1 Thursday, 29 January 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom. Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Morning Your Honours. Good morning everyone in
8 and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor
9 versus Momcilo Perisic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Could we have appearances
11 for the day, starting with the Prosecution, please.
12 MR. THOMAS: Yes, good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
13 everybody in and around the courtroom. Firstly, Your Honours, our
14 apologies for the slight delay this morning our witness was placed in a
15 room nowhere near this courtroom, and it just took us a little while to
16 track him down.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.
18 MR. THOMAS: Mark Harmon, Barney Thomas, Bronagh McKenna,
19 Salvatore Cannata, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And for the Defence.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. And good
22 morning to everyone in the courtroom. For the Defence of Mr. Perisic
23 today in the courtroom we have Mr. Milos Androvic, Daniela Tasic,
24 Gregor Guy-Smith and Novak Lukic as his Defence.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Just before you call the
1 witness, a small administrative matter by way of corrigendum to the oral
2 decision that was given the other day on the deposition, just to say that
3 apparently during the deposition three questions -- on three occasions
4 the Defence objected to the Prosecution's questions. And just for the
5 record, just to say that after a careful review of the transcript, the
6 Trial Chamber overrules those objections.
7 Thank you so much. May you call the witness.
8 MR. THOMAS: That you have, Your Honours. The Prosecution calls
9 Major Overgard, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is he lost again?
11 MR. THOMAS: I was just thinking, Your Honours, I haven't
12 actually sighted him myself this morning. But apparently he has been
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you say so.
15 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, if I could just step outside and
16 make -- we have him. Thank you.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, sir.
19 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please make the declaration.
21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
22 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 WITNESS: THORBJORN OVERGARD
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may now be seated.
25 Mr. Thomas.
1 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Examination by Mr. Thomas:
3 Q. Major, can you begin please by giving us your full name and date
4 of birth?
5 A. My name is Thorbjorn Overgard, and I'm a major in the Norwegian
6 air force.
7 Q. Your date of birth, Major?
8 A. 13th of April, 1958.
9 Q. Sir, did you testify about certain matters related to Sarajevo
10 and the Dragomir Milosevic case?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 MR. THOMAS: I wonder, Your Honours, if we could please have
13 Exhibit 65 ter 09386 on the screen. And Your Honours, I should have
14 signalled Major Overgard is a 92 ter witness.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MR. THOMAS:
17 Q. Major, you'll see there at the top of the page that the testimony
18 is dated the 18th of January, 2007.
19 MR. THOMAS: I wonder if we could turn over the next page,
20 please, Madam Registrar. And scroll down and the next page, please.
21 Q. Now, major, do you recognise that as a transcript of your
22 testimony given in the Dragomir Milosevic case on the 18th
23 of January 2007?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you have the opportunity to review that transcript of
1 testimony yesterday?
2 A. I did yesterday, yes.
3 Q. And is it true and correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And if you were asked the same questions this morning, would you
6 answer in the same way?
7 A. Yes, I would.
8 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. If that could please be
9 tendered as a Prosecution exhibit.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: From which page to which -- from this page to
12 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, the entire exhibit is the redacted
13 version of the transcript for that day. The pages themselves have been
14 notified in the 92 notice which has been filed with the Chamber. The
15 non-relevant parts have been redacted so that all that remains is the
16 relevant testimony of Major Overgard.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. That exhibit is admitted. May
18 it please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P479.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 Q. Major, did you also testify on the following day, the 19th of
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 MR. THOMAS: Could we please have, Your Honours, Exhibit
2 65 ter 09387 on the screen, please.
3 Q. Major, again we can see the date of Friday the 19th of January on
4 the top of the page.
5 MR. THOMAS: If we could please go to the next page,
6 Your Honours.
7 Q. And do you see there the commencement of your cross-examination?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. Again, Major, did you have the opportunity to review this
10 transcript of your testimony yesterday?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Is it true and correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And if you were asked the same questions today, would you answer
15 in the same way?
16 A. Yes, I will.
17 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. Again if that redacted
18 transcript could please be tendered as a Prosecution exhibit.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is tendered, and it is admitted. May it please
20 be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P480.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you,
24 Madam Registrar.
25 Q. Now, in addition to the two transcripts, Major, did you also
1 earlier provide a statement to OTP, Office of the Prosecutor
2 investigators in April 1996?
3 A. Yes, I did, a couple of times I think I gave in Bura.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MR. THOMAS: Can we begin please with 65 ter 0388 [sic], please.
6 Q. Major, do you recognise -- wait for the -- Major, do you
7 recognise that as the statement that you provided to OTP officials in
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Again, did you review the contents of that statement yesterday?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it true and correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Again, if you were asked about the same matters referred to in
15 that statement, would you answer in the same way?
16 A. Yes, I will.
17 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. If that statement, which a
18 redacted statement could also be tendered as a Prosecution exhibit.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. What 65 ter number did you give
21 MR. THOMAS: It is 09388, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: 09388. May it please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P481.
24 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you, Madam
1 Q. Finally, Major, in preparation for your testimony in the
2 D. Milosevic case, did you provide some limited further information to
3 OTP investigators?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. THOMAS: If we could please have, Your Honours, 65 ter
6 number 09389 on the screen.
7 Q. Major, do you recognise that as a record of the remarks that you
8 made prior to your testimony in the D. Milosevic case?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Again, did you have the opportunity to review that document
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are the contents true and correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And if you were asked about those matters again today, would your
16 answers be the same?
17 A. They would be the same answers.
18 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Major. Your Honours, could we please
19 tender that as an exhibit also.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P482.
23 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, if I may be permitted, I have a short
24 summary of the testimony and remarks contained in that statement which
25 I'd like to read into the record at this stage.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.
2 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Major Overgard was posted to Sarajevo as a United Nations
4 Military Observer, UNMO, during the period from late October 1994 to
5 1 May, 1995
6 held by VRS forces, he was posted to Hrasnica within territory held by
7 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He remained there until 1 May, 1995
8 During his time in Hrasnica, Major Overgard and his team
9 investigated many shelling and sniping incidents. During his time there,
10 there were casualties almost every day, most of them civilian. The
11 greatest casualties occurred during November and December, 1994, and
12 April 1995.
13 Of all the shelling and sniping investigations undertaken by
14 Major Overgard and his team during the six month period in Hrasnica,
15 identified VRS-held territory as the source of fire. Most of the
16 shelling incidents investigated by Major Overgard involved civilian
17 victims. All the incidents of sniping investigated by Major Overgard
18 involved civilian victims.
19 The VRS had mortar positions between Ilidza and Blazuj and in the
20 area of the Lukavica barracks. It was mainly from these two directions
21 that Hrasnica, including the areas of Butmir and Sokolovic were shelled.
22 The centre of Hrasnica was a residential civilian area with no military
24 Sniping from Butmir to came from Ilidza and the Famos factory.
25 There was regular shelling and sniping of civilians using the road by
1 forces of the VRS and Ilidza. There was also a lot of sniping of
2 civilians using a bridge at Butmir by those VRS forces.
3 Major Overgard estimates that during his time in Hrasnica, 30
4 to 40 civilians were killed as a result of the sniping and shelling
5 incidents he investigated alone.
