1 Monday, 9 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 May we have the appearances for today, starting with the
14 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. Dan Saxon for the
15 Prosecution together with my colleagues, April Carter, and
16 Carmela Javier.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much Mr. Saxon.
18 And for the Defence.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good morning, Your Honours. We trust that
20 everyone had a good weekend. The sun actually broke through the grey
21 this weekend, which was kind of nice. This morning there is
23 am Gregor Guy-Smith.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 The Prosecution, Mr. Saxon.
1 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, Ms. Carter will call the next witness.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
3 MS. CARTER: The Prosecution calls Lieutenant-Colonel Per Anton
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you think you can spell out his names while
6 we're waiting for us.
7 MS. CARTER: Certainly, Your Honour. The first name is P-e-r,
8 second name A-n-t-o-n.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I don't know if everyone's hearing
11 this, but I'm getting French out of everyone channel.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: What channel are you on?
13 MS. CARTER: I have run one through 1, 2, 3, and 4.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: No. You've got to stay on 4.
15 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I'm still hearing French.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why am I not hearing French? I'm on 4.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: If we could have Madam Carter helped, please.
19 MS. CARTER: I can use the secondary set of.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Lieutenant.
22 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you please make the declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: PER ANTON BRENNSKAG
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
3 Are you okay now, Madam Carter?
4 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour I will use the secondary set of
5 microphones and earphones for ease.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
7 MS. CARTER: May it please the Court.
8 Examination by Ms. Carter:
9 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel Brennskag, can you please introduce yourself
10 to the Court.
11 A. Yes. My name is Per Brennskag. I am 60 years old, and I'm from
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does the name Anton fit anywhere in your names.
15 THE WITNESS: I can't hear you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does the name, Anton fit anywhere among your
18 THE WITNESS: Yes. Per Anton Brennskag.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, okay. Thank you very much.
20 MS. CARTER:
21 Q. Sir, you've indicated that are you an army man. Can you please
22 tell us, when did you enter the Norwegian army?
23 A. I entered the officer course in the Norwegian army as an infantry
24 man in 1970, and I graduated from the Military Academy in 1974.
25 Q. You've indicated that you were in an infantry officer. Can you
1 please tell the Court what type of training that you received, in order
2 to hold such a position.
3 A. I had my basic training as an infantry officer from 1970. I was
4 introduced with the rifles, the normal infantryman use and other weapons
5 we used. We were educated how to use the terrain, how to patrol, how to
6 lead a squad and so on; and afterwards, during my whole career, I was --
7 learned to -- how to plan, how to prepare, and how to execute, for
8 example, attacks on ground, and how to use the - what should I say? -
9 okay, I stop there.
10 Q. Thank you. Just for clarity for the record, you were having
11 difficulty choosing the last word. Is it accurate that English is not
12 your mother tongue?
13 A. My English is not my mother tongue, and it's seldom I am using
14 English now.
15 Q. Okay. But are you comfortable using the English language in
16 court today?
17 A. I try my best.
18 Q. Thank you. That's all we can ask.
19 Sir, at some point in time did you begin to work for the
20 United Nations?
21 A. Please say again.
22 Q. At some point in time did you begin working with the
23 United Nations?
24 A. Yes. In 1992, I attended an UN observer course in Finland
25 an operational course, lasted three or four weeks, preparing officers for
1 the job as unarmed observers, especially for the Middle East.
2 Q. Sir, specifically, what type of training and education did you
3 receive in order to become an unarmed observer?
4 A. It was both practical and theoretical. The theory was to cope
5 with military English, of course, the history, especially, about Middle
6 East, and the politics in the Middle East. The practice was very good.
7 It was how to observe from an observer post, how to make patrols, how to
8 behave in the case you were hijacked, how to cope with a car that was
9 wrecked, how to repair it, and how to drive in very difficult terrain,
10 and how to work together with other observers from other countries. Yes.
11 Q. Did you take this education and training that you received and
12 use it in the field?
13 A. Yes. During the course, we were very much in the field to
14 practice this. For example, we were very realistical [sic] hijacked,
15 stripped from clothes, and had to go back to the barracks.
16 Q. After you received this training, did you become an UN military
17 observer in the Middle East?
18 A. Yes. I went down to the Middle East in - I think it was in
19 June - the same year, in 1992, and I was an unarmed observer half a year
20 on the demarcation line between Lebanon
21 in Syria
22 Q. After your service in the Middle East, what did you do next?
23 A. Then, of course, I went back to my job in the army in Norway
24 Q. Were you later called upon to be an UN observer again?
25 A. Yes. I applied for it, and in early 1988 I was a little bit
1 surprisingly asked to go to Balkans as an unarmed military observer.
2 Q. You gave the year to go to the Balkans as 1988; is that correct?
3 A. No, that is not correct.
4 Q. Can you give the clarify the year?
5 A. 1995.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. And when you entered the Balkans in 1995, what
7 was your original assignment?
8 A. In the UN observer team, you mean?
9 Q. Yes, please.
10 A. Yes, my assignment was to be an unarmed military observer, and I
11 was -- my first posting was in what we call Sector Sarajevo.
12 Q. In that first Sector Sarajevo posting, which division or portion
13 of Sector Sarajevo were you assigned to?
14 A. I was assigned to the observer team in Pale on the Bosnian Serb
16 Q. Did you stay the entire time in Pale or did you later move on to
17 another division?
18 A. No, I didn't stay the entire time. I was luckily enough to get
19 out of Pale the 24th of May for a leave, and I think it was the 25th or
20 26th, the first NATO air-strike, and all my colleagues were seized or
21 detained, so I never could go back to Pale, so after my leave, I was
22 posted inside Sarajevo
23 Q. Where were you specifically posted within Sector Sarajevo,
25 A. At first, I were posted in an observer team which we called Team
2 Q. Within Team Pofalici, did you also man an observation post?
3 A. Yes. The Team Pofalici had an observation post on the hillside
4 called Vitkovac it's just east of Rajlovac radio station on the hillside
5 and north of -- a little bit north of the new town of Sarajevo.
6 Q. And, sir, did that observation post correspond to a number?
7 A. As far as I know, it was called 4, OP 4.
8 Q. Okay. After your service as a military observer within the
9 Pofalici team, did you remain in that status or did you take another
10 responsibility within the UN sometime thereafter?
11 A. I'm not really sure of the date, but sometimes in the middle of
12 August, I was asked to be a liaison officer inside Sarajevo to liaise
13 between UN observer HQ in Sarajevo
14 military units inside Sarajevo
15 Q. And, sir, when did you depart Sarajevo?
16 A. Excuse me. I departed Sarajevo, I think it must be the
17 17th of September.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. Now that we have established your biography, I
19 would like to focus a bit more on your work within Sarajevo.
20 First, I would like to move a general description before we get
21 into the specifics that you participated there in Sector Sarajevo.
22 Can you please describe the role and the responsibilities as an
23 unarmed observer in Sarajevo
24 A. Yes. The unarmed observers inside Sarajevo had normally the job
25 to observe from observer posts. They should, of course, patrol areas,
1 but normally we were very restricted. We had to investigate accidents
2 or -- what could I say, what something happened, impacts, wounded people,
3 killed people. You had to investigate and make reports.
4 Q. Sir, you indicated that you were observing. What specific were
5 you observing?
6 A. We were observing military movements but mostly impacts inside
8 Q. When you say that you were observing mostly impacts inside
10 A. Mostly impacts inside Sarajevo
11 also what is known as modified air bombs.
12 Q. Are you aware of who was firing this artillery, mortars, and air
14 A. Yes. Most of the times, we could see from where it was fired.
15 Q. And predominantly where was this firing coming from?
16 A. The firing into Sarajevo
17 which area?
