1 Wednesday, 29 April 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom and everybody in Belgrade
7 the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T, the
10 Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, so much. Could we have the appearances
12 for today, starting with the Prosecution, please.
13 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours, Dan Saxon for the
14 Prosecution, together with my colleagues Barney Thomas and Carmela
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Saxon. For the Defence,
17 Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
19 morning to everybody in the courtroom. Mr. Perisic is today represented
20 by much Daniela Tasic, Milos
21 Novak Lukic.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 Mr. Prosecutor.
24 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls
25 witness Rade Orlic.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Rade Orlic.
2 Good morning, Mr. Orlic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please make the declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
10 WITNESS: RADE ORLIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 [Witness testified via video-link]
13 Examination by Mr. Saxon:
14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Orlic. Can you hear me?
15 A. Good morning. Yes, I can hear you well.
16 Q. For the record, can you state your full name, please.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is --
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are not receiving ...
20 I hope that this is going to function from now on.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
22 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
23 MR. SAXON:
24 Q. Once again, sir, could you state your full name, please.
25 A. My name is Rade Orlic.
1 Q. Mr. Orlic, where and when were you born?
2 A. I was born in Korenica in Croatia on the 7th of April, 1941
3 Q. And the part of Croatia
4 region have a particular name?
5 A. Yes. The region's name is Lika.
6 Q. And is Lika part of another region?
7 A. I don't know at the moment. During the war, it was in Krajina.
8 Q. All right. Mr. Orlic, what is your ethnicity?
9 A. I'm a Serb.
10 Q. Are you retired now?
11 A. Yes. I was pensioned off on the 30th of March, 1995
12 Q. And, Mr. Orlic, what was your profession?
13 A. I was an officer.
14 Q. And were you an officer in the armed forces of Yugoslavia?
15 A. Yes. I graduated from the military academy in 1963, and then I
16 completed a command staff academy in 1977.
17 Q. And so if my mathematics is correct, you served in the army for
18 32 years; is that right?
19 A. Yes, 32 or 33. You're probably right.
20 Q. Prior to the break-up of the Socialist Federal Republic
22 A. You mean just before the break-up or generally speaking from the
23 moment I graduated to the moment Yugoslavia
24 Q. I'm referring to the three areas of the former Yugoslavia where
25 you were based during your time in the army.
1 A. I started serving in Pristina. I was there for a year. In 1964,
2 in the month of September, I was transferred to Skopje, and I stayed
3 there until 1975. From 1975 to 1977, I attended a command staff academy
4 in Belgrade
6 Q. Did you have a specialty in the army?
7 A. Yes. My specialty was intelligence.
8 Q. What was your rank when you retired?
9 A. I was a colonel.
10 Q. While you served in the Army of Yugoslavia, did you follow orders
11 from your superiors?
12 A. Yes, of course.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like a distinction to be made
15 between the Yugoslav People's Army and the Army of Yugoslavia. I would
16 like Mr. Saxon to be more precise in those terms. I believe that the
17 previous question was a leading question.
18 MR. SAXON: Well, I don't think it was a leading question, but I
19 am very willing to be precise, more precise.
20 Q. While you served in the Yugoslav People's Army, did you follow
21 orders from your superiors?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And after the Yugoslav People's Army became the Army of
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. While you were -- what would have happened to you if you had
2 disobeyed an order?
3 A. I don't know what would have happened, but it never occurred to
4 me anyway. I would not have been able to be a member of either the JNA
5 or the Army of Yugoslavia
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this is asking from
8 the witness to speculate. The question should have been put in the
9 following way: Were you ever in a situation that an order was issued to
10 you and that you did not carry it out? The question as it was put and it
11 was worded as "what would have happened if you had" calls for speculation
12 on the part of the witness.
13 MR. SAXON: I disagree, Your Honour. This gentleman served in
14 the military for more than 30 years. He was an officer. He followed --
15 he followed a particular life in the army. I think he is perfectly
16 competent to answer that question based on his knowledge and state of
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but it is still speculative to the extent
19 that we don't know whether, if he disobeyed an order, those above him
20 would have themselves followed procedure to discipline him or whether
21 they would have decided to favour him and not do anything. However, if
22 you ask the question what the rules were when orders were disobeyed, then
23 he can tell you what the rules were.
24 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour. Thank you. I'll rephrase my
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MR. SAXON:
3 Q. While you served in the Army of Yugoslavia, were there rules that
4 addressed soldiers or officers who did not obey orders?
5 A. Of course there were rules. However, I never put myself in a
6 situation to disobey an order issued to me. There were all sorts of
7 disciplinary measures that applied to such cases.
8 Q. All right. While you served in the Army of Yugoslavia, could you
9 move from one position to another without the permission of your
10 superiors, from one post to another?
11 A. No, no, not at all. Every transfer was pursuant to an order.
12 Q. All right.
13 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness a document. It is part of
14 Exhibit P1683. It has -- it would be document ID page 98 in B/C/S. In
15 English, it would be document ID 0611-4942.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You heard that, Mr. Saxon, page 98 of the B/C/S.
17 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Registrar in Belgrade would like you to repeat
19 that page.
20 MR. SAXON: In B/C/S it would be page 98, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Orlic, do you recognise this document?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is that your signature at the bottom?
24 A. Yes, this is my signature, indeed.
25 Q. Can you explain what this document is?
1 A. This document by which I declare that I'm willing to take on
2 duties in the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, a temporary duty.
3 At my own request, I spent 6 months in Lika. I was the commander of the
4 Territorial Defence of Lika, and I formed a staff there. And says here
5 should I be sent to the Krajina again, please take into account the duty
6 that I performed, and then what follows is my signature.
7 Q. Well, down below towards the bottom of the document, we see a
8 name, Colonel Vladimir Stojkovic. Who was Colonel Stojkovic, if you
10 A. Colonel Stojkovic was the chief of the intelligence department in
11 the 1st Army, of the Army of Yugoslavia
12 Q. And what relationship --
13 A. Actually, it was still the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.
14 Q. All right. Do you recall approximately when you submitted this
16 A. No, there is no date. However, I can see that this was
17 immediately after my return from Lika. I returned on the 13th of
18 February, 1992. I could have issued this statement towards the end of
19 1992 when the Territorial Defence of Yugoslavia was disbanded. After
20 that, I was transferred to the intelligence department in the 1st Army,
21 and this was sometime in either November or December 1992.
22 Q. Did you have a relationship with Colonel Stojkovic of some kind?
23 A. He was my superior. I was his deputy.
24 Q. When you say --
25 A. When I moved to the command of the 1st Army.
1 Q. Mr. Orlic, why did you -- and when you moved to the command of
2 the 1st Army, at that time did the Yugoslav People's Army still exist, or
3 was it the Army of Yugoslavia?
4 A. I don't know exactly when the Yugoslav People's Army was
5 transformed into the Army of Yugoslavia. I believe that it was in early
7 Q. All right. Mr. Orlic, why did you submit this document?
8 A. I submitted it to demonstrate that if there was a requirement in
9 Krajina, and I believe that the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina had
10 already been established, so in the case, my services were required in
11 the Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina, I submitted the document to
12 show everybody that they can count on me and that I was willing to go
13 back there.
14 Q. You mentioned that you returned from Lika, and in the second
15 paragraph of the document it says:
16 "I would like to note that I have spent six months in Lika on my
17 own request."
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Why did you return from Lika?
20 A. At that time -- and I said that I returned on the 13th of March.
21 At that time, the situation in Lika started getting better. UNPROFOR had
22 already arrived in the area sometime in February 1992. Preparations were
23 underway for the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army from Croatia
24 the border between Bosnia
25 need for me to remain there.
1 Q. Did you simply get into your car and return to Belgrade?
2 A. No, I couldn't do that. I asked my superior who was my superior
3 even before I went to Lika, General Djokic, who was the commander of the
4 Territorial Defence [Realtime transcript read in error] of Serbia
5 reported to him, I submitted the situation to him, and I requested his
6 leave for me to return to Belgrade
7 Q. Mr. Orlic, in the third paragraph of this document, you wrote the
9 "Should I be sent to the Krajina again, please" --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] A word was omitted from his answer,
12 page 8, line 95. He said General Djokic who was the commander of Serbia
13 whereas the witness said that General Djokic was the commander of the
14 Territorial Defence of Serbia
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
17 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON:
19 Q. Mr. Orlic, in the third paragraph of your document, you wrote:
20 "Should I be sent to the Krajina again, please take into account
21 the duty that I performed."
22 Mr. Orlic, what did you mean by this phrase "please take into
24 A. Well, what I meant was my rank and the duty that would correspond
25 to my rank and my position.
1 Q. All right.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I still want to know, the duty that he performed
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. Mr. Orlic, I don't know if you heard His Honour's question. In
6 that third paragraph, you wrote:
7 "Should I be sent to the Krajina again, please take into account
8 the duty that I performed."
