1 Tuesday, 2 December 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.38 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
7 courtroom. Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Could we have appearances
12 for the day, please, starting with the Prosecution.
13 MR. SAXON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Dan Saxon for the
14 Prosecution together with Ms. Carmela Javier.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And for the Defence.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
17 afternoon to everyone participating in the proceedings. On behalf of
18 Mr. Perisic we have Milos Androvic, Tina Drolec and Daniela Tasic and
19 Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith and Novak Lukic appearing in the courtroom today.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 Good afternoon, Mr. Hvaal.
22 THE WITNESS: Afternoon.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to remind you that you are still bound by the
24 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the
25 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.
2 Mr. Lukic.
3 WITNESS: MORTEN HVAAL [Resumed]
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon sir, again. I'm now going to
6 move to another subject, specifically what you testified at length during
7 your stay in Sarajevo
8 far as I know; is that correct?
9 A. That is correct, yes.
10 Q. Could you perhaps remember which period that was, whether it was
11 towards the end of the month, do you specifically remember any event that
12 took place while you were there?
13 A. To my recollection, I was there in the beginning of the month
14 rather than towards the end of it. I know this simply because it was
15 before major hostilities broke out, but there were incidents of street
16 fighting and general unrest, but major hostilities had not yet broken
18 Q. Do you know what kind of military formations existed in Sarajevo
19 at the time, and how did they call themselves?
20 A. There were still units of the Yugoslav Army. There were a number
21 of paramilitary groups, some identifiable, but like paramilitary groups
22 in many places, it's very unreliable to start making assumptions on who
23 they are and where they are from, especially as an outsider. There was
24 also at that point a very loosely organised form of what later became the
25 Territorial Defence and then later on became the Bosnian government army.
1 But at that stage it was in its very early infancy and it certainly
2 didn't have a large noticeable presence. We heard about it more than we
3 actually saw it.
4 Q. I would really appreciate if you could give me shorter answers.
5 I'm going to put to you very specific questions.
6 When was the first time that you heard about the notion of the
7 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
8 A. As referred to as the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that would have
9 been sometime in the summer of 1992, but I cannot give you an exact date
10 other than that. No, I can't give you anything more specific than that.
11 Q. Did you have any direct contacts with any of the political
12 leadership, the Bosnian government, or to be precise Muslim leadership,
13 and by that I'm referring to Izetbegovic, Sedrenik, et cetera.
14 A. Are we still talking about April here?
15 Q. No. I'm referring to the entire period of your sojourn there.
16 A. I met many of the political and military leaders in the area
17 throughout my stay, yes. On several occasions.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: These are the Muslim ones? Muslim leaders?
19 THE WITNESS: I don't know what their personal religion.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That was the question.
21 THE WITNESS: Well, I can't answer whether or not they were
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. When I speak about the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, I'm
25 referring to the authorities that had the status of political leaders of
1 the recognised state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that is why I made
2 reference to the Muslims in my question.
3 Did you visit the Main Staff of the Army of BH during any time
4 while you were there? Did you enter the building itself and do you know
5 where it is located?
6 A. At the outset of the conflict in the summer of 1992, it was to my
7 knowledge located in a bank building. That was the headquarters at least
8 of the territorial army and it remained there for sometime, I can't tell
9 you for how long. But, yes, I was there on a number of occasions.
10 Q. Have you ever heard the name of Jovan Divjak?
11 A. I have.
12 Q. How about Stepan Siber?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Sefer Halilovic, Rasim Delic?
15 A. [No audible response].
16 Q. Did you have occasion to see them personally?
17 A. At least some of them. This is a long time ago, I can't tell you
18 which -- I know I met Divjak, for instance, and Halilovic, but I can't be
19 specific as to which ones I met and which ones I just heard about, no.
20 Q. Do you know when the 1st Corps of the BH Army was established?
21 Do you know anything about that?
22 A. I can't give you any direct, you know, answer to that, no.
23 Q. Would you agree with me if I say that throughout the war, or more
24 precisely throughout the year 1993, there were about 70.000 members of BH
25 Army in Sarajevo
1 35.000 were outside of the city, would you agree with these figures?
2 A. I have absolutely no means of verifying that.
3 Q. I'm asking you this purely on the basis of your observations as a
4 war correspondent reporting from various areas about your impressions
5 that you get.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: The witness has answered question. He says he cannot
8 verify those numbers.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excepting I have a little question in my mind.
10 When you say you cannot verify, you are leaving the impression that you
11 have heard of the numbers only, you couldn't verify them. And I thought
12 the intention was to say I don't know of those numbers and I thought, I'm
13 not quite sure what the Defence counsel is doing, but I was expecting
14 that to be clarified.
15 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. Did you hear that these numbers were ever mentioned relating to
18 the strength of the BH Army stationed in and around Sarajevo?
19 A. That's very difficult to answer because who would I have heard it
20 from, and so in a war zone there are rumours flying, there's propaganda
21 flying, there's numbers flying around the whole time, so if I had heard
22 it or not, yes, most probably I have heard that number and a number of
23 other numbers, but like I said I would have no means of verifying, so...
24 Q. I agree. Having giving me the answer to the previous answer
25 [sic], how would you able to distinguish between rumours and what you
1 deem to be a fact or a reliable report that you should send forward?
2 A. In journalism you only state something as fact if it has been
3 independently verified. That is, you know, common practice. If you
4 don't know through independently verifying it or independent
5 confirmation, you will have to quote someone as giving you the number.
6 So you then say, you know, this is a number according to such and such a
8 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo
9 people dressed in civilian clothes but bearing arms and using weapons; is
10 that right?
11 A. No, that's not necessarily right, no.
12 Q. While you were in Sarajevo
13 clothes armed with weapons?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Did you ever see anyone in civilian clothes shooting from a
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Would you agree with me that there was a clear line of separation
19 in Sarajevo
20 A. No.
21 Q. Was it possible for anyone to cross from one side to another
22 without any problems or difficulties?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were the residents of Bascarsija allowed to go to Grbavica
25 without any problems whatsoever?
1 A. Allowed or able?
2 Q. Freely without any problems, could they cross over?
3 A. Nobody would try to stop them, but they would probably not
5 Q. Were the residents of Grbavica able to come over to Bascarsija
6 without facing any problems?
7 A. No, probably not.
8 Q. You gave your first statement to the OTP which is Exhibit P376 in
9 March 1995 while the conflict was actually still in progress; is that
11 A. That's correct, yes.
12 Q. I cannot discern from this statement where you gave this
13 statement, I'm talking about the location, was that in Sarajevo?
14 A. No, it was not.
15 Q. Where did you give this statement?
16 A. In Oslo
17 Q. During 1995, if you can cast your mind back to that period, for
18 how long were you away or absent from Sarajevo during that year?
19 A. I can't give you an exact number, but it would be maybe three or
20 four months.
21 Q. You would agree with me that with respect to certain events that
22 your memory of these events was the most fresh in 1995; is that right?
23 A. Reasonably. I don't have a very good memory for detail, and I
24 don't keep a diary, so I'm not a very good source when it comes to
25 historical events.
1 Q. I would like now to ask you a question about some specific
2 evidence -- incidents. You describe an incident which took place on the
3 23rd of June 1992 when a young boy was killed near Dobrinja. Do you
4 remember that?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. You had an opportunity to go through your statement before
7 testimony, and if necessary we can put it on the screen. In paragraph 9
8 you said that there were no -- no military targets or clustered military
9 targets at the location where this young boy was killed. Do you remember
10 saying that?
11 A. I don't recall my exact wording, but I would probably have said
12 something like there was no --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
14 MR. SAXON: Could the witness's statement be called up on the
15 screen so he can see what Mr. Lukic is referring to.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My apology. Can we look at Exhibit
17 376, paragraph 9, that's in fact page 2 of the statement, I believe. The
18 last paragraph, if we can zoom it in and just scroll it down a bit.
19 Q. Mr. Hvaal, do you see this? [In English] "There were no
20 identifiable military targets in the area."
21 A. Yes, that sounds more like what I said.
22 Q. [Interpretation] I was reading from the B/C/S translation which
23 probably caused some minor deviations.
24 You were supposed to join a group of BH Army soldiers who were
25 supposed to walk together with you to Dobrinja; is that right?
1 A. They were going there, anyway. I was supposed to walk with them.
2 Q. How many soldiers were in the group?
3 A. I would estimate it to have been somewhere between a dozen and
5 Q. And you did leave for Dobrinja with that group that night; right?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. The wounded boy was first approached by BH Army soldiers who
8 wanted to give him help; right?
9 A. No, I don't think so. I think to my recollection it was local
10 civilians who ran into the -- ran to get to him first. I believe perhaps
11 it was a relative of his. I think to my recollection it was an older
12 man. I believe I have a photograph of this. I believe it was an older
13 man who first ran out after he had been shot, yes. I don't think it was
14 a military personnel.
15 Q. If you read the second sentence in paragraph 9, would that
16 refresh your memory to the fact that the soldiers were also there trying
17 to help? And this is your 1995 statement. I'm going to read it: [In
18 English] "The soldiers who went out and gave him first aid were not fired
20 A. Yes, but these were not the first people to move out into the
21 street. The boy was moved before he was given first aid.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Very well. But this was done by the soldiers;
24 A. No, the initial movement of the boy was done by a local civilian,
25 to my recollection.
1 Q. Do you recall that Mojmilo Brdo had been captured by BH Army in
2 late June or early July of that same year when this particular event took
3 place? Do you remember that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. And this incident took place immediately or during this
6 offensive. Does that tally with your recollection?
7 A. Not quite. When I crossed over Mojmilo hill that night and back
8 out the following day, there was no offensive going on yet.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at the next
11 Q. You continue by describing an attack on your vehicle which took
12 place on your way back from Dobrinja to Sarajevo on the afternoon of the
13 following day, that's paragraph 2, do you remember that?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Paragraph 12.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Well, my question is, you were supposed to leave Dobrinja in a
17 three-vehicle convoy as had been arranged from a doctor from Dobrinja; is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the first two vehicles left at 1600 hours and your vehicle
21 left one half an hour later because your interpreter was late; is that
23 A. Times are not entirely accurate, but something like that, yes.
24 Q. If you look at paragraph 16, you will find it that it reads: [In
25 English] "We left twenty to thirty minutes after the other two
1 ambulance..." [Interpretation] This was the basis for my question.
2 A. Sorry, what were you referring to here?
3 Q. Well, if you look from paragraph 16, maybe also paragraph 13, it
4 reads as follows: [In English] "The first two ambulances left at about
5 1600 hours that afternoon." [Interpretation] Then paragraph 16 says
6 that: [In English] "We left Dobrinja at about 1635 hours."
