1 Thursday, 5 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
10 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
11 The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Could we have appearances for the afternoon starting with the
14 Prosecution, please. Yes, Mr. Harmon.
15 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Your Honours, counsel. Mark Harmon,
16 Lorna Bolton, April Carter, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, and for the Defence,
18 Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours and
20 everyone in the courtroom. Mr. Perisic is represented today by Milos
21 Andric, Tina Drolec, Chad Mair, our case manager Daniela Tasic, and Mr.
22 Gregor Guy-Smith and Novak Lukic.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
24 Good afternoon, Mr. Jusufovic. Just to remind that you are still
25 bound by the declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony
1 yesterday to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the
2 truth. Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon. Thank you so much.
5 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. Good afternoon --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
7 WITNESS: MESUD JUSUFOVIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:
10 Q. There are just two areas of your previous testimony that I would
11 like to go back to from cross-examination. The first area, sir,
12 concerned questioning - and for the record, this is found at page 3247 of
13 the transcript - where you were being asked about receiving calls from
14 former members of the fire brigade, and you told the Court that you had
15 conversations with former members, and they would say things like, A
16 shell is coming your way; or they would be announcing that five more
17 shells were coming -- or going to fall on the station.
18 Do you remember that portion of the questioning from yesterday,
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. I just want to ask you some questions about that.
22 First of all, from whom -- what former members of the fire
23 brigade did you receive calls?
24 A. One of them was Zeljko Rakanovic.
25 Q. And did you receive calls every time there was going to be
1 shelling or just on occasion?
2 A. No. They did not call every time, just on occasion, because they
3 used the same radio sets that we had, so from time to time they would
4 announce the shelling. They would curse us and say, Now we're going to
5 start shelling you.
6 Q. Okay. So my next question was going to be, were these in the
7 nature of friendly warnings or different kinds of calls?
8 A. Well, they cursed us. They used profanities. They would tell us
9 that they would kill us all and that's why they were sending these
10 shells. It wasn't in a friendly manner.
11 Q. Okay. And the other area, sir, had to do with questioning about
12 the cold storage depot and the slaughter house. Do you recall that area
13 of questioning from yesterday?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Right.
16 MS. BOLTON: If we could bring up Defence Exhibit 41 from
17 yesterday, please.
18 Q. Sir, you recall being asked questions about this document
20 A. I was asked about Magros here, not about the slaughter house.
21 Q. All right. So this is a different -- this is a different
22 facility than the -- sorry, the Hladnjaca cold storage?
23 A. There was a different document when they asked me about the cold
24 storage facility.
25 Q. Okay.
1 MS. BOLTON: I have the wrong exhibit number, then, I think.
2 Must have been Exhibit 42, D42.
3 If that could be produced, please. Thank you.
4 Q. Great. I have the right document now, do I. Sir?
5 A. Yes, this is the right document.
6 Q. And as I understand it, you indicated yesterday that this was --
7 you acknowledge this was an order about military use of the premises at
8 Hladnjaca cold storage, and the date appears to be sometime in September,
9 perhaps September 18th, 1993. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes. That's what it says on the document.
11 Q. And we were -- when you were answering questions yesterday about
12 the fire at the Hladnjaca cold storage, you had indicated that you had
13 been injured at the time of that fire and could not personally attend.
14 Could you tell us what month and year your fire brigade responded to the
15 fire at Hladnjaca?
16 A. It was in August 1992, and this document is dated September 1993,
17 so when we put out the fire in 1992, it is certain that there was no
18 military presence in that facility.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. Those are all of my questions. The Court
20 may have some questions for you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one or two questions for you, sir.
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where in Bosnia-Herzegovina is Vratnik?
1 A. Vratnik is in the -- in Sarajevo
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much.
4 Now, yesterday, and unlike Madam Bolton I'm technologically
5 challenged, so I'm not going to be able to give you the correct page
6 number of transcript. I give it to you as it stood yesterday.
7 At page 79, lines 18 to 20, you indicated that you had been a
8 fire-fighter since 1983. Do you remember that?
9 A. Yes, I remember.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And in the answer to the next question, you said
11 had you been a taxi driver from 1980 to 1986. Do you remember that?
