1 Monday, 2 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom. Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
9 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances for
11 the day starting with the Prosecution.
12 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
13 Counsel. Appearing for the Prosecution today Mark Harmon and
14 Carmela Javier.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon. And for the
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
18 afternoon to everyone. Today Mr. Perisic is represented by Novak Lukic
19 and Gregor Guy-Smith as Defence counsel. And our legal assistants are
20 here, Milos Androvic, Tina Drolec, and Chad Mair as well as our case
21 manager, Daniela Tasic.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Harmon.
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, may we go into private session.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Court go into private session.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 3756-3759 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 MR. HARMON: If I can call the next witness, Your Honour.
10 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise to Counsel.
11 Your Honours, we are back in open session.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
13 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if I can call the next witness,
14 Mr. Milan Gunj.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, sir.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please make the declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated. Thank
23 you. Mr. Harmon will explain one or two things in relation to your
24 protective measures to you before you start. Yes, Mr. Harmon.
25 WITNESS: MILAN
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Examination by Mr. Harmon:
3 Q. Mr. Gunj, good afternoon.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. In -- you are testifying publicly, but in the course of your
6 public testimony, we will go into private session briefly on a few
7 occasions. Do you understand that?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Right. Sir, could you state your name, please, and spell your
10 last name for the record?
11 A. G-u-n-j. That is my last name. And my first name is M-i-l-a-n.
12 Q. Mr. Gunj, what is your current occupation?
13 A. I'm a professional soldier.
14 Q. How long have you been a professional soldier?
15 A. Since 1992.
16 Q. And prior to becoming a professional soldier, do you have any
17 relationship to the army?
18 A. I did. Starting in 1985, I was a civilian working in the army as
19 the chief cook.
20 Q. And how was it that you transitioned from being a civilian
21 employee in the army to becoming an active soldier?
22 A. Probably my work, the way I carried out all my tasks, all this
23 was viewed in such a way that I was offered this opportunity which I
25 Q. Can you explain to the Judges what specifically from 1992 to the
1 present time have been your duties and responsibilities?
2 A. Starting from 1992 until 1997 I was in charge of military
3 restaurants and canteens. As of 1997, I have been the administrator of
4 the military vacation home at Rajac where I still am.
5 Q. We'll come to that subject in just a minute, Mr. Gunj. Prior to
6 coming to testify in these proceedings, did you provide a statement on
7 the 24th of March 2006 before an investigative judge in the 2nd municipal
8 Court in Belgrade
9 accused person?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you also provide a statement before Judge Plazinic in the
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In those proceedings, Mr. Gunj, you were summoned to the war
15 crimes Chamber, were you not?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. When you gave your statement to Judge Plazinic, those were
18 proceedings that were conducted in my presence, in the presence of
19 Mr. Bretton Randall who was an investigator from my office and in the
20 presence of Mr. Novak Lukic who is the Defence counsel for
21 General Perisic; is that correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Now, let me ask you returning to your duties in -- as an
24 administrator at the vacation home at Rajac. First of all, can you
25 explain going back to 1997 what was the hotel at Rajac? What function
1 did it serve? And what condition was it in?
2 A. When I took over my duty in 1997, the facility was in rather poor
3 condition. It occasionally functioned for the official needs of the Army
4 of Yugoslavia
5 sufficient professional staff, and it was not sufficiently well equipped
6 to be able to function properly over a long period of time.
7 Q. And was the facility at Rajac a facility that was under the
8 jurisdiction and authority of the Yugoslav Army?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How far away from Belgrade
11 A. Between 90 and 100 kilometres.
12 Q. Was it a facility that was open to the public?
13 A. Not at that time. It wasn't at that time.
14 Q. Now, did you also -- did the Hotel Topcider also come within your
15 authority and responsibilities?
16 A. Yes, it did. Initially when I took over my duty that was the
17 case. I was also responsible for the Topcider hotel.
18 Q. Again, can you explain to Their Honours what was the hotel
19 Topcider, what condition it was in.
20 A. The Topcider hotel was in much better condition than the Rajac
21 hotel at the time I assumed my duties because professional soldiers
22 working in the army and their families lived there, so it operated better
23 than the Rajac hotel. It was a facility of the closed type. It was not
24 open to the public, and it was within a barracks.
25 Q. So this then was a facility also under the authority of the
1 Yugoslav Army?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Was it a secure facility? In other words, in order to gain
4 access to it, did you have to do anything particularly to get access to
6 A. You had to come to the main gate of the Topcider barracks within
7 which the hotel was, that was the first check you had to go through. And
8 then when entering the hotel itself, there was also a small porter's desk
9 where the people who lived inside and the people who came to visit were
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which town is this Topcider hotel?
12 MR. HARMON: That was my next question, Your Honour. That's
13 quite all right.
14 Q. Can you answer Judge Moloto's question, please.
15 A. In Belgrade
16 Q. And was this facility located on an army base?
17 A. Yes, in an army base in a barracks.
18 Q. And then I would like to turn -- direct your attention to a third
19 facility. A facility at Stragari. Can you, first of all, tell me
20 whether and under whose authority the facility at Stragari was, and what
21 the facility was.
22 A. This facility was also under the jurisdiction of the Army of
24 It was far larger than the Rajac hotel. It had more room inside. More
1 Q. And how far away from Belgrade
2 A. Between 70 and 100 kilometres.
3 Q. Was that a facility that was open to the public, or was it a
4 secure facility?
5 A. It was not open to the public, and it was secure.
6 Q. When you say "secure," in order to gain access to that facility,
7 what did you have to do?
8 A. You mean Stragari?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. You would get to the gate and there would be a duty officer to
11 check you, and then you would be given a badge which would give you
12 permission to enter.
13 Q. Now, under which command did the facilities that you've just
14 described, the hotel Topcider, the hotel Rajac and Stragari, under which
15 command did they fall?
16 A. They were under the command of the staff administration of the
17 command of the 1st Army of the Army of Yugoslavia.
18 Q. Now, did the unit to which you belonged have a military post
19 number designating it?
20 A. You mean the three buildings, that the three facilities belonged
22 Q. No, I'm talking about a designation for the unit in which you
23 belonged? MP and then some number to follow.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did this witness belong to a unit, Mr. Harmon?
25 MR. HARMON: Well, that's -- he will, Your Honour, if I --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't that the first question. My problem --
2 having listened to the evidence so far, it looks like he has just been
3 working in the catering system of the army.
4 MR. HARMON: I'll clarify that, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
6 MR. HARMON:
7 Q. Mr. Gunj, did you belong to a unit in the Yugoslav Army?
8 A. Yes, I did. I did belong to a unit.
9 Q. And what was your unit?
10 A. It was military post 2082 through 31, and it was the headquarters
11 administration of the Yugoslav Army.
12 Q. Sir, could you identify your chain of command, first identifying
13 your superior officer by name. And I'm talking in 1997.
14 A. My immediate superior was the commander of military post 2082/31,
15 Colonel Momcilo Jovanovic.
16 Q. Okay. And going up the chain of command from Colonel Jovanovic,
17 who was his superior officer?
18 A. Colonel Jovanovic's immediate superior was the Chief of Staff of
19 the deputy of the commander of the 1st Army, General Marjanovic, and then
20 the next up the chain was General Trajkovic who was the commander of the
22 Q. And above General Trajkovic, who was his superior officer?
23 A. According to our military hierarchy, evidently it was the chief
24 of the General Staff because the commander of the 1st Army, as far as I
25 know, is immediately subordinate to the chief of the Main Staff of the
1 Army of Yugoslavia
2 Q. And who was that person, who was the chief of the Main Staff?
3 A. At the time the chief of the General Staff was General Momcilo
5 Q. Now, I want to focus your attention to events that took place in
6 late June or early July of 1997. At that time, Mr. Gunj, were you the
7 manager of the hotel at Rajac?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did something unusual happen?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was that?
12 A. Well, what happened was that one day in the evening some guests
13 arrived in the hotel unannounced, and they were received by the soldier
14 who was there at the time on duty. He rang me up and informed me that
15 some guests had arrived and that he couldn't tell me anything more about
17 Q. And you said, Mr. Gunj, that somebody rang you up. An employee
18 of the hotel, was it?
19 A. Yes. He was an employee. His name was Pasojovic. He was a
20 contract soldier, a professional soldier at the time, and he rang me up
21 personally. I was in Belgrade
23 Q. And after being informed that there were guests at this facility,
24 what did you do?
25 A. I asked that one of the guests talk to me so that I could see
1 what this was about because this soldier evidently didn't dare or
2 couldn't tell me what this was about. After that, a gentleman surnamed
3 Banduka spoke to me, but he couldn't explain what this was about either.
4 He asked me to go there. That was the end of the conversation.
5 Q. Did he give you any other instructions or give you any other
6 information before you went to the hotel at Rajac?
7 A. You have them in mind, the people from the hotel, do you have the
8 telephone call in mind?
9 Q. Well, let me ask you, did Mr. Banduka inform you of anything
10 prior to your leaving to go to the hotel at Rajac?
11 A. Banduka didn't inform me of any details in particular, but he
12 said that everything was fine, that it would be fine when I arrived
13 there, and that I would see what the situation was. Ten minutes later,
14 the phone rang again. There was a male voice that I heard on the other
15 end. He didn't introduce himself. All I know is that he asked me
16 whether he was Mr. Gunj, cabinet of the General Staff, go to the facility
17 and there are guests there, and you will see what it's all about.
18 Afterwards, I got into a vehicle and went to the facility.
19 Q. Let me just clarify what you are evidence is on this point. What
20 was translated to me and what is on the record, Mr. Gunj, is "he didn't
21 introduce himself, all I know is that he asked me whether he was Mr.
22 Gunj, cabinet of the General Staff, go to the facility." Let's clarify
23 precisely what happened.
24 When you received a phone call from this man, did he identify
1 A. No. He did not introduce himself.
2 Q. Did he identify from where he was calling?
3 A. He said, I need Mr. Gunj. I said speaking. It's the office of
4 the General Staff, go to the facility. And when you get there, you'll
5 see what is the situation is. You have guests, they will see who your
6 guests are. And that was what we spoke about. I said fine, I packed
7 very rapidly and set off to the facility.
8 Q. Okay. Now, how long did it take you to get to the facility?
9 A. Usually it takes about two hours of normal driving.
10 Q. Okay. And when you arrived, Mr. Gunj, what did you see?
11 A. When I arrived at the gate, I saw some men in civilian clothing
12 there. Some of them were armed. They were standing aside. The person
13 who approached me did not introduce himself, but they behaved correctly.