7 A. It says about 1600 hours, it says about 1635 hours and it says 20
8 to 30 minutes after the two ambulances, so like I said, I can't be
9 precise about the times.
10 Q. [Interpretation] I have no desire to lay any trap for you on this
11 minutia, sir. Let me make it clear. Did you hear whether these first
12 two vehicles had come under attack?
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. At any rate, you were not part of that column as a third vehicle?
15 That was my question.
16 A. No, we obviously didn't move in convoy given that two vehicles
17 had left sometime in advance, no.
18 Q. Thank you. If we look at paragraph 20 on the next page, you
19 describe another incident which took place in autumn of 1994 at Sedrenik
20 and at paragraph 21 you say the following: [In English] "I was working
21 on the job at the Kosevo Hospital
22 civilian clothing brought in."
23 [Interpretation] Do you remember your account of that incident as
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. You don't know whether this person had previously been involved
2 in any combat action?
3 A. No, I was not there when he was injured. I could not tell you
5 Q. I assume that if not on a daily basis, you frequently went to the
6 Kosevo Hospital
7 or not; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the people who were permanently in the hospital at Kosevo
10 knew that you were a foreign journalist; right?
11 A. I would assume so, yes.
12 Q. Judging by the photography published in the media and the
13 consequences of the evacuation of children, did you gain some kind of
14 popularity in Sarajevo
16 A. No.
17 Q. During the period while you were visiting the Kosevo hospital,
18 were you able to see wounded soldiers of BH Army being brought to the
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you remember that someone who was brought there -- or rather,
22 do you remember ever being told that someone who was brought to the
23 hospital wounded wearing civilian clothes had actually been a soldier, a
24 fighter wounded in the fighting?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Are you aware that on the 20th of June 1992, the Presidency of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina declared a state of war and the general mobilisation?
3 A. Yes, I am.
4 Q. There's something contradictory here I want to ask you about. In
5 paragraph 23, you say that: [In English] "... clearly marked with 'TV'
6 in black letters on it to a position..." [Interpretation] referring to a
7 vehicle. I'm asking you this because you mentioned orange markings. Did
8 you have different vehicles that you used or is there a mistake here or
9 in the next paragraph?
10 A. We had probably half a dozen different vehicles, and access to
11 tape was limited so we had to use whatever colours we could come by.
12 When we ran out of orange tape, we started using black tape.
13 Q. On transcript page -- just a moment, 2268 -- or rather, we'll
14 move on.
15 In paragraph 24, you say that you had the impression you were
16 deliberately aimed at because you were a journalist, that's the gist of
17 what it says here.
18 A. Sorry, is that a question?
19 Q. Yes. Do you remember having this impression when a bullet
20 whizzed past?
21 A. In paragraph 24?
22 Q. Yes. The second sentence.
23 A. Yes, I believe it was deliberately aimed at me.
24 Q. You remained there for a further 20 minutes together with the
25 other people there; is that right? Try to remember without reading,
2 A. I remained there for about -- sorry, but if this is brought up on
3 the screen am I allowed to look at it or not?
4 Q. I would prefer to have your recollection, but if you can't
5 remember then we'll jog your memory. I'm not asking you to be precise.
6 I'm only asking you to try and recall approximately how long you stayed
8 A. I stayed there for approximately 20 minutes.
9 Q. And I assume that there was a group of civilians there with you,
10 or were you there on your own?
11 A. There were a group of civilians there with me, yes.
12 Q. And after this bullet was fired, no other bullets were fired in
13 your direction subsequently?
14 A. I found it pertinent to change my location, but there were
15 several more rounds that came in, yes.
16 Q. Well, I ask you this because I read your statement and the last
17 sentence of paragraph 24 is: [In English] "No further shots were fired
18 at us after the shot that missed me." [Interpretation] Was your memory
19 fresher when you were giving your statement then, in 1995?
20 A. To my recollection now and regardless of what I read here, I
21 believe that there were more shots fired.
22 Q. You had an opportunity of reading this statement before you made
23 another statement and you introduced certain corrections, but you did not
24 alter this sentence; is that right?
25 A. I think to be honest, it just -- you know, I didn't notice. It
1 didn't register. Whether or not I remember it correctly, this is, as you
2 know, a long time ago, I can't tell you.
3 Q. You were also able to see this statement before you testified in
4 the Galic case and again it remained unchanged?
5 A. Yes, I would assume that's true, yes.
6 Q. Yesterday when asked by Mr. Saxon whether you abide by that
7 statement in full, and whether you have had an opportunity to read it,
8 you said yes, and that you did abide by it; is that correct? You said
9 that yesterday?
10 A. Yes, that's true.
11 Q. You did not want to correct anything in any of the paragraphs?
12 A. I'm sorry, was that a question?
13 Q. Well, it's a statement. You had nothing to change when you read
14 this statement during your proofing a few days ago, you didn't alter any
15 of the paragraphs?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Now I'll put a few questions to you concerning your second
18 statement. That's P377. And you made it on the 14th and 15th of
19 February 2001. And in this statement you described how you visited the
20 positions of the Army of Republika Srpska for the first time in early
21 1993. Do you remember that that was when you first went to visit the
22 positions of the Army of Republika Srpska?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
24 MR. SAXON: Well, my red lights apparently are not working, I
25 will try to speak up. Perhaps if Mr. Lukic could bring the second
1 statement on to the screen so the witness could see it, Your Honour.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Could we please have
3 paragraph 6. It's probably on page 2.
4 Q. Do you see? It's paragraph 6 in English. First try to remember,
5 Mr. Hvaal, whether you visited the positions of the VRS around the city
6 of Sarajevo
7 A. As part of an -- sort of official organised visit, yes, but
8 obviously in order to get in and out of the city, you would have to
9 visit, you know, Bosnian Serb [indiscernible]. I had been in contact
10 with Bosnian Serb military on many occasions before this when entering
11 and leaving the city, but I think that would have been the first proper
12 tour organised, yes.
13 Q. Before that did you ask to join such an organised visit?
14 A. Yes, on many occasions.
15 Q. You said here, to be precise, that you visited those positions
16 about a dozen times during the war. When you testified on page 2252 you
17 said eight to ten times. I'm not asking you to be that very precise but
18 is that approximately this number of official visits to the VRS
19 throughout the war?
20 A. I can't give you a more exact number than -- certainly not today
21 and I can't give you an exact number than somewhere between 8 and 12 or
22 about a dozen or in that region, yes.
23 Q. Does this include your visits to press conferences, for example,
24 at Pale, or are you referring exclusively to visiting combat positions?
25 A. The -- that would include visits to press conferences, but there
1 were very few of those. Press conferences are not very interesting to
3 Q. Can you tell us approximately when you last visited those
4 positions in relation to the end of the conflict?
5 A. That would have been during the pullout from Grbavica after the
7 Q. Can you tell me approximately in the course of 1994 and 1995 how
8 many times did you visit the combat positions?
9 A. Not beyond several times because the number I've given you
10 includes the entire 1992 through 1995, so I can't give you -- it would
11 have been several times, but I can't give you any more than that, no.
12 Q. When these visits were organised, as you told us, did you go on
13 your own or were you accompanied by someone from your editorial office or
14 were there other journalists from other media present?
15 A. That would vary greatly, but it would normally be, and I stress,
16 it would normally be a question of more than one organisation going in
17 teams at the same time. But I did go alone as well, yes.
18 Q. In paragraphs 18 and 19 of this statement, you say that an offer
19 was made for you to fire shots more than once during your visits. My
20 question to you is you never agreed to do that, did you?
21 A. No, I did not.
22 Q. Did any other journalist or reporter agree to do that?
23 A. I have no way of knowing that.
24 Q. Were you able to see anyone from your group taking up a weapon in
25 their hands while you were there?
1 A. No, I don't recall anyone taking a weapon in their hands, no.
2 Q. Would you agree with me that you assume they would have actually
3 given you a weapon but nobody actually asked for a weapon or took one; is
4 that right?
5 A. No, I wouldn't agree with that. I have no way of knowing what
6 goes on inside the head of somebody who says or asks me, offers me to use
7 a weapon. Whether or not there's a genuine offer is something I can't
8 have an opinion on.
9 Q. Do you remember as you described Kosevo hospital quite a lot,
10 from what Serb positions is there a view from the Kosevo hospital? Can
11 you tell us what those positions would be?
12 A. I'm no longer able to recall without looking at a map the names
13 of the various hills around Sarajevo
14 specific list of which hills, you know, gave a view of what part of the
15 city. That would be pure guesswork.
16 Q. We'll have to put a map on the screen, but first I'll ask you,
17 when you were visiting the positions of the VRS, did you visit any
18 positions from which you remember clearly seeing the Kosevo Hospital
19 the entrance to the hospital?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Grbavica was a place in Sarajevo
23 A. Large parts of it, yes.
24 Q. And Serb civilians lived there; right?
25 A. To my knowledge there were some, but not many. I have -- I never
1 saw large numbers of civilians in Grbavica, but I knew that there were
2 some there, and when the withdrawal happened, there were civilians
3 involved in that. Whether they had been there the whole time when the
4 withdrawal happened or not, I don't know.
5 Q. Did you ever visit the hospital on VRS-controlled territory
6 either in Sarajevo
7 A. I visited what I believe was either a nursing home or an
8 old-people's home. I believe a nursing home in the Nedzarici, perhaps.
9 Yes, that would have been late in the conflict.
10 Q. Did you take any photographs there, did you report from there?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Were you ever at a sniper position of the BH Army?
13 A. Yes, depending on your definition of a sniper position. I was in
14 locations from which it was reasonable to assume that sniping was being
15 carried out.
16 Q. Did you see sniper weapons there on the spot and the people
17 manning the snipers?
18 A. What do you mean by a sniper weapon?
19 Q. It's a rifle or an automatic rifle with an optical sight
21 A. I have seen those on many occasion, yes, but that doesn't
22 necessarily have any bearing on -- in our definition of sniping, the
23 presence of an optical sight does not have anything to do with whether or
24 not something is defined as sniping.
25 Q. You received information about the sites from which snipers were
1 shooting from UNPROFOR; is that right?
2 A. From the United Nations military observers who were there as part
3 of UNPROFOR, yes, but they were an independent, unarmed observation post.
4 Q. After visiting these locations at Grbavica, did you tell them
5 what you had seen and where you had been?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Tell who?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Referring to UNPROFOR.
