1 Thursday, 6 November 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
10 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
11 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Could we have the appearances for the day, starting with the
15 MR. SAXON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Dan Saxon, my
16 colleague Ann Sutherland, and Carmela Javier.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 And for the Defence?
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good afternoon, Your Honour. For the Defence is
20 Daniela Tasic, Chad
21 lead counsel, and I'm Gregor Guy-Smith.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 Mr. Treanor, I know you will know this, but it's still the duty
24 of the Bench to remind you that you are still bound by the declaration
25 you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole
1 truth, and nothing else but the truth.
2 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 Madam Sutherland.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 WITNESS: PATRICK TREANOR [Resumed]
7 Examination by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]
8 Q. Mr. Treanor, I wish to take you back to something you said at the
9 very end of the court session on Tuesday, which appears at page 1035 of
10 the transcript. There you were discussing the situation in Bosnia
12 elections and the number of seats won in the two houses of the
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly by the different groups. You stated on lines
14 4 to 9
15 "The Party for Democratic Action, which was basically a Muslim
16 party, won 80-odd seats, and the HDZ in Croatia won a smaller number of
17 seats. Each of those parties won a number of seats in the Assembly
18 roughly proportionate to the representation of the respective
19 nationalities in the population of BH."
20 Did you mean the HDZ in Croatia
21 A. No, I meant the HDZ in BH. Perhaps this might be a good time for
22 me to correct a couple of other errors I made in my testimony yesterday.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Once again, I believe that if there are errors to be
24 corrected, it is appropriate that counsel appoint the witness to where he
25 needs to go, as opposed to the witness independently determining what
1 needs to be done.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ms. Sutherland.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, I agree.
4 Q. Mr. Treanor, what were the issues that concern you in relation to
5 your testimony on Tuesday?
6 A. Well, two points, perhaps minor, but just so the record is
7 straight --
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me once again. I believe that we may be
9 having a transfer of function here. As I understand it, Ms. Sutherland
10 is the attorney; Mr. Treanor is the witness. If Ms. Sutherland,
11 representing the Prosecution, has concerns about the state of her record,
12 then she should direct the witness to how to correct that.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, Mr. Treanor should be given the
15 opportunity to correct anything on the record that he, on reflection, has
16 a problem with that he told you. We are here for the establishment of
17 the truth, not for the fact that he may have said something incorrectly
18 on Tuesday and is now not allowed to correct himself.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: There's a problem that's being posed here, Your
20 Honour, which is, as I understand it, there is to be no communication as
21 between the attorney and the witness during their testimony. Obviously,
22 what that would mean, then, is that the attorney, after reviewing the
23 record, has made a determination that there are some difficulties, either
24 mistakes, errors, or something incorrect. Obviously that's not the state
25 of play that we have here, which would cause me some great concern, and I
1 think I'll address that a little bit later.
2 But once again, if the attorney has some concerns - and I have
3 absolutely no difficulty with the assertion made that we're here to seek
4 the truth and find out what happened - if the attorney believes that
5 those difficulties exist, then they should lead or direct the witness to
6 where those difficulties are. Clearly, something else has happened here,
7 and to the extent that something else has happened here, I can address
8 that right now, but that's really a secondary issue to the -- my initial
9 objection. The secondary issue being that apparently there's been
10 conversation as between the witness and the representative of the OTP,
11 which, as I understand it, should not have occurred. He said he
12 understood the admonition. Apparently the admonition has been violated.
13 The extent to which it's been violated, I do not know, and the extent to
14 which we would need to -- or the Chamber may wish to inquire as to the
15 nature, manner, of discussion, time of discussion, whether or not the
16 discussion dealt with -- well, I won't define what it could have dealt
17 with, as a matter of fact, and perhaps it would be more appropriate for
18 the witness to leave the room at this point if that's the case. But in
19 any event --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have made a very serious accusation against
21 the professional conduct of your opposite number. May I find out from
22 you what the basis for that allegation is --
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- from what has transpired now.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Absolutely. We began the proceedings today with
1 the following -- with the following -- with the following, which is a
2 correction concerning the issue of where seats were won. Excuse me.
3 Thereafter, Mr. Treanor says: "Perhaps this might be a good time for me
4 to correct other errors I made in my testimony," at which point I direct
5 my objection in the way that I did. And Ms. Sutherland -- excuse me.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, what happened now we are all aware
7 of. Just tell us --
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Based upon what happened now, I was -- I am led
9 to believe that there's been contact between the OTP and the witness.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do you infer that?
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: By virtue of the -- of the question asked and the
12 answers given. Now, perhaps I'm wrong.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: So perhaps the best -- the best starting point as
15 opposed to the strength of my objection, in the event that I am wrong
16 because if I am wrong I certainly don't wish to offend, is to make a
17 determination, if the Chamber feels it appropriate, as to whether or not
18 there's been any communication as between the two parties.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem is I don't understand the logic of
20 your argument, but before I express how I interpret this, I would like
21 Madam Sutherland to give an answer, if she has any.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have not laid eyes on
23 Mr. Treanor, much less spoken to him, since he began his testimony on
24 Monday. Apart from seeing him in the courtroom, I have not spoken to
25 Mr. Treanor.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Then I stand corrected, and I apologise to
2 Ms. Sutherland personally, and I apologise to the Court for raising the
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I want to make -- give you an analysis
5 because I've been asking you for the basis of your allegation, and I want
6 to tell you -- to give you the basis for my view that Madam Sutherland is
8 Madam Sutherland stood up here and asked a question that was
9 supposed to correct about the issue of the seats won. So far as she had
10 re-read or read the transcript, that's what she felt needed correction.
11 She hadn't -- she didn't ask the next question. But the witness then
12 says, Maybe this will be an opportunity for me to correct other mistakes
13 that I made in my past testimony. He says this from his own recollection
14 of what he said on Friday and what he recalls as being the true state of
15 affairs in relation to what he said, and that is why Madam Sutherland --
16 when you object, Madam Sutherland says, Yes, Witness, what is the thing
17 you have concerns about, because she doesn't know. And why doesn't she
18 know? Because she has not talked to him.
19 Now, I don't see how, from that interaction, anybody can infer
20 that there had been a communication between the two.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, the mind is -- the mind is a curious thing,
22 and that's where my mind went. I obviously was mistaken. I recognise
23 the mistake that I've made and, as I said before and as I will say again,
24 to the extent that I engage in an illogical thought process, which on
25 occasion I think occurs with me and certainly with others, but certainly
1 with me, I apologise both to the Chamber and to Ms. Sutherland because I
2 certainly don't want to be in a position where illogic, as opposed to
3 logic, takes hold.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland, the objection is overruled.
7 You're allowed to ask the witness to tell us what it is he wants to
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Treanor.
11 A. Yes, Your Honour. Two issues in relation to events in early
13 First of all, the meeting known as the Convention for Yugoslavia
14 that took place on the 3rd of January in Belgrade took place in the
15 building of the federal assembly and not in the other building that I may
16 have mentioned.
17 Another matter relates to the sequence of decisions relating to
18 the referendums in Croatia
19 sequence is as follows: On the 21st of February, 1991, the Croatian
20 Sabor passed the resolution on the procedure for the dissolution of
22 constitutional law which, in effect, invalidated federal law within
24 National Council in Croatia
25 validity of Croatian law in the Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina.
1 Then on the 1st of April, 1992, came the decision that we saw, briefly at
2 least, relating to the scheduling of a referendum in the Serbian
3 Autonomous District, and it was then only on the 25th of April, 1992
4 that the Croatian Sabor passed its resolution on holding a referendum in
5 the whole of Croatia
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. I'm unclear as to the second date.
7 Do I understand that to be that of the 25th of April, which is reflected
8 on page 8, line 1, as a date correction?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is the correct date. I'm going by
10 memory. Again, I think, yesterday I may have said the 25th of March.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I was at a loss as to what was being
12 corrected because it's a very long paragraph, and if the date just
13 relates to the date of the 25th of April, thank you so much,
14 Mr. Guy-Smith.
15 THE WITNESS: I may have misstated the date of the 21st of
16 February as well.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
18 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND:
20 Q. Mr. Treanor, on the transcript before you, at line 8, you -- it
21 says: "Only then on the 25th of April, 1992, the Croatian Sabor passed a
22 resolution ..." Did you in fact mean --
23 A. I'm sorry, 1991.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: May I have Rule 65 ter number 02232 on the
1 screen, please.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: 0?
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: 02232, pages 2 to 4 of the English and pages 4,
4 6, and 7 of the B/C/S.
5 Q. Mr. Treanor, you finished testifying on Tuesday by telling the
6 Chamber of the number of seats won for the two houses in the Bosnian
7 Serb -- Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly. Can we move now to February 1991.
8 What was the Bosnian Serb view, re staying in one Yugoslavia at that
10 A. At this time the Serbian democratic representatives in the new
11 Assembly in the Serbian Democratic Party in Bosnia-Herzegovina still
12 wished to remain within Yugoslavia
13 attempt by the SDA deputies in the Assembly to introduce a resolution on
14 the independence and sovereignty of BH.
15 Q. And did they express this view publicly?
16 A. Yes. They issued a document entitled "The Views and Positions on
17 the Future of Bosnia and Herzegovina
19 Q. When did Mr. Izetbegovic, the President of the SDA, reveal the
20 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina's position in relation to Yugoslavia
21 A. Well, in -- as I mentioned, in this document, the Serbian
22 Democratic Party set out its position. The next month, in March 1991,
23 there was a meeting of the Presidents of the republics of the former
25 a certain statement after that meeting --
1 Q. Mr. Treanor, if you can just pause there --
2 A. -- which related to that issue.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may I seek to tender Rule 65 ter
4 number 02232 into evidence.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter number 02232 is admitted into evidence.
6 May it please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P175, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: May the Registrar call up 65 ter number 06784,
11 Q. Mr. Treanor, if you can continue. You were -- you stated that
12 Mr. Izetbegovic issued a statement.
13 A. Yes, after the --
14 Q. This is a document --
15 A. -- after the meeting in question on the 28th of March, 1991
16 through the discussions among the Presidents of the republics in which
17 the issue of federation versus confederation figured, Mr. Izetbegovic
18 made a statement which is quoted or cited in the press. I think it's at
19 the end of -- the very end of this document, which is in English, and I
20 will read it:
21 "Bosnia-Herzegovina President Alija Izetbegovic announced that
22 the republican parliament will soon adopt a declaration on the republic's
23 independence even against the will of the Serbian Democratic Party, the
24 second strongest party in the republican parliament. Similar
25 declarations have already been adopted --" it says adapted, should be
1 "adopted by the republics of Croatia, Macedonia, and Slovenia
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, if I might. The document itself, as I
3 have it, reads: "... would soon adopt a declaration of the republic's
4 independence" as opposed to "on the republic's independence."
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I could be directed to the paragraph that is
7 being read because --
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's at the bottom of the page, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: At the bottom of the page we've got a paragraph
10 that is incomplete. It's not completely visible.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Actually, I have --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It says: "President Tudjman reiterated he still
13 does not rule out the need for a possible internationalisation of the
14 Yugoslav question, particularly due to the situation in the Knin region."
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I might be of some assistance, Your Honour. It's
16 on the next page.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. It's not on the bottom of the page --
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: When I saw the half -- the unfull paragraph, I
19 didn't want to interrupt Mr. Treanor to ask the Registrar to take the
20 page down, thinking it was at the bottom of the page, but it's, in
21 fact, on page 2.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but even right down, there was nothing on
24 MS. SUTHERLAND:
25 Q. Mr. Treanor, you meant -- you were referring to the last
1 paragraph of this document, were you not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: May that document be admitted into evidence,
6 Your Honour?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
8 please be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P176, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 Yes, Madam Sutherland --
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might with regard to the last document, I
13 note that part of the document has been redacted. I don't know the
14 purpose of that, and I am not ascribing anything to that, the redaction
15 itself. However, it was my understanding that this was, I believe, a
16 public-source document that was from the witness's testimony, a document
17 regarding that was stated in the press. If I'm correct in that manner, I
18 don't understand specifically why we have redactions here. So if we just
19 have some clarification about that, I'd appreciate it.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. The document, as we can see
22 from -- if we go back to page 1 of the English translation, but you can
23 see on the B/C/S version, it was published in the Tanjug publication, but
24 the source of this document needs to be redacted because it's a Rule 70
25 source. But you can see clearly from the document here that it was
1 publicly -- that it was publicised and the date, the 28th of March, in
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what is Tanjug? Tanjug is a newspaper?
4 MS. SUTHERLAND:
5 Q. Mr. Treanor, can you ...
6 A. Tanjug was the official news service of the SFRY.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, if it was published like that, why must it be
8 a Rule 70 document? Who reads the Tanjug?
9 THE WITNESS: If that's a question for me, Your Honour, the
10 answer lies in the --
11 MS. SUTHERLAND:
12 Q. Mr. Treanor, I think the question for you was: Who reads Tanjug?
13 A. Who reads Tanjug. Okay, well, Tanjug is a news service, and they
14 distribute their product the way other news services do, AP, for
15 instance, to various media outlets both inside and outside the former
17 broadcast over radio or television.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then why does it become a Rule 70 document?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, because we don't have that issue of
20 Tanjug, and we have relied on -- and that we were provided this document
21 by a Rule 70 source. So we are simply using the Rule 70 source document
22 because we don't have the media article from 1991. And the Rule 70
23 provider requests that certain information be redacted.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And that's your understanding, Mr. Guy-Smith, that
25 this is a Rule 70 document?
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's my understanding now.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You didn't know that before?
