Page 2421
1 Wednesday, 10 December 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 courtroom. Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May we have the appearances
12 for the day, Mr. Prosecution.
13 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
14 Honours. Daniel Saxon for the Prosecution, together with Carmela Javier.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
16 For the Defence.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
18 morning to everybody in the courtroom. Mr. Perisic is represented by
19 Mr. Guy-Smith Smith, Novak Lukic, our assistant Daniela Tasic, and our
20 legal assistants Tina Drolec and Milos Androvic.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Good morning, Mr. Witness.
22 Once again, we can't call you by name, as you know. I'm sorry to call
23 you Mr. Witness, but that's how it goes. Just to remind you that you are
24 still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your
25 testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the
Page 2422
1 truth. Thank you very much.
2 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
3 WITNESS: WITNESS MP-005 [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examination by Mr. Saxon: [Continued]
6 Q. Good morning, Mr. MP-OO5. Mr. MP-OO5, while you were serving
7 with the Army of Republika Srpska, could the Army of Yugoslavia have
8 redeployed you to another position within the Army of Yugoslavia?
9 A. Your Honours, first of all, good morning to everybody. When we
10 are talking about the personnel of the 30th Personnel Centre, including
11 myself, the law says it was with the Army of Yugoslavia because we were
12 paid which the Army of Yugoslavia.
13 Q. Do I take your response to my question as a yes, witness?
14 A. Your Honours, yes.
15 MR. SAXON: For some reason, I'm not getting the English
16 interpretation in my headphones, but I'm able to follow the transcript at
17 this time.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: There must be something wrong with yours because
19 we are ...
20 MR. SAXON: We'll try it again.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Are you receiving interpretation?
22 MR. SAXON: Yes, yes, I am.
23 Q. And, Witness, if you had received such an order from the Army of
24 Yugoslavia
25 would you have followed it?
Page 2423
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness is
3 requested to speculate. He should have been asked whether he ever
4 received an order of that kind, rather than what he would have done had
5 he received an order of that kind.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: I can rephrase it, Your Honour.
8 Q. Did you ever receive such an order from the Army of Yugoslavia to
9 redeploy to another position while you were serving the Army of Republika
10 Srpska?
11 A. Your Honours, during that period, I did not receive an order.
12 Q. During that period, did you consider yourself bound by the laws
13 and rules of the Army of Yugoslavia?
14 A. Your Honours, the laws of Yugoslavia
15 we belong to the 30th Personnel Centre. I can illustrate that with an
16 example. If a person who belonged to the 30th Personnel Centre committed
17 a breach of discipline and was fined, then this would have incurred a
18 loss of one part of their salary, and that should have been implement on
19 the side of the Army of Yugoslavia.
20 Q. Witness, were officers or soldiers assigned to the 30th Personnel
21 Centre able to find housing in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the Republika
22 Srpska?
23 A. Your Honours, could you please repeat your question.
24 Q. My question pertains to housing, finding a place to stay; and my
25 question is: Were officers who were assigned to the 30th Personnel
Page 2424
1 Centre but serving in the Army of Republika Srpska, were they able --
2 persons like yourself, were they able to find housing in the Republika
3 Srpska?
4 A. Your Honours, I would rather say that the personnel of the
5 30th Personnel Centre had accommodation in Republika Srpska. If they
6 didn't have, they were compensated and this was regulated through the
7 30th Personnel Centre again.
8 Q. Just so that the record is clear, you say if they didn't have
9 accommodation in Republika Srpska, they were compensated. Are you
10 speaking in financial terms?
11 A. Yes, Your Honours.
12 Q. You testified yesterday that the 30th Personnel Centre was in
13 Belgrade
14 A. Your Honours, I was never there. I never went there.
15 Q. Witness MP-OO5, have you heard about something called the
16 40th Personnel Centre?
17 A. Your Honours, the 30th Personnel Centre was in charge of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the 40th Personnel Centre was in charge of
19 Croatia
20 Q. What army did the 40th Personnel Centre belong to?
21 A. Your Honours, the 40th Personnel Centre is military post 4001,
22 Belgrade
23 Q. Do you know when the 40th Personnel Centre was operational?
24 A. Your Honours, I don't know when it was established, but I believe
25 that it was abolished at the moment when the Serbs were forced to
Page 2425
1 withdraw from Croatia
2 Q. When you use the term the "Serbs" in this context, "the Serbs
3 were forced to withdraw from Croatia
4 are you referring to a particular army what?
5 A. Your Honours, I'm referring to the overall events: The army, the
6 people, everybody withdraw. That's the context that I had in mind. It
7 was not that only the military withdraw and that the people stayed
8 behind; that was not the case.
9 Q. And just so the record is clear, which army withdrew from
10 Croatia
11 A. The Serbian army of Krajina.
12 Q. Where was the 40th Personnel Centre? Where was it located?
13 A. Your Honours, as far as I know, based on some document, it was in
14 Belgrade
15 the 40th Personnel Centres. I was never physically in any of them.
16 Q. Do you know if the personnel assigned to the 40th Personnel
17 Centre were serving in Belgrade
18 A. Your Honours, I can only assume that that was the case.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the basis for that assumption?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I did
21 not understand the last question. I would kindly ask the gentleman to
22 repeat it.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you please repeat your question, Mr. Saxon.
