1 Wednesday, 4 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 courtroom. Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances for
12 the day, starting with the Prosecution.
13 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. Salvatore Cannata, April
14 Carter, Carmela Javier, and Dan Saxon for the Prosecution.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And for the Defence, Mr.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. Good day to
18 everyone. Mr. Perisic is represented by Milos Androvic; Tina Drolec; our
19 case manager, Daniela Tasic; Gregor Guy-Smith; and Novak Lukic as Defence
21 THE COURT: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
22 Good morning, Mr. Mihajlovic.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to remind you, sir, that you made a
25 declaration at the beginning of your testimony yesterday to tell the
1 truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth. You are still
2 bound by that declaration. Thank you so much.
3 Mr. Saxon, yesterday when we adjourned we were in private
4 session. I don't know whether you still want to continue in private
5 session. We are now in open session.
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, for the time being we can remain in open
7 session, please.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are in open session. We'll stay there.
9 MR. SAXON: I'm wondering, with the Registrar's assistance, could
10 we please see 65 ter 1279. And perhaps if we could initially make the
11 top half of the B/C/S version a bit bigger for the convenience of General
13 WITNESS: MLADEN MIHAJLOVIC [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examination by Mr. Saxon: [Continued]
16 Q. Good morning, General.
17 A. Good morning. Good morning.
18 Q. General, if you take a look at the document that is on the screen
19 in front of you, you'll see that it is from the -- or addressed to the
21 confidential number 19/14-471. It's dated 24 October 1993.
22 And perhaps you could help us just for clarity, the heading on
23 the upper left-hand corner, Drina Corps Command, is that the addressee of
24 the document, or is that where the document is coming from?
25 A. I think this is the body that the document is coming from.
1 Q. And it is said, first of all, the document is to be delivered to
2 a number of brigades; do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And it refers to a telegram in the second paragraph dated the
5 23rd of October, 1993, from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika
6 Srpska containing an order of the commander of the Army of Republika
7 Srpska. Do you see that in the second paragraph?
8 A. I do.
9 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry. I'm not getting any English
11 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said, I do.
12 MR. SAXON: That's why.
13 Q. And the large next paragraph describes how during the war,
14 besides regular supplying of units and commands of the VRS based on the
15 scheme of logistic support, there have appeared parallel chains of
16 supplying of units in which besides authorised persons, various
17 suppliers, donators, et cetera, have gotten involved. Are you with me?
18 A. I'm following what you've been reading out.
19 Q. And then it continues:
20 "Such a way of supplying of commands and units have caused the
21 uncontrolled, unplanned, and unappropriated outflow of all kinds of
22 materiel, technical and other supplies from the VJ, even into the hands
23 of the enemy, while at the same time it has caused enormous enrichment of
24 individuals, justifiably causing deep dissatisfaction among the members
25 of the VJ and the VRS."
1 And then below that, we see that there is an order. It says:
2 "Based on the jointly taken position and the agreement of the
3 Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia and the commander of
4 the General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska ..." it says, "I order
5 ..." Do you see that?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. And we see at the bottom, the order is coming from General Ratko
8 Mladic, the commander. And if we look at subparagraph 1 of the order, it
10 "In the future, the command of the units and organs will
11 consolidate and submit to the General Staff of the VRS logistics sector
12 all requests for the excerption of any kind of materiel supplies from the
14 And then subparagraph 2, the order directs that:
15 "Based on the requests that the command and units receive, the
16 logistics sector of the GS VRS" - I believe that's' General Staff - "will
17 carry out compilation of all the requests in accordance to branches and
18 services three times a month, send requests to them for a signature, and
19 then forward them to the Chief of the General Staff of the Army of
21 Are you following me?
22 A. I'm following it.
23 Q. Then it says:
24 "Upon the approval of submitted requests obtained by the Chief of
25 the General Staff of the VJ, the logistics sector of the General Staff of
1 the VJ, through its logistics bases, will organise excerption and
2 distribution of approved items to units and organs, which is to be
3 followed by proper materiel-bookkeeping documentation."
4 That's subparagraph 3. And it says:
5 "Neither one request will be considered or approved" -
6 subparagraph 4 - "without my personal signature, the Chief of the General
7 Staff of the VJ and his subordinated command."
8 Are you following me?
9 A. I am.
10 Q. And finally, subparagraph 5:
11 "In the future, none of the commands and organs of the VJ will be
12 in charge of approving or issuing any kind of materiel supplies from the
13 VJ army fund without the approval and signature of the Chief of the
14 General Staff of the VJ."
15 My question at this moment is, up to this point from what we've
16 read, this order, the procedure outlined in this order from General
17 Mladic, does it accord with the procedure that you were familiar with
18 when you were addressing these kinds of requests for assistance from the
20 A. I'm completely unfamiliar with the organisational structure of
21 the VRS. I wasn't there, and I'm not familiar with the contents and the
22 problems with this document. But what you are asking me about has to do
23 with their internal organisation that, the procedure followed when
24 obtaining requests, when receiving requests for supplies. This was
25 probably a matter of an agreement between two states, two armies, but I'm
1 not familiar with this.
2 Q. If we could leave this document, then, for a moment.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you mean "leave"?
4 MR. SAXON: I'm not going to seek to tender this document at this
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 Pages 3935-3944 redacted.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P629 marked
2 for identification.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like to
5 correct the transcript. When the answer was provided by the witness on
6 page 15, the transcript, line 5, says: "Not every unit can contact the
7 Chief of the General Staff directly." Whereas the witness says, Even in
8 ours -- even in our staff, so the witness was making a distinction. He
9 said not a single unit could contact the General Staff directly, not even
10 our one. That's what the witness said, and it's not contained in the
11 transcript. I think it's important. We can listen to the recording if
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: What I see at line 5 is that:
14 "Not every unit can contacts the Chief of the General Staff
15 directly. This is the rule that has to be followed. This is the chain
16 of command that has to be respected, and all armies throughout the world
17 respect these rules."
18 Is that what you're talking about?
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, after this sentence -- yes,
20 that's correct. After the word "... the General Staff directly ..." he
21 added: Even our one, even our staff. And that isn't in the transcript.
22 We could clear this up with the witness, if necessary.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you confirm that, Mr. Mihajlovic?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did say. However, one word
25 was omitted. I said, and I repeat, that no unit can contact directly the
1 Chief of the General Staff, and that was also true of our army, of our
2 General Staff, and of course that nobody from another army can contact
3 our Chief of Staff. That would be unheard of. So this is a bit
4 lengthier explanation of what I said.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when you say nobody, you mean nobody in a
6 lower rank unit, but the chief of the VRS can contact the General Staff
7 of the VJ, can't it? That's the arrangement as we understand it? Thank
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Thank you for the
11 clarification, Mr. Lukic.
12 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
13 MR. SAXON:
14 Q. General Mihajlovic, during 1994 and 1995, can you recall, was
15 there ever an occasion when the VRS requested that the VJ provide it with
17 A. Yes, there were several such requests.
18 Q. And can you recall if you ever recommended that these requests
19 for mines be approved?
20 A. Yes. Every request was taken under advisement, and in keeping
21 with the possibilities of our army, as I said yesterday, what happened
22 most often was that those requests were corrected. The quantities were
23 reduced, as I told you yesterday.
24 Q. Can you recall approximately how many mines the VJ provided to
25 the VRS during 1994 and 1995?
1 A. I cannot provide you with correct data. I don't have any records
2 on me. The records did exist in the logistics sector. However, the
3 total number of all kinds of mines as far as I can remember was about
4 100.000, and I'm talking about anti-tank mines, anti-personnel mines.
5 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, if I could ask Madam Registrar how much
6 time I have taken up until now, if that's possible.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, are you able to help? 2 hours,
8 43 minutes.
9 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Can we see document 65 ter 7901, please.
11 Q. General, this is a document from the General Staff of the VJ. We
12 see below that the word "sector," and then some abbreviations. Can you
13 read that line to us, please, or do you know what those abbreviations
14 stand for?
15 A. Sector for air force and anti-aircraft defence, the aviation
17 Q. Thank you. And the document is dated the 4th of August, 1995.
18 And then we see below that "to be delivered to ..." and several lines
19 there with some abbreviations. Can you tell us what -- the first line
20 begins with the number 608. Can you tell what that line says, what the
21 abbreviations mean?
22 A. This is 608th logistics base of the General Staff of the Army of
24 Q. And below that, the next line?
25 A. The command of air force and anti-aircraft defence. Further on,
1 General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska for information, and the
2 last line is cabinet of the chief of General Staff of the Army of
3 Yugoslavia for information.
4 Q. And reading below that says: "On the basis of a request from the
5 VRS Main Staff" - Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska" - "dated
6 the previous day" - 3rd of August, 1995 - "we agree that the following
7 ..." and then there's another abbreviation. Can you tell us what that
8 abbreviation means?
9 A. I don't know what it means. This has to do with aviation.
10 Q. Okay. And after that abbreviation, it says:
11 "Be seated for the needs of the GS VRS." Below that, there is a
12 list with four lines, also with abbreviations HN-42, HN-45, et cetera.
