1 Monday, 25 May, 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances for
12 the day, starting with the Prosecution, please.
13 MR. SAXON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Dan Saxon,
14 Lorna Bolton, Salvatore Cannata, and Ms. Inger de Ru for the Prosecution.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Just before we call the next witness,
16 one small housekeeping matter.
17 I beg your pardon, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
19 afternoon to everyone taking part in this proceeding. Today Mr. Perisic
20 is going to be represented by Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith, Milos Androvic,
21 Daniela Tasic, and a young intern Katharine Marshall, and with your leave
22 she is here in the courtroom. And my name is Lukic.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic, and I'm terribly
24 sorry for doing that. I was just going to say before we start with the
25 calling the witness, just one little thing. I want to believe that on
1 the 20th of May, the Trial Chamber issued a confidential decision
2 pursuant to the Rule 92 quater granting a motion by the Prosecution to
3 admit 10 exhibits pertaining to an unavailable witness. And that
4 although the reasoning of the decision was confidential, the admission of
5 those exhibits is a matter of public record. Would you agree with me,
6 Mr. Cannata, or Mr. Saxon?
7 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine. That being the case, then those exhibits
9 ought to be made public, and it is so ordered that they be made public.
10 And those exhibits are, 65 ter number 09549 which is admitted as
11 Exhibit P2376, going right through to 65 ter number 09558 which is
12 admitted as Exhibit P2385. All those in between those two numbers must
13 be admitted publicly. If the Registrar will kindly do that for us.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Will do, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
16 Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, Mr. Cannata will call the next witness.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
19 MR. CANNATA: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to you, sir.
21 MR. CANNATA: Prosecution calls Dragomir Vasic.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, sir. Good afternoon. Good
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please make the declaration.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. You may be seated now.
5 WITNESS: DRAGOMIR VASIC
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Cannata.
8 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.
9 Examination by Mr. Cannata:
10 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Can you please state your full name, place, and date of birth for
13 the record.
14 A. My name is Dragomir Vasic. I was born on the 30th of October,
15 1964, in Tuzla, Bosnia and Herzegovina.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to turn your attention to the events in
17 Srebrenica in July 1995, and to do so, I'd like you to start by telling
18 us what was your profession in July 1995.
19 A. I have a university degree in law. And in 1995 I was the head of
20 the public security centre in Zvornik. That centre covered eight
21 municipalities and the Birac region.
22 Q. Can you please list the municipalities covered by the public
23 security centre in Zvornik?
24 A. The seat was in Zvornik, so that would be the first municipality,
25 followed by Osmace, Sekovici, Vlasenica, Milici, Bratunac, and Skelani.
1 Q. I only count seven municipalities, where is the eighth?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata, who is testifying?
3 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, the witness said that the Zvornik
4 centre covered eight municipality.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did he say eight?
6 MR. CANNATA: Yes. It's line --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I beg your pardon.
8 MR. CANNATA: 18.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm so sorry.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My mistake, after the 12th of July,
11 the eighth municipality became Srebrenica.
12 MR. CANNATA:
13 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
14 Now, going back to the events in July 1995, where were you on the
15 evening of the 13th of July, 1995.
16 A. The whole day of the 13th of July, 1995, I spent in the town of
17 Srebrenica. My task was to establish a Public Security Station and to
18 protect the property from looting. According to the minister's order,
19 that was my principal task. I left at 10.00 a.m., and I returned
20 sometime at around 2000 hours to Bratunac.
21 Q. And what did you do on the evening of the 13th July in Bratunac?
22 A. After my return from Srebrenica, I went to the Bratunac police
23 station where I met with the head of the station, Miodrag Josipovic.
24 Josipovic informed me that a large group of Muslim prisoners from
25 Srebrenica had been brought to town who had previously surrendered to our
1 forces on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. Josipovic also told me that
2 there was an order of the command of the VRS to put the prisoners in the
3 school, at the stadium, and on buses. He highlighted the problem of
4 providing security for these men and said that the men fit for military
5 service from Bratunac were being gathered together in order to provide
6 assistance to the police for securing the prisoners.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, if you say -- when you say "people had
8 previously surrendered to our forces." Who is the "our"?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to the Army of
10 Republika Srpska and the police forces deployed on that particular road.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good.
