Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2421

 1                           Wednesday, 10 December 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.  Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  May we have the appearances

12     for the day, Mr. Prosecution.

13             MR. SAXON:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

14     Honours.  Daniel Saxon for the Prosecution, together with Carmela Javier.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

16             For the Defence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

18     morning to everybody in the courtroom.  Mr. Perisic is represented by

19     Mr. Guy-Smith Smith, Novak Lukic, our assistant Daniela Tasic, and our

20     legal assistants Tina Drolec and Milos Androvic.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Good morning, Mr. Witness.

22     Once again, we can't call you by name, as you know.  I'm sorry to call

23     you Mr. Witness, but that's how it goes.  Just to remind you that you are

24     still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your

25     testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the

Page 2422

 1     truth.  Thank you very much.

 2             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 3                           WITNESS:  WITNESS MP-005 [Resumed]

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Examination by Mr. Saxon:  [Continued]

 6        Q.   Good morning, Mr. MP-OO5.  Mr. MP-OO5, while you were serving

 7     with the Army of Republika Srpska, could the Army of Yugoslavia have

 8     redeployed you to another position within the Army of Yugoslavia?

 9        A.   Your Honours, first of all, good morning to everybody.  When we

10     are talking about the personnel of the 30th Personnel Centre, including

11     myself, the law says it was with the Army of Yugoslavia because we were

12     paid which the Army of Yugoslavia.

13        Q.   Do I take your response to my question as a yes, witness?

14        A.   Your Honours, yes.

15             MR. SAXON:  For some reason, I'm not getting the English

16     interpretation in my headphones, but I'm able to follow the transcript at

17     this time.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  There must be something wrong with yours because

19     we are ...

20             MR. SAXON:  We'll try it again.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Are you receiving interpretation?

22             MR. SAXON:  Yes, yes, I am.

23        Q.   And, Witness, if you had received such an order from the Army of

24     Yugoslavia to redeploy to a different post in the Army of Yugoslavia,

25     would you have followed it?

Page 2423

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness is

 3     requested to speculate.  He should have been asked whether he ever

 4     received an order of that kind, rather than what he would have done had

 5     he received an order of that kind.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

 7             MR. SAXON:  I can rephrase it, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Did you ever receive such an order from the Army of Yugoslavia to

 9     redeploy to another position while you were serving the Army of Republika

10     Srpska?

11        A.   Your Honours, during that period, I did not receive an order.

12        Q.   During that period, did you consider yourself bound by the laws

13     and rules of the Army of Yugoslavia?

14        A.   Your Honours, the laws of Yugoslavia are binding upon us because

15     we belong to the 30th Personnel Centre.  I can illustrate that with an

16     example.  If a person who belonged to the 30th Personnel Centre committed

17     a breach of discipline and was fined, then this would have incurred a

18     loss of one part of their salary, and that should have been implement on

19     the side of the Army of Yugoslavia.

20        Q.   Witness, were officers or soldiers assigned to the 30th Personnel

21     Centre able to find housing in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the Republika

22     Srpska?

23        A.   Your Honours, could you please repeat your question.

24        Q.   My question pertains to housing, finding a place to stay; and my

25     question is:  Were officers who were assigned to the 30th Personnel

Page 2424

 1     Centre but serving in the Army of Republika Srpska, were they able --

 2     persons like yourself, were they able to find housing in the Republika

 3     Srpska?

 4        A.   Your Honours, I would rather say that the personnel of the

 5     30th Personnel Centre had accommodation in Republika Srpska.  If they

 6     didn't have, they were compensated and this was regulated through the

 7     30th Personnel Centre again.

 8        Q.   Just so that the record is clear, you say if they didn't have

 9     accommodation in Republika Srpska, they were compensated.  Are you

10     speaking in financial terms?

11        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

12        Q.   You testified yesterday that the 30th Personnel Centre was in

13     Belgrade.  Did you ever go to the 30th Personnel Centre?

14        A.   Your Honours, I was never there.  I never went there.

15        Q.   Witness MP-OO5, have you heard about something called the

16     40th Personnel Centre?

17        A.   Your Honours, the 30th Personnel Centre was in charge of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the 40th Personnel Centre was in charge of

19     Croatia, or rather, was tasked with the jobs pertaining to Croatia.

20        Q.   What army did the 40th Personnel Centre belong to?

21        A.   Your Honours, the 40th Personnel Centre is military post 4001,

22     Belgrade, and it belonged to the Army of Yugoslavia.

23        Q.   Do you know when the 40th Personnel Centre was operational?

24        A.   Your Honours, I don't know when it was established, but I believe

25     that it was abolished at the moment when the Serbs were forced to

Page 2425

 1     withdraw from Croatia.

 2        Q.   When you use the term the "Serbs" in this context, "the Serbs

 3     were forced to withdraw from Croatia," are you referring to all Serbs or

 4     are you referring to a particular army what?

 5        A.   Your Honours, I'm referring to the overall events:  The army, the

 6     people, everybody withdraw.  That's the context that I had in mind.  It

 7     was not that only the military withdraw and that the people stayed

 8     behind; that was not the case.

 9        Q.   And just so the record is clear, which army withdrew from

10     Croatia?

11        A.   The Serbian army of Krajina.

12        Q.   Where was the 40th Personnel Centre?  Where was it located?

13        A.   Your Honours, as far as I know, based on some document, it was in

14     Belgrade; but as I've just told you, I never went either to the 30th or

15     the 40th Personnel Centres.  I was never physically in any of them.