13 Can you tell us what those abbreviations mean?
14 A. No, I don't know what this is about, which equipment or materiel.
15 Q. Below that, it says that:
16 "The 608th logistics base of the General Staff of the VJ will
17 issue a ruling on the session of the mentioned materiel while the RV-PVO
18 command will regulate the transfer to representatives of the General
19 Staff" -- "Main Staff of the VRS."
20 General, what was the role or function of the 608th Logistics
21 Base of the General Staff of the VJ in this process, providing assistance
22 to the VRS?
23 A. The 608th Logistics Base was the executive organ of the army and
24 the ultimate organ that implemented all the previous requests; i.e.,
25 whatever we had agreed and ordered, they would put into force. They were
1 the executive organ.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document,
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
5 please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P630.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Just to say again, Mr. Saxon, I don't
8 mean to interfere in -- you know, the guide-lines do say, once you have
9 read through a document, particularly a short document like this, the
10 preference is that it not be tendered because then you're burdening the
11 record unnecessarily. You remember that? So if you do want to tender
12 it, don't read it. The witness can read.
13 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's something else if you are dealing with an
15 illiterate witness, but this witness is highly educated.
16 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. General, are you familiar with the term "combat readiness" as it
18 was used in the JNA and the VJ?
19 A. Yes, of course. Combat readiness applies to the readiness of the
20 troops for combat.
21 Q. Could you be a little bit more specific. What does the concept
22 entail or contain?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Didn't the witness tell us this yesterday from the
24 point of view of the engineering department where he works -- where he
1 MR. SAXON: Point taken, Your Honour. I will move on then.
2 Q. During the war between 1993 and 1995, were reports about the
3 combat readiness of the VJ prepared?
4 A. Reports about the combat readiness of the VJ were prepared every
5 year regularly, whereas the situation is monitored almost every day.
6 Reports are drafted once a year at the end of the year or the beginning
7 of next year for the previous year, and those reports cover all levels
8 from the lowest unit level to the overall combat readiness of the Army of
10 Q. And who would produce the final compilation of the combat
11 readiness report for the VJ at that time?
12 A. I believe that was -- that was within the jurisdiction of the
13 sector for operations.
14 Q. And were -- was the combat readiness of the VJ reviewed at other
15 times of the year in addition to this annual review at the end of each
17 A. Yes. Control is part of the activities of the army at all
18 levels. Superior Commands control the subordinated units, and at the
19 highest level there was also the so-called inspection of combat
20 readiness. That was the highest level of control which submitted reports
21 to the Chief of the General Staff about the situation in the units that
22 came under inspection.
23 Q. General, why would it be necessary during the war years, 1993 to
24 1995, for the combat readiness of the VJ to be reviewed more than once a
1 A. Well, that was an activity that had been done before any wars
2 started, in peacetime. It's just part of the process of work in the
3 army, and especially in the times of war around our borders, there was an
4 additional reason for the state of combat readiness to be reviewed and
5 monitored more often.
6 MR. SAXON: Thank you, General. Your Honour, that concludes my
7 direct examination.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
9 Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I start my
11 cross-examination, I would like to point to a mistake in the transcript.
12 I did not want to interrupt my learned friend. I believe that it was
13 just an omission. Can we go back to page 4, line 23, where Mr. Saxon
14 quoted from the document that he eventually withdrew, so the document was
15 not filed. Just a quote remains, but when he quoted, I believe that he
16 made a mistake, but that mistake is relevant. This is the document,
17 65 ter 1279 that was not tendered for admission eventually. Mr. Saxon on
18 page 4, and I quote, read item 3 of the order. I'm going to read very
19 slowly in B/C/S, and you will see why this mistake appeared on line 24.
20 This order under item 3 says as follows:
21 "Upon the execution of the" --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have the text in front
23 of them, and it is impossible to translate without it.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You heard them.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters. I
1 would kindly ask for the document to be placed on the document, and I
2 will read slowly.
3 "When the requests were executed and approved by the Chief of the
4 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, the logistics sector of the
5 General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska will via logistics bases
6 organise the issuance and distribution of all the approved materiel and
7 equipment to the units and institutions, and this will be accompanied by
8 all the prescribed accountancy documents."
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for that. But let me say there was an
10 English translation of this, wasn't there? I remember reading the
11 English, and I think what is quoted here by Mr. Saxon is exactly as it
12 stood in the English translation. Now, if you are saying that
13 translation is wrong, then that translation needs to go and be corrected,
14 but then it doesn't become necessary because that document was not
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No. Absolutely right, Your Honours.
17 However, I checked the English translation, and this logistics sector of
18 the General Staff of the VRS is really something that exists in the
19 document. However, what Mr. Saxon quoted on page 4, and I'm quoting from
20 the transcript, I just wanted to correct the transcript and point out
21 that there was a mistake made during Mr. Saxon's reading from the
22 document. That was the point that I was making.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. There it is on the screen, paragraph 3.
24 Show us any reference to the Main Staff of the VRS there, in paragraph 3.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the English version be moved just
1 a little, please.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I want you to show -- okay. Go ahead.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go to the second page. I
4 can't see the item 3 in its entirety. I can't see number 3 in the
5 English version. Can this be moved, please, so that I can see it.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are not going to be able to see all of it at
7 the same time. It will have to be --
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I see. You can see that in
9 the B/C/S version, the General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska is
10 mentioned, and I can't see this in the English version, in the English
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand what you're saying, sir. I
13 understand that. All I'm saying is Mr. Saxon did not misquote. The
14 translation was incorrect if VRS is referred to. So this paragraph at
15 page 4, line 23 is correct.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you are absolutely right.
17 Mr. Saxon was reading from the English version, and I did not intervene.
18 I should have because there's obviously a discrepancy between the B/C/S
19 original and the English translation, which I am aware of now.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, do you have anything to suggest about
21 that situation? I don't know what you -- before I ask you, what do you
22 want us to do about this?
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to read the authentic
24 part from the B/C/S document because this was not recorded. It is not a
25 correction of the transcript because Mr. Saxon was reading properly what
1 is written in the translation. This is now just my intervention with
2 regard to the translation, and that's all.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much then, Mr. Lukic. Thank you
4 for that intervention. You may proceed with the cross-examination.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I thank you.
6 Cross-Examination by Mr. Lukic:
7 Q. General, sir, good morning.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. I'm now going to examine you on behalf of General Perisic
10 Defence, and before I start doing that, I would like to draw your
11 attention to the fact that the two of us speak the same language, but you
12 have realised how long it takes interpreters to interpret our words.
13 That's why I'm going to ask you to slow down and also to make a little
14 pause after each of my questions to allow the interpreters to interpret
15 the question. Also, I will make a little pause after your answer before
16 I start putting my next question.
17 Yesterday at the beginning of your testimony, General, you spoke
18 about the structure of the General Staff, and you mentioned two terms
19 which are very important for me, and I believe that it is important to
20 use them properly when they are translated into English. You mentioned a
21 term "branches and services." Could you please tell us what branches of
22 the army are?
23 A. Branches of the army are the land army, the air force, and the
24 anti-aircraft defence, and the navy.
25 Q. Very well.
1 A. And as for the services, there are also branches. For example,
2 in the land forces there is infantry; there is artillery; there is -- are
3 more than mechanised units; there are engineers; and there's also a BHO,
4 which stands for atomic, biological, and chemical defence. As for the
5 other services, I may be wrong, and I don't want to do that. And there
6 are also the so-called services or sectors in the logistics. For
7 example, there's quartermaster service, technical service, traffic,
8 medical service. There's also veterinary service. I may have skipped
9 one or two.
10 Q. I just wanted you to clarify certain terms, and now I will move
11 on to the engineers. The chief of the administration of engineers is
12 actually the highest professional management and supervision organ of
13 that service; am I correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Also, there are two other terms or, rather, one term that you
16 mentioned, and I would like you to explain the two to us layperson.
17 There are administrations and independent administrations. So what are
18 we talking about? Which are the independent administrations in the Army
19 of Yugoslavia
20 A. The administration of certain branches or services were part of
21 the combat arms; like, for example, when we are talking about land army,
22 my administration was subordinated to the chief of sector for the land
23 army who was also the assistant of the chief of General Staff for the
24 land army. And there were also several independent administrations which
25 were directly subordinated to the Chief of the General Staff. For
1 example, there was the administration for morale, the intelligence
2 administration, the security administration, and I don't know whether
3 there were any others.
4 Q. And again from the layman perspective, the collegium of the Chief
5 of the General Staff were -- its members were chiefs of sectors and
6 chiefs of independent administrations; am I right in thinking that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Tell me, the army commanders, did they attend the collegium
9 meetings regularly or were they invited?
10 A. As far as I know, they would attend meetings occasionally, not
12 Q. Am I right in thinking that the collegium of the Chief of the
13 General Staff dealt with some regular topics at each meeting and there
14 are some special topics that were put on the agenda as needed?
15 A. Yes. This is what I tried to explain yesterday. There are some
16 regular topics from the purview of the elements of the combat readiness
17 of the military. There's also the intelligence and security situation,
18 the situation in the units, issues and problems with replenishment
19 training, everything that had to do with the regular life of the army.