12 MR. CANNATA:
13 Q. Thank you.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you belonged to the VRS?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a member of the police of the
16 MUP of Republika Srpska.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: MUP. Thank you, Mr. Cannata.
18 MR. CANNATA:
19 Q. And, sir, what did you do after the meeting with Josipovic?
20 A. We both realised that we had a huge problem in Bratunac and then
21 I went to the office of Mr. Miroslav Deronjic, who at the time was an
22 acting civilian commissioner appointed by the president of the republic.
23 I wanted to inform him about the pending problem and ask him if it is
24 possible for him to communicate with someone from a higher level and try
25 to get some instructions as it to what was to be done with these men
2 Q. Thank you, sir. What time was it?
3 A. That was immediately after Josipovic briefed me, so I would say
4 at around 8.30 in the evening.
5 Q. How long did you stay in Mr. Deronjic's office?
6 A. During my first visit, I saw Mr. Ljubo Simic, the president of
7 the municipality in Mr. Deronjic's office, as well as Srbislav Davidovic
8 the chairman of the executive committee and Mr. Deronjic himself. The
9 three of them were discussing this problem as well, and I saw that they
10 were concerned about the situation. I spent there perhaps half an hour.
11 Q. Thank you, sir.
12 You indicated that that was your first visit to Mr. Deronjic's
13 office. What did you do there?
14 A. I informed Mr. Deronjic, although he already knew about this
15 alarming situation in Bratunac and told him that it would be necessary
16 for him to consult either President Karadzic or someone else in order to
17 be told what to do next and how proceed.
18 Mr. Deronjic told me that he was going to call President Karadzic
19 and ask for instructions as how to proceed further. He suggested to us
20 to try and find or locate the men who were not available in order to
21 reinforce the security until he sees and decides how to proceed next.
22 Q. Sir, my question was, what did you do after meeting the first
23 time with Mr. Deronjic?
24 A. After my first meeting, I returned to the police station in
25 Bratunac to Mr. Josipovic's office. During that evening, I went twice or
1 three times back to Deronjic's office with the aim of finding out whether
2 communication was established and what were instructions that he had
3 possibly received.
4 Q. What happened during your last visit to Mr. Deronjic?
5 A. It was almost midnight
6 hear the latest information. I found in his office him and a man whom I
7 didn't know at the time, Mr. Deronjic introduced him to me and said that
8 that was Colonel Beara. And he also introduced me as the head of the
9 security centre of Zvornik.
10 I noticed that the two were arguing and there was a row between
11 them. There were many people in the corridor, quite a crowd. Deronjic
12 left his office for a short while because somebody wanted to see him, and
13 then I asked Mr. Beara about what was going on, what the problem was. He
14 told me that he had come there on a mission and that he was entrusted
15 with the prisoners, and that he had received an order for all the
16 prisoners to be killed.
17 I asked him whose order it was, and he just replied, "it came
18 from the boss." When I asked him which boss are you referring to, his
19 answer was, "General Mladic." When Deronjic returned to the office,
20 their argument and quarrel continued.
21 That was the first time that I heard Deronjic establish a
22 telephone line with President Karadzic. The president conveyed to him an
23 encrypted order which read "Miroslav, the commodity must be in the
24 warehouse." Deronjic claimed that he had understood the message as an
25 order to move the prisoners from Bratunac to a prison facility. And he
1 insisted several times with Mr. Beara for that to be done pursuant to the
2 order. Eventually, Mr. Beara unwillingly said that he would comply.
3 Q. Sir, for the future, let me reminds you that I will like to
4 receive short precise answers to my questions. Is that understood?
5 Now, I have a set of follow-up questions with what you just said.
6 Let me start with Colonel Beara, you indicated that you never met him
7 before. How did he look like?
8 A. He was a big man, 190 centimetres tall with a big head and grey
9 hair. What I noticed about him was that he was in civilian clothes. I
10 can't tell you for sure what kind of civilian clothes, but I'm sure they
11 were civilian clothes.
