1 Tuesday, 17 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom. I hope we are all here. There were a comedy of errors a
7 little earlier. We were going to Courtroom I, and then we are to come
8 back here. Are we all present? Could we have the case called, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
10 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
11 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances for
13 today, starting with the Prosecution.
14 MR. THOMAS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
15 everyone in and around the courtroom. Mark Harmon, Barney Thomas, and
16 Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas. And for the
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, and
20 good afternoon to all participants in these proceedings. Mr. Perisic
21 will today be represented by Gregor Guy-Smith and Novak Lukic as Defence
22 counsel; and our legal assistants, Chad Mair, Milos Androvic, Tina
23 Drolec; and the case manager, Daniela Tasic.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic. Once again, for
25 the record, we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis because Judge David
1 continues to be indisposed. Mr. Thomas.
2 MR. THOMAS: Thank you Your Honours. Could we go into closed
3 session, please.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber move into closed session.
5 [Closed session]
11 Pages 3495-3545 redacted. Closed session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 MR. THOMAS: And could we please have Exhibit 65 ter 819 on the
5 screen, please.
6 Q. Sir, you will recognise once again one of these preprinted
7 materiel lists? Sorry, do you recognise once again one of these
8 preprinted lists? We need an oral answer, sir.
9 A. Yes, I recognise the materiel sheet.
10 Q. In the box number 6 on the top left-hand side of the page, we see
11 the entry 12 August 1993
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. If you go down a little from there, box number 4, we see name and
14 place of sender, "Kragujevac, maintenance and repairs depot." Do you see
16 A. Yes, I see that, TRZ Kragujevac again. Yes.
17 Q. That's the same reference to TRZ Kragujevac that we saw in the
18 previous document; is that right?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. If you look across the page from there, if we can scroll across a
21 little on both documents on the same line, do we see an entry for the
22 name and place of recipient being the Drina Corps command?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. From a box 2
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: From box 12
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean box 12?
2 MR. THOMAS:
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. [Previous translation continued]
5 Q. And across on the right-hand side of the page would be a place
6 being Vlasenica; is that right?
7 A. Yes. It's almost identical to the list that we saw earlier
8 except that this list was completed by someone who wasn't very well
9 informed because he wrote under number 1 the log-book number, and if this
10 was a receipt list, then he should have put that number on the right-hand
11 side, as we saw in the previous list. It should have been put under
12 number 16 if this is a receipt sheet.
13 Q. Okay. If we look, please, at the materiel which was supplied,
14 which will require us to scroll to the left on both documents, please.
15 A. Well, first shell, 155-millimetre, shell contact, then there's a
16 130-millimetre bullet. Is it flare? I don't know. "Sbp," what does
17 that mean? In any case, it's 130-millimetre bullet.
18 Q. And if we scroll over to the right of the page, what was the
19 quantity of each of those supplied on this occasion?
20 A. Issued 100, received 100, issued 104, received 104. This was
21 entered into the materiel list by someone who didn't really know very
22 well how to do this because he put the price, he entered the same
23 numbers, and then in the units he didn't put the code, 60.
24 Q. All right. Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The code 60 is also not there in the original,
1 anyway, so if he is transcribing what's written there -- are you talking
2 about the original guy? Okay, sorry. Yes, you are right.
3 MR. THOMAS:
4 Q. And finally, if we scroll down the page, do we see the stamp?
5 What is the relevance of the stamp that we see there?
6 A. It says "military post 7111," or does it say that -- 7111, and
7 then it says "Han Pijesak." That's the military post that received the
8 ammunition, 7111, Han Pijesak, because parts of the Drina Corps were most
9 probably located at Han Pijesak and in Vlasenica, which is most probably
10 why they have the same military post number, which is 7111.
11 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, sir.
12 Your Honours, could we please tender that document as a
13 Prosecution exhibit.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That document is admitted. May it please be given
15 an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P567.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you very much.
18 That would then be a convenient time, Mr. Thomas?
19 MR. THOMAS: It would, sir.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you very much.
21 We'll now take a recess and come back at 5.45. Court adjourned.
22 --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, have you checked your exhibit?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I looked at both of
1 these documents during the break, and I also discussed them with my
2 learned friends from the OTP, and in my view I saw major discrepancies,
3 in my view, between the B/C/S and the English versions, both in the one
4 that's already been admitted and the other one. Maybe the interpreters
5 can assist, but in the document we were discussing, which Your Honours
6 should now rule on, 65 ter 814, in the B/C/S version, above the column
7 under number 25 it says "unit of measurement," and the witness explained
8 that this is a code number. In the English version, it says "unit."
9 In the document you have now admitted into evidence, the same
10 piece of information, it says "unit of measurement," whereas in the
11 English it says "number of units." And then I observed another error,
12 but this has already been admitted into evidence - however, I feel that
13 this is important - in box number 10, in the B/C/S version it's been
14 filled in by hand, "packing list," whereas you saw that in the English
15 version, which has been admitted into evidence under 10, it says
16 "operation form."
