1 Monday, 6 October 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom this afternoon.
7 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Could we have the appearances for today, again, starting with the
14 MR. SAXON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Dan Saxon for the
15 Prosecution, together with my colleagues, Ms. April Carter and Ms.
16 Carolyn Edgerton, and our case manager, Carmela Javier.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 And for the Defence.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Novak
20 Lukic and Gregor Guy-Smith for the Defence.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. I guess, Mr. Saxon, you can
22 call the witness.
23 MR. SAXON: Yes, yes --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Unless you have any housekeeping matters to raise.
25 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour. If Mr. van Lynden could return to
1 the courtroom, please.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May Mr. van Lynden be brought in the court,
4 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, while we're waiting, just to avoid some
5 confusion later on in the session, I believe I will only need about half
6 an hour more to complete my direct examination. The Prosecution has
7 calculated that so far I have used 110 minutes, or just under two hours.
8 I hope that is roughly equivalent to what the Registry has calculated as
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hope so.
11 MR. SAXON: We agree.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, Mr. van Lynden.
14 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may very well be aware of this, but it's still
16 my duty to remind you that you are still bound by the declaration you
17 made at the commencement of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole
18 truth, and nothing else but the truth.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 Mr. Saxon.
22 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 WITNESS: CAREL DIEDERIC AERNOUT VAN LYNDEN
25 Examination by Mr. Saxon: [Continued]
1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. van Lynden. Just to clarify one matter,
2 several times on Friday when I asked you about the forces in Sarajevo
3 opposing the Bosnian Serb army, you referred to the "Bosnian army."
4 MR. SAXON: This was at pages 471 and 478 of the transcript, Your
6 Q. My question for you is, did the Bosnian Serb army have a more
7 formal name, if you know?
8 A. I imagine it was the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but I should
9 maybe add in this context that that army had not existed at the beginning
10 of 1992, and it was only being -- a fledgling force, so to speak, and
11 initially it could be quite confusing when one was in Sarajevo as to
12 where members -- were people member of the Territorial Defence or of the
13 army or simply of militias that had sprung up in defence of Sarajevo
14 Q. And did the --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, is the answer to your question, sir, the
16 short answer, that by "Bosnian Serb army" you were referring to the army
17 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
18 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is what has been written here. This is what
20 I thought I heard you say.
21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, my question referred to the forces in
23 It was my mistake in the transcript, and the question should read, at
24 line 23: Did the Bosnian army have a more formal name? Thank you, Your
1 Q. And your response to that, Mr. van Lynden, was the formal name
2 was the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? We need an oral answer.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was it also known at
5 times by an acronym or an abbreviation?
6 A. The acronym I'm aware of is ABiH, armija Bosnia i Herzegovina
7 Q. When we stopped on Friday, we had seen a new report that you did
8 for SkyNews of an interview with Ratko Mladic. When you met General
9 Mladic in September 1992, was he cordial to you?
10 A. He was, yes.
11 Q. Subsequently, did you and your SkyNews team do any reports about
12 the place near Sarajevo
13 A. This is a hill to the north of the Sarajevo; and yes, in December
14 1992, we did a report after Zuc was captured by the Bosnian army.
15 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honours, just for the record the witness
16 drew the rough location of Zuc on the image that has been MFIed as P1.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's true. That's correct.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Just for purposes of clarification so I
21 understand where we stand when we're discussing the Bosnian army, I
22 understand that we're now discussing the army that has the acronym of
23 ABiH? Is that the world in which we're in?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's my understanding.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. I just wanted to make sure.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's my understanding.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. That's what I'm trying to find out, just
3 to make sure.
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. And is that your understanding as well, Mr. van Lynden? By "the
6 Bosnian army," you're referring to the ABiH?
7 A. I am.
8 MR. SAXON: And I'm grateful to Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 Q. In December 1992, you mentioned that Zuc was captured by the
10 Bosnian army, or the ABiH. Did you and your team do a report about the
11 events at Zuc at that time?
12 A. Yes, we did.
13 Q. And did you and your SkyNews team do any reports about a place
14 called Gorazde?
15 A. Yes, we did, various reports initially from Sarajevo, using ham
16 radio operators, but later, at the beginning of 1993, we actually went to
18 Q. Where was Gorazde?
19 A. Gorazde is in eastern Bosnia
20 Q. Thank you for that, and is it -- can you recall approximately the
21 distance between Sarajevo
22 A. Not off the top of my head.
23 Q. That's fine. Was there something significant about Gorazde at
24 that time?
25 A. Gorazde was one of the besieged enclaves of eastern Bosnia
2 Q. And did you manage to enter Gorazde and report about the
3 situation there?
4 A. We discovered in early February 1993 that there was a track
5 through the Serb lines across the mountains from the Gorazde enclave to a
6 Bosnian army base camp and that up to 500 people a night were taking this
7 trail to get food from the Bosnian army camp and then bring it back to
8 Gorazde. We did a report about that, and ten days or maybe two weeks
9 later we took that trail ourselves and went to Gorazde for -- and stayed
10 there for about two or two and a half weeks.
11 Q. And during those two to two and a half weeks, did you produce
12 reports about the situation in Gorazde that were subsequently broadcast
13 on SkyNews?
14 A. Yes, we did.
15 Q. Mr. van Lynden, after you did your reports about the events in
16 Zuc and about the Gorazde safe haven, did you ever have further contact
17 with General Mladic?
18 A. I encountered General Mladic again at the building that was known
19 as the Bosnian Serb Presidency in Pale in February 1994 ahead of a
20 meeting between -- which Mr. Mladic was attending with Radovan Karadzic
21 and others of the Bosnian Serb command.
22 Q. And at that time, how did General Mladic treat you?
23 A. In a rather unfriendly manner. The general was not particularly
24 happy to see me and made that very clear.
25 Q. Can you be more specific?
1 A. He grabbed me with one hand in my face and spat out the words
2 "Zuc" and "Gorazde." For the rest, I didn't know what he was saying. I
3 didn't have my producer with me at that particular moment. The only
4 other person that was there was John Simpson of the BBC. But it was
5 clear that the General was not happy with my reporting either about Zuc
6 or about Gorazde.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You didn't have your interpreter with you, either?
8 THE WITNESS: My producers were my interpreters, Your Honour, and
9 the producer I had with me at the time was a man called Jaksa Scekic, and
10 he was a separate room with the cameraman because we had been told that
11 we would probably get an interview, and we had expected to do an
12 interview with Mr. Karadzic. As it turned out, the BBC and SkyNews were
13 invited simply to film the beginning of the meeting of the Bosnian Serb
14 political and military leadership.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, them. To the extent that the witness
16 is making a conclusion about why General Mladic was displeased to see
17 him, I would object on the grounds of speculation because he did not have
18 any information other than the names of two places.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
20 MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour, it would seem fairly conclusory if
21 someone grabs you by the face and spits out the names of two places about
22 which you had recently done some television reporting, clearly the nature
23 of that person's feelings would be fairly obvious. That is the
24 Prosecution's position. This is not speculation, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.
1 MR. SAXON:
2 Q. I'd like to show you one more piece of SkyNews footage.
3 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, this is from 65 ter number 4346,
4 footage that was shot December 1992. We will not show the entire clip.
5 We will begin it at 48 seconds, and then we will stop at 1 minute and 34
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. SAXON: We are not getting any sound.
9 [Videotape played]
10 GENERAL: "All of the Security Council resolutions, all of these
11 local agreement, all of these effort we are making here to improve the
12 situation and to save the lives and to restore the capability of the
13 utilities for the winter is completely held and we move one step forward,
14 and we find ourselves two steps back."
15 MR. SAXON:
16 Q. Mr. van Lynden, can you recall who this person speaking was?
17 We're at 1:34
18 A. This was the general commanding the Egyptian battalion within
19 UNPROFOR, and they and him were based in Sarajevo. And this is, as I
20 recall, at the PTT, the UN headquarters in Sarajevo.
21 Q. And we heard references from the Egyptian general to comments
22 like "one step forward, two steps back." What was he referring to? What
23 was the topic that he was discussing?
24 A. The general situation in Bosnia and in Sarajevo
25 MR. SAXON: Can we continue, please, until we stop at 1 minute,
1 55 seconds.
2 [Videotape played]
3 REPORTER: "... in the city. Serb and incendiary rounds setting a
4 string of flats ablaze in one apartment block. A resident watches,
5 distraught, his home and belongings gone. Seconds later, further bursts
6 of incendiary rounds crash into the building or bounce off the wall
7 into ..."
8 MR. SAXON:
9 Q. We stopped now just a bit over --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters be given the references
11 for the transcripts. Thank you.
12 MR. SAXON: Absolutely, and I apologise because I should have
13 given this previously. The ERN of the English transcript is 0304-3961 to
14 0304-3961; for the B/C/S, it is 0304-3930-0304-3931.
15 Q. We stopped here at a minute, 55 seconds point 7. In the middle
16 of the screen, we see a reddish object. Can you tell us what that
17 reddish object is?
18 A. That's an incendiary round that had hit the apartment block and
19 then bounced back literally over the heads of my cameraman and myself.
20 MR. SAXON: Can we continue now, please.
21 [Videotape played]
22 REPORTER: "... street below. Wanton arson on a purely civilian
23 target. As ever, Sarajevo
24 hoses to the flames for once unhampered by a cut in the water supply, but
25 for the fire chief, water is not the main concern. His engines are
1 running out of fuel, and he tells us he won't be able to cope with
2 another fire this day. The fall of [indiscernible] escalation of
3 shelling here in the centre of Sarajevo
4 of international efforts in Bosnia
5 led nowhere and won't until the western world proves it has a true
6 commitment in ending this war. Aernout van Lynden, SkyNews, Sarajevo
7 MR. SAXON:
8 Q. For the record, who is this person we see speaking here?
9 A. That's me.
10 Q. Okay. And did you observe any outgoing fire from that building
11 that day, the building that was being struck by incendiary rounds?
12 A. No, we did not.
13 Q. How about the surrounding area? Any outgoing fire?
14 A. We did not see any, no.
15 Q. Did you make any inquiries to see if anyone else observed
16 outgoing fire from that building or that area?
17 A. Yes, we did. Firstly, with the people like the man that you saw
18 earlier in the report who had -- whose apartment was on fire. We asked
19 him and other residents whether that building had been used by the
20 Bosnian army or anyone armed to fire on the opposing side, and they
21 said -- initially, they literally said to us, Do you think we're mad? We
22 would know the consequences, and no, it hasn't.
23 But we checked up afterwards or so. We went to the UNPROFOR
24 headquarters and checked with UNPROFOR officers, and they had noted the
25 fire, and they had said that on that occasion at that location there had
1 only been incoming fire and no outgoing fire. That's what we were told.
