1 Thursday, 14 May, 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom. Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
9 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances for
11 the day starting with the Prosecution, please.
12 MR. SAXON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Dan Saxon,
13 April Carter, Inger de Ru, for the Prosecution.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. And for the Defence.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Daniela Tasic,
16 Chad Mair, and Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of Mr. Perisic.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The size of the team is reduced today. Thank you
18 so much.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, it is.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, Ms. Carter will call the next witness.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter. Good afternoon to you.
23 MS. CARTER: Good afternoon, Your Honour. The Prosecution at
24 this time calls Colonel Ijaz Hussain Malik.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Is he still in Pakistan?
1 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour, I proofed him as of yesterday so he
2 is somewhere near, I'm just not clear where he is hiking in from.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is he a protected witness?
4 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, he was for some reason given a
5 pseudonym MP-212. But that was inadvertent, he does not require any
6 protective measures.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, sir. Will you please make the
10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
11 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: IJAZ HUSSAIN MALIK
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, sir. You may now be seated.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
16 MS. CARTER: May it please the court.
17 Examination by Ms. Carter:
18 Q. Colonel Malik, will you please introduce yourself to the Court?
19 A. I'm Colonel Ijaz Hussain Malik and I'm retired from Pakistan
20 army. Presently I am serving as a major in Bahrain National Guard.
21 Q. Can you briefly give the Court a description of your educational
22 and professional background?
23 A. I had my intermediate from military college and the bachelors
24 engineering from the Pakistan
25 course which is equivalent to the BSC
2 country, and I have served the army for 29 years.
3 Q. Thank you, sir. Prior to today, were you given an opportunity to
4 review your previous statement and transcript of your testimony in the
5 Dragomir Milosevic case?
6 A. Yes, I was given the opportunity. I read it.
7 Q. Relating to your statement which bears 65 ter number 9390, you've
8 indicated that you had a few corrections to be made; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, I made certain corrections but these were basically the
10 clerical mistakes. There was nothing different from the actual factual
12 Q. But in relation to the clerical corrections you requested, please
13 advise if these are the anticipated changes. At page 2 on the 14th line
14 of the text which currently reads "French, a French OP" should read
15 "French OP." On page 2 at the 20th line of text which currently reads:
16 "Especially at night we could clearly see when the mortar shell
17 was launched from Ilidza and we," should read "especially at night we
18 could clearly see when the mortar shell was launched from Ilidza and in
19 most cases we."
20 At page 2 of line 24 text, currently reading, "I had a training
21 in Pakistan
22 2 at the 25th line of text you've requested that we strike the language,
23 "before I was sent to the former Yugoslavia," at page 2, line 35, "aimed
24 to" should read "aimed at."
25 Page 3 at the fourth line of text "not could be" should be read
1 "could not be." Page 3 at the seventh line of text, "direction of fire
2 also in another manner," should simply read "direction of fire."
3 Page 3 at the 9th line of text, "I think that delayed fuses were
4 used should read, "I think the delayed fuses were used." Page 3 at the
5 tenth line of text, "I was injured myself in," should read "I was
6 injured in."
7 Page 3 at the 29th line of text, "house was for 90 percent,"
8 should read, "house was 90 percent." At page 3 at the 38th line of text,
9 "in my head," should read, "in my forehead." And finally, page 3 at the
10 39th line of text "I stayed some days," should read, "I stayed for some
11 days." Are those, the changes that you've indicated?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Bearing in mind these changes, if I were to ask you those same
14 questions today, would your answers be the same?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. CARTER: I tender 65 ter number 9390 into evidence.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
18 given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2343, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MS. CARTER:
22 Q. Relating to your transcript which bears the 65 ter numbers 9391,
23 and 9392, you've indicated that you have some changes to suggest there as
24 well in relation to 65 ter 9391; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, it is correct.
1 Q. Specifically at transcript page 5399, at line 18, "to Croatia
2 should read, "to Croatian." At transcript page 5399, line 20, in which
3 the record indicates that your response was indiscernible that should
4 read "count." At reference page --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The reference to Croatia, the "to" there, is that
6 "2" the figure or "to" the preposition?
7 MS. CARTER: Two the figure, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You'll have to put "2" the figure there.
9 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. At transcript page 5400 line 7 which currently reads, "city
11 main," should read "main city." Transcript page 5401, at line 19, "and
12 from," should read "and in." Transcript page 5401 at line 20,
13 "infantries" should read "infantry," singular.