20 There was also the topic of extraordinary events, which comprised
21 disasters and accidents. Also, there are personnel issues that were put
22 on the agenda occasionally when people were promoted into higher ranks,
23 the training of the staff in higher education institutions, and that
24 would be that.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think we could have a
1 break now, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. We'll take a break and come
3 back at quarter to 11.00. Court adjourned.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Q. Just before the break, General, I put a question about the work
9 of the collegium of the Chief of the General Staff with regard to
10 subjects discussed at those meetings. My question is as follows: Would
11 you agree with me if I said that the Chief of the Main Staff at those
12 collegiums put certain questions to his associates who were members of
13 the collegium; he listened to their suggestions and he asked for their
14 opinions; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And I assume that at the end of the collegium, once he had been
17 provided with all the necessary information, he would then assign tasks.
18 He would take decisions and do everything else that he had the authority
19 to do as the Chief of the General Staff; isn't that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. On the basis of your personal experience, did Mr. Perisic respect
22 the suggestions of the members of the collegium of the Chief of the
23 General Staff? Did he abide by the decisions?
24 A. I personally have a very positive experience of that, although I
25 wasn't a regular member at those collegiums, but occasionally I had the
1 opportunity to personally address or respond to an invitation from him to
2 deal with certain tasks within the domain of my service. This usually
3 concerned a request to carry out work for the needs of the civilian
4 population. He accept all my suggestions. He accepted all my
6 Q. Thank you. You were the deputy chief of the engineering
7 administration before 1993. I apologise, perhaps you said this
8 yesterday, but when did you have that position of the deputy chief?
9 A. In March 1991. That's when I assumed that position.
10 Q. That was when the conflict started?
11 A. Yes, when the conflict started.
12 Q. But we are interested in 1992 and 1993 when the war in Bosnia
13 started, so before you became the chief, you were the deputy chief; is
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. At the time, the Chief of the Main Staff was Zivota Panic; isn't
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel is kindly asked to pause after having
20 put his question.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. General, you have to pause briefly after I have put my question
23 to you, and I have to pause too. The interpreters have just warned us to
24 do this.
25 A. Fine.
1 Q. Yesterday - I'm speaking about the year 1991 and 1992 - you said
2 that the economic situation in the country was very difficult, and before
3 this Court we have heard evidence according to which from 1993 until the
4 end of the year inflation had run amuck. There was hyperinflation and
5 the entire economy of the -- of Yugoslavia
6 Would you agree with me?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. These were the reasons for the poor logistic situation of the
9 Army of Yugoslavia
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And, therefore, it was also the reason for why they were poorly
12 equipped with materiel and equipment, had to do with military and
13 industry; isn't that correct?
14 A. Yes. There was a lot of consumption, but production was not
16 Q. Would you agree with me that before Mr. Perisic became the Chief
17 of the Main Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, the situation with regard to
18 the reserves, the materiel and equipment, was very poor in the Army of
20 A. Yes. Yes, it was in a poor situation even before.
21 Q. Would you agree with me that before he assumed the position of
22 the Chief of the Main Staff, the aid sent to the VRS wasn't
23 institutionalised? When I say that, it means that you didn't submit a
24 request through the Main Staff of the VRS to the office of the Chief of
25 the Main Staff; is that correct?
1 A. I am not quite sure how this worked at the time. All I know is
2 that later, order of some kind was established. I personally even during
3 the previous period didn't have any direct contact, but I don't know what
4 the case was with regard to others.
5 Q. You said you didn't have direct contact, but did you hear about
6 situations in the previous period according to which units from the VRS
7 or individuals directly contacted units or institutions of the Army of
9 without any supervision, without any control?
10 A. I don't have any such information.
11 Q. Very well. Would you agree that the legal obligations of the
12 Chief of the Main Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia was to ensure that the
13 army was put to good use and that included materiel and equipment?
14 A. Absolutely. It's his responsibility for the overall situation in
15 the army.
16 Q. Above all, that is in order to carry out the army's main task, to
17 secure the state borders and the state territory?
18 A. Yes, and to be in a state of combat readiness if it's necessary
19 to defend the country.
20 Q. Yes. That's what you told Mr. Saxon when you discussed the
21 subject of combat readiness. Would you agree with me if I said that when
22 establishing such a relationship, well, the Chief of the General Staff
23 has to agree to certain proposals from subordinate units and
24 institutions, and this is in order to have an overall view of the
25 situation with regard to the materiel and equipment that the Army of
2 A. Yes, that's quite clear to me. Every lower level organ is also
3 responsible for the overall situation, for the personnel, for the
4 situation with regard to personnel and materiel. The Chief of the
5 General Staff is responsible for these matters, but he can't be aware of
6 the situation in all the relevant areas, in all the areas which result in
7 a certain degree of combat readiness in the army.
8 Q. General, I assume that you are familiar with the Law on the Army
9 of Yugoslavia
10 supreme commander of the Army of Yugoslavia was the President of the
11 republic in accordance with the law in force on the Army of Yugoslavia.
12 A. I'm not sure whether it's the President of the republic or the
13 Supreme Defence Council. I'm not sure which period you have in mind.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, very briefly, I'd like to have
15 the following called up on the screen: P197, page 1. This is the Law on
16 the Army of Yugoslavia
17 I'm interested in the first two paragraphs in Article 4. We'll wait for
18 the English version to come up on the screen.
19 Q. General --
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Or could you zoom in in large Article
21 4. I'll read through it very slowly.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, the witness asked which period you are
23 referring to, so you've got to --
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
25 Q. Sir, what I'm asking you about relates to the time when Mr.
1 Perisic was appointed as the Chief of the Main Staff, from the end of
2 1993 onwards. That's when he held this position.
3 A. I understand.
4 Q. In Article 4, it states the following:
5 "The President of the republic shall command the army in war and
6 in peace in accordance with decisions of the Supreme Defence Council, and
7 then in his command of the army, the President of the republic shall, 1,
8 establish the principles of internal organisation, the development and
9 equipping of the army."
10 You've already commented on the law. We'll now interpret who is
11 responsible for what. Do you remember, General, that Momcilo Perisic at
12 the collegiums of the General staff informed the members of the decisions
13 and orders issued by the President of the republic in accordance with the
14 decisions of the Supreme Council?
15 A. Well, I wasn't present at such meetings. I wasn't a regular
16 member of the collegium, as I have said. Some information was relayed, I
17 remember that, but I can't remember the content of the information
18 relayed. I knew what was at stake, but I wasn't sure -- because of the
19 time that has passed, I wasn't sure whether it was the President of the
20 republic or whether the supreme council that was responsible, but now
21 it's clear to me having seen this.
22 Q. Very well. General, in the course of your work, did you ever
23 come across a case in which General Perisic in which the Chief of the
24 General Staff the Army of Yugoslavia requested that something should be
25 done by bypassing the procedure that you have been referring to? You
1 mentioned a procedure when it comes to providing materiel assistance,
2 technical assistance. You said this was done through requests from the
3 Chief of the Main Staff, and one would also have to obtain the opinion of
4 the relevant administration, for example, your administration. Did you
5 ever hear about Mr. Perisic authorizing some equipment to be provided
6 without asking for your opinion?
7 A. No, I don't have any such information.
8 Q. Let me be broader. In general, when it was necessary to follow
9 certain procedure and to ask for an administration's opinion, were there
10 any cases in which Perisic acted willfully or on his own initiative and
11 failed to respect the procedure that had to be followed?
12 A. As I have said, I wasn't the only one who participated in that
13 procedure. There were other colleagues of mine from other
14 administrations who were involved in the procedure. Often, we worked
15 together. Everyone was responsible for his own field. They were
16 responsible for ammunition, tank shells. I was responsible for
17 ordinance, explosives. So this procedure concerned all of us. I know
18 who I worked with, and that's how things worked. As for whether there
19 were any exceptions, well, I don't know.
20 Q. Very well.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have document P621 MFI
22 on the screen, please.
23 Q. You answered questions put to you about this document by
24 Mr. Saxon yesterday, and now you say that you can't remember any cases in
25 which the procedure that you have mentioned wasn't followed. Can I
1 therefore conclude that there was a request from the Chief of the Main
2 Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia to act in this way? You then acted in
3 accordance with this request from the Chief of the Main Staff to provide
4 ammunition, for example.
5 A. Yes. Yesterday I said that there was something missing here,
6 another document. That's the request from the General Staff of Republika
7 Srpska. It should have contained someone's position, the chief's
8 position, the sector's position. It depended on how I obtained the
9 document. I couldn't do this on my own initiative, but when copying
10 documents -- well, I don't understand why this other document doesn't
11 exist along with this one.
12 Q. When you say copying documents, you mean what was shown to you?
13 A. Yes. This is a copy of that document of mine.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have P624 on the screen,
16 Q. Yesterday, also, you discussed this document. You commented on
17 the document yesterday. You commented on the handwritten part at the
18 top, "give it to Ratko to have this solved"; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Does this look like the handwriting of the Chief of the Main
21 Staff? Now -- well, could we have a look at the second page of the
22 document now. Could we have a look at the bottom, in the lower part of
23 the document, as you can see. We're interested in the bottom part of the
24 document. Thank you.
