Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3385

 1                           Wednesday, 11 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Could we please have

12     appearances for today, starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, counsel.

14     Appearing for the Prosecution today, Mark Harmon, Lorna Bolton, and

15     Carmela Javier.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

17             And for the Defence.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, and good

19     morning to everyone, all the participants in the proceedings.

20     Mr. Perisic is represented today by Tina Drolec; and Daniela Tasic, case

21     manager; and Novak Lukic.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             Mr. Harmon.

24             MR. HARMON:  Ms. Bolton will lead the witness, Your Honour.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  The first witness for

Page 3386

 1     the Prosecution will be Afeza Karacic.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, ma'am.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will you please make the declaration.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS: AFEZA KARACIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may now sit down.

11             Madam Bolton.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           Examination by Ms. Bolton:

14        Q.   Good morning.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   Ms. Karacic, could you indicate for us your full name, please.

17        A.   My name is Afeza Karacic.

18        Q.   And what is your date of birth?

19        A.   The 3rd of May, 1963.

20        Q.   And although your first name is of Afeza, do you have a nickname?

21        A.   My name is Afeza, and my nickname is Hafiza.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now I understand during the siege of Sarajevo you were

23     living in the city; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   And what part of the city were you living in?

Page 3387

 1        A.   Well, in the mid-section of the town.  The part of the town is

 2     called Otoka.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  I wonder, Madam Registrar, if you could bring up

 4     65 ter 8600, please.

 5        Q.   While we're waiting for that, ma'am, if you could just think back

 6     to the events of November 23rd, 1994.  Do you recall that day?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And did something of significance happen to you that day?

 9        A.   Yes, something terrible happened to me.

10        Q.   And what was that, ma'am?

11        A.   On that day, I was wounded, and my life entirely changed from

12     that day onward.

13        Q.   What were you doing when you were wounded?

14        A.   I was riding on a tram.

15        Q.   And what was it that wounded you?

16        A.   A bullet.

17        Q.   Okay.  Before you, you should see on your monitor a photograph.

18     Do you recognise the area in the photograph?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   What area is that?

21        A.   That is the area or the spot where I was at the moment when I was

22     hit.

23        Q.   Okay.  Can you assist us.

24             MS. BOLTON:  Mr. Usher, could you assist the witness.  She has

25     some difficulty with mobility, so I'm hoping she can use the pen.

Page 3388

 1        Q.   Would you be able to make an X or a circle at the area where the

 2     tram was when you were hit with the bullet.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  I think Mr. --

 4        Q.   Okay.  You have put a dot there and that's, for the record, in

 5     the area in front of the -- the yellow building which I understand is the

 6     Holiday Inn; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  Approximately that's the spot.  Maybe a bit further down.

 8     I'm not sure how to describe this.

 9        Q.   Okay.  In terms of we're talking about it being possibly further

10     down, where -- which direction was the tram travelling in terms of the

11     photo in front of you.  Would it from right to left, or left to right?

12        A.   From right to left.

13        Q.   Okay.  And so when you talk it possibly being further down, are

14     you talking about it being possibly farther to the left from the dot you

15     drew, or possibly farther to the right?

16        A.   Left of -- from the dot.

17        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember approximately what time of day it was when

18     this incident occurred?

19        A.   Yes, I do.  It was in the afternoon, about 4.00 p.m., 4.30.

20        Q.   And what had you been doing before you got on the tram?

21        A.   I went with my sister downtown.  We were looking for food, and it

22     was already in the afternoon hours, so it was getting late; and we were

23     to travel far, so we decided to get on the tram which had started service

24     about an hour earlier.  So I suggested that we get on the tram because we

25     couldn't carry all the groceries that we had bought, so when we arrived

Page 3389

 1     at that spot I just felt a sting in my arm.  The tram kept on going to

 2     the point from where they could evacuate us.

 3        Q.   Let's just --

 4        A.   And --

 5        Q.   I'm sorry, I thought you were finished.  Please continue.

 6        A.   At that point, I squatted and -- because I was standing when I

 7     was hit, and when I tried to get up, I realised that I had no control of

 8     my right arm.  I told my sister to help me, because I no longer had an

 9     arm, and when they started to evacuating us from the tram, I had to step

10     over a dead body, a man who had been killed and then we were taken to the

11     hospital.  That's how it was.

