Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1037

 1                           Thursday, 6 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

11     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

13             Could we have the appearances for the day, starting with the

14     Prosecution.

15             MR. SAXON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon, my

16     colleague Ann Sutherland, and Carmela Javier.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             And for the Defence?

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  For the Defence is

20     Daniela Tasic, Chad Mair, Milos Androvic, Eaoadin O'Brien, Novak Lukic,

21     lead counsel, and I'm Gregor Guy-Smith.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             Mr. Treanor, I know you will know this, but it's still the duty

24     of the Bench to remind you that you are still bound by the declaration

25     you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole

Page 1038

 1     truth, and nothing else but the truth.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I understand, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 4             Madam Sutherland.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                           WITNESS:  PATRICK TREANOR [Resumed]

 7                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]

 8        Q.   Mr. Treanor, I wish to take you back to something you said at the

 9     very end of the court session on Tuesday, which appears at page 1035 of

10     the transcript.  There you were discussing the situation in Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina.  You were describing the results of the November 1990

12     elections and the number of seats won in the two houses of the

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly by the different groups.  You stated on lines

14     4 to 9 and, I will quote:

15             "The Party for Democratic Action, which was basically a Muslim

16     party, won 80-odd seats, and the HDZ in Croatia won a smaller number of

17     seats.  Each of those parties won a number of seats in the Assembly

18     roughly proportionate to the representation of the respective

19     nationalities in the population of BH."

20             Did you mean the HDZ in Croatia or in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21        A.   No, I meant the HDZ in BH.  Perhaps this might be a good time for

22     me to correct a couple of other errors I made in my testimony yesterday.

23         MR. GUY-SMITH:  Once again, I believe that if there are errors to be

24     corrected, it is appropriate that counsel appoint the witness to where he

25     needs to go, as opposed to the witness independently determining what

Page 1039

 1     needs to be done.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ms. Sutherland.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, I agree.

 4        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what were the issues that concern you in relation to

 5     your testimony on Tuesday?

 6        A.   Well, two points, perhaps minor, but just so the record is

 7     straight --

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me once again.  I believe that we may be

 9     having a transfer of function here.  As I understand it, Ms. Sutherland

10     is the attorney; Mr. Treanor is the witness.  If Ms. Sutherland,

11     representing the Prosecution, has concerns about the state of her record,

12     then she should direct the witness to how to correct that.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, Mr. Treanor should be given the

15     opportunity to correct anything on the record that he, on reflection, has

16     a problem with that he told you.  We are here for the establishment of

17     the truth, not for the fact that he may have said something incorrectly

18     on Tuesday and is now not allowed to correct himself.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  There's a problem that's being posed here, Your

20     Honour, which is, as I understand it, there is to be no communication as

21     between the attorney and the witness during their testimony.  Obviously,

22     what that would mean, then, is that the attorney, after reviewing the

23     record, has made a determination that there are some difficulties, either

24     mistakes, errors, or something incorrect.  Obviously that's not the state

25     of play that we have here, which would cause me some great concern, and I

Page 1040

 1     think I'll address that a little bit later.

 2             But once again, if the attorney has some concerns - and I have

 3     absolutely no difficulty with the assertion made that we're here to seek

 4     the truth and find out what happened - if the attorney believes that

 5     those difficulties exist, then they should lead or direct the witness to

 6     where those difficulties are.  Clearly, something else has happened here,

 7     and to the extent that something else has happened here, I can address

 8     that right now, but that's really a secondary issue to the -- my initial

 9     objection.  The secondary issue being that apparently there's been

10     conversation as between the witness and the representative of the OTP,

11     which, as I understand it, should not have occurred.  He said he

12     understood the admonition.  Apparently the admonition has been violated.

13     The extent to which it's been violated, I do not know, and the extent to

14     which we would need to -- or the Chamber may wish to inquire as to the

15     nature, manner, of discussion, time of discussion, whether or not the

16     discussion dealt with -- well, I won't define what it could have dealt

17     with, as a matter of fact, and perhaps it would be more appropriate for

18     the witness to leave the room at this point if that's the case.  But in

19     any event --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have made a very serious accusation against

21     the professional conduct of your opposite number.  May I find out from

22     you what the basis for that allegation is --

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- from what has transpired now.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Absolutely.  We began the proceedings today with

Page 1041

 1     the following -- with the following -- with the following, which is a

 2     correction concerning the issue of where seats were won.  Excuse me.

 3     Thereafter, Mr. Treanor says:  "Perhaps this might be a good time for me

 4     to correct other errors I made in my testimony," at which point I direct

 5     my objection in the way that I did.  And Ms. Sutherland -- excuse me.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, what happened now we are all aware

 7     of.  Just tell us --

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Based upon what happened now, I was -- I am led

 9     to believe that there's been contact between the OTP and the witness.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How do you infer that?

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  By virtue of the -- of the question asked and the

12     answers given.  Now, perhaps I'm wrong.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  So perhaps the best -- the best starting point as

15     opposed to the strength of my objection, in the event that I am wrong

16     because if I am wrong I certainly don't wish to offend, is to make a

17     determination, if the Chamber feels it appropriate, as to whether or not

18     there's been any communication as between the two parties.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The problem is I don't understand the logic of

20     your argument, but before I express how I interpret this, I would like

21     Madam Sutherland to give an answer, if she has any.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I have not laid eyes on

23     Mr. Treanor, much less spoken to him, since he began his testimony on

24     Monday.  Apart from seeing him in the courtroom, I have not spoken to

25     Mr. Treanor.

Page 1042

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Then I stand corrected, and I apologise to

 2     Ms. Sutherland personally, and I apologise to the Court for raising the

 3     issue.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  I want to make -- give you an analysis

 5     because I've been asking you for the basis of your allegation, and I want

 6     to tell you -- to give you the basis for my view that Madam Sutherland is

 7     right.

 8             Madam Sutherland stood up here and asked a question that was

 9     supposed to correct about the issue of the seats won.  So far as she had

10     re-read or read the transcript, that's what she felt needed correction.

11     She hadn't -- she didn't ask the next question.  But the witness then

12     says, Maybe this will be an opportunity for me to correct other mistakes

13     that I made in my past testimony.  He says this from his own recollection

14     of what he said on Friday and what he recalls as being the true state of

15     affairs in relation to what he said, and that is why Madam Sutherland --

16     when you object, Madam Sutherland says, Yes, Witness, what is the thing

17     you have concerns about, because she doesn't know.  And why doesn't she

18     know?  Because she has not talked to him.

19             Now, I don't see how, from that interaction, anybody can infer

20     that there had been a communication between the two.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, the mind is -- the mind is a curious thing,

22     and that's where my mind went.  I obviously was mistaken.  I recognise

23     the mistake that I've made and, as I said before and as I will say again,

24     to the extent that I engage in an illogical thought process, which on

25     occasion I think occurs with me and certainly with others, but certainly

Page 1043

 1     with me, I apologise both to the Chamber and to Ms. Sutherland because I

 2     certainly don't want to be in a position where illogic, as opposed to

 3     logic, takes hold.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland, the objection is overruled.

 7     You're allowed to ask the witness to tell us what it is he wants to

 8     correct.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Mr. Treanor.

11        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  Two issues in relation to events in early

12     1991.

13             First of all, the meeting known as the Convention for Yugoslavia

14     that took place on the 3rd of January in Belgrade took place in the

15     building of the federal assembly and not in the other building that I may

16     have mentioned.

17             Another matter relates to the sequence of decisions relating to

18     the referendums in Croatia.  I think I misstated one date at least.  The

19     sequence is as follows:  On the 21st of February, 1991, the Croatian

20     Sabor passed the resolution on the procedure for the dissolution of

21     Yugoslavia that I mentioned and also passed an amendment to the

22     constitutional law which, in effect, invalidated federal law within

23     Croatia.  One week later, on the 28th of February, 1992, the Serbian

24     National Council in Croatia passed its resolution, in effect, denying the

25     validity of Croatian law in the Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina.

Page 1044

 1     Then on the 1st of April, 1992, came the decision that we saw, briefly at

 2     least, relating to the scheduling of a referendum in the Serbian

 3     Autonomous District, and it was then only on the 25th of April, 1992,

 4     that the Croatian Sabor passed its resolution on holding a referendum in

 5     the whole of Croatia.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.  I'm unclear as to the second date.

 7     Do I understand that to be that of the 25th of April, which is reflected

 8     on page 8, line 1, as a date correction?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes, that is the correct date.  I'm going by

10     memory.  Again, I think, yesterday I may have said the 25th of March.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I was at a loss as to what was being

12     corrected because it's a very long paragraph, and if the date just

13     relates to the date of the 25th of April, thank you so much,

14     Mr. Guy-Smith.

15             THE WITNESS:  I may have misstated the date of the 21st of

16     February as well.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

18             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:

20        Q.   Mr. Treanor, on the transcript before you, at line 8, you -- it

21     says:  "Only then on the 25th of April, 1992, the Croatian Sabor passed a

22     resolution ..."  Did you in fact mean --

23        A.   I'm sorry, 1991.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  May I have Rule 65 ter number 02232 on the

Page 1045

 1     screen, please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  0?

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  02232, pages 2 to 4 of the English and pages 4,

 4     6, and 7 of the B/C/S.

 5        Q.   Mr. Treanor, you finished testifying on Tuesday by telling the

 6     Chamber of the number of seats won for the two houses in the Bosnian

 7     Serb -- Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly.  Can we move now to February 1991.

 8     What was the Bosnian Serb view, re staying in one Yugoslavia at that

 9     time?

10        A.   At this time the Serbian democratic representatives in the new

11     Assembly in the Serbian Democratic Party in Bosnia-Herzegovina still

12     wished to remain within Yugoslavia.  At this time they were facing an

13     attempt by the SDA deputies in the Assembly to introduce a resolution on

14     the independence and sovereignty of BH.

15        Q.   And did they express this view publicly?

16        A.   Yes.  They issued a document entitled "The Views and Positions on

17     the Future of Bosnia and Herzegovina" which stated their position on this

18     issue.

19        Q.   When did Mr. Izetbegovic, the President of the SDA, reveal the

20     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina's position in relation to Yugoslavia?

21        A.   Well, in -- as I mentioned, in this document, the Serbian

22     Democratic Party set out its position.  The next month, in March 1991,

23     there was a meeting of the Presidents of the republics of the former

24     Yugoslavia to discuss the future of the country and Mr. Izetbegovic made

25     a certain statement after that meeting --

Page 1046

 1        Q.   Mr. Treanor, if you can just pause there --

 2        A.    -- which related to that issue.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may I seek to tender Rule 65 ter

 4     number 02232 into evidence.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter number 02232 is admitted into evidence.

 6     May it please be given an exhibit number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P175, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  May the Registrar call up 65 ter number 06784,

10     please.

11        Q.   Mr. Treanor, if you can continue.  You were -- you stated that

12     Mr. Izetbegovic issued a statement.

13        A.   Yes, after the --

14        Q.   This is a document --

15        A.   -- after the meeting in question on the 28th of March, 1991,

16     through the discussions among the Presidents of the republics in which

17     the issue of federation versus confederation figured, Mr. Izetbegovic

18     made a statement which is quoted or cited in the press.  I think it's at

19     the end of -- the very end of this document, which is in English, and I

20     will read it:

21             "Bosnia-Herzegovina President Alija Izetbegovic announced that

22     the republican parliament will soon adopt a declaration on the republic's

23     independence even against the will of the Serbian Democratic Party, the

24     second strongest party in the republican parliament.  Similar

25     declarations have already been adopted --" it says adapted, should be

Page 1047

 1     "adopted by the republics of Croatia, Macedonia, and Slovenia."

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, if I might.  The document itself, as I

 3     have it, reads:  "... would soon adopt a declaration of the republic's

 4     independence" as opposed to "on the republic's independence."

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's correct.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I could be directed to the paragraph that is

 7     being read because --

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's at the bottom of the page, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  At the bottom of the page we've got a paragraph

10     that is incomplete.  It's not completely visible.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Actually, I have --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It says:  "President Tudjman reiterated he still

13     does not rule out the need for a possible internationalisation of the

14     Yugoslav question, particularly due to the situation in the Knin region."

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I might be of some assistance, Your Honour.  It's

16     on the next page.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  It's not on the bottom of the page --

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  When I saw the half -- the unfull paragraph, I

19     didn't want to interrupt Mr. Treanor to ask the Registrar to take the

20     page down, thinking it was at the bottom of the page, but it's, in

21     fact, on page 2.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, but even right down, there was nothing on

23     it.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:

25        Q.   Mr. Treanor, you meant -- you were referring to the last

Page 1048

 1     paragraph of this document, were you not?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  May that document be admitted into evidence,

 6     Your Honour?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 8     please be given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P176, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             Yes, Madam Sutherland --

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might with regard to the last document, I

13     note that part of the document has been redacted.  I don't know the

14     purpose of that, and I am not ascribing anything to that, the redaction

15     itself.  However, it was my understanding that this was, I believe, a

16     public-source document that was from the witness's testimony, a document

17     regarding that was stated in the press.  If I'm correct in that manner, I

18     don't understand specifically why we have redactions here.  So if we just

19     have some clarification about that, I'd appreciate it.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  The document, as we can see

22     from -- if we go back to page 1 of the English translation, but you can

23     see on the B/C/S version, it was published in the Tanjug publication, but

24     the source of this document needs to be redacted because it's a Rule 70

25     source.  But you can see clearly from the document here that it was

Page 1049

 1     publicly -- that it was publicised and the date, the 28th of March, in

 2     Tanjug.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what is Tanjug?  Tanjug is a newspaper?

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   Mr. Treanor, can you ...

 6        A.   Tanjug was the official news service of the SFRY.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, if it was published like that, why must it be

 8     a Rule 70 document?  Who reads the Tanjug?

 9             THE WITNESS:  If that's a question for me, Your Honour, the

10     answer lies in the --

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:

12        Q.   Mr. Treanor, I think the question for you was:  Who reads Tanjug?

13        A.   Who reads Tanjug.  Okay, well, Tanjug is a news service, and they

14     distribute their product the way other news services do, AP, for

15     instance, to various media outlets both inside and outside the former

16     Yugoslavia, and the material was published in many newspapers and

17     broadcast over radio or television.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then why does it become a Rule 70 document?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, because we don't have that issue of

20     Tanjug, and we have relied on -- and that we were provided this document

21     by a Rule 70 source.  So we are simply using the Rule 70 source document

22     because we don't have the media article from 1991.  And the Rule 70

23     provider requests that certain information be redacted.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And that's your understanding, Mr. Guy-Smith, that

25     this is a Rule 70 document?

Page 1050

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's my understanding now.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You didn't know that before?

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Once again, I'm going to have to check my records

 4     now.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question was whether you knew this --

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Right.  I just have to double-check that first.