16        Q.   Do you know if the personnel assigned to the 40th Personnel

17     Centre were serving in Belgrade?

18        A.   Your Honours, I can only assume that that was the case.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the basis for that assumption?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.  I did

21     not understand the last question.  I would kindly ask the gentleman to

22     repeat it.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you please repeat your question, Mr. Saxon.

24             MR. SAXON:

25        Q.   My question was:  Were the officers who were assigned to the

Page 2426

 1     40th Personnel Centre of the Army of Yugoslavia actually serving in

 2     Belgrade at that post, if you know?

 3        A.   Your Honours, I apologise, I made a mistake.  They were in

 4     Croatia, and I assume that one or two people were in charge of keeping

 5     records and looking after the men who were in Croatia.  So somebody was

 6     in Belgrade and that's the context that I had in mind.

 7        Q.   And these officers who were in Croatia, what army were they

 8     serving with during the war?

 9        A.   Your Honours, in the Serbian Army of Krajina.

10             MR. SAXON:  One moment, please.

11             Your Honours, at this time, that concludes my direct examination.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.  Mr. Lukic.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

14        Q.   Good morning, sir.  I'm Novak Lukic, and I will be asking you

15     questions on behalf of the accused Perisic.  Before I start, I would like

16     to draw your attention to the fact that I have to switch off my mic after

17     my questions so as to block your voice; and also since we speak the same

18     language, I would kindly ask you to make a break after my question.

19        A.   I understand.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move into private

21     session immediately.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

23                           [Private session]

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 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

10        Q.   Sir, you gave evidence yesterday about a period when the JNA was

11     leaving Bosnia-Herzegovina, leaving large amounts of equipment behind in

12     its territory.  You even went on to say that the equipment remained in

13     the hands of the Army Republika Srpska.  You do remember saying that to

14     the Prosecutor yesterday, don't you?

15        A.   Your Honours, indeed, I remember saying that, but I wouldn't

16     quite say large amounts.  There were things that were taken back to

17     Yugoslavia, and there were things that remained.  I wouldn't necessarily

18     say that the majority of the equipment remained or, indeed, left.  But

19     there is one thing that I have to say.  This wasn't a total withdraw of

20     the JNA together with all of its equipment.  They were leftovers, so to

21     speak.

22        Q.   I'll try to make my question more specific now, just to clear

23     this up to the extent that we can.

24             The war in Bosnia started in April 1992, that's what you said

25     yesterday at page 8; right?  Do you remember that?

Page 2435

 1        A.   Your Honours, the war began sometime in April.  I don't know when

 2     exactly what date marks the beginning of the war.  It may have broken out

 3     earlier on, or at least that's what some people seem to believe.

 4        Q.   You do believe that it broke out in April, that's your opinion?

 5     You stated that yesterday, did you not?

 6        A.   If you look at most of the media, they all seem to be talking

 7     about April 1992 in relation to Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   Do you know when the -- when Republika Srpska was set up?

 9        A.   Do you want me to give you dates, or --

10        Q.   No, just a very general idea.  You can tell us the season or the

11     year, if you remember?

12        A.   Your Honours, as far as I remember, Republika Srpska was

13     officially established sometime in May 1992.  At first, it was called the

14     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina --

15        Q.   No, no, no.  I don't mean to interrupt you, but all I need is a

16     brief answer.  You've said enough, more than enough.

17             Do you know in the roughest of terms when the Army of Republika

18     Srpska was first established.

19        A.   Your Honours, I think in May, but I'm not entirely certain.

20     April, May.  Again, officially, probably sometime like April or May.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which year?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992, Your Honour.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   I assume you remember that there was a referendum early in

25     continue.  Citizens were given a chance to say whether they wished to

Page 2436

 1     remain in Yugoslavia or whether they wanted Bosnia-Herzegovina to become

 2     an independent state.  This was something that was organised by the

 3     leaders of Republika Srpska.  You do remember that particular referendum,

 4     don't you?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.  This was a landmark event concerning that particular

 6     period of time in that particular area.

 7        Q.   I'm not about to ask you what your vote was, but I assume you

 8     were always in favour of staying within Yugoslavia; right?

 9        A.   Your Honours, may I explain this?  This would require a bit of a

10     lengthy explanation.

11        Q.   Not that lengthy, please.

12        A.   Your Honours, as far as the vote, the overall vote was concerned

13     in Croatia, for example, because at one point in time I was there at the

14     academy, or in Bosnia-Herzegovina, I never took part in any voting

15     procedure whatsoever.  I'll be happy to share this with Mr. Lukic in no

16     uncertain terms:  All of the officers were fighting for the Socialist

17     Federative Republic of Yugoslavia as they had vowed to do, or rather, had

18     that been the case, there would be nothing for us here to discuss today.

19     Unfortunately, that was not the case.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the Supreme Commander of the Army of

21     Republika Srpska was Radovan Karadzic?

22        A.   Your Honours, yes.  I know that Radovan Karadzic was President

23     and the supreme commander.

24        Q.   And Ratko Mladic was the commander of the Main Staff of the Army

25     Republika Srpska; wouldn't that be correct?

Page 2437

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honours, that is correct.

 2        Q.   A lot of the equipment that I asked you about was transferred

 3     from Croatia and Slovenia to the territory Bosnia-Herzegovina once the

 4     army left the eastern countries?

 5        A.   Your Honours, when the JNA was withdrawing from Slovenia and

 6     Croatia, a lot of the equipment, as you put it, remained in

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move into private session,

 9     please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

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23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

Page 2456

 1             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   I'm going to have some questions about the 30th Personnel Centre,

 4     and I'm going to be talking about things that you testified about in open

 5     session.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The page number is 24630 -- 24603.

