Page 4461
1 Wednesday, 18 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everyone in and around the
7 courtroom.
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
10 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
11 The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 May we have the appearances for today, starting with the
14 Prosecution.
15 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
16 Counsel. Mark Harmon, Salvatore Cannata, and Carmela Javier for the
17 Prosecution.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 And for the Defence.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. Good
21 afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom. Mr. Perisic is
22 represented in the courtroom today by our legal assistants,
23 Milos Androvic, Tina Drolec, case manager Daniela Tasic, and his Defence
24 counsel are Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith and Novak Lukic.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.
Page 4462
1 Good afternoon, Mr. Randall.
2 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do know you know this. But I just wanted to
4 remind you once again to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
5 else but the truth as you undertook at the beginning of your testimony.
6 THE WITNESS: I understand that.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 Mr. Harmon.
9 WITNESS: BRETTON RANDALL [Resumed]
10 Examination by Mr. Harmon: [Continued]
11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I have reorganised the presentation
12 that I had intended to present today. I had organised various schedules
13 in various thematic binders. In order to be more efficient, I propose
14 that we proceed in the way we proceeded at the beginning of yesterday's
15 sessions. There are a series of schedules and that I will identify the
16 schedules which I have asked to be distributed to Your Honours and to
17 counsel and to the witness. There are nine schedules that relate to
18 personnel files, and then there are other schedules on different topics.
19 But if we could proceed in that manner first, and then I will proceed,
20 follow that up by showing exemplars of various types of documents.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Harmon.
22 MR. HARMON: Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Randall, in front you there is a series of schedules. The
24 first is Beara personnel file. Could you examine that, please, and
25 inform us whether the provenance of each of those documents listed there
Page 4463
1 is accurate.
2 A. That is accurate.
3 MR. HARMON: I would ask that each of the items on the schedule
4 then be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.
5 MR. LUKIC: For all personnel files given to us, including the
6 last one which is Pandurevic, generally we have no objection.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Including Pandurevic.
8 Mr. Harmon, wouldn't you then, on those personnel files proceed
9 the way we did yesterday with the whole lot of them? And we get --
10 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm happy to do. Let me just identify
11 them.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okey-doke.
13 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, then the items that are in the
14 personnel files, they are the Celeketic personnel file, the Gvero
15 personnel file, the Krstic personnel file, the Mladic personnel file, the
16 Mrksic personnel file, Obrenovic personnel file, and the Popovic
17 personnel file, and the Sladojevic personnel file.
18 Those are the personnel files. And I would ask that each of the
19 items in there be given an exhibit number and the shaded items be
20 admitted under seal.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And am I to understand, Mr. Harmon, that there are
22 two Mrksic personnel files? There's one before Mladic and another after.
23 MR. HARMON: That should not be the case, Your Honour. There
24 should be one. It should go in order of Celeketic, Gvero, Krstic,
25 Mladic, Mrksic, Obrenovic. So there should be one Mrksic personnel file.
Page 4464
1 I'm not sure why Your Honour received two. It is obviously an error.
2 The Mrksic personnel file starts with 05016 at the upper
3 left-hand corner. It's one page; it ends with a protected document at
4 the bottom.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, -- sorry. I beg your pardon. It's -- yeah,
6 no, no, sorry. My mistake.
7 Madam Registrar, all those documents listed in all those
8 schedules are admitted, on condition that the shaded parts are admitted
9 under seal. May it please be given an exhibit number, at your
10 convenience.
11 You may proceed, Mr. Harmon.
12 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Randall, the next schedule that is in front of you is
14 entitled Pandurevic Prosecution file. Could you examine that and tell us
15 if the provenance identified in each of those items is accurate.
16 A. That is accurate.
17 MR. HARMON: I would ask that each of those items be given an
18 exhibit number and the two shaded items in the schedule be placed under
19 seal.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's just give your learned colleague an
21 opportunity. It looks like he is talking to those instructing him.
22 MR. LUKIC: No objection, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
24 Madam Registrar, those are all admitted in the Pandurevic
25 Prosecution file; the shaded ones under seal.
Page 4465
1 Yes.
2 MR. HARMON:
3 Q. Mr. Randall, then, if we could turn to the next schedule,
4 entitled appointments and transfers. Can you examine that, please.
5 A. That is accurate.
6 MR. HARMON: I would request that each of these items receive an
7 exhibit number, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In relation to this group of
10 documents, the group challenges the authenticity and suggests that the
11 following documents be just marked for identification: 05515, 05538,
12 05568, 05573, 05583, 07962, and 08889.
13 As for the remaining tendered documents, we have no objections
14 for them being accepted.
15 MR. HARMON: I have no objection to that, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 Madam Registrar, if you could admit all those documents and mark
18 for identification those mentioned by Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. HARMON:
20 Q. Mr. Randall, could you look at the next schedule entitled
21 "Promotions."
22 A. That is accurate.
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I would ask that each of these items
24 receive an exhibit number.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In relation to this group of
Page 4466
1 documents, the Defence proposes that the following documents be marked
2 for identification. Those are 5502, 5503, 5584, and 5504.
3 As for the remaining documents, we have no objections to them
4 being admitted, with a proviso that in our view, in our understanding,
5 the description of the documents that we can see in the tables does not
6 correspond to the actual contents of these documents. We just wanted you
7 to be aware of this, but that doesn't mean that we are challenging these
8 documents.
9 MR. HARMON: No objection to that, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 Madam Registrar, can you admit all documents and mark for
12 identification those mentioned.
13 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
14 MR. HARMON:
15 Q. Mr. Randall, could you turn to the table, "Croatian intelligence
16 reports."
17 A. That is accurate.
18 MR. HARMON: I would ask that each of those items receive an
19 exhibit number, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The Defence proposes that the entire
22 group of these documents be marked for identification for the time being.
23 We challenge the authenticity of these documents, given their form and
24 given the provenance.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
Page 4467
1 MR. HARMON: I have no objection, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please admit the entire documents and
3 mark them all for identification.
4 MR. HARMON:
5 Q. Mr. Randall, the next schedule is entitled "Coordination."
6 A. That is accurate.
7 MR. HARMON: Could each of these items, Your Honour, receive an
8 exhibit number.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In relation to two documents from
10 this list, we suggest that they just be marked for identification. Those
11 are documents 8778 and 5483.
12 In negotiations with Mr. Harmon, we objected to the title of
13 these documents. We suggested that they be titled "information," and I
14 think that Mr. Harmon did concede that they would look into giving a more
15 appropriate title to these documents.
16 MR. HARMON: Well, I certainly apologise if that's the case. I'm
17 happy to call them "information," Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. For the time being they are
19 called "coordination." You can rest assured, Mr. Lukic, the Trial
20 Chamber is not going to check whether the documents are coordinated. We
21 are just going to look at the documents themselves and not the list --
22 and they will be called "information" as and when the labelling has been
23 changed. Thank you so much.
24 Madam Registrar, will you admit the entire documents and mark for
25 identification the two that are mentioned.
Page 4468
1 MR. HARMON:
2 Q. Mr. Randall, the next schedule is one deferred from yesterday.
3 It is entitled "VRS Main Staff intelligence report/information to VJ
4 General Staff intelligence administration."
5 A. That's accurate.
6 MR. HARMON: I would ask that each of the items be given an
7 exhibit number and that the one shaded item be placed under seal.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to 01154, 05554, and 05555, we would
9 ask they be marked for identification. The balance we have no objection
10 to.
11 MR. HARMON: No objection, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, can you admit all those, mark the
13 shaded one -- mark it under -- admit it under seal, rather, and those are
14 the ones that are mentioned by Mr. Guy-Smith, marked for identification.
15 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
16 MR. HARMON:
17 Q. The final list, Mr. Randall, is entitled "VJ collegium minutes."
18 Could you examine that, please.
19 A. That is accurate.
20 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, you'll notice on this page, starting at
21 page 3, there some of these VJ collegium minutes that were not on
22 Mr. Randall's master list, but in discussions with the Defence they have
23 no objection to these being added to the schedule. We would ask that
24 each of these items be given an exhibit number.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are having no reaction?
Page 4469
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. We did not object to have them
2 put on the list of the tendered document. However, the Defence suggest
3 that all of these documents be marked for identification because we
4 challenge their authenticity.
5 MR. HARMON: We have no objection to that, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 Madam Registrar, will you admit all those documents and mark them
8 all for identification.
9 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
10 MR. HARMON: That concludes the schedules, Your Honour. And now
11 I would like to proceed with some exemplars. If I could have 65 ter
12 1084 --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your colleague is on his feet. [Microphone not
14 activated]
15 MR. HARMON: Oh, I'm sorry.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: There was one other schedule from yesterday which
17 had been identified as miscellaneous which we promised we would revert to
18 you today about.
19 MR. HARMON: That's fine. I was under the assumption that it had
20 been admitted yesterday. But let me check. And I will go through these
21 exemplars, and I will quickly check on the status of that schedule.
22 Thank you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
24 MR. HARMON: And if could I have 65 ter 1804. And I'm interested
25 in putting on the screen, ET 04228341. I'm interested in page 2 of the
Page 4470
1 English, and I believe that is page 10 of the B/C/S.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm slightly lost, Mr. Harmon. You're using a
3 method we haven't used so far. What do we write? Do we write 1804, or
4 do we write ET 04228341?
5 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry. I have even called out the wrong number.
6 On the screen it says 1804. I intended to put up 1084.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have 1084 on my notepad, yes.
8 MR. HARMON: Yes. Alright.
9 And then I would ask the Registrar to turn to a particular page
10 in that exhibit, which is -- I can identify by the translation number in
11 the upper right-hand corner, which is 0 -- is page 2 of the English is
12 what I'm looking for.
13 And this is found at page 51 of the master list.
14 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before Mr. Randall does that, I don't see a
16 correction of this 65 ter number on the screen. I would like to like see
17 the stenographer typing 1084 instead of 1804, because there is no way of
18 correcting this once we have gone.
19 You may proceed.
20 MR. HARMON:
21 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify document that is before you?
22 A. Yes, this is a page from a the Yugoslav army personnel file
23 related to Radislav Krstic. And it was received from the government of
24 Serbia
25 MR. HARMON: And if this -- Your Honour, I'd ask that the whole
Page 4471
1 document -- I tender the whole file of 1084, even though have I only
2 shown one page of that document, I would ask that the whole document be
3 admitted into evidence.
4 MR. LUKIC: No objection, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The whole document may be
6 admitted and be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1893.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MR. HARMON: Then the next document, Your Honours,
10 Madam Registrar, is 65 ter 7959, please. That's found at page 157 of the
11 master list.
12 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify document 7959, please.
13 A. This is order number 5-335 of the chief of the personnel
14 administration of the General Staff of the Yugoslav army dated
15 26 September 1994
16 chief Major-General Dusan Zoric, and that was received from the
17 government of the Republic of Serbia
18 Assistance 1593.
19 MR. HARMON: I would ask, Your Honour, this receive an exhibit
20 number.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have no objections, Your Honour.
22 I'm just worried that we might encounter a problem. Previously the
23 entire dossier of Mr. Krstic was admitted in the previous exhibit, and I
24 think that this is also part of that file, of Mr. Krstic, and now I'm
25 worried that we are duplicating the documents. I don't know whether we
Page 4472
1 could just give one exhibit number to the entire file. Other than that,
2 I have no objections.
3 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I believe this is a separate document.
4 This is a document that is -- while it identifies General Krstic and
5 while reference is made in the previous exhibit to this particular order
6 number, this document 7959 is a document that identifies the transfer --
7 93 officers who is were transferred and appointed to the 30th Personnel
8 Centre.
9 So this is a separate document with people other than
10 General Krstic on it. And I don't believe this whole document is found
11 in General Krstic's personnel file.
12 So we're asking for a separate number on this document.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't believe or you --
14 MR. HARMON: I don't believe, Your Honour -- [Overlapping
15 speakers] ...