24 MR. SAXON:
25 Q. My question was: Were the officers who were assigned to the
Page 2426
1 40th Personnel Centre of the Army of Yugoslavia actually serving in
2 Belgrade
3 A. Your Honours, I apologise, I made a mistake. They were in
4 Croatia
5 records and looking after the men who were in Croatia. So somebody was
6 in Belgrade
7 Q. And these officers who were in Croatia, what army were they
8 serving with during the war?
9 A. Your Honours, in the Serbian Army of Krajina.
10 MR. SAXON: One moment, please.
11 Your Honours, at this time, that concludes my direct examination.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon. Mr. Lukic.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
14 Q. Good morning, sir. I'm Novak Lukic, and I will be asking you
15 questions on behalf of the accused Perisic. Before I start, I would like
16 to draw your attention to the fact that I have to switch off my mic after
17 my questions so as to block your voice; and also since we speak the same
18 language, I would kindly ask you to make a break after my question.
19 A. I understand.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move into private
21 session immediately.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
23 [Private session]
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2427
1.
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 2427-2433 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2434
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
10 Q. Sir, you gave evidence yesterday about a period when the JNA was
11 leaving Bosnia-Herzegovina, leaving large amounts of equipment behind in
12 its territory. You even went on to say that the equipment remained in
13 the hands of the Army Republika Srpska. You do remember saying that to
14 the Prosecutor yesterday, don't you?
15 A. Your Honours, indeed, I remember saying that, but I wouldn't
16 quite say large amounts. There were things that were taken back to
17 Yugoslavia
18 say that the majority of the equipment remained or, indeed, left. But
19 there is one thing that I have to say. This wasn't a total withdraw of
20 the JNA together with all of its equipment. They were leftovers, so to
21 speak.
22 Q. I'll try to make my question more specific now, just to clear
23 this up to the extent that we can.
24 The war in Bosnia
25 yesterday at page 8; right? Do you remember that?
Page 2435
1 A. Your Honours, the war began sometime in April. I don't know when
2 exactly what date marks the beginning of the war. It may have broken out
3 earlier on, or at least that's what some people seem to believe.
4 Q. You do believe that it broke out in April, that's your opinion?
5 You stated that yesterday, did you not?
6 A. If you look at most of the media, they all seem to be talking
7 about April 1992 in relation to Bosnia-Herzegovina.
8 Q. Do you know when the -- when Republika Srpska was set up?
9 A. Do you want me to give you dates, or --
10 Q. No, just a very general idea. You can tell us the season or the
11 year, if you remember?
12 A. Your Honours, as far as I remember, Republika Srpska was
13 officially established sometime in May 1992. At first, it was called the
14 Serbian Republic
15 Q. No, no, no. I don't mean to interrupt you, but all I need is a
16 brief answer. You've said enough, more than enough.
17 Do you know in the roughest of terms when the Army of Republika
18 Srpska was first established.
19 A. Your Honours, I think in May, but I'm not entirely certain.
20 April, May. Again, officially, probably sometime like April or May.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which year?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992, Your Honour.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I assume you remember that there was a referendum early in
25 continue. Citizens were given a chance to say whether they wished to
Page 2436
1 remain in Yugoslavia
2 an independent state. This was something that was organised by the
3 leaders of Republika Srpska. You do remember that particular referendum,
4 don't you?
5 A. Yes, I do. This was a landmark event concerning that particular
6 period of time in that particular area.
7 Q. I'm not about to ask you what your vote was, but I assume you
8 were always in favour of staying within Yugoslavia; right?
9 A. Your Honours, may I explain this? This would require a bit of a
10 lengthy explanation.
11 Q. Not that lengthy, please.
12 A. Your Honours, as far as the vote, the overall vote was concerned
13 in Croatia
14 academy, or in Bosnia-Herzegovina, I never took part in any voting
15 procedure whatsoever. I'll be happy to share this with Mr. Lukic in no
16 uncertain terms: All of the officers were fighting for the Socialist
17 Federative Republic of Yugoslavia
18 that been the case, there would be nothing for us here to discuss today.
19 Unfortunately, that was not the case.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the Supreme Commander of the Army of
21 Republika Srpska was Radovan Karadzic?
22 A. Your Honours, yes. I know that Radovan Karadzic was President
23 and the supreme commander.
24 Q. And Ratko Mladic was the commander of the Main Staff of the Army
25 Republika Srpska; wouldn't that be correct?
Page 2437
1 A. Yes, Your Honours, that is correct.
2 Q. A lot of the equipment that I asked you about was transferred
3 from Croatia
4 army left the eastern countries?
5 A. Your Honours, when the JNA was withdrawing from Slovenia and
6 Croatia
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move into private session,
9 please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
11 [Private session]
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2438
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 2438-2454 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2455
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
Page 2456
1 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. I'm going to have some questions about the 30th Personnel Centre,
4 and I'm going to be talking about things that you testified about in open
5 session.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The page number is 24630 -- 24603.
7 Just a moment.
8 Q. You said at the time, sir: [In English] "The personnel centre of
9 the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia was a department in the
10 personnel administration of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.
