1 Monday, 10 November 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom today.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May we have appearances for
12 the day starting with the Prosecution.
13 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour. Ms. Ann
14 Sutherland and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution, together with myself,
15 Dan Saxon.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And for the Defence.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good morning, Your Honour. Novak Lukic; Daniela
18 Tasic, our case manager; Chad Mair; Tina Drolec; Eadaoin O'Brien, one of
19 our interns; and my name is Gregor Guy-Smith.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the record reflect that we're sitting pursuant
21 to Rule 15 bis today because for reasons unavoidable Judge David is not
22 with us today.
23 WITNESS: PATRICK TREANOR [Resumed]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Treanor, good morning.
25 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I remind you you're still bound by the
2 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the
3 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
4 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 Ms. Sutherland.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Examination by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]
9 Q. Mr. Treanor, I first want to take you back to something that you
10 said at the very beginning of the hearing last Thursday which appears at
11 transcript pages 1043 and 1044. You were making corrections to events
12 which occurred in the Republic of Serbian Krajina in early 1991. You
13 mentioned three dates. On the transcript page 1043 at line 23, you
14 mention the 28th of February, 1992. On transcript page 1044, line 1, you
15 mentioned the 1st of April, 1992, and on line 3 of the same page you
16 mention the 25th of April, 1992.
17 Now, the 25th of April, 1992, date was corrected by you to 1991.
18 However, the two dates you also mentioned before that were not picked up.
19 For the correctness of the record with the remaining two dates, that is
20 the 28th of February, 1992 and the 1st of April, 1992, did you, in fact,
21 mean to say 1991 and not 1992?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. In relation to the correctness of the record, are there any other
24 matters that you wish to draw the attention of the parties in the court
1 A. Yes, there is.
2 Q. What are they?
3 A. At the very end of the session on Thursday, there was some
4 discussion of the phrase "strategic goals," and I compared the two
5 phrases -- or that phrase as it appeared in two different documents. I
6 believe I said that they were the same in Serbian. In fact, there is a
7 slight difference between the two phrases in Serbian as they appeared in
8 those two documents that the difference being in the first word of the
9 phrase, the word that was rendered in both cases in English as
10 "strategic." The adjective in Serbian in the two different cases takes a
11 slightly different form. The second word of the phrase "goals" is the
12 same. That word was translated in two different ways in those two
13 different documents. So there is a slight difference between the two
14 phrases as they appeared in those documents in the first word of the
16 Q. Perhaps then we could --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. I appreciate the correction, but I'm
18 not sure I understand precisely what it is.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Neither do I.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: I think, Your Honour, it might assist if we can
21 quickly go -- turn back to those two documents.
22 Q. Mr. Treanor, the two documents you were referring to were the
23 last two documents that you were shown, that is P193.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: If that could be brought up onto the screen,
25 please. And I think that is at pages 41 to 42 of the English translation
1 and pages 49 to 51 of the B/C/S. And if we could go to the bottom of
2 page 42 where Dobrica Cosic is speaking.
3 Q. Is that the -- is that the paragraph you were referring to,
4 Mr. Treanor?
5 A. No. Actually, I believe the document I was referring to was the
6 last document in the session, which I think is --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That will be Exhibit 194.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. If it --
9 THE WITNESS: And the other document was the 16th session of the
10 Bosnian Serb Assembly.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: In relation to P194, if we could go to page 127
12 of the English translation and page 137 of the B/C/S.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know whether it's me alone, but on this
14 English channel I keep hearing some people way in the background. Are
15 there crossed lines somewhere?
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: You mean the ghosts.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, there are ghosts.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, yes.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: At least we're all hearing them. That's fine.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND:
21 Q. I think, Mr. Treanor, you were talking about point 9 of -- of
22 Zivota Panic's discussion?
23 A. Yes, that's right. I think I can make the point just looking at
24 this particular document. We discussed point nine where it says
25 "strategic aims." The word aims is the word that had been translated
1 before as goals. That word is the same as we had seen it in the 16th
2 session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly.
3 The first word which here is translated as "strategic" in Serbian
4 is slightly different than the Serbian adjective that we saw before in
5 the 16th session. Here the adjectival form is used is strategiski as
6 opposed to strateski in the 16th session. So there is that difference
7 between the two adjectives. They're both formed from the same root,
9 Q. Could you explain to the Chamber the differences as you see them
10 between the two?
11 A. Well, I think that the meaning of the two words is the same.
12 They've been translated the same in English. One could perhaps capture
13 the difference by saying strategic and strategical. I think those two
14 words exist in English. I'm not aware if they have any difference in
15 meaning either. I just wanted to point out that minor difference in the
16 two phrases.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Treanor. I
18 want to assume that Mr. Guy-Smith doesn't know B/C/S and that his
19 objection, I thought, was based on the substitution of the word "goals"
20 with the word "objectives." I'm not quite sure whether he understood --
21 he was -- I'm not quite sure he was objecting to the word "strategic,"
22 but he's here.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, you're absolutely right. That was my
24 objection at the time. I'm pleased to receive the education with regards
25 to the difference between the adjectival use of strategic, which is a
1 different matter. Whether strategic and strategical mean the same thing
2 is something perhaps that we can take up at a different point, but Your
3 Honour is right. That was what my concern was at the time, but
4 apparently we remain in the same state of play as regards to that
5 particular issue, I gather, from what Mr. Treanor has said.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Thank you very much.
7 Yes, Madam Sutherland.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. Mr. Treanor, was there anything else?
10 A. No.
11 Q. As everyone is aware during last Thursday's hearing, there were a
12 number of technical glitches with the documents in e-court. I would have
13 liked to have dealt with those documents before we moved on today, but
14 unfortunately I'm unable to do so until they're uploaded into e-court,
15 which hasn't yet occurred. However, one of the exhibits which was MFI'd,
16 that's P184, I wish to tender the pages that were identified during
17 Thursday's hearing. P194 MFI
18 1079, line 17?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry. Are you talking about P184 MFI,
20 because 194 was not MFI
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: P184. I'm sorry, Your Honour.
22 It was first called up as 65 ter number 06668. The exhibit was
23 MFIed at transcript page 1088. The registrar and case manager located
24 the pages which had been discussed by Mr. Treanor, which were
25 subsequently read into the record by the registrar at transcript page
1 1107. I now wish to tender those pages as Exhibit P184.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those pages are admitted into evidence as Exhibit
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND:
7 Q. The Defence queried the source of two exhibits at transcript
8 pages 1132 in relation to P194 and transcript pages 1139 in relation to
9 P194. In addition, the Defence queried whether the OTP was in possession
10 of audios of both of these exhibits. Inquiries have been made with
11 respect to the two queries, and regarding the source, I said at
12 transcript page 1132 that it was provided by the Serbian government;
13 however, at that time it was known as the federal republic of Yugoslavia,
14 i.e., the government of the Republic of Serbia
15 regard to the query re: The audio, the FRY government did not provide the
16 OTP with audios of either of these exhibits.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The transcript refers to one exhibit,
18 Madam Sutherland. I know that you did mention exhibits twice, but I also
19 heard you mention P194 twice instead of two separate exhibits. Just look
20 at page 7, line 1 and 2.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, on page 6 -- or for me it's page 6,
22 line 25, but obviously on your screen it's page 7, line 1, the first
23 exhibit that I mentioned was P193.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see. I don't have page 25 at page -- I mean,
25 line 25 at page 6, unfortunately. So --
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: I mentioned two exhibits, P193 and 194.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: And the -- the page number is also incorrect on
4 that first page. It's transcript page 1132.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Instead of?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Well, that doesn't appear in the transcript.
7 P193 was discussed at transcript page 1132 and P194, the query was raised
8 at transcript page 1139.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for that clarification.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Now, on Thursday afternoon, Mr. Treanor, we had
11 been dealing with the documents in relation to the Federal Republic
13 You mentioned earlier in your testimony that Dobrica Cosic was
14 the president of the FRY. Who became president after Dobrica Cosic?
15 A. Zoran Lilic was the next president of the FRY.
16 Q. When was he elected to that position?
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have Rule 65 ter number 06824.
18 Page 1 -- it's a one-page document, both English and B/C/S.
19 A. As we can see from this document, that occurred on the 25th of
20 June, 1993.
21 Q. Who appointed him. Who -- who passed that decision, I'm sorry?
22 A. He was elected by the Federal Assembly of the FRY.
23 Q. Who was the chief of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavian army
24 when Lilic became president?
25 A. If by "chief" you mean the chief of staff, the chief of staff at
1 that time was General Zivota Panic.
2 Q. Who did Lilic subsequently appoint as chief of the General Staff
3 of the --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND:
6 Q. Who did Lilic subsequently appoint as Chief of the General Staff
7 of the army of the FRY?
8 A. Mr. Lilic shortly thereafter appointed General Momcilo Perisic as
9 Chief of the General Staff.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have 65 ter number 05046 on the screen,
11 please. Page 1 of each of the B/C/S and English at the moment and then
12 onto page 2 of the English translation.
13 Q. When did this occur, Mr. Treanor?
14 A. That occurred on the 26th of August, 1993. As can be seen in
15 this document.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can those -- that document and the
17 previous document, so Rule 65 ter number 06824, may that be admitted into
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say 6824, 06824 --
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: That was the decision on the election of Lilic.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. 65 ter 06824 is admitted into evidence.
22 May it please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P195, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And 05046 is also admitted.
25 May it please be given an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P196.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND:
4 Q. I want to now direct your attention to legislation that was
5 passed by the FRY Assembly in relation to the army. Can you tell the
6 Court what -- what law was passed and when?
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I have Rule 65 ter number 00426 on the
8 screen, please.
9 A. Two major pieces of legislation came into effect at the end of
10 1993, a Law on Defence and a law on the army of Yugoslavia. They came
11 into effect provisionally in October 1993, and they're -- and they came
12 into effect in their final form in May 1994.
13 Q. Turning to the law on the army, does this govern the duties and
14 responsibilities of army personnel including the Chief of the General
16 A. Yes, it does.
17 Q. If I could take you to Article 4 of the -- the law on the army,
18 which is on page 2 of the B/C/S and page 2 of the -- sorry, page 1 of the
19 B/C/S and page 2 of the English translation.
20 Who commands the army in -- under -- under this legislation?
21 A. Well, in terms of Article 4, as we can see in the first paragraph
22 it states "The president of the republic shall command the army in war
23 and peace in accordance with decisions of the Supreme Defence Council."
24 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, may this document be admitted into
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document is admitted into evidence. May it
2 please be given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P197, Your Honours.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND:
5 Q. Mr. Treanor, we've dealt with the Serb political entities of the
6 Republic of Serbian
7 and Herzegovina
8 now to discuss international developments which affected these Serbian
9 entities and the relations among -- amongst them. I would like to take
10 you back to April 1992. Towards the end of April what position did the
11 FRY take vis-a-vis the other republics of the -- what were then SFRY?
12 A. It adopted a --
13 Q. I'm sorry, if I could -- could correct myself. At that time they
14 were no longer republics of the SFRY, but I meant in relation to
15 republics of the former SFRY. If I could have 65 ter number 06695 on the
16 screen, please. Page 1 of the B/C/S and English and then onto page 2 of
17 the English translation. I'm sorry, I interrupted you.
18 A. On 27 April 1992
19 the Republic of Montenegro
21 Q. And basically what was the position?
22 A. I would call the Court's attention to paragraph numbered 4 in
23 that connection, which is on the next page of the English translation.
24 Paragraph 4 in the middle of the page. "The Federal Republic
1 Respecting the aims and principles of the United Nations charter.
2 The CSCE documents it shall adhere strictly to the principle of using
3 non-violent means to resolve any open issues." The CSCE is the
4 abbreviation for the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe
5 which later on became known as the OSCE.
6 Q. Now, from documents that you've reviewed and some of which we
7 will see subsequently, was that, in fact, the case, that FRY had no
8 territorial pretensions?
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. I -- before the witness answers the
10 question, I think it's outside the purview of his expertise, and it
11 calls for a legal conclusion with regard to relatively critical issue.
12 If the witness wishes to, through examination, point to documents it's
13 different than drawing the conclusion at this time.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, in my submission Mr. Treanor can
16 answer this question. He has reviewed numerous documents, and he can
17 give his opinion based on his review of those documents as to whether, in
18 fact, this statement is -- is a correct one.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you doubt the correctness of the statement?
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why? Why do you doubt it?
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: I don't want to give evidence from the bar
23 table, Your Honour, but we will see clearly from documents that will be
24 coming up that they were -- the FRY were clearly involved in the
25 territory of the former republics of the SFRY -- the republics of the
1 former SFRY.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem is this witness is not a fact witness.