2 Q. Apart from the incendiary rounds that struck that apartment
3 building, did you observe any other kind of shell or ammunition striking
4 that building?
5 A. No, we didn't.
6 Q. And was that significant to you?
7 A. It was. It was for me the first instance that I saw of just
8 incendiary rounds being used. I should maybe also add that having served
9 in the Dutch military and having witnessed western armies during the Gulf
10 War, these are armies that don't have incendiary rounds, but the Yugoslav
11 Army did.
12 Q. Did you observe firefighters enter that apartment building that
14 A. Yes, we did.
15 Q. And did anything happen after the firefighters entered that
16 caught your attention?
17 A. There were fires on various floors, but they tried to -- and they
18 tried to fight them on various floors. But one of the fires was right at
19 the top of the building, and we noticed that once the firefighters had
20 reached the upper floors of the building, more rounds came in but now
21 aimed at the lower part of the apartment block, which indicated to us
22 that the firefighters had been spotted and that the people shooting at
23 the apartment block were really trying to cut off their way out.
24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this video-clip
25 now along with its transcripts, which would be 65 ter 4341.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The video-clip together with its transcripts is
2 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
3 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry. Just for purposes of clarification -
5 I may have missed it - what is the date of this video?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: December 1992.
7 MR. SAXON: And I believe the witness may be able to tell you
9 Q. Do you recall the date, Mr. van Lynden, when this event occurred?
10 A. I do. It was the -- actually, the 5th of December, 1992. In an
11 original statement, I had said either the end of November or early
12 December. Later on, my memory recalled that this was the 5th of December
13 because the 5th of December is a special date within the Netherlands of
14 St. Nicholas, and I recall calling my family, my children, later that day
15 in the evening.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we just go through the motions of admitting
18 this exhibit into evidence.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P11, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MR. SAXON:
22 Q. So you were in Sarajevo
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And after 1992, did you return to the city of Sarajevo in
25 subsequent years?
1 A. Yes, I did, but I never stayed there for the same length of time
2 that I had in 1992.
3 Q. And which years were those?
4 A. I came -- I went to Sarajevo
5 Q. All right. And on those visits to Sarajevo, did you continue to
6 send SkyNews reports about the events in that city?
7 A. I did. Not always that I was immediately sending a report, but
8 I -- yes, I was still reporting for SkyNews as a full-time staff member.
9 Q. Okay. If we can please go back to 1991 where you mention you had
10 been reporting from Croatia
11 any television reports about a man known as Captain Dragan?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. And who was Captain Dragan?
14 A. Captain Dragan is an Australian-Serb, Serb-Australian, who came
15 back to Yugoslavia
16 he came back. I encountered him in July 1991 for the first time in a
17 town called Dvor Na Uni. He took me to a town called Glina that he said
18 that he had just captured with his militia, a militia that was based in
19 the city of Knin
20 Q. And did the reports -- were the reports that you did about
21 Captain Dragan broadcast on SkyNews?
22 A. They were.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have the full name of this Captain Dragan?
24 THE WITNESS: The name that I have is Captain Dragan, Your
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MR. SAXON:
3 Q. During your reporting of the events in Croatia, did anyone in the
4 Yugoslav Army at that time make any comments to you about your reports?
5 A. On return to Belgrade
6 or so with Serb forces in Krajina and Banja areas of Croatia, we had a
7 meeting with one of the officers dealing with the press at the Yugoslav
8 Ministry of Defence within Belgrade
9 reports that we had sent, yes. Later in the autumn we met other officers
10 who were also aware of the reporting that we had done.
11 Q. And can you tell us about a particular officer or person who
12 indicated that he or she was aware of your reports?
13 A. Apart from the officer running the press office, whose name I do
14 not recall, the other person that I absolutely remember talking to me
15 about the reports that I had done was General Kadijevic, at that time the
16 Chief of Staff of the Yugoslav Army and, as I recall, the Defence
18 Q. Was that the only time that you became aware that persons in
20 A. No. Other people would comment on the reports that we had done.
21 As I mentioned on Friday, our reports were shown on the third channel of
22 the Belgrade Television, and people would say that they had seen them and
23 make comments about them of various natures, either that they were
24 impressed or less impressed, of whatever nature.
25 Q. And the persons who were less impressed by your SkyNews reports,
1 how did they express themselves?
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm going to object on a number of grounds,
3 not the least of which is relevance. And who are these persons? What
4 world are we in? We're fighting ghosts now. The persons who were less
5 impressed. You can't be vaguer.
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, this evidence goes to the issue of
7 notice, the fact that persons in Belgrade spoke to this person, even
8 persons who he did not know their identity of.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: That may well be the case, Your Honour, but what
10 they had to say, those persons who were less impressed, does not go to
11 the issue of notice; it goes to the issue of what their personal opinions
12 may be, whatever those opinions may be. The issue of notice is
13 relatively clean.
14 MR. SAXON: It goes to the -- well, the Prosecution believes this
15 evidence would indicate that people had been watching the reports of
16 Mr. van Lynden, Your Honour. That is the relevance.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess, Mr. Saxon, the very fact that these
18 people do say to Mr. van Lynden, We did see footage of your reports,
19 whether or not they express an opinion on those reports, that does show
20 that they have seen the reports.
21 MR. SAXON: That is the Prosecution's position, certainly.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: So, indeed, it is not up -- it is not necessary
23 for purposes of notice to know what the opinion was of the footage.
24 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection upheld.
1 MR. SAXON:
2 Q. Were you permitted to remain in Serbia, Mr. van Lynden?
3 A. I was permitted to remain in Serbia until April 1994 when my
4 accreditation, which was full time, was revoked by the Yugoslav
6 Q. And were you told why your accreditation had been revoked?
7 A. We were sent -- the SkyNews office in Belgrade where I was at
8 that time was sent a fax on Friday afternoon informing us that my
9 accreditation had been revoked, with one of the reasons -- and I cannot
10 remember the precise terminology, but that my work had not been in favour
11 of the peaceful -- the peaceful living-together of different peoples,
12 something along those lines.
13 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness 65 ter 532, please, or the
14 first page of it, if I can say that. Your Honours, 65 ter 532 is a
15 tape-recording of the 50th Session of the National Assembly of the
16 Republika Srpska held on the 15th and 16th of April, 1995, in Sanski
17 Most. I should say it is a transcript of a tape-recording. And we see
18 the first page here in both languages. Can we move, please, to, in the
19 English version, page 250, and in the B/C/S version, page 216.
20 Q. And, Mr. van Lynden, if you're following me here on page 250 of
21 the English version and 216 of the B/C/S version, we see in the English
22 version -- a bit more than halfway down the page, we see the name
23 "Mr. Toholj", T-O-H-O-L-J, taking the floor. Do you see that?
24 A. I do.
25 MR. SAXON: Can we turn now to page 252 in the English version
1 and page 218 in e-court. In the English version. There we are.
2 Q. And, Mr. van Lynden, in the first full paragraph, the penultimate
3 sentence reads the following: "I also know what happened to the famous
4 journalist, the famous Serb-hater, Van Linder (?) of SkyNews, how he
5 managed to get to Bihac. He stayed there for seven days, and I think
6 that his reporting was prejudicial for our offensive on Bihac."
7 Was there anyone else in the SkyNews team in the former
10 A. No, there wasn't.
11 Q. Had you received or heard similar descriptions of you in the
13 A. As a famous journalist and as a famous Serb-hater? Famous
14 journalist, not always, but certain people felt and had made it clear
15 that they thought that I was prejudiced against the Serbs, yes.
16 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, at this time I would seek to tender the
17 pages of this 65 ter exhibit that we have seen.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would only ask that they be marked for
19 identification at this point in time based upon further inquiry that may
20 be had with regard to the authentication of this particular document. I
21 don't think it's ultimately going to be a problem, but just for purposes
22 at this particular moment.
23 MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour, if the document is deemed relevant
24 and has probative value, the Prosecution submits it should be admitted
25 now. If Mr. Guy-Smith in the future finds material that indicates this
1 is not an authentic document, he can certainly raise that and revisit
2 this issue with the Trial Chamber.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, the document will be admitted into evidence.
4 May it please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P12, Your Honours.
6 MR. SAXON:
7 Q. And after 1995 in other parts of Yugoslavia, did you receive,
8 shall I say, derogatory descriptions about your work?
9 A. In 1999, just before the NATO attacks --
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm going to object on the grounds of relevance
11 as to whether he received other derogatory descriptions about his work.
12 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, again, this goes to the fact of notice
13 and the issue of how widespread Mr. van Lynden's reports were seen and
14 watched in the former Yugoslavia
15 parts of the former Yugoslavia
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: And, indeed, his answer is in 1999, which is well
18 outside of the indictment period.
19 MR. SAXON: It goes to the scope of the notice that was available
20 to this accused, Your Honour, how widely this man's reports were
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I understand the Prosecution's argument, there
23 are no -- there are no particular temporal bounds to the notice with
24 regard to Mr. Perisic. This is so far outside of the indictment period
25 that it verges on being laughable with regard to this particular
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, it's not a matter of temporal bounds.
3 It's geographic.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: With respect to temporal bounds, I would imagine
5 that there is also some submission from the Prosecution that the duty to
6 punish extended far beyond the temporal boundaries of the indictment. If
7 my memory serves me well, that's what Mr. Harmon said in his opening
9 MR. SAXON: It would, Your Honour, as a matter of law.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And on that basis, then, I would allow the
12 MR. SAXON: Thank you.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, Your Honour, once again, the answer
14 is -- what he's discussing here, the witness' answer deals with 1999. By
15 1999, Mr. Perisic is no longer the Chief of Staff; Mr. Perisic is no
16 longer in the army.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm aware of that. But we're dealing here with
18 the question of notice, is it -- it's just the question of notice.
19 MR. SAXON: I'll repeat my question.
20 Q. After 19 -- well, I'll let you begin. You were referring to
21 1999. Can you briefly describe what happened to you in 1999.
22 A. I was allowed by the government of Montenegro to enter
24 first month of the NATO attacks on Serbia and Montenegro
1 given protection by the police of President Djukanovic that was really
2 attacked on a daily basis out on the streets, both in Podgorica and in
3 other places within Montenegro
4 Q. Can you recall anything specifically that was said in reference
5 to you?
6 A. That they felt that I was against the Serbs and that my reports
7 were prejudiced against the Serbs.
8 Q. Did you ever interview Radovan Karadzic for SkyNews?
9 A. Yes, I did. I didn't so much interview him formally, but I had a
10 lot of conversations. There were two television -- televised interviews,
11 but the rest were conversations with Mr. Karadzic.