12 Q. Thank you, sir.
13 Now, you also indicated that at some point Mr. Deronjic spoke to
14 President Karadzic. Now, did you speak to President Karadzic that night?
15 A. No, no, I didn't speak with President Karadzic, and I was not
16 present when Mr. Deronjic spoke with him.
17 Q. And lastly, you said that you indicated that "eventually
18 Mr. Beara unwillingly said that he would comply." Now, did he say that
19 to you personally?
20 A. He said that to Deronjic, and I was present because the
21 conversation was between the two of them.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Cannata, but I thought earlier you had
23 indicated that you said something like that was the first time -- I can't
24 remember what you said, but telephone line with President Karadzic. Can
25 you repeat that, the sentence on the transcript doesn't look complete.
1 Earlier when you related that the boss had given instructions and that
2 the boss was General Mladic, and you said when Deronjic returned to the
3 office the argument and quarrel continued and then that was the first
4 time that I, and then telephone line with President Karadzic. Can you
5 just explain that sentence. Do you remember that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. It was not a good
7 translation. Mr. Deronjic said then that he had spoken on the telephone
8 with President Karadzic and that at that time after he explained what the
9 situation in Bratunac was, he received instructions from Karadzic in
10 code. I didn't speak with Karadzic, but Mr. Deronjic did.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: But what was happening the first time? You said
12 "that was the first time that I telephone line with President Karadzic."
13 This is what is transcribed here. I'm trying to get exactly what you
14 said earlier.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I didn't say the first
16 time. It's possibly a translation mistake. I heard from Mr. Deronjic
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 Sorry, Mr. Cannata, you may proceed.
20 MR. CANNATA: Can I have one moment to check the transcripts,
21 Your Honour. Just one second.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means. If you want to check what I was
23 asking him about, that's page 7, line 18 to 19.
24 MR. CANNATA:
25 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, what did you do after meeting with
1 Mr. Deronjic and Colonel Beara?
2 A. I went to the police station in Bratunac for a little while, and
3 after that, since I was very tired, I went to sleep.
4 Q. Thank you. Now we are coming to the next day, the morning of the
5 14th of July. Can you tell us --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I am sorry. There's something that I would like
7 to know. This witness had gone to Mr. Deronjic to get instructions on
8 what to do with the prisoners. What were you instructed to do with the
9 prisoners, sir? There's been a quarrel between these two gentlemen, they
10 interpreted the message differently. What instructions were you given?
11 That's what you had gone there for, isn't it, what to do with the
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't ask for any instructions
14 from myself personally. I received -- didn't get any order in that
15 sense. The instructions or the orders were to the army for all detainees
16 to be relocated from Bratunac, I went to see Mr. Deronjic because at the
17 time I was concerned, the town was full of prisoners, and there was
18 nobody to secure them. That is why I went as an intermediary to get
19 something from Mr. Deronjic about this, his opinion.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have testified that when you first went to
21 him, you wanted him to phone somebody higher up who can give you guidance
22 on what to do. And I'm just wanting to know what guidance were you given
23 when you left there now. Were you given any guidance at all on what to
24 do, or were you not?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't receive any instructions
1 about what I should do because that was not in my jurisdiction. Military
2 prisoners are in the jurisdiction of the army, but at the end, Mr. Beara
3 said that he was going to do what Mr. Karadzic ordered Mr. Deronjic.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 Yes, Mr. Cannata.
6 MR. CANNATA:
7 Q. Sir, we are now back to the 14th of July in the morning. Can you
8 tell us what did you do, what you did that day?
9 A. On the 14th at around 7.00 in the morning I arrived at the
10 Bratunac station because I had received information that the Minister of
11 Internal Affairs, Mr. Tomislav Kovac was going to visit Bratunac and
12 Srebrenica that day. I had the intention to prepare for this visit.
13 Q. And what happened when you arrived at the Bratunac station?
14 A. I have to say that organisation was underway in terms of
15 organising vehicles by the army for the prisoners and to set up the
16 convoy which set off towards Zvornik. And then at the time, again,
17 Colonel Beara approached me in front of the police station and that was
18 my second encounter with him.