3 Now you want him to confirm a fact. He's an expert.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: No. I'm asking --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you're saying to me that other documents are
6 going to come and contradict this document, then let so be it. Then the
7 question is he the person who can reconcile any contradictions or not,
8 and if he is, then you can ask him so, but I'm not quite sure whether
9 he's here as a fact witness. If you're asking him to confirm a fact.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour. I'm asking him to give me an
11 opinion in relation to all the documents that he has reviewed whether, in
12 fact, that statement as -- as it stands, as it reads, is correct. We can
13 move on, Your Honour, and we can demonstrate through the documents.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do that.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. Mr. Treanor, what implications did this declaration that you
17 have -- I'm sorry, could that document be admitted into evidence, Your
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You haven't given us the 65 ter number. What is
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: 06695. I thought I brought the document up onto
22 the screen.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: 06695. Oh, sorry. I probably didn't take it
24 down. Thank you very much. The exhibit is admitted into evidence. May
25 it please be given an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P198, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND:
4 Q. Mr. Treanor, what implications did this document have for the FRY
5 and the JNA?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if I could have 65 ter number 06693 on the
7 screen, please.
8 A. At the date that declaration was adopted, the JNA was still
9 present in BH, and shortly thereafter the FRY -- the new FRY authorities
10 agreed to withdraw the JNA from BH by a certain date. I believe the date
11 was the 19th of May, 1992.
12 Q. If I can take you to page 4 of the English translation and page 4
13 of the B/C/S. Mr. Treanor, this is minutes of the 197th session of the
14 Presidency of the SFRY. What did they agree in relation to the JNA at
15 this session?
16 A. At this session of the Presidency of the SFRY, which if I can
17 remind the Court was exercising the powers of the president of the new
18 FRY pending the election of the president, the Presidency of the SFRY
19 made certain decisions about the -- the -- the Yugoslav army as it was
20 now called in relation to its presence in Bosnia and Herzegovina
21 Q. What did they decide?
22 A. Well, I would call the Court's attention to the English under
23 Item 2, which is item 2 in the agenda. I won't read the whole thing
24 certainly. In the second paragraph under that item, the Presidency calls
25 for members of the JNA in BH to return to Yugoslavia within 15 days at
1 the latest, and in the second paragraph, if I could read that, there
2 was -- there's a slight problem perhaps in the translation.
3 "Given that this process will be concluded within 15 days at the
4 latest, the Yugoslav Presidency has estimated," not "decided," "that
5 according to the SFRY constitution, there are no grounds for the Yugoslav
6 Presidency, or any other Yugoslav organ, to make decisions regarding
7 military issues on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
8 And the next paragraph I would just read a bit because again
9 there appear to be a couple of translation issues.
10 "The Yugoslav Presidency has concluded," not "decided," "to call
11 on the leaderships of all three national," "national," not "ethnic,"
12 "communities in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Muslims, Serbs, and Croats, to
13 reach an agreement and make a decision on taking on the JNA which is made
14 up of citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to avoid unwanted
15 situations and consequences."
16 The army was still at this point officially known as the JNA of
17 the new name. The new name, Yugoslav Army, was not officially adopted
18 until the 19th or the 20th of May.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I note in your -- in your reading, Mr. Treanor,
20 that you're skipping what is written in the English translation as "that
21 part of the JNA."
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. Those words do
23 not appear in the original.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: So just a second. I'm trying to understand this
1 document as translated by Mr. Treanor.
2 So do I understand you to be saying, then, that the JNA that is
3 made up of citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina will stay in Bosnia
5 THE WITNESS: Well, it -- first a decision being made. That
6 would be part of the decision, I imagine. It doesn't say that they would
7 necessarily stay there pursuant to that decision.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: My understanding of your translation was that the
9 Presidency has concluded, not decided, to call on the leadership of all
10 three national communities, Muslims, Serbs, and Croats, to reach an
11 agreement and make a decision on taking the JNA, which is made up of
12 citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: So the decision that is anticipated from these
15 national communities is that they must take up the JNA that is made up of
16 those citizens.
17 THE WITNESS: Right. In other words, members of the JNA that are
18 citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I agree that the words -- that "part
19 of" would logically fit in that sentence, but, unfortunately, they're not
20 in the original, but that would be the sense.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I thank you.
22 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Just so I'm clear, just with regard to what the
24 witness just said, because as we understand the issue of translation and
25 interpretation is, in fact, an art and not a science. Since he indicated
1 that that particular language "that part of the JNA" makes sense. Do I
2 understand what the witness is saying those words are not contained in
3 the document, but the document itself would give that as a meaning? I'm
4 just unclear as to what he's saying at this point in particular, whether
5 he's discussing a literal -- whether it's literally written a particular
6 way, Your Honour or not.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, as I understand him yes the words are not
8 mentioned in the original, but that interpretation would be the logical
9 interpretation because some of the members of the JNA will not
10 necessarily be citizens of BiH.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. I just want to make sure because I don't
12 want to dwell on points that don't need to be dwelt on.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. But be that as it may, this now --
14 may I ask a question. Is this an official translation or is this a draft
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: One moment. It's a draft official translation,
17 Your Honour, draft CLSS translation. Official being what you termed the
18 other day as the CLSS unit that has -- that was set up. So this is a
19 draft of -- from the CLSS. I was going to ask Your Honour to mark it for
20 identification and then we would seek to get a revised translation.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Sutherland.
22 It is with that in mind that I was asking the question. Then 65
23 ter 06693 will be made -- may it please be given an exhibit number and
24 marked for identification.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P199 marked for
1 identification, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed, Madam
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter number 02144.01 on the
5 screen, please, at page 353 of the English translation and 422 of the
7 Q. Mr. Treanor --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess -- if I may just sound a warning. We are
9 going to do admit only the pages you deal with.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are dealing with so many --
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's correct.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: That said, the previous document 6693 is a
15 five-page document.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: So that document is admitted in its entirety,
18 whereas the next document is quite substantive.
19 Q. Mr. Treanor, so how did the withdrawal of the JNA work out, in
21 A. Well, on the basis of the next document, we're going to be
22 seeing, the JNA officers and men who were in Bosnia and were citizens of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina that remained there and became part of the Bosnian
24 Serb forces. Also, a bunch of its equipment was left there and was taken
25 over by the Bosnian Serb forces.
1 Q. This document that is on the screen is -- is it not a transcript
2 of a continuation of the 34th session of the SDS Assembly on the -- held
3 on the 28th of August, 1993?
4 A. Yes, it is. In fact, that was a very long session extended over
5 several days in the course of over a month. This particular statement
6 was made on the 11th of September, 1993.
7 Q. I took you and the Court to page 353 of the English translation
8 and 422 of the B/C/S in order so that they could see the speaker. Who is
9 speaking at this session?
10 A. General Milan Gvero.
11 Q. And then if I could go to page 354 and 423 of the English and
12 B/C/S respectively.
13 Can you tell the Court General Gvero's position in August 1993
14 reflecting back on -- on the withdrawal of the JNA in May 1992?
15 A. Yes. Perhaps I could call the Court's attention to the first
16 full paragraph in the English translation beginning with "The SDS
17 I'll just read that paragraph and the following sentence and the next
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That whole long paragraph do you want to read?
20 THE WITNESS: No that particular paragraph beginning with the SDS
21 is -- it's five lines long mercifully. If I could read that in the first
22 sentence of the next paragraph. General Gvero says:
23 "The SDS
24 have been established take the most credits for arming the Serb people
25 with personal weapons, which was made possible by the rapid support of
1 the many Serb officers in the commands of the former JNA on the territory
2 of the former BH, Serbs in internal affairs institutions, if you will,
3 and in the political institutions of the army and Serbia, that is the
5 And the beginning of the next paragraph:
6 "In May 1992, after the JNA left our territory, the army of
7 Republic of Srpska
8 appointed to the most important commanding positions."
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I note once again that your translation is not
10 identical with the translation as we have it.
11 THE WITNESS: Right. There were a couple --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Once again I ask the status of this translation.
13 Is it an official translation? Is it -- is it and final translation? Is
14 it a draft translation?
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's a draft -- draft translation, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may proceed, ma'am.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND:
18 Q. Does General Gvero also talk about the -- the weapons to be
19 left -- that were left there? Does he --
20 A. Well, he makes -- he makes a statement addressing the equipment
21 of the Bosnian Serb forces. Further down in that paragraph, there's just
22 one sentence I would draw the Court's attention to. It's at the very
23 bottom of the English as appearing on the screen now. The line beginning
24 with "No one to ask," the first full sentence begins:
25 "We had neither a budget to support us nor the material resources
1 to fight the war. Not a single plane or helicopter has been bought, nor
2 any artillery weapons, et cetera."
3 Q. Mr. Treanor, if I can just take you back up to the paragraph
4 beginning "In May 1992," and towards the end of that paragraph, does
5 General Gvero say anything about the direction -- the direction of the --
6 the -- that would be taken?
7 A. Yes. He says -- in referring to -- referring to the main
8 tasks of the army:
9 "All the human and material resources were kept that could help
10 improve the situation on the front. The principle direction was
11 establishing a combat force and keeping the unity of all the Serb people
12 in order to achieve the goals of war."
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if that page may be admitted into
14 evidence and marked for identification while we get a revised translation
15 of that page.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Only that page or also 353?
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I simply took you to page 353 so
18 that you could see where Gvero was starting the conversation so you that
19 knew who the person -- the speaker was, but the page -- the only page
20 that I'm interested in or we're interested in is page 354 of the English
21 translation and 423 of the B/C/S.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Page 354 of 65 ter 02144 is
23 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P200 marked for
25 identification, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes. Thank you so much.
2 Marked for identification.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND:
4 Q. Mr. Treanor, in light of what we've just seen, what position did
5 the international community take in relation to the JNA withdrawal? If I
6 could have 65 ter number 02067 on the screen, please.
7 A. Well, the international community in the shape of the UN Security
8 Council was very anxious that all foreign forces leave BH in May 1992,
9 and it passed two Resolutions in that connection.
10 Q. We're looking at Resolution 752. Is that the first Resolution
11 you were referring to?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. And what demands did the Security Council put on the parties?
14 The --
15 A. Well, to answer that question, I would draw the Court's attention
16 to numbered item 3, which would be on the next page or the following page
17 in the English.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly lower his microphones
19 a little bit. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You heard that, Mr. Treanor?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: They don't seem to have gone much lower.
23 THE WITNESS: Again calling the Court's attention to numbered
24 paragraph 3 in the middle of the page, and number 4 and number 6. I
25 won't read them since there are no translation issues and we can all see
1 them, but number 3 refers to demanding that all forms of interference
2 from outside BH, including units of the JNA, cease immediately.
3 Paragraph 4 demands that those units of the Yugoslav People's
4 Army and elements of the Croatian army now in BH must be withdrawn, et
6 And paragraph 6 called upon all parties and others concerned to
7 ensure that forcible expulsions, I guess that's not responsive to the
8 question, but paragraphs 3 and 4 relate to the issue of foreign forces in
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that be admitted into evidence.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 02067 is admitted into evidence. May it
12 please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P201, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter number 02193 on the
16 screen. Firstly at page 1 and then to page 3 of the English translation
17 and pages 2 to 3 of the B/C/S.
18 Q. Mr. Treanor, were the international community -- or Security
19 Council satisfied with measures taken by the FRY to disengage itself from
20 BiH in response to the previous Resolution we just saw?
21 A. No, they weren't.
22 Q. In that regard, they issued a subsequent Resolution?
23 A. Yes, they did.
24 Q. Was that Resolution 757?
25 A. Yes, that's the one.
1 Q. And what demands did that -- did that take?
2 A. Well, in that connection I would call the Court's attention to
3 the next page -- or page 3 of the Resolution beginning with numbered
4 point 1 there in which we can see the Security Council condemns the
5 failure of the authorities in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,
6 including the Yugoslav People's Army, to take effective measures to
7 fulfil the requirements of the previous Resolution that we'd just seen.
8 And in point 3 it decided that all states shall adopt measures as
9 set up below, which will apply until the Security Council decides that
10 the authorities had taken effective measures.
11 And in the points below it sets out certain measures restricting
12 commerce between the FRY and other states.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be admitted into
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's so admitted. May it please be given an
16 exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P202, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND:
20 Q. Could you briefly tell the Court what progress was made towards
21 making peace after the sanctions were imposed.
22 A. Well, after the sanctions which were referred to were imposed, I
23 don't believe the Resolution actually uses the word "sanctions,"
24 negotiations continued for a settlement in BH under the auspices of the
25 international community. The so-called International Conference on the
1 Former Yugoslavia
2 September 1992.
3 The co-chairmen of that conference were Lord David Owen and Cyrus
4 Vance, and the parties in conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina carried out
5 negotiations throughout the autumn of 1992 under their auspices and began
6 to come close to an agreement on a package of measures which came to be
7 known as the Vance-Owen Plan.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have Rule 65 ter number 06690 on the
9 screen, please.