12 Q. And can you recall approximately when those television interviews
13 took place?
14 A. In 1992 and in 1994.
15 Q. Was it difficult to convince Mr. Karadzic to be interviewed by
16 SkyNews on those occasions?
17 A. No. Mr. Karadzic was absolutely willing to be interviewed by
18 SkyNews. SkyNews did a lot of interviews with Mr. Karadzic, also, over a
19 telephone line, simply giving him a chance to respond to whatever the
20 latest developments within the war in Bosnia were. And when I returned
21 to Pale in February 1994 following the first market bomb in Sarajevo
22 Mr. Karadzic, while making it clear that he was not pleased to see me,
23 still gave me an interview and allowed me access and also invited me, as
24 I mentioned earlier, to this one meeting of the political and military
25 leadership of the Bosnian Serbs.
1 Q. Okay.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I believe my time is about to expire,
3 and at this time I have no further questions.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
5 Any cross-examination, Mr. Guy-Smith?
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: A question or two.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
8 Q. Sir, you come from an old titled family in Europe. Your
9 grandfather or great grandfather, if I'm not mistaken, was a military man
10 of some measure. If you were to describe yourself as a wine, you would
11 call yourself "a hedonistic St. Emilion, of course." You prefer not to
12 be called by the name of Baron, if I'm not mistaken, so I will call you
13 Mr. van Lynden, with your indulgence.
14 A. Van Lynden will be fine.
15 Q. Van Lynden.
16 A. I don't quite get -- I would call myself a what?
17 Q. A hedonistic St. Emilion.
18 A. Oh.
19 Q. I'm referring, of course, to your slight coup with your Le Tetra
20 Roteboeuf 1990 because you're a wine collector, also, I understand.
21 A. Of a small nature, yes.
22 Q. First of all, I'd like to understand, if I could, your military
23 service. Your military service, as you related to us, was national
24 service, and if I'm not mistaken, is the same two -year, I will call it,
25 stint that all young men in the Netherlands
1 period of time before the national service was no longer compulsory,
3 A. No, that's not correct.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. In the Netherlands
6 national service would have to do 14 months in the armed forces.
7 Instead, I chose to apply to do my national service with the Royal
9 training and then serving minimally for a year as a second lieutenant.
10 Q. I see. And that is precisely what you did.
11 A. That's what I did.
12 Q. And then after two years of military service, you stopped serving
13 in the National Marine Corps, correct?
14 A. I became part of the National Marine Reserve.
15 Q. And in your capacity as a National Marine Reserve, were you
16 called to duty at any point in time, or did you periodically go on annual
18 A. I was called up once for one of these operations. They were not
19 annual, usually, in nature, but at that time I had left the Netherlands
20 already and was actually in Pakistan
21 the Afghan resistance during the war with the Soviet Union in the 1980s.
22 Q. So it would have been a bit difficult for you to return, I take
24 A. I only actually heard about it afterwards.
25 Q. Very well. Now, during your time as a war reporter, you had
1 been, as I understand your testimony, in a number of conflicts throughout
2 the world, correct?
3 THE COURT REPORTER: I am having difficulty hearing
4 Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 THE WITNESS: The court reporter says that they're having
6 difficulty hearing you.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's the dropped voice.
8 Q. I said during your time as a war reporter, you have been involved
9 in a number of conflicts, correct?
10 A. I haven't been involved with them. I've covered them, yes, but
11 I'm specifically in the Middle East. That was my main area where I
12 worked as a war correspondent.
13 Q. And as a war correspondent, there are a couple of
14 considerations -- I'm sure there are myriad considerations, but a couple
15 of considerations that always come to the fore, one of them certainly
16 being access to the fighting units.
17 A. Yes. In covering a war one needs to try to get access to the
18 front lines to be able to form an impression --
19 Q. Sure.
20 A. -- and to report, yes.
21 Q. And in terms of reporting, that's to accurately and objectively
22 report that which is going on during any particular battle or, for that
23 matter, a cease-fire or any other operation that you see.
24 A. Yes. Therefore, getting access to front lines is of importance
25 for war correspondents.
1 Q. And with regard to the specific conflict that we're interested in
2 here, obviously before you went to the region, you educated yourself with
3 regard to who the players were, did you not, who were the individuals of
5 A. Yes, to a degree, and that education continued as we were there.
6 Q. I'm sure it did. Now, when you first arrived in Sarajevo, so
7 we're clear, the military forces that were engaged at that time included
8 the ABiH, correct?
9 A. Yes, which was still a force, though, under construction.
10 Q. And when you say it was a force under construction, I take it
11 that you mean by that that it was not an army proper yet and that,
12 indeed, during the time that you were there - and by that I mean at the
13 very beginning - there was also a Territorial Defence, militias of
14 various individuals who you referred to --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
16 MR. SAXON: Very sorry to interrupt, but perhaps if we could
17 simply have one question at a time to make it easier for the witness.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure.
19 Q. There was also a group of individuals who were the Territorial
20 Defence who were distinct from the ABiH, correct?
21 A. That's how I recall it from May 1992, yes.
22 Q. And in addition to the ABiH and the Territorial Defence, there
23 were also various militia groups.
24 A. I'm not sure that they referred to themselves as militia groups,
25 but I certainly encountered one unit led by a man called Jusuf Prazina.
1 Whether we would call it a militia or not, he seemed very much in control
2 himself of that unit.
3 Q. Okay. Well, to fairly characterise, for example, the group that
4 you've just mentioned, there were -- in addition to the Territorial
5 Defence and the ABiH, there were groups of armed individuals who were
6 working together against the JNA; is that a fair statement?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. And on the -- have I taken into account now all of the
9 groups, military groups, that were on, let's say, one side of the
10 conflict? Have I missed anyone?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. And on the other side of that conflict was the JNA, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And apart from the JNA, were there any other military groups on
15 the other side of that conflict? When you first got there. When you
16 first got there.
17 A. But in 1992 you're referring to, in Bosnia, not 1991.
18 Q. 1991.
19 A. 1991?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Yes, there were. There were armed militia of a man known as
22 Arkan, Zeljko Raznjatovic, known as Arkan's Tigers, whom I encountered in
23 the field, and I also met Arkan in Belgrade, and there were armed groups
24 led by a man called Seselj.
25 Q. Now, the complexion of things changed in 1992, and by that I mean
1 the gentleman who you have characterised as the scourge of Sarajevo
2 became the commander of an army, right?
3 A. As far as I'm aware, he was already a commander in the army. He
4 was in Knin in 1991.
5 Q. Okay. In May of 1992, he became the commander of the VRS,
7 A. As far as I'm aware. I wasn't there at the -- I mean, I wasn't
8 with him at the time of his appointment.
9 Q. No, but you certainly were aware of the fact that in May of 1992
10 he was designated and appointed by the government the commander of the
11 VRS, correct? That being Mr. Karadzic's --
12 A. Mr. Karadzic's government.
13 Q. Mr. Karadzic's government. And he was responsible to
14 Mr. Karadzic, who I take it - and do correct me if I'm wrong - was the
15 Supreme Commander of the Republika Srpska.
16 A. I don't remember him ever referring to himself as the Supreme
17 Commander Of Republika Srpska. I mean, he was the political leader and
18 as far as I recall, Mr. Mladic was the military leader.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was he Supreme Commander of the Republika Srpska,
20 or was he the Supreme Commander of the Army of Republika Srpska?
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: An excellent question, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon?
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I said, an excellent question, Your Honour, which
24 I will ask, having His Honour's question in mind.
25 Q. To your knowledge, was Mr. Karadzic the Supreme Commander of the
1 Army of Republika Srpska or, if you know, the Supreme Commander of the
2 Republika Srpska? If you know. If you don't know, you don't know.
3 A. He was the President of the Republika Srpska --
4 Q. Very well.
5 A. -- which at that stage wasn't called the Republika Srpska.
6 Q. Now, there came a time when some troops - and I believe this was
7 in May - of the JNA while leaving Sarajevo
8 of this incident?
9 A. I'm aware of the incident. It happened before I entered
11 Q. Those troops, the troops that were ambushed, they were ambushed
12 by, if you know, the ABiH, correct?
13 A. I wasn't there, and I have heard various versions of that
15 Q. Well, to the extent that you heard various versions of that
16 incident, what you have heard is that either the ABiH or the militia
17 groups or citizen groups were involved in the ambush of those troops as
18 they were leaving pursuant to an agreement to leave, correct?
19 A. I'm aware that they were fired on, but I'm -- I don't know who
20 did the firing.
21 Q. Do you know how many were killed?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. And when I say "JNA," those would be young Serbian boys who were
24 soldiers, right?
25 A. Not necessarily only Serbian. I encountered in Sarajevo in the
1 former military hospital, the reason I first went there, as I recall, the
2 man who was being cared for was someone doing his national service who
3 was actually from Macedonia
4 Q. Precisely. So in the ambush that occurred, there were young boys
5 from many ethnicities or certainly from more than one ethnicity who were
6 ambushed by forces in opposition to the JNA. That would be, I think, a
7 fair way of putting it, wouldn't it?
8 A. Again, I don't know who was actually hitting this, but I'm aware
9 in the JNA that there were people from more than just Serbia and
11 Q. With regard to the Marsal Tito barracks, the barracks which we
12 saw a video-clip about, the Marsal Tito barracks were barracks that were
13 under the dominion and control of the JNA until they departed from
15 A. As far as I'm aware, yes.
16 Q. And if my memory serves with regard to the testimony you've given
17 to us in that regard, those barracks had within them, apart from human
18 beings, they also had military ordinance of some sort and fashion that
19 was left behind, correct?
20 A. As far as I'm aware, yes, but I didn't get inside those barracks
21 after their evacuation, so I wasn't able to see with my own eyes what was
22 or was not left behind.
23 Q. Did you receive any reports as to -- from any of the myriad
24 sources that you had with regard to what was left behind?
25 A. What we were told was that there was ammunition that had been
1 left behind.
2 Q. Now, in your experience as a soldier as well as in your
3 experience as a war correspondent, it would not be prudent to leave
4 ammunition behind for the use of your opponent, now, would it? That
5 would not be militarily a wise thing to do.
6 A. Not particularly, no.
7 Q. And once having evacuated a particular area, for example, a
8 barracks or a compound where such ammunition was, it would be militarily
9 prudent to destroy it, to blow it up, to get rid of it so that your
10 opponent would not have access to that particular ammunition, correct?