11 It was established at the point in the time when the war in Bosnia
12 or at least I didn't know about it up until then. But when the war
13 began, I received papers where it said, as I hearing, 'the 30th Personnel
14 Centre.'"
15 MR. LUKIC: It's page 24603, line 16 testimony.
16 Q. [Interpretation] You testified under oath, did you not?
17 A. Your Honours, could you please repeat the question, just the
18 question.
19 Q. The question is: Do you remember that you made a solemn
20 declaration at the beginning of that case, just like you did yesterday
21 when you entered into courtroom?
22 A. Yes, Your Honours, I did make a solemn declaration, of course.
23 Q. And you claimed at the time that the 30th Personnel Centre
24 existed when the war in Bosnia
25 A. Your Honours, I'm still claiming that from the beginning of the
Page 2457
1 war until the end of the war, we received salaries and all the other
2 money, benefits, and that was the task of the 30th Personnel Centre.
3 When it was established exactly, I don't know. I did not go to Belgrade
4 to check. If you were to ask me again when exactly it was established, I
5 will say that I don't know. I'm just saying what I was receiving, what I
6 heard, and what I saw in the documents.
7 Q. Witness, you said that already, didn't you? Now I'm asking you
8 this: When you testified in that trial, did you present your
9 assumptions, or were you certain that the 30th Personnel Centre existed
10 at the time the war in Bosnia
11 you.
12 A. Your Honours, I'm not claiming that the 30th Personnel Centre
13 existed already in April 1992. What I am claiming is that payments were
14 being made throughout to the persons who made up the 30th Personnel
15 Centre.
16 Nevertheless, may I just finish?
17 Q. Yes, please, go ahead.
18 A. To be perfectly honest about the payments, there was a six-month
19 period throughout which no payments were made. The cycle was
20 interrupted.
21 Q. We'll be getting to that. I'm trying to keep my questions under
22 control because we are in public session. Please stick to my questions.
23 When you gave evidence that time under oath, you said that the
24 30th Personnel Centre existed at the time the war broke out in Bosnia
25 That is what you said. Now, were you mistaken at the time, or do you
Page 2458
1 stand by your previous statement?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think don't put part of his quotation to him;
3 put the full quotation. If I may quote what you quoted as him having
4 said is: "It was established at the point in time when the war in Bosnia
5 began, or at least I didn't know about it up until then. But when the
6 war began, I received papers where it said, as I'm hearing, 'the 30th
7 Personnel Centre.'" This is what you quoted.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: So do include also the part that says, "or at
10 least I didn't know about it up until then"?
11 MR. LUKIC: Right, Your Honour.
12 Q. [Interpretation] When the war in Bosnia began, then you said
13 that --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please be asked to wait until the
15 translation into B/C/S is completed before putting his question.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... were being transmitted to
18 you via the 30th Personnel Centre, yes or no?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreters are asking for something.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, I'll repeat.
21 Q. At the time the war in Bosnia
22 occurred in April 1992, did you find out that your salaries and other
23 entitlements were being sent to you by the 30th Personnel Centre?
24 A. Your Honours, in April, our salaries still arrived on a regular
25 basis, but I never said anything about when it came into existence or who
Page 2459
1 it was established by. Was it perhaps established at a later date, I
2 don't know. But all the payments and the salaries were being paid on a
3 regular basis.
4 Q. No one is challenging that. What I'm telling you now is what you
5 said in the Milosevic trial. You are receiving your salaries and
6 entitlements throughout. Was it from April 1992 or as of April 1992
7 through the 30th Personnel Centre?
8 A. Your Honours, April 1992 is the very beginning of the war.
9 Confusion reigned. Again, the 30th Personnel Centre, I don't know
10 whether it existed back in April 1992, or whether it was in 1993 or 1994
11 that it came into existence. But the last thing I said was that the
12 30th Personnel Centre was performing that task. I will never claim,
13 because I don't know. I don't know when. I wasn't there.
14 Q. Witness, let us not dwell on this for too long. There is one
15 thing that is really important to me. Maybe my question was not specific
16 enough.
17 While you were being proofed by the OTP, at least that was my
18 understanding, you said you didn't know when the 30th Personnel Centre
19 was established. Okay. Now, I'm confronting you with a portion of your
20 testimony where you said in no uncertain terms that you heard of the
21 existence of the personnel centre.
22 So my question is this: Is it possible -- you were under oath
23 then, you are under oath today. Is it possible that you are telling us
24 about some things that you are not entirely certain about? Yes or no.
25 Please, that's all I'm asking you to tell me.
Page 2460
1 A. Your Honours, I'm not telling you anything that is not precise,
2 that is not true. I'm not trying to create confusion.
3 Q. Thank you very much. Let's move on.
4 Did you ever hear of a personnel section or administration that
5 was with the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
6 A. Your Honours, the Main Staff of the Army Republika Srpska did
7 have a personnel section. Of course, they were dealing with personnel
8 related issues in their entirety.
9 Q. Thank you. What about your units, was there a service or perhaps
10 a person who was in charge of personnel related issues?
11 A. Your Honours, any unit of whichever branch must have an officer
12 in charge of that. An officer, perhaps an NCO, I can't really say.
13 There is something else that I'm trying to say about these officers. The
14 30th Personnel Centre had nothing to do with some reservists in the Army
15 of Republika Srpska. When one mentions the Main Staff of the Army
16 Republika Srpska, needless to say, there are other people there who are
17 involved in addition to those from the 30th Personnel Centre.
