1 Wednesday, 26 November 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T The
10 Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Could we have appearances
12 for today starting with the Prosecution, please.
13 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. Mark
14 Harmon, Ann Sutherland, Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And for the Defence.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Milos
17 Androvic, Daniela Tasic, Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith and Novak Lukic.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry to come up with a housekeeping matter in
19 the middle of a witness's testimony, but because of the urgency of the
20 matter, I thought we might as well deal with it now.
21 Could we please move into private session.
22 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. Tesic. Sorry to have kept you
10 waiting for another five minutes. We were doing a few things.
11 Once again, I remind you that you are bound by the declaration
12 you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole
13 truth and nothing else but the truth.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Madam Sutherland.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you Your Honour.
17 WITNESS: BORIVOJE TESIC [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]
20 Q. Mr. Tesic, before we finished yesterday afternoon, I asked you at
21 transcript page 2051 what you and your unit were doing in Vogosca in
22 January in 1994. You didn't have an opportunity to complete your answer
23 before we broke for the day. I'd like to continue on that topic, but I
24 first want to ask you a couple of preliminary questions. What was combat
25 group BG-1?
1 A. I could not recollect now, unless I see a document referring to
2 it, because it was a long time ago. In one of yesterday's documents, if
3 I remember correctly, I think it's a part of the military police who were
4 in Vogosca.
5 Q. Part of the military police of the VJ unit that went to Vogosca?
6 A. I suppose so.
7 Q. What was your position when you arrived at Vogosca?
8 A. I was an operations officer, and I was appointed to that duty at
9 the Guards Brigade of the VJ.
10 Q. And did your position change through the month of July?
11 A. Which month?
12 Q. I'm sorry. I said July. January 1994?
13 A. No. I continued to be an operations officer at the command of
14 the Guards Brigade.
15 Q. In that position, what were you doing? What tasks did you have?
16 A. I acted exclusively on the orders of the commander of the Guards
17 Brigade when I went to tour units, when I monitored work of the brigade
18 and reported to the commander. And when I was at the command, all I did
19 was I kept the documentation, which according to regulations had to be
20 kept at the command.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may we move into closed session,
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
24 [Closed session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in closed session.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we have Exhibit P353 on the screen,
4 Q. Mr. Tesic, this is the war diary, at B/C/S, page 17, and the
5 English, page 18.
6 Mr. Tesic, this is an entry for the 20th of January, 1994, at the
7 bottom of the page in the B/C/S. You wrote this entry?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that's your signature beside the entry?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And here it states that you are the Chief of Staff of BG-1?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Can you tell us which one to look at in
13 the English, ma'am?
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour. The first one:
15 "Pursuant to" --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yeah, and then halfway down that entry: "(NS of
18 the BG-1 - Lieutenant-Colonel Tesic."
19 Q. Mr. Tesic, are you able to explain this entry?
20 A. That's what it reads, Chief of Staff. Maybe a comma is missing
21 or something. I couldn't be Chief of Staff, nor could I be parallelly
22 appointed Chief of Staff, if according to establishment, the Chief of
23 Staff already exists in the Guards Brigade.
24 Q. It's Chief of Staff of combat group 1, BG-1?
25 A. You are right. That's what's written here, but I'm telling you,
1 I was not the Chief of Staff, and I stand by it. There was no order
2 appointing me to that position, and I wouldn't say this is really
3 intended this way, but I don't know how to explain it. I never noticed
5 Q. But you wrote the entry, did you not?
6 A. Yes, I did. But I really don't know what to say. I can't
7 explain it because I know I wasn't Chief of Staff. Maybe I made a
8 mistake. Maybe I was thinking about something else when I was writing
9 this. That happens. Normally, I'm rather precise in my work, but --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I did not want to speak before the
12 witness's answer in order not to sound as leading, but I believe when a
13 proper translation is done of the B/C/S, we'll see there are certain
14 discrepancies. BG could be something referring to the case of a noun.
15 You see, there is nothing between NS and BG-1. There is no word as --
16 such as "of."