12 A. Yes, I remember that. That's correct. I don't know what you
13 said, what year I became a fire-fighter. I became a fire-fighter in
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good. That's what I wanted to correct -- I wanted
16 to check, because according to the transcript you said -- it said 1983.
17 I don't know what you may have said. So it was 1986 when you became a
19 A. Yes, a professional fire-fighter. I became a professional
20 fire-fighter in 1986. But I was a volunteer fire-fighter since the age
21 of 7.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And -- okay. Now, if you were a volunteer
23 fire-fighter since the age of 7, then my question will still stand. In
24 1983, were you still a volunteer fire-fighter?
25 A. Yes, I was a volunteer fire-fighter.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And at that time, your permanent job was as a taxi
3 A. That's correct.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: As a volunteer fire-fighter, under what
5 circumstances do you go and fight the fires, if you are supposed to be
6 driving a taxi? Can you explain how that happened? How did you hold
7 these two jobs.
8 A. I was, by occupation, a taxi driver, and a volunteer fire-fighter
9 meant that when there was a fire to be put out, they would call us
10 volunteers, volunteer fire-fighters, and we would set our jobs aside and
11 come to the fire station, and then we would go to respond to the fire.
12 So it was all on a voluntary basis.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. That clears that up.
14 Now, this may be a little difficult, and I will ask for
15 assistance from those who can put me to that page. It was page 82, lines
16 24, to page 83, line 2. You said something like: When we were there we
17 didn't have anything. That's just about all I wrote of that sentence, so
18 I'm not able to give you the meat of that sentence. What I wanted to
19 find out from you is, where were you, and what were you doing there? How
20 do I get yesterday's page 82?
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well -- I thought I had it.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The registrar will help me.
23 MS. BOLTON: If it will assist, it was -- I think that was the
24 question I objected to or around that point in time. So if we searched
25 for the objection, that might assist.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, that's page 3248 at line 11.
2 It says:
3 "While I was there, we didn't have anything. We would observe
4 from Lapusnica them shelling us. This was from about 800 metres, and we
5 would just lie there because there was nothing you could shell" -- "we
6 could shell them with or there was nothing we could shoot and reach
8 Do you remember that answer? I seem to suspect this was when you
9 were in your trenches with your -- [Microphone not activated].
10 A. Yes, I remember that portion.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now when you say when you were there, do you mean
12 when you were in the trenches, or what did you mean by "when we were
14 A. We were on a location which was medieval fort, actually, which is
15 where Vratnik starts, and from this fort you could see Lapusnica. Now,
16 Serbian soldiers were on top of Lapusnica. They played football, they
17 would sunbathe, and then from time to time they would fire a shell from
18 their mortar. We did not have any weapons, and although they were only
19 800 metres away, we had nothing to shoot at them with or fire at them.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 Madam Bolton, do you have any questions arising from the Bench's
23 MS. BOLTON: I don't. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic?
25 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 Sir, that brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank you so
3 much for taking the time to come and testify. You are now excused. You
4 may stand down, and please travel well back home.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 MS. BOLTON: Your Honour, that is my only witness for today. If
9 I could be excused, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You might just be allowed to leave with some of us
11 when we do just now in case we are ordered to do so. I guess the next
12 witness is a protected witness, and I'm told that there's a little bit of
13 preparation that has to be done before we can call the witness. Is the
14 preparation going to be done while we're here, or are we going to adjourn
15 for two or three minutes?
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It takes a minute. You are excused.
18 I suppose that, Madam Carter, you are leading this next witness.
19 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls Sead Besic.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. While we're waiting for him, can I just
21 explain the protective measures that are granted to this witness?
22 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour. On 12 February 2007, in the
23 Dragomir Milosevic case, this witness was granted the protection of image
24 distortion, and we're just asking for a continuation of that protective
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Should we actually be in private session? I think
3 MS. CARTER: His identity by name is not at issue. It's merely
4 he wants to have his face protected because he still serves as an
5 officer, so the name and the pseudonym is not necessary, strictly the
6 image itself.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: But was a pseudonym not granted as a protective
8 measures in the previous case?
