1 Thursday, 7 May 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
9 everybody in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 Can we have the appearances for today, starting with the
14 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. Dan Saxon, Mark Harmon,
15 and Ms. Inger du Ru for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 And for the Defence.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. And good
19 morning to everybody in and around the courtroom. For the Defence,
21 Novak Lukic.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
23 Mr. Saxon, who are we hearing today?
24 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls
25 Mr. Rade Raseta.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, sir.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please make the declaration, sir.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
11 WITNESS: RADE RASETA
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examination by Mr. Saxon:
14 Q. Good morning, sir.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. Could you please state your full name for the Trial Chamber,
18 A. Rade Raseta.
19 Q. And where were you born?
20 A. I was born in Donji Lapac, the Republic of Croatia
21 Q. And what is your ethnicity?
22 A. I'm Serb.
23 Q. Are you retired now?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What was your profession?
1 A. I completed the secondary non-commissioned officer school. I
2 also completed education for -- for officers, and I became a second
3 lieutenant, and I worked as a non-commissioned officers in the army, and
4 then I was accepted in the security service in JNA, and I completed the
5 school for security in 1976 [Realtime transcript read in error "1996"],
6 after which I was the chief of security in units at the rank of regiment
7 brigade. And then I was a desk officer and Deputy Chief in the security
8 service of the infantry division. And I was also an officer in
9 counter-intelligence and Deputy Chief of counter-intelligence of the
10 counter-intelligence group. I was also the chief of information and
11 analysis in the security department of the army. And then, after I was
12 transferred to the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, I was also
13 chief of information and analysis section in the security department.
14 And then I was the chief of security of the Main Staff of the army -- of
15 the Serbian army of Krajina.
16 Q. Thank you. Initially, were you serving --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I heard no translation.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think we have an error in line 4 on
21 page 3 of the transcript. I think the year is mistakenly stated there.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... thank you
23 very much, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. SAXON:
25 Q. Mr. Raseta, initially were you serving in the Yugoslav People's
1 Army, or the JNA?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. I'm sorry again, Mr. Saxon. What I
4 did say that it was -- it is supposed to be 1976; it is still not typed.
5 So you've got to make sure it's -- because 1976.
6 MR. SAXON: At line 4, page 3.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. That's what it should be. Thank you so
9 MR. SAXON:
10 Q. At some point did the JNA change its name?
11 A. Yes. It changed its name to the army of the federal republic of
13 Q. And approximately when was that; do you know? Do you recall?
14 A. This was in 1992 or 1993; I'm not certain.
15 Q. And did you then continue to serve as an officer in the army of
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. When did you retire?
19 A. The 1st of January, 1996.
20 Q. And from which army did you retire?
21 A. From the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. I returned, I
22 went back and then for a few months, I was in the army of the Federal
23 Republic of Yugoslavia
24 requested to retire, and I was retired in 1996, the 1st of January.
25 Q. We'll get along probably more quickly, Mr. Raseta, if you could
1 just answer the question that I ask you.
2 So can we say that you retired from the army of the Federal
3 Republic of Yugoslavia
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You mentioned that you worked in the security services after
6 1976. In general terms, what kind of work did the security organs of the
7 JNA and the VJ do? What was their focus?
8 A. The main role of the security organ, or the security service of
9 the JNA, and then later on, in the army of the Federal Republic
11 institutions against foreign intelligence services, extreme immigration,
12 terrorism and diversions. Also, prevention and discovery of theft of
13 ammunition, equipment, and other significant assets for the armed forces.
14 And then issuing various measures of security for the planning of staffs
15 and units, and cooperation with similar services, related services, and
16 mainly that would have been the focus of our work.
17 Q. And tell us, how would the work of the security organs differ
18 from the work of the intelligence organs, just in general terms?
19 A. Intelligence organs, their main role was discovery and following
20 the intentions of foreign armed forces in all the matters dealing with
21 aggression against one's country and following their intelligence
23 The security service had a different role. It was to protect, as
24 counter-intelligence commands and units and areas of their
25 responsibility, to protect them against infiltration by foreign
1 intelligence services.
2 Q. Thank you very much. And I forgot to ask you a question. When
3 you retired, what was your rank?
4 A. I was a colonel.
5 Q. Colonel Raseta, where did you serve between October 1993 and
6 August 1995?
7 A. I served in the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
8 Q. Prior to October of that year, October of 1993, where were you
10 A. I was posted as chief of information and analysis in the security
11 department of the 3rd Army.
12 Q. And again that was the 3rd Army of the army of Yugoslavia?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And where was the 3rd Army based at that time?
15 A. It was based in Nis
16 Q. And at that time, prior to October 1993, who was your commander?
17 A. My superior was Colonel Kuzmanovic, Petar.
18 Q. And prior to October 1993, how was your relationship with
19 Colonel Kuzmanovic?
20 A. It was official.
21 Q. Okay. Did anything -- anything special happen to your
22 relationship with Colonel Kuzmanovic prior to October?
23 A. Well, circumstances were such that Colonel Kuzmanovic, who was
24 from the territory of Republika Srpska, and I suppose that you assume
25 that he actually tried to rally us, all of us who were from Republika
1 Srpska, to go -- to go back to our home country and participant in the
2 Defence of those lands. On one occasion I actually objected to his
3 comments. I said that he was right, and that as a chief of service, he
4 is the one who should lead us and take us there because that is where he
5 belonged just as we did. But I he didn't like that. And on the first
6 occasion that presented itself when an order from the General Staff came,
7 that a number of officers had to be sent to the Republic of Serbian
8 Krajina, he added my name to that order and said --
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Colonel, let's just take
10 this step by step, okay? Good.
11 So at some point after you had this discussion with
12 Colonel Kuzmanovic, you said that an order came from the General Staff.
13 Which General Staff?
14 A. Of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
15 Q. And in general terms what did this order say? What was it about?
16 A. That order said that a group of officers, and there was a list of
17 names there, should be sent -- transferred to the army of the Republic of
18 Serbian Krajina. An order was issued for subordinate commands to
19 regulate the transfer of service to transport them to Belgrade and to
20 appoint our deputies, or their deputies in their place, and if the
21 occasion presents itself that we should return at some later point to our
22 old duties. There was also specified a time when we should leave and
23 what the manner of our transport there would be and so on.
24 Q. Okay.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get clarification on two points,
1 Mr. Saxon.
2 Sir, you say this Colonel Kuzmanovic said you -- all of you who
3 came from Republika Srpska should go back to your home country and
4 participate in the defence of those lands.
5 Is that what you said?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you said you were born in Donji Lapac,
8 in Croatia
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. Not
10 Republika Srpska, but the Republic of Serbian
11 Donji Lapac is part of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, its territory
12 belongs there.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Does it mean where at page 6, line 21, it
14 refers to all of you who come from Republika Srpska, was that a mistake
15 in -- either by you or by the interpreter?
16 Can you see that, Mr. Saxon?
17 MR. SAXON: I see that, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Refers to Republika Srpska, not the RSK.
19 So you say those of you who come from the RSK must go back there.
20 Is that what it said -- what you were saying? Okay.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can be helpful. The
24 witness did say Republika Srpska, as far as I could hear, but I think
25 when he said that, he meant Colonel Kuzmanovic, who was from
1 Republika Srpska, because there were officers from both those lands. But
2 what he said was correctly recorded in the transcript. So it is possible
3 that there were officers from both those territories, and maybe that's
4 something that can be cleared up with the witness now.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: That would have to be because the record doesn't
6 clearly say so.
7 MR. SAXON: Would you like me to clarify this, Your Honour?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you could, please. And if, indeed, he meant
9 that people from Republika Srpska must go to Republika Srpska, and the
10 people from the RSK must go to the RSK, and that he was then expected to
11 go to the RSK, then that clears my next point. But can we clear whether
12 that was indeed the point.
13 MR. SAXON:
14 Q. Going back to this point, Colonel, during this discussion with
15 Colonel Kuzmanovic, how many people were present, approximately?
16 A. There were four or five people present.
17 Q. And were there -- were these persons present from just the
18 Republika Srpska, just the Republika Srpska Krajina, or from both
20 A. I was from the Republic of Serbian Krajina
21 was from Republika Srpska, and the others were from the Republic of
23 Q. Okay. So previously, when you described this conversation with
24 Colonel Kuzmanovic, and this is at line 20 of page 6, and you described
25 him as "who was from the territory of Republika Srpska. And I suppose
1 that you assumed that he actually tried to rally us, all of us who were
2 from Republika Srpska."
3 Did you mean to only include Republika Srpska in that statement,
4 or did you mean to be more inclusive and include Republika Srpska
6 A. I think I will clarify this.
7 Just as we from the Republic of Serbian Krajina officers were
8 sent to the Serbian Krajina temporarily, in the same manner, the officers
9 from Republika Srpska were sent to that territory, to the
10 Serbian Republic
11 So there should be no difference between those two groups, not
12 just those who were from the Republic of Serbian Krajina should be sent
13 to their land but also the others. So there was the same need, and they,
14 too, were sent to Republika Srpska. So he, too, based on this sort of
15 homeland patriotism should have been sent to his home land. I don't know
16 if I have clarified this.
17 Q. That's sufficient for --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have, sir. But where were you when this
19 discussion was taking place?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in his office.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. What I want to know is in which territory,
22 in which republic were you when you were going told you have got to be
23 transferred to the RSK?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in the Republic of Serbia
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 You may proceed.
3 MR. SAXON:
4 Q. Going back to this order that you mentioned, and you mentioned
5 that one of the things the order said was that there was a list of names
6 there and a group of officers should be transferred to the army of the
7 Republic of Serbian
8 Can you recall whether the order mentioned a time-period, for how
9 long were the officers supposed to be transferred to the Republic of
10 Serbian Krajina?
11 A. Up to one year.
12 Q. Okay. And you also told the Chamber that the order was issued
13 for subordinate commands to regulate the transfer of service, to
14 transport them to Belgrade
15 And then you said: "And to appointed our deputies or their
16 deputies in their place."
17 Can you explain what you meant by that, just a little bit more
19 A. This General Staff order contained also provision that the
20 officers who were transferred for temporary duty to Serbian Krajina, that
21 they should be released of their duties, that their deputies should be
22 appointed in their positions, and that they should be taken by bus to
24 the second garrison.
25 Q. Colonel, again, I just want to take this one step at a time, all
2 Before we go any further, I just want to clarify one point.
3 Initially, or originally, when this order came from the General Staff to
4 the 3rd Army, was your name on it?
5 A. No, it was not. It was subsequently added by Colonel Kuzmanovic.
6 Q. And did you have a discussion with Colonel Kuzmanovic as to how
7 it came about that he added your name?
8 A. Yes. And he explained to me that I was omitted -- my name was
9 omitted by error, and that he had consulted the chief of the
10 Security Administration who agreed that my name should also be on the
11 list in this order, and that's how it was added. That's how my name was
13 Q. And when you refer to the chief of the Security Administration,
14 at that time, who was that, in 1993?
15 A. It was Colonel General Aleksandar Dimitrijevic.
16 Q. Did General Dimitrijevic have any relationship with the
17 General Staff of the VJ, or was the Security Administration part of the
18 General Staff?
19 A. Yes. Yes, it was part of the General Staff.
20 Q. All right. And before we go on with what happened with this
21 order that affected you, do you know anyone in the army of Yugoslavia at
22 the time, or at that approximate time, who refused such an order to serve
23 in the army of Republika Srpska Krajina?
