Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1143

 1                           Monday, 10 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom today.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  May we have appearances for

12     the day starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. SAXON:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour.  Ms. Ann

14     Sutherland and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution, together with myself,

15     Dan Saxon.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  And for the Defence.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good morning, Your Honour.  Novak Lukic; Daniela

18     Tasic, our case manager; Chad Mair; Tina Drolec; Eadaoin O'Brien, one of

19     our interns; and my name is Gregor Guy-Smith.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the record reflect that we're sitting pursuant

21     to Rule 15 bis today because for reasons unavoidable Judge David is not

22     with us today.

23                           WITNESS:  PATRICK TREANOR [Resumed]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Treanor, good morning.

25             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honour.

Page 1144

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I remind you you're still bound by the

 2     declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the

 3     truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I understand, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             Ms. Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]

 9        Q.   Mr. Treanor, I first want to take you back to something that you

10     said at the very beginning of the hearing last Thursday which appears at

11     transcript pages 1043 and 1044.  You were making corrections to events

12     which occurred in the Republic of Serbian Krajina in early 1991.  You

13     mentioned three dates.  On the transcript page 1043 at line 23, you

14     mention the 28th of February, 1992.  On transcript page 1044, line 1, you

15     mentioned the 1st of April, 1992, and on line 3 of the same page you

16     mention the 25th of April, 1992.

17             Now, the 25th of April, 1992, date was corrected by you to 1991.

18     However, the two dates you also mentioned before that were not picked up.

19     For the correctness of the record with the remaining two dates, that is

20     the 28th of February, 1992 and the 1st of April, 1992, did you, in fact,

21     mean to say 1991 and not 1992?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   In relation to the correctness of the record, are there any other

24     matters that you wish to draw the attention of the parties in the court

25     to?

Page 1145

 1        A.   Yes, there is.

 2        Q.   What are they?

 3        A.   At the very end of the session on Thursday, there was some

 4     discussion of the phrase "strategic goals," and I compared the two

 5     phrases -- or that phrase as it appeared in two different documents.  I

 6     believe I said that they were the same in Serbian.  In fact, there is a

 7     slight difference between the two phrases in Serbian as they appeared in

 8     those two documents that the difference being in the first word of the

 9     phrase, the word that was rendered in both cases in English as

10     "strategic."  The adjective in Serbian in the two different cases takes a

11     slightly different form.  The second word of the phrase "goals" is the

12     same.  That word was translated in two different ways in those two

13     different documents.  So there is a slight difference between the two

14     phrases as they appeared in those documents in the first word of the

15     phrase.

16        Q.   Perhaps then we could --

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.  I appreciate the correction, but I'm

18     not sure I understand precisely what it is.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Neither do I.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I think, Your Honour, it might assist if we can

21     quickly go -- turn back to those two documents.

22        Q.   Mr. Treanor, the two documents you were referring to were the

23     last two documents that you were shown, that is P193.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If that could be brought up onto the screen,

25     please.  And I think that is at pages 41 to 42 of the English translation

Page 1146

 1     and pages 49 to 51 of the B/C/S.  And if we could go to the bottom of

 2     page 42 where Dobrica Cosic is speaking.

 3        Q.   Is that the -- is that the paragraph you were referring to,

 4     Mr. Treanor?

 5        A.   No.  Actually, I believe the document I was referring to was the

 6     last document in the session, which I think is --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That will be Exhibit 194.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  If it --

 9             THE WITNESS:  And the other document was the 16th session of the

10     Bosnian Serb Assembly.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  In relation to P194, if we could go to page 127

12     of the English translation and page 137 of the B/C/S.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know whether it's me alone, but on this

14     English channel I keep hearing some people way in the background.  Are

15     there crossed lines somewhere?

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You mean the ghosts.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, there are ghosts.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, yes.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  At least we're all hearing them.  That's fine.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:

21        Q.   I think, Mr. Treanor, you were talking about point 9 of -- of

22     Zivota Panic's discussion?

23        A.   Yes, that's right.  I think I can make the point just looking at

24     this particular document.  We discussed point nine where it says

25     "strategic aims."  The word aims is the word that had been translated

Page 1147

 1     before as goals.  That word is the same as we had seen it in the 16th

 2     session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly.

 3             The first word which here is translated as "strategic" in Serbian

 4     is slightly different than the Serbian adjective that we saw before in

 5     the 16th session.  Here the adjectival form is used is strategiski as

 6     opposed to strateski in the 16th session.  So there is that difference

 7     between the two adjectives.  They're both formed from the same root,

 8     however.

 9        Q.   Could you explain to the Chamber the differences as you see them

10     between the two?

11        A.   Well, I think that the meaning of the two words is the same.

12     They've been translated the same in English.  One could perhaps capture

13     the difference by saying strategic and strategical.  I think those two

14     words exist in English.  I'm not aware if they have any difference in

15     meaning either.  I just wanted to point out that minor difference in the

16     two phrases.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, yes.  Thank you very much, Mr. Treanor.  I

18     want to assume that Mr. Guy-Smith doesn't know B/C/S and that his

19     objection, I thought, was based on the substitution of the word "goals"

20     with the word "objectives."  I'm not quite sure whether he understood --

21     he was -- I'm not quite sure he was objecting to the word "strategic,"

22     but he's here.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, you're absolutely right.  That was my

24     objection at the time.  I'm pleased to receive the education with regards

25     to the difference between the adjectival use of strategic, which is a

Page 1148

 1     different matter.  Whether strategic and strategical mean the same thing

 2     is something perhaps that we can take up at a different point, but Your

 3     Honour is right.  That was what my concern was at the time, but

 4     apparently we remain in the same state of play as regards to that

 5     particular issue, I gather, from what Mr. Treanor has said.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  Thank you very much.

 7             Yes, Madam Sutherland.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   Mr. Treanor, was there anything else?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   As everyone is aware during last Thursday's hearing, there were a

12     number of technical glitches with the documents in e-court.  I would have

13     liked to have dealt with those documents before we moved on today, but

14     unfortunately I'm unable to do so until they're uploaded into e-court,

15     which hasn't yet occurred.  However, one of the exhibits which was MFI'd,

16     that's P184, I wish to tender the pages that were identified during

17     Thursday's hearing.  P194 MFI was first called up at transcript page

18     1079, line 17?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, sorry.  Are you talking about P184 MFI,

20     because 194 was not MFI'd.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  P184.  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

22             It was first called up as 65 ter number 06668.  The exhibit was

23     MFIed at transcript page 1088.  The registrar and case manager located

24     the pages which had been discussed by Mr. Treanor, which were

25     subsequently read into the record by the registrar at transcript page

Page 1149

 1     1107.  I now wish to tender those pages as Exhibit P184.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Those pages are admitted into evidence as Exhibit

 3     P184.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 7        Q.   The Defence queried the source of two exhibits at transcript

 8     pages 1132 in relation to P194 and transcript pages 1139 in relation to

 9     P194.  In addition, the Defence queried whether the OTP was in possession

10     of audios of both of these exhibits.  Inquiries have been made with

11     respect to the two queries, and regarding the source, I said at

12     transcript page 1132 that it was provided by the Serbian government;

13     however, at that time it was known as the federal republic of Yugoslavia,

14     i.e., the government of the Republic of Serbia and Montenegro.  With

15     regard to the query re: The audio, the FRY government did not provide the

16     OTP with audios of either of these exhibits.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The transcript refers to one exhibit,

18     Madam Sutherland.  I know that you did mention exhibits twice, but I also

19     heard you mention P194 twice instead of two separate exhibits.  Just look

20     at page 7, line 1 and 2.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, on page 6 -- or for me it's page 6,

22     line 25, but obviously on your screen it's page 7, line 1, the first

23     exhibit that I mentioned was P193.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see.  I don't have page 25 at page -- I mean,

25     line 25 at page 6, unfortunately.  So --

Page 1150

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I mentioned two exhibits, P193 and 194.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And the -- the page number is also incorrect on

 4     that first page.  It's transcript page 1132.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Instead of?

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Well, that doesn't appear in the transcript.

 7     P193 was discussed at transcript page 1132 and P194, the query was raised

 8     at transcript page 1139.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you for that clarification.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Now, on Thursday afternoon, Mr. Treanor, we had

11     been dealing with the documents in relation to the Federal Republic of

12     Yugoslavia, and if we can turn back to that topic now.

13             You mentioned earlier in your testimony that Dobrica Cosic was

14     the president of the FRY.  Who became president after Dobrica Cosic?

15        A.   Zoran Lilic was the next president of the FRY.

16        Q.   When was he elected to that position?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have Rule 65 ter number 06824.

18     Page 1 -- it's a one-page document, both English and B/C/S.

19        A.   As we can see from this document, that occurred on the 25th of

20     June, 1993.

21        Q.   Who appointed him.  Who -- who passed that decision, I'm sorry?

22        A.   He was elected by the Federal Assembly of the FRY.

23        Q.   Who was the chief of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavian army

24     when Lilic became president?

25        A.   If by "chief" you mean the chief of staff, the chief of staff at

Page 1151

 1     that time was General Zivota Panic.

 2        Q.   Who did Lilic subsequently appoint as chief of the General Staff

 3     of the --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   Who did Lilic subsequently appoint as Chief of the General Staff

 7     of the army of the FRY?

 8        A.   Mr. Lilic shortly thereafter appointed General Momcilo Perisic as

 9     Chief of the General Staff.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter number 05046 on the screen,

11     please.  Page 1 of each of the B/C/S and English at the moment and then

12     onto page 2 of the English translation.

13        Q.   When did this occur, Mr. Treanor?

14        A.   That occurred on the 26th of August, 1993.  As can be seen in

15     this document.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, can those -- that document and the

17     previous document, so Rule 65 ter number 06824, may that be admitted into

18     evidence.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say 6824, 06824 --

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That was the decision on the election of Lilic.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  65 ter 06824 is admitted into evidence.

22     May it please be given an exhibit number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P195, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  And 05046 is also admitted.

25     May it please be given an exhibit number.

Page 1152

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P196.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 4        Q.   I want to now direct your attention to legislation that was

 5     passed by the FRY Assembly in relation to the army.  Can you tell the

 6     Court what -- what law was passed and when?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I have Rule 65 ter number 00426 on the

 8     screen, please.

 9        A.   Two major pieces of legislation came into effect at the end of

10     1993, a Law on Defence and a law on the army of Yugoslavia.  They came

11     into effect provisionally in October 1993, and they're -- and they came

12     into effect in their final form in May 1994.

13        Q.   Turning to the law on the army, does this govern the duties and

14     responsibilities of army personnel including the Chief of the General

15     Staff?

16        A.   Yes, it does.

17        Q.   If I could take you to Article 4 of the -- the law on the army,

18     which is on page 2 of the B/C/S and page 2 of the -- sorry, page 1 of the

19     B/C/S and page 2 of the English translation.

20             Who commands the army in -- under -- under this legislation?

21        A.   Well, in terms of Article 4, as we can see in the first paragraph

22     it states "The president of the republic shall command the army in war

23     and peace in accordance with decisions of the Supreme Defence Council."

24        Q.   Thank you.  Your Honour, may this document be admitted into

25     evidence?

Page 1153

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 2     please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P197, Your Honours.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   Mr. Treanor, we've dealt with the Serb political entities of the

 6     Republic of Serbian Krajina in Croatia, the Republic of Serbia in Bosnia

 7     and Herzegovina, and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  I want to turn

 8     now to discuss international developments which affected these Serbian

 9     entities and the relations among -- amongst them.  I would like to take

10     you back to April 1992.  Towards the end of April what position did the

11     FRY take vis-a-vis the other republics of the -- what were then SFRY?

12        A.   It adopted a --

13        Q.   I'm sorry, if I could -- could correct myself.  At that time they

14     were no longer republics of the SFRY, but I meant in relation to

15     republics of the former SFRY.  If I could have 65 ter number 06695 on the

16     screen, please.  Page 1 of the B/C/S and English and then onto page 2 of

17     the English translation.  I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

18        A.   On 27 April 1992, representatives of the Republic of Serbia and

19     the Republic of Montenegro adopted a declaration which dealt with those

20     relations.

21        Q.   And basically what was the position?

22        A.   I would call the Court's attention to paragraph numbered 4 in

23     that connection, which is on the next page of the English translation.

24     Paragraph 4 in the middle of the page.  "The Federal Republic of

25     Yugoslavia has no territorial pretensions against any of its neighbours.

Page 1154

 1             Respecting the aims and principles of the United Nations charter.

 2     The CSCE documents it shall adhere strictly to the principle of using

 3     non-violent means to resolve any open issues."  The CSCE is the

 4     abbreviation for the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe,

 5     which later on became known as the OSCE.

 6        Q.   Now, from documents that you've reviewed and some of which we

 7     will see subsequently, was that, in fact, the case, that FRY had no

 8     territorial pretensions?

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.  I -- before the witness answers the

10     question, I think it's outside the purview of his expertise, and it

11     calls for a legal conclusion with regard to relatively critical issue.

12     If the witness wishes to, through examination, point to documents it's

13     different than drawing the conclusion at this time.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, in my submission Mr. Treanor can

16     answer this question.  He has reviewed numerous documents, and he can

17     give his opinion based on his review of those documents as to whether, in

18     fact, this statement is -- is a correct one.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you doubt the correctness of the statement?

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why?  Why do you doubt it?

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I don't want to give evidence from the bar

23     table, Your Honour, but we will see clearly from documents that will be

24     coming up that they were -- the FRY were clearly involved in the

25     territory of the former republics of the SFRY -- the republics of the

Page 1155

 1     former SFRY.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The problem is this witness is not a fact witness.