9 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour. In fact, the witness has testified
10 both in the Galic as well as the Dragomir Milosevic case under his given
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. But may we move into private session
13 for the purposes of the witness's entry?
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 3272-3280 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 MS. CARTER: May I continue with my questioning?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, ma'am.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Now you may.
24 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: So north is down?
1 MS. CARTER: Correct. Well --
2 Q. Sir, can you please indicate -- you've written the letter "N,"
3 and you've also given a directional angle. Can you please clarify for
4 the Court, are you indicating that to the bottom of this page is north?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Further, with relation to this image, you were asked to
7 mark the impact crater. Can you please do so again here today with a
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And if you can please place the English initials "IC" next to the
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. You further were asked to indicate where the bicycles that we saw
14 in the previous photograph were located within your sketch. Can you
15 please draw a circle around where those bicycles were located?
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Okay. If you could please place the English initial "B" above
18 those bicycles.
19 A. [Marks]
20 MS. CARTER: If I can have a screen shot of this image and tender
21 it into evidence.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The sketch is admitted into evidence. May it
23 please be given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P528.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 When you are done, I have a few clarification questions about the
3 MS. CARTER: Okay. Certainly, Your Honour.
4 That's all I'll need for this sketch.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
6 MS. CARTER:
7 Q. Sir, within the sketch, you've placed the bicycles and you've
8 placed the impact crater. What is the approximate distance between those
9 two items?
10 A. Roughly four metres.
11 Q. That's the only question that I have in relation to this diagram.
12 If Your Honours would like to ask additional questions.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 Sir, if you could please briefly run us through this sketch and
15 tell us what everything is, it would be very helpful; or maybe let me
16 start off by leading you and say there are two long parallel lines in
17 between of which you have circled the impact crater. What do those lines
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These parallel lines stand for the
20 width of the street.
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name of the
22 street that the witness mentioned.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the name of the street? Did you mention
24 the name?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 Now, to the top left of the sketch, there is a rectangular
3 drawing with an indentation to the left. What is that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the edge of the building by
5 which a passage stretches on. This is the entrance way, the lateral
6 entrances into the buildings.
7 If I could only show you this. This street leads to the front
8 gate onto the Markale market.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which street? The street that --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It used to be called
11 Vase Miskina Street. Now it's called Ferhadija.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, the rectangle inside which you wrote
13 the letter "B," what does it represent?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the town market.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the entrance from the Mula
17 Mustafe Baseskije Street, and then there is the entrance to the market
18 from Ferhadija Street, but you can't see it on this sketch, though.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to shorten my questions.
20 Do I then understand that the next rectangle on the right is also
21 a block of buildings, and that between it and the one you have just
22 explained, there is a passage again?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is another passage also
24 leading to Ferhadija Street.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. And would I then understand that on
1 the northern side of the street, those are also -- those rectangles also
2 represent buildings and a passage?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. There is something that looks like a
5 bicycle or a motorbike. I think it's numbered number 6. What is that?
6 In the street.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A driver of a small moped was
8 killed, and the motorcycle was found there and marked.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 You may proceed, Madam Carter.
11 MS. CARTER: I would like to call up P526 at page 34, Your
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MS. CARTER:
15 Q. For clarity of your answers to Your Honour's questions, are you
16 able to orient on this picture where the motorbike was located in the
18 A. It is to be found on the tram tracks here. If I could show it to
19 you, it's on the right-hand side, the spot where the shell landed. There
20 is damage to the left and the right side.
21 MS. CARTER: If I could ask for the assistance of the usher
22 again. I do apologise.
23 Q. Sir, I'd first like you to circle the motorbike that you
24 referenced in answer to Your Honour's question.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. If can you write the English initial "M" to the left of that
2 motor bike.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. You were also asked about the impact crater in relation to the
5 sketch. Are you able to see the impact crater in this image as well?
6 MS. CARTER: The witness is marking the photograph.
7 Q. Sir, if you can write the English initials the "IC" below that
8 impact crater.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. You were also asked in relation to Your Honour's question about
11 the buildings themselves. Can you please identify for the Court with the
12 English initials "MM" the Markale market.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Sir, can you also identify for the Court and for counsel what, if
15 any, shrapnel damage is apparent from this photograph?