12        Q.   Can I just take you through some of that a little bit more

13     slowly.

14             First of all, when you were on the tram, you said you were

15     standing.  Which direction were you facing?

16        A.   I was facing the back of the tram.

17        Q.   Okay.  And you mentioned something about being standing.  Were

18     you holding on to anything to keep your balance as the tram was moving?

19        A.   Yes.  I was holding on to a pole on the tram.

20        Q.   So --

21        A.   That's how I had my arm.

22        Q.   So for the record it should indicate that the witness raised her

23     right arm up, to indicate that she was holding something.

24             And can you just show us on your body where the bullet struck

25     you?

Page 3390

 1        A.   Yes, I can.  Right here.

 2        Q.   So you're showing, for the record, your right shoulder, towards

 3     the front of the shoulder.  And can you show us where the bullet exited,

 4     if it exited?

 5        A.   Right here.

 6        Q.   And, for the record, the witness is showing an area just above

 7     her elbow on her right arm.

 8             Were there any military vehicles near the tram at the time that

 9     you were hit, as far as you could tell?

10        A.   No.  I didn't see any vehicles.

11        Q.   Okay.  And after -- you indicated that after the bullet hit you,

12     you got down.  What was everybody else doing on the tram?

13        A.   Well, everybody tried to seek cover.  People lay on the ground.

14     They started screaming.  There was panic.  It was terrible.  You couldn't

15     really go anywhere from there.  You were sort of boxed in there.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Mr. Usher, I abandoned you there.  I don't

18     think I'm going need your assistance again with the pen at the moment.

19        Q.   Now, I understand -- I'm going come back to your injuries in a

20     moment ma'am.  I understand that you occasion in the summer of 2006 to

21     meet with an OTP investigator named Barry Hogan.  Do you recall that?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   Okay.  And I'm going to show you a video in a moment and ask you

24     if you recognise that.

25             MS. BOLTON:  And, Madam Registrar, that would be 65 ter 0 --

Page 3391

 1     04333.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you go it that 65 ter, ma'am, what do you

 3     want to do with the one that is on the screen?

 4             MS. BOLTON:  If it could be marked as an exhibit at this point,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you like to do -- are we going to see just

 7     that dot.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  The witness does have difficulty writing with her

 9     right hand, so I was going to suggest that maybe Mr. Usher could please a

10     T or something next to it.  I don't know that the witness can make that

11     mark based on our meeting yesterday.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine.  Depends on what your opposite number says.

13             Mr. Lukic, will we all remember what that dot is?

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right, I don't have a problem

15     with it remaining as it is; and based on that, and what's in the

16     transcript, we can identify the spot.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             Do you want that tendered in.

19             MS. BOLTON:  Please.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

21     given an exhibit number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P546.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             And then what was the 65 ter that you were now calling for?

25     4333.

Page 3392

 1             MS. BOLTON:  B apparently.  433B.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it two 3s or three 3s?

 3             MS. BOLTON:  It's three 3s and a B.

 4                           [Videotape played]

 5             MS. BOLTON:  I should indicate for the record there was some kind

 6     of distortion there that is not in the original tape.  I'm not sure why

 7     that is but perhaps we'll try to address that after court today.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And why are we not playing the original tape?

 9             MS. BOLTON:  This is the original tape, but for some reason there

10     is feedback, at least it was for me, when it was playing that isn't there

11     when we play it off the main system.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which is which, Madam Bolton.  You said, "I should

13     indicate for the record there was some kind of distortion that is not in

14     the original tape."

15             Now you are saying this is the original tape.  Which is which?

16             MS. BOLTON:  As I understand it this is the same -- I'm not sure

17     how the electronic system is set up here.  This is the same recording

18     that I access from my office.  We have taken just a snip of it.  For some

19     reason when we are replaying it here there is an degree of feedback that

20     I didn't hear yesterday, for example, when we played it.  And I don't

21     know why that is.  I'm not very good with technology.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the feedback that we hear today that we

23     didn't hear yesterday?