14 I wanted them to tell me what was going on. He said go to the hotel,
15 they'll provide you with explanations there. Don't be afraid.
16 Everything is fine. And that is what was said at the gate when I first
17 had contact with them.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were you ever able to determine the identity of
19 the person who said "it's the office of the General Staff, go to the
20 facility, and when you get there you'll see what is the situation"?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't able to do that. I
22 haven't been able to do that to date.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
24 MR. HARMON:
25 Q. Witness, did this man who had identified himself, did he -- was
1 he any more precise when he said that he was calling from the
2 General Staff? Was he any more precise or descriptive when he contacted
3 you during that initial telephone call?
4 A. I've already said that the gentleman did not introduce himself,
5 and the conversation was very brief. Are you Mr. Gunj, I said yes. Go
6 to Rajac, get prepared, and when you arrive there you'll see that you
7 have guests. And that was the extent of the conversation. Good-bye,
9 There were no details presented. I didn't put any questions to
10 this person.
11 Q. Yesterday when I was -- when we met to review your evidence, did
12 you inform me that the person identified himself as being from the
13 cabinet of the Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army?
14 A. The person did not introduce himself, but he said that he was
15 phoning from the office of the Chief of General Staff.
16 Q. Okay. Now, when you arrived at the gate in -- upon going to
17 Rajac, you said there were people who were in civilian clothes and who
18 were armed. Approximately how many people did you see on that occasion?
19 A. Well, there were these people who awaited me at the gate, and
20 there were people who were there when I went down to the hotel, but there
21 were 10 or 15 altogether. I can't be precise, but there were about 10 or
22 15 of them.
23 Q. Did you notice any vehicles in or around the facility?
24 A. Yes, I saw some vehicles by the facility, on the compound of the
25 military facility itself.
1 Q. Approximately how many vehicles did you observe?
2 A. Well, in my assessment between five and seven vehicles.
3 Q. Did you look at the licence plates on those cars or vehicles?
4 A. On the whole, the vehicles were civilian ones, and as far as I
5 can remember, the licence plates were from Republika Srpska.
6 Q. Now, after you --
7 A. At least the ones I saw. It was already dark, so I couldn't see
8 all of them. But when I first arrived there, I noticed that the licence
9 plates on some of them were civilian ones and from Republika Srpska.
10 Q. Now, after you arrived at the facility, what happened?
11 A. When I arrived at the main facility in the compound, I asked
12 certain individuals who were at the gate, I didn't know them, but they
13 were in civilian clothing too. I asked them what was going on. They
14 said wait at the entrance, the boss wants to see you so that you can get
15 to know each other.
16 Q. Then what happened?
17 A. And then I think Rajko Banduka was the first person to come out
18 of the hotel. We met and then General Mladic followed him soon after,
19 and we introduced ourselves to each other. I was somewhat surprised,
20 scared, and confused by this turn of events.
21 Q. And why were you scared or surprised by that turn of events?
22 A. Well, for a number of reasons. First of all, because this
23 happened in my compound, and I had no information that this would happen
24 so it was a surprise event. And secondly, I know that Mr. Ratko Mladic
25 has been accused of certain acts by The Hague Tribunal. And at that
1 point in time I was a state of panic. I was very afraid. I felt uneasy.
2 How is it that this happened in my backyard, so to speak.
3 Q. And how did you know that Mr. -- General Mladic had been accused
4 by the Tribunal of certain crimes? How did you become aware of that?
5 A. Well, I knew just as everyone else did from the media, from the
6 newspapers, from digital media. This is something that was known. It's
7 not as if I had any particular access to such information.
8 Q. Before you actually met General Mladic that evening, you said you
9 met Banduka first; is that correct?
10 A. Correct. Banduka was the first person to come out of the hotel.
11 Q. Did he introduce himself, did he have a complete name or first
13 A. Yes. I'm Rajko Banduka. We spoke to each other on the phone
14 awhile ago, and then I realised that this was the person who had called
16 Q. Did he identify himself by rank?
17 A. No, not initially, he didn't mention his rank initially, but
18 later I found out that he had the rank of a lieutenant through
19 conversations with other people.
20 Q. Did he, Mr. Gunj, have an accent that was different from accents
21 that you hear in and around Belgrade
22 A. Yes, he had a slightly Bosnian accent. That's where he was born.
23 But it wasn't that pronounced.
24 Q. And before he -- before you met General Mladic, did you and
25 Lieutenant Banduka discuss anything in particular that you can recall?
1 A. No. This only took a minute, no more than that. He came out and
2 then he was followed by General Mladic. We introduced ourselves to each
3 other, and there weren't any subjects that were discuss. Not at all.
4 There wasn't even time to do that.
5 Q. And what did -- tell the Judges about your encounter with
6 General Mladic, your first encounter with him. How did that pass?
7 A. Well, he came out, I was standing outside on the terrace. He
8 asked me, are you the person in charge here. I said yes. Do you know
9 me? Do you know who I am? I said yes. He embraced me, and we walked
10 around a bit. He said don't be afraid. Everything will be fine. That's
11 how this encounter passed.
12 Q. After you talked to General Mladic, did you again talk to
13 Lieutenant Banduka?
14 A. Yes, I did. I then participated in the discussion on
15 accommodation, et cetera. We found some other keys because the soldier
16 who contacted me couldn't open up all the rooms. I showed them some
17 facilities that could be used for accommodation because I could see what
18 the situation was like. It was necessary to find accommodation so that
19 everything could function properly. So that was the subject of our
21 Q. Was there any discussion about provisions or supplies that were
22 available at the facility?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I refrained from
25 intervening. I think my colleague Mr. Harmon is putting a leading
1 question to the witness. On page 19, line 9, he said did you meet
2 Banduka again, and then he says what did you talk about, were there any
3 discussions about this. I think he should ask the witness an open
4 question and then the witness can say what happened. But I think that
5 phrasing the question this way amounts to putting a leading question to
6 the witness.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
8 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I don't think agree that that is a
9 leading question. Was there any discussion about provisions or supplies
10 that were available at the facility?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.
12 MR. HARMON:
13 Q. You can answer the question, Mr. Gunj. If you'd like, I can
14 repeat the question.
15 A. At that time after I had seen General Mladic, I and Rajko Banduka
16 discussed technical issues, accommodation, et cetera. We didn't
17 immediately discuss the subjects of provision, the supplies because for
18 that evening they had basic supplies, so we didn't discuss the subject of
19 provisions right at the outset.
20 Q. When did you discuss the issue of provisions?
21 A. On the following day, in the morning. We then had a more
22 detailed discussion about all the relevant issues.
23 Q. And can you relate to Their Honours that discussion?
24 A. Well, on the whole Banduka told me that they had a waiter of
25 their own and a cook who would prepare and provide food. They said they
1 had some food and provisions for the beginning but soon they would
2 require help with provisions, obtaining supplies in the field, and so on
3 and so forth.
4 Q. And what did you say to him in that respect?
5 A. On following day I asked them what I should do. Every morning I
6 have to inform my superior about the situation in the facility. I asked
7 how I should act in this situation now that I was aware of what was at
8 stake. The gentleman told me I should wait a little longer, and he told
9 me when I should provide my information to my superior, and this is how
10 things unfolded.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you discussed accommodation, were you told
12 anything about the duration of their stay at the hotel?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you just go on accommodating them without
15 knowing how long for?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 MR. HARMON:
18 Q. While we are on that particular subject, and this being the first
19 visit, I'm going to ask you to describe, how long did this first visit at
20 the hotel Rajac with General Mladic and his entourage, how long did that
22 A. Given all the time that has passed, I can't assess exactly how
23 long it lasted. For a month, that would be the minimum, but maybe more.
24 The time passed by rapidly because I was constantly on the move
25 travelling. But maybe it was even two months, maybe it lasted for two
1 months, but it certainly lasted for one month.
2 Q. Now, let me go back to an earlier answer that you gave, Mr. Gunj.
3 You answered at page 21, I'm looking at starting at line 2, your answer
5 "How should I handle this situation now that I was aware of
6 what was at stake? And the gentleman told me that I should wait a little
7 longer, and he told me that I should provide any information to my
8 superior, and that is how things unfolded."
9 So the question I want to ask you is, did he tell you you should
10 provide information to your superior? Or did he tell you something else?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I think you've slightly misquoted the
12 witness. I think the translation says:
13 "... And he told me when I should provide my information to
14 my superior."
15 MR. HARMON: My apologies. I'm sorry.
16 Q. Witness, I misread the answer that is recorded.
17 When did he tell you, or did he ever tell you when it was
18 appropriate to tell your superior?
19 A. No precise time was mentioned. He said I should wait for a few
20 days, and he would then tell me that the situation was under control and
21 that I didn't have to worry. And that is how I acted.
22 Q. So after their arrival, was there a -- did you report to your
23 superior the following day?
24 A. No, I did not report to my superior.
25 Q. When did you first report to your superior after the arrival of
1 General Mladic and his entourage?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: First of all, did you ever report at all? Did you
3 report at all to your superiors at any time?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I reported to my superior a
5 few days later. I went on official trips to Belgrade on one or two
6 occasions, and later I requested the authorisation to report to my
7 superior so that he could be aware of what the situation was.
8 Q. And from whom did you seek that authorisation to report to your
9 superior about the situation?
10 A. I asked Mr. Banduka for authorisation since I had most contact
11 with him.
12 Q. When did you ask Mr. Banduka for authorisation to report to your
14 A. I asked him for such authorisation almost every day, but I think
15 that he said a few days later that I could report to my superior. I
16 can't remember exactly how many days passed, but it wasn't long.
17 Q. Mr. Gunj, did you report General Mladic's visit to anyone else
18 prior to reporting it to your superior?
19 A. No. I didn't.
20 Q. Why not?
21 A. Because Mr. Jovanovic was my immediate superior, and I would only
22 forward reports to him about the situation in the facility, because
23 according to the chain of command, he was responsible for me and for the
24 entire facility.
25 Q. Now, can you explain to the Judges the circumstances under which
1 you did describe to -- was it Colonel Jovanovic, was that his rank? When
2 it was that you reported to Jovanovic about the presence of Mladic?
3 A. I personally visited him in his office in Belgrade. We were
4 alone. I told him everything I have just told you. I told him about the
5 guests in the facility, and I told him about the ongoing activities
7 Q. What was his reaction or response?
8 A. He was very much surprised and somewhat suspicious because I
9 don't think he found it easy to believe that there were such things
10 taking place in my compound. Given his reaction, I would say that he was
11 not aware of the fact that these things were going on in my compound.