17 My problem is, Your Honours, that when preparing for this
18 testimony, I looked only at the B/C/S versions of the documents, but it
19 seems to me that there are certain problems. I have discussed this with
20 my learned friends from the OTP, and I suggest that we keep these
21 documents as MFI
22 As for the document which has already been admitted into
23 evidence, I think it might be MFI
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
25 Mr. Thomas.
1 MR. THOMAS: I have no objection to both of those suggestions
2 made by my learned friend, perhaps with one qualification, and that is
3 maybe, my learned friend, instead of deciding now that we need official
4 translations for all of these documents, whether that decision can be
5 deferred. Certainly whatever official translations my learned friends
6 may wish or consider appropriate, we would obtain, but I wonder if that
7 decision on exactly how many and which ones can be deferred until --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the ruling can only relate to these two
9 exhibits. We can't rule on future exhibits. We'll rule on them --
10 MR. THOMAS: No, that's fine, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much. Then could we admit
12 65 ter 00814 and give it an exhibit number, please, and mark it for
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 00814 will be Exhibit P568
15 marked for identification.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And then could we mark
17 Exhibit P567 for identification, please.
18 THE REGISTRAR: P567 will be marked for identification, Your
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 Mr. Thomas.
22 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. Could we please have
23 Exhibit 65 ter 00821 on the screen, please.
24 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document as another standard form
25 materiel list?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If we look on the top right-hand corner of the document, does it
3 show a date of receipt of 21 August 1993
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. If we look at the line below that, in the military post we see
6 the entry 7111?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The place as Han Pijesak?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Recipient as the Drina Corps command?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And on the left-hand side of the document, do we see an entry
13 under the name and address of the sender as the Kragujevac maintenance
14 and repair institute?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And we go down to the materiel which has been supplied. Could
17 you please just explain what each entry is for Their Honours?
18 A. Number 1, bullet, 100 millimetres, contact action, T-55, that's a
19 tank, T-55; 130-millimetre tank, contact action for an M-46 gun;
20 155-millimetre bullet, contact action for a Howitzer or an M-1 gun. Then
21 it says list finished with number 3, and then one is 30 pieces to 80
22 pieces and three, 150 pieces.
23 Q. All right. The translation we have been receiving in English is
24 that these are bullets. Are these items infantry ammunition? Are they
25 artillery shells? What are they?
1 A. Artillery ammunition, but the word used was "Metak," which means
2 "bullet." That was the word used rather than "shell." And let me
3 explain another thing. The lawyer now who said marked for identification
4 and then he said packing list, well, probably they didn't use a materiel
5 list but a packing list, and they entered this number. It was a
6 temporary document, 153 through 93. The year was '93, the number was 53.
7 It was some sort of packing list. And based on this, the administrator
8 who received this drew up a report on receipt or receipt note, but the
9 right-hand side has not really been filled in properly.
10 Q. If we scroll down to the bottom of the document, do we see a
11 stamp and signature denoting receipt by military post 7111?
12 A. Yes, Han Pijesak. Military post 7111, Han Pijesak.
13 Lieutenant-Colonel Cosic, Administrator Komlenovic. You can't really see
14 it well. I think it was Komlenovic.
15 MR. THOMAS: Thank you. Your Honours, can this document please
16 be tendered as a Prosecution exhibit.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
18 please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P569.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Thomas and Mr. Lukic, I
21 bear in mind the objections you raised, Mr. Lukic, about the mistakes in
22 the entries, but we have spent a considerable amount of time explaining
23 the standard form. Is there a way in which you can agree to tender the
24 rest of the documents that you want to tender subject to whatever
25 corrections being made, if there are any, rather than go through each one
1 of them one by one and repeating ourselves like we are doing?
2 Maybe you should take the first part at the answer, Mr. Lukic,
3 because you are entitled to object.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I -- well, I would
5 have to know what documents Mr. Thomas wishes to tender because I have
6 received three 65 ter lists, but I will not object to certain documents
7 being admitted unless there is a problem in the translation. There's no
8 need to go through them all.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand. Obviously, if there is a problem
10 with translation, we would MFI
11 the standard form that we see and it's filled like that, do we really
12 have to go through each one of them like we are doing now?
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Quite honestly,
14 this witness can tell us facts, but I have no problem to documents being
15 admitted subject to their weight of course being assessed by Your Honours
16 in the course of the proceedings.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, that would happen at the appropriate time.
19 Mr. Thomas.
20 MR. THOMAS: Sir, I have no difficulty with producing them in the
21 way you suggest, subject, however, though, to two -- there are two
22 difficulties. The first is that in some, the information changes, and
23 there are some aspects of certain delivery slips that I would want this
24 witness to comment on.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those you can do, yes.