16 A. Yes. One can see shrapnel damage on the buildings on the left
17 and on the right side.
18 Q. If you could please mark that shrapnel damage with the dashes as
19 you did in the first photograph.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. You've marked dashes within the image. If you can please write
22 above those dashes the letter "S," for shrapnel.
23 A. [Marks]
24 MS. CARTER: If I could please have a screen shot of this image
25 and tender it into evidence.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought the witness said:
2 "Yes. One can see shrapnel damage on the buildings on the left
3 and on the right side."
4 I would like to see on the other side too.
5 MS. CARTER: Certainly.
6 Q. Before we capture this image, if you can also indicate the
7 shrapnel damage to the right.
8 A. If we could zoom in, we would be able to see the damage in this
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we please zoom in? We can't. Okay.
11 MS. CARTER: Well, if we can capture this image first and then
12 zoom in, we'll take a second screen shot, if Your Honours please.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: We please.
14 MS. CARTER: I tender this into evidence.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it be given an exhibit
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P529.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MS. CARTER: If the image can now be zoomed in upon so that we
20 have just the photograph to the extent that we can in the full frame.
21 Q. Sir, you're now seeing the image. Would you be able to show for
22 Your Honours the shrapnel damage to both the left and right of this
23 image. Before you mark, if you could confirm that.
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. Sir, you've placed both circles as well as dashes to the left and
1 to the right of this image. Are you indicating that this is the shrapnel
2 damage visible at this location?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. To the extent that you're aware, was the shrapnel damage caused
5 on 18 August 1995
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. CARTER: I would ask to take a screen shot of this image,
8 indicating the shrapnel damage, and I tender it into evidence.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted. May it be given an exhibit
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P530.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 MS. CARTER: That is the last image that I'll have marked upon.
14 Q. I just want to clarify one more aspect of your Dragomir Milosevic
15 testimony. As the page numbers have changed from that transcript to this
16 transcript, I want to make certain that we have clarity.
17 During your redirect testimony in Dragomir Milosevic, you were
18 asked about there being evidence of the vendors and their goods being
19 on-site during events at Markale II, and this was at transcript page
20 2624, line 14.
21 MS. CARTER: I'd now like to call up P526 at page 46.
22 Q. Sir, is this the image that you identified in Dragomir Milosevic
23 as evidence of a cigarette vendor on-site?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And, finally, I would like to move to page 66 of the same
2 Is this the image that you identified in prior testimony as
3 depicting another vendor's goods, specifically cigarette lighters?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Sir, I thank you for your time and your testimony, and I pass the
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: No questions.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Witness, I have some questions to
15 Just where the covered market, where the bomb exploded on the
16 other side, there is an open market with green grocers who are selling
17 fruits and vegetables.
18 A. Yes. It is some 100 metres away from the market.
19 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
20 A. Yes. The two markets - namely, the open market and the closed-in
21 market - are quite close, one to another, as is the fruit market, which
22 is also nearby.
23 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Therefore, the bomb exploded or
24 the shell exploded between the two markets, closer to the covered market
25 but between the two?
1 A. It exploded right outside the entrance to the Markale market, and
2 a year earlier, a shell landed on Markale I. That is the market that
3 you're referring to.
4 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand. Thank you.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, you stood up in a very agitated
7 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour. I didn't anticipate being
8 agitated. I just wanted to point out for the Court, at page 26, line 8,
9 Judge Picard's question was not recorded, so we're not certain for the
10 clarity of record what the question was that the witness responded to.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Judge Picard, can you remember?
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the French booth help us or ... if they can
14 remember what the Judge said.
15 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could ask whether the
16 two markets were active during the war?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 Thanks, Madam Carter.
20 Any questions arising from Judges' questions, Madam Carter?
21 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith?
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: None.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That brings us to the end of your testimony, sir.
2 Thank you so much for coming to testify. You are now excused. You may
3 stand down, and please travel well back home.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into -- we are in open
7 session. All we need to do is to pull up the curtain.
8 Madam Carter, next witness.
9 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, Mr. Cannata will take the next witness,
10 but he's not with us. He's probably en route or -- we anticipated that
11 this examination would continue through 3.30 at least, so we didn't have
12 Mr. Cannata sitting in the courtroom.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any suggestions what we can do?