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic, that may be so. Thank you very
18 much for your assistance. But we've got the author of the story here.
19 He can explain what he wrote.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND:
21 Q. Mr. Tesic, can you read, please, the entry starting with the word
22 "officers," or starting with the sentence relating to the officers going
23 to the -- to the forward end of the line just before it says NS of BG-1?
24 A. Yes. I can't see the second word "order, presence of commanding
25 officers on the forward" --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness be asked to read slowly,
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Tesic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slowly. Go slowly. Go ahead.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Order. The next word is unclear, I
7 can't make it out. It is my handwriting but I can't make it out.
8 "Presence of commanding officers on the forward line until further
9 notice." Then "NS," Nesa [phoen], that is, Chief of Staff of combat
10 group 1, dash or something, "Lieutenant-Colonel Tesic; commander of the
11 2nd Motorised Battalion Major Borovcanin and other officers from the 2nd
12 Motorised Battalion; engineering company and reconnaissance company)".
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. Mr. Tesic, do you recall on the 20th of January, 1994, going to
15 the forward line with Major Borovcanin?
16 A. No. After all this time, I really couldn't remember, although
17 it's written here, but I personally don't remember it.
18 Q. What is a BG group?
19 A. I'm telling you again, I'm not sure if this is part of the
20 police, that is, part of the police battalion that was present in Vogosca
21 or some other unit. I wouldn't know until I look through the entire
22 diary to see if it repeats often. But there are frequent references to
23 BG-1, and in fact, we put it in as the commander instructed us.
24 Q. What are the functions of a BG group, a combat group?
25 A. I have no answer to that question.
1 Q. Do you know who was in charge of BG-1?
2 A. I don't know which combat group it was, so I couldn't tell you
3 what it consisted of or who was in charge.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, it was combat group 1. Let's tell you. We
5 are talking about combat group 1. You had 2 and others, but so if you
6 say you don't know which one you're talking, it is -- we can only
7 describe it by saying it's combat group 1. Are you able to answer the
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND:
11 Q. Okay. You saw a document on Monday, Exhibit P355, which was a
12 document dated the 5th of January from Stojimirovic, which states that
13 the 72nd Special Brigade handed over the area of responsibility to the
14 Guards Brigade. Would this then mean that Stojimirovic would take over
15 the responsibilities of Stupar who was the commander of the 72nd Special
17 A. I can only give you my opinion here.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this is outside the scope of
20 my cross-examination, and I think the witness is being asked to
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm trying to establish who the
24 commander of BG-1 is.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but don't invite speculation. The witness
1 has just told you: "I can only give you my opinion here."
2 MS. SUTHERLAND:
3 Q. Do you know -- okay.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have Exhibit P359 on the screen,
5 please. I'm sorry, terribly sorry. P355. And page number -- Your
6 Honour, I'm told that the Exhibit that I want is Exhibit P359, but what
7 came up -- yeah, I'm sorry. It was Exhibit P359. It was the document
8 that you had on the screen initially. My apologies.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: If the exhibit you want is P359, do we still need
10 to stay in private session? It's not under seal.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we please move into open session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND:
17 Q. Mr. Tesic, this document states that during the attack on the
18 27th of December, 1993, by the BG-1, i.e., the combat group 1, under the
19 command of Colonel Stupar who was the commander of the 72nd Special
20 Brigade, if, as we've just discussed, the Guards Brigade took over the
21 responsibilities of the 72nd Brigade, do you know if they took over -- do
22 you know whether Stojimirovic took over at commander of BG-1?
23 A. I can't answer that question. As for taking over the zone of the
24 72nd Brigade or, rather, that a handover took place between the 72nd
25 Brigade and the Guards Brigade, that did happen; but I don't know if they
1 remained to be referred to -- continued to be referred to as BG-1.
2 Q. You mentioned yesterday that --
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: I am sorry, Your Honour. We're going to have to
4 go into closed session.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
6 [Closed session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in closed session.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Madam Sutherland.