18 Q. No, who was firing it.
19 A. Mostly, the firing with artillery and mortars and modified air
20 bombs was fired from BSA-held areas.
21 Q. Can you please indicate to the Court what does BSA stand for?
22 A. For me, the Bosnian Serb area.
23 Q. And, sir, based on your observations, did you learn where the
24 confrontation lines were therein Sarajevo
25 A. Yes, of course. The confrontation line differed sometimes
1 because of the fightings, but, in brief, we knew every time where the
2 confrontation line was.
3 MS. CARTER: I would like to bring up 65 ter 4448. And I will be
4 asking the witness to identify the confrontation lines by marking on the
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we getting the 65 ter?
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 MS. CARTER: 65 ter 4448 is a street map of the entirety of
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be given
14 Exhibit P540. Thank you, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MS. CARTER:
17 Q. Now with the assistance of the usher, I would like you to
18 identify for the Court the confrontation lines that were in place in
19 summer of 1995.
20 A. Excuse me, it's very long time ago, 1995, and it's very small
21 figures on the map, so I ask to -- could use a help map, my private map,
22 to remember.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'd like that -- to have the opportunity to
24 review this gentleman's private map before he uses it, so I know what it
25 has on it.
1 MS. CARTER: For ease of the Defence counsel, it actually is the
2 final page of the 2006 statement, which is a highlighted -- or a much
3 more -- less detailed map than the one that we have present.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: With that understanding, there's no problem.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're sure you don't want to see what the
6 gentleman has.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would like to see it just to verify it, yeah.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
9 MS. CARTER: If the usher to please tender the copy to Defence
10 counsel prior to him using it.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, I guess you are aware that the Bench
12 doesn't have that.
13 MS. CARTER: Correct, Your Honour. This is neither a 65 ter
14 listing nor is it going to be entered into evidence. It's merely the
15 back page and the witness's own private map that he has created, but
16 we're using the official map that is present on the screen for the
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You go ahead.
19 MS. CARTER: I'm happy to provide a hard copy.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I -- if I might, can ...
21 MS. CARTER: I'm sorry that I believe that it was the same map.
22 We can certainly put on the ELMO, so the Court can see it so we know what
23 he is marking off the e-court.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: If you could -- to make life easier if Carmela
25 can just take a look at the map that she has in her hands because it is
1 not what I have right here, Ms. Carter.
2 MS. CARTER: If we can have the usher give the black and white
3 copy, the final page of the statement.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, the map the gentleman has indicated is the
5 map that he wishes to uses is not the same map that we have been
6 supplied. I'm going to hand both maps to the usher so that Ms. Carter
7 can review them.
8 MS. CARTER: I do stand corrected. The map that the gentleman
9 does have in his possession currently is more detailed. However, again,
10 he is merely using it as an aide-memoire to be able to mark the
11 confrontation lines on the official map. Again, we can certainly use the
12 ELMO so we can all be aware of what he is reviewing.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: If somebody would do my the kindness of running
14 me a copy of the map so that have it available, I would appreciate it.
15 MS. CARTER: That can certainly be done. If we can have just a
16 moment. I don't have a copy of it.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, do I read from what you are saying,
18 that you don't mind the map being used. As long as you have a copy.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: As long as I have a copy. If it is of assistance
20 to the witness in terms of his testimony, I have no objection whatsoever
21 to it being used.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MS. CARTER: Am I to understand that we can use it currently but
24 as long as we provided it at the break.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, that is correct. And also just so we're
2 clear, on the record, that the map that has been supplied in the
3 gentleman's 2006 statement is not the map; and perhaps we can inquire as
4 to when this map was produced so we have some indication and
5 understanding of the provenance of this particular map apart from the
6 fact that he made it.
7 MS. CARTER: That would have to come from the witness himself
8 because it not in my possession.
9 Q. Sir, the coloured map that you brought into court today, where
10 does that map come from?
11 A. This map is made on me for private reasons, to remember the
12 observation posts and to remember approximately confrontation lines. And
13 it's made, I'm not sure, but long before 2006.
14 Q. You indicated that you yourself made this map. Did you keep it
15 in your private collections?
16 A. Yes, of course.
17 MS. CARTER: If the coloured map can be provided back to the
18 witness. And I believe that answers Mr. Guy-Smith's question.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
20 MS. CARTER: Thank you.
21 Q. Now, sir, using your aide-memoire, if you please mark on the
22 official map the confrontation lines that were present in Sarajevo
24 A. Yeah, I'll try. Anyhow --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness indicated earlier that the map on the
1 screen is too small. Can we zoom in a little bit for him to see what he
2 wants to see.
3 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, if we zoom in, we won't be able to see
4 the full confrontation line, and the witness did see the same map
5 yesterday in a black and white form. It takes us a little while, but
6 we'll get there.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You go ahead, ma'am.
8 MS. CARTER: Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, I'm not very sure where Grbavica is on
10 this map, but BSA-held Grbavica. Then I have tried to mark the
11 confrontation line as good as I can see the map. But, anyhow, it's very
13 MS. CARTER:
14 Q. Sir, can you indicate for the Court within the figure that you
15 drew who held that territory?
16 A. Excuse me. I try to explain the airport was so-called neutral
17 area held by UN.
18 Q. And can you please indicate on that drawing, just write the word
19 "airport" in English to designate that area.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. You've used two acronyms, BSA and ABiH. Can you please indicate
22 for the Court what they stand for?
23 A. BSA, for me, Bosnian Serb held area. ABiH, army BiH.
24 MS. CARTER: The Prosecution would request a screen-shot of this
25 exhibit, and we tender it into evidence.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
2 please be given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document shall be given
4 exhibit P541. Thank you, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 MS. CARTER: If we can now have a clear copy again of P540,
7 highlighting the grid markings D, E, and F, at 3 and 4.
8 If we can narrow down on the top left corner a bit more.
9 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel Brennskag, on the map before you, can you
10 identify the location of the Pofalici team an observation post number 4?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If could you please identify where observation post 4 is located
13 on this map, with the numeral 4, please.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Okay. I see that you've placed a triangle next to the number 4.
16 Are you indicating that where the triangle is located is where
17 observation post 4 is located?
18 A. As accurate as is possible.
19 Q. Did you remain on observation post 4 the entire time, or was the
20 remainder of your team located somewhere else?
21 A. The team was located in a hired building in -- in -- and it was
22 only two, at the time, at the observation post.
23 Q. Okay. If you can please mark with a square where the remainder
24 of the team was when they were not on post?
25 A. Somewhere where I marked the circle.
1 Q. Okay. So where the circle is, is where the remainder of the team
2 was, and where the triangle is, is where the observation post 4 is; is
3 that correct for the record?
4 A. That's correct.
5 MS. CARTER: I'd ask for a screen shot of this map and tender it
6 into evidence.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
8 given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: This document shall be given Exhibit P542. Thank
10 you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MS. CARTER: And thank you to the usher, and I believe that will
13 be the last thing we'll be marking for today.
14 Q. Sir, you touched on this briefly when discussing the map itself,
15 but I'd like to talk a little bit further about a Pofalici team. Can you
16 please tell me, how many people were on this team?
17 A. It differed. It could be nine, or it could be seven. It
18 depended because someone was always going out from the team and someone
19 was always coming in. Old ones going out and new ones coming in.
20 Q. And you indicated that at time there is was a separation between
21 two people who were on the observation post and the remainder who stayed
22 behind. I'd like to focus first on the people who were left behind, not
23 on post. What was their job during the day?
