1 Friday, 2 February 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Closed session to allow the witness to come into
6 court, please. Can we have the blinds down at the security end, please.
7 [Closed session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Good morning, K79.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: The examination by Mr. Marcussen will now continue.
18 Please bear in mind that the oath, the declaration you took at the
19 beginning to tell the truth continues to apply to your evidence today.
20 Mr. Marcussen.
21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Examination by Mr. Marcussen: [Continued]
23 Q. Good morning, K79.
24 A. Good morning.
25 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, with your leave, I would like to
1 start out by refreshing the witness's member on some point based on his
2 statement, about some evidence where we left off yesterday. There was a
3 legal issue that arose yesterday as to whether or not we can do that, and
4 there is a decision by the Appeals Chamber in the Hadzihasanovic case,
5 decision on interlocutory appeal relating to the refreshment of the memory
6 of a witness. The case number is IT-01-47-AR79.2 [sic], and it is of 2nd
7 April, 2004. I have prepared a bundle of material with some decision and
8 some other jurisprudence to hand around if necessary.
9 There is reference in that decision to another Appeals Chamber
10 decision in the Blagoje Simic case, that is a decision of the 23rd of May.
11 That is also included in the bundle, and there are guidelines issued by at
12 least two Trial Chambers where refreshment memory based on a prior
13 statement has been allowed. So I propose if the court officer would hand
14 around that material then Your Honours and the Defence can have a look at
15 that if there's an issue. But otherwise, if I may, I will proceed with
16 the statement.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, is there anything else you want to draw
18 our attention to on this matter?
19 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: I had a look at this yesterday and it's pretty
21 plain this course of action is permissible.
22 MR. LUKIC: I went through the documents this morning so we
23 withdraw the objection from yesterday.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
25 MR. LUKIC: Only in this regard.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: We have very much in mind we have a ruling to make
2 on your objections on the admissibility of the evidence in general.
3 MR. MARCUSSEN:
4 Q. K79, do you remember giving a statement to the Office of the
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And I --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: We got past that stage yesterday, Mr. Marcussen.
9 He accepted he had given a statement and that it was signed by him. We're
10 now at the question of clarifying the particular paragraph.
11 MR. MARCUSSEN:
12 Q. Also, just before we get to that, when you came to The Hague in
13 preparation of your testimony, did you have a chance to look at that
14 statement again?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. And did you make some -- did you make some -- did you note some
17 mistakes in the statement?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: And could we give a B/C/S copy -- a B/C/S copy of
20 the statement to the witness.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: It is now in e-court?
22 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'm informed that it is uploaded as a Defence
23 exhibit, and I think we also have given it an exhibit number yesterday.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's have a number, and let's have it on the
25 screen, please. This should be prepared for today. We've got time
1 constraints and everything should be thoroughly well organised so we can
2 make rapid progress.
3 MR. MARCUSSEN:
4 Q. All I want to ask here is the witness whether you could look at
5 the statement and whether the corrections you made were to paragraph 29
6 and paragraph 39.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN: The Exhibit number is 6D180, Your Honours.
8 While the witness is looking at the statement, just to be sure
9 we -- we cover this later on, I would like the Defence Exhibit 6D180 be
10 placed under seal as well as the other exhibits we have discussed.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
12 MR. MARCUSSEN:
13 Q. K79, I think if you look at -- if I may help you, the last
14 sentence of paragraph 29. Did you make a correction to that?
15 A. Just a moment, please. Yes.
16 Q. And then if you could go to the -- to paragraph 39, towards the
17 end of paragraph 39?
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, my learned
20 friend is referring to the number of an exhibit tendered by the Defence,
21 but as I heard yesterday, and I hope I noted it down correctly, the
22 statement bears number P2653. This was the number given by the
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. But he has chosen to use 6D180, and there's
25 nothing to stop him had doing that.
1 MR. MARCUSSEN: And it's only that the Prosecution exhibit, as I
2 understand, is not uploaded into the system, so we couldn't call it up.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: So we see no problem with him using a Defence
5 MR. MARCUSSEN: Is --
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN: Sorry.
8 Q. K79, am I correct you also made a correction to paragraph 39?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. But when you reviewed the statement prior to testifying, they were
11 the only two errors you saw in the statement; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: This doesn't sound to me like refreshing memory.
14 This sounds to me like challenging.
15 MR. MARCUSSEN:
16 Q. My next question is this: If I were to show another paragraph --
17 if I were to show some other parts of your statement to you, do you think
18 that would help you recollect some of the other events in the statement
19 that you testified about yesterday?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could I ask you then to take a look at paragraphs 34 and 35,
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In -- in the last part of paragraph 34 the statement says that
25 your platoon commander, "... told us that the company commander had
1 ordered that we were to search all houses in the village of Ljubizda
2 and any Albanians who were still there had to be deported. That was when
3 the looting really started."