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 MS. SUTHERLAND:
11 Q. Mr. Tesic, can we conclude from the document that we just saw on
12 the screen that a BG group is involved in combat operations?
13 A. I cannot see it from this. I only said that the Guards Brigade
14 took over part of the responsibilities from the 72nd Brigade and became
15 part of the Defence forces of the Vogosca area and more broadly the
16 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
17 Q. Yesterday at transcript pages 2016 to 2017, you said that you
18 agreed with Mr. Lukic that actions were planned but nothing was being
19 carried out on the ground. You also said at page -- transcript page 2031
20 that the Guards Brigade didn't participate in offensive actions during
21 their stay from the 31st of December, 1993, through to the 30th of
22 January, 1994. But earlier in your testimony at transcript page 2014,
23 you agreed with Mr. Lukic that there were combat activities, and I will
24 read you the passage. The question was: "On the basis of what I've just
25 showed you" - that was on transcript page 2013 - "do you agree with my
1 thesis that in terms of your combat activities, your superior officers
2 received their orders from the VRS command structure, in other words,
3 from the commander of the SRK
4 And you answered: "On the basis of this, such a statement could
5 be deducted."
6 So was the Guards Brigade involved in combat activities in
7 January 1994?
8 A. One of the tasks that I mentioned was to destroy emerging targets
9 ahead of the forward line and to respond to fire with fire. So there was
10 sporadic fire, but the only point where the Guards Brigade arrived -- or,
11 rather, part of the Guards Brigade or, more precisely, a couple of
12 armoured combat vehicles was involved was to recapture part of Orlovo
13 where members of the VRS had been killed in early morning hours, but
14 there was no -- there was not much fighting because the ABiH forces had
15 already withdrawn. It had been a sabotage attack at dawn. We can't say
16 there wasn't any shooting, but I'm saying we can't really talk about
17 proper operations because the Guards Brigade in those couple of months
18 [as interpreted] did not participate in any offensive action, nor did it
19 move from the positions that it took up on the 1st of January, 1994, that
20 is, in the period from the 1st to the 5th of January, 1994, when the
21 handover of that zone took place.
22 Q. You said a couple of months -- you said when the unit was --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I wanted to
25 correct. The witness actually said "in that month."
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. If we could have Exhibit P353 on the
2 screen again, please. If we could go to page 7 of the English
3 translation, which is an entry for the 5th of January, 1994. I think
4 page 11 of the B/C/S.
5 Q. Mr. Tesic, we can --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which one of the two? Is it 13 --
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Entry number 13. Entry number 13, which will be
8 on the preceding page, down at the bottom.
9 Q. Mr. Tesic, it says here: "The engagement of the units during the
10 day was according to the plan." This is on the 5th of January. What was
11 the plan?
12 A. At this moment, I could not really recall what the plan was. It
13 was the commander's plan, and this is just a note that everything was
14 proceeding according to plan, and this has been confirmed by signature,
15 but I cannot really recall after 15 years what really happened. Most
16 probably, it concerns the takeover of the area of responsibility from the
17 72nd Special Brigade, and this is what is mentioned in the next sentence.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could go to entry number 17, which is on
19 page 9 of the English translation, and page 13, I think, of the B/C/S.
20 Q. Mr. Tesic, it says there under paragraph 2: "This unit shall
21 carry out combat tasks as per the orders by the BG-1 commander."
22 A. Yes, this is what it says.
23 Q. Can you explain what combat tasks were being carried out?
24 A. I can't recall, given the amount of time that elapsed, but I do
25 believe that whatever happened during the day was recorded here.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could go to entry number 19, which is on
2 page 10 of the English.
3 Q. It says there: "Previously set tasks still stand." And: "The
4 BVP shall continue carrying out the present task." What is the BVP?
5 A. Military police battalion.
6 Q. And just further down: "Other units to resume work on previously
7 given tasks." Are you aware of what those previous tasks were?
8 A. I presume again, I cannot state for certain, but I presume that
9 this goes for defence. Since nothing special was happening, we just note
10 that previously set tasks continued - this is an entry done by my
11 colleague Paunovic - and work should continue on preventing any slippage
12 in the combat morale of our units.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can go to entry number 20, the next entry.