24 A. Their job were to investigate. Their job were to patrol. And
25 their job were to have contact with officials, let's say, health
1 department, UN observer HQ, and also have some internal administration
3 Q. You indicated at times they were serving to investigate. What
4 were they investigating and how were they being called out to
6 A. Let's say if it was an impact inside Sarajevo, we were called out
7 by the UN observer HQ to investigate the -- the site and also to check if
8 there were some wounded. Sometimes we had to go to the hospital to see
9 the wounded or even go to see the dead ones.
10 Q. Now moving on to the second job. You indicated at times they
11 were patrolling. What area was the Pofalici team patrolling and how did
12 they choose that area?
13 A. The patrolling was decided from the UN observer HQ inside
15 restrictions of movement.
16 Q. And the remainder of the positions, how did people get chosen for
17 those positions?
18 A. I'm not sure what you mean.
19 Q. You indicated that others -- their job was to have contact with
20 officials such as the health department, the UN observer HQ and some
21 having internal administration jobs. How were people selected for those
23 A. We were always having a team leader, normally the most senior
24 officer, or he was normally chosen as a team leader from the UNMO or the
25 UN observer HQ.
1 Q. When you were selected for one of those positions did you remain
2 in that position the entire time you were in the Pofalici team or did you
3 alternate between those positions?
4 A. I was not team leader during my time in the Pofalici team.
5 Q. No, I'm speaking more if he were chosen to patrol or to
6 investigate or to do any of those roles, did you do that the entire time
7 or was it on a case-specific basis?
8 A. I did all the jobs on specific basis when I was told to do the
9 patrolling, told to investigate or going to the OP. I did all the job,
11 Q. All right. Now we'll move to the OP itself.
12 You indicated before that two persons served at the observation
13 post at a time. Can you please describe how the two people were selected
14 to go to the observation post per day?
15 A. There were certainly a turn-around list, so everyone had to go to
16 the observer post. Two people were there 24 hours a time, and then we
18 Q. Were the two people who served together, were they people who
19 always served in pairs or did the teams, themselves, alternate as well?
20 A. These alternated. I didn't say that in the team there were no
21 people from -- no officers from the same nation in same team, and we
22 tried to alternate who was working together also in the OP and also for
23 the investigations.
24 Q. Where specifically was this observation post, in what type of
1 A. It was a normal living house what was hired. The two elderly
2 couple who owned it, they placed themselves in the basement to be safe,
3 and we hired the ground floor, and the first floor where they had a
4 sleeping room, and on the balcony we had a -- on the balcony, we had the
5 binoculars to observe.
6 Q. Where could you observe from that location?
7 A. We could observe Igman, the Igman mountain, to the west; the
8 airport; Hrasnica; south-east -- south-west of the airport; we could
9 observe the hills overlooking Sarajevo eastwards towards Grbavica; just
10 downhill to the west, we couldn't see the old airport Rajlovac air field,
11 but we could see a part of the railway line going to Rajlovac railway
13 Q. You've indicated some areas such as eastwards towards Grbavica
14 and that type of thing. Just for ease of the record, what locations did
15 that -- that include?
16 A. I'm not sure what you mean.
17 Q. Okay. Sir, can you tell me, from that observation post, were you
18 able to see the hills of Dobrinja?
19 A. The hills above Dobrinja, yes, north of Dobrinja, yes.
20 Q. Were you able to see the Famos factory?
21 A. Yes, it was in the south-east of the airport not far away from
23 Q. Okay. Were you also able to see Ilidza?
24 A. Yes, of course. Yes, of course.
25 Q. Thank you. While you were on post, I want to talk specifically
1 about your work while serving there.
2 You had touched on before that you were seeing a lot of incoming
3 fire from the Bosnian Serb army into Sarajevo. Can you please tell me
4 what type of --
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: That is not precisely accurate. He had seen a
6 lot of incoming fire. It's a bit expansive.
7 MS. CARTER:
8 Q. Sir, what were you primarily seeing from observation post 4? Who
9 was firing and where were they firing?
10 A. We can see who was firing. We could see -- or mostly who was
11 firing, from where it was firing. We could see the impacts inside
14 Q. With specificity, what were you predominantly seeing in
15 observation post 4? Who was firing and what were they firing?
16 A. I saw both parties firing, but mostly the firing was incoming
17 into Sarajevo
18 inside Sarajevo
19 Q. If you can tell me --
20 A. Excuse me. But we could -- had problems to see the impacts from
21 the mortars fired from ABiH side.
22 Q. You indicated that you were seeing mostly the firing from the
23 BSA-held side. What were they firing?
24 A. They were firing artillery rounds, mortar rounds, modified air
1 Q. How often did you see incoming artillery rounds and mortar
3 A. In June, it was a very hectical [sic] time, and it could be up to
4 150 impacts incoming and impacts inside Sarajevo during 24 hours,
5 sometimes, and it differed. But most it could be up to 150.
6 Q. Were these 150 rounds hitting civilian targets, military targets,
7 both or neither?
8 A. In my view, both. Some of the impacts was obviously because of
9 the fighting between the parties, but some rounds were not impacting like
10 this, impacting -- and it was civilian targets in my view, in my opinion.
11 Q. What do you base this opinion on?
12 A. Because it could be single rounds and no -- at my knowledge, up
13 to now, no military targets, and we investigated the impacts, the team or
14 another team, and it was purely civilian wounded or killed.
15 Q. When an incoming round was being sighted, how was the observation
16 post able to register or log these things?
17 A. We were always two to agree what we saw and heard. If we didn't
18 agree, we didn't report. In this way, we were able to fairly accurate
19 point out the grids where the impact was -- where impact was.
20 Q. Once agreement was reached, what did you do next?
21 A. We wrote it down, and normally we reported by radio to the UNMO
22 HQ in the PTT building.
23 Q. How did you -- you said you reported it by radio normally. Why
24 only normally and why not always?
25 A. Because of our safety. We used normal radio with no codes or
1 very few codes, and we reported the grids of the impact from artillery;
2 and, of course, everyone was listening. And the -- in my military view,
3 we were sometimes observation post for the artillery of the -- from the
4 BSA side. And obviously the ABiH didn't like that. So they started to
5 fire at us.
6 Q. What do you mean that you were sometimes an observation post for
7 the artillery fire of the BSA?
8 A. To be accurate, at the ground, you need an observation post to
9 correct the first rounds or impact to hit the place you are supposed to
10 hit. If I can -- it's a bad explanation, but ...
11 Can I -- an artillery -- from where you fired an artillery, you
12 normally can't see the -- the goal.
13 Q. And if you can't see the goal, what do you do to correct that, if
14 you didn't hit it?
15 A. Then the observation post call back to the artillery and tell
16 them how to correct.
17 Q. Are you indicating that the UN called back the BSA and told them
18 how to correct?
19 A. No. Our intention was to mark or -- and send the grid where the
20 impact actually was, and the BSA, of course, they were listening and then
21 they could correct where to fire.
22 Q. Now I'd like to focus a little bit more about your communications
23 with the UN headquarters.
24 MS. CARTER: And I would like to bring up 65 ter 8594.
25 Q. Sir, can you tell me what is this document?
1 A. This document is a daily report made by the UNMO HQ to be sent to
3 Q. Okay. And can you please tell us what days events are being
4 recorded in the situation report?
5 A. In this situation report, everything that is reported from the
6 observation posts and from the patrols and from the investigations is put
7 down in a daily report.
8 Q. If can you clarify for us, I know the report is dated on
9 the 19th, but the subject line reads that it is referring to the 18th
10 of June, 1995. Which days events are being recorded?
11 A. It's the 18th that is reported.
12 MS. CARTER: I would now like to move to page 7 of this document.
13 Q. Sir, I'd like to note down at the bottom where it's talking about
14 the ceasefire violations and firing incidents, if you can please explain
15 to the Court what each of the columns represent in this?