12 MR. HARMON: Could we go into private session for a moment.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 3779-3780 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Harmon.
4 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm about to change topics, and this
5 would be a convenient time to break.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
7 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll then take a break and come back at 4.00.
9 Court adjourned.
10 --- Recess taken at 3.26 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 3.59 p.m.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
13 MR. HARMON:
14 Q. Mr. Gunj, earlier in your evidence you testified that
15 Lieutenant Banduka had informed you early in one of your earlier
16 conversations that the provisions of food and water and supplies that
17 were available to General Mladic were limited; is that correct?
18 A. I don't understand your question.
19 Q. Okay. A few minutes ago you testified about a discussion that
20 you had with Lieutenant Banduka in which he informed you that the amount
21 of food and the amount of drinks that were available to General Mladic
22 and his entourage was limited. Do you recall that evidence?
23 A. Yes, yes. He informed me that there was food and drink available
24 for a brief period of time only.
25 Q. And since this stay was quite prolonged, you said a minimum of a
1 month and possibly longer, what was the source of supplies of food and
2 drinks to General Mladic and his entourage while he was staying at the
3 hotel Rajac?
4 A. For the first few days they had their own food drink they had
5 brought with them. When they ran out of this, food and drink was bought
6 on the market, and then supplies came from the resources of the army,
7 from my unit. As time passed -- as time went on, the frequency
9 Q. When you say the frequency increased, what do you mean by that?
10 A. As the supplies they had ran out, more and more supplies from my
11 unit had to be brought in.
12 Q. And how --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I just want to understand something here.
14 You said when the supplies ran out, they bought on the market, and then
15 they got units -- supplies from your unit. How long did they buy from
16 the market?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A short period of time.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And then what --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was combined. They used more
20 than one source. They used what they had brought with them, and they
21 also bought some. But as their own stocks decreased, they continued
22 buying a little on the market, but more and more came from my unit.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
24 MR. HARMON:
25 Q. And how did that -- the supplies from your unit, how were they
1 procured and how were they delivered to General Mladic and his entourage?
2 A. To start with I received certain sums of money from them for
3 articles I went out to buy on the market. Other supplies I picked up
4 personally in my car in the Topcider warehouse.
5 Q. To whom -- when supplies were needed did you requisition supplies
6 from another source, from the army sources, or did you require or request
7 supplies from any particular source in the army?
8 A. I went to Belgrade
9 central warehouse. There was no written requisition form or anything
10 like that. It was up to the people who were there to give me as much as
11 they thought I needed. I'm referring to food stuffs and also material
12 for personal hygiene and for cleaning the facility.
13 Q. Was it standard operating procedure in the VJ to not have
14 paperwork for requisitioned supplies?
15 A. I only requisitioned the supplies orally. The people who issued
16 them to me probably kept records. But I did not have to justify the
17 supplies in writing.
18 Q. Was that standard operating procedure?
19 A. You mean under normal circumstances would that be the procedure?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. No, no. It was not standard procedure. The standard procedure
22 is quite different.
23 Q. Can you describe the standard procedure, please.
24 A. The standard procedure as regards the facility would be a
25 requisition form for seven days for all the articles needed, and based on
1 that requisition form, the articles and supplies would be issued, and
2 daily documents would have to be filled in justifying the expenditure.
3 And then at the end of the month all of the plus and minus parts of the
4 column would have to be added up, and the condition, the situation, the
5 state would have to be worked out.
6 Q. Why was there no paperwork kept under these circumstances?
7 A. No records were kept because it was suggested to me that I
11 MR. HARMON: May we go into private session.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
13 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 MR. HARMON:
8 (redacted) became acquainted
9 with the situation and the events at the facility, he agreed and approved
10 that gradually supplies should begin arriving, supplies of certain
11 material, and that I should not keep any records of this.
12 Q. Now, let me -- at the end of General Mladic, his stay and his
13 entourage's stay at the hotel Rajac that we've been discussing, do you
14 know where General Mladic went? And do you know the circumstances of his
16 A. I did not know then where he went, but the circumstances were the
17 usual. It was nighttime, vehicles arrived, men. I didn't know where the
18 gentleman was going to.
19 Q. Did you subsequently learn where he went?
20 A. Yes, I did later on, yes.
21 Q. What did you learn and from whom did you learn it?
22 A. When I arrived on official business in Belgrade to the Topcider
23 barracks in Belgrade
24 Mladic's security who had been there with him, and chatting informally
25 with them I found out that they occasionally went to Stragari and that
1 Mladic was there.
2 Q. Was that confirmed to you by other sources as well?
3 A. In February of the following year, the transfer of the general
4 with part of his entourage was arranged again from Stragari to Rajac, and
5 that was when I definitely learned that Mladic had been transferred from
6 Rajac to there because he had come back now.
7 Q. And did anybody in particular inform you that General Mladic and
8 his entourage had been at Stragari?
9 A. No, those were the two sources. Nobody informed me officially,
10 nor did anyone tell me anything about it.
11 Q. Okay. Now, on how many other occasions, beside this long
12 protracted visit we've been discussing, on how many other occasions was
13 it that General Mladic and his entourage returned to the hotel in Rajac?
14 A. They came back on two occasions in 1998 from Stragari to where I
15 was, and they stayed there for a week because there was an eventful
16 hunters being held in Rajac attended by many citizens, so evidently he
17 couldn't be there. And the same happened the next year, 1999. And in
18 2000, I'm not sure whether he came or not, I think he did, but stayed
19 only briefly. I'm not sure, as regards his coming there from Stragari.
20 And in 1988, as the witness said, and 1989 I think, that's when he came
21 again to the facility.
22 Q. Mr. Gunj, your statement as translated on the monitor says that,
23 and I'm going to quote:
24 "I'm not sure as regards his coming from Stragari. And in
25 1988 [as interpreted], as the witness said, and 1989 [as interpreted], I
1 think, that's when he came again to the facility." Are those years that
2 I've quoted accurate or inaccurate? 1988?
3 A. I think 1988 and 1989 are correct, but I'm not sure about 2000,
4 as I said.
5 Q. Well, let me -- the first time you observed General Mladic was in
6 1997, that was his first visit according to your earlier evidence.
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. The transcript as recorded says that his subsequent visits were
9 in 1988, which is nine years before his first visit. So my question to
10 you is -- my question to you is, is what appears on the transcript 1988
11 accurate or inaccurate?
12 A. No, no. It's an error. It's not correct.
13 Q. What should it be?
14 A. It should be 1998 and 1999.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
16 And you may have said this, but the duration of those visits, are
17 you able to tell us the duration of each of those visits.
18 A. As I've already stated, the visit in 1998 from Stragari to Rajac
19 lasted up to about eight days. I think it was in late January or in
20 February. I think it was February actually. And the following year it
21 was the same. And in the year after, I'm not sure. But if he did stay,
22 he stayed only for two or three days. The two brief visits in between
23 were one-day visits only.
24 Q. Now, during those visits of General Mladic and his entourage, the
25 subsequent visits, can you describe what the circumstances were with
1 regard to the provision of food, drinks, and supplies?
2 A. The circumstances were the same as when he first came to stay.
3 We provided food and everything else that was necessary for him to stay
4 there for a few days.
5 Q. During those subsequent visits when you provided the food, was
6 there paperwork maintained showing that food had been provided? Or was
7 it the same as had occurred during the first visit?
8 A. The situation was the same as when he first came to visit.
9 Q. Okay. Now, during these visits, these numerous visits that
10 you've described, did General Mladic have visitors?
11 A. You are referring to the visits from Stragari when he came back
12 to visit Rajac?
13 Q. No, let me rephrase that question.
14 During these subsequent visits, during the first visit and during
15 the subsequent visits of General Mladic and his entourage to the hotel
16 Rajac, did anyone visit General Mladic that you personally observed?
17 A. When he first stayed in the hotel, I observed and I know that
18 General Curcin came to visit him. Later on Colonel Ljubisa Vukovic, who
19 later was promoted to the rank of General; my commander,
20 Colonel Jovanovic; and captain Karadzic.
21 Q. And did -- during the subsequent visits, did he have other
22 visitors beside those you've named?
23 A. On about two occasions Mr. Ljubisa Beara was part of that
24 entourage. That was the first time he was there, but he didn't show up
25 when Mladic visited on later occasions.
1 Q. And --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry.
3 MR. HARMON: Yes, sir.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The transcript says Mr. Ljubisa Beara was part of
5 that entourage. They don't say part of the visitors. Now, I don't know
6 was he part of the entourage, and if it's part of the entourage, which
8 MR. HARMON:
9 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Gunj, was Ljubisa Beara a visitor? Or was he
10 part of the Mladic's entourage that came and went from the hotel Rajac?
11 A. Ljubisa Beara was not in the entourage when Mladic first came to
12 visit, but he arrived after awhile. However, judging by his actions and
13 behaviour, I understood him to be part of that team.
14 Q. How did you come to that conclusion?
15 A. Quite simply because Mr. Beara, as I saw, coordinated activities
16 with Mr. Darko Pecanac as regards securing the facility, travel, and
17 other things which I had no access to. But I concluded from the way they
18 acted and talked that Mr. Pecanac was subordinated to him as regards
19 security for the facility.
20 Q. And who was -- you mentioned a name -- you mentioned the name
21 Darko Pecanac. Who was Darko Pecanac?
22 A. Darko Pecanac was the security officer in General Mladic's
23 entourage while he was staying in my facility. And he arrived as part of
24 that team.
25 Q. Did he have an accent that was particularly identifiable accent?
1 A. Yes, almost everyone had Bosnian accents. Almost all those
2 people. Some had a stronger accent, others less strong, but they all
4 Q. Now, did you ever see General Trajkovic who was the 1st Army
5 commander come to your facility and visit General Mladic?
6 A. Yes, I did, I saw General Trajkovic. After awhile he came to
7 visit General Mladic with his wife.
8 Q. Now, in addition, Mr. Gunj, to the visitors that you personally
9 observed visiting to General Mladic, did you hear from other persons
10 about the identities of visitors who had come to visit General Mladic
11 while he was staying at the hotel Rajac?
12 A. Yes, I heard from the people in General Mladic's security that
13 while I was away, because I had to be away for periods quite often, the
14 then Chief of General Staff Mr. Momcilo Perisic came to visit; and the
15 then chief of the VVA, Mr. Aca Jovicic; and a little later a General of
16 the of the Republika Srpska, Mr. Milan Gvero. This is information I
17 learned from the security men, but I did not see them myself because I
18 wasn't there at the time.