24 A. Yes. There was a Lieutenant-Colonel Jovan Svjilar [phoen]. He
25 refused to go for health reasons because he had -- his family lived in
2 service, and he was appointed to some desk officer service outside of our
4 Q. Okay. Going back to this order to which your name was added, how
5 much time passed before your order -- this order was implemented
7 A. Not that long, 10 to 15 days, perhaps.
8 Q. And can you describe, briefly, initially how was your transport
9 to the SVK organised? What was the first step?
10 A. The first step was at the indicated time from the order the
11 transport was supposed to start, and all of us from the 3rd Army were
12 grouped in Nis
13 and at the centre of the high military schools, we all assembled from all
14 the garrisons of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. We were all placed
15 in one hall Colonel Stevo Medakovic, I think at the time he was chief of
16 the 40th [Realtime transcript read in error "4th"] Personnel Centre, did
17 the roll-call.
18 Q. Can I stop you for a minute. Before we going on to what
19 Colonel Medakovic did, you referred -- you said all of us from the
20 3rd Army were grouped in Nis
21 from the 3rd Army went up to Belgrade
22 to that high military school, I should say?
23 A. About 20 of us.
24 Q. And the centre of the high military school, do you recall where
25 that centre was located?
1 A. In Banjica, in Belgrade
2 Q. Okay. Going back to Colonel Medakovic, you mentioned that he did
3 the roll-call, and what, if anything, did Colonel Medakovic do or say
4 after that?
5 A. After the roll-call, he informed all of us who were there that we
6 were going to the command of the Main Staff of the army of the Serbian
7 Krajina in Knin, that we were going to go there by bus, that the road was
8 safe, that we shouldn't be thinking about that. That they are going to
9 deal with all of our status issues there once -- after we are deployed.
10 That we would be deployed, all of us, to the Main Staff command on
11 different duties, depending on what our profession and speciality was.
12 And after that, we were going to fill in certain documents that
13 the personnel organ of the Main Staff command would collate and forward
14 to the 40th Personnel Centre, so that all of us, who were sent to the
15 army of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina would receive the benefits
16 that were due to us, such as our salary, the appropriate payment category
17 groups, and that everything would be dealt with properly that arises from
18 our transfer to that position.
19 Q. Okay. Let me try to clarify one point in the record.
20 You said that one of the things that Colonel Medakovic said was -
21 and this is written in English - "that they will be deal with all of our
22 status issues there once -- after we are deployed."
23 When you say "they will deal with all of our status issues," who
24 is "they"? Who are you referring to by "they"?
25 A. The 40th Personnel Centre.
1 Q. Okay. And if I can just note that at page 13, line 9, I believe
2 the witness said 40th, not 4th, in the record right now it says 4th.
3 And after Colonel --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that we have a slight problem
6 again in the translation, page 14, line 11, when the witness said -- he
7 said transfer, premestaj. And in English this word was translated as
8 position. So I'm questioning the interpreters, if this is the adequate
9 term for the word premestaj. He said practically, yes, transfer,
10 practically. The end of the transfer is from our position. That's what
11 he said -- from our transfer, from our position does not seem adequate to
12 what the witness said.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do not want to pretend to understand what you
14 are saying, Mr. Lukic. I'm completely at a loss.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All I heard is that when the witness
16 spoke in Serbian he said do naseg premestaj, and that is the end of his
17 sentence, until our transfer. In the English it should state, up to our
18 transfer, full point. And then this part, to that position, I did not
19 hear him say that in B/C/S.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's -- it's an interpretation thing. You have
21 to deal with the interpreters with that now. I don't think anyone of us
22 here can help, except the interpreter.
23 What did you hear, madam interpreter?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Well, he -- perhaps the witness can repeat,
25 Your Honour, or we can listen to the tape.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can the witness repeat himself, please, Mr. Saxon.
2 MR. SAXON:
3 Q. Colonel, a few moments ago you described what Colonel Medakovic
4 told the group of officers in the hall of the military centre, the
5 education centre. And at the end of your response, you gave the
6 following long sentence, and it's the end of this sentence that I'd like
7 you to focus on, but I will read the entire sentence:
8 "And after that we were going to fill in certain documents that
9 the personnel organ of the Main Staff command would" - could late, I
10 don't know what that was suppose to be - "and forward to the 40th
11 Personnel Centre so that all of us, who were sent to the army of the
12 Republic of Serbian Krajina, would receive the benefits that were due to
13 us, such as our salary, the appropriate payment category groups ..." And
14 this is the line that is being discussed. What we have in English is:
15 "And that ... would be dealt with properly that arises from our
16 transfer to that position."
17 That last point as I've just relayed it back to you, does it
18 correctly state what you were trying to express at the end of that
20 A. I think so, yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I see Mr. Lukic has thrown in the
23 MR. SAXON: I'm sure he'll rise again, Your Honour. He always
25 Q. After -- if can you recall, approximately how many officers were
1 gathered in that hall or meeting room, when Colonel Medakovic was
2 speaking? Approximately.
3 A. About 50 or 60 officers.
4 Q. You mentioned that there were about 20 officers from the
5 3rd Army, which was based in Nis
6 from; do you recall?
7 A. I don't know exactly. There were people from all garrisons and
8 the -- they were from the command units from the air force and -- but I
9 really couldn't say. I think they were also from the land forces. But I
10 couldn't really say exactly who.
11 Q. All right. And how, then, were you and your colleagues
12 transported to the SVK?
13 Actually, first of all, I should ask: Where specifically were
14 you going to be taken? What town or city?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the witness said Knin.
16 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I will move on.
17 Q. How were you and your colleagues transported to Knin?
18 A. By bus. But I don't know if there was one bus or two.
19 Q. What kind of buses were they?
20 A. Military buses.
21 Q. Can you recall who sat next to you on the bus that took to you
23 A. Mladen Karan, he is now a retired colonel, was sitting next to
25 Q. And do you know prior to serving in the SVK, where was
1 Mladen Karan serving?
2 A. I think that he was in the air force and in the anti-aircraft
3 defence. Of course, in the security section.
4 Q. Do you know what position Mladen Karan then subsequently took up
5 with the SVK?
6 A. You mean when we came to the army of the Serbian Krajina?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. He was appointed to the post of chief of security in the
9 Kordun Corps.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness Exhibit P1865, please.
12 Q. You'll see, Colonel Raseta, that this document is an order from
13 the 3rd Army command dated the 7th of October, 1994.
14 Do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And there is -- it starts off with an order on the transfer an
17 appointment to the 40th Personnel Centre, and then we see a series of
19 Below that we see a reference to -- there's a paragraph below the
20 number 8. And it -- it says:
21 "All the above mentioned professional soldiers have to report to
22 the centre of the military schools of the Yugoslav army in the Belgrade
23 garrison ..."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. I have lost the -- just one moment, please.
1 Q. I could show you on my hard copy, with the usher's assistance, if
2 that would make things easier.
3 A. I see it. I see it, yes. I see it.
4 Q. Was this the same centre of military schools that you were taken
5 to prior to going to the army of Republika Srpska Krajina?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Down below that we see a second part of this order to initiate
8 procedure for termination of professional military service.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... what, if anything, does this
11 document -- does this order demonstrate to you?
12 A. It demonstrates -- well, it's not -- what's in the points 1 to 8
13 is not in dispute, to send people to the army of the Serbian Krajina.
14 But then there is a list of senior officers to initiate procedure for
15 termination of professional military service, because they refused to
16 carry out the order of transfer to the army of the Republic of the
17 Serbian Krajina.
18 Q. And does that, in your mind, demonstrate anything else?
19 A. I don't know what you're thinking of. The proceedings were
20 initiated for refusal to execute an order.
21 Q. Okay. We can leave this document now --
22 MR. SAXON: If Your Honours are ready.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 Mr. Saxon, against the names of 1 to 8 there's a little sentence
2 at the end which says, "... did not follow a transfer order."
3 Do you see that? Look at number 8, number 7, number 6, number 5.
4 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Almost all of them.
6 What, if any, significance can drawn from that, Mr. Witness?
7 Does it mean these eight people did not go on transfer to the army of the
8 Republic of the -- Srpska Krajina?
9 Did you hear me, sir, or did you get any interpretation?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry, I didn't
11 understand. Were you addressing me?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, sir. I was asking if -- actually, I was
13 asking what it means to say that the officers 1 to 8 did not follow a
14 transfer order. Does it mean they didn't go to the -- to the army of the
15 Republika of Srpska Krajina; or what does that mean?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It means that they had already been
17 ordered to transfer to the army of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.
18 And for various reasons, some justified, some not, they did not carry out
19 the order, so this is another order to send them there.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: But if you see number 1 and number 2, they say
21 they deliberately left units of the 40th Personnel Centre. Now, if they
22 deliberately left, they cannot be available to get a second transfer, can
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is a matter that exceeds
25 my knowledge, but let's assume that these were people who deserted and
1 the people who did not respond, the army command took another -- made
2 another attempt to order them to go to the army of the Republic of the
3 Serbian Krajina. Perhaps this is the last attempt before possibly making
4 other steps or carrying out some sanctions.
5 There are two categories here: Those who left; and those who did
6 not respond. So there are two types of cases here.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. But I'm not quite sure how you make that
8 difference. If you say they deliberately left the units of the
9 40th Personnel Centre and some say -- are said to -- did not follow a
10 transfer order. To me, doesn't look like -- these are two different
11 meanings. And those who left the Personnel Centre cannot then be
12 available to be subject to this second order, because they've left.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But this implies that those who
14 left the units, they returned to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
15 now the command here wanted to include them in the order, those who left
16 the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina of their own will and those
17 who did not respond to the 40th Personnel Centre, so this is another
18 attempt with this order to send them to the Serbian army of the Krajina.
19 I think that's how it is. I can't see any other interpretation.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. That's for your effort.
21 MR. SAXON:
22 Q. Colonel, following up on His Honour's questions, while you were
23 serving in the SVK, were you aware of persons who left the 40th Personnel
24 Centre and tried to return to their former duties in the army of
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. All right.
3 A. But these were individual cases mostly.
4 Q. Okay. All right.
5 MR. SAXON: We can leave this document now.
6 Q. Colonel, when you arrived in the SVK, in Knin, who gave you your
7 assignment there?
8 A. My assignment was given to me by Colonel Dimitrijevic, who was
9 the chief of the Main Staff security section at the time.
10 Q. Okay.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The confusion about the last name
13 which is quite important, page 21, line 23 -- line 22, the witness
14 mentioned a different last name. I think perhaps we could clear it up by
15 saying that it was the person from the Main Staff.
16 Mr. Saxon really wanted to clear that up. Perhaps the witness
17 could slowly repeat the last name of that colonel.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
19 MR. SAXON:
20 Q. Colonel Raseta, could you slowly repeat the last name of the
21 colonel in the SVK who gave you your assignment in the SVK?
22 A. Yes. It is Colonel Vuk Dmitrovic.
23 Q. Okay. Do you know if any organ of the SVK informed other organs
24 about your assignment and the assignments of your colleagues?
25 A. Could you please repeat your question.
1 Q. When you arrived in Knin, you received an assignment within the
2 SVK, and would it be fair to say that your other colleagues from the VJ
3 also received their assignments at that time? Is that fair?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did the SVK inform anyone from the VJ about the assignments that
6 had been made, if you know?