1 MR. THOMAS: In respect of all of them, though, Your Honour,
2 these relate to, as they do in this document, materiel items that are
3 identified in military terms.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's true. At least you can get the witness to
5 tell us what's on the order.
6 MR. THOMAS: Exactly.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the rest, we understand. We understand the
8 form of the form.
9 MR. THOMAS: What I was going to suggest, Your Honour, is that I
10 just call them up one by one, clarify what needs to be clarified, and
11 tender it without further comment unless it's particularly necessary.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. It means, Mr. Lukic, maybe you must
13 then be more vigilant to make sure that where you plan to object, you can
14 object, because we will not be going through the whole document this
16 Thank you, Mr. Thomas. You may proceed.
17 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour. Can we have 65 ter 00823 on
18 the screen, please.
19 Q. And the materiel that has been provided in the English
20 translation is described as a number of different types of battery. Are
21 those electrical batteries?
22 A. 12-volt battery, yes. 12 volts, 12-volt battery, 12-volt
23 battery. These are 12-volt batteries mostly as I see. Number 9 is
24 180 volts, and there are some other batteries here, maybe for radio
25 equipment. The previous ones are used for motor vehicles, but it's all
2 MR. THOMAS: Your Honour, could we please tender that document as
3 a Prosecution exhibit.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, we can do that. Number 10 and number 11.
5 Number 10 is 7TB, and number 11 is 10TB. There's not voltage mentioned
6 there. What kind of batteries are those?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says 12-V battery, and then
8 there's another marking, 50 A4; then again, it says 12-volt battery,
9 6684; and then again, 12 volt. All of them are 12 volts except for 9,
10 which is 180, and then the last two, that's unfamiliar to me. They are
11 some sort of batteries, but what sort they are, whether they are used for
12 radio equipment, I couldn't say.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much. But I think number 9
14 does say 12 V. It says something, and then it says 12 -- even in the
15 B/C/S it's 12 V, and then 180 something, 180 A4.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Amper hours. 180 amper hours, my
17 mistake. You are right.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir. Okay. Then if Mr. Lukic has no
19 objection, that may be admitted into evidence. Do you want it marked, or
20 do you want it admitted, Mr. Lukic?
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document be MFI'd because my
22 assistant is telling me there's a problem with the translation, so after
23 the cross-examination it might be admitted.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. In that event, I don't think -- Mr. Thomas,
25 is that okay?
1 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Can we give it an exhibit number and mark
3 it for identification, please.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P570 marked
5 for identification.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour, Madam Registrar.
8 Could we please have Exhibit 65 ter 1176 on the screen, please.
9 Q. Sir, on the original or the B/C/S version, do you see an entry
10 for the name of the sender?
11 A. Kragujevac is the sender, and the place, Mrsac, that's probably a
12 depot somewhere in Serbia
13 belonged to the main military post in Kragujevac, just as the 27th base
14 was my main military post and Kragujevac was subordinate to it, so the
15 main command would be at Kragujevac, and the depot would be in Mrsac.
16 Q. The materiels supplied were mines, explosive mines?
17 A. Mines, but I don't see which ones, whether 120 or 82 or 60
18 millimetre or whether this is infantry or artillery shells. You can't
19 see that.
20 Q. If the supply was -- well, let me ask you another question.
21 Would delivery slips or materiel lists, rather, refer to or reference the
22 orders under which supplies had been effected or ordered?
23 A. As a rule, that should have been entered. It should say "note,"
24 and if the materiel has been received, I would write down received based
25 on such a such a number from such and such a military post on such and
1 such a date. And when you are sending them out, you'd write down based
2 on what order and what military post and what date that was.
3 Q. Do we have that on this document?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Does the original document refer to a decision dated -- sorry,
6 orders dated the 19th of November, 1993, and 12th of November, 1993,
7 issued by the chief of General Staff of the Yugoslav Army?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. THOMAS: Could we tender that exhibit, please, Your Honours.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a problem because I see only
12 the first page of the English, and there are two pages in English, so I
13 can't compare the two. No objection, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We'll have that admitted.
15 Can it be given an exhibit number, please.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P571.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
18 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Could we please have 65 ter 01162.
20 Q. Sir, I just want to direct your attention to the materiel that
21 was supplied. Can you please -- no, before we do that, you will see the
22 entry for the sender in box number 4. Can you tell us what the B/C/S
23 says, please?
24 A. It says Main Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, Ladevci. It's a
25 strange list. It's odd.
1 Q. Before I ask you about that, what does the reference to Ladevci
3 A. Most probably, it's a place name, a place in Serbia.
4 Q. And why do you suggest this list is odd?
5 A. Because if the sender is the Main Staff of the Army of
7 bottom of a list, but there should be a military post number entered
8 here, the number of Ladevci military post, and if it was issued based on
9 an order coming from the Yugoslav Army Main Staff, then it should be
10 entered in a note, the materiel is being issued pursuant to an order
11 issued by the Yugoslav Army Main Staff, order number so and so. Most
12 probably, the administrator who drew up this document had been a civilian
13 before and had not been trained well enough. They didn't have a computer
14 processing of these materiel lists, so that's why they're so incomplete.