16 A. I try. The column to the left is the date and the time the
17 incident happened; and it's time is local time. That's why the Bravo is
18 put behind the time.
19 Then the next column is from where and who is reporting. Let's
20 say line number 2 is stated OP 4. It was my observation post and you
21 also see the map grid behind the -- from where the report is sent.
22 The third column is what happened. I still used the line 2, for
23 example, 13 explosions.
24 Then column 4 is the origin of fire, from where the fire was
25 coming; and I use an example here, the line 2 again, unknown, because
1 here, then obviously OP 4, they didn't know exactly from where the origin
2 of fire.
3 Then the next column, impact target area, there is noted where
4 the impact was observed with a grid, example again, line 2. It's stated
5 that the impact, the 13 explosions, were impacted in Nedzarici; and you
6 have a map grid on that.
7 And the last column, remarks, and in my example, line 2, it is
8 nothing in line.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I didn't understand the first few columns. If the
10 witness could please explain them reading what is written there. He
11 didn't do so. He started reading what is written there when he talked
12 about 13 explosions. I don't understand those first two columns.
13 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I do that.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please.
15 THE WITNESS: Then I start with the first column.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is DTG
17 THE WITNESS: Date, time, group. 18 is the date; then we have
18 0035 Bravo.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: What does Bravo mean.
20 THE WITNESS: It's local time. Zero time in military terms, the
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
23 Sorry, what time is 0035 Bravo?
24 THE WITNESS: Is 35 minutes after midnight.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right.
1 THE WITNESS: And then the happen something going from that to
2 0120 Bravo.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's that? That is 20 past 1.00 in the morning.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And SG-2.
6 THE WITNESS: SG-2, it's the abbreviation of an OP or a team.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now what does that SG mean? Can you tell us what
8 SG stands for then.
9 THE WITNESS: I can't remember, sir. If you go to the line 2, OP
10 4, it's observation post 4.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mm-hmm. Yes, I understand that. But I want to
12 understand SG-2, and I want to understand SI-1, which is below OP 4.
13 THE WITNESS: It's either an observation post or a team.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And what does -- I can't see that. It's
16 THE WITNESS: That is a six-figure map degree within 100 metres,
17 within 100 metres accuracy.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I hope counsel understand what that means.
19 I don't.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Microphone not activated]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, sir, much.
22 Thank you, Madam Carter.
23 MS. CARTER: Thank you.
24 Q. Sir, in order to clarify a bit more, you keep saying there is a
25 grid reference that's demoted by the BP followed by six numbers, did the
1 observer teams and any other teams, did you have a standardised mapping
2 system that you were looking at?
3 A. Yes. This is a standard military map: 1:50.000.
4 Q. So when these grid references are being listed, it's off of a
5 map, not the map that we were looking at previously, but a map that was
6 unique to the UN post there; is that correct?
7 A. Yes. It's not the maps that had been shown here, it's a map with
8 the -- I call it standard military 1:50.000 map. Standard for every
9 military and it's also --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, just for purposes of clarification,
12 and I certainly don't mean to interrupt your examination, Ms. Carter.
13 My understanding is that the observation post was in a particular
14 area and remained there, and that the BP863599, which is the grid number
15 for OP 4 is the grid number where they always were located and that would
16 be found on a particular grid map which we have yet to see on -- it is a
17 static position to identify where the observation post was on a
18 particular military map, on a particular kind of map where they show grid
20 I hope that is of some help.
21 MS. CARTER:
22 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel Brennskag, can you confirm for the Court
23 whether that read something accurate. Is the fixed position of
24 observation post 4 at the grid reference 863599 that?
25 A. That is the fixed positions of OP 4 on the hills over Vitkovac.
1 Q. Now we also see in the impact and target area, there are also
2 appear to be grid references, but they don't contain six digits, only
3 four at times and then others are longer.
4 What is the difference between a shorter grid reference and a
5 longer grid reference?
6 A. A four-numbered grid reference is within a square of 1.000 metre;
7 a six-letter or numbered grid reference is within a square of 100 metres.
8 Q. Thank you, sir.
9 MS. CARTER: Does that assist Your Honours, or should I go
10 further with this line of questioning.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, ma'am. Just carry on with your examining.
12 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Sir, I'd now like to move to page 8 of the same document. And
14 just for clarification, I'd like to look at the registering of a single
15 explosion at a 11.46 local time. And I want to confirm that your
16 observation post registered a shot being fired from the Bosnian Serb side
17 into Dobrinja at that time.
18 Is that a correct reading --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we get the witness read, Madam Carter, instead
20 of you testifying? We don't know what are you looking at; 11.46 as I see
21 it, the origin is unknown.
22 MS. CARTER:
23 Q. Sir, can you please explain on the six listings that you had
24 indicated before, can you please explain what does the firing at 11.46
1 A. Could you please put the cursor on where you mean? Oh, yeah.
2 We are still on the 18th and is stated that at 11.46 local time,
3 it was observed from OP 4 one explosion from where, unknown, and the
4 impact was in Dobrinja on the grid reference Bravo Papa, 865564. And in
5 the explanation, it is stated that it fired from BSA side.
6 Q. If you have a remark that that shot was being fired from the
7 Bosnian Serb side, why is it listed as unknown about the origin of the
9 A. That's the procedure, because you couldn't -- or the OP, they
10 couldn't specify the grid reference from where, but they could see that
11 the fire came from the BSA-held side.
12 MS. CARTER: The Prosecution seeks to tender 65 ter 8594 into
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document shall be given
17 exhibit P543. Thank you, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 At that point, Madam Carter, would that would be a convenient
20 time for you?
21 MS. CARTER: Absolutely. I was about to change topics.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Carter.
2 MS. CARTER: May it please the Court.
3 Q. Sir, in your earlier testimony you've made reference on a few
4 occasions to modified air bombs, and I now want to turn your attention to
6 Can you please tell the Court what is a modified air bomb, to the
7 extent that you know?
8 A. Yes. At first, I have to admit that I'm not an expert on
9 modified air bombs. But I have learned that is a -- normally a ballistic
10 missile, which is put on rocket device.
11 Q. Sir, when you say "a ballistic missile," what specifically does
12 that mean?
13 A. I'll try to explain. A ballistic missile get its power from the
14 initial launching and not during its way to the target. If you put on a
15 rocket device, it can bring the missile longer and take it out of the
16 ballistic movement.
17 Q. You have indicated the ballistic missile gets its power from
18 initial launching. Are any of the other items that we've discussed here
19 in court today considered missiles? You discussed mortars, you discussed
20 artillery rounds. What is the nature of those items?
21 A. Those are ballistic missiles. A rifle bullet is also a ballistic
22 missile. Got its power from the initial firing only.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. How many times did you encounter a modified air
24 bomb in Sarajevo
25 A. It's hard to say: 4, 5, 6, yeah.
1 Q. And this is your personal experience; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. In your work with those certain instances, was there a
4 certain location where these were fired from?
5 A. Yes. As far as I can recall today, most of those air bomb,
6 modified air bombs, were fired from the Ilidza area.
7 Q. Who controlled Ilidza?
8 A. It was, at that time, BSA.
9 Q. Can you tell us anything about the accuracy of modified air
11 A. It depends on the launcher and the accuracy of putting on the
12 rocket devices. But normally those modified air bombs, they are not at
13 all useful as a normally weapon in normal war. It's not accurate --
14 accurate enough.
15 I can compare it maybe from the Middle East, where the -- and now
16 at this times, from Gaza
17 them to exact target.
18 Q. In your dealings with these modified air bombs, were you ever
19 responsible for the investigation of such items?
20 A. Yes. I especially remember two times. I was together with
21 colleagues to investigate impacts from modified air bombs.