7 A. Yes. Certain documents and forms were filled in for those of us
8 newly arrived. This is something that was all assembled together by the
9 personnel organ and sent to the 40th Personnel Centre.
10 Q. All right. Do you know why that was done?
11 A. Well, it was done in order for us to receive our benefits, to
12 receive the salaries that were commensurate with the regulations. You
13 had to assume duty, fill in the form, send that to the 40th Personnel
14 Centre, and then I assumed that the 40th Personnel Centre sent that to
15 the accounting centre, where our salaries were calculated.
16 Q. All right. What was -- well, since you mention the topic of
17 salaries, just so that the record is clear, who was it who paid your
18 salary while you were serving in the army of the Republic of Serbian
20 A. The army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
21 Q. Now, did you personally receive your salary?
22 A. I did not receive it personally. A member of my family received
24 Q. Okay. And in what republic or territory was that family member
25 who received your salary?
1 A. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, in Nis.
2 Q. Okay. While you were serving in the SVK, was your salary the
3 same as it was when you were serving in the VJ 3rd Army, prior to
4 October 1993?
5 A. No. It was slightly increased by about 15 per cent, because of
6 -- as a hardship allowance.
7 Q. Did you leave the Yugoslav army in order to serve in the SVK, or
8 did you remain in the Yugoslav army?
9 A. I was transferred to the SVK, and I had all the insignia of the
10 SVK, and I was a member of the SVK at the time, while I was serving in
11 that army.
12 Q. All right. But I guess my question was: Did you leave the
13 Yugoslav army?
14 A. Well, I don't know how one can interpret that. I was a member of
15 the army of Yugoslavia
16 SVK. So practically I was a member of the army of Yugoslavia,
17 temporarily assigned to the SVK.
18 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness what is 65 ter 536, please.
19 Q. Colonel Raseta, this document is from the Main Staff of the
20 Serbian army of Krajina, dated the 10th of December, 1994. And you see
21 it is addressed to the General Staff of the Yugoslav army, to the
22 personnel administration of the 40th Personnel Centre.
23 Do you see that, towards the top?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Then below that it says:
1 "Due to the unresolved situation in the service, we are kindly
2 asking you to issue orders on the appointment of the following
3 professional officers ..."
4 And then below that we see a list of names, a list of officers.
5 Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. SAXON: Can we just briefly go to the last page, please, in
8 both languages. And if we could focus on the last paragraph which
9 perhaps could be enlarged in the B/C/S version.
10 Q. That last paragraph says:
11 "The above-named were already put forward for appointment as
12 Generals by the decree of the President of the Republic. In case it is
13 not feasible, we are kindly asking for the above-named to be appointed,
14 according to the above-listed proposals."
15 MR. SAXON: Can we turn back to the first page, please.
16 Q. Colonel Raseta, that first sentence towards the top that refers
17 to the unresolved situation in the service, are you aware of what that
18 unresolved situation was? And, if so, can you explain it to us, briefly?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.
21 I object to the formulation of this question. I would appreciate
22 it if the Prosecutor asked the witness whether he knows, because this is
23 a fact witness, whether he knows -- whether he is familiar with these
24 facts, because he was not called here as an expert witness.
25 So if there's something to clarify, it should first be clarified
1 whether he is familiar or aware of these facts.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I think in my own terms, I believe I did
3 that in my question. I asked the witness about there sentence that
4 refers to an unresolved situation, and I asked the witness whether he was
5 aware of what that unresolved situation was, which is a factual question.
6 And then I asked: "If so, can you explain it to us?"
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see that's at page 25, line 4.
8 The objection is overruled.
9 MR. SAXON: Okay.
10 Q. Can you answer my question, Colonel?
11 What was that unresolved situation involving these officers?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: First of all, were you aware of this unresolved
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not aware of this, but now,
15 looking at this document, I -- it sort of refreshed my memory as to what
16 this refers to. Because these are officers that I know, most of them,
17 except for one person, and I know that there were some vacant posts,
18 vacant establishment posts, that these officers were supposed to be
19 appointed to, and the staff commander is sending this document to the
20 40th Personnel Centre, proposing that these officers be appointed to
21 those vacant establishment posts. And this was actually acted upon,
22 because I know that all of these officers were actually appointed to
23 these posts.
24 MR. SAXON:
25 Q. And the fact -- you mention these vacant establishment posts.
1 Why was it important for the officers -- let me step back for one
3 When you refer to "vacant posts," or vacant establishment posts,"
4 vacant posts where?
5 A. Well, for instance if we take number one, we see that it is about
6 Dusan Loncar, son of Mitar. He was supposed to be the Chief of Staff of
7 the Main
8 interpreted] Djukic, was transferred to a position in the Yugoslav army
9 so that his position remained vacant and then followed this order to
10 appoint him to that position, and a similar situation is true of the
11 other persons who are mentioned here.
12 And if you would like me to, I can explain each individual case.
13 But in any case, it was a similar procedure as in the case of
14 Dusan Loncar.
15 Q. And why would it be important, for example, sticking with the
16 case of Dusan Loncar, why would it be important to be placed on that
17 vacant establishment post of the 40th Personnel Centre? What effect
18 would that have? What impact would that have?
19 A. Up until then, he was in the 11th, East Slovenia Corps. I think
20 he was a Chief of Staff there. But I'm not sure, I can't remember at
21 this point. But in view of his abilities and his qualifications, he was
22 the primary candidate to be appointed to this post.
23 Q. But my question is something different. Once an officer like
24 Dusan Loncar is appointed to that vacant post, what would be the
25 consequences of that? What, if any, consequences would be there, for
1 example, on the benefits or entitlements or other matters received from
2 the VJ?
3 A. Well, of course, he would have more benefits and more
4 entitlements, because this would be a higher position. And, of course, a
5 higher position would have higher benefits and everything else. I don't
6 want to repeat myself.
7 Q. Okay.
8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would ask that this document be
9 admitted, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
11 an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2333, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MR. SAXON:
15 Q. Before we leave this exhibit, Colonel, you mentioned there was
16 one officer on this list who you did not know.
17 Can we turn --
18 Is that officer listed on the first page, or should we turn to
19 the next page?
20 A. I think it is on the second -- the last page. It was the last
21 person on the list.
22 Q. So it was Colonel Boro Poznanovic, who you did not know; is that
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Okay.
1 MR. SAXON: If we could leave that document now.
2 Q. Colonel Raseta, when you served in the SVK, what uniform did you
4 A. I wore the uniform of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia army
5 member, but the insignia that I wore were the insignia of the SVK.
6 Q. Did all of the officers coming from the VJ to the SVK wear the
7 SVK insignia?
8 A. There were some exceptions. I think the battalion commander, the
9 police commander, Stevo Subotic, he wore the insignia of a member of the
10 army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. And I recall a situation
11 when the then president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, Mr. Hadzic,
12 came to his unit, and when he reported to him, the President was
13 satisfied with the inspection and so on, but he objected to his not
14 having the insignia of the army of the Serbian Republic of Krajina on his
15 cap, but, rather of those of Yugoslavia
16 start paying for my salary, I will start wearing your insignia.
17 Q. First of all, can you repeated the last name of this commander,
18 this person named Stevo.
19 A. Commander -- battalion commander Stevo Subotic. He was a
21 Q. In your last response you referred to Commander Subotic first as
22 battalion commander and then you said the police commander; can you
23 explain that? What was his unit?
24 A. He was a commander of a police battalion in the command of the
25 Main Staff of the Serbian Krajina army.
1 Q. Were you present when this exchange between Mr. Hadzic and
2 Commander Subotic occurred?
3 A. I was not present myself, but Captain Subotic told me about it.
4 And because I was the most senior officer in the security department at
5 the time, that's why he informed me of it, but I also confirmed this with
6 his -- or actually, I checked this with his officers, his superior
7 officers who were there themselves, who were present during this
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I note the time. Would this be the
10 right moment for the first break?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, it is. We will take a break and come back at
12 quarter to 11.00.
13 Court adjourned.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Can we return briefly to what is now Exhibit P2333.
19 Q. Colonel Raseta, we looked at this document shortly before we took
20 our break, and just so the record is clear, I just want to clarify a
21 point or two, this document signed by General Celeketic from the
22 Main Staff of the Serbian army of Krajina. When this document was -- was
23 produced, the officers who are mentioned here, where physically were they
24 serving at that time? In which army?
25 A. They were serving in the army of the Serbian Krajina.
1 Q. Okay. So -- and so, for example, if we look at number 2,
2 Lazo Babic, it says duty: "VJ, 40th Personnel Centre." And then it
3 says, "18th Corps commander." Was that the position that Mr. Babic was
4 performing at that time in the SVK?
5 A. No. Colonel Lazo Babic was the Chief of Staff at the 18th Corps
6 and Major-General Celeketic at the time was the commander, the corps
7 commander. When General Celeketic was appointed as commander of the
8 Main Staff of the Serbian army of Krajina, the proposal was drafted for
9 Lazo Babic to replace him and to be appointed as commander of the
10 39th Corps.
11 Q. I'm just confused, because the duty here under Mr. Babic refers
12 to the 18th Corps. Why did you -- why did you refer to the 39th Corps?
13 A. My apologies. I made a total error in numbering that corps.
14 It's actually the 18th Corps.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MR. SAXON: If we can leave this document now, please.
17 Q. Colonel, while you served in the SVK, did you receive any money
18 from the SVK or from the RSK?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 Q. Okay. While you served in the SVK, did you receive any extra
21 allowances from the VJ, from the army of Yugoslavia?
22 A. No. Except for the 15 per cent which was -- that I have already
23 mentioned before.
24 Q. Okay. You mentioned before that the VJ continued to pay the
25 salaries and benefits of the -- of many of the officers who were serving
1 in the SVK. Was it important for the SVK that the VJ paid the salaries
2 and benefits of many of the officers serving in the SVK?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this question calls
5 for the witness to speculate, whether this was important for the SVK. I
6 think that the witness should reply exactly for whom this was important,
7 not for which institution, because he can only testify as to facts that
8 he knows. Except, unless he had some knowledge that related to some
9 institutional knowledge.
10 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, clearly this witness can only testify to
11 what he knows. Having said that, this witness was a member of the
12 Main Staff of the SVK, so I submit there is nothing wrong with this
13 question. The witness can answer it, if he knows the answer. And if he
14 does not, he can say, I don't know or I can't answer it.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, in that sense, I think that the
17 question was not precise enough. I think he should -- the question
18 should be whether this witness has any information, in view of his post,
19 based on the information that he received while he was in that post.
20 That's the only way that this witness can be framed and not framing it by
21 providing an answer for the SVK in general.
22 I think that this question, the way it is put, is of a global
24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if the witness can answer the question,
25 he can then explain what the basis for his response and knowledge is.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Shouldn't we do it the other way around, lay a
2 foundation for the question. You say he was in the Main Staff of the
3 SVK. Just lay that foundation and then put the question.
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. Colonel, at some point, did you -- step back for a minute.
6 What were you assigned to do when you first came to the SVK?
7 What was your first assignment?
8 A. Well, I was to take over the duty that I was appointed to.
9 Q. Can you tell us, please, what that duty was? Refresh our memory.
10 A. The chief of information and analysis within the security
11 department of the Main Staff.
12 Q. And did you -- how long did you carry out that duty?
13 A. For about a year.
14 Q. And so by then -- in the autumn of 1994, did you receive another
16 A. On 19th December, 1994, I was appointed to the duty of chief of
17 the security department of the Main Staff of the SVK.