9 Which duty and where are you referring to in that sentence?
10 A. In 1991 on the 30th of September, I went to Lika when the new
11 Territorial Defence was being formed that was part of the armed forces of
12 the SFRY. And when I wrote this, I meant that if I were to go to Lika
13 again, I wanted to be deployed to a duty that corresponded to my rank.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: This sentence doesn't speak about something that
15 is going to happen in the future. It is talking about something that
16 happened in the past, sir. I want to know where you performed the duty
17 that you want to be taken into account, and when was that duty performed,
18 in which army?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the commander of the zone HQ
20 in Lika from October until -- October 1991 until March 1992. That was
21 the establishment rank of colonel, and then I thought that if I were to
22 go to Lika again, I wanted to be deployed to a duty that would correspond
23 to my rank, since it was a zone HQ and the TO was later abolished.
24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may I ask a clarifying question?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please.
1 MR. SAXON:
2 Q. At that time between October 1991 and early 1992 when you were
3 the commander of the zone Territorial Defence in Lika, what army -- or
4 which army were you serving with?
5 A. The Territorial Defence was part of the armed forces of
7 MR. SAXON: May I proceed, Your Honour?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a minute.
9 Sir, you keep saying that if you were to return to Lika you would
10 want that -- the duty you had performed to be taken into account. This
11 letter is making an offer to serve in the Army of the Republic of Serbian
12 Krajina. It doesn't make an offer to serve in Lika. So if you are to be
13 redeployed to the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, you could be
14 deployed to any other place including Lika but not necessarily to Lika.
15 How would the job you had performed in Lika be taken account of? You say
16 -- okay. You tell me why if you are offering to be returned to the Army
17 of the Republic of Serbian Krajina you should necessarily be deployed in
18 Lika. You tell me why, based on this letter.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't mean here. It says if I
20 were to be deployed to Krajina again, kindly keep in mind the duties that
21 I was performing. I did not only refer here to the Lika sector, but any
22 place in the Krajina, but to a duty that would correspond to my rank. I
23 could have been sent to Knin, also, Varazdin, anywhere within the
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you.
1 You may proceed, Mr. Saxon.
2 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 We can remove that document now, please.
4 Q. Mr. Orlic, if you could turn your mind, please, now to the year
5 1993. Can you recall, during the first half of 1993, what was your
7 A. Until the Territorial Defence of Yugoslavia was disbanded, I was
8 at the TO staff as the chief of the intelligence service until the
9 Territorial Defence was disbanded sometime, I don't know exactly, perhaps
10 November 1992.
11 After the TO was disbanded, the TO of Yugoslavia, I was
12 transferred to the commander of the 1st Army as deputy of the -- as first
13 deputy of the chief of the intelligence sector in that army.
14 Q. And at that time while you were working for the 1st Army, were
15 you then -- during 1993, was it the People's Army of Yugoslavia, or was
16 it the Army of Yugoslavia?
17 A. I think that the Yugoslav People's Army transformed into the Army
18 of Yugoslavia
20 Q. All right. Later in 1993, at some point did you leave your
21 position with the 1st Army?
22 A. Can you please repeat the question?
23 Q. Later on during the year of 1993, at some point did you leave
24 your position at the 1st Army of the Army of Yugoslavia? Did you go
25 somewhere else?
1 A. Yes. In mid-November 1993, I went to the Krajina again.
2 Q. And how did you happen at that time to go to the Krajina? How
3 did that come about? Did you simply leave your post, or what happened?
4 A. I went to visit my friends in the personnel centre and the
5 intelligence administration where I worked before from the place where I
6 was working, and it wasn't that far away. So at one time, I found out at
7 the 40th Personnel Centre that some senior officers were going again to
8 Krajina, and that's when I was told I, too, should go. This was sometime
9 in early November 1993.
10 Q. And who was it, if you recall, at the 40th Personnel Centre who
11 told you you should go to the Krajina?
12 A. At the time Colonel Lalic was there, and Colonel Medakovic. I
13 think Stevo Medakovic was the one who told me that I needed to go to the
15 Q. And this 40th Personnel Centre, do you recall what its function
17 A. The 40th Personnel Centre's duty was to send officers from the
18 Army of Yugoslavia
19 send non-commissioned officers there who were born there and wanted to go
20 to the Krajina.
21 Q. What about active officers like yourself?
22 A. The centre also sent active officers.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, you say you had visited your friends at the
24 40th Personnel Centre and you were told you, too, needed to go to the
25 Krajina. Did you go to the Krajina on the verbal message that you
1 received when you visited your friends, or did you receive a written
2 order to go to the Krajina?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't receive any kind of
4 written order, but it was on the basis of an oral statement. After that,
5 I went to my superior Colonel Stojkovic in the 1st Army, and I told him,
6 and he agreed that I should go. I don't know how this matter was
7 resolved between them, but I did get permission to go.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the permission you got was oral?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when you first heard about this at the
11 40th Personnel Centre, it was just on the chance that -- on the off
12 chance that you happened to be there and this is what you were told?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it just happened that way.
14 Had I not gone, perhaps they would have called me and told me that. I
15 don't know. But in any case, that's how it happened in my case.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 You may proceed, Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Orlic, why did you discuss this move to the Krajina with your
20 superior officer in the 1st Army?
21 A. I had to speak to him. I had to get his permission to go. I
22 couldn't just leave the duty that I was performing and go off of my own
23 free will.
24 MR. SAXON: Court's indulgence, please.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've got it.
1 MR. SAXON:
2 Q. Mr. Orlic, can you recall the date at this time in November when
3 you left for the Krajina?
4 A. We set off on the 16th of November in the morning.
5 Q. And, Mr. Orlic, when you say "we," who do you mean by "we"?
6 A. There were a number of officers who were leaving at that time
7 from the Army of Yugoslavia
8 mostly there were civilians who were going there to their homes or to see
9 their families. There were about five or six buses leaving.
10 Q. And who arranged the buses?
11 A. The 40th centre, I assume, because these were military buses.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The 16th of November, which year?
13 MR. SAXON:
14 Q. When you say that you left for the Krajina on the 16th of
15 November, Mr. Orlic, again, what year are we talking about?
16 A. 1993.
17 Q. All right. And where in the Krajina did you go?
18 A. I went to Korenica. Three buses with civilians and a good number
19 of the officers came to Korenica. After that, some went to Knin, some
20 went elsewhere, I don't know where, but I remained in Korenica.
21 Q. And approximately how long were you in Korenica during that
22 period in 1993?
23 A. Until the 31st of December, 1993, mostly in Korenica. From time
24 to time, I would go to Knin as well.
25 Q. At that time, did you receive a salary?
1 A. Yes. My salary was deposited on my chequing account in Belgrade
2 and my wife had access to that account.
3 Q. And just so the record is clear, your salary from whom?
4 A. I don't know now whether that was via the JNA. During the SFRY,
5 this was paid through the SSNO computing or accounting centre. When
7 that accounting centre or through the JNA.
8 Q. I'm sorry. My question was not clear. It was my fault.
9 Did you continue to receive your salary from the Army of
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. During those two months or month and a half --
13 A. At that time.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 During those two months or month and a half, what did you do
16 while you were in Krajina?
17 A. I didn't have any specific duties. I was unassigned. I would go
18 and visit my friends and colleagues at the Lika corps command, and I also
19 visited my friends, my colleagues, and fighters at the forward line of
20 defence towards Gospic Otocac.
21 Q. So your position is you spent your time there visiting; is that
23 A. No. They were not visits. They were more tours. These were
24 officers and soldiers who were under my command during the section or
25 zone staff in Lika, so I would go and visit or tour there to see how they
1 were doing, what the billeting was like, and so on.
2 Q. All right. Why did you leave -- at the end of December 1993, why
3 did you leave Korenica?
4 A. The winter that year was very cold and tough, and probably during
5 those tours I didn't hurt, but I probably in some way injured my knee.
6 It was very swollen. I had difficulty walking, and then I went to the
7 Knin hospital, and they sent me for home treatment in Belgrade.
8 Q. And in Belgrade
9 treatment for your knee?
10 A. After the New Year holiday, I went to the military medical
11 academy and started treatment there. I was put in plaster, which I had
12 for three weeks on my knee. After that, I waited for physical therapy at
13 home, and then after a month, month and a half, or two months I was in
14 physical therapy at the military medical centre, the VMA.
15 Q. This military medical centre that you refer to, was it part of
16 the Army of Yugoslavia
17 A. The military medical academy, I don't know if it's a part of the
18 army. I don't know if it's under the General Staff authority or the
19 Ministry of Defence authority, but in any event, it's a military
21 Q. All right. And after you received that physical therapy in early
22 1994, did you return to the Krajina?
23 A. No. I went back to my prior post at the 1st Army Command.
24 Q. All right. And just moving back to something you told us a
25 moment ago at page 16 of the transcript, you explained that when you were
1 in Korenica for those six weeks, you would go and visit the officers and
2 soldiers who had been under your command previously in Lika to see how
3 they were doing and the billeting and so forth. What did you do with the
4 information that you received from those officers and soldiers?