22 Q. Can you describe the first of those occasions?
23 A. It was not that far away from the PTT building on the other side
24 of the main road going east to west in Sarajevo, in a place called
25 Alipasino Polje.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, just so we're clear, Your Honour, if
2 we could have a date. The reason because there are certain unscheduled
3 incidents that should not be led.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
5 MS. CARTER: Certainly and the Prosecution is aware of that. And
6 we will not be leading any detail to the reference that is being made.
7 Q. Sir, can you identify the date of the first encounter you had
8 with the modified air bomb.
9 A. Yes, I have my notes, and I think I correctly said it was the
10 22nd of June.
11 Q. Thank you, sir.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is this 1995?
13 THE WITNESS: 1995, yes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MS. CARTER:
16 Q. Now you began describing that investigation and you said that it
17 was a place called Alipasino Polje. If you could please describe a bit
18 further your investigation.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I do believe this is an
20 unscheduled incident.
21 MS. CARTER: The unscheduled incident is on 28 June 1995, and it
22 will be not be led. Two investigations that this witness was part of do
23 not entail that incident.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you saying, Madam Carter, that the incident of
25 the 22nd of June is a scheduled incident, the one that he is now talking
2 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour, it's neither scheduled nor
3 unscheduled. This is merely to show the wide-sped and systematic pattern
4 as described in the decision of the Court of 31 October 2008.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I tend to disagree. The decision speaks for
6 itself. This is being used for an improper purpose.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't remember the decision. What does the
8 decision say.
9 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, the decision was in relation to the
10 objection made by Defence counsel that leading any evidence of incidents
11 that are not scheduled would be in violation of the 73 bis decision.
12 This Court determined in paragraph 11 of the same decision that the
13 scheduled incidents listed in the indictment need to be read in
14 conjunction with paragraphs 40 to 46 of the indictment; and that's
15 specifically why this witness is being called, which refer to a
16 protracted campaign of shelling and sniping upon Sarajevo, resulting in
17 the killing and wounding of thousands of citizens -- I'm sorry, thousands
18 of civilians. It follows that in order to prove these broad allegation,
19 the Prosecution must be able to lead evidence of a general nature related
20 to the shelling and sniping campaign against civilians outside of the
21 incidents listed in schedules A and B of the indictment.
22 So we're calling in relation to that specific purpose as opposed
23 to any sort of scheduled or unscheduled incident.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: This is grounds that we've been through before.
25 Both incidents of the 22nd of June and one on July 1995 are mentioned in
1 the 65 ter summary, which is what the Trial Chamber referred to in the
2 paragraph above.
3 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I would --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand what you're saying,
5 Mr. Guy-Smith.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Which is -- which is this is -- that it is
7 recognised by the Chamber; that this is it unscheduled incident. I'm
8 referring specifically to the incident of the 22nd of June.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. Yes, Madam Carter, did say, yes, it is not
10 scheduled. But she is saying that the decision said that the Prosecution
11 is entitled to lead evidence on unscheduled incidents to show the
12 widespread and systematic nature of the sniping or -- or of the attack.
13 And I don't have the decision before me, so I can only rely on what she
14 tells me, and I believe her.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: What she quoted from the decision is not -- is
16 not inaccurate. Which is --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: That it's accurate.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: If it's not inaccurate, it must be accurate.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we go to paragraph 10 of the decision, it
22 "The Trial Chamber, therefore, agrees with the submission of the
23 Prosecution that the words 'unscheduled incidents' as stated in
24 Rule 73 bis decision refers to unscheduled incidents described as such in
25 the 65 ter witness summaries."
1 It continues, but that is the point that is of importance.
2 The Chamber then holds, and I go down to paragraph 15, under
4 "For the forgoing reasons and pursuant to Rules 54 of the rules,
5 the Trial Chamber decides that the term 'unscheduled incidents' in the
6 Rule 73 bis decision shall be interpreted as those unscheduled incidents
7 as such in the Prosecution's 65 ter witness summaries."
8 And this is an incident which is described in the 65 ter witness
9 summary. Because it is described in the 65 ter witness summary which is
10 not the situation we have been in with other incidents it falls within
11 this prohibition.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Within which prohibition? You say for the
13 foregoing reasons and pursuant to Rule 54 of the rules, the Trial Chamber
14 decides that the term unscheduled incidents in the Rule 73 bis decision
15 shall be interpreted as those unscheduled incidents as such in the
16 Prosecution's 65 ter witness summaries.
17 Now, how do you read this paragraph in?
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: We have previously been in the situation where
19 the Prosecution has led unscheduled incidents which are not contained in
20 the 65 ter summaries.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mm-hmm.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: And as to those incidents, the Chamber -- the
23 Chamber, over objection, made the determination because they were not in
24 the 65 ter summaries they were incidents which, in fact, could be led.
25 It has been our interpretation that based upon this decision although we
1 had some difficulty what was said before by virtue of the underlying
2 decision that we have been fighting with regard to unscheduled incidents
3 in the first instance, that where the Prosecution has identified an
4 incident in a 65 ter summary, which is unscheduled, it is not to be led.
5 MS. CARTER: If the Prosecution could be allowed to respond to
6 for clarity for the Court.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes ma'am.
8 MS. CARTER: Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith indications regards to that
9 rule, he is correct. However, in the 65 ter summary of Brennskag, it
10 falls into three categories.
11 The first paragraph is noted as just basically biographical
12 information; it doesn't have any sort of heading.
13 The second is a shelling and artillery fire; that is what we are
14 we're discussing here, and it reads, I quote:
15 "The witness will speak about use of modified air bombs by the
16 VRS. He will testify that he saw four or five modified air bombs," and
17 we go on from there which is the evidence being led.
18 The third category in the 65 ter summary indicates unscheduled
19 shelling incident, the TV building incident of 28 June 1995.
20 This Court, in its decision of 31 October 2008, specifically
21 identified that those items that are listed as unscheduled incidents, in
22 this case, the 28 June 1995
23 certainly have no intention of doing that.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Talk to the 22nd of June, ma'am, what is the
25 status of the 22nd of June incident.
1 MS. CARTER: The 22nd June incident falls under the category
2 shelling and artillery. It has not been denoted as an unscheduled
3 incident in violation of the Court's 73 bis order; so we are talking
4 about apples and oranges here. We are not leading the evidence that has
5 been specifically prohibited by the 31 October decision, but we are
6 leading evidence in regards to shelling and artillery fire to show the
7 widespread and systematic shelling of Sarajevo.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, you see --
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me -- excuse me, Your Honour.
10 I think quite frankly the Prosecution is playing word games to
11 put it simply.
12 Schedule A of the indictment contains nine incidents. Those
13 incidents do not include the 22nd of June.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: They do include the 1st of July, which is another
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, the 1st of July incident would be a
18 scheduled incident that they can lead.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: There will be absolutely not objection, and I
20 will not be rising with regard to that incident.
21 With regard to the 22nd of June, it is an unscheduled incident.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. But then Madam Carter read a paragraph --
23 the very first paragraph she read, she said that -- she said that they --
24 she read something to the effect that the Chamber holds -- okay, let me
25 have a look at it. What paragraph was that? The first paragraph that
1 you read, ma'am.
2 MS. CARTER: Out of the decision, Your Honour, that would be
3 paragraph 11.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is overruled.
6 MS. CARTER: If it pleases the Court.
7 Q. Sir, now we're moving back to your investigation of 22 June of --
8 I'm sorry, of 1995. As much time has passed, if you can begin your
9 description again: What was the incident that you investigated on 22
10 June of 1995?
11 A. It was an incident of an impact in Alipasino Polje.
12 Q. How did you become aware of the incident?
13 A. Normally I was not at the observation post, so the team was
14 called from UN HQ, told us about the incident, approximately the map
15 grid, and gave us order to investigate the incident.