6 Thank you, Your Honours, and finally there are some matters
7 raised in the 92 ter materials that have been provided which I'd like to
8 ask some questions on to clarify. They fall into two categories.
9 Firstly a number of occasions which I'd like Major Overgard to
10 demonstrate for us on a map; and secondly to clarify some comments he has
11 made about air-bombs.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
13 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. I wonder, Your Honours, if
14 we could please have Exhibit P439 up on the screen. And it is map number
15 8 in the court binder.
16 Q. Major, in your testimony and in your statements, you mention a
17 number of different locations in Sarajevo, locations where you were
18 posted, locations where civilians were targeted by VRS forces, and the
19 location of VRS forces. And what I'd like to do with you is to just
20 identify some of those locations you speak of in your previous testimony,
21 and in your statements, and identify those on this map.
22 What you see here is a map of Sarajevo. What we can do with the
23 technology that we have is to enlarge this map.
24 MR. THOMAS: And Your Honours, if we could just, thank you,
25 enlarge the -- if we could scroll down just a fraction and scroll to the
1 left just a fraction. A little more.
2 Q. First of all, Major, do you recognise what is shown on the map?
3 A. Yes, it's from the airport and south Hrasnica area in the foot of
4 Igman mountain.
5 Q. All right. First of all the airport that you just mentioned
6 which is referred to in your statement, is that -- I wonder if
7 Mr. Usher -- Madam Usher, if we could provide the Major with the
8 electronic pen. If you could just draw a line along the runway of the
9 airport, please?
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Thank you, and maybe mark that with the letter A.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Can you make that A a little bit clearer.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Thank you. Now, first of all, you mentioned that your -- when
16 you first arrived in Sarajevo
17 a location known to UNMOs as Sierra Whiskey 1?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you mark on that map where Sierra Whiskey 1 was?
20 A. If I'm correct I believe it was in this area they had a team
22 Q. All right. Could you mark that please with SW1.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. All right. You say in your testimony that you were there for a
25 period of ten days or so before you were moved to a second location,
1 Sierra Sierra 2?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you mark, please, for us where Sierra Sierra 2 was?
4 A. River comes down, okay, so here.
5 Q. And the settlement in which we see Sierra Sierra 2, is that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Hrasnica was territory held by the ABiH?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the area you've marked as Sierra Whiskey 1 was territory held
11 by the VRS; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, it was.
13 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, could we first produce that marked map
14 as a Prosecution exhibit.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted. May it please be given an
16 exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P440 [sic].
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you,
20 Madam Registrar. Sorry the exhibit number? 440.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is 440 or 483.
22 THE REGISTRAR: It's 483, I apologise, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 MR. THOMAS: Could we please go back to a blank version of the
25 map which is P439, Your Honours.
1 Q. Major, you then mention a number of areas where civilians were
2 targeted or at least shelled and sniped by VRS forces. The first of
3 those that I'd like to talk about is the Igman Road. Can you draw a line
4 for us please, along the Igman Road?
5 A. The road comes here.
6 Q. Is there an area along that road that was more susceptible to
7 shelling and sniping than any other part of the road?
8 A. Well, the lower part here, you can see from this big turn up here
9 and down longwards, there were direct missile contacts to the Ilidza area
10 there was heavy shelling, sniping, and shooting to that area.
11 Q. All right. Would you please mark that line with IR.
12 A. [Marks] Okay.
13 Q. And is this the road that you also refer to in your testimony or
14 statements as "the blue road" or the "convoy road"?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. You also describe in addition to Hrasnica being shelled and
17 sniped, an area called Butmir?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you see that on the map?
20 A. Yes. Has to be, it's a bit here, so it has to be this area here.
21 Q. All right. Could you mark that with a B, please.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. You talk about the bridge and civilians being shot on the bridge
24 as they entered Sarajevo
25 A. I believe the bridge is the one marked here.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. You also mention an area that was targeted called Sokolovic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you see that on the map?
6 A. I think it's more to the right. I'm not sure anymore about the
7 precise location of Sokolovic.
8 Q. When you say to the right, to the right of where?
9 A. The right on the map. The right on the side of the airport.
10 Q. To the right of the airport at some point?
11 A. Yeah, yeah.
12 Q. All right. Thank you. Could you circle Hrasnica for us?
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And maybe put an H next to that.
15 A. [Marks]
16 MR. THOMAS: And Your Honours, could we please tender that as a
17 Prosecution exhibit.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's so admitted. May it please be given an
19 exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that is Exhibit P484.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you,
23 Madam Registrar. And to a blank version of the map one more time,
24 please. P439.
25 Q. This time, Major, I want to talk about the VRS positions that you
1 referred to in your testimony and in your statements. Firstly, you
2 describe the source of a lot of the shelling and sniping as being Ilidza.
3 Can you mark Ilidza for us on that map?
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you. You also describe an area called Blazuj.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do we see that on the map as well?
8 A. We can say Blazuj is this area here, where the team location was
9 for Sierra Whiskey 1.
10 Q. Thank you. You also describe some sniping as coming from the
11 Famos factory, or the area of the Famos factory?
12 A. Yes, it was this area.
13 Q. Is the Famos factory actually that collection of dark buildings?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. It is?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You mention also firing from the Lukavica barracks?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do we see those on the map, or do we need to move the map?
20 A. They are somewhere in this area. I do not remember the exact
22 Q. All right. Could you -- we'll need to mark those so that we can
23 refer to those later. Could you please put an LB next to that line that
24 you've just drawn?
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Can you please put an F next to the marking around the Famos
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Can you please put an I around the marking you've drawn to
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. And a B please around Blazuj. Thank you.
8 A. [Marks]
9 MR. THOMAS: And, Your Honours, can we please tender that map as
10 a Prosecution exhibit.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours that will be Exhibit P485.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 Q. Finally, Major, during your testimony in Dragomir Milosevic, you
17 spoke of modified air-bombs. Air-bombs with rocket motors attached to
18 them that were used by the VRS. Firstly, can you tell us which forces or
19 from where, which VRS forces used those air-bombs?
20 A. I experienced one of these bombs during my time in Hrasnica, and
21 it came from Ilidza and into a town 300 metres from our accommodation in
23 Q. All right. Thank you, Major, those are all the question that I
24 have for you at this stage. My learned friend for the Defence may have
25 some questions for you if you kindly wait there.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Thomas.
2 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Overgard. My name is
5 Novak Lukic, and I am the Defence counsel for Mr. Perisic; and on behalf
6 of his Defence now, I will put some questions to you.
7 First of all, I'd like to ask you about your service and what
8 kind of jobs you did while you were in Sarajevo. If I understood
9 correctly, you were part of the UNMO team in Sarajevo in charge of
10 investigating and establishing the sites where missiles fell including
11 infantry weapons and air-bombs, modified air-bombs; correct?
12 A. Yes, I can say also mortars, mortar fire, artillery. Missiles
13 are, you can say, kind of guided missile, and all the rest are bombs.
14 Q. Earlier you attended a three week course in Finland for these --
15 to prepare for these activities; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And in the course among others, you learned about the analysis of
18 the matters or issues that you were later to carry out or conduct, and
19 this included the effects or consequences or impacts of these
20 projectiles; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Before this course during your military service, you had never
23 been involved in criminal investigations, as it were, if I may put it in
24 general terms?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. When you arrived in the former Yugoslavia, you spent a few days
2 in Zagreb
3 about six days, but this course did not relate to this particular area of
4 investigation; correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Do you recall what type of instruments did you have at your
7 disposal when you would arrive at a site to investigate an incident?
