1 Friday, 9 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Milutinovic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: I have two matters to deal with before we proceed
7 at all with the evidence today. The first is a question I want to direct
8 to Mr. Hannis. The Chamber is faced with an application for certification
9 of a decision made about the evidence of General Clark, and it's an
10 anxious and difficult decision for us to reach, particularly bearing in
11 mind the need to satisfy the second leg of the test. So I don't hide from
12 you the fact that it's not easy for us to decide it.
13 Coincidentally, however, we've received a further submission in
14 relation to the evidence of the witnesses -- the other two American
15 witnesses who are not yet resolved. And in one of the footnotes to that
16 submission it is said: "The Trial Chamber made clear in its second
17 decision on the Prosecution motion for leave to amend its 65 ter list to
18 add Wesley Clark that the Defence must be able to cross-examine on matters
19 related to credibility of a witness. The United States Government now
20 expressly narrows its requested protective measures for all USG Rule 70
21 witnesses to allow the Defence to question on these matters."
22 Now, that on the face of it indicates that it's acceptable in
23 relation to all these witnesses. And what we would like is clarification
24 of that.
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I will try and obtain that clarification
1 for you. My last communication with the US indicated that was their
2 position with regard to Burns and Philips however it appears it may still
3 be a lingering issue regarding General Clark.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: And I -- you can understand that being at the stage
5 we're at that the -- any significant change in circumstances may be a
6 matter far better dealt with by the Trial Chamber than at a later stage in
7 the proceedings, and that's why it would be helpful to have this
9 MR. HANNIS: I understand, Your Honour. I've conveyed that and
10 the US is aware of our timetable as well with end of evidence
11 for -- projected for the 23rd of March.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, I wonder if that's possible to do that today,
13 Mr. Hannis.
14 MR. HANNIS: Because of the time difference we aren't able to hear
15 from Washington until late in the day. I will do what I can, Your Honour,
16 because it is a matter that has been the subject of ongoing discussions.
17 I think when I raised it last, no action was being taken because of our
18 pending request for certification, and it seemed to be that they were
19 waiting the outcome of that to make what I guess is a tougher decision for
21 JUDGE BONOMY: But it is a -- one has to, I think, immediately
22 comment that it's a difficult distinction to understand, so that's why --
23 we read it the way it was meant to be but then thought perhaps it should
24 be clarified, because it was a submission in relation to a different
25 matter. So we shall leave that matter in your hands and hope that you can
1 relay an answer to us.
2 MR. HANNIS: I'll do so at the earliest possible moment, Your
4 JUDGE BONOMY: I now turn to deal with the various objections that
5 were taken to the edited report of Philip Coo which was intimated to the
6 parties and tendered to the Court as his proposed Rule 92 ter statement.
7 I first of all want to make it clear that the Trial Chamber
8 rejects the Defence submission that the proximity of the witness to the
9 Prosecution team is a bar to him giving evidence of fact. There's nothing
10 wrong, in the opinion of the Trial Chamber, with an investigator giving
11 evidence of fact. It is also our view that the fact that he was present
12 at interviews of accused and witnesses does not bar him from giving
13 evidence, either. Indeed, he might even be the vehicle through which
14 evidence is tendered to the Court of what was said by an accused person in
15 an interview and indeed by a witness where there's an issue over the
16 credibility of the witness.
17 We also reject the notion that no part of this report could ever
18 be presented to the Court as his statement; however, in its present form
19 it is entirely unacceptable. So in other words, we do reject it in its
20 present form as an unsuitable way of presenting his evidence. It is
21 essentially the same report as was originally prepared by him as an expert
22 witness, and even in this redacted form it is riddled with expressions of
23 opinion that would be appropriate for only an expert to express.
24 It is also riddled with expressions of conclusions that are for
25 the Court and not for a witness of fact to draw. He interprets material
1 where it's for the Court to interpret it, he speculates in some instances
2 that events in one year must have been such and such because of the
3 circumstances of another year, he reaches conclusions based on limited
4 identified source material, he provides analysis in certain
5 circumstances. And broadly speaking, the Trial Chamber has accepted the
6 criticisms -- the detailed criticisms of the content of this report that
7 were advanced by the Defence.
8 That having been said, if Mr. Coo, as investigator, has obtained
9 information, particularly in the form of documents, and he is on the face
10 of it the appropriate vehicle through which to introduce factual
11 information, including documentary material, then there is no objection to
12 that being done. However, we do note that the documents that are referred
13 to in the report fall into a number of categories which on the face of it
14 don't appear to be matters he ought to be dealing with at all. For
15 example, there are 140 documents that are laws, decrees, rules, orders,
16 decisions, or plans that should be capable of presentation to the Court in
17 a written submission. And hopefully, many of them are the subject of
18 agreement, if not already admitted.
19 There are 31 Serbian print media reports, and these are matters in
20 general which the Chamber has said it will exclude unless satisfied,
21 particularly satisfied, about the authenticity of what is said in a press
22 report. And we gave examples before of reporting particularly by press --
23 by radio and television, but also by print media of the precise terms of
24 an interview. They also include, I think, 17 television or radio
25 programmes and references to 12 web sites. Some of these web site
1 references are obviously relevant and admissible, but in relation to
2 others, there must be some doubt and therefore, again, it may be that the
3 best way of dealing with this is through a written filing.
4 Where we see the limit of Mr. Coo as a vehicle for presentation of
5 material is that he can tell us what was recovered, he can tell us how on
6 the face of material documents recovered they might relate to each other,
7 he might even tell us how documents could possibly have a bearing on
8 events; but for him to tell us that they do or that they appear to him to
9 have some bearing on the events that supports or corroborates other
10 evidence is quite wrong, in view of the earlier decision we took.
11 What we would encourage you to do is -- as a Prosecution team is
12 to follow earlier guidance we've given about written submissions covering
13 authenticity, reliability, relevance, and probative value. Orders and
14 decisions were made in relation to earlier applications to admit documents
15 as free-standing documents, and these orders and decisions contain
16 guidance on how to satisfy the Trial Chamber about the admissibility of
17 these. We also at that stage invited you to specify how the documents
18 tendered fitted into the case, and again you've clearly tried to do it
19 through Mr. Coo going too far, as it were, but it can be done either by
20 him or by you in a written filing within acceptable limits. I can't
21 tell -- we can't tell whether Mr. Coo remains an essential witness in the
22 light of this, but we do not mean for one moment to suggest he's not a
23 person who should give evidence here. It's a question of tailoring what's
24 presented to satisfy, first of all, the original decision made; secondly,
25 the various orders about presentation of evidence that have been made; and
1 lastly, the restrictions that apply to a witness of fact.
2 Now, we understood that parties were anxious for an early
3 determination of this. Obviously, it was a major exercise for the Trial
4 Chamber, and this is as quickly as it could be done. That's why this
5 decision has been given orally rather than in writing, because preparing
6 carefully crafted written decision does take a lot of time. I hope that's
7 comprehensive enough, but we are prepared to offer further guidance should
8 parties seek it in relation to particular elements of what has been
9 decided. We hope to be helpful and not to impede the introduction of any
10 evidence that is going to assist us to arrive at a just conclusion.
11 MR. HANNIS: I thank you for that guidance, Your Honour. We will
12 take note of your remarks this morning and work on how we proceed with
13 Mr. Coo. I would inform the Court that we had anticipated filing today a
14 written submission concerning a number of exhibits along the previous
15 guidance you have given us and as we are done for some witnesses like
16 General Vasiljevic and General DZ.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Sorry, there was one other thing I meant to
18 say to you, that I think it is in relation to Vasiljevic that -- yeah.
19 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
20 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm just checking which witness this order relates
21 to, but you may find, if you refer yourself to your own -- to the decision
22 of the 15th of February on the admission of exhibits, and it is in the
23 case of - and it is in relation to Vasiljevic - a good example of you
24 achieving the standards we had set and that you might find following that
25 is the way to proceed.
1 If, Mr. Hannis, you already have in mind a filing, I think it
2 would be unwise to hold it back to add to it. It would be helpful if
3 you've got something ready to tender it as early as possible.
4 MR. HANNIS: No. We do intend to file that today, Your Honour,
5 and then I anticipate we perhaps will be doing another one related to
6 documents regarding Mr. Coo that we don't have on this current list.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
8 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. If there's nothing further, Your Honour,
9 may I be excused?
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: That exhausts the matters that I wish to deal with,
14 but I was told that Mr. Lukic might have procedural issues, also -- or
15 Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: We do, Your Honour. I believe Mr. Fila has the first
17 word on this, though.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.
19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before we bring in the
20 next witness, I wish to raise an issue as follows: Yesterday at 2115,
21 less than 12 hours before the start of the session, I received additional
22 information about Witness Protic from Mr. Stamp, if I'm correct, and at
23 around 11.00 I received this in the Serbian language. Probably the
24 Prosecutor thinks I ought to sit by my screen all night so that I can
25 receive information whenever it suits them. On page 3 of this
1 information - because you know there are manners and politeness to be
2 observed - there are additional comments and suddenly a sentence turned up
3 that the witness was aware that Nikola Sainovic was responsible from
4 Kosovo from 1989, I wish to stress this, for some 20 years.
5 Yesterday I heard from Witness Crosland that he was collecting
6 electricity bills on Kosovo and now we will hear -- excuse me -- yesterday
7 we heard from Witness Kickert that Sainovic collected electricity bills
8 from OIDP down there and now I hear from another witness that he did this
9 for 20 years. I think that according to Rule 65 ter, there's no mention
10 of Sainovic in the documents. I read all the witness statements, including
11 this Protic, but Rule 65 ter on the 10th of May, 2006, has no mention of
12 Sainovic. According to --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Let me interrupt just briefly.
14 Mr. Stamp, is 1989 correct?
15 MR. STAMP: That is what the witness said --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: That's --
17 MR. STAMP: This is supplementary information --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Secondly, are you leading evidence about this?
19 MR. STAMP: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: That answers the question. If it's information
21 given to you about what the witness can say, but the Prosecution do not
22 intend to lead that evidence; therefore, there's no need for them to amend
23 the 65 ter summary.
24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the witness is not to
25 be examined on Sainovic, then I don't need to say this. But if he is
1 examined about Sainovic, I have to object --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: He's not going to be, you've been told, Mr. Fila.
3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I am then very happy that last night at
4 9.00 p.m. I received unnecessary information which made me nervous all
5 night. Thank you. Pay them back.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Our concerns also relate to
8 this material that was received last night and to material that was
9 received I believe March the 6th was the original disclosure of a
10 transcript, a fairly lengthy transcript, from some proceedings in Belgrade
11 relating to this witness. The main problem that we have is that we have
12 been quite anxious for this witness for quite some time to get information
13 from the Office of the Prosecutor since the information disclosed for him
14 was rather scant [Realtime transcript read in error "constant"]. Toward
15 that end, earlier this week I had sent some e-mail inquiries to the Office
16 of the Prosecutor regarding any statements they have of the witness --
17 relating to whether they have any additional witnesses for the witness and
18 in particular an OTP statement for the witness and whether he has been
19 questioned, et cetera, so we can get information and details. The
20 response at that time was no we have nothing. Line 18 of the transcript
21 of this page says "rather constant." I said "rather scant," so that should
22 be corrected.
23 But in any event, we now -- first of all, the testimony that was
24 tendered to us two days ago for the first time gives details that would
25 appear to contradict items that had been disclosed for him previously, but
1 we were not in a position, obviously, to go out into the field and verify
2 some of these matters. In particular he mentions the names of several
3 other individuals, including a General Obrad Stevanovic, who seemed to all
4 of a sudden fit the description of individuals who have previously been
5 identified as Sreten Lukic in the prior statements of the witness. And
6 now where the 65 ter summary for this witness was very, very general and
7 stated that -- left one with the impression that he did not know specific
8 dates for anything.
9 Now all of a sudden in the three pages of supplemental information
10 sheet that we received last night, it's replete with quite specific
11 details that had we had earlier we could have undertaken some efforts to
12 seek out documentation or verification or contradiction for which we could
13 try to confront the witness. The most glaring example I can give you is
14 that in the previous discussions that the -- the previous statements and
15 interviews that were given to us, Mr. Protic claimed that his
16 communications were via mobile phone and did not make any reference to
17 anything else. Now in the supplemental information sheet he gives very
18 specific fixed locations, official phones that he used that, if we had had
19 this knowledge prior to last night, we would have at least tried to have
20 obtained documentation to verify whether, in fact, the phone calls were
21 made from such official land-lines, as he now claims.
22 I really don't know how to -- I don't know what to ask for for
23 relief, Your Honour, so I'm just trying to --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I think we may have reached a witness then where it
25 may be necessary for you at a later stage to invite the Court to re-call
1 him, or it may be that you take advantage of your inability in one sense
2 to confront him and invite us to treat his evidence less -- as less
3 reliable -- or less weighty, I suppose, in light of later evidence you
4 submit in the Defence case, because obviously you still have loads of time
5 to carry out your inquiries and present other material.
6 MR. IVETIC: I agree, Your Honour, I agree. I am just very
7 frustrated at this stage that --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: I think it also has to be said that there has been
9 great difficulty in securing the attendance of this witness, and therefore
10 it's understandable that there may be matters coming to light now. We've
11 been very critical of the Prosecution in general for not interviewing
12 witnesses at an earlier stage, but there's a limit to how easy it might be
13 to do that, and this is one where they plainly have had difficulty.
14 MR. IVETIC: They -- it's my understanding he gave public
15 testimony in Belgrade a month ago and that the OTP did have a
16 representative at those proceedings.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but it's public, Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC: I know.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: And therefore, that applies to both. I assume that
20 you're taking cognizance of these developments, too.
21 MR. IVETIC: I'm trying to as much as we can. So I just want to
22 bring that to Your Honours' attention.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's a very fair way to present this, but
24 we will briefly discuss it and decide whether we think there's anything
25 else that ought be done at this stage.
1 Before doing that, I will hear if Mr. Stamp wants to say anything.
2 MR. STAMP: Just two matters. We disclosed everything we have had
3 from this witness at the earliest available opportunity, firstly; and
4 without sort of doing an inventory of every factual submission by my
5 learned friend just now, which I would not agree with as being entirely
6 correct, I just say that if there are these contradictions, as he has
7 suggested, then there are -- there would be, if they existed, pretty
8 obvious on the face of the documents that he has been given and matters
9 worthy of cross-examination if that is the situation.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: We note the observations that have been made. We
13 will proceed to hear the evidence of this witness. If a remedy is
14 required, we shall deal with that at the stage when the matter is
15 presented to us.
