1 Tuesday, 7 October 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, ma'am. I beg your pardon. Good
7 afternoon to everybody in and around the courtroom.
8 Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
10 number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have the appearances
12 starting with the Prosecution for today.
13 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. Dan Saxon for the
14 Prosecution together with my colleagues Ms. Carolyn Edgerton and Bronagh
15 McKenna and our case manager, Ms. Carmela Javier.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, and for the Defence.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours and
18 everybody else in these proceedings. Novak Lukic and Gregor Guy-Smith
19 for the accused.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I guess -- good afternoon,
21 ma'am. May the witness please make the declaration.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: WITNESS MP-229
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that you, Madam Edgerton?
4 MS. EDGERTON: It is, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon. You may proceed.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Good afternoon, and thank you.
7 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:
8 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. The first thing I'd like to do is have Madam Usher show you this
11 piece of paper, and perhaps you could have a look at what's written on it
12 and tell us whether that's your name and date of birth.
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Madam Usher, could we then have that pseudonym
15 sheet shown to my colleagues at the Defence table and then to Their
17 Your Honours, could that please be marked as the -- as a
18 Prosecution exhibit under seal.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That document is --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. I'm sorry. The document is
22 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P21 under seal, Your
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Under seal, yes.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Q. Now, Witness, it's correct, isn't it, that you've given a total
3 of five signed statements in regard to the incident on the 27th of
4 February, 1995, two to police investigators and officials of your own
5 country and three to the ICTY; is that so?
6 A. Yes, yes, that is so.
7 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review each of these in your own
8 language before coming to testify today?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. And did you have any additions, deletions, or alterations to make
11 to these statements?
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 Q. Now, also before coming to court today, with my colleagues and
14 with the assistance of an interpreter, did you review a copy of your
15 testimony and cross-examination before this Tribunal when you appeared as
16 a witness in the Dragomir Milosevic case?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And did you understand everything that you reviewed?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. And if asked the same questions in respect of the incidents on
21 the 27th of February today, would you give the same answers you gave in
22 your previous statements and testimony?
23 A. Yes, they would be the same answers.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Then, Your Honour, if I may, I'd like to provide
1 the Chamber with the 65 ter numbers of the previous statements and
2 testimony and documents referred to in the course of that testimony and
3 ask that they be marked as exhibits.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
5 MS. EDGERTON: The first would be 65 ter number 09256; and as
6 that's a signed statement, I'd ask that it be marked under seal -- or
7 entered under seal. 09257, again, the same, under seal, please. 09258,
8 again, under seal. 09259. I don't believe there's any requirement that
9 that be entered under seal. 07186, 09260, 09261, and 092 -- sorry.
10 Pardon me. 02708 should be the next number after 09261. And --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
12 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, and I'm ably advised by my colleague
13 Ms. Javier that 2708 has been already entered here as Prosecution Exhibit
15 And finally, Your Honours, the transcripts of the previous
16 testimony 09262 and 09263.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter number 09257 --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm so sorry. What's wrong today?
20 0926 -- 56 under seal, 09257 under seal, 09258 under seal, and
21 then 09259, 07186, 09260, 09261, 09262, and 09263 are admitted into
22 evidence. May they please be given exhibit numbers.
23 THE REGISTRAR: 09256 will become Exhibit P22 under seal, Your
24 Honours. 09257 will become Exhibit P23 under seal. 09258 will become
25 Exhibit P24 under seal. 09259 will become Exhibit P25. 07186 will
1 become Exhibit P26. 09260 will become Exhibit P27. 09261 will become
2 Exhibit P28. 09262 will be Exhibit P29, and 09263 will Exhibit P30, Your
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, with your leave now, if I may, the --
6 those exhibits having been named, I'd like to read a brief summary of the
7 evidence that's been tendered.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. You may proceed.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 This witness, MP-229 will give evidence -- has given evidence in
11 respect of scheduled incidents B10 and B11 of the indictment. This
12 witness was born and raised in Sarajevo
13 tram driver. Around 12.15 on 27 February 1995, the witness was driving a
14 crowded tram westwards along Zmaja od Bosne from the centre of Sarajevo
15 to Ilidza. There was a cease-fire in place at the time, and there had
16 been no combat activity near or around the tram on that day.
