
8 Wednesday. You've also made an application for additional protective
9 measures for K79. When do you envisage that witness commencing testimony?
10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we thought that this witness would go
11 into tomorrow. Witness Vollebaek was scheduled to start Wednesday. He
12 doesn't arrive until late Tuesday, I think. So, we might run short
13 tomorrow and then K79 would follow Vollebaek probably starting on
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, again, we would order responses to that
16 motion by I think Tuesday evening in that case, so that we can look at it
17 first thing on Wednesday just in case it's necessary to advance that
18 witness's testimony.
19 Your next witness, Mr. Hannis.
20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. Our next witness will be
21 K90, 9-0. Your Honour, this witness will testify as both viva voce and a
22 92 ter based on his written statement. We filed a supplemental
23 information on Friday and indicated that we were going to make an oral
24 motion at this time, Your Honour, to supplement the original 65 ter to
25 lead evidence on some of that information provided in the supplemental
2 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
3 JUDGE BONOMY: I regret, I don't have this document, Mr. Hannis.
4 All of this must have been happening very late on Friday.
5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour --
6 JUDGE BONOMY: So one's being printed just now. Just give me a
8 MR. HANNIS: Okay. While we're waiting on that, Your Honour, I
9 can provide you with some additional information. This is a witness for
10 whom protective measures of pseudonym, image, and voice distortion was
11 granted. His evidence pertains to paragraphs 25 through 32, 72(H), and
12 75(H). And with regard to his written statement, Your Honour, paragraphs
13 3 through 23 talk about activities in Bosnia in 1992 through 1995.
14 I don't intend to ask him any questions about that evidence. I
15 only left it in the statement for the purposes of showing this witness's
16 background in the military and as it pertains to any weight you might give
17 his evidence about military procedures, uniforms, insignia, weapons, et
19 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it that it's -- the contents of paragraph 8
20 of this supplemental information sheet that you invite us to allow you to
21 lead evidence on?
22 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. This was a follow-up to the
23 paragraph in his statement where he said he had additional information
24 about incidents in Kosovo that I mentioned last week.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 Is there opposition to that?
2 Mr. Ackerman.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't have any, and I don't know
4 about my colleagues. I have no opposition to that. I do, however, have
5 opposition to the suggestion that paragraphs 3 through I think it's 23 --
6 3 through 23 should be left in the 65 ter statement. They're totally
7 irrelevant to any issue in this case at all.
8 They go way beyond providing background about his military career
9 which could be elicited in, I would say, three minutes of direct
10 examination. So I would ask that paragraphs 3 through 23 be stricken from
11 the 65 ter statement -- I'm sorry, 92 ter statement.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, we agree with the submission that it
14 would be unduly prejudicial to include paragraphs 3 to 23 so far as they
15 relate to the events that took place. There would be a temptation to
16 compare some of these, indeed, to events in Kosovo.
17 On the other hand, we agree with Mr. Ackerman also that it is
18 relevant to know the military experience of the witness and that there are
19 references in there just to his experience in general, but, for example,
20 there is also reference to paramilitaries; and to some extent, some of
21 that evidence and how he recognised them and so on would be relevant.
22 So we invite you to lead that as oral evidence, but we also order
23 you to produce a statement that excludes paragraphs 3 to 23.
24 MR. HANNIS: We will do that, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 Now we can have the witness. We need to go into closed session
2 for the witness to come into court.
3 And, of course, we will allow you to lead evidence from the
4 supplemental information sheet.
5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
6 [Closed session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Good morning, sir. Good morning, sir. In the interests of
15 security, you will be known to us as Witness K90. We will not be
16 referring -- do you hear me now?
17 In the interests of security, you will be referred to as Witness
18 K90. We will not be referring to your name at any stage; that is no
19 discourtesy. It is in your own personal interests. Would you now please
20 make the solemn declaration to speak the truth by reading aloud the
21 document which will now be placed before you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
25 Now, what are the documents you are arranging there. Can you tell
1 me, please.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my statement.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you help me, Mr. Hannis, with the document that
4 the witness has --
5 MR. HANNIS: From here, Your Honour, it looks like a copy of his
7 JUDGE BONOMY: We -- I think you should --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you made notes on this statement yourself, or
10 is it a clear copy of the statement?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a copy.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: I think what you should do is just put that
13 document aside. If anyone wishes you to look at your statement, a copy
14 will be provided for you.
15 Now, the first counsel this morning to ask you questions will be
16 for the Prosecution, and that's Mr. Hannis.
17 Mr. Hannis.
18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 WITNESS: WITNESS K90
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Examination by Mr. Hannis:
22 Q. And I will begin, Witness K90, by showing you some documents, and
23 we will deal with that first by handing you Exhibit P2631. Sir, this is a
24 document containing personal information about your name and your date of
25 birth. I want you to just look at it and read it to yourself and then
1 tell us if that information is correct, yes or no.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we would tender that pseudonym sheet.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 MR. HANNIS: Yes, and may that be filed under seal as the ordinary
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
9 MR. HANNIS:
10 Q. Next I would like to hand you two documents. Exhibit P2391 is
11 your statement to the ICTY dated December 2002 and P2640 is a redacted
12 version of that where we have blacked out the personal identifying
13 information about you. Could you look first at the unredacted version,
14 P2391, and tell me if you recognise it as your statement.
15 A. Yes. Yes, the one that you and I did not see during our
16 preparation or proofing.
17 Q. Okay. Did you have a chance to -- did you have a chance to review
18 it and make some changes?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't understand that comment, Mr. Hannis, "the
21 one that you and I did not see." What does that mean?
22 MR. HANNIS: Yes, I think I know what that refers to.
23 Q. Witness K90, you said "the one you and I did not see." Are you
24 referring to Exhibit 2640, the one that has the redactions on it, parts of
25 it had been blacked out. Is that the one that you and I did not see at
1 the time of the proofing?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, with regard to the unredacted one, the one that is completely
4 clear, you said you made some changes during the proofing. I want to ask
5 you about those now. At paragraph 28, you indicated that we should change
6 the reference to the 542nd Armoured Mechanised Brigade to the 549th
7 Motorised Brigade. Is that correct?
8 A. That's correct. That's correct.
9 Q. And in paragraph 39, there was a reference to a man who worked in
10 the municipal building. You told us on Friday that that was not correct
11 and should not be in there. Is that right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. With regard to paragraph 41, you were talking about one of your
14 unit's task being to tell people to move out, but you wanted to add it was
15 not your unit's primary task to do that. Is that correct?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. In paragraph 43, it originally read that you did this in most of
18 the villages around Djakovica. You told us that should be changed to read
19 "some of the villages."
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. And in paragraph 52, where you were talking about seeing scores of
22 displaced Albanian civilians walking past your command post, you indicated
23 that that number was more than 500.
24 A. Well, numbers are a relative thing. Now it's a question of
25 bidding. Was it 300? Was it 500? There were a lot of people. The
1 number can be 300; it can be 500. I cannot say with certainty whether it
2 was 300 or 500, but the fact remains that there were a lot of people
4 Q. Should we correct that then, because currently we said it should
5 be changed to more than 500. Are you not comfortable with that?
6 A. Let it be around 500.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'll make a note of that. Now -- and then you
8 told us about some additional incidents that we'll talk about later. But
9 with regard to those changes we've just talked about, having noted those,
10 can you attest now to the Judges that your written statement accurately
11 reflects your declaration or your evidence and it is what you would say
12 today if you were asked those questions again, the same questions about
14 A. Well, let me just find this. There are some imprecisions in this
15 statement; and as we looked at that, we corrected some of them. Let me
16 just find this concerning the relocation of people or the number of
17 persons who got killed at the site and a few other things that you and I
18 discussed on Friday. That is to say, let me just find this. Was it
19 paragraph 41? I think it was. Yes. Paragraph 41 through 45. There are
20 some imprecisions there.
21 Q. Do you want to tell us what those are?
22 A. For example, my unit had the task to order the Albanian villagers
23 to leave their homes. (redacted)
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, may we -- may I intercede at this point.
1 I had a concern regarding identity and naming his direct superiors may
2 lead to his identification. I would like to go into private session and
3 redact that portion where we mention a couple of names.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there any objection to that course of action?
5 Very well, we shall do that.
6 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
24 Q. Witness, I'm sorry I interrupted before. You were telling us
25 about your unit had the task to order villagers to leave their homes, and
1 I think you were saying this was ordered by your commander. What did you
2 want to explain that you say is an imprecision in your statement in
3 paragraphs 41 through 45 about that?
4 A. May I?
5 Q. Please.
6 A. On Friday I said to you, and today I'm going to say to this
7 honourable Trial Chamber, that what is written here is not quite precise;
8 that is to say, that my major never ordered the expulsion of villagers,
9 that is to say, to have them expelled to Albania.
10 The order was always that these people should be directed towards
11 Djakovica and the first villages near Djakovica. For what reason? I
12 cannot go into that. Now, further on, if later on, we, the soldiers on
13 that territory, allow them to go back to their homes and take their
14 personal belongings for themselves and their families, that is, that is
15 not expulsion.
16 Q. Was there anything else?
17 A. I beg your pardon, yes. Yes. The population was not relocated
18 until the cluster bombs started falling. That's what I wanted to say.
19 Q. And do you recall when that was?
20 A. Well, around mid-April, roughly, 1999. No. I cannot recall the
21 exact date, but from mid-April.
22 Q. Was there anything else you wanted to correct or clarify?
23 A. Not in this part. But when you start examining me, then if I have
24 something to raise I will, yes, so that we wouldn't read out the ...
25 Q. Okay. With those clarifications noted, now are you satisfied that
1 your written statement accurately reflects your declaration and is the
2 answers that you would give if asked about those same matters today?
3 A. For the most part, yes, with small corrections, yes.
4 Q. Well, can you think of any other small corrections you want to
5 bring to our attention now?
6 A. Just a second, please. Just a second, please. Yes. Yes,
7 paragraph 61.
8 Q. Yes, sir. What is that?
9 A. I returned to the major and reported what I had seen. He started
10 to swear and was very angry because this was happening. I personally saw
11 at least four groups of men being taken to the compound, and they number
12 from five to over ten men.
13 What is correct is that only the last group had between eight and
14 ten men. It would be one, two, three, so you cannot say exactly that
15 every group numbered ten men. There were smaller groups, and the last one
16 numbered eight to ten men; that is to say, that the last group had eight
17 to ten men.
18 Q. Okay. Anything else?
19 A. Not for the time being; but if there is anything, I will say.
20 Q. All right. Thank you.
21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, in light of that, perhaps I'll move to
22 tender his statement at the end when I've identified whether there are any
23 additional clarifications.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay, Mr. Hannis. Thank you.
25 MR. HANNIS:
1 Q. Witness K90, you tell us in your statement that you initially did
2 your mandatory national service in 1980. At that time what was your
3 military job? Were you an infantry man or what did you do in 1980?
4 A. I was in the border unit, infantry, in fact, infantry. The border
5 control unit.
6 Q. And we read in your statement that you volunteered for the army
7 and you fought in Croatia?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You tell us at that time you didn't receive any training about the
10 Geneva Convention and Rules of War. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And after that you later, in May 1992, became a professional
13 soldier and part of a military police unit. Did you have any training
14 about the Geneva Convention and Rules of War at that time?
15 A. Absolutely.
16 Q. Now, can you explain the difference for me between --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: What does that mean?