5 A. No, I didn't collect any information at that time. I simply went
6 to see their living conditions, the billeting. In view of the fact that
7 it was winter, I wanted to just see what their state of health was,
8 primarily the conditions of accommodation, but I did not really gather
9 any data, and I did not send that on to anyone.
10 Q. All right. If you could turn your --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to get a little more clarity here on
12 this point.
13 Sir, when you were in Korenica during that period, where was your
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have one. I was not
16 deployed anywhere. I would go to the corps command or to these corps
17 units just to see how my friends and acquaintances were doing. I didn't
18 have any specific task or assignment. I didn't have an office. I was
19 staying in my own house because I was born in Korenica.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And did you have -- you didn't have any superior
21 you were reporting to you while you were working for those six weeks?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, I didn't have a duty, a
23 specific duty to perform.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: In fact, when you came to Korenica, you didn't
25 even go to report to anybody within the command structure of the army to
1 say, Here am I, I've been transferred here.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I reported to the corps command
3 that I had arrived.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Lika Corps.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did they say to you? They didn't give you
7 any instructions as to where you are supposed to be deployed, or, rather,
8 let me say, what did he say to you in this sense?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said that I was not assigned to
10 the corps command, that I would probably be deployed in Knin, but no one
11 called me from Knin, and they knew that I was there, that I had arrived.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, after you received medical treatment in the
13 military hospital in Belgrade
14 again on some oral instruction, oral order by somebody, or how did it
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to the 1st Army because from
17 that post I was sent to Krajina, so it was quite logical that I would
18 come back to my home unit.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But when you come back to your home unit,
20 don't you come back on some order? You received an oral order to go to
21 the Krajina. Do you just abandon your position in the Krajina and come
22 back, or do you get an order to come back?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I came back from the Krajina
24 because of treatment at the military medical academy. When the treatment
25 there was completed, I went to the 1st Army Command again.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's my point precisely. You are in Belgrade
2 not on transfer; you are on Belgrade
3 still posted in the Krajina. On what basis do you then transfer yourself
4 from the duties in Krajina to the duties in the 1st Army? You told us at
5 the beginning of your testimony that you just don't change positions
6 without an order.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you thinking of 1993?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm thinking of the time when you went to the
9 1st Army after you received medical treatment in the military hospital.
10 I thought you said that was in early 1994.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I came back for medical
12 treatment, when the medical treatment was finished, I went once again to
13 the 1st Army command. I reported to my superior. I told him what the
14 situation was, that I was not given an establishment post, that I was not
15 assigned anywhere when I went to the Krajina, to any kind of duty, and
16 this is why I came back to the 1st Army Command.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it your evidence that in fact when you left the
18 Krajina to come back now, it was without an order, oral or written?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I left the Krajina I reported
20 to the commander of the Main Staff in Krajina. That was
21 General Novakovic. At the time, he was the commander of the Army of the
22 Republic of Serbian
23 and he agreed that I should go back. And then when I completed my
24 treatment, I reported to the 1st Army command to see what would happen
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You reported to Novakovic about your medical
2 condition, and he agreed that you go to Belgrade for medical treatment;
3 is that correct?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question to you is, is it your evidence that
6 you transferred from the Krajina army to the 1st Army without an order of
7 transfer? I'm not talking about an order or permission to go for medical
8 treatment. Is that your evidence, you didn't have this order, oral or
9 written, that you should go back to the 1st Army?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Novakovic when he agreed
11 for me to go for treatment did not tell me that after treatment I had to
12 return to the Krajina.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you that. My question to you is,
14 you went -- you left the Army of the Krajina and went to the
15 40th Personnel without an order to do so. Is that your evidence? I just
16 want to know that that is your evidence. I'm not saying it was right or
17 wrong or not right to do so. I'm just wanting to know, did you have an
19 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that what you
21 wanted to say was something else; however, it was recorded on line 21 he
22 left Krajina and returned to the 40th centre, and he said left Krajina
23 and returned to the 1st Army, as far as I could understand the witness.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And this is what I wanted to be sure
1 of and clarify. As far as I could understand his testimony, after his
2 return to Krajina and treatment at the VMA military academy, he didn't go
3 to the 40th centre. He went back to the 1st Army of the Army of
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
6 Sir, [Microphone not activated] -- I just want to know, it's a
7 very simple question, you can answer it by saying yes or no. When you
8 left the Krajina, the Army of the Republic of Krajina
9 the 1st Army, you had no order, whether oral or written, to do so, or did
10 you? Is that your evidence?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the oral order to return
12 from Krajina for treatment, this is what I received from
13 General Novakovic. He --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me interrupt you, sir. I'm not talking about
15 treatment, sir. I'm talking about joining the army, the 1st Army. You
16 had no order to go and join the 1st Army, did you?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, but that was my unit from which
18 I had left to go to Krajina.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but you had been ordered to go to the Army of
20 Republic of Krajina
21 You may proceed, Mr. Saxon.
22 MR. SAXON: I didn't hear an answer from the witness, but I will
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just proceed.
25 MR. SAXON: I saw the witness nod his head to Your Honours's
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can ask him what he meant by nodding his head.
3 MR. SAXON:
4 Q. What did you mean when you nodded your head, Mr. Orlic, a moment
5 ago to His Honour's question?
6 A. This meant that I returned to the command of the 1st Army, and I
7 really don't know who should have issued me an order to go back to the
8 command of the 1st Army. I was deployed in Krajina. When I left, I did
9 not have any establishment duty, and it was only logical for me to return
10 to the command of the 1st Army. I did the logical thing.
11 Q. Very well. Mr. Orlic, just so that our record is clear, a few
12 moments ago in response to a question from Judge Moloto, you explained
13 how when you went to the Krajina in November 1993, you reported to the
14 corps command of the Lika Corps. And just so that our record is clear,
15 to which army did the Like Corps belong to?
16 A. The Lika Corps belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina.
17 Q. Very well. Mr. Orlic, I'd like you to please turn your mind to
18 the year 1994, and particularly the month of May 1994. In the first part
19 of May 1994, where were you posted?
20 A. I was posted in the 1st Army. I was the assistant or deputy
21 chief of the intelligence department.
22 Q. At some point during May 1994, did your situation change?
23 A. You mean while I was in the command of the 1st Army, or generally
24 speaking in the month of May of that year?
25 Q. Well, I'll ask my question perhaps more specifically.
1 At some point in May 1994, did you leave the 1st Army and go
2 somewhere else?
3 A. Towards the end of May, maybe around the 20th May,
4 Lieutenant-Colonel Knezevic arrived from the Main Staff of the Army of
5 Republika Srpska Krajina. At the time, he was the chief of the
6 intelligence centre. That was on the intelligence department of the Army
7 of Republika Srpska Krajina. He informed me that General Celeketic who
8 at the time was the commander of the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina
9 wanted a word with me, and this had to do with my return to Krajina.
10 Q. All right. Mr. Orlic, if we could just go a little bit more
11 slowly, please. You mentioned that General Celeketic at that time was
12 the commander of the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina. Prior to going to
13 the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina, do you know where General Celeketic
15 A. Before becoming the commander of the Army of Republika Srpska
16 Krajina, he was in Western Slavonia. I suppose, I'm not sure, but I
17 believe that he had arrived from there.
18 Q. And do you know which army he belonged to prior to serving with
19 the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina?
20 A. He was a member of the Yugoslav People's Army, and later on he
21 was a member of the Army of Yugoslavia.
22 Q. Did this Lieutenant-Colonel Knezevic explain to you why
23 General Celeketic wanted a word with you?
24 A. Yes, he did. He told me that that was about my joining the
25 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina.
1 Q. And did he tell you -- did he tell you in what capacity you might
2 join that Main Staff?
3 A. There was a vacancy. The chief of the intelligence department in
4 the command of the Main Staff of the army was the vacant position.
5 Q. Earlier, you mentioned that Lieutenant-Colonel Knezevic arrived
6 from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina. At that
7 time in May 1994, where was the Main Staff of the Army of Republika
8 Srpska Krajina located?
9 A. In Knin.
10 Q. So did Lieutenant-Colonel Knezevic speak to you at your post in
11 the 1st Army in Belgrade
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And -- and were you able to leave your post at that time and go
14 to speak with General Celeketic?
15 A. I had to ask my superiors permission to go to Knin. I did ask
16 him. At that time, it was Colonel Pavlovic. He was the chief of the
17 intelligence department.
18 Q. And did you receive permission to go to Knin and speak with
19 General Celeketic?
20 A. I received permission, and I left around 25th of May. I went to
21 talk to General Celeketic.
22 Q. And in summary, can you describe the meeting that you had with
23 General Celeketic?
24 A. When I arrived in Knin, in General Celeketic's office we talked
25 about a possibility for me joining the Main Staff and taking over the
1 duty of the chief of the intelligence department there.
2 Q. And was it just you and General Celeketic at this meeting, or
3 were there others present?