16 MR. STAMP: That witness, Your Honours, is Bozidar Protic.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Protic.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to
23 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed
24 before you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
3 Please make yourself comfortable, Mr. Protic. And I can't see
4 what you've taken from your bag at the moment, but if it is documents
5 please don't refer to them at this stage. Any documents -- oh, it's just
6 simply your glasses. Okay. Thank you.
7 Our system here, which may be different from any other system
8 you've experience of, involves immediate questioning by counsel rather
9 than the Judges. And we start with the Prosecutor, who will ask you
10 questions, and then you will be cross-examined by those counsel for the
11 accused who wish to do so. It may be that there is only one of the
12 Defence counsel who wishes to do so; it's not clear at the moment and it
13 will depend on your evidence. We'll start straight away with the
14 Prosecutor, and that is Mr. Stamp.
15 Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
17 WITNESS: BOZIDAR PROTIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Examination by Mr. Stamp:
20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Protic. Could we start by you stating your full
22 A. Very well. Bozidar Protic.
23 Q. Are you still employed or are you retired?
24 A. Retired.
25 Q. Prior to retirement, what was your job?
1 A. I worked for the Ministry of the Interior as a driver.
2 Q. Were you a member of the police force of the -- the police force
3 of the Ministry of the Interior?
4 A. Yes, I was.
5 Q. For how long?
6 A. From 1975 until the date of my retirement.
7 Q. About when did you retire?
8 A. In 2001.
9 Q. Now, I understand that in respect to certain events that occurred
10 during your employment as a driver with the Ministry of the Interior in
11 1999, you were interviewed by an investigative judge, one Mr. Dilparic,
12 Milan Dilparic on the 5th of December, 2003. Do you recall that?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. And that interview was recorded on tape and the tape was played
15 over to you and you affirmed that it was correct. Do you recall that as
17 A. I remember.
18 Q. A couple years later on the 29th of June, 2006, do you recall
19 giving a sworn statement to the prosecutor Stankovic?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. And that --
22 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. Objection. I don't remember
23 that there is a sworn statement in front of the Prosecutor.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
25 MR. STAMP: Very well. My friend is probably correct, depending
1 on how you use the word.
2 Q. When you gave the statement to Mr. Stankovic, you were cautioned
3 about your obligation to speak the truth under Serbian law and the law in
4 respect to perjury if you did not speak the truth. Is that correct?
5 A. Correct. Judge Dilparic warned me that before the Court I should
6 tell the truth and nothing but the truth, and I did that.
7 Q. Okay. But let's move now to the 29th of June, 2006. You said
8 that that date you gave a statement to the Deputy War Crimes Prime
9 Minister [sic] Dragoljub Stankovic. Do you recall that he cautioned you
10 of your obligation to tell the truth on that occasion and not to withhold
11 information and that false testimony constituted a criminal offence. Do
12 you recall that?
13 MR. LUKIC: Again, mistake, I guess.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: It says here Prime Minister Dragoljub Stankovic. It
16 was the Prosecutor.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well, yes, I note that, and no doubt, it will
18 be corrected. It doesn't alter the question.
19 MR. STAMP:
20 Q. Do you recall that, Mr. Protic?
21 A. I do, yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: If my learned friend could point out in the statement
23 given by -- to the Prosecutor where this witness was cautioned.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the one I have, Mr. Lukic, at the bottom of
25 the first page in the English: "Having been advised pursuant to Article
1 102, paragraph 2 of the ZKP to tell the truth and not withhold
2 information. He was then warned that giving false testimony constitutes a
3 criminal offence."
4 MR. LUKIC: I apologise.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 Mr. Stamp.
7 MR. STAMP:
8 Q. And on the 8th of February this year, that's last month, did you
9 testify in respect to the same matters in a trial in Belgrade before the
10 Belgrade District Court?
11 A. Yes, I testified there.
12 Q. And have you had an opportunity to review the record of these
13 three different occasions when you spoke about these events in 1999?
14 A. Yes. After each of my testimonies, I was given records of my
16 Q. And was what you said in -- on each of those three occasions true,
17 to the best of your knowledge and belief?
18 A. Yes, of course.
19 Q. You did, however, indicate that there were a couple matters you
20 wanted to correct, and I'd like to just take you through them briefly. In
21 this statement you gave to Mr. Stankovic at pages 3 to 4 of the English
22 version, and it's 2 to 3 of the B/C/S version, we see at the top of the
23 English version here it is written: "I made three trips to the 13th May
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
22 MR. STAMP:
23 Q. It is stated in the record by Prosecutor Stankovic that when you
24 spoke to Mr. Sreten Lukic, he addressed you by your first name. Is that
25 correct? How did he address you?
1 A. By my family name, Protic.
2 MR. LUKIC: Can we refrain from the leading questions from now on,
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
5 MR. STAMP: Very well, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: It's possibly fortunate that the answer was not
7 contained in the question on this particular occasion.
8 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, I do believe I lead in respect to what is
9 already said in the statements.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that, but this is a good example of
11 where I think it's not a good idea.
12 MR. STAMP: Very well.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: It undoubtedly will devalue the evidence in this
14 sort of situation. If you feel the need to ask questions orally of a
15 witness who has already answered many questions in writing, I think they
16 still need to be open questions; otherwise, their value will be lost. And
17 I think the objection is well-founded in relation to this particular
19 MR. STAMP: Very well, Your Honour.
20 There might be an issue with respect to security of a witness, and
21 I'm wondering if perhaps we could go into private session briefly for me
22 to raise it.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Private session, please.
24 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
8 MR. STAMP:
9 Q. You are telling us how Mr. Lukic addressed you. What did he call
11 A. Normally, the senior -- the superiors or supervisors would address
12 their subordinates by their first name unless they were officially
13 informing them of something.
14 Q. What name did Mr. Lukic use to refer to you? What did he call you
15 when he spoke with you?
16 A. Normally he would address me by my last name.
17 Q. And at other times what would he call you?
18 A. He always addressed me by my last name, if I remember correctly.
19 Q. Did he have a particular way of addressing you when he addressed
20 you by your last name? What word did he use, if you can recall, to speak
21 to you?
22 A. Protic.
23 Q. Very well. If we could move to --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there a passage we should be looking at in this
25 connection, Mr. Stamp?
1 MR. STAMP: This is in the English transcript. This is the
2 third-to-last paragraph and it is in the last three lines. He just --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: On what page, sorry?
4 MR. STAMP: Page 2.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Of -- page 2.
6 MR. STAMP: The record of Mr. Stankovic reads: "I suppose that he
7 recognised my voice, as he addressed me by my first name," and the witness
8 says he addressed him as Protic.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry. I don't seem to have that. This is
10 page 2 of --
11 MR. STAMP: Page 2 of --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: You said it was the last three lines of a page.
13 MR. STAMP: The last three lines of the third-to-last paragraph of
14 page 2.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, I see. Yes. Thank you. Yes. Thank you.
16 MR. STAMP: Your Honour -- Your Honours.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP: Because of the circumstances in which we managed to
19 get this testimony or this witness here, we have sent the material as
20 quickly as it was available. We sent originally the draft transcript to
21 the CLSS to prepare official, final transcript as early as possible, and
22 when we got that we sent them. I think that Your Honours should have the
23 last final translations from CLSS. So if it is not you do have --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: No. I've found it now. I just was looking in the
25 wrong place. Sorry. Thank you.
1 MR. STAMP: Very well. Thank you.
2 Q. The last correction we could make, Mr. Protic, if we then move on.
3 It is recorded at page 7 of the English version of the transcript of your
4 testimony in February that you stopped by at the station in -- the police
5 station in Kladovo and spoke to chief Sperlic. Is that name correct,
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. Can you remember the name of the chief of police in Kladovo at the
10 A. Yes. His last name is Sperlic.
11 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, the statement or the transcript of the
12 interview by the investigating judge dated the 5th of December, 2003, is
13 marked P2816. The statement the witness made to the Prosecutor Stankovic
14 of the 29th of June, 2006, is marked P2817. And his testimony before the
15 district court in Belgrade is marked 2824, that testimony dated the 8th of
16 February, 2007. I tender the three documents, subject to the correction
17 that he has just made, and ask that they be received in evidence under
18 Rule 89(F) in lieu of oral testimony he could give in this court.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I think that we have already
21 announced that we are going to object the admission of the testimony from
22 this year that has been disclosed to us late, and we also think that,
23 actually, none of these statements could be admitted under 92 ter rule. I
24 would leave it to Your Honours to decide on that. Definitely we would
25 object the last one.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: The motion is to admit them under 89(F).
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 MR. LUKIC: Because in the 65 ter statement of this witness it's
4 under 92 ter, so it's -- created the confusion. But anyways we would
5 object if it's proposed to be admitted under 89(F).
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE BONOMY: The only suggested basis for opposing this is the
10 late notification. That's an issue we've really dealt with already in the
11 earlier decision made in relation to Mr. Ivetic's objection and therefore
12 we will admit these three documents.
13 I would just like to try to clarify one thing, and that is the
14 reference on page 2 of the English. But what I would like on the screen
15 is the third-last paragraph in English on page 2 in the B/C/S, and that's
16 of P2816. Now, that's not the document I have got as 2816. Is the 5th
17 of -- sorry. No. It is my mistake. Sorry. It's 2817.
18 Mr. Protic, you'll see on the screen part of your statement which
19 you gave to the Prosecutor Stankovic, and if you look at the large
20 paragraph filling the middle of the page, the centre of the page mainly,
21 and go to the end of that paragraph, could you read to me the last two
22 sentences. The part where it says: "I suppose that he recognised my
23 voice ..." Could you read that and the rest to the end of the paragraph,
24 that's two sentences at the end. Read it aloud, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure what it is that I'm
1 supposed to read.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: You see the -- on your screen at the moment, the
3 top paragraph that you can see on the screen, go to the end of that
4 paragraph and read to me the last two sentences.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "On the first occasion he ordered me
6 to go to Janjevo and to report," is that the part.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: No. It's the part immediately before that, the end
8 of the paragraph above that, the very end of it, the last two sentences.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the part where it says: "I
10 presume" --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I presume that he recognised my
13 voice, too, because he addressed me by name. And on that occasion…
14 JUDGE BONOMY: That's fine. Stop there. Read it again, the same
15 sentence, read it again, please.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I presume that he recognised my
17 voice, too, because he addressed me by name." It should in fact say "by
18 my last name."
19 JUDGE BONOMY: But I wanted to check the accuracy of our English
20 translation, and it would appear that we have an inaccurate English
21 translation which is not a matter for you, but that's why we were trying
22 to clarify it.
23 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour, you have exact translation. He made
24 mistake. He said differently today.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: That, Mr. Lukic, is a matter for cross-examination.
1 MR. LUKIC: But the translation was not wrong and is not wrong.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well --
3 MR. LUKIC: The translation is correct.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: No. The witness has read the words in B/C/S --
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: -- and the interpreter has interpreted them. Are
7 you challenging that interpretation?
8 MR. LUKIC: No, but we have different in the statement and in the
9 testimony today; that's what I'm telling you.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: All I'm clarifying is what the witness said in his
11 statement, and it's inaccurately translated in English as I understand it
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, in B/C/S "ime" is first name,
14 "prezime" is last name, so it is not incorrectly translated --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: You --
16 MR. IVETIC: -- correct the translation.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on. What you're doing is challenging the
18 translation, as I understand it. You're challenging what the interpreter
19 has just told us the witness said. And if that's the case, I will have it
20 reported upon by CLSS, as we have done in the past. But let's be clear
21 what it is we are challenging. Now, you're challenging the way in which
22 the interpreter today has translated the words of Mr. Protic. Is that
24 MR. LUKIC: In line -- Your Honour, in line 23, page 23, line 18,
25 it's correctly translated. "I presume" -- it just escaped. "I presumed
1 that he recognised my voice, too, because he addressed me by name" --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: That's the -- that's fine, and that's what I
3 understood the interpreter to say. But that's not what the English says.
4 The English translation says: "By my first name," and that's the bit I
5 was clarifying.
6 MR. LUKIC: Name, first name is the same meaning in B/C/S.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well --
8 MR. LUKIC: That can be checked.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Is the interpreter able to give any guidance on
11 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the B/C/S term "ime" can indeed be
12 interpreted both as first name and as name. The interpreter strived to
13 take the neutral form.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Note of the French booth: In the Serbian
15 version it is the word "first name" which is used and not just "name" or
16 "surname." It is first name.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Stamp, it's back to you now.
18 MR. STAMP:
19 Q. Well, whatever the translation is here, Mr. Protic, you recall
20 what he would call you. What would he call you on formal occasions when
21 you were among other police personnel?
22 A. In the presence of others, by my last name officially as Protic.
23 When we were on our own sometimes he would call me Protic and sometimes
25 Q. Mr. Protic, it is perhaps unclear from the three statements
1 exactly where you went to and where you delivered bodies to on the four
2 trips that you spoke of. So I'm just going to ask you quickly to take us
3 through them one by one.
4 On the first trip, where did you collect bodies from and where did
5 you deliver them to?
6 A. On the first occasion I received orders from my immediate superior
7 Dragic Nenadic, who told me that he had spoken to General Zekovic, and he
8 told me that through my friends I should find a truck for me to carry out
9 a task which was very important and which was in the interest of the
10 state. I did that. I had a friend, Tode Kurbalija, a refugee from
11 Croatia, who had a Mercedes truck with a temporary licence plate, 18BG and
12 the year.
13 Q. Thank you. Excuse me, Mr. Protic. What you just told us is in
14 two of the statements we have before us. I just simply want to clarify:
15 From where did you pick up bodies on your first trip and where did you
16 deliver them to?
17 A. A place called Tekija, not far from Kladovo, from a refrigerator
18 truck which had appeared from the Danube. And the bodies were put from
19 there onto the truck and I drove them to Batajnica. And that was the
20 first trip I made of that nature.
21 Q. How many bodies were there? Just a number. Give me a figure.
22 How many bodies were there?
23 A. Fifty-four.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. STAMP: Could we pull up P600.
1 This is an item which is already in evidence, Your Honours. I do
2 apologise. It is not indicated on the notification, but it should not
3 present much of a problem, I don't think. It is a photograph.
4 Could you just blow it up a little bit.
5 Q. Do you recognise this vehicle, Mr. Protic?
6 A. Yes, it is a Mercedes truck. It's got a -- it's green and it has
7 a white container on top and it said "Mesna Industrija," meat industry
9 Q. Well, have you seen this truck before, the one depicted in this
10 picture; and where, if you have?