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Once again, I'm going to have to check my records
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question was whether you knew this --
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right. I just have to double-check that first.
7 Just a second.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you understand us to do in the meantime,
9 hold on, wait for you?
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, no, no, please carry on.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Carry on and admit?
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, carry on and admit. I understand what's
13 going on. If I have any comments on it, they are certainly not fatal to
14 the admission of this particular exhibit, and I will respond to your
15 question once I have an answer.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
17 Yes, Madam Sutherland.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we have Rule 65 ter number 06697 on the
19 screen, please.
20 Q. Mr. Treanor, how did the Bosnian Serbs respond to this statement
21 by Mr. Izetbegovic?
22 A. Well, they maintained their position basically and issued another
23 document on the 10th of June, 1991. When I say "they," again, I mean the
24 SDS deputies in the Assembly.
25 Q. In that document, did they set forth their position in relation
1 to resolving the Yugoslav crisis?
2 A. Yes, they did.
3 Q. And what was that?
4 A. Well, if I could draw the Court's attention to page 6 of the
5 English translation.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Page 6 and 7 of the English, Your Honour, and 6
7 and 7 of the B/C/S.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, we are at page 6 in the English. I see it's
9 5 in the B/C/S.
10 THE WITNESS: At the top of page 6 in the English, I would draw
11 the Court's attention to the first paragraph, which I will read:
12 "In republics which have more than one state-founding nation,
13 citizens and nations may proceed to organise themselves into regions
14 based on economic, cultural, information-related, ethnic and/or other
15 interests. Regions (cantons, districts, provinces, et cetera) may have
16 certain original powers in terms of legislation, justice and
17 administration, and powers to regulate public utility services, like in
18 some modern European countries."
19 Then I would draw the Court's attention to the fourth and fifth
20 paragraphs on that page:
21 "Bosnia and Herzegovina, as a peculiar state shared by --" that
22 really should read "of" - three equally sovereign nations and citizens
23 can choose a uniform solution for its status in the," there's a word
24 omitted, "joint state of Yugoslavia
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, are you giving the corrections as you pick
1 them up from the Bosnian side also?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. I've looked at the original on this, and the
3 word "joint" is omitted there.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, it is important because Mr. Guy-Smith has to
5 know those kind of corrections, like we agreed the other day. Thank you
6 very much. You may proceed.
7 THE WITNESS: "... to choose a uniform solution for its status in
8 the joint state of Yugoslavia
9 agree to it. If there is no such agreement, the uniform solution,
10 regardless of its substance, cannot be foisted upon any one nation.
11 Instead, a solution must be sought which does not threaten any of the
12 nations, respecting their right to self-determination. In this
13 respect --"
14 In the next paragraph:
15 "In this respect the Serbian people in BH are in a satisfactory
16 position because they now share one state with other parts of the Serbian
17 nation and can continue to exercise this historical and natural right.
18 There is no way, apart from brute force, in which the Serbian people in
19 BH can be separated from Yugoslavia
20 their interests in the federal state."
21 So we see them restating the idea that they do not want to leave
23 formation of -- eventual possible formation of regions.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be tendered into
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
2 please be given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P177, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND:
6 Q. Mr. Treanor, there was reference in that document to regions.
7 Can you briefly, and very briefly, describe for the Court what had
8 happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina in relation to regionalization.
9 A. Yes. In April a community of municipalities of Bosnian
10 Krajina -- I'm sorry, of -- yes, of Bosnian Krajina was formed which
11 brought together numerous municipalities in Western Bosnia that were
12 under the control of the SDS and other communities of municipalities were
13 also formed at that time in BH, in other regions. I'm not sure how many.
14 The documentation is rather scanty. This is similar to the process that
15 we saw in Croatia
16 Q. And did --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. And this is April of what year, sir?
18 THE WITNESS: 1991.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND:
21 Q. And in September, following, then, this position set forth by the
22 Serbs that we have just looked at, the Bosnian Serbs, in this document,
23 were there any other developments in relation to regionalization in
24 September 1991?
25 A. Yes. In September a number of Serbian autonomous districts were
1 formed, again similar to the process that we saw in Croatia, where
2 communities of municipalities were transformed into Serbian Autonomous
3 Districts. Again, the documentation is rather scanty on this, but, for
4 instance, the communities of municipalities of Bosnian Krajina
5 transformed itself into the Autonomous Region of Krajina and the statute
6 for that region adopted on, I believe it was, the 15th of September,
7 1991, the new Autonomous Region of Krajina is described as an inseparable
8 part of Yugoslavia
9 Q. By October, mid-October 1991, what was the situation in the
10 Assembly, in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
11 A. Well, by mid-October, that is, the 15th of October to be precise,
12 the very thing that the Serbian Democratic Party leaders had feared
13 happened, something that had been presaged by the statement by
14 Alija Izetbegovic that we saw earlier; namely, the non-SDS deputies in the
15 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina voted a resolution on the sovereignty
16 and -- of Bosnia-Herzegovina and also basically disassociating itself
17 from the federation, withdrawing its representatives from federal organs
18 and proclaiming itself neutral in the -- as they put it, neutral between
20 was going on in Croatia
21 The SDS regarded this as a tremendous violation of the
22 constitutional order and indeed breaking of certain promises that had
23 been made to them by Alija Izetbegovic not to force such a resolution
24 through the Assembly. They regarded those resolutions, as I say, a
25 virtual declaration of independence, which they were strongly opposed to.
1 Q. Sorry, how did they react, the Bosnian Serbs, the SDS?
2 A. Well, they had a lot of meetings, and they considered that the
3 way forward, one result of the meetings was an announcement to the
4 Serbian people, which they issued on the 16th of October, 1991.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we have Rule 65 ter number 06688, please.
6 And that's page 1 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.
7 Q. Is this the document to which you've just referred?
8 A. Yes. I'd direct the Court's attention to paragraph 1, which
10 "At night of October 14th to 15th 1991, the deputy groups of SDA
11 and HDZ, along with deputies of some opposition parties, applying
12 political terror, attempted coup d'etat, by passing anti-constitutional
13 decisions, with the objective to annul the tradition of joint life of
14 Serbs, Muslims, and Croats. By this act, the constitutional
15 establishment has been endangered, which was based on sovereignty and
16 equality of constitutive nations, while the gate has been opened to
17 anarchy and chaos."
18 That is their view of the situation. I would now call the
19 Court's attention to paragraphs 4 and 5, perhaps even beginning with
20 paragraph 3, which states:
21 "The Serbian Democratic Party and its representatives at all
22 levels of the government shall ensure the safety of Serbian people at all
23 times, at any cost, using all means available."
24 Paragraph 4 states:
25 "If the constitutional order is not preserved," and there's a
1 word missing here, it should read "in the Assembly of BH, Serbian people
2 shall establish legal hierarchy in compliance with the constitution of
3 SFRY, ensure," the proper translation here would be "respect of federal
4 constitution, federal laws, civil and national rights, and shall organise
5 its own legislative, executive and judicial system, which every sovereign
6 nation is entitled to."
8 "By complying with the federal constitution and law consistently,
9 we are supporting," again a word left out, "the work of federal organs,
10 i.e., SFRY Presidency, Federal Assembly, and JNA, which is the only one
11 available to prevent forceful breaking apart of Yugoslavia," the "which"
12 referring to the JNA.
13 Paragraph 5:
14 "Sovereign nations shall decide on their destiny freely
15 expressing their own will."
16 "Serbian people shall remain in Federal state of Yugoslavia
17 unless otherwise decided at a plebiscite. Serbian people recognises the
18 right to other constitutive and sovereign nations to conduct their
19 plebiscites and decide on their future within Yugoslavia or out of it."
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be admitted,
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to this document, this is -- we'd
23 object at this time with regard to, first of all, the translation issues
24 that arise because there are a number of them, and I believe it would be
25 appropriate to have an official translation of this document.
1 Second of all, there are some questions with regard, and I
2 understand the procedure, the guidelines that we have, but there are some
3 questions with regard to the authenticity of this document and what this
4 document actually does represent. There is no date on this document --
5 I'm sorry, there is a date on this document. There's no stamp or
6 signature on this document. There is an indication that it has some
7 relationship to the Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but
8 beyond that, it's unclear. So there may be some issues with regard to
9 its authenticity and whether or not the witness's assertion of who the
10 document, in fact, can be attributed to is accurate.
11 There are two different issues. One is the translation issue and
12 the other is the issue with regard to authenticity.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess the translation, I thought we agreed the
14 other day that it will go in under the strict understanding that it will
15 be replaced with a subsequent translation.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Fine, fine. You see, my brain is not working as
17 precisely as it should today, Your Honour. With regard to the second
18 objection, then, I'll submit it.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 Madam Sutherland, with respect to the second objection?
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we would say it's a matter of
22 weight that you give the document, if it doesn't have a stamp or a
23 signature, that --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: But is the witness not in a position to explain
25 the absence of those?
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: He may well be.
2 Q. Mr. Treanor, can you shed any light on the matter?
3 A. Well, as far as the providence of the document is concerned, I
4 can state that it comes from the records of the Serbian Democratic Party
5 which were seized by Bosnian authorities after the beginning of the war,
6 if I can put it that way, in the spring of 1992. There was a large
7 volume of documents that were seized from the headquarters of the SDS in
9 at the top of the page which indicates that this document was either
10 faxed from or -- I think that's the origin fax line, faxed from the
11 offices of the magazine Javnost in Sarajevo. Javnost was the official
12 magazine of the Serbian Democratic Party.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: But a faxed document cannot explain the absence of
14 a signature, could it?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have no explanation for that.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, thank you. So that's the short answer: You
17 have no explanation for that.
18 There you are. We've been told the source of the document, sir.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understood the Chamber will give it whatever
20 weight it deems appropriate at that time, and I'll remain -- I'll remain
21 with the position we took. I understand.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may realise I hesitated a little bit. I was
23 trying to remember the question I wanted to ask for clarification,
24 Mr. Treanor. When you say it was seized from the SDS -- SDA -- SDS party
25 offices by the Bosnian authorities, which Bosnian authorities -- Bosnian
1 authorities of which ethnic group or of which institution? Because --
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand, Your Honour. Well, I think
3 colloquially we might refer to them as the Bosnian Muslim authorities --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought colloquially you called them Bosniaks.
5 THE WITNESS: They did not use that term in those days.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then we should clearly say Muslim, because they
7 are Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats, and the -- the Bosnian Muslim
8 authorities, those the ones you're referring to.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, which were the -- remained in Sarajevo as the,
10 I believe, internationally recognised government. I can also add, by the
11 way, that it appears to be a sort of press release which I don't know it
12 would require a signature.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's a press release.
14 THE WITNESS: It appears to be of that nature.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 Yes, okay, it is so admitted then, and may it be given an exhibit
17 number and marked for identification.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P178, marked for
19 identification, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. Mr. Treanor, did the SDS establish a legal hierarchy?
23 A. Yes, they did, shortly after the declaration which we've seen.
24 "Shortly after" meaning eight days later on the 24th of October.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can we have Rule 65 ter number 06600 on the
1 screen, please, and page 1 of the English and also the B/C/S.
2 THE WITNESS: On the 24th of October, the Club of Deputies of the
3 SDS, which was the body that had issued the previous declarations we've
4 seen, founded its own assembly. I would comment here that this shows the
5 contrast between the political position of the SDS and the BH, as opposed
6 to the political position between the SDS and Croatia. As result of the
7 elections in Croatia
8 seats in the Croatian Sabor, the Croatian Assembly, whereas the SDS, as I
9 mentioned, had 72 representatives and was represented in the government.
10 So their political base in Bosnia
11 importance within the general framework of that republic was much
12 greater --
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. I do hate to interrupt. If
14 Mr. Treanor could answer the question that was posed, as opposed to
15 dealing with something else, that would be appreciated. I'm not trying
16 to limit his answers whatsoever, but there was a question posed. On a
17 number of occasions, the witness has a tendency to give us information
18 which well be quite informative but it doesn't deal with the question
19 posed. The question posed is very simply: Did the SDS establish a legal
20 hierarchy?" That's at line 8 on page 23.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, the question was -- yes, fair enough.
22 Madam Sutherland.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, Mr. Treanor did answer that
24 question and proceeded to tell you about the legal hierarchy that they
25 did establish.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sure you will remember that last week the
2 Bench kept on admonishing Mr. Treanor to please be brief, concise, and to
3 the point, and answer the questions as we don't have much time. Yes, for
4 purpose of academics, it may very well be interesting to listen to you,
5 Mr. Treanor, but we don't have that pleasure of that kind of -- that kind
6 of pleasure, where we want answers to questions that are put only and
7 nothing else. You may proceed.
8 Therefore, I'm saying to you, Madam Sutherland, control your
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Treanor, if I could direct your attention to article V of
12 that decision on the foundation of the Assembly of the Serbian People.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was their position in relation to any enactments passed in
16 A. Well, I think paragraph V will have something to say about that.
17 I have to point out that I do not have hard copies of the English
18 translations at this point.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That cannot be acceptable, Mr. Treanor. We agreed
20 last week that you shall have the English version, you shall read from
21 the English version, and correct them to the extent that you pick up
22 mistakes. You can't be telling me that you don't have the English
23 version before you.
24 THE WITNESS: Well, I was under the firm impression, Your Honour,
25 that I was to be provided with the copies, and I was provided with copies
1 on Tuesday.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we provided a binder to VWS to pass
3 on to Mr Treanor at the beginning of his testimony today. I assumed that he had the
4 binder in front of him.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, let's find out where that binder is, because
6 then it means Mr. Treanor is -- again, is not reading from the same page
7 as we are reading.