4 A. Colonel Smiljanic was also there. At the time, he was the chief
5 of the security department. I don't remember and I'm not sure whether
6 General Loncar was also there. I don't think so, but I'm not sure.
7 General Loncar was the Chief of Staff at the time.
8 Q. And at that time what response, if any, did you give to General
10 A. I agreed that I would come to Knin and assume the duty. However,
11 before that I had to consult with my superiors, obviously.
12 Q. And when you're referring to your superiors, your superiors where
14 A. I'm referring to my superior in the command of the 1st Army,
15 Colonel Pavlovic.
16 Q. And upon consulting with Colonel Pavlovic, what did he tell you,
17 or what was the outcome of that discussion?
18 A. When I returned from Knin, I told him my -- I relayed to him our
19 conversation in Knin, and he agreed that I could go back to Krajina and
20 that I could take over the duty in question.
21 Q. Just so that we understand now, if General Celeketic was the
22 commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina and
23 you were serving in the 1st Army of the Army of Yugoslavia at that time,
24 what authority did General Celeketic have to offer you that post in the
25 Army of Republika Srpska Krajina?
1 A. When it comes to the offer of a post, he did not have any
2 authority. He only had the need to fill the post. He knew that I hailed
3 from the area, that I hailed from Lika. He also knew that I was an
4 educated intelligence officer. He probably had all that in mind, and
5 that's why he offered me the position. Whether he talked to anybody
6 else, the personnel centre or somebody else about my transfer, I wouldn't
7 know that.
8 Q. Okay. And can you recall, then, how --
9 MR. SAXON: Actually, Your Honour, I see the time. Would this be
10 a moment to take the first break?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: If it's convenient to you, sir.
12 MR. SAXON: Yes, sir.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at quarter to
14 11.00. Court adjourned.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Orlic, shortly before the break, you explained how after you
20 returned from your meeting with General Celeketic, you spoke to your
21 superior in the 1st Army, Colonel Pavlovic, and that he agreed that you
22 could go to Knin to take up this position in the Army of the Republika
23 Srpska Krajina.
24 Can you recall, or do you know, who or whom actually made the
25 arrangements for you to go to Knin?
1 A. No. I don't know who it was. In legal terms, I don't know who
2 organised my departure. However, I returned to Knin with
3 Lieutenant-Colonel Knezevic.
4 Q. Before you returned to Knin, do you recall if you received --
5 while you were in Belgrade
6 calls about this matter?
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. I don't remember. I don't think so.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were you given any written order of transfer to
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you receive an oral order?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received an oral consent of my
15 superior, Colonel Pavlovic. He approved with my departure.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Following up on Judge Moloto's question, did you receive any
19 other verbal communication from within the Army of Yugoslavia about you
20 going to Knin?
21 A. No, none.
22 Q. Can you recall when you went to Knin to take up this post in the
23 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina?
24 A. I arrived on the 1st of June. I believe that it was on the
25 1st of June, 1994.
1 Q. And when you went -- when you left your position in the VJ
2 1st Army and went to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska
3 Krajina on that day, did you join the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina on
4 a permanent basis?
5 A. I joined on a permanent basis, I don't know.
6 Q. Well, were you expected to remain with the Army of Republika
7 Srpska Krajina until the end of your career?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. All right. What were your duties while you worked in Knin in the
10 Main Staff?
11 A. I was the chief of the intelligence department of the Army of
12 Republika Srpska Krajina.
13 Q. And in that capacity, did you exchange information with other
15 A. You mean in the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina, within the army
16 or outside of it?
17 Q. I mean outside of the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina.
18 A. Yes. I exchanged intelligence with the representatives of the
19 Army of Republika Srpska and intelligence administration of the Army of
21 Q. And could you describe a little bit. What kind of information
22 would you exchange?
23 A. That was intelligence about the situation, the movements of the
24 Croatian army units in Bosnia
25 Q. And during your duties in Knin in 1994, did you have occasion to
1 request information from the Army of Yugoslavia?
2 A. I had such occasion. If something was not clear to me as
3 regarded the movements of the units of the aforementioned armies, and if
4 I did not have any concrete intelligence research from the intelligence
5 centre or from other organs of the Army of Republika Srpska, I would
6 request information from the intelligence administration or the
7 intelligence organs of the Army of Republika Srpska.
8 Q. Just so the record is clear, because I had asked -- the question
9 was whether you had requested information from the Army of Yugoslavia,
10 but in the English translation at the end of your last response --
11 A. The intelligence administration of the Army of Yugoslavia, yes.
12 Q. Ah, thank you very much. And when you made such requests, did
13 you receive the kinds of information that you requested from the Army of
15 A. Yes, I did receive such information.
16 Q. How about the Army of Republika Srpska? Did you have occasion to
17 request information from the Army of Republika Srpska?
18 A. Most often I requested information from the corps of the Army
19 Republika Srpska. Its command was in Drvar. I had personal contacts
20 with some of the members of the intelligence centre under the command of
21 Lieutenant-Colonel Knezevic. From time to time, I would also request
22 information from the Main Staff or whatever it was called from the
23 intelligence organ of the Army of Republika Srpska there.
24 Q. And would your request for information from the Army of
25 Republika Srpska be fulfilled?
1 A. Usually that was the case. That was always the case.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I see you looking at me.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, just one little point I want to get cleared.
4 Sir, after this transfer, now, after you took up position with
5 the Main
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My salary was paid into my current
7 account in Belgrade
8 supplement from the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina, and that was to
9 cover the cost of my accommodation and living in Knin.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question was which army paid your salary?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Army of Yugoslavia.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
14 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. During the autumn of 1994, Mr. Orlic, did you become aware of the
16 activities of a unit known as the 5th Corps of the ABiH?
17 A. Yes. We monitored the activities and movements of those units,
18 as we did of all the other units of the Army of Bosnia and Croatia
19 Q. Did the activities of the 5th Corps have any effect on your
20 reporting during the autumn of 1994, frequency of your reporting?
21 A. Yes, in view of the fact that the activities, i.e., combat
22 activities started sometime in September.
23 Q. And when you're referring to combat activities starting sometime
24 in September, combat activities between whom?
25 A. On the one hand we had the 5th Corps, and on -- and the Army of
1 Republika Srpska; and on the other hand, some of the units of the Army of
2 Republika Srpska Krajina.
3 Q. And so how often, then, would you -- were you reporting to the
4 Army of Yugoslavia
6 A. Not often. I really can't say now how many times a month that
7 was, but it wasn't very frequent, no.
8 Q. Even during September and October of 1994?
9 A. It was more frequent then, yes.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. But I really couldn't say how frequent.
12 Q. Very well.
13 Mr. Orlic, while you served in the Main Staff of the Army of
14 Republika Srpska Krajina during 1994, did you ever receive orders from
15 the Army of Yugoslavia, either verbal or written?
16 A. No, I never received any oral or written order from the Army of
18 Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina.
19 Q. Mr. Orlic, while you served in the Army of Republika Srpska
20 Krajina in 1994, if you had received an order from the Army of Yugoslavia
21 to return to Belgrade
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that this is based on the
24 same question Mr. Saxon put at the beginning and which I objected to as
25 speculation. The Prosecutor asked whether he received; he said no, and
1 now he is asking the witness to speculate.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, this witness was a professional officer.
3 He knows what his state of mind is and was at the time as well as his
4 experience and what his duties were, so this is not asking for
6 In addition, Your Honour, there is precedent here for such kinds
7 of questions. I'd respectfully direct the Chamber's attention to the
8 proceedings against Ljube Boskoski and Johan Tarculovski, case number
9 IT-04-82-T; the transcript of proceedings from the 25th of May, 2007;
10 pages 1443 to 1445 of the transcript, where counsel asked a police
11 officer from Macedonia
12 "In 2001, would you have carried out an operation without an
13 order from your superior?"
14 And that question was permitted. And it's the Prosecution's
15 submission that we are in the same situation here today. We are really
16 going to the state of mind of the witness. I'm not asking for
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] just very briefly, Your Honours. I
20 think that what Mr. Saxon has now given us as an example we cannot
21 assess. We don't know if there were any objections and in which context
22 it was asked and granted.
23 What I'm concerned about, Your Honours, is that questions like
24 this can open up Pandora's box of questions of what would happen if. I
25 can put scores of such questions regarding to status, and if we are
1 talking about the state of consciousness and mind of the witness at the
2 time, and what he says about that now is something else. So the answers
3 that the witness could give us now about his state of mind ten years ago
4 would not have the adequate weight and would not be of assistance to the
5 Chamber in determining the truth.
6 It boils down to a situation of classic speculation, and then I'm
7 afraid that if we get into these questions and such a practice is
8 permitted now, the Trial Chamber will make it possible for many
9 assumptions to be brought in. This case is important because of
10 statutory rights and census, so this is the gist of what the court has to
11 deal with and not based on something that the witness assumes would
12 happen if something would happen.
13 Now we have checked the transcript from this Boskoski trial, and
14 we see there was no objection to a question put in this way. So we are
15 just informing the Chamber about that particular matter in relation to
16 the question that Mr. Saxon is putting.