14 That's of the 11th of January, 1994.
15 Q. "Offensive operations shall be continued along all directions."
16 Do you remember what these offensive operations related to?
17 A. Yes, it says; offensive operations to be continued along all
18 axes. I wouldn't know, but I do state that in the area where the Guards
19 Brigade was located, and that is the area of Vogosca, there were no
20 offensive actions, and we did not move.
21 Q. It says, The main direction of the attack was Rajlovac and then
22 two illegible words in the English translation, and then Brdo, which
23 means "hill" in English. Do you know what was going on in that area on
24 the 11th of January?
25 A. It says the main axis of attack will be Rajlovac, Sokolje,
1 Svabino Brdo, or Svabino Hill. While I was in Vogosca, I never went to
2 Rajlovac, not once, and I don't know whether any of our units were there,
3 and if there was an APC
4 have been issued -- an order issued by the commander, local commander
5 there. What we did here was just note what was happening.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can go to entry number 21, which is the --
7 dated the 13th of January, 1994. And, Your Honour, there is a mistake in
8 the English translation. I went to entry 20, and I said it was dated the
9 11th of January. It's in fact the 12th of January. I can see that from
10 the B/C/S version.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Sutherland.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND:
13 Q. Mr. Tesic, it says on the 13th of January at entry number 21:
14 "The unit worked as in the plan." Again, are you able to recollect what
15 the plan was that they were working to?
16 A. No. But nothing was happening, and this is reflected in the
17 first sentence, which says: "No problems were encountered during the
19 Q. Entry number 22, which is for the 14th of January, and again, we
20 have a date of 11th of January in the English translation, which will be
21 changed when it will be revised, so...
22 At 2000 hours, the units worked in accordance with previously
23 received tasks, and then further down: "Other units are engaged in
24 active Defence with the task to inflict losses on the enemy."
25 These entries would seem to -- would these entries seem to you to
1 be putting into operation what was planned?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I don't want to object before
4 the question is finished. It seems that the -- suggestions are being put
5 to the witness. I do believe that this is within the scope of my
6 cross-examination, but there is a series of questions whereby the
7 Prosecution goes back into examination-in-chief mode. The witness said
8 that he didn't remember some things. The Prosecution should address the
9 questions that we put to the witness and not to explore certain matters
10 which are contained in the war diary and which had been shown to him
11 during examination-in-chief.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: One moment, Your Honour. Your Honour, I'm
14 addressing the question that was put by Mr. Lukic in relation to the
15 witness. Mr. Lukic's question was: "It's very often they make mention
16 of planning of combat operations, but I never see any entry explaining
17 that a combat action has been executed." And the witness said: "Yes,
18 actions were planned, but nothing was being carried out." I'm simply
19 taking him to entries which may show that in fact the unit was working to
20 a plan, so they were in fact putting some plan into operation.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Shall I start again? So the problem is that your
24 witness is consistently taking the position that nothing happened, and
25 the re-examination appears to be like either cross-examination or an
1 attempt to impeach. I'm not quite sure what is happening. What's
2 happening? You are taking him now to entries, which I didn't think had
3 been canvassed in examination-in-chief.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Some of the entries were but not those
5 particular sentences, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Some of the entries were what?
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Some of the entries have been covered in
8 examination-in-chief but not those particular sentences.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's my point. That's the point. But, you
10 know, I think you've taken the witness through quite a number of entries
11 and he's sticking by his position. Just be careful not to be
12 cross-examining or to be re-leading, trying to put in new evidence. I am
13 sympathetic to the objection, in other words.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
15 May we go to entry number -- the entry for the 17th of January,
16 which -- if we could go to page 14 of the English translation.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the entry number, ma'am?
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: It doesn't -- in the box where it is, it doesn't
19 have an entry number, but it's two boxes below what I think is entry
20 number 26. It's got a back slash, question mark, back slash, 6, and then
21 two boxes down from that, so that's on page 13, and the following page is
22 page 14 where it has "Vogosca, 17th of January, 1994, at 2000 hours."
