1 Thursday, 11 December 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 courtroom. Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Could we have appearances
12 for today. Starting with the Prosecution, please.
13 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Mr. President, good morning, Your
14 Honours. Dan Saxon for the Prosecution, together with
15 Ms. Carmela Javier.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And for the Defence.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
18 morning to all. On behalf of Mr. Perisic, Milos Androvic, Tina Drolec,
19 our legal assistants. Daniela Tasic, our case manager and Mr.
20 Gregor Guy-Smith and Mr. November Lukic as Defence counsel.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much Mr. Lukic. Morning,
22 Mr. Witness, morning, I hope you had a good sleep and well rested.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good morning to you,
24 first of all. Everything is fine.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Just to reminds you that you
1 are still bounds by the declaration that you made at the beginning of
2 your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
3 truth. Good. Judge.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS MP-005 [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]
7 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
8 Yesterday we concluded our work on the issue on how members of Yugoslav
9 Army were transferred towards the Army of Republika Srpska and you
10 testified that the only criteria applying was the origin of the army
11 members, those who came from Bosnia
12 transferred to the Army of Republika Srpska. Is that what you said? Is
13 that correct?
14 A. Your Honours, this is a very simple situation. When we say that
15 certain people were assigned to certain units it's not like those people
16 went to Belgrade
17 what I'm trying to explain, because when you say assigned that means that
18 someone from Belgrade
19 they simply remained. For the most part, they were ethnic Serbs.
20 At the time, which was quite logical, ethnic Croat officers and
21 Muslim officers were leaving the army. Banja Luka itself was already
22 surrounded and remained that way until a corridor was created.
23 Therefore, one couldn't leave and that was my situation.
24 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would also like to
25 ask another question, but maybe we should move into private session.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 2500-2508 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
23 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
24 Q. Sir, these same questions put to you by Her Honour, Judge Picard,
25 you also replied in the case against Mr. Milosevic, I would like to read
1 now the questions and the answers that you responded that day. Page
2 24692, lines 22.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have it in e-court, Your Honours,
4 perhaps we could place this on e-court. This was in the open session.
5 It's document 1D002947. In e-court it's page 70. Perhaps that would
6 make it easier also for the interpreters to follow.
7 Q. I'm reading question, I'm going to read the English translation
8 very slowly from Mr. Milosevic:
9 [In English] "All right. Did anybody issue you orders and order
10 you to join up with the Army Republika Srpska?"
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, where are you reading?
12 MR. LUKIC: Line 22 and next page.
13 Answer: "Up until then I was a member an officer of the Yugoslav
14 People's Army. Now, when the Army of Republika Srpska was established, I
15 happened to find myself in the region and based on those circumstances, I
16 had to act accordingly. To tell you quite frankly, I wasn't one of those
17 officer who left the country at the sound of the first bullet being shot.
18 At any rate, we went through military training for the peacetime and for
19 the wartime. And at that point in the time, I still sincerely believed
20 that Yugoslavia
21 Then question: "Yes, I understand you on that score. You
22 yourself said a moment ago that for the most part it was Muslims and
23 Croats who stepped down from the JNA and left to join their own armies in
24 their own republics. Did anybody order you to stay in the Army of
25 Republika Srpska once it was established? You could have left, just like
1 they had left; isn't that right?"
2 Answer: "At that time, I could have perhaps left. But as I say,
3 this was a risky business. It was dangerous too. And at that time,
4 Banja Luka was closed off and even if I had wanted to leave, I was not
5 able to do so. But let me state again: The reason I was there was as I
6 explained it a moment ago."
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: How far are you going to go.
9 MR. LUKIC: Just one more because I didn't want to put out of
10 context, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
12 MR. LUKIC: Question: "Yes, because you believed in Yugoslavia
13 Your answer: "Yes.
14 [Interpretation] Just one moment I read all of this to you just
15 to put the question. Do you recall your testimony in the case that you
16 previously testified in.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I do remember.