18 Q. My question was brief in order to ask my next question, because I
19 think that will help us keep this short. What about all of your
20 correspondence, to be quite specific, requests, documents, decisions, of
21 the 30th Personnel Centre that you were forwarding or receiving, did you
22 always send this through your personnel officer in your unit of the Army
23 of Republika Srpska?
24 A. Your Honours, yes. The personnel officer would go to Belgrade
25 the 30th Personnel Centre to deal with issues, to put a stamp in the
Page 2461
1 medical record, and so on and so forth. If I have to state this again
2 clearly for the record, I would only be too happy to do just that.
3 Q. Thank you. You never received through the 30th Personnel Centre
4 any orders regarding your professional tasks with the Army of Republika
5 Srpska, did you?
6 A. Your Honours, the 30th Personnel Centre, if you look at the name
7 itself, the 30th Personnel Centre, they deal with status related issues,
8 and not with combat missions, as Mr. Lukic suggests. Was there a
9 different channel that was used for this? I really don't know. But what
10 I've been saying throughout is this: The 30th Personnel Centre from the
11 beginning of the war, or from whenever it was established, was keeping
12 track of personnel related issues.
13 Q. Just a second. Please restrict yourself to answering my
14 question. It will be easier for all of us.
15 My question was: At any time throughout your service with the
16 Army of Republika Srpska, did you receive any order regarding your
17 professional activity, an order that came from the 30th Personnel Centre?
18 That's the question. Yes or no, please.
19 A. No combat orders went through the 30th Personnel Centre.
20 Q. Do you know whether any officer of the Army of Republika Srpska
21 was transferred within the Army of Republika Srpska pursuant to a
22 decision that was made by the 30th Personnel Centre?
23 A. Your Honours, as far as I know, within the Army of Republika
24 Srpska, this was the sort of matter that was decided upon by the Main
25 Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
Page 2462
1 Q. You told us this morning that you received no status order from
2 the 30th Personnel Centre, but my understanding was you were saying that
3 you had heard something to the effect that there were officers belonging
4 to the 30th Personnel Centre who were ordered to go back to the Army of
5 Yugoslavia
6 Is my understanding correct since I don't have the transcript in
7 front of me?
8 A. Your Honours, during the war, there were transfers between the
9 Army of Yugoslavia
10 both directions.
11 Q. Do you know whether any officer belonging to the 30th Personnel
12 Centre serving with the Army of Republika Srpska was ever ordered by the
13 Army of Yugoslavia
14 specific as can be. Yes or no, please.
15 A. Your Honours, I don't know. I never had a chance to find out.
16 Q. I assume you know that a large number of officers of the Army of
17 Republika Srpska who were members of the 30th Personnel Centre had
18 families who were in the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
19 do you agree with me?
20 A. Your Honours, that's true. There were many members of the
21 30th Personnel Centre serving in Republika Srpska who had families who
22 were staying in Serbia
23 of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. Then you probably also know that those people's families who were
25 living in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were often authorised to
Page 2463
1 withdraw their salaries and to do as they pleased with their salaries in
2 the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; right?
3 A. Yes, Your Honours, that's right. Say someone was in
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, they were unable to withdraw their salaries for
5 whatever it was that they were working at the time, and then they had
6 every right to authorize, for example, their wife living in Belgrade
7 withdraw their salaries for them.
8 Q. Then you must know that the families of those persons, unless
9 they were spouses, for example, their children, had health insurance --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Can counsel please repeat
11 the question. We didn't understand what he was trying to say. Thank
12 you.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll repeat my question.
14 Q. You know as well, don't you, that the families of those persons,
15 unless they were themselves beneficiaries of some sort of health
16 insurance, got the right to use this health insurance from their spouses
17 who were members of the 30th Personnel Centre; right?
18 A. Yes, Your Honours, that's right. Family members were insured
19 through whoever was a member of the 30th Personnel Centre. I did say
20 that, didn't I? Every year there had to be a stamp that was put in a
21 particular booklet, a medical record, for that purpose.
22 Q. Otherwise, their families would have had to pay their way in
23 order to obtain some form of health insurance had it not been for those
24 people already having health insurance by virtue of them being members of
25 the 30th Personnel Centre; right?
Page 2464
1 A. Yes, Your Honours, that's right. If someone has no health
2 insurance, they have to pay for it out of their own pocket.
3 Q. You told Mr. Saxon yesterday that every time anyone's salary was
4 increased, although this was a time of hyperinflation --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Can counsel please be asked to repeat the last
6 part of his question. Interpreters didn't understand it. Thank you.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You hear that, counsel. The interpreters didn't
8 hear the last parts of your question.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe I'm too quick switching off my
10 mic. I apologise to the interpreters.
11 Q. When you spoke to Mr. Saxon yesterday, you were looking at this
12 document about this -- about this increase in salaries that aggravated
13 conditions. There was a session, and that was recorded. You said that
14 every time salary was increased, although there was hyperinflation, and
15 this meant something to you. Do you remember saying that?
16 A. Yes, Your Honours, that's right. An increase in our salaries
17 meant improvement every time, but then again I said this was a time of
18 galloping inflation. So whatever improvement came through this did not
19 imply a major change. But every time one's salary increases, of course
20 it's a good thing. It can't possibly be a bad thing, can it?