23 Q. Mr. Tesic, under the words "orders for 18 January 1994," you
24 referred earlier this morning about one operation, if I can put it. Was
25 this the operation that you were talking about in relation to combat
1 where there's reference to launching an attack along the axis in
2 cooperation with BG-2 and facilitating the attack of BG-2, and then
3 further down: "The forces of the 2nd Motorised Battalion are to provide
4 fire support..." Is that the incident that you were talking about earlier
5 this morning?
6 A. No.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Okay. Can we go to entry number 31. This is
8 the last entry that I will take you to. It's on page 17 of the English
9 translation. It's the 18th of January, 1994, at 2000 hours.
10 Q. In this entry we can see: "During the day, the units were
11 carrying out their respective assignments. Our units were actively
12 engaged in sniper and mortar fire along the line."
13 Was this the incident that you were referring to this morning?
14 A. No, it doesn't refer to that area. This is a completely
15 different area above the town of Orlovo
16 sabotage attack to the lines held by the VRS. After losses incurred, the
17 commander of the Guards Brigade decided upon invitation to send a part of
18 the military police unit to stabilize the line and to return men to the
19 previously held positions; and by appearing there, given the snowy
20 conditions and the appearance of those APCs, our combat armoured
21 vehicles, really nothing happened. What happened here as described is
22 the firing of mortar shells in front of our frontline or forward
23 positions. These high elevations, 772 and elevation 830, this is
24 ahead -- the area in front of the Vogosca Brigade positions where parts
25 of our 2nd Battalion were, and it is true that fire was open, but there
1 was no attack launched. There were no attack activities going on.
2 Most probably, we responded to fire by fire. Most probably, but
3 I cannot state it as a fact after 15 years. It will be with pleasure
4 that I would assist you if I could, but I took a solemn declaration that
5 I will speak the truth and not lies.
6 Q. Mr. Tesic, how do you know that there were no attack activities
7 going on on this particular day?
8 A. On the basis of what you showed me. I'm discussing that. It is
9 stated here that there were sniper and mortar fire. Most probably, they
10 were responding to fire by fire, but the opening of fire does not concern
11 the area of Srednje which was held by - I don't know - a brigade of the
12 VRS, and this is the area which is above the town called Orlovo.
13 Q. Okay. I'll move on to another topic. We discussed in the war
14 diary certain entries in relation to the training of snipers for the
15 Ilidza and the Rajlovac brigades. I won't take you to them, but they
16 were the dates of the 11th and the 15th and the 17th of January. Do you
17 recall that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are you aware of -- well, can you just explain for the Trial
20 Chamber what a sniper rifle is?
21 A. Sniper rifle, just as any other piece of weaponry, is a personal
22 arms of an individual soldier. Its calibre is 7.9 millimetres with an
23 optical sight, and an individual soldier will be responsible for such a
24 rifle. In the VJ, any conscript will be given a weapon, a rifle, when he
25 enters the national service and be responsible for it.
1 Q. What is the maximum effective range of a sniper rifle?
2 A. Maximum range is up to 5 kilometres. With an optical sight, you
3 can hit targets up to 1.000 metres.
4 Q. Where is --
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Actually, if we could have Rule 65 ter 09244,
6 which is a map, on the screen, please.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: While this map is coming, can I just ask for my
8 own lessons. I know very little about war and arms and ammunition. When
9 you say maximum range is up to 5 kilometres, and that with an optical
10 sight you can hit the target at 1.000 metres, does it mean if it goes
11 beyond 1.000 metres but within the range of 5 kilometres you can't hit
12 the target?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the round or the
14 bullet has a parabolic curve, and this is the maximum range of that
15 bullet if -- when fired. But this is not the way that a marksman will
16 use to destroy his target when he's searching for targets. The other
17 range, 1.000 metres on your optical sights, you have distances from you
18 to the target; and on the basis of that, you can hit the target. You can
19 try to hit it. The marksman will assess the distance, sets the elements
20 on the optical sight, and will pull the trigger at the most appropriate
21 moment. Best results can be achieved between 600 and 700 metres, and I'm
22 talking about the sniper rifles available to the VJ at the time. Other
23 weapons, automatic rifles are most effective until up to 400 metres,
24 single rounds, if single rounds are fired.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks for the lesson.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND:
2 Q. Mr. Tesic, can you --
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we enlarge the map a little more. Not
4 quite that much.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do we still need to be in closed session, ma'am?