19 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, may we go into private session.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 3791-3795 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And one other thing just to assist my
3 colleague, we welcomed -- we have both -- correction, we have both
4 statements in the e-court system so this can be called up.
5 MR. HARMON: That's fine, I don't have it in the e-court system;
6 I have a hard copy. So whatever is most convenient. If I can call -- if
7 you could give me that number, Counsel, I would call it up on the screen.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's a statement given to
9 Judge Plazinic; isn't that correct?
10 MR. HARMON: That's correct.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D 005910.
12 MR. HARMON:
13 Q. Witness, can you see on the monitor in front of you what is the
14 first page of this -- an interview, what is described as an interview on
15 the 6th of November, 2007?
16 A. Yes, I can see.
17 MR. HARMON: Okay. Now, with the assistance of the Registrar, if
18 we could turn to the last page in the English and the last page in the
19 B/C/S. Second to last page in the B/C/S, apparently. If we can go to
20 the next page in the English. I'm looking to go to page 8 in the English
21 version, please. All right.
22 Q. Now, perhaps Mr. Lukic can assist me because I don't read
23 Cyrillic. But there's a paragraph that starts with: "After Perisic's
24 visit to Mladic ..." It's on page 8 in the English version, and it is
25 about mid-page. I can't direct the witness to where the Cyrillic passage
1 starts if it's on that page at all, frankly.
2 A. I can see that. I can see it.
3 Q. Now, in that statement to Judge Plazinic, does reading that
4 passage refresh your recollection, Mr. Gunj, about the events that you've
5 testified to here? In other words, did you inform Judge Plazinic, that
6 after a visit to Mladic that you had heard about there was another visit
7 when you were at the hotel when you were "sitting outside the hall and at
8 one point Perisic came out of the hall and suggested to me that Mladic's
9 stay at the hotel should not be spoken about much." Do you remember
10 giving that statement to Judge Plazinic?
11 A. Yes, that's what it says. That's what it says here in this
13 Q. And last night or yesterday when you were being -- reviewing your
14 evidence with me and with an investigator and an interpreter, did you
15 have an opportunity to review the statement that was prepared after the
16 session that was spent with me and with the investigator and the
17 interpreter? Did you review a statement?
18 A. Yes, I did review it.
19 Q. Did you sign that statement?
20 A. I did, I signed it.
21 Q. And in that statement, Mr. Gunj, did you state that
22 General Perisic visited Mladic at the hotel Rajac while Perisic was chief
23 of the VJ General Staff. Mr. Gunj knew who Perisic was. Perisic spent a
24 short time conversing with Mr. Gunj and told him not to spread
25 information about what was happening and to take care not to spread
1 information about Mladic's stay. Is that in a previous statement that
2 was prepared last night as well?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that an exhibit?
4 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry, Your Honour?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that an exhibit.
6 MR. HARMON: No, I hadn't planned to introduce either one of
7 these as an exhibit, but given that if I can -- I only have a hard copy,
8 Your Honour. If I can produce a hard copy.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you talking about this statement that you
10 reviewed with the witness last night, that's what you are reading from,
11 because you are not reading from the document before us.
12 MR. HARMON: No, I understand that, Your Honour. In other words,
13 there are two previous consistent statements with his evidence before.
14 The first I've shown you, Your Honour, the testimony before
15 Judge Plazinic, this statement I have not put on the -- in the electronic
16 system. I only have a hard copy, and I can only remind the witness with
17 a hard copy and read verbatim from this statement and ask the witness if
18 that's the statement that he made yesterday. And then I could,
19 Your Honour, with the Court's permission, I could get this put into the
20 electronic system, and we could give it a number.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Things are done in reverse in this place.
22 MR. HARMON: No, I understand. I hadn't anticipated that we
23 would get to this particular point, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Even then, shouldn't you discuss the fact of a
25 statement with the witness first and tender that statement before you
1 read it out to the witness.
2 MR. HARMON: Well, I'm at your disposal, Your Honour. I have a
3 hard copy only. I do not have an electronic version. Since we are
4 dealing with the electronic era --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: If the only copy you have is a hard copy. Then
6 you say, Your Honours, I'm in this predicament, this is the only copy I
7 have. Can I tender it? May I ask leave to tender this one before going
8 into the content of the document.
9 MR. HARMON: Well, then I stand corrected, Your Honour. If I
10 could tender a copy of this statement in a hard copy to be followed by --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, you could do that. But you have told the
12 witness the content of the statement. So it's water under the bridge
14 MR. HARMON: I understand. He's signed this statement. It's a
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't dispute.
17 MR. HARMON: Okay. I'm at your disposal, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead. Prosecute your case.
19 MR. HARMON:
20 Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Gunj: I have a copy of a statement, a
21 proofing note, information report, that you signed yesterday evening. Do
22 you remember signing a proofing note yesterday evening?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Prior to signing that proofing note, was the note reviewed by you
25 with an interpreter, was it read back to you in a language you
2 A. Yes, the interpreter read out the entire statement to me.
3 Q. Now, a portion of that statement reads as follows, and I would
4 like you to use your recollection and affirm whether this is what was
5 read out to you last night:
6 "General Perisic visited Mladic at the hotel Rajac while
7 Perisic was the chief of the VJ General Staff. Mr. Gunj knew who Perisic
8 was. Perisic spent a short time conversing with Mr. Gunj and told him
9 not to spread information about what was happening and to take care not
10 to spread information about Mladic's stay."
11 Do you remember that portion of the statement being read back to
12 you before you signed the statement?
13 A. I do remember that.
14 Q. Now, I'm going to read another passage to you, and I'm going to
15 ask you if this is what you recall was read back to you. Just give me a
16 minute to find the passage. This is the passage I'd like to read to you.
17 If you would either affirm or not confirm that this is what was read back
18 to you before you signed this statement. There was a portion of this
19 paragraph where you identified people who had come to visit
20 General Mladic. And then the passage goes on, the paragraph goes on:
21 "In addition to the visits of the persons identified above, which
22 he personally observed, he heard from Mladic's security personnel that
23 General Gvero had visited Mladic on another occasion as had
24 General Perisic."
25 Now, do you recall that portion being read back to you before you
1 signed this particular information report?
2 A. Yes, I remember that.
3 MR. HARMON: And, Your Honour, if the Court please, I will ask
4 first of all that the statement that is on the monitor be given an
5 exhibit number.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The statement is admitted into -- yes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I object to this suggestion,
8 Your Honours, because I think that your guide-lines in paragraph 4 and 5
9 are quite clear. Entire statements can't be admitted unless there is a
10 reason for admitting the entire statement. It's a practice that we were
11 to follow was the practice that we've been following to date, namely that
12 parts of statements should be admitted through the transcript, through
13 the witness. And if we admit entire statements, well, then we'd be
14 setting different rules. The statements refer to many things, not
15 necessarily to the subject that is at issue. So I suggest that we abide
16 by the rules that we have been respecting so far. We should show part of
17 the statement to the witness and then that could become part of the
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just so I understand the gravamen of your
20 objection, Mr. Lukic, are you saying the statement should not be admitted
21 into its entirety, only the portion, or are you saying ...
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes, that is my position.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
24 Mr. Harmon.
25 MR. HARMON: I have no objection, Your Honour, to Counsel's
1 suggestion that the portion that I read. But I would like to add one
2 additional page if I could. I've given Your Honours page 1 of this
3 document, which identified in the presentation of the Judge, and I'd like
4 to also refer to page 2, because page 2 indicates what this witness was
5 instructed before he gave his evidence, and I think that is also
7 If I could have page 2 of the English just on the monitor.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: What he was instructed before he gave his
10 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Instructed by who?
12 MR. HARMON: By Judge Plazinic.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The warning?
14 MR. HARMON: The warning, yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
16 MR. HARMON: So if we could go to page 2, and in the B/C/S, I am
17 afraid I'll need to -- probably page 2, or Mr. Lukic could be of
18 assistance to me in that regard.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's the first page in B/C/S version.
20 It's in bold in this paragraph, there's warning from the investigative
21 judge in accordance with the law on investigative procedures, et cetera.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Happy with that, Mr. Lukic? Those pages being
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On the whole I agree to having the
25 first page admitted. But on the second page, well Mr. Harmon showed part
1 of the second page, I agree that that could be admitted, but the second
2 page also contains numerous other facts. And this is what I'm objecting
3 to because in fact --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because Mr. Harmon wants to admit the warning by
5 the Judge.
6 MR. HARMON: Yes. That's -- and I don't want to introduce the
7 personal data, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then those pages will be admitted into
9 evidence. May they please be given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, those pages will be Exhibit P 614.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MR. HARMON: And then, Your Honour, in respect of the information
13 report that was, I've quoted, I only seek admission of the paragraphs
14 that I read of from the information report. I would seek admission of
15 the caption of the document which identifies the institution, the
16 submitter, the date in the subject. And no more than that because the
17 rest is the statement, and it would fall into the same problems at that
18 Mr. Lukic objects to and I agree with. And I would like to introduce
19 from that particular information report only the two portions of the
20 paragraphs that I read into the record.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The pages are admitted. May they please be given
23 an exhibit number.
24 MR. HARMON: At this point, Your Honour, I'm afraid they are not
25 -- are they in the system, Carmela? No, they are not in the system yet,
1 Your Honour. This is the hard copy. If I could be permitted to submit
2 this to the Registrar.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, after circulating it to your colleagues on
4 the opposite side and showing it to the Bench. And I notice when you
5 raise it that it's got highlight on it. Do you have a clean copy?
6 MR. HARMON: We are getting one, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MR. HARMON: So we'll have one, Your Honour, very shortly.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And do show it to your colleagues before you file
13 MR. HARMON: I will, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry about that, Mr. Harmon.
17 MR. HARMON: Should that be -- should we reserve the
18 identification of that document as an exhibit until we actually get into
19 the electronic system?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, I suggest we do that because then we lost
21 the --
22 MR. HARMON: That will be fine.
23 Okay, if I could turn to then 65 ter number 9110, please.
24 Q. Mr. Gunj, in front of you is a document that's dated the 29th of
25 August, 1997. It is an order. Have you seen this document before coming
1 into court today?
2 A. Yes, I saw it yesterday during the proofing session.
3 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention, Mr. Gunj, to page 2 of this
5 MR. HARMON: Actually, could we leave it on that page for just a
6 moment, I'm sorry.