11 That would be a prudent thing to do.
12 A. From a military standpoint, yes, it would.
13 Q. With regard to -- with regard to the issue of the ABiH, the
14 Territorial Defence and the militia, would it be fair to say that there
15 was a standing - and you may not like that particular term "standing" -
16 but there was a standing armed force of an excess of 80.000 soldiers in
18 A. I have never heard the precise numbers.
19 Q. Well, you have heard -- you've heard numbers.
20 A. Oh. I mean, no, at that stage it was completely unclear.
21 Q. Okay. Bigger --
22 A. Totally unclear, and I suspect it would be unclear to the actual
23 people who were saying that they were in command at that stage.
24 Q. We have an expression "bigger than a bread basket," which is a
25 bit off point. But there were a fair number of individual soldiers who
1 were fighting first against the JNA and then certainly against Mr. --
2 General Mladic, weren't there? And by "fair number," I'm saying it
3 numbered within the thousands, correct?
4 A. Oh, yes, absolutely.
5 Q. Tens of thousands? And I'm not -- once again, I'm not trying to
6 pin you down to any particular number because, as you said, it was
7 unclear. There was a formidable group of fighting men.
8 A. Certainly.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What period are we talking about? What time spent
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: In 1991, 1992.
12 THE WITNESS: But 1992 and 1991, there was absolutely not Bosnian
13 army --
14 MR. GUY-SMITH:
15 Q. Excuse me. 1992. I do apologise. 1992.
16 A. And in 1992, it developed. It was a changing situation. By the
17 end of the year, you had a Bosnian army that was in control, and a Jukef
18 -- a Jusuf Prazina who was no longer there.
19 Q. Let's --
20 A. This was an evolving situation, and their numbers may have
21 changed over that time and of those who had been called up and then
22 trained. And those were not figures that we were ever actually given by
23 the Bosnian government.
24 Q. When you say it was a revolving army, that's not dissimilar to
25 what occurred, for example, in Kosovo. There was a revolving army in
1 Kosovo starting in the beginning of 1998, the KLA, and then certainly by
2 September, October, it was a much different force than when it began.
3 A. I wasn't in Kosovo, and I would not compare what occurred there
4 with what occurred in Bosnia
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Nor compare the Bosnian army to the KLA. I do not think they are
8 Q. I'm only dealing from a standpoint of an evolving army, no more
9 than that, nothing more than just a revolving army.
10 A. Well, I'm not sure I would refer to the KLA as an army. In
12 Q. Well, there's been much dispute as to whether or not there was an
13 army in the KLA, and there are those that think that there wasn't and
14 those that think that there was.
15 With regard to the issue of snipers, there were snipers in
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you have an opportunity during the time that you were engaged
19 in your reportage to meet with the snipers who were part of the ABiH or
20 any of the other groups that were there?
21 A. Your Honour, I have to just explain something. It's --
22 [French on English channel]
23 THE WITNESS: Can I continue?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we continue now? You may. You may continue,
25 Mr. van Lynden.
1 THE WITNESS: To give you a full answer, I have to explain that
2 as a war correspondent you don't go out with a sniper if you use your
3 brain beforehand. I have encountered snipers but never at my own
4 request. This comes from an early experience in Beirut when I was very
5 young still, and an American journalist who had not thought it through
6 went out with a Lebanese sniper because he wanted to do a story about the
7 day in the life of a sniper. And when they arrived at the allotted
8 point, the sniper turned to the journalist and said, Okay, there are two
9 people in my sights. Whom would you like me to kill? Which put the
10 journalist in an impossible ethical position, as I'm sure Your Honour
11 will understand. And I have never throughout my career, therefore, asked
12 to spend a day in the life of a sniper.
13 The only sniping snipers that I encountered were not at my
14 request. I asked to go to the front lines. But I encountered a couple
15 of snipers on the Serb -- Bosnian Serb side in September 1992 in
16 Grbavica. On the Bosnian side, I was never with a sniper or with a
17 sniping unit.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. Thank you.
20 A. I'm sorry for the explanation, but just to make that clear.
21 Q. With regard to the issue of the front line, and so we're clear,
22 would it be fair to say that the city of Sarajevo itself in 1992, when
23 you were -- when you were - thank you, Mr. Mair - when you were engaged
24 in your reporting was populated with Bosnian military who were fighting?
25 A. The city was populated by the population of Sarajevo. Amongst
1 them were military who were fighting.
2 Q. And those military that were fighting in the city that was
3 populated were, as you've told us, in the tens of thousands, correct?
4 A. I didn't say tens of thousands. I don't know the numbers. But
5 there were certainly thousands of armed men. But I should add that most
6 of them were on the front lines. It was a very long front line in
8 serves me, I do not remember encountering a lot of military men walking
9 around in the city centre. Where you saw them were out on the front
11 Q. Now, when you were reporting, the actual reporting that you did,
12 and by that I mean is, was it a videotape? Is that fair?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. I don't know what -- you know, what system you were using. The
15 videotape was transported to the offices at Belgrade 3 for some period of
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. Could you please explain -- just explain to us the
19 mechanics of where the ultimate programme was compiled. Was that done in
21 A. My report --
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. -- was -- in 1991, it was usually done in Belgrade.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you.
25 A. But sometimes in -- for instance, in the early part, well, I mean
1 July, we had a base in Bihac and we compiled the report there. In
3 person -- the picture editor was in Pale and I was in Sarajevo. I would
4 write the report, but the pictures that were put over it were put over it
5 by the picture editor in Pale. In later periods, later June, July,
6 August, September, and October, November, December, all those reports
7 were compiled by me either in Pale but with me and the picture editor,
8 for instance, those in September, and those later in the year with me
9 with the picture editor in Sarajevo
10 Q. And when you say -- when you say "with the picture editor," just
11 so we're clear, what happened out on the ground was that you and your
12 crew took footage --
13 A. Mm-hm.
14 Q. -- with that -- you then examined that footage at a later point
15 in time, later that day, and made a determination what part of that
16 footage would be appropriate for a report. And I'm saying that in a
17 value-neutral sense.
18 A. That's the way television works.
19 Q. That's the way television works.
20 A. The usual is that you film -- have about half an hour on film,
21 and you use one minute in an actual report.
22 Q. Right. It's about a 1:30
23 A. Something like that.
24 Q. Something like that. Now, the scripting that was done is the --
25 and I mean no disrespect when I say this, the scripting that was done is
1 the creative writing component of your reportage. You make a
2 determination of what words to use. You make a determination of how many
3 adjectives to use, correct?
4 A. Absolutely. And that's done by me.
5 Q. That's all done by you.
6 A. The script, yes.
7 Q. And in the reporting that you did, you made a decision with each
8 one of those reports, whether or not you were working with the picture
9 editor or -- meaning directly or whether or not you sent to the picture
10 editor your script, you made a determination in each one of those
11 reportings as to the emotional impact, apart from obviously the
12 reporting, the emotional impact that you intended for your report to
13 have, didn't you?
14 A. No. That's not really what you're doing. You're trying to tell
15 the story as clearly as possible for the audience as to what you saw,
16 what you filmed, and what you think -- you believe happened. It's not
17 about getting an emotional impact.
18 Q. It's just straight objective -- straight objective, This is what
19 happened, ladies and gentlemen.
20 A. No. What we try, but we do not always succeed in -- by
21 "objective," none of us is objective. We cannot be objective. But what
22 we mean and what we try but where we sometimes fail is to leave out
23 personal opinion and to report it as clearly and honestly as we can.
24 Q. Mm-hm. The agreement that you had - by that I mean SkyNews had -
25 with Belgrade
1 day, correct, in 1992.
2 A. In 1991 and 1992, Belgrade
3 recall, 12 hours a day, and those were 12 consecutive hours, or maybe it
4 had been split up. That, I can't precisely recall. But as I remember,
5 it was that they were broadcasting SkyNews for 12 hours a day.
6 Q. Do you know -- as you said, you can't remember, so you couldn't
7 tell us whether that was during the daytime or in the early morning hours
8 after midnight
9 A. I can't precisely recall, no.
10 Q. Could you tell us with regard to the transmissions from Belgrade
11 during that period of time whether those transmissions were in any
12 language other than English, the SkyNews transmissions?
13 A. SkyNews was only broadcast in English.
14 Q. Could you tell us whether or not the transmissions, pursuant to
15 this agreement you had, had, as we saw, for example, here in court --
16 A. Were subtitled.
17 Q. Subtitle -- thank you, subtitles in the B/C/S. Can you tell us
18 that? Do you know?
19 A. As far as I'm aware, they were never subtitled, and the language
20 at that stage was still Serbo-Croat, as far as I recall.
21 Q. Thank you for the correction. And with regard to those
22 transmissions, do you know what the - I'm now moving away from the
23 temporal issue to a geographic issue - do you know what the distance was
24 of the transmissions from Belgrade
25 "distance," I mean a kilometre distance. How far from Belgrade
1 did these transmissions emanate, if you know?
2 A. I don't know. I don't know whether it was only in central
4 not in the whole of Serbia
5 really up to the -- I mean, that was a technical --
6 Q. That's technical stuff.
7 A. It's not our television station so ...
8 Q. And just to -- because we're dealing for a moment in some
9 technical stuff, as you sit here today, you can't really tell us, apart
10 from the fact that you know it was broadcast in Belgrade, whether or not
11 it was picked up anywhere else in the country.
12 A. Well, we were certainly aware that it was picked up both in
14 programmes, something with titles like, What others are saying about us.
15 I think the programme was in Zagreb
16 But those were evening programmes which were a compilation of what
17 SkyNews, CNN, BBC
18 former Yugoslavia
19 Q. I want to just touch on one more point, which is you mentioned
20 that in your experience, if I heard your testimony correctly, that
21 western armies in Iraq
22 western armies do not use incendiary rounds. Is that your testimony?
23 A. What I'm aware is that NATO armies do not have incendiary rounds
24 fired from rifles.
25 Q. That's distinct from, I think, what you said. You said "western
1 armies," which is why I'm asking the question.
2 A. But what I meant was NATO.
3 Q. Ah.
4 A. NATO armed forces.
5 Q. Thank you for that clarification.
6 A. So American and British specifically, and the Dutch. And I'm
7 talking about incendiary rounds fired from rifles.
8 Q. Oh, so -- so they do have incendiary rounds.
9 A. I don't know if they have incendiary rounds from artillery. I
10 don't know --
11 Q. Well, you --
12 A. -- apart from white phosphorus, which they do have.
13 Q. Ah, yes.
14 A. But not from rifles.
15 Q. They have -- so they do have white phosphorus, which is an
16 incendiary round if they --
17 A. That's a mortar round.
18 Q. Yeah.
19 A. Or artillery.
20 Q. And western armies use that particular incendiary round
21 throughout the world in their conflicts, don't they?