8 A. Mostly we always had the compass to give the exact direction
9 where we believe the mortar or the artillery piece came from. It is a
10 summary of what you find when what angle hits the ground with, which side
11 of the crater the splints have gone into the ground, and you can find out
12 from where it fired.
13 Q. As a layperson, I'd like to ask you this, is there any particular
14 instrument that can be used to establish the angle from which a
15 projectile or a shell is arriving?
16 A. Not as I know that there are anything to give exact position, but
17 you can give a direction and from the angle also if you are very good at
18 it, find what distance approximately it's fired from.
19 Q. Could you tell us on the basis of what you established the
20 distance from which the shell was fired?
21 A. No, I can't give the exact distance. I only in my reports
22 pointed at directions, and I never had the education to find correct
24 Q. Was there anyone on your team who was an expert on determining
25 exactly the distance and not just the direction?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And when you decided on the direction that you supposed that that
3 was where the projectile had come from, this was just in general terms.
4 You could never establish with any kind of precision where it exactly
5 came from; correct?
6 A. That's correct. If you are not hearing outgoing bang, from that
7 when it lands, you can say from where, but that was very seldom.
8 Q. For my better understanding, could you just explain to us what
9 was more seldom, was it more seldom that you could see where a projectile
10 had been fired from; is that correct?
11 A. Very seldom that we heard the outgoing, you could say bang then
12 and then could also identify a landing, an explosion from an artillery
13 piece or a mortar piece. But it happened when we was close to the
14 confrontation line against Ilidza, and we could hear from the hill-side
15 behind the barracks in Ilidza; and we could hear come from there, and
16 then it landed somewhere inside our AOR. And AOR is area of
18 Q. You were frequently on site for these investigations together
19 with members of the local authorities, primarily the police, and I mean
20 the authorities of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
21 A. We had also -- we worked together also with them but we did our
22 investigation, they did theirs, there were no cooperation but they were
23 given our conclusions and we always two UNMOs doing the investigation
24 together so there should be -- should not be any misunderstandings.
25 Q. My question was not whether you worked together, but whether you
1 were on site at the same time, whether you could observe how they did
2 their job, whether they were there at the same time? Just that, yes or
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did the members of those teams who conducted investigations have
6 some instruments that you did not have in their investigations?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did they ever complain to you about your lack of expertise,
10 A. Never.
11 Q. You wanted to offer them some expert assistance because you felt
12 that they were not as well trained as you were; correct?
13 A. No, we did not offer them assistance. We gave them the results
14 of our investigation.
15 Q. But you thought that among them, there were also people who were
16 policemen, not necessarily professional, not necessarily professional
17 policemen, but people who had just been put through a course for
19 A. Yes, that's correct. We found that.
20 Q. Do you agree with me, Mr. Overgard, that the most reliable method
21 in conducting an investigation properly, regardless of what the cause of
22 the accident is, is to leave everything as it is until the sight can be
23 thoroughly reviewed and observed?
24 A. Yeah, can't do too much damage to a crater from an artillery
25 piece or a mortar. You are just doing the observations. We might also
1 find the tail of the artillery piece in the crater, but that's all.
2 Q. Is crater analysis the only way that you can determine where a
3 projectile had come from, the direction?
4 A. Yes, when it comes to artillery mortar firing, that's the only
6 Q. Is it relevant in determining the direction whether a projectile
7 had hit a hard surface or the ground or a wall or some other object?
8 A. Yes, of course. If it hits a wall, you can only see the hole,
9 and we will not have anything to investigate from to determine where it
10 come from. It has to hit the ground whether it is hard ground or soft
11 ground, it's real not as long as the detonation has been there when it
12 hits, we will find a way.
13 Q. So if I understood correctly, the direction can only be
14 determined if the crater is in the ground regardless of what type of
15 surface it is?
16 A. Yes, that is for sure. If it hits a roof, for instance, it might
17 not detonate; and from the angle when it stops in the roof or it goes
18 into some furniture inside, you can also find the direction without --
19 not on the ground, but that is when it's detonation has been there, it is
20 hard to find if you are not on the ground.
21 Q. You also took advantage of eye-witnesses who would provide you
22 information about where they think the projectile had come from?
23 A. Yeah, we took statements from witnesses. Sometimes it was, I
24 can't give you numbers, but there's been a few occasions we had witnesses
25 telling us from where it was fired. Especially is that when it comes to
1 sniping we had to rely on witnesses because we had to know what direction
2 the victim faced when it was hit, then to find out on the body from where
3 the shot has been fired.
4 Q. Can you remember, speaking of the sniping incidents that you
5 investigated, whether you -- when you arrived on site whether there were
6 dead bodies there or whether you only could look at the dead bodies in
7 the morgue?
8 A. We had both -- incidents of both. We have sometimes we came
9 early enough to see the bodies before they were transported to the
10 morgue, but we never inspected them before they came to the morgue.
11 Q. I suppose that witness statements were interpreted to you by the
12 local interpreters who were in your team; correct?
13 A. Yes, we had local interpreters in teams that always followed us.
14 Q. While you were on the Sarajevo
15 you actually ever on site at the moment when the incident occurred, you
17 A. No, not as I remember now.
18 Q. So, when you arrived on site, the witnesses would introduce
19 themselves and then you would take statements from them; correct?
20 A. Yes. If we -- we asked around if anybody saw what happened, and
21 we got witnesses in.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up the same
23 map on the screen. I believe it's P439, the blank exhibit. Could we
24 have that on the screen. And especially could we have the Hrasnica area
25 blown up.
1 A bit more, please. Very well, thank you.
2 Q. Could you please mark the building where your base was in
3 Hrasnica, if you could just give us a general idea or would you like this
4 to be blown up a bit more?
5 A. I think I'll manage. Let me see. We were somewhere around here.
6 Just in the [indiscernible].
7 Q. Would you please put a number 1 next to this mark?
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. We also know that the command post of the 4th Motorised Brigade
10 of the BH Army was in Hrasnica as well. Could you please show us if you
11 can where that location was?
12 A. They had a location, a HQ in a big building, I believe it is this
14 Q. Could you please mark that with a 2. Number 2.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. You also know that there was another command post there of a
17 BH Army unit of a lower level, which was also in Hrasnica; correct?
18 Would you please mark that spot as well?
19 A. There was a company in the area of the confrontation line have to
20 be in somewhere here in this area here.
21 Q. Could you please mark that with a 3.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Do you know that there was -- that the command post of the
24 155th Motorised Brigade of the BH Army was in Butmir, which was not too
25 far from your location?
1 A. I know that they said that they should be there, but I never was
2 there myself.
3 Q. The locations that you marked, are those institutions, as it
4 were, the HQs, they were on civilian premises; correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. In view of the fact that you had meetings with a commander of the
7 4th Motorised Brigade, did you know or do you know now how many men that
8 brigade numbered?
9 A. I don't remember now.
10 Q. If I were to tell you that it numbered anywhere between 3.000 to
11 3.500 men, would that help jar your memory?