9 A. We don't -- as a general rule journalists don't report to any of
10 the sides or elements involved in a conflict. The information that we
11 have to give forward is basically the same as what we would do in our
12 news stories and coverage and so on. Whether we shared information
13 informally with UN personnel or anyone else, that would be a basis from
14 one case to the other. And certainly there was no system for this, no.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we take the break
16 now, please, and then I'll move on to another topic after the break.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, we'll take a break and come
18 back at 4.00. Court adjourned.
19 --- Recess taken at 3.22 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 3.59 p.m.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hvaal, while you were in Sarajevo did you
24 visit the positions of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on Mount Hum
25 A. I went on several trips up Mount Hum, but I don't think I
1 remember -- I don't recall visiting proper positions. I think we were
2 moving up trying to get there, trying to have a look at the situation,
3 but to what extent there were positions, I can't remember.
4 Q. Just tell me briefly, I won't ask you about details, did you go
5 up Mount Igman
6 holding positions there, just briefly?
7 A. Yes, many times.
8 Q. Did you go up Mount Zuc
9 they were there?
10 A. Sorry, I'm having a -- I can't remember where that is at the
11 moment, I'm sorry.
12 Q. While you were visiting the sniper positions at Grbavica, in
13 paragraph 15 of the second statement which is now on the screen, you said
14 that when you entered those premises where you found those people whom
15 you said were snipers, that you saw holes in the wall, that's what it
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. These holes in the walls, were they a result of target practice
19 or was it damage from fighting, from combat?
20 A. No.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand the answer.
22 THE WITNESS: They were neither of the --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of the two.
24 THE WITNESS: Neither of the two.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Will you tell us what caused those holes? What sort of holes
3 were they?
4 A. They were manmade, probably with sledgehammers or some sort of
5 hard mechanical implement.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know what purpose they were made for?
7 THE WITNESS: Common way of building a sniper position is to use
8 several --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Openings.
10 THE WITNESS: Several holes that are not in the -- in order to
11 protect the sniper, sorry. This is -- it can't be explained in one
12 sentence, I am afraid, this. A sniper is very rarely in the wall, on the
13 outside wall of the building. He is usually at least one wall back.
14 Now, there will be several openings in the outside wall and in the wall
15 into the room where the sniper is so that there is a very, very narrow
16 tunnel, imaginary tunnel through which he can shoot. This is to protect
17 him so he can't be seen and the muzzle flash can't be seen and he can
18 literally only see a very small area through those holes. That is a
19 common way of building a sniper position if done by somebody who knows
20 how to do this.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Proceed, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. But these were not openings intended for shooting through them?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
1 MR. SAXON: I'm not sure if the answer to that question is clear
2 because Mr. Lukic asked the question in a negative structure, the witness
3 responded yes, and I'm not quite sure what he is saying.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does the answer mean yes, they are not intended
5 for that?
6 THE WITNESS: They are intended for -- to use for firing and
7 looking. Observation and fire.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's try to listen to the question and answer it
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
11 Q. I -- well, we have the witness's clarification. The reason I ask
12 is that in paragraph 15 it says "holes in the wall" and in 17 it says
13 "loop-holes," and that's why I wanted to see whether these were one AND
14 the same, but the witness is now saying that the holes were made for this
15 purpose to be used as loop-holes?
16 A. Sorry, loop-holes?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't see loop-holes in paragraph 17.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was reading from the Serbian where
19 it says "holes in the wall." It says "holes in the wall" in the Serbian
21 Q. You were accompanied by an officer who brought you there and who
22 said that these were observation positions; is that right?
23 A. I can't recall his exact words, but yes, it would have been
24 something to that effect, yes.
25 Q. It says this in paragraph 14, but I wanted to speed things up a
1 little. While you were there, no one actually fired from those
2 positions; is that correct?
3 A. That is correct, yes.
4 Q. Whenever you visited the positions of the Serb forces, no one was
5 actually firing while you were at those positions? I'm not referring
6 only to sniper positions, but all positions. Is that right?
7 A. You mean the positions that -- do you mean the position that --
8 the actual position where I was or do you mean in the general vicinity of
9 it, just that particular position? There would be small arms fire going
10 out, but that's very difficult to say how close it's going out from, so
11 on and so forth, but anything beyond -- are you talking about all kinds
12 of weapons here? No. There would have been outgoing fire from fairly
13 close by, yes, but normally small arms. I don't think I saw artillery
14 pieces being fired right in front of me, no. No.
15 Q. In the Galic case on page 2258, line 24, you said that it was
16 only towards the end of 1993 that it was possible to go to Grbavica,
17 before that, there was heavy fighting there. Do you remember that that
18 is how it was?
19 A. I would -- I mean, that would have been my assessment of it, it
20 was too dangerous. Whether or not something would have gone badly wrong
21 if you had tried it, I can't tell you that, that would be hypothetical.
22 But I think the general assessment amongst the media at the time was that
23 travelling to Grbavica was, you know, at the best of times dangerous,
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm trying to find the reference you are giving
3 us. I'm not finding at page 2258, line 24.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 2258, that's where it begins and then
5 it continues on page 2259, from 1 to 5.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: From 1 to 5. Thank you.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you remember that in early 1994 so-called anti-sniping
9 measures were introduced in Sarajevo
10 A. I can't tell you exactly -- I can't confirm the exact date on
11 that, but at some point -- are you referring to the anti-sniping measures
12 that UNPROFOR implemented?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know who Caca and Celo are? Are you familiar with these
17 A. To my recollection, they were two, I don't know exactly how to
18 describe them. A sort of mixture between paramilitary and criminal gang
19 maybe, but again I don't know if they've ever been convicted of anything,
20 but this is just an assumption. But they were known armed, they were
21 known to have armed people and they were operating to some extent as part
22 of the Bosnian government military. It was very -- these were not people
23 that we had a lot to do with for very -- for good reason.
24 Q. Are you aware that Ramiz Delalic, "Celo" was member of the 9th
25 Mountain Brigade and Musan Topalovic, "Caca" was member of the 10th
1 Mountain Brigade of the 1st corps of the BH Army? Are you aware of that,
2 that they were members of the BH Army?
3 A. I don't recall having had that information or if I have, I have
4 forgotten it.
5 Q. Fine. Have you ever heard about the Silos camp in Hadzici?
6 A. The what?
7 Q. S-i-l-o-s, Silos.
8 A. Not to my recollection, no.
9 Q. Have you heard about a camp set up in the Viktor Bubanj army
11 A. I've heard about the Viktor Bubanj army barracks, but a camp, no,
12 again not to my recollection, no.
13 Q. In paragraphs 35 to 47 of the same statement you described things
14 that you saw in and around the Kosevo Hospital
15 describe having heard shots from mortars and small calibre weapons coming
16 from the surrounding area of the hospital. That is in paragraph 41.
17 Having said that, does that mean that you thought that these
18 shots were fired by the BH Army? Because this particular area was under
19 their control; is that right?
20 A. I would assume that, yes.
21 Q. In paragraph 42, you said that you sometimes had an opportunity
22 to see a vehicle coming hastily, equipment was being unloaded, a few
23 shells are fired and then the equipment would be loaded on the vehicle
24 again and it would speedily move away; is that right?
25 A. That is correct, yes.
1 Q. And there were both men in uniform and in civilians -- civilian
2 clothes around those vehicles that you saw; is that right?
3 A. Yes, I would assume so, yes. I don't recall -- certainly
4 uniform, but it might very well be that there had been civilian clothes
5 as well, especially in the winter because of the lack of warm uniforms.
6 Q. What was the distance between the flat where you lived and the
7 hospital, can you tell us that?
8 A. Oh ...
9 Q. Well, actually, I'm more interested to hear how far this vehicle
10 that would come with the weapons, how far it was from the hospital
11 roughly speaking.
12 A. Well, they -- my flat in a straight line is probably say less
13 than a kilometre, but this is, I -- you know, I mean the -- walking --
14 you could easily walk to the hospital in a relatively short period of
15 time so it wasn't far away. But the road was not straight by any means,
16 but less than a kilometre in a straight line, I would estimate.
17 Q. Is that the same street where the Belvedere Hotel is situated?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. The Belvedere Hotel is about 100 metres away from the hospital;
21 A. Again it depends. The hospital is a very large area, many
22 buildings there. Now, when I speak about the hospital, I would normally
23 speak about the emergency unit, the trauma unit, which is further away, I
24 believe, than that.
25 Q. Did you ever take photographs of those scenes? I'm referring to
1 the vehicles coming, dismounting the mortars, the shooting, et cetera,
2 because you were able to see that from your window, weren't you?
3 A. To my recollection, this would only ever happen at night, and
4 there -- it would be a pointless exercise to try and photograph it.
5 Technically it would be very difficult, and to try -- soldiers who
6 operate at night tend to not like having flashes from cameras fired at
7 them. It's usually not a good idea to try to do that, as it were. So
8 no, I don't think I ever photographed that sort of mobile artillery
9 position, no.
10 Q. In paragraph 43 you say that you had heard rumours circulating
11 around at the time that there was mortar fire coming from the hospital
12 itself. Do you recall saying that and can you tell us who did you hear
13 these rumours from, can you remember?
14 A. It -- no, I can't give you a name of someone who said that. That
15 would have been --
16 Q. Please don't try and guess.
17 A minute ago you asked me when I asked you about the period in
18 1995 that you spent in Sarajevo
19 specific events and I would like you to tell me if you were in Sarajevo
20 during that time.
21 Yesterday I asked you whether you were there in February 1994
22 when the event at Markale happened and you said you didn't. Now, do you
23 recall, were you in Sarajevo
24 the Alipasino Polje incident where a number of children were killed?
25 A. January 1994, I think I was, yes.
1 Q. Do you remember shooting photographs of that incident?
2 A. Of which incident?
3 Q. The shelling of Alipasino Polje, where a number of children were
4 killed? Specifically on Klara Zetkin Street, if that's helpful.
5 A. I don't think I photographed that, no. But then I was not the
6 only photographer there for the AP, so you know, it doesn't mean that we
7 didn't cover it.
8 Q. Do you know where the flea market in Bascarsija is?
9 A. I know there is one, but I couldn't describe to you where it is
10 now, no.
11 Q. Do you remember being in Sarajevo when an incident happened there
12 in December 1994?
13 A. An incident?
14 Q. Involving shelling.
15 A. I am sorry, but there were shells falling on Sarajevo every
16 single day, so to remember one specific incident where a shell landed in
17 a part of town where shells landed every day would be extremely difficult
18 for somebody who was there for a long period of time. So I'm sorry. I
19 would just be guessing to say if I could remember an incident from a
20 month in a year.
21 Q. Very well. I'm not going to ask you any further questions about
23 The photographs that we saw yesterday in this courtroom, can you
24 remember, were these photographs published in the Serbian media, and if
25 you do remember, can you tell us in which media?