15 As the gentleman mentioned a little earlier, number 26, this
16 nomenclature number, every bullet had its code number, and then the sort
17 of materiel being issued would be described by the code number, but we
18 have not seen a single properly-filled-in list yet, one that's filled in
19 according to all the rules.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: While you are talking about improperly filled, are
21 you able to comment on the fact that it doesn't seem to be dated, when
22 you look at the top left corner, second from the left?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the upper left-hand corner
24 there's no date, but this is a list not -- that was not filled in by the
25 sender. It was only filled in by the recipient.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do we have the date of the receipt? Can we scroll
2 to the right.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, let's move the document a
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: There's a date there.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the 22nd of November, 1993
7 Drina Corps command, and put in at the depot in Tisca. This is a
8 12.7-millimetre round for a Browning and an M79 rocket. That's an
9 anti-artillery weapon.
10 MR. THOMAS:
11 Q. What is a Browning?
12 A. That is a machine-gun, an anti-aircraft machine-gun, but it can
13 also be used as an anti-personnel weapon because it has two kind of
14 pedestals it can be placed on, and I see that NATO has the same sort of
15 weapon, a 12.7-calibre machine-gun built in.
16 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, sir. Thank you, Your Honours. If we
17 could please tender that as a Prosecution exhibit.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. The document is admitted into
20 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P572, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Could we please have
24 65 ter 01180 on the screen, please.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: 01180.
1 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir.
2 Q. Sir, you will see that there's no entry for the sender in box
3 number 4, but there is an entry as the place being Paracin.
4 A. Yes, military post 7518, Paracin, and then the sender is --
5 bookkeeping centre was in Nis
6 Q. And where is Paracin?
7 A. Paracin is in southern Serbia.
8 Q. Again, sir, can you just explain to us what materiel has been
10 A. A 7.62-millimetre round, heavy bullet. That's probably something
11 that is used not for an automatic rifle but for a submachine-gun, and
12 then there is also a hand-grenade and -- a modified hand-grenade, and
13 there is a shaped charge shell for a rocket-launcher.
14 Q. What is a shaped charge shell?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MR. THOMAS: I wonder if we could go into closed session just for
12 a moment, Your Honour.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we go into private session, Mr. Lukic, have
15 you abandoned standing up? Thank you. I want to believe that by
16 nodding, you are saying yes, just for the record.
17 May the Chamber please move into private session.
18 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 Yes, Mr. Thomas.
3 MR. THOMAS: I seek then to tender 65 ter 1180, please.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There is one small error in
6 translation or interpretation, and I think we can correct it right away,
7 and then I will agree to it being entered into evidence. If we can see
8 the English version, the bottom part, please, and we can also see it in
9 the B/C/S version when you scroll it down. We need box number 40. If we
10 can just move it a bit further to the right. That's correct. Now, in
11 English, under 40, it's blank, whereas under 41 it says
12 Lieutenant-Colonel Acamovic, which in fact was in box 40 in the original,
13 and in 41, the name B. Komlenovic should appear, whereas in English it
14 appears in box 42
15 41, to move it to box 40
16 those corrections, I think we can admit this into evidence.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's okay in the B/C/S
20 MR. THOMAS: I'd agree, sir.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, then. We'll transpose them
22 like that, and may the document be admitted into evidence.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P573.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Madam Registrar, could we please have Exhibit 65 ter 01166 on the
2 screen, please.
3 Q. Sir, you will see that this document also has the General Staff
4 of the Yugoslav Army shown as the sender with the reference Lunjevica.
5 Can you tell us what that reference to Lunjevica is?
6 A. Lunjevica is most probably as I already explained earlier a
7 warehouse, and the Main Staff of the Yugoslav Army as the sender, the
8 Main Staff of the Yugoslav Army, of course, had all the materiel at its
9 disposal, all the materiel that the Army of Yugoslavia had. So the same
10 error and the same comment that I had before is here. If this was issued
11 by the Main Staff, then it should be noted in the notes issued pursuant
12 to an order from the Main Staff of the Yugoslav Army because the Main
13 Staff did not have under its command any warehouse, not immediately under
14 its command. So this is an error. It was just written down incorrectly.
15 Lunjevica is probably a warehouse, a depot, or a person who filled this
16 out wouldn't bother to put down in the notes the number of the order from
17 the Main
18 the administrator found it simpler to just note Yugoslav Army General
19 Staff. That is what I am assuming.
20 Q. So Lunjevica is a warehouse where?
21 A. Most probably in Serbia
23 Q. Sir, just pause. Sir, just listen to my question and just answer
24 my question, okay? Thank you.