 3     Now you want him to confirm a fact.  He's an expert.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No.  I'm asking --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you're saying to me that other documents are

 6     going to come and contradict this document, then let so be it.  Then the

 7     question is he the person who can reconcile any contradictions or not,

 8     and if he is, then you can ask him so, but I'm not quite sure whether

 9     he's here as a fact witness.  If you're asking him to confirm a fact.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.  I'm asking him to give me an

11     opinion in relation to all the documents that he has reviewed whether, in

12     fact, that statement as -- as it stands, as it reads, is correct.  We can

13     move on, Your Honour, and we can demonstrate through the documents.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do that.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what implications did this declaration that you

17     have -- I'm sorry, could that document be admitted into evidence, Your

18     Honour?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You haven't given us the 65 ter number.  What is

20     it?

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  06695.  I thought I brought the document up onto

22     the screen.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  06695.  Oh, sorry.  I probably didn't take it

24     down.  Thank you very much.  The exhibit is admitted into evidence.  May

25     it please be given an exhibit number.

Page 1156

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P198, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 4        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what implications did this document have for the FRY

 5     and the JNA?

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if I could have 65 ter number 06693 on the

 7     screen, please.

 8        A.   At the date that declaration was adopted, the JNA was still

 9     present in BH, and shortly thereafter the FRY -- the new FRY authorities

10     agreed to withdraw the JNA from BH by a certain date.  I believe the date

11     was the 19th of May, 1992.

12        Q.   If I can take you to page 4 of the English translation and page 4

13     of the B/C/S.  Mr. Treanor, this is minutes of the 197th session of the

14     Presidency of the SFRY.  What did they agree in relation to the JNA at

15     this session?

16        A.   At this session of the Presidency of the SFRY, which if I can

17     remind the Court was exercising the powers of the president of the new

18     FRY pending the election of the president, the Presidency of the SFRY

19     made certain decisions about the -- the -- the Yugoslav army as it was

20     now called in relation to its presence in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21        Q.   What did they decide?

22        A.   Well, I would call the Court's attention to the English under

23     Item 2, which is item 2 in the agenda.  I won't read the whole thing

24     certainly.  In the second paragraph under that item, the Presidency calls

25     for members of the JNA in BH to return to Yugoslavia within 15 days at

Page 1157

 1     the latest, and in the second paragraph, if I could read that, there

 2     was -- there's a slight problem perhaps in the translation.

 3             "Given that this process will be concluded within 15 days at the

 4     latest, the Yugoslav Presidency has estimated," not "decided," "that

 5     according to the SFRY constitution, there are no grounds for the Yugoslav

 6     Presidency, or any other Yugoslav organ, to make decisions regarding

 7     military issues on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

 8             And the next paragraph I would just read a bit because again

 9     there appear to be a couple of translation issues.

10             "The Yugoslav Presidency has concluded," not "decided," "to call

11     on the leaderships of all three national," "national," not "ethnic,"

12     "communities in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Muslims, Serbs, and Croats, to

13     reach an agreement and make a decision on taking on the JNA which is made

14     up of citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to avoid unwanted

15     situations and consequences."

16             The army was still at this point officially known as the JNA of

17     the new name.  The new name, Yugoslav Army, was not officially adopted

18     until the 19th or the 20th of May.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I note in your -- in your reading, Mr. Treanor,

20     that you're skipping what is written in the English translation as "that

21     part of the JNA."

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.  Those words do

23     not appear in the original.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So just a second.  I'm trying to understand this

Page 1158

 1     document as translated by Mr. Treanor.

 2             So do I understand you to be saying, then, that the JNA that is

 3     made up of citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina will stay in Bosnia and

 4     Herzegovina?  Is that what you are saying?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Well, it -- first a decision being made.  That

 6     would be part of the decision, I imagine.  It doesn't say that they would

 7     necessarily stay there pursuant to that decision.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My understanding of your translation was that the

 9     Presidency has concluded, not decided, to call on the leadership of all

10     three national communities, Muslims, Serbs, and Croats, to reach an

11     agreement and make a decision on taking the JNA, which is made up of

12     citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So the decision that is anticipated from these

15     national communities is that they must take up the JNA that is made up of

16     those citizens.

17             THE WITNESS:  Right.  In other words, members of the JNA that are

18     citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I agree that the words -- that "part

19     of" would logically fit in that sentence, but, unfortunately, they're not

20     in the original, but that would be the sense.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  I thank you.

22             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Just so I'm clear, just with regard to what the

24     witness just said, because as we understand the issue of translation and

25     interpretation is, in fact, an art and not a science.  Since he indicated

Page 1159

 1     that that particular language "that part of the JNA" makes sense.  Do I

 2     understand what the witness is saying those words are not contained in

 3     the document, but the document itself would give that as a meaning?  I'm

 4     just unclear as to what he's saying at this point in particular, whether

 5     he's discussing a literal -- whether it's literally written a particular

 6     way, Your Honour or not.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, as I understand him yes the words are not

 8     mentioned in the original, but that interpretation would be the logical

 9     interpretation because some of the members of the JNA will not

10     necessarily be citizens of BiH.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  I just want to make sure because I don't

12     want to dwell on points that don't need to be dwelt on.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.  But be that as it may, this now --

14     may I ask a question.  Is this an official translation or is this a draft

15     translation?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  One moment.  It's a draft official translation,

17     Your Honour, draft CLSS translation.  Official being what you termed the

18     other day as the CLSS unit that has -- that was set up.  So this is a

19     draft of -- from the CLSS.  I was going to ask Your Honour to mark it for

20     identification and then we would seek to get a revised translation.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Sutherland.

22             It is with that in mind that I was asking the question.  Then 65

23     ter 06693 will be made -- may it please be given an exhibit number and

24     marked for identification.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P199 marked for

Page 1160

 1     identification, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may proceed, Madam

 3     Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 02144.01 on the

 5     screen, please, at page 353 of the English translation and 422 of the

 6     B/C/S.

 7        Q.   Mr. Treanor --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess -- if I may just sound a warning.  We are

 9     going to do admit only the pages you deal with.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are dealing with so many --

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That's correct.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That said, the previous document 6693 is a

15     five-page document.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So that document is admitted in its entirety,

18     whereas the next document is quite substantive.

19        Q.   Mr. Treanor, so how did the withdrawal of the JNA work out, in

20     fact?

21        A.   Well, on the basis of the next document, we're going to be

22     seeing, the JNA officers and men who were in Bosnia and were citizens of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina that remained there and became part of the Bosnian

24     Serb forces.  Also, a bunch of its equipment was left there and was taken

25     over by the Bosnian Serb forces.

Page 1161

 1        Q.   This document that is on the screen is -- is it not a transcript

 2     of a continuation of the 34th session of the SDS Assembly on the -- held

 3     on the 28th of August, 1993?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.  In fact, that was a very long session extended over

 5     several days in the course of over a month.  This particular statement

 6     was made on the 11th of September, 1993.

 7        Q.   I took you and the Court to page 353 of the English translation

 8     and 422 of the B/C/S in order so that they could see the speaker.  Who is

 9     speaking at this session?

10        A.   General Milan Gvero.

11        Q.   And then if I could go to page 354 and 423 of the English and

12     B/C/S respectively.

13             Can you tell the Court General Gvero's position in August 1993

14     reflecting back on -- on the withdrawal of the JNA in May 1992?

15        A.   Yes.  Perhaps I could call the Court's attention to the first

16     full paragraph in the English translation beginning with "The SDS --"

17     I'll just read that paragraph and the following sentence and the next

18     paragraph.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That whole long paragraph do you want to read?

20             THE WITNESS:  No that particular paragraph beginning with the SDS

21     is -- it's five lines long mercifully.  If I could read that in the first

22     sentence of the next paragraph.  General Gvero says:

23             "The SDS and the state institutions that have established -- that

24     have been established take the most credits for arming the Serb people

25     with personal weapons, which was made possible by the rapid support of

Page 1162

 1     the many Serb officers in the commands of the former JNA on the territory

 2     of the former BH, Serbs in internal affairs institutions, if you will,

 3     and in the political institutions of the army and Serbia, that is the

 4     FRY."

 5             And the beginning of the next paragraph:

 6             "In May 1992, after the JNA left our territory, the army of

 7     Republic of Srpska was established, and Serbs from the former JNA were

 8     appointed to the most important commanding positions."

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I note once again that your translation is not

10     identical with the translation as we have it.

11             THE WITNESS:  Right.  There were a couple --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Once again I ask the status of this translation.

13     Is it an official translation?  Is it -- is it and final translation?  Is

14     it a draft translation?

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's a draft -- draft translation, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  You may proceed, ma'am.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:

18        Q.   Does General Gvero also talk about the -- the weapons to be

19     left -- that were left there?  Does he --

20        A.   Well, he makes -- he makes a statement addressing the equipment

21     of the Bosnian Serb forces.  Further down in that paragraph, there's just

22     one sentence I would draw the Court's attention to.  It's at the very

23     bottom of the English as appearing on the screen now.  The line beginning

24     with "No one to ask," the first full sentence begins:

25             "We had neither a budget to support us nor the material resources

Page 1163

 1     to fight the war.  Not a single plane or helicopter has been bought, nor

 2     any artillery weapons, et cetera."

 3        Q.   Mr. Treanor, if I can just take you back up to the paragraph

 4     beginning "In May 1992," and towards the end of that paragraph, does

 5     General Gvero say anything about the direction -- the direction of the --

 6     the -- that would be taken?

 7        A.   Yes.  He says -- in referring to -- referring to the main

 8     tasks of the army:

 9             "All the human and material resources were kept that could help

10     improve the situation on the front.  The principle direction was

11     establishing a combat force and keeping the unity of all the Serb people

12     in order to achieve the goals of war."

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if that page may be admitted into

14     evidence and marked for identification while we get a revised translation

15     of that page.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Only that page or also 353?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I simply took you to page 353 so

18     that you could see where Gvero was starting the conversation so you that

19     knew who the person -- the speaker was, but the page -- the only page

20     that I'm interested in or we're interested in is page 354 of the English

21     translation and 423 of the B/C/S.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Page 354 of 65 ter 02144 is

23     admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P200 marked for

25     identification, Your Honours.

Page 1164

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yes.  Thank you so much.

 2     Marked for identification.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 4        Q.   Mr. Treanor, in light of what we've just seen, what position did

 5     the international community take in relation to the JNA withdrawal?  If I

 6     could have 65 ter number 02067 on the screen, please.

 7        A.   Well, the international community in the shape of the UN Security

 8     Council was very anxious that all foreign forces leave BH in May 1992,

 9     and it passed two Resolutions in that connection.

10        Q.   We're looking at Resolution 752.  Is that the first Resolution

11     you were referring to?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   And what demands did the Security Council put on the parties?

14     The --

15        A.   Well, to answer that question, I would draw the Court's attention

16     to numbered item 3, which would be on the next page or the following page

17     in the English.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly lower his microphones

19     a little bit.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You heard that, Mr. Treanor?

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They don't seem to have gone much lower.

23             THE WITNESS:  Again calling the Court's attention to numbered

24     paragraph 3 in the middle of the page, and number 4 and number 6.  I

25     won't read them since there are no translation issues and we can all see

Page 1165

 1     them, but number 3 refers to demanding that all forms of interference

 2     from outside BH, including units of the JNA, cease immediately.

 3             Paragraph 4 demands that those units of the Yugoslav People's

 4     Army and elements of the Croatian army now in BH must be withdrawn, et

 5     cetera.

 6             And paragraph 6 called upon all parties and others concerned to

 7     ensure that forcible expulsions, I guess that's not responsive to the

 8     question, but paragraphs 3 and 4 relate to the issue of foreign forces in

 9     BH.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that be admitted into evidence.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 02067 is admitted into evidence.  May it

12     please be given an exhibit number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P201, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 02193 on the

16     screen.  Firstly at page 1 and then to page 3 of the English translation

17     and pages 2 to 3 of the B/C/S.

18        Q.   Mr. Treanor, were the international community -- or Security

19     Council satisfied with measures taken by the FRY to disengage itself from

20     BiH in response to the previous Resolution we just saw?

21        A.   No, they weren't.

22        Q.   In that regard, they issued a subsequent Resolution?

23        A.   Yes, they did.

24        Q.   Was that Resolution 757?

25        A.   Yes, that's the one.

Page 1166

 1        Q.   And what demands did that -- did that take?

 2        A.   Well, in that connection I would call the Court's attention to

 3     the next page -- or page 3 of the Resolution beginning with numbered

 4     point 1 there in which we can see the Security Council condemns the

 5     failure of the authorities in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

 6     including the Yugoslav People's Army, to take effective measures to

 7     fulfil the requirements of the previous Resolution that we'd just seen.

 8             And in point 3 it decided that all states shall adopt measures as

 9     set up below, which will apply until the Security Council decides that

10     the authorities had taken effective measures.

11             And in the points below it sets out certain measures restricting

12     commerce between the FRY and other states.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be admitted into

14     evidence.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's so admitted.  May it please be given an

16     exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P202, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:

20        Q.   Could you briefly tell the Court what progress was made towards

21     making peace after the sanctions were imposed.

22        A.   Well, after the sanctions which were referred to were imposed, I

23     don't believe the Resolution actually uses the word "sanctions,"

24     negotiations continued for a settlement in BH under the auspices of the

25     international community.  The so-called International Conference on the

Page 1167

 1     Former Yugoslavia was formed at the end of August or beginning of

 2     September 1992.

 3             The co-chairmen of that conference were Lord David Owen and Cyrus

 4     Vance, and the parties in conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina carried out

 5     negotiations throughout the autumn of 1992 under their auspices and began

 6     to come close to an agreement on a package of measures which came to be

 7     known as the Vance-Owen Plan.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have Rule 65 ter number 06690 on the

 9     screen, please.

10        Q.   Mr. Treanor, this is a transcript of the 20th session of the

11     Bosnian Serb Assembly session held on the 14th and 15th of September,

12     1992.  What were the objectives of the Bosnian Serb leadership put

13     forward in this Assembly session?