10 Q. Mr. Treanor, this is a transcript of the 20th session of the
11 Bosnian Serb Assembly session held on the 14th and 15th of September,
12 1992. What were the objectives of the Bosnian Serb leadership put
13 forward in this Assembly session?
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if I could, first of all, ask the Registry
15 to turn to page 51 of the English translation and 56 of the B/C/S simply
16 so that we could see the speaker.
17 Q. Mr. Treanor, what did Radovan Karadzic have to say about -- about
18 the objectives?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if I could -- sorry. If we can see, Your
20 Honours, down at the bottom of the page president Radovan Karadzic begins
21 to speak at that point. And it's at the top of the B/C/S page. If we
22 could turn to page 55 of the English translation and page 60 of the
24 Q. What were the issues that -- that Mr. Karadzic was talking about
1 A. I would call the Court's attention to the paragraph in the
2 English beginning "Please," which -- in which it refers to the goals and
3 issues in the negotiations. I will not read that whole paragraph, but
4 just at the beginning:
5 "Please, we know what our goals are. There can be some
6 negotiations about the borders - a village here or there, that can be
7 decided locally by whomever wants, but our goal is to protect our
8 territory and endure long enough for all factors to agree."
9 It then goes on to say "The factual situation will be decisive,"
10 and talks about the nature of the borders that he would like to see. He
12 "We'll accept the external borders on the condition that we get
13 the internal borders, but we will make do everything we can to make the
14 internal borders thicker than the external borders without publicly
15 saying so. Our borders towards the Muslims and Croats are to be thicker
16 than our borders towards Serbia
17 That is why I ask you as deputies to never doubt what our goal is. Our
18 goal is a state."
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, as you can see the word "objective"
20 is in the English translation that's on the screen, and Mr. Treanor uses
21 the word "goal." I would ask that be admitted into evidence and marked
22 for identification, and we will have a revised translation of that
23 particular passage.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted. May it please be given an
25 exhibit number and marked for identification.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P203 marked for
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I rise just for a point clarification.
5 When my colleague says we will have a revised translation, I take
6 it what is going to occur is that the document will be sent to CLSS, and
7 they will make a determination what the appropriate word is there,
8 whether it's Mr. Treanor's word, or whether or not they stand by what
9 they've already done. We just don't know at this point.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Of course.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I note that that is a final CLSS
13 translation at the moment. So as --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it a final translation?
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I guess the idea was that if it is a final
17 translation, then we accept it as it is.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think --
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour. CLSS have in the past reviewed
20 their final translations. They have gone back to rereview them if they
21 are asked to do so, and in this --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: And in this --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: If they are asked to do so.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Our guideline here was that if it is the final
2 CLSS, it is to be accepted as final, unless you are saying specifically
3 that you are asking that we send it back for -- for review by CLSS. At
4 this point in time, there is no such intention on the part of the Bench.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it's -- Mr. Treanor's evidence is
6 on the record, so it can -- it can stay as is. It can be marked -- can
7 it please be admitted into evidence.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted into evidence. Thank you very
10 MS. SUTHERLAND:
11 Q. Mr. Treanor, I want to take you now to December 1992. What
12 percentage of the territory did the Bosnian Serbs have in relation to
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina? Approximately.
14 A. If memory serves me correctly, I believe in the Bosnian Serb
15 Assembly it was stated that in the autumn of 1992 that Bosnian Serb
16 forces were in occupation of 70 per cent of the territory of the
18 Q. So by December 1992 were they -- were they willing to make peace
19 at this point, the Bosnian Serbs?
20 A. Yes. They declared their willingness to do so.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have Rule 65 ter number 09168 on the
22 screen, please. It's a one-page document.
23 Q. Did the Bosnian Serbs issue any declaration to this effect?
24 A. Yes, they did.
25 Q. When did that occur?
1 A. That was on the 17th of December, 1992.
2 Q. And what did they -- what did they pass? What did they issue?
3 A. They adopted a declaration proclaiming an end to the war.
4 Q. Is this the declaration that was passed at the 23rd Bosnian Serb
5 Assembly session?
6 A. Yes, this is the declaration I was referring to.
7 Q. What's the importance of this declaration in relation to borders?
8 A. Well, in that connection I would call the Court's attention to
9 numbered paragraph 3, which states that:
10 "Republika Srpska is ready to realise its borders as defined by
11 its Assembly using political means. Its present boundaries are only
13 The present boundaries of Republika Srpska are only temporary
14 pending the conclusion of a peace agreement between the parties to the
15 conflict in the former SR," that is socialist republic, "Bosnia
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be admitted into
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P204, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND:
24 Q. So we can see from that document that the Bosnian Serbs were
25 willing to negotiate. Did the Belgrade
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have Rule 65 ter number --
2 A. Yes, they did.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- 06620 on the screen, please.
4 Q. In what way did the Belgrade
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Perhaps if we could go to page 95 of the English
6 and page 70 of the B/C/S.
7 Q. What is this document, Mr. Treanor?
8 A. This document is the stenographic notes of an enlarged session of
9 the council for the reconciliation of the stands on state policies. This
10 is a body that we encountered earlier in my testimony. I think we had at
11 least one meeting in August of 1992 of this body.
12 This is an enlarged session. Some people other than members of
13 the council are present, including Serbian leaders from Croatia and
15 and many others.
16 Q. Does that include also Ratko Mladic?
17 A. Yes, he was there. And Zivota Panic is also there among the
19 In response to your first question, what did they do to encourage
20 them, they pointed out to them that they had achieved their goals to an
21 extent already that would warrant concluding peace and a peace which
22 would confirm what they had gained already, and achieved the recognition,
23 if you will, of the Bosnian Serb republic in BH.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we can see on page 95 of the
25 English translation and page 70 of the B/C/S that the speaker is
1 Slobodan Milosevic. I can't see it on the English translation just yet.
2 Can we go to the top of the page of the English translation. Could we go
3 back one page, please.
4 I'm sorry, on page 71 of the English translation. My apologies.
5 Q. Mr. Treanor, what basically -- not basically. What -- what is
6 Slobodan Milosevic saying in -- in this particular part of the meeting?
7 A. Well, it refers to the arguments that I mentioned before. I
8 could read this paragraph.
9 Q. If you could -- if you could try and summarise the facts so that
10 we don't read in this quite lengthy slab.
11 A. Yes. Well, Mr. Milosevic refers to the integrity of the Serbian
12 people. He says:
13 "We do de facto have that, because objectively and according to
14 all our relations such as political, military, cultural, and educational
15 we have that integrity."
16 Then he goes on to say the important thing at this point is to
17 get that recognised. And he states that a road which would lead to -- us
18 to de jure recognition leads through a small labyrinth. We could never
19 allow the change in a de facto situation, but through that small
20 labyrinth, we would achieve sum things, if not in half a year, then in a
21 year, if not an in a year, then two years. What do we gain? We gain
22 that we would have fewer casualties, and in that way we would save our
24 That was -- he's urging the conclusion of agreement in order to
25 get recognition of what they have obtained already. He had it recognised
1 de jure.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Treanor, can I take you to page 96 of the English
3 translation and page 95 of the B/C/S. Can you see there Radovan Karadzic
4 is speaking?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What is he saying in relation to the Neretva River
7 A. He mentions the Neretva River
8 objections that he has to the status of the negotiations, as to the
9 territories which would be granted to the Bosnian Serbs.
10 If I could just read a bit of what Radovan Karadzic says.
11 "Posavina and Podrinje are disputable." Posavina is the area along the
12 Sava River
13 "Neretva is disputable, but we can live without Neretva.
14 However, we cannot live without Podrinje and Posavina. Without them we
15 have no chance of establishing the state and integrating in the future."
16 Q. Can you just tell the Trial Chamber the importance of the
17 Posavina corridor?
18 A. I think we met the Posavina corridor before as the something --
19 corridor which would link the eastern and western halves of the Bosnian
20 Serb republic.
21 Q. And I think in answer to Judge Moloto, the Presiding Judge, asked
22 you whether --because you also, I think, mentioned Serbia in relation to
23 your answer, not only was it linking the east and the west, but it was
24 also linking the Serb-held -- the Bosnian Serb-held territory to Serbia
25 is that correct?
1 A. Yes. It would afford a link from large areas of the Republic of
2 Serbian Krajina and the western part of Republika Srpska to Serbia
3 the eastern half of Republika Srpska.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document, all those pages
5 that I took Mr. Treanor to be admitted into evidence, please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, that's page 71 and 96?
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, of the English translation and
8 70 in -- no. 70, 95 and 96 of the B/C/S and 71 and 96 of the English
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those pages are admitted into evidence. May they
11 please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That's pages would be Exhibit P205, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have Exhibit number 06673.
15 Q. Mr. Treanor, were there any more discussions with the FRY
16 leadership in January 1993 about the Vance-Owen Plan?
17 A. Yes, there were.
18 Q. When did this occur?
19 A. On the 21st of January, 1993, there was another meeting of the
20 same body.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could go to page 19 and 20 of the English
22 translation and page 21 to 22 of the B/C/S, please.
23 Q. What was discussed in -- in this meeting? I'm sorry, again who
24 was in attendance at this meeting?
25 A. This is another enlarged session of that body, so people who were
1 not members were also present, including Radovan Karadzic,
2 Nikola Koljevic, Momcilo Krajisnik, Ratko Mladic, Zdravko Tolimir.
3 Q. Again, Mr. Treanor, what was discussed at this meeting in
4 relation to the Vance Plan?
5 A. Well, they discussed further progress in the negotiations which
6 had taken place between the two meetings we've been discussing, and the
7 FRY leaders are again encouraging that an agreement be concluded.
8 Q. Who is Mr. Vladislav Jovanovic?
9 A. Mr. Jovanovic was at this time the Foreign Minister of Serbia.
10 He had been the Foreign Minister of the FRY, and he would again become
11 the Foreign Minister of the FRY.
12 Q. What did he have to say at this meeting?
13 A. At this meeting in the passage we're looking at he pointed out
14 another important aspect of the goals they were trying to achieve, not
15 just territory per se, but as he says in the paragraph beginning with
16 "Therefore," I'll just read a bit.
17 "But what is more important is make the territory that we get
18 nationally homogeneous as soon as possible but not by means of ethnic
19 cleansings and so on. Ethnic cleansing are palm-offs. So we should use
20 the peacetime process of the exchange of inhabitants, in other words
21 migration and immigration which will flow. What is important is that
22 life in future Bosnia
23 that individually -- understands that individually, that they rush off to
24 their original provinces. This is a strategic goal to which we should
25 aspire and which should be achieved."
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland --
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry, I'm just reviewing
3 my notes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, would you like the rest of the break to
5 review your notes?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, let's do that and come back at a quarter to.
8 Court adjourned.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Sutherland.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. If we could go to page 22 of the B/C/S and page 20 of the English
14 translation of the document that we were just looking at before the
16 Mr. Treanor, does Radovan Karadzic make any observations in
17 relation to what Vladislav Jovanovic was talking about?
18 A. Yes, he does.
19 Q. What does he say?
20 A. Well, in response to an observation at the end of Mr. Jovanovic's
21 speech suggesting that the process that he referred to could be achieved
22 in -- as soon as in a couple of years' time, Dr. Karadzic replies: "In a
23 year and two months if they would open the towns of Tuzla, Sarajevo
24 Zenica," which are towns that had Serbian populations that were under the
25 control of the BH government at this time.
1 Q. Does he make any reference to Zvornik?
2 A. Yes. Further down he makes reference to the situation in Zvornik
4 "I think that this which Jovanovic is talking about has already
5 happened to a huge extent. There was 50-50 of us in Zvornik. The number
6 of inhabitants of Zvornik is now the same, approximately 50.000, and they
7 are all Serbs. More than 24.000 Serbs from Zenica and Central Bosnia
8 have arrived and stopped in Zvornik."
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be admitted into
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: This page.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Well, pages 20 and 21 and 19 and 20.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Pages 19 and 20 --
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, 20 and 21 of the B/C/S and 19 and 20 of
15 the English translation.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those pages are admitted into evidence. May it
17 please be given an exhibit number.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think it may be a good idea if we
19 could also have the first page of each of those documents so that at
20 least you have some idea as to what document you're looking at.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is true. Thank you so much. If we can do
23 But now we've admitted so many of these documents without the
24 first pages. I don't know whether the registrar will be able to identify
25 them. From the beginning of Mr. Treanor's testimony, we've not been
1 taking the first pages.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think it would be a matter of
3 simply going to the documents which there are only single pages of -- of
4 lengthy documents and then adding page 1 of each he have those documents
5 where I haven't actually asked for the original page to be --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is correct. My question is I don't know
7 whether the Registry will be able to do that without any help from the
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Certainly, Your Honour. We will -- we will
10 provide them with the page numbers. We will review our notes and --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Provide them with page numbers. I'm sorry if I
13 was unclear.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: With my colleague's agreement, I would also
16 suggest that we have in evidence with regard to the pages page 21, only
17 because there is a continuation in terms of what Mr. Karadzic is saying.