25 Can you look at line 1 of the materiels supplied and just tell us
1 what items were supplied in that line, please.
2 A. 7.9-millimetre rounds, sniper rifle M75. That's the sniper M75.
3 Then we have universal rounds, 7.62-millimetre, M2 and then we have
4 again --
5 Q. Just pause there.
6 A. -- universal bullet, M27.62 millimetre.
7 Q. What is a universal bullet?
8 A. In the Yugoslav Army, one could use several different types of
9 ammunition for a specific weapon. For instance, if you take a rifle, an
10 automatic or a semi-automatic rifle that uses 7.62-millimetre rounds, it
11 would -- it could use this universal, which is a general round, but then
12 there is also an armour bullet and also a flare or incendiary bullet.
13 They are all the same bullets, but the armour bullet can pierce a more
14 solid surface, such as steel, for instance, whereas the universal round
15 is just the regular round that is used, and mostly the ammunition were
16 universal rounds.
17 MR. THOMAS: Thank you. Your Honours, could we please tender
18 that as a Prosecution exhibit.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object regarding this
21 document because the Prosecutor did not show the link between this
22 witness and this document based on your instruction number 27 because in
23 view of the fact that this witness doesn't know anything about the source
24 of this ammunition, he could not be brought into -- into a connection
25 with this document.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
2 MR. THOMAS: Sir, he is a witness who worked in the logistics
3 sector in the VRS and in the JNA before it became the VJ and the VRS. He
4 has identified the procedures that are involved, but importantly, he has
5 described the documentation. He has confirmed that the documentation is
6 used by both the VJ and the VRS. He has explained that it is of a
7 standard form with standard materiel that is entered on there. He is, in
8 my submission, appropriate to authenticate the document, so in terms of
9 admission, that test has been satisfied. But of course, I would accept
10 that the weight to be attached to the document is subject to whatever
11 assessment Your Honours are able to make as to the accuracy of the
12 information contained upon it. But in terms of the relationship between
13 this officer and the documentation concerned, it's my submission that
14 that has been established.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Am I right to say that the witness explained
16 earlier that these documents that we are seeing here are actually
17 receipts, not dispatched documents, and if so, if I'm right in so saying,
18 is it not sufficient for him to know the destination of the document
19 rather than the origin of the document? And can the destination of the
20 document not be ascertained from the stamp at the bottom and the
21 signature of the person who signed?
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that is correct,
23 but the Prosecutor is asking this witness to explain what the source of
24 this document or this materiel was, and the witness said that he didn't
25 know where it had come from and he didn't even know these places,
1 Lukavica ...
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: But does he have to know that [Microphone not
3 activated] or does he have to know something about the document?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does he have to know that, or does he have to know
6 something about the document? I don't expect anybody to know all the
7 towns in the former Yugoslavia
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, in that
9 respect, but if the witness does not have sufficient information or
10 certain information about this document, then the Prosecutor has failed
11 to show the connection between him and the document.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: He has explained to you that this -- according to
13 this document, these things come from the Chief of General Staff of the
14 Yugoslav Army, Lunjevica depot. He doesn't have to know where Lunjevica
15 is, does he?
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I did not understand the witness
17 saying that -- anything about the source of this ammunition. He didn't
18 provide any facts except that it came from the place called Lunjevica,
19 that's all.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then we must go to the transcript. He actually
21 said it is incorrectly completed I like the previous one where they put
22 the Chief of the General Staff -- instead of putting him in a note at the
23 bottom, they put him at the source. That's what he said, and he is
24 nodding in agreement. We can go to the transcript if that's what you
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, but he said, Your Honour,
2 also, that he assumes that this is a warehouse, and this is why I felt
3 that this fact is just guess-work on his part and that it does not fall
4 under your instruction.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: But my question to you is, does he have to know
6 every little town in the former Yugoslavia
8 Chief of Staff, hasn't he established -- what do you say about all that
9 information that he has given about this document?
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree. He doesn't have to know
11 every place, except my conclusion was different about this.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I guess what you are saying is you are
13 withdrawing the objection; otherwise, we overrule it.
14 May the document please be given an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P574.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Madam Registrar, could we please have 65 ter 01177 on the screen,
20 Q. Sir, looking only at the first line of the materiel supplied, can
21 you tell us what that is?
22 A. It says materiel list, and I think it says something like
23 dispatch, Kragujevac, the military bookkeeping centre in Kragujevac.
24 Q. Sorry, just pause. Looking at the materiel supplied, just the
25 first line, are you able to make out what that is?
1 A. You mean what type of resources or what type of materiel was
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Under number 1, it is difficult to tell. Under 2, I see that
5 there's something added in handwriting. It says: Rifle launched
6 grenade, contact action, M6 OP1. But it's added but in handwriting,
7 rifle launched grenade, but I cannot see the first portion. At least,
8 the copy that I see is dark, and you can't really make anything out.