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if I could, first of all, ask the Registry

15     to turn to page 51 of the English translation and 56 of the B/C/S simply

16     so that we could see the speaker.

17        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what did Radovan Karadzic have to say about -- about

18     the objectives?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if I could -- sorry.  If we can see, Your

20     Honours, down at the bottom of the page president Radovan Karadzic begins

21     to speak at that point.  And it's at the top of the B/C/S page.  If we

22     could turn to page 55 of the English translation and page 60 of the

23     B/C/S?

24        Q.   What were the issues that -- that Mr. Karadzic was talking about

25     here?

Page 1168

 1        A.   I would call the Court's attention to the paragraph in the

 2     English beginning "Please," which -- in which it refers to the goals and

 3     issues in the negotiations.  I will not read that whole paragraph, but

 4     just at the beginning:

 5             "Please, we know what our goals are.  There can be some

 6     negotiations about the borders - a village here or there, that can be

 7     decided locally by whomever wants, but our goal is to protect our

 8     territory and endure long enough for all factors to agree."

 9             It then goes on to say "The factual situation will be decisive,"

10     and talks about the nature of the borders that he would like to see.  He

11     says:

12             "We'll accept the external borders on the condition that we get

13     the internal borders, but we will make do everything we can to make the

14     internal borders thicker than the external borders without publicly

15     saying so.  Our borders towards the Muslims and Croats are to be thicker

16     than our borders towards Serbia and Montenegro and the Serbian Krajina.

17     That is why I ask you as deputies to never doubt what our goal is.  Our

18     goal is a state."

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, as you can see the word "objective"

20     is in the English translation that's on the screen, and Mr. Treanor uses

21     the word "goal."  I would ask that be admitted into evidence and marked

22     for identification, and we will have a revised translation of that

23     particular passage.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so admitted.  May it please be given an

25     exhibit number and marked for identification.

Page 1169

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P203 marked for

 2     identification.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I rise just for a point clarification.

 5             When my colleague says we will have a revised translation, I take

 6     it what is going to occur is that the document will be sent to CLSS, and

 7     they will make a determination what the appropriate word is there,

 8     whether it's Mr. Treanor's word, or whether or not they stand by what

 9     they've already done.  We just don't know at this point.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Of course.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I note that that is a final CLSS

13     translation at the moment.  So as --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it a final translation?

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I guess the idea was that if it is a final

17     translation, then we accept it as it is.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think --

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.  CLSS have in the past reviewed

20     their final translations.  They have gone back to rereview them if they

21     are asked to do so, and in this --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And in this --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If they are asked to do so.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

Page 1170

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Our guideline here was that if it is the final

 2     CLSS, it is to be accepted as final, unless you are saying specifically

 3     that you are asking that we send it back for -- for review by CLSS.  At

 4     this point in time, there is no such intention on the part of the Bench.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it's -- Mr. Treanor's evidence is

 6     on the record, so it can -- it can stay as is.  It can be marked -- can

 7     it please be admitted into evidence.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted into evidence.  Thank you very

 9     much.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:

11        Q.   Mr. Treanor, I want to take you now to December 1992.  What

12     percentage of the territory did the Bosnian Serbs have in relation to

13     Bosnia and Herzegovina?  Approximately.

14        A.   If memory serves me correctly, I believe in the Bosnian Serb

15     Assembly it was stated that in the autumn of 1992 that Bosnian Serb

16     forces were in occupation of 70 per cent of the territory of the

17     republic.

18        Q.   So by December 1992 were they -- were they willing to make peace

19     at this point, the Bosnian Serbs?

20        A.   Yes.  They declared their willingness to do so.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have Rule 65 ter number 09168 on the

22     screen, please.  It's a one-page document.

23        Q.   Did the Bosnian Serbs issue any declaration to this effect?

24        A.   Yes, they did.

25        Q.   When did that occur?

Page 1171

 1        A.   That was on the 17th of December, 1992.

 2        Q.   And what did they -- what did they pass?  What did they issue?

 3        A.   They adopted a declaration proclaiming an end to the war.

 4        Q.   Is this the declaration that was passed at the 23rd Bosnian Serb

 5     Assembly session?

 6        A.   Yes, this is the declaration I was referring to.

 7        Q.   What's the importance of this declaration in relation to borders?

 8        A.   Well, in that connection I would call the Court's attention to

 9     numbered paragraph 3, which states that:

10             "Republika Srpska is ready to realise its borders as defined by

11     its Assembly using political means.  Its present boundaries are only

12     temporary.

13             The present boundaries of Republika Srpska are only temporary

14     pending the conclusion of a peace agreement between the parties to the

15     conflict in the former SR," that is socialist republic, "Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina."

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be admitted into

18     evidence.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

20     please be given an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P204, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:

24        Q.   So we can see from that document that the Bosnian Serbs were

25     willing to negotiate.  Did the Belgrade leadership support this?

Page 1172

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have Rule 65 ter number --

 2        A.   Yes, they did.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- 06620 on the screen, please.

 4        Q.   In what way did the Belgrade leadership support it?

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Perhaps if we could go to page 95 of the English

 6     and page 70 of the B/C/S.

 7        Q.   What is this document, Mr. Treanor?

 8        A.   This document is the stenographic notes of an enlarged session of

 9     the council for the reconciliation of the stands on state policies.  This

10     is a body that we encountered earlier in my testimony.  I think we had at

11     least one meeting in August of 1992 of this body.

12             This is an enlarged session.  Some people other than members of

13     the council are present, including Serbian leaders from Croatia and

14     Bosnia, such as Radovan Karadzic, and Momcilo Krajisnik, Nikola Koljevic,

15     and many others.

16        Q.   Does that include also Ratko Mladic?

17        A.   Yes, he was there.  And Zivota Panic is also there among the

18     Belgrade leaders.

19             In response to your first question, what did they do to encourage

20     them, they pointed out to them that they had achieved their goals to an

21     extent already that would warrant concluding peace and a peace which

22     would confirm what they had gained already, and achieved the recognition,

23     if you will, of the Bosnian Serb republic in BH.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, we can see on page 95 of the

25     English translation and page 70 of the B/C/S that the speaker is

Page 1173

 1     Slobodan Milosevic.  I can't see it on the English translation just yet.

 2     Can we go to the top of the page of the English translation.  Could we go

 3     back one page, please.

 4             I'm sorry, on page 71 of the English translation.  My apologies.

 5        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what basically -- not basically.  What -- what is

 6     Slobodan Milosevic saying in -- in this particular part of the meeting?

 7        A.   Well, it refers to the arguments that I mentioned before.  I

 8     could read this paragraph.

 9        Q.   If you could -- if you could try and summarise the facts so that

10     we don't read in this quite lengthy slab.

11        A.   Yes.  Well, Mr. Milosevic refers to the integrity of the Serbian

12     people.  He says:

13             "We do de facto have that, because objectively and according to

14     all our relations such as political, military, cultural, and educational

15     we have that integrity."

16             Then he goes on to say the important thing at this point is to

17     get that recognised.  And he states that a road which would lead to -- us

18     to de jure recognition leads through a small labyrinth.  We could never

19     allow the change in a de facto situation, but through that small

20     labyrinth, we would achieve sum things, if not in half a year, then in a

21     year, if not an in a year, then two years.  What do we gain?  We gain

22     that we would have fewer casualties, and in that way we would save our

23     people."

24             That was -- he's urging the conclusion of agreement in order to

25     get recognition of what they have obtained already.  He had it recognised

Page 1174

 1     de jure.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Treanor, can I take you to page 96 of the English

 3     translation and page 95 of the B/C/S.  Can you see there Radovan Karadzic

 4     is speaking?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   What is he saying in relation to the Neretva River?

 7        A.   He mentions the Neretva River in the context of some of the

 8     objections that he has to the status of the negotiations, as to the

 9     territories which would be granted to the Bosnian Serbs.

10             If I could just read a bit of what Radovan Karadzic says.

11     "Posavina and Podrinje are disputable."  Posavina is the area along the

12     Sava River, and Podrinje is the area along the Drina River in Bosnia.

13              "Neretva is disputable, but we can live without Neretva.

14     However, we cannot live without Podrinje and Posavina.  Without them we

15     have no chance of establishing the state and integrating in the future."

16        Q.   Can you just tell the Trial Chamber the importance of the

17     Posavina corridor?

18        A.   I think we met the Posavina corridor before as the something --

19     corridor which would link the eastern and western halves of the Bosnian

20     Serb republic.

21        Q.   And I think in answer to Judge Moloto, the Presiding Judge, asked

22     you whether --because you also, I think, mentioned Serbia in relation to

23     your answer, not only was it linking the east and the west, but it was

24     also linking the Serb-held -- the Bosnian Serb-held territory to Serbia;

25     is that correct?

Page 1175

 1        A.   Yes.  It would afford a link from large areas of the Republic of

 2     Serbian Krajina and the western part of Republika Srpska to Serbia via

 3     the eastern half of Republika Srpska.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document, all those pages

 5     that I took Mr. Treanor to be admitted into evidence, please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, that's page 71 and 96?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, of the English translation and

 8     70 in -- no.  70, 95 and 96 of the B/C/S and 71 and 96 of the English

 9     translation.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Those pages are admitted into evidence.  May they

11     please be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That's pages would be Exhibit P205, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have Exhibit number 06673.

15        Q.   Mr. Treanor, were there any more discussions with the FRY

16     leadership in January 1993 about the Vance-Owen Plan?

17        A.   Yes, there were.

18        Q.   When did this occur?

19        A.   On the 21st of January, 1993, there was another meeting of the

20     same body.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go to page 19 and 20 of the English

22     translation and page 21 to 22 of the B/C/S, please.

23        Q.   What was discussed in -- in this meeting?  I'm sorry, again who

24     was in attendance at this meeting?

25        A.   This is another enlarged session of that body, so people who were

Page 1176

 1     not members were also present, including Radovan Karadzic,

 2     Nikola Koljevic, Momcilo Krajisnik, Ratko Mladic, Zdravko Tolimir.

 3        Q.   Again, Mr. Treanor, what was discussed at this meeting in

 4     relation to the Vance Plan?

 5        A.   Well, they discussed further progress in the negotiations which

 6     had taken place between the two meetings we've been discussing, and the

 7     FRY leaders are again encouraging that an agreement be concluded.

 8        Q.   Who is Mr. Vladislav Jovanovic?

 9        A.   Mr. Jovanovic was at this time the Foreign Minister of Serbia.

10     He had been the Foreign Minister of the FRY, and he would again become

11     the Foreign Minister of the FRY.

12        Q.   What did he have to say at this meeting?

13        A.   At this meeting in the passage we're looking at he pointed out

14     another important aspect of the goals they were trying to achieve, not

15     just territory per se, but as he says in the paragraph beginning with

16     "Therefore," I'll just read a bit.

17             "But what is more important is make the territory that we get

18     nationally homogeneous as soon as possible but not by means of ethnic

19     cleansings and so on.  Ethnic cleansing are palm-offs.  So we should use

20     the peacetime process of the exchange of inhabitants, in other words

21     migration and immigration which will flow.  What is important is that

22     life in future Bosnia becomes impossible and that everybody understands

23     that individually -- understands that individually, that they rush off to

24     their original provinces.  This is a strategic goal to which we should

25     aspire and which should be achieved."

Page 1177

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland --

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm sorry, I'm just reviewing

 3     my notes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, would you like the rest of the break to

 5     review your notes?

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, let's do that and come back at a quarter to.

 8     Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Sutherland.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   If we could go to page 22 of the B/C/S and page 20 of the English

14     translation of the document that we were just looking at before the

15     break.

16             Mr. Treanor, does Radovan Karadzic make any observations in

17     relation to what Vladislav Jovanovic was talking about?

18        A.   Yes, he does.

19        Q.   What does he say?

20        A.   Well, in response to an observation at the end of Mr. Jovanovic's

21     speech suggesting that the process that he referred to could be achieved

22     in -- as soon as in a couple of years' time, Dr. Karadzic replies:  "In a

23     year and two months if they would open the towns of Tuzla, Sarajevo, and

24     Zenica," which are towns that had Serbian populations that were under the

25     control of the BH government at this time.

Page 1178

 1        Q.   Does he make any reference to Zvornik?

 2        A.   Yes.  Further down he makes reference to the situation in Zvornik

 3     saying:

 4             "I think that this which Jovanovic is talking about has already

 5     happened to a huge extent.  There was 50-50 of us in Zvornik.  The number

 6     of inhabitants of Zvornik is now the same, approximately 50.000, and they

 7     are all Serbs.  More than 24.000 Serbs from Zenica and Central Bosnia

 8     have arrived and stopped in Zvornik."

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be admitted into

10     evidence.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This page.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Well, pages 20 and 21 and 19 and 20.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Pages 19 and 20 --

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, 20 and 21 of the B/C/S and 19 and 20 of

15     the English translation.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Those pages are admitted into evidence.  May it

17     please be given an exhibit number.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I think it may be a good idea if we

19     could also have the first page of each of those documents so that at

20     least you have some idea as to what document you're looking at.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is true.  Thank you so much.  If we can do

22     that.

23             But now we've admitted so many of these documents without the

24     first pages.  I don't know whether the registrar will be able to identify

25     them.  From the beginning of Mr. Treanor's testimony, we've not been

Page 1179

 1     taking the first pages.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I think it would be a matter of

 3     simply going to the documents which there are only single pages of -- of

 4     lengthy documents and then adding page 1 of each he have those documents

 5     where I haven't actually asked for the original page to be --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is correct.  My question is I don't know

 7     whether the Registry will be able to do that without any help from the

 8     Prosecution.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Certainly, Your Honour.  We will -- we will

10     provide them with the page numbers.  We will review our notes and --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Provide them with page numbers.  I'm sorry if I

13     was unclear.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With my colleague's agreement, I would also

16     suggest that we have in evidence with regard to the pages page 21, only

17     because there is a continuation in terms of what Mr. Karadzic is saying.