17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if I may.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.
19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, questions about a state of mind that a
20 witness may have had or had years ago are very common in this Tribunal.
21 Were you afraid at that time; this is -- you know, this is the case where
22 we have a person who lived a particular kind of life with a particular
23 kind of responsibility, and he is --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
25 MR. SAXON: I am finished, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, the question "were you afraid at that
2 time" is not a speculative question. It's a fact question. Through your
3 experience, through your life, at that time were you afraid? If he was
4 afraid: Yes, I was afraid at that time. He is telling you something
5 that did happen. He is not speculating on what would happen if something
7 Now, the question as you formulated is classically speculative.
8 And the fact that another Chamber in this Tribunal allowed the question,
9 particularly under circumstances where there was no objection, does not
10 mean that this Trial Chamber must do the same. And in fact, you are not
11 even referring to -- I don't know whether that's a Trial Chamber or an
12 Appeals Chamber question. I would suspect it's a Trial Chamber given the
13 fact that it's a trial thing.
14 MR. SAXON: It is, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And this Chamber is not bound by the decision of
16 that Chamber. That decision may just be a passive decision, but that is
17 also not a decision. It's a just a question being asked, no objection,
18 and the witness answers, without necessarily the Chamber exercising its
19 mind on the question because it was not raised an objection.
20 MR. SAXON: Then I'm withdrawing my question, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.
22 MR. SAXON:
23 Q. Mr. Orlic, how long did you remain within the Army of Republika
24 Srpska Krajina in Knin in 1994?
25 A. I stayed until the 31st of December, 1994. I came back to
2 Q. Why did you leave your position with the Army of Republika Srpska
4 A. This is one of the reasons why, amongst other things, I went to
5 the Krajina. At the time, my mother was in Korenica over the summer, and
6 she came back in -- she came back to Belgrade
7 one of the reasons, since she was quite sick. At the time she was 91
8 years old, and this is mostly why I asked to go back.
9 Q. And did you receive permission? When you say "go back," did you
10 receive permission to go back?
11 A. Yes. I talked about it for awhile with my superior, General
12 Loncar. The conversation took over a month, and the request for my
13 retirement I submitted I think in October 1994.
14 Q. And when you refer to a request for retirement, retirement from
15 who or from what?
16 A. Retirement from the Army of Yugoslavia
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can clarify this in the
19 cross-examination, but I think that it would be proper in relation to the
20 response on page 36, line 7, when the witness said to my superior General
21 Loncar. Who was General Loncar? Where was he at that time?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want to clarify that, sir? That's not an
23 objection. He is just suggesting to you on how to ask your questions.
24 MR. SAXON: I'm perfectly willing to do that if counsel asks.
25 Q. You said you spoke to General Loncar. Who was he at that -- and
1 what position did General Loncar have in the autumn of 1994?
2 A. General Loncar was the Chief of the Main Staff of the Army of the
3 Republika -- of Srpska Krajina. He was my superior while I was in the
4 Krajina. I could not return from the Krajina without his approval.
5 Q. Mr. Orlic, how would you describe your relationship with the Army
6 of Yugoslavia
7 A. I don't know. I was not in any relationship with them. I was
8 subordinated to the Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina.
9 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness what is part of
10 Exhibit P1683. This is document ID in English, 0611-4947; and in B/C/S,
11 it would be page 103.
12 Q. You see this document in front of you, Mr. Orlic?
13 A. Yes. Should I read it?
14 Q. Just a moment, please. You see your name at the top left-hand
16 A. Yes, this is my document and my request.
17 Q. Is that your signature on the bottom right-hand corner?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. It's titled "Cessation of Professional Service Due to Early
20 Retirement, Own Request," sent to the 1st Army Command. The 1st Army
21 Command, was that part of the Army of Yugoslavia?
22 A. The command of the 1st Army was part of the Army of Yugoslavia.
23 However, I submitted my request via the personnel section of the Army of
24 the Republika Srpska Krajina. I submitted my request to them.
25 Q. All right. And --
1 A. It was not directly sent to the army command.
2 Q. Okay. And can you take a look at the third paragraph, please,
3 sentence beginning with the word "Currently ..." Can you read that
4 sentence out loud to us, please?
5 A. "Currently, I'm temporarily assigned to the 40th Personnel Centre
6 of the Army of Yugoslavia, and I'm in the Main Staff of the Serbian Army
7 of" -- "of the Army of the Serbian Krajina."
8 Q. My question for you is, was the 40th Personnel Centre of the Army
9 of Yugoslavia
10 A. No, the 40th Personnel Centre was not part of the Army of the
11 Republika Srpska Krajina.
12 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness from the same exhibit -- we
13 can take that exhibit away, please. Can we show the witness from the
14 same exhibit, in English it would be doc ID 0611-4931; and in B/C/S, 087,
15 at the end. And if we could in the English version move down just a
16 little bit. Thank you.
17 Q. Do you recognise this document, Mr. Orlic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And --
20 A. This is a document that was ...
21 Q. That was what?
22 A. A document granting or recognising my work or stay in the Army of
23 the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.
24 Q. And it says under the word "decision," it says that Colonel Rade
25 Orlic is granted the right to -- actually, in the first line it refers to
1 Colonel Rade Orlic, son of Sava
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know what Military Post 4001 was?
5 A. No. No, I don't know which military post that is, if it's the
6 military post of the centre or a military post of the Army of the
7 Republic of the Serbian Krajina. I don't know.
8 Q. All right. In the second line, it says:
9 "... is granted the right to years of double pensionable service
10 for the period from 8 October 1994
11 Do you know why you had the right to double pensionable service
12 for that time?
13 A. This was a decision of the government of Yugoslavia for all
14 members who were in the Army of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina to
15 recognise their wartime service.
16 Q. Very well.
17 MR. SAXON: Can we remove that document, please, and show the
18 witness, again, from P1683, document ID 0611-4935-091. This is the
19 document, yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Counsel is asked to state the B/C/S page.
21 MR. SAXON: The B/C/S page I believe is 91, 9-1.
22 Q. Mr. Orlic, we see this is an order of the Chief of the General
23 Staff of the Yugoslavia
24 this document?
25 A. Yes. This is the document on the cessation of professional
1 military service. Actually, it's my retirement document.
2 Q. Why didn't you retire from the Army of the Republika Srpska
3 Krajina or in the Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina?
4 A. I don't know why not. I assume that because I was sent from the
5 Army of Yugoslavia
6 logical for me to ask for retirement from the Army of the Republic of
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that we didn't hear due
9 to interference.
10 MR. SAXON:
11 Q. Mr. Orlic, the interpreters may have missed the very last part of
12 your response. Can you repeat that?
13 A. I said that I was sent by the Army of Yugoslavia, even though
14 that was at my own request and in agreement with General Celeketic. But
15 still, I went to the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina from the
16 Army of Yugoslavia
17 request retirement from a professional service from the Army of
19 Krajina did not in any way participate in any retirement of professional
20 officers or personnel.
21 Q. And do you recall the date when you officially retired?
22 A. When I retired?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. This was the 30th or the 31st of March, 1995. That's when my
25 active military service stopped.
1 Q. Did you happen to sign something on that date?
2 A. Yes. I signed the order on the cessation of professional
3 military service.
4 Q. And where did you sign that order?
5 A. At the 1st Army Command.
6 Q. And that's in Belgrade
7 A. Yes, in Belgrade
8 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Mr. Orlic. I have no further questions at
9 this time.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
11 Mr. Lukic.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Orlic, good morning. My name is Novak
14 Lukic, and I'm going to be asking you certain questions on behalf of
15 Mr. Perisic's Defence.
16 Before we start, I have a warning both for you and for myself to
17 wait after my question before starting your answer to allow the
18 interpreters to interpret into English. I'll also do the same thing
19 after your answer. Everything has to be adequately interpreted, you
21 A. Good afternoon. I understand.
22 Q. I know that if nothing else, at least during the last years of
23 your active service, you were actively involved in intelligence
24 activities; am I right?
25 A. Yes, you are right.
1 Q. For the Trial Chamber and for us to be able to grasp the essence
2 of the intelligence service, I'm going to tell you, and you tell me
3 whether you agree with me, that in general terms, military and
4 intelligence service deals with a collection and processing of
5 intelligence on the enemy military force and on the threats to the army
6 that you are a member of; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When I say that intelligence activity is a planned and targeted
9 activity by appropriate military and other organs and units to collect
10 and process intelligence on a potential (in peacetime) and real enemy
11 during combat -- to avoid any confusion, I've been reading from a
12 textbook. This is a textbook definition.
13 A. Yes, you are right.
14 Q. The goal of any intelligence activity is to discovery the
15 economic and military power, the intention of the enemy as a whole, and
16 the intentions of each and every of its units in particular.
17 A. Yes, you are correct. In other words, everything that may have
18 an effect on the development, equipment, and engagement of the military
19 force of any other country.
20 Q. As you have already testified today, for a while you worked as an
21 intelligence organ, i.e., the assistant chief of the intelligence for the
22 1st Army of the Army of Yugoslavia; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, you are right.