9 Q. If we can scroll to the right-hand first -- now, we're on the
10 left-hand edge of the screen. Are you able to make out up at the very
11 top any dispatch date?
12 A. I don't see the date.
13 Q. And on the right-hand side of the screen, if we can go there,
15 A. Yeah, only here.
16 Q. Just pause for a moment.
17 A. It hasn't been moved yet. I can't see the date on either side.
18 I can only see a date at the bottom.
19 Q. However, if we go down to the comments under the materiel
20 supplied, does it reference an order of the Chief of the General Staff of
21 the Yugoslav Army dated 11 and 12 November 1993?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And does it also show a signature on behalf of the receiver dated
24 the 23rd of November, 1993?
25 A. Yes, I can see that. It says: Received in proper working order
1 and complete on the 23rd of November, 1993, by Cetkovic Dorde, ID
3 MR. THOMAS: That's fine. Thank you, sir.
4 If we could just tender that, Your Honours, as a Prosecution
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted.
7 MR. LUKIC: No objection.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P575.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MR. THOMAS:
13 Q. And sir, I should apologise. I don't mean to cut you off, but
14 please just listen to my questions and try to just limit your answer to
15 the question that I'm asking you.
16 A. Well, I was looking at the Trial Chamber, not really at you, so I
17 didn't notice.
18 Q. That's fine.
19 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, could we please have
20 Exhibit 65 ter 1165 on the screen, please.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1165 on the screen, please.
22 MR. THOMAS:
23 Q. Now, sir, we have as the sender another one of these references
24 to the General Staff of the VJ, but with an annotation "BOG Banja." Do
25 you see that?
1 A. Most probably I think there is a place called Bogutovacka Banja
2 in Serbia
3 Q. Just looking at the first line of the materiels supplied, can you
4 tell us what that is, please?
5 A. Yes. 76-millimetre round, SO M-18. I think this is a round used
6 by the self-propelled guns. There were very few of them. These are old
7 weapons, from World War II, almost. They had gas-powered engines. And
8 the other one is 152-millimetre round. It's for -- it's a Howitzer
10 MR. THOMAS: Thank you.
11 Your Honours, if we could tender that document please, as a
12 Prosecution exhibit.
13 MR. LUKIC: No objection, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. May we have an exhibit number, please.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P576.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes.
17 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Madam Registrar, could we please have Exhibit 65 ter 01167 on the
19 screen, please.
20 Sorry, Your Honours. This time it's me that's found a
21 discrepancy. I wonder if we could just leave that document for a moment,
22 and I'll try to establish what has occurred there.
23 If we can move on to the next one, please, which is
24 Exhibit 01168, please.
25 Q. Sir, could you just explain for Their Honours what the materiel
1 is that is being supplied?
2 A. This is a mortar shell for an 82-millimetre mortar M74. It's an
3 impact round.
4 MR. THOMAS: Thank you.
5 Your Honours, if that could please be tendered as an exhibit.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted. May it please be given an
7 exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P577.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 MR. THOMAS: Thank you.
11 Madam Registrar, could we please have 65 ter 01163 on the screen,
13 Q. Now, we have, sir, as you can see, another reference to the
14 General Staff of the VJ as the sender with the notation "Bogovada." Do
15 you know what Bogovada would be a reference to?
16 A. Bogovada, that is a place, sir, in this area. It was one of the
17 largest warehouses in the former JNA, in Serbia, definitely, probably the
18 largest warehouse.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: While Mr. Thomas is looking up his papers, can I
20 ask a question. I see that on the B/C/S, under the materiel ordered,
21 there's some handwritten sentence there, and I don't see any English
22 equivalent. Can you tell us what is written there?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know which part you are
24 referring to. Which section?
25 THE COURT: The column that says 7.9-millimetre universal,
1 something, something. The next column -- horizontal column below has got
2 handwritten writing --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Universal round. It says up to and
4 inclusive of number 1. Every list had to be concluded in this way so
5 that nothing could be added onto it. So whatever the number of items, 1,
6 2, 3, 4, 5, you had to end it with this.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: So that's what's that in the English right at the
8 bottom there. Thank you so much.
9 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. If that could please be
10 tendered as a Prosecution exhibit.
11 MR. LUKIC: No objection.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May it please be given an
13 exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P578, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
16 MR. THOMAS: Thank you.
17 Madam Registrar, can we have 65 ter 01171 on the screen, please.
18 Q. Now, sir, you will note first of all that the sender is described
19 as military post 98080-06-302, Gornji Milanovac. Can you assist us with
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Where is that?
