Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3668

 1                           Thursday, 19 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.  Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have the appearances

12     for the day.  Starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

14     everybody in and around the courtroom.  Mark Harmon, Barney Thomas, and

15     Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And for the Defence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, and to

18     everyone in the courtroom.  Mr. Perisic is represented today in the

19     courtroom by Milos Androvic, Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith, Novak Lukic, and our

20     case manager, Daniela Tasic.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much Mr. Lukic.  Good afternoon, sir.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you have a good rest last night?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How do you feel today?

Page 3669

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not bad, thank you.  Better than

 2     yesterday.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  As and when you feel like you

 4     need a break, don't hesitate to ask.  Okay?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, I understand.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Once again I remind you that you are still bound

 7     by the declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell

 8     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

11                           WITNESS:  WITNESS MP-014 [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before we begin,

14     Mr. Thomas and I agreed about two documents yesterday, that they can be

15     given numbers.  So perhaps we can tender them now and then begin.  We had

16     some problems that had to do with translation, and in the meantime we

17     agreed on two documents.  And I think Mr. Thomas is going to tell you

18     which two documents this pertains to and perhaps then we can give these

19     documents exhibit numbers and then continue.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

21             Mr. Thomas.

22             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, and I'm grateful for the assistance of my

23     learned friend in this regard.  The first document is P593 which was

24     marked for identification.  It was marked for identification on the

25     basis, and perhaps it should come up in e-court, Your Honour, because

Page 3670

 1     there is something that should go into the record about this document.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's come up.  You say it's P593.  So it is an

 3     admitted document?

 4             MR. THOMAS:  It was given a number and marked for identification,

 5     sir.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  And if we could scroll to the bottom of both

 8     versions of the document, please.  Now, sir, Your Honours may recall if

 9     we look at box 36, firstly in the B/C/S version there is a reference in

10     Latin characters to BCP.  And in the English translation, that was

11     correctly translated as VSR, but then there is a reference "Army of the

12     Serbian Republic," which is an addition made by the translator, and the

13     Prosecution accepts, Your Honour, that that -- that VSR does not stand

14     for Army of the Serbian Republic, and the document should be tendered on

15     the basis that effectively Your Honour should not take any notice of that

16     particular reference.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what must the Chamber make of the abbreviation

18     VSR?

19             MR. THOMAS:  On the face of the document, I don't believe there's

20     been any testimony about what that abbreviation means, but what it does

21     not mean is Army of the Serbian Republic.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Army of Serbian Republic is VRS.

23             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, exactly.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you confirm, Mr. Lukic?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 3671

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Then that P593 marked for

 2     identification will be admitted into evidence as P593 subject to what

 3     Mr. Thomas has said.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  The second document should

 5     also come up in e-court, that was also given an exhibit number marked for

 6     identification P610.

 7             Now, if we look at the English translation, Your Honours, in the

 8     section of the document that shows the addressees, Your Honours will see

 9     the reference to the command of the 35th POB Logistics Base.  There was

10     some confusion yesterday, the witness was not able to identify because of

11     the quality of the reproduction on the screen whether the same reference

12     existed in the B/C/S version.  We have retrieved the original copy and

13     shown it to my learned friends where they are in agreement that the

14     reference does exist in the B/C/S version, and so we're agreed that the

15     document can be tendered on the basis that the English translation is an

16     accurate translation of the B/C/S version.

17             We do have the original available if that is ever needed to be

18     cited at any stage but because it has been retrieved from the vault for

19     the purposes of this examination I think we are satisfied.  Well,

20     certainly the parties are happy to leave the scanned versions as they are

21     so long as Your Honours are happy with that correction on the record.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I did have the

23     opportunity to look at the original document and to compare, and I agree

24     that the document in this form is difficult to read in the B/C/S, but the

25     English translation is quite adequate.

Page 3672

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.  In that event,

 2     then P610 will be admitted into evidence and removed from being marked

 3     for identification.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I'm afraid

 7     that I'm going to spend the bulk of today's cross-examination in private

 8     or closed session, and in any case as soon as I have begun I would like

 9     now to ask to move into private session.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

11                           [Closed session]

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Page 3673

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Page 3701

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 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise, Your Honours, for the record we are

 7     in open session.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, ma'am, thank you so much.  I jumped the

 9     gun.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] First, I drew attention to the date

11     because there will be a series of these documents now with the same or

12     similar date, that was my first intention, but in fact I'm interested in

13     this information in box, I think it's box 13 where it says GS VJ.