4 Is that -- does that refresh your memory about the events?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. And is this a correct description now that you have seen this? Is
7 this how you would describe it?
8 A. To be expelled, not deported - that may be an error - to the road
9 leading from Suva Reka to Prizren, that they should be expelled from the
11 Q. Thank you. And then in the next paragraph, paragraph 35, you say
12 that: "In Ljubizda, we went from house to house forcing out the occupants
13 and ordering them to leave Kosovo. I didn't see anyone killed, but there
14 was mistreatment and people were beaten up. Two or three houses were
15 burned and the company stole the people's belongings."
16 Now, having looked at the statement, do you think this is a
17 correct description? Does that sound like what you remember the events to
19 A. Yes, but not all the policemen. Two or three policemen did that.
20 I'm referring to the looting.
21 Q. Okay. Thank you. But -- but otherwise it's -- it's a correct
22 description that the occupants were forced out? There was some
23 mistreatment, although nobody were killed?
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
1 MR. IVETIC: If he's going to change what the meaning of what the
2 statement is, then the question is meaningless. If he's going to cite
3 exactly the what the statement says and put it to the witness, then that's
4 the only way he can do. I don't agree with this tactic of all of a sudden
5 changing what is said and then giving it to the witness and asking him if
6 that's correct, isn't.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.
8 MR. MARCUSSEN: The witness said that the statement was a correct
9 reflection and then he made a modification and said it was only two or
10 three policemen, and I wanted to make sure that the modification he's
11 making is only in relation to how many people were involved in the looting
12 and the clarification on that point.
13 He had -- I had already read out the paragraph. He said this is a
14 correct reflection; then he had a modification to part of it and all I'm
15 doing is trying to find out the scope of that modification.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: But the way to do that is to confirm whether he
17 maintains that people were beaten up, which is the point you're trying to
18 clarify. Don't paraphrase it, please.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN:
20 Q. K79, so is it correct that your company went from house to house
21 and forced occupants out of the houses?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And were they ordered to leave Kosovo?
24 A. To leave their houses.
25 MR. LUKIC: And this was asked and answered previously.
1 MR. MARCUSSEN: But now we're refreshing the witness memory and
2 the statement to specifically deal with this issue, and we're trying to
4 JUDGE BONOMY: You can't have it both ways, Mr. Lukic. If
5 Mr. Ivetic insists on the statement being scrupulously adhered to, then
6 Mr. Marcussen is entitled to go back over it on that basis.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN:
8 Q. Okay. So on this point, there's an error in the statement? Is
9 that right, K79? This is not a correct reflection of how you remember it
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. And you didn't see anybody get killed; is that correct?
13 A. No, I didn't.
14 Q. Were -- were some people beaten and mistreated though?
15 A. Yes. Two or three Albanians perhaps.
16 Q. And -- and were -- were two or three houses burned down?
17 A. I think two houses were burnt down.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if I could interrupt you briefly there.
20 You were making efforts, yesterday, to try to secure more sitting time
21 today, and a great deal of effort's been put into that with a view to
22 trying to complete the evidence of the witness, and it is possible for us
23 to sit to 3.30 today if that's going to achieve the objective.
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: Having reviewed my own notes and having discussed
25 with my learned friends on the other side who have been very
1 accommodating, I -- I do not think that we will be able to -- to achieve
2 the objective of finishing the witness even if we sit all this time.
3 I think in light of some of the issues that have come up, we must
4 have some cross-examination and I will have to probably spend little more
5 time than I optimistically hoped yesterday.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: When do you expect to finish this examination?
7 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, we have been keeping good progress so if we
8 could keep this speed, then I may be done may be in half an hour or a
9 little less.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: That will allow more than four hours to the Defence
11 for cross-examination. Would that be sufficient? It would be roughly
12 equivalent to the examination-in-chief, so there is a possibility and I
13 think we should go for it, if we can. If we fail we fail, but we should
14 try. If we are going to do that, then we'll sit according to the
15 lengthier day schedule, which means that this session would go to 10.45,
16 and then we will follow the time we would normally follow if we were
17 sitting until 3.30. So let's proceed on that basis.
18 MR. MARCUSSEN: I see that I will probably need some time for
19 re-examination, so that's also one of the reasons why I am -- we're all
20 happy to go --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: So let's go ahead.
22 MR. MARCUSSEN:
23 Q. K79, I'll now sort of proceed with the chronology of events from
24 where we stopped yesterday, and we talked a little bit about you seeing
25 refugees on -- on the road between Suva Reka and Prizren.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MR. MARCUSSEN: I should maybe ask if the usher could retrieve the
4 Q. Sorry, K79. You were to see the statement for some specific
5 purposes. We'll withdraw that.