18     It's only part of what he's saying, and although they've commented on

19     part of that part, at least we'll have the entire page -- the entire

20     context of which that remark is made, which is one of the things I'd

21     raised as a concern earlier on, and only because of the way the pages are

22     broken up I suggest we also put in page 21.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I have no objections.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May those pages be given an exhibit number, Madam

25     Registrar.

Page 1180

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  So 65 ter number 06673 with English pages 19, 20,

 2     and 21 and B/C/S pages 20 and 21 will been admitted as P226, Your

 3     Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And the first pages.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  And the first pages.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, Ms. Javier has brought to my

 7     attention that it's page 21 and 22 of the B/C/S, not pages 20 and 21.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, you hear that?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  So pages 21 and 22 and page 1

10     of the B/C/S.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             Yes, Madam Sutherland.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:

14        Q.   Mr. Treanor, I want to move along three months to the beginning

15     of April, 1993.

16             Well, sorry, going back to the end of January.  Between January

17     and the beginning of April, how did the negotiations develop thereafter

18     if you could very briefly explain to the Trial Chamber the position.

19        A.   Certain draft agreements were signed by various of the parties

20     in -- to the conflict in BH.

21             At the end of March, three documents were signed by

22     representatives of the parties.  All parties signed, all the documents

23     except for the map, which was not signed by the Bosnian Serb party.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have Rule 65 ter number 02304.01 on

25     the screen, please.  And if I could have -- for the English it's the

Page 1181

 1     second translation that's attached to the e-court Rule 65 ter number.

 2        Q.   Mr. Treanor, this is a transcript of a recording of the 26th

 3     Bosnian Serb Assembly session held in Belica on the 2nd of April, 1993.

 4             If we could go to page 8 of that document of the English

 5     translation and page 6 of the B/C/S.

 6             Did Mr. Karadzic in this Assembly session make reference to the

 7     amount of land that -- that the Bosnian Serbs possessed at that point?

 8        A.   They made reference to the amount of land which the Bosnian Serbs

 9     owned, in his opinion, and contrasted that with the amount of territory

10     they would get according to the maps that had been offered them.  In this

11     -- I would call the Court's attention to that in this passage which is at

12     the end of the second paragraph, the paragraph beginning with "First of

13     all," at the end of -- toward the end of that paragraph he says that:

14             "Although we possess 64 per cent of the land, and as a majority

15     even after the genocide in the Second World War we live on 65 per cent of

16     the territory, the former Bosnia-Herzegovina."

17             When he says "possess" there, he's talking about ownership of the

18     land.  He's not talking about the military front lines at this point, but

19     he believes that the Serbs own 64 per cent of the land and have inhabited

20     65 per cent and then goes on to say that according to the current map, it

21     has been proposed that we live on just 43 per cent of the territory,

22     which is pretty obvious that almost the entire Serbian population would

23     voluntarily go to live in the areas where the Serbs have a majority.  In

24     other words, any Serbs living in the 57 per cent that was not given to

25     the Bosnian Serbs would in his view have moved to the Serbian territory.

Page 1182

 1        Q.   And I think you had said earlier that by the end of December

 2     1992, just prior to the declaration of the end of the war that was issued

 3     by the Bosnian Serbs, they had gained 70 per cent of the territory; is

 4     that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  I believe that's the figure that was given in the Bosnian

 6     Serb Assembly as far as the military control of land was concerned.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be admitted into

 8     evidence, those pages at least, pages 1 and 8 of the English translation

 9     and pages 1 and 6 of the B/C/S.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are so admitted.  May they please be given an

11     exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Those pages will be Exhibit P207, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:

15        Q.   And around this time did the Security Council issue a further

16     Resolution?

17        A.   Yes.  Around this time the Security Council, in fact, issued two

18     more Resolutions in connection with the situation in the former

19     Yugoslavia.

20        Q.   What was the reason for the issuing of the first Resolution?  If

21     I could have Rule 65 ter number 06568 on the screen, please.

22        A.   Well, in this Resolution the Security Council adduced a number of

23     reasons for its action, beginning on the first page, reaffirming, and

24     then in the second paragraph, taking note of a decision of the

25     International Court of Justice in its order of 8 April 1993, calling on

Page 1183

 1     the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to immediately in

 2     pursuance of its undertaking on the convention of prevention of the crime

 3     of genocide of 9 December 1948 to take all measures within its power to

 4     prevent the commission of the crime of genocide.  And then the Security

 5     Council went on to note features of the situation on the ground in BH

 6     which gave a concern at this point, in particular the situation around

 7     the town of Srebrenica.

 8        Q.   Was reference also made to the FRY and the supply of material to

 9     the Bosnian Serbs?

10        A.   Yes.  Among the demands of the Security Council was one that the

11     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and this is in the next page of the

12     English under point 3, the security counsel "Demands that the Federal

13     Republic of Yugoslavia immediately cease the supply of military arms,

14     equipment, and services to the Bosnian Serb paramilitary units in the

15     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

16        Q.   With respect to the reference to paramilitary organs -- units,

17     I'm sorry, the -- were the Bosnian Serb forces recognised by the

18     United Nations Security Council?

19        A.   Well, I'm not sure that the Bosnians -- the Security Council

20     recognised anybody beyond Member States.  They referred to the --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If -- and I believe the witness has now answered

23     the question with regard to the specific matter asked by the Prosecution

24     if the Security Council did not recognise anything other than Member

25     States, and now it goes beyond the purview of his knowledge as to what

Page 1184

 1     the Security Council did.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'll rephrase the question, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question has been answered.

 5        Q.   Sorry.  I will -- can I have a moment, Your Honour.

 6             Your Honour, what's the objection?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection was just that the witness was going

 8     beyond the purview of both his expertise and the question by trying to

 9     explain further, having said that the United Nations recognises Member

10     States only and nothing beyond.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Treanor may be in a position to answer the

12     question as to whether the United Nations Security Council does or does

13     not recognise entities as opposed to Member States.  I'm sure Mr. Treanor

14     can --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But he has answered that.  He said to you that the

16     United Nations recognises Member States only, and he's not aware of

17     anything beyond that that they recognise.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I was going -- I

19     understood the question.  I was going to move on, but I wondered what the

20     objection was.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection was stopping him from going beyond

22     the answer having given the answer.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  But Mr. Guy-Smith rose after he'd answered the

24     question, so I was at a loss to know what the issue was once the question

25     had been answered.

Page 1185

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The issue was once the question had been answered

 2     the witness was carrying on to comment on things that were not part of

 3     the answer -- part of the question.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I may, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 7        Q.   So, Mr. Treanor, if the United Nations Security Council does not

 8     recognise entities, then similarly they would not recognise an army to

 9     that entity; is that correct?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What --

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well --

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'll withdraw the question, Your Honour.  Could

13     I have that document admitted, please.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so admitted.  May it please be given an

15     exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P208, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:

19        Q.   Did the United Nations Security Council impose any sanctions on

20     the FRY and, if so, why?

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter number 06623 on the screen

22     please.

23        A.   At this time the Security Council threatened to take additional

24     measures restricting commerce with the FRY under certain conditions

25     which, in fact, were fulfilled.  In that connection I could direct the

Page 1186

 1     Court's attention to page 3 of the English version of the Resolution.

 2     Paragraph number 10 in which the Security Council decides that the

 3     provisions set forth in paragraphs 12 to 30 below shall, to the extent

 4     that they establish obligations beyond those establish by its earlier

 5     relevant Resolutions, come into force nine days after the date of the

 6     adoption of the present Resolution, unless the Security General has

 7     reported to the Council that the Bosnian Serb party has joined the other

 8     parties in signing the peace plan and in implementing it and that the

 9     Bosnian Serbs have ceased their military attacks.

10        Q.   I suppose then, Mr. Treanor, the record says you said, "unless

11     the Security General," did you mean Secretary-General?

12        A.   Secretary-General.

13        Q.   And did the -- what date was this Security Council Resolution?

14        A.   This Resolution was adopted on the 17th of April, 1993.

15        Q.   And the previous Resolution that we saw, Exhibit P208, do you

16     recall the date of that Resolution?

17        A.   It was adopted on the 16th of April, 1993.

18        Q.   So with respect to the Resolution adopted on the 17th of April,

19     did the Security Council then set out the sanctions which would come into

20     effect nine days after the adoption of the present Resolution?

21        A.   Yes.  Those are set out further below, and reference is made to

22     paragraphs 12 to 30 below which contain restrictions against commerce

23     with the, as it puts it, the United Nations Protected Areas in the

24     Republic of Croatia in those areas of the Republic of Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina under control the Bosnian Serb forces, and then beginning in

Page 1187

 1     paragraph 13 makes reference to restrictions on the -- in relation to the

 2     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, can that document be admitted into

 4     evidence, please.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 6     number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P209, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:

10        Q.   How did the Bosnian Serbs react to this Resolution, the one of

11     the 17th of April?  If could I have Rule 65 ter number 06750 on the

12     screen, please.

13        A.   They did not sign the peace plan.

14        Q.   Did the Belgrade leadership correspond in any way with the

15     Bosnian Serbs in April 1993?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The document we have on the screen at the moment is the minutes

18     of the 29th Bosnian Serb Assembly session held on the 25th and 26th of

19     April in Bijeljina.

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   Who else was present besides the Bosnian Serbs?  Did -- was

22     anyone from Belgrade present?

23        A.   Yes, and during the course of the session Vladislav Jovanovic

24     arrived.  He was at this time again the Foreign Minister of the FRY.

25        Q.   And what was the purpose of him being at the meeting?

Page 1188

 1        A.   He brought with him a letter from Dobrica Cosic,

 2     Slobodan Milosevic, and Momir Bulatovic encouraging the Bosnian Serbs to

 3     accept the peace plan.

 4        Q.   And what was the position taken by the Bosnian Serbs?

 5        A.   The Assembly, in response to the letter, expressing its surprise

 6     did two things.  It took a vote on the plan which, according to the

 7     minutes of the meeting --

 8        Q.   If we could go to page 2 of the --

 9        A.   It would be on the next page of the English yes.

10        Q.   Page 2 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.

11        A.   Toward the bottom of that page.  Now the middle.  A short

12     paragraph is there, and I would draw the Court's attention to that.  It

13     simply notes that all 73 deputies present voted against accepting the

14     Vance-Owen maps.  Then the second thing the Assembly did is described at

15     the bottom of the page where they -- it's mentioned that they adopted a

16     decision to hold a referendum in the RS on specifically that issue.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be admitted into

18     evidence, pages 1, 2, and 3 of the English translation and page 1 and 2

19     of the B/C/S.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Those pages are admitted.  May they please be

21     given an exhibit number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P210, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes --

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the whole document is only three

25     pages in B/C/S and in English, so --

Page 1189

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, you've given us three pages in English

 2     already.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  So for completeness, can the whole

 4     document of the B/C/S be admitted, please.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, will you please do that.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   So the Bosnian Serbs decided to hold a referendum among its

10     citizens on the question of the Vance-Owen Plan.  What was the FRY

11     leadership's response to this position that RS, the Republika Srpska,

12     adopted?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have Rule 65 ter number 02306.01 on the

14     screen, please.  And I need the second document which is attached to that

15     Rule 65 ter number in e-court, and so it's not the -- I'm advised that

16     it's not the document marked with the ERN number with "-EDT" at the end

17     of it.  It's the other one.

18        Q.   Mr. Treanor, this is the transcript of the 30th Bosnian Serb

19     assembly session held Jahorina on the 5th and 6th of May 1993.

20        A.   That's correct.  It's the 30th session, and not the 39th session

21     as described in the translation.

22        Q.   Who was in attendance at this meeting from the FRY leadership?

23        A.   Present at this meeting were the same people that signed the

24     letter that reference has been made to, that is Dobrica Cosic,

25     Slobodan Milosevic, and Momir Bulatovic.

Page 1190

 1        Q.   Did all three of these gentlemen speak at the meeting?

 2        A.   Yes, they did.

 3        Q.   What did Dobrica Cosic say?

 4        A.   He gave a short speech.

 5        Q.   So first of all what -- what -- why did the Serb leadership

 6     attend this Bosnian Serb Assembly session?

 7        A.   Their purpose was the same as the letter which was to encourage

 8     the Bosnian Serbs to accept the plan which Radovan Karadzic had

 9     provisionally done a few days before at a meeting in Athens, but only

10     provisionally.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have page 26 of the English

12     translation and page 12 of the B/C/S, please.

13        Q.   What did -- what did Dobrica Cosic have to say at this Assembly

14     session?

15        A.   Well, he encouraged acceptance of the plan, and he noted the --

16     that at this point the Serbs were at a turning point in their history.

17     If I could direct the Court's attention to the fourth paragraphs --

18     fourth paragraph of his speech beginning with.

19             "We are truly at a turning point in our history.  That historic

20     turning point has often been like a temptation in our past.  We have

21     shared a common goal for two centuries, the struggle for liberation and

22     the union of the Serbian people.  This is the seventh war to be waged

23     with this goal."

24        Q.   And what did Slobodan Milosevic put forth at this meeting?  And

25     if we could go to page 163 of the English translation and 78 of the

Page 1191

 1     B/C/S, please.

 2        A.   He also encouraged the Assembly to accept the plan and also

 3     addressed the issue of the unity of the Serbs.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could just pause there.  If Your Honours

 5     wish to see where Slobodan Milosevic begins his speech, it's at page 157

 6     of the English translation and page 76 of the B/C/S.

 7        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Treanor.  Can you continue.