14        Q.   I wanted to ask, witness, if he thought that that was the same

15     handwriting, if the whole document is written in the same handwriting?

16        A.   It seems to be the same handwriting.  Probably the handlers were

17     filling in the list of receipt, so probably they filled it in.

18        Q.   I cannot hear you through my headphones, I can only hear you like

19     this.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to look at Exhibit 845.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we leave this, exhibit, Mr. Lukic, you're

22     comparing handwritings and you are saying the handwritings are the same.

23     I'd like to know which handwritings you are comparing, and I'd like to

24     know from the witness on what basis he says that they are written by the

25     same person.

Page 3702

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I went too fast.

 2        Q.   This document, sir, that we have just looked at, the information

 3     on the sender should be filled in by the sender as a rule; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And that is what should be read in column, I don't see it very

 7     well, I think it's column 13 where it says GS VJ, that is that

 8     information, and also the military post, all of that should be filled in

 9     by the sender; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   All these boxes of the sender are empty except for the one where

12     it says GS VJ Kremna?

13        A.   Yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, if I may interrupt.  I'm advised that at

15     some stage the witness spoke while your microphone was on, Mr. Lukic, and

16     the suspicion is that his voice might have gone out.  I'm not quite sure

17     how we resolve the problem of the voice that has already gone out.

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  The Registrar will resolve that.  Thank you

20     very much.  You may proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   The senders column that you were explaining to us that should be

23     filled in by the sender, this is -- only the terms "GS VJ" and "Kremna"

24     are filled in, there is no date, there is no military post, there is no

25     seal or stamp or the signature of the sender; is that correct?

Page 3703

 1        A.   [No interpretation]

 2        Q.   And you would agree with me that the recipient who filled in the

 3     other boxes including the evidence number, the date of receipt, and the

 4     stamp of the receiver is the person who also filled in the information of

 5     the dispatcher or the sender of the items?

 6        A.   If the Court would allow me to give a broader explanation, a

 7     couple of sentences more.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Answer as you wish, sir.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the handler, and there was such

10     similar cases later about ammunition that came from Yugoslavia, if you

11     would only get one copy and that copy would usually stay in a

12     higher-ranking unit, specifically here we are talking about the Drina

13     Corps, the handler would -- when he made a record of receipt, he would

14     copy that from the list, then he would copy the right side, enter that

15     into the log-book, and the person who received the goods would sign for

16     it.

17             However, in this list, if he did have the list, on the left side

18     he also would need to fill in the precise details as to which military

19     post these items came from.  What most probably happened was that on the

20     list there was an order of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia,

21     and perhaps for some reason he was lazy or he didn't put anything on the

22     left side - I'm not going to go into the reasons - all he did was he

23     wrote the GS VJ abbreviation, meaning that he did have some order from

24     the General Staff, and then he would then additionally write the origin

25     of the ammunition.

Page 3704

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Can we make it so that the witness can see the entire document,

 3     and then he can tell us where exactly he sees this GS VJ abbreviation?

 4        A.   There's nothing specifically in this document.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now can we show the witness a

 6     document; 585, exhibit.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, I've been trying to follow you, and I've

 8     not followed you clearly.  But on the question comparing handwritings, I

 9     don't know when you talk about the left-hand side or the right-hand side

10     how far you go to the left and how far you go to the right.  But if you

11     go to the B/C/S document that's before us, you'll see where the materiel

12     is being listed, where we talk of 7.62 millimetre and then explain the

13     materiel.  Look at how that 7 is written, and go to the next column to

14     the right, which has just got figures, and look at the 7s there.  The 7s

15     on that side have got a cross in the middle which the 7s on the left-hand

16     side do not have.  And if you look at the 7 on the right-hand top corner,

17     the second from the end, 2117 is exactly the same -- well, not exactly

18     the same, but it is similar to the 7s on the left.  Similarly when you

19     look at 7111.

20             So I would like to know the basis on which it is being said that

21     this form was filled in by one and the same person from beginning to end?