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- or you're concern?
17 MR. HARMON: Well, I'm not certain. But I -- quite -- quite
18 confident that in General Krstic's personnel file, there is not going to
19 be the appointment and transfer orders for 93 other officers.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. If, indeed, it is a duplicate, it may be
21 just that one duplicate. We'll admitted that and give it an exhibit
22 number, Madam Registrar, please.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will Exhibit P1894, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That's the whole document,
25 Madam Registrar.
Page 4473
1 MR. HARMON: If I could have 65 ter 7958.01 on the monitor, and
2 this is found at page 157 of the master list.
3 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this particular document and
4 identify its provenance, please.
5 A. This is it order --
6 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry. Could we go into private session. And
7 this should not be displaced publicly.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
9 [Private session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
13 May the blind please be drawn.
14 MR. HARMON:
15 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document, please, and its
16 provenance.
17 A. This is order number 5-76/1 of the chief of personnel
18 administration of the General Staff of the Yugoslav army, dated
19 9 February 1994
20 The provenance of the document is it was provided by the
21 government of the Republic of Serbia
22 Assistance 1593-B.
23 MR. HARMON: I would ask that this be given an exhibit number and
24 placed under seal, Your Honour.
25 MR. LUKIC: No objection.
Page 4474
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted into evidence. And may it please
2 be given an exhibit number, Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will Exhibit P1895.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 MR. HARMON: If it could be placed under seal, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal, I'm sorry, Madam Registrar.
7 MR. HARMON: If we could go into public session.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
13 MR. HARMON: The next exhibit, Madam Registrar, is 5127, which is
14 found at page 73 of the master list.
15 Q. Mr. Randall, can you examine that document and identify it, first
16 of all, and then tell us the provenance of this document.
17 A. These are minutes from the official talk about the transfer to
18 the VRS, indicating it was recorded on the 11th of September, 1994, and
19 it was provided by the authorities of Republika Srpska.
20 MR. HARMON: Could this, Your Honours, be given an exhibit
21 number.
22 MR. LUKIC: No objection.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It may.
24 May we please give a number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will Exhibit P1896, Your Honours.
Page 4475
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
3 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 7863. What I'm interested in,
4 Madam Registrar, is the page with the ERN number 06118717.
5 Q. Mr. Randall, this is found at page 138 of the master list.
6 Mr. Randall, can you identify this document, please.
7 A. Yes. This is a page from the Yugoslav army personnel file
8 related to Colonel Dragan Obrenovic. It was provided by the government
9 of the Republic of Serbia
10 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I would ask that the whole personnel
11 file receive an exhibit number.
12 MR. LUKIC: No objection.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the whole personnel file be given an exhibit
14 number, as it is being admitted.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will Exhibit P1897, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. HARMON: The next exhibit is Prosecution Exhibit -- 65 ter
18 542. This is it not on the master list, Your Honour. This was a
19 document that counsel and I discussed. I can inform the Chamber of the
20 source of this document. This was seized from the Zvornik Brigade on the
21 6th of March, 1998, and there's no objection to this document being shown
22 at this point in time, Your Honour.
23 So if I could have this on the screen, and Mr. Randall could
24 identify it.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
Page 4476
1 MR. LUKIC: I confirm, Your Honour. No objection.
2 THE WITNESS: 542?
3 MR. HARMON:
4 Q. Yes, this is 542. Yes, sir. It will not on the master list,
5 Mr. Randall. I have identified the source of the document, and the
6 parties are agreement on 542.
7 A. [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 Q. [Overlapping speakers] ... I'm not going to ask you that
9 question. But can you identify the document that's on the screen in
10 front of you?
11 A. In the sense that it looks like an order number 3-4 by the Chief
12 of the General Staff of the Yugoslav army, dated 7 January 1994, related
13 to Lazar Pejic.
14 MR. HARMON: And could we go to the last page of this document.
15 Q. Then, Your Honour, I would ask that this document be marked as an
16 exhibit.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Trial Chamber notes that prior to
18 identification of the document by Mr. Randall, Mr. Lukic had indicated
19 that the Defence has no objection. The document is admitted.
20 May it please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will Exhibit P1898, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 MR. HARMON: The next exhibit, if we could have 879 on the
24 screen. That's found at page 45 of the master list.
25 And, Madam Registrar, the page I'm interested in is 04223207.
Page 4477
1 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this portion of the file.
2 A. This is a portion of the Yugoslav army personnel file related to
3 Milan
4 Montenegro
5 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I would ask that the whole personnel
6 file be given an exhibit number.
7 MR. LUKIC: No objection.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then, Madam Registrar, the whole personnel
9 file is admitted into. May it please be given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will Exhibit P1899, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, ma'am.
12 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
13 MR. HARMON: The next exhibit is 65 ter 7926. It's found at
14 page 155 of the master list.
15 Mr. Randall, can you identify this document, please, and its
16 source.
17 A. This is a decree the President of the Federal Republic
18 Yugoslavia
19 by the government of the Republic of Serbia
20 Assistance 1318.
21 MR. HARMON: I would as that this be given an exhibit number,
22 Your Honour.
23 MR. LUKIC: No objection.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
25 number.
Page 4478
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will Exhibit P1900, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
3 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
4 MR. HARMON: Can I go into private session, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
6 [Private session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
10 MR. HARMON: I'm interested in 65 ter 1083, and, in particular, I
11 am
12 It was -- 8234 is the page I'm interested in.
13 Madam Registrar, if could you go to page 5 of this document in
14 the English. Yes, that's the page.
15 Could you go to page 8 in the B/C/S.
16 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this particular document?
17 A. Yes. This is it a page from the VJ Yugoslav army personnel file
18 related to Ratko Mladic. And it was provided by the government of Serbia
19 and Montenegro
20 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I would ask that the whole personnel
21 file be admitted under seal.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Are you referring to the entire
23 personnel file of the -- Mr. Mladic or just the pages that you're
24 showing, Mr. Harmon?
25 MR. HARMON: The whole personnel file.
Page 4479
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The whole personnel file is admitted. May it
3 please be given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will Exhibit P1901, under seal,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar. Under seal,
7 indeed.
8 MR. HARMON: The next document is 65 ter 607, which is found at
9 page 35 of the master list.
10 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document and its source.
11 A. Yes. This is an extract of a decree issued by the President of
12 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, dated 16 June 1994, concerning
13 Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic. And it was received from the government
14 of Serbia
15 MR. HARMON: I would request, Your Honour, this receive an
16 exhibit number and be placed under seal.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection. However, I have a
18 reservation, that this may be another document that is part of a
19 personnel file. If not, then we're okay.
20 In any case I do not object to the admission.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, the entire document is admitted.
22 May you please give it an exhibit number under seal.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1902, under seal,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
Page 4480
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 You may proceed, Mr. Harmon.
7 MR. HARMON:
8 Q. Mr. Randall --
9 MR. HARMON: If we could have Prosecution Exhibit 488, that's
10 Prosecution 65 ter number 488 on the screen, and that's found at page 26
11 of the master list.
12 Mr. Randall, can you identify this document, please, and its
13 provenance.
14 A. This is an extract of a decree issued by the President of the
15 Republika Srpska, dated 28 June 1994
16 General Ratko Mladic. And it was received by the OTP by the authorities
17 of Republika Srpska.
18 MR. HARMON: I would ask that this receive an exhibit number,
19 Your Honour.
20 MR. LUKIC: No objection.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry.
23 The document is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
24 number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1903, Your Honours.
Page 4481
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 MR. HARMON: The next is 65 ter 8770, found at page 198 on the
3 master list.
4 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this particular document, please,
5 and its provenance.
6 A. This is order number 10-116 by the chief of General Staff of the
7 Yugoslav army dated 6 August 1997
8 Beara, bearing the name Colonel General Momcilo Perisic, received from
9 the government of the Republic of Serbia
10 Assistance 947.
11 MR. HARMON: Could we scroll down on the Cyrillic copy, and could
12 we turn to the second page of the English copy. Could you go all the way
13 down to the bottom, just to ...
14 I'm sorry, could you go to the next page of the English, the
15 third page, I'm sorry.
16 And could this document be given an exhibit number, Your Honours.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We don't object to the admission of
18 this document, although it doesn't contain Mr. Perisic's signature. I
19 believe that Mr. Randall mentioned that in his statement. This is a copy
20 of the original document that bears a stamp, and that's why we do not
21 object its admission.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. It's admitted. May it please be given
23 an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1904, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
Page 4482
1 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
2 MR. HARMON: May we go into private session, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
4 MR. HARMON: And could we have ...
5 [Private session]
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 MR. HARMON: Could we have 65 ter 608 on the screen. That's
11 found at page 35 of the master list.
12 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document and its provenance,
13 please.
14 A. Yes. This is a decree issued by the President of the Federal
15 Republic of Yugoslavia
16 26 Generals bearing the name President Vojislav Kostunica, provided by
17 the government of Serbia
18 Assistance 835.
19 MR. HARMON: Could this receive an exhibit number and be placed
20 under seal, Your Honour.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not object the admission of this
22 document.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence under seal.
24 May it please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1905, under seal,
Page 4483
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
9 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 7841 on the screen. I'm
10 interested in page 06115818 of the English. If I haven't said, it is
11 found on page 134 of the master list.
12 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document as well as its
13 provenance.
14 A. This is an extract of a decree of the President of the Federal
15 Republic of Yugoslavia
16 Dusan Kovacevic bearing the name President Zoran Lilic, provided by the
17 government of the Republic of Serbia
18 Assistance 1560.
19 MR. HARMON: And I would ask that the whole file be given an
20 exhibit number, Your Honour.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The whole file is admitted into evidence. May it
23 please be given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1906, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
Page 4484
1 MR. HARMON: The next item is 65 ter 7839, and I'm interested in
2 06115577 of the English being displayed. That's found at page 133 of the
3 master list.
4 Could I have the English 06115577, please. Thank you.
5 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document, please, and its
6 source.
7 A. This is a Yugoslav army General Staff sector for recruitment
8 mobilisation and system issues, personnel administration, dated
9 23 January 1996
10 Major-General, provided by government of Republic of Serbia
11 Request for Assistance 1560.
12 MR. HARMON: I would request that the whole file be given an
13 exhibit number, Your Honour.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The whole file is admitted. May it please be
16 given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1907, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
20 MR. HARMON: The next exhibit is 65 ter 8387, please. It's found
21 at page 189 of the master list.
22 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document and its source.
23 A. This is a decree of the President of the Federal Republic
24 Yugoslavia
25 Milan Celeketic, bearing the name President Zoran Lilic, provided by the
Page 4485
1 government of the Republic of Serbia
2 Assistance 1560.
3 MR. HARMON: I would ask that this receive an exhibit number,
4 Your Honour.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May that please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1908, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
9 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 8388 on the screen. And that is
10 at page 189 of the master list.
11 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document, please, and its
12 source.
13 A. This is a decision issued by the Yugoslav army military post
14 number 1790, dated 30 December 1994
15 Milan Celeketic, bearing the name chief Major-General Dusan Zoric,
16 provided by the government of the Republic of Serbia
17 Request for Assistance 1560.
18 MR. HARMON: Could this receive an exhibit number, Your Honour.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
21 number, madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1909, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
25 MR. HARMON: Can I have 65 ter 8393 on the monitor, and that's
Page 4486
1 found at page 190 of the master list.
2 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document and its source,
3 please.
4 A. This is titled an Official Note of the interview with the Chief
5 of the General Staff of the Yugoslav army conducted with Major-General
6 Milan Celeketic bearing the name Colonel General Momcilo Perisic received
7 from the government of the Republic of Serbia
8 Assistance 1560.
9 MR. HARMON: I would as that this document receive an exhibit
10 number, please.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
13 number, Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1910, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
16 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
17 MR. HARMON: The next exhibit is 7857, and it is found at page
18 137 of the master list, and I am interested in the page 06117965 being
19 displayed.