14 At page 5402, line 17, "gunway" should read, "convoy."
15 Transcript page 5402 at line 19, "normal" should be read, "surrounding."
16 5405, line 19, "they is were timed," should read "they were timed." And
17 finally at 5405, line 21, "is going do be moved," should read "is going
18 to move." Are those the changes that you have suggested?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Bearing in mind these changes if I were to ask you those same
21 questions today, would your answers be the same?
22 A. It would be the same.
23 MS. CARTER: I tender 65 ter numbers 9391 and 9392 into evidence.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Simultaneously or separately?
25 MS. CARTER: They would be separate exhibits, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we have exhibit number for 9391 please.
2 It's admitted.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2344 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And also for 9292.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2345.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
7 MS. CARTER:
8 Q. For clarity of the record in the Dragomir Milosevic transcript,
9 P635 was tendered during Colonel Malik's testimony. It has been
10 previously admitted in the present case as P443. As this witness has
11 been called pursuant to 92 ter, I would like to read out a brief summary
12 of his testimony.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means, ma'am.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, we recently received the brief summary of
15 this witness's testimony, and there is language in it which is, from our
16 review, not only of his statement but also of the transcript factually
18 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I took the summary from his statement
19 and our 65 ter summary putting it no a narrative form.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't even know what is factually incorrect. We
21 haven't been told.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. There's language that says:
23 "The witness not only saw three to four air-bomb launchings from
24 BSA territory at Ilidza but also fell victim to one on 1 July, 1995."
25 As I understand it, Ms. Carter has indicated that she took that
1 from the witness's statement, which says:
2 "In my tour of duty, there were a couple of modified air-bombs
3 launched from the direction of Bosnian Serb held territory in Ilidza. I
4 think I have seen three or four of these bombs."
5 Which is not -- the witness not only saw but rather speculative
6 with regard to what he saw as opposed to making a distinction that he saw
7 a number and then was injured by one.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Carter.
9 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, as the Court has already pointed out,
10 I've yet to read the summary out for the Court to be able to rule on
11 that. In fact if I have summarised that specific sentence correctly, if
12 the Court would like me to read out the summary, I certainly can.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I think, Madam Carter, it should be a simple
14 thing for you to deal with if you agree with Mr. Guy-Smith. If indeed
15 the statement says, "I think I've seen three or four of these bombs."
16 And that is substantially different from saying, "not only saw three or
17 four." Because "not only saw three or four" means, in fact, he has saw
18 more than three or four. Not only this but something else. So it would
19 suggest that he has seen more than three or four.
20 MS. CARTER: If the Court feels that that is the intimation, I
21 can certainly forego that sentence. As the Court is aware, any summary
22 that I would read out would simply be a summary to allow anybody who is
23 witnessing this trial with the evidence itself is coming from the
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, go ahead and prosecute your case.
1 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Colonel Malik is a retired Colonel in the Pakistani Army
3 currently serving with the Bahrain National Guard. He served as a
4 United Nations military observer beginning in October 1994. In May of
5 1995, he was deployed to Sarajevo
6 Hrasnica. The witness provides evidence primarily regarding shelling
7 incidents and crater analyses. In the witness's area of responsibility,
8 most of the shelling was aimed at civilian areas --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters.
10 MS. CARTER: Certainly.
11 The witness indicates that he thought he had seen three to four
12 of these bombs. In addition, he also fell victim to a bomb on 1 July,
13 1995. This incident is scheduled incident A-8. The witness states that
14 an air-bomb is an indiscriminate weapon that cannot be used against
16 And I now turn to the present evidence of this witness.
17 Q. Colonel Malik, in the Dragomir Milosevic case, you were shown a
18 map which you proceeded to annotate throughout the transcript from pages
19 5403 to 5409. Unfortunately, we do not have that map here today so for
20 clarity of the record, we must undergo this exercise again.
21 MS. CARTER: I call up P439. At the lower left quadrant, and
22 I'll be requesting the assistance of the usher.
23 Q. Colonel Malik, can you orient yourself to this map?
24 A. Yes, please.
25 Q. I know you in your Dragomir Milosevic testimony had some
1 difficulty identifying locations on the map. Is it zoomed in enough for
2 you to be able to identify those locations now?