18 Q. And for how long did you carry out that position?
19 A. Until August 14th, 1995.
20 Q. And during that time, were you a member of the Main Staff of the
22 A. I was a member of the Main Staff of the SVK from the moment I
23 arrived at the Main Staff of the SVK. And when I was promoted to the
24 position of chief of the security department of the Main Staff, I was one
25 of the commanders assistants and one of his closest associates.
1 Q. And who was that commander? What was his name?
2 A. The commander's name was Colonel General Milan Celeketic.
3 Q. All right. I'm going to repeat the question that I asked you
5 If you know, was it important for the SVK that the VJ paid the
6 salaries and benefits of many of the officers serving in the SVK?
7 A. I do not have detailed information about that, nor did I ever
8 take part in any discussions relating to that matter. But if you want my
9 personal opinion, I can give it.
10 Q. Please.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness is a fact witness, and
13 that's what he was called here to do, to testify to the facts that he has
14 knowledge of, and he said himself that he doesn't have any knowledge
15 relating to these facts, and this is really calling for speculation. He
16 can only provide his own opinion but not to give an answer regarding an
17 institution, because he said that he cannot really -- and even as a fact
18 witness, he cannot actually speculate and give his own opinions. He can
19 only speak of the facts that he knows, and everything else would be
20 speculation, and he came here, again, as a fact witness.
21 MR. SAXON: I'm going to rephrase my question.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
23 MR. SAXON:
24 Q. Was it important to you, Witness, serving in the SVK that the VJ
25 paid your salary and benefits?
1 A. For me, it was actually irrelevant.
2 Q. Okay. While you served in the SVK, what was the arrangement for
3 food and accommodation for officers who had come from the VJ?
4 A. The food was provided by the Main Staff of the SVK, and the same
5 is true for accommodation. We had a -- we used the premises of a leased
7 Q. Okay. Can you give us an idea of how many VJ officers assigned
8 to the 40th Personnel Centre, including yourself, were serving in command
9 positions in the SVK while you were there in 1993, 1994, and 1995?
10 A. I cannot provide the precise information, but I think there were
11 about 100 to 120 officers in the entire SVK.
12 Q. Can you provide a figure, even an approximate figure, of what
13 percentage of those officers serving in the SVK had come from the VJ
14 office -- had come from the VJ, through the 40th Personnel Centre?
15 A. I really couldn't give you a number. I don't remember.
16 Q. Okay. Of these 100 to 120 officers that you mentioned, do you
17 know whether all of these officers were originally from the territory of
18 the RSK or not?
19 A. Yes. Mostly they originated from there, but there was some other
20 ethnic members. There was one Muslim; there was one Macedonian that I
21 know of; I think one who was an ethnic Croat who happened to be in the
22 Republic of Serbian
23 they remained on that basis.
24 Q. Do you know where General Celeketic was from?
25 A. General Celeketic was born in Vojvodina, near Indjija someplace
1 near Indjija.
2 Q. Okay. I have some names of persons that I'd like to give you.
3 And I'd like to ask you, as I read each name, whether while you served in
4 the SVK, whether you knew these persons.
5 I'll start with Colonel General Mile Mrksic. Did you know him?
6 A. Yes. He was the commander of the Main Staff after Celeketic was
8 Q. Okay. Can you recall the first time that you saw Mrksic in the
10 A. Yes. I saw him sometime in the spring of 1995, when he was in
11 the territory of the Serbian Krajina, together with Colonel General of
12 the air force, Ljubisa Velickovic.
13 Q. Was this before General Mrksic took up his duties as commander of
14 the SVK or after?
15 A. Before he became the commander.
16 Q. And when you referred to Colonel General of the air force,
17 Ljubisa Velickovic, to what army or air force did Velickovic belong to at
18 that time?
19 A. General Velickovic was the commander of the air force and the
20 anti-aircraft defence of the army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
21 Q. Okay. And can you recall where you saw General Mrksic and
22 General Velickovic in early -- in the spring of 1995? Where were you?
23 A. Yes, I remember. That day I had counselling session or an
24 advisory session that day at the command of the Kordun Corps, and during
25 the work they were brought into the conference room by Colonel
1 Veljko Bosanac the commander of the corps, and he introduced them, and
2 they very briefly stayed there. And one of my senior officers asked
3 General Velickovic the following question: Since Colonel Bosanac said
4 that they were reconnoitring the air space in case of some incursions in
5 order to have the best possible defence of the Republic of Serbian
6 Krajina, General Velickovic answered that officer of mine that the skies
7 under the Serbian Krajina is the same as the sky above the Federal
8 Republic of Yugoslavia
9 Q. All right. Moving on, did you know while you served in the SVK,
10 know of Major-General Borisav Djukic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What position did General Djukic hold in the SVK?
13 A. When I came to the SVK, the chief of the Main Staff of the SVK
14 was General Borisav Vukic [as interpreted].
15 Q. Was it Vukic or Djukic?
16 A. Dj, Djukic.
17 Q. Do you know whether -- going back to General Mrksic, do you know
18 whether General Mrksic, when he served in the SVK, was a member of the
19 40th Personnel Centre?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. How about General Djukic?
22 A. I don't understand. Was he a member of the 40th Personnel
24 Q. [Previous translation continues]... yes. While he served in the
25 SVK, if you know.
1 A. He had the same status as I did, and all of us who served in the
2 Serbian army of the Krajina, if that's what you're thinking of.
3 Q. And just so the record is clear, but that you mean which status?
4 A. That he was on the records of the 40th Personnel Centre.
5 Q. Okay. How about a gentleman named Lieutenant-Colonel
6 Dragan Saric. Did you know him while you served in the SVK?
7 A. Yes, I knew him. But it is not Saric but Sarac.
8 Q. Thank you for correcting me, and I apologise for my poor
9 pronunciation of Serbian names.
10 What position did Sarac hold in the SVK?
11 A. When I came to the security Department of The Main Staff, he was
12 the Deputy Chief of the security department of the Main Staff, the deputy
13 to Colonel Vuk Dimitrovic.
14 Q. Did you know a man named lieutenant-colonel Dusan Smiljanic?
15 A. Yes. Not lieutenant-colonel, but colonel Dusan Smiljanic. He
16 came to the SVK together with me, and he was assigned as chief of the
17 counter-intelligence group in the Main Staff security Department of the
19 Q. Did you know a man named Colonel Kosta Novakovic?
20 A. Yes. Colonel Kosta Novakovic for a time was the assistant for
21 morale of the Main Staff of the SVK.
22 Q. Okay. Did you know a man named General Mirko Bjelanovic?
23 A. Yes. Not Milanovic, but General Mirko Bjelanovic.
24 Q. Okay. What was his position, if you know?
25 A. He was the Main Staff assistant commander for logistics.
1 Q. Did you know a man named Ilija Slavkovic?
2 A. Yes. Only by first and last name. And I know that he was in the
3 Main Staff logistics, but I don't know exactly what post he was carrying
5 Q. Colonel, did you know a man named Stoja Spanovic [phoen] while
6 you served in the SVK?
7 A. No, no.
8 Q. All right. Did you know a man named Colonel Milan Djilas?
9 A. Yes. When I came to the Krajina, he was the commander of the
10 7th Corps, and later he was the chief of artillery at the Main Staff of
11 the SVK.
12 Q. I'll move on to another topic now.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you do, I just -- I know this is maybe
14 a silly question to ask, but I must ask it nonetheless.
15 Were all the members of the army of the SVK members of the
16 40th Personnel Centre or only some of them?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have the precise
18 information about that. But in view of the work that was under way in
19 that connection, I believe that they were all registered at the
20 40th Personnel Centre.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The entire army?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. But only the senior officers
23 who were transferred from the FRY to the SVK.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question was: Was the entire army members of
25 the 40th Personnel Centre or only some of them?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about the others, but
2 I know about these ones, definitely.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much.
4 Proceed, sir.
5 MR. SAXON:
6 Q. Following up on your last response, when you refer to "these
7 ones," are you referring to the officers whose names I just read to you?
8 A. Yes, yes. We were talking about them, yes.
9 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions about your duties within the
10 security department of the SVK.
11 Can you briefly describe what your duties were, first, as the
12 head of the information analysis section, and subsequently as head of the
13 entire security services of the SVK Main Staff? In general terms.
14 A. Yes. The purpose of the information analysis section is that all
15 the information, incoming and outgoing, went through my sector. They
16 were processed, estimated, evaluated. We wrote reports about that and
17 sent them to those in charge, and these reports were signed by the chief
18 of the intelligence department of the Main Staff. This is the answer to
19 this first question.
20 Q. Okay. And --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just let me just get --
22 Why do you as chief of security analysis have your reports signed
23 by the chief of the intelligence and not chief of the security?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We would receive some of those
25 documents that had some things in common, so we had to organise some form
1 of cooperation, and that is why certain documents were given to us for
2 our information and use.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now you said you wrote reports and sent those to
4 those in charge, and these reports were signed by the chief of the
5 intelligence. I'm talking about documents that are generated by you, not
6 that you receive.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Perhaps it was a slip.
8 Perhaps I said it. I didn't say that they were signed by the chief of
9 the intelligence sector but the chief of the security sector of the
10 Main Staff. He was my immediate superior.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, Mr. Saxon, if you look at page 39 from line
12 23 to page 40, line 3, just maybe you want to clarify that with your
14 MR. SAXON:
15 Q. Colonel, in the English translation of your previous answer you
16 were discussing the purpose of the information analysis section, and you
18 "We wrote reports about that and sent those ... in charge, and
19 these reports were signed by the chief of the intelligence department of
20 the Main Staff."
21 Do you want to correct that sentence?
22 A. It's a total mistake. The chief of the security department, not
23 the intelligence department. It should say the chief of the security
25 Q. Thank you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 MR. SAXON:
3 Q. And how about your duties when you became head of the security
4 department in the SVK Main Staff? What were your duties then, in general
6 A. Generally speaking, I was the chief of the service and handled
7 all the subordinates, security organs and the sections within the
8 security department of the Main Staff.
9 Q. Okay. When you became chief of the security department of the
10 SVK, in an operational sense, who was your direct superior?
11 A. My immediate and only superior was the commander of the
12 Main Staff, Lieutenant -- Colonel General Milan Celeketic.
13 Q. As part of your normal duties, did you report to
14 General Celeketic?
15 A. Absolutely, every day.
16 Q. While you were chief of the security department of the SVK, did
17 you ever report to anyone else?
18 A. Yes. I submitted reports about certain questions to the chief of
19 the Security Administration of the Main
21 Q. And just so the record is clear, in the English transcript it
22 says, "chief of the Security Administration of the Main Staff of the
23 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia." Did you mean to use the term
24 "Main Staff"?
25 A. General Staff. Instead of the Main Staff, the General Staff.
1 Q. Okay. And why did you submit reports about certain matters to
2 General Dimitrijevic? Can you explain it in relatively simple terms.
3 A. Yes. In view of the fact that the security service of the SVK
4 used all instructions, all the rules, all special operational and
5 technical means and cadres from the security of the General Staff of the
6 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, I had the duty, pursuant to all the
7 applicable special measures and special measures as regulated by all our
8 regulations, to report regularly to the Security Administration of the
9 General Staff of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
10 Q. All right. In addition to reporting to General Dimitrijevic, did
11 you also inform General Dimitrijevic about events?