14 MR. HARMON: What I suggest, we break -- take a break now and
15 then come back --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Come back for Mr. Cannata.
17 MR. HARMON: -- and Mr. Cannata will be ready.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.
19 Court adjourned.
20 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
21 --- Break taken at 3.19 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon once again.
24 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, Mr. Cannata will call the next witness.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
2 MR. CANNATA: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm here. The next
3 witness is a protected witness. Shall we go -- yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
5 Could we bring down the curtain, please, or the blind, as it is called.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 3293-3297 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since I would like to put a couple of
16 questions to the witness which have to do with his professional
17 background, could we move into private session for the next couple of
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 3299-3312 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, my colleague Ms. McKenna will call the
10 next witness.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam McKenna.
12 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, if I may be excused.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are, Mr. Cannata.
14 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: As you move to your podium, Madam McKenna, what is
16 the name of your next witness, or is he a protected witness too?
17 MS. McKENNA: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon.
19 MS. McKENNA: The next witness is Mr. Azem Agovic. He is a 92
20 ter witness.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And he's not protected?
22 MS. McKENNA: And he's not protected.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, sir.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May you please make the declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. You may be seated, sir.
6 Your witness, Madam McKenna.
7 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 WITNESS: AZEM AGOVIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Examination by Ms. McKenna:
11 Q. Sir, could you please state your name and date of birth for the
13 A. My name is Azem Agovic. I was born on the 12th of July, 1948
14 Q. Do you recall testifying in the case against Dragomir Milosevic
15 on 13th February, 2007
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. McKENNA: If we could please have 65 ter 09425 on the screen,
18 and page 3 of that document.
19 Q. Prior to coming here today, was this testimony read back to you
20 in your own language?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were the contents of the testimony true and correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If you were asked the same questions today, would you answer in
25 the same way?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, may I please tender this as a
3 Prosecution Exhibit.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
5 please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P535.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 MS. McKENNA: Thank you.
9 If I could please have 65 ter 09423.
10 Q. Mr. Agovic, do you recall giving a statement to the
11 representatives from the Office of the Prosecutor on 21st of November,
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And if we could just scroll down on the English version of this
15 document, so the document on the left-hand side.
16 Do you recognise your signature on that document?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was this document -- was your statement read back to you in your
19 own language prior to signing it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And have you had an opportunity to review the statement prior to
22 your testifying today?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Are the contents of the statement true and correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And, once again, if you were asked the same questions today,
2 would you answer them in the same way?
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, could this please be tendered as a
5 Prosecution Exhibit.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's is admitted into evidence. May it please be
7 given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P536.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 MS. McKENNA: If I could please have 65 ter 09424 in e-court.
11 Q. Mr. Agovic, do you recall giving a further statement to
12 representatives from the Office of the Prosecutor on the 21st of April,
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And do you recognise your signature on this document?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was the document read back to you in your own language prior to
18 your signing it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And have you had an opportunity to review the statement prior to
21 your testifying today?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Once again, if you were answered [sic] the same questions, would
24 you answer them in the same way?
25 A. Yes.
1 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, if I could tender this as a
2 Prosecution Exhibit.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P537.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
7 MS. McKENNA:
8 Q. Together with your previous testimony before the Tribunal, do
9 these two statements constitute an accurate record of what happened to
10 you on the 3rd of March, 1995?
11 A. Yes.
12 MS. McKENNA: With the Court's permission, I'd like at this stage
13 to read a short summary of the witness's prior testimony into the record.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, ma'am.
15 MS. McKENNA: The witness's evidence relates to scheduled
16 incident B11 of the indictment.
17 On 3rd March, 1995
18 travelling on a crowded tram between the new part of the city in Novi
19 Grad and the old city in Bascarsija. It was a sunny and clear day. The
20 witness was sitting facing the rear of the tram with the Grbavica
21 neighbourhood to his left. In the vicinity of the Holiday Inn hotel,
22 where the tram lines turn to the outside of the road from the centre, the
23 witness was shot. One bullet entered his body just above the left hip
24 and exited at his right hip. The witness testified that the shooting
25 came from the Grbavica area. A young man and a child were also wounded
1 in the incident. There were no military institutions, military vehicles,
2 or any other military equipment present in the vicinity of the area in
3 which the tram was shot at, neither had there been any military activity
4 in the area that day.