19 Q. What did he tell you? What did Colonel Beara tell you?
20 A. He repeated that on the next -- that the order of General Mladic
21 to him was to kill the prisoners, and he asked if I could set aside a few
22 trusty -- or trusted policemen who would be placed under his command in
23 order to carry out this task.
24 I said that I was not going to give any police officers,
25 policemen for that, and that as far as I understood, the order was not
1 such and that I did not wish to participate in something like that. He
2 turned away angrily and left.
3 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, sir.
4 Your Honour, if I may have a moment to confer with my colleagues.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, sir.
6 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. CANNATA:
9 Q. There is one minor point I wish to clarify with you. When you
10 said -- you said that you answered to Colonel Beara by saying that the
11 order was not such, and you did not wish to participate in something like
12 that, and that's at line 23 and 24. Now, whose order was this, the one
13 that you didn't want to participate to?
14 A. It was the order from General Mladic. I did not wish to take
15 part in the implementation of such an order.
16 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, sir.
17 Your Honours, that concludes the examination-in-chief.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 Mr. Lukic.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic :
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Vasic. I'm attorney
22 Novak Lukic, and I am now I'm going to put some questions to you on
23 behalf of the Defence and Mr. Perisic. Before I begin, I am going to ask
24 you to keep in mind that the two of us speak the same language, and we
25 understand each other. And in order not to create problems for
1 interpretations which I create frequently, for you to wait a little bit
2 after my question before you put your answer, and I'm also going to wait
3 a little bit after you answer before I start with my next question.
4 First of all, I would like to clarify here. I have what I
5 received here regarding your statements to date. You now, as far as I
6 know, as far as I'm informed, are testifying before this Hague Tribunal
7 in the capacity of a witness for the first time; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I have information that to date, you spoke with representatives
10 of The Hague Tribunal for a total of six times from the period of 2000
11 until 2003. Is this more or less correct?
12 A. More or less, yes.
13 Q. So the most recent interview with representatives of The Hague
14 Tribunal was held in June 2003 here at the Hague Tribunal; do you recall
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. You also had proofing for this testimony of yours. I received
18 notes about that, and I'm exclusively asking you about these so-called
20 I also have a record of your interrogation at the public security
21 centre in Bijeljina in August 2003 in the capacity of a witness; do you
22 recall that?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Then you had an interview on the 19th of September, 2005, as a
25 suspect in proceedings before I assumed the Court for war crimes of the
1 court in Bosnia-Herzegovina. You were interviewed by Prosecutor
2 Ibro Bulic; do you recall that?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. And you were also interviewed in the capacity of a witness in
5 proceedings before the court in Bosnia and Herzegovina versus
6 Petar Mitrovic et al. This was in January 2007; do you recall that?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. Did you provide any other statements perhaps, or is this all?
9 A. On the 9th of April of this year, I also testified before the
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina court in the case of Tomic and Vukovic.
11 Q. What is this case about?
12 A. It's about Kravica, also July 1995.
13 Q. So it relates to the events in Srebrenica?
14 A. Yes, that is correct.
15 Q. When was this?
16 A. On the 9th of April of this year, 2009.
17 Q. Is that all?
18 A. I also testified -- well, this has to do with Srebrenica.
19 Q. Did you provide any other statements regarding Srebrenica?
20 A. As far as I know, no.
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. In other cases that have nothing to do with Srebrenica, do you
24 recall giving statements or testifying, and if so, when was this?
25 A. Except for Srebrenica, I provided statements in relation to the
1 events in Zvornik in 1992. This was on four occasions. The first time
2 was, I think, in 2002 to Hague investigators; then to the cantonal
3 Prosecutor's Office from Tuzla
5 and the fourth time I testified on the 5th of February of this year in
7 relate to events from 1992.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that I have a
9 problem that, first of all, has do with the statement from April 2009,
10 which if it has to do with the same events, the Prosecutor should have
11 provided it to us. I don't know if they have it. But this would be then
12 in accordance with Rule 66, and I assume that any statement relating to
13 this witness could be useful regardless in which way. It should have
14 been furnished to us by the Prosecution, I don't know. If the Prosecutor
15 -- I don't have information if we ever received these statements.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know whether the Prosecution has this.