12 A. No, it will not because I never saw so many soldiers in Hrasnica.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would please like this map to be
15 entered into evidence.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted into evidence. May it please be
17 given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D33.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. During your work did you have any contacts with the corps HQ in
23 A. I don't remember now.
24 Q. A few moments ago, at the request of my learned colleague
25 Mr. Thomas, you marked the road leading to Mount Igman
1 whether that road was protected by BH Army units?
2 A. There were some positions and -- in that area, but you see where
3 I marked the area 3, that was the area where they had some positions and
4 there was some fire extension against Ilidza area. That was the only
5 position. The road up to Igman, I drove it a lot of times myself, and
6 never had -- there were no positions protecting the road. It's late in
7 1995, the French brigade had a position in the lower part of the road.
8 Q. Would you agree with me that Mount Igman
9 the BH Army during the conflict?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And would you also agree that the Igman Road was a line that
12 connected Sarajevo
13 the control of BH?
14 A. It might be so, yes, they got their delivery of food and so on
15 coming down that road. It came to Hrasnica and somehow they managed to
16 get it into Sarajevo
17 Q. Everything that came from Igman went via Hrasnica, right, towards
18 the parts of Sarajevo
19 A. I have to believe that, yes.
20 Q. You also know that all military assistance and aid, military
21 equipment, personnel arrived only along that road to Sarajevo to meet the
22 needs of the BH Army; right?
23 A. I think if they had equipment, people, they were walking down the
24 mountain all over, I believe.
25 Q. And then again went via Hrasnica; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please still have this map
3 here. Another copy, because I'd like to ask the witness to mark
4 something else, if he remembers, while the map is still there.
5 Q. At one point you saw a tunnel being dug by the Butmir airport.
6 You saw that with your very own eyes. Could that be marked on this map,
7 the place where you saw the tunnel being dug?
8 A. Yeah. I just can give a general area and had to be somewhere
9 here. I don't know the exact position anymore.
10 Q. Could you please place number 1 there.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. When you saw that something was being dug there at that locality,
13 the local authorities told you that they were digging something there for
14 water supply purposes; right?
15 A. Yes, there was some explanation; it could not be correct, so we
16 just waited when inspector regularly to see what was being done there.
17 But we were not, never allowed to stop in that area.
18 Q. They did not let you stop in that area?
19 A. No, they didn't.
20 Q. When I say "they" --
21 A. So the -- there was people in civilian clothes mostly doing the
22 work there, but they didn't want us to stop.
23 Q. When I say "they," I mean the authorities of the Federation of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Later on you heard that a tunnel had been dug underneath the
2 airport and that that was the route that was used for bringing people and
3 equipment to the area that was under the control of the BH Army; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. While we still have map there, so that we don't have to go back
6 to that again, do you see Kovaci on the map? Could you please mark that
7 with a number 2, or would you like us to zoom in on it?
8 A. A bit more in.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's going to delete.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, if this map will be
11 admitted into evidence, then I will ask for it to be enlarged.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then that map is admitted into evidence.
13 May it please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this marked map will be
15 Exhibit D35, and I would like to state for a record that I stated a
16 different number for the previous document, that should be D35 exhibit.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't quite understand what you are saying,
18 Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: The Exhibit number assigned to the previous
20 document tendered by Mr. Lukic was given a number D33, where instead, it
21 should have been given a number Exhibit D34. And the current map will
22 then be Exhibit D35.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to have the same
25 map, but could it please be enlarged a bit, rather the Hrasnica area.
1 The left hand part of the map, that's what I'd like to deal with now.
2 Could it go up a bit -- no, it's fine, thanks.
3 Q. I would just like us to mark two more locations Kovaci or rather
4 the place where you saw the BH Army mortars, I'd like to ask you
5 something about that, so could you show us where that was, where the four
6 mortars were?
7 A. Well, there were some houses close, it has to be in this area
8 here. Doesn't look ...
9 Q. I think that this will do.
10 A. In this area here somewhere.
11 Q. Can you please put an M there.
12 A. [Marks]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the area called Kovaci?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the M stands for?
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to put a question to
17 the witness. I thought well, we were dealing with another topic but now
18 I'd like to put this question.
19 Q. At one point when you toured the area, you saw four mortars of
20 the BH Army at this location; right?
21 A. Yes. They were after we had confronted the brigade with it, they
22 were removed.
23 Q. Thank you. Now that we are dealing with this map, let me ask you
24 about another incident too. The place where you saw a 17-year-old girl
25 being hit by sniper fire in Sokolovic, can that be shown on this map or
1 do we need another map?
2 A. I think I can see that, that was somewhere along this road here,
3 in this particular -- in this area, I believe it was.
4 Q. Could you please put the letter S there.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Now I'm going to ask you about that incident specifically. You
7 saw this girl walking down the road. You were in your vehicle and you
8 went on; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then after about an hour, an inspector of the BH Army police
11 asked you to come to the morgue, and that's where you recognised the girl
12 that you had seen previously on the road. You actually recognised her
13 body; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You did not see the actual moment when she was hit, it was
16 subsequently that you saw her corpse at the morgue?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. She was hit -- or rather, that was concluded on the basis of the
19 postmortem that was done afterwards. The exit/entry wound was so big
20 that a conclusion drawn was that a 12.7-millimetre bullet had been used,
21 which was rather unusual for a sniper, wasn't it?
22 A. It was. But there was some heavy firing into that area that day.
23 Q. The fire that you heard that day at that location, did it come
24 from both sides, if I can put it that way? Did you hear it from
25 different locations? Or was it that you had just heard that there had
1 been firing? Did you personally hear any gun-fire?
2 A. Yes, that day I heard the firing. I heard that it was a heavier
3 weapon than a normal machine-gun, so it had to be something like 12.7,
4 14.6, whatever; and the fire came from east of the airport area.
5 Q. At that time when you were touring the locations at Igman, you
6 saw these same weapons being used by the BH Army; right?
7 A. I saw one 12.7 sniper gun late that winter, yes.
8 Q. Just one more question in relation to this incident. As for the
9 location from which the bullet came, the one that hit the girl, you
10 established that on the basis of the wounds in her body and also the
11 direction of movement that you saw before that; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. At any rate, you don't know whether in the meantime she turned
14 around and started walking the other way, you have no way of concluding
15 what the situation actually was; right?
16 A. Correct. You just had to assume that she was still walking
17 somewhere and had -- she will not be out there walking for no reasons
18 because there was firing in the area.
19 Q. Now I'm going to put a few questions to you in relation to the
21 From whom did you receive information in terms of you having to
22 go to a particular location to carry out an onsite investigation related
23 to shelling?
24 A. Well, we could get information from the civilian police, or if we
25 heard a detonation, we went on site on our own in initiative.
1 Q. I read in your statement that for the most part you went out with
2 an investigating judge. Was that a regular thing? Would an
3 investigating judge always be there when you would come, or would you go
4 together, or what happened?
5 A. No, with some occasions, she was with us. It was especially the
6 days after the bomb that exploded, and then she was present in the area;
7 so she followed everything we investigated on that side for that
9 Q. A general question in relation to the incidents that you dealt
10 with. Generally speaking, from the moment when you would find out that
11 an incident had occurred, how many time would elapse until you would
12 actually arrive at the actual site? Can you give us any idea about the
13 time involved?