 7     Just a moment.

 8        Q.   You said at the time, sir:  [In English] "The personnel centre of

 9     the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia was a department in the

10     personnel administration of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.

11     It was established at the point in the time when the war in Bosnia began,

12     or at least I didn't know about it up until then.  But when the war

13     began, I received papers where it said, as I hearing, 'the 30th Personnel

14     Centre.'"

15             MR. LUKIC:  It's page 24603, line 16 testimony.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] You testified under oath, did you not?

17        A.   Your Honours, could you please repeat the question, just the

18     question.

19        Q.   The question is:  Do you remember that you made a solemn

20     declaration at the beginning of that case, just like you did yesterday

21     when you entered into courtroom?

22        A.   Yes, Your Honours, I did make a solemn declaration, of course.

23        Q.   And you claimed at the time that the 30th Personnel Centre

24     existed when the war in Bosnia started?

25        A.   Your Honours, I'm still claiming that from the beginning of the

Page 2457

 1     war until the end of the war, we received salaries and all the other

 2     money, benefits, and that was the task of the 30th Personnel Centre.

 3     When it was established exactly, I don't know.  I did not go to Belgrade

 4     to check.  If you were to ask me again when exactly it was established, I

 5     will say that I don't know.  I'm just saying what I was receiving, what I

 6     heard, and what I saw in the documents.

 7        Q.   Witness, you said that already, didn't you?  Now I'm asking you

 8     this:  When you testified in that trial, did you present your

 9     assumptions, or were you certain that the 30th Personnel Centre existed

10     at the time the war in Bosnia broke out in 1992?  That's what I'm asking

11     you.

12        A.   Your Honours, I'm not claiming that the 30th Personnel Centre

13     existed already in April 1992.  What I am claiming is that payments were

14     being made throughout to the persons who made up the 30th Personnel

15     Centre.

16             Nevertheless, may I just finish?

17        Q.   Yes, please, go ahead.

18        A.   To be perfectly honest about the payments, there was a six-month

19     period throughout which no payments were made.  The cycle was

20     interrupted.

21        Q.   We'll be getting to that.  I'm trying to keep my questions under

22     control because we are in public session.  Please stick to my questions.

23             When you gave evidence that time under oath, you said that the

24     30th Personnel Centre existed at the time the war broke out in Bosnia.

25     That is what you said.  Now, were you mistaken at the time, or do you

Page 2458

 1     stand by your previous statement?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think don't put part of his quotation to him;

 3     put the full quotation.  If I may quote what you quoted as him having

 4     said is:  "It was established at the point in time when the war in Bosnia

 5     began, or at least I didn't know about it up until then.  But when the

 6     war began, I received papers where it said, as I'm hearing, 'the 30th

 7     Personnel Centre.'"  This is what you quoted.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So do include also the part that says, "or at

10     least I didn't know about it up until then"?

11             MR. LUKIC:  Right, Your Honour.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] When the war in Bosnia began, then you said

13     that --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please be asked to wait until the

15     translation into B/C/S is completed before putting his question.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... were being transmitted to

18     you via the 30th Personnel Centre, yes or no?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters are asking for something.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, I'll repeat.

21        Q.   At the time the war in Bosnia broke out, which as you say

22     occurred in April 1992, did you find out that your salaries and other

23     entitlements were being sent to you by the 30th Personnel Centre?

24        A.   Your Honours, in April, our salaries still arrived on a regular

25     basis, but I never said anything about when it came into existence or who

Page 2459

 1     it was established by.  Was it perhaps established at a later date, I

 2     don't know.  But all the payments and the salaries were being paid on a

 3     regular basis.

 4        Q.   No one is challenging that.  What I'm telling you now is what you

 5     said in the Milosevic trial.  You are receiving your salaries and

 6     entitlements throughout.  Was it from April 1992 or as of April 1992

 7     through the 30th Personnel Centre?

 8        A.   Your Honours, April 1992 is the very beginning of the war.

 9     Confusion reigned.  Again, the 30th Personnel Centre, I don't know

10     whether it existed back in April 1992, or whether it was in 1993 or 1994

11     that it came into existence.  But the last thing I said was that the

12     30th Personnel Centre was performing that task.  I will never claim,

13     because I don't know.  I don't know when.  I wasn't there.

14        Q.   Witness, let us not dwell on this for too long.  There is one

15     thing that is really important to me.  Maybe my question was not specific

16     enough.

17             While you were being proofed by the OTP, at least that was my

18     understanding, you said you didn't know when the 30th Personnel Centre

19     was established.  Okay.  Now, I'm confronting you with a portion of your

20     testimony where you said in no uncertain terms that you heard of the

21     existence of the personnel centre.

22             So my question is this:  Is it possible -- you were under oath

23     then, you are under oath today.  Is it possible that you are telling us

24     about some things that you are not entirely certain about?  Yes or no.

25             Please, that's all I'm asking you to tell me.

Page 2460

 1        A.   Your Honours, I'm not telling you anything that is not precise,

 2     that is not true.  I'm not trying to create confusion.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much.  Let's move on.

 4             Did you ever hear of a personnel section or administration that

 5     was with the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 6        A.   Your Honours, the Main Staff of the Army Republika Srpska did

 7     have a personnel section.  Of course, they were dealing with personnel

 8     related issues in their entirety.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  What about your units, was there a service or perhaps

10     a person who was in charge of personnel related issues?

11        A.   Your Honours, any unit of whichever branch must have an officer

12     in charge of that.  An officer, perhaps an NCO, I can't really say.