18 MR. HANNIS:
19 Q. Could you explain to the Judge what you mean by "absolutely."
20 A. This means that we received training on all international
21 conventions relating to Law of War. This was a serious unit, and it was
22 the kind of unit where you couldn't be without undergoing such training.
23 Q. That leads me to my next question. Can you explain the difference
24 between a volunteer, which you were in Croatia, and a professional
25 soldier, that you were after May 1992.
1 A. Well, there's no comparing the two. I cannot draw any comparisons
2 because the latter was a professional unit where you had the chain of
3 command, the system of issuing orders, subordination was in place;
4 whereas, the former was something completely different. It was also a
5 part of the former Yugoslav military, but there were no officers, no
6 commanding officers, in the field.
7 You had reservists, just as we were. They were in command of
8 those units and that's just not the same. It cannot be the same. There
9 was no discipline, not to the extent that existed in the unit where I
10 served as a professional soldier. So for all intents and purposes, no
11 comparison can be made.
12 Q. And when you were in a volunteer unit, to who -- not a name, but
13 what rank did your commander have, if any?
14 A. I think he was a colonel, but I only saw him twice. I don't think
15 that I would be able to recognise him at all. I don't think that he ever
16 came to this area where we were. He had his command post, and he never
17 left it, at least I didn't see him.
18 Q. Did you have any major or captain or lieutenant who was in the
19 field with your unit that was commanding?
20 A. I think there was a captain, but I can't now recall. I think he
21 was a captain in the reserve force, so I might be able to recall his name
22 if I really put in a lot of effort but I'm not sure.
23 Q. When you were in Kosovo in 1999, did you see any volunteer units
24 in Kosovo?
25 A. Well, it says here 1990.
1 Q. I meant 1999. Did you see any volunteer units in Kosovo?
2 A. Sir, Your Honours, I was in Kosovo as a volunteer; but in the area
3 of responsibility of my battalion, there were other volunteers. None of
4 those volunteers ever, ever was able to operate outside the chain of
5 command and the system of subordination that existed in the army; never,
6 ever, it never happened.
7 Q. Now, in 1992 through 1995, when you were serving as a military
8 policeman, did you see action in Bosnia?
9 A. Unfortunately, yes.
10 Q. Now, you tell us that you left the JNA in 1995; and now going to
11 paragraph 24 of your statement, you tell us you drove a truck and made
12 trips to Kosovo six days a week.
13 A. I have to apologise. You said the JNA. Not the JNA. The Army of
15 Q. You're correct. My mistake.
16 A. And I didn't leave it. My contract expired and I went to another
18 Q. And from 1995 to 1999, when you volunteered, you worked driving a
19 truck to Kosovo six days a week?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. And in the course of that job, did you become familiar with the
22 main roads and bigger towns in Kosovo?
23 A. Well, I know Kosovo very well. I got to know it then. I know it
24 still. All the major towns and also some of the smaller towns there, such
25 as Orahovac, Lipljane, the villages around Prizren, Djakovica, Pristina,
1 Kosovska Mitrovica. So I do know this area very well.
2 Q. Now, in paragraph 57, you tell us about volunteering. When was
3 that or how soon after the NATO bombing began was it when you joined up?
4 A. It says in my statement that when my brother was called up, that I
5 volunteered. But in fact, I went to Kosovo before he was called up. I
6 was in Kosovo on the 27th of March already, which means that I left my
7 place of birth on the 25th.
8 On the 26th, I went to the unit that sent volunteers down to
9 Kosovo. It says -- actually, the towns are specified in the statement.
10 Were you able to find it, or should I perhaps specify the towns? Can I do
11 that in open session or --
12 Q. It's in your statement in paragraph 20, 26, and 27.
13 A. So on the 27th, I was already in Kosovo.
14 Q. And by what date were you actually in uniform and attached to your
15 unit, if you recall?
16 A. I put on the uniform on the 26th, in the afternoon.
17 Q. And you mentioned that the commanding officer of your unit was a
18 major who you've named in private session, and you've also mentioned a
19 lieutenant. In your statement, you tell us that your 10- to 12-man unit
20 was under him.
21 What specifically was your unit? Did it have a name or a title?
22 And maybe we need to mention that in private session?
23 MR. HANNIS: Could we go into private session for a moment --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may say something while we're
25 still in open session. If I may explain something to the Trial Chamber
1 regarding your question about my arrival in Kosovo, or do you -- I don't
2 know. Yeah.
3 MR. HANNIS:
4 Q. Sure, if you want to.
5 A. Yes. I do want, because it's very important. When we got to
6 Kosovo, it was already night-time, in fact, we arrived in Djakovica. At
7 the command post, there were quite a few buses with volunteer, and our
8 battalion commander was there to receive us personally. Since he knew
9 that only the volunteers were on those buses, no regular army, he said the
10 following and I quote verbatim. Can you hear me?
11 "Gentlemen, this is not Kosovo, this is not Bosnia, orders must be
12 complied with. There will be no arbitrary actions. Those who engage in
13 any such acts will be punished very severely." So we all took that very
15 Now we come to your question. What was the criterion they used to
16 pick the ten of us or so? But I think that on the basis of our service in
17 the previous units they picked us. I think that was the criterion that
18 they applied. So this is in answer to your question that you asked.
19 Q. Let me ask you two things. One, you said when the battalion
20 commander greeted you, he said: "Gentlemen, this is not Kosovo, not
21 Bosnia." Did you mean --
22 A. No, I'm sorry. "This is not Croatia, this is not Bosnia."
23 Q. What did you understand that to mean by him saying that this was
24 not Croatia and this was not Bosnia, and that orders must be complied
25 with. Had it been different in Croatia and in Bosnia?
1 A. Well, an experienced officer such as my commander knew quite well
2 that not all of us came to Kosovo with the same kind of intention, and
3 that's why he warned us in this manner. Not all people came to Kosovo to
4 defend it.
5 There were some drug addicts there, for instance, who got there to
6 steal things. There were all kinds of people. This man volunteers and
7 you cannot prohibit him from going because you don't know who that person
8 is, but then he warned us there would be no arbitrary acts and any
9 attempts to do so would be punished severely. The chain of command was to
10 be sacrosanct.
11 Q. Now, can we go into private session for a moment. I want to ask
12 you a question about your particular unit and the men in it.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 9281-9284 redacted. Private session
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
15 If we could show the witness Exhibit P1323.
16 Q. Witness K90, I want to ask you about some insignia. This should
17 come up on the computer screen in front of you. And I don't know if it's
18 easy for you -- easy enough for you to see on the screen or if you would
19 prefer to look at a hard copy, which I can have the usher hand you.
20 A. I can see it. I can see it.
21 Q. Do you recognise any of those insignia on the page; and if so, can
22 you tell us by number which one you're talking about and to what group or
23 unit it referred?
24 A. I assume that the insignia marked as 1 is the insignia of the 63rd
25 Paratroopers Brigade. Number -- second is the military police. The third
1 is the standard Yugoslav Army insignia. 6 and 7 are the police insignia
2 dating from any period, in fact, it's impossible to determine the period.
3 But some of these insignia may have been worn in Kosovo, but I'm sure that
4 4, 3, that these were worn in Kosovo.
5 Q. I don't think you said before what number 4 was, if you know.
6 A. That's the military police.
7 Q. And number 2 I think you said also was military police?
8 A. Yes, number 2 could be the military police. It could also be --
9 well, who knows. I can't really recall. From the 1990s until the year
10 2000 when the Army of Yugoslavia was established, the insignia changed
11 practically every year. Many units wore different insignia, but they were
12 in the same branch, in fact.
13 So you had all kinds of stuff, but these are the typical insignia.
14 Number three is the standard VJ patch, four was military police. I was in
15 the military police, but I don't recall wearing the patch marked as 5. I
16 don't know what period this dates from.
17 Q. In 1999, what patches did you have on your uniform?
18 A. I think we had the Army of Yugoslavia patch marked as 3 and the
19 number 4, and we wore it on a black beret or a black cap. This was the
20 standard-issue uniform, if that is what you mean.
21 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the second page of the exhibit. I
22 suddenly have the transcript up on my e-court page instead of the exhibit.
23 I don't know if it's a technical difficulty or ...
24 Q. Now, can you tell us anything about numbers 8 through 13?
25 A. Well, 8 and 9 I saw in the war in Croatia, but not in Kosovo; I'm
1 sure of that. In fact, I didn't see any of these patches in Kosovo; I'm
2 sure of that. I'm sure because in the area of responsibility of my
3 battalion those patches were not worn. They were only the army patches.
4 Q. What about number 13?
5 A. I don't think that this one was present there, but I can't really
6 see it. It's possible that it was worn, but who knows. Well, if it's a
7 PJP sign, it probably was present there because PJP units were there in
8 the field.
9 MR. HANNIS: Could we now go to Exhibit 1324.
10 Q. Witness K90, next I want to show you a page or two with some
11 weapons on that.
12 A. Yes, fine.
13 Q. Can you recognise those? Going from 1 to 4?
14 A. Well, yes, I can. Number 4 is Hechler. Number 3 is a
15 submachine-gun Skorpion, then we have the 82-millimetre mortar. And the
16 one up there, that's cannon. I don't know the calibre. I wasn't in the
17 artillery, so I can't determine the calibre.
18 Q. What weapon did you --
19 A. Number 1 on the image 1.
20 Q. What kind of weapon did you have as a military policeman?
21 A. I had an automatic rifle, standard-issue automatic rifle.
22 Q. With regard to weapons number 3 and 4, do you know which units
23 used those?
24 A. I know about the Skorpions. They were used by tank units. That
25 is their standard-issue weapon because they cannot carry rifles. Well, as
1 for the Hechler, well, hm, it was people who acted as security officers
2 for high-ranking officers who had them or state VIPs, if they would come
4 I didn't see any such people, but -- well, perhaps these security
5 people wore Hechlers or carried Hechlers. But usually in our country,
6 people who had Hechlers were working in the field of security and then
7 they would go out into the field and they carry Hechlers. As for the
8 Skorpions, it's members of the tank units for sure.
9 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page of this exhibit.
10 Q. Can you tell us about items 1 through 5 on this page, if you
11 recognise any of them.
12 A. Classical infantry weaponry. 5 is an M-84 machine-gun. Number 4
13 is a sniper rifle, semi-automatic; then this is a sub-machine-gun T-3.
14 And these are automatic rifles with different kinds -- well, I cannot
15 guess as far as their numbers are concerned, but at any rate this is
16 classical infantry weaponry. There is nothing special here. It's
17 standard-issue army weaponry.
18 Q. And was yours like any of these?
19 A. Number 1.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. HANNIS: Next I'd like to show the witness Exhibit 1325.
22 Q. Witness K90, next I'll show you some vehicles and ask if you can
23 help us with these. How about numbers 1 to 4, do you recognise any of
24 these and can you tell us who used them?
25 A. Well, I can just guess. Number 1 is an APC. Number 4 is a Praga.
1 As for the rest, well, these are vehicles that we did not use for the most
2 part; my unit didn't.
3 As for number 2, well, I can't see. It looks like a BVP, but it's
4 not. No, actually, it looks like a BOV. It could be a BOV since it has
5 these holes on the side; one, two, three, and then times 2, that would be
6 six. It could be a BOV under number 2.