18 May I explain, please?
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Now, I'm going to put the next question to you. At that time you
21 stayed in the Army of Republika Srpska because you wanted to stay because
22 you believed in Yugoslavia
23 A. Your Honours, I believed in Yugoslavia, but not in some -- well,
24 it's not there anymore. Where is Yugoslavia now? I did believe. Excuse
25 me, please. And today I can tell you that I would not have regretted
1 giving my life for that SFRY, but you when you put your question, can you
2 please tell me the circumstances and the facts in which the Army of
3 Republika Srpska was. That is no longer Yugoslavia. Tell me sincerely,
4 from my point of view, from my perspective, all these matters about who
5 is a Muslim, who is a Serb, who is a Croat, had a Muslim defended a Serb
6 and a Serb a Croat and a Croat had defended a Slovenian, we would not be
7 here saying anything today. And there is another very high ranking
8 officer, a superior officer here of that army, and let me tell you, I can
9 sincerely ask him whether the oaths of those officers were the greatest
10 lie that was told over the past 40 years, those 40 years.
11 Q. You defended that you would defend the constitutional order of
12 the Socialist [Realtime transcript read in error, "social list."] Federal
13 Republic of Yugoslavia
14 A. Well, yes and you can see how we defended.
15 Q. Just one more question about what you have just said. Just one
16 more question. After 1995 Banja Luka was in the a closed city any more;
17 is that correct?
18 A. After 1995? After the war of course it was not.
19 Q. And you remained a member of that army; is that correct? You
20 don't have to tell us until when, just tell us yes or no?
21 A. Yes, at that time I was still a member of the army.
22 Q. Thank you. And one more. Page 16, Your Honours, line 3 it says
23 FRY and I said that the witness had given an oath to the Socialist
24 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, socialist is misspelled there. "Social
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Just one more clarification, today when Judge Picard asked you
4 about the 30th Personnel Centre, question on page 5, just one moment,
5 please. The question on page 5, line 14 was, did you submit reports to
6 anyone in the 30th Personnel Centre. This is how I understood the
7 question. And the conclusion of Judge Picard was [In English] because
8 you reported.
9 [Interpretation] At any time during your service in the Army of
10 Republika Srpska, did you submit any report to the 30th Personnel Centre?
11 A. You mean personally?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. Are you aware whether any other officer, your colleague from the
15 30th Personnel Centre submitted any reports to the 30th Personnel Centre?
16 A. Yes. For example, there was a plan of the replenishment of
18 Q. These are personnel status matters; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, based on which orders on appointments are drafted, and
20 salaries are determined because except for other than rank, the person
21 also those be paid according to post. This is the second item of the
22 salary categories.
23 Q. So these are matters that relate to the salaries that are paid
25 A. Yes, but the person who is paying you has to know where you are,
1 what you are doing, which post are you appointed to, the salary category.
2 I mean, I'm not a financial person so I do not wish to get into those
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Sir, thank you very much for
5 answering my questions.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
7 Mr. Witness, this brings us to the end of your testimony. May I
8 just say thank you so much for taking the time to come and testify. You
9 are now excused. You may stand down. Will you please travel well back
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
14 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, may we move into private session for a
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber better please move into private
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 2515-2517 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Saxon.
12 MR. SAXON: In private session I used the name of a witness and
13 my case manager has rightly informed me that the protective measures for
14 that witness and the other witness whose name was mentioned say that even
15 in the transcripts the pseudonym, only the pseudonym should appear and
16 should be used in these hearings. So if the name of the witness could be
17 redacted even in the transcript that was for private session, it would be
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the same name that was repeated by
20 Mr. Guy-Smith.
21 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I am afraid that it was.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You took the cue.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: I did indeed.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we please have a redaction of that name in
1 those two places. And is that all?
2 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then do we stand adjourned to Monday, the -- is it
4 the 15th? At what time? Sorry about this. Monday the 15th at quarter
5 past 2.00. It will be in Courtroom I. Court adjourned.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 9.54 a.m.
7 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of
8 December 2008, at 2.15 p.m.