1 A. I don't know that. I know that the story itself was reported,
2 but no, I don't know.
3 Q. In paragraph 64, if we can please have it on our screens, you say
4 that: [In English] "I must trust that I have no loyalty to any one
5 faction within the former Yugoslavia
6 saying this?
7 A. M'mm-hmm.
8 Q. And you stand by it; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In the same statement, paragraph 3 at the beginning, which is on
11 page 2, if we can also have it on the screen, you said - we'll have it on
12 our screens shortly - [In English]: "If I were to try to explain the
13 situation in Sarajevo
14 am an experienced observer of various war zones. This I feel equips me
15 with an objective view of what I experienced in one of these places and
16 I'm able to fairly compare one with another."
17 [Interpretation] I suppose that you stand by this statement as
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Yesterday when I asked you, and I think that we agreed that one
21 of the main features of the code of conduct of journalists is to be an
22 objective -- to be objective and to report the truth; is that right?
23 A. To the extent that it's possible, yes.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have document 1D00-2697
25 on our screens.
1 Q. Do you recall giving an interview in January 2006 to some
2 journalists with relation to the website of the Olympus company, and that
3 rather long interview with you was published on this website?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I'd like to read just one sentence out to you, and I would then
6 kindly ask you to give us your comment. That's on page -- actually, last
7 page of the document. The journalist asked you: [In English] "Not only
8 do I have the right to be political and subjective, I consider it's the
9 duty to express myself freely through my images. There is no such thing
10 as objective photojournalism."
11 [Interpretation] Do you remember stating this?
12 A. This is written by an advertising agency, so it might not be an
13 entire -- entirely precise quote, but something to that effect, yes.
14 Q. [In English] "Subjectivity begins already at the point of
15 selecting what to photograph. Then comes the issue of timing, technical
16 choice, editing and so on. The finished imagine will also be the
17 photographer's personal messenger to the viewer."
18 [Interpretation] Do you remember putting it like this?
19 A. Again something to that effect, yes.
20 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo
21 you were going to photograph and what images you are going to observe?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And through this conduit you conveyed your subjective message;
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Thank you Mr. Hvaal, I finished with my
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. Mr. Saxon. Just before you
4 start, Mr. Lukic, what do you want to do with 1D00-2697?
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I move for it to be admitted into
6 evidence, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: How many pages is it?
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] A total of three pages. But I move
9 that we only tender and admit page 3. The rest of the interview speaks
10 more about the art of photography, but if Mr. Saxon believes that we can
11 have the entire document, I have no objection to that. However, I
12 propose that we only admit page 3.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 3 of that article is admitted into evidence.
14 May it please be given an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D23.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Thank you, Mr. Saxon, sorry
17 about that.
18 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:
19 Q. Mr. Hvaal, going back to my colleague's last question: "During
20 your stay in Sarajevo
21 to photograph and what images you are going to observe." You said yes.
22 How did you make that kind of selection?
23 A. The -- as was pointed out earlier, it is impossible to conduct
24 all covering objective journalism. When the television cameras in this
25 courtroom focuses on somebody, somebody else is not seen in the frame.
1 Now that in itself is subjective. It means that something is missing
2 from the picture. Now, we know if somebody is sitting outside the frame
3 doing this about whatever is being said. We simple don't know that.
4 Q. Can the record just reflect that the witness twirled his finger
5 to the side of his head, please.
6 A. So there is an inherent process of selection. You cannot trust
7 an image or an article or television footage or a website as such. The
8 only element in the process of journalism that you can trust or choose to
9 trust is the messenger. The people -- the messengers, the people who go
10 to these places and report these things, the editors who edit the stories
11 and put them out and do everything in their power to make this as
12 accurate and reliable as possible. We cannot be in any way objective in
13 the sense that as soon as you point your camera one direction, something
14 else is not going to be in the picture. You cannot have 360-degree,
15 24-hour coverage of everything that goes on everywhere all the time.
16 That would be objective, but then it would be impossible technically in
17 every other way impossible. So yes, we do make selections. It is up to
18 you, the viewers of this, to decide who is to be trusted and who is not.
19 The best way that you can describe what is, in my eye or my view, a good
20 journalist or a good photographer is somebody who can be described as a
21 trusted or a reliable messenger. Somebody who brings you the essence,
22 what is important. Somebody who makes those decisions, very difficult
23 decisions as to what needs to be shown and what is not quite so
25 Q. And for example, when you were working as a photojournalist in
2 be shown, needed to be shown?
3 A. It would be part of a larger decision-making process, not just
4 based on the sort of individual incident, but also depending on what had
5 been covered before, does it fit into our coverage, is it at a new aspect
6 of it, shall we -- let's say there is yet another shelling with yet more
7 casualties one day, nothing is new in this situation given that this goes
8 on every day, so perhaps we should on that given day try and focus on
9 something else, trying to put together a nuanced, how shall I say, as
10 accurate an image as possible of what the story is, what is going on.
11 But this judgement, these decisions have to be made from, you know,
12 minute to minute because the situation changes all the time.
13 Q. Okay. Mr. Hvaal, changing the subject now, yesterday at page
14 2240 of the transcript, starting at line 6, Mr. Lukic asked you: "While
15 you were still in Belgrade
16 occasion to follow the reporting of the Yugoslav media, the Belgrade
17 media, or did you hear the comments of those media about reporting from
19 After you started reporting from Sarajevo in 1992, did you ever
20 have occasion to go to Belgrade
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. On those visits to Belgrade
23 members of the Belgrade
25 A. Oh, yes, very much so.
1 Q. Can you describe what kinds of comments you received?
2 A. The -- as I said also yesterday, it's a collaborative effort
3 covering a situation like that. So the coverage out of Sarajevo would be
4 closely coordinated with the Belgrade
5 on, so when you meet those colleagues there, obviously they are going to
6 comment on your performance, we are going to comment on their
7 performance. We are very much aware of what everyone is doing and trying
8 to do in a situation like that. It's a very small club of people in
9 these international media organisations.
10 Q. But apart from the people working for the Associated Press, did
11 you receive comments from journalists about your reporting from Sarajevo
12 A. Yes, certainly, yes.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Local journalists, you mean, local journalists in
15 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did, yes.
17 MR. SAXON:
18 Q. Can you describe briefly what kind of comments you received?
19 A. They would be largely positive, because -- well, yeah, largely
21 Q. Moving to another topic, the effect of the photo of Irma Ha
22 dzimuratovic, which is Exhibit P380. At page 2244 of the transcript
23 starting at line 12 Mr. Lukic asked you: "I concluded on the basis of
24 your testimony that through the media this photograph caused quite a
25 reaction, or at any rate, yielded the effect of having children treated
1 abroad, so in a way it is that photograph that galvanized the public, as
2 it were." And in your answer at line 16 you said: "I would say that
3 initially it galvanized the media, and then from there on pressure was
4 brought on in a number of western countries."
5 Mr. Hvaal, when you say that this photograph of this girl
6 galvanized the media, could you explain that a bit more, please.
7 Galvanized the media to do what?
8 A. The -- I think I described yesterday the frustration of
9 repeatedly producing and distributing photographs and stories about all
10 civilian casualties, but you know, including these children who cannot in
11 any way seem to be combatants and therefore, in our opinion and I think
12 any sane person's opinion, should be, you know, given medical treatment
13 rather than be locked up inside a besieged city without the necessary
14 facilities. That degree of -- you know, there wasn't much response in
15 the international community to those things. Yes, there was an air lift,
16 but it didn't take passengers out. There were a little bit of relief
17 coming in, but there was no real effort in terms of the hospitals, in
18 terms of, you know, the things that really needed to be do to help these
20 Q. Okay, but, Mr. Hvaal, we need to move more quickly here.
21 A. Sure.
22 Q. So galvanized the media to do what?
23 A. To -- it basically meant that we focused -- pretty much all the
24 media in Sarajevo
25 making stories about this girl Irma, given that she seemed to be striking
1 a nerve with the readers of newspapers, with television viewers and so
2 on. So everyone piled on more pressure, wrote more stories and so on and
3 produced more television footage in order to keep that snowball running,
4 as it were.
5 Q. To use your term, "this snowball," can you estimate how long this
6 snowball or this media campaign lasted?
7 A. I can estimate it to have lasted for maybe a couple of weeks,
8 maybe a bit more, until the actual first proper evacuation started
9 happening. A few weeks, that's the best I can do.
10 Q. Beginning when?
11 A. Beginning on, well, probably the next day after the initial wire
12 photographs went out, the ones that I took and other wire services took
13 in August, and then the next day everyone was doing the story basically.
14 Q. Okay. And roughly this period of or process of evacuations,
15 roughly how long did the evacuations -- for how long a period of time
16 were these evacuations carried out?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Saxon is going
19 beyond my cross-examination, beyond the scope of the cross, because I
20 asked exclusively on the media, questions about the media and about the
21 impact of photographs on public opinion, but I did not discuss the
22 evacuation itself.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
24 MR. SAXON: Well, first of all, Mr. -- in response to Mr. Lukic's
25 question yesterday, Mr. Hvaal talked about how the photograph galvanized
1 the media. And of course the result of that was these evacuations of
2 children. Second of all, more specifically today, Your Honours, at page
3 12 of the line note line 7, my colleague precisely referred to the
4 evacuation of children in a question to Mr. Hvaal he said: "Judging by
5 your photography that was published in the media and the consequence of
6 the evacuation of children, did you gain some popularity in Sarajevo
7 Did your name become a household name?" So I think the simple question
8 asking approximately how long the evacuations went on for falls within
9 the scope of re-examination, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure. I see Mr. Lukic is shaking
11 his head but not standing up so I want to assume that you have quoted him
12 correctly, therefore, I don't need to go and check the record. Then in
13 that event, I'll, what is the word, dismiss the objection. Sorry, I'm
14 using the wrong word there. I've forgotten the word.
15 MR. SAXON:
16 Q. Mr. Hvaal, approximately for what period of time did these
17 evacuations of children take place?
18 A. For a period of at least several weeks, possibly more than a
19 month. It would have been -- it took awhile before it got going. There
20 was a lot of politics and stuff going on and then there were several
21 rounds of evacuations. So I would say it lasted for a period of several
22 weeks, more than a month maybe even. Something like that, around a
24 Q. And did the local and international media report about these
1 A. Yes, it was probably the most widely covered story out of the
2 entire siege, I would say. A lot of media who were not normally in
4 of the children.