24             MS. BOLTON:  It was almost like a computer noise.  There is

25     certainly wind noise.  I mean, the sound quality of the speaking isn't

Page 3393

 1     great, but there is an added layer of -- just sounded like computer noise

 2     the computer would make for example when a modem is dialing.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I didn't hear a word of what the people were

 4     saying because of background noise.  I had to actually take off my

 5     earphones because it was more irritating than telling me anything.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Well, I will perhaps go through with the witness

 7     what she is demonstrating on the video.  And I thank you for clarifying

 8     that for me, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, you may proceed.

10             MS. BOLTON:

11        Q.   Ms. Karacic, the sound quality on the video was very poor.  So I

12     have a few questions about what you were demonstrating.

13             First, was that you on the video with Mr. Hogan?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And am I correct that the first question he asked you, the first

16     thing he asked you was to demonstrate was where the tram had been located

17     at the time of the shooting; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, you're right.

19        Q.   And you were subsequently asked to show or to demonstrate how you

20     had been standing at the time that it had occurred?

21        A.   That, too, is correct, and I showed it.

22        Q.   And, lastly, you pointed up a street roughly opposite the hotel.

23     What were you demonstrating there?

24        A.   I was showing the direction from which the bullet might have

25     come.

Page 3394

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2        A.   If that's what you meant.  But at one point I also showed the

 3     direction of the tram, where it was coming from and which way it was

 4     headed.

 5        Q.   Okay.  The last part of the video where you point up the street,

 6     what were you demonstrating there?

 7        A.   That last part, that was where the bullet had come from.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as an exhibit, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

11     given an exhibit number as a videotape.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P547.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MS. BOLTON:

15        Q.   I just want to come back briefly to your injuries, ma'am.

16             After the -- you said the tram continued on a bit and at some

17     juncture you were then able to exit the tram; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, the tram kept on driving, because he couldn't stay there

19     lest other people be wounded too, and it went onwards until we -- until

20     the spot where it was actually protected by the museum building and

21     that's where it stopped in order to avoid further shooting or further

22     being shot at.

23        Q.   And after the tram had stopped in a safe location, did you attend

24     for treatment of your injury that day?

25        A.   Yes.  I was taken to the hospital in some car, and since the

Page 3395

 1     cease-fire was in effect, and I don't know which one this was, which

 2     cease-fire, but there was -- it wasn't too busy at the hospital so that

 3     they could attend to me immediately.  I just recall that when I woke up,

 4     when I came to, I thought that my arm had been in a bin, thrown away,

 5     because I couldn't feel it.  But when I looked, I could see that it was

 6     still there.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  And if I could have 65 ter 03067 brought up, please.

 8        Q.   Do you recognise the B/C/S version of that document, ma'am?

 9        A.   Yes.  It says Hafiza because I mentioned my nickname.  Everything

10     else is correct.  This is me.

11        Q.   Okay.  And that is a medical record what from institution?

12        A.   Trauma clinic on Kosevo.

13        Q.   Okay.  You indicated that you came to in the hospital.  Were you

14     able to tell at that point what kind of treatment they had administered

15     to you for your injury?

16        A.   After surgery, I had an IV and I spent three to four days in

17     intensive care.  I don't know everything that they did, administered, but

18     I know that I was in a very bad shape.  I was on an IV drip.  I had

19     pills.  I don't know exactly what all they gave me, but I was in a lot of

20     pain.  There were four wires fixed on to my arm, and this was very

21     painful; so I was under medication all the time, and I don't know what

22     the names of those medicines were.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please,

25     Your Honour.

Page 3396

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so marked.  May it please be given an

 2     exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P548.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             MS. BOLTON:

 6        Q.   Did you have to undergo surgery at any subsequent point of time

 7     as a result of the injuries you sustained on November 23rd, 1994?

 8        A.   Yes.  Three months later, I had to undergo surgery again.  At

 9     that point, they took a piece of the bone from my hip, in order to maybe

10     up the missing bone in my arm; but then it didn't work, so they had to

11     make my arm shorter.  It was three centimetres shorter at that point.

12     But a year later when they were trying to assess my disability, they said

13     that my arm was six centimetres shorter.  The nerve radialis was cut off,

14     and I couldn't move my arm at all.  Now I do have some mobility.