16 Q. What did you find when you arrived on site?
17 A. It was just in Alipasino Polje. It's very high buildings. And
18 outside one of the buildings, it's - what you call it - tarmac road,
19 paved road, and the rocket or grenade has landed on the paved road; and
20 it was one young, very young girl who was killed.
21 When we arrived, almost simultaneously the Bosnian police
22 investigation team also arrived.
23 Q. Let me clarify just one moment.
24 Now, you have indicated that this was a rocket or grenade. Is it
25 a rocket, a grenade, or modified air bomb that's at issue?
1 A. When we started the investigation, it was fairly soon clear that
2 this was a sort of modified air bomb.
3 Q. And what was your role in this investigation?
4 A. Me and my colleague was to clarify the direction from where the
5 projectile was fired and to see how -- which -- what kind of projectile,
6 and also to testify what was the impact of the incident, wounded, killed
7 and so on.
8 Q. Now, you've indicated that it was you and your colleague's job to
9 clarify the direction from where the projectile was fired. Were you able
10 to determine that?
11 A. Yes. It's a certain method to find from where, but it's
12 difficult to -- to find exact place of firing, of course, how far the
13 distance, especially when it's not a -- especially when it's a rocket.
14 Q. Do you have any indication that it was fired by the Bosnian side,
15 the Bosnian Serb side, or a third party?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, I think that's a very leading
18 Why don't you ask the witness to tell you where it came from,
19 according to his determination.
20 MS. CARTER:
21 Q. Sir, where did the air bomb come from, according to your
23 A. At the spot we couldn't decide, but together with other
24 observations, not from me because I was not on the OP, the UN observer HQ
25 as far as I know today determined that this was coming from BSA-held
2 Q. And now I would like to move to the second investigation that
3 were a part of on 1 July, 1995
4 Can you please describe that investigation?
5 A. We were called on, as the same procedure. This time it was a
6 modified air bomb landing in a garden. It's -- I don't remember the
7 name, because it is very difficult. But it's a little bit north of the
8 main road going east -- west-east in Sarajevo and just east of -- of the
9 PTT building.
10 Q. What did you find when you arrived?
11 A. Huge crater, and the building that belongs to the garden or were
12 damaged, especially the -- the roof and the windows. The Sarajevan
13 police also arrived, and we were soon clarifying there were no injured
14 and no killed.
15 MS. CARTER: I'd like to bring up 65 ter 1365.01.
16 Q. Sir, do you recognise the image before you?
17 A. Yes, that's the spot. That's the building. That's the roof
19 Q. Okay.
20 MS. CARTER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 1365.01 into
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P544.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 MS. CARTER: I would now like to bring up the image 65 ter 1365.
1 Q. Sir, do you recognise this image?
2 A. Yes, it's the same place. I see the ladder. I don't see the
3 house. And I see not a good picture of the crater behind the first tree,
4 between the first tree, I see and the house.
5 Q. Okay. Sir, were there any military targets anywhere near this
7 A. I'm not sure, but as far as I know, there were no military
8 positions there. That's -- I say I'm not sure.
9 MS. CARTER: I would seek to tender 65 ter 1365 into evidence.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P545.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MS. CARTER:
15 Q. Sir, the last question that I have for you is: Which sides of
16 this conflict were in possession of modified air bombs, to your
18 A. To my knowledge, the BSA had in their possessions and possibility
19 to use modified air bombs. In my knowledge, I have never seen and never
20 heard that the ABiH inside Sarajevo
22 Q. I thank you for your time and your evidence.
23 MS. CARTER: And I seek to pass the witness.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Carter.
25 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
2 Could we please have P542 up on the screen.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
4 Q. While it's coming up.
5 Good morning, sir. How are you this morning?
6 A. I'm fine. Thank you.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if that could be enlarged, please.
8 Q. You testified that this map identifies, if I'm not mistaken, two
9 separate places, one where there's a triangle and the letter 4, which was
10 your observation post; and the second being where you were, I take it,
11 either billeted or working when you were not at the observation post;
13 A. Yes, the circle was the accommodation, yes.
14 Q. If you were to --
15 I have a quick question for the -- for the Madam Registrar, if we
16 are to make a new mark on this now, can we give it a new number?
18 Looking at this particular map, on this map, close to your
19 observation post, there was a T-55 tank that was being utilised by the
20 ABiH army; correct?
21 A. That's correct. On our way to the OP, we could see, observe, the
22 T55 tank.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: With the help of Mr. Usher, if could you mark the
24 location of the T-55 tank, using the colour red, please.
25 A. My memory is -- but it should be somewhere here.
1 Q. Okay. Could you mark that circle with the letter T and the
2 numbers 55.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Now apart from the T-55, which you have noted on the map, looking
5 at this particular area, do you, as you sit here today, recall any of the
6 other areas that were army installations of the ABiH?
7 A. I'm not sure what you mean. I knew several places where they had
8 their offices.
9 Q. Okay. Could you, once again, using the red, mark the first of
10 those areas where you knew they had their offices.
11 A. I -- I can't recall because it was several places.
12 Q. Can you mark, as you're looking at the map, any of the areas
13 where you recall that they had headquarters?
14 A. It was a headquarters somewhere in a building here.
15 Q. Okay. Could you mark that with a "ABiH 1," please.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. And apart from that area, do you recall since you mentioned there
18 were several, do you recall any other areas where you, in your capacity
19 as an UNMO observer saw ABiH facilities?
20 A. I knew they had mortars in an area where there was car wreckage.
21 I'm not sure exactly where it was, but it was somewhere here.
22 Q. Could you mark the area that you have just designated with a
23 circle with the letter "ABiH M," for "mortars."
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. And apart from those two areas, as you sit here today, do you
1 recall any other places where there were ABiH facilities or headquarters?
2 A. In all respect, it would be too -- it would be to speculate
3 because it's too long ago.
4 Q. Okay, I don't want you to speculate. As you sit here today, and
5 as you look at that particular document, could you tell the Chamber to
6 the best of your recollection - I don't want you to draw anything - how
7 many other ABiH facilities you recall being observing during the period
8 of time that you were stationed at observation post 4? How many, as
9 opposed to why they were?
10 A. Excuse me, do you mean offices or positions?
11 Q. Well, let's do offices first.
12 A. I can remember, I was in a meeting on two offices. But I can't
13 recall exactly where they were. Some were here. It was an office.
14 Q. Could you mark with the red pen an approximate area since that --
15 A. That is very approximate.
16 Q. Understood.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Could you mark that with the letters "ABiH 3."
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. You said there were two offices. Did you go to two offices in
21 the same location, or was there another location that you also met?
22 A. Yeah, but I don't remember.
23 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
24 Apart from the offices, you mentioned the issue of positions; and
25 independent of the question of confrontation lines which have you been
1 kind enough to supply us with in a previous map, when you were using the
2 term positions are you meaning something apart from the designation of
3 where the confrontation lines were?
4 A. No. I can recall the position of the mortars, as I have marked.
5 Q. Okay. In addition to the position of the mortars, do you recall
6 any other positions that the ABiH had that you could mark on this
7 particular map during the time that you were at OP 4?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could have that marked as -- moved into
11 evidence as defendant's next in order.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
13 given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D44.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH:
17 Q. You have mentioned that your movement was restricted by the ABiH,
18 in terms of areas where you could go.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could have -- I believe it's 541, I think
20 is the -- P541, I believe, is the original unmarked, up on the screen,
21 please. I'm sorry, it's 540. Thank you, Chad
22 Q. And while we're waiting for that map to come up, when you were
23 receiving your training with regard to observations, were you at any
24 point in time given as calculations to use either the speed of sound or
25 the speed of light, in terms of how fast the speed of sound is, or the
1 speed of light is?