7 Now, under number 3, who knows, maybe a kind of transporter; APC,
8 1 and 3; and then 4 would be a Praga, and 2 would be a BOV, combat
9 armoured vehicle.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page.
12 Q. How about 5 through 8?
13 A. Well, 8 is a truck, TAM 110 classical military truck for the
14 transportation of equipment and personnel. 7 is a Pinzgauer. Now, 6 can
15 be a T-55 tank, and 5 can be 84. Now, maybe I made a mistake. It depends
16 on which one is which. 5 is a bit lower, so that could be 84 -- well, you
17 know what, I'm not very knowledgeable about tanks.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page.
20 Q. Anything you can tell us about 9 through 12?
21 A. I could tell you about 10. That is a BVP, combat vehicle of the
22 police. As for the rest, I can guess, but it's pointless, isn't it.
23 Q. I don't want you to guess.
24 A. We didn't use that.
25 MR. HANNIS: Can we go to the next page.
1 Q. Did you see any of these being used by any of the forces in Kosovo
2 in 1999?
3 A. 13, if I can see right, is a Puch. That's a vehicle in which
4 officers travelled then and now. Nothing special. As for the other
5 vehicles, I don't know. 15 is a Hummer, as far as I can see, and the
6 other one is a Land Rover, as far as I can see, but we didn't have any
7 such vehicles. We didn't have them and we didn't use them; as for the
8 Puchs, yes.
9 Q. Next I would like to show you Exhibit 1592 and ask you a question
10 about that. Can you -- based on the uniforms and the insignia, can you
11 tell us anything about what unit these two might belong to?
12 A. Your Honours, Your Honours, the picture we see now shows soldiers
13 who I assume had this picture taken for their own personal use. After
14 all -- well, cross-bows. Cross-bows were not carried by members of units
15 who were out in the field every day.
16 Judging by the vehicle they have, it could be either a Pinzgauer
17 or a Puch. Sirens, the bars they have, it could be a Puch, but the
18 uniform is classical military uniform. Now, we cannot see what unit it
19 is. Nothing special.
20 Q. How about Exhibit 1596. This is the next one I want to show you,
21 K90. Can you tell us anything about what unit or what force these men
22 might belong to based on their uniforms?
23 A. Well, judging by what we can see here and judging by the
24 appearance of these people and what they're wearing and their haircuts and
25 their behaviour, well -- but in the background I see something that could
1 be a reserve police unit. But I think -- well, it's pointless to comment
2 on this.
3 Q. You can't tell us anything about what unit they might belong to or
4 what force?
5 A. They belong to the reserve police force.
6 Q. Next --
7 A. I assume, because I don't think that an active-duty officer would
8 allow himself to have men like these under his command. I mean, as for my
9 own criteria regarding the military, this simply doesn't fit in. I mean,
10 things like this -- what is written here on his sleeve? "Police." But
11 the reserve policemen wore the same kind of uniforms like policemen, so
12 it's debatable. But it's certainly not a regular unit.
13 Q. Let me show you next Exhibit P1599.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you move off that photograph, do you
15 know the significance of the ribbons they're wearing? 070129.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For recognition purposes, Your
17 Honour. When they go out on mission in order to distinguish themselves
18 from other men, from other units, or from the enemy or God knows who.
19 That's why they wore these ribbons, but not all of them all the time.
20 The question is where this photograph was taken. I saw things
21 like this in Bosnia, in Croatia, but I see that it says "police" on these
22 uniforms. So let us clear this up. Policemen of Republika Srpska wore
23 similar or almost identical uniforms like our policemen. So it is
24 possible that this photograph was taken in Bosnia. It could easily happen
25 that that was the case, because in Kosovo you could hardly find a forest
1 [Realtime transcript read in error "force"] like this anywhere.
2 MR. HANNIS:
3 Q. Did you see reserve policemen in Kosovo during your time there in
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Just for the sake of clarity, Your Honour, the
7 witness said on the 28, 10, instead of force he said "forest." It's very
8 hard to find a "forest" like this anywhere in Kosovo.
9 MR. HANNIS: I agree that's what I understood.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: And it said "force" in the transcript. Thank you.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: It makes a big difference to the sense. Thank you.
12 MR. HANNIS:
13 Q. K90 --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes --
15 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: K90, one question about an earlier photograph, the
18 one with the two men on the vehicle. We just saw the top of the vehicle.
19 The net masks on the faces, were these standard uniform?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, these
21 photographs, or rather, the photographs that you spoke about just now was
22 taken so that they could showoff to other people, their relatives, their
23 friends, whatever. Because it was just made up so nicely, wasn't it? So
24 it could not have been taken for any other purpose.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 Mr. Hannis.
2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
3 Q. I don't know if you answered my question about -- did you see
4 reserve -- did you see reserve police in Kosovo in 1999?
5 A. I told you, yes.
6 Q. Let me show you next Exhibit P1600. What can you tell us about
7 these men? What force or what unit would they belong to based on the
8 uniforms and insignia?
9 A. I don't know. What a miserable unit. They also got all dressed
10 up here so that they could showoff afterwards to the folks back home what
11 big heroes they were and what they looked like.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak in
13 the microphone, interpreter's note.
14 MR. HANNIS:
15 Q. K90, the interpreters are asking you to be sure to speak into the
16 microphone when you answer. Can you comment on the uniforms and the
17 insignia --
18 A. I do apologise.
19 Q. -- what is this? Which force would these men belong to?
20 A. I cannot say on the basis of the uniforms. See, if you were to
21 look at their caps that is something completely -- well, I don't know.
22 It's not identical, but I said a few moments ago what a miserable unit and
23 the poor unit that they belonged to.
24 Q. Would they be army or army reserve?
25 A. I'm not sure -- well, you know what, let me tell you. When you
1 say the "reserve army," "army reserve," if you think that this context of
2 the army -- I mean, as for the unit I was in, there wasn't much of a
3 difference between active-duty military and reservists. Orders were the
4 same for all and the command was the same for all.
5 It didn't matter whether someone was a reservists or an active
6 soldier. He fully had to respect orders just like an active soldier,
7 regardless of who he was. So if you thought that reservists in my unit --
8 well, they certainly could not have been like this, and to have their
9 pictures taken like this. I mean, I'm not sure I can say -- they have
10 different caps, so I cannot tell. I don't know what it is for sure. Well
11 possibly -- I don't know.
12 Q. Do you recognise --
13 A. Sorry. It is possible that this photograph was not taken in
14 Kosovo either.
15 Q. Why do you say that?
16 A. Well, I'm saying that because have a look at the emblems.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the witness
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Look at what the emblems say.
20 Perhaps if we could read that, we could identify what this is all about;
21 but this way, hardly, hardly. Now, if we look at the emblems that this
22 man has, the one next to the vehicle, these are coats of arms and insignia
23 that the KLA had.
24 So on the basis of that, we can say that this was in Kosovo. But
25 I cannot claim anything because the army did not have vehicles like these
1 with a machine-gun mounted on them as far as I can see. It is certainly
2 not an army vehicle. We did not have vehicles that had been altered this
3 way. We had standard vehicles that had not been altered in any way; we,
4 the army.
5 MR. HANNIS:
6 Q. Who did have vehicles altered that way?
7 A. Well, on some vehicles that are not combat vehicles -- I'm not
8 sure. I think they were Russian made. The police would mount
9 machine-guns on them. Now, whether they did this at their own initiative
10 or whether this was regular practice, I cannot say. But on some of their
11 vehicles, there were machine-guns, like here, like on this vehicle.
12 Now, I don't know -- well, the green -- I don't know. I shouldn't
13 be guessing now. I cannot say whether they are policemen or soldiers.
14 Well, it is not active-duty military, well.
15 Q. Let me ask you one question: Do you recognise the patch on their
16 arms; the red-white-blue patch, for example, on the man on the front row
17 left, do you recognise that insignia?
18 A. I see that. This is why I put this question. If this could be
19 enlarged, then perhaps I could identify who it is; but it is very small,
20 isn't it? It is certainly not military insignia. The army had standard
21 insignia, and we showed that under number 3 a few minutes ago.
22 MR. HANNIS: Could we zoom in on the patch and try to enlarge it
23 for the witness, please.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
25 MR. HANNIS:
1 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let me show you one more. I don't think I
2 showed you Exhibit 1599. One other group of men and I want to ask you if
3 you can tell us anything based on their appearance and their uniforms and
5 A. May I not comment on this photograph, please?
6 Q. Well, can you tell me why you don't want to.
7 A. Well, these people in this photograph that we see now, do they
8 deserve to be commented upon?
9 Q. Well, I understand perhaps your feeling about that, but isn't the
10 patch on the sleeve of that man on the chair on the far right of the
11 photograph, isn't that the one you've identified as being the army patch,
12 the army insignia?
13 A. It is an army patch, army insignia, but this is not the army.
14 Poor would be the commander who would have such soldiers, if they were
15 soldiers at all. The question is where they had this picture taken, too.
16 Q. I take it from your comments you would not consider this a group
17 of professional army members because of their appearance?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Your Honours, in the unit where I served as a professional
20 soldier, even near that unit that I served in in Kosovo, the unit of the
21 major whose name we are not going to mention now. Right. I mean, people
22 like this -- like these did not have access to that unit and could not
23 even be near that unit.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let me show you one more, and then I'll return
25 to your statement to ask you some questions.
1 MR. HANNIS: Could we show the witness Exhibit IC42.
2 Q. K90, next I want to show you some camouflage patterns and ask if
3 you know what uniforms, what units, what forces these particular
4 camouflage patterns might have been worn by in Kosovo in 1999. And if you
5 could just go from upper left to upper right and then lower left to lower
6 right and give us any comment you have on those patterns.
7 A. The first one on the left, that is the uniform that was worn by
8 policemen, but I think it was the reserve police force that wore this. I
9 think this is one of the police uniforms. Up on the right-hand side, I
10 think that this is the uniform that was worn by the PJP because I have a
11 uniform like that at home, the top part and the trousers.
12 I'm not sure, but I think that's it -- actually, I'm sure about
13 that. As for the one down here on the left, I don't know whose uniform
14 this is. I cannot guess because I do not see this clearly at all. And on
15 the right-hand side is a classical military uniform.
16 As for the uniform down here on the left, I'm not sure, I cannot
17 say. And the other one on the right-hand side is classical military
19 Q. Worn by the VJ in Kosovo in 1999?
20 A. Classical military uniform down here on the right, but not
21 everybody. As many as we had -- well, most people had it. The dates
22 varied, but they did have them.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to return to your statement; and in
24 paragraphs 41 to 45, you talk about how your particular unit was involved
25 in some villages telling the villagers to leave. You mentioned that Zub
1 was the first village where you did this, and I think you said that was
2 around mid-April. Do you remember the names of any of the other villages
3 where you did this?
4 A. No, no. But there is this brook between Zub and the neighbouring
5 village, so it's all on the same plain. Viewed from the border, there was
6 this other village that was empty. I don't know when it was emptied.
7 Probably the villagers left the village even before we came there, but
8 those are the first villages near the border. Those are the villages that
9 are closest to the border.
10 Since our command post was in Zub in the house of an Albanian who
11 was in his house; that is to say, the man had not moved out. When we
12 withdrew, they withdrew together with us. In fact, we did not tell them
13 to go anywhere, but they left with us. Not at any moment did we say to
14 them that they should leave the state, the country. Now, what does that
15 mean to relocate someone?