25 We have a signature from the office of the Chief of the Main
1 Staff. We have a number and date, and that's to the left; isn't that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then we have the text that was read out to you yesterday, and
5 it was signed on behalf of the chief of the office by Colonel Borovic.
6 This was sent to the logistics sector, to the -- to Mr. Milovanovic;
7 isn't that correct?
8 A. Yes, lieutenant-general.
9 Q. His name was Ratko; isn't that correct?
10 A. Yes, Ratko.
11 Q. You said that he is deceased?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. We can see that the Chief of the Main Staff in the written part
14 of the text said, "give it to Ratko..." He had Ratko Milovanovic in
15 mind. He was in the sector for logistics of the General Staff of the
16 Army of Yugoslavia
17 A. Yes, that's what it says.
18 Q. And if there are certain requests sent from the Main Staff of the
19 VRS, as I understand it when the Chief of the General Staff or his office
20 received the request, he asks Ratko Milovanovic the logistics sector to
21 check to see whether this equipment can be provided; is that correct?
22 A. Yes. That's what the responsibility of that sector is. Whatever
23 isn't the responsibility of the sector is then forwarded to other sectors
24 that are responsible for this.
25 Q. Yes. And then they provide their opinions?
1 A. Yes. They provide their opinions, and it's sent back to the
2 logistics sector.
3 Q. Thank you. That's how I understood this document. You can't see
4 in this document whether this request was met, whether anything was
5 provided, everything or whether the procedure was launched and whether an
6 inquiry would be made into whether something could be provided pursuant
7 to the request; do you agree with me?
8 A. Yes. That's how I am reading this document. That's what it
10 Q. Thank you. Do you know, General, that when there was a need for
11 certain -- okay, the first question: When it comes to mines and other
12 technical means that were within the purview of your engineers
13 administration, were such things produced by the military industry of the
14 Army of Yugoslavia
15 A. Yes. Most of that -- there were a lot of supplies left over from
16 the period after the Second World War which had come from the Soviet
18 Q. Do you agree with me that the Army of Yugoslavia could not
19 directly take anything from the military industry of Yugoslavia without
20 the approval and consent of the Ministry of Defence?
21 A. Yes. The Ministry of Defence had organisation units that were
22 responsible for supply and procurement. They were the main organ through
23 which supplies were executed, and it all depended on --
24 Q. Do you agree with me that the military industry of Yugoslavia was
25 under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Defence?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And now you've just mentioned the division for procurement of the
3 Ministry of Defence. Are you aware of the division of military and
4 economic activities? Do you know what this division was in charge of?
5 If you don't know, you just say so.
6 A. No, I don't know. I never had any contacts with that division.
7 Q. Are you familiar with the name of Radojica Kadijevic do you know
8 what General Kadijevic did, where he was?
9 A. Yes. I know he was affiliated with the ministry, but I can't
10 remember his position. He was dealing with the issues of production of
11 the military industry. I don't know his function, his exact function.
12 Q. Okay. I won't dwell upon that.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.
14 Q. Could you please be more precise. You said that he was with the
15 ministry. Did you mean the Ministry of Defence?
16 A. Yes, I meant the Ministry of Defence.
17 Q. Very well, then. And now let's go back to the procedure that was
18 necessary to send the assistant to the Army of Republika Srpska. When
19 you provided your opinion or recommendation or consent, when you said
20 that it was possible to send a certain quantity of mines, for example,
21 you wouldn't know whether that was provided or not. As far as I could
22 understand you, this recommendation went to the logistics sector, and
23 then the logistics sector had to find means and ways to distribute the
24 requested equipment. Am I right in thinking that?
25 A. Yes. In my consent, the consent of my administration, there
1 would be a remark to be taken from the 1st Army, from the 2nd Army
2 because we maintained records, and we were aware of the situation of
3 replenishment, and we would suggest that the materiel and equipment be
4 taken from where they were -- from where they were plentiful.
5 Q. You mean to be taken from where there was enough?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you receive any feedback from, for example, the logistics
8 base of the 1st Army that the means and equipment were sent? Were you
9 provided with such information?
10 A. No, never.
11 Q. Do you remember, General, if your administration, the engineers
12 administration in the course of 1994 and 1995 maintained special records
13 of the quantities of mines that were sent to the Army of Republika
14 Srpska, for example?
15 A. Yes. We maintained records all the time. Even before, during
16 the existence of the JNA, and later, all the time while I was a member of
17 the army, the records were updated constantly. My desk officer would go
18 to the technical administration twice a year. He would go to the
19 logistics sector, and he would collate the records with the books
20 maintained by the person in charge of the same thing in the logistics.
21 That means that the chiefs of the army and not the subordinated unions
22 would have yearly briefings on the combat activities of their branches;
23 and in addition to other things, they would also inform on the quantities
24 of the equipment and materiel that they had at their disposal. That was
25 also one way of collate information.
1 Q. My question was whether you maintained records of how much was
2 sent to the Army of Republika Srpska. I was not interested in the
3 overall records.
4 A. I apologise. Yes, on our records we also maintained records of
5 how much of what means and technical equipment were sent to one or the
6 other army; for example, in the Republika Srpska or the Serbian Army of
7 Krajina, yes, we did maintain such records as well.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's fine. It's not only you.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters. Can
14 we please move into private session just for a moment, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can the Chamber please move into private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 3970 redacted. Private session.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I may have misspoken. And if we
2 can go on in private session, I would like to discuss another document
3 with the witness for which I would like us to be in private session. I
4 don't know whether the document P623 MFI is also under seal or not. If
5 it's not, then -- if it is, then we could remain. Just a moment.
6 Could the document please be put on the screen for the benefit of
7 the witness.
8 Q. General, sir.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You spoke about this document yesterday. At the request of the
11 Army Republika Srpska, there is a reference to some -- if the document to
12 be lowered a little for the General to be able to see the signature. It
13 is your signature, sir, and this is a request for anti-infantry mines;
14 the total quantity is 10.000. Am I right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can we now scroll up a little. As far as I can see, the document
17 was drafted in May 1995; am I right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you agree with me, General, if I say that anti-infantry and
20 anti-tank mines are actually defensive devices that are intended to
21 prevent the onslaught of the enemy; in my lay terms, I would explain
23 A. Yes, these are means of defence which is used to protect the
24 positions and lines of the units that are defending a certain sector and
25 certain positions.
1 Q. Yes, you're right. Do you remember that during this period of
2 time in May or, rather, in spring 1995, there was a major offensive
3 launched by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in very large parts of the
4 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina against the Army of Republika Srpska,
5 and that was already towards the end of the war, to put it that way?
6 A. Yes. I remember having heard stories. I remember having seen
7 and listened about that on the media. I know that this was going on, but
8 I don't really remember during which period of time, but I believe your
9 word. I take your word for it.
10 Q. And do you remember that this quantity of 10.000 mines was among
11 the biggest deliveries that were allowed at the time, and I'm talking
12 about the quantity.
13 A. No, it wasn't. This was within the limits of the previous
14 requests. There were even larger quantities before. This is a somewhat
15 smaller quantity, I would say. Sometimes there were requests for 20.000,
16 but as I've already told you we usually reduce these numbers. We would
17 bring the numbers down very often.
18 Q. Let's put aside the request. I'm talking about the quantity that
19 was approved. Was this something out of the ordinary or not?
20 A. Yes. This was approved, and it was nothing out of the ordinary,
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document can be removed from the
23 screen, and we can go back into open session, but we will continue
24 talking about this topic.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
4 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Please bear with me.
6 Can we look at your statement, the one that you provided to the OTP of
7 this Tribunal on the 27th and 30th January, 2005. This is
8 document 1D005965. Could this please be put on the screen, paragraph 17,
9 page 9 in B/C/S version, and I hope the representative of the Registry
10 will be able to assist me with the equivalent English page.
11 Q. You are talking about the number of 100.000 mines, and you say -
12 and let me jog your memory, General - it says amongst other things in
13 this paragraph 17 -- can we scroll down a little in B/C/S. Towards the
14 end of this paragraph, you say:
15 "On some five or six occasions, I recommended for the forces of
16 the VRS at their request to be supplied with mines. In the course of
17 these two years, a total of 100.000 different types of mines were
18 provided to the VRS ..."
19 You said that you remembered that there were five or six such
20 cases. Is it possible that we are not talking about such a large number
21 of 100.000? Maybe you supplied less mines.
22 A. Everything is possible. It may have been less. There may have
23 been more than this number of occasions. I saw some documents here which
24 prove that there were requests in 1993 and approvals, as well, so I was
25 not sure then, and I'm still not sure, but I don't think there were more
1 mines than this figure. I confirmed to you that the records were
2 maintained. I don't have the records on me, and I can't give you the
3 exact quantities. There's no way for me to be sure of the exact
5 Q. You also said in this statement that according to your opinion --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please make a break, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters once
9 Q. You said that in your opinion or according to what you knew,
10 about 1 million mines have remained in the territory of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina once the JNA had left the territory of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you remember having mentioned that figure?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. You also said that that quantity of mines fell into the hands of
15 all the three warring parties, but would you agree with me that most of
16 the -- those mines ended up in the hands of the Army of Republika Srpska?