 8        A.   I would draw the Court's attention in that connection to two

 9     passages on page 163 of the English translation.  The first passage

10     begins on the line starting with question mark use, and the first

11     sentence reads:

12             "Above all the question now arises as to how we shall link the

13     economies of the provinces that are ours.  Since you are deputies you

14     probably know that we have established a single-payment transfer system,

15     that we are moving towards a single currency, that we are moving towards

16     every possible link and transaction between the economies, that we are

17     moving towards a stabilised, a whole single economic areas where the

18     Serbian lands here will be from the aspect of the economy and culture and

19     education and everything else.  Karadzic spoke of the same primer, et

20     cetera.  Therefore, not a lot of thought is required in order to envisage

21     the direction that this process -- that process needs to go in."

22        Q.   You mentioned two paragraphs.  What was the second section on

23     that page?

24        A.   Well, a little bit below he continues:

25             "Finally I should like to say to you don't talk to us who have

Page 1192

 1     been worrying about all your problems all this time, about feeling

 2     abandoned.  We didn't just sit -- sit about worrying about them but

 3     resolved them and helped with all our might and with everything that we

 4     could at the cost of great deprivation to a Serbia of 10 million, and we

 5     shall continue to help you.  There's no question about that.  But don't

 6     tell us that you feel abandoned, because that is incorrect."

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may those documents -- those pages

 8     be admitted into evidence?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are so --

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That's page -- sorry, page 126 and 163 of the

11     English translation and pages 112 and 78 of the B/C/S.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess you also referred the Chamber to page 157

13     for the Milosevic's speech.  Don't you want that in?

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That's -- Your Honour, that's where -- the page

15     where Slobodan Milosevic's name is first mentioned, but we don't seek to

16     have that page into evidence.  It was simply if you wanted to see on the

17     screen where his name was first mentioned as he began the speech.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Sutherland.  Those

19     pages are therefore admitted into evidence.  May they please be given an

20     exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P211, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And, Your Honour, we will have a revised page 1

24     of the English translation where it says the 39th session will be amended

25     to the 30th session.

Page 1193

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But -- yeah, thank you so much for doing that, but

 2     what is the status of that translation?  Is it --

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's a draft translation, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's a draft translation.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  By CLSS.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By CLSS.  Thank you.  Could you ask them to revise

 7     it, please.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what did the Bosnian Serbs do as a result of the FRY

10     leadership's pleas?

11        A.   Well, they maintained their position and -- they being the

12     Assembly maintained its position and went ahead with the plebiscite that

13     it -- they'd already called for and scheduled it for the middle of May,

14     and it was, in fact, held and rejected the plan.

15        Q.   Did the Security Council take any measures in relation to the

16     situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina after the expiration of the deadline they

17     had imposed in the earlier Resolution?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter number 06622 on the screen,

20     please.

21        Q.   What measures did the Security Council take and when?

22        A.   Well, on the 6th of May, 1993, it adopted Resolution 824 in which

23     it extended the --

24        Q.   If we could go to --

25        A.   -- idea of safe areas to cities and towns in BH beyond

Page 1194

 1     Srebrenica.

 2        Q.   Could we go to page 2 of the English translation and page 3 of

 3     the B/C/S.

 4        A.   I would call the Court's attention to paragraph 3 in that

 5     connection, which I will refrain from reading, but it does make reference

 6     to the -- the capital of BH and other threatened areas, in particular,

 7     the towns of Tuzla, Zepa, Bihac, as well as Gorazde.

 8        Q.   The capital of BH being Sarajevo?

 9        A.   Yes.  They should all be treated as safe areas.

10        Q.   And did it make any declarations in relation to these safe areas?

11     I mean further declarations?

12        A.   Yes, in paragraph 4 it declared what should be observed in the

13     safe areas, for instance, A, the immediate cessation of armed attacks or

14     any hostile act against these safe areas and the withdrawal of all

15     Bosnian Serb military or paramilitary units from these towns to a

16     distance wherefrom they cease to constitute a menace to their security

17     and that of their inhabitance to be monitored by United Nations military

18     observers, and it goes on.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be admitted into

20     evidence, please.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

22     please be given an exhibit number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P212, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Madam Sutherland.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:

Page 1195

 1        Q.   Mr. Treanor, you discussed earlier in your evidence a meeting, a

 2     Bosnian Serb Assembly session that was held on the 5th and 6th of May

 3     1993 in Jahorina.  Did Slobodan Milosevic, who was in attendance at that

 4     meeting, did he report back to the FRY leadership about the meeting that

 5     was held in Jahorina on the 5th and 6th of May?

 6        A.   Yes, he did.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have Rule 65 ter number 06980.01.

 8     This is the redacted version of that exhibit.  And if we could have page

 9     29 of the B/C/S and page 31 of the English translation.

10        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what is this document?

11        A.   This document represents shorthand notes of a session of the

12     Supreme Defence Council of the FRY held on the 2nd of June, 1993.

13        Q.   And what did Slobodan Milosevic say in relation to the

14     discussions that he'd had with the Serbs at the Assembly session?

15        A.   He told the people present at the meeting certain things that he

16     had told the Bosnian Serb leaders, and in that connection I would draw

17     the Court's attention to page 31 of the translation, which is page 29 in

18     the original.

19        Q.   Mr. Treanor, are you able to tell the Court what Milosevic said?

20        A.   Yes.  At the top of the page.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we go to the top of the page in -- in the

22     English translation, please.

23        Q.   Now, reading from -- Mr. Treanor, you can see the redacted text

24     on the screen.

25        A.   Yes, beginning with "I used to tell them," that is the Bosnian

Page 1196

 1     Serb leaders, "if our economy fails, who will you rely on?  They could

 2     have resolved the problem by means of the solution that has been offered.

 3     They could have accepted it," that is the peace plan, "which would have

 4     annulled the second round of sanctions.  The sanctions would have failed

 5     they would not have been implemented while the Muslim-Croat conflict in

 6     Central Bosnia would have ruined the plan.  Any literate man can see it."

 7        Q.   And what, in your view, did Slobodan Milosevic -- what was the

 8     reference to, "If we economically collapse, who will you lean on?"  What

 9     do you understand that to mean?

10        A.   He's referring to the Bosnian Serbs.

11        Q.    "If we," being the FRY, "economically collapse."

12        A.   Yes.  "If our economy fails, the FRY, who will you, the Bosnian

13     Serbs, rely on?"

14        Q.   I take you now to a few months after that date.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, can that page be

16     admitted into evidence, please.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The page is admitted into evidence.  May it please

18     be given an exhibit number.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Page 1 and page 31 of the English translation

20     and page 1 and page 29 of the B/C/S.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Those pages.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Those pages will be Exhibit P213, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:

25        Q.   Mr. Treanor, do you infer from this comment, "if we economically

Page 1197

 1     collapse, who will you lean on," that the Bosnian Serbs had been up until

 2     that point relying on the FRY lead -- the FRY?

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The document speaks for itself.  The statement

 4     speaks for itself.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I withdraw my question, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Mr. Treanor, did the FRY continue to support the RS military, the

 7     Republika Srpska military?  If I could have 65 ter number

 8     [overlapping speakers] --

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   -- 02144.01 on the screen, please.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  021001?

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  02144.01.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you say that again please, ma'am.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  02144.01.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, for the record that's already

17     admitted as Exhibit P200.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Oh, thank you.

19             Except that only certain pages were admitted --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- when the document was last used, and --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, as I see it, Exhibit 200 doesn't have the

23     .01.  It's just 02144, page 354.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it does have .01 at the end of it.

25     P200.  The Rule 65 ter number is the same as this one.  Back when we

Page 1198

 1     discussed it before, only page 354 was admitted into evidence, the

 2     statement by General Gvero, the one page of his statement.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Okay.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I withdraw my last question.

 5        Q.   Mr. Treanor, in relation to this document, as you know it's the

 6     transcript of the continuation of the 34th session of the Bosnian Serb

 7     Assembly held in Jahorina over quite a number of dates.  Did

 8     Radovan Karadzic make any reference to the strategic goals in this

 9     Assembly session?

10        A.   Yes, he did.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we go to page 14 to 15 of the English

12     translation and pages 13 to 14 of the B/C/S, please.

13        Q.   What did Dr. Karadzic say in that regard?

14        A.   In that regard I would draw the Court's attention to the

15     paragraph toward the bottom of the page beginning with "Strategic goals."

16     That paragraph reads:

17             "Strategic goals adopted by this Assembly have been or will be

18     achieved to the fullest extent, just to remind those who do not know it.

19     This Assembly reached strategic goals of Serb people, which have become,

20     in a certain way, our tasks, our obligation to realise them, but those

21     were the goals we aimed at and the goals we aim at now to achieve

22     whenever it would be possible."

23             Then he goes on as, I would call the Court's attention, to

24     describe each of the goals.  Going over to the next page.

25        Q.   And this is in August 1993; is that correct?

Page 1199

 1        A.   Yes.  This speech was actually given on the first day of the

 2     session, on the 27th of August, 1993.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may those pages be admitted into

 4     evidence as part as P200.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are so admitted.  May they please be given an

 6     exhibit number.  Oh, as part of 200?  Okay they will go in as part of

 7     200.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   Mr. Treanor, in your review of documentation, have you viewed any

10     correspondence between the Bosnian Serb political leadership and General

11     Momcilo Perisic?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter number 00599 on the screen,

14     please.  It's a one-page document in B/C/S and English.

15        Q.   What is this document and when is it dated?

16        A.   This document is a letter from Momcilo Krajisnik, who is the

17     president of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, to General Momcilo Perisic, dated

18     27 September 1993.

19        Q.   And what is -- what is the substance of the letter?

20        A.   Well, the letter refers to a meeting in Belgrade and a telephone

21     conversation, a conversation -- the telephone conversation also took

22     place on the 27th of September, and it goes on to refer to assistance.

23             "The assistance would be sent to the Sarajevo area, because in

24     the coming two-year period the battle for our part of Sarajevo is

25     impending."

Page 1200

 1             Then he goes on to thank General Perisic.

 2             "General Perisic, you have done a lot for these people.  We are

 3     now in such a situation that we have to ask for help, but the time will

 4     come when we will be able to repay the debt."

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document admitted?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The exhibit is admitted into evidence.  May it

 7     please be given an exhibit number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P214, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:

11        Q.   Mr. Treanor, did the FRY continue to provide military assistance

12     to the Bosnian Serbs?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Have you seen any new documents that reflect the ultimate goal of

15     the FRY leadership?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Did General Perisic have knowledge of this goal?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, at this time I would ask to go into

20     closed session to deal with a document that's the subject of protective

21     measures.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you want closed session or private session?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It needs to be closed session, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

25 [Closed session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

Page 1201

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in closed session.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 3             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what was the goal of the FRY leadership?

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter number 09190.01 on the

 7     screen, please.

 8        A.   That goal is stated a number of times in the document we're

 9     looking at.

10        Q.   First, what is this document?

11        A.   This document is a directive for the use of the Yugoslav army, RS

12     army in the Serb Armija -- army of Krajina.  It was issued by president

13     Zoran Lilic on 14 November 1993.

14        Q.   In what capacity did Zoran Lilic issue this decision -- this

15     directive?

16        A.   As president of the FRY.

17        Q.   Can you please continue.  I -- I interrupted you to get the --

18     the date of the document and the name of the document.

19        A.   The goal is referred to a number of times in this document.  In

20     that connection I would call the Court's attention to the first paragraph

21     of the body of the document.

22        Q.   And what is the goal?

23        A.   Toward the end of that paragraph reference is made to "...two new

24     Serbian states which are determined to fight the war imposed on them in

25     order to defend their republics and establish conditions for the creation

Page 1202

 1     of a single state of the Serbian people."

 2        Q.   You said that this goal was referred to a number of times in this

 3     document.

 4        A.   Yes.  In that connection I could call the Court's attention --

 5        Q.   Go to page 7 of the English translation and page 7 of the B/C/S.

 6        A.   Under Roman II, use of armed forces, 1, General objectives.  The

 7     second paragraph states:

 8             "Defend territorial integrity of the Serbian States west of the

 9     Drina and Danube rivers and FRY, protect Serbian people from genocide,

10     liberate parts of Serbian territories with Serbian majority, create

11     conditions for the establishment of a single state of the Serbian people,

12     prevent creation of Greater Croatia and a compact Islamic state on the

13     territory of the former Yugoslavia."

14        Q.   If I could take you to page 9 of the English translation and page

15     8 of the B/C/S.

16        A.   Yes.  I would call the Court's attention to the middle of the

17     page, the paragraph beginning "In the second," which word is bolded.  The

18     second referring to the second stage of operations.

19             "In the second, after the beginning of the all-out HV aggression

20     on the RSK and armed rebellion in crisis regions of the FRY, by the

21     unified use of armed forces of the Serbian people crush and defeat enemy

22     forces and create conditions for establishing a single state of the

23     Serbian people."

24        Q.   And then if we could go to page 12 of the English translation and

25     also page 12 of the B/C/S.

Page 1203

 1        A.   At the very bottom of the page under IV, combat operations

 2     support, 1, moral guidance and psychological support.

 3             "Ensure that all activities on boosting, maintaining, and

 4     reinforcing combat morale of the army proceed from the firm determination

 5     of the state and political leadership of the Serbian people to protect

 6     the people, defend territory and create conditions for the formation of a

 7     single state of the Serbian people.  Pursuant to this, intensify

 8     information and propaganda activities and build united public support."

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may this document be admitted into

10     evidence.  It's -- it's quite lengthy, so I would ask that the pages that

11     I have taken Mr. Treanor to be admitted, and that is -- well, perhaps so

12     that Your Honours can put it into context, the first 12 pages of the

13     document in English --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But why the first 12 pages?  I understand context

15     where I -- why do we need so many pages for context?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Well, you don't, Your Honour.  It's just that I

17     took Mr. Treanor to pages 1, 2, 7, 9 and 12.  1, 2, 7, 9, and 12, so I

18     took him to 5 of the first 12 pages.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document -- those pages are admitted into

20     evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, since the document was used in

22     closed session, should it be --

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And under seal.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Under seal.  Thank you.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P215 under seal, Your

Page 1204

 1     Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, is that just the pages I took

 4     Mr. Treanor to, or is it the first 12 pages of the document?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The first 12 pages.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

 7             Your Honour, we can go back into open session.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber move into open session.