11 A. Yes, I saw it in the place called Tekija after it was dragged out
12 of the Danube, and later on in pieces near Petrovo Selo where it was
13 destroyed with explosives.
14 Q. Did this truck contain -- when you saw it in Tekija first, did it
15 contain anything? What were the contents of the truck when you saw it in
16 Tekija first?
17 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you have the answer to that at line 15, on
18 page 26, as complete an answer, I think, as you could expect.
19 MR. STAMP: Very well. I was hoping that he would refer to the
20 particular truck and --
21 Q. When you saw it destroyed -- or could I ask you to explain what
22 you mean when you say that you saw it later in pieces near Petrovo Selo
23 where it was destroyed in pieces. When was it that you saw it in pieces?
24 A. I saw it in pieces when I brought the next load of bodies from the
25 place called Janjevo. I passed by the truck, very close by it, before
1 entering the centre. It was on a clearing on the right-hand side.
2 Q. How did you come to know that it was destroyed by explosives?
3 A. I heard from the people who were working there, and also I
4 recognised the truck because I was familiar with parts of it. I could
5 recognise them.
6 Q. You said your second trip, just now, was from Janjevo to Petrovo
7 Selo; that's correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How many bodies did you transport on that occasion?
10 A. Seventeen or 19. I think it's more likely to be 17.
11 Q. And the third trip was -- where did you collect the bodies and
12 where did you deliver them to?
13 A. The southern part of Kosovska Mitrovica, near the freight railway
14 station, in a wood industry shed where there were channels for fixing
15 machinery and vehicles.
16 Q. And where did you deliver them to?
17 A. To Petrovo Selo.
18 Q. Was this a different area in Petrovo Selo as the previous trip or
19 was it the same place?
20 A. The same place near the centre, but not the same pit. It was
21 another pit very close to the first one; less than 50 or 60 metres apart,
22 they were.
23 Q. About how many bodies did you transport on that trip?
24 A. Fifty-five or 56. Over 50.
25 Q. The fourth and final trip that you made, where did you collect the
1 bodies and where did you deliver them to?
2 A. More or less in the centre of Pristina, near the publishing house
3 or the newspaper house. It was called Rilindija. There was a
4 refrigerator truck on the parking lot. It was the largest size that such
5 trucks come in.
6 Q. And where did you take these bodies to?
7 A. To Batajnica, to the centre for special units.
8 Q. Now, about how many bodies did you take on that fourth trip?
9 A. The refrigerator truck was closed. (redacted)
12 (redacted). I didn't see
13 them myself.
14 Q. Now, in your statement you told us that General Zekovic gave you
15 the phone number --
16 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, which statement?
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: I just need to know which statement because we have
20 MR. STAMP:
21 Q. In the statement that you gave to Mr. Stankovic and in -- in both
22 the statements that you gave to Mr. Stankovic and the interview with
23 Mr. Dilparic you said that you got the orders to go and collect the bodies
24 from General Zekovic, and in both of those statements you also said that
25 you were given a contact phone number to call when you were in Kosovo, on
1 the three occasions that you went to Kosovo.
2 On the first occasion you went to Kosovo, where did you call from?
3 A. The first time that I went to Kosovo, it was during the bombing.
4 The police headquarters did not have a constant location but moved around,
5 depending on the situation, for security reasons.
6 The first time I went to Pristina, the headquarters was across the
7 road from the Bozur Hotel in the very centre of Pristina. It was on the
8 fourth floor. I went up there. I dialled the number mentioned here.
9 That's a Belgrade number without an extension before it for Belgrade or
10 for Pristina. I contacted a person who told me how I should act; that I
11 should go in the direction of Skopje. There would be a Golf car driving
12 in front of me, it would be a dark red colour, metallic, that I should
13 follow that car and that everything would proceed as agreed, everything
14 would be all right.
15 Q. Why did you call from the police headquarters?
16 A. I got that number when I set out from Belgrade. That was my
17 connection so that I wouldn't waste time because the matter was urgent.
18 Q. Now, you called from the police headquarters. Why did you call
19 from that place?
20 A. From Pristina. Well, that was the safest place. I thought it was
21 my service, my people. Why would someone else have to listen to this
22 conversation? And I was told I could use the telephone in the
24 Q. Who told you that?
25 A. General Zekovic, when I set out from Belgrade. And every time I
1 set out from Belgrade I received all my instructions from General Zekovic.
2 Q. Now, during that time, could you normally call a Belgrade number
3 from Kosovo without using the area code?
4 A. Only from the headquarters. From elsewhere in the town you would
5 have to dial the area code, but in the Pristina headquarters there was
6 always a direct line, as if you were calling to Belgrade from Belgrade.
7 That was the case in Bujanovac. And it was a special line, a special
8 connection, between the headquarters and the MUP, and I thought it was
9 normal for that to be so.
10 Q. Well, we have your statements to Mr. Stankovic and Mr. Dilparic in
11 which you said that you spoke to Mr. Lukic, and you told us in the
12 statement that you gave to Mr. Stankovic what he said to you on the first
13 occasion, that is, when you took the bodies from Janjevo to Petrovo Selo.
14 When I say "first occasion," I mean the first occasion you went to Kosovo
15 which would be the second trip you made. Can you --
16 MR. LUKIC: If it can be -- if it just can be pointed out where in
17 the Dilparic statement we can find this.
18 MR. STAMP: I'm sorry, it's not in Mr. Dilparic's statement.
19 MR. LUKIC: Then rephrase the question, please.
20 MR. STAMP:
21 Q. On the second occasion when you went to Kosovo, did you call the
22 number you were given?
23 A. Always the same number.
24 Q. And did you call it? Did you dial it on the second occasion?
25 A. Oh, yes, yes. Yes.
1 Q. Now, you said you spoke to Mr. Lukic. Can you tell us what he
2 said to you on the second occasion that you went to Kosovo.
3 A. When I dialled the number, I was almost sure it was Lukic's
4 voice. Whether it would be --
5 Q. Well, we are going to get to that. The question is: What did he
6 say to you when you dialled the number on the second occasion that you
7 went to Kosovo to collect bodies?
8 A. That voice, let's say, told me that I should go in the direction
9 of Skopje, that I would have a Golf car driving in front of me, dark red
10 metallic in colour, and that I should follow it, which is what I did of
11 course. In the direction of Skopje at the crossroads for Lipljani and
12 Janjevo, I turned left towards Janjevo. The Golf stayed there and I drove
13 on for another kilometre or a kilometre and a half and arrived in the
14 centre of Janjevo where I was met by the local policemen. There was a
15 Niva-make car in which they set out in front of me toward the hills. I
16 drove the truck as far as I could, and when I could go no further, I
18 On that occasion there was a small loader, a tractor with a scoop
19 in front and one in back. One was wider and one was smaller, a bucket.
20 It went to the nearby woods. I could hear the sound of the machine
21 working. I waited about half an hour. A tractor full of soil turned up.
22 They tipped up the trailer and this one loaded the bodies onto my truck.
23 That was that second trip.
24 Q. Okay. Very well. Now, as I said, this is in your statement
25 already and we have time limitations, so, Mr. Protic, I'm going to ask you
1 to please just answer the questions directly.
2 You said that that was your second trip just now. Can you recall
3 whether or not --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- on the occasion that you went to Janjevo, whether it was the
6 first trip or the second trip? I ask you because in the statement that
7 you gave to Mr. Stankovic, at page 2 in the English version, you say: "On
8 the first occasion he ordered me to go to Janjevo and report to the local
9 police." Was that the second or the first trip to Kosovo?
10 A. In connection with the bodies or in general?
11 Q. In connection with the bodies you are speaking of.
12 A. The first trip.
13 Q. Thank you. What I'm asking you now is when you called the number
14 on the second trip that you made to Kosovo in connection with collecting
15 bodies, what did he say to you on that occasion?
16 A. The voice on the phone told me on the second occasion that I
17 should go to Kosovska Mitrovica, to the southern part, near the cargo
18 railway station, and there I would be met by the people I should contact.
19 Q. You told us earlier that you carried those bodies that you
20 collected there to Petrovo Selo. Who told you to take those bodies to
21 Petrovo Selo? Or why did you take them to Petrovo Selo?
22 A. The voice -- well, I followed orders, of course. The voice on the
23 other end of the telephone line told me that I should go to Petrovo Selo,
24 that I should drive there.
25 Q. And on the third occasion, when you said you drove --
1 A. On the third occasion, it was the same telephone, the same
2 voice --
3 Q. What did that voice --
4 A. -- to Batajnica.
5 Q. Well, could you just tell us what the person told you.
6 A. That person told me to go to the parking lot behind the Rilindija
7 building, and there were trucks there. I would be met there by some men
8 who would tell me which truck to take. There were four or five other
9 trucks on the parking lot and that truck, the one I was told to take.
10 Q. Who met you there?
11 A. Policemen, local policemen or perhaps reserve police officers. I
12 don't know because I hadn't seen them before that.
13 Q. Can you say what rank they were, generally speaking?
14 A. Those were police officers' insignia.
15 Q. Do you recall the ranks of these persons, the highest rank of
16 anybody you saw there?
17 A. When? On which occasion?
18 Q. The third occasion you went to Kosovo in connection with the
20 A. No, no. I didn't see any senior ranks, any high ranks.
21 Q. Okay. On that occasion you took the bodies to the 13th May police
22 centre in Batajnica. Why did you take the bodies there?
23 A. That was what I was told.
24 Q. By who?
25 A. The voice I had the telephone contact with.
1 Q. Okay. Now, on the second occasion you went to Kosovo and you went
2 to the southern part of Kosovska Mitrovica and collected bodies, you were
3 met at the place the bodies were by whom, by members of what organisation?
4 A. There were several people there. In my estimate, around 15 of
5 them. They were all in civilian clothes.
6 Q. Did they belong to any organisation?
7 A. Yes, those were chiefs of secretariats sent to Kosovo from Serbian
8 municipal secretariats.
9 Q. That is chiefs of secretariats of the MUP?
10 A. Yes, yes. And heads of crime services of their respective
12 Q. I'd like to direct you to a couple areas of the statements that
13 you gave, the statement you gave on the occasion to Prosecutor Stankovic
14 and your sworn evidence to the Belgrade court last month. I'm going to
15 ask you a question. You said in the statement to Mr. Stankovic:
16 "I was supposed to call a land-line" -- and that's page 2, the
17 middle paragraph.
18 "I was supposed to call a land-line telephone number 011-281-9074
19 but without dialing the area code number. In all three instances when I
20 dialled this number, the telephone was answered by General Sreten Lukic,
21 who was one of the assistant ministers and a commander of all police
22 forces in Kosovo-Metohija. I knew General Sreten Lukic personally and I
23 could recognise his voice because I was his driver for six months. I
24 often drove him to Kosovo-Metohija and spoke with him on the phone;
25 therefore, I can state without doubt that I could recognise his voice,
1 which made it unnecessary for him to introduce himself because I knew who
2 I was speaking to."
3 MR. LUKIC: We have to object to this kind of leading questions to
4 the witness, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: We haven't reached the question yet, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: Exactly. This is the speech.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but it's not immediately obvious that it can
8 be objected to because all that's being referred to is evidence already
9 given by the witness. So we repel that objection.
10 Please continue, Mr. Stamp.
11 MR. STAMP:
12 Q. And when you gave testimony to the court in Belgrade, at page 19
13 of the English transcript you said:
14 "Knowing that I was at the staff and he was Chief of Staff and I
15 drove Obrad while in the staff, we often talked on the telephone. The
16 Belgrade number I called, I am 99 per cent and even 100 per cent sure that
17 I contacted Lukic."
18 And at page 27 you said to the Belgrade court again: "It is my
19 deep conviction that says I was 99.9 per cent sure that it was the voice
20 of General Lukic."
21 But the first question is something about before but on this
22 specific issue: Is the evidence you gave under oath to the Belgrade court
23 and the statement you gave to Mr. Stankovic true or not true?
24 A. True.
25 Q. You said you were the driver of Mr. Lukic. When were you his
1 driver? What period?
2 A. In 1990, or rather, from 1990, or rather, in the 1990s on and off
3 because I would work for him and then have a bit of time off.
4 Q. When, if you can remember, was the last period in the 1990s that
5 you were his driver?
6 A. I can't pin-point the exact date.
7 Q. Apart from driving for him, did you have any other opportunity
8 prior to -- to the circumstances when you made these three calls from
9 Kosovo that we just spoke of to hear him speak?
10 A. At the time, I was able to recognise all the voices I would hear
11 over the telephone without the persons introducing themselves. Even now
12 of course, I could do that.
13 Q. Very well --
14 A. Can do that.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
16 MR. STAMP:
17 Q. How long have you known Mr. Lukic?
18 A. I have been or I had been working in the service since 1975, and
19 then with the start of the 1980s as the unrest in Kosovo escalated and
21 Q. So would you say that you -- well, let me just ask the question.
22 Approximately how long - I know you can't be exact - have you known
23 General Lukic?
24 A. For some ten years.
25 Q. Well, we are in 2007 now. Ten years would take us back to
1 1999 [sic] --
2 A. But you have to count in the five years I have been retired. I
3 was talking about the period up to the date of retirement. It was ten
4 years up to that point.
5 Q. Very well.
6 Before I move on from that, you say that -- or do you know how
7 many trucks with bodies were taken to Batajnica? You have told us that
8 you took two loads. Do you know how many loads in all were taken there
9 from Kosovo?
10 A. According to the stories of how many bodies were uncovered,
14 Q. Sorry.
15 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, that answer that --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: It will be attended to, Mr. Stamp.
17 MR. STAMP:
18 Q. Just answer this question without calling any names. How many
19 trucks do you know -- or how many truck-loads do you know of bodies were
20 taken to Batajnica, apart from the two you took there?
21 A. The truck from Zajecar which transported some 20 bodies but then
22 broke down. Do you want to count that one in? And then there was the
23 refrigerator truck, or are you referring to something extra?
24 Q. Just how many trucks, apart from your two trips, how many
25 deliveries of bodies do you know of to Batajnica?
1 A. I can tell you the persons who did the trips, but how many trips
2 they did, I don't know. I can tell you who drove the trucks in addition
3 to me, and then you should ask them about the number of trips made.
4 Q. Very well. Who drove the trucks --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's go into private session for that, please.
6 MR. STAMP: Yes, please.
7 [Private session]
14 --- Recess taken at 10.47 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Protic, I'd like to turn to the circumstances in which you
20 retired from the police force. After --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that would mean we can go back into public
23 MR. STAMP: Yes, yes, I'm so sorry. We should be in public
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
2 MR. STAMP:
3 Q. You said you were in Bujanovac and a doctor from the MUP came
4 there and spoke to you. Firstly, what were you doing in Bujanovac, were
5 you working there or not?