8 THE WITNESS: Well, I can read the English on the screen.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I know you can. But if you don't have it before
10 you, you can't.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, he's saying he can read it on the
12 screen. On the e-court screen.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: On the screen. Why do you complain that you don't
14 have the English version? It's right in front of you.
15 THE WITNESS: Well, if I had it prior to this, I could have
16 compared it with the original. We can work off the screen.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: That was not the problem. The problem was not a
18 question of comparison. The problem was you just voluntarily told us
19 that you're not reading from the English version; you don't have the
20 English version. Now, if it is right in front of you, please avail
21 yourself of it and read from it, sir.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think things may go quicker if we
23 can locate the binder, and then Mr. Treanor can perhaps review the next
24 several exhibits in the next break so he can have that done.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's part of the running of your case, ma'am.
1 You'll do that. Carry on with the examination.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. In paragraph V we can say that it states:
3 "The Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina shall
4 recognise the validity of enactments passed by the Assembly of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina which are not contrary to the interests of the Serbian
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. Is this also in relation to -- were the Assembly of the Serbian
9 People prepared to recognise federal regulations at that time?
10 A. Yes, they were.
11 Q. And was that only if they were consistent with the federal
12 regulations and didn't violate equal rights in the interests of the
13 Serbian people?
14 A. They were prepared to recognise federal regulations, I think with
15 that reservation.
16 Q. Can I direct your attention to Article VI of the document.
17 A. "The Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina shall
18 recognise federal regulations and regulations of the republic, if they
19 are consistent with federal regulations and if they do not violate the
20 equal rights and interests of the Serbian people."
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be tendered into
22 evidence -- submitted into evidence.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's submitted into evidence. May it please be
24 given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P179, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND:
3 Q. What was the position, the SDS position, with respect to
4 remaining in a joint Yugoslavia
5 A. Well, they maintained their position, pushing to remain in
7 resolution to that effect.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have Rule 65 ter number 06655 on the
9 screen, please. Page 3 of the English translation and page 1 and 2 of
10 the B/C/S.
11 Q. Was this the decision you just referred to, Mr. Treanor?
12 A. Yes, that's it. I would draw the Court's attention to
13 paragraph 1, at the bottom of the page in the English.
14 Q. And that is --
15 A. If that could be blown up perhaps a little more.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: More importantly, if we can turn it over to the
17 next page. We've seen the bottom of page 1.
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 THE WITNESS: "Based on the right of self-determination, the
20 Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina ..."
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, there doesn't seem to be a second
22 page in this exhibit. Your Honour, I'll move on.
23 THE WITNESS: Perhaps it's the following exhibit, because this is
24 the same page in the gazette as the previous decision.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: It seems to be one of those technical days
2 because we are not finding that the document that we presently have up on
3 the screen in English comports with the document that we have as this
4 particular 65 ter number, 6655 number.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to help, Madam Sutherland?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I only have the ERN number for the
7 document. I don't know if that's going to help the Registry or not. The
8 ERN number that I want to be shown on the screen is SAO-1 -- sorry,
9 ET-SAO1-0629 to 0630.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: That would be, I think, page 3 of 3, then. We
11 have that as a three-page document.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: In the English translation, yes, so do I.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: So do I, but we're trying to ...
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm just trying to help out.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Does Registry have the other two pages?
17 Q. Dr. Treanor -- Mr. Treanor, do you recall if that decision states
18 that the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina will remain in the state of
20 autonomous region of Slovenia
21 expressed the same wish?
22 A. Yes, that's correct, but it requires that that decision be
23 confirmed at a plebiscite of the Serbian people.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland, was your previous question
25 answered by the Registry?
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour, it's not on the record,
2 but Madam Registrar shook her head.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, she did. I didn't see that. I thought you
4 were jumping the gun before she's able to answer you.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the ERN number provided by the
6 Prosecutor corresponds to the document on the screens --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, ma'am.
8 THE REGISTRAR: -- which is a three-page document.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can I mark that document for
11 identification, please?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it be
13 marked for identification?
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P180, marked for
15 identification, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, if I understand the state of this particular
19 document, we are, for purposes of the record, we are presently relying on
20 the witness's memory with regard to what the decision sets forth; is that
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: As I posed the question, Your Honour, yes.
23 However, Mr. Treanor has the B/C/S available to him on the screen.
24 Q. So, Mr. Treanor, can you confirm that that's your recollection
25 through reviewing the document in B/C/S?
1 A. The next page would have to be shown on the screen. Yes, that's
2 correct, II specifying that the decision will come into effect when it
3 had been confirmed by a plebiscite of the Serbian people.
4 Q. And the paragraph immediately above Roman numeral II is the text
5 that was --
6 A. Yes, that comports with what you had suggested I said.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if Rule 65 ter number 06755 could
8 be placed on the screen.
9 Q. Mr. Treanor, what happened as a result of the plebiscite?
10 A. Well, a plebiscite was, in fact, held among the Serbian people in
11 BH on the 9th and 10th of November, and that plebiscite produced an
12 overwhelming majority in favour of the decision that we just saw. As a
13 result of that the --
14 Q. Did they issue a decision in relation to that?
15 A. Yes. At the next session of the Assembly of the Serbian People
16 in BH, the deputies passed a decision based on the results of that
18 Q. And is this the decision that you were referring to that's on the
19 screen now?
20 A. Yes. I would direct the Court's attention to paragraphs 1, 2,
21 and 3.
22 Q. And basically was the territory that's mentioned in this decision
23 the same as the last decision that we just mentioned?
24 A. Well, let me read that. It says:
25 "Territories which are considered the territory of the federal
1 state of Yugoslavia
2 communities and settlements in which on 9 and 10 November the plebiscite
3 of Serbian and other peoples took place regarding their remaining in a
4 joint Yugoslav state together with the Republic of Serbia
7 registered voters of Serbian nationality, as well as citizens, members of
8 other nations and nationalities, declared to remain in the joint state of
10 Paragraph 2, which is a Roman II in the original, states:
11 "Parts of the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina from article 1
12 of this decision together with territories of the Republic of Serbia
13 the Republic of Montenegro
14 Western Srem, represent a core of a joint Yugoslav state."
15 Paragraph 3, which is Roman III:
16 "Municipalities, local communities, and inhabited places in which
17 the plebiscite was not carried out may express their will to remain in
18 the joint state as provided in Article 1 of this decision by means of a
19 plebiscite or a decision of the assembly of their municipality, local
20 community, or settlement, or they can organise in some other way."
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland, can I appeal to you to please
22 control your witness.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, I will, Your Honour. I undertake to do
25 May that document be tendered into evidence?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't cut me short when I'm still talking, Madam
2 Sutherland. I’m going to make you understand why I'm concerned. You ask a
3 question, clearly asking the witness whether this was the territory was
4 mentioned, and instead of mentioning it, he clearly says to you, Well,
5 let me read it. And then he goes and reads out a whole paragraph that is
6 going to be tendered into evidence that we can read later, taking a lot
7 of time, and burdening the record unnecessarily, and you just let him go.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I take your point and --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- it won't happen again.
11 Could that exhibit be tendered -- be admitted into evidence.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why should we, if we have read it already? It's
13 been read into the record. Why should we admit it? So that we can read
14 it twice over? Read it in the record and then read it again as an
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm not sure that the dates and the title of the
17 document are actually in the record, Your Honour, and for those
18 reasons --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You didn't ask any questions about dates and
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. Mr. Treanor, when was this decision issued?
23 A. This decision was issued on the 21st of November, 1991.
24 Q. And what's the actual full name of the decision?
25 A. The decision is entitled: "Decision Regarding Territories of
1 Municipalities, Local Communities, and Inhabited Places in BH which are
2 Considered the Territory of the Federal state of Yugoslavia."
3 Q. And the number of the decision, please.
4 A. This is decision number 36-02/91.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, there is no need to admit this
6 document --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. Mr. Treanor, as we bring the document up, if you could give the
10 Court your comment or opinion on the actual document without reading each
11 of the paragraphs into the record, that would be helpful. We have a lot
12 of documents to get through and not a lot of time to do it.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we have Rule 65 ter number 06602 on the
14 screen, please.
15 Q. Just before we look at that document, Mr. Treanor, can you -- are
16 you able to tell us what, if any, decisions were issued in relation to
17 the Serbian autonomous regions? Very briefly. Very briefly.
18 A. The Assembly of the Serbian People also passed a decision
19 verifying, that is, ratifying perhaps, the Serbian autonomous regions
20 that had been formed, stating that they were to be part of BH as federal
21 units in Yugoslavia
22 Q. When the Bosnian authorities sought recognition, what did the
23 Bosnian Serbs do in relation to forming their own state?
24 A. They proceeded to establish further organs of power at this time
25 and also to declare their intention to proceed to the formation of their
1 own republic.
2 Q. When did they do this?
3 A. This would have been on the 21st of December, 1991.
4 Q. Did they issue a decision in this regard?
5 A. They issued a decision to proceed to the formation of a republic,
6 and they also appointed a council of ministers.
7 Q. And did they do that in the document that you can see on the
8 screen now?
9 A. No. At the bottom of the screen, the beginning of one document,
10 it's there, and we should look at the next page as well.
11 Q. That's in the B/C/S?
12 A. Yes. At the bottom of the B/C/S page we see --
13 Q. And it has the number 21; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: And is the second page of the English
16 translation on the screen -- in e-court? Your Honour, I'm sorry, we
17 don't seem to have the English translation of that document. May it be
18 marked for identification, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is marked for identification. May it
20 please be admitted into evidence.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P181, marked for
22 identification, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And, Madam Sutherland, would that be a convenient
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 We'll take the break and come back at 4.00. Court adjourned.
3 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Sutherland.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, if I may correct the record, I
7 advised you previously that I had been advised that the binder was with
8 VWS to give to Mr. Treanor before the commencement of testimony today;
9 however, that's not the case. There was a miscommunication within the
10 Office of the Prosecutor and the binder remained there. So I just wanted
11 to correct the record.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Sutherland.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. Mr. Treanor, can I just remind you before we start that we have a
15 lot of documents to cover, and I would ask that you be as brief as
16 possible in answering my questions.
17 A. Of course.
18 Q. The last document that we looked at was in relation to the
19 decision to proceed to the formation of a Serbian republic. Did this, in
20 fact, happen?
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if I could have Rule 65 ter number 06604 on
22 the screen, please, and page 3 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, on the 9th of January, 1992, the Serbian
24 Republic of BH
1 MS. SUTHERLAND:
2 Q. Can you tell the Court what the territorial delineation was going
3 to be in relation to the new republic?
4 A. Briefly, it was to include the territories of the Serbian
5 autonomous districts that had been formed in BH, as well as other
6 territories which may wish to join.
7 Q. What date was this declaration?
8 A. I think I mentioned the 9th of January, 1992.
9 Q. Oh, sorry, you did, too. What did the declaration state in
10 relation to the federal state of Yugoslavia? If I can direct your
11 attention to Roman numeral II.
12 A. I'm sorry, this document is not in the binder I've been given.
13 It stated, quite briefly, that the republic is part of the federal state
14 of Yugoslavia
15 Q. How long after -- you mentioned yesterday the RSK had proclaimed
16 the Republic of Serbian
17 between the RSK and the Bosnian Serbs in Serbia -- Bosnia
18 A. I guess it would have been 19 days, from the 21st of December,
19 1991, to the 9th of January, 1992.
20 Q. Now, at that time was a commission set up called the Badinter
21 Commission, and if so, what was their role in the events in Yugoslavia
22 early 1992, if you could briefly tell the Court.
23 A. The so-called Badinter Commission was established around this
24 time in the closing months of 1991 by the European Community to rule --
25 I'm sorry, to offer recommendations, I think, as to how to proceed with
1 international legal issues connected with the events in the former
3 individual republics and matters of that nature. I think I referred to
4 it earlier when the RSK asked for recognition based on the guidelines
5 that had been issued by the EC.
6 And at this particular time in January, the Badinter Commission
7 came out with some decisions, one of which basically said that the SRBiH
8 had not yet filled the conditions for recognition and suggested that --
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, at this point I'm not clear as to
10 whether or not the witness is now interpreting the legal decision or not,
11 or whether he's giving his historical view of what an international legal
12 commission proclaimed. I don't know whether or not this particular
13 testimony is outside the expertise of this particular witness.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it's not my view that that's what
16 the witness -- the witness isn't interpreting a legal issue. He's simply
17 telling you what the Badinter Commission was set up for, what their role
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm specifically referring to page 37,
20 lines 15 and 16, in which the witness states -- I'm sorry, it starts at
21 14: "And at this particular time in January, the Badinter Commission
22 came out with some decisions, one of which basically said that the SRB BH
23 had not yet filled the conditions for recognition and suggested that ..."
24 at which point I rose.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that an interpretation of legal conclusion?
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: That was my concern at the time. For him to say
2 that it basically says something, it may well require the interpretation
3 of a legal opinion. Now, it's something that we can pursue perhaps when
4 I stand to speak with the witness, but at this point in time, I viewed
5 that in terms of the use of the term "basically" as an opinion with
6 regard to how he interprets a legal decision.
7 If we were having a discussion about, for example, let's say, the
8 Tadic decision, and I suggested that it basically discussed or created a
9 theory of liability that had yet to be dealt with in international law, I
10 would be, as an attorney, interpreting a legal decision, and it's for
11 that reason that I rise. If the Chamber is not in accordance, so be it.