20 THE WITNESS: Sorry, what page on the master list?
21 MR. HARMON: It should be 137. 7857 is the 65 ter number.
22 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document, please, and its
23 source.
24 A. This is a request for payment of special compensation for unused
25 annual leave from Milan Celeketic to military post 1790, Belgrade
Page 4487
1 Provided by the government of the Republic of Serbia
2 Request for Assistance 1560.
3 MR. HARMON: I would ask, Your Honour, that the whole file be
4 admitted, given an exhibit number.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted --
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Your Honour.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have just one general objection,
9 Your Honour, that this pertains to the matters which are outside of the
10 temporal scope of the indictment and also to the period between 1993 and
11 1995, which is something that was decided after the time-period covered
12 by the indictment.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: That objection that is covered by a previous
14 ruling. I admit.
15 Give an exhibit number, the entire document.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1911, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. HARMON: And, Your Honour I was interested in having the
19 whole file admitted, not just the single document.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I did say entire document, didn't I?
21 MR. HARMON: Okay, I -- since ...
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. If I didn't say so, I now say so.
23 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 MR. HARMON: Could I then have 8532 on the screen, and that is
Page 4488
1 found at page 194 of the master list.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: 85 ...
3 MR. HARMON: 32. Found at page 194 of the master list.
4 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document and its source,
5 please.
6 A. This is a copy of a decree of the President of the Federal
7 Republic of Yugoslavia
8 Lieutenant-General Milan Novakovic in the name of President Zoran Lilic,
9 provided by the government of the Republic of Serbia
10 Request for Assistance 1560.
11 MR. HARMON: I request an exhibit number, Your Honour, for this
12 item.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number for the entire document.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1912, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. HARMON: Could I have 8533 on the monitor, please, found at
19 195 of the master list.
20 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this particular document and its
21 source.
22 A. This is a Yugoslav army military post number 1790, Belgrade
23 decision, related to Lieutenant-General Mile Novakovic bearing the name
24 chief Major-General Zoric, provided by the government of the Republic of
25 Serbia
Page 4489
1 MR. HARMON: Could this receive an exhibit number, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted.
3 May it please be given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1913, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MR. HARMON: The next item is 8534, found at 195 of the master
7 list.
8 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document and its source.
9 A. Statement in the name of Lieutenant-General Mile Novakovic,
10 military post 9000 Knin, dated 16 September 1995, bearing the name
11 Lieutenant-General Mile Novakovic, provided by the government of the
12 Republic of Serbia
13 MR. HARMON: I would request that this receive an exhibit number,
14 Your Honour.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted.
17 May it please be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1914, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
20 MR. HARMON: Could I have 7867 on the monitor. That's found at
21 page 139 of the master list. What I want to do is display a number of
22 pages out of this particular exhibit number. So if we could start with
23 06119285, if we could display that page, firstly, on the list -- on the
24 monitor.
25 Q. Mr. Randall, since these all bear the same exhibit number, I'm
Page 4490
1 going to ask you the source at the end. But can you, first of all,
2 identify the document -- well, we don't have the -- we don't have the
3 B/C/S version yet on the monitor. I'm sorry.
4 A. In English I can identify the decree issued presidential decree
5 of the President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, dated
6 22 December 1994
7 government of the Republic of Serbia
8 Assistance 1560.
9 MR. HARMON: Could I have the page 9286 of that same exhibit on
10 the monitor, please.
11 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document.
12 A. Can you make it a little bit -- yeah, thank you.
13 It's a decision of the military post 1790, Belgrade, dated
14 30 December 1994
15 Major-General Dusan Zoric, again, provided in response to Request for
16 Assistance 1560 by the government of the Republic of Serbia
17 MR. HARMON: And finally if we could go to 06119263 of this same
18 exhibit, and I'm interested in page 3 of the English.
19 Could I have -- yes, that's the document in English. Could I
20 have the same document in B/C/S.
21 Q. Can you identify this particular document, Mr. Randall?
22 A. This is a statement bearing the name Major-General
23 Mirko Bjelanovic, dated 7 October 1995
24 disposal of the commander of the army of the Republika Srpska. That was
25 received also in response to Request for Assistance 1560 provided by the
Page 4491
1 government of the Republic of Serbia
2 MR. HARMON: And could 7867, the whole file be given an exhibit
3 number, Your Honour.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The whole file is admitted into evidence.
6 May it please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1915, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 493 on the monitor, please,
10 found at page 27 of the master list. And I would like to display two
11 pages of this, 04222982.
12 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document, please, and its
13 source.
14 A. This is a decree of the President of the Federal Republic
15 Yugoslavia
16 professional military service of Mile Mrksic, bearing the name President
17 Zoran Lilic, provided by the government of the Serbia and Montenegro
18 response Request for Assistance 590.
19 MR. HARMON: If we could look at one more page in this document.
20 It is 04222981.
21 Q. Again, Mr. Randall, can you identify the document.
22 A. This is a decision of the Yugoslav army military post number 1790
23 Belgrade
24 Major-General Dusan Zoric. That was also provided by the government of
25 Serbia
Page 4492
1 MR. HARMON: And, Your Honour, I would ask that this -- this
2 whole file be given an exhibit number and admitted.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Once again, I think that the entire
4 personnel file of Mr. Mrksic has already been admitted. If it is not a
5 duplication, we have no objection.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The entire file is admitted. May it please
7 be given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1916, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 MR. HARMON: And could I finally in this series of documents, and
11 we'll end with more document. It is 05018, which is found at page 70 of
12 the master list.
13 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document, please, and its
14 source.
15 A. It is a statement accepting termination of professional military
16 service, dated 7 October 1995
17 provided by the government of Serbia
18 Request for Assistance 590.
19 MR. HARMON: Could this be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
22 number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1917, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, this would be a convenient time to
Page 4493
1 break.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
3 We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.
4 Court adjourned.
5 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
8 MR. HARMON: If I could have 65 ter 8397 on the monitor. That's
9 found at page 190 of the master list.
10 Q. Mr. Randall, can you examine the document and identify it and
11 also identities provenance, please.
12 A. It's a request for the payment of unpaid salaries, bearing the
13 name Milan Celeketic, dated 24 May 2003
14 Belgrade
15 of Serbia
16 MR. HARMON: Could that receive an exhibit number, Your Honour.
17 MR. LUKIC: No objection.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted.
19 May it please be given an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1918, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
23 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 5638 on the monitor. And that
24 is found at page 103 of the master list.
25 Can you scroll up on the English, please. Yes, thank you.
Page 4494
1 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document and its source.
2 A. This is a decision, dated 11 October 2000, related to the
3 entitlement of Colonel General Ratko Mladic to receive salaries and
4 special compensation. That was issued in the name chief Colonel
5 Milan Biga, provided by the government of Serbia and Montenegro
6 response to Request for Assistance 1127-B.
7 MR. HARMON: Could this receive an exhibit number, Your Honour.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The general objection that we raised
9 so far, namely, that you said -- you ruled that this document is not
10 relevant because it pertains to the period after the one covered by the
11 indictment.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that what I ruled?
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Correct.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: And would it be coming back if it was already
15 ruled inadmissible?
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no. Perhaps we misunderstood
17 each other. This is a general objection, that you overruled. And our
18 socks that this document is outside of the temporal scope of the
19 indictment.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. I was just responding to
21 what I read on the screen.
22 Okay. It's admitted.
23 May it please be given an exhibit number, please.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1919, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
Page 4495
1 MR. HARMON: Could I have 1235 on the monitor. It is found at
2 page 58 of the master list. And the page I would like displayed is
3 0603-0673.
4 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document and its source,
5 please.
6 A. This is a decision -- I can't -- I can't state what the military
7 post is. It's dated 2 September 2000
8 at the military post 3001, regarding the recognition of the right to
9 salary and other payments, bearing the name chief Colonel Milan Biga.
10 And that was provided by the government of the Republic of Serbia
11 response to Request for Assistance 947.
12 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we would ask that the whole file be
13 given an exhibit number.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In relation to this document, we have
15 the same general objection we raised in relation to the previous
16 document, and we have no objection to the admittance of the personnel
17 file of Mr. Beara, if this is part of this entire document or perhaps it
18 belongs to some other document. We don't know.
19 MR. HARMON: This is part of the whole file, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 May I suggest, Mr. Lukic, in the interests of expediency and
22 expeditiousness that, we did talk of a global objection and a global
23 overruling, unless there is something else to add, let's not stand up,
24 Okay? That would be recognised.
25 It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit number, the
Page 4496
1 entire file.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1920, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
4 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
5 MR. HARMON: The next exemplar is 65 ter 8552, found at page 196
6 of the master list.
7 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document and its source,
8 please.
9 A. This is a decision of the military post 4001, Belgrade, dated
10 5 May, 1994
11 officer in charge Major-General Milan Celeketic, provided by the
12 government of the Republic of Serbia
13 Assistance 1344.
14 MR. HARMON: Could this receive an exhibit number, Your Honour.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
17 an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it a file or just this page?
20 MR. HARMON: It's a separate exhibit, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1921, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
25 MR. HARMON: Could I have 5192 on the monitor. It's found at
Page 4497
1 page 75 of the master list.
2 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document and its source,
3 please.
4 A. This is a decision of the military post 3001, Belgrade, dated
5 12 May 1994
6 conditions and allowances, bearing the name officer in charge Colonel
7 Mico Grubor, provided by government of the Serbia and Montenegro
8 response to Request for Assistance 548.
9 MR. HARMON: Could this, Your Honour, receive an exhibit number.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
12 number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1922, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
15 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
16 MR. HARMON: 65 ter 5641, which is found at page 103 of the
17 master list.
18 Could you scroll up on the English, please. Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document and its source.
20 A. This is a decision of the military post 3001, Belgrade, dated
21 24 February 2000
22 entitlement to receive special compensation, bearing the name chief
23 Colonel Milan
24 in response to Request for Assistance 1127-B.
25 MR. HARMON: Could this receive an exhibit number, Your Honour.
Page 4498
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it receive an exhibit number. May it please
2 be given a number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1923, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MR. HARMON: Could we go into private session.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
7 [Private session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
11 MR. HARMON: Could I have 1087 on the monitor. And the page I am
12 interested in is page 58 of the English. That is at ET 04228656, and the
13 page I'm interested in displaying, page 58, is 04228713.
14 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document and its source.
15 A. That was 1087, was it?
16 Q. 1087, found on the master list at page 51.
17 A. It's a decision of the military post 3001, Belgrade, dated
18 28 November 2001
19 service for retirement, provided by the government of Serbia and
20 Montenegro
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon, is this the B/C/S version of the
22 English version?
23 MR. HARMON: It doesn't appear to be that, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it possible for to us have the B/C/S version?
25 Do we have a B/C/S version?
Page 4499
1 MR. HARMON: There is a B/C/S version. I don't have a copy of it
2 with me, Your Honour, in hard copy.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: But on e-court, do you know whether it was
4 uploaded?
5 MR. HARMON: Let me check with Ms. Javier.
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 MR. HARMON: Ms. Javier is going to check, Your Honour, and if we
8 could come back to this, I'll return to this document --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed.
10 MR. HARMON: Okay. Then if we could turn -- we'll defer on this
11 document if we can, Your Honour. And if I could turn to the nest
12 document. If we can go into public session, then.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
14 [Open Session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
17 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
18 MR. HARMON: Could I have 5640 on the monitor, please. That is
19 found at page 103 of the master list.
20 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document and its source,
21 please.
22 A. This is a decision of the military post 3001, Belgrade, dated
23 3 March 2000
24 Ratko Mladic, Colonel General, bearing the name authorised officer
25 Colonel Milan
Page 4500
1 Montenegro
2 MR. HARMON: Could this receive an exhibit number, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's is admitted.
4 May it please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1924, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 MR. HARMON: I would like to call up 7867. This has previously
8 been, I believe, exhibited.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, it is P1195.