6 A. After my return from Kosovo, I was sent to Bujanovac, also to the
7 staff in the so-called land zone.
8 Q. Just where is Bujanovac?
9 A. In the south of Serbia, near to Vranje near to the Macedonian
10 border --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part of
12 his answer.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Protic, could you give that answer again. You
14 said in the south of Serbia. Could you continue from there because the
15 interpreter did not catch what you said.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the south of Serbia near to the
17 Macedonian border and the Kosovo border; the closest town in Kosovo is
19 MR. STAMP:
20 Q. You said a doctor spoke to you.
21 MR. STAMP: I am referring to matters that are on page 9 of this
22 interview with Mr. Dilparic.
23 Q. You said a doctor spoke to you. Who is this doctor, can you
24 recall his name?
25 A. Can I give you his last name?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Dr. Batnozic.
3 Q. What was his position then when he spoke to you?
4 A. He holds the rank of colonel and is the chief of medical corps of
5 the MUP of Serbia.
6 Q. Now, do you remember when he spoke to you about retirement?
7 A. At the time, a multi-ethnic police force was supposed to be set up
8 down there at Bujanovac composed of Albanians and Serbs. They were
9 supposed to work as a unified force, and it was supposed to be
10 operational. And he was down there at Bujanovac with a medical team to
11 carry out regular medical check-ups in order to select the possible
12 candidates for the police force. His -- he was stationed at the Bujanovac
14 Q. Yes. When, when did he speak to you about retirement?
15 A. In 2001.
16 Q. Well, do you remember the month in 2001 that you retired?
17 A. Yes, yes, I do. I have a decision with me to that effect. I can
18 show it to you and it bears the date of my retirement.
19 Q. Do you remember the month that you retired?
20 A. At the end of 2001.
21 Q. Well, which month? Very well.
22 MR. STAMP: Could the witness be allowed to look at his document?
23 Q. What document do you have there that you want to look at?
24 A. The decision on my retirement.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you give the document to the usher, please;
1 he'll show it to me.
2 MR. STAMP: A copy of this document was disclosed to the Defence,
3 and there's a translation here in English. The Prosecution are not really
4 intending to use this document, but if he cannot remember the --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: It seems reasonable.
6 Mr. Lukic, have you any objection to this?
7 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour, we don't.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Can you just confirm the date of your retirement from that
10 document, please. Tell us -- tell us the date.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 28th of December, 2001.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 Mr. Stamp.
14 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
15 Q. About how long before that were you -- were you approached by this
16 doctor, the colonel, in Bujanovac?
17 A. Since I spent the total of six months at Bujanovac when the
18 refrigerator truck case started, that's to say the transportation of dead
19 bodies, I followed the press and I cut out all the articles related to
20 this issue. I would have the clips taken out and I set them aside.
21 Q. Just give me a time-period, a time-period, about how long before
22 your retirement officially did the doctor speak to you about retirement?
23 A. One month, approximately one month.
24 Q. And you say -- well, who approached who? Did you approach him or
25 did he approach you?
1 A. He approached me, and he advised me that since I had spent a great
2 deal of time in the -- working in the field that I should get retired and
3 that the circumstances were propitious for that at that moment. Later on
4 I realised that conditions for retirement at the time were, in fact, not
6 Q. Very well. Now, this you say was at about the time when the issue
7 of the refrigerator truck being found was in the press? Don't nod. Is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Now, did that colonel, doctor, tell you to go anywhere or do
12 A. I don't understand the question.
13 Q. What did you do next, if anything, in respect to your retirement
14 after he spoke with you?
15 A. He told me, when you come down for a weekend, that I should get in
16 touch with him, that he had the people who do -- take care of the matter
17 and that it would only take a couple of days.
18 Q. And go down to where? Where was he referring to?
19 A. That I should get in touch with him whenever I come to Belgrade
20 for a weekend, that he would see to the matter, that they would expedite
21 the procedure, and that it would all be over in a matter of days.
22 Q. Well, did you do anything having -- him having told you that?
23 A. Since I had spent a lot of time out afield and that I had worked a
24 great deal more than any of my other colleagues in the service, I
25 contemplated the idea.
1 Q. And did you act upon it?
2 A. Of course I did, yes, yes.
3 Q. What --
4 A. I came to him.
5 Q. Where?
6 A. His office in the building where his headquarters was.
7 Q. In which city?
8 A. In Belgrade.
9 Q. Now, did he direct you to do anything from there?
10 A. No, he only said I should contact him and that he would do
11 everything, and he did.
12 Q. And what did he do?
13 A. He sent me to the health centre of the MUP in Durmitorska Street
14 where the headquarters are -- is, and there I addressed the doctor from
15 the commission who took me to two or three offices, and it was all over in
16 a day.
17 Q. Were you examined medically?
18 A. Well, if you think that a conversation amounts to a medical
19 examination, then yes. There were no blood tests, no heart echoes or
20 things like that.
21 Q. Do you know on what grounds you retired?
22 A. I was immediately told what my diagnosis was, yes, I can tell you
23 if you're interested.
24 Q. Please, go on.
25 A. Allegedly I had high blood sugar, 20 units. I had arrhythmic
1 beating of the heart, and a neuropsychiatrist said that I had night sweats
2 and nightmares of being persecuted in closed spaces. None of this is
3 true. Then the commission was scheduled, and I was there with the workers
4 from Zajecar, not the workers from Belgrade. I was among the first to be
5 called. When I entered before the commission, they immediately
6 congratulated me and they said, You're a pensioner as from now. And that
7 was the end of it. I wasn't with the commission from Belgrade because my
8 colleagues from Belgrade knew me and they would have been surprised, how
9 come I was being pensioned off when I had never even been on sick leave.
10 Q. Thanks. Now, can we move on quickly, Mr. Protic. Do you recall
11 that you were interviewed on many occasions by a team in respect to the
12 truck with bodies that was found in the Danube in respect that
13 investigation in the year 2001 and that team was led by Mr. Karleusa and
14 Mr. Furdulovic do you recall that? Please speak your answer.
15 Do you remember that you were interviewed by Mr. Karleusa and
16 Mr. Furdulovic in 2001 in respect to the matters you have testified about?
17 A. Yes, I remember that, and the same Karleusa and Furdulovic later
18 took me to Petrovo Selo to show them the spot where I had unloaded the
19 bodies, and I did that, of course.
20 Q. Were you present when that area in Petrovo Selo was exhumed, was
21 dug up?
22 A. I pointed to the spot where I had unloaded that, and I was present
23 until they found the first body. When they assured themselves that this
24 was correct, then I was free to go and I was not present any longer.
25 Q. After the statement or the interviews conducted by Mr. Karleusa's
1 team, you and -- that is Exhibit P586 I think the report is there.
2 MR. STAMP: We will not call it up, Your Honours. I just do that
3 for the purpose of cross-reference.
4 Q. You spoke with -- in the interview we spoke of earlier with Judge
5 Dilparic. Now, in neither of those interviews is it recorded that you
6 said that you called and spoke with Sreten Lukic when you went to Kosovo
7 to collect bodies. I'd like you to tell the Court why is it on both of
8 these occasions when you had the opportunity to do so, you did not mention
9 that it was Sreten Lukic that you called when you went to Kosovo to
10 collect the bodies.
11 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. I have to object to the form
12 of the question because my learned friend is judging now in advance that
13 this was Sreten Lukic, and we will show you that it wasn't. So rephrase
14 the question and -- he should rephrase the question and put it in the
15 manner the witness answered, and maybe to ask him whether it's true or not
16 or -- and why it's not true.
17 MR. STAMP: That type of objection is --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: I -- we repel that objection, Mr. Stamp, and we'll
19 allow you to ask the question. The objection is unfounded.
20 MR. STAMP: One also has to, if I may say so, Your Honour, be
21 sensitive to the circumstances of some witnesses and ought to be careful
22 in the way objections are expressed, in that -- when I say one ought to be
23 careful in the way objections are expressed --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I can see nothing wrong with the way in which that
25 objection was expressed except that it was without any foundation.
1 MR. STAMP: Very well. I'll move on.
2 Q. Why on those previous occasions when you had the opportunity to do
3 so did you not mention that -- the contact, that you called with Sreten
5 A. First of all, if I was pensioned off in two days' time and I would
6 have had to work for another five years in normal circumstances and my
7 wife was employed in the ministry, as were my son and daughter, I was
8 afraid that they would be dealt with in the same way I had. That's all I
9 can say.
10 Q. At the time when you gave those two statements I just referred to,
11 what was the official position of Sreten Lukic, do you know?
12 A. He was the chief of the sector and he was the assistant minister
13 of public security.
14 Q. You said --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying that your wife and your son and
16 daughter were employed by the ministry?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They still are.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 MR. STAMP:
20 Q. In your interview with Judge Dilparic -- and I refer to the
21 bottom -- the last few lines of page 13 in English -- maybe I should just
22 correct something before I proceed with the question.
23 It is written here in English: "When I got the summons to come to
24 the office of The Hague Tribunal in Jevrema Grujica Street I called the
25 Chef de Cabinet Sreten Lukic as I had done when I got the summons and I
1 informed the MUP that I had received the summons and what to do. They
2 took my telephone number and said they would get back to me. They never
3 called me, and on every previous occasion before I received the summons,
4 they would ring me and send a car for me to take me to the interview and I
5 would get instructions what I was to say and how."
6 Firstly it says here: "I called the chef de cabinet Sreten
7 Lukic ..." Did you actually call Sreten Lukic or did you call the chef de
8 cabinet of Sreten Lukic?
9 A. All the conversations with Sreten Lukic are done through the chef
10 de cabinet. His name was Zoran Alimpic and it was him I called on that
11 occasion and I told him that I had received the summons for 1330 in the
12 Palace of Justice in the war crimes --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: You've answered the question.
14 Please, Mr. Stamp.
15 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
16 Q. You said on previous occasions they would ring you, send a car for
17 you to take you to the interview, and you'd get instructions or you'd get
18 instructions what you were to say and how. And you were asked who would
19 call you, and you said Karleusa. What I'd like to ask you is this: What
20 do you mean when you said that you would get instructions what you were to
21 say and how? Can you just explain that.
22 A. The chief of Karleusa always sent a driver to pick me up and take
23 me to the centre at Makis to come and give a statement or what I knew
24 about the events at the time. Mr. Karleusa never told me what to say. He
25 always told me that I should only tell the truth because I had no reasons
1 to conceal or withhold anything. So I said everything, both to Judge
2 Dilparic and to the special court. I wasn't trying to incriminate anyone,
3 I wasn't trying to invent charges against someone because I had a grudge
4 or anything like that. I was simply and purely telling the truth.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Stamp, we've I think reached the point
6 where you've had as much time as you can have today.
7 MR. STAMP: And, Your Honours, as a matter of fact, when the
8 witness said: "I was simply and purely telling the truth," I was just
9 about to say that I had nothing further for the witness.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 Mr. Lukic, are you the only counsel with cross-examination?
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I suppose so.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue then.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Protic. My name is Branko
17 Lukic, and I appear for General Sreten Lukic. I will have quite a few
18 questions for you, and I ask you to concentrate and to give answers that
19 are as precise as possible. You were asked before the court in Belgrade,
20 as there seems to be a misunderstanding about your address in the
21 Obalski Radnika Street?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How did you come by that flat or apartment?
24 A. I heard that the MUP had 16 vacant flats in that location intended
25 for the Milicionar sports club and I moved in in order to get away from
1 Batajnica, because Batajnica holds very bad memories for me. I wanted --
2 or rather, I didn't want to spend the rest of my life in Batajnica or even
3 to pass through it.
4 Q. But you entered that flat illegally. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it is correct.
6 Q. You asked Sreten Lukic to give you a flat when he was head of
7 public security and he refused. Is that correct?
8 A. Mr. Lukic offered me a vacant flat which had in it a policeman who
9 was an invalid. He had been injured in Kosovo and he had three children.
10 He sent me to see that flat and evict that man and move in. I would never
11 have done that even if I had had to live in a tent.
12 Q. But your son lives in the flat you left?
13 A. Yes. That's my flat, my wife and I got 50/50 each of that flat,
14 and my son remained in that flat with his wife and two children.
15 Q. Today you're saying what you're saying for the very reason -- and
16 you're incriminating Sreten Lukic for the very reason that he did not give
17 you unlawfully a second flat; he refused to break the law. You already
18 had received a flat and you asked him to do that while he was holding the
19 post of chief of the public security sector. Is that correct?
20 A. That's not correct. Are you reading my mind?
21 Q. Well, we'll come back to that. How did it come about that you
22 made a statement to the Administration for Organised Crime on the 29th of
23 June, 2006?
24 A. I don't understand your question. Could you repeat it.
25 Q. Prosecutor Stankovic, how come you made that statement? Were you
2 A. Yes, I was summoned.
3 Q. And?
4 A. I responded to the summons.
5 Q. Where did you go?
6 A. To Makisa to the war crimes department where the Kostic Aleksandar
7 was the chief.
8 Q. You went to the MUP, not to the Prosecutor's office?
9 A. Yes, yes, I was in the Prosecutor's office before that when I was
10 telling the chef de cabinet Zoran Alimpic that he should tell Mr. Lukic
11 that I was going there, that it had to do with the refrigerator truck case
12 and that it might be a good idea for us to discuss this.
13 Q. All right. Yes. I'm waiting for the interpretation to end. You
14 have already told us this and you have also already told us that no one
15 from Mr. Lukic's office wanted to give you any instructions as to how you
16 should testify. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. Thank you. When you were questioned in 2006 in the Prosecutor
19 Stankovic's office, was Bozo Predalic there, your counsel?
20 A. He's not my counsel and he was not there.
21 Q. In the statement signed by Prosecutor Stankovic, it
22 says: "Republic of Serbia, Ministry of the Interior, police directorate,
23 criminal investigation police administration." On the same document there
24 are some initials DJ/AK. I would like to know who was acting in this case
25 where you made the statement. Was it the police, because that's what the
1 heading would indicate, or was it the prosecutor who signed the document?
2 A. I was summoned to Makisa to the criminal police administration
3 where Kostic Aleksandar was the chief. He was there. There was also the
4 judge you mentioned, Jankovic or Jankusic and also present was an
5 operative who took notes on a computer. He took down what we were saying.
6 Q. At the end of the document we see that DJ in fact refers to Dragan
7 Jenic, who was the recording clerk?
8 A. Yes, his nickname was Junice.
9 Q. Well, then his name is in the wrong place. He should have been
10 second, but according to the way these initials are ordered, it appears
11 that he was supposed to lead the questioning?