7 Q. This document is a -- it's from the 1st Army headquarters
8 administration. It's dated the 29th of August, 1997. And it relates to
9 issuing moveables and fuel replenishment of VRS vehicles, and it is an
10 order; is that correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 MR. HARMON: Now, if we could go to page 2 in the English and
13 page 2 in the B/C/S version.
14 Q. There's is signature at the lower right-hand side of this
15 document. Can you identify the signature?
16 A. It's Janko Aleksandric's signature. He was deputy commander of
17 the military post or rather of colonel of Momcilo Jovanovic.
18 Q. There's a word on the B/C/S on the right-hand side "za [phoen]."
19 Can you explain what that means?
20 A. That means that the gentleman had the authority to sign this
21 document if his superior was absent.
22 Q. So in this situation it was Janko Aleksandric who signed for
23 Momcilo Jovanovic; is that correct?
24 A. That's correct, yes.
25 Q. On the left hand, lower left-hand side of this document, it
1 indicates to which formations this order was sent. And I'd like to start
2 at the top where it says in the English version "POB command." Can you
3 identify, what is the POB command?
4 A. That's command of the rear battalion which is part of the
5 headquarters administration, or the command of the logistics battalion.
6 Q. And what are their duties and responsibilities?
7 A. They had the entire logistics base serving the units of the
8 headquarters administration and in part of the army as regards, for
9 example, fuel, vehicle maintenance, and repairs, certain equipment and so
10 on and so forth.
11 Q. Now, the second notation beneath that it says "KS duty officer."
12 What does that mean?
13 A. That's the duty officer of the headquarters administration.
14 Q. And underneath that there's a notation that says "duty officer at
15 the barracks." Can you explain that.
16 A. Yes. That's the duty officer in the Topcider barracks where the
17 command was and most of the units subordinate to the rear battalion.
18 Q. And the final notation in that column says "a/a," what does that
20 A. Archives. Archives.
21 Q. Now. On this -- this order, if you go to paragraph 10 of this,
22 can you see paragraph 10, Mr. Gunj?
23 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I can.
24 Q. This particular order that we are examining, did this render void
25 a previous order issued by the 1st Army?
1 A. Well, the way it's written here, yes, that's right.
2 Q. The previous order was written on the 10th of July, 1997
4 A. That's correct. That's what it says here in the document.
5 Q. Now if we could go to paragraph 7; it would be on the previous
6 page. And it says that authorisation for the procurement and issuing of
7 these items based on the requests of the 1st Army headquarters
8 administration will be given by the 1st Army Chief of Staff, and in his
9 absence by the 1st Army chief of operational affairs and training organ.
10 Can you identify the persons who would fill each of those positions?
11 A. I think that at that time the Chief of Staff of the 1st Army was
12 Mr. -- or rather General Svetozar Marjanovic, and the chief of the
14 Q. Can we go to the top of this document, the first paragraph under
15 the words "to command." This order -- was this order being issued on the
16 basis of orders received by a Superior Command?
17 A. Yes, because this order is linked to the numbers up there above
18 the word "I hereby order."
19 Q. So then this document is being linked to 1st Army Command number
20 1310-9 of 3 July 1997
21 24/1310-12 of 27 August 1997
22 A. That's correct. That's what it says in this document.
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I would ask that this document be
24 admitted into evidence.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due respect, I
2 think Mr. Harmon has not shown what he has to under Article 27 of the
3 guide-lines because we can all read what Mr. Harmon has read, and the
4 witness only confirmed what the document says. I don't think that any
5 relationship between the witness and the document has been established to
6 what Mr. Harmon was supposed to show. We could all read what it says
7 here and that this was issued pursuant to the previous order. It all
8 follows clearly from all the questions put by Mr. Harmon to the witness,
9 but as I understand Your Honours' guide-lines, the party tendering the
10 document has to show the relationship between the witness and the
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
13 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, there is a series -- I'm going to
14 direct Your Honours' attention to a series of documents interlinked.
15 This is the first of five documents. So I'm satisfied at this point in
16 time to mark it this for identification. I would like to explore the
17 other documents with the Court, and then I will seek admission of those
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but, Mr. Harmon, you don't do that. Are you
20 now going to show the link between the witness and this document via
21 other documents?
22 MR. HARMON: I am going to -- the link between -- yes, I am,
23 Your Honour. And this document was issued by --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then start with the link, sir, before you ask for
25 admission of this document. You can't want the admission of this
1 document to be dependent on the admission of other documents. You got to
2 demonstrate a link between this witness and this document. That's what
3 the guide-line says.
4 MR. HARMON: The only link I can establish with this document in
5 isolation is that this document was issued by the deputy commander of his
6 formation. And it relates to --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That doesn't link up with him.
8 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm again in a dilemma. When the five
9 documents are presented to Your Honours, you will see a coherent picture
10 that will link the five documents to the evidence that has been given by
11 this witness about certain things that occurred in relation to the stay
12 of General Mladic at the VJ facilities.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but this is nothing do with the
14 General Mladic's stay at the VJ facilities. It's got to do with
15 supplying certain supplies and fuel to the VRS vehicles.
16 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I need --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And this gentleman, as I understand his testimony
18 so far, deals with his -- area of responsibility was in the facilities --
19 in what do you call it? The hotel accommodation industry. Not supply of
21 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the you will see a series of orders,
22 one deals with fuel. The witness has testified that provisions had to be
23 provided to General Mladic and his entourage. That included fuel
24 according to these documents, that fuel had to be provided. These five
25 documents were documents that were issued during the time-period when
1 General Mladic and his entourage were staying on VJ facilities. And the
2 Court can draw from these documents inferences as to what was ordered,
3 who ordered it --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon, if you brought a witness here who
5 dispensed fuel to the VRS vehicles pursuant to this order, you'll
6 established a link between the witness and this document. This document
7 is not addressed to this gentleman. The four people to who are copied
8 are neither none of his -- none of them is his institute. I really don't
9 know how you establish a link. That supplies are supposed to be given to
10 the VRS or to Mr. Mladic very well be so. This specific supply has
11 nothing to do with this witness. He can testify to the supplies that he
13 MR. HARMON: He can, Your Honour. And on those supplies he said
14 there were no written orders.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's true.
16 MR. HARMON: But he also said that the people with whom he was
17 dealing were his superior officers including Colonel Jovanovic.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right.
19 MR. HARMON: He testified that Colonel Jovanovic superior officer
20 was General Trajkovic and General Trajkovic's superior officer was
21 General Perisic. These documents that I will -- I'd like to tender to
22 Your Honours are a series of documents that were issued during the period
23 time when General Mladic and his entourage were staying at the hotel
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That may be so.
1 MR. HARMON: And they also deal with the provision of food and
2 other objects.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those that deal with the provision of food, if
4 there are any, and he can identify him as related to his facilities,
5 fine. But obviously these instructions or these orders were given, as I
6 understand it now, to various little departments within the VJ. Now one
7 such department was the witness's department. One such other department
8 was the fuel department. Now, that the fuel department got an order to
9 supply diesel to people or fuel to the VRS does not bring this witness
10 into contact with it simply by virtue of the fact that he has an order to
11 supply food. These are orders that went to two different facilities. He
12 can talk about his facility.
13 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I have another witness. If this could
14 be marked for identification, later there will be another witness who I
15 believe will more precisely link this document to --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm not opposed as a rule but why
18 should not the document be put to the witness then, and if you believe
19 it's more practical, it can be MFIed.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: But Mr. Lukic be specific.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not oppose the document being
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
24 please be marked for identification.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P 615, marked
1 for identification.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Would that be a convenient
3 time, Mr. Harmon.
4 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at quarter to
6 6.00. Court adjourned.
7 --- Recess taken at 5.13 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
10 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour. One housekeeping matter, if
11 -- I indicated to the Chamber that I would get a redacted copy of the
12 information report, and I've done that. It is now uploaded into the
13 system, and if I could now have that given an exhibit number. This was
14 the information report that the witness testified about. I read two
15 small portions of paragraphs.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are done with 65 ter 9110? We have given
17 that --
18 MR. HARMON: Yes, we gave that 615 MFI.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right. Now, that's a new document. Can we
20 have a look at it then, this document that you want to tender.
21 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. If it could be called up.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the 65 ter number?
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, this does not have a 65 ter number.
24 This is the document that had not been uploaded into the system, and then
25 I was dealing only with the hard copy.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon.
2 MR. HARMON: I'm at Your Honours's disposal on this.
3 Your Honours indicated that once we had this uploaded, it would
4 appropriate to give it a number. I have redacted it, I have it uploaded,
5 but I have no 65 ter number because I had to give a 65 ter number -- I
6 didn't do that in the intervening few minutes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. We are just waiting for the document
8 to come up so that we can see it, and ...
9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
10 THE COURT: I guess some kind of identification needs to come
11 from your side.
12 MR. HARMON: Yes. Okay, then I can give an ERN number,
13 Your Honour, if that's sufficient. It is -- Ms. Javier is signalling me
14 so she is the master of this situation.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I guess our Madam Registrar will understand
16 the communication from her.
17 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if we could return to this document.
18 I'm told now that the uploading has not been successful so if we could
19 return to this at the end of the Prosecution's evidence, I'd appreciate
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are in your hands.
22 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
23 If I can then turn to the next document. This is 65 ter
24 number 9108.
25 Q. Mr. Gunj, this is a document that is in the upper left-hand
1 corner. We can see it bears a number 1310-9. It has been issued by the
2 1st Army Command and deals with fuel replenishment, and as can be seen in
3 the first paragraph, this is based on a decision of the VJ Chief of the
4 General Staff, confidential number 1015-1 of 1 July 1997. My first
5 question is, have you seen this document prior to coming into court
7 A. Yes, yesterday I saw it during the proofing session.
8 Q. Are you able to identify --
9 MR. HARMON: If you could go up on the Bosnian version of it,
10 B/C/S version, so we can see the signature and the stamp, please.
11 Q. Are you able to identify the signature on the right-hand bottom
12 of this document?
13 A. I know Mr. Svetozar Marjanovic, I know the general, but I have
14 never seen his signature so I can't identify it.
15 Q. On the left-hand side of the document next to the signature block
16 of Svetozar Marjanovic, there is a military post number. What is that
17 text that is underneath the military post number? What does that
19 A. That's the military post number and the seal of military post
20 showing when the document was received by the command of the 1st Army,
21 the 8th of July, 1997.
22 Q. The military post number that's identified there, number 2082-31,
23 was that your military post?