6 K79, how long did you stay in Korisa?
7 A. Our base was there for about a month.
8 Q. And while you were there did you see anybody get killed by members
9 of your detachment?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. LUKIC: The same objection as yesterday, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. That's noted, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. MARCUSSEN:
14 Q. Could you explain for us what happened, please?
15 A. A policeman killed a farmer, an elderly Albanian.
16 Q. Before killing the elderly Albanian, did anything happen?
17 A. Yes. He took ten German marks from him.
18 Q. Do you know the name of the person who killed this elderly
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if we could go into private session, then we
22 can develop this a bit.
23 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 MR. MARCUSSEN:
9 Q. Did your company commander know about this, do you think? Sorry,
10 let me rephrase that. Did your company commander know about this?
11 A. I don't think he knew. I'm not sure, but I don't think he knew.
12 Q. Where were you -- do you remember where you were on the 20th of
13 April, 1999?
14 A. Around the 20th of April, we were doing the village of Budakovo.
15 Q. And when you say "we were doing the village," what do you mean by
16 doing the village?
17 A. Mopping it up of KLA members. That's the term we used for that.
18 Q. And during this operation, did you witness anybody being killed?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you describe that for us, please?
21 MR. LUKIC: Same objection as before, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: It's noted, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. MARCUSSEN:
24 Q. K79, would you -- would you tell us what happened, please?
25 A. Two young men were killed on the road.
1 Q. Who killed them?
2 A. The company commander.
3 Q. And did you see him kill -- kill these two men?
4 A. Yes. I and three or four other policemen saw it.
5 Q. And could you tell us what these -- the men that were killed
6 looked like?
7 A. They were about 30, approximately 30 years old.
8 Q. Were they wearing a uniform?
9 A. No.
10 Q. When you saw them did they have any weapons?
11 A. No, they didn't.
12 Q. I would ask that we go into -- if we could go into private
13 session. I would like to cover the incident where we started on some
14 photographs yesterday. So if we can, first of all, go in and continue
15 with that incident?
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 9669-9672 redacted. Private session
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
14 MR. MARCUSSEN: My apologies. We have had heard evidence from
15 Witness Latifi about this area about events that were earlier, but about a
16 campaign that started on the 25th, 26th of February. So this is obviously
17 taking time -- taking place after that event. So I just wanted to make
18 that clear. Our arguments as to why this is relevant are the same. I'm
19 not going to open that all up again.
20 Q. K79, did you participate in an operation in Bukos?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: It's noted that Mr. Lukic objects again.
23 MR. MARCUSSEN:
24 Q. Where is Bukos? Is there a bigger down that's close to it that
25 you know the name of?
1 A. It is in the direction of Budakovo. From Suva Reka, it's a small
2 village there.
3 Q. Approximately, how far from Suva Reka, if you remember?
4 A. About ten kilometres or so, more or less. I don't know exactly,
5 but I think that would be the distance.
6 Q. During this operation, did you see anybody getting killed?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you -- could you describe for us what happened, please?
9 A. Four KLA members were captured, put in a house, and a grenade was
10 thrown in through a window.
11 Q. Did -- did you see the men being put into the house?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you see the grenade -- how many grenades were thrown in?
14 A. Two.
15 Q. And did you see that?
16 A. Yes. It was some 20 metres from where we stood.
17 Q. And who -- who threw in the grenade -- or grenades, rather?
18 A. People from the 2nd Company.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: We have been taking this sort of -- redacting this
20 sort of information. I think we should take the reference to the 2nd
21 Company out from the public version and redact it.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Why?
23 MR. MARCUSSEN: We have -- we have kept the detachment numbers and
24 all these other things --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: But you don't know the detachment number. You
1 don't know the unit number. I mean, it could be the 2nd Company of any
2 detachment. Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was from our detachment.
4 MR. MARCUSSEN:
5 Q. Thank you. On this operation, were there anybody else with you
6 other than the -- the PJP that were with you during this operation?
7 A. There were the people from the Suva Reka utility company. They
8 had a truck.
9 Q. And what was their function during the operation?
10 A. They collected the bodies of the dead KLA members after the
12 Q. Do you know what they did with the bodies?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. K79, I'd like now to go back to -- to 1998. Well, I guess maybe
15 even before with a general question. Do you know of a unit called the --
16 referred to as the JSO?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What was that unit?
19 A. It was the unit for special operations.
20 Q. And how was this unit armed compared to your -- the things, the
21 equipment that you had in the PJP?
22 A. They had better weapons.
23 Q. Did you know the unit before you went to Kosovo?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What kind of a reputation did the JSO had among you -- you
1 policemen in the PJP?
