Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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 1                           Thursday, 11 December 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.  Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Could we have appearances

12     for today.  Starting with the Prosecution, please.

13             MR. SAXON:  Good morning, Mr. President, good morning, Your

14     Honours.  Dan Saxon for the Prosecution, together with

15     Ms. Carmela Javier.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  And for the Defence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

18     morning to all.  On behalf of Mr. Perisic, Milos Androvic, Tina Drolec,

19     our legal assistants.  Daniela Tasic, our case manager and Mr.

20     Gregor Guy-Smith and Mr. November Lukic as Defence counsel.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much Mr. Lukic.  Morning,

22     Mr. Witness, morning, I hope you had a good sleep and well rested.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good morning to you,

24     first of all.  Everything is fine.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Just to reminds you that you

Page 2498

 1     are still bounds by the declaration that you made at the beginning of

 2     your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

 3     truth.  Good.  Judge.

 4                           WITNESS:  WITNESS MP-005 [Resumed]

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6                           Questioned by the Court:  [Continued]

 7             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation]  Good morning, Witness.

 8     Yesterday we concluded our work on the issue on how members of Yugoslav

 9     Army were transferred towards the Army of Republika Srpska and you

10     testified that the only criteria applying was the origin of the army

11     members, those who came from Bosnia were automatically sent or

12     transferred to the Army of Republika Srpska.  Is that what you said?  Is

13     that correct?

14        A.    Your Honours, this is a very simple situation.  When we say that

15     certain people were assigned to certain units it's not like those people

16     went to Belgrade and then back to Bosnia.  They were in Bosnia, that's

17     what I'm trying to explain, because when you say assigned that means that

18     someone from Belgrade was appointed.  They were in Bosnia already and

19     they simply remained.  For the most part, they were ethnic Serbs.

20             At the time, which was quite logical, ethnic Croat officers and

21     Muslim officers were leaving the army.  Banja Luka itself was already

22     surrounded and remained that way until a corridor was created.

23     Therefore, one couldn't leave and that was my situation.

24             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would also like to

25     ask another question, but maybe we should move into private session.

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 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

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20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

23                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

24        Q.   Sir, these same questions put to you by Her Honour, Judge Picard,

25     you also replied in the case against Mr. Milosevic, I would like to read

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 1     now the questions and the answers that you responded that day.  Page

 2     24692, lines 22.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  We have it in e-court, Your Honours,

 4     perhaps we could place this on e-court.  This was in the open session.

 5     It's document 1D002947.  In e-court it's page 70.  Perhaps that would

 6     make it easier also for the interpreters to follow.

 7        Q.   I'm reading question, I'm going to read the English translation

 8     very slowly from Mr. Milosevic:

 9             [In English] "All right.  Did anybody issue you orders and order

10     you to join up with the Army Republika Srpska?"

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, where are you reading?

12             MR. LUKIC:  Line 22 and next page.

13             Answer:  "Up until then I was a member an officer of the Yugoslav

14     People's Army.  Now, when the Army of Republika Srpska was established, I

15     happened to find myself in the region and based on those circumstances, I

16     had to act accordingly.  To tell you quite frankly, I wasn't one of those

17     officer who left the country at the sound of the first bullet being shot.

18     At any rate, we went through military training for the peacetime and for

19     the wartime.  And at that point in the time, I still sincerely believed

20     that Yugoslavia would be a state of common to us all."

21             Then question:  "Yes, I understand you on that score.  You

22     yourself said a moment ago that for the most part it was Muslims and

23     Croats who stepped down from the JNA and left to join their own armies in

24     their own republics.  Did anybody order you to stay in the Army of

25     Republika Srpska once it was established?  You could have left, just like

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 1     they had left; isn't that right?"

 2             Answer:  "At that time, I could have perhaps left.  But as I say,

 3     this was a risky business.  It was dangerous too.  And at that time,

 4     Banja Luka was closed off and even if I had wanted to leave, I was not

 5     able to do so.  But let me state again:  The reason I was there was as I

 6     explained it a moment ago."

 7             Question:

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How far are you going to go.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Just one more because I didn't want to put out of

10     context, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Question:  "Yes, because you believed in Yugoslavia?"

13             Your answer:  "Yes.

14             [Interpretation] Just one moment I read all of this to you just

15     to put the question.  Do you recall your testimony in the case that you

16     previously testified in.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I do remember.