17 When I read the transcript it looks like this is a statement -- it's
18 testimony on the 9th of April this year in Bosnia-Herzegovina, not here.
19 I don't know whether this Prosecution has it, the transcript.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Because I received his testimony from
21 the Prosecutor before the court in Bosnia and Herzegovina about these
22 events from 2007 when I was receiving witness statements from other cases
23 conducted before domestic courts that touched upon cases that are also
24 being tried before this Tribunal, I received that statement too.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you saying that the witness made a statement
1 on the 9th of April, 2009? Or which statement is this that you are
2 saying you don't have? And on the same.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] His testimony -- his testimony before
4 the court in Bosnia-Herzegovina from April of 2009 regarding events, as
5 he said now, in Kravica. I don't have that record. I have the record
6 from 2007, however, where he also testified evidently before that
7 Tribunal relating to the events in Srebrenica.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, what is your problem? Your problem is you
9 don't have that statement. I don't know whether your colleague has it.
10 It was not in this court.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Exactly. It's not before this Court,
12 but I assume that the Prosecutor was obliged to provide us what that
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would he know about it?
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata, are you able it to answer to these
17 questions, I don't know whether you do know or don't know what happens in
18 other courts.
19 MR. CANNATA: Certainly, Your Honour. The Prosecution has no
20 possession of these transcripts, otherwise we would have disclosed them
21 as we did with the remaining and the other proceedings concerning this
22 witness. So I haven't seen these transcript as well, so we don't have it
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: There you go, Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the Prosecutor pursuant
1 to Rule 66 and 68 is obliged to provide us with all statements of a
2 specific witness when he comes to testify. I cannot now accept
3 circumstances that if the Prosecution has no knowledge about that and the
4 witness did give --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: In a long time I haven't read both Rule 66 and
6 Rule 68, but I want to believe that the Prosecution can only give that
7 which he has possession of. If he doesn't have it, he doesn't have it.
8 And if he doesn't know anything about it, he doesn't know anything about
10 Now, let me read you, sir, if you will, Rule 66(a)(ii) says:
11 "Subject to the provisions of Rule 53 and 69, the Prosecutor
12 shall make available to the Defence in the language which the accused
13 understands, 2, within the time-limit prescribed by the Trial Chamber or
14 by the pre-trial judge appointed pursuant to Rule 65 ter copies of the
15 statement of all witnesses whom the Prosecutor intends to call to testify
16 at trial and copies of all transcripts and written statements taken in
17 accordance with Rule 92 bis, Rule 92 ter, and Rule 92. Copies of
18 statements of additional Prosecution witnesses shall be made available to
19 the Defence when the decision is made to call those witnesses."
20 Now, I don't know whether the Prosecution is expected to find all
21 statement that is this witness has made to all courts in the world. He
22 says he doesn't know anything about it. How can he avail to you if he
23 doesn't have it?
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that actually
25 it is in accordance with any bona fide action, that if somebody is
1 bringing a witness to testify together with the witness, that party needs
2 to find out whether he testified previously and where. And this is part
3 of the practice of this court and other courts. And usually during
4 proofing it is customary to ask the witness if he testified and where he
6 I understand if we are talking about a traffic or a car accident;
7 that's understandable. But if you are preparing a witness to testify in
8 a trial such as this, I mean, I don't know how I can find out about
9 something like this.
10 I understand, Your Honours, that what this witness testified
11 about based on what I saw in the records, the witness testified about
12 facts which were also the topic of the interview by the investigators of
13 the Prosecutor's Office. So it's perhaps natural if they spoke with the
14 witness on six occasions that they would also know and find out from the
15 witness if he testified in other cases as well.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: When was the last they spoke to him, before
17 proofing him for testimony today?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In 2003 is the interview that I have.
19 In 2003.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And then the witness testified this year, last
21 month, in Bosnia-Herzegovina. How would they know if they interviewed
22 him in 2003 that he was going to testify on the 9th of April, 2009
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I assume they could have asked him
24 when they got in touch with him, when they brought him here to testify.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, Mr. Cannata, did you ask him whether he
1 testified on the 9th of April?