13     There is something else that I'm trying to say about these officers.  The

14     30th Personnel Centre had nothing to do with some reservists in the Army

15     of Republika Srpska.  When one mentions the Main Staff of the Army

16     Republika Srpska, needless to say, there are other people there who are

17     involved in addition to those from the 30th Personnel Centre.

18        Q.   My question was brief in order to ask my next question, because I

19     think that will help us keep this short.  What about all of your

20     correspondence, to be quite specific, requests, documents, decisions, of

21     the 30th Personnel Centre that you were forwarding or receiving, did you

22     always send this through your personnel officer in your unit of the Army

23     of Republika Srpska?

24        A.   Your Honours, yes.  The personnel officer would go to Belgrade to

25     the 30th Personnel Centre to deal with issues, to put a stamp in the

Page 2461

 1     medical record, and so on and so forth.  If I have to state this again

 2     clearly for the record, I would only be too happy to do just that.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You never received through the 30th Personnel Centre

 4     any orders regarding your professional tasks with the Army of Republika

 5     Srpska, did you?

 6        A.   Your Honours, the 30th Personnel Centre, if you look at the name

 7     itself, the 30th Personnel Centre, they deal with status related issues,

 8     and not with combat missions, as Mr. Lukic suggests.  Was there a

 9     different channel that was used for this?  I really don't know.  But what

10     I've been saying throughout is this:  The 30th Personnel Centre from the

11     beginning of the war, or from whenever it was established, was keeping

12     track of personnel related issues.

13        Q.   Just a second.  Please restrict yourself to answering my

14     question.  It will be easier for all of us.

15             My question was:  At any time throughout your service with the

16     Army of Republika Srpska, did you receive any order regarding your

17     professional activity, an order that came from the 30th Personnel Centre?

18             That's the question.  Yes or no, please.

19        A.   No combat orders went through the 30th Personnel Centre.

20        Q.   Do you know whether any officer of the Army of Republika Srpska

21     was transferred within the Army of Republika Srpska pursuant to a

22     decision that was made by the 30th Personnel Centre?

23        A.   Your Honours, as far as I know, within the Army of Republika

24     Srpska, this was the sort of matter that was decided upon by the Main

25     Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

Page 2462

 1        Q.   You told us this morning that you received no status order from

 2     the 30th Personnel Centre, but my understanding was you were saying that

 3     you had heard something to the effect that there were officers belonging

 4     to the 30th Personnel Centre who were ordered to go back to the Army of

 5     Yugoslavia.

 6             Is my understanding correct since I don't have the transcript in

 7     front of me?

 8        A.   Your Honours, during the war, there were transfers between the

 9     Army of Yugoslavia and the Army of Republika Srpska, and this worked in

10     both directions.

11        Q.   Do you know whether any officer belonging to the 30th Personnel

12     Centre serving with the Army of Republika Srpska was ever ordered by the

13     Army of Yugoslavia to go back to the Army of Yugoslavia?  This is as

14     specific as can be.  Yes or no, please.

15        A.   Your Honours, I don't know.  I never had a chance to find out.

16        Q.   I assume you know that a large number of officers of the Army of

17     Republika Srpska who were members of the 30th Personnel Centre had

18     families who were in the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia;

19     do you agree with me?

20        A.   Your Honours, that's true.  There were many members of the

21     30th Personnel Centre serving in Republika Srpska who had families who

22     were staying in Serbia, while they themselves were serving with the Army

23     of Republika Srpska.

24        Q.   Then you probably also know that those people's families who were

25     living in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were often authorised to

Page 2463

 1     withdraw their salaries and to do as they pleased with their salaries in

 2     the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; right?

 3        A.   Yes, Your Honours, that's right.  Say someone was in

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina, they were unable to withdraw their salaries for

 5     whatever it was that they were working at the time, and then they had

 6     every right to authorize, for example, their wife living in Belgrade to

 7     withdraw their salaries for them.

 8        Q.   Then you must know that the families of those persons, unless

 9     they were spouses, for example, their children, had health insurance --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Can counsel please repeat

11     the question.  We didn't understand what he was trying to say.  Thank

12     you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I'll repeat my question.

14        Q.   You know as well, don't you, that the families of those persons,

15     unless they were themselves beneficiaries of some sort of health

16     insurance, got the right to use this health insurance from their spouses

17     who were members of the 30th Personnel Centre; right?

18        A.   Yes, Your Honours, that's right.  Family members were insured

19     through whoever was a member of the 30th Personnel Centre.  I did say

20     that, didn't I?  Every year there had to be a stamp that was put in a

21     particular booklet, a medical record, for that purpose.

22        Q.   Otherwise, their families would have had to pay their way in

23     order to obtain some form of health insurance had it not been for those

24     people already having health insurance by virtue of them being members of

25     the 30th Personnel Centre; right?

Page 2464

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honours, that's right.  If someone has no health

 2     insurance, they have to pay for it out of their own pocket.

 3        Q.   You told Mr. Saxon yesterday that every time anyone's salary was

 4     increased, although this was a time of hyperinflation --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Can counsel please be asked to repeat the last

 6     part of his question.  Interpreters didn't understand it.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You hear that, counsel.  The interpreters didn't

 8     hear the last parts of your question.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe I'm too quick switching off my

10     mic.  I apologise to the interpreters.

11        Q.   When you spoke to Mr. Saxon yesterday, you were looking at this

12     document about this -- about this increase in salaries that aggravated

13     conditions.  There was a session, and that was recorded.  You said that

14     every time salary was increased, although there was hyperinflation, and

15     this meant something to you.  Do you remember saying that?