16 If you take his documents away, if you throw him out, and if you
17 tell him he can no longer come back to his house, that is expulsion. But
18 if he leaves with you and then if he can go back to his own house and get
19 his own stuff after a all, that is not expulsion. I don't know, perhaps
20 the Judges can say what is what, but for me that is not expulsion. Why
21 would they stay out there on their own at the mercy of aircraft? That is
22 so illogical.
23 Q. Now, in paragraph 44 you say: "Each time we undertook this
24 tasking ourselves." I wasn't clear on that. I read that. In English it
25 could be understood to mean that you, your unit, on your own decided when
1 and where to do this. Is that what you mean?
2 A. No, no. I explained it to you on Friday. No. When I said "on
3 their own," that is what I meant when I was speaking a few minutes ago;
4 that is to say, that other soldiers did not take part, so that what I
5 spoke of previously would not happen. That is to say, when we're talking
6 about the Albanian people who do not like any kind of mingling with their
7 families, that is it.
8 That is to say, we respected their customs and we carried out
9 their orders that were quite clear. I told you on Friday and I'm telling
10 the honourable Judges now. I don't know how we would have reacted if
11 somebody had protested and said they didn't want to leave. I don't know,
12 perhaps the commander would have to come and tell them, but we didn't have
13 any orders like that. If they didn't want to leave, I don't know.
14 Q. You mentioned in connection with Zub that when you did this you
15 told the villagers they had to leave within two hours. Was it a similar
16 deadline in the other villages where you did this?
17 A. Well, no -- well, two hours -- you know what? When there's a war
18 going on, when there's a war going on, you always have to be mobile, so to
19 speak. Since they had communication with the command, our command in Zub
20 was in the house of an Albanian.
21 Most of them knew that they would be relocated, so this is a
22 deadline -- well, you know, together with us. They withdrew together with
23 us. It wasn't that we had relocated and that they had stayed on or that
24 they left and we stayed on. We left together with them; that is to say
25 the army and the civilians.
1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, is this an appropriate time for the
2 first break?
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before we do that, Mr. Hannis.
4 Could you look, please, K90, at paragraph 30 of the statement
5 where you describe various members of your unit.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Are these what you would consider to be
8 professional soldiers representative of the Yugoslav Army?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I were to exclude
10 the man who had this excess after the war and this one man who fled from
11 Kosovo; as for rest I have no observations because they impeccably carried
12 out the orders given by the commander. Never at any point in time were
13 they tempted to engage an excess to work to the detriment of the country
14 or after an Albanian, if that is what you meant just now. Never.
15 There are men there with a past -- well, more or less perhaps they
16 were just bragging. But anyway they carried out their orders impeccably
17 over there, and I can guarantee that.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 Now we have to break at this stage, and we'll be out of court for
20 about 20 minutes or so. We'll go into closed session while arrangements
21 are made for you to leave the courtroom with the usher.
22 [Closed session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to apologise. I can hear
11 this terrible buzzing, this terrible buzzing in my ears. Yes, now it's
12 much better.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
15 Q. I think that was the sound of the blinds going up, and it should
16 be stopped now. Can you hear all right now? Okay.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Before I went on, I wanted to follow up on the question that Judge
19 Bonomy asked you just before the break. He asked you a question about the
20 men in your unit, and you said with the exception of two; one who fled,
21 and I gather from paragraph 30 of your statement that's the one you
22 describe as getting into his car one day and never returning. Correct?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And the other one you referred to is one who was involved in
25 excess after the war, and I take it by that you mean the one who is
1 currently in prison for murdering a taxi-driver and his father in 2001;
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Now, I was talking about your unit going around in some of the
5 villages and asking the villagers to leave. Did you speak to them in
6 Serbian -- well, first of all, do you speak any Albanian yourself?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Then did you tell them in Serbian that they had to get out within
9 two hours?
10 A. Your Honours, those were not orders. Those were not orders. This
11 was -- I cannot really explain this. I can try. In fact --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just concentrate on the question. What language
13 did you use?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 Mr. Hannis.
19 MR. HANNIS:
20 Q. And did you tell them where they were supposed to go when they
22 A. That they should go towards Djakovica, the villages that were
23 closer to the town, and the town itself.
24 Q. Of the villagers that you had told to leave and go towards
25 Djakovica, did you or your unit later take any of them back to their
1 original villages?
2 A. Not until the end of the war, but they would come back to get the
3 stuff that they needed from their homes. They were allowed to go there if
4 they needed anything, flour. Whatever they had in their homes, they were
5 allowed to go there and fetch it.
6 Q. Related to that, in paragraph 40 -- yes, 45, you say: "After we
7 had ordered a village to leave, within an hour it was like an atom bomb
8 had hit the village. Soldiers were coming through the village and looting
9 everything that was not nailed down."
10 Which soldiers were these? From where did they come, the ones who
11 were doing the looting?
12 A. Now, what I told you on Friday - and I will repeat now in front of
13 this honourable Trial Chamber - no one could carry anything with them.
14 But it happened sometimes that an individual would come by. If it had
15 been a group, we would have seen them and they would have ended up in
16 prison. But individuals would go in and search for things that they
17 needed, but I think that some people that did that were actually drug
18 addicts. They were trying to find things that they needed.
19 And I can guarantee that nobody could or was allowed to take
20 anything with them throughout the war in Kosovo. In my unit, I don't know
21 about the other units, but in the unit where I served, nobody was allowed
22 to touch anything that belonged to somebody else. People that were caught
23 doing that were prosecuted and ended up in prison.
24 Q. Okay. In that paragraph, you go on to say: "They were taking
25 things that they could not imagine they were going to be able to take home
1 to Serbia."
2 What kind of things were you talking about there?
3 A. That's precisely what I wanted to tell you. When I say that it
4 looked as if an atomic bomb had exploded, they didn't take anything with
5 them. They just rummaged through the stuff. They would cut into things
6 looking for the things they needed. I don't know if you see my point.
7 They were looking for the stuff that they needed because they were
8 not able to take anything with them, yet they were rummaging through
9 stuff, turning it upside down. They were looking for stuff, but these
10 were not groups of people. They were individuals that we could not see.
11 Had we been able to see them, they would have gotten what they deserved.
12 Q. Well, that translation reads as though they were taking things --
13 I read that to mean they were taking big things like TVs, refrigerators,
14 things they couldn't carry. Isn't that what that means?
15 A. Do you think that we would not have seen them, that they wouldn't
16 be seen? We cleared up this looting issue, the circumstances in which it
17 took place. And when the time comes, we will explain this to the Trial
19 But if we're talking about this specific event, these events,
20 these were individual incidents that you could only do something about it
21 if you happened to come across this person doing that, and then you were
22 -- would be able to arrest that person.
23 We learned about most of those incidents from the people whose
24 houses had been looted in this way, and I have to tell you it was not nice
25 to sit there and listen to those stories.
1 Q. You say in that paragraph: "There's a lot more that I could say
2 about the looting that went on." Can you tell the Judges what you meant
3 by that. What's the "lot more" that you could tell us about the looting?
4 A. I'm referring here to what happened on the last day, the last day.
5 If you want me to, I can explain to the Judges about this incident.
6 Q. Okay. By "the last day," you mean when the war ended and the VJ
7 forces withdrew from Kosovo?
8 A. At the end when the forces pulled out, yes, that's correct.
9 Q. Well, tell us about that.
10 A. Since our brigade had during the war about 13, 13 and -- 13.000
11 people, maybe 13 and a half approximately, and our battalion - the
12 battalion has about 500 people, that would be the normal strength - but we
13 had 3.000, 2.500 people and there were -- there was a certain number of
14 officers commanding the 500 people. And I assume that with the influx of
15 a greater number of soldiers during the war that there were more officers.
16 If we multiply the number of officers even by 10, we cannot have more than
17 a hundred officers there.
18 On the day of the pull-out, the reservists were mobilised together
19 with their vehicles. No officer -- not because they didn't want to, they
20 couldn't physically do that. They were unable to check what people were
21 taking with them. There was not enough fuel. A huge number of people had
22 to be evacuated. You had to make sure that people didn't do anything
23 inappropriate, and it is impossible to secure this huge mass of people.
24 You could not control whether anyone was looting. There was looting.
25 And on that day, the last day, there was looting because it was
1 impossible to physically check each and every vehicle. They were driving
2 their own vehicles, and we even had some rather unpleasant circumstances
3 and incidents when we got to Serbia. Those people at one point simply
4 fled to their own homes. You could shoot this person and he is adamant.
5 He wants to go home. He wants to go home, this is my car, and he wants to
6 go home. They would just get together, a couple from the same village,
7 the would get on a truck, and they would just leave. It was impossible,
8 physically, to control this whole thing. So this is what happened on the
9 last day.
10 Physically, it was impossible to control these people, to check
11 what they were doing. If we had had our military vehicles, sufficient for
12 the number of people that we actually had, we perhaps have been able to do
13 that. We didn't have enough fuel. We didn't have enough vehicles. You
14 have to drive the people; that was our priorities. So, in fact, you had
15 acquiesce to what was going. It was impossible to control it. It was
16 impossible to prevent these people from doing what they were doing.
17 Q. Let me ask you a question about that. I think it's on page 41,
18 line 22. You say,"On the day of the pull-out, the reservists were
19 mobilised together with their vehicles."
20 Is this a group of reservists who had not yet been mobilised for
21 the conflict, who were mobilised the last day before the war ended to come
22 to Kosovo and help with the pull-out?
23 A. No, no. Sir, Your Honours, when a person has his privately owned
24 truck, when he goes to register the truck, this truck can get its wartime
25 assignment, be part of the reserve, just as a person. And these people
1 would come in with their own vehicles. Sometimes your vehicle would be
2 mobilised; and you, yourself, its owner would not be mobilised.
3 So, for instance, your truck is mobilised and it takes part in the
4 war, but you yourself don't. So it -- you don't have to drive your
5 vehicle. At the beginning of the war, that's how people came in. They
6 did not come on the last day. They were already there, in place.
7 Q. Okay. So these were vehicles and reservists who had previously
8 been mobilised, and they used their private, mobilised vehicles to help
9 with the departure from Kosovo. Is that right?
10 A. No. They were already in Kosovo. There has been a
11 misunderstanding. The vehicles and these people were already there when
12 the war broke out. When the mobilisation was declared, they had to report
13 to the unit where they were assigned. So in simplest terms, that was what
15 Q. Thank you. I think I understand now. In paragraph --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Your leaving --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
18 MR. HANNIS: I'm about to, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: You're leaving this paragraph. Does that mean the
20 witness hasn't said anything about looting at the time people were ordered
21 to leave their villagers?
22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I understood him to say that they heard
23 about it from the villagers, and he was aware that individual soldiers
24 were involved in looting.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: K90, in your statement, which you signed, your
1 initials are on every page and your signature is on the statement, you say
2 that after you had ordered a village to leave, soldiers were coming
3 through the village and looting anything that was not nailed down.
4 Now, you signed that as your statement. What did you mean by
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have already said, Your
7 Honours, the way it is written in the statement, one would assume that
8 this was general practice, that the troops would move through and loot
9 everything. The point is these were individuals that were not under
10 anyone's control.
11 So this was not the general practice in the army. You said that I
12 did sign my statement. There had been some mistakes in the translation,
13 even in the parts of the statement that precede this. I don't know if you
14 get my point; if not, I will try to clarify this some more.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: I certainly don't get your point, and I am going to
16 seek for more clarification.