15        Q.   Okay.  That subsequent surgery, where was it performed?

16        A.   At the same clinic.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MS. BOLTON:  Could we bring up 65 ter 03070, please.

19        Q.   Ma'am, this is an medical record in front of you from a woman

20     named Hafiza Karacic and an indication of a date of birth, a father's

21     name of Fehim and an address of Vrbovska 82, Sarajevo.  Does that

22     information correspond with you?

23        A.   Yes, the information is correct.  That refers to me.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as an exhibit as well,

Page 3397

 1     please, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is marked as an exhibit.  May it please be

 3     given an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P549.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MS. BOLTON:

 7        Q.   I just have a few additional questions of November 23rd, 1994,

 8     ma'am.

 9             Do you recall what the weather was like that day?

10        A.   Yes, I do.  It was a clear day.

11        Q.   And at that time of year, were there any leaves on the trees?

12        A.   No, they were none.

13             MS. BOLTON:  I believe those are all my questions for the

14     witness, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

16             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.

18             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, I'd like to

20     consult my case manager as well as the OTP case manager.

21             We had some problems this morning.  It seems that all of my

22     e-mails had been blocked, and courtesy of the OTP, I received some

23     documents that I intended to use.  In any case, I would like to

24     double-check whether things are fine now and to consult with them once

25     more before I continue.

Page 3398

 1             Well, it seems that I can go on.  Again, I wish to thank the

 2     Prosecution for the technical assistance and the problem that befell us.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Ms. Karacic, good morning.  My name is Novak

 5     Lukic, and I appear on behalf of Mr. Perisic.  I have a few questions for

 6     you.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You now have e-mail unblocked.  Are you okay now

 9     technically?

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  We dealt with it mechanically.

11        Q.   The incident, Ms. Karacic, took place over 14 years ago; is that

12     correct?

13             As regards the incident, you provided several statements to

14     various bodies.  You also testify in the Dragomir Milosevic case before

15     this very Tribunal.

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   You will agree that your memory of the events was better during

18     the previous years than it is today.

19        A.   Whatever took place that day is something that I will remember

20     for the rest of my life.  I will never forget it.

21        Q.   I would kindly ask you to pause before you start answering for

22     the sake of the interpreters, so that there is no overlap of what we say.

23             Add regards the event, you had an interview with a police

24     inspector in Sarajevo, Mr. Kemal Buco some three weeks after the incident

25     while you were still in the hospital.  Do you remember that?

Page 3399

 1        A.   I do.  I do remember the interview, but not the man mention.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have document

 3     65 ter 1389 brought up on the screen, please.

 4        Q.   These are the notes of an interview compiled by the Ministry of

 5     Interior in Sarajevo, dated the 15th of December, 1994.  I don't know

 6     whether you can follow it on the screen.  Can you read it?

 7        A.   Yes, I can.

 8        Q.   The document is entitled Official Note.  Below that it says taken

 9     down in -- on the premises of the Kosevo Hospital, in the course of an

10     interview conducted with Hafiza Karacic and then we have your particulars

11     and in the next paragraph it says:  "On the 23rd of November, 1994,

12     around 3.30 p.m." --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just interrupt you, Mr. Lukic.  It

14     doesn't like we've got the same page in the English or perhaps I'm just

15     seeing something ...

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Obviously this is not even the

18     document.  Now we have the right document in English as well.

19        Q.   I'm reading from the middle of the first paragraph.  The

20     inspector notes the following:

21             "Given that the tram was hit at the very location where the two

22     of them were, and that the bullet went through an open window, no window

23     glass was heard breaking.  The aforementioned passengers were hit by a

24     single bullet which fragmented, hitting Hafiza Karacic in the top part of

25     her shoulder with the bullet exiting in her right upper arm.

Page 3400

 1     Sabina Sabanic was also hit in the top part of her shoulder.  The exit

 2     wound was in a lower part of her arm since the bullet had gone

 3     diagonally.  After the tram was hit on its way from the Tehnicka Skola to

 4     the KMT in the -- in Zmaja Od Bosne Street, the driver continued

 5     driving."

 6             This is what the notes say; is that correct?  Do you recall

 7     talking to the inspector about which part of the body you were hit in and

 8     where the incident took place?