24 A. Correct, yes. Yes, it was.
25 Q. Now, if we turn to paragraph 1 of this order. It's on the first
1 page of the English. Paragraph 1 identifies fuel provision at the
2 Topcider barracks. Is that location the same location where the hotel
3 Topcider was located?
4 A. Correct, yes, it was.
5 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could this document be marked for
6 identification only.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
8 an exhibit number and marked for identification.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P 616, marked
10 for identification.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MR. HARMON: Now, if we could turn to the next exhibit, which is
13 65 ter number 9109.
14 Q. Have you seen this document before coming into court, Mr. Gunj?
15 A. Yes, yesterday during the proofing session.
16 Q. Okay. Now, this is a document that is from the 1st Army Command,
17 and it bears the number in the upper left corner 25/1310-12, and it is
18 dated the 27th of August, 1997, and it is -- it says, "issuing moveables
19 amended order." And we can see below the text to "1st Army
20 headquarters." This references the order we just looked at, 1310-9, and
21 we can see underneath the order it says:
22 "Amended the order of the 1st Army Command confidential number
23 1310-9 of 3 July, 1997
24 Item number 8 says:
25 "Procuring, issuing, and justification for the issue of
1 moveables, food articles, and other expendables to be carried out by the
2 1st Army headquarters administration by issuing them from the logistics
3 base and units, and their procurement on the market."
4 Now, Mr. Gunj, do you recognise the signature at the bottom of
5 this document?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. And whose signature is that?
8 A. That is the signature of General Trajkovic.
9 Q. And if we look at the stamp on the left hand bottom of the B/C/S
10 version, can you tell the Chamber what that stamp represents?
11 A. That stamp represents the same thing as in the previous document,
12 my military post, the date, the number under which it was entered in the
13 log, and when it was received in the military post.
14 Q. So this was a document that was received by your military post?
15 A. Correct, yes.
16 Q. Okay. Now, this particular order amending the previous order we
17 looked at is based on what?
18 A. Could you repeat your question, please. I didn't understand it.
19 Q. Is this order that makes the amendment of the previous order
20 based on an order of a superior formation or command?
21 A. Well, above the word "order" one can see that it says that this
22 order is pursuant to an order coming from a higher level.
23 Q. What is that higher level?
24 A. The Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia as it
25 says in this document, based on the amendment to the decision.
1 Q. Okay. So that would be the order 50 -- decision 1015-3 of
2 25 August, 1997
3 A. Yes, yes, that's what it says here.
4 MR. HARMON: Okay. If we could have -- Your Honour, I would ask
5 that that be marked for identification, please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be marked for identification. It's
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P 617, marked
9 for identification.
10 MR. HARMON: If we could have 65 ter number 9097, please.
11 Actually, sorry, if we could have 65 ter number 9098, please. Thank you.
12 Q. Witness, this is -- in the previous order we saw that there was
13 an amendment based on an order issued on the 25th of August, 1997
14 1015-3. Can you look at this particular document that is it in front of
15 you in B/C/S, and do you see an order number on this particular document?
16 A. I see it, yes.
17 Q. And what is that order number?
18 A. What number are you referring to, the one in the text itself or
19 the one in the stamp up there?
20 Q. The one in the stamp in the upper left-hand corner?
21 A. It's confidential number 1015-3 of the 25th of August, 1997
22 Q. And do you recognise the signature at the bottom of the document?
23 A. I know, or rather, I know the general Momcilo Perisic, but I have
24 never had the opportunity of seeing his signature on official documents.
25 For this reason, I can't say that I recognise his signature.
1 Q. Mr. Gunj, this is a document that amends a previous decision
2 issued by the VJ Chief of the General Staff, that is decision 1015-1; is
3 that correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And how does -- in what particular does this document identify --
6 in what way does this amend the previous order issued by General Perisic?
7 THE COURT: The previous order issued by General Perisic?
8 MR. HARMON: Yes, 1015-1 of 1 July, 1997.
9 Q. In what way does the document in front of you amend
10 General Perisic's order of the 1st of July, numbered 1015-1?
11 A. I can't see it very well. Can we zoom in a little bit, please.
12 The only amendment I see here is that the command of the 1st Army will
13 report to the office on a monthly basis on the material issued and
15 Q. If you could go above that, you'll see an item number 3.
16 A. Procuring, issuing, and handing over of food stuffs and other
17 expendable material referring to this decision, is that what you were
18 referring to?
19 Q. Yes, sir. So is that the amendment to the previous order 1015-1
20 of the 1st of July in your --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this whole line of
23 questioning boils down to the reading of documents, and after that a
24 leading question is put to the witness. I don't think we can get any
25 facts out of this sort of testimony.
1 THE COURT: Mr. Harmon.
2 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, in that regard, I am directing the
3 witness's attention to certain portions of this document. Mr. Novak
4 Lukic is correct on that, and what I would like to do is request that
5 this document be marked for identification and then I will show the
6 witness the next document as well, and then I intend to ask the witness
7 about the collection of documents he has seen. So if this document,
8 Your Honour, I take my colleague's point on that, if I could have this
9 document marked for identification.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, any reply?
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I think we've gone too far with
12 marking documents for identification. The witness has only read
13 something, he doesn't even recognise Mr. Perisic's signature, so how can
14 we mark this document in this way? It's all boiling down to just reading
15 the document without any sort of analysis. I think we've strayed too far
16 from what we are supposed to be doing when tendering documents through a
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but, Mr. Lukic, is the marking for
19 identification not precisely to guard against that, so that if no further
20 evidence and facts ever extracted, then it is not admitted. I thought
21 your learned friend indicated earlier that there are five document that
22 he would like to tender through this witness, all of which have a
23 relationship. I'm not suggesting that that's how to establish a link
24 between the witness and those documents. But I am just saying that is
25 what he has said he wants to do, and when we raised the problem with the
1 first document of those five, the solution was to mark them for
2 identification. I'm not quite sure why you suddenly change now. You
3 can't say because you have gone too far. That is a grounds for changing,
4 can you? We have allowed it to go on, and now we can't change simply
5 because it's gone too far. At least he is still within the five
6 documents that he talked about.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I accept your suggestion,
8 Your Honour. And I agree that it be marked for identification.
9 Sometimes we may become too emotional when objecting, and we say things
10 we don't need to say as lawyers.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. May I ask that next time we
12 try to reflect just for one moment before we stand up to say something.
13 Then we'll admit this and mark it for identification.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P 618, marked
15 for identification.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. HARMON:
18 Q. Mr. Gunj, while we are on this particular document, this document
19 that is before you, you were a warrant officer -- you were a warrant
20 officer at the time in July of 1997; is that correct? Or were you a
21 senior sergeant in July of 1997 when you were the manager of the Rajac
23 A. Are you referring to the year 1997?
24 Q. Yes, sir.
25 A. I was then a staff sergeant.
1 Q. All right. And was it -- did you ever receive an order from the
2 Chief of General Staff while you were a staff sergeant in the VJ?
3 A. No, neither orally nor in writing. I received no order from the
4 Chief of General Staff then.
5 Q. What were the normal practices in terms of issuing orders? Was
6 there a general practice where a particular sequence of orders would be
8 A. Yes. The line of subordination was followed. The chain of
10 Q. Okay. And so tell the Judges what you mean by that.
11 A. I would receive an order from my immediate superior,
12 Colonel Jovanovic. Colonel Jovanovic would receive orders from the Chief
13 of Staff of the 1st Army, or the commander of the 1st Army because he was
14 subordinated to them, and the commander of the 1st Army would receive
15 orders from the Chief of General Staff. That, in my opinion, was the
16 chain of command that had to be followed.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Gunj, I want to return back to the document that's in
18 front of you, P 618 that has been marked for identification. It makes a
19 reference to a decision 1015-1.
20 MR. HARMON: And if we could go to 65 ter number 9097, please.
21 Q. Witness, we can see from this particular document that it is
22 dated the 1st of July, 1997. It's a decision of General Perisic, and I'd
23 like to direct your attention to paragraph 1 of the document which reads:
24 "Issue the fuel for the replenishment of the Army of
25 Republika Srpska vehicles on the basis of verbal authorisation from the
1 Yugoslav Army Chief of General Staff at petrol stations in Belgrade
2 follows ..." It then identifies those stations.
3 My first question is, what is a verbal authorisation in the
4 context of the VJ? What does that mean?
5 A. This means a subordinate may receive an oral order or approval
6 from his superior in order to carry out an activity, and the superior
7 will assess how far he is authorised to issue such an oral order.
8 Q. Now, Witness, we have seen a series of documents that relate --
9 that start in the beginning of July, and conclude on the 27th of August,
10 that relate to both the provision of petrol and the provision of food and
11 moveables and other expendables.
12 Can you -- having examined these documents, can you give us your
13 view of these particular documents and what your impressions and what
14 your conclusions are based on looking at these documents?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness is being
17 asked to speculate now. In his replies he did comment on all these
18 documents; now he is being asked to give his impression. I don't think
19 the question can be put in that way.
20 MR. HARMON: I'll reframe the question, Your Honour. I'll be
21 glad to reframe the question.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Please rephrase.
23 MR. HARMON:
24 Q. Mr. Gunj, do you draw any conclusions from the five documents
25 that you have examined this afternoon?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, the question has been
3 rephrased, but the witness is still being asked to speculate.
4 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if I can respond. The witness is a
5 career military officer who testified in the context of a series of
6 events that took place from the beginning of July that relate to people
7 in the RS who stayed on his facility, that relates to the provision of
8 food and other assistance. He is aware of the manner in which orders are
9 given in the VJ. He was informed by his superiors that such provisions
10 would be made available. He identified the normal procedures through
11 which procurements of items was made in the course of events. And in my
12 submission, Your Honour, he is in a position based on what he observed
13 and what he heard, what he saw, and what he knows about orders in the VJ
14 to give Your Honours his views on these particular documents. And I
15 think, Your Honour, it's not speculation. I think he has a firm basis in
16 which to make conclusions and draw conclusions after considering the
17 complete context of the events and these particular documents.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any reply?
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Briefly, Your Honour, Mr. Gunj is
20 here as a fact witness and he has testified as to his knowledge of facts.
21 With all due respect, Mr. Harmon is now asking the witness to interpret
22 something that he, himself, said he has no direct knowledge of. The
23 witness has come to testify to certain facts. And the documents put to
24 him by Mr. Harmon are documents which Mr. Harmon was to have tendered
25 through a different witness. I don't want to comment on that any
1 further, but this witness is now being asked to comment on these
2 documents, whereas he is here as a fact witness.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon, when you ask that these documents be
4 marked for identification, I thought you were going to later call a
5 witness who has a relationship with the documents and can testify to them
6 positively, like an addressee or something like that. You know, I notice
7 that even the documents that relate to the supply of food are not
8 addressed to this gentleman.