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:

13        Q.   Mr. Treanor, did the Republika Srpska or the Bosnian Serb

14     leadership continue to be satisfied with what they had achieved on the

15     territory?

16        A.   Well, no.

17        Q.   Why was this?

18        A.   They were not satisfied.  The Bosnian Serb was not satisfied,

19     which is why they'd rejected the Vance Plan.  Negotiations did continue.

20     A plan had been formulated in the fall of 1993, known as the

21     Owen-Stoltenberg Plan.  That was signed by the Bosnian Serbs and the

22     Bosnian Croats but not by the Bosnian Muslims, and subsequent to that,

23     negotiations continued.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have Rule 65 ter number 02336 on the

25     screen, please.

Page 1205

 1        Q.   This is a transcript of the 37th session of the Bosnian Serb

 2     Assembly held in Pale on the 10th of January, 1994.  At this session does

 3     Radovan Karadzic make explicit reference to the strategic goals?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   If I could take you to page 108 of the English translation and

 6     page 80 of the B/C/S.

 7        A.   Yes.  I would call the Court's attention to a short passage in

 8     the middle -- toward the beginning -- toward the top of that page.  The

 9     line begins with "Themselves as Yugoslavs," and then continues:

10             "Believe me we are the winners so far compared to what we could

11     have got from it.  We could have got the separation.  The first strategic

12     goal was separation, not occupation of 60 per cent of it.  The second

13     strategic goal was to get the land in one piece interconnected, and we

14     got the corridor.  So that was the strategic goal.  As the opposing

15     faction, we won our state and that was accepted.  And secondly, as

16     winners we said, 'Fine.  You want 33.3 per cent, we will determine which

17     33.3 per cent you can get.'"

18        Q.   What was Radovan Karadzic referring to when he said that?  He was

19     referring to the state of the negotiations at that particular time,

20     emphasising what they could achieve at that particular time.

21     Unfortunately, the negotiations did not result in -- in any agreement at

22     this time or indeed for months and months to come.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that page be admitted into

24     evidence.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's so admitted.  May it please be given an

Page 1206

 1     exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P216, Your Honours.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, pages 1 and 108 of the English

 4     translation and pages 1 and 80 of the B/C/S.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  Thank you very much.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 7        Q.   Mr. Treanor, I want to move on four months into April 1994.  At

 8     this time did the Belgrade leadership want to -- to freeze the combat

 9     activity in Bosnia-Herzegovina and, if so, why?

10        A.   The FRY leadership?

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   Yes.  The FRY leadership continued to favour the conclusion of

13     peace.

14        Q.   Why was that?

15        A.   Well, for much the same reasons that had been adduced before,

16     that is, they thought the important thing was to get what had been

17     achieved recognised by the international community, and they were also

18     suffering under the sanctions at this time.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter number 06639.01, which is

20     the redacted version of this document, on the screen, please.

21        Q.   Mr. Treanor, we can see that this is the stenographic notes of

22     the 20th session of the SDC.

23             What was discussed at this session in relation to Bosnia and

24     Herzegovina in relation to what you have just discussed?

25        A.   Well, certainly the points that I just mentioned were discussed

Page 1207

 1     at this session.

 2        Q.   If I could -- if we could go to page 6 of the English translation

 3     and page 4 of the B/C/S.

 4             Mr. Treanor, did General Perisic have anything to say at this

 5     meeting --

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   -- about what you've just discussed?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   What did he say?

10        A.   He -- he addressed one of the points I mentioned, noting that at

11     the bottom of the page, the paragraph beginning with "Fourth."

12             "Fourth, our chances to control the crisis are based on the

13     following: that we continue disrupting their scenario," that is the

14     enemy's scenario, "as we have done so far.  We have almost completely

15     realised our objectives with weapons.  We must maintain this and with

16     wise politics before the international community manage somehow to have

17     it all endorsed."

18        Q.   And Slobodan Milosevic make any -- have any discussion on these

19     points?

20        A.   Yes, he did.

21        Q.   If we could go to page 7 of the English translation and page 8 of

22     the B/C/S.

23        A.   Those pages do not correspond.

24        Q.   I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  Before we go to Mr. Milosevic, there's

25     another -- there's another portion of these -- this session that I'd like

Page 1208

 1     to take you to where Mr. Perisic is speaking, and it's on page 7 of the

 2     English translation and page 5 of the B/C/S.

 3             Mr. Treanor, what does Mr. Perisic say in relation to the -- the

 4     issue of Gorazde?

 5        A.   Just below --

 6        Q.   Sorry, if I could take you to the -- the paragraph starting "The

 7     measures which in our opinion ought to be undertaken."

 8        A.   Yes.  At this portion he's recommending certain measures, and

 9     reference to Gorazde is made among them.

10        Q.   What are the measures that he is discussing?

11        A.   Well, in the paragraph beginning with "The measures, which in our

12     opinion, ought to be taken," he mentions developing a broad diplomatic

13     activity with all participants of the Yugoslav crisis, with the objective

14     of crowning the war results and verifying them by international

15     recognition.

16             In the second paragraph he recommends approaching countries and

17     individuals who favour us, saying "we should encourage import of weapons

18     and military equipment which in event of the escalation of the conflict,

19     we would use for inflicting the greatest possible losses on the enemy,

20     especially hitting air targets because anti-aircraft defence is far

21     weaker than it should be."

22             And the next brief paragraph he addresses Gorazde mentioning that

23     the bombing of positions in the Gorazde sector ought to be used for

24     strengthening the unity of all forces defending the national interest --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel slow down, please.  -- reading

Page 1209

 1     for the interpreters, please.

 2             THE WITNESS:  The bombing of positions in the Gorazde sector

 3     ought to be used for strengthening the unity of all forces defending the

 4     national interest of the Serbian and Montenegrin peoples.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that a convenient point, madam?

 6             SUTHERLAND:  Yes, it is, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will take a break and come back at 12.30.

 8     Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Sutherland.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Mr. Treanor, before the break we were discussing the stenographic

14     notes of the 20th session of the SDC.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we have page 7 of the English translation

16     and page 8 of the B/C/S, please.

17        Q.   What did Slobodan Milosevic say at this meeting in regard to the

18     points that you were discussing before the break?

19        A.   Well, he advanced the idea that he thought it would be a good

20     idea to freeze military operations in Bosnia-Herzegovina at this point.

21        Q.   Can I take you to the paragraph beginning "Our first-rate goal at

22     the moment --"  starting "As for this situation..."

23        A.   Yes, I see that.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Registry have informed me that we're

25     actually on page 12 of the English translation.

Page 1210

 1        Q.   What does he say in relation to the territory that the forces

 2     control at the moment or back in April 1994?

 3        A.   Well, in this paragraph he notes that at this point they were in

 4     a situation when "...our forces control 72 per cent of the territory,"

 5     and he thought that would create a very good position for finalising

 6     negotiations.

 7        Q.   Does he make any mention in this session to the Drina -- to the

 8     Drina River?

 9        A.   Yes, he does.  A little bit further below in that same paragraph

10     he makes reference to the Drina.

11        Q.   And briefly, what does say about that?

12        A.   He says:

13             "I believe that we are moving toward a solution in general cease

14     of hostilities on the establishment of the front demarcation of the -- of

15     the front demarcation line, including the right Drina bank near Gorazde

16     because it would not be in our interest to abandon the right bank of the

17     Drina."

18        Q.   And does he say what the political solution has to be based on?

19        A.   Yes.  He sees as part of the overall solution at this point the

20     lifting of sanctions against the FRY.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may those pages that I've taken

22     Mr. Treanor to be admitted into evidence.  That is pages 1, 2, 6, and 12

23     of the English translation and 1, 4, 5, 8, and 9 of the B/C/S.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Those pages are admitted into evidence.  May they

25     please be given an exhibit number.

Page 1211

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, 12 and 13 of the English translation.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Those pages will be Exhibit P217, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   You mentioned a moment ago that it was Slobodan Milosevic's

 6     position that they -- that the Bosnian Serbs should freeze the combat

 7     activity.  What was -- what was the Bosnian Serbs' position in respect of

 8     that?  Did they agree?

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 02150.01 on the

10     screen, please.

11        A.   Not at this point at which -- during which negotiations were

12     still proceeding.

13        Q.   If I can take you to the document that's on the screen now.  It's

14     the minutes of the 40th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly held in

15     Brcko on the 10th of May, 1994.

16             Did Radovan Karadzic make reference to the strategic goals during

17     this session?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we have page 41 of the English translation

19     and page 37 of the B/C/S.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   I'm sorry, I seem to have directed you to the wrong page.

22        A.   I think it's 36 in the English -- I'm sorry, 41, which is 36 in

23     the original.

24        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber what Karadzic said at that session

25     in relation to the strategic goals?

Page 1212

 1        A.   Yes.  I direct the Court's attention to the first full paragraph

 2     in the English translation, and the line beginning with "percentage."  He

 3     says:

 4             "We have to get out to get the state which we would verify.  We

 5     have to end this war as soon as possible, and believe me, we often have

 6     the difficult discussion and conversations with our army.  There is no

 7     pay that we can take the whole Bosnia.  I don't want to tell you what the

 8     economy we need for such project.  It is not the strategic goal of this

 9     Assembly.  The goal is to separate ourselves.  We did not say, then, how

10     much a percentage, nor did we outline the borders.  But we said we wanted

11     to separate, and strategic goals would be territorial connection with the

12     Drina River, Neretva River, sea, Sarajevo, Sava River, Una River, et

13     cetera."

14        Q.   And at that stage of proceedings in May 1994, what -- where were

15     the negotiations at?

16        A.   They were more or less at a standstill at this point.

17        Q.   And why was that?

18        A.   Well, the previous plans had been adopted, had been accepted now

19     by one side, now another, and another agreement accepted by different

20     side but rejected by another.  So everyone had stated their positions at

21     this point and were sticking to them.

22             At this point in the spring of 1994, the so-called Contact Group

23     was formed to try to get the process going again.  The Contact Group was

24     a group of states including Russia, the United States, and some of the EU

25     countries to try to break the logjam, if you will, that had occurred in

Page 1213

 1     the ICFY process, that is the process that was under the auspices of the

 2     Conference on the Former Yugoslavia.

 3        Q.   What was the percentage of the territory that the Bosnian Serbs

 4     were being offered at this time?

 5        A.   Well, the Contact Group was about to offer them a map that would

 6     give them 49 per cent of the territory.

 7        Q.   And you had made mention earlier that they had achieved through

 8     their combat forces 70 per cent of the territory; is that correct?

 9        A.   Right.  I think that we just saw someone saying even 72 per cent

10     by the spring of 1994.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may the pages that I've taken

12     Mr. Treanor be admitted into evidence?  That's page 1 and 41 of the

13     English translation and page 1 and 37 of the B/C/S, please.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are so admitted.  May they please be given an

15     exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit 212 -- 218, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:

19        Q.   Now I'd like to take you to the middle of the year 1994.  Did the

20     Bosnian Serb leadership have further discussions with the FRY leadership

21     re: The Contact Group plan?

22        A.   Yes, they did.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have Rule 65 ter number 02151.01.

24        Q.   Mr. Treanor, this is a document -- a transcript of the 42nd

25     Bosnian Serb Assembly session held in Pale on the 18th and 19th of July,

Page 1214

 1     1994.  Who was in attendance at this Assembly session from the FRY

 2     leadership?

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, I withdraw that question.

 4        A.   I don't think anyone from the leadership was there, the FRY

 5     leadership.

 6        Q.   In relation to the further discussions that the FRY leadership

 7     had with the Bosnian Serbs about the Contact Group plan, when did that

 8     occur?

 9        A.   There had been a meeting early in the morning of the 18th of

10     July.

11        Q.   Do you -- are you aware of what was discussed at that meeting?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry, are we referring to a meeting wherein

14     there was a document?  A document -- that meeting was documented or was

15     this a chitchat over coffee?  I'm not sure exactly where we are.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The document that's on the screen is the

17     transcript of the 42nd Bosnian Serb Assembly session.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's correct, but the witness then said there

19     had been a meeting also early that morning.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  I'm just about to ask a follow-up

21     question, Your Honour, in relation to how he knows of that meeting.  May

22     I proceed?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, you may, ma'am.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:

25        Q.   Mr. Treanor, how do you know there was a meeting at 4.00 a.m.?

Page 1215

 1        A.   Momcilo Krajisnik refers to that meeting during this meeting.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have page 28 of the English

 3     translation and page 115 of the B/C/S on the screen, please.

 4        Q.   What does Momcilo Krajisnik say at the Assembly in relation to

 5     the meeting that was had at 4.00 a.m. in the morning?

 6        A.   There are two paragraphs on the page we're looking at that relate

 7     to that meeting.  At the top of the page Mr. Krajisnik said:

 8             "We'd had discussions with representatives of Serbia and

 9     Montenegro until 4.00 this morning.  This is not a secret at all.  They

10     think that we have to accept it.  We said, we do not have to.  We cannot

11     accept it.  We led the way for our people, and we will lead them as long

12     as we could.  When we cannot, then Kecmanovic will come in," he is

13     another Serbian politician, "and let him take the lead and sign it then,

14     if the people accept it.  General Perisic was there, as well as our

15     General Mladic, Tolimir.  Everyone in our delegation said that we did not

16     accept it.  None of us said that this could be.  But you should

17     understand that we have to find a way - it is not enough that we just say

18     no, and we do not care about it anymore.  There is no we do not care.  We

19     have to win.  We want a state.  We do not want half the Serbs dead.  I am

20     not afraid of their bombing.  They will not bomb.  We have to find a way,

21     have to continue the negotiations."