10 MR. HARMON: Could I have P1195 on the monitor. And the page I'm
11 interested in is 06119268, and I'm interested in page 2.
12 Q. Mr. Randall, can you --
13 MR. HARMON: I'm not sure that this is the same -- this doesn't
14 appear be to the same document in B/C/S that it appears in the English.
15 This appears to be same document, Your Honour.
16 Q. So, Mr. Randall, can you identify this document.
17 A. This is a request for a certificate on participation in war,
18 bearing the name retired Major-General Mirko Bjelanovic, dated
19 3 March 1999
20 provided by the government of Republic of Serbia
21 for Assistance 1560.
22 MR. HARMON: Could I now move to another page, the page with
23 06119270. It's part of the same 7867.
24 Q. Can you just identify the document, Mr. Randall. We've had the
25 source already.
Page 4501
1 A. It's a statement given by Lieutenant-Colonel Milan Miodrag,
2 concerning Major-General Mirko Bjelanovic and his participation as a
3 professional officer in the Yugoslavia
4 MR. HARMON: And, finally, in this series could I turn to
5 06119268. It is page 1 of the English.
6 Q. Again, Mr. Randall, can you just identify this document.
7 A. It is a General Staff of the Yugoslav army sector for recruitment
8 mobilisation and system issues, personnel administration, document dated
9 4 March 1999
10 a particular area, bearing the name Colonel Milos Pavlovic.
11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, this already has an exhibit number
12 already, so I --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. I was going ask the question, actually
14 why do we go through these documents if they are already admitted as
15 Exhibit 1915.
16 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I intended to just show some exemplars
17 from the exhibit, and I realized afterwards in my presentation that this
18 had been previously been exhibited, so ...
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
20 MR. HARMON: If I could turn to another document, then,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can.
23 MR. HARMON: If I could have 65 ter 8954 on the monitor, and
24 that's found at page 205 of the master list.
25 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this particular document and its
Page 4502
1 source.
2 A. This is a Federal Republic of Yugoslavia cabinet of the Chief of
3 the General Staff of the Yugoslav army, dated 24 March 1995. It's an
4 order on the formation of a coordinating staff for assistance to the 40th
5 Personnel Centre, bearing the name Chief of the General Staff of the
6 Yugoslav army Lieutenant-General Momcilo Perisic. And that was provided
7 by the government of the Republic of Serbia
8 Assistance 1350.
9 MR. HARMON: If we could go to the next page of the B/C/S version
10 and to the bottom showing the signature block, and same in the English
11 version, which would be on page 4.
12 And if this could be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
15 an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1925, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
18 MR. HARMON: Could I have 539 on the monitor, please. It's
19 page 32 of the master list.
20 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this particular document and its
21 source.
22 A. It is a report of the Serbian army of Krajina Main Staff security
23 department dated 1/7/1994
24 western Bosnia
25 to Request for Assistance 463.
Page 4503
1 MR. HARMON: I would ask that this receive an exhibit number.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted.
4 May it please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1926, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
8 MR. HARMON: Could I have 8081 on the monitor, please. Page 174
9 of the master list.
10 Q. Can you identify this document, please, Mr. Randall, and its
11 source.
12 A. It's an authorisation of the General Staff of the army of
13 Republika Srpska, dated 20 July 1998
14 Yugoslav army, sector for education training scientific research and
15 publishing and to personnel administration concerning Vinko Pandurevic.
16 And that was provided by the government of the Republic of Serbia
17 response to Request for Assistance 1582.
18 MR. HARMON: Could this receive an exhibit number, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does it -- it's is admitted.
20 May it please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1927, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MR. HARMON: Could I have 8080 on the monitor. This is found at
24 page 174 of the master list.
25 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document.
Page 4504
1 A. This is a decision of the national Defence school administration
2 of the Yugoslav army, dated 21 July 1998
3 investigation against Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, bearing the name chief of
4 class naval captain Bosko Antic. And it was provided by the government
5 of the Republic of Serbia
6 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I would request a number for this item.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
8 number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1928, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 MR. HARMON: Could I have 8079 on the monitor. That's at
12 page 173 in the master list.
13 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document and its source,
14 please.
15 A. This is a Yugoslav army military post number 2102, decision dated
16 7 August 1998
17 against Vinko Pandurevic, Colonel. Bearing the name Major-General
18 Professor Sinisa Borovic, provided by the government of the Republic of
19 Serbia
20 MR. HARMON: I would request this receive an exhibit number,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
23 number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1929, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
Page 4505
1 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
2 MR. HARMON: Could I have 8704 on the monitor, and found at
3 page 173 of the master list.
4 Q. Mr. Randall, do you --
5 MR. HARMON: Just wait until it shows up on the monitor.
6 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document and its source.
7 A. This is a motion to indict in the name of the military
8 disciplinary prosecutor at the General Staff of the Yugoslav army first
9 instance military disciplinary Prosecution number 3/99, dated
10 19 March 1999
11 disciplinary prosecutor Major Radovan Lavos, provided by the government
12 of the Republic of Serbia
13 MR. HARMON: Could this receive an exhibit number, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
15 number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1930, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
18 MR. HARMON: Could I have 8075 on the monitor, please, found at
19 page 173 of the master list.
20 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document again and its source.
21 A. This is a military disciplinary court at the General Staff of the
22 army of Yugoslavia
23 disciplinary case against the accused, Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko
24 Pandurevic, and that was provided by the government of the Republic of
25 Serbia
Page 4506
1 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'd as that this be given an exhibit
2 number.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I know that the [indiscernible]
5 schedule of the Vinko Pandurevic case was admitted. My question is this:
6 Are this document and the previous document parts of that schedule, if
7 they are, then I don't have any special objection.
8 MR. HARMON: These are not part of the previous schedule,
9 Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. If they're not, then they are admitted.
11 May it please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1931, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 Mr. Harmon.
15 MR. HARMON: The final document in this series is 65 ter 8073
16 which is found at page 172 of the master list.
17 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document and its source,
18 please.
19 A. This is a judgement of the military disciplinary court of the
20 General Staff of the Yugoslav army number 3/99, dated 14 October 1999,
21 dismissing charges against Vinko Pandurevic. And that was provided by
22 the government of the Republic of Serbia
23 Assistance 1582.
24 MR. HARMON: I would request that this receive an exhibit number,
25 Your Honour.
Page 4507
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted.
2 May it please be given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1932, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 MR. HARMON: Turning to a new type of document.
6 Q. Mr. Randall --
7 MR. HARMON: Madam Registrar, if I could have 1201 on the
8 monitor. That's found at page 55 of the master list.
9 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document, please, and its
10 source.
11 A. It is an intelligence administration report dated 10/7/1995
12 Zagreb
13 chief rear admiral Davor Domazet, provided by the Republic of Croatia
14 response to Request for Assistance 673.
15 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could receive an exhibit number.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As for the previous document in the
18 group, we would like this document to be marked for identification.
19 MR. HARMON: No objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted.
21 May it please be given an exhibit number and be marked for
22 identification.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P1933, marked
24 for identification.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
Page 4508
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MR. HARMON: If I could return to the document that we had -- we
3 deferred a moment ago. It is 65 ter 1087.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.
5 MR. HARMON: We had page 58 of the English, and I'm informed the
6 B/C/S at e-court is on page 94. It has ERN number 04228692. The page in
7 the English is page 58; it is at 04228713.
8 Q. Mr. Randall, this is found at page 51 on the master list. Can
9 you identify the document and its source, please.
10 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry, can we go into private session on this
11 document.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
13 [Private session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it possible to -- to redact what is on the
16 e-court? Because this document has been on the screen for some time
17 before --
18 MR. HARMON: Yes, I understand, Your Honour. If it can be
19 possible, I would ask that it be done, Your Honour. If it cannot, then
20 -- then an error has been made, and I regret it.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm advised it was not shown to the public. It's
23 your luck.
24 MR. HARMON: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this particular document and its
Page 4509
1 source.
2 A. This is a decision of the military post 3001, Belgrade, dated
3 28 November 2001
4 Vujadin Popovic, Colonel, bearing the name Milan Biga, provided by the
5 government of Serbia
6 Assistance 793.
7 MR. HARMON: I would ask that the whole file be given an exhibit
8 number and that it be placed under seal, Your Honour.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Today on page 3, line 16, we admitted
10 65 ter document under the same number, 1087. This was the
11 Vujadin Popovic personnel file.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to tell us what exhibit number it was
13 given, Mr. Lukic?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It was decided that the Registry
15 would assign it a number later. This is with the group of personnel
16 files that was presented at the very beginning of today's session.
17 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the whole file was not on that
18 schedule. This is the whole file. There are other items on the schedule
19 that were not 1087.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. In fact, they were not given numbers those
21 files. They were given headings. Are you talking about the personnel
22 files?
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That's what I understood
24 earlier today, when, on page 3 ...
25 MR. HARMON: I can understand the source of confusion by
Page 4510
1 Mr. Lukic, Your Honour. This is the Popovic personnel file. These were
2 parts of the Popovic personnel file. The whole file is 1087.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I don't understand the system of the
4 Prosecution.
5 MR. HARMON: We made a mistake, Your Honour. It's as simple as
6 that. We tendered documents from -- that are identified as Popovic
7 personnel file, but this was not the complete personnel file; therefore,
8 we made a mistake when we identified this, and I --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do you propose to correct the mistake?
10 MR. HARMON: I would suggest, Your Honour, that 1087, which is
11 the whole file, be given a separate number, and that the items that are
12 listed in -- that have separate 65 ter numbers in the schedule that says
13 Popovic personnel file maintain separate exhibit numbers.
14 So --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And we're going read them twice over.
16 MR. HARMON: This is a distinct possibility, Your Honour. I'm
17 sorry, when I review this --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It looks like an almost certainty.
19 MR. HARMON: It looks like an almost certainty, Your Honour. In
20 trying to manage over a thousand exhibits, I apologise. We can try to
21 remedy this confusion later, but the whole file is 1087. And I can't say
22 at the moment that each one of these documents on, what is identified as
23 the Popovic personnel file schedule, come from the personnel file or do
24 not. That is where I cannot assist the Court at this point.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And thank you to you
Page 4511
1 Mr. Lukic for raising the point. We will admit this file in its entirety
2 under seal. And, Madam Registrar, should you -- and I know this is
3 really not your job, but should you come up with any duplication, please
4 do the necessary. I don't what the necessary is.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This file will be Exhibit P1934, under seal,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal, thank you so much.
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 4512
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
Page 4513
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 Once again, Mr. Randall, this brings us to the conclusion of your
3 testimony. We thank you very much for the time you have taken. We know
4 you are a busy person in another court. You are now excused. You may
5 stand down and travel back well.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
10 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I have a suggestion, and I have
11 discussed this my colleagues from the Defence. A large number of these
12 documents have been marked MFI
13 whether that designation should remain on the documents. What we intend
14 to do, is prepare a schedule to distribute amongst ourselves, and we will
15 review each of those documents to determine whether that designation
16 should remain or not remain.
17 I am confident there are some where the designation will remain,
18 and which submissions will have to be made by the parties to the Chamber.
19 We will try to resolve amongst ourselves the designations that we are
20 able to resolve, and then we will come back before Your Honours and make
21 submissions on the remaining documents.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Harmon. Obviously it is the hope
23 of the Bench that you can dissolve all of them.
24 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. I --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: So if that can be done, it will be much
Page 4514
1 appreciated. We will hear from you once you have discussed amongst
2 yourselves.
3 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. And that concludes the
4 presentation, Your Honour. I would ask that Mr. Cannata and I be
5 excused.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are excused.