18     May I explain, please?

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Now, I'm going to put the next question to you.  At that time you

21     stayed in the Army of Republika Srpska because you wanted to stay because

22     you believed in Yugoslavia; is that correct?

23        A.   Your Honours, I believed in Yugoslavia, but not in some -- well,

24     it's not there anymore.  Where is Yugoslavia now?  I did believe.  Excuse

25     me, please.  And today I can tell you that I would not have regretted

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 1     giving my life for that SFRY, but you when you put your question, can you

 2     please tell me the circumstances and the facts in which the Army of

 3     Republika Srpska was.  That is no longer Yugoslavia.  Tell me sincerely,

 4     from my point of view, from my perspective, all these matters about who

 5     is a Muslim, who is a Serb, who is a Croat, had a Muslim defended a Serb

 6     and a Serb a Croat and a Croat had defended a Slovenian, we would not be

 7     here saying anything today.  And there is another very high ranking

 8     officer, a superior officer here of that army, and let me tell you, I can

 9     sincerely ask him whether the oaths of those officers were the greatest

10     lie that was told over the past 40 years, those 40 years.

11        Q.   You defended that you would defend the constitutional order of

12     the Socialist [Realtime transcript read in error, "social list."] Federal

13     Republic of Yugoslavia; is that correct?

14        A.   Well, yes and you can see how we defended.

15        Q.   Just one more question about what you have just said.  Just one

16     more question.  After 1995 Banja Luka was in the a closed city any more;

17     is that correct?

18        A.   After 1995?  After the war of course it was not.

19        Q.   And you remained a member of that army; is that correct?  You

20     don't have to tell us until when, just tell us yes or no?

21        A.   Yes, at that time I was still a member of the army.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And one more.  Page 16, Your Honours, line 3 it says

23     FRY and I said that the witness had given an oath to the Socialist

24     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, socialist is misspelled there.  "Social

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 1     list."

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Just one more clarification, today when Judge Picard asked you

 4     about the 30th Personnel Centre, question on page 5, just one moment,

 5     please.  The question on page 5, line 14 was, did you submit reports to

 6     anyone in the 30th Personnel Centre.  This is how I understood the

 7     question.  And the conclusion of Judge Picard was [In English] because

 8     you reported.

 9             [Interpretation] At any time during your service in the Army of

10     Republika Srpska, did you submit any report to the 30th Personnel Centre?

11        A.   You mean personally?

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   No, I did not.

14        Q.   Are you aware whether any other officer, your colleague from the

15     30th Personnel Centre submitted any reports to the 30th Personnel Centre?

16        A.   Yes.  For example, there was a plan of the replenishment of

17     units.

18        Q.   These are personnel status matters; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, based on which orders on appointments are drafted, and

20     salaries are determined because except for other than rank, the person

21     also those be paid according to post.  This is the second item of the

22     salary categories.

23        Q.   So these are matters that relate to the salaries that are paid

24     out?

25        A.   Yes, but the person who is paying you has to know where you are,

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 1     what you are doing, which post are you appointed to, the salary category.

 2     I mean, I'm not a financial person so I do not wish to get into those

 3     details.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Sir, thank you very much for

 5     answering my questions.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 7             Mr. Witness, this brings us to the end of your testimony.  May I

 8     just say thank you so much for taking the time to come and testify.  You

 9     are now excused.  You may stand down.  Will you please travel well back

10     home.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

14             MR. SAXON:  Your Honours, may we move into private session for a

15     moment.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber better please move into private

17     session.

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 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

12             MR. SAXON:  In private session I used the name of a witness and

13     my case manager has rightly informed me that the protective measures for

14     that witness and the other witness whose name was mentioned say that even

15     in the transcripts the pseudonym, only the pseudonym should appear and

16     should be used in these hearings.  So if the name of the witness could be

17     redacted even in the transcript that was for private session, it would be

18     grateful.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that the same name that was repeated by

20     Mr. Guy-Smith.

21             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I am afraid that it was.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You took the cue.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I did indeed.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May we please have a redaction of that name in

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 1     those two places.  And is that all?

 2             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then do we stand adjourned to Monday, the -- is it

 4     the 15th?  At what time?  Sorry about this.  Monday the 15th at quarter

 5     past 2.00.  It will be in Courtroom I.  Court adjourned.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 9.54 a.m.

 7                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of

 8                           December 2008, at 2.15 p.m.

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