9 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just finish.
11 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: For me, I am afraid I share the view of the
13 Defence on this point. And if you insist on these documents being
14 admitted, then I'll are to confer with my colleagues. But based on the
15 testimony thus far, I have still not seen the relationship between this
16 witness and the documents.
17 Now, I understand that he has testified about facts that happened
18 during July 1997 at his facility, but he has not received any of these
19 documents or he hasn't told us. So I don't see how if he wasn't the
20 author, he didn't receive them, he hadn't seen them before he came to
21 court, he saw them during proofing yesterday, how it can be said that
22 there is a relationship between him and the documents, simply because he
23 has testified about other facts that took place during the same period?
24 That's the only link you are putting forward?
25 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if I may make a submission to
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
3 MR. HARMON: There is a link to these documents. The document
4 that amends -- that went to the 1st Army amending the previous document
5 that said provide fuel, there was a document that amended that previous
6 order that said, also include food articles, moveables, and other
7 expenditures. That's 617 MFI
8 unit. By his superior command. That, Your Honour, Mr. Gunj was the
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: He hasn't told us that.
11 MR. HARMON: Well, he told Your Honours that he had gone to his
12 Superior Command. He had authority to provide food, that food was
13 provided on an increasingly more frequent basis. The man who -- the
14 gentleman who was his superior officer was Mr. Jovanovic --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: But if I may just remind you.
16 MR. HARMON: Yes.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: According to his testimony, when he implemented
18 those orders he had received oral orders, not written orders.
19 MR. HARMON: I couldn't agree with you more, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: So he has not shown any link between himself and
21 the written orders. He has told us, yes, he supplied food, but based on
22 oral orders.
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if I may respond quite respectfully,
24 Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, sure.
1 MR. HARMON: The then sergeant Gunj wasn't in a position, he
2 testified --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting, but I
5 don't think that this is a subject that we should be discussing in the
6 presence of the witness. If any other questions might be put to the
7 witness, if Mr. Harmon wants to provide us with an explanation, but
8 nevertheless still has questions to put to the witness, I don't think
9 it's fair to the witness to proceed in this way.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe the best thing is to consult my colleagues,
11 and we'll just rule. Do you still want to make submissions? In that
12 event then the witness should stand out.
13 MR. HARMON: Well, I should conclude with my submissions,
14 Your Honour --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very well. Mr. Gunj, I'm sorry to do this. But
16 this is what happens sometimes during trials. Could you please stand
17 outside for a couple of minutes. We'll call you back.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
20 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, this witness was a staff sergeant or a
21 sergeant. He was instructed -- or he informed his superior officer who
22 was Jovanovic that Mladic was present at the facility that was under the
23 control of the VJ. He told him about the provision of food. He would go
24 back to Jovanovic to get food and provisions from the VJ to support
25 General Mladic and his entourage. The orders that came down from the
1 Superior Command went to sergeant Gunj's superiors. Sergeant Gunj was
2 the implementer of what was -- had been ordered --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: We don't have that evidence, Mr. Harmon. You
4 haven't ask this witness that question. You haven't asked him whether he
5 supplied any replenishments based on any of these written documents. He
6 has testified that he did so based on oral instructions.
7 MR. HARMON: They, quite obviously, Your Honour, will be gaps,
8 but I think the Court is in a position to infer based on the evidence
9 that these -- and I think it goes to weight. That, in the structured
10 army like the VJ where there is a hierarchical command system, that all
11 these orders from the Chief of General Staff would not going to
12 Sergeant Gunj. And given the fact, Your Honour, that the presence of
13 General Mladic on a VJ base was a highly sensitive matter, and sergeant
14 Gunj has testified that he was instructed there should be no traces
15 identifying that visit. It seems to me, and it's my submission, that
16 Sergeant Gunj would not be the recipient of such orders. His superiors
17 would be the recipient of such orders, and in the hierarchical command
18 system, Sergeant Gunj who was in charge of that facility would be the
19 person who would implement that, whether it was --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And then would the appropriate witness not be
21 sergeant Gunj's superior who will say, I, Sergeant Gunj's superior,
22 received these written instructions and because the presence of Mladic in
23 the area was a high secret, based on these written orders, I gave verbal
24 orders to Gunj to implement these orders? Don't you see the missing link
1 MR. HARMON: Of course I do, Your Honour. It's obvious. But --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now you want us to jump --
3 MR. HARMON: I want, Your Honours, I'm suggesting Your Honours
4 can make an inference from the evidence that the orders are before
5 Your Honours, the five orders --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you --
7 MR. HARMON: Applied to the situation that was --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you do know, Mr. Harmon, that the inference to
9 be made must be the only reasonable inference. Cannot be one of many.
10 MR. HARMON: Well, it would my submission, Your Honour, that it
11 is the only reasonable inference that can be drawn from these orders.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you suggesting it's not a reasonable inference
13 to infer that Gunj implemented the oral orders, and apart from those oral
14 orders and in addition to them, further written orders came to other
15 people? Isn't that -- wouldn't be that an equally reasonable inference
16 to draw?
17 MR. HARMON: It's my -- well, Your Honours could draw any
18 inferences --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: But is it not reasonable?
20 MR. HARMON: It is an inference that can be drawn, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it not reasonable?
22 MR. HARMON: It's a reasonable inference that can be drawn,
23 Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: So there are more than one reasonable inferences
25 that can be drawn?
1 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, obviously, weighing this evidence
2 Your Honours have to give this evidence whatever weight Your Honours feel
3 appropriate. What I've asked for -- we are at this point because I've
4 asked this witness, who is a professional soldier, who was involved in
5 the process of providing food and supplies to General Mladic, to give us
6 his sense of these documents. Now, that's evidence that, in addition to
7 any other witness who comes in, the Court, I think, should consider.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And shouldn't we await for that other witness to
9 come in before we remove the MFI
10 MR. HARMON: I'm not asking to remove the MFI, Your Honour. What
11 I was asking for was this witness to give us his sense of these
12 documents. Now, it may be, Your Honours, it may be, Your Honours, in
13 your deliberations you conclude that these five documents, based on the
14 -- whatever answer he gives, the MFI
15 your position that you want to hear from somebody else who will also give
16 you some input into these documents.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then I'm very sorry then if you are not
18 asking for the MFI
19 Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. HARMON: Okay.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, you rose on the point that the witness
22 is now being asked to speculate. Whatever characterization the Chamber
23 might give to that answer to the extent that these documents are still
24 MFIed, do you have any objection?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Without going into whether the MFI
1 marking will be removed at the request of the Prosecution, regardless of
2 that, I object to this question which tries to get the witness to provide
3 expert testimony. But is he a factual witness; he doesn't know anything
4 about the documents. So I object to Mr. Harmon's questions in which he
5 tries to obtain conclusions from the documents, but in any event, I do
6 object to having these documents admitted into evidence.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry we took long. By majority, Judge David
9 descending, the objection is upheld.
10 MR. HARMON: In that case, Your Honour, I have no additional
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: In that case we can call the witness back.
13 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. I have --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do we do with 9097?
15 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I would ask that it also receive an MFI
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: 9097 -- [Microphone not activated]
18 MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. May it please be given a number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P 619, marked
21 for identification.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, before I conclude, I have the previous
24 document that I redacted portion of the information report that we
25 discussed with Mr. Gunj's evidence. It has a document identification
1 number 0646-6762. If that could be brought up on the screen,
2 Your Honour. I have shown it to my colleagues from the Defence, and they
3 have no objection in its present form to its admission. You will see if
4 Your Honours go to the next page, you'll see those are the extracts of
5 the information report that I read.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MR. HARMON: You will see at the bottom of each page there is
8 initials of the witness, and at the last page there is a signature and a
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: No objection, Your Honour, to tender it to the
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
14 an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P 620.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. HARMON: Mr. Gunj, I have finished my examination. I have no
18 additional questions. Mr. Lukic from the Defence will now ask you
19 questions. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
22 Q. Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Mr. Gunj, good day.
24 A. Good day.
25 Q. My name is Novak Lukic. On behalf of Mr. Perisic's Defence team,
1 I will now put some questions to you, but before I start, I'd like to
2 warn you that since we both speak the same language, pause briefly after
3 I put my question to you and then answer the questions so that the
4 interpreters can follow us. You can also follow the cursor, rather the
5 transcript to know when to answer.
6 A. Very well.
7 Q. I'll ask you a few question that don't directly relate to what
8 you have testified about, but it's in the interest of the Defence to
9 obtain an answer. It's important for our case. You were born in
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. You are a professional soldier, you joined the army in 1991 when
13 you were in Rijeka
14 A. I was to enter as an officer, as a professional officer, but I
15 was [indiscernible] to the army there, but there was a problem when I
16 joined the unit. The procedure was completed, and from 2002 to 2005 I
17 was a professional soldier.
18 Q. From 1992 to 1995 I assume, isn't that right?
19 A. Yes, from 1992 to 1995.
20 Q. There's just one question I'd like to put to you about this in
21 the course of the war up until 1995, you were in Army of Yugoslavia;
22 isn't that correct?
23 A. What do you mean during the war? When I came from the unit in
24 the Republic of Croatia
25 Q. Yes, you were in the JNA in Croatia
1 Army of Yugoslavia
2 of Yugoslavia
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. And you would agree with me that no one caused you any problems
6 because you didn't go to fight in Croatia in the Serbian Army of Krajina,
7 you stayed here all the time; isn't that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm so sorry.
11 At page 78, line 12 and 13, it is supposed to be 1992 to 1995 or
12 1992 to 2005? I thought in 1997 he was still a professional soldier,
13 that's why he was running the Rajac and all these other places.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct. Yes. I wanted to
15 correct that error because he said in line 10, 2002 to 2005, that was a
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: So the correct answer is 1992 to 2005 [sic].
19 Thank you, proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. In fact you are still junior officer in the Army of Yugoslavia;
22 isn't that correct?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Non-commissioned officer, interpreter's
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I'd now I'll like to put another question to you when answering
3 Mr. Harmon's questions about the facilities, you mentioned the hotel in
4 Topcider, and you said that there were some officers who is lived there
5 with their families. Is it correct to say that the officers and their
6 families lived there but they had come from the area of the former
8 A. Yes, some of the people who were there fell under that category.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 The Stragari facility that we have been discussing, when did you
11 first go to the Stragari facility? Well, first I'll ask you, did you go
12 to the facility in Stragari?