 7     Just a second.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you understand us to do in the meantime,

 9     hold on, wait for you?

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, no, no, please carry on.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Carry on and admit?

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, carry on and admit.  I understand what's

13     going on.  If I have any comments on it, they are certainly not fatal to

14     the admission of this particular exhibit, and I will respond to your

15     question once I have an answer.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

17             Yes, Madam Sutherland.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we have Rule 65 ter number 06697 on the

19     screen, please.

20        Q.   Mr. Treanor, how did the Bosnian Serbs respond to this statement

21     by Mr. Izetbegovic?

22        A.   Well, they maintained their position basically and issued another

23     document on the 10th of June, 1991.  When I say "they," again, I mean the

24     SDS deputies in the Assembly.

25        Q.   In that document, did they set forth their position in relation

Page 1051

 1     to resolving the Yugoslav crisis?

 2        A.   Yes, they did.

 3        Q.   And what was that?

 4        A.   Well, if I could draw the Court's attention to page 6 of the

 5     English translation.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Page 6 and 7 of the English, Your Honour, and 6

 7     and 7 of the B/C/S.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, we are at page 6 in the English.  I see it's

 9     5 in the B/C/S.

10             THE WITNESS:  At the top of page 6 in the English, I would draw

11     the Court's attention to the first paragraph, which I will read:

12             "In republics which have more than one state-founding nation,

13     citizens and nations may proceed to organise themselves into regions

14     based on economic, cultural, information-related, ethnic and/or other

15     interests.  Regions (cantons, districts, provinces, et cetera) may have

16     certain original powers in terms of legislation, justice and

17     administration, and powers to regulate public utility services, like in

18     some modern European countries."

19             Then I would draw the Court's attention to the fourth and fifth

20     paragraphs on that page:

21             "Bosnia and Herzegovina, as a peculiar state shared by --" that

22     really should read "of" - three equally sovereign nations and citizens

23     can choose a uniform solution for its status in the," there's a word

24     omitted, "joint state of Yugoslavia --"

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, are you giving the corrections as you pick

Page 1052

 1     them up from the Bosnian side also?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I've looked at the original on this, and the

 3     word "joint" is omitted there.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, it is important because Mr. Guy-Smith has to

 5     know those kind of corrections, like we agreed the other day.  Thank you

 6     very much.  You may proceed.

 7             THE WITNESS:  "... to choose a uniform solution for its status in

 8     the joint state of Yugoslavia if all three of its state-founding nations

 9     agree to it.  If there is no such agreement, the uniform solution,

10     regardless of its substance, cannot be foisted upon any one nation.

11     Instead, a solution must be sought which does not threaten any of the

12     nations, respecting their right to self-determination.  In this

13     respect --"

14             In the next paragraph:

15             "In this respect the Serbian people in BH are in a satisfactory

16     position because they now share one state with other parts of the Serbian

17     nation and can continue to exercise this historical and natural right.

18     There is no way, apart from brute force, in which the Serbian people in

19     BH can be separated from Yugoslavia and deprived of the protection of

20     their interests in the federal state."

21             So we see them restating the idea that they do not want to leave

22     Yugoslavia and suggesting an internal reorganisation of BH of the

23     formation of -- eventual possible formation of regions.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be tendered into

25     evidence.

Page 1053

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 2     please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P177, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   Mr. Treanor, there was reference in that document to regions.

 7     Can you briefly, and very briefly, describe for the Court what had

 8     happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina in relation to regionalization.

 9        A.   Yes.  In April a community of municipalities of Bosnian

10     Krajina -- I'm sorry, of -- yes, of Bosnian Krajina was formed which

11     brought together numerous municipalities in Western Bosnia that were

12     under the control of the SDS and other communities of municipalities were

13     also formed at that time in BH, in other regions.  I'm not sure how many.

14     The documentation is rather scanty.  This is similar to the process that

15     we saw in Croatia with the formation of communities of municipalities.

16        Q.   And did --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  And this is April of what year, sir?

18             THE WITNESS:  1991.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:

21        Q.   And in September, following, then, this position set forth by the

22     Serbs that we have just looked at, the Bosnian Serbs, in this document,

23     were there any other developments in relation to regionalization in

24     September 1991?

25        A.   Yes.  In September a number of Serbian autonomous districts were

Page 1054

 1     formed, again similar to the process that we saw in Croatia, where

 2     communities of municipalities were transformed into Serbian Autonomous

 3     Districts.  Again, the documentation is rather scanty on this, but, for

 4     instance, the communities of municipalities of Bosnian Krajina

 5     transformed itself into the Autonomous Region of Krajina and the statute

 6     for that region adopted on, I believe it was, the 15th of September,

 7     1991, the new Autonomous Region of Krajina is described as an inseparable

 8     part of Yugoslavia.

 9        Q.   By October, mid-October 1991, what was the situation in the

10     Assembly, in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   Well, by mid-October, that is, the 15th of October to be precise,

12     the very thing that the Serbian Democratic Party leaders had feared

13     happened, something that had been presaged by the statement by

14   Alija Izetbegovic that we saw earlier; namely, the non-SDS deputies in the

15     Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina voted a resolution on the sovereignty

16     and -- of Bosnia-Herzegovina and also basically disassociating itself

17     from the federation, withdrawing its representatives from federal organs

18     and proclaiming itself neutral in the -- as they put it, neutral between

19     Croatia and Serbia.  At this point the Court will remember that fighting

20     was going on in Croatia.

21             The SDS regarded this as a tremendous violation of the

22     constitutional order and indeed breaking of certain promises that had

23     been made to them by Alija Izetbegovic not to force such a resolution

24     through the Assembly.  They regarded those resolutions, as I say, a

25     virtual declaration of independence, which they were strongly opposed to.

Page 1055

 1        Q.   Sorry, how did they react, the Bosnian Serbs, the SDS?

 2        A.   Well, they had a lot of meetings, and they considered that the

 3     way forward, one result of the meetings was an announcement to the

 4     Serbian people, which they issued on the 16th of October, 1991.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we have Rule 65 ter number 06688, please.

 6     And that's page 1 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.

 7        Q.   Is this the document to which you've just referred?

 8        A.   Yes.  I'd direct the Court's attention to paragraph 1, which

 9     states:

10             "At night of October 14th to 15th 1991, the deputy groups of SDA

11     and HDZ, along with deputies of some opposition parties, applying

12     political terror, attempted coup d'etat, by passing anti-constitutional

13     decisions, with the objective to annul the tradition of joint life of

14     Serbs, Muslims, and Croats.  By this act, the constitutional

15     establishment has been endangered, which was based on sovereignty and

16     equality of constitutive nations, while the gate has been opened to

17     anarchy and chaos."

18             That is their view of the situation.  I would now call the

19     Court's attention to paragraphs 4 and 5, perhaps even beginning with

20     paragraph 3, which states:

21             "The Serbian Democratic Party and its representatives at all

22     levels of the government shall ensure the safety of Serbian people at all

23     times, at any cost, using all means available."

24             Paragraph 4 states:

25             "If the constitutional order is not preserved," and there's a

Page 1056

 1     word missing here, it should read "in the Assembly of BH, Serbian people

 2     shall establish legal hierarchy in compliance with the constitution of

 3     SFRY, ensure," the proper translation here would be "respect of federal

 4     constitution, federal laws, civil and national rights, and shall organise

 5     its own legislative, executive and judicial system, which every sovereign

 6     nation is entitled to."

 7             Further:

 8             "By complying with the federal constitution and law consistently,

 9     we are supporting," again a word left out, "the work of federal organs,

10     i.e., SFRY Presidency, Federal Assembly, and JNA, which is the only one

11     available to prevent forceful breaking apart of Yugoslavia," the "which"

12     referring to the JNA.

13             Paragraph 5:

14             "Sovereign nations shall decide on their destiny freely

15     expressing their own will."

16             "Serbian people shall remain in Federal state of Yugoslavia,

17     unless otherwise decided at a plebiscite.  Serbian people recognises the

18     right to other constitutive and sovereign nations to conduct their

19     plebiscites and decide on their future within Yugoslavia or out of it."

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be admitted,

21     please.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With regard to this document, this is -- we'd

23     object at this time with regard to, first of all, the translation issues

24     that arise because there are a number of them, and I believe it would be

25     appropriate to have an official translation of this document.

Page 1057

 1             Second of all, there are some questions with regard, and I

 2     understand the procedure, the guidelines that we have, but there are some

 3     questions with regard to the authenticity of this document and what this

 4     document actually does represent.  There is no date on this document --

 5     I'm sorry, there is a date on this document.  There's no stamp or

 6     signature on this document.  There is an indication that it has some

 7     relationship to the Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but

 8     beyond that, it's unclear.  So there may be some issues with regard to

 9     its authenticity and whether or not the witness's assertion of who the

10     document, in fact, can be attributed to is accurate.

11             There are two different issues.  One is the translation issue and

12     the other is the issue with regard to authenticity.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess the translation, I thought we agreed the

14     other day that it will go in under the strict understanding that it will

15     be replaced with a subsequent translation.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Fine, fine.  You see, my brain is not working as

17     precisely as it should today, Your Honour.  With regard to the second

18     objection, then, I'll submit it.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             Madam Sutherland, with respect to the second objection?

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, we would say it's a matter of

22     weight that you give the document, if it doesn't have a stamp or a

23     signature, that --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But is the witness not in a position to explain

25     the absence of those?

Page 1058

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  He may well be.

 2        Q.   Mr. Treanor, can you shed any light on the matter?

 3        A.   Well, as far as the providence of the document is concerned, I

 4     can state that it comes from the records of the Serbian Democratic Party

 5     which were seized by Bosnian authorities after the beginning of the war,

 6     if I can put it that way, in the spring of 1992.  There was a large

 7     volume of documents that were seized from the headquarters of the SDS in

 8     Sarajevo, and this was among them.  I also note that there is a fax line

 9     at the top of the page which indicates that this document was either

10     faxed from or -- I think that's the origin fax line, faxed from the

11     offices of the magazine Javnost in Sarajevo.  Javnost was the official

12     magazine of the Serbian Democratic Party.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But a faxed document cannot explain the absence of

14     a signature, could it?

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I have no explanation for that.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, thank you.  So that's the short answer:  You

17     have no explanation for that.

18             There you are.  We've been told the source of the document, sir.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I understood the Chamber will give it whatever

20     weight it deems appropriate at that time, and I'll remain -- I'll remain

21     with the position we took.  I understand.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may realise I hesitated a little bit.  I was

23     trying to remember the question I wanted to ask for clarification,

24     Mr. Treanor.  When you say it was seized from the SDS -- SDA -- SDS party

25     offices by the Bosnian authorities, which Bosnian authorities -- Bosnian

Page 1059

 1     authorities of which ethnic group or of which institution?  Because --

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I understand, Your Honour.  Well, I think

 3     colloquially we might refer to them as the Bosnian Muslim authorities --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought colloquially you called them Bosniaks.

 5             THE WITNESS:  They did not use that term in those days.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then we should clearly say Muslim, because they

 7     are Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats, and the -- the Bosnian Muslim

 8     authorities, those the ones you're referring to.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes, which were the -- remained in Sarajevo as the,

10     I believe, internationally recognised government.  I can also add, by the

11     way, that it appears to be a sort of press release which I don't know it

12     would require a signature.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's a press release.

14             THE WITNESS:  It appears to be of that nature.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

16             Yes, okay, it is so admitted then, and may it be given an exhibit

17     number and marked for identification.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P178, marked for

19     identification, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:

22        Q.   Mr. Treanor, did the SDS establish a legal hierarchy?

23        A.   Yes, they did, shortly after the declaration which we've seen.

24     "Shortly after" meaning eight days later on the 24th of October.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we have Rule 65 ter number 06600 on the

Page 1060

 1     screen, please, and page 1 of the English and also the B/C/S.

 2             THE WITNESS:  On the 24th of October, the Club of Deputies of the

 3     SDS, which was the body that had issued the previous declarations we've

 4     seen, founded its own assembly.  I would comment here that this shows the

 5     contrast between the political position of the SDS and the BH, as opposed

 6     to the political position between the SDS and Croatia.  As result of the

 7     elections in Croatia in 1990, the SDS had only won two, three, or four

 8     seats in the Croatian Sabor, the Croatian Assembly, whereas the SDS, as I

 9     mentioned, had 72 representatives and was represented in the government.

10     So their political base in Bosnia was much stronger.  Their political

11     importance within the general framework of that republic was much

12     greater --

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.  I do hate to interrupt.  If

14     Mr. Treanor could answer the question that was posed, as opposed to

15     dealing with something else, that would be appreciated.  I'm not trying

16     to limit his answers whatsoever, but there was a question posed.  On a

17     number of occasions, the witness has a tendency to give us information

18     which well be quite informative but it doesn't deal with the question

19     posed.  The question posed is very simply:  Did the SDS establish a legal

20     hierarchy?"  That's at line 8 on page 23.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, the question was -- yes, fair enough.

22             Madam Sutherland.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, Mr. Treanor did answer that

24     question and proceeded to tell you about the legal hierarchy that they

25     did establish.

Page 1061

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sure you will remember that last week the

 2     Bench kept on admonishing Mr. Treanor to please be brief, concise, and to

 3     the point, and answer the questions as we don't have much time.  Yes, for

 4     purpose of academics, it may very well be interesting to listen to you,

 5     Mr. Treanor, but we don't have that pleasure of that kind of -- that kind

 6     of pleasure, where we want answers to questions that are put only and

 7     nothing else.  You may proceed.

 8             Therefore, I'm saying to you, Madam Sutherland, control your

 9     witness.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Mr. Treanor, if I could direct your attention to article V of

12     that decision on the foundation of the Assembly of the Serbian People.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What was their position in relation to any enactments passed in

15     Bosnia by the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16        A.   Well, I think paragraph V will have something to say about that.

17     I have to point out that I do not have hard copies of the English

18     translations at this point.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That cannot be acceptable, Mr. Treanor.  We agreed

20     last week that you shall have the English version, you shall read from

21     the English version, and correct them to the extent that you pick up

22     mistakes.  You can't be telling me that you don't have the English

23     version before you.

24             THE WITNESS:  Well, I was under the firm impression, Your Honour,

25     that I was to be provided with the copies, and I was provided with copies

Page 1062

 1     on Tuesday.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, we provided a binder to VWS to pass

 3  on to Mr Treanor at the beginning of his testimony today. I assumed that he had the

 4     binder in front of him.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, let's find out where that binder is, because

 6     then it means Mr. Treanor is -- again, is not reading from the same page

 7     as we are reading.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Well, I can read the English on the screen.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I know you can.  But if you don't have it before

10     you, you can't.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, he's saying he can read it on the

12     screen.  On the e-court screen.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On the screen.  Why do you complain that you don't

14     have the English version?  It's right in front of you.