17 A. A certain quantity of mines and other explosives that had
18 belonged to the units deployed in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina
19 were supplemented by some of the mines and explosives that were being
20 pulled out from the republics of Slovenia and Croatia
21 remained in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, all that together,
22 and I suppose that when we are talking about mines that a total figure of
23 those mines were about 1 million, and they were taken over by the units
24 of the three militaries that had been established in the meantime, the
25 Serb military, the Muslim military, and the Croatian military. I don't
1 know the ratio and how much each of the militaries took. I suppose that
2 most of those mines ended up with the Army of Republika Srpska.
3 Q. In your opinion, according to what you know, what was the
4 relationship of the VRS towards that equipment? Did they use it
6 A. Well, it was war-time. The situations varied. When I had
7 contact with colleagues, with associates, I heard that this equipment
8 wasn't used very rationally. Certain areas would be mined. Mines would
9 be laid, and then when the unit left, the mines wouldn't be taken away;
10 they would be left there, or there were temporary warehouses from which
11 they didn't take away the equipment because of ongoing fighting or for
12 other reasons. And this is why I'm saying that I don't think that this
13 equipment was used rationally.
14 Q. Very well. In any event, yesterday you said, and you've
15 emphasised this today, given the requests of the VRS that you received --
16 well, not all the requests were granted. Only some of the requests were
17 granted for the needs of the VRS; isn't that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. We'll now move on to another subject, but I'd just like to make
20 use of this page of the transcript. Could we just scroll up a bit and
21 see item 15 in the B/C/S version. It's your statement. Yesterday,
22 Mr. Saxon asked you about the 30th centre, the 30th Personnel Centre.
23 I'll read out part of your statement, and then I'll ask you whether you
24 stand by what you said. I'm going to start in the middle.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: What paragraph are you reading?
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's paragraph 15 in the English
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm reading from the mid-section.
5 Q. "I believe that the 30th Personnel Centre was used to administer
6 the personnel files and related paperwork of those VJ officers, the
7 non-commissioned officers born in Bosnia
8 and serve in the VRS. Most officers I believe answered the call-up of
9 the 30th Personnel Centre and went to serve in Bosnia. However, I
10 believe that some did not. Those who did not respond to the call-up
11 didn't suffer any consequences. The 30th Personnel Centre also
12 administered the officers and non-commissioned officers of the former JNA
13 who remained in Bosnia
14 administered VJ personnel who were not born in Bosnia but voluntarily
15 joined the VRS."
16 General, could you just confirm that this is what you in fact
17 said, and do you stand by that? Is that the information that you had at
18 the time?
19 A. Yes, that's what I said, and according to what I know, I believe
20 that that was the case.
21 Q. Thank you. There's another subject I would like to deal with
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go into private session,
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, what do you want to do with
1 this statement on the screen? ID 005965?
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I don't want this witness
3 statement to be admitted. I just wanted to show parts of the document to
4 the witness, so I don't want the entire document to be admitted.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. May the Chamber please move into private
7 [Private session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. General, we'll now go through another three documents, which will
12 provide us with a clear picture on what you had been testifying about.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the document 7899,
14 item 1, please.
15 Q. As you can see, this is request from the Main Staff of the VRS
16 dated the 26th of May, 1995, and I can see that it's addressed to your
17 administration, to the engineers administration, and equipment is being
18 requested. Are these things that your administration is generally
19 responsible for, the things referred to here? Are these the categories
20 of equipment that you would be responsible for?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at page 2 on the
23 screen in the B/C/S version, please.
24 Q. It's a telegram sent from the Main Staff signed by Ratko Mladic,
25 Colonel-General Ratko Mladic. Under A and B, it says that the 14th POB,
1 logistics base will take over the above-mentioned equipment. Is that
3 A. Yes, but I don't know whose base.
4 Q. That's what I wanted to ask you about. Do you know about there
5 being a 14th POB in the Army of Yugoslavia?
6 A. I'm not aware of that. I'm not familiar with their names.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Before we have a look at this,
8 let's have a look at another document. 7899, item 3 [as interpreted].
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we are waiting for this document, can I just
10 ask the witness. I see -- I've been seeing this in quite a number of
11 documents, like this English one, it's there also on the B/C/S, that a
12 number of q's and a line at the bottom. Do those q's mean anything?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just see. Where?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: If we can show the bottom of the B/C/S, well, if
15 this is still the same document. See, on the English side below Ratko
16 Mladic, there are a number of q's there. They are also there on the left
17 side on the B/C/S, but there are fewer. Is this -- at the end of this
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that, but I don't know
20 what this stands for. It must be a code from a teleprinter, something
21 like that.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me just correct the transcript,
24 make a minor correction. With regard to the document, I wanted to show
25 the transcript says that I asked for 7899, document 7899. I asked for
1 78099 [as interpreted], item 02. I asked to see -- I'll repeat the
2 number. I asked to see document 07899, item 02.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: This one that's on the screen, it has been
4 tendered already through the Prosecution, or what do you want to do with
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't think this document has been
7 admitted into evidence. It's a similar document. I would like to tender
8 it, but I wanted to have a look at all the three documents concerned and
9 ask for each one to be admitted. There are three documents. It was on
10 the list, the documents that the Prosecution wanted to show to the
11 witness, and then Mr. Saxon decided not to do this. It would be best,
12 perhaps, to request that it be admitted into evidence in this manner.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: This one?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And it could be under seal since
15 there are still a state request. We agreed that this document should be
16 given an MFI
17 additional Prosecution list, so perhaps it could retain the MFI number.
18 In general, we won't be objecting to this document. We ourselves suggest
19 that it be admitted.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon. You were on your feet.
21 MR. SAXON: The Prosecution agrees with Mr. Lukic's suggestion.
22 Thank you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. May 7899 then be admitted into
24 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number under seal.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D56 marked for
1 identification under seal.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, marked for
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have the other document
5 on the screen, 07899, item 03.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it item 03 or item 02?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Item 3 on the screen now. In the
8 previous document, it was item 2. I'm told that we don't have an English
9 translation of this document, Your Honours. I don't know whether I
10 should read the entire document out or just read out a couple of
11 sentences and wait for the translation. I just want the witness to
12 confirm that this is his signature and that it has to do with the
13 previous request. Perhaps I should read it out aloud so that you can
14 follow, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead. Do what you want to do, but do give us
16 a translation in due course.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. This is a document, it has a stamp in which it says the General
19 Staff -- the Main Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, the KOV sector,
20 engineers administration, POV BR, confidential number 286/3-3, 30th of
21 May, 1995. To the right, it says: Military secret, confidential; title:
22 Providing engineering equipment, NVO --
23 A. Weapons and military equipment.
24 Q. You can help us. And MES?
25 A. Mines and ordnance.
1 Q. VRS, that's the Army of the Republika Srpska, authorisation
2 forwarded to, and then it says to the office of the chief of the GS VJ;
3 subject: Related to the document of the GS VRS, strictly confidential
4 number 04/11-29, dated the 26th of May, 1995:
5 "The engineers administration, which is responsible for
6 engineering equipment such as NVO
7 request and hereby expresses its position with regard to the request.
8 "Item 1. Regardless of the fact that there is a shortage of
9 engineering equipment such as NVO
10 the GS VRS with the following equipment ..."
11 I don't think it's necessary to read through all of these items
12 here. I'll just read out item 2. A certain equipment is mentioned under
13 that item. It says:
14 "We are not in a position to provide the other equipment
15 requested because of the critical situation."
16 It's signed by the chief. Here it says Colonel Milan Mihajlovic.
17 A. Mladen Mihajlovic.
18 Q. I apologise. Mladen. General, you signed this document, didn't
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Does this document correspond to the previous request that we had
22 a look at awhile ago?
23 A. Yes, that's correct. It does.
24 Q. And it confirms what you testified about. When something was
25 requested, you would examine the possibilities of the Army of Yugoslavia,
1 and you would then express your position and say that some equipment
2 should be provided or shouldn't be provided; isn't that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then you would forward that to the office of the Chief of the
5 Main Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we remove this document, without going
8 through all that equipment that is listed there, can you tell us what
9 type of equipment that is that is being supplied? In general terms, not
10 each item.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 1 -- under item 1, requests
12 are made for mechanical and other types of detonators for certain mines;
13 then electrical detonators requested; yesterday, as we said, sort of a
14 missile device was requested; a mining cable; engineering and sabotage
15 equipment is requested; equipment for mining work; and then "asovcici"
16 are requested. These are tools that enable soldiers to dig in.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have this admitted into
18 evidence, please. [In English] Under seal.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted into evidence under seal, I thought --
20 and MFI
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, may it please be given an exhibit number,
24 marked for identification, under seal, please.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D57 marked for
1 identification under seal.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree. I'm calling for
22 65 ter 7897. Could this please be put on the screen. I'm sorry. It's
23 on the screen already. I was looking at LiveNote.
24 Q. General, do you see the document in front of you? This is a
25 letter sent by the cabinet of the Chief of General Staff of the Army of
2 Republika Srpska?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Let's not read the whole document, but let me ask you, do you
5 agree with me that the contents of this document correspond with the
6 position that you assent in the previous document to the Chief of the
7 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia
8 what you wrote in the previous document; do you agree with me?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. This document was signed by Colonel Sinisa Borovic. You know
11 that at the time he was the chief of the cabinet of the Chief of the
12 General Staff. Do you know that?
13 A. Yes. I know he was the chief of the cabinet, but I don't know
14 during which period of time. Now I can see it on the screen.