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, we will ask the question to

23     clarify, Your Honour.  Perhaps I was imprecise.  What I would like to

24     know in order to prove or to present my case is the facts that are

25     entered under "Sender."  Perhaps it's my mistake because I did not focus

Page 3705

 1     on the numbers.  But what I am putting to the witness is that the

 2     information on the sender and the receiver was filled in in this

 3     particular case by the receiver?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which one is the sender and which one is the

 5     receiver?  I can see sender, name and address of sender GS VJ.  Which one

 6     is receiver?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The left-hand side of the form where

 8     it says GS VJ, that should be the sender.  The receiver is box number 14

 9     where it says "Command of the Drina Corps Tisca."  So it is my case or my

10     argument that this particular portion was filled by the same person.  In

11     other words, that the receiver filled in the date of receipt, as you can

12     see top right there is the date 25/11/1993, so this -- and also the

13     number under which these items were recorded, 2117-2-95 in Han Pijesak.

14     All of this in the right upper corner, and also the military post of the

15     receiver, 7111, and that this person actually filled also in the

16     information for the sender, GS VJ.  That is what I am put together the

17     witness.

18             I assume that the handlers or the administrators who were

19     handling the ammunition, maybe two of them were working on it and one of

20     them was filling out the quantities and so on.  This in itself is not of

21     great importance to me.  What is important and what I'm trying to show

22     here is that this was in fact filled out by the receiving party.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe we will talk more about it at the time of

24     argument.  That's fine.  You may proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3706

 1        Q.   All right.  Witness, do you agree with me that this was -- that

 2     this name of the sender, GS VJ, was actually filled out by the receiving

 3     party, by the person who received the items?

 4        A.   We should focus on the top of the list, where it says "materiel

 5     list for" and then it says "receipt."  If ammunition was sent to someone,

 6     then here in this heading it should say "materiel list for sending."  In

 7     other words, the materiel list would have been filled in by the sending

 8     party.  Here, whenever we see "receipt" it means that was filled in by

 9     the handler who received the items.  And if we have both sides filled

10     out, then that means that the list is the original list, the original

11     copy.

12        Q.   I agree.  My next question is very short.  Was the receiving

13     party authorised to fill in the boxes that are meant for the sending

14     party?  Just answer yes or no?

15        A.   I cannot answer with just yes and no.

16        Q.   I would like to hear your answer just in brief.  And if you'd

17     like to explain further, Mr. Thomas may want to put the questions to you

18     in redirect.

19             Now, I'm just asking you under the rules is the receiving party

20     authorised to fill out any boxes meant for the sending party, yes or no?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

22             MR. THOMAS:  I am sorry, Your Honour, the witness has made it

23     very clear that the answer cannot be given by a straightforward yes or

24     no, and it's not an appropriate response to say if there's any

25     qualification, we'll save it for re-examination.  The witness has been

Page 3707

 1     very clear that he can't answer the question in that way.  He should be

 2     permitted to answer it in the way which he considers it needs to be

 3     answered.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree.

 6        Q.   Sir, you may give us an answer but be careful we are in open

 7     session.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... of that

 9     answer?

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, we are just discussing this in

11     general, so I think it wouldn't really be necessary.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The administrator when he drew up

13     this delivery sheet for receipt had to fill in the field where it says

14     where the origin of the ammunition is from.  So he did have the right or

15     the authority to fill out -- to indicate where the ammunition had

16     originated so that he would have this information about where the

17     ammunition had come from, but this list is not clear.  We've discussed

18     this already yesterday, the GS VJ, it should have been noted at the

19     bottom as a note, a comment.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Another question.  The handler or administrator, was he

22     authorised to receive, to accept the materiel list that wasn't filled out

23     by the issuing party?

24        A.   Well, of course he was allowed to because all he wanted to make

25     sure was that the issue corresponded to what was written on the paper.

Page 3708

 1     So he just had to justify whatever he had in stock, that had to

 2     correspond to what was on the paper.  The handler really nobody

 3     authorised him for anything else nor asked him to do anything else.

 4        Q.   Yes, but if the materiel list is blank, then he wouldn't know

 5     where the materiel had come from?

 6        A.   Well, if the materiel list was blank, he couldn't know where the

 7     materiel or ammunition had come from unless he was told by one of his

 8     superiors.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation]  All right.  Now, let's take a look

10     at P594 MFI.  Excuse me, just a moment, Your Honour.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I resume?  Could we see now

13     briefly the following document, 577.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I got no translation.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Could we now briefly see document P577 on the screens.  So

17     let's -- just briefly, can you see an order from the Chief of General

18     Staff anywhere on this form?

19        A.   No, you cannot see the number of such an order anywhere on this

20     form.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we just scroll this a bit to

22     the right so the date appears.