12 A. We should differentiate here between the following: One thing is
13 to submit reports. These were specific persons from the Federal Republic
14 of Yugoslavia
15 and who were there under the operative treatment of the service. So,
16 these people still had to be included in the operative work in the SVK.
17 So this is one line of reporting, which went through our formalised
18 channels of reporting. That was one thing and that was part of my
20 My other duty was to inform the Security Administration if
21 possibly in the territory some problems cropped up that directly
22 jeopardized the security of the commands' units or their operations and
23 which would have negative consequences. In such cases I would report to
24 General Dimitrijevic. However, these reports that I mentioned last
25 occurred very infrequently, I perhaps sent five or six such reports,
1 whereas the other reports about specific persons that -- they were send
2 very frequently.
3 In order to be more clear, the security department here, the
4 security service in the SVK had its rules, its own instructions, its
5 operational and technical means, its cadres, its schools and other
6 elements. Had we had these things, I would be independent of the same
7 service of the FRY, except for just like in the case of all the services,
8 sometimes we would exchange information and have other forms of
10 Q. All right. I'd like to try to clarify a couple of things that
11 you just said to make sure that I understand and that record is clear.
12 In the beginning of your last response - this is on page 42,
13 starting at line 20, continuing to line 25 - you said:
14 "There were specific persons from the Federal Republic
16 who were there under the operative treatment of the service."
17 Stopping right there, which service are you referring to?
18 A. To be even clearer, these were persons who had dossiers up there,
19 and they were sent to the Serbian army of the Krajina with the dossiers
20 so we had to continue our work, in relation to them. So not for them to
21 be in the service but for the service to keep following them.
22 Q. Okay. So these were persons who -- these were VJ personnel who
23 had been sent to the SVK who were, if I can put it this way, already
24 under the eye of the security organs of the VJ. Is that fair?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. Okay. And --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: That leaves me a little perplexed.
3 So your security responsibilities included spying on your own
4 colleagues, if I may put it that crudely.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know which colleagues
6 you're thinking of.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question to you which you just said yes to
8 from the lawyer there, was: "All right" -- wait a minute, I'm going to
9 tell you what the question was.
10 Okay, "So these were persons who -- these were VJ personnel who
11 had been sent to the SVK who were, if I can put it this way, already
12 under the eye of the security organs of the VJ."
13 So that's saying it elegantly what I said crudely.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is not espionage
15 in terms of those people. Espionage is something else. We combine the
16 methods and means of work in order to continue to follow them and
17 document any eventual activity of theirs in the territory and in the
18 units. This is what was in the rules and the instructions. This was
19 something that I had to do. I was not making it up myself.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you were
21 documenting and following your colleagues, fellow personnel,
22 40th Personnel members who were in the SVK.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I considered my
24 colleagues to be members of the security organs. These were my most
25 immediate colleagues. These were my comrades, superiors, just like any
2 Yes, I understand that you said that I was actually spying on my
3 colleagues in the security organs.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, when I say "you," I'm not personalizing it.
5 I'm not talking about you. I'm saying was it one of the duties of the
6 security department to spy on 40th Personnel who were with you in the
8 That's what you said yes to when -- when Mr. Saxon asked you the
9 question. And I just want to be sure that's what you're saying, that's
10 what you mean.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there's only a difference
12 between us in the terms we use.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a very small number of
15 such --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. But what did you do about this small
17 number? When you say you were following them, what does "following them"
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Keeping track of them, following
20 them is one of the methods. But we also used other methods that we had
21 at or disposal. In other words, there they were being processed in
22 operational terms.
23 Now, whether -- what other methods there were, I don't think I
24 should discuss that here.
25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may I ask a question.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please.
2 MR. SAXON:
3 Q. Would it be fair to say, Colonel, that part of your duties was to
4 monitor the activities of these personnel? Would that be a fair
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. And was that because of a concern that these personnel might do
8 something that would be harmful to the security of the Federal Republic
9 of Yugoslavia
10 A. Well, not only to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, but also
11 the SVK.
12 Q. Okay.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may continue, sir.
14 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. And just so I can understand, the information that -- obtained
16 from the activities that we've just been discussing, would that be the
17 subject, for example, of your reporting to General Dimitrijevic?
18 A. That's right. Exclusively. I would be reporting exclusively to
19 him regarding these matters.
20 Q. Okay. And what other kind of matters might you report to
21 General Dimitrijevic about, for example?
22 A. Well, I can give you an example.
23 For instance, during the election in the Republic of Serbian
24 Krajina, the candidates in the election were the late Milan Babic, and
25 President Martic.
1 Q. Can you make this very brief.
2 A. Yes, certainly.
3 The -- Babic won the election and Martic lost. However,
4 President Milosevic was not pleased with the outcome, so he ordered
5 directly. This went via Milosevic-Martic. He ordered that these
6 elections be cancelled, and that a new election be organised. And in
7 this new election Martic won.
8 So I reported on this particular situation. And why did I do
9 that? Because that affected the role of the army of the Serbian Krajina
10 in that republic. Because it wouldn't have been -- it did make a
11 difference who won, whether the late Babic or Martic.
12 Q. And can you recall approximately what year this election or
13 elections took place?
14 A. I think this was in 1995 or maybe 1994; I'm not quite sure.
15 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness, please, what is 65 ter 656.
16 And perhaps, briefly, if we can go to the last page.
17 Q. You'll see, Colonel, that your name is there at the bottom of the
18 last page, above a telegram stamp. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The --
21 MR. SAXON: Can we go back to --
22 Q. And the last sentence says:
23 "We are continuing to monitor the current situation in the
24 Republic of Serbian Krajina, of which we will duly inform you."
25 MR. SAXON: Can we go back to the first page, please.
1 Q. See the document has the date of 2 May 1995. And it's directed
2 to the Security Administration of the General Staff of the army of
4 Is this a document that you produced, Colonel?
5 A. Yes. This is a document that I signed, but, for the most part,
6 it was actually portions of a document that were -- that was produced by
7 the chief of the intelligence service.
8 Q. And so then what did you do with those portions? How did those
9 portions of another document become this document?
10 A. The portion that was common for -- and that related to everyone,
11 that was usually the first page, we would copy that, cut and paste as it
12 were, and then we would add our own report.
13 That portion would be a sort of introductory information to give
14 a general overview of the situation, and there was no point in changing
15 anything to that. And then followed by that would be reports of various
17 Q. And was it common for you and the chief of the intelligence
18 service of the SVK Main Staff to exchange information like this?
19 A. Yes, it was. Because we were closely related services, and we
20 were in daily contact.
21 Q. Now, this document was sent to the Security Administration of the
22 General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia
23 gone to General Dimitrijevic?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Is this an example of you reporting to General Dimitrijevic or
1 informing him about events?
2 A. This is what we could call a report, because we had a new
3 situation. There was Operation Flash. We had lost Western Slavonia, so
4 these were extraordinary circumstances, and we all reported on it, each
5 according to their own views or departmental aspects.
6 Q. And just so the record is clear, Operation Flash was an operation
7 by whom against whom?
8 A. The Croatian armed forces carried out an aggression on the
9 territory of western -- on part of the territory of the Republic of
10 Serbian Krajina, which is Western Slavonia, and this was part of the
11 territory under the control of the 18th Corps.
12 Q. The 18th Corps of the SVK.
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. You mentioned the chief of the intelligence service of the SVK.
15 Do you recall that person's name?
16 A. Mihajlo Knezovic, lieutenant-colonel.
17 Q. Do you know if Mihajlo Knezovic was connected to the
18 40th Personnel Centre?
19 A. I think that he wasn't.
20 Q. Okay. Apart from the Security Administration of the VJ General
21 Staff, would this report have been sent to other parts of the VJ General
22 Staff or anywhere else?
23 A. I don't know. But I know for certain That Lieutenant-colonel
24 Knezovic reported to the intelligence administration, and I informed the
25 Security Administration. I don't know if the Main Staff informed the
1 General Staff of the Republic of Yugoslavia
2 Q. When you say that Lieutenant-Colonel Knezovic reported to the
3 intelligence administration, and you informed the
4 Security Administration, which army -- which body are you referring to?
5 A. The General Staff of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
6 Q. Okay.
7 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would ask that this document be
8 admitted, please.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
10 please be given an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2334, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness what is Exhibit P1018,
15 Can we -- can we look, first of all, at the last page, please, of
16 both versions.
17 Q. You see your name there at the bottom of the last page, Colonel?
18 A. Yes. Yes, I see it.
19 Q. Is that your signature there?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. All right.
22 MR. SAXON: Can we turn back to the first page, please, in both
24 Q. You see this document is dated the 3rd of August, 1995
25 "Subject: Report," and it's addressed to the Security Administration of
1 the VJ, General Staff, General A. Dimitrijevic, personally.
2 What was going on around the 3rd of August, 1995, that led you to
3 produce this report?
4 A. This was -- the most immediate situation leading up to
5 Operation Storm, an operation by the armed forces of Croatia
6 Serbian Krajina. So there were already minor skirmishes, minor combat
7 operations being conducted along certain routes. And there was a total
8 breakdown in the structure of the command -- corps of the Serbian -- of
9 the army of the Serbian Republic
10 organs refused to obey my orders. Panic set in. There were instances of
11 desertions, and there were other elements that had a negative effect on
12 combat morale and the security situation in the -- in -- throughout the
13 ranks of the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. So this prompted
14 me to send this report to General Dimitrijevic.
15 Q. Just so the record is clear, is this an example of you reporting
16 to General Dimitrijevic or simply informing him about events?
17 A. This was a report.
18 Q. When we use the term "report" or "reporting to
19 General Dimitrijevic," does that imply that you had a duty to send this?
20 A. He did not order me to inform him of this. But I estimated, I
21 assessed that it was necessary for me to do so, and I did.
22 Q. Can I take your response as a yes to my question, or should I
23 repeat my question?
24 A. Could you please repeat the question. I don't where the
25 discrepancy is.
1 Q. My question was: When we use the term "report" or "reporting to
2 General Dimitrijevic," does that imply that you had a duty to send this?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness already
5 answered this question.
6 MR. SAXON: I think he did not.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The two are not agreed about the answer. He did
8 answer, but the two are not agreed about the answer. They're trying to
9 clarify it.
10 MR. SAXON:
11 Q. Can you answer my question, Colonel?
12 A. Yes, I can.
13 So I will briefly repeat it. There was a new situation. The
14 special corps -- the special forces corps --
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
16 A. -- broke down --
17 Q. It's a yes or no question.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not --
19 MR. SAXON:
20 Q. It's a simple yes or no question.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you have a duty to report this incident to
22 General Dimitrijevic? Or were you just informing him because you felt it
23 was good to inform him?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have the duty to do so,
25 but I decided to inform him.
1 MR. SAXON: Okay. Can we please leave this document.
2 Q. While you served in the SVK, did General Celeketic have the
3 authority to initiate disciplinary proceedings against you, if you
4 committed an act of misconduct?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. SAXON: The Court's indulgence for one moment, please.
7 Q. While you were serving in the SVK, did General Dimitrijevic have
8 the authority to initiate disciplinary proceedings against you?
9 A. Militarily, no. However, if -- due to my incompetence, there
10 would come about these conspiracy or disclosure of certain facts, then he
11 could, but upon my return to the army of the Federal Republic
13 Q. Okay. And just so the record is clear, it's a little bit unclear
14 in the English transcript. You said: "However, if due to my
15 incompetence there would come about these conspiracy or disclosure of
16 certain facts."