17 When the tram was about 20 metres past the stop at the Marsal
18 Tito Barracks, it came under a burst of gunfire from the left, which was
19 an area exposed to Bosnian Serb -- I beg your pardon, which was exposed
20 to the Bosnian Serb army-held area of Grbavica. This area was known to
21 be dangerous.
22 The witness heard people screaming and turned to see the
23 passengers and blood on the floor. The witness continued to drive for
24 about 50 metres, stopped where it was relatively safe, and opened the
25 doors. Passengers got out in panic. MP-229 saw some that had been
1 injured as a result of the shooting and also saw that the entire left
2 side of the tram had been riddled with bullets.
3 Scheduled incident B11 occurred four days later on March 3rd,
4 1995. MP-229 was driving a tram from the depot towards the centre of
6 UNPROFOR soldiers signaling to drive on. When the tram MP-229 was
7 driving reached safety, the witness stopped the tram behind three others
8 and there was told by Slavica Livnjak that Livnjak's tram had been shot
9 at. MP-229 went into Livnjak's tram and saw blood on the floor.
10 After a while, forces from Grbavica started shooting at the
11 trams. UNPROFOR soldiers returned fire, and the crossfire lasted for
12 about 15 minutes.
13 These experiences and the difficulties of living in Sarajevo
14 generally had a major psychological impact on MP-229.
15 That's the summary of the evidence of this witness, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 MS. EDGERTON: And I have no questions of the witness, the
18 evidence having been tendered.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you so much.
20 Any cross-examination?
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a few questions, Your Honours.
22 Might I just be given a minute to prepare.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Madam Witness. I'm going to
25 refer to you that way.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. You've had court experience, and the two of us speak the same
3 language. We understand each other, rather, so would you please make a
4 pause between my question and your answer so that I can switch off my
5 microphone and then you can continue. So just pause, count to three or
6 four before you answer my questions. Thank you.
7 We've just heard from that summary and introduction made by the
8 Prosecutor that you testified in the Dragomir Milosevic trial. Isn't
9 that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All of us here know that there was a first-instance judgement in
12 the Milosevic trial, Dragomir Milosevic trial. So were you interested in
13 learning what the judgement was?
14 A. No. I didn't follow that.
15 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you to testify in the same way as
16 you did in the Dragomir Milosevic trial, that is to say I'm going to show
17 you a map, and I'm going to ask you about the different localities. But
18 could you tell us just briefly what direction -- in what direction you
19 were moving? Do you remember what tram stop you stopped before the tram
20 was shot at? I think you said it was the Marsal Tito Barracks and so on.
21 So just in a few words and then we'll take a look at the map.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The incident took place when I did
24 my last round coming back from Carsija about 12.00, thereabouts; and when
25 I started from the Marsal Tito Barracks stop, that's when the shooting
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. [No interpretation]
4 A. Yes, that's right, from the centre towards the depot.
5 Q. So that's what you mean when you say Carsija?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You said in your statement, the one you gave to The Hague
8 Tribunal -- that was your first statement, to be more precise. It was
9 given in -- on the 13th of May -- no. On the 15th and 16th of November,
10 1995, is the date of that first statement of yours, and you said on that
11 occasion that when you stopped at the Marsal Tito Barracks stop that you
12 saw members of UNPROFOR there. Do you remember that?
13 A. No, I can't remember now.
14 Q. But anyway, you have had an opportunity, as you've just told the
15 Prosecutor, to read through your statement a few days ago, and you found
16 no reason to make any corrections, and you gave that statement in --
17 earlier on in 1995 when your memory was fresh.