2 A. I'm not sure what you mean.
3 Q. Okay. In terms of trying to make a determination of origin of
4 fire or origin of impact, were you ever supplied the actual speed of
5 sound, as a mechanical formula, a mathematical formula that could you use
6 for purposes of determining where something came from?
7 A. No. We didn't have that devices as observers.
8 Q. Okay. With regard to the speed of sound -- I'm sorry, with
9 regard to the speed of light, were you ever given the mathematical
10 formula of the speed of light as something to utilise as an observer, in
11 terms of the point of origin or the point of impact?
12 A. I have to say no.
13 Q. Okay. Did you ever receive any information as an observer with
14 regard to the speed that a mortar shell would travel?
15 A. Not at that time, in Sarajevo
16 Q. Well, same question with regard to air bombs. Were you given any
17 information concerning the -- the calculated speed with which an air bomb
19 A. I was not given that information in -- during my time in
21 Q. Were you given any information with regard to trajectory paths as
22 a general rule, with regard to, first of all, mortars in -- in an attempt
23 to assist you with regard to your job as an observer?
24 A. That was a knowledge that I had as officer from the Norwegian
1 Q. Is that knowledge which you all shared with each other? Did you
2 have a chart or some kind of other document that assisted you with regard
3 to trajectories and arcs and the like?
4 A. I'm not sure, but I -- in -- as -- in my remembering, I think the
5 UN gave us a pamphlet of some information. But I can't remember exactly.
6 Q. Okay. As you sit here today, you have some memory about that,
7 but you're not positive about that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. With regard to the issue of, once again, trajectory paths,
10 were you supplied with any information concerning the arc of trajectory
11 as a related to the distance from which a particular projectile was
13 A. Yes. If I understand you correctly, regarding ballistic
14 missiles, during the time we were investigating an impact, the metal, the
15 angle of the impact could tell us approximately from where and the
17 Q. Is it your testimony that the -- the angle of impact could
18 indicate the distance of the trajectory?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. When it was a ballistic missile.
22 Q. I see that the map is up on the screen now, so I'd like to direct
23 your attention to the map.
24 Looking at that map, and I know it is it kind of small, so if
25 it's a bit small we can perhaps try to enlarge it.
1 But, first of all, looking at the map as it sits there right now,
2 are you able to identify any of the areas that you were not allowed to go
3 into by the ABiH since you indicated they restricted your movement?
4 A. Yes. For me it's easy because you are rejected to go to any
5 places near the confrontation line.
6 Q. Okay. With the help of the usher then.
7 Once again, using the red pen, could you mark on this document
8 those areas that you were not allowed to go to by the ABiH?
9 A. In all respect, I made briefly a drawing of the confrontation
10 line, and --
11 Q. Would that be helpful to you, in terms of what I have just asked
13 A. As I said, we were rejected to go anywhere near or close to the
14 confrontation line.
15 Q. Okay. I believe the confrontation line was -- map was P541.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could have that up on the screen.
17 Q. You've used the term -- the map will come newspaper a moment.
18 You used the term "near," and since that term is potentially one which is
19 relative, as you're looking at this map right now, where have you drawn
20 the confrontation lines, can you indicate how close you were allowed to
21 get to the confrontation line, in terms of metres or kilometres, first of
22 all, before we place any marks on the map? Could you tell us about how
23 far you could go?
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. I see you have drawn what seems to be a -- ah. You have drawn an
1 arrow which is bisecting a line.
2 A. Sorry, and it's approximate.
3 Q. I understand.
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Okay. Would it be fair to say that the areas that -- the area
6 that is before the -- the straight line that you have drawn is the area
7 in which you were allowed to go and anything outside of that is an area
8 where you were not allowed to go. So you could actually draw a circle,
9 if you were to draw a circle around that whole area, would that be a fair
10 representation of those areas where you were not allowed to go?
11 A. Yes, approximately.
12 Q. Understood. Could you put somewhere the following two words, "no
13 go" on the map?
14 A. [Marks]
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry could we have that -- could we have
16 that admitted as defendant's next in order, Your Honour. I'm sorry my
17 voice dropped.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. It's admitted. May it please be given
19 an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D45.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't need that anymore. Thank you.
23 If we could now have P543. I will be next asking for P543 and
24 page 8.
25 Q. While we're waiting for that come up, sir, you mentioned the
1 Famos factory in your testimony. Could you tell us if you know what was
2 being manufactured at the Famos factory?
3 A. At that time, I didn't know.
4 Q. Did you, as a matter of practice, have daily discussions with the
5 other UNMOs who were at other observation points, so that you all kept
6 each other abreast of what was going on, independent of the radio traffic
7 that you told us about?
8 A. Not regularly, but we had -- the team leaders had meetings in the
9 HQ on regular basis and passed on the informations after that.
10 Q. And some of the information that was passed on; for example, the
11 troop strength of the ABiH?
12 A. No. Not as far as I know.
13 Q. Did you at any point in time receive information as to what the
14 troop strength of the ABiH was during the time that you were in Sarajevo
15 A. Do you mean the entire ABiH?
16 Q. I mean those people who were billeted and fighting in the area in
17 which you were observing.
18 A. No, I didn't get any exact figures.
19 Q. Did you get guesstimate figures from any intelligence sources at
21 A. No.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could have page 8 up, please.
23 Q. You had been asked a question about the time of 11.46 Bravo, and
24 I'd like to talk to you about a number of entries that are on this page
25 to see whether or not we can make some sense of what was occurring.
1 If we are to start at the time of, let's say, 10.50 Bravo, which
2 is an entry of OP 4. It indicate there is two explosions; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Then 23 minutes later, there is another entry; correct?
5 A. Which time?
6 Q. 11.13.
7 A. I don't see the whole screen.
8 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. If you were to look -- if you were to look on --
9 it's five lines down. It says 1113 Bravo.
10 A. 11.13, yes.
11 Q. There's another explosion; correct?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay. Now, between 11.30 and 12.15 there seem to be a number of
14 outgoing mortar rounds; correct?
15 A. It seems to be, yes.
16 Q. Okay. And the entry of 11.46 that you have noted is -- is an
17 entry that occurs during the period of time that there's firing between
18 11.30 and 12.15 outgoing BiH fire; right?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Okay. Now if we continue to go down, there are seen a series of
21 what I'm assuming, based on this, are unknown firings between 11.46 and
22 12.01; and it seems then if we continue down we have entries at 11.49,
23 12.15, 12.50, 13.05, 13.00 and 13.00 to 13.15.
24 So there seems to be -- if we go even further, but it seems
25 what's going on there is a battle. I'm asking because it seems there is
1 firing coming in and there's firing going out?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that's a kind of thing that you were talking about before,
4 when you said there were rounds that you observed coming in and there are
5 rounds that you observed going out.
6 With regard to the mortars that were going out, could you tell
7 the Chamber what size they were, if you know?
8 A. Please explain.
9 Q. Well, what size of mortar was it that was being used by the BiH.
10 A. Let me clarify the date of 18th, I'm not sure if I was on the
11 observation post. But mostly, as a general, I know that the outgoing
12 mortars was around 80 millimetres.
13 Q. Okay. When you said you were not on the observation post, if you
14 had been on the observation post, were you able to visually make a
15 determination of a size of the a mortar shell by seeing it launched or in
16 the air?
17 A. No, not seeing it launched in the area. But as I said, we were
18 aware of mortars positions for ABiH in a junkyard for cars. And by the
19 sound of outgoing, we could estimate it was around 80-millimetre mortars.