16        A.   Yes, Your Honours, that's right.  An increase in our salaries

17     meant improvement every time, but then again I said this was a time of

18     galloping inflation.  So whatever improvement came through this did not

19     imply a major change.  But every time one's salary increases, of course

20     it's a good thing.  It can't possibly be a bad thing, can it?

21        Q.   You mentioned awhile ago that throughout a six-month period, you

22     were receiving no salary at all through the 30th Personnel Centre, at a

23     time when Federal Republic of Yugoslavia introduced the sanctions --

24     imposed sanctions on Republika Srpska; right?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

Page 2465

 1             MR. SAXON:  I could be wrong and I'm sorry to interrupt.  I don't

 2     recall that the witness gave a reason for why the -- for why salaries

 3     were interrupted for a six-month period.  But if I'm wrong, I'm willing

 4     to be corrected.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, I apologise.  The witness merely

 6     said that he was not receiving a salary for those six months.  I added

 7     this because I thought it wasn't something that was likely to be

 8     challenged, so I do apologise.  Here we go.

 9        Q.   Witness, you said for about six months, at one point in time, you

10     were receiving no salary at all through the 30th Personnel Centre; is

11     that right?

12        A.   Yes, Your Honours, that's right.  We are looking at a six-month

13     period throughout which we were receiving no salary at all from anyone.

14     There were no payments being made.  But as I said, at a later date, all

15     the payments due were eventually made.

16        Q.   Do you perhaps know what the reason was for this interruption?

17        A.   Your Honours, I really don't know the reason.  What I'm telling

18     you is fact.  There may have been a reason that occurred somewhere close

19     to the top of the pyramid, but I can hardly be expected to shed any light

20     on that sort of matter.

21        Q.   Do you remember hearing that after Republika Srpska had refused

22     to sign the Vance-Owen plan, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as a

23     result imposed sanctions on Republika Srpska and withdrew all of the

24     payments that it was making to Republika Srpska?

25        A.   Your Honours, yes.  I know that the Federal Republic of

Page 2466

 1     Yugoslavia imposed sanctions on Republika Srpska.  I am, however, not

 2     privy to any detail about that.  Again, I'm talking about the facts that

 3     I am aware of.  I'm not here to discuss political decisions.

 4        Q.   Despite which, you remain with the Army Republika Srpska

 5     throughout this period, during which you were receiving no salaries at

 6     all; right?

 7        A.   Your Honours, I stayed put.  There was a war on.  It's not like

 8     one had a choice, like one could pick where to go, nor did anyone suggest

 9     that I should be headed elsewhere, nor was I ever ordered to go anywhere

10     else, or anything like that.

11        Q.   Just to add to your last answer:  Even after the war, you still

12     remained there, didn't you?

13        A.   Yes, that's right, Your Honours.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go back into private

15     session.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2467

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11 Pages 2467-2473 redacted. Private session.

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16

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18

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Page 2474

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 7             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Witness, now you have mentioned the word the confirmation of

10     rank, or you called it a verification of a rank.  What does this mean to

11     you?  What does it mean when you say that a rank was verified?

12        A.   Your Honours, as far as I know, if a rank is verified, that means

13     that it is recognised.  It had to be recognised, verified by somebody.

14        Q.   Am I right in saying that this means that a rank that a member of

15     the 30th Personnel Centre receives in the Army Republika Srpska has to be

16     verified by the 30th Personnel Centre, to entitle the person to all the

17     benefits that go with the rank; would that be correct?

18        A.   Your Honours, would you please be more specific in your question.

19        Q.   Every officer is entitled to a certain salary with a certain

20     rank; the higher the rank, the more money that person receives every

21     month.  Is that correct?

22        A.   Your Honours, yes, that's correct.  The higher the rank, the more

23     money you receive every month.

24        Q.   And if an officer of the 30th Personnel Centre is promoted to a

25     higher rank by the Army of Republika Srpska, in order to receive more

Page 2475

 1     money, that rank has to be verified or confirmed through the

 2     30th Personnel Centre in the Army of Yugoslavia; is that correct?

 3        A.   Your Honours, yes, that's correct, because the money arrived from

 4     Belgrade, the salaries were paid from Belgrade.  I don't know how else

 5     this could be looked at.

 6        Q.   To verify a rank, means to recognise a rank that was received in

 7     the Army Republika Srpska and the status entitlement in the Army of

 8     Yugoslavia; would that be a correct interpretation?

 9        A.   [No interpretation]

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm getting no interpretation.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, that's correct.

12     If somebody, for example, receives a rank ...

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that sentence complete?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the sentence is not complete.

15     Your Honours, I did not complete it.

16             For example, if somebody had a rank of captain and then became

17     major, he was promoted in the Army Republika Srpska.  He would still

18     receive a captain's salary until the moment the new rank is recognised by

19     the Army of Yugoslavia or the 30th Personnel Centre.  In practical terms,

20     that person may have been promoted, but without any financial effects

21     that go with that promotion.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   And that's verification at the moment when the rank is verified

24     by the 30th Personnel Centre, from that moment on, the person is entitled

25     to a higher salary as if he were an officer of the Army of Yugoslavia?

Page 2476

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honours, that's exactly the case.  Until the moment the

 2     rank is verified by the body that's paying you, you may be promoted in

 3     any way; but before it was recognised, you did not get any money.

 4        Q.   But in the command chain, the promotion was recognised at a

 5     moment when it became effected in the Army of Republika Srpska; wouldn't

 6     that be correct?

 7        A.   Your Honours, that should have been the case.  However, how many

 8     people were promoted by the Army Republika Srpska I can't tell you at

 9     this moment.  I can't tell you anything specific at this moment.