17 Mr. Hannis, when this statement was signed, what language was it
19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, he signed the English. This was the
20 practice at the time, that it was composed in English and then it was read
21 back to him. At page 12 of the statement, you'll see the interpreter's
22 certification, that she orally translated the above statement from English
23 to Serbian in his presence, who appeared to have heard and understand.
24 And he acknowledged the facts and matters set out as translated by her
25 were true to the best of his knowledge and recollection and signed it and
1 initialed it.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, your statement, K90, gives the impression that
3 as soon as people left their village, the army were through that village
4 taking everything they could lay their hands on from the houses there.
5 It's as clear as day that that's what your statement says.
6 Why did you sign a statement to that effect when you're now trying
7 to claim that that was not the situation?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not quite sure
9 whether this was read back to me. I did sign the statement, but I
10 claim -- where would they take the stuff with them if they -- if they
11 really had taken the stuff?
12 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a very --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is quite illogical.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: That's the very point you make in the statement,
15 that it was illogical. It was just done for the sake of looting. It
16 wasn't done to obtain property; it was done to cause damage in the area,
17 the very point you make in your statement. And now you seem to want to
18 change that.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. What I said is that individuals
20 caused damage; that's true and this is not something that I'm contesting
21 now. But this was not army in general. If you say,"the army," that would
22 imply that there was a huge group of people moving through and looting
24 But there were individuals doing that and this is not something
25 I'm contesting at this point. Because there were errors in translation
1 from Serbian into English in the statement that I was shown when I got
2 here. Yes, please.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. But you have not chosen to change that in the
4 statement prior to coming in here today. So we can assume that you've
5 checked this over and that seemed to you to be accurate when you checked
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did clear this up with the
8 Prosecutor. I told him on Friday, literally, that those were individuals
9 not a large group of people, if we don't take into account the last day.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I also wish to draw your attention to paragraph 30
12 of your written statement where you mention about the composition of the
13 units, and you talked of the variety of people that got into that and the
14 characteristics of people and how they abandoned and how they ran away.
15 But later when photographs were shown to you, you were being
16 hysterical about the faces and about those persons, and you are showing a
17 surprise, as if those persons who were in the photographs shown to you
18 today were persons who could not belong to a unit.
19 Now, how would you reconcile these things, please? And you, I
20 think, parried the question whether they were of the army, despite an
21 insignia was shown to you. How do you reconcile with this, please?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the people you saw in
23 the photographs are not people from my unit; that's the first thing.
24 The second point, as for your question, apart from the man
25 mentioned in the last paragraph of -- last part of paragraph 30,(redacted)
2 (redacted), the rest of them acted quite properly.
3 And the people that you mentioned, the people in the photograph,
4 are not people from my unit.
5 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry to interrupt. He mentioned a particular
6 name, Your Honour, that maybe we should redact.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Hannis. We shall.
8 Witness, the -- you referred to Russians also. What uniforms were
9 they wearing?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same as we did.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: You referred to somebody with long hair. You
12 referred to a murderer. You referred to a deserter. Now, this is a unit
13 you were proud of, is it?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the man with the long
15 hair was not a criminal, at least he did not exhibit any signs of criminal
16 behaviour there. As for this other man, if he was tried, he could have
17 said anything. We didn't have any evidence; but while he was there, he
18 was behaving completely properly at all times except on one occasion.
19 He didn't cause any problems because, otherwise, he would not have
20 been there. So he had to abide by the rules very strictly. After all,
21 the man with the long hair -- I do apologise.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Witness K90, we, as a Bench, are not entirely
24 satisfied that you are doing your best to comply with the solemn
25 undertaking you gave at the beginning to tell the truth, the whole truth,
1 and nothing but the truth. And we warn you now to be very careful about
2 the way in which you're giving evidence to this Trial Chamber.
3 Please reflect carefully on that, and make sure that throughout
4 the rest of your evidence you comply with the undertaking to tell the
5 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 Mr. Hannis.
7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. I want to move now to paragraph 46. Witness K90, you mentioned
9 two occasions where there were NATO bombing that involved civilians on the
10 ground. We talked about one before. I want to ask you about Djakovica.
11 Do you know the circumstances of that one?
12 We've heard evidence about bombing of a convoy near the Bistrazin
13 bridge outside Djakovica. Is that the one you're referring to in your
14 statement, or are you referring to a different one?
15 A. I did have this incident in mind. On that day, I was in Prizren;
16 and on our way back, there were some civilians and there were columns
17 heading in all directions. Some people were going in one way and some
18 people were going in another way. There were troops along the road, I
19 mean military vehicles at that time.
20 Now, I told you that I had heard that there was a military vehicle
21 near the column when the air-strikes had taken place. I think this is
22 what I wrote in -- this is what it says in the statement.
23 Q. You -- who did you hear that from, that there had been a military
24 vehicle near the convoy at the time of the strike?
25 A. I heard from the soldiers. I didn't have any official
1 conversation with any person about that.
2 Q. Thank you. I want to move now to paragraph 47.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, where does that -- or how does that(redacted)
6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we'll have to make a redaction there, if
7 we may.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry.
9 MR. HANNIS: That refers to another incident. He talks about two.
10 The one you've just mentioned is the one involving Korisa, as I understand
12 JUDGE BONOMY: So your question -- I'm sorry. I assumed that that
13 was also the incident involving the Bistrazin bridge, but, sorry, that's
14 at Djakovica, is it?
15 MR. HANNIS: Yes. Bistrazin is a short distance outside of
16 Djakovica I think to the south-east. We had another protected witness, I
17 think it was K72, who testified about that incident as well.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
19 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
20 Q. Now I want to move to paragraph 47 of your statement, Witness K90,
21 and you talk about there had been a killing of five policemen in an ambush
22 in April; and after that, there was a mass deployment of police in the
23 area. You talked about an additional 400 police who arrived in the
24 Djakovica area, and among these were PJP and Frenki's.
25 Can you tell us who the Frenki's were and what kind of uniforms
1 and hats they wore?
2 A. Well, since one of the men in my unit used to be a reserve -- a
3 member of the reserve of that unit, I heard from him that this unit had
4 arrived because they wanted him to re-join the unit. As for the other
5 policemen, they were brought in by bus, a number of buses, maybe about ten
6 buses. Some drove their own private vehicles from all over the place, but
7 that was on the day when the incident took place.
8 They didn't arrive before, but on the day of the incident, and it
9 says here that they arrived on the day when the incident occurred. So
10 they didn't come the day before, but on the day when the incident
11 occurred; and in the light of the fact that there had been some people in
12 the town already --
13 Q. Let me stop you --
14 A. -- there were some police officers there.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Witness, the question was: "Could you tell us who
16 the Frenki's were and what kind of uniforms and hats they wore?" Now,
17 could you please answer that question.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I assume that if you're
19 referring to Mr. Simatovic, that would be the unit for special operations.
20 They wore red berets.
21 MR. HANNIS:
22 Q. And what kind of uniforms did they wear?
23 A. Let me try and remember. No, I can't remember. I really have to
24 apologise. I can't remember.
25 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about paragraph 48. This is -- you talk
1 about your unit was ordered to surround and secure the area around
2 Korenica and Meja. When you say "your unit," do you mean just your unit
3 of ten or 12 men, or do you mean your entire battalion?
4 A. Let me repeat. I told you already. This was not surrounding. We
5 were tasked with blocking a section of the road that I actually drew on a
6 diagram. Between the village and Djakovica, there was a stream there. So
7 it was not the whole battalion, just part of the unit.
8 Some people had come in from the border-posts, some people had
9 already been there, maybe 100, 150 troops, our troops. Now, in the other
10 areas, the other side of the village, and any other places, I didn't go
11 there and that's what I told you.
12 Q. You say: "Once the area was secured that a large number of police
13 were deployed, and they entered villages and randomly fired into homes."
14 Do you know where these police were from?
15 A. No. I don't know where they had come from, but these were the
16 police that arrived on that day on the buses. They went from house to
17 house in the village, and it is correct that they did fire shots on the
19 Q. Did you see any resistance coming from the villages as this was
20 going on?
21 A. No. I didn't see any, because I was not in a position to see it.
22 MR. HANNIS: Could we show the witness Exhibit P326.
23 Q. Witness K90, I want to show you an exhibit that was used with
24 another witness that shows the area. It has some markings on it. I want
25 to ask you what your knowledge is about where you were located at the
2 MR. HANNIS: And if we can enlarge it a little bit for the lower
3 half of that exhibit, and once more, please.
4 Q. Witness, are you able to recognise the area that's depicted on
5 here? We see the town of Djakovica in the lower right-hand corner.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you see where the villages of Meja and Korenica are listed on
8 there? It's -- Korenica is partially obscured by one of the lines drawn,
9 but do you recognise that area as depicted on this map?
10 A. These are the villages near Djakovica. Well, I see the village of
11 Meja, and I see where this line is for the village of Korenica. So it's
12 the road to Junik. That is where part of my battalion was deployed, on
13 the road itself and in part of the brook leading to Djakovica.
14 Q. And do you also see the village of Brekovac?
15 A. Brekovac, yes.
16 Q. Now, you mentioned a crossroads in connection with your evidence.
17 Is that crossroads depicted on this map, or were you talking about some
18 smaller road that doesn't appear here?
19 A. I cannot see the road forking off from the main road to Junik,
20 going uphill on the right to a hamlet, a hamlet of the village of
21 Korenica. That road cannot be seen, but -- just a moment, please. I
22 think that that little road, yet another little road that leads to Meja
23 near the river, you can't see that either.
24 Well, maybe one can see it, but then I just cannot see it. There
25 is the river and then next to the river there is a village and a mill and
1 these big houses lined up.
2 Q. Would you be able to indicate on this map approximately where you
3 were located, or is it too hard to see? Because if you can, we have a pen
4 that you can use to mark on that map with, but let me know whether you
5 think you're able to do it or not?
6 A. I'll try.
7 Q. And if you can just put a number 1 and draw a circle around it.
8 A. If this is the village of Meja.
9 Q. I see you've drawn a circle at the bottom of the arrow under the
10 heading "check-points."
11 A. The check-point was here at the bridge between Brekovac and
12 Djakovica; here, right here.
13 Q. I see you've drawn a circle on the red arrow that goes into the
14 south-west corner of Djakovica to indicate the check-point. Now, based on
15 that can you give us an approximate location of where you --
16 A. Village of Brekovac, if I can see right. Between the village of
17 Brekovac and Djakovica, that's where the check-point was.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. HANNIS: May we give that an IC number?
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before we do, can you help me, Mr. Hannis, to
21 understand how this ties in with the reference to securing the area around
22 the villages of Korenica and Meja.
23 MR. HANNIS: Yes. Your Honour, I think when he gave his answer to
24 that he said -- he indicated that his particular unit was involved in
25 setting up blockade related to the area.
1 Q. Is that correct, witness? Were you securing the area or
2 blockading one exit from the area?
3 A. No, it's just a road. One side of the road towards Junik, and
4 part of the brook that goes uphill. On this map you cannot see that part.
5 On the left-hand side, it is the hamlet of Brekovac and on the right-hand
6 side is the hill and then the town of Djakovica, or rather, the
7 neighbourhood of Cabrat; that's the way it is supposed to be.