15             THE WITNESS:  Well, if I had it prior to this, I could have

16     compared it with the original.  We can work off the screen.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That was not the problem.  The problem was not a

18     question of comparison.  The problem was you just voluntarily told us

19     that you're not reading from the English version; you don't have the

20     English version.  Now, if it is right in front of you, please avail

21     yourself of it and read from it, sir.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I think things may go quicker if we

23     can locate the binder, and then Mr. Treanor can perhaps review the next

24     several exhibits in the next break so he can have that done.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's part of the running of your case, ma'am.

Page 1063

 1     You'll do that.  Carry on with the examination.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  In paragraph V we can say that it states:

 3             "The Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina shall

 4     recognise the validity of enactments passed by the Assembly of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina which are not contrary to the interests of the Serbian

 6     people."

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   Is this also in relation to -- were the Assembly of the Serbian

 9     People prepared to recognise federal regulations at that time?

10        A.   Yes, they were.

11        Q.   And was that only if they were consistent with the federal

12     regulations and didn't violate equal rights in the interests of the

13     Serbian people?

14        A.   They were prepared to recognise federal regulations, I think with

15     that reservation.

16        Q.   Can I direct your attention to Article VI of the document.

17        A.   "The Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina shall

18     recognise federal regulations and regulations of the republic, if they

19     are consistent with federal regulations and if they do not violate the

20     equal rights and interests of the Serbian people."

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be tendered into

22     evidence -- submitted into evidence.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's submitted into evidence.  May it please be

24     given an exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P179, Your Honours.

Page 1064

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 3        Q.   What was the position, the SDS position, with respect to

 4     remaining in a joint Yugoslavia in -- at that time?

 5        A.   Well, they maintained their position, pushing to remain in

 6     Yugoslavia, and, in fact, this session of the Assembly passed a

 7     resolution to that effect.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have Rule 65 ter number 06655 on the

 9     screen, please.  Page 3 of the English translation and page 1 and 2 of

10     the B/C/S.

11        Q.   Was this the decision you just referred to, Mr. Treanor?

12        A.   Yes, that's it.  I would draw the Court's attention to

13     paragraph 1, at the bottom of the page in the English.

14        Q.   And that is --

15        A.   If that could be blown up perhaps a little more.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  More importantly, if we can turn it over to the

17     next page.  We've seen the bottom of page 1.

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             THE WITNESS:  "Based on the right of self-determination, the

20     Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina ..."

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, there doesn't seem to be a second

22     page in this exhibit.  Your Honour, I'll move on.

23             THE WITNESS:  Perhaps it's the following exhibit, because this is

24     the same page in the gazette as the previous decision.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 1065

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It seems to be one of those technical days

 2     because we are not finding that the document that we presently have up on

 3     the screen in English comports with the document that we have as this

 4     particular 65 ter number, 6655 number.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you able to help, Madam Sutherland?

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I only have the ERN number for the

 7     document.  I don't know if that's going to help the Registry or not.  The

 8     ERN number that I want to be shown on the screen is SAO-1 -- sorry,

 9     ET-SAO1-0629 to 0630.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That would be, I think, page 3 of 3, then.  We

11     have that as a three-page document.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  In the English translation, yes, so do I.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So do I, but we're trying to ...

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm just trying to help out.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Does Registry have the other two pages?

17        Q.   Dr. Treanor -- Mr. Treanor, do you recall if that decision states

18     that the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina will remain in the state of

19     Yugoslavia together with Serbia, Montenegro, SAO Krajina, and the Serbian

20     autonomous region of Slovenia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and others who

21     expressed the same wish?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct, but it requires that that decision be

23     confirmed at a plebiscite of the Serbian people.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland, was your previous question

25     answered by the Registry?

Page 1066

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, it's not on the record,

 2     but Madam Registrar shook her head.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, she did.  I didn't see that.  I thought you

 4     were jumping the gun before she's able to answer you.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the ERN number provided by the

 6     Prosecutor corresponds to the document on the screens --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, ma'am.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  -- which is a three-page document.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, can I mark that document for

11     identification, please?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it be

13     marked for identification?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P180, marked for

15     identification, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, if I understand the state of this particular

19     document, we are, for purposes of the record, we are presently relying on

20     the witness's memory with regard to what the decision sets forth; is that

21     correct?

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  As I posed the question, Your Honour, yes.

23     However, Mr. Treanor has the B/C/S available to him on the screen.

24        Q.   So, Mr. Treanor, can you confirm that that's your recollection

25     through reviewing the document in B/C/S?

Page 1067

 1        A.   The next page would have to be shown on the screen.  Yes, that's

 2     correct, II specifying that the decision will come into effect when it

 3     had been confirmed by a plebiscite of the Serbian people.

 4        Q.   And the paragraph immediately above Roman numeral II is the text

 5     that was --

 6        A.   Yes, that comports with what you had suggested I said.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if Rule 65 ter number 06755 could

 8     be placed on the screen.

 9        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what happened as a result of the plebiscite?

10        A.   Well, a plebiscite was, in fact, held among the Serbian people in

11     BH on the 9th and 10th of November, and that plebiscite produced an

12     overwhelming majority in favour of the decision that we just saw.  As a

13     result of that the --

14        Q.   Did they issue a decision in relation to that?

15        A.   Yes.  At the next session of the Assembly of the Serbian People

16     in BH, the deputies passed a decision based on the results of that

17     plebiscite.

18        Q.   And is this the decision that you were referring to that's on the

19     screen now?

20        A.   Yes.  I would direct the Court's attention to paragraphs 1, 2,

21     and 3.

22        Q.   And basically was the territory that's mentioned in this decision

23     the same as the last decision that we just mentioned?

24        A.   Well, let me read that.  It says:

25              "Territories which are considered the territory of the federal

Page 1068

 1     state of Yugoslavia are territories of the municipalities, local

 2     communities and settlements in which on 9 and 10 November the plebiscite

 3     of Serbian and other peoples took place regarding their remaining in a

 4     joint Yugoslav state together with the Republic of Serbia, Republic of

 5     Montenegro, SAO, that is Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina, SAO

 6     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  And when more than 50 per cent of

 7     registered voters of Serbian nationality, as well as citizens, members of

 8     other nations and nationalities, declared to remain in the joint state of

 9     Yugoslavia."

10             Paragraph 2, which is a Roman II in the original, states:

11             "Parts of the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina from article 1

12     of this decision together with territories of the Republic of Serbia and

13     the Republic of Montenegro, SAO Krajina, and SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and

14     Western Srem, represent a core of a joint Yugoslav state."

15             Paragraph 3, which is Roman III:

16             "Municipalities, local communities, and inhabited places in which

17     the plebiscite was not carried out may express their will to remain in

18     the joint state as provided in Article 1 of this decision by means of a

19     plebiscite or a decision of the assembly of their municipality, local

20     community, or settlement, or they can organise in some other way."

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland, can I appeal to you to please

22     control your witness.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, I will, Your Honour.  I undertake to do

24     that.

25             May that document be tendered into evidence?

Page 1069

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Don't cut me short when I'm still talking, Madam

 2     Sutherland.  I’m going to make you understand why I'm concerned.  You ask a

 3     question, clearly asking the witness whether this was the territory was

 4     mentioned, and instead of mentioning it, he clearly says to you, Well,

 5     let me read it.  And then he goes and reads out a whole paragraph that is

 6     going to be tendered into evidence that we can read later, taking a lot

 7     of time, and burdening the record unnecessarily, and you just let him go.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I take your point and --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- it won't happen again.

11             Could that exhibit be tendered -- be admitted into evidence.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why should we, if we have read it already?  It's

13     been read into the record.  Why should we admit it?  So that we can read

14     it twice over?  Read it in the record and then read it again as an

15     exhibit.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm not sure that the dates and the title of the

17     document are actually in the record, Your Honour, and for those

18     reasons --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You didn't ask any questions about dates and

20     titles.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:

22        Q.   Mr. Treanor, when was this decision issued?

23        A.   This decision was issued on the 21st of November, 1991.

24        Q.   And what's the actual full name of the decision?

25        A.   The decision is entitled:  "Decision Regarding Territories of

Page 1070

 1     Municipalities, Local Communities, and Inhabited Places in BH which are

 2     Considered the Territory of the Federal state of Yugoslavia."

 3        Q.   And the number of the decision, please.

 4        A.   This is decision number 36-02/91.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, there is no need to admit this

 6     document --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   Mr. Treanor, as we bring the document up, if you could give the

10     Court your comment or opinion on the actual document without reading each

11     of the paragraphs into the record, that would be helpful.  We have a lot

12     of documents to get through and not a lot of time to do it.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we have Rule 65 ter number 06602 on the

14     screen, please.

15        Q.   Just before we look at that document, Mr. Treanor, can you -- are

16     you able to tell us what, if any, decisions were issued in relation to

17     the Serbian autonomous regions?  Very briefly.  Very briefly.

18        A.   The Assembly of the Serbian People also passed a decision

19     verifying, that is, ratifying perhaps, the Serbian autonomous regions

20     that had been formed, stating that they were to be part of BH as federal

21     units in Yugoslavia.

22        Q.   When the Bosnian authorities sought recognition, what did the

23     Bosnian Serbs do in relation to forming their own state?

24        A.   They proceeded to establish further organs of power at this time

25     and also to declare their intention to proceed to the formation of their

Page 1071

 1     own republic.

 2        Q.   When did they do this?

 3        A.   This would have been on the 21st of December, 1991.

 4        Q.   Did they issue a decision in this regard?

 5        A.   They issued a decision to proceed to the formation of a republic,

 6     and they also appointed a council of ministers.

 7        Q.   And did they do that in the document that you can see on the

 8     screen now?

 9        A.   No.  At the bottom of the screen, the beginning of one document,

10     it's there, and we should look at the next page as well.

11        Q.   That's in the B/C/S?

12        A.   Yes.  At the bottom of the B/C/S page we see --

13        Q.   And it has the number 21; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And is the second page of the English

16     translation on the screen -- in e-court?  Your Honour, I'm sorry, we

17     don't seem to have the English translation of that document.  May it be

18     marked for identification, please.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is marked for identification.  May it

20     please be admitted into evidence.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P181, marked for

22     identification, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And, Madam Sutherland, would that be a convenient

24     time?

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 1072

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 2             We'll take the break and come back at 4.00.  Court adjourned.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Sutherland.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, if I may correct the record, I

 7     advised you previously that I had been advised that the binder was with

 8     VWS to give to Mr. Treanor before the commencement of testimony today;

 9     however, that's not the case.  There was a miscommunication within the

10     Office of the Prosecutor and the binder remained there.  So I just wanted

11     to correct the record.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Sutherland.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:

14        Q.   Mr. Treanor, can I just remind you before we start that we have a

15     lot of documents to cover, and I would ask that you be as brief as

16     possible in answering my questions.

17        A.   Of course.

18        Q.   The last document that we looked at was in relation to the

19     decision to proceed to the formation of a Serbian republic.  Did this, in

20     fact, happen?

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if I could have Rule 65 ter number 06604 on

22     the screen, please, and page 3 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, on the 9th of January, 1992, the Serbian

24     Republic of BH was proclaimed by the Assembly of the Serbian People in

25     BH.

Page 1073

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 2        Q.   Can you tell the Court what the territorial delineation was going

 3     to be in relation to the new republic?

 4        A.   Briefly, it was to include the territories of the Serbian

 5     autonomous districts that had been formed in BH, as well as other

 6     territories which may wish to join.

 7        Q.   What date was this declaration?

 8        A.   I think I mentioned the 9th of January, 1992.

 9        Q.   Oh, sorry, you did, too.  What did the declaration state in

10     relation to the federal state of Yugoslavia?  If I can direct your

11     attention to Roman numeral II.

12        A.   I'm sorry, this document is not in the binder I've been given.

13     It stated, quite briefly, that the republic is part of the federal state

14     of Yugoslavia.

15        Q.   How long after -- you mentioned yesterday the RSK had proclaimed

16     the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  What was the difference in time period

17     between the RSK and the Bosnian Serbs in Serbia -- Bosnia?

18        A.   I guess it would have been 19 days, from the 21st of December,

19     1991, to the 9th of January, 1992.

20        Q.   Now, at that time was a commission set up called the Badinter

21     Commission, and if so, what was their role in the events in Yugoslavia in

22     early 1992, if you could briefly tell the Court.

23        A.   The so-called Badinter Commission was established around this

24     time in the closing months of 1991 by the European Community to rule --

25     I'm sorry, to offer recommendations, I think, as to how to proceed with

Page 1074

 1     international legal issues connected with the events in the former

 2     Yugoslavia, to examine the issue, for instance, the independence of

 3     individual republics and matters of that nature.  I think I referred to

 4     it earlier when the RSK asked for recognition based on the guidelines

 5     that had been issued by the EC.

 6             And at this particular time in January, the Badinter Commission

 7     came out with some decisions, one of which basically said that the SRBiH

 8     had not yet filled the conditions for recognition and suggested that --

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, at this point I'm not clear as to

10     whether or not the witness is now interpreting the legal decision or not,

11     or whether he's giving his historical view of what an international legal

12     commission proclaimed.  I don't know whether or not this particular

13     testimony is outside the expertise of this particular witness.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it's not my view that that's what

16     the witness -- the witness isn't interpreting a legal issue.  He's simply

17     telling you what the Badinter Commission was set up for, what their role

18     was.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I'm specifically referring to page 37,

20     lines 15 and 16, in which the witness states -- I'm sorry, it starts at

21     14:  "And at this particular time in January, the Badinter Commission

22     came out with some decisions, one of which basically said that the SRB BH

23     had not yet filled the conditions for recognition and suggested that ..."

24     at which point I rose.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that an interpretation of legal conclusion?

Page 1075

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That was my concern at the time.  For him to say

 2     that it basically says something, it may well require the interpretation

 3     of a legal opinion.  Now, it's something that we can pursue perhaps when

 4     I stand to speak with the witness, but at this point in time, I viewed

 5     that in terms of the use of the term "basically" as an opinion with

 6     regard to how he interprets a legal decision.

 7             If we were having a discussion about, for example, let's say, the

 8     Tadic decision, and I suggested that it basically discussed or created a

 9     theory of liability that had yet to be dealt with in international law, I

10     would be, as an attorney, interpreting a legal decision, and it's for

11     that reason that I rise.  If the Chamber is not in accordance, so be it.