22 A. I do not know whether they are using it at the moment still, but
23 they certainly were using it when I was in the Dutch Marine Corps.
24 Q. And they certainly were using it in Afghanistan, weren't they?
25 A. I'm not aware of -- I haven't been in Afghanistan over the last
1 seven years. I don't know if it's used in Afghanistan or not. It was
2 used by the Soviet Union in Afghanistan
3 Q. I'm talking about now just the western armies.
4 A. I'm --
5 Q. You don't --
6 A. I haven't covered Afghanistan
7 conflict came up in 2001.
8 Q. And with regard to your covering --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. --
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was just going to ask you when it might be
12 convenient for you.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think it's convenient for me now. I'm sorry.
14 I haven't gotten my -- I haven't gotten my internal clock put together.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. It's the first time you're standing
16 up in this case.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. But the other thing is that we may
18 not have very many --any questions left for the witness, so I don't know
19 how the Chamber wishes to handle it.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: About how many more minutes do you want?
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I could have 15 seconds with my colleague.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you very much. We have no further
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I didn't mean to cut you off.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: No. No, you didn't. No, please. Please, I was
2 getting very close to my end in any event. We're fine.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I just want to know if I can get a bottle of the
5 wine. He apparently has a slamming wine, Your Honour, which I'd really
6 like to get a bottle of, but I mean, that's probably a different issue.
7 THE WITNESS: I've sold it.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Absolutely. Okay. Could we take a break now and
9 come back at 4.00. Court adjourned.
10 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any re-examination, Mr. Saxon?
13 MR. SAXON: Just a few questions, Your Honour.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:
15 Q. Mr. van Lynden, during your cross-examination you mentioned that
16 General Mladic was already a commander in Knin in 1991. This is at page
17 25 of the LiveNote for today. Just to clarify, of which army was
18 Mr. Mladic a commander in 1991?
19 A. He was a JNA corps commander.
20 Q. Okay. Also, in your testimony you were asked by my learned
21 colleague whether the SkyNews broadcasts or reports that were received in
23 you responded, no, they were not, nor they were -- nor were they
24 broadcast in Serbo -- I apologise, because I've gotten my languages mixed
25 up. You testified that these reports were broadcast only in English,
2 A. The broadcasts were only in English, yes.
3 Q. And there were no Serbo-Croat subtitles attached to these
5 A. None, unless the reports were shown, as I also mentioned, on
6 Croatian or Bosnian television when they may have had subtitles. That, I
7 can't recall, but certainly not as I recall on the third channel.
8 Q. When you were in Belgrade
9 the English language about one or more of your reports or say anything to
10 you about them?
11 A. Certainly, yes.
12 Q. Can you describe one or two examples?
13 A. Various people, people from within journalism but also someone
14 like Zeljko Raznjatovic who actually called me in 1993 when I was in
16 Q. And this is the man also known as Arkan?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. You have testified on cross-examination, you had clarified that
19 NATO armies do not have incendiary rounds for rifles; and in the last
20 video-clip that I showed you today, we saw some incendiary rounds
21 striking a building. Were you able to ascertain or observe whether those
22 were incendiary rounds for rifles or not?
23 A. That was rifle fire.
24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
1 Thank you, Mr. van Lynden. This brings us to the conclusion of
2 your testimony. Thank you very much for coming to testify. The Trial
3 Chamber wants to say a special thanks to you for taking the time off from
4 your busy schedule to come and testify. You are now excused. You may
5 stand down.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
10 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, my colleague, Ms. Edgerton, will lead
11 the next witness.
12 Your Honour, just as a point of scheduling, and I've explained
13 this to Mr. Blumenstock, as well, quite frankly the Prosecution thought
14 that the cross-examination of the last witness would have lasted much
15 longer. We have a single 92 ter witness prepared to testify today, and
16 we have one more 92 ter witness who will be prepared to testify tomorrow.
17 So we will not be able to fill tomorrow, nor will we be able to fill
18 Wednesday or Thursday. We have one witness who we were able to bring
19 here who will be available on Wednesday and one on Thursday.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks for the update, Mr. Saxon.
21 Madam Edgerton.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Your indulgence for
23 just a few moments while we switch stations, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do that before the witness comes.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The Prosecution counsel is
1 strongly urged to use a long microphone instead of the short one.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, you are not wearing your
3 earphones. The interpreters ask that you use the long microphone instead
4 of the short one.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Apologies, Your Honour. I was listening to the
6 French channel inadvertently.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. I realise you were not wearing one,
8 and I thought I must just make you aware of what they were saying.
9 MS. EDGERTON: I'm all ears now, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 You wanted to say something, Mr. Lukic?
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I thought that my
13 colleague, the Prosecutor, would address the Trial Chamber in view of the
14 procedural problem that we are facing now, we the Defence, through no
15 fault of our own.
16 During the break between our two sessions, I received proofing
17 notes from the OTP for this witness consisting of seven points in the
18 English language, and I've been informed by the OTP that at 2.45 they had
19 sent this to our web mail in B/C/S. At any rate, I believe that this is
20 the last time that we communicate in this way with regard to proofing
21 notes. I really never had experience like this, that I get the proofing
22 notes at the moment when the witness is walking into the courtroom.
23 I've already consulted the Prosecutor, and they said that they
24 would agree. Obviously, in terms of time we will be able to deal with
25 this witness, so could I please be given a half-hour break to consult my
1 client and to consult with Mr. Guy-Smith with regard to these proofing
2 notes because, really, we have been taken aback by all of this.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want to stand down right now?
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that that would be the most
5 appropriate way of dealing with it. We should not start with the witness
6 before we've been able to do that.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, can we make sure that next time we
8 give the proofing notes timely so that we save on court time?
9 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour, of course, in as much as
10 possible. The only delay in producing these today was that they were
11 done late last night in English, and I wanted to have a Bosnian language
12 translation prepared so that the witness could read the material in her
13 own language. There was delay in getting the translation. Then, of
14 course, it was brought to the witness at her hotel, so certainly no lack
15 of attentiveness to the matter. But in as much as possible, we'll
16 endeavour to produce these in as timely a fashion as possible. My
17 apologies for the delay, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 You want 30 minutes? Do you want us to come back at 20 to?
20 Okay. We'll take a short adjournment and come back at 20 to 5.00. Court
22 --- Break taken at 4.11 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 4.38 p.m.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I have to point
1 out our concern with regard to the situation that we're in right now.
2 The witness who is supposed to walk into the courtroom today was called
3 as a 92 ter witness, and we are fully aware of the situation that the
4 Prosecution is facing with regard to the order of witnesses and
5 everything that had been happening over the past few days. All of it is
6 not in line with the procedure that is supposed to be there in terms of
7 receiving 92 ter material and possibly objecting to it. However, what we
8 received right now, the proofing notes, is far beyond the summary that
9 the OTP provided in their pre-trial brief.
10 On the 1st of March, 2007, the OTP put this witness on their list
11 and clearly stated what the reason was, why they're calling that witness.
12 You do have that, Your Honours. It has to do with the incident that the
13 witness already testified about and the incident that is described in the
14 witness statement.
15 In the proofing notes we've just received --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please be seated, Madam Edgerton.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not used to having two counsel standing at the
19 same time.
20 MS. EDGERTON: My apologies, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you. You may proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The proofing notes that we've
23 received just now contain a description of other incidents, new ones
24 altogether, two out of which have never been mentioned before, whereas
25 the remaining four, or rather, three incidents that are mentioned -
1 there's a total of five - have to do with a broader explanation of the
2 things that she already testified about in the Dragomir Milosevic case.
3 This concerns something that is clearly stated in the decision of the
4 Pre-Trial Judge from 2007, what we discussed the other day, that is. If
5 the OTP wants to question a witness in relation to unscheduled incidents,
6 then they have to notify the Defence four weeks in advance. These are
7 completely new incidents. Some of them are outside the time of the
8 indictment, and as for others we don't even know when it was that they
10 I believe that the Pre-Trial Chamber, when passing this decision
11 on four weeks, believed that the Defence should use that time either to
12 object in order to have the OTP state a good reason why the incidents
13 should be discussed in court and for the Defence to be able to check what
14 the OTP says. However, we are in a position not to be able to
15 investigate certain incidents, and now we are supposed to hear the
16 witness about that, and we've just been informed about all of this before
17 the witness walks into the courtroom.
18 I have to mention another thing that I find even more perplexing,
19 and the Prosecutor can confirm that for me. This witness was first
20 interviewed by the OTP in 1995 about what happened in Sarajevo. Her
21 second statement was made in 2006, again, to the OTP. Then she testified
22 in the Milosevic case in February 2007, and before that proofing notes
23 were compiled by the OTP, always in relation to what it was that had
24 happened in Sarajevo
25 first one took place more than ten years ago, and from all of that we
1 received nothing from the OTP. So we really cannot cross-examine the
2 witness about things that we first hear of here in the courtroom today.
3 And in relation to the summary provided by the OTP, these incidents only
4 have to do with what it is that she is going to testify about.
5 So we propose that the Prosecutor not be allowed to carry out a
6 direct examination about anything else but the original incidents;
7 otherwise, we will have to call the same witness again within four weeks,
8 or rather, four weeks later, and in the meantime the Prosecutor should
9 provide good reasons for why they want to discuss other incidents in
10 court with this witness.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, which are the incidents that are new?
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps the Prosecutor has copies of
13 the proofing notes they gave us, but the first incident is the one that
14 happened immediately after the other incident that has to do with
15 shooting at the tram, as stated in the proofing notes.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Give us the incident number. I guess you said
17 they were in the proofing notes. You just said -- which paragraphs are
18 these that are new?
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. If you have also received the
20 proofing notes, then I believe incidents from paragraphs 1 and 2 are new.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Then paragraph 4 and paragraph 3, as
23 well, although there is some mention of that in the Milosevic case.
24 You know what? Had we received this four weeks ago, as we were
25 supposed to receive in keeping with 92 ter, we could have stated our
1 views with regard to this statement. I understand now that timing is
2 difficult for the Prosecution.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, we haven't got much time. Okay. I'm
4 not quite sure I understand why you say number 3 is also new when it has
5 been testified to in the Milosevic case.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a clarification,
7 but it is an incident from 1992, and now all of a sudden there is this
8 broader explanation provided here. This is a description of events that
9 is not what is contained in the summary. If you look at the summary,
10 what the Prosecutor said in the summary, it only had to do with this
11 incident; and in the last paragraph she speaks of her walk along the
12 street as she was going to the university. This incident is not included
13 in the summary.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, do you have any response to this?