6 Madam Sutherland?
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND:
10 Q. Mr. Tesic, where is Ilidza located --
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, counsel. Your Honours, we're back in
13 open session.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. Mr. Tesic, where is Ilidza located on this map, and if you could
17 put a circle around it, please.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Do you know where the frontline for that brigade was?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you know its area of responsibility?
22 A. No. This is a completely different area. This is the -- on the
23 opposite side of Sarajevo
25 Q. Do you know where -- where is Rajlovac located?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you circle that, please.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Do you know where the frontline for that brigade was?
5 A. I never went there, and I recently told you that I never went to
6 Rajlovac while I was there at Vogosca, neither do I know the position of
7 that unit.
8 Q. Okay. Could you put a number 1 next to Ilidza and a number 2
9 next to Rajlovac, please.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I would seek to tender that map
13 into evidence.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please
15 be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P370, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: I've finished with the map.
19 Q. Mr. Tesic, yesterday at transcript page 2018, you said that you
20 wore your VJ uniform while you were in Vogosca. Were non-commissioned
21 officers and soldiers, to your knowledge, ordered not to wear VJ uniform?
22 A. I do not have such information. There we all wore VJ uniforms.
23 I never saw anybody in civilian clothes, I mean, those members who were
24 at Vogosca at this time.
25 Q. Do you know if they were ordered to remove their insignia of the
2 A. I don't know of such an order.
3 Q. On the uniforms of the officers, NCOs, and soldiers, did you see
4 the VJ insignia?
5 A. I can't claim I've seen that. I don't remember even if I wore
6 insignia or not.
7 Q. How long did you think that you would be staying in Vogosca?
8 A. I personally, and I'm speaking only in my own name, expected to
9 stay 15 to 20 days.
10 Q. For such a short mission, would there normally be 200 men, three
11 tanks and other equipment sent?
12 A. We're talking about the second part of the Guards Brigade that
13 appeared in Vogosca on the 31st. I cannot talk about the first part of
14 the Guards Brigade that left in mid-December 1993.
15 Q. For such a short mission, would 120 men and three tanks and other
16 -- a lot of other heavy equipment be sent on such a mission?
17 A. The tanks came from the armament brigade, not the Guards Brigade,
18 and I found them there. They were already there when I arrived. As for
19 the rest of the weaponry, it was the weaponry and equipment normally in
20 possession of the units of the Army of Yugoslavia. Nothing was carried
21 there that was not prescribed by establishment.
22 Q. In relation to the Pancir-2 operation --
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we have exhibit -- I'm sorry, Rule 65 ter
24 number 08382 on the screen, please.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My first objection is that this
2 document, although it is on the 65 ter list, has not been notified to us
3 as one of the documents to be used with this witness. I don't know if it
4 has been shown to the witness at all. I see no connection with the
5 cross-examination, but for the time being, my objection is that we were
6 not notified this document would be used with this witness.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we are in re-examination at the
9 moment. We are not obliged to advise the Defence of documents we are
10 going to put in re-examination.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's your authority for that?