12 My concern was we were beginning to get into an area of him interpreting
13 legal decisions. I don't believe he's being offered as an expert in that
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, my response to that is he's simply
16 stating facts, and he's telling you what the Badinter Commission called
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you understand the objection?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: I do.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection says he doesn't say the Badinter
21 Commission which stated A, B, C, D. He says "basically." He says the
22 following, which suggests an interpretation of the report by the witness
23 rather than telling us exactly what the report says.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, but the objection, as I understood
25 it, was that he was interpreting a legal -- a legal --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And by using the word "basically," he's giving us
4 his interpretation of it. That's the nub of the objection. And he's not
5 saying which literally says A, B, C, D, or which says A, B, C, D, but he
6 says which "basically" says A, B, C, D. In other words, he's giving us a
7 summary of what that says.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Point taken, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Treanor, if you can give the Court the objective facts, and
10 then you can provide the Court with your opinion on those facts.
11 A. I didn't realise "basically" had a legal meaning. Not being a
12 lawyer, I should have said "in brief," I suppose. I don't have the
13 document in front of me, but it did refer at the end the possibility of
14 holding a referendum in BH.
15 Q. Did the Bosnian Serbs issue any conclusions in relation to a
16 common state for the Serbian people?
17 A. Yes, they did.
18 Q. When did they do this?
19 A. That would have been on the 26th of January, 1992.
20 Q. Did the Bosnian Serb republic adopt a constitution?
21 A. Yes. On the 28th of February, 1992.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we have 65 ter number 06656 on the screen,
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, what should we do with 06644?
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: May that be admitted into evidence.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. It's so admitted. May it be
2 given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Just a clarification with the counsel, the
4 document on the screen is 06604, as I heard counsel.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, I misspoke, Your Honour. It's 06604.
6 Thank you.
7 THE REGISTRAR: So 65 ter number 06604 will be Exhibit P182, Your
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if we can have Rule 65 ter number 06656 on
11 the screen, please. Page 2 of the English and page 1 of the B/C/S,
13 Q. Mr. Treanor, is this the constitution that you were referring to
14 that was adopted on the 28th of February, 1992?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. And what organs did it allow to be set up?
17 A. This constitution established as the principal organs of power in
18 the republic an assembly, a government, a presidency, and of course
20 Q. And I direct your attention to Article 3 of the constitution.
21 What -- is reference made there to the fact that the republic is part of
22 the federal state of Yugoslavia
23 A. Yes. The article quite simply states that: "The republic is
24 part of the federal state of Yugoslavia
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender that document.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document is admitted into evidence. Will be
2 given an exhibit number. I'll say that again after I switch on my mic.
3 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
4 exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P183, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. Was any other legislation adopted at this time by the Bosnian
9 Serb republic?
10 A. Yes. At this same session the Assembly adopted several pieces of
11 legislation relating to the functioning of the new republic. It adopted
12 a constitutional law which contained transitional provisions until the
13 provisions of the constitution could be carried out, for instance, who
14 would act as the Assembly until the elections for the Assembly were held.
15 It also adopted other laws, such as the law on government, the law on
16 ministries, a law on internal affairs, and a law on national defence.
17 Q. And who was to carry out the functions, or what provisions were
18 made -- sorry. What provisions were made in relation to a president, for
20 A. Well, under the terms of the constitutional law, the powers of
21 the president were to be exercised by the two Serbian members of the
22 Presidency of the SRBiH until such time as a president was elected under
23 the constitution.
24 Q. Who were those two members?
25 A. Those two members were Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic.
1 Q. When was the -- you mentioned the law on defence and the law on
2 internal affairs. When were they to become operational? When was the
3 law to be enacted?
4 A. Well, they were to become operational eight days after their
5 publication in the Official Gazette of the Serbian Republic
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but then an event which took place on the 23rd of
7 March, 1991, so they would have become operational on the 31st of March,
9 Q. You said that the constitution was proclaimed on the 27th of
10 February, 1992, and that the -- as a result of the constitution, the
11 Serbian republic would remain as part of Yugoslavia. What, in fact, were
12 the prospects of them remaining within Yugoslavia at this time?
13 A. I believe the date of the constitution was the 28th of February.
14 The prospects for them actually remaining in Yugoslavia at this time were
15 not very good.
16 Q. What was the reason for that?
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have Rule 65 ter number 06668 on the
18 screen, please.
19 THE WITNESS: The reason for that was that, although it appeared
20 to be a simple matter to remain within the SFRY, in fact the -- all the
21 republics of the SFRY had -- or many of the republics had been recognised
22 as independent by that time, and Serbia
23 process of forming, if I can call it that, a new state consisting of
25 areas or the Croatian Serb areas remaining or being part of that state
1 would have caused tremendous international complications for the new
2 state in the view of the Belgrade
3 proceed with the formation of that state, including only the republics of
5 of -- at that time Croatia
6 was in the course of becoming recognised as a state.
7 Q. At the beginning of March, was this discussed within the
8 Presidency of the SFRY?
9 A. Yes. There was a meeting at the Presidency of the SFRY at the
10 beginning of March, on the 2nd of March to be precise. It was attended
11 by members of the Presidency and other officials of the SFRY, including
12 the acting secretary of national defence, General Blagoje Adzic, and
13 numerous Croatian and Bosnian Serb leaders including Radovan Karadzic,
14 Momcilo Krajisnik, and Goran Hadzic, and Milan Martic, for instance.
15 They discussed issues relating to the future of the Serbs in Croatia
17 new state that was being formed.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would ask that we go to page 35 of the English
19 translation and page 20 of the B/C/S, please.
20 Q. Mr. Treanor, what did Radovan Karadzic have to say at that
21 meeting in relation to the Republic of Bosnia
22 republic joining Yugoslavia
23 A. Well, he spoke in favour of a reconsideration of that decision by
24 the Belgrade
25 of the Serbian people had been carried out and the republic had -- the
1 Serbian Republic
3 recognised the reasons for that decision and accepted it.
4 In this passage we can see him saying:
5 "We decided not to demand joining Serbia. We also do not demand
6 staying in Yugoslavia
7 criticised for, and we can see what has created troubles for Serbia
9 Q. What did Mr. Adzic say about the matter, or General Adzic?
10 A. General Adzic didn't express a direct view on the political issue
11 but did explain to the Croatian and Bosnian Serbs the military
12 arrangements that were being made for the Serbian areas in those
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could go to page 50 of the English
15 translation - I'm not sure what page it is in e-court - and page 38 of
16 the B/C/S.
17 Q. Did Mr. Adzic say there would be -- what, if anything, did he say
18 in relation to options available in relation to the JNA?
19 A. Well, he said on page 51 --
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, I'm a bit -- and I do apologise for
21 interrupting. I'm a bit confused because the document that I see on the
22 screen in English does not refer to Mr. Adzic in English, and I don't
23 know what it's doing in the original. I think there's a -- there's some
24 kind of synchronicity problem at the moment.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: That was my concern as well. I said I wanted
1 page 50 because the proper pages weren't coming up in e-court. I'm
2 informed that it's the second translation attachment to the e-court.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The second translation attachment?
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: The second translation document that's attached
5 to the e-court system, Your Honour. It's all foreign to me, I'm sorry.
6 I'm simply --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you want to call that document on to the
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. It's page 97. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: So that second document, the attachment goes to
11 page --
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's actually page 50 of the translation of the
13 document, but it appears on page 97 of e-court of the second translated
14 document that's attached to that Rule 65 ter number within e-court, I'm
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Would you please go back one page to page 96.
18 If you could blow up around the middle of the page, please, where it's
19 Adzic -- thank you.
20 Q. Now, my question, Mr. Treanor, was: Did Adzic talk about
21 different options for the JNA?
22 A. Yes, he did, but I think that's at a later point in his
23 presentations in this meeting. It's not on this page. On this page he
24 refers to the stationing of the JNA in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
25 Q. Okay.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can now go to the following page, down the
2 bottom of page 97 and the top of page 98, please.
3 Q. Is that the passage that you just referred to, that you were
4 talking about? Down the bottom, it starts with the word "Therefore ..."
5 It's the very last word on that page. The paragraph starts: "I believe
6 that a decision will have to be made ..."
7 A. Oh, yes, that one.
8 Q. And the word "Therefore," and then if we go to the next page.
9 A. Yes. "Therefore, there can be two things. Either the army will
10 stay there ..."
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can we have the next page on e-court, please.
12 THE WITNESS: "There" being BH.
13 "... until a political situation is found or we will go to war in
14 Bosnia and Herzegovina and Yugoslavia
15 will go to a civil war. Then let it be Lebanon. We have no other choice
16 because the others will make us do so."
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Okay. Your Honour, may that document be
18 admitted into evidence, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland, you have indicated that this
20 document seems to have very many pages. Are you tendering the pages that
21 you've referred to, or are you tendering the entire document?
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would seek to tender the whole document, Your
23 Honour, because it will be referred to with other witnesses in the trial,
24 during the trial.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I refer you to our guidelines, ma'am. I guess
1 you've got a copy of those.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do we say about tendering voluminous
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: It says that relevant -- this is paragraph 24,
6 Your Honour, of your ruling. Sir, we can seek to have the portions that
7 Mr. Treanor has referred to into evidence. I am at this stage unable to
8 give you the e-court numbers, so perhaps if we can mark that document for
9 identification until I can come back to you with the page numbers.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: But what is wrong with admitting the pages that we
11 have referred to, and if other witnesses want to use some other pages, we
12 can admit their pages in, rather than put in a minimum of 97 pages, it
13 looks like two-thirds of which we might not read.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: I agree, Your Honour. That's what I just said.
15 But I said that I couldn't give you the page numbers at the moment
16 because the first cite I took you to, page 35, did not come back -- page
17 35 of the translation didn't appear on the screen, and so I want to give
18 you the exact e-court page numbers.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, I'm sorry, I hadn't understood where you were
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: So if we could mark ...
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland, remember, you referred us to two
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the second translation you called it as an
2 attachment in e-court.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I wonder if you can clarify which of each of those
5 documents you want admitted, which pages of each of those documents.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's right, Your Honour, and at this stage,
7 I'm not able to tell you that because I have certain numbers written down
8 on my index which aren't correlating to the --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: To the e-court pages.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- to the e-court pages. So I would ask we mark
11 that exhibit for identification, and then I can come back to you with the
12 actual page numbers of that big document that I would like to have
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We'll do so. Then the
15 document --
16 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, if I'm might. I am being told by
18 people who read a language that I don't -- that these two pages are --
19 don't comport with each other, that they're not synced up.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Sutherland --
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mister?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, I wanted to say "Mr. Treanor." I'm so
23 sorry to you and to you, too, ma'am.
24 May I ask you to fall back to the extra job that I asked you to
25 exercise for us, that is, to check whether the translation we have on the
1 screen does comport with the original we have on the screen. What's your
2 comment on that?
3 THE WITNESS: Well, it's -- it doesn't appear to be --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It doesn't appear to be --
5 THE WITNESS: -- the two pages don't appear to contain the same
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: But do you think the one is a translation of the
8 other, or do you feel it's not?
9 THE WITNESS: They appear to be different pages.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if I may assist, it looks --
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think if I understand it, at least from the
12 information I'm getting, that whatever the page is in the original and
13 whatever it says, we do not have in the English. The English page that
14 is presently -- that was presently up is not the same as the --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It doesn't tell us what is on the --
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, that's what I understood.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if I may assist, I think that the
19 page that was on the B/C/S page was the very start of Adzic's speaking,
20 and so the B/C/S would need to go over one or two pages in order to
21 catch -- to be the equivalent text of what was shown in the English
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then that's why -- I guess that's why
24 Mr. Guy-Smith stood up. Then make sure that we've got corresponding
25 pages before we decide on admission.
1 THE WITNESS: That passage would be on page 41 of the original.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see we're at page 42 of the original.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the B/C/S can be taken back one page.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's it. Are we now -- are the two languages on
5 the same page?
6 THE WITNESS: The two -- that passage, the translation of each
7 page does not correspond in the two languages. They overlap.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Yes, because I was going to say I don't see
9 the name "Carrington" in the B/C/S, which is slap-bang in the middle of
10 the English.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I took Mr. Treanor to two passages
12 at the beginning of Adzic's speech, which was on that other page, and
13 then the one that was on page 51 and 52 of the English transcript, so
14 those are the two portions that I would seek to tender.
15 Q. Mr. Treanor, can you --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought we had another point we were tendering,
17 and I was trying to make sense what you're saying.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm trying to -- we can see now that
19 Carrington's name is coming up in the middle of the B/C/S page.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: But what I would like someone to do, Mr. Treanor
22 or the Registry or case manager, to inform us as to what page in the
23 B/C/S and in the English the two passages that I referred Mr. Treanor to,
24 and that's starting -- Adzic's speech: "I think that we should not
25 mention the Yugoslav People's Army in today's announcement." That's the
1 first quote I took him to. And then the second one, starting on page 51
2 of the English translation, I don't know where in the B/C/S:
3 "Therefore, there can be two things. Either the army will stay
4 there until a political situation is found or we will go to war in Bosnia
5 and Herzegovina
6 Those are the two passages and a few more lines down that I took
7 Mr. Treanor to.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, are you able to find the two
9 pages on which those two quotations appear?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, I could try and locate the e-court
11 pages, which I will come back to you in due course.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, fine. When you have located them, can you
13 upload -- what do you say in your language, you upload or -- okay. They
14 are admitted into evidence, then, and can they be given an exhibit number
15 for now. You wanted this exhibit to be MFIed?
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, because I was unable to give
17 you the correct pages, I'm sorry.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right. Then give it an exhibit number, marked
19 for identification.