15 MS. EDGERTON: With your leave, Your Honours, on just a couple of
16 points. The Prosecution's submission is that the incidents in paragraphs
17 3, 4, and 5 are not new incidents at all and --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry. Let me interrupt.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The paragraphs that are alleged to be new are 1,
21 2, 3, and 4, not 5.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, my apologies, Your Honour. 3 and 4 are not
23 new incidents at all, and in fact the text of the paragraph specifically
24 refers to the page number of the previous testimony of Mrs. Mulaosmanovic
25 in respect of these incidents. This is mere clarification of the events
1 that she testified to earlier, which is often the purpose of proofing.
2 And the information that's recorded here, I would submit, Your Honour,
3 really serves quite well to put the Defence on notice, in fact, to make
4 his job easier when he chooses to engage in cross-examination.
5 But my friend raised another point, Your Honour, that I'd
6 actually prefer to address Your Honours on, and that's the --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'd prefer you to address me on what he alleges.
8 1 and 2 look new to me.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, indeed.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you address me on those -- address us on
11 those, please.
12 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct, Your Honour. They are. And I
13 learned of these incidents in proofing when the witness mentioned, "That
14 wasn't the only time I was shot at on a tram," and of course, I recorded
15 those and gave that information to the witness to confirm in her own
16 language as soon as I was able to; and once that information was
17 confirmed, we passed it to the Defence counsel.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but do you understand the gravamen of the
19 objection? The gravamen of the objection is that they should have
20 received that kind of information some four weeks earlier. Now, given
21 the fact that you're telling them about these new incidents for the first
22 time today, they want to reserve the right to recall the witness sometime
23 in the future for cross-examination on those two items. And to avoid
24 that, they are suggesting that -- they are submitting, in fact, that you
25 not be allowed to lead the witness on those two points. They say four,
1 but you say the other two come from previous proceedings. But at least
2 there are these two that you also concede are new.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Quite so.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. I would like you to address their submission
5 or their prayer that you not be allowed to lead on those that are new.
6 MS. EDGERTON: If I could just have a moment to check the
7 transcript, Your Honour. I think my friend raised a couple of points
8 with respect to that evidence.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: He did. All right.
10 MS. EDGERTON: There were two points as I can see it, Your
11 Honours, and the first refers to the Rule 73 bis decision of 2007, and
12 the second has to do -- has to do with timeliness of the notice, and I'd
13 like to address Your Honours on both of those points, if I may.
14 With respect to the first, I think it really puts us in a
15 position where we need to, with respect, evaluate or assess the scope,
16 the intention behind that 73 bis ruling. The type of evidence that this
17 witness spoke about and was provided in the proofing note isn't, I would
18 submit, Your Honours, detailed, forensic examination of an incident that
19 might rise to the level of a scheduled incident, one that we might call
20 police officers for, forensic technicians for, and other victim evidence.
21 This is, I would submit, Your Honour, much more a question of -- evidence
22 of general conditions around the time of the incident or general
23 conditions that the witness was living in Sarajevo between 1994 and 1995.
24 I don't think, Your Honour, that 73 bis ruling was contemplating
25 a detailed forensic examination. There are some particular unscheduled
1 incidents that, indeed, I think the Prosecution would be filing a motion
2 on four weeks in advance; those, for example, where we might seek to call
3 evidence of unscheduled incidents through police officers, the situation
4 generally, and evidence about the manufacture of the shells in
5 particular. There are those where I think we might seek to call evidence
6 of unscheduled incidents and the situation generally, again, through
7 people who have the expertise. But this is just additional evidence,
8 Your Honour, from a young woman talking about what was it like to live in
9 the conditions that civilians in the centre of Sarajevo had in 1994 and
10 1995. I would suggest, Your Honour, this is evidence that goes to
11 widespread and systematic and actually isn't, Your Honours, caught by the
12 73 bis decision.
13 With respect to the timeliness, Your Honour, and I've made it
14 quite clear; I've endeavoured to provide the most accurate piece of
15 information to Defence counsel that I could in the time given. I have
16 said already that the reason it took so long to deliver that information
17 to Defence counsel is that I needed to have -- I felt it best to have the
18 witness confirm that information in her own language. I think we're all
19 working with a little bit of difficulty in the circumstances of the case
20 this week and the short notice within which the witnesses were called.
21 But given the type of incident we're talking about, the fact that she's
22 testified three times, the nature of the additional information that's
23 not really going to the gravamen of the offence, as I've said, I would
24 submit that my friends have had more than sufficient notice and an extra
25 half an hour to see whether or not they might want to expand on that
1 information in cross-examination.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you done?
3 MS. EDGERTON: My friend's on his feet, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please allow your friend to finish,
5 unless you have an objection to raise, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps we are talking
7 too much now about things that are pertaining to procedure, but we are at
8 the very beginning of the trial so perhaps --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, unless you're having an objection, I'm
10 asking you to please take your seat.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon. I had believed
12 that she had finished.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, are you done?
14 MS. EDGERTON: I was about to conclude with the final request,
15 Your Honour, that we --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do. Please do conclude.
17 MS. EDGERTON: -- that should we decide to lead this evidence,
18 there's no prejudice suffered to the Defence in any regard, and it's not
19 the type of information that should be excluded as an unscheduled
20 incident by virtue of the 73 bis ruling.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: No problem.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We're at the very beginning of the
1 trial now, and now we are setting the rules, as it were, especially in
2 relation to 92 ter procedure. The understanding of my learned friend is
3 such that I'm afraid that we are going to move into viva voce testimony.
4 If so, I don't mind changing the status of the witness; however, we have
5 to receive notification of that in good time. I believe that the
6 Prosecutor is now trying to bring in through the back door things that
7 are not contained in 92 ter witnesses. We have prepared for 92 ter
8 witnesses. There are going to be other witnesses who are going to be
9 viva voce; however, the Prosecutor called this witness with regard to
10 particular incidents. That's what the summary says, and that is the
11 basic idea of bringing people in to testify in accordance with Rule 92
12 ter. If they want to call a witness to speak about other aspects of
13 their lives, then this has to be a viva voce witness.
14 I believe that this kind of precedent would create great problems
15 for us in the future, if through the proofing notes we find out about new
16 facts only a day or two before we actually hear the witness. Regardless
17 of whether the witness is saying this through an additional statement or
18 by way of clarification of the previous statement made, all of these are
19 new facts for us; and the summary of this witness clearly states why she
20 was called in the first place.
21 I'm sure that the Prosecutor will be able to prove their case,
22 the Prosecution case, in different ways; but that was not what they
23 intended, obviously, on the basis of the summary of this witness.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Trial Chamber's going to give its ruling. The
1 Prosecution is not allowed to canvas items 1 and 2 of the proofing note.
2 It may canvas the rest.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, ma'am.
6 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: ALMA CEHAJIC-MULAOSMANOVIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Edgerton.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Now, Your Honours, given that this witness's
17 testimony is as a 92 ter witness and in accordance with discussions that
18 the parties were involved in, we've prepared a short summary of the
19 evidence of this witness that we'd like to read into the record, with
20 your leave.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
23 The greater part of this witness' evidence, Your Honours, is
24 going to be in respect of scheduled sniping incident 10 of the indictment
25 against General Perisic; and as a 92 ter witness, Mrs. Mulaosmanovic has
1 previously given evidence in proceedings in this Tribunal in the case of
2 the Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic, and she'll confirm that
3 evidence today.
4 In summary, her evidence is that she was born and raised in
6 student in her home town. Around midday
7 crowded tram near the cathedral. The tram was heading from Bascarsija
8 towards Cengic Vila in the west. It was filled with men, women, and
9 children, all civilians. As the tram passed in the open area of the
10 crossroads between the Earth Museum
11 witness stood facing the former Marsal Tito barracks. She heard a burst
12 of fire from behind her, from what she described as the neighbourhoods of
13 Grbavica and Vraca. People crouched for cover. The fire continued and
14 the tram was hit, wounding Mrs. Mulaosmanovic in her left arm.
15 Mrs. Mulaosmanovic gave evidence as to the location she believed
16 was the origin of fire, illustrated with maps and photographs, which she
17 marked in court. The witness did not recall any military vehicles,
18 seeing any combat activity, or any Bosnian army soldiers near the tram at
19 the time of the incident. The shooting continued until the tram moved to
20 a sheltered location and stopped. The witness was taken for emergency
21 medical care, treated, and sent home.
22 Mrs. Mulaosmanovic gave evidence that during 1994 and 1995 there
23 was intense sniping in Sarajevo
24 whether you were moving about or sitting in your home, you could hear
25 shells and gunfire. Nowhere in town was safe, even inside one's flat.
1 You never knew when they were going to land. She described the fear and
2 suspense of not knowing whether you may be shot or injured and the sense
3 of relief when the projectiles passed by.
4 That's the summary of the witness' evidence, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 Q. Now, witness --
7 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, if I may.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get clarity?
9 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, sir.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we now going to have counsel testify and then
11 the witness testify before -- and this is a 92 ter witness? I found your
12 summary so long that it seemed to cover the entire statement that --
13 testimony of this witness as contained in her statement. Now, you're
14 going to ask her questions again?
15 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I was going to ask her to introduce
16 herself and ask whether she had reviewed her statements and previous
17 testimony and associated exhibits and offer them into evidence.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
19 MS. EDGERTON: That's what I was going to do.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you, ma'am.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Could you state your name.
23 A. Good afternoon. Alma Mulaosmanovic.
24 Q. And were you born Alma Cehajic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, prior to you appearing here today, did you have occasion to
2 review a statement you gave to representatives of the Office of the
3 Prosecutor in 1996?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you review it in your own language?
6 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Did you have any additions, deletions, or alterations to make to
8 that statement?
9 A. No. There was just one correction concerning a last name,
10 nothing else.
11 Q. Do you recall that correction?
12 A. "Cehajic" was misspelled with a "G" instead of a "J."
13 Q. Yes, I believe that's a correction you made during your previous
14 testimony in the Dragomir Milosevic case. Perhaps we could move on.
15 Now, also before coming to court today, did you review a further
16 statement you gave to the OTP in 2006?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. And that was also in your own language?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And other than a typographical error that you noticed on the
21 front cover sheet in terms of the date of the interview, do you have any
22 other additions, deletions, or alterations to make to that statement?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, you have a pretty good command of English, don't you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So, then, before testifying here today, did you also review an
2 English-language copy of your testimony in cross-examination before this
3 Tribunal in the Dragomir Milosevic case?
4 A. Yes, I did. Yes.
5 Q. And you understood everything you read?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did you also review copies of maps, photographs, and
8 documents which were dealt with in your testimony during that trial?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In respect of all this previously given evidence, if you were
11 asked the same questions today, would you give the same answers?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. EDGERTON: That being the case, Your Honours, could I list by
14 65 ter number the materials referred to in the 92 ter package and ask
15 that they be marked as exhibits?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Could you give the 65 ter number, ma'am.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. The first one is 09249, which is the
18 1996 statement; 09250, which is the 2006 statement; 09255, which is the
19 transcript of the previously given evidence with those portions the
20 Prosecution is relying upon highlighted; 09251, which is a marked map;
21 09252, a marked photo; 09253, another marked photo; and 02708, a
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. 65 ter documents 09249,
24 09250, 09255, 09251, 09252, 09253, and 02708 are admitted into evidence.