12 A. I have no idea about that.
13 Q. So DJ and AK, Dragan Jenic and Aleksandar Kostic are employees of
14 the Ministry of the Interior?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Were questions put to you by the prosecutor or by the inspector?
17 A. I was cross-examined.
18 Q. So both put questions to you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I would now like to dwell a little on the next two paragraphs of
21 your statement made to Prosecutor Stankovic of the 29th of June, 2006.
22 I'm interested in the following. On the third page in English, the last
23 paragraph, and the next one; and B/C/S version, second page, third and
24 fourth paragraphs, you say: "On the 5th of December, 2003, I made a
25 statement to investigating Judge Dilparic where I explained my
1 participation in the transport of mortal remains from Tekija and Kosovo
2 and Metohija, and now I can say that I made four trips in total and in all
3 four trips, on all four occasions I drove dead bodies in a truck. I made
4 the first trip during the bombing. I think it was in late April or early
5 May 1999. The other trips were three to five days apart. I received
6 orders for each trip from Petar Zekovic, who was at the time the head of
7 the administration for joint affairs and assistant minister of the
8 interior. There were always verbal orders containing instructions as to
9 how and where I should pick up the truck, which truck it would be, and
10 where I should go to collect the bodies."
11 You testified about the same event in Belgrade before the judge of
12 the district court and the investigating judge in Belgrade, Milan
13 Dilparic, told you it was your duty to tell the truth. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. And you were also told not to withhold anything. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The same judge told you that it was a crime to give false
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You were told by the court in Belgrade that you are not duty-bound
21 to answer questions if your answer would have exposed either you or your
22 close relatives to severe disgrace, substantial material damage, or
23 criminal prosecution. Is this correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The judge then asked you whether you had understood these
1 warnings. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you said that you had. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you telling the truth?
6 A. Yes, I was.
7 Q. But in 2003 you were telling the truth to Judge Dilparic?
8 A. Yes, I was.
9 Q. That you didn't know who you spoke to in Pristina; is that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is that reference, Mr. Lukic?
14 MR. LUKIC: It's English version of the statement from 2003,
15 English page 2, paragraph 3. And the paragraphs are from -- the first
16 paragraphs were read from the 2006 statement. It's page 3, last
17 paragraph. But the warnings given by the judge in 2003 are on page 2,
18 paragraph 3.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm now lost.
20 MR. LUKIC: Everybody's lost.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: I didn't think you'd read anything from 2006.
22 MR. LUKIC: From 2006 I read the warnings given by the judge --
23 actually, I didn't read them; I go through it through questions. But you
24 can find all the warnings on page 3, paragraph 3 -- page 2, paragraph 3,
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I thought these -- these warnings don't come from
3 MR. LUKIC: They do.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, why are we talking about 2006? That's --
5 MR. LUKIC: I'm questioning him now on two paragraphs from his
6 statement in 2006, paragraphs from page 3, last paragraph, and the next
7 paragraph on the next page. And I will go through every sentence of these
8 paragraphs, so --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, if you go to line 53 -- sorry, page 53,
10 line 19.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: "I would now like to dwell a little on the next two
13 paragraphs of your statement made to Prosecutor Stankovic of the 29th of
14 June" --
15 MR. LUKIC: "2006."
16 JUDGE BONOMY: -- "2006."
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. I now have that clear. What I'm not
19 clear about is -- just carry on. I'll catch up eventually.
20 MR. LUKIC: I hope so, Your Honour, that I will be able to show
21 you what I want. But from line 10 we are on the next statement. When I
22 said: "You testified about the same event in Belgrade before the judge,"
23 it's a reference -- it's a reference to the statement from 2003.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.
25 MR. LUKIC: In the --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: So the reference to not knowing who he was speaking
2 to in Pristina is where?
3 MR. LUKIC: It's in 2003, the statement to the Judge Dilparic.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: And the page?
5 MR. LUKIC: Give me one second, please.
6 Yes, Your Honour, it's page 13, first line. "The contact, I did
7 not know who was on the other side of the phone ..."
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Page 13 --
9 MR. LUKIC: Page 13, line 1 --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: In English?
11 MR. LUKIC: In English.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mine is: "Did they wear caps ..."
13 MR. LUKIC: I was just informed that there are two translations,
14 so ...
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, can you help me with where this is --
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, give me --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: -- in my copy?
18 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Now it's page 8, middle of the page. Your
19 Honour, it's on the page we quoted. If you can --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: These are the same -- these are the same
21 conversations as the witness now says were with Mr. Lukic. Is that right?
22 MR. LUKIC: Correct, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, why are we not getting straight
24 to the point?
25 MR. LUKIC: I did.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Protic, you were asked some questions
2 just now about whether you told the truth at the interview -- sorry --
3 MR. LUKIC: It's page 8, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I have it now.
5 You were asked whether you gave the truth to Milan Dilparic in
6 December 2003, and once you told him that you got a Belgrade number in
7 Pristina, you then told him you didn't know who was at the end of the
8 line, and you then said: "I never saw these people. I didn't have any
9 direct contact with them, face-to-face as they say." Now, you've told us
10 today the person you were speaking to was Mr. Lukic. So which is the
11 truthful version?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you at the outset what the
13 circumstances surrounding my retirement were and that the rest of my
14 family were employees of the MUP. I withheld that fact for the sake of my
15 family. I did not want to expose them to possible risks or repercussions
16 and so on.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not the answer you gave Mr. Lukic when he
18 asked you. You told him that the evidence you gave to Dilparic was all
19 true, and that includes the bit that says: "I didn't know who I was
20 speaking to," or dealing with.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic asked me whether I had
22 answered the questions the judge put to me and I said yes, I did.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but did you tell the whole truth, which you
24 were obliged to tell him?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was afraid. I didn't tell the
1 whole truth because I was afraid for my family and I was sent to
2 retirement in a summary procedure precisely for that fact.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: And what was the part you did not tell him?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This precise part; namely, that I
5 spoke to General Lukic, who was chief of sector at the time.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. At the time you were answering the judge's questions, did you know
9 that an indictment was issued against Sreten Lukic before this Tribunal?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were you afraid of him?
12 A. First of all, the indictment wasn't issued --
13 Q. You gave your statement to Dilparic in 2003, in the month of
14 December. It was actually on the 5th of December, 2003. This is the very
15 statement we were referring to right now.
16 A. Very well.
17 Q. And Sreten Lukic was indicted by the Tribunal two or three months
18 before your testimony.
19 A. He was still in Belgrade, and in my view his position was still
20 quite powerful.
21 Q. You also said that you made such statements because you were
22 afraid of the possible repercussions for your family, as you had been
23 retired. The statement you gave to Karleusa was in the month of June of
24 2001. At the time, you did not know that you were going to be retired at
1 A. I was already retired at the time.
2 Q. In the month of June of 2001?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You told us just now that you were retired on the 28th of
5 December, 2001, and you showed us the decision and you read the date out
6 to us from that decision.
7 A. You're right. I was still working.
8 Q. You were not fearful of anything at all in June 2001?
9 A. Well, I might have been. The job I was doing wasn't simple and --
10 Q. Very well. We'll move on.
11 You're dealing with the 2006 statement given to Stankovic. You
12 said that for each of the trips you were issued an order from the
13 Assistant Minister Zekovic. Is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you say Petar Zekovic was the chief of your administration.
16 A. For joint affairs.
17 Q. What was Gojko Todorovic at the time?
18 A. Chief of administration.
19 Q. Wait a minute. Was it Zekovic who was chief of administration or
20 was it Todorovic?
21 A. Zekovic was chief of administration for joint affairs.
22 Q. And Gojko Todorovic?
23 A. Gojko Todorovic was chief of department.
24 Q. And not of the administration?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Very well. Every order you received from Petar Zekovic was,
2 according to your words, verbal. Is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was someone else present at the time Zekovic was issuing you with
6 A. The first time it was Nenadic Dragic who told me what I was
7 supposed to do. He told me to report to General Zekovic. On that
8 occasion General Zekovic and I were alone and he told me what to do;
9 however, it was Nenadic Dragic who told me to report to him, my chief of
11 Q. Page 3, last paragraph of that same statement, you say there
12 that: "Every time the order contained instructions as to how and where to
13 take a truck, which truck I should take, and where I should head to
14 collect the bodies."
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Am I right, therefore, that already in Belgrade you were aware of
17 the location you were to go to and what you were supposed to transport?
18 A. No, because during the bombing, the staff, or rather, the head
19 office of the police, would frequently change their HQ. If I -- and it
20 may have happened that even if I had it --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part of
22 his answer; it was incomprehensible.
23 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Protic, could you give the -- give us again the
25 last part of that last answer. You told us that the police would
1 frequently change their headquarters, and could you tell us the rest of
2 the answer again because the interpreters did not pick it up.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They would change the location of
4 the headquarters due to bombing. The NATO forces were bombing Pristina.
5 If they were at one location on a day, they might change that location
6 twice or even thrice in a day.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Protic, my question to you was not where the HQ was located;
10 rather, you stated that every time the order contained instructions, and,
11 among other things, you say that it contained instructions as to "where I
12 was to go to collect the bodies." This is what you told Stankovic in
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Every time when you spoke to Zekovic, at that time you already
16 knew where you were supposed to go.
17 A. No. Zekovic would tell me to go to Pristina to report to a
18 certain location, but then in the meantime the location would change and I
19 would have to get in touch with the HQ from where they would tell me where
20 to go next.
21 Q. You would report to the HQ. Would you go there physically?
22 A. Yes, I'd go there physically and I would there use, or rather,
23 dial the telephone number that was mentioned here. I would dial the
24 number and then I would receive my instructions as to where I was supposed
25 to go.
1 Q. We'll come to that telephone line later. Rather, tell us what
2 that telephone number was.
3 A. Can I consult my notes?
4 Q. You can't. Do you know the number?
5 A. Of course I don't. Why should I remember it? I have it in my
6 notes and I had it on me at the time.
7 Q. Did you orally testify before Judge Dilparic?
8 Before our court it is not allowed for witnesses to use any
9 documentation whilst testifying.
10 Did you give the telephone number to Judge Dilparic and Prosecutor
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Where does that rule come from?
13 MR. LUKIC: In Serbia --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Ah --
15 MR. LUKIC: -- if you testify orally, you cannot use your --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I thought you were tell him not to use his notes
17 here --
18 MR. LUKIC: I'm also telling him not to use his notes here right
19 now -- for now.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Well, carry on for the moment.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. If you didn't know the number from memory before Judge Dilparic
23 and Prosecutor Stankovic, in what way were you able to give them the
24 number? Was it that Stankovic suggested to you what the number was? How
25 were you able to give that telephone number in your evidence, then, if you
1 don't remember it now?
2 A. I had that telephone number down on a piece of paper and I kept it
3 for a long time together with my driver's licence and my documents in my
4 pocket, and when Mr. Dilparic asked me that question I took that piece of
5 paper out and I gave it to him. I didn't know it by heart. I don't have
6 the habit of memorising such things.
7 Q. Let's move on. What about Stankovic?
8 A. Same there.
9 Q. Further on in the statement, in the English version it's page 4,
10 paragraph 1, and that's the same statement given to Stankovic, you
11 state: "When I got to Kosovo and Metohija and when I was in Pristina or
12 in Kosovska Mitrovica, I would report on a fixed number." Is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Please give me answers that are as precise as possible. When you
15 arrived in Kosovo and Metohija for the first time, you called from the MUP
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The second time you also phoned from the MUP HQ.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the third time, again you called from the MUP HQ.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You tell us today that Zekovic told you - and this is page 30,
23 line 20 - to call from the MUP HQ the telephone number he gave you. Is
24 that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did Zekovic know that Sreten Lukic was the head of the MUP HQ?
2 A. I don't know that. They are generals. I'm just a common private,
3 as it were.
4 Q. Did you tell Petar Zekovic upon your return where it was that you
5 called the number he gave you from? And I'm referring to the first time
6 you came back from the trip. Did you tell him, I called such and such a
8 A. I told him that the mission was accomplished and that was it. I
9 didn't go into who I got in touch with, so on and so forth. My task was
10 completed and I -- and that was the end of the story.
11 Q. Let's go back to the first time you came to the MUP HQ.
12 A. Do you mean going to Kosovo or the refrigerator truck to Tekija?
13 Q. No, I'm interested in Janjevo. That was the first time; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You went to the HQ.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Which was the telephone that you used?
18 A. The HQ was across from the street of Bozur, on the third floor.
19 It was the premises of a company of sorts. I went upstairs and there were
20 a couple of police officers there. It seems to me that I met a Senijevic
21 and Mijatovic. As I was entering the building, I went upstairs. I
22 conducted that conversation, and from there I went on further to complete
23 the task.
24 Q. We received supplemental information from the Prosecutor, on the
25 last page of which it is stated: "The first time he called from the
1 furniture company Novi Dom."
2 A. Novi Dom.
3 Q. "The second time from a company in the centre of Pristina across
4 from Hotel Bozur."
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was it Hotel Bozur the place where you called on the first or the
7 second occasion?
8 A. It wasn't a hotel, it was a company.
9 Q. When did you call? On which occasion was that?
10 A. I called from both places.
11 Q. When you went to Janjevo, what was the location where you phoned
13 A. I know there was a staff here and there. Where it was exactly at
14 that point in time, I don't know. But I used those two locations to make
15 phone calls from.
16 Q. Very well. You don't know from what place --
17 THE INTERPRETER: There is overlapping between question and
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The third time I went to the parking
20 lot and there were policemen there and vehicles and trucks and all sorts
21 of things, and everything was ready to move.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. So on the third occasion you didn't call from the headquarters,
24 you went there directly.
25 A. Yes. It's right there. You could see a whole lot of vehicles and
1 policemen from the road.
2 Q. But when I put the question to you, you said that on all three
3 occasions you went to the headquarters and called from the headquarters,
4 so this part of your statement is not correct.
5 A. Well, no, that last bit, no. But I always reported to someone.
6 On that third occasion I saw the vehicles and I saw a whole -- a crowd of
7 policemen. I guess that was the location.
8 Q. So on the first occasion, who permitted you to call? Who allowed
9 you to use the phone?
10 A. Well, I went to the first office as I entered, and nobody stopped
11 me or told me not to use the phone. There was chaos there.
12 Q. And you dialled from that phone without using the area code?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. So was that a Belgrade number?
15 A. Well, I wasn't using the area code, so probably it was a Belgrade
17 Q. How many Belgrade numbers were there in the staff which moved on a
18 daily basis?