2 A. Its reputation was as a good and capable unit.
3 Q. Do you know who the commander of that unit was?
4 A. Ulemek, nicknamed "Legija," was the commander of the unit.
5 Q. How do you know that?
6 A. Well, everybody knew that, and I, in fact, saw him once in Kosovo.
7 Q. I'm going to ask you about that in just a little bit; but before I
8 do that, did -- do you know who his superior was?
9 A. I think it was Frenki up until July, August 1998, and after that I
10 don't know.
11 Q. Do you know what Frenki's family name was?
12 A. Franko Simatovic.
13 Q. And how do you know him?
14 A. I saw him in Srbica in 1998.
15 Q. When in 1998 did you see him there?
16 A. I think it was in early September.
17 Q. Was that in connection with an operation?
18 A. Yes. I saw them after an operation.
19 Q. Did you ever participate in an operation where the JSO also
21 A. No. If we were unable to take a place, they would come in and
22 finish the job. So we never actually were in action together with them.
23 Q. Were you ever in areas where they had first been in action and
24 then the PJP was deployed afterwards?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Where was that?
2 A. That was in Donja Lausa [Realtime transcript read in error "Gornja
3 Lausa"] and Gornja Lausa near Srbica, and also at Budakovo in 1999.
4 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour, outside the scope of the
6 JUDGE BONOMY: That's also noted, Mr. Lukic. I think actually the
7 two names, which are identical in the transcript, were actually different
8 in what the witness said. I think he may have said "Donja Lausa and
9 Gornja Lausa," but perhaps that came be -- is that correct?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
11 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Could you describe the operation in 1998? Did the JSO do anything
13 in particular that you remember during the operation we talked about?
14 A. This was a very big stronghold of the KLA, Gornja Lausa and Donja
15 Lausa, and they cleaned up this area of KLA members. But we got there
16 afterwards, so we didn't see them in combat.
17 Q. Did you -- had anything happened to -- to the houses in the area?
18 A. The houses were burnt down, but I don't know who set them on fire.
19 Q. Were you involved in an operation that started at Drenica and went
20 through Glogovac and towards Vucitrn?
21 A. In 1998.
22 Q. Yes, in 1998?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did the JSO --
25 MR. LUKIC: Same objection, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Noted, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think we have evidence from Kadriu and maybe
3 Gerxhaliu about some of this already.
4 MR. LUKIC: Is it 1998?
5 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes.
6 MR. LUKIC: So it's outside the scope of the indictment.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN:
8 Q. K79, did -- did the JSO participate in this operation that I just
9 mentioned last?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. During the different -- I'm moving to something else now. During
12 the operations that you participated in, was there, from what you saw, any
13 VJ infantrymen with you at any time?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you ever see any members of the army steal or loot?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How many times?
18 A. Once.
19 Q. Could you explain -- well, let's -- let's cover this. When was
21 A. It was in April 1999.
22 Q. And where?
23 A. Near Korisa, on the road. This man was robbing the refugees, and
24 he got arrested by two captains that were -- happened to be close by.
25 Q. Before -- before getting arrested, who did he ask money from?
1 A. From the Albanians in the column.
2 Q. No one else?
3 A. Well, there was a military vehicle in the column and he asked this
4 army captain for some money, and that's when they actually arrested him.
5 He was drunk.
6 Q. Thank you. Did you ever -- you have mentioned a number of crimes
7 that have been committed -- that were committed by different members of
8 the MUP. Did you ever see any of them get arrested while you were in
10 A. Yes. Two members of my detachment were arrested. It was near
11 Vranje, on their way back to their weakened leave.
12 Q. Why were they arrested?
13 A. Well, in their car they had some VCRs, cameras, TV sets.
14 Q. Who arrested them?
15 A. The police from Vranje.
16 Q. Did anybody of the specific people -- the people that -- that
17 committed the crimes that we have been talking about yesterday and today,
18 did they ever get arrested?
21 Q. All right. Do you know when he was arrested? K79, do you know
22 when -- well, yes. We need a redaction then of the name at page 29, line
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, we have that, Mr. Marcussen.
25 Question is do you know when the commander was arrested.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sometime in August or September last
2 year. I'm not sure, but I think that was the time.
3 MR. MARCUSSEN:
4 Q. Thank you. The -- when did you leave Kosovo?
5 A. On the 12th of June, 1999.
6 Q. Did you continue to work as a policeman after that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What about the other members of your company?
9 A. Yes, all of us.
10 Q. Did you at some point start to speak openly about the crimes you
11 have -- that you had seen in Kosovo?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What happened then?