12     My concern was we were beginning to get into an area of him interpreting

13     legal decisions.  I don't believe he's being offered as an expert in that

14     regard.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, my response to that is he's simply

16     stating facts, and he's telling you what the Badinter Commission called

17     for.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you understand the objection?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I do.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection says he doesn't say the Badinter

21     Commission which stated A, B, C, D.  He says "basically."  He says the

22     following, which suggests an interpretation of the report by the witness

23     rather than telling us exactly what the report says.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, but the objection, as I understood

25     it, was that he was interpreting a legal -- a legal --

Page 1076

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Document.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And by using the word "basically," he's giving us

 4     his interpretation of it.  That's the nub of the objection.  And he's not

 5     saying which literally says A, B, C, D, or which says A, B, C, D, but he

 6     says which "basically" says A, B, C, D.  In other words, he's giving us a

 7     summary of what that says.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Point taken, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Mr. Treanor, if you can give the Court the objective facts, and

10     then you can provide the Court with your opinion on those facts.

11        A.   I didn't realise "basically" had a legal meaning.  Not being a

12     lawyer, I should have said "in brief," I suppose.  I don't have the

13     document in front of me, but it did refer at the end the possibility of

14     holding a referendum in BH.

15        Q.   Did the Bosnian Serbs issue any conclusions in relation to a

16     common state for the Serbian people?

17        A.   Yes, they did.

18        Q.   When did they do this?

19        A.   That would have been on the 26th of January, 1992.

20        Q.   Did the Bosnian Serb republic adopt a constitution?

21        A.   Yes.  On the 28th of February, 1992.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we have 65 ter number 06656 on the screen,

23     please.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, what should we do with 06644?

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  May that be admitted into evidence.

Page 1077

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  It's so admitted.  May it be

 2     given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Just a clarification with the counsel, the

 4     document on the screen is 06604, as I heard counsel.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, I misspoke, Your Honour.  It's 06604.

 6     Thank you.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  So 65 ter number 06604 will be Exhibit P182, Your

 8     Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we can have Rule 65 ter number 06656 on

11     the screen, please.  Page 2 of the English and page 1 of the B/C/S,

12     please.

13        Q.   Mr. Treanor, is this the constitution that you were referring to

14     that was adopted on the 28th of February, 1992?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   And what organs did it allow to be set up?

17        A.   This constitution established as the principal organs of power in

18     the republic an assembly, a government, a presidency, and of course

19     courts.

20        Q.   And I direct your attention to Article 3 of the constitution.

21     What -- is reference made there to the fact that the republic is part of

22     the federal state of Yugoslavia?

23        A.   Yes.  The article quite simply states that:  "The republic is

24     part of the federal state of Yugoslavia."

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender that document.

Page 1078

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This document is admitted into evidence.  Will be

 2     given an exhibit number.  I'll say that again after I switch on my mic.

 3     The document is admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an

 4     exhibit number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P183, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   Was any other legislation adopted at this time by the Bosnian

 9     Serb republic?

10        A.   Yes.  At this same session the Assembly adopted several pieces of

11     legislation relating to the functioning of the new republic.  It adopted

12     a constitutional law which contained transitional provisions until the

13     provisions of the constitution could be carried out, for instance, who

14     would act as the Assembly until the elections for the Assembly were held.

15     It also adopted other laws, such as the law on government, the law on

16     ministries, a law on internal affairs, and a law on national defence.

17        Q.   And who was to carry out the functions, or what provisions were

18     made -- sorry.  What provisions were made in relation to a president, for

19     example?

20        A.   Well, under the terms of the constitutional law, the powers of

21     the president were to be exercised by the two Serbian members of the

22     Presidency of the SRBiH until such time as a president was elected under

23     the constitution.

24        Q.   Who were those two members?

25        A.   Those two members were Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic.

Page 1079

 1        Q.   When was the -- you mentioned the law on defence and the law on

 2     internal affairs.  When were they to become operational?  When was the

 3     law to be enacted?

 4        A.   Well, they were to become operational eight days after their

 5     publication in the Official Gazette of the Serbian Republic of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina, but then an event which took place on the 23rd of

 7     March, 1991, so they would have become operational on the 31st of March,

 8     1991.

 9        Q.   You said that the constitution was proclaimed on the 27th of

10     February, 1992, and that the -- as a result of the constitution, the

11     Serbian republic would remain as part of Yugoslavia.  What, in fact, were

12     the prospects of them remaining within Yugoslavia at this time?

13        A.   I believe the date of the constitution was the 28th of February.

14     The prospects for them actually remaining in Yugoslavia at this time were

15     not very good.

16        Q.   What was the reason for that?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have Rule 65 ter number 06668 on the

18     screen, please.

19             THE WITNESS:  The reason for that was that, although it appeared

20     to be a simple matter to remain within the SFRY, in fact the -- all the

21     republics of the SFRY had -- or many of the republics had been recognised

22     as independent by that time, and Serbia and Montenegro were in the

23     process of forming, if I can call it that, a new state consisting of

24     Serbia and Montenegro.  And the idea of the Bosnian -- the Bosnian Serb

25     areas or the Croatian Serb areas remaining or being part of that state

Page 1080

 1     would have caused tremendous international complications for the new

 2     state in the view of the Belgrade leaders; therefore, they wished to

 3     proceed with the formation of that state, including only the republics of

 4     Serbia and Montenegro and not any portions of neighbouring states -- or

 5     of -- at that time Croatia was recognised as a state and Bosnia, which

 6     was in the course of becoming recognised as a state.

 7        Q.   At the beginning of March, was this discussed within the

 8     Presidency of the SFRY?

 9        A.   Yes.  There was a meeting at the Presidency of the SFRY at the

10     beginning of March, on the 2nd of March to be precise.  It was attended

11     by members of the Presidency and other officials of the SFRY, including

12     the acting secretary of national defence, General Blagoje Adzic, and

13     numerous Croatian and Bosnian Serb leaders including Radovan Karadzic,

14     Momcilo Krajisnik, and Goran Hadzic, and Milan Martic, for instance.

15     They discussed issues relating to the future of the Serbs in Croatia and

16     Bosnia, in view of the fact that they would not be able to be part of the

17     new state that was being formed.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I would ask that we go to page 35 of the English

19     translation and page 20 of the B/C/S, please.

20        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what did Radovan Karadzic have to say at that

21     meeting in relation to the Republic of Bosnia -- the Bosnian Serb

22     republic joining Yugoslavia or joining Serbia?

23        A.   Well, he spoke in favour of a reconsideration of that decision by

24     the Belgrade leaders, especially in view of the fact that the plebiscite

25     of the Serbian people had been carried out and the republic had -- the

Page 1081

 1     Serbian Republic of BH had passed a constitution saying it was part of

 2     Yugoslavia.  It was made clear that that decision would stand, and he

 3     recognised the reasons for that decision and accepted it.

 4             In this passage we can see him saying:

 5             "We decided not to demand joining Serbia.  We also do not demand

 6     staying in Yugoslavia at all costs.  We can see what we have been

 7     criticised for, and we can see what has created troubles for Serbia and

 8     Montenegro."

 9        Q.   What did Mr. Adzic say about the matter, or General Adzic?

10        A.   General Adzic didn't express a direct view on the political issue

11     but did explain to the Croatian and Bosnian Serbs the military

12     arrangements that were being made for the Serbian areas in those

13     republics.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go to page 50 of the English

15     translation - I'm not sure what page it is in e-court - and page 38 of

16     the B/C/S.

17        Q.   Did Mr. Adzic say there would be -- what, if anything, did he say

18     in relation to options available in relation to the JNA?

19        A.   Well, he said on page 51 --

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, I'm a bit -- and I do apologise for

21     interrupting.  I'm a bit confused because the document that I see on the

22     screen in English does not refer to Mr. Adzic in English, and I don't

23     know what it's doing in the original.  I think there's a -- there's some

24     kind of synchronicity problem at the moment.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That was my concern as well.  I said I wanted

Page 1082

 1     page 50 because the proper pages weren't coming up in e-court.  I'm

 2     informed that it's the second translation attachment to the e-court.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The second translation attachment?

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The second translation document that's attached

 5     to the e-court system, Your Honour.  It's all foreign to me, I'm sorry.

 6     I'm simply --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you want to call that document on to the

 8     screen?

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  It's page 97.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So that second document, the attachment goes to

11     page --

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's actually page 50 of the translation of the

13     document, but it appears on page 97 of e-court of the second translated

14     document that's attached to that Rule 65 ter number within e-court, I'm

15     advised.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Would you please go back one page to page 96.

18     If you could blow up around the middle of the page, please, where it's

19     Adzic -- thank you.

20        Q.   Now, my question, Mr. Treanor, was:  Did Adzic talk about

21     different options for the JNA?

22        A.   Yes, he did, but I think that's at a later point in his

23     presentations in this meeting.  It's not on this page.  On this page he

24     refers to the stationing of the JNA in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 1083

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can now go to the following page, down the

 2     bottom of page 97 and the top of page 98, please.

 3        Q.   Is that the passage that you just referred to, that you were

 4     talking about?  Down the bottom, it starts with the word "Therefore ..."

 5     It's the very last word on that page.  The paragraph starts:  "I believe

 6     that a decision will have to be made ..."

 7        A.   Oh, yes, that one.

 8        Q.   And the word "Therefore," and then if we go to the next page.

 9        A.   Yes.  "Therefore, there can be two things.  Either the army will

10     stay there ..."

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we have the next page on e-court, please.

12             THE WITNESS:  "There" being BH.

13             "... until a political situation is found or we will go to war in

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina and Yugoslavia.  If we have no other choice, we

15     will go to a civil war.  Then let it be Lebanon.  We have no other choice

16     because the others will make us do so."

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Okay.  Your Honour, may that document be

18     admitted into evidence, please.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland, you have indicated that this

20     document seems to have very many pages.  Are you tendering the pages that

21     you've referred to, or are you tendering the entire document?

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I would seek to tender the whole document, Your

23     Honour, because it will be referred to with other witnesses in the trial,

24     during the trial.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I refer you to our guidelines, ma'am.  I guess

Page 1084

 1     you've got a copy of those.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do we say about tendering voluminous

 4     documents?

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It says that relevant -- this is paragraph 24,

 6     Your Honour, of your ruling.  Sir, we can seek to have the portions that

 7     Mr. Treanor has referred to into evidence.  I am at this stage unable to

 8     give you the e-court numbers, so perhaps if we can mark that document for

 9     identification until I can come back to you with the page numbers.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But what is wrong with admitting the pages that we

11     have referred to, and if other witnesses want to use some other pages, we

12     can admit their pages in, rather than put in a minimum of 97 pages, it

13     looks like two-thirds of which we might not read.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I agree, Your Honour.  That's what I just said.

15     But I said that I couldn't give you the page numbers at the moment

16     because the first cite I took you to, page 35, did not come back -- page

17     35 of the translation didn't appear on the screen, and so I want to give

18     you the exact e-court page numbers.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, I'm sorry, I hadn't understood where you were

20     going.

21                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So if we could mark ...

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland, remember, you referred us to two

24     translations.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 1085

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think the second translation you called it as an

 2     attachment in e-court.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I wonder if you can clarify which of each of those

 5     documents you want admitted, which pages of each of those documents.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That's right, Your Honour, and at this stage,

 7     I'm not able to tell you that because I have certain numbers written down

 8     on my index which aren't correlating to the --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To the e-court pages.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- to the e-court pages.  So I would ask we mark

11     that exhibit for identification, and then I can come back to you with the

12     actual page numbers of that big document that I would like to have

13     tendered.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We'll do so.  Then the

15     document --

16             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, if I'm might.  I am being told by

18     people who read a language that I don't -- that these two pages are --

19     don't comport with each other, that they're not synced up.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Sutherland --

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mister?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, I wanted to say "Mr. Treanor."  I'm so

23     sorry to you and to you, too, ma'am.

24             May I ask you to fall back to the extra job that I asked you to

25     exercise for us, that is, to check whether the translation we have on the

Page 1086

 1     screen does comport with the original we have on the screen.  What's your

 2     comment on that?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Well, it's -- it doesn't appear to be --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It doesn't appear to be --

 5             THE WITNESS:  -- the two pages don't appear to contain the same

 6     passage.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But do you think the one is a translation of the

 8     other, or do you feel it's not?

 9             THE WITNESS:  They appear to be different pages.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if I may assist, it looks --

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think if I understand it, at least from the

12     information I'm getting, that whatever the page is in the original and

13     whatever it says, we do not have in the English.  The English page that

14     is presently -- that was presently up is not the same as the --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It doesn't tell us what is on the --

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Right.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, that's what I understood.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if I may assist, I think that the

19     page that was on the B/C/S page was the very start of Adzic's speaking,

20     and so the B/C/S would need to go over one or two pages in order to

21     catch -- to be the equivalent text of what was shown in the English

22     translation.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then that's why -- I guess that's why

24     Mr. Guy-Smith stood up.  Then make sure that we've got corresponding

25     pages before we decide on admission.

Page 1087

 1             THE WITNESS:  That passage would be on page 41 of the original.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see we're at page 42 of the original.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If the B/C/S can be taken back one page.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's it.  Are we now -- are the two languages on

 5     the same page?

 6             THE WITNESS:  The two -- that passage, the translation of each

 7     page does not correspond in the two languages.  They overlap.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Yes, because I was going to say I don't see

 9     the name "Carrington" in the B/C/S, which is slap-bang in the middle of

10     the English.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I took Mr. Treanor to two passages

12     at the beginning of Adzic's speech, which was on that other page, and

13     then the one that was on page 51 and 52 of the English transcript, so

14     those are the two portions that I would seek to tender.

15        Q.   Mr. Treanor, can you --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought we had another point we were tendering,

17     and I was trying to make sense what you're saying.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm trying to -- we can see now that

19     Carrington's name is coming up in the middle of the B/C/S page.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  But what I would like someone to do, Mr. Treanor

22     or the Registry or case manager, to inform us as to what page in the

23     B/C/S and in the English the two passages that I referred Mr. Treanor to,

24     and that's starting -- Adzic's speech:  "I think that we should not

25     mention the Yugoslav People's Army in today's announcement."  That's the

Page 1088

 1     first quote I took him to.  And then the second one, starting on page 51

 2     of the English translation, I don't know where in the B/C/S:

 3             "Therefore, there can be two things.  Either the army will stay

 4     there until a political situation is found or we will go to war in Bosnia

 5     and Herzegovina and Yugoslavia."

 6             Those are the two passages and a few more lines down that I took

 7     Mr. Treanor to.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, are you able to find the two

 9     pages on which those two quotations appear?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, I could try and locate the e-court

11     pages, which I will come back to you in due course.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, fine.  When you have located them, can you

13     upload -- what do you say in your language, you upload or -- okay.  They

14     are admitted into evidence, then, and can they be given an exhibit number

15     for now.  You wanted this exhibit to be MFIed?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, because I was unable to give

17     you the correct pages, I'm sorry.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  All right.  Then give it an exhibit number, marked

19     for identification.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  So that will be Exhibit P184, marked for

21     identification, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:

24        Q.   Mr. Treanor, Mr. Adzic mentioned that the army would stay there,

25     i.e., in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  As they were to stay there, was the JNA

Page 1089

 1     giving any direct assistance to the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have Rule 65 ter number 06800 on the

 4     screen.