5 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Hvaal, according to your testimony today, in
9 page 33, point 5 to 23 you have described what I will try to gather in
10 synthesis from you. In a way, you were saying that a image is both a
11 message and a messenger, which is to say that the image is not only the
12 vehicle of a message but also expressed in somewhat, some way the
13 messenger, because you said first that the process of objectivity could
14 not be understood fully and completely since there is an incompleteness
15 in every image because as soon as you focused, then the surroundings or
16 the totality of the universe is not reflected. So carries in itself an
17 inherent incompleteness. That's one of the reasons you gave.
18 Second, that in the selection it's up to the photographer to
19 reflect part of himself or the totality of himself, his art, his skills,
20 vision, artistic flavour, whatever, so in a way the objectivity of the
21 image is only relative to the extent that it carries a message which
22 could never be complete, and also carries the imprint of a personal actor
23 who also could in the cover every possibility. But then from these two
24 incompleteness, you reach the problem of trust that an image could be
25 reliable as reflecting a portion of that incomplete reality and a portion
1 of that incomplete selection to the extent that there are trusted
2 messengers. Have I put you what you wanted to say in other words, to
3 illustrate myself, can I examine later on your testimony?
4 A. Yes, sir, I believe you have.
5 JUDGE DAVID: Okay. Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we have, I think it's P376, the statement of
7 the witness that was made on the 28th of March 1995 on the screen,
8 please, at paragraph 8.
9 Mr. Hvaal, if you look at paragraph 8, you say in that paragraph
10 "in the street outside of," and I believe that word should be heavily,
11 "of the heavily damaged building where I was waiting, I heard the sound
12 of two bullet impacts with only one or two seconds between them." Now,
13 I'm not quite sure how heavily damaged this building was, but were you
14 inside of this building at this time? And I tell you why I ask you is
15 because you say, "I heard people screaming, we ran outside and found a
16 boy of about ten sitting on the street." Am I right to assume that had
17 been inside an enclosure somewhere out of which you ran?
18 A. I would assume that. It would be very unwise to be out -- as a
19 general rule you are not outdoors unless you have to in an area, in a
20 situation like that. So and I was new to this area at this time. So I
21 would assume that I would have been indoors, yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you ran outside after the one or two bullet
23 impacts had sounded.
24 A. It would have been triggered by the screams, because the bullet
25 impacts would not have been enough to make me go outside.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. But the screams could only come after the
3 A. That's right.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: They couldn't come before.
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. So after you went outside, there were no
7 more bullets?
8 A. Not in the immediate vicinity, no.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, at least not targeting this boy or the
10 immediate vicinity of this young man?
11 A. Nothing that was discernible, no.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks. Now then if you look at paragraph 10 on
13 the screen again.
14 A. There isn't one here.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, if we could get paragraph 10 come on the
16 screen, please. Can you see that? You say in that paragraph: "The
17 bullets came from an easterly direction from a place called Hrasno Brdo."
18 And my question to you is how did you determine the direction from which
19 the bullets came?
20 A. Would have been a combination of the impact, I mean the track --
21 this boy had his chest completely perforated, the two rounds had gone
22 through him, so it was possible to see the direction of the blood
23 splashes on the ground where he had been hit. The blood would have
24 splashed in the direction of the rounds coming through him.
25 It's also because we knew where he was when he had been hit from
1 the blood on the ground. You can then based on that, depending on what
2 the buildings and trees and so on, you know, around that, you can
3 estimate what can be -- you know, what angle can you -- what can you
4 actually see from that position. So it would have been a combination of,
5 you know, these factors. There may have been bullet impacts, but I would
6 assume that it was primarily from the direction of the blood and from
7 where because we knew exactly where he had been when he had been hit,
8 which is quite rare. Normally there is some movement afterwards.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you saying he was hit and he fell down there
10 and there was no movement until you arrived?
11 A. He was sitting on the ground. He had been hit by two high
12 velocity, you know, large calibre rounds, which to a young boy is such a
13 shock to the system. His chest -- you know, he was hit literally in the
14 chest or in the abdomen, I think, in this area somewhere. That would be
15 such a shock to the system, he would probably not be able to move after
16 such an impact. One would be enough. Two would be a terrifying impact
17 on a small boy like that, yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. When that day you went to Dobrinja,
19 how did you travel?
20 A. On the way in I walked with a unit from the Bosnian military,
21 Bosnian government military. They were going there carrying, as far as I
22 know, supplies of some sorts.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Walking, they were also walking?
24 A. Yeah.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Any questions arising from
1 the question from the Bench? Mr. Saxon? Mr. Lukic?
2 Thank you very much, Mr. Hvaal, that brings us to the conclusion
3 of your testimony, let me just say thank you for you coming to testify
4 before the Tribunal. You are now excused, you may go back home, please
5 travel well back home. Thank you so much.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. --
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, with your permission, I would also leave
10 the courtroom at this time.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we give you leave to leave, Mr. Saxon, just
12 a small point that the Bench would like to raise with the parties with
13 respect to the testimony of this witness. The witness testified on a
14 number of incidents that are mentioned in his statement and the one
15 photograph that he showed us. Are these scheduled incidents or are they
16 not scheduled incidents or -- and if they are not scheduled incidents,
17 what is the status of this evidence, given the decision that was made
18 that the Prosecution will limit itself to scheduled incidents? I'm
19 throwing it open to both parties to give the Bench guidance.
20 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, to answer your first question, no, this
21 witness did not refer to scheduled incidents. These were not unscheduled
22 incidents within the meaning of the Chamber's decision of May 2007, nor
23 of the Trial Chamber's more recent decision of 31 October because they
24 were not identified as such in the witness's 65 ter summary. The
25 Prosecution felt that this evidence was relevant and probative to the
1 issue of the level and kinds of notice that would have been aware -- that
2 of would have been available to the accused about the events in Sarajevo
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are neither scheduled nor unscheduled
4 incidents, do I understand you correctly to be saying that?
5 MR. SAXON: Correct, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Do you have anything to say,
7 Mr. Lukic?
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have nothing to add, Your Honour.
9 In relation to what is on evidence, I was concerned that the unscheduled
10 incident that this witness was due to testify about should not be
11 admitted into evidence. However, the witness did not testify to that and
12 I cross-examined him on points I felt relevant for the Defence. My whole
13 line of cross-examination concerned mainly evaluating the general
14 objectivity of the witness's observations.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I think that the Trial Chamber is
16 grateful that the parties are at one as to the status of this evidence.
17 Thank you so much. You are now released, Mr. Saxon, you may leave.
18 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.
20 MR. SAXON: Mr. Thomas will be leading the next witness.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Thomas, you want to be
22 changing the positions.
23 MR. THOMAS: I will do that, thank you, Your Honour, and the
24 Prosecution calls Colonel Koster who is a 92 ter witness, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who is a?
1 MR. THOMAS: Colonel Koster.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who is a?
3 MR. THOMAS: 92 ter witness.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, sir. Will you please make the
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
10 Mr. Thomas, looking at the witness's statement or testimony when
11 he testified, I don't see his first name, could you make sure we get a
12 first name, please.
13 MR. THOMAS: I will do that, Your Honours.
14 WITNESS: EELCO CHRISTIAN MARTIN JODOCUS KOSTER
15 Examination by Mr. Thomas:
16 Q. Colonel, could you begin, please, by giving us your full name?
17 A. My full name is Eelco Christian Martin Jodocus Koster.
18 Q. And your date of birth?
19 A. I was born on 18 October 1968
20 Q. On can you tell us please, Colonel your current occupation?
21 A. At this time I work for the Royal Dutch Military Constabulary.
22 Q. And what is your current rank?
23 A. I'm currently a lieutenant-colonel.
24 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, could we please have 65 ter 09353 on
25 the screen, please.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. 09353.
2 MR. THOMAS:
3 Q. Colonel, do you recognize this as a transcript of testimony that
4 you gave in a Rule 61 hearing before this Tribunal?
5 A. Yes, I recognise this one.
6 Q. Did you have the opportunity yesterday to review that transcript?
7 A. Yes, I had that opportunity.
8 Q. Are you able to confirm for Their Honours that what is contained
9 in the transcript is true and correct to the best of your knowledge and
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. And if I were to ask you the same questions again, would your
13 answers be the same?
14 A. Absolutely.
15 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
16 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, if that could please be admitted as a
17 Prosecution exhibit.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Transcript is admitted. May it please be given an
19 exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P383.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
23 If we could please have 65 ter 9354 on the screen. And perhaps,
24 Your Honours, if we could have page 2, which might be of more assistance
25 than page 1.
1 Q. Colonel, do you recognise what you see on the screen now as the
2 transcript of your testimony in the Popovic case before this Tribunal?
3 A. Absolutely I recognise that.
4 Q. Thank you, again --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, is that -- now I can see there are letters
6 written there. In my paper -- my document it looked like everything has
7 been erased and...
8 MR. THOMAS: Your Honour, I think that is a product of it looks
9 to be the shading that's been employed to highlight but that's obviously
10 had the contrary effect. If I could just check a moment, Your Honour,
11 that we have some cleaner copies. Your Honour, I have a copy here that
12 does have the shading, but obviously in a -- to a lesser degree than
13 appears on the copy that Your Honour has. And I can provide that
14 immediately, if that is of some assistance here.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: That would be very helpful, because I didn't read
16 that, I thought this is deleted and I'm not supposed to read it. Thank
17 you. This is much better.
18 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Thomas.
20 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Colonel, again, did you have the opportunity to review this
22 transcript yesterday?
23 A. Yes, I read that yesterday.
24 Q. Can you confirm to Their Honours that the contents are true and
25 correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?
1 A. Absolutely.
2 Q. And if I asked you the same questions today, would your answers
3 be the same?
4 A. Yes, my answers would be the same.
5 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
6 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, could that please be admitted as a
7 Prosecution exhibit.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted as a Prosecution exhibit. May it
9 please be given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P384.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, I now have a summary prepared of the
13 testimony that is comprised within those two transcripts. If I could be
14 permitted to read that into the record at this point?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, you may.
16 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Lieutenant Koster arrived at the Dutch Battalion, DutchBat base
18 in Potocari in January 1995 as a first lieutenant assigned as the
19 battalion's logistics officer. On 11 July 1995 Lieutenant Koster was in
20 command of approximately 30 DutchBat soldiers who were posted outside the
21 UN compound in Potocari to receive an expected arrival of refugees from
22 Srebrenica. The refugees arrived from around 1500 hours onward on foot,
23 in UN trucks and armoured personnel carriers. The refugees were
24 terrified, afraid and looking for help. Lieutenant Koster and his unit
25 directed the refugees initially to take shelter inside a disused bus
1 station near the UN compound. Some refugees were also let into the UN
2 compound itself. Lieutenant Koster estimated that by the end of the day
3 there were approximately 15.000 civilians who arrived and were gathered
4 outside the UN compound, and a further 4 to 5.000 people who were placed
5 inside the compound.