24 Q. One of the tasks and objectives of your activity, the activity
25 you were involved in, was to provide your commander, the commander of the
1 1st Army with information and intelligence which was important for the
2 proper functioning of the 1st Army of the Army of Yugoslavia.
3 A. Yes, you are right.
4 Q. At the time when you were a member of the intelligence organ of
5 the 1st Army, you received and exchanged information about the situation
6 in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Because that situation particularly in Bosnia-Herzegovina and
10 of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; right?
11 A. Yes, absolutely correct.
12 Q. I assume that you were particularly interested in information
13 about the regions which were in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina
15 1st Army; right?
16 A. Yes. Those were the forces across the Drina and the forces in
17 East Slavonia
18 Q. Will you agree with me, Mr. Orlic, that in military and strategic
19 terms, it is in the best interest of an army when it comes to
20 intelligence and completely customary to exchange information with other
21 allied militaries?
22 A. Yes. This is customary, and such intelligence is gathered and
23 obtained in various ways.
24 Q. What ways? Could you just tell us briefly?
25 A. By and large, we are talking about the activities in the regions
1 around the border undertaken by the friendly army; second of all, when it
2 comes to the Army of Yugoslavia, it is regular exchange of intelligence
3 and information between military attaches, mixed reconnaissance, troop
4 reconnaissance of the units in contact, and so on and so forth.
5 Q. Very well. Now that we have obtained this picture, now that we
6 are a bit more clear about what the intelligence organ did, I've always
7 had a problem distinguishing between the security and intelligence
8 organs, but I believe that we are now clear and that the Trial Chamber
9 will understand what you are talking about. Now we are going to move on
10 to the answers you provided to Mr. Saxon's questions, and let's try and
11 focus and analyse your stay and your status in Krajina.
12 In factual terms, as we have heard from you, you were in Krajina
13 three times, and every time you were engaged in your professional
14 officer's duties; is that correct?
15 A. You're right.
16 Q. The first time you were there was at the time when the former
17 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia still existed before the Federal
18 Republic of Yugoslavia
19 system of the armed forces of the SFRY; right?
20 A. Yes, right.
21 Q. Go on. You were saying?
22 A. The new Territorial Defence was then established in the
23 territories of Serbian Krajina which were inhabited predominantly by the
24 Serbian population. The previous Territorial Defence which had comprised
25 the entire Republic of Croatia
1 another form of armed forces of the Yugoslav People's Army, and the
2 system had to be re-established.
3 Q. At the time as an officer of the Yugoslav People's Army, you were
4 first a member of the Territorial Defence of Serbia; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then the newly established Territorial Defence of Krajina
7 became part of the system of the armed forces of the SFRY; right?
8 A. Yes, you are right.
9 Q. And that was at the time and the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina
10 was not established yet, and you said that you actually returned when
11 that army started being established.
12 A. It was still the time of Territorial Defence, which was part of
13 the armed forces of the SFRY. After that when the Army of Yugoslavia
14 withdrew from the area, what remained were territorial units of the
15 Republika Srpska Krajina, which later on became the Army of Republika
16 Srpska Krajina.
17 Q. And the first time you went there, you had sought consent from
18 your superior in the Yugoslav People's Army or in Serbia. In any case,
19 it was part of a command chain of the armed forces of the Socialist
20 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; right?
21 A. Yes. My superior at the time was General Djokic who was the
22 commander of the Territorial Defence of Serbia. I asked his approval to
23 go to Krajina in order to establish the zone staff, which was part of the
24 new Territorial Defence of the SFRY.
25 Q. Very well. Now I'm going to have a few questions about your
1 second departure to Krajina.
2 As you have described for us, the second time you went there was
3 during the period when the legal and factual conditions had changed. The
4 period in question is between 16 November and 31st December, 1993. Did I
5 understand you correctly?
6 A. Yes, you did.
7 Q. That was a time when you were a member of the Army of Yugoslavia,
8 a member of the 1st Army.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the time when the Serbian Army of Krajina had been
11 established and existed; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, it was already in place. The Serbian Army of Krajina
13 already existed.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now show the witness the Law
15 on the Serbian Army of Krajina. In order to speed my examination along,
16 I prepared some things. Just a moment, if everybody can bear with me,
18 This is 65 ter 6367, page 11 in B/C/S and page 4 in the English
19 version of the document. Can we scroll down a little. I need Article 1
20 of the army law. Yes, that's it. Thank you very much.
21 Q. I'm now going to read Article 1:
22 "The Serb Army of Krajina, hereinafter the army, is an armed
23 force which defends the sovereignty, territory, and independence of the
24 Republic of Serbian
1 A. Yes, right.
2 Q. This article of the law demonstrates that the object of
3 protection and all the activities of the Army of Serbian Krajina is the
4 territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now I'm going to read Article 3 in the same law. It's on the
7 same page in the upper right corner in B/C/S:
8 "Command in" -- Article 3: "Command in the army is based on the
9 principles of the unity of command in terms of the engagement of forces
10 and resources, single command, and the duty to execute decisions, orders,
11 and commands of the superior commanding officer."
12 The next paragraph:
13 "The army is the under the command by the president of the
14 republic pursuant to the RSK constitutions and decisions of the Supreme
15 Defence Council."
16 Mr. Orlic, I assume that this Article 3 - which is a universal
17 one affecting all armies, in my opinion - says clearly that we have a
18 single chain of command in the Army of the Republic of the Serbian
19 Krajina; is that correct?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
21 MR. SAXON: Simply as page 47, lines 11 to 12, I'm not
22 necessarily disagreeing with what Mr. Lukic just said, but I would just
23 simply ask that counsel refrain from giving his opinion and we stick to
24 the evidence being led from the witness.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I accept the remark by my learned
2 friend, and I apologise.
3 Q. Mr. Orlic, what it says in Article 5, does that represent the
4 essential principles of the functioning -- Article 3, excuse me, the
5 essential principles of the functioning of the Serbian Army of the
6 Republic of the Srpska Krajina?
7 A. Yes. The Republika Srpska at the time was formed as a state, and
8 it had all the attributes of statehood. It had its own army, its own
9 judicial system, all the things that a state has. So these articles
10 would apply just like in any other country to everything that applies to
11 the armed forces of any other country.
12 Q. What does the principle of single command stand for, unity of
14 A. Unity of command stands for the idea that the order by a superior
15 officer must be executed, and here what we have is command by the command
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please. We have an
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, I'm sorry.
20 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, my concern is that this witness has been
21 called as a fact witness.
22 I will withdraw my objection at this time. Well -- I will
23 withdraw my objection at this time, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you going to reinstate it at some other time?
25 MR. SAXON: Hopefully not.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Hopefully not.
2 Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm not going to go into much theory
4 with the witness, but I just wanted to clarify certain facts which are
5 important for me in this case.
6 Q. This means that the person who is in the Army of the Republika
7 Srpska Krajina has one superior in that army; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. And the supreme commander of that army, the highest in authority
10 is the president of the Republic of Srpska Krajina.
11 A. Yes. At the time it was President Martic, at that time. He was
12 the commander-in-chief.
13 Q. And there is nobody above him in this chain of command in this
15 A. No. He has his own counsel for defence, and there is the
16 commander of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina who executes all
17 the orders.
18 Q. All right. That army commander and his superior -- is his
19 subordinate; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When you were there for the second time briefly, and as you said
22 you were not assigned any duties, you were part of the Serbian Krajina
23 army; is that correct? But you were not assigned to any particular duty
24 nor were you given any kind of establishment rank in that army; is that
1 A. Yes, that is correct, but I was sent there. I went there, I was
2 there, but I did not have any establishment post or position.
3 Q. Judge Moloto asked you during the examination-in-chief if you had
4 received any order to go back to the Army of Yugoslavia, and what I
5 understood was that you had talked to the commander, Commander Novakovic,
6 and that he allowed you or gave his permission for you to return to
8 A. Yes. Because of illness, I was sent for home treatment by the
9 military hospital in Knin. I was sent to Belgrade, but still I had to
10 have permission from Commander Novakovic to do this because I did not
11 have another superior. I was not deployed or assigned anywhere, so he
12 was the only person that I could ask for this permission from.
13 Q. And you told him that after treatment you wanted to go back to
14 the Army of Yugoslavia; is that correct?
15 A. No, we didn't discuss that. All he did was permit me to return
16 to Belgrade
17 Q. This is what I'm asking you. He did not order you to return to
18 the Krajina and to serve again in the Serbian Army of the Krajina; is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes. He didn't order me to do that, and that is why I reported
21 to the command of the 1st Army.
22 Q. Neither did he in any way ask you when you came to the 1st Army
23 -- when you returned to the Army of Yugoslavia from the hospital, that
24 is, to go to the Serbian army in the Krajina. He didn't ask you to do
25 that, did he?