18 It's only part of what he's saying, and although they've commented on
19 part of that part, at least we'll have the entire page -- the entire
20 context of which that remark is made, which is one of the things I'd
21 raised as a concern earlier on, and only because of the way the pages are
22 broken up I suggest we also put in page 21.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: I have no objections.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May those pages be given an exhibit number, Madam
1 THE REGISTRAR: So 65 ter number 06673 with English pages 19, 20,
2 and 21 and B/C/S pages 20 and 21 will been admitted as P226, Your
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the first pages.
5 THE REGISTRAR: And the first pages.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, Ms. Javier has brought to my
7 attention that it's page 21 and 22 of the B/C/S, not pages 20 and 21.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, you hear that?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. So pages 21 and 22 and page 1
10 of the B/C/S.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Yes, Madam Sutherland.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. Mr. Treanor, I want to move along three months to the beginning
15 of April, 1993.
16 Well, sorry, going back to the end of January. Between January
17 and the beginning of April, how did the negotiations develop thereafter
18 if you could very briefly explain to the Trial Chamber the position.
19 A. Certain draft agreements were signed by various of the parties
20 in -- to the conflict in BH.
21 At the end of March, three documents were signed by
22 representatives of the parties. All parties signed, all the documents
23 except for the map, which was not signed by the Bosnian Serb party.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have Rule 65 ter number 02304.01 on
25 the screen, please. And if I could have -- for the English it's the
1 second translation that's attached to the e-court Rule 65 ter number.
2 Q. Mr. Treanor, this is a transcript of a recording of the 26th
3 Bosnian Serb Assembly session held in Belica on the 2nd of April, 1993
4 If we could go to page 8 of that document of the English
5 translation and page 6 of the B/C/S.
6 Did Mr. Karadzic in this Assembly session make reference to the
7 amount of land that -- that the Bosnian Serbs possessed at that point?
8 A. They made reference to the amount of land which the Bosnian Serbs
9 owned, in his opinion, and contrasted that with the amount of territory
10 they would get according to the maps that had been offered them. In this
11 -- I would call the Court's attention to that in this passage which is at
12 the end of the second paragraph, the paragraph beginning with "First of
13 all," at the end of -- toward the end of that paragraph he says that:
14 "Although we possess 64 per cent of the land, and as a majority
15 even after the genocide in the Second World War we live on 65 per cent of
16 the territory, the former Bosnia-Herzegovina."
17 When he says "possess" there, he's talking about ownership of the
18 land. He's not talking about the military front lines at this point, but
19 he believes that the Serbs own 64 per cent of the land and have inhabited
20 65 per cent and then goes on to say that according to the current map, it
21 has been proposed that we live on just 43 per cent of the territory,
22 which is pretty obvious that almost the entire Serbian population would
23 voluntarily go to live in the areas where the Serbs have a majority. In
24 other words, any Serbs living in the 57 per cent that was not given to
25 the Bosnian Serbs would in his view have moved to the Serbian territory.
1 Q. And I think you had said earlier that by the end of December
2 1992, just prior to the declaration of the end of the war that was issued
3 by the Bosnian Serbs, they had gained 70 per cent of the territory; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes. I believe that's the figure that was given in the Bosnian
6 Serb Assembly as far as the military control of land was concerned.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be admitted into
8 evidence, those pages at least, pages 1 and 8 of the English translation
9 and pages 1 and 6 of the B/C/S.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are so admitted. May they please be given an
11 exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Those pages will be Exhibit P207, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND:
15 Q. And around this time did the Security Council issue a further
17 A. Yes. Around this time the Security Council, in fact, issued two
18 more Resolutions in connection with the situation in the former
20 Q. What was the reason for the issuing of the first Resolution? If
21 I could have Rule 65 ter number 06568 on the screen, please.
22 A. Well, in this Resolution the Security Council adduced a number of
23 reasons for its action, beginning on the first page, reaffirming, and
24 then in the second paragraph, taking note of a decision of the
25 International Court of Justice in its order of 8 April 1993, calling on
1 the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to immediately in
2 pursuance of its undertaking on the convention of prevention of the crime
3 of genocide of 9 December 1948
4 prevent the commission of the crime of genocide. And then the Security
5 Council went on to note features of the situation on the ground in BH
6 which gave a concern at this point, in particular the situation around
7 the town of Srebrenica
8 Q. Was reference also made to the FRY and the supply of material to
9 the Bosnian Serbs?
10 A. Yes. Among the demands of the Security Council was one that the
11 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and this is in the next page of the
12 English under point 3, the security counsel "Demands that the Federal
13 Republic of Yugoslavia
14 equipment, and services to the Bosnian Serb paramilitary units in the
15 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
16 Q. With respect to the reference to paramilitary organs -- units,
17 I'm sorry, the -- were the Bosnian Serb forces recognised by the
18 United Nations Security Council?
19 A. Well, I'm not sure that the Bosnians -- the Security Council
20 recognised anybody beyond Member States. They referred to the --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: If -- and I believe the witness has now answered
23 the question with regard to the specific matter asked by the Prosecution
24 if the Security Council did not recognise anything other than Member
25 States, and now it goes beyond the purview of his knowledge as to what
1 the Security Council did.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'll rephrase the question, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question has been answered.
5 Q. Sorry. I will -- can I have a moment, Your Honour.
6 Your Honour, what's the objection?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection was just that the witness was going
8 beyond the purview of both his expertise and the question by trying to
9 explain further, having said that the United Nations recognises Member
10 States only and nothing beyond.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Treanor may be in a position to answer the
12 question as to whether the United Nations Security Council does or does
13 not recognise entities as opposed to Member States. I'm sure Mr. Treanor
14 can --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: But he has answered that. He said to you that the
16 United Nations recognises Member States only, and he's not aware of
17 anything beyond that that they recognise.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I was going -- I
19 understood the question. I was going to move on, but I wondered what the
20 objection was.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection was stopping him from going beyond
22 the answer having given the answer.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: But Mr. Guy-Smith rose after he'd answered the
24 question, so I was at a loss to know what the issue was once the question
25 had been answered.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The issue was once the question had been answered
2 the witness was carrying on to comment on things that were not part of
3 the answer -- part of the question.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I may, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND:
7 Q. So, Mr. Treanor, if the United Nations Security Council does not
8 recognise entities, then similarly they would not recognise an army to
9 that entity; is that correct?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What --
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well --
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'll withdraw the question, Your Honour. Could
13 I have that document admitted, please.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted. May it please be given an
15 exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P208, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND:
19 Q. Did the United Nations Security Council impose any sanctions on
20 the FRY and, if so, why?
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have 65 ter number 06623 on the screen
23 A. At this time the Security Council threatened to take additional
24 measures restricting commerce with the FRY under certain conditions
25 which, in fact, were fulfilled. In that connection I could direct the
1 Court's attention to page 3 of the English version of the Resolution.
2 Paragraph number 10 in which the Security Council decides that the
3 provisions set forth in paragraphs 12 to 30 below shall, to the extent
4 that they establish obligations beyond those establish by its earlier
5 relevant Resolutions, come into force nine days after the date of the
6 adoption of the present Resolution, unless the Security General has
7 reported to the Council that the Bosnian Serb party has joined the other
8 parties in signing the peace plan and in implementing it and that the
9 Bosnian Serbs have ceased their military attacks.
10 Q. I suppose then, Mr. Treanor, the record says you said, "unless
11 the Security General," did you mean Secretary-General?
12 A. Secretary-General.
13 Q. And did the -- what date was this Security Council Resolution?
14 A. This Resolution was adopted on the 17th of April, 1993.
15 Q. And the previous Resolution that we saw, Exhibit P208, do you
16 recall the date of that Resolution?
17 A. It was adopted on the 16th of April, 1993.
18 Q. So with respect to the Resolution adopted on the 17th of April,
19 did the Security Council then set out the sanctions which would come into
20 effect nine days after the adoption of the present Resolution?
21 A. Yes. Those are set out further below, and reference is made to
22 paragraphs 12 to 30 below which contain restrictions against commerce
23 with the, as it puts it, the United Nations Protected Areas in the
24 Republic of Croatia
1 paragraph 13 makes reference to restrictions on the -- in relation to the
2 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can that document be admitted into
4 evidence, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: So admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P209, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND:
10 Q. How did the Bosnian Serbs react to this Resolution, the one of
11 the 17th of April? If could I have Rule 65 ter number 06750 on the
12 screen, please.
13 A. They did not sign the peace plan.
14 Q. Did the Belgrade
15 Bosnian Serbs in April 1993?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The document we have on the screen at the moment is the minutes
18 of the 29th Bosnian Serb Assembly session held on the 25th and 26th of
19 April in Bijeljina.
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Who else was present besides the Bosnian Serbs? Did -- was
22 anyone from Belgrade
23 A. Yes, and during the course of the session Vladislav Jovanovic
24 arrived. He was at this time again the Foreign Minister of the FRY.
25 Q. And what was the purpose of him being at the meeting?
1 A. He brought with him a letter from Dobrica Cosic,
2 Slobodan Milosevic, and Momir Bulatovic encouraging the Bosnian Serbs to
3 accept the peace plan.
4 Q. And what was the position taken by the Bosnian Serbs?
5 A. The Assembly, in response to the letter, expressing its surprise
6 did two things. It took a vote on the plan which, according to the
7 minutes of the meeting --
8 Q. If we could go to page 2 of the --
9 A. It would be on the next page of the English yes.
10 Q. Page 2 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.
11 A. Toward the bottom of that page. Now the middle. A short
12 paragraph is there, and I would draw the Court's attention to that. It
13 simply notes that all 73 deputies present voted against accepting the
14 Vance-Owen maps. Then the second thing the Assembly did is described at
15 the bottom of the page where they -- it's mentioned that they adopted a
16 decision to hold a referendum in the RS on specifically that issue.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be admitted into
18 evidence, pages 1, 2, and 3 of the English translation and page 1 and 2
19 of the B/C/S.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those pages are admitted. May they please be
21 given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P210, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes --
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the whole document is only three
25 pages in B/C/S and in English, so --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, you've given us three pages in English
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. So for completeness, can the whole
4 document of the B/C/S be admitted, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, will you please do that.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. So the Bosnian Serbs decided to hold a referendum among its
10 citizens on the question of the Vance-Owen Plan. What was the FRY
11 leadership's response to this position that RS, the Republika Srpska,
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have Rule 65 ter number 02306.01 on the
14 screen, please. And I need the second document which is attached to that
15 Rule 65 ter number in e-court, and so it's not the -- I'm advised that
16 it's not the document marked with the ERN number with "-EDT" at the end
17 of it. It's the other one.
18 Q. Mr. Treanor, this is the transcript of the 30th Bosnian Serb
19 assembly session held Jahorina on the 5th and 6th of May 1993.
20 A. That's correct. It's the 30th session, and not the 39th session
21 as described in the translation.
22 Q. Who was in attendance at this meeting from the FRY leadership?
23 A. Present at this meeting were the same people that signed the
24 letter that reference has been made to, that is Dobrica Cosic,
25 Slobodan Milosevic, and Momir Bulatovic.
1 Q. Did all three of these gentlemen speak at the meeting?
2 A. Yes, they did.
3 Q. What did Dobrica Cosic say?
4 A. He gave a short speech.
5 Q. So first of all what -- what -- why did the Serb leadership
6 attend this Bosnian Serb Assembly session?
7 A. Their purpose was the same as the letter which was to encourage
8 the Bosnian Serbs to accept the plan which Radovan Karadzic had
9 provisionally done a few days before at a meeting in Athens, but only
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have page 26 of the English
12 translation and page 12 of the B/C/S, please.
13 Q. What did -- what did Dobrica Cosic have to say at this Assembly
15 A. Well, he encouraged acceptance of the plan, and he noted the --
16 that at this point the Serbs were at a turning point in their history.
17 If I could direct the Court's attention to the fourth paragraphs --
18 fourth paragraph of his speech beginning with.
19 "We are truly at a turning point in our history. That historic
20 turning point has often been like a temptation in our past. We have
21 shared a common goal for two centuries, the struggle for liberation and
22 the union of the Serbian people. This is the seventh war to be waged
23 with this goal."