8 This is what I can visualise right now, even from this distance,
9 where things were. On this map -- well, that road is not there going next
10 to the hamlet of -- well, not Brekovac, Korenica. So that's how I could
11 show you where the brook is because there's this little valley there, too.
12 If you can find it on the map somewhere.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: This started off, Mr. Hannis, with a reference to a
14 crossroads in the evidence. Now, where is the reference to the
16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the reference to the crossroads is in
17 paragraph -- I'm sorry, Your Honour. I've lost it. Paragraph --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Was it 50 --
19 MR. HANNIS: Paragraph 54 makes one reference to it and paragraph
20 51 makes a reference to it regarding the location of his command post
21 vis-a-vis the crossroads.
22 Q. Witness, is --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on a second.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I explain. Perhaps
25 it's going to be easier for you to understand if I explain.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Hannis, where is the diagram?
2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: I've got it now.
4 MR. HANNIS: -- it's attached to his statement.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, the question doesn't give me the
6 information that I need to try to focus on what the issue is here. It's a
7 bit disjointed, if I may say so, the way in which this is being presented.
8 And if we look at this diagram, do we not get a clearer idea of
9 the areas we're talking about? Why are we using something different when
10 he's prepared his own diagram?
11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I was trying to use this map because
12 it -- it shows a broader area that is pertinent to something that I want
13 to argue from about his evidence. And perhaps the map in the Kosovo
14 atlas, Exhibit P615, at page 22, which shows Djakovica, Meja, and
15 Brekovac, may be helpful to us if we can bring that up for the witness.
16 Unfortunately, the page break in the Kosovo atlas leaves Korenica on the
17 preceding page.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, have we done a screen shot of what's
19 there now? If not, I'd like to have that done.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Let's do that first of all.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC117, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 MR. HANNIS: Now, if we could --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: We've moved away from blockades such that it might
25 be of Korenica, is that right, and we're on to another subject?
1 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: We're not.
3 MR. HANNIS: I wanted to show him a map -- a another map and see
4 if he can indicate on that map where he was located.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
6 MR. HANNIS: And this would be Exhibit P615, the Kosovo atlas. I
7 see that it's on the screen. Now -- I'm sorry, we need page 22. Yes.
8 And if we can zoom in on Korenica, and the south-west side of --
9 south-west side of Djakovica, I'm sorry. And enlarge that. The square
10 with Djakovica in it would be the best centring point. And one more,
12 Q. Witness, can you see that now? It shows Brekovac and Meja and the
13 river and Djakovica. Are you able to orientate yourself on that map?
14 A. Just a moment, please. Let me see. I see where Djakovica is. I
15 see where Brekovac is.
16 Q. Can you see Meja above that?
17 A. I see Meja. That road -- well, there's this road here towards
18 Korenica, and that area - it's an asphalt road - and that's where the
19 crossroads is that causes confusion.
20 So there is this dirt road going to the village, it's not an
21 asphalt road, and that's why it is causing this confusion. That's the
22 crossroads, and it's not marked on this map. And Meja is not on the same
23 road, sir. Meja is by the river, and Korenica is on the road.
24 Q. May we then show you your diagram, which is a part of your
25 statement, and I believe it's page --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- page 18. Do you recognise that?
3 A. I don't see a picture here. Oh, the sketch that I drew?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. No, it's not here.
6 Q. Okay. Do you --
7 A. I don't see it.
8 Q. Okay. It's in Exhibit 2391, page 18.
9 Do you have a copy of your --
10 MR. HANNIS: May I hand the witness a hard copy.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 MR. HANNIS:
13 Q. And while we're trying to get that up on e-court, what is that a
14 diagram of?
15 A. On this diagram, we see the road leading towards the village of
16 Korenica and through Korenica. That is this main line in the middle. The
17 line on the left of the diagram where it says the village of Meja, Selo
18 Meja, that is also a road, that is not an asphalt road, that is behind the
19 bridge for the village of Meja; and then there is this arrow where it says
20 A. That is the road that causes confusion. That is a dirt road, not an
21 asphalt road, that goes uphill to one of the hamlets of the village of
23 Q. And is that the crossroads you're referring to in your statement?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And your command post was located where on this diagram?
1 A. Where it says VJ, 80 to 100 metres. As I said here, that is
2 roughly the distance to the crossroads, between the crossroads and us,
3 that is. So it is in that area somewhere. Soldiers who were in the
4 blockade, our blockade, were -- can I somehow show you this on the diagram
5 where they were? Somehow, can I circle it or something?
6 Q. Yes. You can use the pen to mark on the screen, if you'll explain
7 to us what you're doing as you do it, please.
8 A. I'm marking the place where the blockade was, from here to
9 somewhere around here before you enter the village. And here there is
10 this small, very small village road leading also to the village of Meja.
11 Over here there's a brook, here in this area, here. And that is where
12 there were perhaps ten or 15 men in that area.
13 Q. Let me slow you down because it's hard to follow. First of all,
14 you drew two lines to show where the blockade was. Can you draw a line
15 connecting those two small lines to show the area of the blockade.
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, you've drawn a line connecting those, which seems
18 to run parallel to the road toward Korenica. Is that correct?
19 A. To the road, the left side of the road.
20 Q. And what was the purpose of the blockade?
21 A. Well, that if, as they have put it, if possibly members of the KLA
22 were to come from the forest here, the forest is right here, through these
23 fields, if they crossed the river, and if they moved towards Albania, that
24 we possibly stop them in that situation. That's where the forest is,
1 Q. Okay. You've indicated with a series of dots and dashes on the
2 upper right-hand portion of the drawing the area that you say is where the
3 forest is located. Now, you started to draw a line at the top of the
4 blockade area to the left you indicate -- is that a dirt road leading to
5 Meja? Is that what that line is?
6 A. Well, it's not a -- well, perhaps you can drive a car along part
7 of it, but it's more of a footpath. It's a footpath through a field. I
8 don't think a car can get through; but perhaps in part of it, say from
9 these houses here, here, in this area, perhaps you could take a car here,
10 but not in this area out here, not in this area here. But there is where
11 people can get through.
12 Q. Okay.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, this I think is putting Meja in a different
14 place from where it appears in the Kosovo atlas, and it may be that an
15 earlier witness identified this as a problem. I certainly have something
16 in mind about the atlas being said to be inaccurate.
17 MR. HANNIS: I believe I recall that as well, Your Honour. There
18 was some discussion about which side of a particular location Meja was on.
19 Q. Witness, on this diagram, can you tell us which direction would be
20 north, if you know.
21 A. No. But I know for sure that the village of Meja, the houses of
22 the village of Meja, are right on the river here, on the river itself.
23 There's the mill here and then part of the hamlet and then the second part
24 and the third part, and that's how the houses in Meja go. But I think
25 this is Korenica, this, and there's no doubt about that. That's what we
1 thought. And the first houses I marked are the village of Meja. At least
2 that's the way I knew it there.
3 Q. And Meja is marked on your diagram in the upper left-hand corner
4 with a series of small boxes; correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And you say the river ran through that -- through that village?
7 A. No, next to it, on the left side of the village. The village is
8 on the right-hand side and the river is on the left side, behind the
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Does the line you've drawn from the top of the page
11 alongside these houses that you've marked as Meja, does that represent a
12 road or a river?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please, Your Honour.
14 Well, possibly -- well, it can be the road, but then the river also runs
15 along the parallel line. Look at the bridge. I drew it here, and the
16 village is -- and the river is right behind the village here, through Meja
17 and Brekovac, between them; and then the graveyard is somewhere around
18 here and then the village continues on the other side, Brekovac up to Deva
19 and the Deva mine. Now --
20 MR. HANNIS:
21 Q. All right. You've just drawn a red line that runs roughly
22 parallel to the road from Meja to the first most or bridge, as you've
23 marked it on your diagram. That represents the river. Is that correct?
24 A. The river.
25 Q. And a little square you drew to the left of the river below Meja,
1 is that the cemetery I think you said?
2 A. Cemetery, yes, graveyard, in the village of Brekovac.
3 Q. And on this diagram at the bottom, there's another most, or
4 bridge, I take it. Is the line between the two most, is that a river or
5 is that a road or does it represent both?
6 A. A road, a road, a road, just a road. As for the river, it's
7 somewhere around here, and there's this curve -- well, I didn't go on that
8 side, so I don't know. But I think it moves on from here further on,
9 because I know that there is this curve; and then on the other side, there
10 is a bridge again, on this side. So -- well, roughly, it's that part. I
11 know that because there is this hill here. Now, this is the hill.
12 Q. Okay. You've drawn a slight ellipse in the lower right-hand
13 corner to represent a hill, and before that you drew a continuation of the
14 river between the first bridge and the second bridge; correct?
15 A. Yes, yes. Yes, roughly, that's the way it is.
16 Q. Now, before we leave this one, let me ask you two questions. The
17 crossroads where you saw the policemen taking men out of the line of
18 villagers leaving the area, is that on this map; and if so, could you put
19 an X where it's located?
20 A. It can be seen on the map. It's here.
21 Q. And can you tell us from which direction were the Albanian
22 civilians coming that you saw walking past your command post? You don't
23 need to make a mark, if you can just describe in words for us where they
24 were coming from.
25 A. They were coming from the area where it says "Korenica" towards
1 this crossroads.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. HANNIS: Could we give this the next IC number and take a
4 screen shot, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know what
7 Mr. Hannis wanted, but for us this is totally unclear, unusable. And I
8 suggest that we show him part of the transcript tomorrow and that then he
9 shows us on the map what part the witness was referring to.
10 I mean, this does not have any numbers or any markings, and I
11 don't think that it's going to lead us to a relevant conclusion for all of
12 us. So I really don't know how to get out of this problem, but it is way
13 to complicated and it does not correspond to what the transcript says.
14 And after all, certain symbols are repeated several times for certain
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it's not the most elegant map I've ever
18 had drawn, but I think in the end we were able to get sufficient
19 description of what things were and where they were to be able to follow
20 it from reading the transcript. I think the argument goes to weight.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I agree with Mr. Visnjic's general comments
22 about the confusion, but the basic points seem to be clear. The route
23 from Korenica to the check-point is clear on the map. The location where
24 this witness says Meja was is clear on the map. These are the most
25 important elements for the presentation of the Prosecution case.
1 The matter is open for cross-examination later, and, indeed, you
2 can start afresh and have another one done, Mr. Visnjic. And, indeed, I'm
3 happy, if you wish to invite the witness because I'm going to invite him
4 to do something else as well overnight, but I'm happy to invite him to
5 draw a further diagram for presentation in the course of your case when
6 you come to cross-examine.
7 Mr. Hannis.
8 MR. HANNIS: So then I take it may be given a number?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
10 MR. HANNIS: And I see the witness wanted to say something, and
11 I'll ask him to do that once we have the number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC118, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
15 Q. Witness K90, was there something else you wanted to say about
17 A. Yes. Your Honour, I may make a mistake in drawing these lines or
18 perhaps I cannot say exactly where the river is or where exactly which
19 hamlet is belonging to this village, but I cannot make a mistake in terms
20 of the place where this event occurred and the direction in which people
21 were moving. And I cannot make a mistake in terms of where the army was.
22 I cannot make a mistake in terms of where my command post was, and I --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: These are matters for us to deal with, not for you
24 to comment on.