2 MR. CANNATA: No, I did not, sir.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: If they had reason to ask, they would ask. If
4 they don't have reason to ask, they don't ask. And if he doesn't
5 volunteer, he doesn't volunteer. The fact of the matter is from what I
6 hear from Mr. Cannata, he is as ignorant about this testimony as you are.
7 So he is not using that testimony in this case. If you want to use, it's
8 up to you if you want to use it.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I could use it. I don't have
10 those records.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Neither does the Prosecution. My problem is how
12 do you expect the Prosecution to give you that which they don't have?
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the Prosecution, with
14 all due diligence should always establish before the arrival of a witness
15 if that witness can provide something more. That is how I understand
16 that the parties to the proceedings should act.
17 I will continue, Your Honours, I have just found out from the
18 Prosecution that they don't have this statement, and I acknowledge that.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Let's clarify these things, Mr. Vasic. I think this was not
22 heard before the Tribunal, but I have that from your previous statements,
23 the transcript is clear here and your position. Since when did you --
24 when did you begin to perform the duty of the chief of the public
25 security centre?
1 A. I received the decision by the Minister of the Internal Affairs
2 as chief of the station on the 27th of April, 1994, and I performed those
3 duties until the 11th of March, 1998.
4 Q. At that post?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You said earlier in answering Mr. Cannata which municipality your
7 centre covered, so as I understood -- how many Public Security Centres
8 were there in Republika Srpska at the time?
9 A. Nine.
10 Q. Your centre was centre number 5?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. As part of these municipalities covered by your centre, there was
13 a difference between a police station and a Public Security Station, what
14 was this difference?
15 A. The difference was in that the police stations were run by a
16 person who was a police station commander, and they were usually
17 established in small places like Osmaci and Skelani; whereas other
18 municipalities had Public Security Stations led by the head of the Public
19 Security Station. In addition to him, this station had also commander of
20 the station.
21 Q. Who was your superior in the MUP, your immediate superior?
22 A. According to the functional line, the head of the public security
23 department was the next according to the rank. At the time that was
24 Milan Kokarasik [phoen]. Besides him -- or next to him was the minister
25 of the interior.
1 Q. That was Tomislav Kovac at the time; right?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. During your day-to-day work to whom did you submit reports?
4 A. In the course of my day-to-day duties, the reports were for the
5 most part addressed to the public security department and the office of
6 the minister. The situation was such that because due to the war, the
7 cabinet of the minister was very often in Pale, and the ministry of
8 public security were in Bijeljina, and therefore, we had to send reports
9 to both entities.
10 Q. Can you tell us, now you explained to a Prosecutor a little, but
11 you needn't go into too many details. Can you explain how come that you
12 happen to be in Bratunac and Srebrenica on the 12th of July?
13 A. Pursuant to Mr. Kovac's order the minister of the interior,
14 number 40755, dated 12 July, I was given a task to form a Public Security
15 Station in Srebrenica for the purpose of providing protection of the
16 property of enterprises. Acting according to this order, I went to
18 Q. You had known Mr. Miroslav Deronjic from before, or had you only
19 heard of him?
20 A. I met Mr. Deronjic after the security centre had been formed,
21 which would be sometime in May 1994 because that was my first visit to
22 Bratunac because Bratunac was under this centre. I went there to consult
23 with the local authorities relating to the election of a managerial post,
24 and that was the first time that I met Mr. Deronjic.
25 Q. Were you aware that he was a well-established person within the
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 Q. Were you aware at the time, that is to say on the 12th of July
4 when you arrived in Bratunac and Srebrenica, that he had been appointed
5 civilian commissioner for Srebrenica by Mr. Karadzic?
6 A. In one item of that dispatch, it was written that I should
7 establish cooperation with Mr. Deronjic, and upon my arrival in the
8 field, I was informed that he had been appointed civilian commissioner.
9 Q. As mentioned in your interviews, you were also present at the
10 meeting in the Fontana
11 please explain how it came about for you to be in that meeting, and who
12 else was there.