24 Q. And what did Slobodan Milosevic put forth at this meeting? And
25 if we could go to page 163 of the English translation and 78 of the
1 B/C/S, please.
2 A. He also encouraged the Assembly to accept the plan and also
3 addressed the issue of the unity of the Serbs.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could just pause there. If Your Honours
5 wish to see where Slobodan Milosevic begins his speech, it's at page 157
6 of the English translation and page 76 of the B/C/S.
7 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Treanor. Can you continue.
8 A. I would draw the Court's attention in that connection to two
9 passages on page 163 of the English translation. The first passage
10 begins on the line starting with question mark use, and the first
11 sentence reads:
12 "Above all the question now arises as to how we shall link the
13 economies of the provinces that are ours. Since you are deputies you
14 probably know that we have established a single-payment transfer system,
15 that we are moving towards a single currency, that we are moving towards
16 every possible link and transaction between the economies, that we are
17 moving towards a stabilised, a whole single economic areas where the
18 Serbian lands here will be from the aspect of the economy and culture and
19 education and everything else. Karadzic spoke of the same primer, et
20 cetera. Therefore, not a lot of thought is required in order to envisage
21 the direction that this process -- that process needs to go in."
22 Q. You mentioned two paragraphs. What was the second section on
23 that page?
24 A. Well, a little bit below he continues:
25 "Finally I should like to say to you don't talk to us who have
1 been worrying about all your problems all this time, about feeling
2 abandoned. We didn't just sit -- sit about worrying about them but
3 resolved them and helped with all our might and with everything that we
4 could at the cost of great deprivation to a Serbia of 10 million, and we
5 shall continue to help you. There's no question about that. But don't
6 tell us that you feel abandoned, because that is incorrect."
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may those documents -- those pages
8 be admitted into evidence?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are so --
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's page -- sorry, page 126 and 163 of the
11 English translation and pages 112 and 78 of the B/C/S.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess you also referred the Chamber to page 157
13 for the Milosevic's speech. Don't you want that in?
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's -- Your Honour, that's where -- the page
15 where Slobodan Milosevic's name is first mentioned, but we don't seek to
16 have that page into evidence. It was simply if you wanted to see on the
17 screen where his name was first mentioned as he began the speech.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Sutherland. Those
19 pages are therefore admitted into evidence. May they please be given an
20 exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P211, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: And, Your Honour, we will have a revised page 1
24 of the English translation where it says the 39th session will be amended
25 to the 30th session.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: But -- yeah, thank you so much for doing that, but
2 what is the status of that translation? Is it --
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's a draft translation, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's a draft translation.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: By CLSS.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: By CLSS. Thank you. Could you ask them to revise
7 it, please.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. Mr. Treanor, what did the Bosnian Serbs do as a result of the FRY
10 leadership's pleas?
11 A. Well, they maintained their position and -- they being the
12 Assembly maintained its position and went ahead with the plebiscite that
13 it -- they'd already called for and scheduled it for the middle of May,
14 and it was, in fact, held and rejected the plan.
15 Q. Did the Security Council take any measures in relation to the
16 situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina after the expiration of the deadline they
17 had imposed in the earlier Resolution?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have 65 ter number 06622 on the screen,
21 Q. What measures did the Security Council take and when?
22 A. Well, on the 6th of May, 1993, it adopted Resolution 824 in which
23 it extended the --
24 Q. If we could go to --
25 A. -- idea of safe areas to cities and towns in BH beyond
2 Q. Could we go to page 2 of the English translation and page 3 of
3 the B/C/S.
4 A. I would call the Court's attention to paragraph 3 in that
5 connection, which I will refrain from reading, but it does make reference
6 to the -- the capital of BH and other threatened areas, in particular,
7 the towns of Tuzla
8 Q. The capital of BH being Sarajevo
9 A. Yes. They should all be treated as safe areas.
10 Q. And did it make any declarations in relation to these safe areas?
11 I mean further declarations?
12 A. Yes, in paragraph 4 it declared what should be observed in the
13 safe areas, for instance, A, the immediate cessation of armed attacks or
14 any hostile act against these safe areas and the withdrawal of all
15 Bosnian Serb military or paramilitary units from these towns to a
16 distance wherefrom they cease to constitute a menace to their security
17 and that of their inhabitance to be monitored by United Nations military
18 observers, and it goes on.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be admitted into
20 evidence, please.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
22 please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P212, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Madam Sutherland.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND:
1 Q. Mr. Treanor, you discussed earlier in your evidence a meeting, a
2 Bosnian Serb Assembly session that was held on the 5th and 6th of May
3 1993 in Jahorina. Did Slobodan Milosevic, who was in attendance at that
4 meeting, did he report back to the FRY leadership about the meeting that
5 was held in Jahorina on the 5th and 6th of May?
6 A. Yes, he did.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have Rule 65 ter number 06980.01.
8 This is the redacted version of that exhibit. And if we could have page
9 29 of the B/C/S and page 31 of the English translation.
10 Q. Mr. Treanor, what is this document?
11 A. This document represents shorthand notes of a session of the
12 Supreme Defence Council of the FRY held on the 2nd of June, 1993.
13 Q. And what did Slobodan Milosevic say in relation to the
14 discussions that he'd had with the Serbs at the Assembly session?
15 A. He told the people present at the meeting certain things that he
16 had told the Bosnian Serb leaders, and in that connection I would draw
17 the Court's attention to page 31 of the translation, which is page 29 in
18 the original.
19 Q. Mr. Treanor, are you able to tell the Court what Milosevic said?
20 A. Yes. At the top of the page.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we go to the top of the page in -- in the
22 English translation, please.
23 Q. Now, reading from -- Mr. Treanor, you can see the redacted text
24 on the screen.
25 A. Yes, beginning with "I used to tell them," that is the Bosnian
1 Serb leaders, "if our economy fails, who will you rely on? They could
2 have resolved the problem by means of the solution that has been offered.
3 They could have accepted it," that is the peace plan, "which would have
4 annulled the second round of sanctions. The sanctions would have failed
5 they would not have been implemented while the Muslim-Croat conflict in
6 Central Bosnia
7 Q. And what, in your view, did Slobodan Milosevic -- what was the
8 reference to, "If we economically collapse, who will you lean on?" What
9 do you understand that to mean?
10 A. He's referring to the Bosnian Serbs.
11 Q. "If we," being the FRY, "economically collapse."
12 A. Yes. "If our economy fails, the FRY, who will you, the Bosnian
13 Serbs, rely on?"
14 Q. I take you now to a few months after that date.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour, can that page be
16 admitted into evidence, please.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The page is admitted into evidence. May it please
18 be given an exhibit number.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Page 1 and page 31 of the English translation
20 and page 1 and page 29 of the B/C/S.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Those pages.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Those pages will be Exhibit P213, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND:
25 Q. Mr. Treanor, do you infer from this comment, "if we economically
1 collapse, who will you lean on," that the Bosnian Serbs had been up until
2 that point relying on the FRY lead -- the FRY?
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: The document speaks for itself. The statement
4 speaks for itself.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: I withdraw my question, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Treanor, did the FRY continue to support the RS military, the
7 Republika Srpska military? If I could have 65 ter number
8 [overlapping speakers] --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- 02144.01 on the screen, please.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: 021001?
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: 02144.01.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you say that again please, ma'am.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: 02144.01.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, for the record that's already
17 admitted as Exhibit P200.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Oh, thank you.
19 Except that only certain pages were admitted --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- when the document was last used, and --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, as I see it, Exhibit 200 doesn't have the
23 .01. It's just 02144, page 354.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it does have .01 at the end of it.
25 P200. The Rule 65 ter number is the same as this one. Back when we
1 discussed it before, only page 354 was admitted into evidence, the
2 statement by General Gvero, the one page of his statement.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Okay.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I withdraw my last question.
5 Q. Mr. Treanor, in relation to this document, as you know it's the
6 transcript of the continuation of the 34th session of the Bosnian Serb
7 Assembly held in Jahorina over quite a number of dates. Did
8 Radovan Karadzic make any reference to the strategic goals in this
9 Assembly session?
10 A. Yes, he did.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we go to page 14 to 15 of the English
12 translation and pages 13 to 14 of the B/C/S, please.
13 Q. What did Dr. Karadzic say in that regard?
14 A. In that regard I would draw the Court's attention to the
15 paragraph toward the bottom of the page beginning with "Strategic goals."
16 That paragraph reads:
17 "Strategic goals adopted by this Assembly have been or will be
18 achieved to the fullest extent, just to remind those who do not know it.
19 This Assembly reached strategic goals of Serb people, which have become,
20 in a certain way, our tasks, our obligation to realise them, but those
21 were the goals we aimed at and the goals we aim at now to achieve
22 whenever it would be possible."
23 Then he goes on as, I would call the Court's attention, to
24 describe each of the goals. Going over to the next page.
25 Q. And this is in August 1993; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. This speech was actually given on the first day of the
2 session, on the 27th of August, 1993.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may those pages be admitted into
4 evidence as part as P200.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are so admitted. May they please be given an
6 exhibit number. Oh, as part of 200? Okay they will go in as part of
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. Mr. Treanor, in your review of documentation, have you viewed any
10 correspondence between the Bosnian Serb political leadership and General
11 Momcilo Perisic?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have 65 ter number 00599 on the screen,
14 please. It's a one-page document in B/C/S and English.
15 Q. What is this document and when is it dated?
16 A. This document is a letter from Momcilo Krajisnik, who is the
17 president of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, to General Momcilo Perisic, dated
18 27 September 1993
19 Q. And what is -- what is the substance of the letter?
20 A. Well, the letter refers to a meeting in Belgrade and a telephone
21 conversation, a conversation -- the telephone conversation also took
22 place on the 27th of September, and it goes on to refer to assistance.
23 "The assistance would be sent to the Sarajevo area, because in
24 the coming two-year period the battle for our part of Sarajevo is
1 Then he goes on to thank General Perisic.
2 "General Perisic, you have done a lot for these people. We are
3 now in such a situation that we have to ask for help, but the time will
4 come when we will be able to repay the debt."
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document admitted?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The exhibit is admitted into evidence. May it
7 please be given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P214, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND:
11 Q. Mr. Treanor, did the FRY continue to provide military assistance
12 to the Bosnian Serbs?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Have you seen any new documents that reflect the ultimate goal of
15 the FRY leadership?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did General Perisic have knowledge of this goal?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, at this time I would ask to go into
20 closed session to deal with a document that's the subject of protective
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want closed session or private session?
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: It needs to be closed session, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
25 [Closed session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in closed session.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND:
5 Q. Mr. Treanor, what was the goal of the FRY leadership?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have 65 ter number 09190.01 on the
7 screen, please.
8 A. That goal is stated a number of times in the document we're
9 looking at.
10 Q. First, what is this document?
11 A. This document is a directive for the use of the Yugoslav army, RS
12 army in the Serb Armija -- army of Krajina. It was issued by president
13 Zoran Lilic on 14 November 1993
14 Q. In what capacity did Zoran Lilic issue this decision -- this
16 A. As president of the FRY.
17 Q. Can you please continue. I -- I interrupted you to get the --
18 the date of the document and the name of the document.
19 A. The goal is referred to a number of times in this document. In
20 that connection I would call the Court's attention to the first paragraph
21 of the body of the document.
22 Q. And what is the goal?
23 A. Toward the end of that paragraph reference is made to "...two new
24 Serbian states which are determined to fight the war imposed on them in
25 order to defend their republics and establish conditions for the creation
1 of a single state of the Serbian people."
2 Q. You said that this goal was referred to a number of times in this
4 A. Yes. In that connection I could call the Court's attention --
5 Q. Go to page 7 of the English translation and page 7 of the B/C/S.
6 A. Under Roman II, use of armed forces, 1, General objectives. The
7 second paragraph states:
8 "Defend territorial integrity of the Serbian States west of the
10 liberate parts of Serbian territories with Serbian majority, create
11 conditions for the establishment of a single state of the Serbian people,
12 prevent creation of Greater Croatia and a compact Islamic state on the
13 territory of the former Yugoslavia
14 Q. If I could take you to page 9 of the English translation and page
15 8 of the B/C/S.
16 A. Yes. I would call the Court's attention to the middle of the
17 page, the paragraph beginning "In the second," which word is bolded. The
18 second referring to the second stage of operations.
19 "In the second, after the beginning of the all-out HV aggression
20 on the RSK and armed rebellion in crisis regions of the FRY, by the
21 unified use of armed forces of the Serbian people crush and defeat enemy
22 forces and create conditions for establishing a single state of the
23 Serbian people."
24 Q. And then if we could go to page 12 of the English translation and
25 also page 12 of the B/C/S.
1 A. At the very bottom of the page under IV, combat operations
2 support, 1, moral guidance and psychological support.