20 THE REGISTRAR: So that will be Exhibit P184, marked for
21 identification, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND:
24 Q. Mr. Treanor, Mr. Adzic mentioned that the army would stay there,
25 i.e., in Bosnia-Herzegovina. As they were to stay there, was the JNA
1 giving any direct assistance to the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have Rule 65 ter number 06800 on the
5 Your Honour, this was a document that Mr. Harmon used in his
6 opening statement and the Prosecution was to provide the Trial Chamber
7 with an English translation of the legend to the document. However, I've
8 been advised that the legend is not connected in e-court under this
9 exhibit number. It's, in fact, another number which I will call up in a
10 moment. But you will see the English translation, then, of the document
11 that was referred to, and we will get to the legend in one moment.
12 Q. What was the quantity of weapons that -- so we're talking --
13 we're talking March 1992. What was the quantity of weapons that the JNA
14 provided to the Serbs in Bosnia
15 A. The answer to that question is provided on page 6 of the
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can go to page 6 of the translation and
18 page - I'll try my luck - 8 of the B/C/S.
19 Q. What was the number of weapons?
20 A. In the middle of the English translation page, we can see under
21 point (f) the statement that the JNA has distributed 51.900 weapons, 75
22 per cent; in the SDS, 17.298.
23 Q. Mr. Treanor, can you tell the Court who this document is from,
24 his position, and the date of the document.
25 A. That document is a report by General Kukanjac, who was the
1 commander of the 2nd Military District of the JNA headquartered in
3 Q. If I can take you to paragraph 5, "Volunteer Forces in the 2nd
4 Military District," does it give a definition in this document as to who
5 volunteers are?
6 A. Well, it says who they aren't. This is a discussion of volunteer
7 forces attached to the 2nd Military District.
8 Q. And who are they not?
9 A. Under point (c), under 5, it states that:
10 "No volunteers are potential conscripts for regular units," or
11 war units, "of the 2nd Military District and only a small number are from
12 the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. In other words, the
13 volunteer units are not part of the JNA and the TO establishment
15 Q. Now, if we can --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, my own clarification. We're saying there
17 are only a small number from the TO of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and then
18 in the same breath, at the end we say that they are not part of the TO
19 establishment structure. Can we give the name of that last TO? Which TO
20 is this?
21 THE WITNESS: The TO of Bosnia-Herzegovina, saying that they're
22 not part of the TO, only a small number are from the TO. So these are
23 volunteer forces in addition to the TO and the JNA in BH.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, just for my clarity, can you just give me a
25 very single-worded answer? Of which army is the TO at the end?
1 THE WITNESS: In -- the TO in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Or is that
2 a more general question, what is the TO a part of?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, of which army. I'm asking you --
4 THE WITNESS: Well, the --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- this TO of which these volunteers are not a
6 part of, so the TO of which army?
7 THE WITNESS: The TO is part of the Armed Forces of the SFRY. It
8 is not part of the JNA.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fair enough. Maybe I should have said, "of which
10 country?" So this last TO refers to the TO of the SFRY.
11 THE WITNESS: Right, which is organised on a republic level, so
12 in this case we're talking about BH.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now you confused me.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, I'm confused.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You see, you can't say it's of the SFRY and then
18 say of the BH in the same breath.
19 THE WITNESS: The BH was still part of the SFRY at this time.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Therefore, the TO of the BH cannot be -- the TO of
21 the BH is TO of the SFRY, and therefore these two TOs that you're
22 referring to are the same TO.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you can say they are part of this but not part
25 of this. It doesn't make sense, that statement, then, because it is
1 saying they are -- they compose a small number from the TO of Bosnia
3 it is a misnomer to call them the TO of Bosnia-Herzegovina. They are
4 actually the TO of the SFRY. But in the same breath you're saying, "In
5 other words, the volunteer units --" I'm not saying you say, but the
6 statement says:
7 "In other words, the volunteer units are not part of the JNA and
8 the TO establishment structure."
9 Now, at that time there is only one TO establishment structure of
10 the SFRY. They are part of it, constituting a small number, but they are
11 not part of it. Can you explain that discrepancy -- apparent
13 THE WITNESS: The TO is part of the -- is a very large
14 organisation that covered the whole of the SFRY, and it was considered to
15 be part of the Armed Forces of the SFRY. The establishment structure of
16 the TO is based on the republics, so that is the first level of command
17 below the Presidency of the SFRY, if you will.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: Each republic had its own TO that, under certain
20 circumstances, in a war, came under the command of the SFRY Presidency.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: The BH was still part of the SFRY --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
24 THE WITNESS: -- and had its own TO --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. But then that TO in the BH is part
1 of the TO establishment of the SFRY.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: But now to say some people, small number, who are
4 members of the TO of Bosnia-Herzegovina but not members of the TO
5 establishment structure is a contradiction logically, if I follow what
6 you are explaining logically.
7 THE WITNESS: Well, in discussing the volunteer units, saying
8 that only a small number of the volunteers are from the TO, so they're
9 not in the TO. Why some of them should be from the TO at all, I do not
10 know. But I understand this document to say that most of the volunteers
11 are not part of the TO.
12 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation} I'm not sure I understand. Maybe
13 I will say this in French. It seems to me that what this paragraph
14 states is that the volunteers come originally from the TO, the
15 Territorial Defence, but are not part of the Territorial Defence; is that
16 right? But originally they come from the Territorial Defence.
17 THE WITNESS: Well, it says only a small number are from the TO,
18 so some of them were from the TO.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're talking about a small number only. And if
20 I understand what Judge Picard is saying, would this mean that they have
21 resigned from the TO to make themselves volunteers, and that's why they
22 are not part of -- they are no longer part of the TO establishment
24 THE WITNESS: As I stated earlier, I do not know why they should
25 be part -- how that took place. I do not know how that took place.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We can't take the matter any
3 You may proceed, ma'am.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. If we can have Rule 65 ter
5 number for the attachment --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's dispose of 06800, please, first.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. I would seek to tender that
8 into evidence.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it be given an
10 exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P185, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: And the index or the legend that's attached to
14 that document is part of Rule 65 ter number 05698, if that could be
15 brought onto the screen.
16 Your Honour, that was the English -- you can see the English
17 translation, and that's the document that was requested during the
19 Q. Mr. Treanor, that's -- do you agree that that is the legend
20 that's attached to the Kukanjac document, that's referred to in the
21 Kukanjac document?
22 A. Sorry, which legend?
23 Q. The document that's on the screen at the moment, do you agree
24 that that's the legend that's referred to in the Kukanjac document?
25 A. I'm not sure which legend is being referred to.
1 Q. In relation to paragraph 5, volunteer units in the second
2 military district zone are indicated on the map and in the legend in
3 great detail, and then it lists the number of weapons that are provided,
4 and that is 69.198, and then in paragraph (f) you gave a breakdown of
5 those weapons distributed by the JNA and the SDS.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, madam --
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. And I'm asking you, you've reviewed these documents --
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: My problem is that this document that you've
11 referred to as a legend does not give us information about weapons but
12 about men.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. That lists the number of men
14 per municipality of volunteers, and it says that the JNA has
15 distributed -- I'm sorry, if I can take Mr. Treanor to it, rather than
17 Q. Paragraph (f) of this document, Mr. Treanor, gives the breakdown
18 of the weapons distributed. And you mentioned that the JNA had
19 distributed 51.900 weapons, which was 75 per cent, and the SDS had
20 distributed 17.298. If you add those two figures together, do you get
21 the total amount -- the total number of volunteers --
22 A. Yes, which is --
23 Q. -- volunteer forces, which is referred to in paragraph 5?
24 A. 69.198, yes, which is a number that also appears in
25 subparagraph (b), under 5 --
1 Q. And so --
2 A. -- the enlisted men number, 69.198.
3 Q. And so this legend that's attached to this document lists the
4 municipality and the number of men, with a grand total of 69.198, which
5 corresponds to the number of weapons that have been distributed in
6 paragraph (f).
7 A. Yes, the two numbers correspond, yes.
8 Q. Am I right? Okay.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may this document be admitted into
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's so admitted. May it be given an exhibit
12 number, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P186, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. Mr. Treanor, after this date, i.e., the 27th of May, 1992, did
17 the negotiations still continue?
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if we could have Rule 65 ter number 06612 on
19 the screen, please.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, negotiations were continuing after the 27th of
21 March, 1992.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND:
23 Q. Are you aware of National Security Council?
24 A. There was a Bosnian Serb National Security Council, yes.
25 Q. When was that set up?
1 A. On the 27th of March, 1992, by the Bosnian Serb Assembly.
2 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, I misspoke a moment ago when I said that after
3 this date and the document being the 20th, I said the 27th. But the
4 National Security Council was set up on the 27th of March. What occurred
5 in Bosnia
6 A. Well, a lot happened in Bosnia
7 Q. In particular in relation to --
8 A. A very important development was the international recognition of
9 the independence of BH on the 6th and 7th of April, 1992.
10 Q. And is that --
11 A. This would have been the recognition by the EC states and the
12 United States.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did it take place on the 1st of April or on the
14 6th and 7th of April?
15 THE WITNESS: The 6th and 7th.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, the question was -- where is the question
17 now? I thought the question was: What happened on the 1st of April?
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, beginning of April, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The beginning of April. I'm so sorry, thank you
20 very much.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. Did the EC members issue a written declaration?
23 A. Yes. Written statements were issued on the 6th of April.
24 Q. And is this the document that we see on the screen before you?
25 A. No, this is not the EC declaration.
1 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. What is this document that's in front of us in
2 relation to the declaration on recognition?
3 A. This is a media report about a session of the Bosnian Serb
4 Assembly, the media in question being Belgrade Radio.
5 Q. And does it state what the EC and member states decided in
6 relation to Bosnia-Herzegovina?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Direct us to --
8 THE WITNESS: It doesn't appear to.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I really apologise.
10 We'll leave that document.
11 Q. What impact did the declaration that we --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, you're withdrawing the document?
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: I am, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. What impact did the declaration of independence of Bosnia have on
17 the development of the Republic of the Serbian People in
19 A. The international recognition of the independence of BH prompted
20 the Bosnian Serb Assembly to declare the independence of the Serbian
21 Republic of BH
22 Q. When did that occur?
23 A. That occurred at a session that took place in -- on the night of
24 the 6th of April and continued into the early morning, I believe, of the
25 7th of April, 1992. That was indicated in the previous document.
1 Q. Did the Bosnian Serbs -- did the Bosnian Serb Assembly conduct an
2 Assembly session on the 12th of May, 1992?
3 A. Yes, there was a session on that date.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we have Rule 65 ter number 06277, please.
5 Q. What was the main aim of this session and its importance to the
6 Bosnian Serbs?
7 A. The importance of this session was that it dealt with certain
8 matters of the restructuring of the Bosnian Serb republic.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if we can --
10 Q. What session number was it?
11 A. This is the 16th session. It was the first session after the
12 session that proclaimed independence early in April.
13 Q. So what were the certain matters on restructuring that occurred
14 at this session?
15 A. Well, the two principal matters were a restructuring of the organ
16 of the Presidency and the formation of an army.
17 Q. Did the Assembly adopt any goals in relation to the Serbian
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could go to page 67 of the English
21 translation. It's on page -- I'm sorry, it's on page 13, not page 67.
22 It's on page 13 of the English translation, and it's on page 7 of the
24 Q. Can you please tell the Court what were those goals that were
25 announced at the 16th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly.
1 A. Well, I can do that by reading, perhaps, the -- just the first
2 paragraph that has been marked on the copy I've been given, which is the
3 first full paragraph in the middle of the page, "The Serbian side ..."
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just paraphrase it, sir. If it's going to be
5 tendered, then I don't think you need to read all of that long paragraph.
6 THE WITNESS: This paragraph states that -- it states that the
7 goals which Radovan Karadzic is speaking about in this speech were --
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. What was the first goal? What was the first goal that was
11 A. He says that the first goal is separation from the other two
12 national communities.
13 Q. Meaning? Who's he referring to there?
14 A. The Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Croats.
15 Q. What was the -- how many goals were there? How many goals were
17 A. There were six goals altogether.
18 Q. So that's the first one. What was the second one?
19 A. The second goal - this is going to the next paragraph on that
20 page - the next strategic goal, it seems to me he says, is a corridor
21 between Semberija and Krajina.
22 Q. What was the importance of that corridor?
23 A. The area being referred to is along the southern bank of the
24 river Sava
25 only land route that connected the eastern part of the Bosnian Serb
1 republic with the western part of the republic, and it was therefore
2 important as the land route which connected Serbia with many portions of
3 the RSK in Croatia
4 Q. What was the third goal?
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, my finger doesn't work.
7 Does it connect Serbia
8 western parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the north?
9 THE WITNESS: Both, Your Honour. The eastern part of the Serbian
10 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina bordered on Serbia, therefore linking the
11 eastern part of the Serbian republic with the western part, also linked
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina with the larger part of the Serbian Republic
14 Krajina, that is, the Serbian republic in Croatia, because it does not
15 have any land border with Serbia
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND:
18 Q. And does Dr. Karadzic state in relation to the second goal that
19 it is of greatest interest "because we cannot have unity of Serbian
20 states if we do not have that corridor"?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What is the third strategic goal that was announced?