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Practice.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: My problem is that it looks like you're leading
14 evidence anew, for me. You're coming up with exhibits that you didn't
15 canvass in chief.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: This is as a result of cross-examination, Your
17 Honour. If we can go into closed session.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sutherland, I'm still dealing with an
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: But in order to -- Mr. Lukic in closed session
21 took the witness to a passage, and I want to follow up on that passage.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but I'm still dealing with an objection,
23 Madam Sutherland.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you are not going to order me to go into
1 private session when I'm still dealing with an objection that comes from
2 the opposite side.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: My apologies, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I was saying to you, you appear to me
5 to be leading evidence anew. Do you have any comment to that?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, this evidence is in relation to
7 what was raised in cross-examination, and I think it's legitimate to go
8 over it in re-examination.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but you go over it on re-examination on the
10 issues that you dealt with it in chief, not new evidence. You don't call
11 new evidence into examination, ma'am.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, re-examination deals with matters raised in
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: This was a matter raised in cross-examination
16 which I want to deal with.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what is this matter that you want to deal with
18 that was raised in cross-examination? What is the issue?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Pancir-2 operation. Mr. Lukic took the witness
20 to certain matters in closed session, and I wish to take the witness to
21 that and ask him another question in relation to it.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: But what is the relevance of 65 ter 08382 in that
23 matter, which was not shown to the witness before?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's relevant to exactly the question put to the
25 witness by Mr. Lukic.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like you to canvass that before you call
2 this document up.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we go into closed session so that I --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
5 Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Once again, I have to object to the
7 method applied yesterday. I would prefer that the witness be asked the
8 question and then shown a document rather than the other way around.
9 Perhaps my objection was premature, but --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's just what I have just said. Before this
11 exhibit is put on the screen, canvass the point, Madam Sutherland.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
13 [Closed session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, may I just for the record that we
15 are in closed session.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: My apologies, Your Honour. I was trying to do
18 it without going back into closed session to put the question that was
19 put to Mr. Lukic, but I apologise.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do listen when you are communicating either with
21 anybody in response to what is being said.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND:
23 Q. Mr. Tesic, at transcript page --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can this document please be removed from the
25 screen. Could we please remove it. Thank you.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND:
2 Q. Mr. Tesic, at transcript page 2029 to 2030, Mr. Lukic put his
3 position in relation to the Pancir operation and read out to you a number
4 of brigades that were involved in Pancir-2 operation and said that --
5 mentioned the Vogosca Brigade, the Rajlovac Brigade, one brigade from the
6 Krajina Corps, one brigade of the Herzegovina
7 police of the Republika Srpska who took part in it. That was Mr.
8 Lukic's -- part of Mr. Lukic's question, and then asked: "Do you agree
9 with me that those units represented a substantial force of an army in an
10 operation in such an area?" And then you replied: "Yes." "And you
11 would also note that we had the Kosevo Brigade as well?
12 A. Kosevo.
13 Q. And then Mr. Lukic asked you -- or told you: "And from the VJ,
14 the Army of Yugoslavia, who was present there in accordance with my
15 thesis and my information in the first group that was led by Colonel
16 Stupar, there were 120 men, and then there was the other group which came
17 with your unit, so to bring the total slightly above 200 men who were
18 engaged in that action; isn't that correct?"
19 And you answered yes. You said: "That's correct."
20 My question to you is, was there also a helicopter squad involved
21 in the Pancir-2 operation?
22 A. I don't know that.
23 Q. When you were in Vogosca, did you see a helicopter squad at the
24 logistics base?
25 A. No.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have a moment, Your Honour.
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Tesic, that brings us to the conclusion of
7 your testimony. Let me take this time to thank you for taking the time
8 off your schedule - I'm sure you must be a busy person even though you
9 are retired - to come and testify at the Tribunal. You are now excused.
10 You may stand down. May you please travel well back home.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for these kind
12 words. I wish you success in your work, and I am happy if I was of any
13 assistance to the Prosecution and the Defence in coming to the truth.
14 Thank you again.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we please move into open session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Could you get assistance
21 with the window, please. Thank you.
22 Yes, Madam Sutherland. Is this a convenient time?
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, but I would like to advise the
24 Court that we do not -- the next witness is not available until tomorrow.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does this then bring us to the end of the day?
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Okay. Then we stand adjourned to
3 tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning, same courtroom. Court adjourned.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.14 a.m.
5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th of November,
6 2008, at 9.00 a.m.