19 A. Well, how would I know? You have to ask the communications people
20 about that, the ones who maintained communications equipment.
21 Q. You don't know, in fact --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, we're going too quickly between question
23 and answer at the moment.
24 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Dialing, as you say, on the second phone of the Belgrade line in
3 the headquarters, and the headquarters changed locations several times a
4 day due to the bombing, so you dialled a number without using the area
5 code for Belgrade or you could have got a number in Belgrade. Is that
7 A. It's possible. I don't know anything about telecommunications.
8 Q. But you could have got any SUP in Kosovo which also had a Belgrade
10 A. Well, that's possible also.
11 Q. All right. Thank you. You don't recall the name of the man whose
12 office you entered to use the telephone number you had noted down?
13 A. There were no name tags on those offices. At that time it didn't
14 matter who had what rank and who was sitting where or doing what, at least
15 in my opinion.
16 Q. All right. Thank you. I was clumsy in putting my question. Do
17 you remember the name of your colleague, the policeman whose office you
18 entered and whose telephone you used?
19 A. Well, in the corridor I asked someone for a telephone and he
20 said, "You can go in there." I don't know who the person was.
21 Q. So you did not ask specifically for a Belgrade line?
22 A. No. I just said, "I need a telephone to dial a number."
23 Q. So if it was a Pristina line, you could have called without using
24 the area code and got a Pristina number?
25 A. Well, I was told it was a Belgrade line. Zekovic told me when I
1 was setting out that they had a Belgrade line. Whether it was a Pristina
2 line or a line of any other town in Kosovo, I don't know.
3 Q. Well, assuming that they let you use a telephone which had the
4 Pristina line and not the Belgrade line, when you dialled the number you
5 would have got a number in Pristina because you didn't use an area code?
6 A. Well, yes. I asked for a telephone to dial a number, a Pristina
7 number. I dialled that number and I got what I was looking for.
8 Q. Thank you. Did the same thing happen on the second occasion?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Well, the third time, you didn't call?
11 A. Yes, because I could already see what was happening.
12 Q. Thank you. Yesterday we received additional information,
13 supplemental information, from the Prosecutor and it's also contained in
14 your statement, the one of 2006 before Dragoljub Stankovic. The
15 Prosecutor refers to page 4 and you say: "General Lukic gave instructions
16 to the witness to go to the parking lot of Rilindija." And in the case of
17 the Stankovic statement -- well, we established that it's not correct that
18 at the Rilindija parking lot it was General Lukic who directed you there
19 and that this part of your statement, wherever it is that you mention it,
20 is not correct. Is that so?
21 A. Well, 12 years have elapsed. There are things I remember, things
22 I don't remember, things I remember vaguely or that come back to me. So
23 both possibilities are there.
24 Q. Well, the problem is that you recalled it for the first time last
25 year about Lukic, but let's move on.
1 You say that the first -- on the first occasion you were told only
2 to report to a certain place, a certain location, and that somebody else
3 would give you further instructions. That was a brief conversation. Is
4 that correct on the first occasion?
5 A. Not instructions. They said, "Drive in the direction of Skopje
6 and there will be a vehicle driving in front of you."
7 Q. So that's brief. Okay. On the second occasion when you went
8 towards Mitrovica you say, "Report to Mitrovica to the railway station."
9 Is that more or less what you were told?
10 A. Yes, the cargo or freight railway station.
11 Q. So again it was a brief conversation and there's no third
12 conversation. You did not introduce yourself to Sreten Lukic. Is that
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. And he did not introduce himself to you?
16 A. No, he didn't.
17 Q. All right. The fixed number that you say you called on two
18 occasions, did you ever dial it from Kosovska Mitrovica?
19 A. No. After loading, there was no need to call again because I knew
20 where to go.
21 Q. Well, with reference to the two paragraphs we are talking about
22 you said that you received orders from Petar Zekovic to go to Kosovo and
23 Metohija, and when you got there in Pristina or in Kosovska Mitrovica, you
24 reported to a fixed telephone number. So what you said before Stankovic
25 in 2006 is not correct. You did not call from Kosovska Mitrovica?
1 A. It's correct, I didn't. May I go on? I didn't because I had
2 already received instructions in Pristina. Had there been any doubts on
3 my part, had there been any changes, then I would have called from
5 Q. I'm only asking you where -- whether this part where you say that
6 you called that telephone number from Mitrovica is correct or not?
7 A. No, not from Pristina -- no, no, it was from Pristina --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- so there was no further need for
10 me to call from Mitrovica. Had I had any doubts, I would have called from
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just again help me, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is that reference in the statement?
15 MR. LUKIC: It's English version, page 4, paragraph 1.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Not my paragraph. This -- we're now on the
17 Stankovic statement. Is that right?
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Not on my paragraph 1 on page 4.
20 MR. LUKIC: Obviously there is a different set-up of pages, so
21 give us one second.
22 MR. STAMP: No, no, I didn't want to object, but I think just for
23 the references, counsel should use the e-court page numbers. He's using
24 the unrevised translation, I believe. The final CLSS translation, as
25 indicated, was delivered to the Defence and is in e-court.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: That is the one that you should use, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: That's right, Your Honour, but we didn't have time.
3 MR. IVETIC: We just got those.
4 MR. LUKIC: We just got them. As you know, I'm really trying to
5 be as precise as possible and to guide Your Honours and my learned friends
6 to specific paragraphs but --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I would like to see this reference.
8 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Give us half a minute, please.
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think I have it if it's the reference
11 to: "The next time, he told me to go to the southern part of Kosovska
12 Mitrovica and gave me the name of a contact person."
13 MR. STAMP: Not exactly.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: No.
15 MR. STAMP: Okay. Because I think what counsel is saying is that
16 the witness said in the statement that he called from Kosovska Mitrovica.
17 There are just two references to Kosovska Mitrovica in the statement, in
18 this statement. That is the one just quoted by Your Honour.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: And the second one is where?
20 MR. STAMP: And the second one is in the middle of the same page
21 where he said: "It was Petar Zekovic who gave me orders to go to Kosovska
22 Mitrovica. Once I arrived there in Pristina or Kosovska Mitrovica, I was
23 supposed to call."
24 JUDGE BONOMY: It's now clear. It then says: "In all three
25 instances when I dialled the number, the telephone was answered by General
2 Now, as I understand what the witness is now saying is that there
3 was only one occasion when he telephoned and there was an answer by
4 General Lukic, because he said on the third occasion he phoned nobody and
5 he's now said that in Kosovska Mitrovica he didn't phone anyone. It's
6 important we're clear on this, Mr. Stamp. That's what he now seems to be
8 MR. STAMP: I would beg to differ with respect. He could be asked
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's ask him.
11 Mr. Protic, there were three occasions when you collected bodies
12 in Kosovo -- in Kosovo, you say. On the first occasion you've told us
13 that you did phone a number and spoke to a person you say was General
14 Lukic. The second time I think the journey was to Kosovska Mitrovica.
15 Did you on that occasion telephone and speak to General Lukic?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Pristina I went to Kosovska
17 Mitrovica. In Pristina I was told where to report in Kosovska Mitrovica.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: On that occasion did you speak to General Lukic or
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't be certain I spoke to
21 General Lukic. I'm 90 or 99 per cent certain, but it was always the same
22 voice that gave me instructions.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we need to be more precise than that, I'm
24 afraid. You've just been telling us that you had no reason to make a
25 phone call on that trip. Now, are you saying that in Pristina you made a
1 phone call?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was asked whether I phoned from
3 Mitrovica. I did not phone from Mitrovica, but I phoned from Pristina and
4 then I went to Mitrovica. And after that, I didn't have any other
5 conversations. I set out towards Petrovo Selo.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: And when you phoned from Pristina, who was it you
7 spoke to?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same telephone number and the
9 same voice as on the first occasion.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: And who was that?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't be a hundred per cent sure
12 it's Lukic, but in my opinion - and I still hold that opinion today - it
13 was him.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Lukic, that would appear to cover two
15 occasions, in fact.
16 MR. LUKIC: Now, yes.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
18 MR. LUKIC: But -- may I proceed?
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
21 Q. Mr. Protic, do you know Milan Cankovic, a communications person
22 from MUP?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Did you talk to him before your testimony?
25 A. No.
1 Q. When did you last see him or hear from him?
2 A. Just before my retirement. I used to see him down there at
3 Bujanovac when we were in the field. That was before my retirement.
4 Q. Very well. Thank you. In your statement dated the 5th of
5 December, 2003, in the English version on page 5, paragraph 2, you say: "I
6 went to Pristina. I was given a Belgrade number that I was supposed to
7 call from Pristina. A man answered the phone. He set out in front of me
8 in the direction of Skopje, and some 20 kilometres from Pristina in the
9 direction of Skopje a dark blue Golf turned off to the village of Janjevo.
10 I followed the vehicle. As we reached the village of Janjevo, the car
11 in front of me pulled up beside the road and the local police took over
12 from there."
13 Here you say that you were given a Belgrade number, that a man
14 answered, who set out in a dark blue Golf vehicle in front of you. Who
15 was that person?
16 A. First of all, your question was wrongly put. I dialled the
17 number --
18 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues]... In front I gave
19 different -- again different setup.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Please answer the question and then we'll go back
21 to the difficulties we have with the pages.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I dialled the number. A man
23 answered the phone who told me, "A Golf vehicle will be riding in front of
24 you." It's not that the person who answered my phone call was riding in
25 front of me. The person told me, "You will be heading in the direction of
1 Skopje and there will be a Golf vehicle escorting you and it will be
2 riding in front of you." That's what it was.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
4 Q. Mr. Protic, I'm reading out what your words were.
5 A. Well, they weren't.
6 Q. I said what it is written here: "A man answered and said that he
7 was setting out in front of me."
8 A. Can you even make any sense out of these words?
9 Q. "And rode in the direction of Skopije."
10 A. The formulation is wrong. One and the same person can't answer
11 the phone and be riding in front of me. We didn't have mobile phones at
12 the time, if this is what you have in mind. A man answered my call and
13 gave me instructions as to what was to be done next. He told me, "You
14 should head in the direction of Skopje and there will be a Golf in front
15 of you." This is what I said and now what you're reading out, perhaps it
16 wasn't written well or translated well.
17 Q. You said that at the time there were no mobile phones?
18 A. I didn't have one and I didn't know anyone who had.
19 Q. Is it your testimony today that on your way to Kosovo you did not
20 speak to Vlastimir Djordjevic, a general, over a mobile phone and that he
21 gave you instructions and directions as to where you should go?
22 A. No.
23 Q. That is your testimony?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Very well. Thank you.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Lukic, could you find a suitable place to
3 MR. LUKIC: It's a good place enough for us, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: And in the afternoon, we'll expect you to be able
5 to identify passages accurately on the e-court copy, so somebody should
6 work on that for you so that we can relate them, because it's very
7 difficult to follow, otherwise, and you will lose time as a result of it,
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Protic, we now need to interrupt again for
11 lunchtime. Would you go with the usher. You'll be away for an hour and
12 we'll see you at quarter to 2.00.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.45 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Protic. Your cross-examination
18 by Mr. Lukic will now continue.
19 Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Protic, I showed you a part of your earlier
22 statement today which you said made no logic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have Defence Exhibit 6D196
24 called up, please.
25 Q. We didn't receive this document from Prosecution. This is a
1 record which was made at the official premises of the MUP of the Republic
2 of Serbia on the 27th of August, 2002. We see that the recording clerk
3 was Aleksandar Kostic, and you were heard by members of the operative
4 team. Let us Look at page 2 of the document which is only an excerpt of
5 your -- of the statement.
6 In this statement you say: "The liaison person in Pristina whose
7 name I don't know, but it's always the same man, drove a burgundy Golf and
8 followed me up to the intersection to Janjevo village. And after that
9 there was another reservist whose name I don't know either, a Lada Niva
10 was also driven in the direction of Janjevo village."
11 Does this statement of yours also seem illogical, is this the way
12 you put it, in fact?
13 A. Yes, this was the physical liaison or link, and they were driving
14 in front of me.
15 Q. You also state here that it's always one and the same person. Is
16 that right?
17 A. Yes, and I was referring to the person in the car. I remembered
18 the vehicle because I didn't see the person. The person was driving some
19 15 to 20 metres ahead of me depending on the traffic.
20 Q. And you said this was a liaison person?
21 A. Yes. A liaison, or rather, I'm -- what I meant by saying a
22 liaison or a link was that this person and vehicle were escorting us or
23 escorting me.
24 Q. This is the only liaison person you mention in the statement. Is
25 that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was this person a civilian or a police officer?
3 A. A civilian.
4 Q. In your statement given to Prosecutor Stankovic, page 3, paragraph
5 3, of the English version, there you state: "I made one trip to Petrovo
6 Selo." And there you say: "Sreten Lukic issued the order to take the
7 truck to the village of Janjevo, where I would be met by a local
9 Was there a police officer waiting for you?
10 A. Yes, with a Lada Niva, who took me to the site where I was
11 supposed, to go but all of this happened after the Golf event.
12 Q. And you had your escort in Belgrade as well?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you repeat that answer, please, Mr. Protic.
15 The interpreters again did not catch it.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. My question to you was: Did you have your escort on your way from
18 Belgrade as well?
19 A. Yes, I did, all the way through to the store where Lada Niva was
20 waiting for me. My escort from Belgrade stopped there in front of the
21 store and waited for me to head back. And then the police officer in Lada
22 Niva escorted me uphill all the way up to the point where he was able to
23 drive. And there I was met by a tractor with a trailer.
24 Q. Therefore, you had escorts consisting of Golf and your escorts
25 from Belgrade?
1 A. Yes, that's right. I had my escort from Belgrade, and as for the
2 Golf vehicle, that vehicle was leading the way, whereas my escort followed
3 behind me.
4 Q. Is it true that this is something you never told either to the
5 investigating judge or to the working group that examined you on the 4th
6 of June, 12th of June, and the 19th of June, 2001, as well as on the 27th
7 of August, 2002?
8 A. I mentioned the burgundy Golf car and the escort following me in
9 all my statements, and I gave the same answers.
10 Q. Is it true that you never mentioned talking to Sreten Lukic?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. In none of the statements I referred to?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. In the supplemental information we received from the Prosecutor
15 last night, there is mention of the parking lot at the Rilindija.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You said that a policeman waited for you there. This person who
18 was waiting for you at Rilindija, was he a police officer or a civilian?