15 Q. And this document actually confirms what you spoke about the
16 entire procedure, starting with the request, providing the opinion, and
17 then your opinion was sent to the Chief of the General Staff for his
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could this please be admitted into
21 evidence. It doesn't have to be now. We can wait for the Prosecution to
22 confirm that this document is not under seal, and until then I would like
23 this document to be admitted as a public document without any
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why can't we admit it under seal now until we hear
1 from the Prosecution? It is so admitted --
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted under seal.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D58 under
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Any re-examination, Mr. Saxon?
20 MR. SAXON: A few minutes, Your Honour, if I may.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.
22 MR. SAXON: Can we move into private session briefly, please.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. May the Chamber please move into private
25 MR. SAXON: Actually. I can do that in a moment. Perhaps if we
1 can stay in public session and call up again Exhibit P197, which Mr.
2 Lukic used with the witness.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:
4 Q. If we could focus on Article 4, please, in the B/C/S version, as
5 well, for the assistance of the ...
6 General, you were shown the Law on the Army, this particular
7 Exhibit, during cross-examination of my colleague Mr. Lukic, and your
8 attention was directed to Article 4, which begins saying -- it gives the
9 authority of the President vis-a-vis the army in the beginning, and then
10 it says:
11 "In his command of the army, the President of the republic shall
12 ..." and then there's a list of items that the President is responsible
13 for. And if you could, if we could focus --
14 MR. SAXON: If we could go to the next page in the B/C/S version,
15 please. And if we could focus in on the top left-hand corner.
16 Q. In subparagraph 8, the President is to perform other duties
17 relating to the command over the army in accordance with -- I think
18 that's federal law. I can't quite read it. If we could scroll to the
19 left in the English version. Yes. And then the last sentence it says
20 that in performing the duties --
21 A. I can't see Article 8, I am afraid.
22 MR. SAXON: Really? Can we zoom in on Article 8 for the General.
23 Q. It's not Article -- I'm sorry. It's subparagraph 8, General.
24 We're still in Article 4. We've just gone over to the next page.
25 A. Okay. I understand now, yes.
1 Q. Okay. And in the last part of the subparagraph 8, the President
2 of the republic shall issue orders, commands, and decisions. Are you
3 following with me?
4 A. Yes, I can follow. I can follow item 8.
5 MR. SAXON: Can we move into private session, please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 3988-3992 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. I'm sorry we excused the
5 witness in private session. We should have done it in open session.
6 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, Mr. Cannata will call the next witness.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
9 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honours. If I can have some time
10 to just switch the computer. Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have the time.
12 MR. SAXON: And Your Honour, may Ms. Carter be excused from the
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Ms. Carter is excused but not you. You
15 didn't ask for yourself. Are you also asking to be excused?
16 MR. SAXON: I need to consult with my colleague.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, you are excused.
18 MR. SAXON: I will remain in your company, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 MR. CANNATA: The Prosecution calls Dr. Milan Mandilovic, Your
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, sir.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon. May you please make the
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. You may be seated, sir. Yes,
5 Mr. Cannata.
6 WITNESS: MILAN MANDILOVIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examination by Mr. Cannata:
9 Q. Thank you, Your Honour. Sir, can you please state your full name
10 for the record?
11 A. Milan
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. CANNATA: Can I have 65 ter 9418.
14 Q. While we're waiting for the document to be uploaded, can you tell
15 the Court what was your profession during the war in Sarajevo between
16 1993 and 1995?
17 A. During the relevant period, my profession was identical to the
18 profession that I had before that. I am a general practitioner, and then
19 I specialised in ENT surgery. This is what I did before the war, during
20 the war, and I continued doing that now. At the time, I was the head of
21 the clinical department for ENT diseases.
22 Q. At the State Hospital
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
25 Do you remember testifying before this Tribunal in the case
1 Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic on 17 January 2007?
2 A. Yes, I testified.
3 MR. CANNATA: Can we please have 65 ter 9419. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are you doing with 9418?
5 MR. CANNATA: I will ask for the admission at the later stage. I
6 will ask for the admission of both transcripts. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Sir, do you also remember testifying before this Tribunal in a
8 different case, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic case? Do you
9 remember that?
10 A. Yes, I remember testifying against General Galic.
11 Q. Thank you very much. Did you have an opportunity to review your
12 testimony in both these cases?
13 A. Yes, thank you very much. I did.
14 Q. Do you confirm that your previous testimony is true and accurate
15 to the best of your knowledge?
16 A. Yes, I can confirm that.
17 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, at this point I will tender
18 65 ter numbers 9418 and 9419 into evidence. Those are the two
19 transcripts from Dr. Mandilovic's previous testimony.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: 9418 is admitted into evidence. May it please be
21 given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P631.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. And 9419.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P632.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 MR. CANNATA:
2 Q. Sir, did you also have an opportunity to review some of the
3 copies of the medical records you dealt with during your testimony in the
4 Dragomir Milosevic case?
5 A. Yes, indeed. I reviewed the medical records, and I could
6 establish that they were valid, that they originated from two hospitals
7 in Sarajevo
8 both of them in Sarajevo
9 Q. Thank you very much.
10 MR. CANNATA: Can we please have 65 ter 8701 on the screen,
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you need me to comment upon
14 MR. CANNATA:
15 Q. Just wait for the question. Thank you.
16 A. Okay. Thank you.
17 Q. Sir, do you confirm that these are copies of authentic medical
18 records that you signed yourself and that were issued by the State
19 Hospital in Sarajevo
20 A. Absolutely. I can confirm this is my handwriting, and I
21 absolutely adhere by what is stated herein.
22 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much. Can this document be admitted
23 into evidence, Your Honour.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: There is no objection, the document having been
25 signed by the witness.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The document is admitted
2 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P633.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MR. CANNATA: Can we now move to 65 ter 8698. Thank you. Thank
7 Q. Sir, do you confirm that these are copies of authentic medical
8 records issued by the State Hospital of Sarajevo?
9 A. Yes, I can confirm that.
10 MR. CANNATA: Thank you. Can we please move to page 14 of the
11 B/C/S. Thank you.
12 Q. Sir, do you confirm that this page, just in front of you,
13 contains actually two different medical records, the one at the top being
14 issued by the State Hospital
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: At this juncture, considering the fact that the
18 Prosecutor is well aware of the fact that there are some disputes with
19 regard to documents following, I would ask that he does not lead the
20 witness but, rather, obtains the information from the witness.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
22 MR. CANNATA: Sir, Your Honour, this is a 92 ter witness, and the
23 relevant evidence about these documents are already part of the evidence
24 before this Chamber. They are in 9418 and 9419, but considering my
25 learned friend's objection, I will delay the discussion of this
1 particular page to a later point.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The point is even if they may be in evidence, if
3 it's a disputed issue, you shouldn't lead your witness. The witness must
4 testify, not you. Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. To the extent that there is an issue,
6 I would remind my friend that we've had more than one discussion about
7 the representations made by the Prosecution concerning these exhibits
8 which can be found at page 582 and 583 of the transcript in the Milosevic
9 case. So I would --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. We are dealing with the transcript
11 here. I think we have ruled that that is enough. The counsel has been
12 told to ask questions and get answers and not lead the witness.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
14 MR. CANNATA: May I, Your Honour?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, sir.
16 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Sir, in performing your duties as a doctor with the State
18 Hospital in Sarajevo
19 other Sarajevo
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm going to object to that question as
21 also being leading because it suggests the answer, which is the basis
22 upon which a question is determined to be leading. He can ask whether or
23 not he came across other medical records from other hospitals in the
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any response to that?
1 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, I stick to the point that the answer
2 to these questions is already part of the trial record of this case, and
3 I can give you the reference of the Dragomir Milosevic transcripts where
4 the issue has been dealt with, but I'm happy to rephrase the question if
5 that assists Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is overruled, but let me say this to
7 you, Mr. Cannata: This Trial Chamber is not listening to the testimony
8 in Milosevic case. It's listening to the testimony in Perisic case.
9 Please don't lead your witness. Ask your witness questions. That the
10 evidence has been admitted is one thing; the other thing is that the
11 Defence might be disputing that evidence, and, therefore, to that extent
12 you may not lead your witness. Your witness must testify. That's what
13 you are doing in direct examination, not you testifying.
14 MR. CANNATA: I understand, Your Honour.
15 Q. Sir, I will rephrase my question, then. In performing your
16 duties as a doctor with the State Hospital
17 across medical records issued by other Sarajevo hospitals?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what were the other Sarajevo
20 A. All hospitals -- well, I came across medical documents from all
21 hospitals, and I came across patients, naturally, who had been treated in
22 other hospitals or checked up there, because in addition to the two
23 hospitals we are discussing, there were other medical institutions at a
24 lower level that were functioning in Sarajevo. We had primary health
25 care that had been developed. First, the wounded would go to a GP for
1 primary health care, or they would go to their military doctor at the
2 battle-field, and then only after that they would be sent to one of the
3 hospitals. So given my profession, I had to have constant contact with
4 the findings from a whole series of other doctors.