 9        A.   The inspector probably went to the site where the tram had been

10     hit.  As for the rest of what he wrote down, I don't know.  I don't know

11     whether the window was open or not.

12        Q.   I agree.  Do you remember indicating to the inspector the part of

13     your body where you were hit, when he visited you in the hospital?

14        A.   I probably did.  I probably showed him the -- my shoulder and my

15     arm.  He could see that for himself.  I was in the hospital.

16        Q.   Do you recall having said to the inspector that he were hit in

17     the vicinity of the Marshal Tito barracks?

18        A.   Well, it's in that area, if you are familiar with Sarajevo, it's

19     in the parameter of 100 metres.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Let us move on.

21             Regarding your statement given to the representatives of the

22     OTP --

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D00--- just

24     before that, Your Honours, I would like to tender this document into

25     evidence.

Page 3401

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 2     please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours that will be Exhibit D46.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Next I would kindly ask for

 6     1D00-5846.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What's the number, Mr. Lukic?

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It was marked as 1D00-5846 by the

 9     Defence.  It is the witness's statement.

10        Q.   Ms. Karacic --

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the bottom of the

12     English page.

13             I suppose you recognise your signature on this statement?

14        A.   I do.

15        Q.   You provided this statement to the representatives of the OTP

16     about a year following the incident, on the 15th of November, 1995.  I

17     suppose you remember having talked to them?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to page 2.

20             No, it seems that this is the statement from 2006.  In any case,

21     could we please go back to page one so as to avoid any confusion.  This

22     is the second statement, and I believe I misspoke for the transcript.

23     That's right.

24        Q.   Let us now go to page 2 and then after that, we'll go to your

25     first statement.

Page 3402

 1             This is the second interview you had with the representatives of

 2     the OTP in 2006.

 3             In paragraph 2, it says towards the middle -- well, you actually

 4     correct something from your first statement.  You say that in the first

 5     statement the location where the tram was hit was near the Tito barracks

 6     but it should be described as Marindvor area.

 7             Do you remember having made this correction to the first

 8     statement.

 9        A.   Yes.  But I only said what I just told you.  It's in the same

10     area.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not seek to tender this

12     statement.

13             Next could we please have document 1D00-5847 shown to the

14     witness.

15        Q.   You can see your signature again on the English copy; is that

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I reversed the chronology.  In any case, this is your first

19     statement of the 5th of November, 1995.  This was the first interview you

20     had with the representatives The Hague Tribunal, the Prosecutor's office?

21        A.   That is right.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 2, please.

23        Q.   I'm reading from the second paragraph.  In the statement it says,

24     in the statement you signed, that is:

25             "On the map, I have put an arrow to show the direction that the

Page 3403

 1     tram was taking, and the red cross at the spot where I assumed the event

 2     happened in front of the Marshal Tito barracks."

 3             As we saw in the other statement you were a bit more precise

 4     there, having said that it was in your view in the area of Marindvor?

 5        A.   Yes, next to the museum at Marindvor.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Since it says here, "On the map, I have put an

 7     arrow ..."  do you remember in the course of the first interview having

 8     marked anything on a map or having drawn a sketch of the incident?

 9        A.   There was a map, although I'm not very familiar with maps.  In

10     any case, I tried to mark the spot as best I could, but I may have gone

11     slightly wrong because I'm not well versed in topography.

12        Q.   Therefore, you believe you used a map rather than a photograph?

13        A.   Yes, that is correct.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Next could we go back to

15     Exhibit P546.

16             As for the other statement, I do not seek to tender it either.

17        Q.   We saw the footage with the OTP investigator, Mr. Hogan.  You

18     were there with him at the location where the incident took place and you

19     described your idea of it.

20        A.   That is correct.

21        Q.   That was before you testified in the Dragomir Milosevic case, if

22     you recall.

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   Do you recall that before you testified in the Dragomir Milosevic

25     case you had an interview with an OTP representatives here in The Hague

Page 3404

 1     while being proofed, much like the one you gave yesterday preparing for

 2     this testimony?

 3        A.   I do remember that.

 4        Q.   On that occasion you were shown two statements I have just shown

 5     you, and you were able to go through them.