14 A. It all depended on if it still was shelling going on or it was
15 just a single detonation. If there was a single detonation, you could be
16 there within ten minutes. If there was shelling going on, we had to wait
17 until that had stopped. And then there was a lot of incidents or
18 detonation we never saw because we couldn't go to the area.
19 Q. Just one more question, and then I think I will have completed
20 this particular line of questioning.
21 While you were working on onsite investigation, there were never
22 any representatives of the Bosnian Serb authorities in any sense, the
23 Army of Republika Srpska, an investigating judge, the police, no one;
25 A. Not in Hrasnica area, no. As long as I was in the team in
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that we can take the break
3 now, Your Honours. And I would like to tender this document into
4 evidence, the map that hasn't been admitted yet.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please
6 be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D36.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And on that note, can we take
9 a break and come back at quarter to 11.00. Court adjourned.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Overgard, when you wanted to tour the frontline, if I can put
14 it that way, you had to address the military authorities and they had to
15 make it possible for you to go to these more dangerous zones; right?
16 A. They wanted us to do that, yes. Although, investigations done
17 close to the front line we also did that on our own initiative.
18 Q. There were also cases when you were told that you shouldn't go,
19 and then you didn't go to visit certain zones; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell me, when you toured the frontline, that's what I'm going to
22 call it, but let me put it this way, did you go close to the line of
23 separation or the frontline of the BH Army?
24 A. Yes, a couple of times I was there.
25 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo
1 the line moved in any way --
2 A. No.
3 Q. -- to anyone's advantage?
4 A. No.
5 Q. So we can conclude that it was stable, the line of separation;
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, I'm going to put a few more questions to you, with regard to
9 something completely different. You said that once you had an onsite
10 investigation in relation to an air-bomb. I'm not going to ask you about
11 the incident itself, but I'm going to ask but the procedure involved. I
12 would be interested in hearing about your relationship with the Bosnian
13 authorities on that occasion. So you can just give me yes or no answers
14 whether I understood the information provided by you correctly with
15 regard to that incident.
16 On that day you heard a loud explosion in the morning when you
17 were still at your base; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Then you tried to contact the local police and you even went to
20 the police station; however, you didn't find anyone there?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Immediately afterwards, you went to the scene, and among the
23 debris, you noticed legs and feet belonging to a man who was wearing
24 camouflage uniform and boots; right?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. And when you discovered that on the spot, then the commander of
2 the 4th Motorised Brigade showed up; and he asked you to go back to your
3 base, and he removed you from the scene; right?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. So you would return to the base, and you stayed there until the
6 late afternoon in the building at your base; and the BH Army put three
7 soldiers at the entrance into the building, and they did not let you
8 leave the building; right?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. In the meantime, two members of the French battalion came to see
11 what was going on, and they were not allowed to leave your base either;
13 A. That's right.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, may I just interrupt you and find out
15 something. I notice that you are asking questions on the redacted part
16 of the tendered statement. You are doing that deliberately and
17 purposefully. Are you opening the redaction and saying that we can also
18 have sight of up redacted version because we have a copy of it, but I
19 notice that what was tendered by the Prosecution, this part is redacted.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour. All of
21 these questions pertain to his testimony and, indeed, his witness
22 statement, the part that is redacted too. I uploaded the unredacted part
23 too in e-court. So if the witness challenges something then I'm going to
24 show you a certain page -- show him, rather, the page of the transcript
25 involved. I just wanted to go through this entire procedure with him
1 without going into the entire testimony with regard to this incident
2 because it's rather lengthy. However, it's a public transcript. His
3 entire testimony is. I can give you page references in respect of the
4 questions that I'm putting to the witness so that you would have that for
5 your own information.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't have any quarrel with you doing what you
7 are doing, all I -- I'm -- the reason I'm asking the question is whether
8 the unredacted version of the statement should now be tendered?
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no. I don't want it to be
10 tendered. I just want to get to some facts that I'd like to get through
11 his answers. I don't want the statement or parts of the transcript in
12 the evidence. However, if there are some contradictions, in terms of the
13 answers he is giving me now, then I'm going to show him parts of his
14 previous testimony. That's the way we handled it before too. If there's
15 anything contradictory then I'm going to put a particular transcript page
16 to him or a page of a statement and ask him about that.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. You may proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honour.
19 Q. So I'll go back to the chronology. Sometime in the late
20 afternoon you were allowed to go back to the scene because your liaison
21 officer had contacted the BH authorities, and late in the afternoon
22 around 1900 hours you came to the scene once again; right?
23 A. I don't remember the exact timings, but late in the evening, yes,
24 or afternoon.
25 Q. At that time, at the scene you no longer found any trace of the
1 legs and feet with camouflage uniform and boots that you had observed
2 beforehand; right?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. When you went to the site itself on those two occasions on that
5 day, that is to say, after the police station first, and then later on in
6 the late afternoon, on the scene you did not find any fragments that
7 could have been helpful to you in terms of reconstructing what had
9 A. We found some fragments but we did not know what this was. I
10 believe it was that way.
11 Q. And the next morning again the Bosnian authorities did not allow
12 you to go to the scene, you stayed on base until around noon; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Then when you came to the scene, the investigation authorities of
15 the BH side showed you certain fragments and pieces of clothing and so on
16 that were used to reconstruct the incident; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. After that with the inspector, you went to the morgue where you
19 were shown the corpse of a woman and you were told that she was a
20 casualty in that incident; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Another question that I did not find anywhere in the transcript.
23 As for the inspector that took you to the morgue or any other
24 representatives of the BH authorities that you contacted during those
25 days, did you tell them about having seen the traces of the feet in boots
1 that you observed on that day? Did you tell them that you had observed
3 A. I believe so because I got the explanation that this was a
4 soldier and he was not badly hurt, so he was alive. It would only be one
5 casualty in that bomb.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you say he was not badly hurt, or --
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Or was he badly hurt?
9 THE WITNESS: He was not badly hurt. He was nearly unharmed.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Did that story sound convincing to you since you had seen the
13 area yourself?
14 A. I should not speculate in that because he was not there anymore,
15 and I was not able to find out anything more about it. Of course, he
16 could be alive and sound, but I have no evidence one way or the other so
17 we just left that story.
18 Q. I'm just going to ask you now to explain what it was that you
19 saw, the image that you saw. In the debris, you saw these legs and feet
20 of a man in camouflage uniform wearing boots, that's what you saw on the
21 first day; right?
22 A. Yes, I saw the legs coming out of a lot of stones from the house
23 and this wall that fell down.
24 Q. And when you saw this, the brigade commander asked that you be
25 removed from the scene; correct?
1 A. He came -- as I discovered this, he came at the same moment and
2 he wanted us to go back to our accommodation.
3 Q. To be completely clear, let me ask you, so when you subsequently
4 discussed this with the local authorities they told you that there had
5 been a BH Army soldier there who had been slightly injured; correct?
6 A. Yes, there was a person. They did not mention a soldier
7 especially. But just I saw only was the legs and the camouflage trousers
8 and boots, military boots.
9 Q. Because on page 35, you mention the word "soldier," that the
10 soldier had not been seriously wounded. You said that a few moments ago,
11 that it was a soldier who hadn't been seriously wounded?