23 A. The third goal was in the next paragraph, the following
24 paragraph. He states:
25 "The third strategic goal is to establish a corridor in the Drina
1 Valley, that is, elimination of the Drina
3 Q. What is he referring to there? What are the two worlds?
4 A. Well, I'm not precisely sure what two worlds he's referring to.
5 The Drina
6 in this case portions of the Serbian Republic
7 Drina Valley
8 Republic of BH
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, excuse me, if we could have as the page in
11 Serbian, and I'll use the ERN number because that's the way that it's
12 being referred to me, it's 0214-9447, that would have the two -- that
13 would be the Serbian original page, and I was just informed that that
14 puts the two of them together.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
16 THE WITNESS: It also would have made portions of the border
17 along the Drina
18 the Bosnian Serb republic and given them communication in those
19 particular areas with Serbia
20 Valley, was not under the control of the Serbian Republic
22 MS. SUTHERLAND:
23 Q. What was the fourth goal?
24 A. The fourth strategic goal is discussed in the following
25 paragraph. I'll just read the first sentence again:
1 "The fourth strategic goal is establishment of the border on the
2 Una and Neretva rivers."
3 Q. What's the importance of this goal?
4 A. This goal specifies two other portions of the external border of
5 the Serbian Republic
6 north-western part of BH. Part of BH is on the western bank of the Una,
7 which would be the left bank. At this point -- in this goal, he appears
8 to be claiming only the right bank, the eastern bank. The Una ran north
9 through BH into the Sava
10 northern border of BH, or in this case, if the corridor were formed, in
11 large part, the northern border of the Serbian Republic of BH.
12 The Neretva is in the south. It flows through Mostar down to the
13 sea. The establishment of a border on the Neretva, and I think the
14 reference is again to the eastern bank of the Neretva which, in this
15 case, it runs in the opposite direction, would be the left bank, as being
16 claimed, would have given the Bosnian Serb republic control of the whole
17 of the eastern Herzegovina
18 its control at this point.
19 Q. What was the fifth strategic goal that was announced?
20 A. The fifth goal was dealt with in the following paragraph, which
22 "The fifth strategic goal is division of the city of Sarajevo
23 into Serbian and Muslim parts and implementation of an effective state
24 government in each of these two constituent states."
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could go over to the next page on the
1 English translation, please.
2 Q. What was stated by Karadzic as being the importance of that goal?
3 A. Well, he states further in that paragraph that:
4 "The battle in and for Sarajevo
5 tactically as a decisive importance because it does not allow the
6 establishment of even the illusion of a state. Alija does not have a
7 state while we have part of Sarajevo
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, I don't know whether or not the
9 witness is reading now in English or from Serbian, because what I'm
10 reading is different. I have it -- "because it does not allow even for
11 the illusion," and the existence of the word "establishment" is not
13 THE WITNESS: I'm reading what is in front of me in hard copy,
14 "because it does not allow --"
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're looking at the screen.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I withdraw what I just said. I've got two
17 screens going right now, and I've made the mistake.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Apparently we have -- apparently what seems to be
20 the case is that we have three separate translations for the same
21 document that have been supplied to us, so that's why that occurred.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: This is the final CLSS translation that we're
23 looking at at the moment.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Great.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND:
1 Q. Mr. Treanor, what was the sixth and final goal that was announced
2 on the 12th of May?
3 A. The sixth goal is dealt with in the following paragraph, and I'll
4 just read the first sentence:
5 "The sixth strategic goal is the access of the Serbian Republic
6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina to the sea."
7 Q. And what's the importance of that goal?
8 A. Well, I think many states consider having access to the sea
9 important, and the only access that BH had to the sea is a very small
10 portion of the Dalmatian coast, and it was not under the control of the
11 Serbian Republic
12 Q. Now, those goals were announced by -- strategic goals were
13 announced by Dr. Karadzic. Did anyone else from the Bosnian Serb
14 leadership give their opinion as to which of the goals were the most
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And who was that?
18 A. Well, I think several people probably addressed various goals,
19 but Momcilo Krajisnik certainly indicated what he thought was the most
20 important goal.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can go to page 49 of the English
22 translation and page -- it's on page 37 of the B/C/S. I don't know what
23 page number in e-court, I'm sorry.
24 Q. What does --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: While you're looking for the page number in
1 e-court, what do you think of the convenience? Maybe that will give you
2 more time to find the page number?
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if it's possible, if we could just
4 deal with Mr. Krajisnik.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND:
7 Q. Mr. Treanor, what does Mr. Krajisnik say is the most important
8 goal or goals?
9 A. I would direct the Court's attention to the bottom of the page,
10 the bottom of this page, just before the first underlined portion.
11 Mr. Krajisnik says:
12 "As for the goals, I would just like to offer an explanation,
13 since I have also taken part in adopting these goals. We must make a
14 choice regarding one thing. The first goal is the most important in
15 relation to all other goals. All other goals are subitems of the first."
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour, that would be a
17 convenient moment.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will take a break and
19 come back at a quarter to 6.00. Court adjourned.
20 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you proceed, Madam Sutherland, I'm advised
23 that the pages that you are going to search for have been identified.
24 Can we just give it -- the admission regularised.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the pages that are tendered from
1 P184, which is currently marked for identification are the following:
2 The English e-court pages are page 1, page 96, page 97, page 98, and
3 page 81, out of a total of 145 pages. And the B/C/S pages in e-court are
4 page 1, page 20, page 38, page 41, page 84, and page 86 out of a total of
5 155 pages, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
7 Madam Sutherland.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour. Could Rule 65 ter
9 number 09235 be brought up on the screen.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, Madam Sutherland, I think you
11 have -- before you do that, could we finalise 65 ter 06277, Madam
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I haven't finished with that
14 document as yet.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you're calling another one?
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. I want to intersperse this one. I'm
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND:
20 Q. Mr. Treanor, what will be coming up on the screen is a map, and I
21 would like you to take the Court very quickly through strategic goals
22 numbers 2 to 5
23 of the evidence that you just gave before the break in relation to the
24 strategic goals, if you can.
25 So, with respect to strategic goal number 2, the corridor between
1 Semberija and Krajina, can you explain briefly to the Judges, in relation
2 to the map, that strategic goal.
3 A. Yes. Immediately above the word "corridor" the Court can see the
4 red line, which is the northern boundary of BH, and it follows the course
5 of the river Sava
6 corridor would have been along the southern bank of the river connecting
7 the two parts. They are labeled Semberija and Bosnia and Krajina. Part
8 of what is in the middle of BH was not under the control of the Serbian
9 Republic of BH
10 along the course of that border, the river in the north.
11 Q. The third strategic goal refers to the establishment of a
12 corridor in the Drina Valley
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- that goal?
15 A. The eastern border of BH is indicated by a red line again, and
16 the blue line is the course of the river Drina. As the Court can see, it
17 follows the border for much of its distance and departs from the border
18 at a certain point and continues further south. Actually, okay, it comes
19 from the south. And again, the whole distance of this river was not
20 under the control of the Serbian Republic
21 such control would have enabled -- facilitated a connection between
22 Semberija in the north and the southern portion of the republic, the
23 south-eastern portion, which is around the word "Neretva" down there,
24 which is Herzegovina
25 Q. And so to the left -- left bank of the Drina is
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina and to the right bank of the Drina is what?
2 A. Is Serbia
4 Q. The fourth strategic goal is to establish a border on the Una
5 river and the Neretva river. Can you explain to the Court using the map
6 that goal?
7 A. Yes. The course of the Neretva river is marked in blue, looping
8 around the word "Neretva" and, as the Court can see, it flows into the
9 sea in Croatia
10 part of the loop, would have given the Serbian Republic of BH control of
11 the whole of Eastern Herzegovina, and if they took the whole course --
12 the whole eastern bank, it would have, of course, given them access to
13 the sea.
14 Q. The fifth strategic goal is the division of Sarajevo into Serbian
15 and Muslim parts. I think that's obvious where Sarajevo --
16 A. Sarajevo
17 the sea, other -- there were other possibilities for gaining access to
18 the sea.
19 Q. And that is the sixth strategic goal, access to the sea?
20 A. Without taking the eastern bank of the Drina within Croatia
21 they were able to gain control of the part of BH which -- of BH which
22 goes to the sea, which is indicated by the little loop just below the
23 words "Access to the sea," that was BH's access to the sea, the small
24 port there.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: May the map be admitted into evidence, Your
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: This map is admitted into evidence. May it please
4 be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P187, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. Returning now to Rule 65 ter number 06277, the 16th session of
9 the Bosnian Serb Assembly, Mr. Treanor, did -- who was appointed as --
10 you said that the 16th session passed laws in relation to the forming of
11 the army, of the Bosnian Serb army. Who was appointed commander of that
13 A. The military commander that was appointed on this occasion was
14 General Ratko Mladic.
15 Q. Now, at this session did he talk -- did he make reference to any
16 of the goals?
17 A. He made some references which appear to relate to the goals.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could turn to e-court number 35 of the
19 English translation and page 28 of the B/C/S.
20 Q. What did Mr. -- General Mladic say at that session in relation to
21 the goals, as you -- as you understand it?
22 A. Well, right in --
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- as framed and as the question has been asked
1 thus far, it calls for a level of speculation as to what is in the mind
2 of the author, if we're in a situation where we're talking about directly
3 somebody saying something, so there's not this interpretive aspect of
4 what somebody is saying. That's a different matter. So if I could
5 perhaps know where we're focused here with regard to this relatively
6 lengthy conversation, I'll know whether or not my concern is that of
7 speculation or not, which is he said, He appears to, which is distinct
8 from with regard the goals he stated that, or he responded in a fashion.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, my next question -- Mr. Treanor's
10 answer was he made some references which appear to relate to the goals,
11 and my next question was: "What did he say in relation to the goals as
12 you understand it," meaning that you say that he appeared to make some
13 expression in relation to the goals. That's what I was wanting
14 Mr. Treanor to answer.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, he's now being asked to perform a function
16 of a fact-finder. I think this is a matter which the question is asked,
17 especially in light of the answer given, and this is outside of --
18 outside of the purview of his expertise, and it also calls for
19 speculation. If the document here is one of those situations where it
20 speaks for itself, the Chamber can read it as easily as anyone else and
21 can make a determination of what they believe its import to be, whatever
22 that import may be. His interpretation does not assist in this area.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand what the objection is all about.
24 You rose up, Mr. Guy-Smith, after the question, "What did General Mladic
25 say at that session in relation to the goals, as you understand it?"
1 There's no "appears to relate" in that sentence. The "appears to relate"
2 is in former sentence which you didn't object in the previous sentence.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I should have jumped up quicker, Your Honour. If
4 you take the two in conjunction, and "as you understand it," what he
5 understands it to be is, apart from being vague and speculative, is
6 irrelevant, what he understands it to be. Mr. -- General Mladic made a
7 statement, whatever that statement may be. That statement is apparently
8 open to interpretation. Now, this witness is not offered as a
9 psychologist for purposes of what's in General Mladic's head. He's not
10 offered for purposes of rendering opinion as to what the internal
11 thinkings of General Mladic. He's offered to speak about objective facts
12 and objective events that account for information of a historical and
13 political nature which allows you to make a determination of their
14 import. But what he understands this to mean, among other things, apart
15 from being speculative, outside the purview of his expertise, is
17 I could tell you what I understand it to mean, and if I were to
18 testify about what I understood it to mean, I think you would rightfully
19 say, Well, thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith, but what your
20 understanding is is not particularly relevant. You can make an argument
21 as to what the perception you have of a fact, but that's a different
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have anything to say? If you don't, I am
24 ready to rule.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I don't agree, but you can make a
1 ruling, or I can approach you --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you don't have anything to say, then the
3 objection is upheld.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND:
5 Q. Mr. Treanor, did Mr. Mladic -- General Mladic say in that
6 session -- did he advise the session whether he had met with the
7 leadership in Belgrade
8 discussed in relation to that?
9 A. Yes, he made reference to a meeting in Belgrade.
10 Q. And what did he say in relation to that? If I can --
11 A. In the middle of the page we're looking at -- I realise it's very
12 hard with this passage to say exactly where it is. But in the line
13 beginning with "Many of you ..."
14 "Many of you have helped me. I already said this a few days ago.
15 I kept on repeating certain things. I said this in Nevesinje before the
16 top leadership of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and before
17 an even more select political leadership in Belgrade."
18 Q. If I can take you to the sentence beginning "Please ..." which is
19 just before that sentence.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Does he mention anywhere about -- about goals being set for
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What does he say?
25 A. He says: "Please, let us not set before ourselves goals that
1 will bring us down. Let us set before ourselves the goals we can
3 Q. And then he goes on to say the sentence that you just quoted a
4 moment ago.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That many people have helped him and that he discussed certain
7 things --
8 A. Yes, that sentence.
9 Q. And he kept on repeating certain things, and he said this: "In
10 Nevesinje before the top leadership of the Serbian Republic
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina and before an even more select political leadership in
13 A. That's the sentence.
14 Q. Did he also make reference in that session in relation to keeping
15 the work of what they were doing secret?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What did he say in relation to that?
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could go to page 38 of the English and
19 page 28, I think, of the B/C/S.
20 Q. What does General Mladic say about the work that they're doing?
21 A. Well, just above the middle of the page in English, in the line
22 beginning with the words "About when to keep mum ..."
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, it may be on page 29 of the B/C/S.
24 Q. I apologise for interrupting, Mr. Treanor.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can go to the sentence and blow it up,
1 starting "And please, ..."
2 THE WITNESS: That's in a couple lines above, beginning with:
3 "Whatever else there is, to keep it short, and please, let us not
4 only put our minds into what we are doing, but let us also think
5 thoroughly about it and let us be cautious about when to keep mum. No,
6 the thing that we are doing needs to be guarded as our deepest secret."