5 The witness was taken to Kosevo Hospital where he was operated on
6 and stayed for 16 days in intensive care. After the incident, the
7 witness's health deteriorated. Initially, he could not walk far, drive a
8 car, or carry heavy things, and he continued to receive treatment for
9 about another three years.
10 Your Honours, if I may, I'd like to ask one or two brief
11 clarificationary questions regarding the testimony that the witness has
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, ma'am.
14 MS. McKENNA:
15 Q. Witness, in your statement of 21st November, 1995, you described
16 how you were taken to Kosevo Hospital
18 MS. McKENNA: If I could ask that we see 65 ter 04525, please.
19 Q. Mr. Agovic, this is a letter of admission to the emergency ward
20 of the Kosevo Hospital
21 was the date on which you were admitted to the hospital?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this as a
24 Prosecution exhibit.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted. May it please be given an
1 exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P538.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MS. McKENNA: If we could please see 65 ter 00181.
5 Q. Mr. Agovic, this is a medical record from the Sarajevo University
6 Clinical Centre regarding the treatment you received for the injury
7 caused by the sniper shot. Could you please explain what type of surgery
8 you underwent?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam McKenna, will the witness be able to answer
10 that question, or should we, rather, refer to this document to see what
11 surgery he underwent?
12 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, the witness does have a recollection
13 of the general type of surgery, but by all means, we can refer to the
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine. As you please. If you think he can give us
16 an explanation, let him go ahead.
17 MS. McKENNA:
18 Q. Mr. Witness, to the best of your ability, can you recall the
19 treatment you received in Kosevo Hospital
20 A. Well, all I can say, that the surgery was very complex because
21 you can see my entire abdomen on the front was open. The scars are still
22 visible where the bullet entered and exited. The surgery took about
23 seven to eight hours, between 11.00 p.m. up until 7.00 a.m., 8.00 a.m.,
24 and being an architect I really could not help you with the medical
1 Q. That's understood.
2 A. No one really believed that I would survive.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
4 MS. McKENNA: If I may tender this document as an exhibit,
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 00181 is admitted. May it please be given
7 an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P539.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, this concludes my
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam McKenna.
13 Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Agovic, good afternoon. My name is Novak
17 Lukic, and on behalf of the Defence team for Mr. Perisic, I will be
18 putting several short questions to you. I would just kindly ask you to
19 make a brief pause before answering my question, and I will do the same
20 before I put the next question to you in order to make sure that the
21 interpretation of what we say is accurate.
22 We've already heard two witnesses in relation to this incident in
23 this courtroom before, and we do have a fair idea of what happened. But,
24 nevertheless, you will be given a sketch, and I will ask you to draw the
25 position where you recall the tram was.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, unfortunately, all the
2 photographs are already marked in e-court, and this is one copy of a
3 photograph I received courtesy of the OTP, and could we place this on the
4 ELMO for the witness to make a marking on it if he can find his bearings
5 on it.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. But your --
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There is 65 ter 8598. Unfortunately,
8 all the copies that were available are already marked in e-court. This
9 is a blank copy, and I can pass it up to my colleagues to inspect it. I
10 just wanted it to be placed on the ELMO.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. Pass it onto your colleagues. While
12 you're doing so -- there we go. We seem to be getting it on e-court.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was going ask why can't we get it because --
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excellent.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was looking at other photographs,
18 and they were all marked.
19 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the location?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you see and can you mark the place where you believe the tram
22 was shot at and when you were wounded on this photograph? The usher will
23 hand you a special pen, and you will place a small cross on the screen
24 itself, marking the location where you believe the tram was.
25 You were moving from the right side to the left, from downtown to
1 the suburbs?
2 A. From Ilidza towards Bascarsija.
3 Q. Right.
4 A. And this is where the tram crosses from the middle of the street
5 where the track ran to the right-hand side of the street, and this is
6 where it was.