6 On 12 July 1995
7 arrived at lieutenant Koster's position, remaining behind a red and white
8 tape that the DutchBat soldiers had placed as a demarcation line. At
9 around 1600 hours, more VRS troops arrived. Then, General Mladic arrived
10 at Lieutenant Koster's position. General Mladic refused to say what his
11 intentions were and refused to report to the DutchBat commander at the
12 compound. General Mladic stated that he was in charge there, he would do
13 as he pleased, that Lieutenant Koster would see what was going to happen
14 and that it would be best for the DutchBat soldiers to cooperate. The
15 DutchBat soldiers were severely outnumbered. General Mladic addressed
16 the refugees accompanied by a camera team. At this time Lieutenant
17 Koster saw that buses had arrived. He asked General Mladic again what he
18 was going to do with the refugees, to which General Mladic replied that
19 he would evacuate them to another location.
20 Bosnian Serb soldiers then told the refugees to board the buses.
21 The Bosnian Serb soldiers pushed the refugees to go to the buses and get
22 inside them, overfilling the buses with them. Before the buses were
23 loaded men of fighting age were separated and placed inside a nearby
24 house, after their belongings had been removed from them.
25 Lieutenant Koster and his men stayed with the remaining refugees
1 on the evening of 12 July. During the night groups of Bosnian Serb
2 soldiers returned and at gunpoint forced the majority of Lieutenant
3 Koster's unit to surrender their weapon, bulletproof vests and helmets.
4 During the night the DutchBat soldiers continued to help those sick and
5 wounded who needed medical help.
6 On the morning of 13 July 1995
7 hours and the removal of refugees by the Bosnian Serb soldiers resumed,
8 lasting until approximately 1800 hours. By that time all the refugees
9 exempt for some wounded, had been removed. The men who had earlier been
10 separated and placed in the nearby house had also gone.
11 And that concludes the summary, Your Honours.
12 Your Honours, there are some matters of clarification and
13 amplification from Colonel Koster's testimony to which I would like to
14 refer him. They involve playing clips, video clips taken from 65 ter
15 Exhibit 4 -- sorry 04559. There are six such clips, Your Honours, of
16 varying duration.
17 Q. Colonel Koster, in your testimony which has been produced as an
18 exhibit P383, starting at page 2, line 27 you speak of the refugees
19 arriving from Srebrenica. I'd like to just play you the first clip
20 relating to that, please.
21 MR. THOMAS: And, Your Honours, I can advise that this is about a
22 clip of about 4 minutes duration.
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. THOMAS:
25 Q. Colonel, first of all, do you recognise the premises?
1 A. This is inside the compound in one of the factory halls.
2 Q. Inside the UN compound?
3 A. Yes, I do mean inside the UN compound.
4 Q. And who were the people being unloaded from the trucks that we
5 saw in the video footage?
6 A. These were the refugees who had been transported to
7 [as interpreted] Srebrenica by truck.
8 Q. On the 11th of July, where was your position?
9 A. My position was outside the compound at the former bus depot.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were these refugees transported to Srebrenica or
11 from Srebrenica?
12 MR. THOMAS: From Srebrenica.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because the translation -- the interpretation said
14 "to Srebrenica."
15 MR. THOMAS: I'll clarify that, Your Honour, thank you.
16 Q. Colonel, where had these refugees come from?
17 A. The refugees came from Srebrenica.
18 Q. To reach the or get into the UN compound, did they have to go
19 past your position?
20 A. Yes, they had to pass my position, the road led by there from
21 Srebrenica to Potocari and the trucks came from there.
22 Q. And did you see one truck, more than one truck, how many trucks
23 pass you by on the way to the compound that day?
24 A. I saw multiple trucks that day. I can't tell you the exact
25 number, but I estimate about 10 to 20 trucks with a hundred refugees.
1 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Colonel. Your Honours, if the clip that
2 we have just played could please be admitted as a Prosecution exhibit.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: When we say 100 refugees, do you say 100 refugees
4 in total or 100 refugees per truck?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't mention a number of
6 refugees, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. At line 14 to 15, page 51 it says "I saw
8 multiple trucks that day. I can't tell you the exact number but I
9 estimate about 10 to 20 trucks with a hundred refugees." That's what the
10 interpretation said. So that's what I'm trying to clarify. If you
11 didn't give a number, that's fine, we'll ignore that 100 refugees written
13 May 65 ter 04559 be given a number, please. It's admitted into
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P385.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Thomas.
17 MR. THOMAS: Perhaps just one question to clarify that last
18 confusion, Your Honour.
19 Q. Were the trucks that you observed loaded up with refugees to the
20 same extent as the one that we saw in the video?
21 A. Yes, many of those trucks were similarly loaded with a lot of
23 Q. And were they the same or similar type of truck as those we saw
24 in the video footage?
25 A. Yes, they were indeed similar trucks.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. THOMAS: I note the time, Your Honours, it's probably an
3 appropriate place to stop.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Past it actually. We'll take a break and come
5 back at quarter to 6.00. Court adjourned.
6 --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
9 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Q. Colonel, at page 7, starting at line 30 of your Rule 61 testimony
11 you describe the arrival of the Bosnian Serb soldiers to the compound at
12 Potocari and also the arrival of General Mladic on 12th of July. I'd
13 like to show you another video clip.
14 MR. THOMAS: I understand, Your Honours, from the registrar that
15 the counter numbers need to be entered into the record. This is the
16 longest of the clips by a long way, Your Honours, at 10 minutes. It runs
17 from one hour 54 minutes and 45 seconds to 2 hours 4 minutes and 25
19 [Videotape played]
20 MR. THOMAS: Just pausing, Your Honours, at counter number 1 hour
22 Q. Colonel, before we talk further about what remains on the clip
23 can you describe for us in general terms the location of that we have
24 seen on the video footage so far.
25 A. The location we saw on the video is outside the compound near my
1 position near the refugees in the area of the former bus depot.
2 Q. And who are the civilians we've been viewing in the footage?
3 A. You see the Muslim refugees on these video excerpts.
4 Q. Are these the same refugees which came from or who came from
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. From what army were these soldiers who we've just seen handing
8 out chocolates and other items to the child civilians?
9 A. I recognise them at Bosnian Serb soldiers.
10 Q. Also in some of the footage we see soldiers with blue helmets.
11 Are they members of the DutchBat battalion?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And also we have viewed some red and white tape which has --
14 which apparently serves to separate the civilians from military
15 personnel. Is that the demarcation line that was placed by you and your
16 unit prior to the arrival of the Bosnian Serb soldiers?
17 A. Yes, we placed them.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas, shouldn't the witness be testifying
19 rather than you.
20 MR. THOMAS: Yes, Your Honour. Absolutely, but it's --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Unless maybe Mr. Lukic says it's uncontested part
22 of the evidence.
23 MR. THOMAS: He hasn't expressly said so, I must concede that,
24 Your Honour. It's matter referred to in the summary of the evidence
25 already but I appreciate the distinction and Your Honour is quite
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 MR. THOMAS: Colonel, if we could continue with the footage,
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. THOMAS:
7 Q. Colonel, who is the man who we see facing towards the camera?
8 A. I recognise him to be General Mladic.
9 MR. THOMAS: And, Your Honours, that is at 15817.9. If we could
10 play the footage, please.
11 [Videotape played].
12 MR. THOMAS:
13 Q. Colonel, who is the man we see with the blue helmet to the left
14 of the picture?
15 A. That's me.
16 Q. And do you know who the person is in the other blue helmet with
17 the blue vest?
18 A. Yes, I recognise him as one of the UNMOs.
19 Q. Can you explain for us, please, what the function was of a UNMO?
20 A. United Nations military observer, that's the abbreviation, and he
21 is stationed there as an observer on behalf of the United Nations.
22 MR. THOMAS: Could we play the footage, please.
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, just stopping briefly at 20306.7.
25 Q. Colonel, was there any -- let me ask you another question.
1 Do you know who was responsible for having a cameraman present?
2 A. No, I have no idea.
3 Q. Was it anything to do with DutchBat?
4 A. No, we did not have a cameraman there.
5 Q. A few moments ago we saw Bosnian Serb soldiers interacting with
6 the civilians, handing out chocolates and so on. Did you detect any
7 difference in how the Bosnian Serb soldiers treated the civilians between
8 when they were on camera and when they were off camera?
9 A. Yes. I could see differences depending on when the camera was on
10 and the soldiers were being filmed, they were friendly and appeasing to
11 the population most of the time, but as soon as the camera was turned off
12 their attitude changed and they often cursed at the population and
13 displayed hostile behaviour toward the population, so in my view there
14 was a difference.
15 Q. What about General Mladic, what there any difference on how he
16 treated the population on camera and off camera?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe first of all this is a
19 testimony according to 92 ter, what the witness says is something that we
20 already know from the transcript and I on top of that believe that this
21 is completely beyond his testimony and constitutes a completely new
22 circumstance. I would like the -- the Prosecutor to tell us the exact
23 reference which is the basis of this examination.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
25 MR. THOMAS: Your Honour, the -- Colonel Koster has testified
1 more than once about the arrival of General Mladic, about his dealings
2 directly with the military command and military personnel of DutchBat,
3 the instructions that he gave them to effectively not stand in the way of
4 him removing the Serb -- to removing the Muslim civilian population, and
5 the footage which we have seen contradicts or appears to or may be seen
6 to contradict in some way the evidence that Colonel Koster has given
7 about what happened when he was dealing directly with General Mladic.
8 There may be an explanation as to why there are two pictures
9 being painted of General Mladic, the first Colonel Koster's direct
10 dealings with him, and the second as recorded in this media footage. And
11 Colonel Koster is in a position to explain that, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The only problem, Mr. Thomas, is that if
13 Lieutenant Koster did not mention that in his previous testimony, why do
14 you want to introduce that testimony now? Surely we should be able to
15 find it in the testimony that he gave, he is a 92 ter witness, and we can
16 only go by what he's said previously and not go beyond that.
17 MR. THOMAS: If --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And if you are saying the picture here tends to
19 contradict what he said and he was not asked to clarify that previously,
20 why do you want to clarify it today?
21 MR. THOMAS: If Your Honours could give me a moment, I'll search
22 for the appropriate passage.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do. That was actually the objection, or
24 the request from the Defence.