25 May they please be given an exhibit number as a package.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 09249 will become Exhibit
2 P13; 65 ter 09250 will become Exhibit P14; 65 ter 09255 will become
3 Exhibit P15; 65 ter 09251 will become Exhibit P16; 65 ter 09252 will
4 become Exhibit P17; 65 ter 09253 will become Exhibit P18; and 65 ter
5 02708 will become Exhibit P19.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 MS. EDGERTON: With your leave, Your Honours, I have one further
8 document I'd like to put to the witness, and it should take about four
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
12 Q. Mrs. Mulaosmanovic, do you recall whether you were ever
13 interviewed by the police about this incident?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you give them a statement?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you sign it?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Could I just ask then, please, e-court 65 ter
20 number 3412, page 21, be pulled up and displayed for Mrs. Mulaosmanovic.
21 03412, page 21. And page 21 is, of course, the e-court page number.
22 Your Honour, of course my estimate of four minutes was based on
23 technology serving us, and I do apologise.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We understand. Thanks.
25 MS. EDGERTON: We should have the B/C/S copy already on the
1 screen. If we could just show that to the witness.
2 Q. Do you see, Mrs. Mulaosmanovic, the document on the screen in
3 front of you?
4 A. Yes. Yes, I see it. That's the statement.
5 Q. Do you have any additions, deletions, or alterations to that
7 A. I don't.
8 Q. And you had read it prior to testifying here today?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I'd like, please, to tender page --
11 e-court page 21 of 03412 as the next and last Prosecution exhibit.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We need an English translation into evidence,
14 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour. The English translation was
15 completed yesterday and is probably in the process of being uploaded, and
16 I am confident it would be available forthwith. If not, of course, we'll
17 be able to provide a hard copy within very short order.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, because that's the -- that's the version
19 that should be admitted into evidence, and we don't have it here. At
20 least up here, we didn't even see the B/C/S one. I can see it in front
21 of the court officer.
22 MS. EDGERTON: No, I didn't see the B/C/S one on my screen
23 either, Your Honour. That's why I was concerned there was something
24 missing for the witness.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, 65 ter 3412 -- I don't know whether you have
1 anything to say, Mr. Lukic. We haven't got the English version here,
2 which is the one that we're supposed to admit into evidence.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't have it on my screen either.
4 I see that the witness has it on her screen, but I have a hard copy, so I
5 have no problem. Now we have the B/C/S version on the screen, and we
6 don't have the English version.
7 MS. EDGERTON: And, Your Honour, the resourceful Ms. Javier has
8 been able to find the English version on e-court and has given some
9 instructions to Madam Usher. It was actually uploaded.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then at least we admit into
11 evidence something we see. Can we have the English version on e-court,
13 MS. EDGERTON: She's re-releasing it now, Your Honour, to make
14 sure it becomes available. Your Honour, it was, after all, the first
15 venture into e-court in this case.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Understandable. We were watching maps yesterday,
17 last week. Okay. Then that is the statement. 65 ter 3412, page 21, is
18 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P20, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed, Madam
22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mrs. Mulaosmanovic --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- during your testimony in the Dragomir Milosevic proceedings,
1 at page 1666, you spoke of one of your friends who had died on a balcony
2 which had a concrete wall in front of it. Do you recall that?
3 A. Yes, I do recall that. It has to do with a girl.
4 Q. This girl who was killed, do you recall how she died?
5 A. Well, the situation was a rather special one. There was no
6 electricity or gas most of the time in houses. It was the month of
7 August. It was summertime. She was cooking lunch on her balcony. A
8 shell fell, and a shrapnel ricochetted somehow and hit her in the head
9 and she got killed on the spot as she was cooking lunch on her balcony
10 that belongs to her own apartment, her home.
11 Q. In an unfortunate yet similar situation, you referred in your
12 2006 statement, paragraph 11, to your uncle who died while he was outside
13 of his house. Could you describe how he was killed.
14 A. At that time, there weren't any furnaces in houses. They were
15 made only later. So he was baking bread in front of the building, in
16 actual fact, and he was also killed by shrapnel from a shell, and his
17 son, who was underage, was with him then. The son was wounded when he
18 was killed.
19 Q. Do you remember what area of town this took place in?
20 A. The second incident was in Dobrinje, in 1992, the beginning of
21 the war.
22 Q. And what area of town did the first incident take place in?
23 A. At Cengic Vila, in 1995.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. EDGERTON: And thank you, Your Honours. Those are my
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Edgerton.
3 Any cross-examination?
4 MR. LUKIC: I have some questions, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Mulaosmanovic, I am Novak Lukic, and on
8 behalf of the Defence team of General Perisic, I'm going to put a few
9 questions to you, and we will try to deal with this as fast as we can.
10 We know that you came here in quite a hurry, and we will try to deal with
11 all of this as fast as we can.
12 A. Please go ahead.
13 Q. You've already had experience in courtrooms, so you know that we
14 speak the same language. Could you please pause before answering my
15 question, and I will also try to pause before putting my following
16 questions so that we do not overlap in the process.
17 Let me clarify something at the very beginning. The first
18 statement in relation to this incident that took place on the 27th of
19 February - that's right, wasn't it - in 1995, that first incident, you
20 made that statement a month or two after that at the police station in
22 A. Well, the document does have a date. Yes, that's the first
24 Q. That is 520 [as interpreted] that was just admitted. So on the
25 14th of April, 1995, you first made a statement in relation to this
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Then you made a statement to the OTP of the Hague Tribunal, and
4 I'm going to call it statement number two, on the 22nd of February, 1996
5 also in relation to this incident.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Then again to the OTP of the Hague Tribunal in March 2006.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then finally after that, you testified here in the Dragomir
10 Milosevic case.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Before this Tribunal.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't want to interrupt or intervene in your
14 cross-examination, Mr. Lukic, but I just wanted to say that the Chamber
15 does not have what you refer to as the first statement of the 14th of
16 April, 1995.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That's the statement that the
18 Prosecution brought in just now. I'm going to ask the usher to put P20
19 in e-court. Could we please see both the English and B/C/S versions.
20 Let's just see whether we have it in e-court.
21 Q. That's the statement that you gave at the police station in
23 best in relation to this incident.
24 A. Well, yes.
25 Q. In this statement you said, and I'm going to quote this
1 statement, it says: "I heard a burst of gunfire from automatic weapons
2 and the thud of bullets in the tram and glass breaking."
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. This statement probably faithfully reflected what it was that you
5 said at the police station then, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In this statement, you do not mention at all from where you
8 thought the shooting had come, right?
9 A. Well, I didn't.
10 Q. In the statements that you gave after that to the OTP of the
11 Hague Tribunal, again, there is a reference to bursts of gunfire. Can
12 you tell us now: When I read your statement, first of all, you heard
13 some bursts of gunfire in the distance and then, if I understand your
14 statement correctly, then you heard this thud of bullets in the tram,
16 A. Yes. There was this burst of gunfire, and then perhaps a short
17 pause, and then for me the sound was the same of this other burst of
18 gunfire, and then the bullets were hitting the tram.
19 Q. I assume that the tram was on the move all the time, right? I
20 mean at the moment when you heard the first firing and, also, the other
21 bullets hitting the tram.
22 A. Yes. There was a very short difference between the two, if I can
23 put it that way, and the tram was moving all the time.
24 Q. I would like to go through what it was that you said in the
25 Milosevic case. Let us look at a map so that we all get an impression of
1 this, all of us here in this courtroom. You're our first witness who
2 speaks about certain locations in Sarajevo, and I would like you to
3 indicate for us the location where this incident had occurred.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a look now at
5 the map. I think it is P15, document P15. I may be mistaken, but we'll
6 see. I've just been informed that it may be 16, P16. Yes, that's it.
7 09251 is the 65 ter number. I thought I could manage numbers on my own
8 but ...
9 Q. Mrs. Mulaosmanovic, you have already marked certain things on
10 this map.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now, I don't know whether it would be
12 possible for us to use a different colour to make other markings in court
13 now in order to avoid any confusion.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do we not have a clean map?
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I don't, and I think
16 that this map is pretty useful. At least it was useful to me.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It could be a map of the same place but clean.
18 That's all I'm asking, and I'm sure it will still be useful, but it's got
19 to be without markings.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It would be very useful if the OTP
21 had a map like that.
22 MS. EDGERTON: If you'll just indulge me for another brief
23 second, I think I can tell you what 65 ter number the clean version of
24 this map is. If I can just have a little moment.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means.
1 MS. EDGERTON: 65 ter 4448, I think.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we have 65 ter 4448, please, on the screen.
3 MS. EDGERTON: In fact, I'm sure it's 65 ter 4448.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. We're waiting for the map, Mrs. Mulaosmanovic. We have read your
6 statements and your testimony. You often took that route, every day when
7 you went to university and when you went to high school, as all of this
8 was happening in Sarajevo
9 A. Often, yes, but not all the time. This was the route that the
10 tram took, but then there was an alternative route that I'd take on foot.
11 Q. What I know is that the tram started operating in Sarajevo
12 sometime in March 1994. Would that be right? Is that your recollection,
14 A. Possibly.
15 Q. Very well.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I'm sorry to do this to you. We are
17 way beyond our time, I guess because of the 30-minute break that we took
18 a little earlier; and I'm just wondering what the situation with the
19 tapes might be. Could we maybe take a break and come back at --
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Fine, fine. Yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are going to have to take just one hour when we
22 come back because of -- okay. We'll take a break and come back at 6.00.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic. I'm sorry.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mrs. Mulaosmanovic, we have a map in front of us now, and I think
6 that the map is the one you drew on last time you were in court. So we'd
7 like to go back to that one, and would you do the same thing that you did
8 in the Milosevic trial.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And we'll need the assistance of
10 Madam Usher.
11 Q. What I'm interested in is the direction the tram was going and
12 where you were, to draw into the map where you were when you heard the
13 shots for the first time, approximately. So can you show us the place on
14 this map where the tram was hit and where you were hit. Can you do that
15 on this map?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, one question at a time. First of all,
18 maybe if you can start with the direction the tram was moving, let her
19 show that, and then --
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I was just asking that because
21 I was talking to the court officer to see whether we've zoomed in
22 sufficiently because once we get going we can't zoom in any more. So
23 that's why I wanted to ask her whether she could see all that on this
24 part of the map as it stands.