3 "Ensure that all activities on boosting, maintaining, and
4 reinforcing combat morale of the army proceed from the firm determination
5 of the state and political leadership of the Serbian people to protect
6 the people, defend territory and create conditions for the formation of a
7 single state of the Serbian people. Pursuant to this, intensify
8 information and propaganda activities and build united public support."
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may this document be admitted into
10 evidence. It's -- it's quite lengthy, so I would ask that the pages that
11 I have taken Mr. Treanor to be admitted, and that is -- well, perhaps so
12 that Your Honours can put it into context, the first 12 pages of the
13 document in English --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: But why the first 12 pages? I understand context
15 where I -- why do we need so many pages for context?
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Well, you don't, Your Honour. It's just that I
17 took Mr. Treanor to pages 1, 2, 7, 9 and 12. 1, 2, 7, 9, and 12, so I
18 took him to 5 of the first 12 pages.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document -- those pages are admitted into
20 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, since the document was used in
22 closed session, should it be --
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: And under seal.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal. Thank you.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P215 under seal, Your
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, is that just the pages I took
4 Mr. Treanor to, or is it the first 12 pages of the document?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The first 12 pages.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.
7 Your Honour, we can go back into open session.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber move into open session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND:
13 Q. Mr. Treanor, did the Republika Srpska or the Bosnian Serb
14 leadership continue to be satisfied with what they had achieved on the
16 A. Well, no.
17 Q. Why was this?
18 A. They were not satisfied. The Bosnian Serb was not satisfied,
19 which is why they'd rejected the Vance Plan. Negotiations did continue.
20 A plan had been formulated in the fall of 1993, known as the
21 Owen-Stoltenberg Plan. That was signed by the Bosnian Serbs and the
22 Bosnian Croats but not by the Bosnian Muslims, and subsequent to that,
23 negotiations continued.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have Rule 65 ter number 02336 on the
25 screen, please.
1 Q. This is a transcript of the 37th session of the Bosnian Serb
2 Assembly held in Pale on the 10th of January, 1994. At this session does
3 Radovan Karadzic make explicit reference to the strategic goals?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. If I could take you to page 108 of the English translation and
6 page 80 of the B/C/S.
7 A. Yes. I would call the Court's attention to a short passage in
8 the middle -- toward the beginning -- toward the top of that page. The
9 line begins with "Themselves as Yugoslavs," and then continues:
10 "Believe me we are the winners so far compared to what we could
11 have got from it. We could have got the separation. The first strategic
12 goal was separation, not occupation of 60 per cent of it. The second
13 strategic goal was to get the land in one piece interconnected, and we
14 got the corridor. So that was the strategic goal. As the opposing
15 faction, we won our state and that was accepted. And secondly, as
16 winners we said, 'Fine. You want 33.3 per cent, we will determine which
17 33.3 per cent you can get.'"
18 Q. What was Radovan Karadzic referring to when he said that? He was
19 referring to the state of the negotiations at that particular time,
20 emphasising what they could achieve at that particular time.
21 Unfortunately, the negotiations did not result in -- in any agreement at
22 this time or indeed for months and months to come.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that page be admitted into
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's so admitted. May it please be given an
1 exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P216, Your Honours.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, pages 1 and 108 of the English
4 translation and pages 1 and 80 of the B/C/S.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. Thank you very much.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND:
7 Q. Mr. Treanor, I want to move on four months into April 1994. At
8 this time did the Belgrade
9 activity in Bosnia-Herzegovina and, if so, why?
10 A. The FRY leadership?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Yes. The FRY leadership continued to favour the conclusion of
14 Q. Why was that?
15 A. Well, for much the same reasons that had been adduced before,
16 that is, they thought the important thing was to get what had been
17 achieved recognised by the international community, and they were also
18 suffering under the sanctions at this time.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have 65 ter number 06639.01, which is
20 the redacted version of this document, on the screen, please.
21 Q. Mr. Treanor, we can see that this is the stenographic notes of
22 the 20th session of the SDC
23 What was discussed at this session in relation to Bosnia and
25 A. Well, certainly the points that I just mentioned were discussed
1 at this session.
2 Q. If I could -- if we could go to page 6 of the English translation
3 and page 4 of the B/C/S.
4 Mr. Treanor, did General Perisic have anything to say at this
5 meeting --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- about what you've just discussed?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What did he say?
10 A. He -- he addressed one of the points I mentioned, noting that at
11 the bottom of the page, the paragraph beginning with "Fourth."
12 "Fourth, our chances to control the crisis are based on the
13 following: that we continue disrupting their scenario," that is the
14 enemy's scenario, "as we have done so far. We have almost completely
15 realised our objectives with weapons. We must maintain this and with
16 wise politics before the international community manage somehow to have
17 it all endorsed."
18 Q. And Slobodan Milosevic make any -- have any discussion on these
20 A. Yes, he did.
21 Q. If we could go to page 7 of the English translation and page 8 of
22 the B/C/S.
23 A. Those pages do not correspond.
24 Q. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Before we go to Mr. Milosevic, there's
25 another -- there's another portion of these -- this session that I'd like
1 to take you to where Mr. Perisic is speaking, and it's on page 7 of the
2 English translation and page 5 of the B/C/S.
3 Mr. Treanor, what does Mr. Perisic say in relation to the -- the
4 issue of Gorazde?
5 A. Just below --
6 Q. Sorry, if I could take you to the -- the paragraph starting "The
7 measures which in our opinion ought to be undertaken."
8 A. Yes. At this portion he's recommending certain measures, and
9 reference to Gorazde is made among them.
10 Q. What are the measures that he is discussing?
11 A. Well, in the paragraph beginning with "The measures, which in our
12 opinion, ought to be taken," he mentions developing a broad diplomatic
13 activity with all participants of the Yugoslav crisis, with the objective
14 of crowning the war results and verifying them by international
16 In the second paragraph he recommends approaching countries and
17 individuals who favour us, saying "we should encourage import of weapons
18 and military equipment which in event of the escalation of the conflict,
19 we would use for inflicting the greatest possible losses on the enemy,
20 especially hitting air targets because anti-aircraft defence is far
21 weaker than it should be."
22 And the next brief paragraph he addresses Gorazde mentioning that
23 the bombing of positions in the Gorazde sector ought to be used for
24 strengthening the unity of all forces defending the national interest --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel slow down, please. -- reading
1 for the interpreters, please.
2 THE WITNESS: The bombing of positions in the Gorazde sector
3 ought to be used for strengthening the unity of all forces defending the
4 national interest of the Serbian and Montenegrin peoples.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that a convenient point, madam?
6 SUTHERLAND: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will take a break and come back at 12.30.
8 Court adjourned.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Sutherland.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Treanor, before the break we were discussing the stenographic
14 notes of the 20th session of the SDC
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we have page 7 of the English translation
16 and page 8 of the B/C/S, please.
17 Q. What did Slobodan Milosevic say at this meeting in regard to the
18 points that you were discussing before the break?
19 A. Well, he advanced the idea that he thought it would be a good
20 idea to freeze military operations in Bosnia-Herzegovina at this point.
21 Q. Can I take you to the paragraph beginning "Our first-rate goal at
22 the moment --" starting "As for this situation..."
23 A. Yes, I see that.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Registry have informed me that we're
25 actually on page 12 of the English translation.
1 Q. What does he say in relation to the territory that the forces
2 control at the moment or back in April 1994?
3 A. Well, in this paragraph he notes that at this point they were in
4 a situation when "...our forces control 72 per cent of the territory,"
5 and he thought that would create a very good position for finalising
7 Q. Does he make any mention in this session to the Drina -- to the
8 Drina River
9 A. Yes, he does. A little bit further below in that same paragraph
10 he makes reference to the Drina
11 Q. And briefly, what does say about that?
12 A. He says:
13 "I believe that we are moving toward a solution in general cease
14 of hostilities on the establishment of the front demarcation of the -- of
15 the front demarcation line, including the right Drina bank near Gorazde
16 because it would not be in our interest to abandon the right bank of the
18 Q. And does he say what the political solution has to be based on?
19 A. Yes. He sees as part of the overall solution at this point the
20 lifting of sanctions against the FRY.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may those pages that I've taken
22 Mr. Treanor to be admitted into evidence. That is pages 1, 2, 6, and 12
23 of the English translation and 1, 4, 5, 8, and 9 of the B/C/S.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those pages are admitted into evidence. May they
25 please be given an exhibit number.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, 12 and 13 of the English translation.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Those pages will be Exhibit P217, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND:
5 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that it was Slobodan Milosevic's
6 position that they -- that the Bosnian Serbs should freeze the combat
7 activity. What was -- what was the Bosnian Serbs' position in respect of
8 that? Did they agree?
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter number 02150.01 on the
10 screen, please.
11 A. Not at this point at which -- during which negotiations were
12 still proceeding.
13 Q. If I can take you to the document that's on the screen now. It's
14 the minutes of the 40th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly held in
15 Brcko on the 10th of May, 1994.
16 Did Radovan Karadzic make reference to the strategic goals during
17 this session?
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we have page 41 of the English translation
19 and page 37 of the B/C/S.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I'm sorry, I seem to have directed you to the wrong page.
22 A. I think it's 36 in the English -- I'm sorry, 41, which is 36 in
23 the original.
24 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what Karadzic said at that session
25 in relation to the strategic goals?
1 A. Yes. I direct the Court's attention to the first full paragraph
2 in the English translation, and the line beginning with "percentage." He
4 "We have to get out to get the state which we would verify. We
5 have to end this war as soon as possible, and believe me, we often have
6 the difficult discussion and conversations with our army. There is no
7 pay that we can take the whole Bosnia
8 economy we need for such project. It is not the strategic goal of this
9 Assembly. The goal is to separate ourselves. We did not say, then, how
10 much a percentage, nor did we outline the borders. But we said we wanted
11 to separate, and strategic goals would be territorial connection with the
12 Drina River
14 Q. And at that stage of proceedings in May 1994, what -- where were
15 the negotiations at?
16 A. They were more or less at a standstill at this point.
17 Q. And why was that?
18 A. Well, the previous plans had been adopted, had been accepted now
19 by one side, now another, and another agreement accepted by different
20 side but rejected by another. So everyone had stated their positions at
21 this point and were sticking to them.
22 At this point in the spring of 1994, the so-called Contact Group
23 was formed to try to get the process going again. The Contact Group was
24 a group of states including Russia
25 countries to try to break the logjam, if you will, that had occurred in
1 the ICFY process, that is the process that was under the auspices of the
2 Conference on the Former Yugoslavia
3 Q. What was the percentage of the territory that the Bosnian Serbs
4 were being offered at this time?
5 A. Well, the Contact Group was about to offer them a map that would
6 give them 49 per cent of the territory.
7 Q. And you had made mention earlier that they had achieved through
8 their combat forces 70 per cent of the territory; is that correct?
9 A. Right. I think that we just saw someone saying even 72 per cent
10 by the spring of 1994.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may the pages that I've taken
12 Mr. Treanor be admitted into evidence? That's page 1 and 41 of the
13 English translation and page 1 and 37 of the B/C/S, please.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are so admitted. May they please be given an
15 exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 212 -- 218, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND:
19 Q. Now I'd like to take you to the middle of the year 1994. Did the
20 Bosnian Serb leadership have further discussions with the FRY leadership
21 re: The Contact Group plan?
22 A. Yes, they did.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have Rule 65 ter number 02151.01.
24 Q. Mr. Treanor, this is a document -- a transcript of the 42nd
25 Bosnian Serb Assembly session held in Pale on the 18th and 19th of July,
1 1994. Who was in attendance at this Assembly session from the FRY
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, I withdraw that question.
4 A. I don't think anyone from the leadership was there, the FRY
6 Q. In relation to the further discussions that the FRY leadership
7 had with the Bosnian Serbs about the Contact Group plan, when did that
9 A. There had been a meeting early in the morning of the 18th of
11 Q. Do you -- are you aware of what was discussed at that meeting?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry, are we referring to a meeting wherein
14 there was a document? A document -- that meeting was documented or was
15 this a chitchat over coffee? I'm not sure exactly where we are.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: The document that's on the screen is the
17 transcript of the 42nd Bosnian Serb Assembly session.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's correct, but the witness then said there
19 had been a meeting also early that morning.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. I'm just about to ask a follow-up
21 question, Your Honour, in relation to how he knows of that meeting. May
22 I proceed?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, you may, ma'am.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND:
25 Q. Mr. Treanor, how do you know there was a meeting at 4.00 a.m.
1 A. Momcilo Krajisnik refers to that meeting during this meeting.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have page 28 of the English
3 translation and page 115 of the B/C/S on the screen, please.
4 Q. What does Momcilo Krajisnik say at the Assembly in relation to
5 the meeting that was had at 4.00 a.m.