 6             In the course of that testimony, you said that you stood by the

 7     statements in full?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   It is page 1181, line 24 of the transcript, open session in the

10     Milosevic case, dated 29th of January, 2007.

11             Basically, at that time, in the Milosevic case, you confirmed

12     that the tram was hit at Marindvor.  You said so under oath.

13        A.   Well, Marindvor, the museum, the Marshal Tito barracks, it's all

14     in the same area, as I said.

15        Q.   That's why I wanted to use this photograph.  We will indicate all

16     those locations.  For the time being, I have the following question for

17     you.

18             Do you remember having said under oath that the tram was hit in

19     front of Marindvor?

20        A.   I did confirm that, but I didn't think it would be that much of

21     an issue.  It's all within 100 metres.

22        Q.   If I asked you now -- or, rather, if I told you that you had

23     never mentioned the Holiday Inn, would you confirm that?

24        A.   I would not confirm that.  I've always said that it was the --

25     that location and the barracks.  It's all within 100 metres.

Page 3405

 1        Q.   Would you please just answer my question.  And it's going to be

 2     easy to actually determine the location.  I suppose the photograph is

 3     clear enough.

 4             So I'm asking you this:  Do you remember that at any point in any

 5     statement you ever mentioned, including your testimony in the

 6     Milosevic case, that you had been hit in front of Holiday Inn?

 7        A.   Yes, the Holiday Inn and the museum.  It's all one and the same

 8     area.

 9        Q.   I do realise that you have difficulty with drawing because of

10     your arm, but could you perhaps indicate on this photograph and tell us

11     whether you can see Marindvor?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   First of all, can we all agree that the yellow building there is

14     the Holiday Inn Hotel; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Would it be too difficult for you to indicate Marindvor, also

17     with a dot?  Perhaps using a different colour pen?

18             Could you just pause for a moment.  Yes, now you can go on.

19             Because I don't want to put the witness through all of this

20     trouble.  Could you just put a dot in red ink to indicate Marindvor?

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Could you now indicate, or do you know, actually, where the

23     technical school is?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Can you see it in this photo?  Could you please mark it with an

Page 3406

 1     X.

 2        A.   This is the spot.

 3        Q.   And one final request, if it's not too much trouble.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps just for the

 5     record to say that the red line, the short line, next to the tall

 6     building, was marked by the witness as Marindvor, whereas the red dot to

 7     the left of the yellow building is -- was marked as the technical school.

 8        Q.   And let me ask you this:  Could you please put an X next to the

 9     Marshal Tito barracks.

10        A.   It begins here and then it stretches, there.  Because you can't

11     see it anymore in this photo.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, let me just say

13     that the red slanted line that is to the left of the red dot was marked

14     by the witness as the site where the Marshal Tito barracks was.

15             Could we please -- I'd like to tender this document into evidence

16     and, Your Honour, I think it will be clear enough.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

18     please be given an exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D46.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not 47?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  You're correct, Your Honour.  D47.  I apologise.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Ms. Karacic, yesterday you were proofed for your evidence today;

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3407

 1        Q.   Your husband was also present on that occasion; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did he help you with finding your bearings on the map, when you

 4     were indicating where the locations were?

 5        A.   He just suggested because I'm not very good with maps.  He just

 6     suggested where certain areas were, nothing else.

 7        Q.   Were you shown this photograph yesterday?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Was your husband present when you discussed with the Prosecutor

10     this photo?

11        A.   He was there.

12        Q.   Did he make any comments in regard to any of the buildings shown

13     on this photo?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   You did not hear the sound of the bullet when you were struck.

16        A.   No.  I just felt it strike me, and that's all.

17        Q.   And you assumed that the bullet had come from the direction of

18     Grbavica or the Jewish cemetery?

19        A.   Well, in view of how -- what my position was and how I was

20     standing in the tram, that's the only place it could have come from.

21        Q.   You were -- your back was turned to the front of the tram, the

22     direction where the tram was actually moving to; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did the Prosecutor mention during the proofing session what it --

25     what its position was or what it considered or thought about this

Page 3408

 1     incident?