13 A. Yes, of course I did.
14 Q. I'm interested in the period you have testified about. In 1997
15 and 1998 did you personally go to Stragari?
16 A. No. Before assuming my duties of the manager of the hotel in
17 Rajac, I was assisting at a ceremony organised by the army command, and
18 it was because of the day of the army.
19 Q. That's spring 1997; isn't it correct?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. In 1997 from the summer of 1997 when you became the manager of
22 the facility in Rajac and in 1998, this is the period I'm interested in,
23 during that period you didn't go to Stragari?
24 A. In the course of 1998, no, I didn't go to Stragari.
25 Q. So you don't have any direct information on whether Mr. Mladic
1 was there at the time, but as you have said, this is something that you
2 heard from others?
3 A. Correct. What I said is what I heard, that I wasn't personally
4 present when these activities were ongoing.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 I have to ask you this. Mr. Harmon asked you a question about
7 this entire event, towards the end of June you were appointed as the
8 manager of the Rajac facility. That was in 1997; have I understood you
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. And what you told Mr. Harmon about Mr. Mladic's stay in Rajac in
12 the facility, well, according to you, this took place in July during 30
13 days in July 1997?
14 A. Yes, at the beginning of July. That's when these activities
16 Q. I'm asking you about this because I received your personal file,
17 we'll call it up on the screen, but perhaps there are a few things you
18 could explain to see whether there are any problems, but you were
19 appointed as the manager of the facility.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the following
21 document up on the screen. 1D 005927. Page 4. Unfortunately,
22 Your Honours, I only have the B/C/S version of this document that we
23 received in one of the most recent batches of documents provided by the
24 Prosecution. Could we just scroll down a little bit, and then I will
25 read out, very slowly, what it says in the last column in the Serbian
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is this, you say this is his personal file.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Personal file or personnel file?
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No. We can also have the first page
6 on the screen, it's his personal file. We can have a look at the first
8 Q. All non-commissioned officers had such a document, and this is
9 your document. This is your personal file; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at page 4 now,
12 please. And let's have a look at the last part. Could we enlarge that
13 or zoom in.
14 Q. The first column has to do with the situation of the active
15 member of the military, I'll read out what it says. It says, "manager of
16 the military hotels Topcider and Rajac." And then it says HQ
17 administration, second column which concerns the unit and the
18 institution, it says 1A. I assume that means the 1st Army Belgrade
19 garrison. The third column it says, and this concerns the establishment
20 rank, it says "SVLK." That's staff sergeant?
21 A. That's a staff sergeant.
22 Q. 22401 PG-18/18. I don't know whether you can help us to
23 understand what this stands for?
24 A. It's the rank grouping, the salary grouping.
25 Q. And then it says period, 1st of August, 1997, up until the 28th
1 of August, 2002. And in the last column it says the decree regulating
2 the situation 1A, 12-48, date, the 19th of May, 1997. Have I read this
3 out correctly?
4 A. Yes, you have.
5 Q. My question is, did you arrive on the 1st of August to the Rajac
6 hotel when you were appointed its manager? Or do you abide by your
7 statement that this was in July?
8 A. Well, there are two pieces of information which are incorrect
9 here. One is my rank. I was a staff sergeant at the time. I became a
10 staff sergeant 1st class when I was promoted during the bombing. So
11 that's the first item that's incorrect. And, secondly, it's not true I
12 was appointed on the 1st of August, 1997. I was in fact appointed on the
13 1 st of June, 1997. So those two pieces of information are wrong.
14 Q. So you think that information here is not correct?
15 A. I'm sure of it.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to make sure that those of us who don't read
17 B/C/S have it clear, can it be placed on the record what those dates are
18 for, 1st of August 1997 to 28 February -- June, 2002. And is this the
19 time when he was employed in that capacity as manager of these two
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like confirmation from the witness
23 himself. Do those columns, sir, are they supposed to signify the date
24 when you assumed your duties as the manager of those two hotels until the
25 day when you finished doing so?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. It should be
2 the day when I took over, that's the 1st of June, early June. And the
3 day when I ended my duty there, that can't be correct because I was still
4 doing that job then.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: We understand that. You say the entry is wrong.
6 But we just wanted to know what those two columns designate so we know
7 what we are talking about. You may continue, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I suggest
9 that pages 1 and 4 be MFIed until we get the official translation of this
10 page. Then when you have all the information from the form, it will be
11 complete, and I think you will come across such documents often in the
12 course of the trial. So for now, I propose that it be MFIed until we get
13 official translation of this document, or if Your Honours feel it's
14 understandable based on the transcript, it need not be translated.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see Mr. Harmon gives a look and doesn't do
16 anything. The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be
17 marked for identification.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D 55, marked
19 for identification.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right.
22 Q. Mr. Gunj, you said when asked by Prosecutor Harmon that you knew
23 from the media at the time that Mr. Mladic was indicted before The Hague
24 Tribunal. That this information was already been broadcast in the media;
25 is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you had this information from the media not along your
3 professional line?
4 A. No, nobody informed me officially or gave me any guide-lines in
5 that respect. I knew that only from the sources I mentioned.
6 Q. Just please slow down a little bit.
7 Do you agree with me that at the time in the media it was said
8 that our state leadership did not want to extradite anyone to The Hague
9 Tribunal because there was no law on cooperation with the Tribunal and
10 this was the policy of the state leadership and that this was often
11 explained in the media.
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. Is it also correct that at that time, although everybody knew
14 that General Mladic had been indicted before the ICTY, he was often seen
15 in public and that this was published in the media?
16 A. Are you referring to the period before he came to the hotel?
17 Q. Both before and after, did you hear that he was seen in public?
18 A. Yes, did I hear that, and I did see that in the media, but nobody
19 ever gave me any official information about this.
20 Q. I'm only asking you about what you saw in the media.
21 A. Yes, I did see it in the media.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.
23 Q. I'd like to put a question to you concerning your testimony of
24 today, and it's also mentioned in the statement you made before
25 Judge Plazinic. And I think that this is document 1D 005910.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that Exhibit P 614?
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. Let me just see
3 what page I need. I do apologise. I think I would like first to see the
4 previous statement, 1D 005924, page 2 in B/C/S.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't want us to see the English version?
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am afraid we don't have this
7 document in English, Your Honours. I received this document from
8 Mr. Harmon, but it's not in the 65 ter list of documents. I will read a
9 sentence to the witness, but I don't intend to tender this statement.
10 Can we scroll up a little bit, please.
11 Q. In this passage you describe your first meeting with Mr. Mladic,
12 and you say something here which I didn't hear today --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
14 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, I don't have a sufficient identification
15 on what document this is that we are referring to. Is it -- is there a
16 date on this document?
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, this was before the
18 investigating judge of the second municipal court in Belgrade on the 24th
19 of March, 2006.
20 MR. HARMON: Okay. Your Honour, this has been provided to the
21 Defence in English as well, so there is an English version of this
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to come to your colleague's rescue
24 now that he says he doesn't have an English version
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 MR. HARMON: I have a -- let me -- if I could have the usher --
2 the assistance of the usher, the usher could give this to --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Has it been uploaded on the system; do you know?
4 MR. HARMON: To my knowledge, it hasn't, Your Honour. This was
5 not going to be an exhibit offered by the Prosecution. So we gave a copy
6 of this in English and B/C/S to the Defence. I can give a copy of the
7 English version to Mr. Lukic, and if he wants to reference a particular
8 passage, it might assist him and assist me at least in the courtroom.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
11 It's my mistake exclusively.
12 Q. I just wanted to read a sentence to the witness. But, Witness,
13 after what you said that somebody rang you up on the telephone while you
14 were still in Belgrade
15 Chief of General Staff, my question is from that moment onwards, did
16 anyone ever contact you in the same way, ring you up, whether in Rajac or
17 in Topcider saying they were calling from the office of the Chief of
18 General Staff the Army of Yugoslavia
19 A. You mean me personally?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. No.
22 Q. In this statement, when you say the following:
23 "When I arrived at the facility I saw people in civilian
24 clothes with weapons and later on it turned out that these were the
25 security guards of Ratko Mladic. A man approached me. I went with him
1 to the entrance of the hotel. And at the entrance I met Ratko Mladic.
2 It was clear it to me what this was about. After this I asked
3 Ratko Mladic's security guards for an explanation, and they said that I
4 would learn everything from the General Staff." And so on and so forth.
5 That's what it says in this record. That's why I asked you
6 whether someone spoke to you like this and whether you were told that
7 someone from the General Staff would call you, but you say that nobody
8 called you.
9 A. It's true they told me someone would ring me up, but no one did.
10 Apart from that first instance which I have described when somebody said
11 they were calling from the office but didn't introduce themselves.
12 That's correct.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't wish to tender this
14 document. And, Your Honours, we have two minutes left, but I think that
15 it's a convenient moment now to break for the day.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
17 Sir, we are not --
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Witness, in page 20, line 14, you were asked by
20 the Prosecution: "Was that a standard operating procedure?" And you
21 answer: "You mean under normal circumstances would that be the
23 "No, no. It was not standard procedure." You answer: "The
24 standard procedure is quite different."
25 Then question in line 19: "Can you describe the standard
1 procedure, please."
2 And you answer:
3 "The standard procedure as regards the facility would be a
4 requisition form for seven days for all the articles needed ..." and you
5 describe all of this.
6 My question to you is this: Do you recall in your experience in
7 the administration any other incident or circumstances in addition to the
8 one of the stay of General Mladic in which all the written procedures
9 were not required? Do you recall in your experience, I repeat, other
10 incidents or circumstances in addition to the one you have just
11 described, in which written procedures were not followed, which is to
12 say, the requisition forms and so on? Please elaborate, if you can.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never came across such a
14 situation. This was the only time. In every other situation the
15 standard procedure was followed.
16 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, we have not finished with your testimony.
18 You will have to come back tomorrow again at quarter past 2.00 in the
19 afternoon in the same courtroom. You are warned not to discuss this case
20 with anybody for as long as you are still giving evidence, so overnight
21 you can chat about the weather but not about the case to anybody
22 including counsel for the Prosecution. Okay. You may --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may stand down, we'll see you tomorrow
25 afternoon at quarter past 2.00 in the same courtroom. Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The court stands adjourned
4 to tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon. Court adjourned.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Tuesday the 3rd day of March
7 2009, at 2.15 p.m.