3 A. I think it's much clearer now.
4 Q. Okay. Sir, with the assistance of the usher, I'm going to ask
5 you to locate Hrasnica and mark that location with an H. Sir, as we were
6 having technical difficulties, if you can again mark the area Hrasnica
7 with an H.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. I see that you've done so. Colonel Malik, will you now mark the
10 location of your observation post with the initials OP?
11 A. I'll mark it but maybe I'm doing it after 14, 15 year, so it will
12 not be 100 percent correct, but I think that it was very close to the
13 track that was on the Igman hill. Somewhere here.
14 Q. If you can mark that location with an OP.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, can you please mark the Convoy Road.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. If you can mark the Convoy Road with a C, please.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. And finally, can you please also draw the route to Sarajevo?
21 A. If the buildup area here is the Sokolovic and Butmir. As I
22 remember I can recall probably it was the road used. It was from the
23 right of the strip, right corner of the strip where the built-up area is
24 if it is Sokolovic and Butmir probably it used to go from the inside of
25 these two places.
1 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. And finally, will you please mark the
2 location of Ilidza with an I?
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Thank you, sir.
5 MS. CARTER: I ask that a screen shot be taken of this annotated
6 map and that it be tendered into evidence.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's so admitted. May it please be given an
8 exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2346, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MS. CARTER:
12 Q. Sir, beginning at page 5413 of your Dragomir Milosevic
13 transcript, you describe the air-bomb incident where you personally were
14 fell victim.
15 MS. CARTER: I call up P442. Is there any way to show both
16 images? There we go.
17 Q. Sir, do you recognise these images?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What are they?
20 A. The one down below is our house, and this was the UN vehicle
21 which was damaged during the incident.
22 Q. Where were you within the house at the lower portion of our
24 A. Shall I mark it?
25 Q. Certainly.
1 MS. CARTER: With the assistance of the usher, that would be
3 THE WITNESS: You can see this window. I was just in front of it
4 two metres from this place in the window. There was a dining table, I
5 was sitting on that and writing a letter.
6 MS. CARTER: Thank you, sir. If I may have a screen shot of this
7 image and tender it into evidence.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
9 given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2347, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 MS. CARTER:
13 Q. Sir, on the day of the air-bomb incident, was the vehicle that we
14 see in this image the sole vehicle or item that was in front of this
16 A. You say again, I couldn't get the question.
17 Q. We see one vehicle in front of the house in this picture. Was
18 that the only thing in front of the house the day of the air-bomb attack?
19 A. No. There were another vehicle that was [indiscernible] vehicle
20 and then we have a generator also in front of this vehicle. You see two
21 or three vehicles turning here.
22 Q. What happened to those other two items that we don't see in this
24 A. I think they removed it from here now. This was the mostly
25 damaged car. The other one was comparatively lesser and that was used
1 for evacuating the other UNMO, the military observer, [indiscernible]
2 officer and probably that was the reason that it was not here. So that
3 was used for evacuating the other UNMO to the hospital. But that was
4 also damaged, but not -- it was in working condition; whereas the
5 generator, it was a heavy generator, electric generator, and this after
6 effect, because of the pressure jumped from that place and was fallen
7 about two metres away inside the house.
8 Q. Thank you, sir.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, jumped [Microphone not activated] the
10 generator jumped?
11 THE WITNESS: When I say jumped, it was because of the pressure,
12 it just blown off and on the other side. The generator is not jumping
13 itself, but because of the pressure.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm so sorry. I'll repeat my question. You say
16 it had been outside and as it got blown it fell inside the house?
17 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
19 MS. CARTER:
20 Q. Sir, how heavy was that generator?
21 A. Sorry?
22 Q. How heavy was that generator?
23 A. It was pretty heavy. When we had to move it, almost the entire
24 team used to come out to move it from that place to any other place.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. And as to the top image, what is that?
1 A. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I think this is the second
2 house. The second house that was damaged, more than our house. We were
3 lucky we had these vehicles in front of us, so mainly the [indiscernible]
4 was on these vehicles [indiscernible]; whereas the second house, which
5 was - if we refer to the picture down below - it was on the right of it,
6 and there was nothing in front of there, so that got more damaged.
7 MS. CARTER: I thank you, sir, for your answers. And I pass the
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Carter.