22             And below he says a little bit more about the meeting, in

23     relation to the meeting, two paragraphs below that beginning with:

24             "Chairman, I will try to be as much open as I can, though it is

25     not correct that I am this much open.  We have problems in getting

Page 1216

 1     supplies from Serbia because of poor resources.  I will not say whether

 2     this is on purpose or not.  I know that all the resources are used up,

 3     and we can by no means not to talk with Serbia, nor would it be good.  We

 4     went to talk.  It is true that Serbia and Montenegro, Mr. Bulatovic and

 5     Mr. Milosevic were there.  They presented a complete picture.  We said

 6     that everything was like that, the partisans and people who fought

 7     between '41 and '45, they fought without a single bullet and without

 8     weapons.  We will fight against the Muslims, and we'll snatch their

 9     weapons.  We cannot accept this because this is a unitary Bosnia.  Our

10     standpoint was clear."

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that page of that document be

12     admitted into evidence, please.  That is page 1 and page 28 of the

13     English translation and page 1 and page 115 of the B/C/S.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Those pages are admitted into evidence.  May they

15     please be given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P219, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:

19        Q.   Shortly after that meeting did the Bosnian Serb leadership issue

20     a declaration of their objectives regarding the Contact Group plan

21     negotiations?

22        A.   Yes, they did.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 02153 on the

24     screen, please.

25        Q.   When did they do this?

Page 1217

 1        A.   I believe the original declaration was adopted at the 42nd

 2     session that we just considered, and they expanded on that declaration,

 3     adopting what they call explanations that were to be part of the

 4     declaration at the next session, the 43rd session.

 5        Q.   If we could go to page 5 of the English translation and page 6 of

 6     the B/C/S, please.  And were the -- the explanations read into the

 7     record.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And can you please summarise the statement of reasons for the

10     Court.  What were they saying in their -- the statement of reasons that

11     was to be attached to the declaration?

12        A.   Yes.  Very briefly, they -- the Bosnian Serb Assembly offered to

13     continue negotiations on the basis of the Contact Group plan, and under

14     point 2 I would point out that they state:

15             "In the belief that the international community will ensure that

16     the following shall be achieved through these negotiations: A, further

17     adjustments to the map; B, demarcation in the city of Sarajevo and the

18     province of Sarajevo; C, a solution for access to the sea for

19     Republika Srpska; D, the exercise of the right of peoples to

20     self-determination, including the right of linking up as a state with

21     neighbouring states; and, E, an agreement on the cessation of

22     hostilities, implementation of the plan, and lifting sanctions.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may those pages be admitted into

24     evidence.  That is pages 1 and 5 of the English translation and pages 1

25     and 6 of the B/C/S.

Page 1218

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are so admitted.  They may be given an

 2     exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  They will be Exhibit P220, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   Following this statement of reasons and the declaration, did the

 7     FRY leadership assert any pressure on the Bosnian Serb leadership to

 8     accept the Contact Group plan?

 9        A.   Yes, they did.

10        Q.   What kind of pressure?

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have Rule 65 ter number 06828 on the

12     screen, please.

13        Q.   Go ahead.

14        A.   At the beginning of August, Slobodan Milosevic issued a public

15     statement in connection with that matter, and the FRY government made a

16     decision, which was also made public.

17        Q.   What was the public statement that Milosevic issued?

18        A.   In a statement published in the Belgrade press on the 5th of

19     August, he said, among other things, that they, the Bosnian Serbs --

20        Q.   I'm sorry, if we could go to page 4 and 5 of the English

21     translation.  It's on page 1 of the B/C/S.  It's the article on the

22     right-hand side of the page, top right-hand side of the page.

23             Go on, Mr. Treanor.

24        A.   In the paragraph toward the middle of the page beginning with

25     "They reject a peace," he said:

Page 1219

 1             "They reject a peace in a moment when they have a recognised

 2     Republika Srpska which encompasses half of the territory of the former

 3     Bosnia and Herzegovina, and by accepting peace sanctions would be lifted

 4     for those without whom they would not even exist."

 5             And he goes on to say something about the measures they're going

 6     to take in view of the situation, which is on the next page, toward the

 7     very end of the statement.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if pages 4 and 5 of that document

 9     could be admitted into evidence.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are so admitted.  May they please be given an

11     exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  They will be Exhibit P221, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:

15        Q.   What are the measures that are going to be taken in -- in view of

16     the situation?

17        A.   Well, as I mentioned, the federal government adopted a decision

18     on the 4th of August, which was published in the press on the 5th of

19     August.

20        Q.   And, if I understood you, then the measures were going to be that

21     they were going to sever relations; is that right?

22        A.   I didn't say that yet.

23        Q.   Was that -- what was their position?

24        A.   Well, the -- a statement was issued at --

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, if I could -- if we could -- no,

Page 1220

 1     sorry.  I apologise, Your Honour.  Could I have 65 ter number 09175 on

 2     the screen, please.

 3        Q.   What measures did the FRY leadership take in relation to the

 4     Republika Srpska at this time?

 5        A.   According to the press report that I referred to on the 5th of

 6     August, in the middle of the page in English or -- it says "Belgrade."

 7     We can see that the report says:

 8             "The federal government took the decision in a meeting yesterday

 9     to cut all political and economic ties with Republika Srpska."

10             And then it goes on to quote a statement that was issued after

11     the meeting to that effect.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be admitted into

13     evidence.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

15     please be given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P222, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:

19        Q.   Did this, in fact, occur, to your knowledge?

20        A.   There were certain measures that were taken, yes.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were relations cut off economically and

22     politically?

23             THE WITNESS:  I think we'll be seeing documents shortly that

24     would indicate that that was not the case.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The answer is that they didn't.  They didn't

Page 1221

 1     cut --

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- economic and political relations.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  That would be the short answer.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's try and be short, and concise and to the

 6     point.

 7             Yes, Madam Sutherland.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   Mr. Treanor, notwithstanding this apparent rupture in relations,

10     did Republika Srpska leadership still want one state?

11        A.   With the other Serbs, yes.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 06735 on the

13     screen, please.

14        Q.   Did they issue any proposals in relation to this?

15        A.   Yes, they did.

16        Q.   When was this?

17        A.   On the 18th of August, 1994.

18        Q.   What was the proposal?

19        A.   A -- it was a proposition for the integration of the Republic of

20     Serbia, the Republic of Montenegro, the Serbian republic in the Serbian

21     Krajina, into one state adopted by the Assemblies of the Republika

22     Srpska.  I think we're seeing this translated as "Republic of Serbia,"

23     but it's Republika Srpska, and the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure I understand that answer.  You

25     say that the transcript says it was a proposition for the integration of

Page 1222

 1     the Republic of Serbia, the Republic of Montenegro, the Serbian republic

 2     in the Serbian Krajina into one state, adopted by the assemblies of the

 3     Republika Srpska.  What does that mean, that last phrase, adopted by the

 4     Assemblies of Republika Srpska?

 5             THE WITNESS:  The Assemblies of the Republika Srpska and of the

 6     Republic of Serbia and Krajina, both adopted that proposition.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But that is what that sentence is saying?

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could --

 9             THE WITNESS:  I think the second -- I thought I said after

10     Republika Srpska, the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  I also noted that

11     here Republika Srpska is translated as Republic of Serbia, and it's

12     translated further on --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you give the correct answer to that question

14     now, just afresh?

15             THE WITNESS:  The proposition for the integration of the Republic

16     of Serbia, the Republic of Montenegro, Republika Srpska, and the Republic

17     of the Serbian Krajina into one state was adopted by the Assemblies of

18     Republika Srpska and of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

20             Now, if I may just ask, are you able to tell us from where the

21     proposition came or from whom it came?

22             THE WITNESS:  Well, it's based on the right to national

23     self-determination, et cetera.  It says that the Assembly of Republika

24     Srpska and the Assembly of Republic of Serbian Krajina decided to.  So it

25     came from them.

Page 1223

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So it was not a proposition made to them.  It was

 2     a decision by them.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  They're making the proposition in effect

 4     to -- if I could direct your attention to paragraph number 1 under the

 5     title of the proposition, being the next page in English.  Next page in

 6     English, please.  Where it states:

 7             "We ask the Assembly," "we" being the Assemblies of Republika

 8     Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina, "We ask the Assembly of the

 9     Republic of Serbia and the Republic of Montenegro to accept the

10     proposition for the integration into one state ..."

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  So they are propositioning.

12     Thank you so much.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I note this is a final translation

14     from CLSS, but given the differences in translation, I would ask that we

15     ask CLSS to review this translation.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But I thought Mr. Treanor has now given us

17     testimony that is in line with the translation.  He has corrected what

18     was said there earlier.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Well, Your Honour, if -- if I may, at the top of

20     page 1 of the -- of the English translation, it says the Republic of

21     Serbia National Assembly on the first page, on the left-hand side.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And if we can have a look at the first page,

23     please.  Republic of Serbia -- yeah.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And Mr. Treanor's saying that that should be

25     Republika Srpska National Assembly, and then on the right-hand side you

Page 1224

 1     have the Republic of Serbian Krajina Assembly, and then it's going to the

 2     National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia and the National Assembly of

 3     the Republic of Montenegro, the proposition.  And then on page 2 --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure, I -- do you endorse that, Mr. Treanor?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It should be the republic of --

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Republika Srpska.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Republika Srpska.  Any comment to make,

 9     Mr. Guy-Smith?

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yeah, we will do so, ma'am.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.  May that be marked --

13     admitted into evidence and marked for identification.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  It is so admitted.  May it be so marked

15     and given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P223, marked for

17     identification, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:

20        Q.   Mr. Treanor had the Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian

21     Krajina taken -- previously taken steps to unite?

22        A.   Yes, as between themselves.  Between those two entities they had

23     adopted a declaration, a joint session of their Assemblies in, I believe,

24     November 1992 in Prijedor about the unification of their two legal

25     systems and beginning a process of discussion of uniting those two

Page 1225

 1     entities, which was developed over the next several months in meetings

 2     between a commission that was set up.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Now, taking you back to August 1994, which is the document

 4     that we have just discussed.  Was the FRY leadership satisfied at this

 5     point with the Contact Group plan?  If I could have Rule 65 ter number

 6     06640.01, which is the redacted version of that exhibit on the screen,

 7     please.

 8        A.   Yes.  The FRY leadership continued to favour acceptance of the

 9     plan.

10        Q.   At this -- the document that's on the screen before us is the

11     stenographic notes of the 25th session of the SDC session.  Did

12     Slobodan Milosevic -- or what did Slobodan Milosevic say in this session

13     in relation to the -- to the Contact Group plan?

14        A.   He made some statements in support of accepting the plan and

15     critical of the Bosnian Serb leadership --

16        Q.   And if --

17        A.   -- for not doing so.

18        Q.   -- we could go to page 37 of the English translation, and page 24

19     of the B/C/S.  What is Mr. Milosevic's position?

20        A.   Well, for example, in the paragraph -- first paragraph in the

21     English translation, he says that "by pursuing a unanimous policy and

22     quite successfully in my mind, we have managed to save the country from

23     war, and at the same rendered as much support as possible to our people

24     across the Drina and creating the Republika Srpska and creating the

25     Republic of Srpska Krajina and in winning them a normal status by the

Page 1226

 1     negotiations, leading to an ultimate goal, which now even the

 2     international community has offered to recognise.  And that is

 3     Republika Srpska stretching over half of the territory of the former

 4     Bosnia and Herzegovina."

 5        Q.   Could I take you, please, to page 2 -- sorry, page 25 of the

 6     B/C/S -- 27 of the B/C/S and page 41 of the English translation.

 7             Does he talk there about the territory, the amount of territory

 8     that the Bosnian Serbs have?  I'm sorry, no.  Not in relation to the

 9     Bosnian Serbs but in relation to Serb territory.

10        A.   He's referring to the territory that has been offered.  He says:

11             "We have actually been offered to expand the territory by

12     one-fourth, because Yugoslavia's territory is 102.000 square kilometres

13     and to increase the population by one-tenth and to legalise it as well

14     and even to have a confederation right away.  Koziryev told me that quite

15     clearly.  The leadership of Republika Srpska knows that, in that way, we

16     shall be given the right to legally defend those borders.  This rules the

17     Iraqi syndrome of illegally entering a territory and then being exposed

18     to strikes," et cetera.

19        Q.   Can I take you to page 28 of the B/C/S and page 42 of the English

20     translation.

21             Does Slobodan Milosevic make reference to goals being fulfilled?

22        A.   Yes.  He refers on this page in the paragraph beginning "we were

23     in a situation to the establishment of a -- of Republika Srpska."  And he

24     says:

25             "We were in a situation which obviously leads down this dangerous

Page 1227

 1     path.  Seeing how things are going with Republika Srpska, it is possible

 2     that the achievement represented by the offer from the international

 3     community for Republika Srpska to be constituted on one-half of the

 4     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and immediately form a confederation

 5     with Yugoslavia will simply be annihilated.  This will lay the groundwork

 6     for the Serbs to practically remain living in one state, and incomparably

 7     increase the chances for a favourable future solution for the Republic of

 8     Serbian Krajina, whereby all our goals would have been achieved."

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may pages 1, 37, 41, and 42 of the

10     English translation and pages 1, 24, 27, and 28 be admitted into

11     evidence.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are so admitted.  May they please be given an

13     exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P224, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:

17        Q.   Mr. Treanor, what was the Security Council's reaction to the

18     Republika Srpska's refusal to accept the Contact Group plan?

19        A.   Well, it passed a Resolution endorsing that plan, and --

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 02179 on the

21     screen, please.