7 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I suppose we are having a new team for the
9 Prosecution. It might, perhaps, place itself on record.
10 MR. THOMAS: Yes, Your Honours, for the balance of the afternoon,
11 Barney Thomas, Lorna Bolton, April Carter, and Carmela Javier for the
12 Prosecution.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 MR. THOMAS: Madam Carter will be leading the next witness,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
17 Good afternoon, Madam Carter.
18 MS. CARTER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. May it please the
19 Court, the Prosecution calls Witness Nedzib, Dozo.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, sir. May you please make the
23 declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Page 4515
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Dozo. You may sit down.
2 Yes, Madam Carter.
3 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 WITNESS: NEDZIB DOZO
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Examination by Ms. Carter:
7 Q. Mr. Dozo, will you please introduce yourself to the Court.
8 A. My name is Dozo Nedzib. I was born on 4th of May, 1958, in the
9 place called Batina, Pale municipality, Republic of Bosnia
10 Herzegovina
11 Q. During the war what job did you hold?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Dozo, were you involved in the war at all?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the war broke out, I came to
14 the police station in the Stari Grad municipality where I worked as a
15 policeman.
16 MS. CARTER: Thank you, sir.
17 Q. Prior to today, you have testify in the Dragomir Milosevic case.
18 Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And, for the record, Your Honour, the transcript of that
21 testimony of 14 March 2007
22 On Monday, your transcript was read back to you in a language you
23 understood. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you indicated that you had a few clarifications to that
Page 4516
1 transcript. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Specifically, you indicated at page 3680, line 21, where the name
4 D-a-r-t-e-l-j-e was incorrect, and it should read D-a-t-e-l-j-i. Is that
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You also indicated that you did not understand the translation at
8 page 3686, line 2, in which the English reads "to the house that was
9 shown us where billed Selmanovic." However, you were satisfied with the
10 further question and answer that that was clarified.
11 Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You also indicated at page 3688, line 22, that the word
14 "G-o-r-d-o-n-j" was incorrect and should be "G-r-d-o-n-j-a."
15 Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Lastly you indicated at page 3690 at line 3, the term "line of
18 sight" should have read "line of fire." Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. After those clarifications, if you were asked those same
21 questions today, would your answers be the same?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. CARTER: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter number 9422 into
24 evidence.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
Page 4517
1 given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1936, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
4 Yes, Madam Carter.
5 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Within that transcript, several exhibits were tendered through
7 you. First of all, your statement of 22 November 1995 was admitted as
8 P363, at page 3683, with clarifications regarding paragraph 8. With that
9 clarification, do you adopt that same statement here today?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter number
12 9420 into evidence.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, do we have the clarifications? Are
14 we going to be able see the clarifications when we look at the statement?
15 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, the clarifications are actually made
16 within the body of the D. Milosevic transcript on that page.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you were talking here about
18 clarifications to P363 which is his statement.
19 MS. CARTER: 363 is his statement. However when they tendered it
20 as a 92 ter package within the D. Milosevic case, they provided
21 clarification within the transcript.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much, ma'am.
23 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are we admitting? Are we admitting P363 of
25 Milosevic as an exhibit here? Or do have you a 65 ter number for this?
Page 4518
1 MS. CARTER: The 65 ter in this case is 9420.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: 9420. And you have tendered it.
3 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
5 number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1937, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 MS. CARTER:
9 Q. Further, your statement of 21 April 2005 was admitted as P364,
10 and that was done, again, at page 3683. However, during your proofing on
11 Monday, you indicated that had you a clarification to make with regards
12 to paragraph 8. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Specifically, you indicated that that paragraph should be
15 fully redacted. And in its place it should read:
16 "In August 1995, I heard a shell hit a street. A shell makes a
17 different sound when it hits a street rather than a building. Moments
18 later I arrived at the police station in Stari Grad which was 30 to 40
19 metres away. My supervisor advised me that a shell hit outside Markale
20 market.
21 "Two or three cars from the station went to the market to
22 transport the wounded. The market is outside our station's area, so I
23 was not involved in the technical investigation. I may have gone to the
24 market to assist at a later time, but all wounded had already been taken
25 away before I arrived. Later, we watched television footage of the dead
Page 4519
1 and wounded. I took some follow-up statements at a later date."
2 And I do apologise, Your Honour, I identified that as being a
3 replacement for paragraph 8. That should actually be a replacement for
4 paragraph 5.
5 Sir, with that clarification made, do you adopt that statement
6 here today?
7 A. I do.
8 MS. CARTER: I tender 65 ter number 9421 into evidence.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted. May it please be given an
10 exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1938, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MS. CARTER:
14 Q. Lastly, the on-site investigation report of 14 December 1994 was
15 also admitted as P367 at page 3693. Do you adopt that report as well
16 here today?
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter number 8614 into
19 evidence.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted.
21 May it please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1939, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
24 MS. CARTER: Before turning to the direct examination, I will
25 read out a summary of the witness's evidence:
Page 4520
1 Since 1992 Nedzib Dozo has been a police officer serving in the
2 old town area of Sarajevo
3 His evidence is related to his investigation into a large number
4 of crimes, including sniping and shelling incidents, as well as air
5 bombs.
6 Mr. Dozo will provide specific evidence related to the sniping
7 incident B-9 of 10 December 1994
8 Spicaste, S-p-i-c-a-s-t-a; second word, Stijena, S-t-i-j-e-n-a; as well
9 as the shelling incident A-4 of 22 December 1994, where two shells landed
10 in a flea market; as well as investigations of shelling predating but
11 relating to the shelling incident A-9 of 28 August 1995, colloquially
12 known as Markale II.
13 Q. Mr. Dozo, the last exhibit that we discussed with regard to your
14 Dragomir Milosevic testimony related to incident B-9 where an on-site
15 investigation was performed relating to a sniping victim,
16 Dervisa Selmanovic; is that correct?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm a bit taken by surprise because
19 we thought that this witness was a 92 ter witness, so unless there is
20 some special reasons there should be any examination-in-chief. My
21 learned friend has not explained why she wants to examine in chief this
22 witness, so I wonder whether there is some deviation from the rule that
23 is well established.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
25 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, as Defence I'm sure is aware, we have
Page 4521
1 actually requested for an hour and a half of life testimony to be taken
2 from this witness in order to take clarifications and highlighting of
3 certain aspects of his testimony. We will be asking questions in
4 relation to all three incidents which are not contained within his 92 ter
5 materials. And we believe that it would assist the Court in the final
6 determination of these crimes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any response, Mr. Lukic?
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
9 In relation to certain witnesses, when the Prosecution wanted to
10 have examination-in-chief, they requested that their status be changed
11 from 92 ter to viva voce witnesses. And if this witness is now examined
12 in chief, that means that his status has been changed, and we have not
13 been inform about this.
14 As far as we know, this witness came as a 92 ter witness. We
15 have received material and his previous testimony, transcript of it, and
16 that's what we were expecting.
17 This is a complete surprise for us now.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, paragraph 21 of our guidelines, you
19 have complied with, and it doesn't look to me like unless you have made
20 prior arrangements with your colleagues you have any further rights to
21 lead the witness. I beg your pardon, sorry, I apologise.
22 Mr. Lukic, the same paragraph, does allow her to do a limited
23 examination to clarify or highlight particular aspects of the statement.
24 So she would be allowed to do so.
25 You may proceed, Madam Carter.
Page 4522
1 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, just to advise the Chamber as well that
2 on 26 September 2008
3 list with confidential Annex A, witness Dozo was listed as number 76 as a
4 92 ter witness, but we specifically indicated that the estimated hours of
5 examination-in-chief was one half hours. So I just want to clarify that
6 for the record since Defence counsel had indicated that they had no prior
7 warning that this witness would be led live. And I will continue with my
8 examination.
9 Q. Sir, I'd like to address first incident B-9 that took place in
10 December of 1994.
11 You provided in your previous transcript an on-site investigation
12 report of 14 December 1994
13 providing information with regards to the sniping of Dervisa Selmanovic?
14 A. As far as for the manner of shooting and the location of it, we
15 were informed about it by the neighbours of Mrs. Selmanovic. The locals.
16 When this incident took place, they managed to get her out from the area
17 where she had been wounded to pull her out of it. And then with the help
18 of UNPROFOR, they transported her to the Kosevo Hospital
19 admitted.
20 Q. At some later point, did you have an opportunity to speak with
21 Ms. Dervisa Selmanovic?
22 A. That day when that incident happened when she was wounded, I
23 didn't manage to talk to her, to interview her on that day.
24 Q. Did you have the opportunity to interview her on any day?
25 A. Yes, three months later, approximately three months later. It
Page 4523
1 was only then that we managed to locate her because she had moved out of
2 the house where she resided to another municipality, to Centar
3 municipality. And it wasn't until three months later that we managed to
4 locate her.
5 MS. CARTER: I would ask for 65 ter 8614 to be brought up into
6 e-court.
7 My apologies, Your Honour. Actually, it should be 65 ter 2640.
8 Q. Sir, do you recognise the document before you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What is the document?
11 A. This is an Official Note, after the interview with
12 Ms. Selmanovic, which was drawn up by myself, and I sent it on to the
13 police station, and from there, it went to the relevant unit.
14 Q. And just for clarity of the record, within the December 1994
15 report it was indicated that her left leg was shot. However, in the 1995
16 report, it said it was her right.
17 Can you please explain this difference.
18 A. The day that she was wounded I was duty police officer in the
19 police station, and the head of the shift was called by residents who
20 told him that there was some shooting from Spicaste Stijena, as a result
21 of which a female person was wounded. Later on we learned that it was
22 Mrs. Selmanovic.
23 Also, the person who reported the incident to the police station
24 said that she had been wounded in her left leg. Since neither I nor the
25 on-site investigation team managed to talk to Mrs. Selmanovic, because we
Page 4524
1 hadn't been able to locate her, we simply noted that down, based on what
2 we had heard from the neighbours, who also said that she had been wounded
3 in the left leg. I guess they were scared, under stress, and that's what
4 they reported to us.
5 Later on, when I managed to locate her and find where she lived,
6 we interviewed her, and it turned out she said to us and it was also
7 supported by the doctor's report that she had been wounded in her right
8 leg. And this is what we wrote down in the Official Note then.
9 Q. Thank you, sir.
10 I would now like to move on to the incident A-4, which was the
11 shelling incident of the flea market on 22 December 1994.
12 Did you take part in that investigation?
13 A. Yes. As a member of the on-site investigation team.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic. Sorry I am still having some problems
16 here. So my mind has taken --
17 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, once again, I will
19 reiterate my previous objection, with another explanation.
20 All of the questions that we have heard so far from my learned
21 friend have been covered in previous testimonies and statements. We
22 haven't heard anything new, in addition to what can be filed in the 92
23 ter package. If the Prosecutor wants an explanation in accordance with
24 Rule 21, they need to precede each of their questions with the
25 explanation of what it is that they're exactly seeking from the witness
Page 4525
1 that is in addition to the 92 ter package. If you were to look at the
2 92 ter package, you would see that everything that has been elicited from
3 the witness so far is included in that package. There is nothing new.
4 No new information there.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
6 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I'm not clear what package the Defence
7 counsel is reviewing. There were --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Reviewing the 92 ter package. That's what he is
9 talking about.
10 MS. CARTER: And if he were, the fact that the exhibit that I
11 just tendered is not found within the 92 ter package, would indicate that
12 this is in fact new information.
13 I will concede that there is an aspect where there was some
14 discussion within the portions of the package, specifically the
15 transcript, where the left leg/right leg difference was noted; however,
16 because dealing with a new exhibit that was not addressed within that old
17 package. I felt that I needed to clarify and to highlight that point.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But this confusion about which leg was
19 injured, was it not -- is it not already contained in the -- in the
20 92 ter package?