18 A. Yes, that's right. That was probably it.
19 Q. Also in your statement, the one you gave to the Prosecutor in
20 March 1996, you said that the source of the firing came from the Grbavica
21 area to the left of you and that it was difficult to determine the source
22 because people were shouting and screaming in the tram. That's what you
23 said in that statement of yours. Do you remember?
24 A. Well, I -- you didn't ask the question properly. I said that the
25 shots came from my left-hand side. I didn't put it the way you said. I
1 said that the shooting came from my left side.
2 Q. But you also said you -- that you didn't hear any shots and that
3 you thought that the noise you heard was the wire above the tram, and
4 then you turned to your right to look at the passengers, and then you
5 realised, because when you testified in the Dragomir Milosevic trial you
6 said that you weren't aware that it was actually shooting that had taken
8 A. Well, that's right. There was shooting, something like that, but
9 I didn't realise that they were bullets. And I turned to my right
10 towards the passengers, and when I saw them falling down in the tram and
11 I saw blood, then things were clearer to me. But at the first moment I
12 thought that it was the wires breaking, the noise of the wires snapping
13 above the tram.
14 Q. Thank you. Let me remind you. The Prosecutor just told us in
15 the proofing session that you were shown your Milosevic testimony when
16 Judge Robinson, the Presiding Judge at that trial, asked you how come you
17 concluded that the shooting came from the direction of Grbavica. And on
18 page 1622 you said -- your answer was, because the tram was hit on the
19 left-hand side and that you knew that that was the area where the police
20 forces were stationed. Do you remember saying that?
21 A. Well, yes, I do. Yes.
22 Q. And you also said that you continued driving the tram for another
23 50 metres, roughly, to find a safe place to stop, and once you deemed it
24 safe you stopped the tram.
25 A. Yes, you're quite right. I continued driving the tram, but the
1 tram just moved forward for as much as it could have because the -- the
2 bullet was lodged in the front of the tram to my left where all the
3 wiring and installations are. So in fact, the tram couldn't continue, so
4 it -- the motion was through inertia and the energy it had beforehand.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd now like to ask the usher to
6 place the same map we used yesterday on our screens. I think it's 65 ter
7 448 or 4448. And can we zoom into the same area we were looking at
8 yesterday, please.
9 Q. And I'm just going to ask you to mark something on that map, but
10 let's just wait to have the map put up on e-court.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we -- yes, fine. To the left a
12 bit, and zoom in a bit more. Yes, that's fine.
13 Q. Madam Witness, can you find your way around this map now?
14 A. Yes. Yes, I can.
15 Q. You'll be given a pen, and can you indicate with a line and an
16 arrow the direction the tram was moving in and the Marsal Tito Barracks
18 A. Well, I can tell you the route I took, and it was this direction,
19 from Carsija or the centre of town through Marin Dvor, and then the
20 barracks were somewhere here in this area as far as I can see on the map.
21 Q. I completely agree with you. I think that that's where the
22 barracks were. So could you put a "B" there, please.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. For "barracks." And --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, six months down the line when you read
1 that, will you be able to recognise that for a "B"? Can we get a "B"
2 properly written maybe on the barracks themselves?
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe a capital "B" might help.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Could you put a capital "B" at the spot where you thought the
7 barracks were, a nice clear big "B." Take your time.
8 A. Over here. That's as far as I can make out on this map.
9 Q. The Presiding Judge, Judge Moloto, doesn't think that we'll be
10 able to read this when we come to look at this again later on, so perhaps
11 you could place an "X" at that spot. That would be simpler, perhaps, an
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Very well. Well, the usher will help us rub that out and mark it
15 again. Just place an "X" where the tram stop was to make matters
17 A. [Marks] I think you can see it now.
18 Q. You said in your testimony that you noticed that something was
19 happening and that you went on for some 20 metres. Now, could you mark
20 the spot roughly where the shooting started and the spot where the tram
21 was hit? And put a "1," if you can do that. If it's right next to the
22 previous marking, then you don't have to.