21 Q. You mentioned awhile ago that throughout a six-month period, you
22 were receiving no salary at all through the 30th Personnel Centre, at a
23 time when Federal Republic of Yugoslavia introduced the sanctions --
24 imposed sanctions on Republika Srpska; right?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
Page 2465
1 MR. SAXON: I could be wrong and I'm sorry to interrupt. I don't
2 recall that the witness gave a reason for why the -- for why salaries
3 were interrupted for a six-month period. But if I'm wrong, I'm willing
4 to be corrected.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, I apologise. The witness merely
6 said that he was not receiving a salary for those six months. I added
7 this because I thought it wasn't something that was likely to be
8 challenged, so I do apologise. Here we go.
9 Q. Witness, you said for about six months, at one point in time, you
10 were receiving no salary at all through the 30th Personnel Centre; is
11 that right?
12 A. Yes, Your Honours, that's right. We are looking at a six-month
13 period throughout which we were receiving no salary at all from anyone.
14 There were no payments being made. But as I said, at a later date, all
15 the payments due were eventually made.
16 Q. Do you perhaps know what the reason was for this interruption?
17 A. Your Honours, I really don't know the reason. What I'm telling
18 you is fact. There may have been a reason that occurred somewhere close
19 to the top of the pyramid, but I can hardly be expected to shed any light
20 on that sort of matter.
21 Q. Do you remember hearing that after Republika Srpska had refused
22 to sign the Vance-Owen plan, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as a
23 result imposed sanctions on Republika Srpska and withdrew all of the
24 payments that it was making to Republika Srpska?
25 A. Your Honours, yes. I know that the Federal Republic
Page 2466
1 Yugoslavia
2 privy to any detail about that. Again, I'm talking about the facts that
3 I am aware of. I'm not here to discuss political decisions.
4 Q. Despite which, you remain with the Army Republika Srpska
5 throughout this period, during which you were receiving no salaries at
6 all; right?
7 A. Your Honours, I stayed put. There was a war on. It's not like
8 one had a choice, like one could pick where to go, nor did anyone suggest
9 that I should be headed elsewhere, nor was I ever ordered to go anywhere
10 else, or anything like that.
11 Q. Just to add to your last answer: Even after the war, you still
12 remained there, didn't you?
13 A. Yes, that's right, Your Honours.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go back into private
15 session. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
17 [Private session]
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2467
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 2467-2473 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2474
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Witness, now you have mentioned the word the confirmation of
10 rank, or you called it a verification of a rank. What does this mean to
11 you? What does it mean when you say that a rank was verified?
12 A. Your Honours, as far as I know, if a rank is verified, that means
13 that it is recognised. It had to be recognised, verified by somebody.
14 Q. Am I right in saying that this means that a rank that a member of
15 the 30th Personnel Centre receives in the Army Republika Srpska has to be
16 verified by the 30th Personnel Centre, to entitle the person to all the
17 benefits that go with the rank; would that be correct?
18 A. Your Honours, would you please be more specific in your question.
19 Q. Every officer is entitled to a certain salary with a certain
20 rank; the higher the rank, the more money that person receives every
21 month. Is that correct?
22 A. Your Honours, yes, that's correct. The higher the rank, the more
23 money you receive every month.
24 Q. And if an officer of the 30th Personnel Centre is promoted to a
25 higher rank by the Army of Republika Srpska, in order to receive more
Page 2475
1 money, that rank has to be verified or confirmed through the
2 30th Personnel Centre in the Army of Yugoslavia; is that correct?
3 A. Your Honours, yes, that's correct, because the money arrived from
4 Belgrade
5 this could be looked at.
6 Q. To verify a rank, means to recognise a rank that was received in
7 the Army Republika Srpska and the status entitlement in the Army of
8 Yugoslavia
9 A. [No interpretation]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm getting no interpretation.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, that's correct.
12 If somebody, for example, receives a rank ...
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that sentence complete?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the sentence is not complete.
15 Your Honours, I did not complete it.
16 For example, if somebody had a rank of captain and then became
17 major, he was promoted in the Army Republika Srpska. He would still
18 receive a captain's salary until the moment the new rank is recognised by
19 the Army of Yugoslavia
20 that person may have been promoted, but without any financial effects
21 that go with that promotion.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. And that's verification at the moment when the rank is verified
24 by the 30th Personnel Centre, from that moment on, the person is entitled
25 to a higher salary as if he were an officer of the Army of Yugoslavia?
Page 2476
1 A. Yes, Your Honours, that's exactly the case. Until the moment the
2 rank is verified by the body that's paying you, you may be promoted in
3 any way; but before it was recognised, you did not get any money.
4 Q. But in the command chain, the promotion was recognised at a
5 moment when it became effected in the Army of Republika Srpska; wouldn't
6 that be correct?
7 A. Your Honours, that should have been the case. However, how many
8 people were promoted by the Army Republika Srpska I can't tell you at
9 this moment. I can't tell you anything specific at this moment.
10 Q. I'm asking you. At the moment when you were promoted into
11 captain 1st class in the Army Republika Srpska, from that moment on, you
12 bore the insignia of that rank, and you had that rank within the
13 framework of the army that promoted you; is that correct?