19 In your evidence today you said that he was a policeman.
20 A. Yes, he was a policeman. He was wearing a police uniform.
21 Q. What about that civilian in the Golf, where was he?
22 A. That was in Janjevo. That was my liaison between Pristina and
23 Janjevo. This has nothing to do with this event.
24 Q. So on this occasion that person wasn't present?
25 A. I didn't see the person even while we were travelling to Janjevo.
1 Even if you were to show him to me now, I wouldn't recognise him. I never
2 saw his face.
3 Q. You told us today - and I can see this in your statement as well
4 as in today's transcript page 78, 12, or rather, page 78, lines 12 through
5 16, that the civilian in the Golf vehicle was present on all three
6 occasions. What is the truth? Was he present on all three occasions or
8 A. I never saw the person. I saw the Golf vehicle only on my way to
9 Janjevo and never again. I went to Mitrovica on my own. From Vinje
10 [phoen] I came to the parking lot and --
11 Q. Therefore, this isn't true?
12 A. No, no, it isn't true.
13 Q. But the liaison person was the civilian in Golf on all three
15 A. The liaison person -- or rather, the liaison was through the
16 telephone number. That civilian in the Golf vehicle was there for the
17 first time and he was there to take me to Janjevo. I didn't see him
18 again, and even if you were to show him to me now I wouldn't know the man.
19 The liaison person or the contact person was the same on all three
20 occasions, and that was the person that I got in touch with over the
21 phone; that's what I said.
22 Q. This isn't what you said. I just read it out from our document
23 6169 where you say the contact person or the liaison person in Pristina
24 whose name I do not know and I don't know his face, he drove the burgundy
25 Golf vehicle. Is that part of your statement true or not true, just tell
2 A. That's not true.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: I apologise, Your Honour. On the page 81, line 20, it
5 says "contact person." That should be "contact person in Pristina is
6 always the same."
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. Please continue.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. As we still have this document on the screen, is this your
10 signature that we can see on the screen?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: Can we go to the private session for a moment, Your
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
16 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
3 MR. STAMP: While there's a pause, could I inquire of whether or
4 not the Defence is in possession of the remainder of 6D196, just so we
5 could see the context in which this passage which was put to the witness
6 was made.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it the document is available in its original
8 language in full.
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: So you will be able to deal with a translation of
11 that, I would have thought, in your own office, Mr. Stamp, as long as you
12 get the version in one language.
13 MR. STAMP: Well, may I inquire through the Court if we could have
14 the document, a copy of the document.
15 MR. LUKIC: We can provide a hard copy at this moment.
16 MR. STAMP: Very well. Thanks.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you do that just now --
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: -- so that Mr. Stamp has time to consider it.
20 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Ivetic will help us with that, and if I may
21 continue, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Protic, did you tell the court in Belgrade
25 that Obrad Stevanovic in 1999 was the commander of all the PJP units in
2 A. Yes, I did. At that time I was his driver; he was the commander
3 in the staff.
4 Q. In the English version of the statement made before Prosecutor
5 Stankovic, page 2, paragraph 3, you said that one of the assistant
6 ministers and the commander of all the police units in Kosovo and Metohija
7 was General Sreten Lukic. Does that mean that the PJP had two commanders?
8 A. I said that Sreten Lukic was the chief of the sector. Perhaps he
9 understood it as meaning commander.
10 Q. Very well. Thank you. Mr. Sreten Lukic was the chief of the
11 sector after these events in Kosovo, is that correct, not in 1999? Tell
12 us if you know; if not, we'll move on.
13 A. Well, let's move on.
14 Q. I would now like to go to page 2, paragraph 3 of your statement
15 before Prosecutor Stankovic, which I would like to analyse. You say that
16 Sreten Lukic was personally known to you, that you recognised his voice
17 because you say you had been his driver for at least six months. And you
18 spoke to him frequently on the phone in that period. In the supplemental
19 information we received from the Prosecution, it says that you were Sreten
20 Lukic's driver from April to June 1999 [as interpreted]. Is this correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Are you sure about these dates, or rather, this period?
23 A. Well, I have the official document with me, I can show it to you,
24 sending me to Kosovo. It was signed by Radmilo Bogdanovic, who was then
25 the secretary in the ministry.
1 Q. Thank you. Very well.
2 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour, page 84, line 17, it
3 says "1999" and should be "1990," 9-0.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Protic, the documents also show that Sreten Lukic went to
7 Kosovo in October 1990 and that in the period you mentioned the chief of
8 the staff in Kosovo was Obrad Stevanovic. Is it possible that you made a
9 switch and that you were, in fact, Obrad Stevanovic's driver?
10 A. I was Obrad Stevanovic's driver, that's correct. But Mr. Lukic
11 was there for almost as long as Obrad Stevanovic was. He would come to
12 the staff for consultations, meetings, he would be three or four times in
13 a week. He would come and see Obrad.
14 Q. But are you now saying that you were a driver for both of them?
15 A. Correct. When Sreten Lukic arrived in Pristina, I would drive him
16 wherever he needed to go, even to Gnjilane. On one occasion -- well, I
17 won't go into that now. We'll come to that later.
18 Q. Do you know your colleague Nenad Dodic, also a driver?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Was he Sreten Lukic's driver?
21 A. Yes, he drove him around as well.
22 Q. Thank you. Is it correct when Sreten Lukic replaced Obrad
23 Stevanovic, his driver, Nenad Dodic, came with him?
24 A. Yes, that's true.
25 Q. From 1990 to 1999, according to you, you never drove Sreten Lukic.
1 Is that correct?
2 A. Not if you look at the documents, but when he came to Kosovo to
3 visit while Obrad Stevanovic was there and I was the driver of the staff,
4 I did drive him around.
5 Q. Well, I'm asking you after 1990, between 1990 and 1999.
6 A. When Obrad Stevanovic was Chief of Staff in Kosovo, Sreten Lukic
7 would come to visit; and whenever he did, I was his driver for visits out
8 in the field. However, if you look at the documents, I was never
9 appointed his personal driver.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you recall until when you were Obrad Stevanovic's driver?
13 A. Will you let me look at the official documents and I will be able
14 to tell you the exact date?
15 Q. All right. Go ahead. Take a look.
16 A. May I?
17 Q. Go ahead.
18 A. From the 23rd of April, 1990, to the 31st of July, 1990. I was
19 sent to the Kosovo SUP to be the staff driver.
20 Q. After that date, did you drive Sreten Lukic anywhere?
21 A. No, no, because on the 31st of July when this ended I returned to
22 Belgrade, and Sreten Lukic replaced Obrad Stevanovic and he took his
23 driver, Nebojsa Dodic, there.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. Might I tell you in the period from the 23rd of April to the 31st
1 of July where I drove Sreten Lukic?
2 Q. We'll come back to that. Thank you. You also say that you spoke
3 on the phone to Sreten Lukic while you were his driver in the staff. Is
4 that correct?
5 A. While I was in the staff, close to the telephone or near the
6 commander's office, if Sreten Lukic went somewhere outside Pristina he
7 would call on the phone and I would answer and I would recognise his
8 voice. It didn't happen all that often but it did happen occasionally.
9 Q. If you spoke to him on the phone, that means you weren't driving
10 him. Is that right?
11 A. Yes, that's logical.
12 Q. All right. Thank you.
13 Also after 1990 when that tour expired you didn't talk to Sreten
14 Lukic on the phone anymore?
15 A. Well, there was no need either for me to call him or for him to
16 call me. It was only when we were out on the ground.
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 MR. LUKIC: Can we go to the private session for one moment again,
19 Your Honour?
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
21 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. I'll ask you the following. Let's go back once more to 1990. How
2 many telephone conversations were there between April and July 1990
3 between you and Sreten Lukic?
4 A. You're asking me about something that happened 15 years ago. I
5 don't know.
6 Q. Thank you very much.
7 In relation to Goran Radosavljevic who turned up in Petrovo Selo,
8 you say he was there with his small daughter and that this was some seven
9 days before the end of the bombing. Is that correct?
10 A. He was there with his daughter in a camp caravan across from the
11 main gate leading to the centre.
12 Q. And does this time that you mentioned correspond with the events?
13 A. Yes, let's say it does.
14 Q. Do you know at that time there was training going on in Petrovo
16 A. No, there was no training going on. There were a few policemen
17 there and the kitchen staff. There was no training going on at the time
18 because there were air-strikes. It would have been crazy to collect
19 policemen in one place and expose them to danger. That's my opinion and
20 that's how it was, in fact.
21 Q. How long did you stay there in order for you to be able to make
22 such an assessment as this?
23 A. As I arrived there and went around the place where this was
24 supposed to be unloaded, I went back, I had lunch and returned the truck.
25 It could have been two, two and a half hours.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, but we have to go to the private session
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 11385-11386 redacted. Private session
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. The decision on your retirement was signed by Sreten Lukic. Is
6 that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Probably at the time as the chief of the public security sector he
9 would have signed at least a dozen [as interpreted] such decisions. Is
10 that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. LUKIC: It should be "10.000" instead of "a dozen such
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Did anyone force you to get retired?
17 A. It was suggested to me by Dr. Batnozic who told me that the
18 conditions were favourable for that at the time. What he didn't explain
19 to me was that I was going to get the base pension rate only and that was
20 because I had spent too little time in service and was only able to get
21 the minimum pension. He suggested that I retire because he said, well, I
22 had been working out in the field for a long time and I should rest.
23 Q. Thank you. You collected the relevant documents and you submitted
24 them to the commission?
25 A. I was never on sick leave. I didn't even have a medical file. I
1 don't even have a medical insurance card today, because I feel quite well.
2 What sort of medical documentation was I able to submit where I don't
3 even -- where I never went on sick leave.
4 Q. But you had to submit some documentation. Didn't you make blood
5 tests and other medical check-ups?
6 A. Yes, but at the time I was making these medical tests there was a
7 vacancy made for members of the gendarmerie so that the medical office was
8 full of people at the time. However, I don't have blood sugar, I don't
9 have arrhythmic beating of the heart. I don't have any of the
10 neuropsychological problems that were listed there, and on the basis of
11 that, you can judge whether I am healthy or not.
12 Q. Were you hurt by the fact that you were retired?
13 A. Of course I was. I am being treated as -- as a person who is not
14 fully sane, doesn't have legal capacity to the full, and my pension is far
15 lower compared to my colleagues of my generation who continued working
16 until 2005.
17 Q. So you were distressed even further by the level of your pension,
18 by the amount of your pension?
19 A. Of course, as well as the fact that my housing problem wasn't
20 solved. I offered Mr. Lukic to take my Batajnica apartment and to give it
21 to an employee who had no connections with Batajnica, and I asked for an
22 apartment in exchange for that. I didn't ask for an apartment -- an extra
23 apartment. I wanted my apartment to be exchanged. But as a pensioner, I
24 even am not entitled to getting any benefits in the process of buying of
1 Q. Now you're asking for a second apartment. You're not asking to --
2 to get your flat back?
3 A. I received 33 square metres of apartment from MUP, and I had 20
4 years of service in MUP and this was owned by my wife and myself 50/50 per
5 cent each. My son, who is an employee of the MUP, obtained an apartment
6 that was paid for in full by ourselves. As a MUP employee, he is never
7 going to lodge a request to be given an apartment from MUP. That's the
8 whole story. On one other occasion when --
9 Q. Please pause there. We have to move on. We have time concerns.
10 A. Very well, although what I had to say was quite important.
11 Q. Well, if the Prosecutor will be of that opinion, he will pursue
12 these matters. I wanted to ask you something related to your health, in
13 particular your psychological health. We received from the -- from the
14 Trial Chamber the following statement. "This Trial Chamber is ordering
15 you to appear between the 19th and the 23rd of February, 2007, or on
16 another date that will possibly be notified to you to appear before this
17 Trial Chamber in order to testify in the case "Prosecutor versus
18 Milutinovic et al." One day later, on the 5th of February, 2007, you
19 should, by that date at the latest, send us medical documentation from the
20 respective medical specialist who will prove that you are suffering from a
21 psychological disorder which prevents you from testifying.
22 Did you claim before this Trial Chamber that you were mentally
23 unfit to testify or not?
24 A. Can you please put the question to me again. I was focused on
25 what you were telling me before.
1 Q. Did you notify this Trial Chamber - we don't know how --
2 A. Over the phone.
3 Q. - that because of your psychological state, you are unable to
5 A. I told the interpreter, or rather, the interlocutor that I do not
6 wish to give any evidence before this Tribunal because I do not want to
7 remind myself of these events. I was told that I had to come. In
8 response, I said that I could obtain the neuropsychiatric findings and the
9 not appear before the Tribunal at all. The interlocutor asked me, "How
10 come?" Answer: "Well, I could go out into the street in my pyjamas, the
11 police could take me to the medical centre," but at the end of the day
12 this wouldn't work out really because any medical examination would show
13 that I am of sound mind and I would end up before this Tribunal anyway.
14 Q. You say that during the war you drove doctors?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The English version of this statement, page 2, the last paragraph,
17 and I mean the statement dated the 5th of December, 2003. For how long
18 did this go on?
19 A. At the time there was lady minister Leposav Kamelicevic [phoen]
20 and Petar Zelenovic agreed through the MUP that it would be desirable for
21 some police officers to get involved in the transportation of medical
22 doctors treating the troops in Kosovo. I was asked to do that and I did
23 that. The first two trips I did in my uniform, and this was the
24 Belgrade-Pristina-Gnjilane-Pec route that I travelled on two occasions
25 three days apart.
1 Later on, or rather, 15 days later I drove seven to eight medical
2 doctors of different specialisation and took back others. This was some
3 ten days before the end of the NATO bombing and before the arrival of the
4 NATO ground forces.
5 Q. Do you know which period of time that was?
6 A. Well, I've just said that it was some 15 days later during NATO
7 bombing and just before the arrival of the NATO land forces. I continued
8 doing that later on. There was a committee set up attached to the federal
9 government, and I remained working for the health minister with
10 minister -- or rather, assistant minister Tomovic.
11 Q. Very well. You say: "Just before the NATO forces entered."
12 Did you do this on a daily basis then?
13 A. Every third day or every other day I went there and back all the
14 time because the shifts took place in 15-day cycles. After that I
15 remained for another year and seven months after the police and army had
17 Q. We have that in your statement. Thank you. In the statement
18 you gave to Judge Dilparic, English version page 6, top of the page, you
19 were asked about the corpses you were transporting. The judge asked you
20 what kind of bodies these were, were they dressed in uniforms? And you
21 said: "There were some in uniform, some were naked, there were children,
22 elderly, all sorts were there."
23 In which tour did you see corpses in uniforms?
24 A. In the refrigerator truck that emerged from the Danube.
25 Q. How many people were in uniform?
1 A. Well, it was unpleasant to look at them. About ten. I just took
2 a quick look because they were already decomposing and there was a strong
3 stench; it was highly unpleasant.