23 A. Well, Milanovac, I can't tell you exactly where in Serbia
24 but what is interesting here is that mention is made of the military post
25 in Lunjevica that we discussed a little earlier. We can see here the
1 number of this military post. I think it's Lunjevica.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where is the word "Lunjevica"?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it seems -- if you look at
4 the this, if it's from Gornji Milanovac, then probably Lunjevica is in
5 that general area because commands were in bigger towns, whereas the
6 depots were in villages, sometimes 20, 30, or even a hundred kilometres
7 away from the main command.
8 MR. THOMAS:
9 Q. If you look in the box number 11, which shows the place, do you
10 see a reference in there that can help us?
11 A. Number 11?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't that what he has just been explaining,
13 Mr. Thomas?
14 MR. THOMAS: Sorry, sir. Yes.
15 Q. It's number 9, I see, in the B/C/S. The sender, if we could just
16 scroll -- sorry, the receiver, if we could just scroll across there,
17 doesn't have a destination but refers to an order of the Chief of the
18 General Staff of the VJ dated 12 November 1993; is that right?
19 A. Yes. Yes, that's what it says here, but then there's something
20 handwritten up here, Tisca. It's in the upper right-hand corner. It
21 says entered in the books, Tisca. That's handwritten, and Tisca is near
22 Vlasenica. It's in the territory of the Drina Corps.
23 Q. And if we scroll down to the bottom of the document, do we see a
24 reference to receipt on the 22nd of November, 1993?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is there anything in that box or that entry which assists in
2 determining whether this materiel passed over into the Republika Srpska?
3 A. Dorde Cetkovic, a personal identity card issued in Zvornik. A
4 few documents ago, we saw the same man mentioned in another materiel
5 list, and his identity card number is the same. It's all the same, all
6 the details.
7 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. If that could please be
8 tendered as an Prosecution exhibit.
9 MR. LUKIC: No objection.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P579, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Madam Registrar, could we please have 65 ter 01170 on the screen,
17 Q. You will see, sir, that the only -- well, no, let me ask you, is
18 there anything on that document that helps us identify the source of this
20 A. Batajnica. Batajnica is near Belgrade. There's a military
21 airport there, in Serbia
22 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. If that could please --
23 actually, just one moment. Before I do that --
24 Q. The second entry in terms of the materiel that is supplied refers
25 to a round for something called TT, and 100.000 of those were supplied.
1 What is that?
2 A. It's a pistol bullet. There was an M, a pistol which was marked
3 TT. That was a copy of a Russian model from World War II, and it was
4 inherited by the Crvena Zastava factory, and people referred to it as the
5 TT gun, the tetejac, and it could be used for M56 automatic rifles.
6 Q. And the next line down, what is the entry?
7 A. 64-millimetre rocket for a Zolja. A Zolja is a hand-held
8 rocket-launcher, and it's an anti-artillery weapon.
9 Q. And the line below that, we have another similar-looking notation
10 to the last one, but it hasn't been translated. Can you just tell us
11 again what that says, please?
12 A. Up to and including number 3, and then there's the number 3 in
13 writing in brackets.
14 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, sir.
15 Your Honours, if that could please be tendered as a Prosecution
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted into evidence. May it please be
18 given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P580, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Madam Registrar, could we please have 65 ter 01178 on the screen,
23 please, and if we could scroll over to the right, please.
24 Q. Again, sir, the only reference to a receiver, at least in the
25 printed top part of the document, appears to simply talk about the
1 decision of the chief of General Staff of the Yugoslav Army dated
2 12 November 1993
3 A. Yes, I see it. Number 6748-1.
4 Q. Can we tell from that document whether it was received, this
5 materiel, into the Republika Srpska?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the bottom of the English version,
8 MR. THOMAS: And the bottom of the B/C/S, too, please. Thank
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Materiel is issued based on a
11 dispatch from the command, RVP means the air force and anti-aircraft
12 defence, strictly confidential number 54659, dated the
13 19th of November, 1993. It's the same driver. You see one and the same
14 driver keeps cropping up who took over this materiel.
15 MR. THOMAS:
16 Q. Where do we see that reference?
17 A. Well, in the last column, personally received in person by Dorde
18 Cetkovic, and then there's his identity card, a number issued by the
19 Zvornik SUP
20 previous list, as well, the biggest box down at the bottom.
21 Q. Thank you. If we scroll up to the very top of the document,
22 please, I want you to tell us if there's any notations on the top of the
23 document which assist you at all.
24 A. On the left-hand side, there's a military post number 2895,
25 Ladevci, there's Ladevci again, down below, and if we can move this so I
1 can see the whole left side.
2 Q. Just pause for a moment. I'm sorry, if we could just focus on
3 the right-hand side of the document, and I'm asking you if there are any
4 notations. You see there's some handwritten notations at the very top of
5 the document?