14 A. Your Honours, I was personally never promoted by the Army
15 Republika Srpska. From the moment when you received your order, from
16 that moment, you were promoted; and from that moment, you bore the
17 insignia that went with the rank.
18 Q. I asked you just awhile ago, and you told me that you were first
19 promoted by the Army Republika Srpska, and then your promotion was
20 verified by the Army of Yugoslavia. Do you remember that you answered
21 that question positively?
22 A. Your Honours, as far as I can remember, there was a dual
23 promotion. One was from the Army Republika Srpska, but I can't give you
24 the exact period when that was happening. There were dual orders: One
25 from the Army Republika Srpska, the other from the 30th Personnel Centre
Page 2477
1 of the Army of Yugoslavia
2 Q. Very well. Can we now move on to something else.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the Court please produce P399. I
4 believe this document was already shown in public session.
5 Q. We saw this decision yesterday, and you answered my learned
6 friend's question with regard to this decision. This was signed by Ratko
7 Mladic, this decision was made by the Main Staff of the Army Republika
8 Srpska, and this is a decision on the compensation for military service
9 in difficult special conditions.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move on to page 2
11 paragraph under number 4, please.
12 Q. You provided some answers to Mr. Saxon yesterday. I'm going to
13 read slowly.
14 "Pursuant to Article 71 of the rules on travel and other expenses
15 in the VJ, the commander of the Main Staff of the Army Republika Srpska,
16 the commander of the air force and anti-aircraft defence, commanders of
17 the corps of the PVO," which I don't know what it stands for, "and
18 independent units and institutions will adopt decisions ex officio
19 through their personnel administrations, on compensation for all persons
20 who meet the conditions in this decision. The deadline for adopting the
21 decision and submitting it to the accounting centre of the Ministry of
22 Defence of the Army of Yugoslavia is 28 February 1994."
23 My question: It arises from Article 4, that this decision ex
24 officio is bypassed by the personnel organs of the Army Republika Srpska;
25 is that correct?
Page 2478
1 A. Decisions within these specified units are adopted by bodies of
2 the Army of Republika Srpska.
3 Q. Paragraph 7 reads: "Personnel organs in the command will adopt
4 decisions ex officio to abolish the right to compensation for all persons
5 leaving the Army of Republika Srpska and submit such decisions to the
6 accounting centre of the Ministry of the Defence of VJ within 15 days of
7 leaving the army."
8 Do you agree with me that these decisions on abolishing the right
9 to compensation is something that is within the remit of personnel organs
10 in the Army of Republika Srpska?
11 A. Your Honours, personnel organs of the Army Republika Srpska know
12 right there and then who it was that left. Someone over in Belgrade
13 not simply keep paying their salaries throughout, because they don't
14 know. It is the personnel organs of the Army Republika Srpska who will
15 know that someone left, which means that this someone is no longer
16 entitled to any form of compensation. They must then submit to the
17 accounting centre of the Ministry of the Defence of VJ the appropriate
18 documents within 15 days, as stated.
19 Q. Your answer is somewhat broad, but my question was this: It is
20 the personnel organs of the Army Republika Srpska that actually adopt
21 this decision on the right to compensation; right?
22 A. Yes, Your Honours, that's right, because they are in the area and
23 they know what is going on.
24 Q. All right. About this document, at the bottom of the page, it
25 says "Forward copies to."
Page 2479
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we can please zoom in.
2 Q. You can read all these abbreviations here. My question here
3 about this order is this, because all these are abbreviations: Do you
4 see any mention there of anybody whatsoever of the VJ from the Federal
5 Republic of Yugoslavia
6 and the addressees?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it so that the English part was not translated,
8 or is it on the next page? It says "copies to" but nothing is written
9 there.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this matters to me. I
11 could read it out, but yes, we do see the abbreviations on the next
12 English page.
13 Q. I assume you understand these abbreviations, Witness? My
14 question is merely this: If you look at this list of abbreviation, do
15 you see that this order was submitted to anyone at all in the VJ or in
16 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
17 A. Your Honours, as far as I can tell, by looking at the section of
18 the document that pertains to delivery or distribution, there is not a
19 single body named that is within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. That's it for
21 this document, and now we'll are to move back into private session.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
23 [Private session]
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2480
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 2480-2481 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2482
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
15 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have page 1 of
17 65 ter 6605. Thank you. This is the Law on the Army of Republika
18 Srpska. Scroll up a little, please, or rather, down.
19 Q. Witness, you know, then, the 1st of June 1992, this law was
20 adopted and published in the Official Gazette? You do know that, I'm
21 sure, don't you?
22 A. Yes, Your Honours, I do know that. At the beginning of the war,
23 the Law on the Army was passed, right at the beginning.
24 Q. Article 1 reads: "The Army of the Serbian Republic
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina (hereinafter the Army) is the armed force of the
Page 2483
1 Serbian republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, defending its sovereignty
2 territory, independence, and constitutional order." Right?
3 A. Your Honours, yes, that's right. That's what it says. What we
4 see here is the name that we mentioned, the Serbian Republic
5 and Herzegovina
6 while.