10        Q.   I'm asking you.  At the moment when you were promoted into

11     captain 1st class in the Army Republika Srpska, from that moment on, you

12     bore the insignia of that rank, and you had that rank within the

13     framework of the army that promoted you; is that correct?

14        A.   Your Honours, I was personally never promoted by the Army

15     Republika Srpska.  From the moment when you received your order, from

16     that moment, you were promoted; and from that moment, you bore the

17     insignia that went with the rank.

18        Q.   I asked you just awhile ago, and you told me that you were first

19     promoted by the Army Republika Srpska, and then your promotion was

20     verified by the Army of Yugoslavia.  Do you remember that you answered

21     that question positively?

22        A.   Your Honours, as far as I can remember, there was a dual

23     promotion.  One was from the Army Republika Srpska, but I can't give you

24     the exact period when that was happening.  There were dual orders:  One

25     from the Army Republika Srpska, the other from the 30th Personnel Centre

Page 2477

 1     of the Army of Yugoslavia.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Can we now move on to something else.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the Court please produce P399.  I

 4     believe this document was already shown in public session.

 5        Q.   We saw this decision yesterday, and you answered my learned

 6     friend's question with regard to this decision.  This was signed by Ratko

 7     Mladic, this decision was made by the Main Staff of the Army Republika

 8     Srpska, and this is a decision on the compensation for military service

 9     in difficult special conditions.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move on to page 2

11     paragraph under number 4, please.

12        Q.   You provided some answers to Mr. Saxon yesterday.  I'm going to

13     read slowly.

14             "Pursuant to Article 71 of the rules on travel and other expenses

15     in the VJ, the commander of the Main Staff of the Army Republika Srpska,

16     the commander of the air force and anti-aircraft defence, commanders of

17     the corps of the PVO," which I don't know what it stands for, "and

18     independent units and institutions will adopt decisions ex officio

19     through their personnel administrations, on compensation for all persons

20     who meet the conditions in this decision.  The deadline for adopting the

21     decision and submitting it to the accounting centre of the Ministry of

22     Defence of the Army of Yugoslavia is 28 February 1994."

23             My question:  It arises from Article 4, that this decision ex

24     officio is bypassed by the personnel organs of the Army Republika Srpska;

25     is that correct?

Page 2478

 1        A.   Decisions within these specified units are adopted by bodies of

 2     the Army of Republika Srpska.

 3        Q.   Paragraph 7 reads:  "Personnel organs in the command will adopt

 4     decisions ex officio to abolish the right to compensation for all persons

 5     leaving the Army of Republika Srpska and submit such decisions to the

 6     accounting centre of the Ministry of the Defence of VJ within 15 days of

 7     leaving the army."

 8             Do you agree with me that these decisions on abolishing the right

 9     to compensation is something that is within the remit of personnel organs

10     in the Army of Republika Srpska?

11        A.   Your Honours, personnel organs of the Army Republika Srpska know

12     right there and then who it was that left.  Someone over in Belgrade will

13     not simply keep paying their salaries throughout, because they don't

14     know.  It is the personnel organs of the Army Republika Srpska who will

15     know that someone left, which means that this someone is no longer

16     entitled to any form of compensation.  They must then submit to the

17     accounting centre of the Ministry of the Defence of VJ the appropriate

18     documents within 15 days, as stated.

19        Q.   Your answer is somewhat broad, but my question was this:  It is

20     the personnel organs of the Army Republika Srpska that actually adopt

21     this decision on the right to compensation; right?

22        A.   Yes, Your Honours, that's right, because they are in the area and

23     they know what is going on.

24        Q.   All right.  About this document, at the bottom of the page, it

25     says "Forward copies to."

Page 2479

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we can please zoom in.

 2        Q.   You can read all these abbreviations here.  My question here

 3     about this order is this, because all these are abbreviations:  Do you

 4     see any mention there of anybody whatsoever of the VJ from the Federal

 5     Republic of Yugoslavia, the part of the order that pertains to delivery

 6     and the addressees?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it so that the English part was not translated,

 8     or is it on the next page?  It says "copies to" but nothing is written

 9     there.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this matters to me.  I

11     could read it out, but yes, we do see the abbreviations on the next

12     English page.

13        Q.   I assume you understand these abbreviations, Witness?  My

14     question is merely this:  If you look at this list of abbreviation, do

15     you see that this order was submitted to anyone at all in the VJ or in

16     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

17        A.   Your Honours, as far as I can tell, by looking at the section of

18     the document that pertains to delivery or distribution, there is not a

19     single body named that is within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Thank you very much.  That's it for

21     this document, and now we'll are to move back into private session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2480

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11 Pages 2480-2481 redacted. Private session.

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19

20

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Page 2482

 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

15             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have page 1 of

17     65 ter 6605.  Thank you.  This is the Law on the Army of Republika

18     Srpska.  Scroll up a little, please, or rather, down.

19        Q.   Witness, you know, then, the 1st of June 1992, this law was

20     adopted and published in the Official Gazette?  You do know that, I'm

21     sure, don't you?

22        A.   Yes, Your Honours, I do know that.  At the beginning of the war,

23     the Law on the Army was passed, right at the beginning.

24        Q.   Article 1 reads:  "The Army of the Serbian Republic of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina (hereinafter the Army) is the armed force of the

Page 2483

 1     Serbian republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, defending its sovereignty

 2     territory, independence, and constitutional order."  Right?

 3        A.   Your Honours, yes, that's right.  That's what it says.  What we

 4     see here is the name that we mentioned, the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

 5     and Herzegovina.  That was at the beginning, and it went on for a short

 6     while.