21 MS. CARTER: Very minimally, Your Honour. And because there is
22 no citation to the 1995 report in the 92 ter package, I felt in order to
23 have a complete record, we needed to relate the two documents to each
24 other and this would be how we would do it.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Notwithstanding that you gave notice to your
Page 4526
1 colleagues that you are going to lead this witness for one and a half
2 hours, the rule gives you limited leading. You are still subject to
3 limited leading. You may not necessarily have the entire one and a half
4 hours.
5 MS. CARTER: Certainly, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
7 MS. CARTER:
8 Q. Sir, were you a part of the investigation of the shelling of the
9 flea market on 22 December 1994
10 A. Yes, I was a member of the team.
11 MS. CARTER: I would ask that 65 ter 1439B be brought up into
12 e-court.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we do that, was 2640 admitted?
14 MS. CARTER: Apologies, Your Honour. I did not ask for 2640 to
15 be tendered. I do so now.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 2640 is admitted into evidence.
17 May it please be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1940, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, it is break time. Would it be a
22 convenient if we took a break and let the technician work on this?
23 MS. CARTER: Certainly, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We take a break and come back at quarter to 6.00.
25 Court adjourned.
Page 4527
1 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Carter.
4 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, in the break I determined that I'm
5 going to re-order the testimony, and so I'd now like to move on to
6 testimony related to scheduled incident A-9, and I would ask that 65 ter
7 number 9244.01 be brought up into e-court.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you abandoning 1439B?
9 MS. CARTER: For the time being, Your Honour. I will pick it up
10 again later.
11 Can this exhibit be expanded to full screen. There we go.
12 Q. Sir, in your statement, that has been admitted as P1938, you
13 refer to several investigations related to shellings that predated the
14 Markale II incident of August 1995. I would ask you to look at the
15 exhibit that's before you.
16 Do you recognise the area depicted in this map?
17 A. Yes. This is one part of the so-called old town and one part of
18 the so-called Centar municipality.
19 Q. Okay. With the assistance of the usher, I would ask you to make
20 a few markings on this map.
21 Can you first mark on the map the market which was hit on
22 5 February 1994
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Okay. In addition, can you also please mark the market that was
25 hit on 28 August 1995
Page 4528
1 A. It's very close some 50 to 100 metres away from this place, in
2 the same street.
3 Q. Thank you, sir.
4 MS. CARTER: I would like to have a screen shot taken of this
5 image and it be tendered into evidence.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence.
7 May it please be given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1941, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 MS. CARTER: Okay.
11 Q. Now I'd like to elaborate on paragraph 9 of that -- of your 1995
12 statement, in relation to the same map. You indicated that there was a
13 single shelling that took place on a day near Markale market.
14 Can you just tell us when exactly did this shelling take place,
15 the singular one?
16 A. Which particular shelling are you referring to? Or are you
17 talking about Markale II or Markale 1?
18 Q. I'm -- in reference to your statement, you indicated that there
19 was one incident where there was a single shelling and another incident
20 where there was three shellings that came in quick succession. I want to
21 deal first with the shelling that took place individually.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe my learned friend should refer
24 to a particular paragraph in the statement. That would allow the witness
25 to understand the question, because some things may be lost in
Page 4529
1 translation.
2 So maybe my learned friend should go to the statement and refer
3 the witness to the paragraph in the statement.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... understand
5 the question, sir?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 May I? May I answer?
8 MS. CARTER:
9 Q. Certainly, sir. Can you please tell me when did the singular
10 incident take place in relation to the August 28th Markale market
11 shelling?
12 A. Before Markale II, which was on 28 August -- or, rather, that
13 incident happened in the morning, around 11.00, 11.30, approximately.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which incident is it? The one of the 28th of
15 August?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
17 MS. CARTER:
18 Q. I think things are getting lost in translation, sir.
19 Okay. I'm not talking about the Markale II incident. But there
20 are two paragraphs in Exhibit P1938, in which you indicate: "To begin,
21 there's something more interesting to tell. I was part of the
22 investigation team that investigated some shellings short before the big
23 shelling of Markale on 28 August 1995
24 So I want to talk about those investigations.
25 Now you have broken it up in your statement between two separate
Page 4530
1 periods: One with three shellings, one with a singular shelling. I want
2 to start with the one that is a singular shelling.
3 Can you please tell me when that singular shelling took place.
4 A. I can't remember the exact day when that happened, but it was
5 before the Markale II shelling. I went for an on-site inspection, in the
6 immediate vicinity of the street -- or, rather, the Markale market, and
7 we were able to establish that two or three shells had been fired from
8 the area known as Barice in the north. The shells fell on the Geneta
9 [phoen] Cikma Street across the street from the Markale market. Two or
10 three children fell victim. I'm not sure how many. Actually, I don't
11 know whether any of them died. However, everything pointed to the fact
12 that the shells had been fired in the direction of the Markale market.
13 Q. Now, I understand that you can't give me a specific date, but can
14 you tell me was it within a year, within six months, within a month,
15 within weeks? Can you give us some approximation?
16 A. Approximately a month before that shelling.
17 MS. CARTER: I would actually like to have P1941 with the
18 markings that the witness made on screen, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Doesn't look like the markings are still there.
20 MS. CARTER: If they're not, I can certainly undergo the exercise
21 again.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did you want to do with that?
23 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I'm going to have the witness identify
24 where the shelling landed that injured these children.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you're going to give it another number.
Page 4531
1 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour.
2 Q. And with the help of the usher, sir, can you please identify on
3 this map where the children were injured that you just spoke of?
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. I see that you have drawn a bit of a star figure just above A-3.
6 Are you indicating that that's the location where the children were
7 injured?
8 If I can get a verbal response, please.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Then can you please mark that star with a C.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
13 MS. CARTER: I'd ask a screen shot be taken of this image and it
14 be tendered into evidence.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted.
16 May it please be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1942, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MS. CARTER:
20 Q. Sir, through the investigations of that event, did you determine
21 what the direction of fire was?
22 A. Yes. It was established that the shells had arrived from the
23 direction north, from the settlements of Barice and Mrkovici or rather
24 the neighbourhoods with those names.
25 Q. Who controlled that area?
Page 4532
1 A. The Serb forces.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to bring P1941 back on
3 screen. And we're going turn now to the series of three shellings that
4 took place.
5 Sir, did the series of three shellings happen on the same day as
6 the shelling that we were just referring to?
7 A. No, not on the same day. It was either before or after, one or
8 two days before or after, but I'm not sure.
9 Q. Thank you. Now you said that three shells -- there were three
10 shellings that day. Can you please describe what was hit with the first
11 shelling?
12 A. The first shell exploded in the street that was once called
13 something, and I don't remember what it was called, but nowadays it is
14 Skenderija Street, very close to a bridge and very close to a secondary
15 school that is located there. And I know that one young man died there.
16 He was a student at the school of political sciences.
17 Q. Do you see the location where the student was hit on the map
18 before you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I would ask that, in a
21 different colour, you place a number 1 where the student was killed, or
22 injured, pardon.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. You also indicated that there was a second shelling. Can you
25 please describe what was hit during the second shelling?
Page 4533
1 A. The second shell hit the then JNA street, as it was known then,
2 and today it is known as the defender of Sarajevo street. In front of
3 the building of the Stari Grad municipality. I don't know whether
4 anybody was killed there. I know that there were several wounded. Among
5 them there was a foreigner who was an employee of a humanitarian or a
6 charitable organisation that was, at the time, involved in the
7 installation of gas pipes in Sarajevo
8 Q. I would ask you to place a number 2 where these men were injured.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated there was a third shelling on that day.
11 What occurred at that shelling?
12 A. The third shell fell in Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street, which was
13 then known as Marsal Tito Street. And it hit the wall of the so-called
14 Konzum building. It was a food store. I know for sure that one person
15 was killed, that several persons were wounded on that occasion. And I
16 know that the person who was killed by the shell, the situation was
17 rather gruesome. We found a complete brain scattered on the street after
18 the shelling.
19 Q. Can you please mark with a 3 the location of this shelling?
20 A. [Marks]
21 MS. CARTER: And I would ask that a screen shot be taken of this
22 exhibit and it be tendered into evidence.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted into evidence. May it please be
24 given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1943, Your Honours.
Page 4534
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MS. CARTER: I will be asking with no further markings. The rest
3 will be led with the testimony. Okay.
4 Q. Sir, can you please advise us how close to the Markale market was
5 the third shelling?
6 A. The third shell fell not more than 30 metres away from there.
7 Q. And how far did the second shell fall from the third shell?
8 A. The first shell fell in the Suceska Street, the next one in the
9 JNA street
10 third shell fell at about the same distance to the previous two.
11 Q. Okay.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand the last answer [Microphone not
13 activated]
14 MS. CARTER: I will clarify, Your Honour.
15 Q. Okay. We'll just start again from the first shell.
16 How far was the first shell to Markale?
17 A. The first shell hit a place up to 250 or 300 metres away from
18 Markale, not more than that.
19 Q. And how close was the second shelling to Markale?
20 A. The shells fell at a distance of some 100 metres from each other.
21 The second shell hit a place that was about 150 to 200 metres away, not
22 more than that.
23 Q. And when you say "away," are you referring away from the Markale
24 market?
25 A. I'm referring to a distance between the place where the shell
Page 4535
1 exploded and the Markale.
2 Q. And just to confirm, you indicated that the third shelling took
3 place between about 30 and 50 metres from the Markale market. Is that
4 correct?
5 A. Yes. A third shell hit the same street, Mula Mustafe Baseskije,
6 which was then known as Marsal Tito Street. And the distance between the
7 place where it exploded and Markale market is not more than 30 metres.
8 If anything, it is probably less than 30 metres.
9 Q. Okay, sir. In your statement, you certainly have a strong
10 opinion as to what was occurring with these shellings. And you indicate
11 that those opinions are based on the fact that you had been a mortar
12 platoon commander in the JNA. I'd like to explore that a little bit with
13 you.
14 Can you please tell me when were you in the JNA, as a mortar
15 commander?
16 A. I served in the JNA in 1980, in Banja Luka, and there, I was
17 first trained as a soldier; then a non-commissioned officer; and then I
18 was assigned to be a commander of a platoon; and, finally, when I left
19 the army what was written in my military booklet was that I was a
20 commander of the mortar platoon.
21 Q. What training did you receive in order to become a mortar
22 commander?
23 A. First, I operated the 82-millimetre mortar, and then I became a
24 non-commissioned officer. I was a corporal. Then I was first trained as
25 a platoon commander. But when I worked on mortar, I was operating the
Page 4536
1 sight -- the sighting device.
2 Q. And that's what I'm trying to explore a bit about. Can you
3 please tell us what kind of education or training did you undergo in
4 order to hold these positions?
5 A. I had to undergo a complete training. I had to get familiar with
6 the weaponry, its use, and then I had to practice targeting.
7 Q. When you say you were practicing targeting, what does that mean?
8 A. That means that we practiced with shells, real shells. We were
9 given a target, and we were supposed to hit it. That's what we were
10 trained to do.
11 Q. How does one go about hitting a target?
12 A. There is a rule how you determine the angle, the distance. You
13 are trained how to hit a target by calculating your angle and by
14 calculating the distance.
15 Q. In regards to the succession of these three shells that we were
16 discussing before, how -- what was the time-frame in which all three hit?
17 A. The three shells fell within about half an hour from each other.
18 If the first one exploded around 10.00, then the third one probably
19 exploded around 10.30.
20 Q. With the lining of these as well as the timing, is that
21 consistent with the experience that you had sighting mortar, in the JNA?
22 A. It all depends on what you want to achieve, what you're aiming
23 for, and within what time. In any case, this was ample time to correct
24 fire in order to hit a target.
25 According to our experience in Sarajevo, what happened was one
Page 4537
1 shell would fall, then a certain period of time would pass, fire would be
2 corrected, and the subsequent shell would inflict more casualties.
3 Q. Based on your investigation of those three shellings, was a
4 determination made in regards to the direction of fire?