10 Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
12 Q. The house that you were staying in Hrasnica was a home that you
13 were staying in with a number of other members of your United Nations
14 military observation unit; correct?
15 A. It is not a unit. It is the United Nations military observers,
16 and normally there's a team, officer 10 to 12 military observers; and the
17 higher accomodation [indiscernible] in that area are several
18 accommodation, and they stay together in that, so it was one team staying
20 Q. Okay. Team. And the team that you were staying with included, I
21 believe, a Canadian gentleman by the name of Captain Hash or Hache. I
22 don't know how you pronounce it exactly?
23 A. Yes, there was one Canadian.
24 Q. And you learned, did you not, after you were taken from the house
25 that some soldiers had come to the house and had stolen some of the
1 possessions of the UNMO team; correct?
2 A. Correct, but I not say exactly the soldiers. There was some
3 people in soldier's uniform.
4 Q. I see.
5 A. And few civilians also.
6 Q. So it was a combination of individuals in soldier's uniforms and
7 civilians who came after you left and stole some items from the home?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And they stole, as I understand it, not only personal items from
10 the standpoint of money, but they also stole a number of items that had
11 been assigned to your team; correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Okay. Did you ever personally determine whether or not the
14 individuals who were dressed in uniforms were members of the ABiH army?
15 A. Can you repeat the question, I'm not really sure of the question,
17 Q. Sure. Did you ever personally learn, after the incident
18 occurred, whether or not the individuals who were dressed in uniforms who
19 had stolen from your team were members of the ABiH army?
20 A. No, after that incident our team shifted from that place to
21 the -- to another place which what a little away from that area, and,
22 frankly, I'm not really sure. I mean it was just reporting by my
23 friends. I personally did not do it.
24 Q. Okay. With regard to the time that you were at the home in
25 Hrasnica, did you have occasion to see groups of individuals dressed in
1 military uniforms that belong to the ABiH army?
2 A. Groups, if you call three to four people, yes, I had seen. But
3 not more than that. And the reason was, I mean, that was what we were
4 told there, that many of these soldiers, the ABiH soldiers, they ignite
5 some of them, they stay there on the top, and some of them where they
6 have their houses there, they come there down and stay at their house for
7 say, two hours, three hours, four hours and then go back.
8 Q. And when you were told that many of these soldiers, the ABiH
9 soldiers, would stay there on the top, were they staying on the top in a
10 particular area together? So, for example, you saw a number of small
11 groups of three or four individuals dressed in military uniforms who all
12 were going towards the same area?
13 A. No, I never seen them going on that side. I've seen them on the
14 area that we live, that is, in those streets where we at time just one;
15 at certain other time, two, three, and roaming in that area, and
16 generally the people used to say that they are coming from the front and
17 they'll go back after two, three hours, four hours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Malik, you it may very well be that counsel
19 understands what you say, but some of us will not understand, and I would
20 like you to be a little more precise. The second time now. The first
21 time you said they stayed there on the top. We don't know, top of what.
22 Now you say, they were going that side, I don't know which side.
23 THE WITNESS: Right, sir.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You see that.
25 THE WITNESS: Sir, I would like to explain. It maybe with the
1 help of the map. The point is, if you -- Hrasnica was at the base of the
2 Igman hill. On the right and left, that is Igman hilltop and towards the
3 right and left tops --
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might interrupt you because you said you
5 could use the benefit of a map, so I would suggest for a moment, let's
6 get a map up on the screen which could be of some assistance then. Which
7 would be P439. If we could have P439 up on the screen. Then if the
8 usher could assist with the explanation he is giving His Honour.
9 Q. First of all, before we go any further is the size of the area
10 sufficient for you to be able to work with and make the explanations you
11 were making to His Honour, or would you like it a little bit bigger?
12 A. Certainly I'll not be able to point out the exact locations
13 because I've not been to those places. I'll just give the general line
14 that we were told that they go back.
15 Q. Very well.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Actually when you say at the top, if you just
17 explain at the top of what, then we understand.
18 THE WITNESS: The top of the right and left corner of the Igman
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is fine. Thank you so much.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH:
24 Q. And could you tell us as you sit here today whether or not when
25 you saw these individuals in groups, and I understand these were small
1 groups, but when you saw these individuals in groups, did you count these
2 groups and then put them into a report for purposes of forwarding on to
3 your headquarters?