 5             Your Honour, this was a document that Mr. Harmon used in his

 6     opening statement and the Prosecution was to provide the Trial Chamber

 7     with an English translation of the legend to the document.  However, I've

 8     been advised that the legend is not connected in e-court under this

 9     exhibit number.  It's, in fact, another number which I will call up in a

10     moment.  But you will see the English translation, then, of the document

11     that was referred to, and we will get to the legend in one moment.

12        Q.   What was the quantity of weapons that -- so we're talking --

13     we're talking March 1992.  What was the quantity of weapons that the JNA

14     provided to the Serbs in Bosnia?

15        A.   The answer to that question is provided on page 6 of the

16     translation.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can go to page 6 of the translation and

18     page - I'll try my luck - 8 of the B/C/S.

19        Q.   What was the number of weapons?

20        A.   In the middle of the English translation page, we can see under

21     point (f) the statement that the JNA has distributed 51.900 weapons, 75

22     per cent; in the SDS, 17.298.

23        Q.   Mr. Treanor, can you tell the Court who this document is from,

24     his position, and the date of the document.

25        A.   That document is a report by General Kukanjac, who was the

Page 1090

 1     commander of the 2nd Military District of the JNA headquartered in

 2     Sarajevo, and the date is the 20th of March, 1992.

 3        Q.   If I can take you to paragraph 5, "Volunteer Forces in the 2nd

 4     Military District," does it give a definition in this document as to who

 5     volunteers are?

 6        A.   Well, it says who they aren't.  This is a discussion of volunteer

 7     forces attached to the 2nd Military District.

 8        Q.   And who are they not?

 9        A.   Under point (c), under 5, it states that:

10             "No volunteers are potential conscripts for regular units," or

11     war units, "of the 2nd Military District and only a small number are from

12     the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In other words, the

13     volunteer units are not part of the JNA and the TO establishment

14     structure."

15        Q.   Now, if we can --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, my own clarification.  We're saying there

17     are only a small number from the TO of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and then

18     in the same breath, at the end we say that they are not part of the TO

19     establishment structure.  Can we give the name of that last TO?  Which TO

20     is this?

21             THE WITNESS:  The TO of Bosnia-Herzegovina, saying that they're

22     not part of the TO, only a small number are from the TO.  So these are

23     volunteer forces in addition to the TO and the JNA in BH.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Again, just for my clarity, can you just give me a

25     very single-worded answer?  Of which army is the TO at the end?

Page 1091

 1             THE WITNESS:  In -- the TO in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Or is that

 2     a more general question, what is the TO a part of?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, of which army.  I'm asking you --

 4             THE WITNESS:  Well, the --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- this TO of which these volunteers are not a

 6     part of, so the TO of which army?

 7             THE WITNESS:  The TO is part of the Armed Forces of the SFRY.  It

 8     is not part of the JNA.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fair enough.  Maybe I should have said, "of which

10     country?"  So this last TO refers to the TO of the SFRY.

11             THE WITNESS:  Right, which is organised on a republic level, so

12     in this case we're talking about BH.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now you confused me.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, I'm confused.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You see, you can't say it's of the SFRY and then

18     say of the BH in the same breath.

19             THE WITNESS:  The BH was still part of the SFRY at this time.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Therefore, the TO of the BH cannot be -- the TO of

21     the BH is TO of the SFRY, and therefore these two TOs that you're

22     referring to are the same TO.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes, yes.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you can say they are part of this but not part

25     of this.  It doesn't make sense, that statement, then, because it is

Page 1092

 1     saying they are -- they compose a small number from the TO of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina, which you say at that time was part of the SFRY; therefore,

 3     it is a misnomer to call them the TO of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They are

 4     actually the TO of the SFRY.  But in the same breath you're saying, "In

 5     other words, the volunteer units --" I'm not saying you say, but the

 6     statement says:

 7             "In other words, the volunteer units are not part of the JNA and

 8     the TO establishment structure."

 9             Now, at that time there is only one TO establishment structure of

10     the SFRY.  They are part of it, constituting a small number, but they are

11     not part of it.  Can you explain that discrepancy -- apparent

12     discrepancy?

13             THE WITNESS:  The TO is part of the -- is a very large

14     organisation that covered the whole of the SFRY, and it was considered to

15     be part of the Armed Forces of the SFRY.  The establishment structure of

16     the TO is based on the republics, so that is the first level of command

17     below the Presidency of the SFRY, if you will.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

19             THE WITNESS:  Each republic had its own TO that, under certain

20     circumstances, in a war, came under the command of the SFRY Presidency.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

22             THE WITNESS:  The BH was still part of the SFRY --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.

24             THE WITNESS:  -- and had its own TO --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.  But then that TO in the BH is part

Page 1093

 1     of the TO establishment of the SFRY.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But now to say some people, small number, who are

 4     members of the TO of Bosnia-Herzegovina but not members of the TO

 5     establishment structure is a contradiction logically, if I follow what

 6     you are explaining logically.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Well, in discussing the volunteer units, saying

 8     that only a small number of the volunteers are from the TO, so they're

 9     not in the TO.  Why some of them should be from the TO at all, I do not

10     know.  But I understand this document to say that most of the volunteers

11     are not part of the TO.

12             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation} I'm not sure I understand.  Maybe

13     I will say this in French.  It seems to me that what this paragraph

14     states is that the volunteers come originally from the TO, the

15     Territorial Defence, but are not part of the Territorial Defence; is that

16     right?  But originally they come from the Territorial Defence.

17             THE WITNESS:  Well, it says only a small number are from the TO,

18     so some of them were from the TO.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're talking about a small number only.  And if

20     I understand what Judge Picard is saying, would this mean that they have

21     resigned from the TO to make themselves volunteers, and that's why they

22     are not part of -- they are no longer part of the TO establishment

23     structure?

24             THE WITNESS:  As I stated earlier, I do not know why they should

25     be part -- how that took place.  I do not know how that took place.

Page 1094

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We can't take the matter any

 2     further.

 3             You may proceed, ma'am.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  If we can have Rule 65 ter

 5     number for the attachment --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's dispose of 06800, please, first.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would seek to tender that

 8     into evidence.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it be given an

10     exhibit number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P185, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And the index or the legend that's attached to

14     that document is part of Rule 65 ter number 05698, if that could be

15     brought onto the screen.

16             Your Honour, that was the English -- you can see the English

17     translation, and that's the document that was requested during the

18     opening.

19        Q.   Mr. Treanor, that's -- do you agree that that is the legend

20     that's attached to the Kukanjac document, that's referred to in the

21     Kukanjac document?

22        A.   Sorry, which legend?

23        Q.   The document that's on the screen at the moment, do you agree

24     that that's the legend that's referred to in the Kukanjac document?

25        A.   I'm not sure which legend is being referred to.

Page 1095

 1        Q.   In relation to paragraph 5, volunteer units in the second

 2     military district zone are indicated on the map and in the legend in

 3     great detail, and then it lists the number of weapons that are provided,

 4     and that is 69.198, and then in paragraph (f) you gave a breakdown of

 5     those weapons distributed by the JNA and the SDS.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But, madam --

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   And I'm asking you, you've reviewed these documents --

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My problem is that this document that you've

11     referred to as a legend does not give us information about weapons but

12     about men.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  That lists the number of men

14     per municipality of volunteers, and it says that the JNA has

15     distributed -- I'm sorry, if I can take Mr. Treanor to it, rather than

16     myself.

17        Q.   Paragraph (f) of this document, Mr. Treanor, gives the breakdown

18     of the weapons distributed.  And you mentioned that the JNA had

19     distributed 51.900 weapons, which was 75 per cent, and the SDS had

20     distributed 17.298.  If you add those two figures together, do you get

21     the total amount -- the total number of volunteers --

22        A.   Yes, which is --

23        Q.   -- volunteer forces, which is referred to in paragraph 5?

24        A.   69.198, yes, which is a number that also appears in

25     subparagraph (b), under 5 --

Page 1096

 1        Q.   And so --

 2        A.   -- the enlisted men number, 69.198.

 3        Q.   And so this legend that's attached to this document lists the

 4     municipality and the number of men, with a grand total of 69.198, which

 5     corresponds to the number of weapons that have been distributed in

 6     paragraph (f).

 7        A.   Yes, the two numbers correspond, yes.

 8        Q.   Am I right?  Okay.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may this document be admitted into

10     evidence?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's so admitted.  May it be given an exhibit

12     number, please.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P186, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   Mr. Treanor, after this date, i.e., the 27th of May, 1992, did

17     the negotiations still continue?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we could have Rule 65 ter number 06612 on

19     the screen, please.

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes, negotiations were continuing after the 27th of

21     March, 1992.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:

23        Q.   Are you aware of National Security Council?

24        A.   There was a Bosnian Serb National Security Council, yes.

25        Q.   When was that set up?

Page 1097

 1        A.   On the 27th of March, 1992, by the Bosnian Serb Assembly.

 2        Q.   Yes, I'm sorry, I misspoke a moment ago when I said that after

 3     this date and the document being the 20th, I said the 27th.  But the

 4     National Security Council was set up on the 27th of March.  What occurred

 5     in Bosnia at the beginning of April 1992.

 6        A.   Well, a lot happened in Bosnia at the beginning of April 1992.

 7        Q.   In particular in relation to --

 8        A.   A very important development was the international recognition of

 9     the independence of BH on the 6th and 7th of April, 1992.

10        Q.   And is that --

11        A.   This would have been the recognition by the EC states and the

12     United States.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did it take place on the 1st of April or on the

14     6th and 7th of April?

15             THE WITNESS:  The 6th and 7th.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, the question was -- where is the question

17     now?  I thought the question was:  What happened on the 1st of April?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, beginning of April, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The beginning of April.  I'm so sorry, thank you

20     very much.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:

22        Q.   Did the EC members issue a written declaration?

23        A.   Yes.  Written statements were issued on the 6th of April.

24        Q.   And is this the document that we see on the screen before you?

25        A.   No, this is not the EC declaration.

Page 1098

 1        Q.   Oh, I'm sorry.  What is this document that's in front of us in

 2     relation to the declaration on recognition?

 3        A.   This is a media report about a session of the Bosnian Serb

 4     Assembly, the media in question being Belgrade Radio.

 5        Q.   And does it state what the EC and member states decided in

 6     relation to Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Direct us to --

 8             THE WITNESS:  It doesn't appear to.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I really apologise.

10     We'll leave that document.

11        Q.   What impact did the declaration that we --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, you're withdrawing the document?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I am, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   What impact did the declaration of independence of Bosnia have on

17     the development of the Republic of the Serbian People in

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19        A.   The international recognition of the independence of BH prompted

20     the Bosnian Serb Assembly to declare the independence of the Serbian

21     Republic of BH.

22        Q.   When did that occur?

23        A.   That occurred at a session that took place in -- on the night of

24     the 6th of April and continued into the early morning, I believe, of the

25     7th of April, 1992.  That was indicated in the previous document.

Page 1099

 1        Q.   Did the Bosnian Serbs -- did the Bosnian Serb Assembly conduct an

 2     Assembly session on the 12th of May, 1992?

 3        A.   Yes, there was a session on that date.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we have Rule 65 ter number 06277, please.

 5        Q.   What was the main aim of this session and its importance to the

 6     Bosnian Serbs?

 7        A.   The importance of this session was that it dealt with certain

 8     matters of the restructuring of the Bosnian Serb republic.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we can --

10        Q.   What session number was it?

11        A.   This is the 16th session.  It was the first session after the

12     session that proclaimed independence early in April.

13        Q.   So what were the certain matters on restructuring that occurred

14     at this session?

15        A.   Well, the two principal matters were a restructuring of the organ

16     of the Presidency and the formation of an army.

17        Q.   Did the Assembly adopt any goals in relation to the Serbian

18     people?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go to page 67 of the English

21     translation.  It's on page -- I'm sorry, it's on page 13, not page 67.

22     It's on page 13 of the English translation, and it's on page 7 of the

23     B/C/S.

24        Q.   Can you please tell the Court what were those goals that were

25     announced at the 16th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly.

Page 1100

 1        A.   Well, I can do that by reading, perhaps, the -- just the first

 2     paragraph that has been marked on the copy I've been given, which is the

 3     first full paragraph in the middle of the page, "The Serbian side ..."

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just paraphrase it, sir.  If it's going to be

 5     tendered, then I don't think you need to read all of that long paragraph.

 6             THE WITNESS:  This paragraph states that -- it states that the

 7     goals which Radovan Karadzic is speaking about in this speech were --

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   What was the first goal?  What was the first goal that was

10     announced?

11        A.   He says that the first goal is separation from the other two

12     national communities.

13        Q.   Meaning?  Who's he referring to there?

14        A.   The Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Croats.

15        Q.   What was the -- how many goals were there?  How many goals were

16     announced?

17        A.   There were six goals altogether.

18        Q.   So that's the first one.  What was the second one?

19        A.   The second goal - this is going to the next paragraph on that

20     page - the next strategic goal, it seems to me he says, is a corridor

21     between Semberija and Krajina.

22        Q.   What was the importance of that corridor?

23        A.   The area being referred to is along the southern bank of the

24     river Sava, which was the northern boundary of Bosnia, and that was the

25     only land route that connected the eastern part of the Bosnian Serb

Page 1101

 1     republic with the western part of the republic, and it was therefore

 2     important as the land route which connected Serbia with many portions of

 3     the RSK in Croatia.

 4        Q.   What was the third goal?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, my finger doesn't work.

 7             Does it connect Serbia, or does it connect the east and the

 8     western parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the north?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Both, Your Honour.  The eastern part of the Serbian

10     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina bordered on Serbia, therefore linking the

11     eastern part of the Serbian republic with the western part, also linked

12     Serbia as well as the eastern part of the Serbian Republic of

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina with the larger part of the Serbian Republic of

14     Krajina, that is, the Serbian republic in Croatia, because it does not

15     have any land border with Serbia or the FRY.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, sir.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:

18        Q.   And does Dr. Karadzic state in relation to the second goal that

19     it is of greatest interest "because we cannot have unity of Serbian

20     states if we do not have that corridor"?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What is the third strategic goal that was announced?

23        A.   The third goal was in the next paragraph, the following

24     paragraph.  He states:

25             "The third strategic goal is to establish a corridor in the Drina

Page 1102

 1     Valley, that is, elimination of the Drina as a border between two

 2     worlds."