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Marcussen, does this need to be
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: We should. Let's do that.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: I think from the -- from line 12 of paragraph 24 to
13 line -- so page 25, line 4 should be redacted, and we should go into
14 private session.
15 [Private session]
11 Page 9682 redacted. Private session
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we will reverse the order of the
5 indictment and begin with General Lukic.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness K79.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. My name is Branko Lukic. Before me I have your statement which
12 you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, and the testimony you gave to
13 this Court yesterday and today. We will have to go through your statement
14 in detail because of some things that were said.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Are there copies available in English, which would
16 make it easier for us?
17 MR. LUKIC: It is in the e-court.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. We can do that, but it's sometimes easier to
19 have it available in hard copy when it's a contentious issue like this.
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think we -- my case manager foresaw that, and we
21 have some -- I think it should go probably just to the Bench, the English
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you.
24 Carry on, please, Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Before we proceed to the statement you gave to
2 the investigators of the Tribunal, I wish to put some general questions to
3 you. You were in Kosovo as only part of one unit, and --
4 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we should go to the private session.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: You're going to be identifying --
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: -- people and units. Very well. We shall go into
8 private session.
9 [Private session]
11 Page 9685 redacted. Private session
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. As we are no longer in private session, I will skip over a part I
2 was going to ask about and come back to it later. I will now ask you
3 something about the statement you made to the Office of the Prosecutor.
4 We don't see here where you made this statement.
5 A. In Belgrade.
6 Q. Can you tell us, if you recall, who was present?
7 A. Mr. Philip Caine.
8 Q. Now let's move to the statement. Is it correct that every member
9 of the PJP individually received a brochure about the behaviour of
10 policemen in times of war and adhering to wartime conventions?
11 A. No. We didn't get it. I don't know about others.
12 Q. In paragraph 3, when you speak of regular police duties, you said
13 that you did normal police duties although you were a member of the PJP
14 and that you were only called upon to attend, for example, demonstrations
15 in Pristina or Belgrade.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When did you become a member of the PJP?
18 A. On the 1st of September, 1998. (redacted)
20 MR. LUKIC: Can we please redact --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, redact that, please.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Were you ever sent as a member of the PJP to a demonstration?
24 A. Yes, after the war.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I thought that the reserve detachment you mentioned
1 was a reserve detachment of the PJP.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: And prior to the 1st of September, you were a
4 member of that reserve detachment?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Does that not mean that you were a member of the
7 PJP before the 1st of September?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a manner of speaking, yes, it
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: I need to go to the private session. I think that
12 we'll have to jump in and out very often.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's go into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 9689-9690 redacted. Private session
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. The Prosecutor showed you, yesterday, Exhibit P1600. These are
22 camouflage uniforms worn by the PJP. You told us, yesterday, that those
23 were NATO uniforms. Can we in fact agree that --
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: I didn't show --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.
1 MR. MARCUSSEN: I did not show P1600 to the witness. I think it
2 was a witness earlier this week. It has been hectic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My mistake, and I do apologise.
4 Q. Can we please -- in fact, we could look at this photograph, but I
5 have a very brief question for you. Can we then agree that the green
6 camouflage uniforms worn by the PJP were in fact made in Yugoslavia, but
7 they were a copy of uniforms worn by the -- by NATO in their pattern. So
8 those were not in effect the uniforms produced by NATO.
9 A. Yes. They were made in our country, but we called them NATO
11 Q. And you used this term because of the pattern on those uniforms?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now something in relation to paragraph 10. Here you say that in
14 the company that bore the same name as your detachment, and now don't let
15 us mention the actual name, (redacted)
21 A. Yes, yes. Well, I actually saw them on only one occasion. They
22 wore all kinds of uniforms. Some wore NATO uniforms. Some were blue
23 uniforms. They only joined us when it was necessary in our detachment.
24 Q. Can we, in fact, agree on the following: You don't know whether
25 they were in fact members of the company that has the same name as your
2 A. Well, they were at Budakovo.
3 Q. Geographically speaking, they were in the same location as you
4 were, but you don't know whether they were officially members of this
6 A. Well, I don't know whether they were officially members, but they
7 were with us.
8 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you something in relation to
9 paragraphs 12 and 13 of your statement. You have a statement in front of
11 A. No.
12 MR. LUKIC: If I --
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think we can assist with a B/C/S copy.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. So paragraphs 12 and 13, but you don't have to read it yet. Let
16 me ask you something related to what you said yesterday in your evidence.
17 You speak about your arrival in Orahovac. At 9591, line 19, you say the
18 following when asked by my learned colleague Mr. Marcussen, and again I
19 will be reading in English so that we all get the correct interpretation:
20 "[In English] How far did you go in the trucks, until where?
21 "Answer: To Bela Crkva and then to the entrance into Orahovac.