12 A. Yes, you can assume that it was a soldier since he had a uniform
13 and boots, but they referred to it as a person, not badly injured.
14 Q. Just another question in relation to this incident and what you
15 yourself saw, and what you were unable to see later on. Were you able to
16 compile a report to your superiors that you had gone to the scene and
17 that you weren't able to remain there because you had a sort of clash
18 with local authorities. Is that something that you mentioned in your
19 report to your superior?
20 A. I believe it was mentioned because we were detained in our house.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I have no
22 further questions. Thank you Mr. Overgard.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic. Any
24 re-examination, Mr. Thomas.
25 MR. THOMAS: Yes, please, Your Honours. Thank you.
1 Re-examination by Mr. Thomas:
2 MR. THOMAS: Could we please have Exhibit D34 on the screen,
3 please, Your Honours.
4 Q. Now, Major, you recognise this map as one that you marked during
5 the course of your testimony this morning. The number 2, the circle with
6 the number 2, just to refresh your memory, was where you marked the
7 headquarters of the 4th Motorised Brigade of the ABiH.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You want to ask you about those headquarters and the location of
10 those headquarters, and the shelling activity that Hrasnica was subjected
12 During your time there, was the premises of the -- or the
13 buildings occupied by the 4th Motorised Brigade the subject of shelling
14 by VRS forces?
15 A. We never had any investigations in their buildings, no.
16 Q. Was there anything like a pattern of shelling focused around that
18 A. The shelling was all over Hrasnica. We had investigations all
19 along in all the areas. Not anything specific where there were soldiers.
20 Q. If you had -- if those military headquarters were the target,
21 would you have expected a different pattern of shelling?
22 A. I would believe that the shelling will be closer to the specific
23 buildings, yes.
24 Q. Was the headquarters of the 4th Motorised Brigade actually in the
25 centre of what we would describe the centre of the settlement, the focus
1 of the town?
2 A. Yeah, it was in a big block with the -- in a basement, it was a
3 big house for civilians, it was in the basement on that building.
4 Q. In the immediate vicinity of the headquarters was there a -- any
5 civilian concentration?
6 A. Yes, it was civilians all around in that area, yes.
7 Q. And in the other areas of Hrasnica where the shells landed, were
8 there any other such military installations?
9 A. Not to my knowledge.
10 Q. You were asked a series of questions about a 17-year-old girl who
11 was shot by snipers, and this was not a part of the information you gave
12 in your statement or testimony which is before this Tribunal as part of
13 your 92 ter package, your evidential package that we already put in. But
14 because you were asked about that, I just want to just go over that a
15 little briefly with you.
16 First of all, can you explain a little -- can you tell Your
17 Honours about this incident?
18 A. Yes. I believe we had been into the headquarters in the centre
19 of Sarajevo
20 where they were digging tunnel, we saw this girl, she was walking against
21 the houses. This was along where, you could say along this road where
22 there was no houses, just where we saw her; but then closer to the houses
23 on the end of the road when we came there, there was a lot of shooting,
24 and it was heavy shooting this time. It was not only light machine-gun,
25 it was heavy machine-gun.
1 When we came to accommodation, the local police after awhile they
2 contacted us, and I had, because the other guys were occupied with
3 maintenance and generator and car, I went with the policeman alone to the
4 morgue for that one.
5 Q. Now, the shooting you describe as going on at the time, was --
6 was this shooting at the confrontation lines? What sort of shooting was
8 A. It was shooting. And when we protested to our liaison officer in
9 the HQ, we got the answer that they were shooting to get the people away
10 from the area where they were digging.
11 Q. Digging the tunnel?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Who was shooting?
14 A. This was from the Serbian side.
15 Q. You spoke of the bullet that killed this girl. Firstly, was she
16 civilian or military?
17 A. She was civilian definitely.
18 Q. Would that have been apparent to anyone who cared to look?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. You said that she was killed using a 12.7-millimetre round, and
21 my learned friend asked you whether you had ever seen such a weapon in
22 the hands of the army of the ABiH, but what I want to ask you is whether
23 the VRS forces had such weapons as well?
24 A. Not as I had seen.
25 Q. I'm sorry?
1 A. I did never see that, as I remember. But for sure when they also
2 had heavier weapons because we found fragments on the convoy road from
3 30 millimetres and 20 millimetres.
4 Q. Okay. When you say that this girl was shot by the Bosnian/Serb
5 army, where had the shots come from?
6 A. The shots came from the hill-side west of the air field.
7 Q. West of the air field?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Okay. I wonder --
10 A. Sorry, Lukavica barracks are around there, as I remember. Okay.
11 Show that again. Of course, east of the air field.
12 Q. All right.
13 MR. THOMAS: Maybe we can have Exhibit D35 on the screen, which
14 is the map that deals with this incident, I think.
15 Q. Now, I think this is the map that deals with that incidents. Do
16 you recall what you marked on the map as being the site of where this
17 girl was killed?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you mark on the map there where you found the source of fire
20 to be?
21 A. Has to be somewhere in here, this area.
22 Q. And who held that territory?
23 A. That was Serbian territory.
24 Q. Okay. If you could just mark -- VRS forces?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. If you could just put "VRS" there, please.
2 A. [Marks]
3 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. If that could please be
4 produced as an exhibit.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: D35 as marked is admitted as an exhibit. May it
6 please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P486.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. If I could just have a
10 brief moment with one of my learned colleagues.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. THOMAS:
14 Q. Now, you were asked about the occasion where you saw a
15 12.7-millimetre weapon in the position of the army -- in the position of
16 the ABiH. Where did you see that?
17 A. I believe it was on Mount Igman
18 soldiers up there.
19 Q. And were all of those soldiers armed with that weapon?
20 A. No, that was only one weapon with that one. That was a brand new
21 roaming 12.7 sniper rifle.
22 Q. From there position, did they have a line of sight into the area
23 where this girl was killed or any part of ABiH-held Sarajevo?
24 A. They had to be very far up in the hill-side on Mount Igman
25 but from that position they did not have -- where I saw the weapon there
1 was not any line of sight.
2 Q. Are you able to mark on the map that's still on the screen the
3 sort of area where you saw this weapon?
4 A. I'm not sure where it was anymore. I have to ... but I was on
5 the road, convoy road somewhere.
6 Q. Which we see in the bottom left-hand corner of the map; is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, we've spoken about the tunnel, and
10 you've spoken about the tunnel. Was the tunnel of strategic significance
11 to the people of ABiH-held Sarajevo
12 A. For sure it would be because it would do it a lot more easy to
13 get equipment, food, into Sarajevo
14 Q. Why did they need to built a tunnel to do that?
15 A. I'm not sure, but it would do it more easy and more safe to take
16 things into -- to go underground with things than pass the airfield with
18 Q. Were there more conventional points of entry into Sarajevo
19 they could have used?
20 A. I don't know. I think the best way for all supplies was to come
21 down convoy road into Hrasnica area and then from there get it into
23 Q. Finally, Major, I want to ask you about the mortars that were
24 placed for a period at Kovaci?