17 But that I mean, are you referring to violations of the law? Is
18 that what you are talking about? If you had violated some law?
19 A. Well, it is a violation of the law but also of the rules and
20 provisions that regulate these problems. So if there should be a
21 disclosure of methods or means of work, then I could be liable or subject
22 to measures taken by the -- by the Security Administration.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, I just want the record to show that you
24 introduced the violations of the law to the witness. He had said if due
25 to my incompetence, there could come about these conspiracy or disclosure
1 of certain facts, my incompetence has nothing to do with violations of
2 law. That is his inability to perform duties properly.
3 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. And I will clarify that with
4 the witness.
5 Q. Would ... in the sense of your answer, how do you use the term
6 "incompetence"? What did you mean by that?
7 A. Well, inappropriate use of means and methods of work, as a result
8 of which they would be disclosed. In other words, there must be total
9 conspiracy when using those methods and assets in our work.
10 Q. What do you mean by the use of the term "conspiracy" in this
11 sense, Colonel? That I think is puzzling myself and perhaps others.
12 What do you mean by what you say "there must be total conspiracy when
13 using these methods an assets in our work"?
14 A. What I mean by that is complete confidentiality or secret
15 application of those.
16 Q. Okay. All right. Very well.
17 And due to the importance of complete confidentiality, is that
18 why disclosure of methods or means of work would be a problem?
19 A. Certainly.
20 Q. Okay. Colonel, initially when you were sent to serve in the SVK,
21 if you recall, how long were you sent for? What did that order say?
22 A. The order said up to one year.
23 Q. At the end of that one year, did you wish to remain in the SVK?
24 A. Sometime before this term of one year expired, my immediate
25 superior, the chief of security, I asked him to speak to the commander of
1 the Main Staff and ask him whether there would be a problem with my
2 returning to the Yugoslav army. My chief attended a meeting; he was at a
3 meeting with General Celeketic. He spoke about this issue in the
4 presence of my chief. General Celeketic telephoned the chief of security
5 of the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia
6 told him about my request, this problem, and General Dimitrijevic replied
7 that there was no appropriate substitute at this in time point for me and
8 that I should it remain there for a little longer. And once an officer
9 who could replace me was found, I would be returned -- I would be sent
10 back to the security service of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I
11 accepted this, and I remained on the same duty, the chief of security of
12 the Main
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a question, sir. There's something I don't
15 You've just said at the end of that answer: "I accepted this,
16 and I remained on the same duty, the chief of security of the
17 Main Staff ..."
18 However, at the beginning of your -- well, that's what is
19 translated. I see you shaking your head. I don't know whether you are
20 misinterpreted. You have been misinterpreted. But let me say what my
21 problem is.
22 At the beginning of your answer, you said: "I asked to speak" --
23 "Sometime before this term of one year expired, my immediate
24 superior, the chief of security ..."
25 Now, are you saying you have a chief of security as your
1 superior, but you remaining in the job as chief of security. Not quite
2 sure what is that. And you have testified already that at some stage you
3 became chief of security in the SVK; isn't it so?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you have very well
5 noted all of that. But let me just put it in chronological order.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A few weeks before my tour of duty
8 in the SVK would expire - so I'm talking about that period - each one of
9 us who would be returned to the army of Yugoslavia would have to submit a
10 written request, and this request would be analysed and discussed at the
11 command collegium, and they would decide whom to return and whom not to
13 So I submitted my request to my immediate superior,
14 Colonel Smiljanic. Because at this time, I was still chief of analysis
15 and --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]
18 ... the chief -- so he was the chief of the security department of the
19 Main Staff.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. So, were you then misinterpreted where you
21 referred to him as chief of security, as your immediate superior, and you
22 referred to yourself as chief of security? Was that a misinterpretation?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably. Because I took over in
24 that duty later on.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 You may proceed, Mr. Saxon.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I note the time. Would the Chamber
3 prefer to rise at this time?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. It would be an appropriate time. We will
6 take a break and come back at half past 12.00.
7 Court adjourned.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
11 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Colonel Raseta, did the SVK Main Staff have a collegium?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And how often did this collegium meet?
15 A. Practically every morning.
16 Q. Were you a member of the collegium?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who were the other members of this collegium?
19 A. The chief of the Main Staff, assistant for logistics, assistant
20 for morale. That's it.
21 Q. Were these officers assigned to the 40th Personnel Centre, if you
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who would chair these meetings?
25 A. The commander of the Main Staff, General Milan Celeketic.
1 Q. Can you recall in general terms the kinds of matters that were
3 A. Different topics were discussed, depending on the current
4 situation. I really cannot speak about it now.
5 In any case, all the decisions that were made at the level of the
6 Main Staff were discussed at the commander's collegium and the decisions
7 were reached in that way.
8 Q. And who would -- excuse me.
9 Can you recall whether General Perisic's name ever came up at
10 these collegium meetings?
11 A. Very rarely. I cannot remember in what context, but very rarely.
12 Q. To your knowledge, did members of the collegium ever send
13 information to General Perisic?
14 A. Yes. I had the opportunity to see regular reports that the
15 Main Staff sent.
16 Q. Okay.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were those reports sent to General Perisic?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally didn't draft them or
19 participate in the drafting, but they were sent to the General Staff of
20 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
21 MR. SAXON:
22 Q. Was the topic of logistics ever discussed at the collegium?
23 A. Yes, this was discussed.
24 Q. Do you know whether the army of Yugoslavia ever provided
25 logistical support to the SVK?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What kind of logistical support did the VJ provide to the SVK?
3 A. Fuel was sent, lubrication oil, medical supplies, spare parts.
4 Not ammunition and weapons; that was very infrequent. Mostly it was
5 these articles that I mentioned.
6 Q. And how did you become aware of this?
7 A. I found out about it by the discussions at the commander's
8 collegium and also on the basis of written requests for those items.
9 Q. Requests from whom to whom?
10 A. The requests were written at the Main Staff. I don't know who
11 were the people who drafted and processed the document. The document was
12 sent to the General Staff of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
13 Q. And to your knowledge, were these written requests fulfilled by
14 the army of Yugoslavia
15 A. I really don't have any insight into all of those things. But I
16 know about one occasion, when President Martic asked me to look into the
17 matter of accepting the fuel cisterns as they were entering the
18 Republika Srpska at the Racak crossing, and that I should accompany with
19 my police those cisterns to the Knin garrison in view of the fact that
20 they were earlier occasions when those fuel trucks disappeared. I
21 understood my assignment, and I allocated a police squad to escort the
22 fuel trucks for I don't know how long, but any way, at some point, my
23 police was disarmed. They were arrested. The 13 fuel trucks were lost,
24 and only three actually reached their destination. And I know about this
25 personally, because I was the one who was commanding the squad of the
1 military police who were escorting them. So I informed General Celeketic
2 about this matter, and he, in turn, reported about it to
3 President Martic.
4 As for the fate of those 13 fuel trucks, I don't know what
5 happened to them.
6 Q. Do you know who sent this fuel?
7 A. The army of Yugoslavia
8 Q. Okay. I'd like to talk to you about reporting from the SVK
9 Main Staff to the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia.
10 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness Exhibit P1023, please.
11 And if we can briefly turn to the last page in both versions.
12 Q. You'll see, Colonel, that this is a document signed by the
13 commander of the Serbian army Main Staff, General Mile Novakovic.
14 Do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can we go back to the first page, please.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Is it the commander of the Serbian army
18 Main Staff?
19 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because I see Republic of Serbian Krajina
21 Serbian army Main Staff commander. I'm not quite sure which is which.
22 On the English side, what I can read.
23 MR. SAXON:
24 Q. Perhaps, Colonel, could you help us with this. Who is sending
25 this document, and what was his position?
1 A. Commander of the Main Staff of the Serbian army of the Krajina,
2 General Mile Novakovic.
3 MR. SAXON: I think part of the confusion may be, Your Honour, is
4 that in the English part of that translation refers to the stamp, not
5 just to the signature and other words that are there.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then the witness has told us who is sending is
7 a commander in the Serbian army of Krajina.
8 MR. SAXON: Sure.
9 Can we turn to the first page, please.
10 Q. We see that this document, it's dated the 10th of November, 1993
11 And it's titled: Drawing up and submitting combat reports to the -- it
12 says Yugoslav army Main Staff; I'm not sure whether that actually should
13 be General Staff. We can check that.
14 And we see this is an order for combat reports to be submitted to
15 the FRY.
16 Do you see that in item number 1, Colonel?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Maybe you can help us with the abbreviations.
19 In item number 1, we see an abbreviation that I think says FRY,
20 and then we see the letters, I believe, VSO. Do you know what that
21 stands for?
22 A. I don't know. It could be a typing error.
23 Q. Okay.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: In the B/C/S it says CPJ.
25 Do you know what that is?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: And BCO?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can perhaps say that this
4 is the Supreme Defence Council, the Vrahovni Savet Odbrane.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MR. SAXON:
7 Q. Item number 2, Colonel, says that a combat report which is to be
8 drawn up and submitted shall contain the following information. And then
9 we see a list of matters.
10 Do you see that list?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If you could turn your mind, please, to provision 2.2.3.
13 MR. SAXON: And if we could go to the next page in the English
15 Q. Excuse me, Colonel. I should have said 2.2.4, which says
16 "security." "Security situation in units and in the territory,
17 responsible chief of security department."
18 My question is: Eventually when you became the chief of the
19 security department in the Main Staff of the SVK, did you become
20 responsible for contributing this section of these reports?
21 A. Yes, I was responsible, pursuant to this order, but my organ
22 participated in the drafting of this item, and they were actually the
23 ones who were supposed to do these jobs in the security organ. So I
24 didn't personally write this part that had to do with security, but I was
25 responsible in making sure that such reports on this topic were regularly
2 Q. All right.
3 MR. SAXON: Can we leave this document now, please -- actually,
4 can we hold on to it for a moment.
5 Q. I want to focus on something that you just said.
6 You said you were responsible in making sure that such reports on
7 this topic were regularly dispatched.
8 To whom would the security department send its reports or
9 information about security, in this instance?
10 A. The content of this item was regularly sent to the training and
11 operations organ, who processed this report.
12 Q. And the training and operation organ of what?
13 A. Of the Main Staff of the SVK.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MR. SAXON: If we can move away from this document now, and if we
16 could show the witness what is 65 ter 548, please.
17 Q. This document, it's dated the 15th of May, 1994, from the
18 Main Staff of the Serb army of the Republic of Srpska Krajina. And it's
19 entitled: Regular operations report of the Main Staff of the Serb
20 Krajina army. And we see a list of addressees. Slobodan Milosevic,
21 president of the republic of Serbia
22 Republika Srpska Krajina; and Lieutenant-Colonel Momcilo Perisic, the
23 chief of the General Staff of the VJ.
24 Are you following me?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. This report -- one of the addressees is Slobodan Milosevic. Can
2 you tell us from your knowledge of military doctrine and affairs, was it
3 normal for the Main Staff of an army of one republic to report to the
4 president of another republic?
5 A. Well, this is not the established practice. If a report is
6 written and being dispatched, it would be realistic for the Main Staff of
7 the SVK to send the report to the General Staff of the FRY and to
8 President Martic, of course.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. I don't see any reason for Slobodan Milosevic.