22 "Question: Did you get off the trucks there?
23 "Answer: No.
24 "Question: Can you describe what happened when you arrived at the
25 entrance to Orahovac?
1 "Answer: Fighting was still going on in town.
2 "Question: And what did you -- what did you do?
3 "Answer: We were waiting in the trucks.
4 "Question: Did you come under fire?
5 "Answer: No, not at that moment.
6 "Question: Did you approach Orahovac further?
7 "Answer: Yes. We went through all of Orahovac and went to the
8 Serb neighbourhood up there."
9 [Interpretation] Were the engines of the trucks idling all this
11 A. No, not when we stopped at the entrance into Orahovac.
12 Q. Yes, okay. But when you moved through Orahovac, the engines were
13 on all the time; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were those trucks covered by canvas?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you pass through Orahovac on those trucks without stopping?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You described to us yesterday how members of the SAJ captured an
20 Albanian, beat him up, and how one of SAJ members killed him, shot him to
21 death. So we can agree that in fact you saw all that from a moving truck;
22 is that correct?
23 A. No. It was not moving. We were at the entrance to the village,
24 and there we were stationary.
25 Q. So this did not happen at the hotel but at the entrance to
2 A. Yes. At the gas station, the hotel, at the entrance, that's where
3 we were stopped.
4 Q. Who was there with you when you saw this incident?
5 A. Well, there were the policemen from my platoon and my squad.
6 Q. If we go into private session, could you give us the full names of
7 the people who were with you?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... can we go to the
10 private session, Your Honour?
11 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. I have to ask you this: Do you know the full name and the duty of
2 the -- in the unit of the person who actually fired the shots?
3 A. No.
4 Q. What weapon did he fire the shots from? Were you able to see
6 A. It was a pistol.
7 Q. Were you able to see whether any of the SAJ commanders were
8 present there?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I have to ask you this in light of some other evidence: You said
11 that you came to location Vran-stena, that you were under fire. This is
12 in paragraphs 14 and 15 of your statement.
13 In the three days that you spent there, did you kill any KLA
14 members in light of the fact that you were under fire all this time?
15 A. We found four KLA members there, and they were dead. They had
16 been killed in action.
17 Q. What did you do with their bodies? Can you please tell us?
18 A. They were buried there, I think. I think that they were buried
19 right there in the trench where they were.
20 Q. I think that we will not jeopardise disclosing your identity if
21 you told us what company or what unit - just give us the designation
22 number - that replaced you when you left that position.
23 A. I think it was the 20th. It was a unit from Pirot.
24 Q. Thank you. Now I would like you to move on to paragraph 19 and
25 20, and we will have to spend some time dealing with them.
1 In paragraph 19 you say: "In one of these hamlets, five civilians
2 were killed; two women were raped and then killed there; three men and two
3 women were killed in one house; and in another one, an old woman and her
4 son who was mentally ill."
5 Were those two houses close to each other and were those murders
6 committed at the same time?
7 A. No. It was not at the same time, and those two houses were not
8 close to each other.
9 Q. When you talk about these events, could you please tell us whether
10 the reconnaissance squad was present there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In this first house where according to you three men and two women
13 were killed, was any fire opened from that house on your unit as you
14 approach the house?
15 A. No. But we did find a vest in there, a combat vest, and a rifle.
16 Q. Yes. We got that from your evidence yesterday.
17 Witness K78 gave evidence, gave a statement to the Prosecution;
18 and in paragraph 13 of his statement, he states that fire was opened on
19 you as you approached the houses.
20 A. Well, let me clarify something. The reconnaissance squad was the
21 first to approach the house. It's possible that they came under fire.
22 But when we approach the house, there was no fire coming out of it. So
23 this is something that I know.
24 Q. Thank you. So the same witness, K78, claims that his unit took a
25 boy with them. He was one of those three men, and that he later escaped.
1 So what he's saying is that it is not true that that three men were killed
2 but only two. Would you agree with this or would you maintain what you
3 said previously?
4 A. Well, I didn't see that so I don't know about it.
5 Q. Is it possible at all, in light of the fact that you say that all
6 three men were killed?
7 A. I saw that three men were killed, and I didn't see anything else.
8 Q. Fine. In paragraph 20, you claim the following: "I saw clearly
10 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we have to redact and go to the private
11 session. I'm sorry. I mentioned the name.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll redact line 3 of page 42, and we'll go to
13 private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 9699-9700 redacted. Private session
3 [Closed session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I ask you
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could my testimony be completed
14 today? I have to travel home tomorrow. I have business I cannot
15 postpone. I told the Office of the Prosecutor before I arrived here that
16 I couldn't stay for longer than ten days. They said it would all be over
17 in four or five days. I have to be home on Sunday.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: We're doing our best to complete your testimony
19 today. Whether we will or not will depend on how quickly we proceed. So
20 let's get on -- under way again.