 2        A.   I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.

 3        Q.   Did the Prosecutor read you to the indictment?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you remember that the Prosecutor told you when reading the

 6     indictment that this incident was between the technical school and the

 7     Marshal Tito barracks?

 8        A.   Well, in my view, it's all one and the same area.  There's not a

 9     very big distance between these buildings.  So they're not really

10     distinct areas, the museum, the barracks, the -- they're all there.

11        Q.   In any case, you cannot recall the way you said it, whether you

12     were hit in front of the Holiday Inn or further down towards the

13     barracks?

14        A.   Well, it was there.  The corner where the Holiday Inn was and a

15     bit further where the barracks was.  I can't be precise to a millimetre

16     or to a metre.

17        Q.   So it is possible that you were not struck at the point, the

18     site, where you told the Prosecutor that it happened.  You couldn't be

19     precise to the finest -- to the last metre?

20        A.   Yes, I couldn't, but it was there.

21        Q.   You also said that it was a clear day.  Do you remember whether

22     it was a cool day?  It was in late November.

23        A.   Yes, it was a cool day, but it was clear and bright.

24        Q.   Do you recall whether the window on the tram was open?  Maybe

25     it's asking too much.  But maybe you can remember that.

Page 3409

 1        A.   I have already said that I can't remember that.  I didn't hear

 2     the breaking of the glass.  I only felt this hit.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I seek to tender these

 4     statements into evidence because -- because of what the witness said when

 5     I asked about whether she had ever mentioned the Holiday Inn before.

 6     These are short statements, and they refer to what she had described

 7     because I only asked the witness about the portions to with the location;

 8     but I just wanted to have them tendered into evidence because of the fact

 9     that she said she -- she hadn't said that she had mentioned before the

10     Holiday Inn.

11             So I seek to tender into evidence 1D00-5846 and 1D00-5847.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, you -- 1D00-5846, the document is admitted

13     into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours that will be Exhibit D48.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  And 1D00-5847, the document is also

16     admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D49, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Ms. Karacic, I only have one last question, if you can remember,

21     when you were on site with Mr. Hogan, the OTP investigator, when we

22     saw -- what we saw on the video footage earlier, do you remember whether

23     there were any other witnesses present there that were involved in some

24     other incident?

25        A.   No.  I was the only one.

Page 3410

 1        Q.   All right.  Thank you, Ms. Karacic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

 3     Your Honour.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just add something to do with

 5     the Holiday Inn building?

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   I think Ms. Bolton will probably try to clarify this in her

 8     re-direct, so you will be given an opportunity to clear up whatever you

 9     wish?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

11             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

12                           Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:

13        Q.   I have a few questions for you, ma'am.

14             MS. BOLTON:  First, could I ask, Madam Registrar, I'd like to see

15     the last page in the electronic version of the statement from

16     November 19th, 1995.  And I'm not sure if that was D48 or D49.

17        Q.   Okay.  We have in the English -- in -- I guess a map tendered as

18     part of the exhibit then.  And on the map, is this the map that you were

19     referring to in your statement about marking this -- marking a red cross

20     at the stop where the incident occurred?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, we haven't seen this map today in

22     this format.  I don't know that this witness has indicated that she

23     hasn't got -- she's got problems with maps.  We can't show her something

24     she hasn't seen.  You called a statement.  Do you want to look at the

25     statement, D49?

Page 3411

 1             MS. BOLTON:  The difficulty is my friend put a part of her

 2     statement to her from November 1995 where he was talking about her having

 3     marked a red cross at the spot where the event happened, and in light of

 4     that line of questioning, I think I need to clarify what was marked on

 5     the map, and this, I understand, is the map that they were discussing in

 6     cross-examination.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  During cross-examination I didn't see a

 8     black-and-white map.  I saw -- I saw a picture of Sarajevo that you had

 9     marked the point where the witness said in evidence-in-chief the tram was

10     shot, using that map, that photograph.  She indicated points to the right

11     and left of that photograph.

12             Now, this -- that was a colour photograph.  This is a

13     black-and-white photograph, which has not been used today in this --

14             MS. BOLTON:  This, I understand, has been tendered as part of the

15     Defence exhibit because it is attached to the statement of November 1995.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You go ahead, ma'am.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Just with respect to this map that's in front of you, ma'am, can

19     you locate the mark that you placed on this map back in 1995?