7 Q. Your commitment as a member of the Army Republika Srpska was to
8 defend its territorial integrity; right, the territorial integrity of the
9 Republic Bosnia and Herzegovina
10 A. Yes, Your Honours. Under this law, this was the case.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can with you now please have
12 page 17. That's the English -- or rather, that's the B/C/S, and the
13 English reference is 25. Let's go to Article 172 [as interpreted]; it's
14 a brief one.
15 Q. It reads: "Command.
16 "Command in the army shall be founded in the principles of a
17 unified command regarding the use of forces and means, single authority,
18 obligations to enforce decisions, command and orders issued by superior
19 officers."
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Lukic. The translation referred us
21 to Article 172. Is that what you are reading?
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 173, Your Honours. Maybe it was
23 misinterpreted.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's okay.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
Page 2484
1 Q. This is what I asked you at the outset, if you remember: One of
2 the main principles of any army is the principle of singleness of command
3 and subordination; right?
4 A. Your Honours, yes. The principle of single command, that is the
5 foundational principle, if you like, of any army.
6 Q. This is the same principle that applied in the Army of Republika
7 Srpska; right?
8 A. Your Honours, for this law, that was supposed to be the case, but
9 I couldn't be one hundred percent certain. I couldn't tell myself, "I
10 can't 100 per certain." I'm under oath. I can't be positive about
11 whether that was the case or not.
12 Q. Let me be more specific in order to not to lead you down that
13 road. Based on your personal experience as a member of the Army
14 Republika Srpska, throughout your years of service, throughout your daily
15 activities, throughout your stint with the Army Republika Srpska, did you
16 ever experience this principle at work: Singleness of command on the one
17 hand, and subordination on the other?
18 A. Your Honours, again, the Army of Republika Srpska had a single
19 chain of command as any other army.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Just a minute, please.
21 Can we please have these two pages of the 65 ter document admitted into
22 evidence.
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm advised that the entire law is already
25 Exhibit P199 -- 91.
Page 2485
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excellent. Can we please move back
2 into private session for a moment.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
4 [Private session]
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2486
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 2486-2487 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2488
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:
14 Q. Earlier today, in response to a question from my colleague
15 Mr. Lukic, you remarked that some of the family members of persons -- of
16 members of the 30th Personnel Centre remained in Serbia, while their
17 husband or father was serving with the Army of Republika Srpska.
18 I'd like to ask you, if I may, those family members who remained
19 in Serbia
20 obtain and pay for housing in Serbia
21 A. Your Honours, just awhile ago we were talking about that, and I
22 can repeat that maybe some of them were authorised to withdraw money from
23 the bank, while their husband or father were in Bosnia waging a war. I
24 would like to add to say that not everybody was in Serbia. Most of the
25 family members were in Republika Srpska, at least according to my
Page 2489
1 estimates.
2 Q. You mentioned that "some of them were authorised to withdraw
3 money from the bank, while their husband or father were in Bosnia
4 a war." Was that the only option for obtaining support for housing
5 available to those family members that you are aware of?
6 A. Your Honours, every professional serviceman who did not have the
7 accommodation taken care of for their family, be it in Republika Srpska
8 or the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, was entitled to compensation for
9 accommodation.
10 Q. And who paid this compensation?
11 A. The Army of Yugoslavia for all members of the 30th Personnel
12 Centre.
13 Q. Later on, in your testimony, there was a discussion about the
14 six-month period when the members of the 30th Personnel Centre did not
15 receive their salaries. You explained that at a later date, all payments
16 due were eventually made, and I just want to make sure I understand what
17 you are saying. When you refer to "all payments due," does that include
18 the payments that were due for that six-month period? Were those payment
19 eventually paid?
20 A. Your Honours, talking about the six-month period towards the end
21 of 1993 or the beginning of 1994, I'd like to say that we did not receive
22 salaries. However, subsequently, a decision was made, I don't know on
23 what basis this was done, that all the areas were subsequently paid
24 arrears that were due to us. I'm not going to reason why this had
25 happened, what was the basis for that, was that because of the sanctions.
Page 2490
1 I'm just talking about facts. I'm not getting into any reasons for why
2 this happened.
3 Q. On page 52 of the transcript today, there was a discussion about
4 rank and insignia, and then the ranks that members of the 30th Personnel
5 Centre received. This is a discussion, for example, at page 52, lines 15
6 to 17. And in those lines, you said the following: "The ranks were
7 confirmed by the Army of Yugoslavia. Once you received the order, you
8 also received the rank."
9 If you can bear with me for a moment. Yeah, that's correct.
10 My question for you is: What kind of order were you referring
11 to?
12 A. Your Honours, as far as I know, every promotion order has to be
13 published in the official military Gazette; and based on the excerpt from
14 the Official Gazette, you are then entitled to a higher salary.
15 Q. For example, when you were promoted during the period of your
16 service with the Army of Republika Srpska, where were your promotion
17 orders published?
18 A. Your Honours, as far as I can remember, it had to be published in
19 the official military Gazette of the Army of Yugoslavia.
20 Q. And again, just so the record is clear, who would have issued
21 such an order to members of the 30th Personnel Centre?
22 A. Your Honours, first of all, I don't understand what it means when
23 you say who issued those orders. I don't know who the order issuer was.
24 Q. I'm sorry, my question was not clear. What army, for example,
25 would have issued the orders for your promotion at that time?