22        A.   On putting further restrictions on commercial and other

23     activities with the territory of Republika Srpska.

24        Q.   What was the Security Council's -- in this Resolution, what were

25     they -- what were they trying to prevent?

Page 1228

 1        A.   I think we can see that in the second page of the English, they

 2     give a very brief statement under B.

 3        Q.   If you can actually summarise that for the Chamber, that would

 4     be helpful.

 5        A.   I certainly won't to read the whole thing, but the first

 6     paragraph states that the Security Council resolved to reinforce --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Please read slowly.

 8             THE WITNESS:  The Security Council resolved to reinforce and

 9     extend the measures imposed by its previous Resolutions with regard to

10     those areas of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina under the control

11     of Bosnian Serb forces - and then just I call attention the Chamber to

12     numbered paragraph 6 - it called upon states to desist from any political

13     talks with the leadership of the Bosnian Serb party as long as that party

14     has not accepted the proposed settlement in full.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   If I could take you to paragraph 14 on page -- pages 4 and 5 of

17     the English translation and page 4 and 5 of the B/C/S.

18             What basically is paragraph 14 requiring parties to do or states

19     to do?

20        A.   It's requiring them to prevent the entry into their territory of

21     certain officials of the Bosnian Serb republic, including legislative

22     authorities and officers of the Bosnian Serb military and paramilitary

23     forces.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that Security Council

25     Resolution be admitted into evidence?

Page 1229

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 2     given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P225, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   Did the FRY leadership maintain its support for the Contact Group

 7     plan?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I'm sorry, just the UN Resolution that we just looked at, P225,

10     what was the date of that Resolution?

11        A.   UN Security Council Resolution 942 was adopted on the 23rd of

12     September, 1994.

13        Q.   Going forward to November 1994, you said that the FRY leadership

14     did maintain support for the Contact Group plan.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 06677 on the

16     screen, please -- 06677.01, the redacted version of this exhibit.

17        Q.     Mr. Treanor this is the stenographic notes of the 28th session

18     of the SDC held on the 2nd of November, 1994.

19             What did Slobodan Milosevic express at this SDC meeting in

20     relation to its support for the Bosnian Serbs in Republika Srpska?  And

21     if I could take you to paragraph -- sorry, page 30 of the English

22     translation and page 29 of the B/C/S.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I apologise.  Perhaps I'm a bit confused.  There

24     was a question pending, and I thought that this particular document dealt

25     with that question, which was did the FRY leadership maintain support for

Page 1230

 1     the Contact Group plan, which is different from the question now just

 2     asked, which is what did Slobodan Milosevic express in relation to its

 3     support for the Bosnian Serbs.  So there are two different questions

 4     contain in the same paragraph.  They may -- we may reach the same result,

 5     but I'm not sure that that's what my colleague is driving at.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, Mr. Treanor answered the first

 7     question at page 84, line 6, at least on my computer.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Page 84, line 6 on my computer says,

 9     "Judge Moloto:  Thank you so much."

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm two lines away from you.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry, I'm looking at page 84, line 15, going

12     14 November 1994, you said that the FRY leadership did maintain support

13     for contract group plan.  If I could have 65 ter.

14             I thought that's what we were dealing with, and perhaps I

15     misunderstood what this exhibit was for, the purpose of this exhibit was

16     for.  I thought this was going to be documentation, in fact, that the FRY

17     leadership did support the FRY leadership plan.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That's exactly what it's for.  The question was

19     was there support.  Mr. Treanor said yes.  I then asked him what did

20     Slobodan Milosevic say in this session in relation to support for the

21     Bosnian Serbs in Republika Srpska.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think we're thinking cross-purposes, but

23     that's -- well, let's just proceed and see where we get to.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, maybe if I might just try to come to the

25     rescue.  That question of whether the FRY leadership supported the

Page 1231

 1     Contact Group plan was answered up above at page 84, line 8 to 10.  Now,

 2     here Madam Sutherland is looping that answer before she puts the next

 3     question.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 7        Q.   Mr. Treanor?

 8        A.   At this session Slobodan Milosevic indicated -- continued to

 9     indicate his support for the plan in that connection.  I would draw the

10     Court's attention to the very bottom of the page in the English

11     translation where he says:

12             "The standpoint of the entire world on five superpowers is

13     absolutely categorical.  These talks can be continued only if the plan is

14     accepted."  "They," meaning the Bosnian Serb leaders, "do not realise how

15     little space we have for our manoeuvres, and this was the best we could

16     get.  They resigned themselves to their fate, and said, all right.  It is

17     quite clear that the Serbs have the right to confederation with

18     Yugoslavia.  I mean, then it is one state."

19             I'm sorry, I think "they" actually means the international

20     community there.

21        Q.   If I can take you to page 29 of the B/C/S and page 32 of the

22     English translation.

23             Does he talk there about -- about achieving goals?

24        A.   I'm sorry on which page of the English?

25        Q.   Page 32 of the English translation and page 29 of the B/C/S.  I

Page 1232

 1     think it's at the top of the page.

 2        A.   Okay.  I have it now.  Sorry.  Yes.

 3             Now, this -- the passage that I'd like to call the Court's

 4     attention to is the second paragraph at the top of the page.  Here the

 5     "they" in question is the Bosnian Serb leaders.

 6             "It is not the question anymore whether they can accomplish that

 7     goal, because we promptly advised them that it was impossible to achieve

 8     the goal they wanted to achieve.  We also told them that the politics is

 9     the art of the possible and not the art of the impossible.  It is simply

10     impossible that the international community will get along with the fact

11     that two-thirds of the population, including Croats and Muslims, are

12     crammed into less than half of the territory.  Trust me, I did not -- did

13     not expect that they would give us half of the territory."

14             And the "they" in that sentence being the international

15     community.

16        Q.   And again on page 30 of the B/C/S and 33 of the English

17     translation.

18        A.   Here again Slobodan Milosevic refers to what the international

19     community had agreed to.  And says at the top of the page:

20             "And all that happens after so much suffering.  We endured

21     everything.  We went through all the sanctions, and we came to the point

22     when the entire international community says, "All right.  You are not

23     the aggressors.  Half of Bosnia and Herzegovina is yours, and you have

24     the right to merge with Serbia and Montenegro.  They say," they being the

25     Bosnian Serb leaders, "No, and we will take even more by force.  We will

Page 1233

 1     prolong the war.  That is what I call complete madness."

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, can those pages be admitted, that

 3     is pages --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  1, 30, 32, and 33.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, of the English translation.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.  They are so admitted.  They may

 7     please be given an exhibit number.  And they are admitted with their

 8     corresponding B/C/S pages.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That will be Exhibit

10     P226, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:

13        Q.   So at this time, being November 1994, did the Bosnian Serb

14     leadership still say that they wanted 70 -- at least 70 per cent of the

15     territory?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 02344 on the

17     screen, please.

18        A.   They continued to refuse to accept the Contact Group plan.

19        Q.   At this session, which is the 46th session of the Bosnian Serb

20     Assembly, held on the 11th of November, 1994, and which continued on the

21     23rd of November, 1994, did Momcilo Krajisnik discuss the Contact Group

22     maps and how they related to the strategic goals?

23        A.   Yes.  He made reference to that.

24        Q.   If I could take you to page 164 and 165 of the English

25     translation and page 146 of the B/C/S.

Page 1234

 1             Can you tell the Court what Momcilo Krajisnik said at this

 2     session?

 3        A.   I'm -- I'm sorry, I'm having trouble identifying the passage.

 4     All the pages seem to be numbered 350 on the copy I have.

 5        Q.   That's also true of the English translation we have.

 6             It's -- if I can take you to where it says page 35 in the English

 7     translation, which is halfway down the page on page 164 of e-court, where

 8     Chairman Krajisnik starts the discussion.  And it's down towards the

 9     bottom of that page.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I could be of some assistance, I have the two

11     specific pages I could -- if the usher could give them to the witness,

12     that might be of some help.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland --

14             THE WITNESS:  There seems to be more than one page 35 in the

15     original.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You may want to check with Ms. Sutherland to make

17     sure I have the same document.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yeah.  That's what's on the screen now.

19     Mr. Treanor, if you can look -- don't worry about the pages.  They can

20     come up on e-court.

21             Usher, could you return those documents to the Defence, please.

22        Q.   Mr. Treanor if you look at the bottom of the -- what's on the

23     screen now in the English translation.  Six lines up from the -- seven

24     lines up.  "I would like to ask you not to discuss the maps at all."  And

25     then on the second to last line of that page.  "If you want to ask me, I

Page 1235

 1     will tell you the Serbian land..." and it continues.  And then it

 2     continues over the page on page 165 of e-court, of the English

 3     translation.

 4             What is Mr. Krajisnik saying there in relation to the maps and

 5     how they relate to the strategic goals?

 6        A.   Well, he notes here:

 7             "I have an accurate conclusion that we have the strategic goals.

 8     We know exactly where the boundary lines run.  It is the Una River, the

 9     Sava River, the Drina River, the Neretva River, the sea, et cetera."

10        Q.   So what's the Bosnian Serb leadership's concern at this point?

11        A.   Well, they're still concerned to achieve those goals.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may page 100 -- page 1 and 164 and

13     165 be admitted into evidence and page 1 and 146 of the B/C/S, please.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do so, could I just be on the same page

15     with you, Mr. Treanor.

16             You've just read where they say:

17             "I have an accurate conclusion.  We have the strategic goals.  We

18     know exact which are the boundary lines are," and then he mentions those

19     lines, and then the question was: What did the Serb leadership -- Bosnian

20     Serb leadership want?  And you said those goals, but those goals, you say

21     they have already.

22             THE WITNESS:  Well, they've adopted those goals as goals.  A goal

23     is something to be achieved.  They hadn't been achieved in their entirety

24     yet.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess that is the question.  What was

Page 1236

 1     outstanding?  What was not achieved at this point in time?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Well, along the Sava River the Bosnian Serbs did

 3     not control the whole southern bank of the river.  So the corridor was

 4     not as satisfactory as they would have wanted in that -- in that area.

 5             And the Drina, there were still places in the Drina valley that

 6     they did not control.  They did not have -- occupy much -- perhaps no

 7     territory on the eastern bank of the Neretva River, and they had not

 8     achieved an outlet to the sea.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             And those pages are then admitted into evidence.  May they please

11     be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P227, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:

15        Q.   Now, by the end of 1994, did the Bosnian Serb leadership still

16     want to unite with the FRY or the Republic of Serbia?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 06680 on the

18     screen, please.

19        A.   Yes, they did.

20        Q.   And how was this conveyed to the FRY leadership?

21        A.   Well, at this -- at this time, this time being November 1994, an

22     interview with Momcilo Krajisnik was published in a Bosnian Serb newspaper

23     containing his views on the situation on that matter.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have page 9 of the English

25     translation and page 4 of the B/C/S.

Page 1237

 1        Q.   What did Mr. Krajisnik say in this article in relation to wanting

 2     to unite with Serbia or the FRY?

 3        A.   Well, for instance, at the bottom of the page in the English, in

 4     the line beginning with "State," he says:

 5             "We feel that our goal is not a confederation.  We want to be

 6     united with the Republic of Serbia into a single state because a

 7     confederation is not a state.  If their proposal is such, then we can

 8     choose another version and demand that we be independent and that we

 9     unite as such.  I'm not the least bit afraid of whether Serbia will want

10     this.  Serbia is not an individual.  Serbia is the people whose hearts go

11     out to us and who understand us."

12        Q.   Does he also mention -- make mention to Sarajevo in this article?

13        A.   Yes, he did.

14        Q.   And without reading it into the record, what does he -- what does

15     he say?

16        A.   Well, he says that Serb -- Sarajevo will be the capital of the

17     Serbs in Bosnia, but one day Belgrade will be the capital of all the

18     Serbs.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may that document be admitted into

20     evidence.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so admitted.  May it please be given an

22     exhibit number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P228, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:

Page 1238

 1        Q.   Mr. Treanor, can you tell the Chamber very briefly what was

 2     happening between December 1994 and August 1995.  Very briefly, please?

 3        A.   Very briefly, yes.

 4        Q.   We have five minutes before the end of today's session.

 5        A.   In Bosnia a cease-fire was, in fact, reached at the end of 1994,

 6     which was scheduled to last for four months.  All three parties signed

 7     that.

 8             In Croatia progress was made in negotiations between the

 9     government of Croatia and the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  An economic

10     agreement was signed in December 1994.  However, things didn't continue

11     to go so well in Croatia in January.  President Tudjman announced that he

12     would refuse the extension of the mandate of UNPROFOR in Croatia after

13     the end of March 1995, and the republic of -- the RSK renounced the

14     economic agreement and at one point closed the highway through Western

15     Slavonia that had been opened pursuant to that agreement.

16             At the end of April the cease-fire in BH expired, attempts to

17     have it extended having failed, and the next day the 1st of May, 1995,

18     Croatian forces invaded western Slavonia in Croatia and, in fact,

19     occupied that entire territory.

20             After that, military operations resumed in Bosnia.  For instance,

21     in the next few months the safe haven of Srebrenica and Zepa were taken

22     by Bosnian Serb forces, and Croatian forces took the city of -- the town

23     of Grahovo in Bosnia at -- toward the end of July 1995, and a few days

24     later they launch Operation Storm against the RSK and within a few days

25     had eliminated all of its territory except for the area of Eastern

Page 1239

 1     Slavonia.

 2             So that was the situation as of the beginning of August.

 3        Q.   And we have Srebrenica in Bosnia at the end -- beginning of July,

 4     middle of July?

 5        A.   That was in July, yes.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I know we're five minutes before

 7     finishing, but I'm about to move on to another rather extended exhibit.

 8     If --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you like to break at this point?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then that brings us to the end of the day's

12     session.  Adjourned to tomorrow at 9.00, same courtroom.

13             Court adjourned.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day

16                           of November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.

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