20 Q. Is that training you received - and by training I don't mean
21 school training but, rather, experience that you obtained while observing
22 that the sound of an 80-millimetre was distinct from the sound of, let's
23 say, for example, a 50-millimetre mortar?
24 A. Yes, estimate was by experience.
25 Q. Okay. Did your unit in OP 4 file a report every day?
1 A. I can't tell what my colleagues did. But normally, when I was
2 there, we filed the incidents we were observing, yes.
3 Q. Was it just as important to recognise and to note a date where
4 there was no activity as a date where there was activity for purposes of
5 monitoring what was occurring?
6 A. It was not important to -- to file if nothing happened. We filed
7 the incidents and what was happen.
8 Q. With regard to the issue of cease-fire, did anybody at
9 headquarters --
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Are we okay or are we having some trouble.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You go ahead while we sort ourselves.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH:
13 Q. Did anybody at headquarters indicate to you, your unit that it
14 was important to know when there was not any mortar activity, because it
15 would indicate that the cease-fire was holding?
16 A. I'm not sure if I understand you right, but if no reports, either
17 by radio or afterwards by written, there was nothing to -- there were no
18 incidents and no firing.
19 Q. Okay. But what I'm asking, is was there a methodology to -- with
20 regard to your unit, was there a methodology whereby headquarters would
21 be aware of the fact that they had a successful day. There'd been no
22 firing which they then noted down somewhere. All of the observation post
23 report in, Hey good day, no firing. The cease-fires is holding. Because
24 that was just as important as when it wasn't; right?
25 A. It's obvious when no reports, either by radio or written
1 statements, no firing.
2 Q. So I understand, the practice of the United Nations, with regard
3 to observations was, as follows: If no reports were entered, it was a
4 day of peace?
5 A. Yes, but I --
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. You mentioned --
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm done with that exhibit. Thank you.
10 Q. You mentioned - if I'm not mistaken - fortunately you were out of
12 colleagues had been seized or detained.
13 A. Yes. I went out to Pale early morning, the 24th of May, and it
14 was -- and all my colleagues were detained except of the team leader who
15 was on leave earlier and was not there.
16 Q. And were all of your colleagues detained in response to something
17 that had happened?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what was that?
20 A. I think the 25th or 26th of May, NATO first air-strike on BSA
21 ammunition bunkers took place.
22 Q. And were -- to your knowledge, were your colleagues detained
23 before the NATO strike?
24 A. Afterwards. They were detained nearby ammunition bunkers and so
25 on, to -- obviously to -- in order that the NATO would not go further
1 with the air-strike. This is my opinion.
2 Q. Okay. Did your colleagues at some point get released?
3 A. Yes. I think the last of my colleagues in my team in Pale was
4 released 19th of June, I think.
5 Q. Okay. And are you personally aware of who participated in
6 effectuating the release of your colleagues? And by that, I mean were
7 you aware of the negotiations that occurred at higher levels in attempt
8 to get your colleagues, and ultimately to get your colleagues released.
9 A. It was on high level in the UN and high level on the BSA
10 authorities or -- yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. As far as I know.
13 Q. Do you know -- do you know who ordered the detention of your
15 A. No.
16 Q. And apart from the BSA authorities, do you have any personal
17 knowledge - which all I'm asking for here - of any other authorities
18 apart from the BSA authorities being involved in the negotiation of the
19 successful release of those individuals?
20 A. Not as I remember today.
21 Q. Fair enough.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I could have but a moment.
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank goodness for those about me.
25 Q. With regard to the issue of mortars once again, and by that I'm
1 referring to the ABiH army mortar, were you aware of any mortars being
2 moved from one position to another position during the time that you were
3 an observer?
4 A. We knew that, and also of experience, that when you are firing a
5 mortar round, or mortars, you move to another position. We were aware of
6 that -- the ABiH did so also, but I didn't see with my bare eyes those
8 Q. Would the movement by the ABiH of their mortar position have been
9 something that would have been transmitted over the radio before you
10 decided to have radio silence concerning mortar issues.
11 So by that what I mean is within -- within UNMO, if mortars were
12 moved from position 1 to 2 by the ABiH, is that something that would have
13 gone on over the radio so that the observers would be in a position to
14 know where to focus their sight lines with regard to either incoming or
15 outgoing fire?
16 A. In my time as observer, I never heard radio communication about
17 that matter.
18 Q. During your time as an observer, did you receive any documentary
19 evidence concerning that matter; a written report, for example?
20 A. Yes. A British unit with devices to spot the mortar velocity,
21 height, and so on with the rounds were posted not as far -- not far from
22 our OP, and once we saw a sketch declaring from where it has been fired,
23 the impacts, and so on.
24 Q. Was that sketch made part of your daily report?
25 A. No, this was purely occasionally because we once visited this
1 unit. We didn't see this report regularly. I don't know if the HQ had
3 Q. And was the British unit that you're referring to an UNPROFOR
4 unit as opposed to an UNMO units?
5 A. UNPROFOR unit.
6 Q. And did you share information with UNPROFOR regarding incoming
7 and outgoing fire?
8 A. That was the matter of the HQ in PTT.
9 Q. Okay. With regard to your own personal experience, did you
10 personally obtain any information from UNPROFOR to assist you in your job
11 as an observer? And by "assist you," I'm referring to such issues as
12 mortar placement and mortar movement.
13 A. In my time as observer inside Sarajevo, I -- we had assistance
14 from UNPROFOR, but I can't recognise that we got that kind of information
15 or assistance, no.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
19 MS. CARTER: I have a very brief redirect on two topics.
20 Re-examination by Ms. Carter:
21 The first one, you were asked today at page 39 about seeing a
22 T-55 tank near your observation post "utilised," was the word that was
24 Did you ever see in your time at OP 4 that tank ever fire?
25 A. No, not at all. It looks like it was abandoned. But I didn't
1 see or hear anything that could tell me that it was firing from that
2 tank, and it was never moved, as far as I was travelling to and fro OP 4.
3 Q. The final topic I'd like to discuss with you is you were asked,
4 beginning on page 43 about the information you received and how you were
5 tracking or had the possibility of tracking the trajectory or the origin
6 of fire or origin of impact of the missiles that you were seeing there in
8 First off, if you hadn't received the items listed by Mr. Smith,
9 what did you use in order to determine the origin of fire or the origin
10 of impact?
11 A. Normally, on some places, we saw the origin of fire. Actually,
12 in the east of Sarajevo
13 positions of the BSA.
14 We could hear the firing. Sometimes we only heard and saw the
15 impact, and then we couldn't say the origin of firing. They were firing
16 with heavy machine-guns and also anti-aircraft guns towards Igman and the
17 Igman road; and they use ammunition that have a light during the
18 trajectory, so we could see the origin of firing, and we could see the
20 The modified air bombs, we could see the smoke tail from the
21 origin of firing and almost halfway, all the way to the target or to the
23 Q. In your answer you used the term "they"; specifically that "they
24 were firing."
25 Can you please tell me who "they" is?
1 A. Yes. Mostly this was from BSA-held areas, and we, as I tried to
2 explain, especially one place we could see by our binoculars the
3 artillery positions.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MS. CARTER: I have no further questions of the witness.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 We will take a break and return at half past 12.00.
8 Court adjourned.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Lieutenant, that brings us to the conclusion of
13 your testimony. Thank you very much for taking the time to come and
14 testify. You are now excused. You may stand down and please travel well
15 back home.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
20 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution does not
21 have another witness for today. The next witness will be available
22 Wednesday morning.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. In that event -- on Wednesday
24 morning. We will stand adjourned until Wednesday morning, at 9.00 in the
25 morning, in Courtroom I.
1 Court adjourned.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.32 p.m.
3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of
4 February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.