5 A. The shells came from the direction of Lukavica, or Vraca in the
6 Trebevic sector -- or, rather, from the slope of Trebevic, not from its
7 top and the slopes of Trebevic is where the neighbourhood of Lukavica was
8 located.
9 Q. Who controlled that territory?
10 A. Again, the Serb forces.
11 Q. Okay. I would now like to move to air bombs.
12 You indicated in your statement that you had some experience in
13 relation to those. Can you please tell me when is the first time that
14 you encountered an air bomb in Sarajevo
15 A. I can't remember the exact date when that happened. However, we
16 had received information that in the canyon of Muscanice
17 modified rocket had fallen. We didn't know what this was all about. And
18 when we went to the site we found an air bomb which had been modified, to
19 carry four more rocket motors. And I believe that this had been fired
20 from a multi-rocket-launcher. It never exploded. It just fell between
21 some rocks. And the ignition device missed and failed to activate. I
22 know that after that, people who were experts in explosives managed to
23 take out about 90 kilos of explosives from that unexploded bomb.
24 Q. What kind of damage can 90 kilos of explosive do?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
Page 4538
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether this witness is
2 qualified to supply an answer.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
4 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, based upon his experience of being a
5 commander in a mortar unit he would certainly -- should certainly be able
6 to answer, and if he wouldn't, he would, I believe, advise us of that.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that his experience with a
8 mortar platoon has nothing in common with an air bomb.
9 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, as we've heard testimony repeatedly
10 that an air bomb merely is a mortar with rockets attached to it. The
11 load, the specific explosive load is related to the mortar aspects of
12 which he would be experienced.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a more fundamental problem, Madam Carter.
14 And it doesn't arise on there question only. It has arisen a couple of
15 minutes ago. You're leading this witness like is he an expert witness.
16 Is he an expert witness?
17 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour. However, he has given opinions,
18 lay opinions within his witness statement. And I'm just trying to
19 provide the context in which he is making them.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And precisely because of that, what's the law
21 about opinions of laypeople? Are they admissible?
22 MS. CARTER: They certainly are admissible; however, the Court
23 would not rely upon them the same way as they would rely upon an expert
24 witness.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do laypeople give opinion evidence, ma'am?
Page 4539
1 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I think people give their opinions all
2 the time in regards to what happened. We can't put ourselves in the mind
3 of the people who are firing upon us.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you about what people do. I'm
5 asking you about the law. Does the law say laypeople give opinion
6 evidence?
7 MS. CARTER: I would have to fully brief that, Your Honour. I
8 know it has been the practice of the cases in which I have been a part
9 of, that they have been allowed to give opinion evidence. As to what
10 their basic experience is, they certainly would not be able to then
11 extrapolate on some other area of Sarajevo
12 didn't have personal knowledge about. And that's what makes the
13 difference. An expert able to extrapolate on things that he didn't have
14 personal dealings with, as opposed to this witness is merely talking
15 about those matters which he did deal with.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But did he deal with determining the amount
17 of damage that a 90-kilo air bomb can cause? Did he deal with that
18 90-kilo air bomb that was there, that he found -- that was found in the
19 rocks?
20 MS. CARTER: He is indicating that he certainly did. And given
21 the fact that he was responsible for many investigations in regards to
22 sniping and shelling within Sarajevo
23 position to be able to answer that question.
24 However, I can withdraw it if the court feels that it is not
25 helpful to its determination.
Page 4540
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't think it is very helpful, ma'am.
2 MS. CARTER: Okay. Certainly, Your Honour.
3 Q. Sir, outside of this air bomb, did you encounter any others
4 during your time in Sarajevo
5 A. Well, we conducted on-site investigations of all shells which
6 landed and exploded in the territory of our municipality. So from gun
7 rounds, 82-millimetres, mortars, Howitzers, 120-millimetres, mortar
8 shells, and so on. And I know that great damage was caused especially
9 when it comes to large-calibre mortar shells.
10 At that point in time, when we would arrive on site, what was
11 really important us was to establish the direction of firing, and that
12 indicated that this shell had been fired in the direction of Stari Grad,
13 old town.
14 Q. I'd actually like to move back to the question. We know that
15 your statement, that you did investigate one air bomb. Is that the only
16 air bomb that you encountered during your time in Stari Grad?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Based on the investigation of that air bomb, do you have any
19 information as regards to who fired?
20 A. As far as I am aware, we, the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina
21 not have such weaponry. So these air bombs could only have been fired
22 from the positions under the control of the army of Republika Srpska.
23 Q. You just indicated "we," in relation to the army of Bosnia
24 Herzegovina
25 the police force?
Page 4541
1 A. No. I was a member of police force.
2 Q. All right. Now I would like to move back to the incident that
3 took place in the flea market.
4 Sir, did you assist in the investigation of that flea market
5 shelling?
6 A. Yes. I was a member of the team which conducted on-site
7 investigation.
8 Q. Okay. When you say you were part of a team, who makes up that
9 team?
10 A. There was an investigating judge, who led the investigation, was
11 in charge of it; then there were officials from the homicide unit of the
12 Sarajevo
13 Sarajevo
14 of Stari Grad.
15 Q. Which type of individual were you, in relation to that
16 investigation?
17 A. When there is a shelling incident, it is usually the uniformed
18 policemen who secure the location. Following that, an on-site
19 investigation team usually arrives, led by an investigating judge. Our
20 task, my colleague and I, who represented the Stari Grad police, were
21 there to work under the orders of the investigating judge to locate the
22 traces of explosion, traces of a shell that had exploded, and then
23 following that, crime technicians would arrive to take photographs of the
24 site. And then on the orders of the police, that would be secured and
25 isolated, and analysis would be conducted, and then the entire material
Page 4542
1 would be forwarded to the investigating judge for further proceedings.
2 Q. And just to make sure I know where in that answer your role
3 ended, you indicated that you were to look for the traces of explosion,
4 traces of a shell that had exploded.
5 Now is that your entire role? And then somebody else takes on
6 the job from there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are you familiar with the official reports that are drawn up,
9 based on this type of investigation?
10 A. A judge is in charge of it, and then a report is drawn up by the
11 police officials from the homicide unit.
12 MS. CARTER: I would ask that 65 ter number 1439B be brought up
13 into e-court. And I believe Defence counsel is on his feet.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It seems to me that we have not
16 received an answer to the question that was just put to the witness.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... Are you interested
18 in getting the answer, ma'am, or ...
19 MS. CARTER: I can --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: We just want to know, are you interested?
21 MS. CARTER: I thought he had answered. I do apologise.
22 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the types of reports that are drawn up
23 after an investigation such as this?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. CARTER: And I would ask that this exhibit be taken to page 2
Page 4543
1 in the English and page 5 in the B/C/S.
2 Q. Sir, I see on the official report, there is a listing of ten
3 individuals who worked on this investigation, with your name following as
4 number 10. Are you familiar with the other gentlemen who took part in
5 this investigation?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And during your proofing session, did you have the opportunity to
8 review this file?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you believe that this file is a true and accurate depiction of
11 the investigation that was performed in relation to the 22 December 1994
12 shelling incident?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, at this time I am seeking to tender
15 this document. However, I do want to bring the Court's attention to the
16 fact that P415 is also a copy of this file. The English version is
17 complete in both 415 as well as in 65 ter 1439B. The discrepancy comes
18 in with regards to the B/C/S. The original exhibit P415 only contains
19 11 pages of the B/C/S. We had asked for guidance and received it that we
20 could not add those additional pages to the exhibit because it actually
21 had already been tendered and accepted by the Court.
22 So I would request that -- that these two exhibits be merged so
23 that we have a complete B/C/S and English copy, and would certainly, for
24 clarity of the record, like to maintain it as P415.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any response, Mr. Lukic?
Page 4544
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I haven't got a problem with it,
2 Your Honour. Whatever is the best technical solution.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, is this exhibit in both English and
4 B/C/S complete? This one. This one here.
5 MS. CARTER: The one before you is complete, Your Honour, yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Complete on both versions.
7 MS. CARTER: Correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, this document here is admitted in
9 its entirety. Will it please replace Exhibit P415 -- and Exhibit P415 be
10 withdrawn completely, and this take the number P415.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Will do, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MS. CARTER: And at this time, the Prosecution passes the
14 witness.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Carter.
16 Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Just a
18 moment please.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dozo, good afternoon.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. I am Defence counsel Novak Lukic, and I will be examining you on
23 behalf of the Defence team of Mr. Perisic. I would kindly ask you to
24 pause a bit before giving your answer, and I will do the same before
25 putting a new question so that the interpreters can follow us.
Page 4545
1 A. All right.
2 Q. First of all, I'd like to put a few questions to you concerning
3 what I will call the first incident, in Sedrenik where Selmanovic,
4 Dervisa was injured. At that time, you worked at the Stari Grad police
5 station. Correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What was your exact job position at the time?
8 A. I was an inspector in the crime prevention police unit.
9 Q. At the time, within your scope of duties, were you authorised to
10 file criminal reports?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. These criminal reports or criminal complaints are normally sent
13 to the public prosecutor who has jurisdiction over it.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Your police station received information that in Sedrenik a woman
16 was injured, and at that time a team was set up within the police
17 station, which was to go to the location and to carry out an on-site
18 investigation?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How is such a team established or set up at the police station?
21 A. Once we receive information about an incident, the head of the
22 shift within the police station informs a judge about the incident.
23 Following that the cantonal MUP, which had technical equipment to
24 cover the entire city of Sarajevo
25 department, they had a KDZ unit where there were ballistics experts
Page 4546
1 working. The judge would then authorise an inspector to go to the site
2 if he, the judge, wasn't able to go himself, and it would be the police
3 inspector from the police station in the territory where the incident
4 happened.
5 Once the on-site investigation is completed, then the inspector
6 is duty-bound to draw up the minutes or the report of the on-site
7 investigation, to complete it with photographs and to deliver all of that
8 together to the investigating judge.
9 Q. As far as I understand, the ballistics expert who joins you,
10 together with forensics experts, they come from the cantonal MUP?
11 A. Yes, it is the cantonal MUP, the CSB of Sarajevo.
12 Q. How much time normally elapse from the moment you learn of an
13 incident -- if you remember in this particular case, how much time was
14 needed for a team to be set up and to arrive at the site?
15 A. The setting up of the team itself was not a problem, but it was a
16 problem to go to the location, because there would be additional
17 shellings, usually. And sometimes it would take us two, three, four
18 hours before we were able to get to the location. Sometimes a judge
19 wasn't available because he was busy with other grave cases. And in
20 those instances he would authorise an inspector to go instead of him.
21 Q. In this particular case the officer on duty at the police station
22 was informed that this woman had been injured in her left leg.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And armed with this information, you went to the site?
25 A. Yes.
Page 4547
1 Q. At the site you did not find this injured woman?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You learned that she had been transported to the hospital.
4 A. Yes, to the hospital.
5 Q. And there, at the location, the neighbours described the incident
6 to you.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And they described to you where she stood when the incident
9 happened.
10 A. Yes. And we found some blood in that location.
11 Q. You didn't take any statements from them, did you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You didn't manage to reach the location because of the shooting
14 that was going on at the time.
15 A. Yes. We were taking shelter behind the house where
16 Mrs. Selmanovic lived.
17 Q. And it was only from that location that you were able to take
18 photographs of the -- of the location where you had been informed she had
19 been injured?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you remember how many photographs were made on the occasion,
22 photographs of the actual site?
23 A. I can't remember.
24 Q. Do you remember later on, when you officially interviewed
25 Mrs. Selmanovic, did you show her the photographs of the site?
Page 4548
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. Did you ask her to draw a sketch of the place where she had been
3 injured?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you remember when the on-site investigation was conducted, the
6 ballistics expert and the forensic technicians, what were doing?
7 A. They were taking photographs of the site. And based on the
8 accounts of neighbours, we tried to establish where the shooting had come
9 from.