 3        Q.   What is he referring to there?  What are the two worlds?

 4        A.   Well, I'm not precisely sure what two worlds he's referring to.

 5     The Drina, for much of its course, was the border between Serbia and BH,

 6     in this case portions of the Serbian Republic of BH.  A corridor in the

 7     Drina Valley would have linked the north-eastern part of the Serbian

 8     Republic of BH with its south-eastern part in Herzegovina.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, excuse me, if we could have as the page in

11     Serbian, and I'll use the ERN number because that's the way that it's

12     being referred to me, it's 0214-9447, that would have the two -- that

13     would be the Serbian original page, and I was just informed that that

14     puts the two of them together.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

16             THE WITNESS:  It also would have made portions of the border

17     along the Drina accessible, the corridor would have made it accessible to

18     the Bosnian Serb republic and given them communication in those

19     particular areas with Serbia.  That entire area, that is, the Drina

20     Valley, was not under the control of the Serbian Republic of BH at this

21     time.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:

23        Q.   What was the fourth goal?

24        A.   The fourth strategic goal is discussed in the following

25     paragraph.  I'll just read the first sentence again:

Page 1103

 1             "The fourth strategic goal is establishment of the border on the

 2     Una and Neretva rivers."

 3        Q.   What's the importance of this goal?

 4        A.   This goal specifies two other portions of the external border of

 5     the Serbian Republic of BH; namely, the Una river, which is in the

 6     north-western part of BH.  Part of BH is on the western bank of the Una,

 7     which would be the left bank.  At this point -- in this goal, he appears

 8     to be claiming only the right bank, the eastern bank.  The Una ran north

 9     through BH into the Sava river, which, as I mentioned earlier, forms the

10     northern border of BH, or in this case, if the corridor were formed, in

11     large part, the northern border of the Serbian Republic of BH.

12             The Neretva is in the south.  It flows through Mostar down to the

13     sea.  The establishment of a border on the Neretva, and I think the

14     reference is again to the eastern bank of the Neretva which, in this

15     case, it runs in the opposite direction, would be the left bank, as being

16     claimed, would have given the Bosnian Serb republic control of the whole

17     of the eastern Herzegovina.  A large part of that territory was not under

18     its control at this point.

19        Q.   What was the fifth strategic goal that was announced?

20        A.   The fifth goal was dealt with in the following paragraph, which

21     states:

22             "The fifth strategic goal is division of the city of Sarajevo

23     into Serbian and Muslim parts and implementation of an effective state

24     government in each of these two constituent states."

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go over to the next page on the

Page 1104

 1     English translation, please.

 2        Q.   What was stated by Karadzic as being the importance of that goal?

 3        A.   Well, he states further in that paragraph that:

 4             "The battle in and for Sarajevo is seen strategically and

 5     tactically as a decisive importance because it does not allow the

 6     establishment of even the illusion of a state.  Alija does not have a

 7     state while we have part of Sarajevo."

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, I don't know whether or not the

 9     witness is reading now in English or from Serbian, because what I'm

10     reading is different.  I have it -- "because it does not allow even for

11     the illusion," and the existence of the word "establishment" is not

12     there.

13             THE WITNESS:  I'm reading what is in front of me in hard copy,

14     "because it does not allow --"

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We're looking at the screen.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I withdraw what I just said.  I've got two

17     screens going right now, and I've made the mistake.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Apparently we have -- apparently what seems to be

20     the case is that we have three separate translations for the same

21     document that have been supplied to us, so that's why that occurred.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  This is the final CLSS translation that we're

23     looking at at the moment.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Great.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:

Page 1105

 1        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what was the sixth and final goal that was announced

 2     on the 12th of May?

 3        A.   The sixth goal is dealt with in the following paragraph, and I'll

 4     just read the first sentence:

 5             "The sixth strategic goal is the access of the Serbian Republic

 6     of Bosnia-Herzegovina to the sea."

 7        Q.   And what's the importance of that goal?

 8        A.   Well, I think many states consider having access to the sea

 9     important, and the only access that BH had to the sea is a very small

10     portion of the Dalmatian coast, and it was not under the control of the

11     Serbian Republic of BH at this time.

12        Q.   Now, those goals were announced by -- strategic goals were

13     announced by Dr. Karadzic.  Did anyone else from the Bosnian Serb

14     leadership give their opinion as to which of the goals were the most

15     important?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And who was that?

18        A.   Well, I think several people probably addressed various goals,

19     but Momcilo Krajisnik certainly indicated what he thought was the most

20     important goal.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can go to page 49 of the English

22     translation and page -- it's on page 37 of the B/C/S.  I don't know what

23     page number in e-court, I'm sorry.

24        Q.   What does --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While you're looking for the page number in

Page 1106

 1     e-court, what do you think of the convenience?  Maybe that will give you

 2     more time to find the page number?

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if it's possible, if we could just

 4     deal with Mr. Krajisnik.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 7        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what does Mr. Krajisnik say is the most important

 8     goal or goals?

 9        A.   I would direct the Court's attention to the bottom of the page,

10     the bottom of this page, just before the first underlined portion.

11     Mr. Krajisnik says:

12              "As for the goals, I would just like to offer an explanation,

13     since I have also taken part in adopting these goals.  We must make a

14     choice regarding one thing.  The first goal is the most important in

15     relation to all other goals.  All other goals are subitems of the first."

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour, that would be a

17     convenient moment.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We will take a break and

19     come back at a quarter to 6.00.  Court adjourned.

20                           --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you proceed, Madam Sutherland, I'm advised

23     that the pages that you are going to search for have been identified.

24     Can we just give it -- the admission regularised.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the pages that are tendered from

Page 1107

 1     P184, which is currently marked for identification are the following:

 2     The English e-court pages are page 1, page 96, page 97, page 98, and

 3     page 81, out of a total of 145 pages.  And the B/C/S pages in e-court are

 4     page 1, page 20, page 38, page 41, page 84, and page 86 out of a total of

 5     155 pages, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

 7             Madam Sutherland.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could Rule 65 ter

 9     number 09235 be brought up on the screen.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, Madam Sutherland, I think you

11     have -- before you do that, could we finalise 65 ter 06277, Madam

12     Sutherland?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I haven't finished with that

14     document as yet.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you're calling another one?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  I want to intersperse this one.  I'm

17     sorry.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:

20        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what will be coming up on the screen is a map, and I

21     would like you to take the Court very quickly through strategic goals

22     numbers 2 to 5 -- 2 to 6 in order for them to have a better understanding

23     of the evidence that you just gave before the break in relation to the

24     strategic goals, if you can.

25             So, with respect to strategic goal number 2, the corridor between

Page 1108

 1     Semberija and Krajina, can you explain briefly to the Judges, in relation

 2     to the map, that strategic goal.

 3        A.   Yes.  Immediately above the word "corridor" the Court can see the

 4     red line, which is the northern boundary of BH, and it follows the course

 5     of the river Sava and, for part of its distance, the river Una, and the

 6     corridor would have been along the southern bank of the river connecting

 7     the two parts.  They are labeled Semberija and Bosnia and Krajina.  Part

 8     of what is in the middle of BH was not under the control of the Serbian

 9     Republic of BH at this time, so they only controlled a very thin strip

10     along the course of that border, the river in the north.

11        Q.   The third strategic goal refers to the establishment of a

12     corridor in the Drina Valley.  Can you take the Court to --

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   -- that goal?

15        A.   The eastern border of BH is indicated by a red line again, and

16     the blue line is the course of the river Drina.  As the Court can see, it

17     follows the border for much of its distance and departs from the border

18     at a certain point and continues further south.  Actually, okay, it comes

19     from the south.  And again, the whole distance of this river was not

20     under the control of the Serbian Republic of BH at this time, and gaining

21     such control would have enabled -- facilitated a connection between

22     Semberija in the north and the southern portion of the republic, the

23     south-eastern portion, which is around the word "Neretva" down there,

24     which is Herzegovina.

25        Q.   And so to the left -- left bank of the Drina is

Page 1109

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina and to the right bank of the Drina is what?

 2        A.   Is Serbia, along the portion of the river that is also marked

 3     red.

 4        Q.   The fourth strategic goal is to establish a border on the Una

 5     river and the Neretva river.  Can you explain to the Court using the map

 6     that goal?

 7        A.   Yes.  The course of the Neretva river is marked in blue, looping

 8     around the word "Neretva" and, as the Court can see, it flows into the

 9     sea in Croatia.  Moving the border to that line, at least the western

10     part of the loop, would have given the Serbian Republic of BH control of

11     the whole of Eastern Herzegovina, and if they took the whole course --

12     the whole eastern bank, it would have, of course, given them access to

13     the sea.

14        Q.   The fifth strategic goal is the division of Sarajevo into Serbian

15     and Muslim parts.  I think that's obvious where Sarajevo --

16        A.   Sarajevo is in the middle of the map.  In relation to access to

17     the sea, other -- there were other possibilities for gaining access to

18     the sea.

19        Q.   And that is the sixth strategic goal, access to the sea?

20        A.   Without taking the eastern bank of the Drina within Croatia, if

21     they were able to gain control of the part of BH which -- of BH which

22     goes to the sea, which is indicated by the little loop just below the

23     words "Access to the sea," that was BH's access to the sea, the small

24     port there.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 1110

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  May the map be admitted into evidence, Your

 2     Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This map is admitted into evidence.  May it please

 4     be given an exhibit number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P187, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   Returning now to Rule 65 ter number 06277, the 16th session of

 9     the Bosnian Serb Assembly, Mr. Treanor, did -- who was appointed as --

10     you said that the 16th session passed laws in relation to the forming of

11     the army, of the Bosnian Serb army.  Who was appointed commander of that

12     army?

13        A.   The military commander that was appointed on this occasion was

14     General Ratko Mladic.

15        Q.   Now, at this session did he talk -- did he make reference to any

16     of the goals?

17        A.   He made some references which appear to relate to the goals.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could turn to e-court number 35 of the

19     English translation and page 28 of the B/C/S.

20        Q.   What did Mr. -- General Mladic say at that session in relation to

21     the goals, as you -- as you understand it?

22        A.   Well, right in --

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  -- as framed and as the question has been asked

Page 1111

 1     thus far, it calls for a level of speculation as to what is in the mind

 2     of the author, if we're in a situation where we're talking about directly

 3     somebody saying something, so there's not this interpretive aspect of

 4     what somebody is saying.  That's a different matter.  So if I could

 5     perhaps know where we're focused here with regard to this relatively

 6     lengthy conversation, I'll know whether or not my concern is that of

 7     speculation or not, which is he said, He appears to, which is distinct

 8     from with regard the goals he stated that, or he responded in a fashion.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, my next question -- Mr. Treanor's

10     answer was he made some references which appear to relate to the goals,

11     and my next question was:  "What did he say in relation to the goals as

12     you understand it," meaning that you say that he appeared to make some

13     expression in relation to the goals.  That's what I was wanting

14     Mr. Treanor to answer.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, he's now being asked to perform a function

16     of a fact-finder.  I think this is a matter which the question is asked,

17     especially in light of the answer given, and this is outside of --

18     outside of the purview of his expertise, and it also calls for

19     speculation.  If the document here is one of those situations where it

20     speaks for itself, the Chamber can read it as easily as anyone else and

21     can make a determination of what they believe its import to be, whatever

22     that import may be.  His interpretation does not assist in this area.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me understand what the objection is all about.

24     You rose up, Mr. Guy-Smith, after the question, "What did General Mladic

25     say at that session in relation to the goals, as you understand it?"

Page 1112

 1     There's no "appears to relate" in that sentence.  The "appears to relate"

 2     is in former sentence which you didn't object in the previous sentence.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I should have jumped up quicker, Your Honour.  If

 4     you take the two in conjunction, and "as you understand it," what he

 5     understands it to be is, apart from being vague and speculative, is

 6     irrelevant, what he understands it to be.  Mr. -- General Mladic made a

 7     statement, whatever that statement may be.  That statement is apparently

 8     open to interpretation.  Now, this witness is not offered as a

 9     psychologist for purposes of what's in General Mladic's head.  He's not

10     offered for purposes of rendering opinion as to what the internal

11     thinkings of General Mladic.  He's offered to speak about objective facts

12     and objective events that account for information of a historical and

13     political nature which allows you to make a determination of their

14     import.  But what he understands this to mean, among other things, apart

15     from being speculative, outside the purview of his expertise, is

16     irrelevant.

17             I could tell you what I understand it to mean, and if I were to

18     testify about what I understood it to mean, I think you would rightfully

19     say, Well, thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith, but what your

20     understanding is is not particularly relevant.  You can make an argument

21     as to what the perception you have of a fact, but that's a different

22     issue.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you have anything to say?  If you don't, I am

24     ready to rule.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I don't agree, but you can make a

Page 1113

 1     ruling, or I can approach you --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you don't have anything to say, then the

 3     objection is upheld.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   Mr. Treanor, did Mr. Mladic -- General Mladic say in that

 6     session -- did he advise the session whether he had met with the

 7     leadership in Belgrade at that meeting?  Was anything -- was anything

 8     discussed in relation to that?

 9        A.   Yes, he made reference to a meeting in Belgrade.

10        Q.   And what did he say in relation to that?  If I can --

11        A.   In the middle of the page we're looking at -- I realise it's very

12     hard with this passage to say exactly where it is.  But in the line

13     beginning with "Many of you ..."

14             "Many of you have helped me.  I already said this a few days ago.

15     I kept on repeating certain things.  I said this in Nevesinje before the

16     top leadership of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and before

17     an even more select political leadership in Belgrade."

18        Q.   If I can take you to the sentence beginning "Please ..." which is

19     just before that sentence.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Does he mention anywhere about -- about goals being set for

22     themselves?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   What does he say?

25        A.   He says:  "Please, let us not set before ourselves goals that

Page 1114

 1     will bring us down.  Let us set before ourselves the goals we can

 2     achieve."

 3        Q.   And then he goes on to say the sentence that you just quoted a

 4     moment ago.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   That many people have helped him and that he discussed certain

 7     things --

 8        A.   Yes, that sentence.

 9        Q.   And he kept on repeating certain things, and he said this:  "In

10     Nevesinje before the top leadership of the Serbian Republic of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina and before an even more select political leadership in

12     Belgrade."

13        A.   That's the sentence.

14        Q.   Did he also make reference in that session in relation to keeping

15     the work of what they were doing secret?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   What did he say in relation to that?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go to page 38 of the English and

19     page 28, I think, of the B/C/S.

20        Q.   What does General Mladic say about the work that they're doing?

21        A.   Well, just above the middle of the page in English, in the line

22     beginning with the words "About when to keep mum ..."

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, it may be on page 29 of the B/C/S.

24        Q.   I apologise for interrupting, Mr. Treanor.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can go to the sentence and blow it up,

Page 1115

 1     starting "And please, ..."