4 Q. In connection with Petrovo Selo, did you put all the bodies in a
5 single pit?
6 A. Yes, from Janjevo.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Before Judge Dilparic you said: "When all this finished I
11 couldn't be there in Belgrade but I asked to go out in the field
12 somewhere, and I was in Bujanovac, Brezova, Nevidza for six months."
13 Did you go to the land zone of your own free will?
14 A. Well, when the newspapers started writing about it and when this
15 refrigerator truck was reported about for the first time in the media, the
16 one --
17 Q. Well, just tell us, please: Did you ask to go? Did you go of
18 your own free will?
19 A. I will tell you very briefly. I went to see General Lukic.
20 General Djordjevic also arrived. He said -- he saw that I was upset and
21 he said, "It wouldn't be a bad idea if you go to Bujanovac to be the late
22 Dragan Bozovic's driver." He's late now. "There's not a lot of work
23 there. You can rest and collect yourself there, and I went." I had been
24 absent for almost two years from the place I had worked in previously, so
25 I wouldn't have fitted in anymore.
1 Q. So what you said before Judge Dilparic, that you asked to go down
2 there, is not correct?
3 A. No, I went to see General Lukic to ask for his advice, to ask him
4 what I should do, and he suggested I should go to Bujanovac, which I
5 agreed to do. And I can tell you that -- well, I didn't exactly have a
6 rest, but I did manage to put some things out of my mind, to forget about
7 some things.
8 Q. All right. Very well.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this would conclude our
10 cross-examination, but because of the really late disclosure of some
11 details in connection with this witness's testimony we wish to retain the
12 right to re-call this witness, if need be, once we have carried out our
13 own investigation. So we ask for the possibility of examining him again,
14 and we would also ask, not in connection with this witness, that the OTP
15 answer a question we have, and that is (redacted)
19 JUDGE BONOMY: You need go no further on that point because it's
20 not your place in this open forum to be asking questions of the
21 Prosecution. The very fact that you've asked that question is entirely
22 inappropriate, Mr. Lukic. This could have been dealt with in a quite
23 different way. It's an issue; that's fair enough. If it is an issue, you
24 raise it in an appropriate way, but not in court.
25 So far as the first matter is concerned, then I've already
1 indicated to you that if you can justify re-calling the witness, then that
2 will be allowed and we will address the issue as and when it's raised with
3 us and the OTP have a chance to reply to it.
4 MR. LUKIC: I apologise for the second matter.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: I note that in the course of that
6 cross-examination, when the witness asked if you would like to know where
7 he had driven, Mr. Lukic, you said you would come back to that. Are you
8 not intending to come back to that?
9 MR. LUKIC: Actually, I do.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: I asked about the phone calls but I forgot that point.
12 Q. [Interpretation] We have to continue. I do apologise, Mr. Protic.
13 You say that in the period when Obrad Stevanovic was at the head of the
14 staff in Kosovo you sometimes drove Sreten Lukic around. Can you tell us
15 where, if you can remember; when, if you can remember that; and with whom,
16 if you can remember.
17 A. Yes, I can. Sreten Lukic, Mirko Bozic, and Savo Mastorevic
18 from -- I drove these people to Gnjilane from the staff in Pristina. They
19 took with them decisions on the dismissal of employees of Albanian
20 ethnicity. 70 such documents which they took to the station in Gnjilane,
21 and they threw the people out on the street. I remember that as if it was
23 Q. Now that we're talking about this, did the Albanians boycott and
24 leave the police due to pressure from their Albanian community?
25 A. Well, I don't know whether they left, but they were given
1 decisions on dismissal.
2 Q. Can one be dismissed if one fails to report to work for three days
3 in a row?
4 A. Well, you should ask the personnel people that.
5 Q. You should know.
6 A. Well, I always carried out all my tasks and was never late for
8 Q. Did you ever hear that anyone was dismissed from the police
9 because he failed to turn up for work for three or five days in a row.
10 A. Yes, I did hear about that.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
15 Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Stamp:
18 Q. Can we just look at what you just said. You said, in respect to
19 what happened in Gnjilane, Mr. Lukic, Mr. Bozic, Mr. Mastorevic took
20 me -- them -- decisions under dismissal of employees of Albanian
21 ethnicity. 70 such documents which they took to the station in Gnjilane
22 and they threw the people down the street. I remember that as if it was
24 Just tell us exactly what you personally observed at Gnjilane,
25 what you saw happen.
1 A. The lists were made in the staff in Pristina, the documents were
2 typed out, they were taken to Gnjilane, and they were handed to the
3 employees of the secretariat in Gnjilane.
4 Q. Who handed them?
5 A. Savo Mastorevic spoke Albanian well. He read them out in Albanian
6 and he handed them to the people.
7 Q. Do you remember when this was? Approximately if you can't be
9 A. In the period of the 23rd of -- 23rd to the -- of April to the
10 31st of July, 1990.
11 Q. Earlier on in answer to a --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move from that.
13 Are you saying this happened on one occasion only, in that period
14 of time, or are you saying it happened on more than one occasion as many.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only once.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP:
19 Q. You said Mr. Lukic offered you a vacant flat which had in it a
20 policeman who was an invalid. When did this happened? Do you remember?
21 A. Just before I was pensioned off.
22 Q. About how long before? If you can't be precise, just give us an
24 A. A month or two.
25 Q. In what circumstances did you come to be speaking with Mr. Lukic
1 at that time?
2 A. I was looking for a flat because I couldn't bear living in
4 Q. Yes, and I'm asking you what circumstances in which you came to
5 speak to Mr. Lukic at that time.
6 A. I went to see him. I asked him to receive me, through his
7 secretary; I went into his office and I asked him for a flat. He said
8 that Djukaric Kapadina [phoen], there's a flat. Go and take a look at it
9 with your wife. If you like it, move in. I went there and I saw it was
10 inhabited by a policeman, an invalid with three children who had moved in
11 illegally. But I didn't want to do that so I went back.
12 Q. You also said much later on in cross-examination that you offered
13 General Lukic to take your apartment in Batajnica. Was this the same
14 occasion or was it a different occasion?
15 A. In that period when I was looking for a flat, I was offering my
16 flat to the ministry so that they could give it to someone who had
17 nothing to do with Batajnica, to a police employee in Batajnica or
18 somewhere else. And in exchange, I wanted a place in Belgrade which was
19 far from Batajnica and those graves.
20 Q. Okay. Well, may I put the question this way then. How many times
21 did you meet with Mr. Lukic in respect to your housing situation, in
22 respect to the flat?
23 A. Four or five times. In the end he told me, "Why do you keep
24 bothering me?" "I do insist."
25 Q. You said you went to see General Lukic and General Djordjevic also
1 came to Bujanovac. Could you explain a little bit? When General
2 Djordjevic came to Bujanovac and you saw Mr. Lukic --
3 A. Mistake, mistake. Error. There's an error in your question.
4 Q. Can you explain to us what happened when you went to see
5 Mr. Lukic.
6 A. I was in Mr. Lukic's office. Mr. Djordjevic came in to the office
7 in Belgrade, and they discussed it with me and we all agreed that I should
8 go to Bujanovac.
9 Q. About when did this occur?
10 A. It happened when the refrigerator truck emerged and when the media
11 started reporting about the transport of corpses from Kosovo to Serbia,
12 when it became public.
13 Q. During -- I think I'll move on.
14 You said to me earlier on today that you would drive Mr. Lukic
15 from time to time in the 1990s and it seemed that in -- it seemed that you
16 said in answer to my friend just now that you drove him only in a period
17 during the year 1990. Is my understanding correct?
18 A. No, no. You misunderstand me. When I was sent there, according
19 to the decision, and drove Obrad Stevanovic, I also drove General Lukic,
20 who only came from time to time. He had his own driver in Belgrade but he
21 went down there. Sometimes he would come with a driver, sometimes
22 without. When he arrived without a driver, I was at his disposal.
23 Q. What I want to find out from you is whether or not you drove him
24 only in the year 1990, or did you drive him at all during the years of the
1 MR. LUKIC: Asked and answered, Your Honour. I specifically asked
2 this question several times.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think there is a certain amount of doubt,
4 and it would help us to have it clarified so we'll allow the question.
5 MR. STAMP:
6 Q. Do you follow the question or would you like me to repeat it? Can
7 you tell us whether or not you drove Mr. Lukic only in the year 1990 or
8 did you drive him during the years of the 1990s?
9 A. Sreten Lukic had his own personal driver in Belgrade, who belonged
10 to the cabinet. When Sreten Lukic went out in the field, like the staff
11 commander, he would take his own driver with him. I was not General
12 Lukic's personal driver, officially, on paper, ever, but I would drive him
13 around if he arrived in Kosovo without his driver or if his driver brought
14 him there and then went back. I was at the disposal of the staff
15 commander; I followed his orders. And if he told me to drive someone
16 somewhere, I would do it.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Protic, we understand that. The question is
18 about the period over which this happened. Did it only happen in 1990 or
19 did it happen also in later years?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had never driven Mr. Lukic
21 privately or officially --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Protic, we know that you were not his driver.
23 We know you didn't -- that he had his own driver and that it was only on
24 occasions when he arrived without a driver that you were at his disposal;
25 that is clear. What we want to know is over what period of time that
1 situation occasionally happened. Was it only in the three months and four
2 months in 1990 or did it happen in other years as well?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only during the period that was
4 already mentioned in 1990.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
6 Mr. Stamp.
7 MR. STAMP:
8 Q. Now, apart from driving him --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: I believe the witness
10 said in the 1990s.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: We -- Mr. Protic, Mr. Protic.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: You'll need to ask this again, Mr. Stamp.
14 MR. STAMP:
15 Q. You don't need the documents, Mr. Protic. We know that you had
16 occasion, without being the official, assigned driver, but you had
17 occasion to drive Mr. Lukic during 1990. Did you have occasion to drive
18 him during any other period, separate and apart from 1990? We understand
19 that situation.
20 A. I understand, I understand. General Lukic, when he came over from
21 Kosovo to Belgrade at a weekend, I would drive him and his belongings to
22 his flat, and this may have happened once or twice. It could be regarded
23 as a private matter because it had nothing to do with any official
24 assignments. That was the only time I drove him; never before, never
25 after. Of course, except for the period that I mentioned between the 23rd
1 of April and the 31st of July, and even in that period it was only
3 Q. When you drove him to his flat, was that in 1990 or was that in
4 some other year?
5 A. That's not important at all. The man would come from the field --
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Protic, we will decide what's important.
7 Please answer the question that you're being asked. Tell us when this
8 was. It's a simple matter.
9 MR. STAMP:
10 Q. Can you let us know, please, when it was you took him to his flat?
11 A. Well, let the answer then be: In the 1990s. Not 1990, but the
13 JUDGE CHOWHAN: And for how many years? For how long? How many
14 years you have been doing this duty? In 1990? For how many years? Can
15 you count the years? One, two, three, four, five, how many years you have
16 been doing it? In what period? That's the question. Even in 1990,
17 because 1990 that would mean about nine years. How much of time? One,
18 two, three, count that. How many years?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I drove him only twice with his
20 belongings when he would come from his field work. I don't know whether
21 he came from Kosovo or from elsewhere, but I was an official driver from
22 MUP and I would have a travel order, and on that basis I would take
23 General Lukic to his flat, and there's nothing controversial about it.
24 JUDGE CHOWHAN: But you spoke of 1990. What do you mean
25 by "1990"? Or 1990s? Explain that, please, because that is causing the
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1990, in the period between -- in
3 the period between 23rd April and 31st July, I was an assigned driver. In
4 that period I drove Mr. Lukic whenever he came to Pristina on business. I
5 would drive him there and drive him back. I wasn't his personal driver; I
6 was just a driver at his disposal. This is valid for the period I
8 The gentleman asked me whether I drove him on some other
9 occasions. From 1990 up until my retirement, I drove him twice throughout
10 that period, and that's the long and the short of it.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
12 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
13 Q. And finally, Mr. Protic, you worked in the MUP during the course
14 of the period, the 1990s. Apart from driving Mr. Lukic, in that period,
15 did you have opportunity to speak with him or he to speak with you at any
16 time in any circumstances?
17 A. Yes, I suppose to him. These were conversations of no
18 consequence. This was nothing official. I didn't have any dealings with
19 the staff as far as some decisions were concerned. I was a driver.
20 Whoever got in the car with me, I would discuss private matters with him.
21 I didn't make any decisions, nor was this part of my job, to join any
22 conversations or give any advice or anything of the sort.
23 Q. Yes, I understand that it was part of your job. But you spoke
24 with him -- you had opportunity to speak with him unofficially. Where
25 would you have these opportunities to speak with him unofficially in that
2 A. In the car, and never about business.
3 Q. Yes. Okay. Let me ask the question again. Forget about the
4 car. I'm not asking you anything about driving a car --
5 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Specific question, specific answer; there is nothing
8 else to be clarified. When did you speak? In the car. How many times you
9 drive him? Two times. That's it.
10 MR. STAMP: Those weren't the questions that --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I agree. The matter has been dealt with.
12 Let's move on to your next subject.
13 MR. STAMP: That was the last subject.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Protic, that completes your evidence. Thank
17 you for coming to the Tribunal to give evidence, and you're now free to
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, is there anything to report on the
22 question I asked Mr. Hannis this morning?
23 MR. STAMP: I know up until lunchtime - and that's just about an
24 hour and a half ago - there was nothing. And I suspect that there --
25 nothing has borne fruit as yet. If --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: As far as next week's witness list is concerned, am
2 I right in noting that there are only two witnesses planned?
3 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. Two witnesses confirmed -- two
4 witnesses confirmed; however, we may -- should be able to bring on another
5 one pending a decision which we are seeking from the Chamber. That's K82.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, as matters stand at the moment, we are
8 scheduled to have sittings on Monday and Tuesday of next week from 9.00
9 to 3.30, and it is our intention to adhere to that schedule, if possible.
10 The other three days of next week in the afternoon another case will
11 occupy this courtroom, and therefore we will be confined to sitting from
12 9.00 to 1.45.
13 So we now adjourn until Monday --
14 MR. STAMP: Before --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry?
16 MR. STAMP: If it is important and there might be some information
17 in respect to the question that was asked, perhaps we could convey to the
18 Court and to the other parties --
19 [Prosecution counsel confer]
20 MR. STAMP: -- there is nothing I could usefully add at this
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
23 We shall adjourn now until Monday at 9.00.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.14 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of
1 March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.