6 A. Yes, but it's illegible. At least, the copy I can see here is
8 MR. THOMAS: All right. Thank you.
9 If that document could please be tendered as an exhibit, Your
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I must object to this document
12 because of the translation. I have observed discrepancies. In the
13 English version we have a date, whereas in the B/C/S version there's no
14 date under number 19 -- or 16, that is, and I think there are some other
15 errors, so I ask that this be MFI
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
18 MR. THOMAS: No objection, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
20 an exhibit number and marked for identification.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P581 marked
22 for identification.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is 81 or 82?
24 THE REGISTRAR: 81, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: 81, thank you.
1 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Madam Registrar, could we please have 65 ter 01179 on the screen,
4 Q. First of all, sir, if you look at the name and address of sender,
5 there's no entry in that part of the document; do you agree?
6 A. Sender, it says Nis
7 Q. Sir, just listen to my question. If you look at the part that
8 says name and address of sender, there's nothing entered in that part of
9 the document?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If we go up two boxes we see an entry, however, for the military
12 post 7518-00; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And across from there four boxes, we see the entry Paracin and
15 the place; do we see that?
16 A. Paracin.
17 Q. And that is where?
18 A. In southern Serbia
19 bookkeeping centre is in Nis
20 Q. If we scroll across to the right-hand side of the document,
21 please. Again, we don't have an entry for the receiver, that part of the
22 document referring again to --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- a decision of the Chief of General Staff of the VJ dated 17
25 November 1993; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. However, if we go down to the written comments underneath the
3 materiel that has been supplied.
4 A. Could we move the document a little. That's all right now. In
5 the note here, we see it says the list -- the listed materiel was handed
6 over to the recipient on the 19th of November, 1993, pursuant to an order
7 from a military post dated 17 November 1993
8 military post number and the date, and the authorised person from the
9 recipient was authorised by the co-commander number 21/7-11-122 of the
10 18th of November, 1993.
11 Q. All right, sir. I don't know if we got a complete translation.
12 The authorisation in the bottom line of that comment was issued by which
13 corps command?
14 A. The corps command. It doesn't say which corps. Could we move it
15 a little bit so maybe then we'll see what it says. The other side.
16 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yes, the command of the Drina Corps. Now, I see
17 it. I couldn't see it before on the screen.
18 Q. So are you able to identify from this document the recipient of
19 the materiel?
20 A. Yes. The materiel was received by the command of the Drina
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we scroll the English to the right a little
23 bit, please.
24 MR. THOMAS: And, Your Honours, can we please tender that
25 document as a Prosecution exhibit.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I observed an error in
2 the dates. In column 16 and 19 on the top of the right-hand side, there
3 are dates in the English version but no dates in the B/C/S version. If
4 these are the only errors, we might agree to have this admitted, but I
5 would prefer this to be MFI
6 B/C/S version are blank.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This list is not properly filled in
8 like many of these lists.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The problem is that in the English
10 translation, we have some dates and we have no idea where they come from.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, when that gentleman stands up, you keep
12 quiet. You don't respond to him, because he is really not talking to
13 you. He is talking to us, and they will argue between themselves. You
14 just keep quiet and wait for questions to be put to you. Okay. Thank
15 you so much.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. The MFI?
18 MR. THOMAS: Otherwise, sir, I was quite prepared to accept that
19 the B/C/S version does not contain the date as appears to be -- appear in
20 the translation. I'm happy to concede that the original document doesn't
21 contain those dates and the translation should be viewed in that way.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would -- these are the only errors
24 I have noticed, but I would still prefer the document to be sent for an
25 official translation. I don't want to overburden the translation unit,
1 but still, I can't check everything in the document right away, so I
2 would prefer it to be MFI
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a problem, Mr. Lukic, because you are
4 shifting the goal-posts. You are objecting originally because block 16
5 and 19 have entries in them in the English version and not in the B/C/S
6 version. Your learned friend is prepared to concede that the document
7 might be read as if nothing is written in those two blocks. Now you're
8 telling us that you can't -- you haven't checked everything; it's no
9 longer blocks 16 and 19. What actually is the basis of your objection?
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I observed these two
11 errors immediately. We are trying to expedite matters as far as possible
12 by not insisting on official translations. However, now my associates
13 tell me that column 40 is also a problem.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Column 40.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess then we'll have to MFI it.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My colleagues tell me that column 40
18 has no signature. I don't want to split hairs, but I am afraid I might
19 miss something, Your Honours. That's what I'm afraid of, so I would
20 prefer to have this properly translated.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. 65 ter 01179 is admitted into evidence and
22 marked for identification. May it please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P582 marked
24 for identification.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 Mr. Thomas, we are way beyond the time.
2 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir. It's obviously appropriate to stop. I
3 wonder if we could go into closed session for the departure of the
4 witness from the courtroom.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
6 [Closed session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. The matter stands adjourned
24 until tomorrow afternoon in Courtroom I, quarter past 2.00. Court
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.09 p.m.
2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of
3 February, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.