25 Mr. Hannis will ask you the next question he wants to ask you.
1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
2 Q. Witness, how long were you out at this location? Was it just
3 several hours or more than a day? How long were you out there?
4 A. We came around 5.00 in the morning and returned -- well, it could
5 have been 11.00 or 12.00. After that, a few days later, we went to the
6 same area again and then I went yet another time, the following day, I
7 came to that area. So in fact, it was three times. And once when we went
8 to Junik, it could have been, say, about 15 days later, we took the same
9 road again.
10 So that was probably the fourth time that I was there in that
11 area; however, I have to say that from the river on, there is this flat
12 land. I went to the Deva border post several times. That can be seen
13 on -- well, the site, the place where this occurred, and the road can be
14 seen. So I could not have made a mistake about that.
15 Q. Let me interrupt you there, though. Which of these occasions that
16 you were out there was the one where you saw the civilians taken out and
17 taken to a house and shot? Was it the first? Second? Third occasion?
18 Which time?
19 A. Well, the shooting started -- well, in the village in front of us
20 there was shooting all over, but then when the shooting started behind us,
21 near the command post --
22 Q. My question is: Which of the three or four occasions you told us
23 you were at this location was it when the shooting happened? Was it the
24 first day you were out there? The second time you were out there?
25 A. The first day. If I understood your question right, the first day
1 when the blockade took place. That was roughly the 27th. I'm not sure
2 whether it was the 27th or the 28th of April. I cannot remember the exact
3 date. I think that's when it was.
4 Q. Now, was this the day -- you tell us in your statement about one
5 of your unit, one of the men in your unit being --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- shot and wounded. Was that the day that this happened?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, how long did you see civilians coming down the
10 road by your command post during that day? Was it the entire time you
11 were out there or only for an hour or two or what?
12 A. Almost all the time. The last group that I referred to in my
13 statement came when the commander had already gone to the hospital to see
14 what had happened with those men. So the blockade was already over. So
15 it was practically a constant thing, that they were coming, that is; group
16 by group, group after group, and that's the way it was, sometimes more,
17 sometimes less.
18 But the last group was between eight and ten men, and they came
19 only after the commander had gone to the hospital, or to put it more
20 correctly -- well, no. The hospital, yes.
21 Q. In paragraph 54, you mention about a group of about 30 policemen
22 at the crossroads. And I think you told us before these were the
23 policemen who had arrived before. These were the PJP. Is that correct?
24 A. I think -- in fact, I'm sure that they were.
25 Q. You describe how they were taking some men out from the civilian
1 who were leaving that way. Did you see -- was -- could you discern any
2 system or logic in how they were choosing the men to take out?
3 A. Interestingly enough, I could not get the criterion they used to
4 separate these people. I don't know why they did it. They did not put
5 them to some test to verify whether such and such a person was a KLA
6 fighter. I simply could not make any conclusions as to what was the basis
7 for what they were doing.
8 Q. In paragraphs 55 through 60 of your statement, you describe seeing
9 how some of the separated men were taken away, you heard gun-fire, and you
10 went over and saw bodies. And you tell us that your major told you to go
11 see what was happening.
12 What did you say to the policeman you contacted when you complied
13 with your major's directive to find out what was going on? What did you
14 say to him?
15 A. That the major was asking what was going on.
16 Q. And what did the policeman reply?
17 A. He was quite angry, and he said: "We're destroying the Siptars."
18 Now, I clarified to you what this means. Let me clarify this to the
19 Court. In fact, what he said was: "We're skinning the Siptars." That's
20 what it means, and that's how it was translated into English. But it can
21 mean something else. It can refer to something else, because this word
22 "derati" does not really have to mean that you have your knife out and
23 that you're actually killing this person with your knife.
24 Q. In your statement, it was translated as "slaughtering Siptars."
25 Do you want to correct that now and say it should read "skinning"?
1 A. Well, on Friday we went over this. The interpreter explained to
2 you what I meant when I said that this was his reply. The police officer
3 could have said: "We're combing the Siptars," and that would mean that
4 they were fixing their hair. Do you see what I mean?
5 But what they meant was precisely what they were doing. They
6 killed them, but they didn't really skin them. Do I make myself clear?
7 Q. Thank you. When you went back and told your commander about what
8 you had seen, did he go and talk to the police?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know if he called or radioed anybody or reported about it
11 to anyone?
12 A. No. Radio equipment was not used very often because of the
13 air-strikes, so no, not at that time; perhaps later or perhaps I just
14 didn't see it.
15 Q. In paragraph 62, you mention how one of the guys in your unit was
16 wounded and that the major was angry because he thought that the police
17 had done it. You say you knew there was no KLA in the area then. How did
18 you know that, that there weren't any KLA in the area?
19 A. Well, we knew because there was no fire from the Albanian side.
20 So if you're clearing up a village, you're expelling these people, and you
21 have no fire being opened at you, no police officers were wounded or
22 killed, only the people in the blockade were killed.
23 So it's quite logical. This means that there was nobody there to
24 shoot at you; that's the only logical explanation.
25 Q. Were any of you guys, any of you VJ guys, doing any shooting at
1 the time?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Now, we've heard some testimony from other witnesses that the KLA
4 typically used a different kind of weapon -- a different kind of
5 ammunition that made a different sound than the firing from VJ and police
7 A. I didn't hear about that. The troops did not fire. No soldier
8 fired. There would have been response if they had. As for the
9 circumstances of the wounded -- wounding of this soldier, he didn't see
10 where the round was fired. And the other two that were wounded were
11 standing there at the crossroads between Meja and Korenica and that's
12 where they were hit. (redacted)
13 he was hit. I can't imagine -- it may have been a stray bullet.
14 Q. I'm sorry.
15 MR. HANNIS: We'll need to make a redaction there of a name, Your
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I apologise.
18 MR. HANNIS:
19 Q. It's all right. I've done it before myself, Witness K90?
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Well, just one second. Yes.
21 MR. HANNIS: It's in line 3, page 68.
22 Q. You mention two others being injured. Were these two other
23 soldiers from the 549th Brigade that were wounded?
24 A. Yes, from our battalion. They were stationed at the Deva border
1 I have to apologise. Can I have a five-minute break, please.
2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the witness is requesting a break.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we're not so very far from our normal break,
4 so what we'll do is break earlier than we would otherwise have done.
5 So can we go into closed session quickly, please.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Some of the blinds have not been activated.
8 [Closed session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Witness K90, you mentioned one of your colleagues was shot on that
22 day; and in paragraph 63, you say your major ordered you to travel with
23 the ambulance and try and find out what had happened. You say on the
24 way -- by the way, where did the ambulance take your wounded comrade?
25 Where was the hospital?
1 A. All three of them were taken to the outpatient unit in Djakovica
2 and then to Pristina, with our ambulance to Djakovica and then they were
3 taken to Pristina in I guess the ambulance that would -- that belonged
4 either to that outpatient unit there or the hospital, I don't know.
5 Q. Did you go to Pristina or did you just go to Djakovica?
6 A. No. No, just to Djakovica.
7 Q. And there did you talk to the soldiers and try to find out how
8 they had been wounded?
9 A. (redacted)I'm sorry.
10 MR. HANNIS: We'll have to redact that name. Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
12 MR. HANNIS:
13 Q. You didn't talk to the one man from your unit because he'd already
14 gone. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes. I went to get the other two so I spoke to them, and I spoke
16 to some people who helped me get them into the ambulance.
17 Q. And what did you learn based on those conversations?
18 A. I learned that they had been wounded, that they assumed that they
19 had been wounded by stray bullets fired by the police, that was their
20 assumption, because there was nobody else to fire on them. They were
21 there standing on the road between Meja and Korenica, the road that I
22 indicated on the map a little while ago.
23 There's a road there and they were standing there, and that's
24 where they were hit. One of them was hit in the back, and one of them had
25 a through-and-through wound in the thigh.
1 Q. You say, in paragraph 63, that on your way you saw some bodies on
2 the side of the road near the entrance to Korenica, and at least one of
3 them was a woman. How were these four bodies dressed? Were these
4 soldiers? KLA? Civilians? What? Based on the clothes.
5 A. No, no, no. No, that was not on the road or on the route. You
6 can see the houses drawn here right on this sketch here, that's the
7 building here. I don't know if you can see it.
8 Q. You're referring to your diagram, yes.
9 A. Yes. You can see the house here, that is why it was drawn in
10 here. Those were civilians. They were not in uniform. I don't recall
11 exactly what they had on. They were maybe 50 or 30 metres away from me,
12 maybe even less, some 30 metres.
13 Q. Were you able to see any injuries on the bodies?
14 A. No, because I didn't approach them.
15 Q. Now, in the next paragraph, 64, you told us you came back and
16 reported to your major. What did he say about the report or the
17 suggestion that your men had been wounded by fire from the police?
18 A. Well, he was visibly angry, first of all, because of the events
19 there at the crossroads and the wounding of our men. He was visibly
20 upset. He was swearing, and that's when he ordered me to go there and to
21 take the people who lived -- who were in that -- those villages up there
22 by the river Meja and so on, to take them to Djakovica with another
23 soldier. They were already ready, and I took them to Djakovica, as I
24 described in my statement.
25 Q. Was it just two of you, yourself and one other soldier, who
1 escorted those villagers?
2 A. Yes, just the two of us.
3 Q. And did you pick them up in the village of Meja that's shown on
4 your diagram?
5 A. Yes. They were on the road in the village. The whole column had
6 already been set up. They had already been ready to go. There were no
7 police, no army there. There were no police, no military there. But once
8 these people there realised that there was shooting going on, they got
9 ready to go.
10 At first they didn't even know what was happening. When they saw
11 that we did not have any bad intentions, they saw that there were just the
12 two of us, that we couldn't harm them in any way. So when they saw that
13 there were no bad intentions on our part, they followed us. We took them
14 to the bridge at Djakovica, and then we let them enter the town; in fact,
15 we didn't let them, but we asked the people there to let them through into
16 the town.
17 Q. I think you said before that you don't speak any Albanian. How
18 did you and the other soldier communicate with these people, with these
19 civilians? Did you speak Serbian and they understood you?
20 A. 95 percent of the Albanian men speak Serbian, perhaps even more
21 than -- it could be that the younger generations don't; but those who were
22 above the age of 25, they certainly do speak Serbian.
23 Q. And did you have a conversation with any people in this group
24 about who you were and what you were there for and what you were going to
1 A. We discussed all kinds of things. We had to rest because there
2 was some old people there who couldn't walk that fast, so we had to take
3 rest regularly along the route. But there was no mistreatment, no mention
4 was made of that. We simply said something along the lines of: This
5 really shouldn't be happening. Nothing official.
6 It was the kind of conversation one would have with a person one
7 knows very well, despite the fact we didn't actually know them. We didn't
8 discuss the situation what was happening at the time, neither they nor us.
9 Q. Were there -- you mentioned there were old people in your group.
10 Were there women and children as well?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How about any --
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. -- any military-aged men in the group?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And how long a distance did you have to travel to go from the
17 village to the bridge where you eventually took them?
18 A. Almost two kilometres, maybe even more. Let me think a little
19 bit. About two kilometres, perhaps a little bit more, perhaps a little
20 bit less. You had to pass through the village of Brekovac, so it may be a
21 little more than two kilometres.