 2             THE WITNESS:  That's in a couple lines above, beginning with:

 3             "Whatever else there is, to keep it short, and please, let us not

 4     only put our minds into what we are doing, but let us also think

 5     thoroughly about it and let us be cautious about when to keep mum.  No,

 6     the thing that we are doing needs to be guarded as our deepest secret."

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   When -- do you know when these strategic goals were actually

 9     published?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry, I normally have not risen for this

12     reason, but this is a level of cherry-picking that I think potentially

13     offends.  If read, the language before and after, that particular

14     statement, I think, puts it into that proper context, and I think it

15     would be appropriate at this time rather than a later point in time for

16     me to say, Well, you read sentence number 3 and 4, you should read

17     sentence number 1 and 2 and 5 and 6.  If this particular passage, or

18     these particular two sentences are read in the context of its entirety,

19     then the Chamber is in a position to take a -- an intelligent and

20     objective analysis of what's being discussed there, if that can even be

21     done.  But certainly just picking out those two particular sentences and

22     then tying them in to whatever the Prosecution theory is is not

23     appropriate and certainly does not achieve what we're supposed to be

24     doing here, which is to see that the truth emerges.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland.

Page 1116

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I've simply taken Mr. Treanor to

 2     two passages, one about the goals and one about the fact that he wants to

 3     keep the work that they're doing secret.  I have simply asked

 4     Mr. Treanor, does he know --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We know what you have done, madam.  What is your

 6     response to the objection?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm saying it's unfounded.  I'm directing

 8     Mr. Treanor to a completely different question.  I'm asking him when the

 9     goals were published.  I have moved away from --

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I am objecting -- I am objecting to your

11     moving away because you are, in my respectful submission,

12     mischaracterising what is being said there, and the Prosecution is

13     engaged in cherry-picking with regard to the statement made by

14     General Mladic.  I mean, if I go up a sentence before, then the passage

15     would read as follows:

16             "I believe that at this very moment it is very important to place

17     at the head of the Serbian people both --"

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. --

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry, I don't want to read the whole thing,

20     but --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't want you to read anything.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I may, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Very sorry.  You are going to have an opportunity

24     to cross-examine, are you?

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I am, and for the most part I've left it alone.

Page 1117

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But, Mr. Guy-Smith, are you now wanting the

 2     Prosecution to direct its examination according to how you want it?  If

 3     you are going to cross-examine, obviously when you do do that, you will

 4     come to this page and quote everything that you need to have quoted to

 5     put what was said in the examination-in-chief in context.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Absolutely.  And for the most part this is

 7     something I have left alone.  I find this one to be, in my estimation, of

 8     particular moment because, as we know, although this is an adversarial

 9     process under two specific notions; one is the doctrine of completeness,

10     and the second is the duty of the prosecutor is not merely to convict but

11     also to see that justice is done.  When cherry-picking that presentation

12     of the evidence, in my respectful submission, offends not one but both of

13     those particular principles, which does not mean that these are not

14     matters I will raise in cross-examination.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But, then, how does the Chamber get the Prosecutor

16     to ask questions she doesn't want to ask?

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I don't believe -- well, part of it is

18     perhaps through the either gentle or forceful objection of the Defence,

19     and the other is within the context of the recognition of what the

20     precise duties are.  I think I understand.  The Chamber's position is

21     that it is preferable, based on what you've said thus far, that when I

22     have the opportunity to cross-examine the witness, I can point out those

23     particular points.  I think that --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And this whole page is going to be tendered.

25     There's no way the Prosecution can tender only those lines without

Page 1118

 1     tendering the entire page which forms the context that you want.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, if that's -- if that's the case, then I

 3     have some comfort.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you ever think it wouldn't be the case that

 5     the page would be tendered together with those sentences?

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I was -- I have been concerned that in terms of

 7     redaction and cutting that we may be in that position, yes, having --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But it is practically impossible, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I've actually been in a situation where

10     I've seen that occur so ...

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where they cut and paste from the page?

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Where they cut or redacted and cut from the page

13     and then presented.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When that happens and you believe that the context

15     of the -- of what is being cut is being lost, stand up and object.

16             At this point, the objection is overruled.  You may proceed,

17     ma'am.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Mr. Treanor, the question that I put to you was:  Do you know

20     when these goals were published?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And when was that?

23        A.   In November 1993, the Official Gazette published a document

24     which, I believe, was entitled the resolution or decision, conclusion,

25     probably of the Assembly, which contained a very abbreviated version of

Page 1119

 1     the strategic goals --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Treanor.  You've answered the

 3     question in the first three lines -- three words.  Can you ask the next

 4     question, please.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be admitted into

 6     evidence.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 8     given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P188, Your Honours.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can document number 06732 be put on the screen,

11     please.

12        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what was specifically was the impact on the command

13     structure?  You said that they had formed their own army, but who was to

14     be in command of the army?

15        A.   Well, the overall commander of the new army was the president of

16     the republic.

17        Q.   And as of that stage, I think, as of the 12th of May, what was

18     the situation in relation to the president of the Serbian republic?

19        A.   Well, the president had not been elected.  The two acting

20     presidents had been exercising the powers of the president of the

21     republic, and on the 12th of May the Assembly passed an amendment to the

22     constitutional law that restructuring the provisional/transitional

23     Presidency, if you will, by forming a three-member Presidency which would

24     exercise the powers of the presidents of the republic until such time as

25     the president was chosen.

Page 1120

 1        Q.   Who were the members of the three-member presidency?

 2        A.   The three members were Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic, who

 3     had been the acting presidents, and Radovan Karadzic was elected as the

 4     third member.

 5        Q.   If I can draw your attention to amendment III of the document in

 6     front of you.  First of all, can you tell the Chamber what this decision

 7     is in relation to the constitution, or how it relates to the

 8     constitution, I should better say?

 9        A.   The decision that's mentioned on the previous page is the

10     decision proclaiming the amendments to the constitution, one of which

11     amends the constitution to include reference to the army and its

12     commander, or who is to lead the army, and that's contained in amendment

13     III.

14        Q.   And then in amendment III we have the -- and does it also make

15     reference to the fact that the president of the republic appoints,

16     promotes, and discharges offices of the army of the Serbian Republic of

17     BH in accordance with the law?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be admitted into

20     evidence.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

22     please be given an exhibit number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P189, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we have exhibit -- Rule 65 ter 06733.

Page 1121

 1        Q.   This is -- is this the document that you referred to earlier when

 2     you said that they issued a decision on the formation of the army and

 3     appointed Mladic as commander?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may this document be admitted into

 6     evidence.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 8     please be given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P190, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:

12        Q.   What was Mladic's position before he became commander of the Main

13     Staff of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14        A.   He was the Chief of Staff of the 2nd Military District.

15        Q.   When did he take that appointment, approximately?

16        A.   That was at the end of April 1992.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we have Rule 65 ter number 06605 on the

18     screen, please.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just get clarity on which appointment is

20     this, the 2nd Military District or commander of --

21             THE WITNESS:  This is appointment as commander of the new army of

22     the Serbian republic.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Exhibit 190 is the -- is that, but Mr. Treanor

25     referred to his prior position from April 1992.

Page 1122

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's why I wanted to know.  Now, that date of

 2     April 1992, does it refer to the former job, or does it refer to this?

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The former job, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   You mentioned earlier in your evidence, Mr. Treanor, that they

 7     adopted laws relating to the army and that was the law on the army and

 8     the law on the defence.  What we see on the screen now is the law on the

 9     army, is it not?  When was that, in fact -- when was that decision taken

10     to implement that law?

11        A.   The law on the army was passed on the -- I believe it was the 1st

12     of June, 1992.

13        Q.   If I can take you to Article 174, which is on page 25 of the

14     English translation and page 17 of the B/C/S.  It states there in Article

15     174 that the supreme commander of the army is the president of the

16     republic.  Now, you told us a moment ago that on the 12th of May, they

17     passed a law, a constitutional law amendment so that there could be a

18     three-member Presidency with Biljana Plavsic, Nikola Koljevic, and

19     Radovan Karadzic.

20        A.   Yes, that's correct.

21        Q.   So at that point they would be the supreme commander of the army;

22     is that right?

23        A.   Yes.  The Presidency was exercising the powers of the president,

24     so the Presidency was the commander-in-chief of the army.

25        Q.   On the same date, on the 1st of June, 1992, when they passed this

Page 1123

 1     law on the army, did they pass any other constitutional laws?

 2        A.   Yes, they did.

 3        Q.   What were they?

 4        A.   They passed another amendment to the constitutional law that

 5     again restructured the transitional office of the Presidency by providing

 6     that it be expanded from three to five members, under certain

 7     circumstances.

 8        Q.   Who were the members of the extended Presidency?

 9        A.   Well, the members of this expanded Presidency would have been the

10     three members of the Presidency, with the addition of the President of

11     the Assembly and the President of the Government.

12        Q.   And who were those persons?

13        A.   Momcilo Krajisnik was the President of the Assembly and

14     Branko Djeric was the President of the Government.

15        Q.   Did that law say how long this extended Presidency -- or what

16     were the conditions upon which the extended Presidency was to be set up?

17        A.   The law stated that that was to apply during a state of war.

18        Q.   And in that law did it then say how long -- what was the duration

19     that they were then to be acting as the president of the Serbian

20     republic?

21        A.   There was no temporal time limit put on.  Just the condition of a

22     state of war.

23        Q.   When was Karadzic elected President of Republika Srpska?

24        A.   Radovan Karadzic was elected President of Republika Srpska on the

25     17th of December, 1992.

Page 1124

 1        Q.   And if I can just take you back, when did the Republic of the

 2     Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina turn into the Republika Srpska?

 3        A.   There were -- in August 1992, pursuant to further constitutional

 4     amendment.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document that's on the

 6     screen, the law on the army, be admitted into evidence, please.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 06650 is admitted into evidence.  May it

 8     please be given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P191, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  May I have exhibit number 06659 on the screen,

12     please.

13        Q.   Is this the decision that you were referring to on the 17th of

14     December, 1992, electing Karadzic to -- as President of RS, Republika

15     Srpska?

16        A.   No.  In the Serbian it's showing, but it's not showing in the

17     English.  In the Serbian it's showing at the top of the right-hand

18     column.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, if we could use the second

20     translation that's attached to the e-court for that Rule 65 ter number.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Just for purposes of clarification, perhaps I'm a

22     bit confused, the document that was previously discussed, that being the

23     amendment to the constitution for which the witness indicated there was

24     no time limit, is not a document that has been proffered at this point.

25     Am I correct?

Page 1125

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Wasn't it P191?

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm not sure.  That's why I'm -- I thought --

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, that wasn't -- I didn't bring that document

 4     up.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  We just talked about it.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  All right.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   Mr. Treanor, the document that's now on the screen, is that the

10     decision electing Karadzic as President?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, can that document be admitted into

14     evidence.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so admitted.  May it please be given an

16     exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P192, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:

20        Q.   Mr. Treanor, I would now like to turn your attention to the

21     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  You mentioned in the beginning of your

22     testimony about the formation of a new Yugoslavia.  When, in fact, was

23     that formed?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if I could have Rule 65 ter number 00441.01

25     on the screen, please.

Page 1126

 1             THE WITNESS:  That was on the 27th of April, 1992.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 3        Q.   And what happened on that date?

 4        A.   A constitution of the new Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was

 5     proclaimed.

 6        Q.   And what was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, commonly known

 7     as the FRY, what was that to be composed of?

 8        A.   It was composed of the Republics of Serbia and Montenegro.

 9        Q.   If I can draw your attention to Article number 2 of the

10     constitution, could it be joined by other member republics?

11        A.   We don't have the translation of that showing, and it's not in

12     this binder.  It could be joined by other entities.

13        Q.   Do you recall -- do you know the article numbers in relation to

14     who commands the army of the FRY, the article numbers of the constitution

15     which --

16        A.   Not off the top of my head.  If I could look at the constitution

17     from my Serbian binder, I'd be pleased to find that.

18        Q.   If I could direct you to Article 135.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm just finding the page number

20     for the English translation.

21        Q.   Mr. Treanor, Article 135, does that tell you who commanded the

22     army?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And what does it say?

25        A.   Well, since I don't have --

Page 1127

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, you still haven't given us the English

 2     translation.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I'm sorry, the

 4     English translation has not been uploaded, and I apologise for that.

 5     It's only the cover page.  We'll move on.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   Mr. Treanor, who was the president of the new Federal Republic of

 9     Yugoslavia?

10        A.   At this date the powers of the president of the new republic were

11     being exercised by the Presidency of the SFRY until such time as a

12     president of the FRY was elected.

13        Q.   And who was that?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, just can I interrupt?  Just to make sure

15     that the record is clear, by "move on," do you mean that you withdraw

16     00441.01?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  At this stage, Your Honour, I don't seek to

18     tender it because we don't have the translation in the system.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  I just wanted to make sure that the

20     record shows what fate it was.

21             You may proceed, ma'am.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:

23        Q.   Mr. Treanor, who was as elected as President of the FRY?

24        A.   Dobrica Cosic was elected President of the FRY.

25        Q.   Do you recall the date?

Page 1128

 1        A.   He was elected on, I believe, the 15th of June, 1992.

 2        Q.   I'd like to turn now to the Supreme Defence Council.  What is

 3     that body?

 4        A.   The Supreme Defence Council in the SFRY was a body established by

 5     the constitution of the SFRY in article 135.  It was composed of the

 6     president of the republic and the presidents of the Republics of Serbia

 7     and Montenegro.

 8        Q.   What were the names of those persons?

 9        A.   The President of the Republic of Serbia at this time was Slobodan

10     Milosevic, and at this time the President, or President of the

11     Presidency, of Montenegro was Momir Bulatovic.

12        Q.   Besides these people, who also attended Supreme Defence Council

13     meetings?

14        A.   The Supreme Defence Council meetings were attended by other high

15     federal civilian and military officials, such as the prime minister or

16     the president of the government, the minister of defence, the Chief of

17     the general staff, sometimes other members of the general staff or other

18     high military commanders.

19        Q.   Who was the Chief of the General Staff at that time in mid-1992?

20        A.   I believe the Chief of Staff at this time was Zivota Panic.  I'm

21     not sure when Zivota Panic came in.  He replaced, I believe,

22     General Adzic at around this time.

23        Q.   Who was the minister for defence?

24        A.   The Minister of Defence would have been -- well, I suppose

25     initially the -- immediately after the 27th of April, until the formation

Page 1129

 1     of a new government, the minister or acting minister of the SFRY would

 2     have been acting defence minister, and that would have been

 3     Blagoje Adzic, until such time as he resigned which, as I say, was around

 4     this time.