13 A. The head of the station Josipovic had received an invitation to
14 attend the meeting, and as the highest superior officer after him, I
15 joined him and went to that meeting. The meeting had been set up,
16 although I learned that later, so the meeting had been set up on the
17 evening of the 11th with representatives of the Dutch UNPROFOR and with
18 the civilian delegation of the Srebrenica Muslims. Also present at that
19 meeting were the military leadership of VRS, that is to say,
20 General Mladic and General Krstic. Representatives of the civilian
21 authority or the civilian leadership were Mr. Miroslav Deronjic and
22 Ljubo Simic, and also there was a three-member delegation of the civilian
23 population of Srebrenica, and finally there were representatives of the
25 Q. With regard to Mr. Deronjic and this meeting, did you conclude
1 that he was acquainted with these Muslim representatives who attended the
3 A. Judging by the way how he talked with the lady who was sitting
4 opposite him, I concluded that they had known each other from before.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us just look at one portion of
6 your statement. Can we please see 1D0207 on the screens. Page 12 in
7 English and 11 in B/C/S.
8 Q. I suppose that you had an opportunity to review your previous
9 statements during proofing, and I also assume that you had no objections
10 to your statements, otherwise we would have heard from the OTP.
11 I'm going to read quite a short portion. This is a your
12 interview given on the 9th of July, 2000. I'm going to read the central
13 part of your description of this meeting where you say the following:
14 "... so the active part of that meeting took Miroslav, and I
15 noticed that he addressed very correctly towards Muslim representatives
16 and I realised, noticed that they knew each other from before the
17 conversation they had."
18 Do you remember stating this?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which line is this?
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll tell you immediately.
22 That's line 12 in the English. [In English] No, no, sorry, sorry, sorry.
23 [Interpretation] I think that this is a wrong page in English. The B/C/S
24 page is correct, but I may have given you a wrong page in English. It
25 could be the previous one.
1 Q. "And General Mladic and this Dutch colonel took part in that."
2 What I would like to highlight from this meeting was that Mladic
3 wanted to know where the army was; he wanted the army to surrender their
4 weapons, while Miroslav was addressing mainly the civilian requests, that
5 is to say, the women and children assembled in Potocari to state their
6 wishes and to say whether they wanted to stay where they were or whether
7 they wanted to be evacuated.
8 Do you remember these words uttered by Deronjic? Was there any
9 mention in his conversation with the representatives of the civilians
10 that he made an offer for them to stay or go, according to their wishes?
11 A. I remember that part of the conversation, and that is how it
12 exactly went. He said that he had been authorised to offer them these
13 two options, to stay or to go.
14 Q. Very well. Now, let's move to another topic for awhile. You
15 said that you spent most of the day on the 13th in Srebrenica. This is
16 what I deduced from your previous testimony; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On that day, the 13th, where were you in Srebrenica? Were you in
19 town or which locations?
20 A. We went around the town and we spent most of the time in the
21 building that before the war was the headquarters of the public security
23 Q. On that day, did you see any traces of any crimes, killings
24 committed in Srebrenica, or any other crime for that matter?
25 A. While walking around the town in the vicinity of the demolished
1 mosque, the only thing that we noticed --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The Interpreter's note: We didn't hear what
3 the witness saw. Can he please repeat.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness is requested to repeat himself, the
5 interpreters didn't hear what he was saying.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While walking around the town in
7 the vicinity of a demolished mosque in the town, we saw a dead body of a
8 woman. Apart from that, we didn't see any other victims or casualties in
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. On that day did you hear any stories in Srebrenica about any
13 A. No, I didn't.
14 MR. LUKIC: I would now like to move to an entirely new topic, so
15 therefore with your leave, I would suggest that we take a break now so
16 that can start this new topic after the break.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very well then. We'll take a break and come back
18 at 4.00. Adjourned.
19 --- Recess taken at 3.28 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Q. Just a few short questions relating to these meetings on the 13th
24 and the 14th. When you arrived at Deronjic's office, and I'm talking
25 about the meeting that took place around midnight, these two gentlemen
1 were already there in Deronjic's office; is that right?