1 A. No, nobody asked me to go back there, no.
2 Q. He didn't issue an order to that effect nor was he against you
3 going to the Army of Yugoslavia; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that is correct. He wasn't opposed to me going back to the
5 Army of Yugoslavia
6 Q. We're talking about his oral permission for you to go to
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The same as when you testified on page 28, line 9, today, that
10 when you received oral permission from your superior in the Army of
12 Army of Srpska Krajina, that, again, was an oral order, was it not?
13 A. Yes, it was.
14 Q. Now, we are going to your third stay in the Serbian Army of the
15 Krajina and service. When you -- let's clarify this. When you became
16 the chief of the security organ of the Main Staff of the Serbian Army of
17 the Krajina, you served from then on in the Serbian Army of the Krajina;
18 is that correct?
19 A. One correction: The chief of the intelligence department. And
20 when I assumed my duties there, I was serving in the Army of the Republic
21 of Srpska Krajina until I returned.
22 Q. That is correct. So this duty and the deployment to the
23 establishment post that you referred to just now was something that was
24 given to you by the superior officer in the Army of Srpska Krajina.
25 A. Yes. When I was posted as the chief of the intelligence
1 department of the Serbian Army of the Krajina by the Krajina command,
2 that's how it happened.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at document 1D00-9116 on
4 the e-court.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Stop before we do that. What do you want to do
6 with 6367?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have that document --
8 actually, I deliberately mentioned the first few articles. The law is
9 quite detailed, and I would just like to have this first page of the Law
10 of the Army of the Serbian Republic
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The first page of 6367 is admitted into evidence.
12 May it please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D85.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
15 Now, what document did you want on the screen, Mr. Lukic, now,
16 after that one?
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is 1D00-9116 in the
18 e-court. And for the court officer in Belgrade, the document is marked
19 ERN 0611-4939. This is again a document that's part of the personnel
20 dossier, but I don't know if it's been admitted.
21 Q. Mr. Orlic, the heading of this document says "order number ...
22 assistant to the commander for security-intelligence." Can you please
23 look at the signature. Who signed this document?
24 A. The document was signed by the assistant commander for security
25 intelligence tasks, Colonel Dusan Smiljanic, and if I may comment?
1 Q. I'm going to ask you do that anyway, but can you please answer
2 one more question before that. Is this a document that was issued by the
3 Serbian Army of the Krajina?
4 A. Yes, that is a document issued by the Serbian Army of the
6 Q. In this document, you are being appointed to the Main Staff of
7 the Serbian Army of the Krajina in the security intelligence sector to
8 the duty of chief of the intelligence department; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And now go ahead. You wanted to say something. This was
11 important to me, but if you have a comment, please go ahead.
12 A. I wanted to say something about this document. This was an
13 attempt of a sort and a reflection of an intention to form a sector or
14 department for intelligence and security which encompassed both security
15 and intelligence assignments. However, this never actually was
16 implemented, and Colonel Smiljanic was not my superior, even though he
17 did sign this document. These two departments actually were separate
18 throughout that whole period, and my superior was General Loncar who was
19 the chief of the command staff.
20 Q. From what I understand, in that army the intelligence organ has
21 the same, let's say, level as the security organ, and they are both
22 subordinated to the Chief of Staff; is that correct or not?
23 A. The security organ is subordinated to the commander, and the
24 intelligence organ is subordinated to the Chief of Staff.
25 Q. Yes, that is correct. In any case, do you agree with me that
1 from the time you were appointed to this post in the Serbian Army of the
2 Krajina, perhaps even before that, but in any case, from that point on
3 you were in the command -- chain of command of the Serbian Army of the
4 Krajina in the Main Staff, or under the Main Staff.
5 A. Yes. From the time I came and assumed this duty until I left, I
6 was within the chain of command of the Army of the Republic of the
7 Serbian Krajina.
8 Q. And you had nothing to do with the chain of command from the Army
9 of Yugoslavia
10 A. No connection and no duties arising from that did I have in
11 relation to the Army of Yugoslavia.
12 Q. Pursuant to Article 3 of the Law of the Army of the Serbian
13 Republic of the Srpska Krajina, all orders, commands, and information and
14 reports were sent to your superior in that army; is that correct?
15 A. All the orders were received in the Army of the Republic of
16 Srpska Krajina from them.
17 Q. And among these orders, return reports were sent to your
18 superiors in that army; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, maybe you might clarify this with the
21 witness. I'm not quite sure at line 9, page 54, line 10, who that "them"
22 are: "All the orders were received in the Army of Republika Srpska
23 Krajina from them."
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Orlic, you heard. I just want us to be quite precise. When
1 you replied, you said: "All orders are received in the Army of the
2 Serbian Krajina from them." When you say "from them," who did you mean?
3 A. I'm sorry. Yes, all the orders were received from the command of
4 the Army of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document
6 for admission, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D86.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. In the examination-in-chief, you explained that throughout the
14 whole time that you were in the Serbian Army of the Krajina, you received
15 your salary in Yugoslavia
16 accounting centre. And what I am saying is that it is the accounting
17 centre of the Ministry of Defence. Do you remember anything about that?
18 Do you recall who issued your salary payments, or perhaps you don't
20 A. During the SFRY, the accounting centre was under the Secretariat
21 for National Defence. They would be issuing the allocated salaries for
22 the Army of Yugoslavia, the Territorial Defence for the retired
23 personnel. And I assume that that's what was going on when the Army of
25 Q. But you were also receiving some sort of supplement from the
1 Serbian Army of Srpska Krajina or from the authorities there. Can you
2 please tell us what that was?
3 A. The Serbian Republic
4 printing its own money, and so they paid all members of the Army of the
5 Republika Srpska Krajina who were there permanently and were part of that
6 army. Those of us who -- for example, I, who was there, I was receiving
7 a supplement to cover the cost of my expenses in the Krajina.
8 Q. I assume, then, that the money that was at your -- on your
9 account in Belgrade
10 meant for the expenses of your family. Is that what they were using if
11 you didn't need this money while you were in the Krajina?
12 A. Yes, that is correct. They had to have some means of livelihood.
13 Q. We have already heard a lot of evidence here relating to the
14 period of hyperinflation and the economic situation in that time. Do you
15 recall that during 1993 and 1994 if this salary that your family was
16 receiving in Yugoslavia
17 livelihood of your family in view of the hyperinflation and the general
18 worthlessness of the money?
19 A. Well, if my wife managed to take out the salary on the same day
20 that it was deposited on the account, she could perhaps have a
21 counter-value of German marks. If she withdrew this money the following
22 day, then the amount would be less, and it was very difficult to live on
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we could take
25 our break now. I don't have too many questions. I just wanted to inform
1 you, but I just wanted to actually go through my questions at the break.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at half past
3 12.00. Court adjourned.
4 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Before I proceed, Your Honours, I
8 have a slight correction on page 56, line 15. The witness said, when I
9 asked him about the salary, he said 10 German marks. Now it's correct,
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Orlic, can you still hear me? Can we proceed?
14 A. Yes, I can hear you, sir.
15 Q. In answering to my learned friend's questions, you answered about
16 the intelligence jobs you did in the Serbian Army of Krajina, and I'll
17 proceed along these lines. Your superior, as you said, was the Chief of
18 Staff, Colonel, later on General, Loncar; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Your subordinate in the command chain was
21 Lieutenant-Colonel Knezevic; am I right. I'm not sure about his rank,
23 A. Yes, he was lieutenant-colonel.
24 Q. And now --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but was he subordinate? The witness is
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's how I understood that.
3 Q. What was the duty of Lieutenant-Colonel Knezevic? What did he
4 do? What was his job?
5 A. Lieutenant-Colonel Knezevic was the chief of the intelligence
6 centre, which was subordinated to me personally.
7 Q. Very well. On your examination-in-chief and at the beginning of
8 cross-examination, you spoke about the duties of an intelligence organ.
9 I'm interested in the exchange of information that you had with the
10 intelligence organs of the Army of Yugoslavia and the intelligence organs
11 of the Army of Republika Srpska.
12 The information in question is -- the information that was
13 exchanged among the three armies, it was about the communication between
14 the three armies; am I right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. For example, when you needed information from a certain army, you
17 could receive such an order, an order to that effect only from your
18 superior Loncar in the form of an order.
19 A. No, no. This was my obligation as an intelligence organ. In
20 case I did not have enough indicia or indicators for any activities that
21 was happening on the part of the other armies, I had to request from the
22 intelligence organ of the Army of Republika Srpska or the intelligence
23 administration of the General Staff the missing information through my
24 direct communication with them.
25 Q. However, that was still within the function that you had the Army
1 of the Republic of Yugoslavia
2 A. Yes, that was my function.
3 Q. Did you communicate with them directly or in some other form?
4 What was your communication like? Did you --
5 A. We communicated by way of telegrams.
6 Q. Did you ever communicate with anybody from the intelligence
7 administration personally, orally, by phone?