21 Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I just need one brief
23 clarification from Your Honours. Would I be allowed to refresh the
24 witness's recollection regarding the Belgrade testimony?
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Have you loaded this into e-court?
1 MR. LUKIC: I didn't. I haven't. I haven't.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: It can be done if due course, but -- or can it not?
3 MR. MARCUSSEN: No, it can't be done. It's just this issue of the
4 Prosecution not being notified of the use of documents before
5 cross-examination and the compliance with the Chamber's direction in that
6 regard that I'm concerned about.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. But where the issue is -- is challenging the
8 witness's evidence on the basis of a prior statement, that's not
9 necessarily a foreseeable course of action. And, therefore, we will allow
10 the use of this statement, and it can be loaded into the system
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Your Honour.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, we received your statement from the Office
14 of the Prosecutor, the one you gave in Belgrade; and on page 3 of that
15 statement K052, 5862, the last paragraph speaking about the incident we
16 discussed before, you say the following --
17 MR. LUKIC: Could we go to the private session, Your Honour?
18 There are names mentioned in this.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: It seems to me it would be best to stay in private
20 session until we complete this evidence, Mr. Lukic. It's becoming rather
21 unsatisfactory, particularly when so many redactions have had to be made.
22 So until we get to a stage where it's clear that you're not going to have
23 to do this, we should stay in private session.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 9703-9725 redacted. Private session
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. So you did not have anything whatsoever to do with the army; is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. When it comes to the fighting in Orahovac, you said
16 that you saw outside Orahovac members of the army of Yugoslavia, of the
17 VJ. My question is this: Do you know for a fact that in the sector where
18 you saw members of the VJ immediately before your arrival, there had been
19 an attack on an army vehicle and on that occasion an officer was killed,
20 two soldiers were wounded, and the rest of the soldiers who were there
21 were kept prisoner by the KLA?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
24 MR. CEPIC: [In English] I'm sorry. I have problems with the
1 Q. [Interpretation] You are probably aware of the fact that the unit
2 that you found there was sent to help the prisoners of the KLA and of
3 saving the body of the fallen officer?
4 A. Yes. Those were very strong positions [as interpreted].
5 Q. And that was the only position where you actually saw any members
6 of the VJ or a unit of the VJ in that moment in the Orahovica sector; is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. CEPIC: [In English] Your Honour, if you allow me. We have
10 problems in the transcript. Page 70, line 19, I think that the witness
11 said, "Those were very strong positions of the KLA." We miss that part
12 of -- of the testimony.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm happy to accept that, Mr. Cepic.
14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. K79, my colleague Lukic asked you and you confirmed that you
16 knew about some arrested people and criminal charges that were issued. My
17 question is: Do you know that a number of persons in the course of the
18 stay of the so-called KLA in Orahovac were kidnapped?
19 A. Yes. Some 50 or so Serbs.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.
21 MR. CEPIC: [In English] Again, problems with the microphone.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know that the KLA entered Orahovac, five
23 civilians were killed, two Serb women were raped?
24 A. I'm aware of the civilians. I don't know anything about the Serb
1 Q. Thank you. Do you know that a certain number of bodies that had
2 been kidnapped in Orahovac were later on found in the Volujak cave?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And they were buried in 2005 in the vicinity of Belgrade?
5 A. I don't know that they were buried, but I know that they had been
7 Q. Mr. K79, in paragraph 36 of your statement, you say that the army
8 behaved differently, that members of the army would be arrested if they
9 were found looting?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You also illustrated that by an example today. Can we then
12 conclude that the VJ and its members acted professionally in every aspect?
13 A. In my territory, yes. I don't know about the things elsewhere.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. K79. I don't have any more questions for you.
15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is all I had to ask
16 this witness. Once again, thank you.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Aleksic.
18 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We don't
19 have any questions for this witness.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk.
21 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic?
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No questions. Thank you.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Marcussen.
2 MR. MARCUSSEN: Looks like things have been going much more
3 smoothly than expected.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Marcussen:
5 Q. K79, just on the last point about the VJ, you were asked about
6 your -- your statement and about the behaviour of -- of the VJ. Am I
7 correct that when you talk about your knowledge of whether member of the
8 VJ would get arrested if they committed a crime is based on that one time
9 when you saw a member of the VJ getting arrested?
10 A. Yes, and I also heard other people talking about that.
11 Q. You were billeted in the military barracks in a MUP, in a special
12 MUP installation as it was called. Could you explain to us, as you were
13 entering the barracks, how would you get to those installations?
14 A. You would have to past through the barracks. There was a facility
15 there that was used only by the MUP members who did not hail from Prizren.