Page 2491
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, the witness, at line 23 of page 68
2 says: "Your Honours, as far as I can remember, it had to be published in
3 the official military Gazette of the Army of Yugoslavia."
4 Which army would have issued that, Mr. Saxon?
5 MR. SAXON: I'll take Your Honour's point, and I'll move on then.
6 Q. You mention, at page 53, lines 22 through 24, that if an officer
7 of the -- if an officer assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre is promoted
8 by the Army of Republika Srpska, in order to receive the higher salary,
9 the rank had to be confirmed through the 30th Personnel Centre.
10 So, in your knowledge and experience, who had the last word on
11 promotions of persons attached to the 30th Personnel Centre?
12 A. Your Honours, this is rather simple. We received salaries from
13 the Army of Yugoslavia
14 was promoted, until the moment the promotion was confirmed by the Army of
15 Yugoslavia
16 promoted three ranks up, but until they received a confirmation of that
17 promotion from the Army of Yugoslavia, nothing would come out of it.
18 Nothing happened.
19 Q. At page 55, line 11 of today's LiveNote, you said that: "I was
20 personally never promoted by the Army of Republika Srpska."
21 So my question is then: How did you receive your promotions
22 while you were serving with the Army of Republika Srpska?
23 A. Your Honours, as for my promotions, as far as I know, when a
24 proposal was submitted for promotion after three years of having held one
25 rank, through the 30th Personnel Centre, I would receive an excerpt from
Page 2492
1 the military Official Gazette of the Army of Yugoslavia bearing the date
2 as of which I was promoted into higher rank, and that was that.
3 Q. And what was the significance, please, of this period of three
4 years?
5 A. Your Honours, as I sit here today, I can't give you the exact
6 period of time for each officer before they could be promoted, three
7 years or four years. It depended on the rank. But I know for certain
8 that a second lieutenant who had graduated from the military academy
9 would be promoted after a year and would become lieutenant.
10 I'm not talking about special promotions. Special promotions
11 were carried out after a shorter period of time. I'm talking about
12 regular promotions.
13 Q. So then, for example, your promotion to captain, was that a
14 regular promotion that you received in the Army of Yugoslavia?
15 A. Your Honours, as far as I know, this was regular promotion, and I
16 believe that the period that you had to spend holding one rank was three
17 years. I personally believe that that is how it was.
18 Q. At page 39, lines 39 -- excuse me, page 39, lines 19 to 21 of
19 today's LiveNote, you said that the 30th Personnel Centre had nothing to
20 do with some reservists in the Army Republika Srpska. Can you explain
21 what you meant by that?
22 A. Your Honours, in addition to these persons who belonged to the
23 30th Personnel Centre, which is something that we have discussed in great
24 deal, the Army of Republika Srpska had its own reserve. Later, it had
25 its own NCOs, officers. They were referred to colloquially as Karadzic's
Page 2493
1 officers, those who were trained during the war.
2 Those persons, let me tell you straightaway, were also the
3 receiving salaries from the budget of Republika Srpska. As far as I
4 remember, it was 50 German mark for a private, an ordinary soldier; 60
5 for an NCO; and 70 for a higher ranking officer. But they had nothing to
6 do with the 30th Personnel Centre.
7 As for the 30th Personnel Centre, it was in charge of those
8 persons, just to make this perfectly clear, who up to until the war in
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina had already been serving as professional JNA soldiers,
10 servicemen.
11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
13 Judge?
14 Questioned by the Court:
15 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a few questions to
16 ask you, so that we can clarify the administrative situation at the time,
17 your administrative situation when the war broke out in
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 From an administrative point of view, in the army, how did you
20 move from the Yugoslav Army to the Army of Republika Srpska? Who made
21 that decision?
22 A. Your Honour, I had been a JNA officer, for example; and then the
23 decision was taken to establish the Army Republika Srpska. I
24 automatically became an officer of the Army of Republika Srpska.
25 As for my salary and all of the entitlements that we discussed, I
Page 2494
1 was still receiving all of those from Belgrade.
2 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 So, in fact, the decision was automatic. You were not asked your
4 opinion about it, i.e., whether you wanted to stay within the Yugoslav
5 Army or whether you wanted to become a member of the Army Republika
6 Srpska?
7 A. Your Honour, at the time, persons who were born in
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina who for the most part were Serbs who remained. I'm
9 not denying the fact that all of the members born in Serbia were
10 transferred by planes including the soldiers at the time, and lest I
11 should omit anything, and that's how the Army of Republika Srpska was
12 established at the time in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
13 Just for you to understand better, during the war, I personally,
14 if that's what you are asking me, on several occasions asked to be
15 transferred to the VJ. Why?
16 I apologise. Are we in private session?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are in open session.
18 May the Chamber please move into private session.
19 [Private session]
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2495
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Page 2495 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2496
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 I'll have to repeat what I said now that we are in open session.
5 Just to say, to remind you again as I said to you yesterday, you are not
6 supposed to discuss the case with anybody during the break until you were
7 excused from testifying.
8 We will adjourn the court now and we'll start again tomorrow
9 morning at 9.00 in the same courtroom, courtroom II. Okay.
10 Court adjourned.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.38 p.m.
12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day of
13 December 2008, at 9.00 a.m.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25