22 Q. From your diagram, it looks to me as though you did -- well, let
23 me ask you. Did you have to go by or through the place where those 30
24 police you had seen earlier were calling out and killing some of the men,
25 did you have to go through that point?
1 A. On the sketch that you showed me, I drew in a small footpath here
2 or a very small road here. There's another road here, but the main road
3 from the village goes like this. We didn't take this road here. We went
4 straight to Djakovica, so we didn't go past the crossroads.
5 Q. And when you got -- when you got to the, I guess, bridge outside
6 Djakovica and turned the people over, who was at the bridge there? Was
7 that police or was that VJ or both?
8 A. We didn't hand over anyone to anyone. I took them as far as the
9 bridge and there was a check-point there. The check-point was manned by
10 the military police and some reserve police. In fact, there was an
11 active-duty policeman and a couple of reservists -- reserve police
13 I don't know how many of them. They asked me: "Where are these
14 people going?" (redacted) order that
15 these people should go into Djakovica and that's how it was. There were
16 no problems whatsoever.
17 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, we'll have to make another
18 redaction there of a name. Thank you.
19 Q. Witness, you say you were driven back to the crossroad near your
20 command post. Who took you back?
21 A. I think it was a policeman. I'm not sure, but I think it was a
22 policeman; and not just me, but also the soldier that was with me.
23 Q. When you got back I think you say you saw another group of
24 civilian men taken out and taken into the building and shot. How many men
25 in that group?
2 (redacted) He had already left the command post, and the
3 blockade was already lifting; and then this group of people, eight to ten
4 people, they were part of this larger group which was -- which I mentioned
5 in paragraph 61. I said that there were eight to ten people, just men,
6 only men, aged between 23, 24, and maybe 30.
7 I don't know where they had come from. They passed by our command
8 post and reached the crossroads. That's all I know. And we heard when
9 they were ordered to sing songs, and they took them to the little house in
10 the yard. From the place where we were to the house -- the little house,
11 there is nothing impeding the line, nothing in the line of vision, nothing
12 to prevent us from seeing them enter the yard.
13 Q. Thank you. And in paragraph 66, you mention that the police
14 burned the houses where the men had been shot during the day. Did you
15 actually see them set those houses on fire?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Was there anybody else in that area, other than the police?
18 A. At that place where that happened, no.
19 Q. Now, I want to go to your supplemental information. If I could
20 have the usher hand you a copy. In paragraph 67, you say you knew about
21 some other incidents that happened when you were in Kosovo. And on Friday
22 you gave us additional information, and I think there -- under item number
23 8, items (a), (b), (c), and (d) about some other events that you knew
24 about. I want to go into private session for a minute to ask you about
25 one of them, if I may.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that to protect the security of the witness, or
2 is it for some other reason?
3 MR. HANNIS: Both I think, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the other reason?
5 MR. HANNIS: The other reason relates to the identity of the two
6 VJ soldiers he knows.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. We will go into private session.
8 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I don't have any more questions for
12 this witness. I do have some documents I wanted to tender in relation to
13 his testimony; but because three of those documents have the name of an
14 individual that we've been talking about in private session, I would like
15 to tender those under seal.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Before we do that, the supplemental information
17 doesn't -- isn't an exhibit, so what is it you're expecting us to make of
18 paragraph 8? You've asked some questions about (b), which are probably
19 adequate because of what else you said to amount to some evidence. (C) is
20 clearly something you would never be leading anyway.
21 MR. HANNIS: Correct.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: So (a) and (d) are not part of the case at the
23 moment as I read it?
24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, you're right. I either need to ask him
25 about that or tender the supplemental information. I think in light of
1 some of the discussions we had earlier, I would like to give that an
2 exhibit number and tender that.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think we would be happy about that,
4 Mr. Hannis. Either you're going ask questions about this or you're going
5 to depart from it. So I think that's the choice that you have.
6 MR. HANNIS: All right, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. K90, I want to ask you about item number (d) in that
8 supplemental information under number 8. It says: "Two civilians were
9 murdered by two VJ soldiers outside Djakovica during the conflict." And
10 you know that an officer named Mancic was prosecuted. You say here you
11 know that he is no longer in prison. Do you know when he was released?
12 A. I don't know when he was released. I did see him some 20 days
13 ago, not more than that. So he's not in prison anymore.
14 Q. Do you think what his rank was at the time of the alleged crimes
15 for which he was charged?
16 A. I think he was a major. I think that now he's a
17 lieutenant-colonel, as far as I know.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions about that, Your Honour.
20 I'll make some connection to that with regard to another document I want
21 to tender.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, in that regard, I propose to offer
24 Exhibit 2567, 2568, and 2569. I would like to offer those and have those
25 filed under seal. And if we need to go into private session to discuss
1 their relevance and authenticity, I'm willing to do that right now if
2 that's convenient.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 9344-9345 redacted. Private session
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: We, Mr. Hannis.
7 MR. HANNIS: And the last document, Your Honour, P962. This was a
8 document that was brought in by General Delic; and while I have some
9 reservations about some of those documents, in this case, this is a list
10 of filed criminal reports against perpetrators in the 549th Motorised
11 Brigade between May 1998 and July 1999.
12 I bring to the Court's attention item number 103, which refers to
13 Major Mancic as being prosecuted for war crimes against civilians and
14 receiving a prison sentence of seven years, later changed to 14 years on
15 the prosecution's appeal, to connect with this witness's evidence about
16 what happened to Major Mancic; and part of our argument that we'll make
17 about either lack of punishment or something less than full punishment.
18 And there is one other entry that refers to some of this witness's
19 evidence regarding Major Radic, that's item number 124 on the list. He
20 was referred to in the witness's statement as being involved in theft, and
21 this shows that he was prosecuted for Article 174, which appears to be
22 vehicle theft, and released in 2003. So some corroboration on this
23 witness's evidence, relates to our eventual argument about the degree and
24 nature of punishment.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: And the item number relating to Mancic?
1 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I -- 103.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Any Defence counsel have any comment to make on
3 this document?
4 Very well, we'll admit these two parts; that's items 103 and 124.
5 Mr. Ackerman.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, now I do.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: You wish the whole document?
8 MR. ACKERMAN: I do.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, what do you have to say to that?
10 MR. HANNIS: No objection.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We'll admit the whole document.
12 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions for this witness now,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you've still to decide what to do with the
15 statement, I think.
16 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, yes, I --
17 Q. Witness, do you now feel you've had an opportunity to clarify any
18 matters in your statement that you felt weren't accurately represented in
19 the written statement? Is there anything else that we haven't talked
20 about that you feel needs to be explained or clarified?
21 A. Let me just tell you, Your Honour, that it was not my intention to
22 protect anyone who committed any crimes. Your Honour, at the time when we
23 were in Kosovo, the people that you warned me about, they were acting in a
24 proper manner, and that is why I was able to be satisfied with their
1 I don't know what they did after the war or before their arrival
2 in Kosovo. This is for some other authorities to determine, not myself.
3 Other than that, I could agree with what you say; yeah, that's okay.
4 Now -- I agree for the most part with the clarifications that we made
5 today, that that would be it.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Give us a moment, Mr. Hannis.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, the witness has a B/C/S version of the
9 statement. Is that correct?
10 MR. HANNIS: He does, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it it's a copy that hasn't been revised in
12 accordance with the changes in the supplemental information?
13 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: But it could be revised in accordance with these
15 changes, could it?
16 MR. HANNIS: Yes, and we need to omit the paragraphs 3 to 23 --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
18 MR. HANNIS: -- that you indicated at the beginning.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Witness K90, what we're going to ask you to do --
20 we'll be finishing shortly for the day. You have the afternoon free and,
21 indeed, the evening. We wish you to read a version of the statement which
22 will be given to you. Don't leave this building until you get it. That
23 version will be updated with corrections according to what you've told us
24 in the course of today and what you told Mr. Hannis on Friday.
25 You should read it tonight and you should come back tomorrow with
1 a note of any other alterations you maintain should be made to that
2 statement, and we'll consider these in the morning when we resume. So do
3 you understand what I'm asking you to do, to read your statement very
4 carefully --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: -- so you can tell us exactly if anything's wrong
7 with it or, alternatively, whether you accept that it's all true. All
8 right. So we'll deal with that again before we finish for the day in
9 about 20 minutes or so.
10 Now, Mr. O'Sullivan -- Mr. Ackerman.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, Your Honour. I'm going to request that
12 we adjourn now. There's only five minutes left and it would not, I think,
13 be productive.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: I think we have 25 minutes left.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, okay, whatever it is, Your Honour. Based
16 upon the evidence that's gone so far, we've all visited and I think it
17 would be very helpful to the Chamber if we had an evening to re-work what
18 we intended to do because we may have a shorter and a much different
19 approach to this witness. And we have no witness after this witness until
20 Wednesday anyhow, and I can assure you that we'll all finish tomorrow
21 without any problem.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we are -- Mr. Hannis, sorry.
24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm seeking some guidance about the
25 preparation of his statement. It's easy for me to put in the changes that
1 were listed in the supplemental information. I know what they are. The
2 changes he made during his testimony are less clear to me exactly what
3 those should be. I guess I would like to see what he writes about those,
4 and then prepare an amended statement to reflect that.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, all I'm asking you to do is incorporate into
6 the statement the changes which were clearly intimated in the supplemental
7 information and the additional ones at the beginning of today's evidence
8 which were clear.
9 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Insofar as anything may have been qualified or
11 supplemented in the course of oral evidence, I don't expect you to be
12 revising the statement to show that.
13 MR. HANNIS: All right.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: So this is an exercise that by -- that can be done
15 very quickly as long as you have a B/C/S speaker available to do it.
16 MR. HANNIS: Okay. That would help.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: The witness will not leave here until he gets it.
18 MR. HANNIS: I see a question.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the statement that I and the
23 Prosecutor prepared on Friday. I have my written objections on that
24 statement -- well, it's not objections. It's things that were not
25 translated properly. So that would be things that I don't want in the
1 statement. So it's three minutes, really, not more than that. I just
2 need to have this copied out on a different sheet of paper, nothing more
3 than that.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: What you will do, after going through the statement
5 carefully tonight and making any additional notes you wish, is you will
6 come in here and you will tell us directly, you will tell me directly the
7 alterations that you wish to make to that statement. We're not going to
8 do this in a rush just now.
9 We're going to give you the time overnight to read it, and we rely
10 on you to do that. And the Prosecutor will make sure that you've got a
11 copy with only the alterations that have already been made by you clearly,
12 and you'll need to start again and add any additional notes on to that so
13 that you can tell us tomorrow what changes in addition you wish to make.
14 Is that clear?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Obviously, in doing that, you can use the copy
17 you've already made notes on to make sure that you cover everything.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, we're going to finish the proceedings for
20 today, and we will resume tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning. You have to be
21 here ready to continue your evidence at 9.00 tomorrow. Meanwhile, you can
22 have no discussion with anybody at all about any of your evidence, either
23 the evidence you've given or the evidence you may yet give in the case.
24 So when you're doing the work we've asked you to do, you do it on
25 your own. You have nobody to ask about that. You can talk to people
1 about anything else, any other subject, but you can't talk to anybody at
2 all - Prosecutor, Defence, anybody - about your evidence. Now, do you
3 understand that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: So when you're dealing with this, you're entirely
6 on your own. All right.
7 Now we will go into closed session so that you can leave the
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 [Closed session]
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.29 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 30th day of
17 January, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.