11 Q. You say it would be realistic for the Main Staff of the SVK to
12 send the report to the General Staff of the FRY.
13 Why do you say that?
14 A. Because it's a military report.
15 Q. I see.
16 A. The army of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina has its own
17 president, so, I mean, it's logical for a copy to be sent to
18 Milan Martic, but I cannot answer why a copy was also sent to
19 Slobodan Milosevic.
20 Q. My question is something different. Why is it realistic or to
21 use your other term, logical, to send -- for the SVK Main Staff to send a
22 report to the General Staff of the army of the FRY?
23 A. It's logical, and as far as -- if we remember the previous order
24 of the commander of the Main Staff, who said -- who issued the order and
25 elements that should be contained in the order, and is says that the
1 regular report should be sent to the General Staff of the army of
4 Of course, by the nature of his function Martic would be implied,
5 because he was the commander in chief of the armed forces of the Republic
6 of the Serbian Krajina.
7 So I don't know if I was clear enough.
8 Q. All right.
9 MR. SAXON: Can we turn, please, to section 2.4 of this document,
10 which is page 4 in the English, and page 3 in the B/C/S.
11 Before we move on, at page 65, lines 3 to 8, Colonel, you gave
12 your last response, and you said that:
13 "If we remember the previous order of the commander of the
14 Main Staff, who issued the order and elements that should be contained in
15 the order, and it says that the regular report should be sent to the
16 General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia
17 or President Milosevic in the report."
18 Did you use the term "report" as in this report, or did you use
19 the term "order," referring to the order, the previous order that we had
20 looked at?
21 A. The commander of the Main Staff of the SVK wrote the order in
22 terms of which elements should be reported on in regular reports to the
23 General Staff of the FRY.
24 Q. Thank you for clarifying that.
25 Now, going back now to section 2.4, if you will turn your mind to
1 that section, Colonel. You will see that it is entitled: Security
2 situation in the units and in the territory.
3 Do you see that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who or whom produced this section of this report?
6 A. The same answer as before is what I can give. My assistant for
7 staff security affairs would send it to the operations and training organ
8 of the SVK.
9 Q. Okay.
10 MR. SAXON: And if we go to the last page, please.
11 Q. We see that this report is signed by General Milan Celeketic, as
12 the commander.
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I would ask that this document be
14 admitted into evidence, please.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is admitted. May it please be given an
16 exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2335, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MR. SAXON:
20 Q. Moving on to a different topic, Colonel, regarding
21 communications. While you served in the Main Staff of the army of the
22 Republic of Serbian Krajina, was it possible for members of the SVK
23 Main Staff and the General Staff of the VJ to communicate? Technically
24 possible, I mean; physically possible.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And -- and how did this -- how did such communication occur? By
2 what means?
3 A. There were telephone communications and also coded
4 communications, documents that were encrypted and coded and sent, and
5 received in the same way.
6 Q. And were these communication lines between these two organs, were
7 they direct, indirect? How would you describe them?
8 A. That's not my area of expertise. But I did use such
9 communications myself, when I was sending certain documents to my
10 colleague Aco Dimitrijevic. I assume that they are direct. I mean, if
11 they did receive them.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Without any intermediates. But I really cannot give you an
14 explanation of how it worked. But in any case that system of
15 communications worked.
16 Q. Do you have any doubts that the documents that you send to your
17 colleague, General Dimitrijevic, were received? To your knowledge, were
18 they received?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. When you served in the SVK, Colonel, did you know a man
21 named Nikola Zimonja?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who was this gentleman?
24 A. Colonel Nikola Zimonja was the chief of the intelligence centre
25 that was installed at Petrova Gora in the sector of the
1 21st Kordun Corps.
2 Q. And just so the record is clear, Petrova Gora, in what territory
3 was that location at the time, in 1994/1995?
4 A. It was in Kordun.
5 Q. Was Kordun part of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?
6 A. Certainly. That is where our 21st Corps was.
7 Q. All right. And you referred to this centre as an intelligence
8 centre. Do you recall what its function was more specifically?
9 A. That was an aspect of the intelligence administration, or the
10 intelligence department of the General Staff of the Federal Republic
12 but as far as I could learn, from Lieutenant-Colonel Knezovic, this was a
13 centre that monitored activities of foreign military formations and
14 reported on those to the intelligence administration of the Yugoslav
15 General Staff. In other words, it was not subordinated to the Main Staff
16 of the Serbian Krajina army.
17 Q. Was this intelligence centre in any way part of the SVK?
18 A. Only territorially, in terms of territory. But the Main Staff of
19 the SVK had no competence or no jurisdiction over it.
20 Q. And do you know to which army, then, the staff of this
21 intelligence centre belonged? For example, Zimonja?
22 A. As I've already said, it was an element or a part of the
23 General Staff of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
24 Q. Did this intelligence centre ever share information, to your
25 knowledge, with the SVK?
1 A. I did not have direct insight into that, but in my contacts with
2 Lieutenant-Colonel Mihajlo Knezovic, I know that they did exchange some
4 Q. Do you know if Nikola Zimonja had a deputy at the intelligence
6 A. Yes. That was Lieutenant-Colonel Milan Krkovic.
7 Q. I'd like to change the subject now, if I may, Colonel, to the
8 events of May 1995.
9 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness what is Exhibit P496.
10 Q. We see, this is an order from General Celeketic; we can see that
11 in the B/C/S version at the bottom. And this document, if we can -- if
12 we can now go back to the first page in the English version, please.
13 This document, it's dated the 1st of May, 1995, from the Main Staff of
14 the Republic of Serbian Krajina, Serbian army. And it's entitled:
15 Raising of combat readiness.
16 Do you see that, Colonel?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If you can recall, why was it necessary for General Celeketic to
19 order the raising of combat readiness on the 1st of May, 1995? What was
20 going on at that time?
21 A. This date, in fact, corresponds with the Operation Flash. It was
22 an operation by the Croatian army against Western Slavonia. And it
23 related to the situation that ensued after the fall of Western Slavonia,
24 so that this order for raising combat readiness was issued to the
25 commands of the 7th and 21St Corps of the SVK Main Staff.
1 Q. All right. And above the word "order" we see: "I hereby
2 order ..."
3 And then we see in paragraphs 1 or 2, it says: "The Orkan squad,
4 together with the military police squad of the SVK," and then an
5 abbreviation that I don't know what it means, "and the S-1 squad of the
6 7th Corps shall be on alert and ready for engagement upon my order."
7 And then in paragraph 2 the order is that, The Orkan squad shall
8 March with reinforcements along a particular route ... to a place called
10 Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us, please, Colonel, what was the Orkan squad? What
13 was that?
14 A. It's an artillery weapon. That, too, is not my area of
15 expertise. I have never actually used this weapon. But it was a weapon
16 that was for shelling long-range targets. I believe the range was 50 to
17 60 kilometres, and that was a weapon that the Main Staff of the
18 Serbian Krajina army had at its disposal.
19 Q. Do you know what kind of targets the Orkan was intended for?
20 A. I have already mentioned that. This was for aiming at theatres
21 of operations, defences of the enemy, sectors of defence of enemy forces
22 and enemy units. So mainly it was used for shelling of general theatres,
23 not for precise targets.
24 Q. Do you know why General Celeketic was the person issuing this
25 order about the deployment of the Orkan squad?
1 A. The Orkan squad was under the personal command of
2 General Celeketic, and he was the only one who could decide on its use.
3 During my service in Krajina, I never knew where this squad was
4 deployed, the Orkan squad. Regardless of the fact that it was also
5 secured by a military police squad that belonged to my department. I
6 even asked General Celeketic on one occasion to explain what my
7 responsibilities would be in providing protection or defence for the
8 Orkan squad; and he replied, As far as Orkan is concerned, don't you
9 worry about that.
10 Q. All right. Sticking with the date the 1st of May, 1995, were you
11 present that day at a meeting of the Supreme Defence Council of the RSK?
12 Just yes or no.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. After that meeting of the Supreme Defence Council, did you attend
15 any other meetings? Can you recall?
16 A. Well, there were such meetings, in view of the newly -- new
17 developments. Sometimes these meetings were held on -- several times a
18 day, but I don't know exactly which one you're referring to, but I
19 certainly did attend more of them.
20 Q. Do you recall a meeting where you and General Celeketic and a man
21 named Colonel Gacic was present?
22 A. I think it was either a translation error or there was some
23 problem in the framing of it. If you allow me to respond?
24 Q. I don't -- I don't want you to respond if you didn't understand
25 my question. Do you want me to repeat my question?
1 A. Please repeat it.
2 Q. Okay. Can you recall, after the meeting of the Supreme Defence
3 Council being present with General Celeketic, Colonel Gacic, and other
4 corps commanders of the SVK?
5 A. I apologise, but I have to correct you. This was a collegium
6 meeting; in other words, the commander and a group of senior officers.
7 Me, the Chief of Staff, and so on, and the corps commanders were not
8 present, which means that Colonel Gacic and corps commanders were not
9 present at the meeting.
10 Q. All right. Well, do you recall any orders at a meeting by
11 General Celeketic to open fire against a target on that day, the 1st of
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you describe, first of all, who was present at that meeting.
15 A. In addition to me and the commander, there was also
16 General Loncar, the chief of operations and training, Milisav Sekulic,
17 General Bjelanovic, Colonel Alavanja, and I think Lieutenant-Colonel
18 Mihajlo Knezovic was also there.
19 Q. And can you recall specifically what, if anything,
20 General Celeketic said about opening fire?
21 A. Yes. General Celeketic ordered to the commander of the
22 39th Corps, the Gacic person that you mentioned earlier, the commander of
23 the Kordun Corps, and the commander of the 7th Corps to open fire on
24 urban settlements, according to targets as discussed earlier, as
25 determined earlier, to open artillery fire on those targets.
1 Q. And was there a particular urban centre that was mentioned, if
2 you can recall?
3 A. Colonel Gacic, to him, he mentioned Sisak.
4 Q. And can you recall what Gacic's initial response was?
5 A. I know that Gacic did not order opening artillery fire on Sisak.
6 Q. Do you know whether the artillery fire on Sisak was eventually
7 carried out?
8 A. It was not. It wasn't.
9 Q. I want to change the subject now to Operation Storm in
10 August 1995.
11 After Operation Storm in August of 1995, what did you do?
12 A. I don't know exactly what you mean. What period do you mean?
13 Because I don't know where I was. There were many days after
14 Operation Storm, so I don't know which period you're referring to.
15 Q. Okay. Before we do that, I'd like to step back for a moment.
16 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness what is 65 ter 535, please.
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 MR. SAXON:
20 Q. This is a document dated the 26th of May, 1995, from the
21 Main Staff of the Krajina Serb army to the -- submitted to the SVK
22 commander regarding intelligence.
23 MR. SAXON: Can we go to the last page, please.
24 Q. Is that your signature there, Colonel?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. Okay.
2 MR. SAXON: Can we turn back to the first page.
3 Q. So was -- can you tell us, was this a document that you or your
4 security service produced?
5 A. I signed it, and my security service drafted it.
6 MR. SAXON: On the B/C/S version, can we scroll down, please, a
8 Q. You'll see that on this first page there is an discussion about
9 General Celeketic, on the 1st of May, 1995, ordering the commander of the
10 39th Corps, Colonel Gacic, to open artillery fire at Sisak.