 7        Q.   Your commitment as a member of the Army Republika Srpska was to

 8     defend its territorial integrity; right, the territorial integrity of the

 9     Republic Bosnia and Herzegovina, later Republika Srpska?

10        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  Under this law, this was the case.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can with you now please have

12     page 17.  That's the English -- or rather, that's the B/C/S, and the

13     English reference is 25.  Let's go to Article 172 [as interpreted]; it's

14     a brief one.

15        Q.   It reads:  "Command.

16             "Command in the army shall be founded in the principles of a

17     unified command regarding the use of forces and means, single authority,

18     obligations to enforce decisions, command and orders issued by superior

19     officers."

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, Mr. Lukic.  The translation referred us

21     to Article 172.  Is that what you are reading?

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 173, Your Honours.  Maybe it was

23     misinterpreted.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's okay.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 2484

 1        Q.   This is what I asked you at the outset, if you remember:  One of

 2     the main principles of any army is the principle of singleness of command

 3     and subordination; right?

 4        A.   Your Honours, yes.  The principle of single command, that is the

 5     foundational principle, if you like, of any army.

 6        Q.   This is the same principle that applied in the Army of Republika

 7     Srpska; right?

 8        A.   Your Honours, for this law, that was supposed to be the case, but

 9     I couldn't be one hundred percent certain.  I couldn't tell myself, "I

10     can't 100 per certain."  I'm under oath.  I can't be positive about

11     whether that was the case or not.

12        Q.   Let me be more specific in order to not to lead you down that

13     road.  Based on your personal experience as a member of the Army

14     Republika Srpska, throughout your years of service, throughout your daily

15     activities, throughout your stint with the Army Republika Srpska, did you

16     ever experience this principle at work:  Singleness of command on the one

17     hand, and subordination on the other?

18        A.   Your Honours, again, the Army of Republika Srpska had a single

19     chain of command as any other army.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Thank you.  Just a minute, please.

21     Can we please have these two pages of the 65 ter document admitted into

22     evidence.

23                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm advised that the entire law is already

25     Exhibit P199 -- 91.

Page 2485

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excellent.  Can we please move back

 2     into private session for a moment.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

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10   (redacted)

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Page 2486

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11 Pages 2486-2487 redacted. Private session.

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Page 2488

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:

14        Q.   Earlier today, in response to a question from my colleague

15     Mr. Lukic, you remarked that some of the family members of persons -- of

16     members of the 30th Personnel Centre remained in Serbia, while their

17     husband or father was serving with the Army of Republika Srpska.

18             I'd like to ask you, if I may, those family members who remained

19     in Serbia, I'd like to ask you about their housing.  How would they

20     obtain and pay for housing in Serbia?

21        A.   Your Honours, just awhile ago we were talking about that, and I

22     can repeat that maybe some of them were authorised to withdraw money from

23     the bank, while their husband or father were in Bosnia waging a war.  I

24     would like to add to say that not everybody was in Serbia.  Most of the

25     family members were in Republika Srpska, at least according to my

Page 2489

 1     estimates.

 2        Q.   You mentioned that "some of them were authorised to withdraw

 3     money from the bank, while their husband or father were in Bosnia waging

 4     a war."  Was that the only option for obtaining support for housing

 5     available to those family members that you are aware of?

 6        A.   Your Honours, every professional serviceman who did not have the

 7     accommodation taken care of for their family, be it in Republika Srpska

 8     or the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, was entitled to compensation for

 9     accommodation.

10        Q.   And who paid this compensation?

11        A.   The Army of Yugoslavia for all members of the 30th Personnel

12     Centre.

13        Q.   Later on, in your testimony, there was a discussion about the

14     six-month period when the members of the 30th Personnel Centre did not

15     receive their salaries.  You explained that at a later date, all payments

16     due were eventually made, and I just want to make sure I understand what

17     you are saying.  When you refer to "all payments due," does that include

18     the payments that were due for that six-month period?  Were those payment

19     eventually paid?

20        A.   Your Honours, talking about the six-month period towards the end

21     of 1993 or the beginning of 1994, I'd like to say that we did not receive

22     salaries.  However, subsequently, a decision was made, I don't know on

23     what basis this was done, that all the areas were subsequently paid

24     arrears that were due to us.  I'm not going to reason why this had

25     happened, what was the basis for that, was that because of the sanctions.

Page 2490

 1     I'm just talking about facts.  I'm not getting into any reasons for why

 2     this happened.

 3        Q.   On page 52 of the transcript today, there was a discussion about

 4     rank and insignia, and then the ranks that members of the 30th Personnel

 5     Centre received.  This is a discussion, for example, at page 52, lines 15

 6     to 17.  And in those lines, you said the following:  "The ranks were

 7     confirmed by the Army of Yugoslavia.  Once you received the order, you

 8     also received the rank."

 9             If you can bear with me for a moment.  Yeah, that's correct.

10             My question for you is:  What kind of order were you referring

11     to?

12        A.   Your Honours, as far as I know, every promotion order has to be

13     published in the official military Gazette; and based on the excerpt from

14     the Official Gazette, you are then entitled to a higher salary.

15        Q.   For example, when you were promoted during the period of your

16     service with the Army of Republika Srpska, where were your promotion

17     orders published?

18        A.   Your Honours, as far as I can remember, it had to be published in

19     the official military Gazette of the Army of Yugoslavia.

20        Q.   And again, just so the record is clear, who would have issued

21     such an order to members of the 30th Personnel Centre?

22        A.   Your Honours, first of all, I don't understand what it means when

23     you say who issued those orders.  I don't know who the order issuer was.