25 MR. THOMAS: And the map I want to look at is D36, please.
1 Q. Now, do you recognise that map and the markings you were asked to
2 make during your earlier testimony?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. First of all, to correct myself, I think the circle you drew with
5 an S next to it marked the spot where the 17-year-old girl was shot; is
6 that not a proper recollection of mine?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. But the part I'm interested in is the area you've circled
9 marked with the letter M, presumably for mortars.
10 A. Mm-hmm.
11 Q. You described these four mortars in your statement as
12 81-millimetre mortars; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you said that as soon as you discovered that the mortars were
15 positioned there that you made sure they were removed; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know when that was?
18 A. The day after we discovered them when we were going up convoy
19 road again, they were removed. So during that evening night.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You didn't have them removed.
21 THE WITNESS: No, we complained about them, and they -- BiH
22 forces removed them.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just that line 7 of paragraph 44 suggests that you
24 had them removed, so I just wanted to make sure.
25 THE WITNESS: No, we complained about them.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 MR. THOMAS:
3 Q. In terms of trying to place a rough date, was this something that
4 happened early in your time in Hrasnica, or late?
5 A. I had been there for awhile when we saw that, yes.
6 Q. And after you had made the request to have the mortars removed,
7 was there any sign that they were still there, still being used?
8 A. No, we passed that backyard several times but never saw things
9 like that again.
10 Q. Thank you, Major, that's all that I have for you. Their Honours
11 may have some questions for you, if you kindly wait there for a moment.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas.
13 Thank you very much, Mr. Overgard, that concludes your testimony
14 for today and thank you so much for coming and testifying at the
15 Tribunal, you are now excused. You may stand down, and please travel
16 well back home.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
20 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. Mr. Cannata will lead the
21 next witness. That concludes the business of myself and Ms. McKenna
22 before Your Honours this morning. If I could please be excused.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are excused.
24 Mr. Cannata.
25 MR. CANNATA: Good morning, Your Honour. With your indulgence, I
1 will switch on to that computer.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are indulged.
3 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much.
4 Your Honours, the Prosecution calls Dr. Youssef Hajir.
5 MR. CANNATA: It looks like we have a problem getting witnesses
6 into the courtroom today, Your Honour. I apologise for that.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, Doctor.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May you please make the declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, okay.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: She will help you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: YOUSSEF HAJIR
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may now be seated.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 MR. CANNATA: May I proceed, Your Honour?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, Mr. Cannata.
21 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much. Let me reminds Your Honours
22 that Dr. Hajir is a 92 ter witness.
23 Examination by Mr. Cannata:
24 Q. Sir, good morning.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. Can you please state your full name for the record, please?
2 A. Dr. Youssef Hajir.
3 Q. Doctor, can you tell the Court what was your profession from May
4 1992 up to the end of the war, up to the end of 1995? Thank you.
5 A. At the beginning of the war, I lived in Vrace, and since I was
6 unable to get to work because there were barricades on the road around
8 medical clinic.
9 Q. Sorry, let me stop you here. Would you mind answering the
10 question I've asked you.
11 Now, the question would be, what was your profession between May
12 1992 up to the end of the war in 1995? Thank you.
13 A. I opened the Dobrinja Hospital
14 was a surgeon and for the most part in this period, I really managed the
15 hospital and performed surgery.
16 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, can I have 65 ter 9396 on the screen,
18 Q. Sir, do you remember giving a statement to the Office of the
19 Prosecutor of the ICTY on 17 June, 2008
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Is that the document in front of you displayed on e-court, the
22 statement you gave and signed on 17 June, 2008?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. Thank you. Sir, were you asked to review medical documents
25 issued by the Dobrinja Hospital
1 A. Yes, some medical documents.
2 MR. CANNATA: Can we move to page 2 of this statement, please.
3 Thank you.
4 Q. Do you confirm that the documents that are listed at page 2 and 3
5 of this statement are copies of authentic medical records and
6 certificates issued by the Dobrinja Hospital
7 A. I reviewed the documents, and I concluded based on the form of
8 the documents, and the doctors who signed the documents and who were my
9 associates, and also based on documents that I signed, in other words,
10 both based on the signatures, the findings, and the form, they
11 correspond, are consistent with the documents of the Dobrinja Hospital
12 Q. Thank you very much. Now, do you confirm that this statement,
13 the one that you signed on 17 June, 2008
14 best of your knowledge?
15 A. As far as I can recall, yes.
16 Q. Does the statement accurately reflect what you would say today if
17 asked to speak about the same matters once again?
18 A. Absolutely.
19 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, at this point I will tender into
20 evidence the statement and some of the medical records associated with
21 that. I have a 65 ter number for each of the documents I would like to
22 tender into evidence.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Can we deal with 65 ter 09396 first.
24 MR. CANNATA: Yes.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted into evidence. May it please be
1 given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P487.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, the next exhibit will be 65 ter 3030.
5 Now, it is a long document. On this occasion, the Prosecution only
6 tenders some pages from this document under seal. The pages will be page
7 12, 13, 14, and 16 to 29 of the B/C/S original document. And the
8 corresponding pages in the English document which are 17, 18, 19, and 21
9 to 34 of the English translation. Under seal, thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 3030, those page that is are mentioned in
11 both English and the B/C/S are admitted into evidence. May it please be
12 given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, those pages --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Those pages would be Exhibit P488 under seal.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Sir, I'd like you now to move to your testimony in the Galic
19 case. Do you remember testifying before this Tribunal in the case
20 Prosecutor versus Galic on 17 January, 2002
21 A. Yes, I do remember that.
22 Q. Now, did you have an opportunity to review the transcript of your
23 hearing in that case before appearing today in court?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Does it accurately reflect what you will say if asked the same
1 questions again today in court?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, at this stage I would tender into
4 Exhibit 65 ter number 9397, which is the transcript of Dr. Hajir's
5 testimony in the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic case.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where is it? We don't have it up on the screen.
7 MR. CANNATA: Can we have 65 ter 9397 on the screen, please. As
8 Your Honours see, it's a redacted copy of the transcript.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The 65 ter 9397 is admitted.
10 May it please be given an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P489.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, with your leave at this moment I will
14 read out a very brief summary of Dr. Hajir's evidence for the record.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.
16 MR. CANNATA: Dr. Hajir, Youssef Hajir was the director of
17 Dobrinja Hospital
18 throughout the war. Dr. Hajir authenticated medical records and that
19 certificates issued at the Dobrinja Hospital
20 casualties of the shelling incident of 18 June, 1995 at the
21 Simon Bolivar School it Dobrinja, which is schedule shelling incident A7
22 of the Perisic indictment. Your Honour, this concludes the summary and
23 the examination-in-chief. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Cannata.
25 Mr. Lukic.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Dr. Hajir.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. I'm Novak Lukic and on behalf of General Perisic's Defence team,
5 I will put a few questions to you. It won't take very long.
6 A. Very well.
7 Q. However, we do need some clarifications in respect of what was
8 admitted into the evidence now in terms of your testimony.
9 A. That's fine.
10 Q. You and I both speak a language that we both understand, and this
11 has to be interpreted; so when I put my question, could you wait for a
12 few seconds so that the interpreters can catch up, otherwise we are
13 really going to run into problems with the transcript.
14 If I understood things correctly you actually established the
15 hospital in Dobrinja. Did that exist before the war; right?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. Did it have the status of a military hospital?