4 A. Two or three probably was not an alarming number, so I'm not very
5 sure whether it was reported or not. But definitely I had seen these
6 two, three, fours.
7 Q. Did you see these groups on a daily basis? What happened after
8 the fighting every day, every other day? How often did you see them?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You keep refer together groups and the witness
10 keeps saying two to three people.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's what I meant by a group, two to three
12 I'm not trying to muddy the record.
13 Q. The two to three people that you saw wearing uniforms; did you
14 see these people on a daily basis?
15 A. Not for a specific time but just off and on. Maybe one day I see
16 them, the other day not and the second day after. But, yes, maybe after
17 the one or two days, yes.
18 Q. Were you able to identify the two to three people that you saw as
19 being the same each time that you saw them, or were you seeing different
21 A. Yes, same people I would identify were the one, and they were
22 staying when one went to the Sokolovic, they were just -- I mean, the
23 house that we are renting, just in front of that house, that belongs to
24 one of the soldier, so he used to come by, identified him, but rest, no.
25 Q. Could you tell us if you know what the rank was of these
2 A. Say again, please?
3 Q. The rank of these soldiers?
4 A. They were CPO
5 soldiers, not the officers.
6 Q. Apart from those soldiers, did you have occasion while you were
7 going on your patrol from your home to the observation post to see other
8 soldiers strolling about from the BiH army --
9 A. I had not said that I had not seen, maybe one or two, but
10 alarming case was not there, I have not seen 10, 12, 20 people roaming in
11 that area when we used to move from our location to the OP.
12 Q. With regard to the kind of information that was contained in your
13 reports as a member of an UNMO team, did you receive information from
14 UNPROFOR which you acted upon or included in your reports?
15 A. Yes, there was a form that we used to fill in and send it across.
16 Q. Okay. And would it be fair to say that there was active sharing
17 of information back and forth between UNPROFOR and the UNMOs concerning
18 what was going on?
19 A. Right, I'm sorry, I would not like to be confused with UNPROFOR
20 and UNMOs. The UNMO has their own channels. We used to follow that. So
21 I thought when I gave the last answer, UNPROFOR, it was not UNPROFOR that
22 way, it is UNMOs, and sharing and back sharing, I'm not really sure, what
23 is the question?
24 Q. Did you share information with UNPROFOR units concerning the
25 observations that you made?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. No.
4 Q. After July 1st, you left the Hrasnica area?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And moved to another area; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And where was that?
9 A. That was in Sokolovic.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if we could -- the map is still there.
11 Q. Could you identify for us on the map where that is?
12 A. As I recall, probably there's a little difference between the map
13 and the one that I can recall. The built-up area here is a little
14 towards the left, whereas I thought probably it should be towards the
15 right; but the first built-up area after Hrasnica, this is Sokolovic, and
16 towards the closer side of the air strip, we got a house.
17 Q. And you maintained the same observation post that you had
18 previously identified; correct?
19 A. This was by the French, and we used to visit that place, yes.
20 And sorry, and other than this, there was another one also which we were
21 manning. Again it was the French. Basically it was the French
22 observation post. It was on the airport.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And one of UNMO used to work there and stay with them for
1 Q. Could you mark on this map here the area that you designated as a
2 second home as H2 for your second house?
3 A. I may not be 100 percent correct.
4 Q. I understand, this is approximation.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It's the best one can do with the passage of time.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And could you also mark on that map the area which would be OP2,
9 which is the French observation post that you were referring to?
10 A. It was a tower.
11 Q. I'm sorry I missed that last word, I apologise. It was a --
12 A. The tower that we have in the airport.
13 Q. Tower. Oh, I understand. My apologies. How high was that
15 A. Exactly, I'm not sure, but ATC and the people that have been
16 sitting there, maybe two stories.
17 Q. Okay. Just for purposes of clarity of the record, if you could
18 mark that, that second place where you put a circle with OP2, I would
19 appreciate it.
20 A. Yes, please.
21 Q. And when you say that the tower was two stories, we previously
22 saw photograph of a home that you were living in, was that the height of
23 the tower? Is that the kind of two stories that you are talking about or
24 was it higher?
25 A. I think a little higher than the house.
1 Q. Can you give us an approximation of how many metres, per chance.
2 If you can, it's fine; if you can't --
3 A. I'm not sure if I have an incorrect answer, maybe 30, 40 metres.
4 I'm not really sure. The ATC tower that we have in the airport, exact,
5 I'm not really sure.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That would be 13, 14 metres higher than the house
7 in which you were staying, or is that from the ground?