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. When -- do you know when these strategic goals were actually
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry, I normally have not risen for this
12 reason, but this is a level of cherry-picking that I think potentially
13 offends. If read, the language before and after, that particular
14 statement, I think, puts it into that proper context, and I think it
15 would be appropriate at this time rather than a later point in time for
16 me to say, Well, you read sentence number 3 and 4, you should read
17 sentence number 1 and 2 and 5 and 6. If this particular passage, or
18 these particular two sentences are read in the context of its entirety,
19 then the Chamber is in a position to take a -- an intelligent and
20 objective analysis of what's being discussed there, if that can even be
21 done. But certainly just picking out those two particular sentences and
22 then tying them in to whatever the Prosecution theory is is not
23 appropriate and certainly does not achieve what we're supposed to be
24 doing here, which is to see that the truth emerges.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I've simply taken Mr. Treanor to
2 two passages, one about the goals and one about the fact that he wants to
3 keep the work that they're doing secret. I have simply asked
4 Mr. Treanor, does he know --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: We know what you have done, madam. What is your
6 response to the objection?
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm saying it's unfounded. I'm directing
8 Mr. Treanor to a completely different question. I'm asking him when the
9 goals were published. I have moved away from --
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I am objecting -- I am objecting to your
11 moving away because you are, in my respectful submission,
12 mischaracterising what is being said there, and the Prosecution is
13 engaged in cherry-picking with regard to the statement made by
14 General Mladic. I mean, if I go up a sentence before, then the passage
15 would read as follows:
16 "I believe that at this very moment it is very important to place
17 at the head of the Serbian people both --"
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. --
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry, I don't want to read the whole thing,
20 but --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't want you to read anything.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I may, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very sorry. You are going to have an opportunity
24 to cross-examine, are you?
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I am, and for the most part I've left it alone.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, Mr. Guy-Smith, are you now wanting the
2 Prosecution to direct its examination according to how you want it? If
3 you are going to cross-examine, obviously when you do do that, you will
4 come to this page and quote everything that you need to have quoted to
5 put what was said in the examination-in-chief in context.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Absolutely. And for the most part this is
7 something I have left alone. I find this one to be, in my estimation, of
8 particular moment because, as we know, although this is an adversarial
9 process under two specific notions; one is the doctrine of completeness,
10 and the second is the duty of the prosecutor is not merely to convict but
11 also to see that justice is done. When cherry-picking that presentation
12 of the evidence, in my respectful submission, offends not one but both of
13 those particular principles, which does not mean that these are not
14 matters I will raise in cross-examination.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, then, how does the Chamber get the Prosecutor
16 to ask questions she doesn't want to ask?
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I don't believe -- well, part of it is
18 perhaps through the either gentle or forceful objection of the Defence,
19 and the other is within the context of the recognition of what the
20 precise duties are. I think I understand. The Chamber's position is
21 that it is preferable, based on what you've said thus far, that when I
22 have the opportunity to cross-examine the witness, I can point out those
23 particular points. I think that --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And this whole page is going to be tendered.
25 There's no way the Prosecution can tender only those lines without
1 tendering the entire page which forms the context that you want.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, if that's -- if that's the case, then I
3 have some comfort.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you ever think it wouldn't be the case that
5 the page would be tendered together with those sentences?
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I was -- I have been concerned that in terms of
7 redaction and cutting that we may be in that position, yes, having --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: But it is practically impossible, Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I've actually been in a situation where
10 I've seen that occur so ...
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where they cut and paste from the page?
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Where they cut or redacted and cut from the page
13 and then presented.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: When that happens and you believe that the context
15 of the -- of what is being cut is being lost, stand up and object.
16 At this point, the objection is overruled. You may proceed,
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Treanor, the question that I put to you was: Do you know
20 when these goals were published?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when was that?
23 A. In November 1993, the Official Gazette published a document
24 which, I believe, was entitled the resolution or decision, conclusion,
25 probably of the Assembly, which contained a very abbreviated version of
1 the strategic goals --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Treanor. You've answered the
3 question in the first three lines -- three words. Can you ask the next
4 question, please.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be admitted into
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted into evidence. May it please be
8 given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P188, Your Honours.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can document number 06732 be put on the screen,
12 Q. Mr. Treanor, what was specifically was the impact on the command
13 structure? You said that they had formed their own army, but who was to
14 be in command of the army?
15 A. Well, the overall commander of the new army was the president of
16 the republic.
17 Q. And as of that stage, I think, as of the 12th of May, what was
18 the situation in relation to the president of the Serbian republic?
19 A. Well, the president had not been elected. The two acting
20 presidents had been exercising the powers of the president of the
21 republic, and on the 12th of May the Assembly passed an amendment to the
22 constitutional law that restructuring the provisional/transitional
23 Presidency, if you will, by forming a three-member Presidency which would
24 exercise the powers of the presidents of the republic until such time as
25 the president was chosen.
1 Q. Who were the members of the three-member presidency?
2 A. The three members were Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic, who
3 had been the acting presidents, and Radovan Karadzic was elected as the
4 third member.
5 Q. If I can draw your attention to amendment III of the document in
6 front of you. First of all, can you tell the Chamber what this decision
7 is in relation to the constitution, or how it relates to the
8 constitution, I should better say?
9 A. The decision that's mentioned on the previous page is the
10 decision proclaiming the amendments to the constitution, one of which
11 amends the constitution to include reference to the army and its
12 commander, or who is to lead the army, and that's contained in amendment
14 Q. And then in amendment III we have the -- and does it also make
15 reference to the fact that the president of the republic appoints,
16 promotes, and discharges offices of the army of the Serbian Republic
17 BH in accordance with the law?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be admitted into
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
22 please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P189, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can we have exhibit -- Rule 65 ter 06733.
1 Q. This is -- is this the document that you referred to earlier when
2 you said that they issued a decision on the formation of the army and
3 appointed Mladic as commander?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may this document be admitted into
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
8 please be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P190, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND:
12 Q. What was Mladic's position before he became commander of the Main
13 Staff of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 A. He was the Chief of Staff of the 2nd Military District.
15 Q. When did he take that appointment, approximately?
16 A. That was at the end of April 1992.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can we have Rule 65 ter number 06605 on the
18 screen, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get clarity on which appointment is
20 this, the 2nd Military District or commander of --
21 THE WITNESS: This is appointment as commander of the new army of
22 the Serbian republic.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Exhibit 190 is the -- is that, but Mr. Treanor
25 referred to his prior position from April 1992.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's why I wanted to know. Now, that date of
2 April 1992, does it refer to the former job, or does it refer to this?
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: The former job, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND:
6 Q. You mentioned earlier in your evidence, Mr. Treanor, that they
7 adopted laws relating to the army and that was the law on the army and
8 the law on the defence. What we see on the screen now is the law on the
9 army, is it not? When was that, in fact -- when was that decision taken
10 to implement that law?
11 A. The law on the army was passed on the -- I believe it was the 1st
12 of June, 1992.
13 Q. If I can take you to Article 174, which is on page 25 of the
14 English translation and page 17 of the B/C/S. It states there in Article
15 174 that the supreme commander of the army is the president of the
16 republic. Now, you told us a moment ago that on the 12th of May, they
17 passed a law, a constitutional law amendment so that there could be a
18 three-member Presidency with Biljana Plavsic, Nikola Koljevic, and
19 Radovan Karadzic.
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. So at that point they would be the supreme commander of the army;
22 is that right?
23 A. Yes. The Presidency was exercising the powers of the president,
24 so the Presidency was the commander-in-chief of the army.
25 Q. On the same date, on the 1st of June, 1992, when they passed this
1 law on the army, did they pass any other constitutional laws?
2 A. Yes, they did.
3 Q. What were they?
4 A. They passed another amendment to the constitutional law that
5 again restructured the transitional office of the Presidency by providing
6 that it be expanded from three to five members, under certain
8 Q. Who were the members of the extended Presidency?
9 A. Well, the members of this expanded Presidency would have been the
10 three members of the Presidency, with the addition of the President of
11 the Assembly and the President of the Government.
12 Q. And who were those persons?
13 A. Momcilo Krajisnik was the President of the Assembly and
14 Branko Djeric was the President of the Government.
15 Q. Did that law say how long this extended Presidency -- or what
16 were the conditions upon which the extended Presidency was to be set up?
17 A. The law stated that that was to apply during a state of war.
18 Q. And in that law did it then say how long -- what was the duration
19 that they were then to be acting as the president of the Serbian
21 A. There was no temporal time limit put on. Just the condition of a
22 state of war.
23 Q. When was Karadzic elected President of Republika Srpska?
24 A. Radovan Karadzic was elected President of Republika Srpska on the
25 17th of December, 1992.
1 Q. And if I can just take you back, when did the Republic of the
2 Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina turn into the Republika Srpska?
3 A. There were -- in August 1992, pursuant to further constitutional
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document that's on the
6 screen, the law on the army, be admitted into evidence, please.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 06650 is admitted into evidence. May it
8 please be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P191, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: May I have exhibit number 06659 on the screen,
13 Q. Is this the decision that you were referring to on the 17th of
14 December, 1992, electing Karadzic to -- as President of RS, Republika
16 A. No. In the Serbian it's showing, but it's not showing in the
17 English. In the Serbian it's showing at the top of the right-hand
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, if we could use the second
20 translation that's attached to the e-court for that Rule 65 ter number.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Just for purposes of clarification, perhaps I'm a
22 bit confused, the document that was previously discussed, that being the
23 amendment to the constitution for which the witness indicated there was
24 no time limit, is not a document that has been proffered at this point.
25 Am I correct?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wasn't it P191?
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not sure. That's why I'm -- I thought --
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, that wasn't -- I didn't bring that document
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: We just talked about it.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: All right.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. Mr. Treanor, the document that's now on the screen, is that the
10 decision electing Karadzic as President?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can that document be admitted into
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted. May it please be given an
16 exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P192, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND:
20 Q. Mr. Treanor, I would now like to turn your attention to the
21 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. You mentioned in the beginning of your
22 testimony about the formation of a new Yugoslavia. When, in fact, was
23 that formed?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if I could have Rule 65 ter number 00441.01
25 on the screen, please.
1 THE WITNESS: That was on the 27th of April, 1992.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND:
3 Q. And what happened on that date?
4 A. A constitution of the new Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was
6 Q. And what was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, commonly known
7 as the FRY, what was that to be composed of?
8 A. It was composed of the Republics of Serbia and Montenegro.
9 Q. If I can draw your attention to Article number 2 of the
10 constitution, could it be joined by other member republics?
11 A. We don't have the translation of that showing, and it's not in
12 this binder. It could be joined by other entities.
13 Q. Do you recall -- do you know the article numbers in relation to
14 who commands the army of the FRY, the article numbers of the constitution
15 which --
16 A. Not off the top of my head. If I could look at the constitution
17 from my Serbian binder, I'd be pleased to find that.
18 Q. If I could direct you to Article 135.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm just finding the page number
20 for the English translation.
21 Q. Mr. Treanor, Article 135, does that tell you who commanded the
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And what does it say?
25 A. Well, since I don't have --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, you still haven't given us the English
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm sorry, the
4 English translation has not been uploaded, and I apologise for that.
5 It's only the cover page. We'll move on.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. Mr. Treanor, who was the president of the new Federal Republic
10 A. At this date the powers of the president of the new republic were
11 being exercised by the Presidency of the SFRY until such time as a
12 president of the FRY was elected.
13 Q. And who was that?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, just can I interrupt? Just to make sure
15 that the record is clear, by "move on," do you mean that you withdraw
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: At this stage, Your Honour, I don't seek to
18 tender it because we don't have the translation in the system.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I just wanted to make sure that the
20 record shows what fate it was.
21 You may proceed, ma'am.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND:
23 Q. Mr. Treanor, who was as elected as President of the FRY?
24 A. Dobrica Cosic was elected President of the FRY.
25 Q. Do you recall the date?
1 A. He was elected on, I believe, the 15th of June, 1992.
2 Q. I'd like to turn now to the Supreme Defence Council. What is
3 that body?
4 A. The Supreme Defence Council in the SFRY was a body established by
5 the constitution of the SFRY in article 135. It was composed of the
6 president of the republic and the presidents of the Republics of Serbia
7 and Montenegro
8 Q. What were the names of those persons?
9 A. The President of the Republic of Serbia
10 Milosevic, and at this time the President, or President of the
11 Presidency, of Montenegro
12 Q. Besides these people, who also attended Supreme Defence Council
14 A. The Supreme Defence Council meetings were attended by other high
15 federal civilian and military officials, such as the prime minister or
16 the president of the government, the minister of defence, the Chief of
17 the general staff, sometimes other members of the general staff or other
18 high military commanders.
19 Q. Who was the Chief of the General Staff at that time in mid-1992?
20 A. I believe the Chief of Staff at this time was Zivota Panic. I'm
21 not sure when Zivota Panic came in. He replaced, I believe,
22 General Adzic at around this time.
23 Q. Who was the minister for defence?
24 A. The Minister of Defence would have been -- well, I suppose
25 initially the -- immediately after the 27th of April, until the formation
1 of a new government, the minister or acting minister of the SFRY would
2 have been acting defence minister, and that would have been
3 Blagoje Adzic, until such time as he resigned which, as I say, was around
4 this time.
5 Q. And the prime minister?
6 A. Again, until the formation of a new government in the summer
7 after elections took place on the 31st of May, 1992, the acting prime
8 minister would have been the prime minister or the acting prime minister
9 of the former SFRY.
10 Q. Was the SDC, the Supreme Defence Council, governed by any rules
11 of procedure?