16 When we arrived there, this is where they were billeted, in those rooms.
17 This is a special building within the barracks that was used exclusively
18 by the MUP.
19 Q. Would you -- the entrance to the barracks, would there be some
20 sort of a check-point?
21 A. Yes. There were soldiers and there was also a member of the
22 police, and that was at the main gate where they could be seen.
23 Q. And was it your impression that it was a permanent installation,
24 MUP installation, within the barracks?
25 A. Yes. It had been built before for those MUP members who did not
1 hail from the area and had to be accommodated somewhere, and I'm talking
2 about Prizren.
3 Q. Was it -- was it different in the first barracks where you were?
4 A. You're referring to Djakovica?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. No. It was the same.
7 Q. You have been giving evidence about a number of crimes. Are they
8 all crimes you yourself have witnessed?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not a helpful question. We've been into the
10 detail with respect to each, and we have all the information the witness
11 has to say about each of these events. This all-encompassing question
12 doesn't help.
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: The question which I wanted to get to which I hope
14 is appropriate is:
15 Q. Did you hear of other crimes being committed?
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I'm going to object to that. That is
17 beyond the scope of the cross. He should have asked it in direct if he
18 had any knowledge.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Surely that's correct, Mr. Marcussen.
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'm asking because in cross-examination, there
21 were questions about limiting his knowledge to being only -- that he only
22 know about crimes that he was -- that were committed by his unit. That
23 was what Mr. Lukic started out with, and I just want to clarify whether
24 that is.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, his question was, Mr. Lukic's question?
1 MR. IVETIC: I believe that the question was he only knows about
2 conduct of his unit not crimes, Counsel.
3 MR. MARCUSSEN: Crimes is also conduct.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm not -- well, give us a second.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: You can't go into that question, Mr. Marcussen.
7 You cannot try by any means to give us the impression that the witness
8 could tell us about other criminal activity, in re-examination.
9 MR. MARCUSSEN: I withdraw it. Fine.
10 Q. You were asked about Ulemek or Legija. Was there anything
11 distinguishable about him that you recognized when saw him in Kosovo?
12 A. Yes. He was wearing a Toja [phoen] T-shirt. He was tattooed. He
13 had some nets and a rose on his neck. He was heavily built. He had some
14 engines on his arm, tattoos of engines.
15 Q. You said he had a rose on his neck. Was that a tattoo or --
16 A. Yes, a tattoo.
17 Q. You've been asked about the issue of dividing or sharing money and
18 things that were stolen and looted, and I think we need to clarify this a
19 little bit. You -- you said today that there were two separate incidents
20 that you have been talking about; one in 1998 and one in 1999.
21 Yesterday, you also spoke about two different -- you described two
22 different things. You described sharing money that was taken from
23 refugees, and then you described an incident where three trucks came. The
24 sharing of the money --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. -- when was that?
2 A. In 1999.
3 Q. And the three trucks?
4 A. 1998.
7 I'm sorry. That's my mistake. We need a redaction, I'm afraid, to page
8 75, line 22, and we'll need to go -- if I can ask we go into private
9 session for just a previous moment?
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
11 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
23 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I have no further questions for the
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Marcussen.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll go into private session. Judge Chowhan has
3 certain questions he wishes to ask.
4 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: K79, you've got your wish. That brings your
6 evidence to an end. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give evidence
7 and to assist the trial process. You are now free to leave the courtroom.
8 We shall go into closed session for that purpose.
9 [Closed session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen is now going to surprise us by
17 telling us which witness he's leading this afternoon.
18 MR. MARCUSSEN: As a matter of fact, Your Honour, no, I'm not.
19 Yes. We -- we don't have any witnesses for the rest of this week, I'm
21 JUDGE BONOMY: And you are going to ensure that next week is fully
22 occupied, at least the three days we have? It's not looking too
23 optimistic on the list I received.
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: I -- I would probably be somewhat careless if I
25 could promise you that we would have a full list, but I do think that we
1 will be occupying a good part of next week, at least, and I'm hopeful we
2 will be occupying the full week. We are trying to do what we can to fill
3 out the schedule.
4 It really it difficult. We have several time whose entire time is
5 taken up by this. But as we have pointed out in a filing we made, we have
6 reached the point where it really is difficult to shuffle people around.
7 We're doing our best.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: The Trial Chamber's grateful to all who were
9 willing to change their arrangements to accommodate the effort to complete
10 this witness's evidence. As usual, we achieved it far more quickly than
11 anticipated. That seems to happen regularly when we make special
12 arrangements to extend the sitting time. That means we can now adjourn,
13 and we shall resume on Wednesday at 9.00.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.39 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day
16 of February, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.