5 Q. Let me stop you here. You mentioned they will be sent to one of
6 the hospitals. Which were the hospitals in Sarajevo that you are
7 familiar with the medical records?
8 A. There are two traditional hospitals, the State Hospital
10 the military hospital in Dobrinja because that part of Sarajevo is about
11 10 kilometres away. It was an independent institution, a particular
12 institution, but given the sort of medical services it provided, I would
13 say that this was a lower-level institution.
14 Q. Was the clinical centre known under a different name?
15 A. No. The clinical centre was called the clinical centre, or
16 perhaps someone else called it the --
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the first word.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- of the centre in Sarajevo
19 MR. CANNATA:
20 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Can we go back to --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter didn't hear the first word. Can
22 you ask the witness to please repeat himself.
23 MR. CANNATA: Of course, Your Honours.
24 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, can you please repeat your answer because the
25 interpreter couldn't catch the first word.
1 A. Yes. To make it easier to communicate, one used the term "the
2 clinical centre," but its real name was the university clinical centre,
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the State Hospital
5 Hospital, nothing else? Nothing else to that name?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just the State Hospital
7 State Hospital
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any other hospitals that you received records
9 from, that you can remember?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Documents came from health centres
11 and, as I have already said, from hospitals that were further away. The
12 hospital in Dobrinja, that was 10 kilometres from the centre of the town.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to remember the names of the
14 hospitals that these documents came from?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's just the Dobrinja
16 hospital, just the Dobrinja hospital.
17 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honours. Can we go back to
18 65 ter 8698 and move to page 14, please.
19 Q. Sir, do you see a document in front of you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you please describe what you can see in this
22 document to the Chamber. Thank you.
23 A. I can see a first and last name, a patient's first and last name.
24 This patient went to the State Hospital. I can see a registration number
25 and the date of this visit. I can see the diagnosis, and I can see
1 treatment prescribed, and below I can see something that is handwritten
2 and something printed out, typed out. The patient after checkup in the
3 State Hospital, because of the seriousness of the condition, was taken to
4 the surgical department of the clinical centre in Sarajevo, was taken
5 there for chest surgery, because in this finding, it quite clearly
6 states, in the upper left-hand corner, we have the stamp of the State
7 Hospital and the findings of the doctor, and we have the clinical centre
8 stamp in the lower left-hand corner. Why did this happen? I wasn't
9 there, but on the basis of the findings I can speculate as to why this
10 was done because the first diagnosis shows that a thorax had been wounded
11 in the State Hospital
12 interventions and, therefore, the patient was sent by us to a higher
13 level to see a chest surgeon in the clinical centre.
14 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Now, on account of your experience as
15 a doctor with the State Hospital
16 records such as the one you just saw on the screen issued by the clinical
17 centre in Sarajevo?
18 A. I still have the same document on the screen, the same one I had
19 awhile ago. I don't have anything new.
20 Q. My question -- please listen carefully to my question. My
21 question to you is --
22 A. I will.
23 Q. -- of more general terms. I'm asking you, on account of your
24 experience as a doctor with the State Hospital
25 medical records issued by the clinical centre in Sarajevo?
1 A. I did. I did.
2 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, sir. May I move 65 ter 8698
3 into evidence, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P634.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry. Just so I'm clear, are you moving in
9 the entirety of that document based on the examination with regard to
10 this one page?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Guy-Smith, but why don't you stand
12 up at the right time?
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, there are three reasons for that. One is
14 that I was having a brief conversation with my assistant. The second is
15 that it takes me longer to stand up today than it does normally, and I
16 would not object from a sitting position because that would show the
17 Court disrespect. If I can object immediately from a sitting position,
18 then I will be moving that much quicker.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The point regarding your very first reason, Mr.
20 Guy-Smith, when the move was made, you were not talking. You turned
21 after the move because I was looking at you thinking that you have
22 anything to say about the document, and when you started talking to your
23 colleague, that's when I admitted the document.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Then I made a mistake.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That's much better. Are you tendering
1 the entire document, sir, or 14 pages?
2 MR. CANNATA: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your colleague says he is tendering the entire
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would object to the balance of the document
6 being tendered at this point absent further foundation being laid.
7 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, we actually discussed the very first
8 page of this document. I'm happy to go through each single page of these
9 documents, but the witness has reviewed these documents in the proofing
10 session yesterday, and these documents have been reviewed by the witness
11 again in a different proceedings and exhibited in different proceedings.
12 These documents come as the 92 ter package of this witness.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata, will you go through the documents
14 with the witness in this court, please.
15 MR. CANNATA: I will, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. CANNATA: Can we go back to the first page of 65 ter 8698.
18 Thank you.
19 Q. Sir, do you see this document?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Is that a medical record issued by the State Hospital in
23 A. It is. It is.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just ask the witness what it is. Please don't
25 testify. Let the witness --
1 MR. CANNATA: My apologies, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. You have been warned that these documents
3 are disputed. Let the witness testify, not you.
4 MR. CANNATA:
5 Q. Can you tell the Chamber the hospital originating this document?
6 A. The Sarajevo State Hospital
7 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much. Can we move to the next page,
9 Q. Sir, are you able to tell the Court what institution originated
10 this document? I know it's a very bad copy, but can you tell that?
11 A. The Sarajevo State Hospital, you can see that in the upper
12 left-hand corner, and down below you can see the signature of the doctor
13 in the lower right-hand corner. This is a document issued by the
14 Sarajevo State Hospital
15 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, sir. Can we move to the next page.
16 Thank you.
17 Q. Sir, once again --
18 A. This is a document from the Sarajevo State Hospital
19 Q. Thank you, sir. Just wait for my question. Thank you.
20 MR. CANNATA: Can we move to the next page.
21 Q. Again, sir, can you tell us, what's the source of this document?
22 A. This is a document from the Sarajevo State Hospital
23 Q. Dr. Mandilovic -- actually, can we please move to the next page.
24 Hold on one second. Thank you, sir. Can you please testify to the
25 source of this document?
1 A. This is a document from the Sarajevo State Hospital
2 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, sir. Can we please move to the next
3 document, then.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a document from the
5 Sarajevo State Hospital
6 MR. CANNATA:
7 Q. Thank you, Dr. Mandilovic. Again, please wait for my question
8 before answering. Thanks.
9 MR. CANNATA: Can we move to the next page.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
11 MR. CANNATA:
12 Q. Sir, can you tell us what the source of this document is?
13 A. This is also a medical document from the Sarajevo State Hospital
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. CANNATA: Next page, please.
16 Q. Sir, can you tell the source of this document for the Chamber,
18 A. This is a document from the Sarajevo State Hospital
19 Q. Thank you. Can we please move to the next page.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I know what page we are on, please.
21 MR. CANNATA: The one I just called, and it's been uploaded on
22 e-court, it's 0036-0193.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's the one that's signed by Dr. Dzafic?
24 MR. CANNATA: I can only tell it's 0036-0193. It should be page
25 9 as it appears on e-court.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understand the previous one was signed by
2 Dr. Dzafic. This one has an illegible signature.
3 MR. CANNATA: I don't understand the point, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your colleague is saying that the previous one was
5 signed by Dr. Dzafic and this one has got an illegible signature. That's
6 what he says. I guess he is asking you to go back to the previous page.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm just -- I'm trying to figure out where
8 the previous page because when we get up to the -- when we finish with
9 this examination, the issue comes up once again with regard to the
10 admission of his exhibit, I want to make sure that I can reference the
11 specific page, and since I have a signature here of Dr. Dzavic, I want to
12 make sure that when I'm discussing the matter with the Court I'm
13 discussing the right page.
14 MR. CANNATA: Can we please go back to the page number 8. If I
15 can assist the Defence counsel, is that the page he is talking about
16 because, really, I don't understand what page are we talking about.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: That is the page. Thank you.
18 MR. CANNATA: The witness already testified to this page, Your
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead. Go to the next page.
21 MR. CANNATA: Thank you. Can we move to the next page now.
22 Q. Thank you. Dr. Mandilovic, can you tell us what is the source of
23 this document, please?
24 A. This is a medical document from the Sarajevo State Hospital
25 MR. CANNATA: Thank you. Can we move to the next page.
1 Q. Sir, can you tell the Court the source of this document?
2 A. This is a medical document from the Sarajevo State Hospital
3 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, sir. Your Honours, may I have
4 one minute to consult with my colleagues?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, Mr. Cannata.
6 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. CANNATA:
9 Q. Sir, do you see a document in front of you?
10 A. I can.
11 Q. Can you tell us what is the source of this document?
12 A. This is a medical document from the Sarajevo State Hospital
13 MR. CANNATA: Can we move to the next page, please.
14 Q. Again, sir, can you tell us the source of this document, please?
15 A. Yet again, it's from the Sarajevo State Hospital
16 MR. CANNATA: Next document, please. 0036-0197.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This medical document comes from
18 the Sarajevo State Hospital
19 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, sir. Can we move to the next page,
21 Q. Sir, can you tell us what the source of this document is?
22 A. This medical document also originates in the Sarajevo State
24 Q. Thank you. And how can you make that conclusion? On what basis?
25 A. In the case of all these documents, and that includes the last
1 one that we have on the screen now, there are three elements that lead me
2 to this conclusion. There's the heading where it says the State Hospital
4 the State Hospital
5 of the hospital.