12 A. Yes. The SDC adopted rules of procedure at its third session, I
14 Q. Do you recall approximately the date?
15 A. I believe that was in July 1992.
16 Q. And did those rules of procedure set out how the SDC was to
17 conduct its work?
18 A. Yes, they did.
19 Q. And what -- what was the process, the procedure, that had to be
20 followed according to these rules in relation to its work at the
22 A. Well, it stated that it would carry out its work at the sessions
23 on the basis of materials supplied to it by the federal -- by federal
24 organs, such as the Ministry of Defence or the General Staff.
25 Q. Was it to adopt -- how was it -- how did it arrive at its
1 decision-making process? What was the decision-making process?
2 A. Well, they made decisions by consensus, and the president of the
3 republic issued the appropriate -- the appropriate orders in his name.
4 Q. We discussed earlier the strategic objectives that were announced
5 at the 16th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly on the 12th of May,
6 1992. Was the FRY leadership aware of those strategic goals?
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have Rule 65 ter number 06974 on the
8 screen, please.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could go to page 41 of the English
11 translation and page 49 of the B/C/S.
12 Q. What is this document?
13 A. This is a transcript of an audiotape of the 2nd session of the
14 Supreme Defence Council held on 8 July 1992.
15 Q. What draws you to the conclusion that the FRY leadership were
16 aware of the strategic objectives enunciated by the Bosnian Serbs?
17 A. Well, they hold a discussion about military activities in the
18 neighbourhood of Sarajevo
19 They express their disapproval of those activities and suggest that --
20 they try to convince the Serbs in Bosnia
21 change their strategy, "to take the pressure off us."
22 Q. What does Dobrica Cosic say about that in particular?
23 A. He says at the bottom of page 42 -- is that what we're looking
25 Q. Page 41.
1 A. I'd spare the Court the beginning of the discussion on page 41
2 and just move to page 42.
3 Q. Mm-hm.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: And that's page 42 of the English translation
5 and I think also 50 of the B/C/S.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, at the bottom of page 42, in the conclusion of
7 this discussion, Dobrica Cosic says:
8 "Momir, we all have work to do here to convince Serbs in Bosnia
9 to change their strategy, to take this pressure off of us," and Momir
10 being Momir Bulatovic, I believe.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND:
12 Q. And then does Zivota Panic have anything to say on this issue?
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could go to page 43 of the English
14 translation and page 51 of the B/C/S.
15 THE WITNESS: Well, yes, on page 43 of the translation, the
16 second speaker on that page, Zivota Panic, I think to understand his
17 remark it's best to refer to the remark made below it by Dobrica Cosic,
18 so I'll read both. Zivota Panic says: "They made a strategy plan, and
19 they're going to realise it." Dobrica Cosic says: "I feeling that
20 everything developed according to a strategic programme. Every
21 concession we make triggers the next step of theirs towards the
22 achievement of the main aim, the main aim being obviously breaking this
23 area and this country that we're trying to establish." The "they" being
24 referring to are the opponents of the Bosnian Serbs and the strategic
25 plan that Dobrica Cosic is alluding to is -- would be their plan.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland, if you may just refresh my
2 memory, in the decision on the admission of Mr. Treanor's report, did the
3 decision not deny admission of the summaries of the minutes on the basis,
4 amongst others, that the Chamber can read those minutes? It's just a
5 compilation of minutes.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Am I wrong to surmise that this is a record of the
8 minutes, a transcription, he called it, a transcription of the
9 audio-recording of the minutes?
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, you're right. You're correct, it
11 is a transcript of the 2nd session; however, this is referred to in
12 Mr. Treanor's report. He refers to eight or so sessions of the SDC
13 minutes, or transcripts, in his Belgrade
14 has been allowed to testify about, and --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: While we are in the midst of a break, as I
17 understand it, these are the transcript notes of an audio-tape, and we do
18 not have a copy of that audio-tape. And I would ask at this point,
19 depending on where there's going, that this document be MFIed until we
20 can deal with issues of authenticity and other issues, and I leave it at
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if I may respond. The Prosecution
23 does not have an audio of these transcripts either. These were provided
24 to us by the Serbian government, the transcripts and the minutes, but we
25 were not provided with audios.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Uh-huh. Very well. I'll leave it at that for
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. On that "uh-huh" note, we'll leave it at
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be admitted into
6 evidence, in particular the pages that we have referred to during
7 Mr. Treanor's testimony.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. It looks like there are lots of pages.
9 The pages of 65 ter 06974 that have been referred to are admitted into
10 evidence. May they please be given an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Those pages would be Exhibit P193, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have Rule 65 ter number 06669 on the
14 screen, please.
15 Q. Mr. Treanor, do you know of any other example where the FRY
16 leadership were aware or made reference to the strategic objectives of
17 the Bosnian Serbs?
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I think that mischaracterises, in fact, the
19 testimony thus far. The pages just read and the testimony just given
20 talk about a strategy which is open to interpretation based upon the
21 information contained therein. The question is also leading.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's see.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I don't agree, if I may.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please, you may, ma'am.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: As we said to the last objection, the Defence
1 are able to cross-examine Mr. Treanor about this. My earlier question to
2 him was, Were you aware of any strategic -- the FRY leadership being
3 aware of the strategy objectives. He said yes. I took him to one
4 document. My next question was: Are you aware of any other examples
5 where the strategic objectives were mentioned by the FRY leadership, the
6 strategic goals?
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: See, the distinction is -- the distinction
8 between strategic objectives and strategic goals is strategic goals have
9 obtained a -- are almost a term of art here. As I was reviewing the
10 previous documents, it's clear that there's a discussion about a
11 strategy, and it's clear that that strategy may well be involved with
12 issues concerning Sarajevo
13 the SDC's awareness of the strategic goals, as the Prosecution suggests,
14 is a different matter.
15 Now, if the Prosecution wish to ask about the matter of strategy
16 or strategic objectives, because initially -- and I did not object
17 earlier because issues of objection as opposed to goals, I consider there
18 to be a distinction, perhaps a distinction without a difference to the
19 Prosecution. But quite frankly, among -- well, the objection is for two
20 reasons. I think, first of all, I maintain it mischaracterises the
21 previous testimony, and second of all, it's leading.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I think I now understand what you're
23 saying. Let me just make sure I do. By "mischaracterisation," you are
24 saying strategic goals are now being cast as strategic objectives.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's correct.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine. That's a simple one to resolve. I.
2 Thought Mr. Treanor is testifying here as an expert and not an
3 ordinary witness. Therefore, questions of leading would not be that very
4 relevant because, in fact, he testifies with his report in front of him
5 to refresh his memory. The essence is going to come when he gives this
6 Court his professional opinion based on all that we are going through
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Absolutely understood, Your Honour, but once
9 again, the mere fact that one is qualified to testify as an expert
10 doesn't necessarily mean that one is qualified to testify about all
11 things that he is presented with.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fair enough. All I'm saying -- okay, finish your
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I am in total agreement with you with regard
15 to the general proposition. I am in absolute agreement with you. An
16 expert obtains a different position with regard to the question.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because he’s not being tested on his recollection
18 of events; he's coming to give an opinion.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: We're in agreement here.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. But then in that event are you saying
21 that an objection that a question is leading would be valid?
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: It would be valid depending on how one views him
23 as an expert. He's an expert of what? He's proffered as an expert of
24 history, he's proffered as an expert of political science, he's proffered
25 as an expert of an interpretation of what somebody else believes is
1 appropriate to do politically? I mean, they are different -- distinct
2 issues. And to the extent that he's being proffered as a historical
3 expert, I would stand in a position where I would not have any arguments
4 with you whatsoever.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not sure I understand your argument.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might. Upon consideration and an
8 understanding -- understanding what the Court has just said, at this
9 point for purposes of this specific question, independent of the issue of
10 mischaracterisation and -- I'll withdraw the objection, although I do
11 have concerns about what the nature is of Mr. Treanor's expertise.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, let's not conflate different topics
13 in one --
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not trying to.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's not do that.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not trying to.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You didn't rise objecting to the qualification of
18 Mr. Treanor. You rose on that he is leading -- he is being led, rather,
19 and that the Prosecutor is mischaracterising.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Correct, and within the --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I'm dealing now with the objection that he is
22 being led.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I'm saying, isn't it so that as an expert, it
25 doesn't matter if he is an expert on politics, history, or what, but he
1 sits here as an expert and therefore is entitled to read facts, recollect
2 them, and then tender an opinion. And facts can be put to him. He
3 doesn't have to remember those facts. They just have to be put to him,
4 or he can read them from his report.
5 And if I may just finish my question to you about that issue, I'm
6 trying to look for that question again because it didn't look to me like
7 it was leading in its nature. The question was: "Mr. Treanor, do you
8 know of any other example where the FRY leadership were aware or made
9 reference to the strategic objectives of the Bosnian Serbs?" That was
10 the question. How does it lead? That's at page 96, line number --
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm with you now. And the strict evidentiary
12 response to that would be that you are correct if he's viewed as an
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Supposing he was not, how is it leading? The
15 answer to that question is, Yes, I know, or, no, I don't know.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: You're absolutely right.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: So is it leading?
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's not, and I've made a mistake.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Then that objection is either
20 overruled -- is overruled, unless you are withdrawing it.
21 Madam, there is an objection that you are mischaracterising the
22 evidence, calling things strategic objectives when they are called
23 strategic goals. Do you have any response?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I don't see the distinction.
25 Strategic goal is a strategic objective. An objective is a goal.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I share what you say, but I do not sit here as an
2 expert in English. May I suggest that we stick to the letter of the
3 documents that we've been tendering, because it makes it very difficult
4 for me to rule. I also don't know the difference between the two. I
5 must go and consult my dictionary.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: I will, too, Your Honour.
7 If I haven't already, can we have Rule 65 ter number 06669.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: 06669.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
10 Q. If I could direct your attention to page 127 of the English and
11 page 137 of the B/C/S. First of all, Mr. Treanor, what is this document?
12 A. This document is shorthand notes of the 1st session of the
13 Council for Coordination of Points of View on State Policy, held on
14 11 August 1992
15 Q. And who was in attendance at that meeting?
16 A. This meeting was attended by the --
17 Q. The types of people --
18 A. -- the top leaders of the FRY; namely, Dobrica Cosic, who is the
19 president; Milan Panic, who was the new prime minister; Slobodan
20 Milosevic, who we referred to; Momir Bulatovic, we've also referred to;
21 Vladislav Jovanovic, who was the foreign minister; Pavle Bulatovic, who
22 was the minister of internal affairs of the FRY; General Zivota Panic,
23 the Chief of Staff; and Milo Djukanovic, the president of the government
24 or the prime minister of the Republic of Montenegro; and Radoman Bozovic,
25 who was the president or prime minister of the government of the
1 Government of the Republic of Serbia
2 this council. And there were other people there as well who were not
4 Q. And what discussion was had at this meeting about the strategic
6 A. There's a brief discussion of the strategic goals on page 127 in
7 the English. It's just a very short passage, so I can read it. Zivota
8 Panic is speaking. He's describing the issue of the use of force in the
9 territory of Yugoslavia
10 "9. The possibility to control the Serbian side in
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the wrong choice of strategic aims on the part of
12 the Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina; namely, the takeover of Sarajevo
13 They constantly insist on taking over Sarajevo."
14 Slobodan Milosevic then says: "Haven't they given it up?"
15 And Zivota Panic replies: "Mr. President, they have not given it
16 up. They had not given it up when we last spoke here with
17 Prime Minister Panic. They were not so categorical, but they commented
18 all the time that Sarajevo
19 Now, I must remark that the phrase "strategic aims" is the same
20 phrase that has been translated in previous documents as "strategic
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be -- the pages
24 that we have referred to, be admitted into evidence, please.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: A quick point of clarification. I take it that
1 document was obtained in the same fashion as the previous document?
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would have to check on that, but I presume so.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: That was a document that was forwarded to you by
4 the government.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm saying I will check on that --
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- but it's my understanding.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me get clear, is it your understanding that it
9 is also a transcript of an audiotape which audiotape you are not in
10 possession of?
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: I don't think that's the query, Your Honour.
12 It's simply the source of the document.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: It --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Explain yourself.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. Is it a transcript of an audiotape, and is
16 it a document -- and, in addition, is it a document that you received
17 from the Serbian government?
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you don't have an audio --
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. And you don't have the audio.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You will check that, ma'am.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
23 THE WITNESS: If I can, Your Honour, at the bottom of the second
24 page in the English, it states who took the shorthand notes. As I stated
25 at the beginning of my testimony about this document, these are shorthand
1 notes of the meeting.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: We understand that they are shorthand notes. That
3 is not the problem that we are faced with at the moment.
4 THE WITNESS: Well, there would be no recording.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's an assumption that I'm not comfortable
6 with at this moment.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I've been in meetings where there are people
9 taking shorthand, and it's also been recorded.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam, you will find out.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. So --
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can that document, the pages that I took
14 Mr. Treanor to, can they be admitted into evidence, please?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. The pages of 06669 that were referred
16 to are admitted into evidence. May they please be given an exhibit
18 THE REGISTRAR: Those pages would be Exhibit P194, Your Honours.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: And I note the time, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Sutherland.
21 Mr. Treanor, we are not done with you. You are supposed to come
22 back at Monday, the 10th, at 9.00 in the morning, in this same court.
23 Once again you are warned about not having to communicate with anybody
24 about this case until you are excused from coming -- as a witness. Thank
25 you very much.
1 Court adjourned to Monday, the 10th, Courtroom II, at 9.00 in the
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.
4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of
5 November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.