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And then below that, there's a single sentence towards the bottom
14 of the page that says: "The artillery fire was opened at Sisak around
15 1700 hours on 1 May 1995
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. A few moments ago, I asked you whether fire was opened on Sisak,
19 and you told us no. So I'm just trying to understand -- help us
20 understand which information is correct.
21 A. If I can rely on my memory, Colonel Gacic told Celeketic on that
22 occasion that he was not prepared to open fire on the previously defined
23 targets. Celeketic was angry. He was very irritated, and he ordered him
24 to open fire. And around 1700 hours, the 39th Corps reported that fire
25 had been opened around 1700 hours at the Sisak refinery. But, as for --
1 let me say it again, that as far as I can recall, there was no opening of
2 fire, not even then.
3 So that then what followed was that Gacic's conduct was reviewed
4 to determine why he had not carried out the order issued by Celeketic.
5 And you can see here that this is attributed to his -- the fact that he
6 had relatives in Zagreb
7 not very brave and unmotivated and so on. And this was information
8 obtained from the intelligence department, as you can see from the
9 heading. I ordered my subordinate security organ at the 39th Corps to
10 investigate this and to inform me of it.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. And as far as I can recall, there was no opening of fire on the
13 Sisak refinery.
14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to admit this document.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
16 please be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2336, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MR. SAXON:
20 Q. So after -- returning to August 1995, after Operation Storm, did
21 you remain in the SVK, or did you go somewhere else?
22 A. I remained in the SVK until August 14th, 1995, after which, with
23 the permission of General Mrksic, I returned to the security department
24 of the 3rd Army in Nis
25 Q. And when you returned to the security department of the 3rd Army
1 in Nis
3 A. No, I did not. That position was filled. I was offered the
4 position of some kind of coordinator for territorial structures, Kosovo
5 or something to that effect, which I declined, and then I submitted my
6 request to retire.
7 Q. And was your -- when you say you submitted your request to
8 retire, to which army?
9 A. I submitted it to my superior, to the chief of the security
10 department of the 3rd Army, and I assume that the personnel department of
11 the 3rd Army, forwarded this to the personnel administration of the
12 General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia
13 Q. Was your request to retire eventually approved?
14 A. Yes, very soon. And my active duty ceased on the 1st of January,
16 Q. When you retired how, if at all, did your time in the SVK affect
17 your pension benefits from the army of Yugoslavia
18 A. Well, it affected it in the following manner. The time that I
19 spent in the army of the Serbian Krajina was counted as double years for
20 pensionable remuneration.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. Double years of service.
23 Q. Turning to another topic, I'd like to talk to you about
24 violations of military discipline while you were serving in the SVK.
25 Colonel, were you aware of any cases of war crimes committed by
1 Serb forces against Croat forces or civilians in the RSK that were
2 investigated or reported by the SVK?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that this is leading the
5 witness. I think he should have first asked whether there were such
6 cases and then, if there were, then whether there was any action taken.
7 MR. SAXON: I can certainly do that, Your Honour.
8 Q. Colonel, while you served in the SVK, were you aware of
9 violations of the laws of war, the Geneva Conventions, committed by
10 members of the SVK against Croatian forces or civilians?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. SAXON: May I have the Court's indulgence for one moment,
14 please, to consult with my colleague.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, I have no further
20 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
22 Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honour.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Raseta, good afternoon.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. I'm Novak Lukic, defending Mr. Perisic. I'm going start putting
3 questions to you. I don't know how tired you are. But first of all,
4 we're going to deal with the topic that I think you can help us with with
5 your answers, and these are topics initiated by Mr. Saxon relating to the
6 work of the security organs.
7 You are practically in the security organs in the Yugoslav
8 national army, in the army of Yugoslavia
9 there professionally the most, as part of your career.
10 I forgot to -- at the beginning warn you about something,
11 Mr. Raseta. You have already done one thing. You and I understand each
12 other; we speak the same language; and the interpreters must adequately
13 translate everything that I am saying and that are you answering.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. So I'm asking you, I'm going to try to speak as slowly as I can,
17 and I'm going to ask you, after my question to wait a little bit and then
18 after that to give your answer. I will also wait a little bit after your
19 answer before I begin my questions.
20 First of all, we're going to talk about -- about the position of
21 the security organs, as you worked, while you were a member of the JNA
22 and the VJ. And then we're going to talk about your work in the security
23 organ the way it was done when you were a member of the SVK.
24 Would you agree with me, Mr. Raseta, that the security organs
25 within the structure of the Yugoslav People's Army and the army of
2 had a specific status in the chain of command?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The answer has to be written down. Just nodding your head is not
6 They were in a unified chain of command always subordinate to
7 their commander, in the unit -- in which they were.
8 A. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. Besides that, there was another chain in the security organs that
10 was not had a chain of command. But, according to the rules of service
11 that we're going to discuss just now, the rules of service of the
12 security organs in the armed forces of the SFRY, this was the chain of
13 professional command. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The chain of professional command implies that it is a chain
16 based on some kind of subordination, which implied that, for the
17 technical duties of the security organ the superior would issue
18 instructions and orders that had to do with technical command but does
19 not command at any point -- to the superior -- to the subordinate organ
20 of command?
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. Now we're going to look at a 65 ter document on the screen. This
23 is document 65 ter 6069063. Your Honour, we're going to look at page 1.
24 Mr. Raseta, the rules of service of the security organ in the
25 armed forces of the SFRY, that was published, as it says, in 1984; is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes, that is correct.
3 Q. And that rule of service for you, other than the basic rules that
4 pertain to every officer of the army of the Yugoslavia or, rather, the
5 Yugoslav People's Army at that time, this rules of service was your basic
6 document on the basis of which the security organs functioned of the JNA
7 at the time; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. This rules of service was applied while you were a member of the
10 army of Yugoslavia
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. No other rules of service of the security organs were drafted
13 after the adoption of the law of the army of Yugoslavia, but this old
14 rules of service was applied from 1984; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. While you were an officer in the Serbian army of Krajina, a
17 security officer in the Serbian army of Krajina, the Republic of Serbian
18 Krajina and the Serbian army of Krajina did not have their own rules of
19 service for the security organs of the SVK; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. And while you were in the SVK, as the security organs, you
22 applied these rules of service; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now I would like to us look at a number of articles. I think
25 this will be important also because of the things you said during the
1 examination-in-chief regarding special methods and generally and about
2 the relationships of security organs within the system of command.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at Article 69. I
4 apologise to the court officer because I did not already specify the
5 pages of the document in e-court. In the B/C/S version, this is, I
6 think, on page 9, in the B/C/S. Yes, it's in chapter II. That is
8 This is on page 10 in the English. And if we can see the B/C/S
9 version also on the screen, and if we can also zoom in a little bit on
10 this left side of the screen.
11 Q. I do not wish to read anything aloud. Everybody has it in front
12 of you.
13 But, sir, can you please read Article 16 to yourself.
14 Is this what I asked you a little bit earlier? Does this Article
15 say that the organ of -- the security organ in a unit, regardless of the
16 type of unit, is subordinate and is responsible for its work to the
17 commander of that unit?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. The chief of security -- well, let's say the assistant commander
20 for security, which is what it was called for example in the 3rd Army
21 where you were, there was no such function, was there?
22 A. No, there wasn't.
23 Q. All right. Let's go to some lower level. The chief of security
24 in a brigade?
25 A. No. That didn't exist either. It did exist in units at the
1 level of the battalion, however.
2 Q. All right. Very well. There was no deputy -- assistant security
3 commander in a brigade?
4 A. The chief of security in the brigade.
5 Q. The chief of security as the highest organ of security in a unit
6 is responsible to his commander?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And in the chain of command is subordinate to him?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you, in the Serbian army of the Krajina as the chief of the
11 security, were subordinate to Celeketic?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Another Article is important for later on, and I assume that the
14 Trial Chamber will read these Articles once they're entered into the
15 evidence. But in any case, let's look at Article 17 which states:
16 "The federal secretary for national defence or a military officer
17 authorised by him manages JNA security organs with regard to the
18 application of the methods and means of the work for these organs?"
19 This Article is often mentioned in this rules of service and
20 other rules also referred to it. In your practice, are you aware that in
21 practice the federal secretary transferred this authority to the
22 Security Administration and to the chief of the Security Administration
23 of the JNA and later to the Security Administration at the General Staff
24 of the VJ?
25 So these rules -- actually, the powers arising from this Article
1 were later transferred to this service. Is that correct?
2 A. May I answer?
3 Yes, I am aware of this. Just one small correction. The federal
4 secretary delegates this authority down to the army commander -- or,
5 rather, during combat, the corps commanders and the divisions.
6 Q. Please look at Article 18. I'm not going to read it aloud, but
7 just please tell me after you read it to yourself; I have a question.
8 A. Yes, I have read it.
9 Q. Is this Article what I was asking you about, professional
10 management between the security organs of the superior and the
11 subordinate unit?
12 A. Absolutely, yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 Now, I would like us to clarify from the positions of the Defence
15 your answers about the methods.
16 Let's look at page 12 of the B/C/S. Page 14 in the English.
17 We're looking at the chapter which is entitled: Methods and
18 means of work of the security organs.
19 Can you please read this Article? I assume that you are familiar
20 with it.
21 A. Which one?
22 Q. The 30th.
23 A. Yes, I have read it.
24 Q. Does this Article confirm what you said earlier during the
25 examination-in-chief, that in using the means and assets under the
1 authority of Article 17, as we saw who decides and who gives a specific
2 security organ that uses those methods and assets informs, according to
3 the professional line of responsibility, the person who issued those
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Simple example. You were talking about the time of your service
7 in the JNA in the army of Yugoslavia
8 happened when you were in the Serbian army of the Krajina.
9 You, from your professional superior, from the security organ,
10 receive bugging assets or equipment for use, and you use those assets
11 pursuant to your methods of security work. You are obliged according to
12 the rules of service of the security organ to inform him about the use of
13 these listening devices.
14 A. About the results of the application, yes; that is correct.
15 Q. And what you told Mr. Saxon, and I interpret it like that, that
16 you told him, if assets were given to you from the
17 Security Administration of the army of Yugoslavia for listening, for you
18 to use as the security organ in the Serbian army of the Krajina and you
19 abused those assets or equipment, you were not able to -- you, the person
20 using that, I'm not talking about you personally, were not -- could not
21 be held responsible according to the professional line, in terms of the
22 Security Administration for this illegal work until you returned to the
23 army of Yugoslavia
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. And if your subordinated organs, security organ in the SVK
1 committed something like that, they were responsible to you for their
2 unprofessional use of the equipment, to you as the person in charge of
3 the security organ.
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Well, I'm going to dwell on this document or this topic a little
6 bit longer on Monday, if I remember where I left off.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But as I see the time now,
8 Your Honours, I suggest that now we adjourn until Monday.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
10 Sir, unfortunately, we are not able to finish with you. And
11 unfortunately, again, we are not sitting tomorrow for various other
12 reasons. The next time we are going to sit is going to be Monday, so you
13 will have to come back on Monday, okay?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I understand.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, because you are in the witness stand during
16 -- from now until Monday, you may not discuss this case with anyone until
17 you have finished giving your testimony, not even with your lawyers,
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 Then the case stands adjourned to Monday, the 11th of May, at
22 2.00 in the afternoon, in this courtroom, I, okay?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Court adjourned.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.
1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of May,
2 2009, at 2.15 p.m.