25 Q. Mrs. Mulaosmanovic, can you draw in the direction the tram was
1 moving in, and the street was Zmaja od Bosna Street. Just an arrow
2 showing the direction.
3 A. The tram was moving this way. You want an arrow, so this would
4 be it, then. It was moving from Bascarsija to Cengic Vila.
5 Q. And would you place a number 1 by the arrow, and that is the
6 direction the tram was taking.
7 A. I'll place the 1 by the top of the arrow.
8 Q. Fine. Now, before you heard the shots, do you know where the
9 previous tram stop was? Do you remember? If not, we can move on.
10 A. No, I don't remember where that was exactly.
11 Q. Now, using this same map, can you mark in with a number 2, if
12 you're able to, that is to say, recognise the buildings that can remind
13 you where the tram was when you heard the shots.
14 A. It was between these two museums, the M. That's the crossroads,
15 and there's a school here, so that's the crossroads.
16 Q. Will you place the number 2 there, then, please.
17 A. So the two Ms are the museums, two museums marked with the letter
19 Q. And you said that this was a very short space of time, so could
20 you place an X where you think the tram was hit.
21 A. It's very difficult for me to determine that because we were
22 moving, and when I felt danger, I knelt down and the glass was above my
23 head, and I was looking at the tin of the tram. So it's difficult for me
24 to say. It's difficult to determine time at times like that.
25 Q. Well, can you tell us roughly how far after the crossroads where
1 the museums are this was, roughly, at what distance?
2 A. You mean where I heard the shots?
3 Q. Where the bullets hit the tram.
4 A. I really can't say, but it was roughly somewhere in between those
5 two points. The tram was moving. It was a short space of time, and then
6 you had the whole situation and my experiences of it, and it's difficult
7 to determine.
8 Q. All right, fine. But can we say, then, that this was, let's
9 say -- well, from the crossroads, could you give us the number of
10 minutes? Ten seconds, five, or whatever?
11 A. No, I really can't. Please understand me, time was very relative
12 during moments like that.
13 Q. Yes, I do understand. Now, you said that you heard the shots.
14 Did you see the direction from which the shots came when the tram was
15 hit, or prior to that?
16 A. No, because I was facing the Marsal Tito barracks, as they were
17 called, so I was facing north.
18 Q. Well, could you put a 3 there.
19 A. Yes, I'll put a 3. That's the direction that I was facing. I
20 was looking that way.
21 Q. Later on you said that you came to the conclusion that the shots
22 had come from the direction of Grbavica. Did you conclude that judging
23 by where the tram was hit, the direction from which the tram was hit,
24 that the bullets came?
25 A. Well, I had an entrance-exit wound. I still have that. So the
1 bullet, as I'm standing, entered this way and exited that way, which
2 means that it came from my back and exited towards my face, where my face
3 was turned.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the record, can we note that the
5 witness is showing the area of her left elbow, with an entrance and exit
6 wound above the elbow.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't above the elbow. It
8 was all below the elbow, the exit and entrance wound, both below the
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. We'll just place that on the record, that it
11 was below the elbow. Well, she has answered.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Can you now mark on this map where you think the shots came from,
14 from this area that you said was Grbavica?
15 A. Well, it says "Grbavica," so that's where that would be.
16 Q. Can you tell me -- well, we see the Miljacka river there, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Just pause between my question and your answer, please, Witness.
19 Anyway, this section from the Miljacka river towards the museum, which
20 forces controlled that area? Do you happen to know?
21 A. The river was the border, the separation line in that part of
22 town, that is.
23 Q. So do you perhaps know which forces controlled the area from
24 Hrasno, the Hrasno area? I assume you know where Hrasno is. So do you
25 know who controlled that area?
1 A. The Hrasno settlement -- yes, I will pause between question and
2 answer. Thank you.
3 The Hrasno settlement was controlled by the BH army, but the
4 front lines were there, so I can't be specific. But I do know that the
5 settlement and the houses there was where the Bosnia-Herzegovina army
7 Q. Let's be quite clear. The circle around Grbavica, would you
8 place a "G" there, the letter "G" for Grbavica; and then place an "H" for
9 Hrasno settlement so that we can mark that area too.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. This settlement, Hrasno, does it incorporate -- well, actually,
12 could you draw a circle around it.
13 A. Well, I don't know where the separation lines were there; but
14 otherwise, Hrasno, the name of the settlement, is written up on the map.
15 It says "Hrasno," and I'll underline that.
16 Q. Thank you. And another thing that I'd like you to mark into the
17 map, do you know where Vrbanja Most is, the bridge, and if so, would you
18 mark that.
19 A. It says "Vrbanja" here, so that's the bridge, and I've just put
20 an X there.
21 Q. You've put an X by Vrbanja bridge, right?
22 A. Yes. It looks like an X.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now, I'd like to tender this map, but
24 I'd like to discuss the map further, so may we leave it up on our
25 screens. I know that there was a problem if the map is taken away from
1 the screen. It's a problem to get it back again, so leave the map there,
2 please. And I'd like to tender it into evidence.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. But you still have questions to ask on it?
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map on the screen is admitted into evidence.
6 May it please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: The marked map becomes Exhibit D1, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
10 Q. So we can agree, madam, Mrs. Mulaosmanovic, that the Miljacka
11 river was the separation line, the demarcation line between the two
12 territories, controlled on the one side by the Army of Republika Srpska
13 and on the other, the BH army, in this part of town, the part where the
14 tram was hit.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember whether the tram was full or empty? Now, you've
17 already said that, but I'd like it on the record: How many people were
18 in the tram? Is it an articulated tram, the big one, or not, or a
19 smaller one? Do you happen to remember?
20 A. Yes, I do remember. It was an articulated tram, a big one, four
22 Q. Were there a lot of people in the tram? Was it full?
23 A. Yes, it was full.
24 Q. And what was the reaction in the tram of the people when the
25 shots rang out?
1 A. The people began to throw themselves down onto the ground. I
2 crouched down, too; I knelt down, and the people who were by the steps
3 went into this area because it was a more protected area, where the steps
4 were, by the doors, and the doors were facing the number 3 on the map.
5 Q. Do you happen to remember -- well, if I can put it this way:
6 Were there screams, shouts? Were the passengers raising their voices and
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. But anyway, you said you were facing the right-hand side -- you
10 were on the right-hand side of the tram facing the direction the tram was
11 taking, right?
12 A. Yes, facing number 3.
13 Q. In the previous trial you were shown a document, and I don't want
14 to put the document before you because it was admitted into evidence. It
15 is an UNPROFOR document, a report which said that when this incident took
16 place, that there was a conflict at Vrbanja Most, Vrbanja bridge, between
17 the two -- well, warring parties, and that it was with respect to that
18 incident that the BH army was cautioned and the Army of Republika Srpska
19 too. You're familiar with the document. We don't need to bring it up
20 again, and it's already in evidence, anyway. But at any rate, you cannot
21 actually tell me since you were facing the right-hand side whether you
22 saw any events going on on the left-hand side before the shots that you
24 A. No, I can't.
25 Q. After those first shots, there was a lot of commotion. People
1 were shouting. There was noise, loud noise. Now, this noise, this
2 commotion, was that straight after the first shots or only when you felt
3 that the tram had been hit?
4 A. Well, I don't remember the noise.
5 Q. When you testified in the Dragomir Milosevic trial, on page 1666,
6 you said that you cannot be 100 per cent sure whether the first burst of
7 gunfire came from the territory covered by the BH army or the territory
8 covered by the Army of Republika Srpska. That's what you said at the
9 time. Do you remember that? Do you remember saying that?
10 A. I don't remember, no.
11 Q. Very well. We have it on record anyway.
12 Would you tell me -- well, just a moment, please. Let me take a
13 moment. You were -- or rather, do you remember after the shots were
14 fired, how long did the tram continue running before it stopped and you
15 were able to get out?
16 A. Well, I can't say but not long.
17 Q. When it stopped --
18 A. Well, it was covered by the buildings, but as soon as a car
19 arrived, they took me to the emergency ward.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this
21 witness, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we remove this exhibit here,
25 Mrs. Mulaosmanovic, counsel for the Defence asked you a question, and
1 this was at page 70, lines 6 to 8. He said, "Just pause between my
2 question and answer, Witness. This section between the Miljacka river
3 and towards the museum, which forces controlled that area? Do you happen
4 to know?" And that question was not answered. Do you have an answer to
5 that question?
6 A. The river was the separation line, so it was the -- it was
7 under the control of the BH army.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The area between the museums was under the
9 control -- that was -- listen to my question.
10 A. No, no.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just this section between the Miljacka river and
12 towards the museum, which forces controlled that area?
13 A. I think they were the forces of the BH army, once again.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: And do you know whether the Grbavica area was
15 controlled by any army?
16 A. Grbavica was under the control of the Serbian army.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. So the Serbian army was in between two
18 sections of the Bosnian army because you said, also, Hrasno was under the
19 control of the Bosnian army.
20 A. Yes, in that part of town where Grbavica is located. That's
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I'm asking you about Hrasno, where you've
23 marked "H."
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under whose control was that?
1 A. It was the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 Any re-examination?
4 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 Any questions? Any questions here?
7 Do you have any questions arising from my questions? No.
8 Have we admitted this map? Yes, we have. Thank you very much.
9 Ma'am, thank you so much for coming. This brings us to the end
10 of your testimony.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Trial Chamber just wants to take this
13 opportunity to thank you for coming to testify. You are now excused.
14 You may stand down and travel well back home.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Travel well back home.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution does not have another
20 witness available today.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much for that, Mr. Saxon.
22 Just one or two housekeeping matters.
23 The Chamber would like to give an oral decision. Could the
24 Chamber please move into private session.
25 [Private session]
11 Page 608 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, the Prosecution will have one witness
7 available tomorrow. It will likely have two witnesses available for
8 Wednesday. If those witnesses finish on Wednesday, then the Prosecution
9 would have no more witnesses available for Thursday.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Wednesday is the 8th. If we
11 do sit at all on Wednesday -- I just wanted to mention in advance to the
12 parties that the Appeal Chamber has asked to use our time to deliver a
13 judgement in the Martic appeals case, and if we have to sit, we are going
14 to have to sit after they have delivered that judgement, okay? Thank you
15 so much. That's all I had for housekeeping.
16 Court stands adjourned until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00,
17 Courtroom I. Court adjourned.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.26 p.m.
19 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of
20 October, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.