6 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
7 MR. CANNATA: Can we move to the next document, please. Your
8 Honours, I take that we already discussed the document. I'm happy to ask
9 again questions to the witness, but I take this is already evidence, that
10 the evidence of the witness is already recorded for these documents. Can
11 we move to the next one?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
13 MR. CANNATA: Thank you. Can we move to the next document.
14 Q. Sir, can you tell us what is the source of this document, please?
15 A. The State Hospital
17 Q. Thank you, sir.
18 MR. CANNATA: Can we please move to the next document, please.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell me what is the source of this
21 A. This medical document originates from the Sarajevo State
23 MR. CANNATA: Thank you. Can we now move to what should be the
24 last page, the next page. Thank you.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell us the source of this document?
1 A. The source of this medical document is the Sarajevo State
3 MR. CANNATA: Now, finally, to the last document of this exhibit,
4 can we move to the next page. Thank you.
5 Q. Sir, can you tell us the source of this document, please?
6 A. This document also originates from the Sarajevo State Hospital
7 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Dr. Mandilovic. Your Honours, at this
8 moment I will tender this document into an exhibit. Thank you.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The documents are admitted into evidence. May
10 they please be given an exhibit number.
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, they were already given P634, all of them.
13 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, I might need to seek your guidance
14 because this is -- I think it might be a required exercise, but I have a
15 number of documents. Now, if the Chamber's position is that the witness
16 go through each single record, then it might take a little bit longer
17 than the time estimated -- the Prosecution has expected for this witness.
18 I'm at your --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You unfortunately don't get guidance from the
20 Bench on how you prosecute your case. The Bench intervenes as and when
21 your colleague rises to object and deals with that situation at that time
22 according to how the Bench sees the situation. So we can't give you
23 guidance on what to do, really.
24 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might be of some assistance because I
1 certainly don't want to waste court time. That's not what my intent is
2 here. So with regard to the balance of the documents that I believe the
3 Prosecution intends to proffer through this witness, I believe if the
4 Prosecution can engage in some prefatory questioning of the witness with
5 regard --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, may I interrupt you. Let the
7 Prosecution deal with its case, and you rise up when you have to rise up.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well. Very well.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't tell him how to run his case. Let him run
10 his case the way he wants to run his case.
11 Mr. Cannata, may you proceed, please.
12 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
13 Can I have 65 ter 8692 on the screen, please.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: 8?
15 MR. CANNATA: 8692.
16 Q. Sir, do you see a document in front of you?
17 A. Yes, I do. This medical document originates from the clinical
18 centre of the university in Sarajevo
19 Q. And now can you tell the origin of this document?
20 A. The origin of this document is the clinical centre of the
21 university in Sarajevo
22 trauma or trauma centre.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are asking the question a second time, sir.
24 MR. CANNATA: Sorry. It's a mis-catch in the record. I said --
25 my question was how, how can you tell the origin of this document. It's
1 a follow-up question.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell on the basis of the
4 facsimile that we see in the right-hand corner and, also, the signature
5 of the doctor who signed the medical document.
6 MR. CANNATA:
7 Q. On account of your service with the State Hospital
8 medical records have you had an opportunity to come across issued by the
9 clinical centre of the university in Sarajevo, roughly speaking, of
11 A. I can't give you a number. However, there were many such
12 occasions. Patients came to both hospitals for checkups, and it often
13 happened that due to the major shelling of the town and the general alert
14 that had been sound, the patients couldn't choose where to come for
15 checkups. There were often situations that they started being treated at
16 one hospital and finished their treatment in the other due to their
17 inability to move about the town at any time.
18 Q. And when a patient from the clinical centre came to the State
19 Hospital, was treated -- sorry, let me strike this, and I'll rephrase the
21 The question will be, when a patient from the clinical centre
22 came to the State Hospital
23 prepared by the clinical centre? Did you have an opportunity to review
24 that file, those medical records?
25 A. Yes, yes, of course. Every patient is issued with their medical
1 documents, and when they present themselves to a different medical
2 institution, they have to present their medical documentation as well.
3 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, I have a number of 65 ters that deal
4 with medical records issued by the clinical centre. I'm going to ask the
5 witness to review, with your leave, the first page of these documents and
6 ask for the admission, unless there's any objection from the Defence.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are asking a very difficult question, sir. An
8 objection will come when you get to an objectionable stage. Just carry
9 on, just prosecute your case and --
10 MR. CANNATA: I will, Your Honour. Can we ask 86 -- actually,
11 can we go back to 8692.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't this 8692 that's on the screen?
13 MR. CANNATA: Yes. Yes, that's on the screen, and I will ask for
14 its admission into evidence, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. [Microphone not activated]
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to 65 ter 8692, to the extent that
17 the document is being offered through this witness as an accurate
18 reflection of records, there is no objection. To the extent this
19 document is being offered with regard to the truth of the contents that
20 is contained within these records, there is an objection.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata, any response?
22 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours. Yes, the Prosecution position is
23 that Dr. Mandilovic is for these documents entitled to speak only to the
24 -- to attest the accuracy and the validity and the fact that the
25 documents, the medical records are authentic copies issued by the
1 clinical centre. He will not give evidence as to the contents of the
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Understanding that they are not being offered for
4 that purpose, I have no objection.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
6 please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P635.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much. Can we please have 8693 on
10 the screen.
11 Q. Sir, do you see this document?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. Can you tell the Court its source?
14 A. This document originates from the clinical centre in Sarajevo
15 be more precise, from the orthopaedic ward.
16 MR. CANNATA: Can this document be exhibited, Your Honour?
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: If this document is being proposed under the same
18 conditions as last document, there is no objection. Once again, not to
19 speak the truth of the contents contained in the document itself.
20 MR. CANNATA: Yes, it is, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The document is admitted.
22 May it please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P636.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 MR. CANNATA: Can we move to 65 ter 8694. Thank you.
1 Q. Sir, do you see this document?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Can you tell us its source?
4 A. The source of this document is the clinical centre of the
5 university in Sarajevo
6 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, can this document be admitted into
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Under the same conditions, no objection.
9 MR. CANNATA: Yes, under the same conditions.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe if we clarify that so that we don't have Mr.
11 Guy-Smith standing up every time. He says he's got difficulty standing
13 MR. CANNATA: I will, Your Honour. If that may assist, I can
14 anticipate that the following 65 ter numbers --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are admitted for that purpose, all of them.
16 MR. CANNATA: Yes.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. So let's give this one an
18 exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: 8694 will be Exhibit P637, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MR. CANNATA: And the next 65 ter numbers will be under the same
22 conditions tendering into evidence are 8695, 8696, 8697, 8699, 8700,
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you tendering them?
25 MR. CANNATA: I tender these documents into evidence, Your
1 Honours. Thank you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those documents are admitted into evidence. May
3 they please be given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 8695 will be Exhibit P638;
5 65 ter 8696 will be Exhibit P639; 65 ter 8697 will be Exhibit P640;
6 65 ter 8699 will be Exhibit P641; 65 ter 8700 will be Exhibit P642; and
7 65 ter 8702 will be Exhibit P643.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Cannata.
9 MR. CANNATA: Yes, can we please have 65 ter 8703 on the screen,
11 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, let me ask you this: How long have you been a
12 medical doctor?
13 A. Almost 30 years now.
14 Q. Now, in performing your duties as a doctor, have you come across
15 forensic reports issued by the Forensic Institute of the Faculty of
16 Medicine in Sarajevo
17 A. Yes, I have, of course.
18 Q. Sir, do you see a document in front of you?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Can you tell the Court what this document is?
21 A. This document is an excerpt from the protocol of the Forensic
22 Institute of the School of Medicine
23 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us how can you establish that it
24 actually originates from the Forensic Institute of Medicine in Sarajevo
25 A. Because I can see in the left upper corner the name of the
1 faculty of medicine, the forensic institute, the date, and in the
2 right-hand corner I can see the signature of the forensic specialist who
3 is a pathologist and also a professor of the School of Medicine
4 University of Sarajevo
5 Q. Throughout your experience as a doctor with the State Hospital
6 have you come across similar documents to this one?
7 A. Of course. Of course.
8 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, I will move this document into
9 evidence. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: With the same condition as the previous
12 documents, there would be no objection, which is that he is not -- these
13 documents are not being offered for the truth of the contents contained
15 MR. CANNATA: Same conditions as before, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. May we have an Exhibit number, please.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P644, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, I see the clock, and I have no
20 further questions for this witness.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it then be a convenient time to take the
23 Doctor, I'm sorry to do this to you. This is the end of the day
24 for this court, so we'll have to continue tomorrow at quarter past 2.00
25 in the afternoon. You are warned not to discuss the case with anybody
1 now that you are still in the witness box, not even with your lawyer,
2 until you have finished testifying. The case stands adjourned to
3 tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the same courtroom II. Court adjourned.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.
5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 5th day of
6 March, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.