8 A. No, never. We never spoke by phone. None of them ever came to
9 Knin or to the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina.
10 Q. My learned friend Saxon asked you about General Celeketic, what
11 his status was; that was on page 24. You answered that according to what
12 you know, he had joined from the Army of Yugoslavia.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like the witness to be
14 shown 65 ter 6126.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before I see the document, may I
16 provide a somewhat more detailed explanation or answer? Before becoming
17 the commander of the Army of Republika of Serbian Krajina, I believe that
18 he was in Western Slavonia, also a member of the Army of Republika Srpska
19 Krajina. I believe that that's what I said.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Yes, that's how I understood you. I don't know whether you've
22 seen the document before. Take a moment to look at it.
23 A. This document applies to Dusan Loncar; right?
24 Q. Yes, you're right. I apologise. But still, we can have a look
25 at the document. Dusan Loncar, who is the Chief of Staff in the Main
1 Staff of the Serbian Army of Krajina, this was during the period when you
2 were still there; right? Do you know that he was promoted by
3 Milan Martic and that he received the rank of general and that decision
4 was made by the president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?
5 A. Yes, I know that. I know that he was a general of the Army of
6 Republika Srpska Krajina.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the document please be admitted
8 into evidence.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D87.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now, can the witness please be shown
14 P171 -- or rather, 00171. This is the document referring to Celeketic
15 that I originally had in mind.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. I don't know whether you've seen this document before. Again,
19 before you were appointed and left and joined the Serbian Vojina of
20 Krajina in 1994, do you know that General Celeketic was appointed the
21 commander of the Serbian Army of Krajina by the president of the Serbian
22 Republic of Krajina
23 A. Yes, I am aware of that.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We no longer need that document, and
1 can I now please show the witness 1D00-9160, for the court officer.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you want to do with this one?
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's already in evidence.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You called it 00171. You started off with saying
5 P171, then you said 00171. Now, I don't know whether it's -- is it a P
6 or is it --
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise. It was a P
8 document, yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Of course. I'm going to repeat the
11 number, but I am afraid that the court officer in Belgrade will not be
12 able to find the document under that number because we just introduced
13 it. The number is 1D00-9160. The -- and for the court officer in
15 26 May 1994
16 Q. Witness, do you have the document in front of you, the one that
17 I've just cited?
18 A. About Mr. Smiljanic?
19 Q. Yes, correct. That's the Dusan Smiljanic who signed your
20 decision when you were given a duty in the Serbian Army of Krajina; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And it arises from this document that on the 26th of May, 1994,
24 he was appointed the assistant commander for security and intelligence of
25 the Serbian Army of Krajina; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that decision on his appointment was signed by
3 General Celeketic?
4 A. Correct.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have -- can we please have
6 this document admitted into evidence.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D88, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Orlic, earlier today you described the way you submitted your
13 request to be pensioned off, and you said who you've submitted it to. On
14 page 36 of today's transcript, you said that before you submitted your
15 written request that the Prosecutor showed you, that you had addressed
16 your superiors in the Serbian Army of Krajina and asked for their consent
17 to be pensioned off or, rather, to submit your request for retirement; is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I believe that it was either Loncar or Celeketic.
21 A. To General Loncar who was my superior.
22 Q. He agreed; right?
23 A. Not immediately. It took persuading. We spent a somewhat longer
24 time talking about my return, and finally he agreed because I'd explained
25 the reasons for which I had to leave.
1 Q. In any case, you did not submit any requests before you were
2 given his approval; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the Court please produce P734;
5 page 10 in B/C/S, page 7 in English.
6 Q. I don't know whether you are aware of this document. This is an
7 instruction issued by General Perisic. I'm going to read Article 34 very
8 slowly, and this article concerns the return transfer of professional
9 soldiers and civilian personnel from command centres. And Article 34
10 says -- I don't know if you have the document in front of you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I'm going to read it slowly.
13 "Professional soldiers and civilian personnel in the KC records
14 whose professional military service ceases on any legal grounds shall be
15 sent to the KC personnel department to resolve the cessation in service
16 and for removal from the KC records with the consent and on the
17 recommendation of the KC Main Staff."
18 At the time, you met all the requirements for retirement; right?
19 A. For early retirement under the law. However, I'm not familiar
20 with this document at all.
21 Q. I just want to hear from you that at the time you already met
22 legal requirements to submit a request for early retirement; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At the moment when you met the conditions, you first talked to
25 your superior in the staff asking for his consent, and after some
1 discussion he agreed.
2 A. Yes, and then I drafted my request and handed it to the personnel
3 department in the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina.
4 Q. And just one more question in order to clarify some things, and I
5 will bring my cross-examination to an end.
6 As far as I could understand you, Mr. Orlic, all the three times
7 when you went to Republika Srpska Krajina, the first time to join the
8 Territorial Defence and the second and third time to the Army of
9 Republika Srpska Krajina, you actually wanted to go there; you never
10 objected to your going there; right?
11 A. Yes, you are right. Every time, I wanted to go there because I
12 hailed from the area and I wanted to go back.
13 Q. That's how I understood it. You said it to the Prosecutor that
14 you were born in Korenica or in the region, and you actually wanted to go
15 to defend your homeland and the area where your roots were.
16 A. Yes. That's where I was born. That's where I completed my
17 education. That's where I went every year.
18 Q. You were personally affected by the fact that the territory where
19 you were born, where you resided, where your roots are, came under threat
20 and was struck by war waged by another state, and to be more precise,
21 that it came under threat from Croatia
22 A. Yes, you are right. I wanted to help in one way or another. I
23 wanted to help the people there, as a professional.
24 Q. In light of what I asked you a little while ago about salaries
25 when you you mentioned the hyperinflation, I would suggest that money was
1 not your primary motive. You would have gone anyway whether you were
2 paid or not.
3 A. Absolutely. In any case, I would have gone there.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no more questions for this
5 witness, Your Honours.
6 Thank you very much, Mr. Orlic.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any re-examination, Mr. Saxon?
10 MR. SAXON: A bit, Your Honour.
11 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:
12 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness what is Exhibit P1047.
13 Q. Mr. Orlic, during cross-examination my colleague at page 58 asked
14 you about the exchange of information that you did with the Army of
15 Republika Srpska and the Army of Yugoslavia
16 like to show you, please.
17 MR. SAXON: And first of all, if we can turn to the last page,
18 and in English this would be document ID 0620-0218.
19 Q. And you see, Mr. Orlic, at the upper left-hand side we see the
20 words "Chief of the Intelligence Department, Colonel Rade Orlic," here on
21 this last page of the document. Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is this -- and then down below, it's not so easy to read, but
24 there appears to be kind of a stamp. Was this a telegram?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. SAXON: Can we go to the first page, please.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I can --
3 MR. SAXON:
4 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Orlic. I cut you off. Can you repeat what you
5 just said?
6 A. Yes, the stamp I can see, but I can't see who this is from.
7 Q. All right.
8 MR. SAXON: Can we go to the first page, please, in both
10 Q. This is the first page of the document, Mr. Orlic. And looking
11 at the heading, that it's from the republic of the Serbian Krajina Main
12 Staff of the Serbian Army. It's titled: "Weekly information for the
13 period of 4 September 1994
14 you can recognise this document.
15 A. I can't remember the document, but I can see my name on it.
16 Q. All right. Was this the kind of document that -- or the kind of
17 telegram that you would have written during your exchange of information,
18 a document like this?
19 A. No.
20 Q. No.
21 A. No. Those were purely -- you mean later? Those were purely
22 documents about activities and the movements of the troops of the
23 neighbouring armies that I was monitoring. It's a kind of broader
25 Q. I guess my question is, did you have occasion to write broader
1 documents such as this one?
2 A. I don't remember writing broader documents. The documents that I
3 drafted were usually short, one page long at the most.
4 MR. SAXON: All right. We can leave this document for now.
5 Can we see what was Exhibit P171 again, please. This was I
6 believe shown by my learned colleague.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 MR. SAXON:
9 Q. And you see, I believe this is the appointment of General Loncar
10 to the --
11 MR. SAXON: Excuse me, I have the wrong document. This is the
12 appointment of General Celeketic.
13 I'm wondering if my learned friend can help me with the exhibit
14 number -- D87, please. If we could see D87.
15 Q. We see this document, the promotional document of General Loncar.
16 It's dated 16 December 1994
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. SAXON: Can we see now Exhibit P409, please.
19 Court's indulgence, Your Honour.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. SAXON: Can we move into private session.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
23 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
17 Mr. Orlic, that brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank
18 you so much for taking the time off to come and testify at the Tribunal.
19 You are now excused. You may stand down, and please travel well back
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the Trial
22 Chamber for allowing me to testify in this manner in view of my health
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. We appreciate you are coming,
25 we appreciate the effort. It's appreciated. Thank you so much.
1 [The witness withdrew via videolink]
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution does not have another
4 witness available today. Our next witness is available on Tuesday, the
5 5th of May.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The 5th? Tuesday?
7 MR. SAXON: Correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Well, then, the Chamber stands adjourned to
9 Tuesday, the 5th of May, at 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom I. Court
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.00 p.m.
12 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of May,
13 2009, at 9.00 a.m.