24        Q.   I'm sorry, my question was not clear.  What army, for example,

25     would have issued the orders for your promotion at that time?

Page 2491

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon, the witness, at line 23 of page 68

 2     says:  "Your Honours, as far as I can remember, it had to be published in

 3     the official military Gazette of the Army of Yugoslavia."

 4             Which army would have issued that, Mr. Saxon?

 5             MR. SAXON:  I'll take Your Honour's point, and I'll move on then.

 6        Q.   You mention, at page 53, lines 22 through 24, that if an officer

 7     of the -- if an officer assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre is promoted

 8     by the Army of Republika Srpska, in order to receive the higher salary,

 9     the rank had to be confirmed through the 30th Personnel Centre.

10             So, in your knowledge and experience, who had the last word on

11     promotions of persons attached to the 30th Personnel Centre?

12        A.   Your Honours, this is rather simple.  We received salaries from

13     the Army of Yugoslavia.  And in a rather theoretical term, if somebody

14     was promoted, until the moment the promotion was confirmed by the Army of

15     Yugoslavia, nothing came out of it.  One could have said that he had been

16     promoted three ranks up, but until they received a confirmation of that

17     promotion from the Army of Yugoslavia, nothing would come out of it.

18     Nothing happened.

19        Q.   At page 55, line 11 of today's LiveNote, you said that:  "I was

20     personally never promoted by the Army of Republika Srpska."

21             So my question is then:  How did you receive your promotions

22     while you were serving with the Army of Republika Srpska?

23        A.   Your Honours, as for my promotions, as far as I know, when a

24     proposal was submitted for promotion after three years of having held one

25     rank, through the 30th Personnel Centre, I would receive an excerpt from

Page 2492

 1     the military Official Gazette of the Army of Yugoslavia bearing the date

 2     as of which I was promoted into higher rank, and that was that.

 3        Q.   And what was the significance, please, of this period of three

 4     years?

 5        A.   Your Honours, as I sit here today, I can't give you the exact

 6     period of time for each officer before they could be promoted, three

 7     years or four years.  It depended on the rank.  But I know for certain

 8     that a second lieutenant who had graduated from the military academy

 9     would be promoted after a year and would become lieutenant.

10             I'm not talking about special promotions.  Special promotions

11     were carried out after a shorter period of time.  I'm talking about

12     regular promotions.

13        Q.   So then, for example, your promotion to captain, was that a

14     regular promotion that you received in the Army of Yugoslavia?

15        A.   Your Honours, as far as I know, this was regular promotion, and I

16     believe that the period that you had to spend holding one rank was three

17     years.  I personally believe that that is how it was.

18        Q.   At page 39, lines 39 -- excuse me, page 39, lines 19 to 21 of

19     today's LiveNote, you said that the 30th Personnel Centre had nothing to

20     do with some reservists in the Army Republika Srpska.  Can you explain

21     what you meant by that?

22        A.   Your Honours, in addition to these persons who belonged to the

23     30th Personnel Centre, which is something that we have discussed in great

24     deal, the Army of Republika Srpska had its own reserve.  Later, it had

25     its own NCOs, officers.  They were referred to colloquially as Karadzic's

Page 2493

 1     officers, those who were trained during the war.

 2             Those persons, let me tell you straightaway, were also the

 3     receiving salaries from the budget of Republika Srpska.  As far as I

 4     remember, it was 50 German mark for a private, an ordinary soldier; 60

 5     for an NCO; and 70 for a higher ranking officer.  But they had nothing to

 6     do with the 30th Personnel Centre.

 7             As for the 30th Personnel Centre, it was in charge of those

 8     persons, just to make this perfectly clear, who up to until the war in

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina had already been serving as professional JNA soldiers,

10     servicemen.

11             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

13             Judge?

14                           Questioned by the Court:

15             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a few questions to

16     ask you, so that we can clarify the administrative situation at the time,

17     your administrative situation when the war broke out in

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19             From an administrative point of view, in the army, how did you

20     move from the Yugoslav Army to the Army of Republika Srpska?  Who made

21     that decision?

22        A.   Your Honour, I had been a JNA officer, for example; and then the

23     decision was taken to establish the Army Republika Srpska.  I

24     automatically became an officer of the Army of Republika Srpska.

25             As for my salary and all of the entitlements that we discussed, I

Page 2494

 1     was still receiving all of those from Belgrade.

 2             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] Very well.

 3             So, in fact, the decision was automatic.  You were not asked your

 4     opinion about it, i.e., whether you wanted to stay within the Yugoslav

 5     Army or whether you wanted to become a member of the Army Republika

 6     Srpska?

 7        A.   Your Honour, at the time, persons who were born in

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina who for the most part were Serbs who remained.  I'm

 9     not denying the fact that all of the members born in Serbia were

10     transferred by planes including the soldiers at the time, and lest I

11     should omit anything, and that's how the Army of Republika Srpska was

12     established at the time in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13             Just for you to understand better, during the war, I personally,

14     if that's what you are asking me, on several occasions asked to be

15     transferred to the VJ.  Why?

16             I apologise.  Are we in private session?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are in open session.

18             May the Chamber please move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

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Page 2496

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 4             I'll have to repeat what I said now that we are in open session.

 5     Just to say, to remind you again as I said to you yesterday, you are not

 6     supposed to discuss the case with anybody during the break until you were

 7     excused from testifying.

 8             We will adjourn the court now and we'll start again tomorrow

 9     morning at 9.00 in the same courtroom, courtroom II.  Okay.

10             Court adjourned.

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.38 p.m.

12                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day of

13                           December 2008, at 9.00 a.m.

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