23 A. Well, I don't know why you want a number 1. It's right after I
24 left the station. So perhaps I could mark it right next door. So if
25 that was the tram stop, it might have been at that spot there or maybe
1 even closer to the tram spot.
2 Q. Well, it needn't be precise, just to give us a rough idea of what
3 was happening and what things looked like.
4 Now, can you draw in the locality where you think the forces who
5 did the shooting and shot the projectiles at the tram were located.
6 Could you circle that general area.
7 A. It would be the Grbavica area, so to my left. I'm going to draw
8 a circle around Grbavica like that.
9 Q. And could you put a number 2 in the middle of that circle,
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. We've already heard testimony, and will you agree with me when I
13 say that the Miljacka River
14 territories, if I can put that way, one area covered by the BH army and
15 the other area covered by the Republika Srpska in that part of town?
16 A. Yes, that's right, in that part of town, but I don't know where
17 the front lines were and things like that, where they had those lines,
18 but that would be it generally.
19 Q. And I'll ask you just one more thing. Could you please indicate
20 on this map whether you know where the Vrbanja bridge is located and mark
21 that with a number 3.
22 A. I can't say exactly, but it should be approximately around here,
23 in this area here. Somewhere around here, but I can't be precise.
24 Q. I think you've done very well. It's actually written on the map
25 but in very small letters. Could you please put a number 3 there. I
1 think you're quite right. I think you've got the spot exactly.
2 A. [Marks]
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this map be
4 admitted into evidence?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: This map is admitted into evidence. May it please
6 be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D2, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Tell me, please, after the moment when you turned round and you
11 saw that the passengers were in an unusual situation, did you personally
12 hear any shots after -- after that?
13 A. No, I didn't hear anything else except for the screaming of the
15 Q. Thank you. May I ask you the following: First of all, would I
16 be correct in saying that that was the only tram line functioning in
18 A. Yes. I don't know how familiar you are with Sarajevo, but that
19 was the only line. That's the only route the trams took.
20 Q. We heard some testimony -- or, rather, I read some testimony, and
21 you may know more about this, about when the tram started running in
23 A. I can't remember precisely, but it was about two or three months
24 before we began our training and before we were received into the
25 service, but I really don't know.
1 Q. Tell me, at that time how long was your daily shift?
2 A. About four or five rounds. I was in the first shift in the
3 morning, so it would be from around 5 a.m. to about 12.30 or 1 p.m..
4 Q. That was the morning shift, but was there an afternoon shift as
6 A. Yes, there was a second shift, as well, but it would all depend
7 on the situation.
8 Q. So there were two shifts from morning to afternoon? Am I right?
9 A. Yes, yes. There was the first and the second shift.
10 Q. From what my learned friend has read out, we heard that a few
11 days later, on the 3rd of March, you were in the tram again when you were
12 a witness to the second event when the tram in front of you was attacked.
13 This was some five days later if I remember correctly.
14 A. Yes. I continued working, and it happened again, the same
15 incident, but it was another tram that was hit this time.
16 Q. Madam Witness, in your testimony in the Milosevic case, on pages
17 1638, you stated that the Serb side did not respect the cease-fire. Will
18 you agree with me that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina also failed to
19 respect the cease-fire, and do you know something about UNPROFOR
20 protesting about their failure to respect the cease-fire in that period?
21 A. I don't know about that, but I do know about the Serbian army
22 because I was involved in these unfortunate incidents.
23 Q. Are you aware that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in late 1994
24 and in 1995 was considerably better equipped with weapons, that they also
25 had snipers? Do you know something about that?
1 A. Believe me, I really don't know.
2 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that part of Grbavica was also
3 under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
4 A. To the best of my knowledge, this part there was not under their
5 control. I'm not sure exactly where the lines were, but I know which
6 areas we could not pass through, which areas were out of bounds.