25 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, there is reference to -- at page 39 in
1 the hard copy of the Rule 61 hearing. Beginning at line 24, we have the
2 juxtaposition of the very direct dealings with General Koster, and the
3 rather different, or then the subsequent dealings at least with the
4 civilian population, at line 31.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: What I see, and I'm noticing you, Mr. Lukic, what
6 I see at line 31 is consistent with what we have been seeing on the
7 footage, and that's his attitude towards the people, and what he is
8 saying at line 24, he is saying it's to the -- that people from the
9 United Nations mission, as indeed he did say on the footage that he cares
10 less what they think, he is in control here, and it's consistent with
11 that. You are still not showing us how he behaved towards the civilians
12 off camera from this testimony.
13 MR. THOMAS: Well, except, Your Honour, that the -- I accept that
14 there is nothing that specific. That is why I'm trying to clarify the
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem is that you are now leading new
17 evidence. That's the objection.
18 MR. THOMAS: Well, my answer to the objection, Your Honour, is
19 that it's a question of degree. There is a very clear description,
20 immediately following a terse exchange of General Mladic going with a
21 film crew to talk to the civilian population.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have seen that on the clip. We have seen him
23 saying to the UN people, I don't care less what you think, I'm in control
24 here. And then we see him being kind to the civilians.
25 MR. THOMAS: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, the thing is what you are now asking is
2 neither of those two. You are asking for his behaviour off camera
3 towards the civilians.
4 MR. THOMAS: I appreciate your observations, Your Honour. My
5 position remains that it is essentially a question of degree, but I'm
6 attempting to get him --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is upheld.
8 MR. THOMAS: Understood, Your Honour.
9 Q. Colonel, before we continue playing the tape, who is the
10 gentleman you see in the combat fatigues facing in the centre of the
11 frame, facing towards the camera?
12 A. I recognise this man as Mr. Krsic.
13 Q. His rank?
14 A. I think it's General Krsic.
15 MR. THOMAS: Thank you Colonel. If we could play the remainder
16 of the footage, please.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. THOMAS: And, Your Honour, if that clip could please be
19 admitted as an exhibit.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the 65 ter number of the clip?
21 MR. THOMAS: It's from the same clip as the others, as the other,
22 Your Honour, which was 04559.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: 04559 is already an exhibit, P385, am I right?
24 MR. THOMAS: A clip from that exhibit. A clip from that 65 ter
25 number is already an exhibit, Your Honour. The entire clip itself is
1 something like 2 hours long.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll accept that clip as an exhibit, could
3 it please be given an exhibit number. I don't know how you separate that
4 from the previous one, Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that portion would be Exhibit P386.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
7 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Q. Colonel Koster, at page 10, line 16 of your Rule 61 testimony you
9 described the loading of the buses and also the separation of the men and
10 the Muslim civilian population.
11 MR. THOMAS: I'd like to play you the third of our clips, please,
12 also from the same 65 ter Exhibit 04559, Your Honours, this time running
13 from 2 hours 21 minutes 18 seconds to 2 hours 24 minutes and 4 seconds.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MR. THOMAS:
16 Q. Colonel, we just saw a very brief segment where certain people
17 were told to go to the left. Are you able to explain for us -- and I've
18 stopped the tape at 220.127.116.11. Can you explain to us, please, what is
19 going on?
20 A. I see the separation of the male refugees from the rest of the
21 refugees, and they are being instructed to proceed along the road.
22 That's what I see here.
23 MR. THOMAS: All right. If we could play the remainder of the
24 footage, please.
25 [Videotape played]
1 MR. THOMAS: Just pause there.
2 Q. Now, we see obviously a number of these civilian population, some
3 buses and some soldiers. Can you explain to us what is going on at this
4 point, please, at 2 minutes 23.33?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: .4.
6 MR. THOMAS: .4, Your Honour, thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see the refugees who were walking
8 from my position to the trucks and the buses across the road.
9 MR. THOMAS:
10 Q. And who are the soldiers that we see?
11 A. I recognise them as Bosnian Serb soldiers.
12 MR. THOMAS: Thank you.
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour, if that clip could also be
15 admitted as an exhibit.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's so admitted. May it please be given an
17 exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P387, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Thomas.
20 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Colonel, you spoke of the men being separated from the women and
22 the children. Where were the women and the children going?
23 A. The women and children were directed in the direction of the
24 trucks and the buses.
25 MR. THOMAS: Can we play the next clip, please, Your Honours,
1 which is from counter number 2.26.42 to 2.27.21.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the 65 ter number?
3 MR. THOMAS: Sorry, Your Honours, that's the same 65 ter number,
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. THOMAS:
7 Q. Colonel, we saw the civilians walking towards the buses at the
8 beginning of that clip, and we also saw some DutchBat soldiers around the
9 white tanker at the end of that clip. Can you just explain to us what
10 the white tanker was?
11 A. Yes, the white tank was a water car.
12 Q. And are you able to help us with --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me just say that we have no B/C/S
15 translation of the last four lines on channel number 6. It may be a
16 technical problem.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do we determine that? Could somebody from the
18 B/C/S please say something, let's see if we can hear --
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, now I heard it.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. You may proceed, Mr. Thomas.
21 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Q. Colonel, can you just explain for us the white tanker, what that
24 A. Yes, on the last images you saw, that was a water vehicle. It's
25 a trailer behind a truck, and the tank contains water.
1 Q. And do you know what the DutchBat soldiers were doing with water?
2 A. Yes, we tried to distribute that water to the refugees.
3 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. Could I produce also as an
4 exhibit that clip.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: That clip is admitted as an exhibit. May it
6 please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P388.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Q. Now, what happened to the men, Colonel, who were separated from
11 the other members of the civilian population?
12 A. As far as I could tell, these men were directed to a house and
13 that house was known to us as the white house.
14 Q. Did they have any belongings or anything with them?
15 A. The men that I saw did indeed have possessions on them, clothes
16 or other items, that's correct.
17 Q. I'd like to show you two clips relating to that, please, Colonel.
18 MR. THOMAS: The first, Your Honours, is from 65 ter number 04559
19 running from 2.28.32 to 2.28.54.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. THOMAS:
22 Q. Colonel, again, can you help us with who the gentleman was who
23 was speaking, the gentleman with the glasses?
24 A. The man with the glasses, I recognise him as an UNMO.
25 Q. And are you able to tell us about what overcrowding he was
1 concerned with?
2 A. I believe that the man is concerned about the number of men being
3 gathered in the white house I mentioned earlier.
4 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Colonel. Your Honours, if we could
5 please produce that clip as an exhibit.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's produced an exhibit. May it please be given
7 an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P389.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 MR. THOMAS: And the final clip, please, Your Honours -- the
11 final clip, Your Honours, runs from 2.29.18 to 2.30.51.
12 [Videotape played]
13 MR. THOMAS: Pausing, Your Honours, at 18.104.22.168.
14 Q. Colonel, do you recognise the building that we see in the shot
16 A. Yes, I recognise it. That's the building I indicated as the
17 white house where the men were gathered.
18 Q. Can you comment on the piles of bags and other items that we see
19 in the foreground and throughout that photograph?
20 A. Well, I can't describe each and every one of the objects, but I
21 assume that they were the belongings of the male refugees. I saw them
22 being brought there, and the men were ordered to leave the things that
23 they had with them over there. In any case, those things were taken away
24 from them.
25 MR. THOMAS: Okay. Carry on.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. THOMAS:
3 Q. Colonel, can you tell us who the men are in general terms who we
4 see sitting on the balcony of the white house?
5 A. Yes. I recognise them as the male refugees who were separated by
6 the Bosnian Serb soldiers from the rest of the refugees.
7 MR. THOMAS: Thank you.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. If we could tender that
10 clip as an exhibit, please.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P390.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. Finally, could I have
16 Exhibit 65 ter 07393 on the screen, please.
17 Q. Colonel, do you recognise that as an aerial photograph of
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you see the UN compound? Is that represented anywhere in that
22 A. Yes, indeed. The UN compound appears in the middle and near the
23 bottom of the photograph.
24 Q. What I'd like you to do, Colonel, is I'll ask for you to be
25 provided with an electronic pen, please, and could you draw a circle
1 around the buildings that constitute, or the area that constitutes the UN
2 compound, please.
3 A. [Marks].
4 Q. Thank you. And within that circle, could you please write the
5 letters "UNC"?
6 A. [Marks].
7 Q. You described in your testimony or referred in your testimony to
8 a bus shelter or a bus station, I'm sorry, where the civilians took
9 shelter for some time. Is that depicted anywhere on that photograph?
10 A. Absolutely. It's located near the top of the photograph.
11 Q. Could you circle that, please, for us.
12 A. [Marks].
13 Q. And please just write the "BS" in there.
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. And you have spoken just now of the white house, is that depicted
16 anywhere in that photograph?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Could you circle that for us, please, and mark "WH."
19 A. [Marks].
20 Q. How far would the white house be from the bus shelter, from the
21 bus station?
22 A. At most, a few hundred metres.
23 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Colonel. Your Honours, could this also
24 be tendered as an exhibit.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 07393 is admitted into evidence. May it
1 please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the marked photograph will be
3 Exhibit P391.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 MR. THOMAS: And thank you, Your Honours, that concludes my
6 evidence in chief.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Koster, good afternoon or good evening. My
11 name is Novak Lukic and I'm the counsel who will be asking you some
12 questions on behalf of the Defence team of Mr. Perisic.
13 In relation to the events in Srebrenica, you testified on two
14 previous occasions in the Popovic case in the year 2006, and you also
15 testified in the Krstic case, or rather, when the indictment against
16 Mr. Mladic and Mr. Karadzic was being confirmed in 1996 you also
17 testified. Is that correct?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Before your testimony, you made a solemn declaration and promised
20 to tell the truth, and you also made several written statements and gave
21 interviews with various -- to various officials of the OTP of The Hague
22 and other institutions where you also describe the events that took place
23 in Srebrenica in 1995; is that correct?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. And although you did not have to make a solemn declaration when
1 making written statements as you did before the Court, you always put
2 forward events that were correct and true to the best of your knowledge
3 and recollection; is that correct?
4 A. I described the events as I remembered them.
5 Q. Thank you. You arrived on the territory of the Potocari enclave
6 sometime in January 1995; is that correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Would I be right in concluding that from January until the fall
9 of the enclave, you had relatively frequent contacts with members of the
10 Muslim military forces?
11 A. No, I hardly had any contact at all with them.
12 Q. But you did describe some of these contacts in your testimony.
13 May I ask you whether you remember how many contacts you had with members
14 of the Muslim military forces in total?
15 A. At the end of my period, I did have contact with the Muslim
16 forces and I'd have to take a guess. I estimate there were about five
17 such times.