10 Q. And based on the accounts of neighbours, you obtained information
11 that you then recorded in the on-site investigation report?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. However, you never interviewed or took statements from those
14 people.
15 A. No. We didn't manage to. We were not able to take statements
16 from the people right there on the location. We had to tell them to come
17 to the police station. And it was war-time, and it was difficult for
18 people to come to the police station.
19 Q. Were there a number of such cases where you drew up on-site
20 investigation reports without taking statements from eye-witnesses?
21 A. Seldom.
22 Q. Do you remember whether the ballistics expert who was present
23 wrote a report? Normally he does that when his finding is requested.
24 A. Ballistics experts and forensic technicians were not from my
25 police station; they were from the cantonal MUP. So they never provided
Page 4549
1 any reports to me. At least I didn't see any reports.
2 Q. The person who files a criminal complaint or report, isn't that
3 person duty-bound to collect all documents that accompany such a report?
4 A. At the time we did not file criminal reports against unknown
5 perpetrators. It was something that an investigating judge was supposed
6 to do, because he would later receive all the relevant documentation,
7 together.
8 Q. So you provided your portion of the paperwork, the Official Note,
9 and the report, you provided that three months later, and you supposed
10 that the ballistics expert and the forensic technicians provided their
11 reports?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you had no idea about what they had written in their reports?
14 A. No.
15 Q. From there you went to the hospital, you found a doctor, on duty,
16 you entered his name in to your Official Note. Do you remember that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In order to avoid any confusion -- just bear with me for a
19 moment, please.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the Court please produce
21 Exhibit P1939.
22 And can we please zoom in on the bottom part of the document.
23 Q. So this is a note on the on-site inspection of the incident that
24 took place on the 9th of December 1994?
25 A. Yes.
Page 4550
1 Q. It says here in the penultimate paragraph she was transported by
2 a vehicle to the Kosevo clinical Hospital, and there she received medical
3 assistance at the orthopaedic department. She was sent home for
4 treatment after her wound had been dressed. According to
5 Dr. Fuad Dzankovic her wound was not serious.
6 Has this jogged your memory, do you remember now that you spoke
7 to the doctor who was on duty at the time?
8 A. Yes, yes. When we completed our investigation, we went to the
9 hospital to look for the lady. And the doctor had admitted here was able
10 to ascertain that the wound was not serious, and he discharged her.
11 Q. Did you ask the doctor to provide you with a report about the
12 nature of her wounds?
13 A. No. At the time nobody did that. We did not ask for medical
14 findings. The medical findings were given to the lady, and she took them
15 with her.
16 Q. Did you ask the doctor to show you anything in writing about the
17 type of wound and what leg was wounded?
18 A. I only remember that at the time that he told us that it was a
19 slight injury, nothing else.
20 Q. Did you inform him that your information -- according to your
21 information it was the left leg.
22 A. No, I can't remember that at the moment.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we with scroll up just a little.
24 I have one more question. It will be brief. For that, I would like to
25 see the upper portion of the document.
Page 4551
1 Q. This on-site investigation report was compiled two days post
2 festum?
3 A. Yes. On the 14th of December and the -- and the incident took
4 place on the 12th.
5 Q. And the information about the wounded including the address
6 Zaima Sarca Street
7 A. Probably from the doctor.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the Court please produce P1940.
9 Q. Three months subsequently you were able to find the wounded
10 woman, not before. Am I right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you interviewed her at the police station?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This document shows that he -- that she was residing at the same
15 address that you entered into your investigation report.
16 A. However, the house number in this document is 57; whereas in the
17 previous report, there was no number because we were not aware of the
18 number of the house.
19 Q. Did you try in the meantime to go and look up her neighbours and
20 ask for their opinion an information?
21 A. They did not reside there, not all of them resided there at the
22 time. The times were dangerous. It was dangerous to live there.
23 Q. So you didn't go to Sedrenik once again to check on her?
24 A. The uniform police were in charge of that. They were in charge
25 of the area, and they were in charge of inspecting, and they were
Page 4552
1 supposed to find out whether the lady had returned to her former address
2 in Sedrenik.
3 Q. Is this a Sedrenik address? I apologise for asking. Are you
4 familiar with this name?
5 A. The street is Sedrenik or, rather, the Zaim Sarca Street, and it
6 does not depict a number.
7 Q. However, it is in the Sedrenik neighbourhood; is it not?
8 A. The Zaim Sarca Street is in centre municipality, not in Sedrenik.
9 Close to the hospital.
10 Q. When she told you that she had been wounded in the right leg,
11 which you then recorded in your Official Note, did you send that
12 information to the investigating judge?
13 A. Yes. By way of an Official Note.
14 Q. And again you didn't obtain any medical records to that effect?
15 A. No, I didn't. It is possible that -- that it does say so in the
16 report, but I don't remember that we had a camera or that we scanned the
17 document.
18 Q. I'm interested in something else that makes part of the
19 procedure. When your police station is informed that an incident
20 happened, you record some information, and on this particular occasion
21 the information that you recorded was that she was wounded in the left
22 leg. Is that correct?
23 A. [No interpretation]
24 Q. When information is obtained subsequently, is that information
25 entered in the log-book as well?
Page 4553
1 A. You're talking about the day in the log-book of daily events.
2 And if you're referring to that, we don't enter any subsequent
3 information into that daily log-book, the log-book of daily events.
4 Q. What you are saying is this: If the original information entered
5 into the log-book is that the --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
7 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I see in the transcript that there's
8 now an indication that we cannot distinguish between the question and the
9 answer. I would ask -- I suppose, it's a slowing-down issue. And also
10 can we get some differentiation, so we know who to attribute whatever
11 lines were at issue to either witness or to Defence counsel.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Counsel and witness, can be please slow down and
13 make sure you pause between each other's speeches.
14 Madam Carter is asking that we attribute words to people I'm not
15 quite sure whether you are able to do that, but if you are, please do
16 that.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters. I
18 have tried to bear their work in mind, and I will try to control myself
19 and make the transcript as legible as possible.
20 Q. Mr. Dozo, if the original information is obtained and entered
21 into the log-book, and if according to that information, somebody was
22 killed and if it is learned subsequently that the original information
23 was not correct, the log-book, the original record in the log-book is not
24 subsequently corrected. Is that what you have told us?
25 A. It cannot happen that somebody got killed and that this -- that
Page 4554
1 such information is misrecorded.
2 Q. Let me be a bit more precise. There is a log-book at the police
3 station and somebody calls in and says that there was an incident with
4 casualties, with somebody who got killed. That is a possibility?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. A team is sent to the site, they carry out an on-site inspection
7 and they obtain different information. Is the original information
8 corrected in the log-book that is kept at the station?
9 A. There's so little room in the log-book that you can only record
10 the original information that was obtained, that came in. If there are
11 drastic consequences, if a shell fell with a number of wounded, that is
12 recorded. At a later stage, three or four months later after many such
13 incidents happened, we never went back to subsequently change the
14 original data because the person who originally obtained the information
15 would have to record the subsequent information -- information could be
16 recorded by every officer on duty. The only valid document was an
17 Official Note, which was then submitted to the prosecutor. And that was
18 the only valid document that we always went by.
19 Q. That's correct. And only based on that document, one could know
20 how many people were indeed killed, or about reasonable suspicion that
21 somebody was killed.
22 A. Based on people calling in, we made a record of that person's
23 name, the person who called in, and then we recorded the information that
24 we obtained, especially if somebody got killed, because we also had to
25 inform the families of the people who were allegedly killed. We also
Page 4555
1 conducted hospital, morgues in order to ascertain whether it was that
2 particular person, that was really in question.
3 Q. You said that according to your information, in the area of
4 Sedrenik, between 50 and 100 people fell victim to sniping incidents.
5 That's what you have told us.
6 A. Sniping incidents and shelling combined, I believe. That would
7 be better said. This was not the only incident.
8 Q. You know and you participated in only one more case, where one
9 man had been hit by a sniper. That's what you testified.
10 A. Yes. And that person also died. I went to some on-site
11 inspections where there were no human casualties involved, but there was
12 damages to the houses.
13 Q. We're talking about human victims because that's part of your
14 testimony, and that's part of what has been recorded.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
16 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. In addition to the Dervisa Selmanovic case, you personally
19 participated in one more incident that involved human casualties in that
20 area.
21 A. Yes. The second incident was the one during which a man had been
22 killed, but I also participated in on-site investigations after sniper
23 fire had been opened on houses, but such incidents did not involve any
24 dead. There were people injured, however.
25 Q. You also did not have an insight into the book that could confirm
Page 4556
1 your statement that between 50 and 100 people got killed in that area.
2 A. That's because I never carried out any private investigations of
3 my own.
4 Q. I agree with you. We're testifying about the facts here. That's
5 why I'm asking you only about the facts.
6 You can't tell the Trial Chamber the name of any other person who
7 was killed or in that area during the war?
8 A. After so many years, I really can't remember the name of the
9 person who got killed in the incident that I investigated personally.
10 Q. The figure that you gave us is part of your assumption. Wouldn't
11 that be correct?
12 A. From the moment the aggression started to the moment the country
13 was reintegrated, there was no single day without sniper fire from
14 Spicaste Stijena. And every day people got targeted and killed in
15 Sedrenik, not only from sniper fire but also from shelling by mortars and
16 Howitzers.
17 Q. I asked you very specifically whether you are aware of any other
18 incidents besides the two that you participated in. Are you aware of any
19 other concrete incident, victim or a colleague of yours who participated
20 in an investigation of a very concrete incident?
21 A. I can't remember any.
22 Q. Thank you. Just a couple more questions about this topic.
23 As far as I could understand, when you described the positions of
24 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sedrenik in relation to Spicaste
25 Stijena, you said that it was impossible for the shots to have come from
Page 4557
1 the positions of the BiH army, because in that case their backs would be
2 turned to Spicaste Stijena?
3 A. No. Spicaste Stijena is an elevation about 900 metres above the
4 sea level, and that's -- hence its name. And below Spicaste Stijena
5 there is an rock and there's a meadow under that, and there you have this
6 neighbourhood or settlement. There were no positions of the BiH army
7 there, because it would have been too close. And the positions would
8 have been at the foot of Spicaste Stijena, and that would be about
9 20 metres distance from the very top. So they could have thrown rocks at
10 them. That's why the lines were moved left to Grdonja. And in the right
11 direction the positions were moved to a forest, the name of which I don't
12 know. That's where the lines were. But they were not exactly lines;
13 they were just two or three positions or protective bunkers of sorts that
14 protected the area from the onslaught of Serb forces towards Sedrenik.
15 Q. In your view, how far away is Spicaste Stijena from Sedrenik or
16 the location where that lady got wounded?
17 A. It is very close. I can't tell you exactly how close, but maybe,
18 as the crow flies, not more than 500 metres.
19 Q. The positions of the BH army in Sedrenik as far as I could
20 understand, were mostly manned by the locals, by people who resided
21 there.
22 A. 90 per cent were those people or somebody else. If the line had
23 to be reinforced, somebody would come from different areas.
24 Q. They were armed. Did they also have uniforms; do you remember?
25 A. Some did, and some were there in civilian clothes.
Page 4558
1 Q. However, when they were not on positions, they resided in
2 Sedrenik?
3 A. Some lived in Sedrenik, and the others lived in town. It all
4 depended on how resourceful they were.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe this is a
6 good time for -- to end our session today.
7 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 Sir, unfortunately, we have to knock off, but we are not done
10 with you. Can you, please, come back tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 again
11 in the afternoon in the same courtroom. And I warn that you while you
12 are still giving evidence, you may not discuss the case with anybody, not
13 even with your lawyers, okay.
14 Thank you so much.
15 Court adjourned tomorrow, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon,
16 Courtroom II.
17 Court adjourned.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.
19 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of
20 March, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.
21
22
23
24
25