20        A.   I can't.  I really cannot find my bearings here.  I don't

21     understand this.

22        Q.   Okay.  When you were dealing with this map back in 1995, was it

23     any easier for you to understand it then than it is now?

24        A.   No, it was the same.

25        Q.   Okay.  When you were being cross-examined, at one point, my

Page 3412

 1     friend was asking you whether your husband had assisted you in helping

 2     you find your bearings during the proofing session.

 3             I just want to ask, did that -- or he asked you if you [sic]

 4     helped you find your bearings.  Did he assist you during the session or

 5     sometime after the session, in finding your bearings on the maps in

 6     Sarajevo?

 7        A.   He didn't assist me.  He just commented afterwards how it was

 8     that I couldn't find my way on the map, and that's all he said.  Nothing

 9     else.

10        Q.   Okay.  And in terms of his participation during the session, was

11     he participating and assisting you answering questions during the

12     session?

13        A.   No.  He didn't participate, nor did he assist in any way.

14        Q.   My friend also suggested to you in cross-examination that there

15     was discussion during proofing of the indictment.  Are you talking about

16     the proofing session you had yesterday or another proofing session?

17        A.   I don't understand what you're asking.

18        Q.   My friend suggested during cross-examination that the indictment

19     had been read to you.  Do you know what he means when he says "the

20     indictment"?

21        A.   I don't understand your question.

22        Q.   Okay.  Do you know what an indictment is?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   Okay.  Did anyone read to you from the indictment against

25     General Perisic yesterday?

Page 3413

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   So I'm just trying to understand what you meant, then, when my

 3     friend suggested there had been reading from the indictment in the

 4     proofing session yesterday.  What were you talking about?

 5        A.   I wasn't read an indictment.  I only had opportunity to read my

 6     own statements one more time, and I was proofed.  That's it, nothing

 7     else.

 8        Q.   Okay.  My friend was asking you about the Holiday Inn.  Was today

 9     the first time that you have mentioned the Holiday Inn to anyone

10     associated with this investigation or prosecution?

11        A.   Yes.  Today is the first time that so much stress is put on the

12     Holiday Inn.  I haven't mentioned it before because it was behind me; and

13     to me, the museum was the more important building because the tram tracks

14     are closer to that side of the road, so -- and the Holiday Inn was behind

15     my back, so that's why I haven't mentioned it so far, nor was it

16     mentioned in the statements because I did not consider this relevant.

17     The museum or outside the museum was the spot where this happened.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MS. BOLTON:  If we could bring up Defence exhibit -- sorry, it's

20     the map that he had the witness mark, and I think it was 47, D47.  Sorry,

21     not the map; it was the photograph.

22        Q.   You just mentioned the museum, and I don't think that was one of

23     the buildings that my friend had asked you to mark, and I think for

24     clarity, it would assist if you can show us where the museum is in that

25     photograph.

Page 3414

 1             MS. BOLTON:  And, Mr. Usher, the witness may need your

 2     assistance.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This refers to this building here,

 4     but I did not place the dot in the right place.

 5             MS. BOLTON:

 6        Q.   Okay.  Do you need to erase it then if it's not in the right

 7     place.  Mr. Usher could assist you, if you wish to do that.

 8        A.   Yes.  Could you please erase it.  It should be closer.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And to distinguish between that dot, that blue dot and the

10     other blue dot that you had already marked, are you able to make that one

11     larger?

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

14             MS. BOLTON:  If that could then be tendered.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

16     given an exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P550.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             MS. BOLTON:  Those are all my questions in re-examination.  Thank

20     you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam, that brings us to the end of your

24     testimony.  Thank you very much for coming to testify.  You are now

25     excused.  You may stand down, and please travel well back home.

Page 3415

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think that would be a convenient time.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, we have no additional witnesses for

 6     today.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh.

 8             MR. HARMON:  So that concludes our evidence for today,

 9     Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             MR. HARMON:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In that event ...

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm caught napping.  In this event, then we must

15     be -- we must postpone to next week, Monday, in the afternoon.  I cannot

16     say the courtroom.  I think it's Courtroom II.

17             Court adjourned.

18                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.14 a.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of

20                           February, 2009.