18 Q. I will define these men as Muslim fighters. You saw that they
19 wore different sort of clothing. Some were in civilian clothes, some had
20 parts of uniforms, others had entire uniforms; is that correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. As for the weapons they carried, you saw them carrying
23 Kalashnikov automatic rifles, mortars and you also saw that they had
24 Motorolas and other radio equipment?
25 A. If that's a question, the answer is yes.
1 Q. The Muslim fighters banned the members of your unit to enter one
2 part of the enclave and patrol there, you were prohibited from going
3 there by the Muslim forces; is that correct?
4 A. That did hold true for a very brief period.
5 Q. That was in January 1995?
6 A. Would you please repeat the question.
7 Q. In January 1995 were the members of your unit prohibited from
8 patrolling a part of the enclave by the members of the Muslim forces?
9 MR. THOMAS: Sorry, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
11 MR. THOMAS: I hesitate to interrupt my learned friend, but this
12 obviously isn't a matter that arises from evidence in chief, nor is it a
13 matter which appears to go to the credibility of the witness.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Complying with your guidelines, Your
16 Honours, I wish to put certain questions which are of a general relevance
17 to the Defence in order to show that the enclave which was designated a
18 protected area by the United Nations was not actually such before the
19 fall of the enclave. These questions are relevant to the Defence case.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which part of the guideline are you complying
21 with, sir?
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the scope of
23 cross-examination referred to in the guidelines, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Paragraph?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. Just a
1 moment. Paragraph 8: [In English] "... when the witness is able to give
2 evidence related to the case for the cross-examinating party."
3 [Interpretation] That's Rule 90(h)(i).
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. The objection is overruled.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.
6 Q. My question was, do you remember that already in January 1995,
7 the members of your unit were prohibited from patrolling all parts of the
8 enclave, you were banned from entering certain parts of the enclave by
9 the members of the Muslim military forces?
10 A. I remember that at the start of my deployment, a certain area --
11 that the Muslim side tried to screen off a certain area and told us that
12 we weren't allowed to enter that area.
13 Q. Was the reason for this an incident in which Major Franken and 8
14 soldiers from your battalion were held hostage, or rather, were they held
15 hostage because they refused to obey that decision by the Muslim forces?
16 A. I know that armed forces from our side were held hostage
17 temporarily. That's the only thing I can remember. I don't remember the
18 names or the number of UN soldiers.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: But do you remember the incident that caused them
20 to be held hostage, sir?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I remember the
22 incident. We resisted --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You resisted?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the incident as described
25 previously. I believe that was the Bandera triangle, it concerned the
1 Bandera triangle, which was in our enclave.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say the incident that was described
3 previously, described by who, when?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, I don't
5 understand your question.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said at page 70 line 12: "It was the incident
7 as described previously." I'm trying to find -- and then you say: "I
8 believe that was the Bandera triangle." I'm asking, incident described
9 previously by whom and when? Are you talking about the description by
10 this lawyer or are you talking about some other description?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the description
12 as Mr. Lukic just presented to me.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court
16 document 1D00-2700. That is Mr. Koster's statement which he made to the
17 investigators of the OTP of The Hague on the 25th and 26th of September
18 1995. It's page 2 in the B/C/S version and also page 2 in English.
19 Q. And let me read the paragraph so that, Mr. Koster, I can jog your
20 memory. I'll read it in English. Yes, thank you. I'm reading the last
21 paragraph. And I will read in the Serbian language. "At the end of
22 January 1995, the Muslim fighters wanted us to --" could we scroll down,
23 please. "To keep out of a certain part of the enclave. Major Franken
24 and 8 soldiers out of the reconnaissance platoon endeavoured to enter
25 this area in order to enforce the condition of freedom of movement. When
1 they did so, they were taken hostage." Would you scroll down a little
2 more, please. "I believe that Zulfo, a subordinate commander in the
3 Muslim forces, was responsible for this hostage taking. I never saw this
4 Zulfo. He was one of Naser Oric's commanders. I later heard that there
5 was a power struggle going on between these two men."
6 This statement, Mr. Koster, was taken from you in 1995, and I
7 assume that your memory then was better and fresher. Does this jog your
8 memory and is what it says here correct?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you answer that question, do you recognise
10 that as your statement, sir? Do you recognise that statement at all?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I recognise this
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's your statement?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then you may answer the question.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise for not verifying this
18 Q. Mr. Koster, do you remember now the reason why this group of men
19 was detained by the Muslim fighters, and do you remember this event
20 taking place in the way you describe it here?
21 A. Yes, thank you, I do remember, yes.
22 Q. Thank you. I will now move on to the events of July.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do so, what do you want to do with the
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't wish to tender it into
1 evidence, Your Honour. I only wanted to quote part of it to the witness
2 and that's sufficient for my purposes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. On the 10th of July 1995, when you were setting out to direct the
6 refugees you expected to be coming from Srebrenica, you saw some Muslim
7 fighters in a house where they had set up a subcommand. Do you remember
9 A. Yes, I remember that.
10 Q. You also heard that there was fighting between the Muslim
11 fighters and the Serbian fighters on the 12th and on the 13th of July; is
12 that correct?
13 A. In that period I did indeed hear an exchange of fire from the
14 surrounding hills.
15 Q. Do you remember that from the middle of June in the village of
16 Potocari, there were many armed Muslims, and they could no longer be kept
17 under control, you could no longer tell them to lay down their weapons
18 because more and more of these armed men were gathering in the village
20 A. I'd like to know, are you talking about Potocari?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Yes, we did indeed see increasing numbers of armed men walking
23 around. And in the end there were so many of them that we could no
24 longer take their weapons away from them.
25 Q. And you are referring to Muslim fighters now; is that correct?
1 A. I'm referring to the male Muslim population.
2 Q. Yes, very well. Your battalion numbered about 200 members at
3 that time; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, it must have been about approximately 200 members.
5 Q. You also heard that there was shelling in the night between the
6 11th and 12th of July, but no shells landed in those areas where the
7 refugees had already arrived?
8 A. Yes, if you are referring to where the refugees were gathered,
9 the shells fell in between the houses. I couldn't tell whether or not
10 there were any refugees there.
11 Q. But in the area where the refugees were gathered together, no
12 shells landed; is that correct? Where the first wave of refugees
13 gathered, none of them were hit by a shell; is that right?
14 A. From what I could see, the refugees that were near me were not
15 hit by the shells.
16 Q. Do you remember having heard on the following day that any
17 civilians had been killed or wounded by that shelling?
18 A. No, I can't remember that.
19 Q. You did not expect such large numbers of refugees to arrive in
20 Potocari on the 11th and the 12th of July, did you? You were surprised
21 by the situation and the number of refugees who arrived?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. At that point in time, you didn't know that some sort of
24 evacuation would be organised, did you? When those people arrived, you
25 did not know they would be evacuated, did you?
1 A. Evacuated by whom?
2 Q. Well, that's what I was getting at. When those civilians arrived
3 from Srebrenica to Potocari, was there any talk of any kind of evacuation
4 of those people at the time when they arrived?
5 A. Thank you. No, and first all we spoke about was accommodating
6 the refugees and we would see about evacuation later on.
7 Q. We saw that you met General Mladic and you testified about that
8 meeting. He informed you personally that he wished to evacuate those
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You did not want those refugees to be taken away to be evacuated
12 until he told you exactly where they would be evacuated to and that they
13 would be safe?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. You had no reason to doubt what he told you, that they would be
16 taken somewhere and that they would be safe?
17 A. I was not certain of that.
18 Q. In the course of your meeting with him, did you have any reason
19 to suspect he would not be taking those refugees to a safe territory?
20 A. We were there to protect the Muslim population against the
21 Bosnian Serb soldiers, and that was cause for me to doubt the certainty
22 that he would indeed relocate them in a proper manner.
23 Q. When he informed you that he would carry out the evacuation of
24 those civilians to a safe area and that nothing would happen to them, did
25 you inform your superiors of what he had told you?
1 A. Yes, I reported that.
2 Q. Did you inform them of your doubts as to what he said, that is
3 that he would safely take them to Kladanj?
4 A. At that point, I didn't know that he would take them to Kladanj.
5 I merely reported that the refugees were going to be evacuated.
6 Q. But did you report your doubts and your suspicions that he would
7 not do this in a safe and proper way?
8 A. All I remember is that I expressed concern about this evacuation.
9 Q. Who did you inform of this?
10 A. I informed the operations room.
11 Q. Did you receive any instructions from the operations room as to
12 how you should proceed, what course you should follow next?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what were you told to do?
15 A. I was instructed to indicate to General Mladic that he should
16 contact Karremans, my commander, and that until that time I should not
17 cooperate with the evacuation of the refugees until there was more
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we break off now, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed we can. It's about time.
21 Sir, we are not finished with your testimony. Can you please
22 come back tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, and let me just
23 say to you that now that you are in the witness box, I'm sure you know
24 this, you are not supposed to discuss the case with anybody until you
25 have finished testifying.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
3 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, I'm sorry. My learned friend and I
4 were proceeding on the basis that we would be able to conclude Colonel
5 Koster's evidence today. There is a difficulty with Dutch interpretation
6 being available tomorrow. It is available on Thursday but I've also
7 spoken to Colonel Koster. He would be prepared to -- he has a pretty
8 good command of English and he would be prepared to continue in English
9 but I just simply flag that if any problems arise in that respect
10 tomorrow, Your Honour, that we don't have Dutch interpretation available,
11 I understand.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but if he prefers to testify in Dutch, then
13 he must testify in Dutch.
14 MR. THOMAS: That would be my preference certainly and his, Your
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: In that case, then are you suggesting we postpone
17 to Thursday?
18 MR. THOMAS: Yes, Your Honour.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then we'll adjourn to Thursday. Is it possible to
21 sit in the morning rather than in the afternoon. Judge David would be
22 available on that day, Lukic and Lukic is not sitting.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we sit on Thursday morning? Is it possible?
25 MR. THOMAS: It's certainly causes the Prosecution no
1 difficulties, sir, but it's not something I've specifically asked Colonel
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the other people, the interpreters and
4 everybody and the Defence. How does it suit you, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no problem with that. I just
6 wanted to inform Your Honours that I will take half an hour or 40 minutes
7 at the most for my -- for the continuation of my cross.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Would it be convenient for
9 you to come in the morning on Thursday, sir?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll be here Thursday morning, Your
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess also for our interpreters at the back.
13 Thank you very much. I see smiles, which I interpret to mean yes.
14 Thanks. Okay, we will then stand adjourned to Thursday morning at 9.00
15 in the morning.
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm told we'll have to go to Courtroom I. I'm
19 sure someone will show you where Courtroom I is. It's at 9.00 in the
20 morning on Thursday. Thank you so much. Court adjourned.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.
22 be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of December,
23 2008, at 9.00 a.m.