6 A. There are two paragraphs on the page we're looking at that relate
7 to that meeting. At the top of the page Mr. Krajisnik said:
8 "We'd had discussions with representatives of Serbia
10 think that we have to accept it. We said, we do not have to. We cannot
11 accept it. We led the way for our people, and we will lead them as long
12 as we could. When we cannot, then Kecmanovic will come in," he is
13 another Serbian politician, "and let him take the lead and sign it then,
14 if the people accept it. General Perisic was there, as well as our
15 General Mladic, Tolimir. Everyone in our delegation said that we did not
16 accept it. None of us said that this could be. But you should
17 understand that we have to find a way - it is not enough that we just say
18 no, and we do not care about it anymore. There is no we do not care. We
19 have to win. We want a state. We do not want half the Serbs dead. I am
20 not afraid of their bombing. They will not bomb. We have to find a way,
21 have to continue the negotiations."
22 And below he says a little bit more about the meeting, in
23 relation to the meeting, two paragraphs below that beginning with:
24 "Chairman, I will try to be as much open as I can, though it is
25 not correct that I am this much open. We have problems in getting
1 supplies from Serbia
2 this is on purpose or not. I know that all the resources are used up,
3 and we can by no means not to talk with Serbia, nor would it be good. We
4 went to talk. It is true that Serbia
5 Mr. Milosevic were there. They presented a complete picture. We said
6 that everything was like that, the partisans and people who fought
7 between '41 and '45, they fought without a single bullet and without
8 weapons. We will fight against the Muslims, and we'll snatch their
9 weapons. We cannot accept this because this is a unitary Bosnia. Our
10 standpoint was clear."
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that page of that document be
12 admitted into evidence, please. That is page 1 and page 28 of the
13 English translation and page 1 and page 115 of the B/C/S.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those pages are admitted into evidence. May they
15 please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P219, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND:
19 Q. Shortly after that meeting did the Bosnian Serb leadership issue
20 a declaration of their objectives regarding the Contact Group plan
22 A. Yes, they did.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter number 02153 on the
24 screen, please.
25 Q. When did they do this?
1 A. I believe the original declaration was adopted at the 42nd
2 session that we just considered, and they expanded on that declaration,
3 adopting what they call explanations that were to be part of the
4 declaration at the next session, the 43rd session.
5 Q. If we could go to page 5 of the English translation and page 6 of
6 the B/C/S, please. And were the -- the explanations read into the
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And can you please summarise the statement of reasons for the
10 Court. What were they saying in their -- the statement of reasons that
11 was to be attached to the declaration?
12 A. Yes. Very briefly, they -- the Bosnian Serb Assembly offered to
13 continue negotiations on the basis of the Contact Group plan, and under
14 point 2 I would point out that they state:
15 "In the belief that the international community will ensure that
16 the following shall be achieved through these negotiations: A, further
17 adjustments to the map; B, demarcation in the city of Sarajevo and the
18 province of Sarajevo
19 Republika Srpska; D, the exercise of the right of peoples to
20 self-determination, including the right of linking up as a state with
21 neighbouring states; and, E, an agreement on the cessation of
22 hostilities, implementation of the plan, and lifting sanctions.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may those pages be admitted into
24 evidence. That is pages 1 and 5 of the English translation and pages 1
25 and 6 of the B/C/S.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are so admitted. They may be given an
2 exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: They will be Exhibit P220, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND:
6 Q. Following this statement of reasons and the declaration, did the
7 FRY leadership assert any pressure on the Bosnian Serb leadership to
8 accept the Contact Group plan?
9 A. Yes, they did.
10 Q. What kind of pressure?
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have Rule 65 ter number 06828 on the
12 screen, please.
13 Q. Go ahead.
14 A. At the beginning of August, Slobodan Milosevic issued a public
15 statement in connection with that matter, and the FRY government made a
16 decision, which was also made public.
17 Q. What was the public statement that Milosevic issued?
18 A. In a statement published in the Belgrade
19 August, he said, among other things, that they, the Bosnian Serbs --
20 Q. I'm sorry, if we could go to page 4 and 5 of the English
21 translation. It's on page 1 of the B/C/S. It's the article on the
22 right-hand side of the page, top right-hand side of the page.
23 Go on, Mr. Treanor.
24 A. In the paragraph toward the middle of the page beginning with
25 "They reject a peace," he said:
1 "They reject a peace in a moment when they have a recognised
2 Republika Srpska which encompasses half of the territory of the former
3 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and by accepting peace sanctions would be lifted
4 for those without whom they would not even exist."
5 And he goes on to say something about the measures they're going
6 to take in view of the situation, which is on the next page, toward the
7 very end of the statement.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if pages 4 and 5 of that document
9 could be admitted into evidence.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are so admitted. May they please be given an
11 exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: They will be Exhibit P221, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND:
15 Q. What are the measures that are going to be taken in -- in view of
16 the situation?
17 A. Well, as I mentioned, the federal government adopted a decision
18 on the 4th of August, which was published in the press on the 5th of
20 Q. And, if I understood you, then the measures were going to be that
21 they were going to sever relations; is that right?
22 A. I didn't say that yet.
23 Q. Was that -- what was their position?
24 A. Well, the -- a statement was issued at --
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, if I could -- if we could -- no,
1 sorry. I apologise, Your Honour. Could I have 65 ter number 09175 on
2 the screen, please.
3 Q. What measures did the FRY leadership take in relation to the
4 Republika Srpska at this time?
5 A. According to the press report that I referred to on the 5th of
6 August, in the middle of the page in English or -- it says "Belgrade
7 We can see that the report says:
8 "The federal government took the decision in a meeting yesterday
9 to cut all political and economic ties with Republika Srpska."
10 And then it goes on to quote a statement that was issued after
11 the meeting to that effect.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be admitted into
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P222, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND:
19 Q. Did this, in fact, occur, to your knowledge?
20 A. There were certain measures that were taken, yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were relations cut off economically and
23 THE WITNESS: I think we'll be seeing documents shortly that
24 would indicate that that was not the case.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The answer is that they didn't. They didn't
1 cut --
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- economic and political relations.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. That would be the short answer.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's try and be short, and concise and to the
7 Yes, Madam Sutherland.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. Mr. Treanor, notwithstanding this apparent rupture in relations,
10 did Republika Srpska leadership still want one state?
11 A. With the other Serbs, yes.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter number 06735 on the
13 screen, please.
14 Q. Did they issue any proposals in relation to this?
15 A. Yes, they did.
16 Q. When was this?
17 A. On the 18th of August, 1994.
18 Q. What was the proposal?
19 A. A -- it was a proposition for the integration of the Republic of
21 Krajina, into one state adopted by the Assemblies of the Republika
22 Srpska. I think we're seeing this translated as "Republic of Serbia
23 but it's Republika Srpska, and the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure I understand that answer. You
25 say that the transcript says it was a proposition for the integration of
1 the Republic of Serbia
2 in the Serbian Krajina into one state, adopted by the assemblies of the
3 Republika Srpska. What does that mean, that last phrase, adopted by the
4 Assemblies of Republika Srpska?
5 THE WITNESS: The Assemblies of the Republika Srpska and of the
6 Republic of Serbia
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: But that is what that sentence is saying?
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could --
9 THE WITNESS: I think the second -- I thought I said after
10 Republika Srpska, the Republic of Serbian
11 here Republika Srpska is translated as Republic of Serbia
12 translated further on --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give the correct answer to that question
14 now, just afresh?
15 THE WITNESS: The proposition for the integration of the Republic
16 of Serbia
17 of the Serbian Krajina into one state was adopted by the Assemblies of
18 Republika Srpska and of the Republic of Serbian
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 Now, if I may just ask, are you able to tell us from where the
21 proposition came or from whom it came?
22 THE WITNESS: Well, it's based on the right to national
23 self-determination, et cetera. It says that the Assembly of Republika
24 Srpska and the Assembly of Republic of Serbian Krajina decided to. So it
25 came from them.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it was not a proposition made to them. It was
2 a decision by them.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes. They're making the proposition in effect
4 to -- if I could direct your attention to paragraph number 1 under the
5 title of the proposition, being the next page in English. Next page in
6 English, please. Where it states:
7 "We ask the Assembly," "we" being the Assemblies of Republika
8 Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina, "We ask the Assembly of the
9 Republic of Serbia
10 proposition for the integration into one state ..."
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. So they are propositioning.
12 Thank you so much.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I note this is a final translation
14 from CLSS, but given the differences in translation, I would ask that we
15 ask CLSS to review this translation.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I thought Mr. Treanor has now given us
17 testimony that is in line with the translation. He has corrected what
18 was said there earlier.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Well, Your Honour, if -- if I may, at the top of
20 page 1 of the -- of the English translation, it says the Republic of
21 Serbia National Assembly on the first page, on the left-hand side.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And if we can have a look at the first page,
23 please. Republic of Serbia
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: And Mr. Treanor's saying that that should be
25 Republika Srpska National Assembly, and then on the right-hand side you
1 have the Republic of Serbian Krajina Assembly, and then it's going to the
2 National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia
3 the Republic of Montenegro
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, I -- do you endorse that, Mr. Treanor?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It should be the republic of --
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Republika Srpska.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Republika Srpska. Any comment to make,
9 Mr. Guy-Smith?
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yeah, we will do so, ma'am.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour. May that be marked --
13 admitted into evidence and marked for identification.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. It is so admitted. May it be so marked
15 and given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P223, marked for
17 identification, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND:
20 Q. Mr. Treanor had the Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian
21 Krajina taken -- previously taken steps to unite?
22 A. Yes, as between themselves. Between those two entities they had
23 adopted a declaration, a joint session of their Assemblies in, I believe,
24 November 1992 in Prijedor about the unification of their two legal
25 systems and beginning a process of discussion of uniting those two
1 entities, which was developed over the next several months in meetings
2 between a commission that was set up.
3 Q. Okay. Now, taking you back to August 1994, which is the document
4 that we have just discussed. Was the FRY leadership satisfied at this
5 point with the Contact Group plan? If I could have Rule 65 ter number
6 06640.01, which is the redacted version of that exhibit on the screen,
8 A. Yes. The FRY leadership continued to favour acceptance of the
10 Q. At this -- the document that's on the screen before us is the
11 stenographic notes of the 25th session of the SDC session. Did
12 Slobodan Milosevic -- or what did Slobodan Milosevic say in this session
13 in relation to the -- to the Contact Group plan?
14 A. He made some statements in support of accepting the plan and
15 critical of the Bosnian Serb leadership --
16 Q. And if --
17 A. -- for not doing so.
18 Q. -- we could go to page 37 of the English translation, and page 24
19 of the B/C/S. What is Mr. Milosevic's position?
20 A. Well, for example, in the paragraph -- first paragraph in the
21 English translation, he says that "by pursuing a unanimous policy and
22 quite successfully in my mind, we have managed to save the country from
23 war, and at the same rendered as much support as possible to our people
24 across the Drina
25 Republic of Srpska Krajina and in winning them a normal status by the
1 negotiations, leading to an ultimate goal, which now even the
2 international community has offered to recognise. And that is
3 Republika Srpska stretching over half of the territory of the former
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina."
5 Q. Could I take you, please, to page 2 -- sorry, page 25 of the
6 B/C/S -- 27 of the B/C/S and page 41 of the English translation.
7 Does he talk there about the territory, the amount of territory
8 that the Bosnian Serbs have? I'm sorry, no. Not in relation to the
9 Bosnian Serbs but in relation to Serb territory.
10 A. He's referring to the territory that has been offered. He says:
11 "We have actually been offered to expand the territory by
12 one-fourth, because Yugoslavia
13 and to increase the population by one-tenth and to legalise it as well
14 and even to have a confederation right away. Koziryev told me that quite
15 clearly. The leadership of Republika Srpska knows that, in that way, we
16 shall be given the right to legally defend those borders. This rules the
17 Iraqi syndrome of illegally entering a territory and then being exposed
18 to strikes," et cetera.
19 Q. Can I take you to page 28 of the B/C/S and page 42 of the English
21 Does Slobodan Milosevic make reference to goals being fulfilled?
22 A. Yes. He refers on this page in the paragraph beginning "we were
23 in a situation to the establishment of a -- of Republika Srpska." And he
25 "We were in a situation which obviously leads down this dangerous
1 path. Seeing how things are going with Republika Srpska, it is possible
2 that the achievement represented by the offer from the international
3 community for Republika Srpska to be constituted on one-half of the
4 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and immediately form a confederation
5 with Yugoslavia
6 for the Serbs to practically remain living in one state, and incomparably
7 increase the chances for a favourable future solution for the Republic of
8 Serbian Krajina, whereby all our goals would have been achieved."
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may pages 1, 37, 41, and 42 of the
10 English translation and pages 1, 24, 27, and 28 be admitted into
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are so admitted. May they please be given an
13 exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P224, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND:
17 Q. Mr. Treanor, what was the Security Council's reaction to the
18 Republika Srpska's refusal to accept the Contact Group plan?
19 A. Well, it passed a Resolution endorsing that plan, and --
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter number 02179 on the
21 screen, please.