23        Q.   I will just read this out for you and you will tell us.  This was

24     received by the command of the Drina Corps on the 23rd of November, 1993;

25     is that right?

Page 3709

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see document P578,

 3     please.

 4        Q.   Would you agree with me that this is an identical document that

 5     the command of the Drina Corps received on the same day, at least that's

 6     what it says here, from the VJ, from Bogovadja, something, and that the

 7     same person filled out this form, the portion at least where the issuing

 8     party is mentioned; is that correct?

 9        A.   That's correct, but it doesn't say the Chief of General Staff, it

10     just says the Yugoslav Army.

11        Q.   That's right.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see document

13     P574.

14        Q.   A day before on the 21st of -- on the 22nd of November, 1994 [as

15     interpreted], the same command, the Drina Corps, confirms that it had

16     received this ammunition, and as the issuing party mention is made of GS

17     VJ, the General Staff, Lunjevica, and the same person filled out both the

18     sender and the receiver part of the document; is that correct?

19        A.   That's correct.  Most of these lists were filled out by the same

20     handler or administrator, the ones we've seen so far.

21        Q.   And you can confirm that there is no mention made here of any

22     order by the Chief of General Staff?

23        A.   Yes.  There is no confirmation anywhere that this was issued by

24     the orders of the Chief of General Staff.  All it says is GS VJ.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Another document, P572.  Exhibit 572.

Page 3710

 1        Q.   The same question for you, sir.  The date here -- if we can just

 2     scroll it to the right a bit so we can see the date.  The Drina Corps

 3     command, the 22nd of November, 1993; in other words, the same date as the

 4     previous document.  There is also no order from the Chief of Staff of the

 5     General Staff anywhere in this document; correct?

 6        A.   No order is mentioned, but the list that we can see now, as we

 7     can see the dates are all similar or maybe even the same, which means

 8     that if we have the same lists dated on the same day and coming from

 9     different military posts, this means that on the same day ammunition was

10     received from various warehouses, various military posts.

11        Q.   But in none of these documents did we see the military post of

12     the issuing party; is that correct?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   And again we see that the same person filled out both sides, the

15     issuing party side and the receiving party side.

16             Can we just scroll it now a bit to the left to compare.

17        A.   Well, this is standard.  The same person filled out this list and

18     completed this form.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a correction in

20     the transcript.  Page 42, line 11.  1994 is mentioned as the year, but in

21     fact from the documents we could see that it was 1993, and I apologise to

22     the interpreters.

23        Q.   I won't go through the documents.  There are three remaining

24     exhibits here, I won't go through them all with the witness, but I do

25     have a question for you, Witness, regarding these documents.  Just a

Page 3711

 1     moment, please.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please move into private

 3     session, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

 5                           [Closed session]

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20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   We saw in these documents a little earlier that practically they

25     all were compiled on the same date or thereabouts.  They were all from

Page 3713

 1     the 22nd from the 25th of November in 1993, and they were all received by

 2     the Drina Corps; correct?

 3        A.   This is how it's stated in the documents.

 4        Q.   Yesterday, or the day before yesterday as well, you confirmed

 5     that supplies and deliveries from Yugoslavia were more frequent when

 6     there were more offensive activities or intensified conflict in a certain

 7     territory?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you recall that at the end of 1993 there was intensive

10     fighting in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps?

11        A.   I think it was around the area of Skelani in Srebrenica, but I'm

12     not quite sure.

13             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation]  Thank you.  Let's see P594, page 2,

14     please.  Could it be retrieved on the screen.  And the previous --

15     preceding page in the B/C/S version, please, I'm sorry.

16             Your Honours, this is the linguistic problem that you used to

17     have, so I'd like to clarify it with the witness, and I've discussed this

18     with the interpreters, and I hope that we are going to find a common word

19     for the word "discharge," "razduzenje."

20        Q.   Witness, it says here --

21        A.   I remember this document from yesterday, and I remember what it

22     states.

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Page 3750

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  At the beginning of today's

 4     session I omitted to mention that Judge David is still indisposed and

 5     that we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis.  May the record show that we

 6     are still sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis today for the same reasons.

 7             Mr. Thomas.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  I'll defer to Mr. Harmon in terms of the

 9     arrangements for next week, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

11             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'll need to go into private session to

12     discuss the arrangements for next week.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

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12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned sine die at

13                           6.56 p.m.

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