7 Q. In your testimony in the Milosevic case, Dragomir Milosevic, page
8 1623, answering a question by the Prosecutor, you said you did not
9 remember on the day when there was an incident involving your tram
10 whether there were any army of Bosnia-Herzegovina soldiers on your tram.
11 A. No. I remember them asking me whether there were any soldiers,
12 and I said that there happened to be a soldier next to me.
13 Q. That's what I was going to ask you because I read that in your
14 statement to the police, but it isn't clear from your testimony before
15 the court. So you said that after the incident when the tram was
16 inspected you saw a soldier of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina
17 tram and that you knew him from before because he had worked in the same
18 company as you. Is that how it was?
19 A. No. What I said was that the soldier was standing next to me,
20 and we started chatting as I was driving, and it turn out that we had
21 been colleagues, that he had been working in the same company as me, but
22 I didn't know him from before.
23 Q. Well, in any case, we have the statement on record. So he was a
24 soldier of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he was traveling on the
25 tram and talking to you in the course of the ride?
1 A. Well, I suppose he was a soldier because he was wearing an army
2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina uniform, but how would I know?
3 Q. You also said that you thought that a cable had snapped, but I'll
4 put the question more precisely, although I can anticipate your answer.
5 Before and after that, you didn't hear any other shooting in the area?
6 A. No. It was very quiet that day. There was no shooting or
7 anything else happening, at least in the town itself. I don't know what
8 was going on in the vicinity of the town.
9 Q. You didn't hear that there had been a clash on the bridge at
11 A. No. I was doing my job, and had there been something happening
12 someone would probably have told us, informed us about it.
13 Q. I have one more question about this incident. You said in your
14 testimony that when the tram was inspected afterwards, 30 bullets were
15 found in the tram -- or rather, in the body of the tram and the glass,
16 but we have information that eight or nine bullets were found. Could I
17 be right?
18 A. Well, you could be because I didn't count the bullets. I only
19 saw that it went in a zigzag line. When I got out at the depot, I went
20 out -- I got off the tram to take a look, but it was a burst of fire in a
21 kind of zigzag line. That's what I remember.
22 Q. With respect to the second incident, I have only one question.
23 You said that you heard that a tram which a colleague of yours was
24 driving, Ms. Livnjak who was in front of you, do you remember how many
25 trams were standing there? Was her tram the first? Were there other
1 trams there? Can you recall?
2 A. Yes, I do recall that. I didn't hear the shooting. I was the
3 second or the third tram in the line, but to the best of my recollection
4 Slavica was on that side, and then there may have been two other trams
5 between us, and mine was the third. And then I heard the shooting, and
6 then you know about the S-curve in Sarajevo, and then I went on. There
7 were one or two trams in front, and it was then that I stopped, and it
8 was only when I got out and came closer that I saw something was wrong,
9 and Slavica told me there had been shooting, and I saw blood.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this
11 witness, Your Honours. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic. Any
13 re-examination, Madam Edgerton?
14 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honours. However, I would ask your
15 indulgence if we could go into private session. I've noticed some -- two
16 occasions where I'd like to raise an issue with respect to a small
17 redaction, two occasions on the transcript.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Aren't we in closed is session? No. Okay. May
19 we go into private session, please.
20 [Private session]
11 Page 627 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Mr. Saxon, I saw you rising.
13 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I simply rose to indicate to
14 the Chamber that the Prosecution has no more witnesses available today.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much. In that event, I
16 guess we'll adjourn to tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon,
17 same courtroom. Court adjourned.
18 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Sorry.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Subject to the appeal judgement being delivered,
22 yes. As soon as it ends, we'll start, and the court is ready. Thank you
23 very much, so I can't give time. Court adjourned.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.00 p.m.
25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day
1 of October, 2008, at 3.30 p.m.