22 A. On putting further restrictions on commercial and other
23 activities with the territory of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. What was the Security Council's -- in this Resolution, what were
25 they -- what were they trying to prevent?
1 A. I think we can see that in the second page of the English, they
2 give a very brief statement under B.
3 Q. If you can actually summarise that for the Chamber, that would
4 be helpful.
5 A. I certainly won't to read the whole thing, but the first
6 paragraph states that the Security Council resolved to reinforce --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Please read slowly.
8 THE WITNESS: The Security Council resolved to reinforce and
9 extend the measures imposed by its previous Resolutions with regard to
10 those areas of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina under the control
11 of Bosnian Serb forces - and then just I call attention the Chamber to
12 numbered paragraph 6 - it called upon states to desist from any political
13 talks with the leadership of the Bosnian Serb party as long as that party
14 has not accepted the proposed settlement in full.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. If I could take you to paragraph 14 on page -- pages 4 and 5 of
17 the English translation and page 4 and 5 of the B/C/S.
18 What basically is paragraph 14 requiring parties to do or states
19 to do?
20 A. It's requiring them to prevent the entry into their territory of
21 certain officials of the Bosnian Serb republic, including legislative
22 authorities and officers of the Bosnian Serb military and paramilitary
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that Security Council
25 Resolution be admitted into evidence?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
2 given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P225, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND:
6 Q. Did the FRY leadership maintain its support for the Contact Group
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I'm sorry, just the UN Resolution that we just looked at, P225,
10 what was the date of that Resolution?
11 A. UN Security Council Resolution 942 was adopted on the 23rd of
12 September, 1994.
13 Q. Going forward to November 1994, you said that the FRY leadership
14 did maintain support for the Contact Group plan.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter number 06677 on the
16 screen, please -- 06677.01, the redacted version of this exhibit.
17 Q. Mr. Treanor this is the stenographic notes of the 28th session
18 of the SDC
19 What did Slobodan Milosevic express at this SDC meeting in
20 relation to its support for the Bosnian Serbs in Republika Srpska? And
21 if I could take you to paragraph -- sorry, page 30 of the English
22 translation and page 29 of the B/C/S.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I apologise. Perhaps I'm a bit confused. There
24 was a question pending, and I thought that this particular document dealt
25 with that question, which was did the FRY leadership maintain support for
1 the Contact Group plan, which is different from the question now just
2 asked, which is what did Slobodan Milosevic express in relation to its
3 support for the Bosnian Serbs. So there are two different questions
4 contain in the same paragraph. They may -- we may reach the same result,
5 but I'm not sure that that's what my colleague is driving at.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, Mr. Treanor answered the first
7 question at page 84, line 6, at least on my computer.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 84, line 6 on my computer says,
9 "Judge Moloto: Thank you so much."
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm two lines away from you.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry, I'm looking at page 84, line 15, going
12 14 November 1994
13 for contract group plan. If I could have 65 ter.
14 I thought that's what we were dealing with, and perhaps I
15 misunderstood what this exhibit was for, the purpose of this exhibit was
16 for. I thought this was going to be documentation, in fact, that the FRY
17 leadership did support the FRY leadership plan.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's exactly what it's for. The question was
19 was there support. Mr. Treanor said yes. I then asked him what did
20 Slobodan Milosevic say in this session in relation to support for the
21 Bosnian Serbs in Republika Srpska.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think we're thinking cross-purposes, but
23 that's -- well, let's just proceed and see where we get to.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, maybe if I might just try to come to the
25 rescue. That question of whether the FRY leadership supported the
1 Contact Group plan was answered up above at page 84, line 8 to 10. Now,
2 here Madam Sutherland is looping that answer before she puts the next
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND:
7 Q. Mr. Treanor?
8 A. At this session Slobodan Milosevic indicated -- continued to
9 indicate his support for the plan in that connection. I would draw the
10 Court's attention to the very bottom of the page in the English
11 translation where he says:
12 "The standpoint of the entire world on five superpowers is
13 absolutely categorical. These talks can be continued only if the plan is
14 accepted." "They," meaning the Bosnian Serb leaders, "do not realise how
15 little space we have for our manoeuvres, and this was the best we could
16 get. They resigned themselves to their fate, and said, all right. It is
17 quite clear that the Serbs have the right to confederation with
19 I'm sorry, I think "they" actually means the international
20 community there.
21 Q. If I can take you to page 29 of the B/C/S and page 32 of the
22 English translation.
23 Does he talk there about -- about achieving goals?
24 A. I'm sorry on which page of the English?
25 Q. Page 32 of the English translation and page 29 of the B/C/S. I
1 think it's at the top of the page.
2 A. Okay. I have it now. Sorry. Yes.
3 Now, this -- the passage that I'd like to call the Court's
4 attention to is the second paragraph at the top of the page. Here the
5 "they" in question is the Bosnian Serb leaders.
6 "It is not the question anymore whether they can accomplish that
7 goal, because we promptly advised them that it was impossible to achieve
8 the goal they wanted to achieve. We also told them that the politics is
9 the art of the possible and not the art of the impossible. It is simply
10 impossible that the international community will get along with the fact
11 that two-thirds of the population, including Croats and Muslims, are
12 crammed into less than half of the territory. Trust me, I did not -- did
13 not expect that they would give us half of the territory."
14 And the "they" in that sentence being the international
16 Q. And again on page 30 of the B/C/S and 33 of the English
18 A. Here again Slobodan Milosevic refers to what the international
19 community had agreed to. And says at the top of the page:
20 "And all that happens after so much suffering. We endured
21 everything. We went through all the sanctions, and we came to the point
22 when the entire international community says, "All right. You are not
23 the aggressors. Half of Bosnia and Herzegovina is yours, and you have
24 the right to merge with Serbia
25 Bosnian Serb leaders, "No, and we will take even more by force. We will
1 prolong the war. That is what I call complete madness."
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can those pages be admitted, that
3 is pages --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1, 30, 32, and 33.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, of the English translation.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. They are so admitted. They may
7 please be given an exhibit number. And they are admitted with their
8 corresponding B/C/S pages.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit
10 P226, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND:
13 Q. So at this time, being November 1994, did the Bosnian Serb
14 leadership still say that they wanted 70 -- at least 70 per cent of the
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter number 02344 on the
17 screen, please.
18 A. They continued to refuse to accept the Contact Group plan.
19 Q. At this session, which is the 46th session of the Bosnian Serb
20 Assembly, held on the 11th of November, 1994, and which continued on the
21 23rd of November, 1994, did Momcilo Krajisnik discuss the Contact Group
22 maps and how they related to the strategic goals?
23 A. Yes. He made reference to that.
24 Q. If I could take you to page 164 and 165 of the English
25 translation and page 146 of the B/C/S.
1 Can you tell the Court what Momcilo Krajisnik said at this
3 A. I'm -- I'm sorry, I'm having trouble identifying the passage.
4 All the pages seem to be numbered 350 on the copy I have.
5 Q. That's also true of the English translation we have.
6 It's -- if I can take you to where it says page 35 in the English
7 translation, which is halfway down the page on page 164 of e-court, where
8 Chairman Krajisnik starts the discussion. And it's down towards the
9 bottom of that page.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I could be of some assistance, I have the two
11 specific pages I could -- if the usher could give them to the witness,
12 that might be of some help.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland --
14 THE WITNESS: There seems to be more than one page 35 in the
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: You may want to check with Ms. Sutherland to make
17 sure I have the same document.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yeah. That's what's on the screen now.
19 Mr. Treanor, if you can look -- don't worry about the pages. They can
20 come up on e-court.
21 Usher, could you return those documents to the Defence, please.
22 Q. Mr. Treanor if you look at the bottom of the -- what's on the
23 screen now in the English translation. Six lines up from the -- seven
24 lines up. "I would like to ask you not to discuss the maps at all." And
25 then on the second to last line of that page. "If you want to ask me, I
1 will tell you the Serbian land..." and it continues. And then it
2 continues over the page on page 165 of e-court, of the English
4 What is Mr. Krajisnik saying there in relation to the maps and
5 how they relate to the strategic goals?
6 A. Well, he notes here:
7 "I have an accurate conclusion that we have the strategic goals.
8 We know exactly where the boundary lines run. It is the Una River
9 Sava River
10 Q. So what's the Bosnian Serb leadership's concern at this point?
11 A. Well, they're still concerned to achieve those goals.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may page 100 -- page 1 and 164 and
13 165 be admitted into evidence and page 1 and 146 of the B/C/S, please.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do so, could I just be on the same page
15 with you, Mr. Treanor.
16 You've just read where they say:
17 "I have an accurate conclusion. We have the strategic goals. We
18 know exact which are the boundary lines are," and then he mentions those
19 lines, and then the question was: What did the Serb leadership -- Bosnian
20 Serb leadership want? And you said those goals, but those goals, you say
21 they have already.
22 THE WITNESS: Well, they've adopted those goals as goals. A goal
23 is something to be achieved. They hadn't been achieved in their entirety
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess that is the question. What was
1 outstanding? What was not achieved at this point in time?
2 THE WITNESS: Well, along the Sava River the Bosnian Serbs did
3 not control the whole southern bank of the river. So the corridor was
4 not as satisfactory as they would have wanted in that -- in that area.
5 And the Drina
6 they did not control. They did not have -- occupy much -- perhaps no
7 territory on the eastern bank of the Neretva River, and they had not
8 achieved an outlet to the sea.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 And those pages are then admitted into evidence. May they please
11 be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P227, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND:
15 Q. Now, by the end of 1994, did the Bosnian Serb leadership still
16 want to unite with the FRY or the Republic of Serbia
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter number 06680 on the
18 screen, please.
19 A. Yes, they did.
20 Q. And how was this conveyed to the FRY leadership?
21 A. Well, at this -- at this time, this time being November 1994, an
22 interview with Momcilo Krajisnik was published in a Bosnian Serb newspaper
23 containing his views on the situation on that matter.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have page 9 of the English
25 translation and page 4 of the B/C/S.
1 Q. What did Mr. Krajisnik say in this article in relation to wanting
2 to unite with Serbia
3 A. Well, for instance, at the bottom of the page in the English, in
4 the line beginning with "State," he says:
5 "We feel that our goal is not a confederation. We want to be
6 united with the Republic of Serbia
7 confederation is not a state. If their proposal is such, then we can
8 choose another version and demand that we be independent and that we
9 unite as such. I'm not the least bit afraid of whether Serbia will want
10 this. Serbia
11 out to us and who understand us."
12 Q. Does he also mention -- make mention to Sarajevo in this article?
13 A. Yes, he did.
14 Q. And without reading it into the record, what does he -- what does
15 he say?
16 A. Well, he says that Serb -- Sarajevo
17 Serbs in Bosnia
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may that document be admitted into
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted. May it please be given an
22 exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P228, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND:
1 Q. Mr. Treanor, can you tell the Chamber very briefly what was
2 happening between December 1994 and August 1995. Very briefly, please?
3 A. Very briefly, yes.
4 Q. We have five minutes before the end of today's session.
5 A. In Bosnia
6 which was scheduled to last for four months. All three parties signed
8 In Croatia
9 government of Croatia
10 agreement was signed in December 1994. However, things didn't continue
11 to go so well in Croatia
12 would refuse the extension of the mandate of UNPROFOR in Croatia after
13 the end of March 1995, and the republic of -- the RSK renounced the
14 economic agreement and at one point closed the highway through Western
16 At the end of April the cease-fire in BH expired, attempts to
17 have it extended having failed, and the next day the 1st of May, 1995,
18 Croatian forces invaded western Slavonia
19 occupied that entire territory.
20 After that, military operations resumed in Bosnia. For instance,
21 in the next few months the safe haven of Srebrenica and Zepa were taken
22 by Bosnian Serb forces, and Croatian forces took the city of -- the town
23 of Grahovo in Bosnia
24 later they launch Operation Storm against the RSK and within a few days
25 had eliminated all of its territory except for the area of Eastern
2 So that was the situation as of the beginning of August.
3 Q. And we have Srebrenica in Bosnia at the end -- beginning of July,
4 middle of July?
5 A. That was in July, yes.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I know we're five minutes before
7 finishing, but I'm about to move on to another rather extended exhibit.
8 If --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to break at this point?
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then that brings us to the end of the day's
12 session. Adjourned to tomorrow at 9.00, same courtroom.
13 Court adjourned.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day
16 of November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.