8 THE WITNESS: That is from the ground, sir.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: From the ground, thank you.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay that clarifies it.
11 Q. Lastly just regard to this one issue again concerning the area
12 where OP2 was, was that area on elevated ground, or was --
13 A. No, it was normal plain ground. It was the unused ATC tower of
14 the old airport.
15 Q. Okay. Perfect, I understand now.
16 A. Yes, please.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 A. Thank you, sir.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you Mr. Guy-Smith.
20 Madam Carter.
21 MS. CARTER: If I can have just one moment.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I believe the exhibits that have been
24 tendered in this case speak for themselves, so I have no further
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You said the exhibits what?
2 Okay. Thank you so much, I heard you, thank you.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: And you are going to ask me what I want to do
4 with this, yes, if we could tender that as Defendant's next in order,
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could that map please be admitted in as an exhibit
7 and be given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D95.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I have a question that I would
12 like to ask you. There's something that I didn't quite understand in
13 your testimony. You said that every now and again, but not every day
14 there were soldiers from the ABiH army that were in the vicinity of your
15 observation post; is that correct?
16 And I didn't quite understand whether they were there because
17 they live there and they were coming to visit their family, or they were
18 coming home every now and again, or whether it was because they were on
19 rounds or patrolling the neighbourhood, or whether there was barracks in
20 the vicinity. What was the reason for them being there? Could you
21 explain, please.
22 A. Number one, you said it was closer to our OP; no, it was not OP.
23 It was closer to our accommodation, which was a street, and we could find
24 the people in those streets.
25 Number two is regarding the patrolling, as I know, we were told
1 that they have shifts, when I said they were there on the top, that is
2 they were defending there, they were deployed there, whatever they were
3 doing there, they had shift; some of them used to stay there and some of
4 them used to come down to their houses for staying a night, for staying
5 two or three hours and then going back. In process if they were
6 patrolling two, three, I can't say. I'm not very sure. But certainly
7 they were coming down and going back.
8 We used to see them in the streets not in our observation.
9 Observation post is on the Igman hill, and we haven't seen people closer
10 to that observation post.
11 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] All right. I've understood what
12 mistake I made. In other words, they came in your neighbourhood or close
13 to the house you were living in because they were visiting family?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, any questions arising?
16 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.
19 Further cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
20 Q. So I understand, because as I understand your answer, you told
21 that they have shifts when they were on the top, they were defending
22 there, they were deployed there, whatever they were doing there. So
23 would it be fair to say that what happened is you saw these individuals
24 moving through an area where, based upon the information you had, they
25 were engaged in military activities on occasion, and also you saw people,
1 those same people, moving through the area where they were engaged in
2 sleeping at night before they would once again engage in military
4 A. Sir, I'm sure you must be clear about the area. The line, the
5 conflict line was not very far off. It was right on the left and right
6 of the Igman hill and then going right around this area, so I'll say,
7 yes, on the top, definitely. I mean, it was not accessible to us, we
8 have never been to that place, but somebody fighting there; so I'm sure
9 they must be -- the soldiers coming must be from that place.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you so much.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 That brings us to the end of your testimony, sir. Thank you so
13 much for coming all the way to come and testify at the Tribunal. You are
14 now excused, you may stand down. And please do travel well back home,
16 THE WITNESS: I'm so grateful, sir. Thank you so much.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. You may stand down.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, yes, I see you standing up.
20 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, that is the last witness whom the
21 Prosecution has scheduled for this week. As I believe the Chamber is
22 aware, the previously next scheduled witness, Mr. Tucker, who was going
23 to begin testifying on Monday will not be able to start his testimony
24 next week because of issues that have arisen. Therefore, the next
25 scheduled witness would be General Smith beginning on the morning of
1 Wednesday the 20th.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: So we are not sitting on Monday and Tuesday, is
3 that what you are saying?
4 MR. SAXON: We do not have a witness for Monday and Tuesday,
5 Your Honour, that's correct.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, next week, Wednesday is 20th. The
7 matter stands adjourned to Wednesday the 20th of May at 9.00 in the
8 morning, Courtroom I. Court adjourned.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.10 p.m.
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of May
11 2009, at 9.00 a.m.