7 Q. Can you please place a cross on the spot?
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Right.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please erase the
11 obviously erroneous blue line in the continuation?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this one.
13 MR. LUKIC:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this into
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted into evidence. May it please be
18 given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D43.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 MR. LUKIC:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Agovic, you felt a blow. Did you hear a
23 shot being fired before that, or did you not hear anything? Do you
24 recall this? It's been a long time ago.
25 A. When the first shot was fired, I only felt the pain, but I did
1 not hear that first shot which hit me. I only heard the shots that
3 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please be asked to approach the
5 MR. LUKIC:
6 Q. [Interpretation] That same bullet?
7 A. No. The person next to me was hit by another bullet.
8 Q. And how do you know that it was a different bullet that hit the
9 person next to you?
10 A. Because the bullet that hit me remained in my body, so it must
11 have been another bullet that hit the other person.
12 Q. I'm asking you this because only one hole, a bullet-hole, was
13 found on the tram during the on-site investigation.
14 A. Well, I'm an architect. I'm not familiar with these matters.
15 Q. In your statement, which is now Exhibit P5536, this is the first
16 statement you gave in 1995, and you say - that's the last paragraph of
17 the statement:
18 "The bullet that hit me was fired from a building in Zagrebacka
19 Street on the very edge where Grbavica starts."
20 If we blow up the photograph, can you locate --
21 A. The building was called Matalka. I didn't go over there to take
22 look at it, but that's what the story was, that there was a sniper up
24 Q. It was something you heard from the various stories?
25 A. I didn't have any desire to go and see for myself.
1 Q. At any rate, you had the information on the basis of what you
2 heard, that there were snipers in that building?
3 A. When I recovered and I began walking again, that was when I heard
4 the story, not before.
5 Q. So you've -- you didn't finish your answer. You learned about it
6 when you got out of the hospital, but before that?
7 A. No, I never did go over there. I would not have been on a tram
8 had there not been a truce in force at the time because the trams
9 otherwise would not have run through the area. There was a truce on, and
10 that's why the trams were running along the tracks, and after that
11 incident, they did not run before the Dayton Accords were passed.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's all. Thank you,
13 Witness. I have no further questions.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
15 Any re-examination, Madam McKenna?
16 MS. McKENNA: I would just like to make a clarification or a
17 correction, rather, to the transcript at page 58, line 2. The direction
18 should read Bascarsija to Ilidza. So --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you confirm that with the witness, please.
20 Re-examination by Ms. McKenna:
21 Q. Witness, could you please confirm which direction the tram was
22 travelling when you were shot.
23 A. From Ilidza to Bascarsija.
24 Q. Thank you. And you were facing in the direction of?
25 A. It was facing Ilidza.
1 Q. And which area was to your left?
2 A. Grbavica was to my left.
3 Q. And from which direction were -- were you hit?
4 A. From the left side.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. McKENNA: I have no further questions.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, ma'am.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one question, sir, or one little issue.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did I hear you correct that you had an entry wound
12 and an exit wound on the other side of -- on the other hip, on the right
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: In answer to a question by counsel for the
16 Defence, you said that the bullet that hit you remained in your body, so
17 it must have been another bullet that hit the other person.
18 My question is: If it remained in your body, how do you get an
19 exit wound?
20 A. The physicians took it out. It was stuck in the tissue. As it
21 went and hit the right hip bone, it remained stuck there, hanging in the
22 skin tissue or the trousers or whatever. I'm not sure about this fully,
23 where exactly it was, because it was the doctor who took it out and
24 showed it to me, and you can see the exit wound. You can see both the
25 entry and the exit wounds.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: We accept what you say. We will not want to look
2 at your hip at this stage. Thank you so much.
3 Any questions arising from the Bench's questions? Madam McKenna?
4 Thank you.
5 Sir, that brings us to the end of your testimony for today. You
6 are now excused, and you may stand down. Please travel well back home.
7 That concludes your evidence, and thank you so much for coming to
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
11 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours. That is all the witnesses
12 the Prosecution has available today.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: For the day?
14 MR. SAXON: Yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Do we then stand adjourned to Monday
16 the 9th at 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom I.
17 Court adjourned.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.12 p.m.
19 to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of
20 February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.