18 A. At first they called it the military hospital, that's what the
19 civilian protection people called it, and they also called it after me,
20 they said, Dr. Hajir's hospital. Later on when it was registered in
21 court, you know, and when it was recognised by the Ministry of Health
22 then it became the general hospital of Dobrinja
23 Sorry, I have to explain one more thing, well, there is a difference
24 isn't it, so I had to explain all of this.
25 Q. So when was it that it became a general hospital?
1 A. Sometime in 1993. I don't know exactly.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just can we just suggest that indeed try to stick
3 to what you said at the beginning. You speak the same language, you got
4 to give each other a break, and when you do speak, speak a little bit
5 slowly. The interpreter was running at 150 kilometres an hour to try to
6 keep up with you.
7 Thank you, you may proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise to the interpreters in
9 my own name and on behalf of the doctor too.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
12 Q. The hospital was in Dobrinja. In Omladinska Street; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In the same street there was the command post of the
15 Dobrinjska Brigade of the BH Army; right?
16 A. It's not exactly the same place. I mean, there must be at least
17 150 metres between the hospital and the headquarters.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Doctor, may I suggest, ask you to please stop a
19 little bit to give the interpreters an opportunity to interpret the
20 question before you start answering.
21 THE WITNESS: [In English] I'm very sorry.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's okay, Doctor.
23 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. What about your colleagues from the hospital, were any of them
1 members of the BH Army, I'm just talking about the war period, did any
2 one of them have the status of the BH Army?
3 A. [Interpretation] Yes, quite a few of them. Quite a few of them.
4 I think that out of the 150 people who worked at the hospital, there were
5 about 30 to 40 that became members of the army. It was first that the
6 hospital was established and only later they joined --
7 Q. They join the army?
8 A. Yes, but their role didn't really change.
9 Q. Did you have any status in the BH Army, you personally?
10 A. Well, of course, you know. I was -- well, you know what it was
11 like. When the BH Army was established, they called he me up too because
12 I am a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so I was supposed to be mobilised;
13 however, I was already in the army. I had the status of the director of
14 the hospital. You know, I was already a military person. However, no
15 rank, no nothing.
16 Q. Zlatko Kravic was a colleague of yours; right? He was a surgeon,
17 if I remember correctly?
18 A. That's right. Dr. Kravic was the deputy director, and later on
19 he was chief of the medical corps.
20 Q. That is what I wanted to ask over the
21 5th Dobrinjska Motorised Brigade; right?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. Doctor, do you know perhaps how many members the
24 5th Dobrinjska Motorised Brigade had perhaps?
25 A. I really don't know, whatever I would say would not be right. I
1 really don't know.
2 Q. Sometimes armed soldiers came to the hospital building and
3 actually entered the hospital; right?
4 A. Well, this is what I can tell you, there's one thing that's for
5 sure. At first, yes. However, I met up with a commander, and I said
6 that he had to issue an order that they should all leave their weapons at
7 the entrance and then enter the hospital. As far as the organisation of
8 the hospital was concerned, I think that people for the most part abided
9 by that.
10 Q. Will you agree with me that the hospital from the time when it
11 was established, that is to say, from the summer of 1992; right? Or
12 perhaps I may be wrong.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. There was considerable aid coming from donors, and there was
15 humanitarian aid, and it could function rather well, couldn't it?
16 A. Absolutely.
17 Q. And will you agree with me that from 1993 onwards there were
18 supplies. I'm referring to medicine, everything that is indispensable
19 for the functioning of a hospital, supplies got better and better?
20 A. Yes, absolutely. We started from scratch. You see, I mean I
21 carried out my first surgeries with dental equipment, and afterwards when
22 I handed over my duty, there were seven warehouses that were full of
23 equipment. Especially the French battalion, they were very generous with
24 their humanitarian aid.
25 Q. Let's be very specific, when you say at the end when you handed
1 over, when was that?
2 A. Well, when the hospital was closed --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Pause, pause, pause, please. Thank you. You may
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. When was it that you handed over the hospital, and could you just
8 A. I really cannot remember the date. I really cannot remember.
9 It's not that I don't want to tell you; I mean, really, I cannot.
10 Sometime toward the end of 1998, beginning of 1999.
11 Q. Do you remember that during the war, you received some medical
12 assistance from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
13 A. I don't remember. I really do apologise, but I really do not
14 remember. Possibly it did happen but --
15 Q. I have some information to the effect that you had some material
16 that was manufactured by Hemofarm from Vrsac. Do you remember that and
17 do you know where Vrsac is?
18 A. You know, when we started, we really had nothing. We had very
19 serious patients that bled a lot. We were in Dobrinja. And we found
20 three big warehouses in Dobrinja, and we found IV fluids, and we even
21 found dialysis fluids. Hemofarm, yes, they did have a warehouse in
22 Dobrinja that was transported to the hospital, and all of these fluids
23 and medicines that we found we did use.
24 Q. You had a lab in the hospital?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. You also had a plaster room?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. You had a blood transfusion department?
4 A. That's right, but that was later. We really had to train people
5 for blood treatments.
6 Q. My information says that it existed in May 1994 and afterwards,
7 am I making a mistake?
8 A. Well, not really.
9 Q. You also had a sterilisation department; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. From some Islamic humanitarian organisations, you got a Ford
12 vehicle that was used as an ambulance?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. The in-flow of wounded persons and any patients coming in, in
15 1994 and 1995, did it actually go down in relation to the preceding
16 period, can you give us an approximation?
17 A. Well, perhaps slightly, slightly. In relation to 1993, 1993 was
18 the most difficult year of all. Then you know, perhaps it went down by a
20 Q. When admitting people into hospital, did you ever distinguish
21 between different people? Did you establish whether the person being
22 admitted a civilian or soldier?
23 A. We really didn't, sir. We really didn't. Our objective was, and
24 I mean I sat there with the people who were there, our objective was to
25 save as many people as possible. Once we enter the hospital. Later on,
1 we tried to introduce some records, but I wasn't all that happy. You
2 know, I'm a bit of a perfectionist, and I really want to have things in
3 proper order; so I personally was not satisfied. I did manage to improve
4 things as much as I wanted to, but then you know, I'm a surgeon, and I
5 trained all these people. I worked a lot in logistics too in terms of
6 asking for the medicine that would really help patients. We really did
7 not distinguish between and among people in terms of whether they were
8 civilians or military personnel, or on the basis of religious
9 affiliation, or whatever, indeed. Perhaps somebody else kept records of
10 some kind or realised what was going on, but I really did not.
11 MR. LUKIC:
12 Q. Thank you, Your Honours. I have concluded my examination. Thank
13 you, Mr. Hajir, I have no further questions for you.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
17 MR. CANNATA: No re-examination, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 Doctor, thank you very much for taking time off your busy
20 schedule to come and testify at the Tribunal. This brings us to the
21 conclusion of your testimony. You are now excused. You may stand down.
22 And will you please travel well back home.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
1 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, the Prosecution has no other
2 witnesses for today.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. That being the case then that brings us to
4 the conclusion of our deliberations for today. The matter stands
5 adjourned to next Monday, the 2nd of February at quarter past 2.00 in
6 courtroom II. Court adjourned.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.49 a.m.
8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of February
9 2009, at 2.15 p.m.