 5        Q.   And the prime minister?

 6        A.   Again, until the formation of a new government in the summer

 7     after elections took place on the 31st of May, 1992, the acting prime

 8     minister would have been the prime minister or the acting prime minister

 9     of the former SFRY.

10        Q.   Was the SDC, the Supreme Defence Council, governed by any rules

11     of procedure?

12        A.   Yes.  The SDC adopted rules of procedure at its third session, I

13     believe.

14        Q.   Do you recall approximately the date?

15        A.   I believe that was in July 1992.

16        Q.   And did those rules of procedure set out how the SDC was to

17     conduct its work?

18        A.   Yes, they did.

19        Q.   And what -- what was the process, the procedure, that had to be

20     followed according to these rules in relation to its work at the

21     sessions?

22        A.   Well, it stated that it would carry out its work at the sessions

23     on the basis of materials supplied to it by the federal -- by federal

24     organs, such as the Ministry of Defence or the General Staff.

25        Q.   Was it to adopt -- how was it -- how did it arrive at its

Page 1130

 1     decision-making process?  What was the decision-making process?

 2        A.   Well, they made decisions by consensus, and the president of the

 3     republic issued the appropriate -- the appropriate orders in his name.

 4        Q.   We discussed earlier the strategic objectives that were announced

 5     at the 16th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly on the 12th of May,

 6     1992.  Was the FRY leadership aware of those strategic goals?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have Rule 65 ter number 06974 on the

 8     screen, please.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go to page 41 of the English

11     translation and page 49 of the B/C/S.

12        Q.   What is this document?

13        A.   This is a transcript of an audiotape of the 2nd session of the

14     Supreme Defence Council held on 8 July 1992.

15        Q.   What draws you to the conclusion that the FRY leadership were

16     aware of the strategic objectives enunciated by the Bosnian Serbs?

17        A.   Well, they hold a discussion about military activities in the

18     neighbourhood of Sarajevo, that is, Bosnian Serb military activities.

19     They express their disapproval of those activities and suggest that --

20     they try to convince the Serbs in Bosnia to change their strategy -- to

21     change their strategy, "to take the pressure off us."

22        Q.   What does Dobrica Cosic say about that in particular?

23        A.   He says at the bottom of page 42 -- is that what we're looking

24     at?

25        Q.   Page 41.

Page 1131

 1        A.   I'd spare the Court the beginning of the discussion on page 41

 2     and just move to page 42.

 3        Q.   Mm-hm.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And that's page 42 of the English translation

 5     and I think also 50 of the B/C/S.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, at the bottom of page 42, in the conclusion of

 7     this discussion, Dobrica Cosic says:

 8             "Momir, we all have work to do here to convince Serbs in Bosnia

 9     to change their strategy, to take this pressure off of us," and Momir

10     being Momir Bulatovic, I believe.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:

12        Q.   And then does Zivota Panic have anything to say on this issue?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could go to page 43 of the English

14     translation and page 51 of the B/C/S.

15             THE WITNESS:  Well, yes, on page 43 of the translation, the

16     second speaker on that page, Zivota Panic, I think to understand his

17     remark it's best to refer to the remark made below it by Dobrica Cosic,

18     so I'll read both.  Zivota Panic says:  "They made a strategy plan, and

19     they're going to realise it."  Dobrica Cosic says:  "I feeling that

20     everything developed according to a strategic programme.  Every

21     concession we make triggers the next step of theirs towards the

22     achievement of the main aim, the main aim being obviously breaking this

23     area and this country that we're trying to establish."  The "they" being

24     referring to are the opponents of the Bosnian Serbs and the strategic

25     plan that Dobrica Cosic is alluding to is -- would be their plan.

Page 1132

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland, if you may just refresh my

 2     memory, in the decision on the admission of Mr. Treanor's report, did the

 3     decision not deny admission of the summaries of the minutes on the basis,

 4     amongst others, that the Chamber can read those minutes?  It's just a

 5     compilation of minutes.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Am I wrong to surmise that this is a record of the

 8     minutes, a transcription, he called it, a transcription of the

 9     audio-recording of the minutes?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, you're right.  You're correct, it

11     is a transcript of the 2nd session; however, this is referred to in

12     Mr. Treanor's report.  He refers to eight or so sessions of the SDC

13     minutes, or transcripts, in his Belgrade report that has been -- that he

14     has been allowed to testify about, and --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  While we are in the midst of a break, as I

17     understand it, these are the transcript notes of an audio-tape, and we do

18     not have a copy of that audio-tape.  And I would ask at this point,

19     depending on where there's going, that this document be MFIed until we

20     can deal with issues of authenticity and other issues, and I leave it at

21     that.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if I may respond.  The Prosecution

23     does not have an audio of these transcripts either.  These were provided

24     to us by the Serbian government, the transcripts and the minutes, but we

25     were not provided with audios.

Page 1133

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Uh-huh.  Very well.  I'll leave it at that for

 2     now.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  On that "uh-huh" note, we'll leave it at

 4     that.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be admitted into

 6     evidence, in particular the pages that we have referred to during

 7     Mr. Treanor's testimony.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  It looks like there are lots of pages.

 9     The pages of 65 ter 06974 that have been referred to are admitted into

10     evidence.  May they please be given an exhibit number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Those pages would be Exhibit P193, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have Rule 65 ter number 06669 on the

14     screen, please.

15        Q.   Mr. Treanor, do you know of any other example where the FRY

16     leadership were aware or made reference to the strategic objectives of

17     the Bosnian Serbs?

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I think that mischaracterises, in fact, the

19     testimony thus far.  The pages just read and the testimony just given

20     talk about a strategy which is open to interpretation based upon the

21     information contained therein.  The question is also leading.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's see.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I don't agree, if I may.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, please, you may, ma'am.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  As we said to the last objection, the Defence

Page 1134

 1     are able to cross-examine Mr. Treanor about this.  My earlier question to

 2     him was, Were you aware of any strategic -- the FRY leadership being

 3     aware of the strategy objectives.  He said yes.  I took him to one

 4     document.  My next question was:  Are you aware of any other examples

 5     where the strategic objectives were mentioned by the FRY leadership, the

 6     strategic goals?

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  See, the distinction is -- the distinction

 8     between strategic objectives and strategic goals is strategic goals have

 9     obtained a -- are almost a term of art here.  As I was reviewing the

10     previous documents, it's clear that there's a discussion about a

11     strategy, and it's clear that that strategy may well be involved with

12     issues concerning Sarajevo.  Whether or not that in and of itself defines

13     the SDC's awareness of the strategic goals, as the Prosecution suggests,

14     is a different matter.

15             Now, if the Prosecution wish to ask about the matter of strategy

16     or strategic objectives, because initially -- and I did not object

17     earlier because issues of objection as opposed to goals, I consider there

18     to be a distinction, perhaps a distinction without a difference to the

19     Prosecution.  But quite frankly, among -- well, the objection is for two

20     reasons.  I think, first of all, I maintain it mischaracterises the

21     previous testimony, and second of all, it's leading.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I think I now understand what you're

23     saying.  Let me just make sure I do.  By "mischaracterisation," you are

24     saying strategic goals are now being cast as strategic objectives.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's correct.

Page 1135

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine.  That's a simple one to resolve.  I.

 2             Thought Mr. Treanor is testifying here as an expert and not an

 3     ordinary witness.  Therefore, questions of leading would not be that very

 4     relevant because, in fact, he testifies with his report in front of him

 5     to refresh his memory.  The essence is going to come when he gives this

 6     Court his professional opinion based on all that we are going through

 7     here.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Absolutely understood, Your Honour, but once

 9     again, the mere fact that one is qualified to testify as an expert

10     doesn't necessarily mean that one is qualified to testify about all

11     things that he is presented with.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fair enough.  All I'm saying -- okay, finish your

13     comment.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I am in total agreement with you with regard

15     to the general proposition.  I am in absolute agreement with you.  An

16     expert obtains a different position with regard to the question.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Because he’s not being tested on his recollection

18     of events; he's coming to give an opinion.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We're in agreement here.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  But then in that event are you saying

21     that an objection that a question is leading would be valid?

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It would be valid depending on how one views him

23     as an expert.  He's an expert of what?  He's proffered as an expert of

24     history, he's proffered as an expert of political science, he's proffered

25     as an expert of an interpretation of what somebody else believes is

Page 1136

 1     appropriate to do politically?  I mean, they are different -- distinct

 2     issues.  And to the extent that he's being proffered as a historical

 3     expert, I would stand in a position where I would not have any arguments

 4     with you whatsoever.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not sure I understand your argument.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might.  Upon consideration and an

 8     understanding -- understanding what the Court has just said, at this

 9     point for purposes of this specific question, independent of the issue of

10     mischaracterisation and -- I'll withdraw the objection, although I do

11     have concerns about what the nature is of Mr. Treanor's expertise.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, let's not conflate different topics

13     in one --

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm not trying to.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's not do that.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm not trying to.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You didn't rise objecting to the qualification of

18     Mr. Treanor.  You rose on that he is leading -- he is being led, rather,

19     and that the Prosecutor is mischaracterising.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Correct, and within the --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I'm dealing now with the objection that he is

22     being led.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Right.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I'm saying, isn't it so that as an expert, it

25     doesn't matter if he is an expert on politics, history, or what, but he

Page 1137

 1     sits here as an expert and therefore is entitled to read facts, recollect

 2     them, and then tender an opinion.  And facts can be put to him.  He

 3     doesn't have to remember those facts.  They just have to be put to him,

 4     or he can read them from his report.

 5             And if I may just finish my question to you about that issue, I'm

 6     trying to look for that question again because it didn't look to me like

 7     it was leading in its nature.  The question was:  "Mr. Treanor, do you

 8     know of any other example where the FRY leadership were aware or made

 9     reference to the strategic objectives of the Bosnian Serbs?"  That was

10     the question.  How does it lead?  That's at page 96, line number --

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm with you now.  And the strict evidentiary

12     response to that would be that you are correct if he's viewed as an

13     expert.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Supposing he was not, how is it leading?  The

15     answer to that question is, Yes, I know, or, no, I don't know.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You're absolutely right.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So is it leading?

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It's not, and I've made a mistake.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Then that objection is either

20     overruled -- is overruled, unless you are withdrawing it.

21             Madam, there is an objection that you are mischaracterising the

22     evidence, calling things strategic objectives when they are called

23     strategic goals.  Do you have any response?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I don't see the distinction.

25     Strategic goal is a strategic objective.  An objective is a goal.

Page 1138

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I share what you say, but I do not sit here as an

 2     expert in English.  May I suggest that we stick to the letter of the

 3     documents that we've been tendering, because it makes it very difficult

 4     for me to rule.  I also don't know the difference between the two.  I

 5     must go and consult my dictionary.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I will, too, Your Honour.

 7             If I haven't already, can we have Rule 65 ter number 06669.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  06669.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

10        Q.   If I could direct your attention to page 127 of the English and

11     page 137 of the B/C/S.  First of all, Mr. Treanor, what is this document?

12        A.   This document is shorthand notes of the 1st session of the

13     Council for Coordination of Points of View on State Policy, held on

14     11 August 1992.

15        Q.   And who was in attendance at that meeting?

16        A.   This meeting was attended by the --

17        Q.   The types of people --

18        A.   -- the top leaders of the FRY; namely, Dobrica Cosic, who is the

19     president; Milan Panic, who was the new prime minister; Slobodan

20     Milosevic, who we referred to; Momir Bulatovic, we've also referred to;

21     Vladislav Jovanovic, who was the foreign minister; Pavle Bulatovic, who

22     was the minister of internal affairs of the FRY; General Zivota Panic,

23     the Chief of Staff; and Milo Djukanovic, the president of the government

24     or the prime minister of the Republic of Montenegro; and Radoman Bozovic,

25     who was the president or prime minister of the government of the

Page 1139

 1     Government of the Republic of Serbia, who were described as members of

 2     this council.  And there were other people there as well who were not

 3     members.

 4        Q.   And what discussion was had at this meeting about the strategic

 5     goals?

 6        A.   There's a brief discussion of the strategic goals on page 127 in

 7     the English.  It's just a very short passage, so I can read it.  Zivota

 8     Panic is speaking.  He's describing the issue of the use of force in the

 9     territory of Yugoslavia, and his point 9 in his presentation is:

10             "9.  The possibility to control the Serbian side in

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the wrong choice of strategic aims on the part of

12     the Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina; namely, the takeover of Sarajevo.

13     They constantly insist on taking over Sarajevo."

14             Slobodan Milosevic then says:  "Haven't they given it up?"

15             And Zivota Panic replies:  "Mr. President, they have not given it

16     up.  They had not given it up when we last spoke here with

17     Prime Minister Panic.  They were not so categorical, but they commented

18     all the time that Sarajevo had to be taken over."

19             Now, I must remark that the phrase "strategic aims" is the same

20     phrase that has been translated in previous documents as "strategic

21     goals."

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be -- the pages

24     that we have referred to, be admitted into evidence, please.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  A quick point of clarification.  I take it that

Page 1140

 1     document was obtained in the same fashion as the previous document?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I would have to check on that, but I presume so.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That was a document that was forwarded to you by

 4     the government.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm saying I will check on that --

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- but it's my understanding.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me get clear, is it your understanding that it

 9     is also a transcript of an audiotape which audiotape you are not in

10     possession of?

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I don't think that's the query, Your Honour.

12     It's simply the source of the document.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Explain yourself.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.  Is it a transcript of an audiotape, and is

16     it a document -- and, in addition, is it a document that you received

17     from the Serbian government?

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you don't have an audio --

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  And you don't have the audio.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You will check that, ma'am.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

23             THE WITNESS:  If I can, Your Honour, at the bottom of the second

24     page in the English, it states who took the shorthand notes.  As I stated

25     at the beginning of my testimony about this document, these are shorthand

Page 1141

 1     notes of the meeting.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We understand that they are shorthand notes.  That

 3     is not the problem that we are faced with at the moment.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Well, there would be no recording.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's an assumption that I'm not comfortable

 6     with at this moment.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I've been in meetings where there are people

 9     taking shorthand, and it's also been recorded.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam, you will find out.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  So --

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can that document, the pages that I took

14     Mr. Treanor to, can they be admitted into evidence, please?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  The pages of 06669 that were referred

16     to are admitted into evidence.  May they please be given an exhibit

17     number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Those pages would be Exhibit P194, Your Honours.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And I note the time, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Sutherland.

21             Mr.  Treanor, we are not done with you.  You are supposed to come

22     back at Monday, the 10th, at 9.00 in the morning, in this same court.

23     Once again you are warned about not having to communicate with anybody

24     about this case until you are excused from coming -- as a witness.  Thank

25     you very much.

Page 1142

 1             Court adjourned to Monday, the 10th, Courtroom II, at 9.00 in the

 2     morning.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of

 5                           November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.