2 A. [No interpretation]
3 Q. Before you enter Deronjic's office, there's another office, do
4 you remember that?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, the witness answered your previous
6 question, but the interpreters probably didn't hear it. Could you --
7 could the witness please answer that question first.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Sir, can you please wait awhile before you give your answer. I'm
10 going to ask you again. When you arrived late on the 13th on Deronjic's
11 office, when you arrived again around midnight, you saw Deronjic and
12 Beara there, they had already been there; is that correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Only these two men were in the office at that moment; is that
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Do you recall since you went there several times that the --
18 before that office there is another office that leads to Deronjic's
20 A. I don't remember that honestly.
21 Q. Very well. Do you remember that on that night when you arrived,
22 do you remember seeing Momir Nikolic there?
23 A. I'm certain that Momir Nikolic was not there.
24 Q. This is what I found in your statements, only I wanted that to be
25 confirmed. By the way, you did know him at the time?
1 A. No, I didn't know him, nor have I met him at any point in July
3 Q. But when you say that you were so sure that he was not there, you
4 knew how he looked like, that's why you are saying that?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were there more than two people in this office
7 when you got there? Was it more than Deronjic and Beara only? Was there
8 any other person?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only saw Deronjic and Beara at
10 that time. I don't remember, or rather, I don't know if there had been
11 anyone there before I arrived.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you got there, how many people did you find
13 in the office?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat, I found only Deronjic and
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You have just described to us your conversation with Beara that
18 took place on the morning of the 14th when he asked for the men, and you
19 told us what reply you gave to him. Later on when you met Minister
20 Kovac, did you relate your conversation with Beara, and we know that
21 Minister Kovac came to Bratunac that morning; is that right?
22 A. Immediately after the minister's arrival, Minister Kovac's
23 arrival, I informed him about my meeting and the content of the
24 conversation and the content actually of what I heard from Beara.
25 Q. Did he react at all?
1 A. The minister said that the military prisoners were under the
2 jurisdiction of the army, that that was not our job, and that we
3 shouldn't interfere with these matters.
4 Q. Do you know that in 1996 President Karadzic ordered an
5 investigation to be conducted relating to all the circumstances
6 concerning the events in Srebrenica?
7 A. I know that a sort of commission was involved in that and that I
8 think that one -- a member of that commission was from the Ministry of
10 Q. As far as I know, this is what was said publicly by Mr. Karadzic,
11 that is that he wanted all the circumstances surrounding Srebrenica to be
12 investigated; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. From your superiors in the MUP, you received no task concerning
15 the investigation, the facts relating to Srebrenica throughout the period
16 that you occupied that post?
17 A. No, I didn't.
18 Q. You were also never contacted with regard to the work of that
19 commission in terms of asking you to make any statements or do any -- or
20 make any other contributions?
21 A. No.
22 Q. After these few days that you spent in Bratunac and Srebrenica,
23 you went back to Zvornik, and until 1998 you occupied the post of the
24 head of the Zvornik public security centre; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And all these police stations in Srebrenica, Bratunac, and others
2 that you had mentioned remained under your jurisdiction; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. During the whole period while you held this office, did you
5 receive from your superior any task to carry out any investigation
6 regarding Srebrenica until the end of your office term?
7 A. I didn't receive any task of that nature.
8 Q. These police stations that existed in the territory covered by
9 your centre, had each a separate crime investigation service whose duty
10 and responsibility was to investigate criminal offences; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, there were services within each station, public security
12 station, that were involved in detecting, so to speak, regular crime,
13 white-collar crime, public disorder, et cetera.
14 Q. Very well. I think that the same question was put to you in an
15 interview, and if necessary we can call up this particular page. But
16 tell me this: Did you hear anything about reburial from primary graves
17 in the autumn of 1995? Tell me first, did you receive any official
18 contact with that regard or not?
19 A. Nobody has ever sent any request to me concerning this issue, and
20 I was not involved in that, and I claim that with full responsibility.
21 Q. At the time when this was going on, you knew nothing about that?
22 A. No, I didn't.
23 Q. I'm going to put a couple of questions now that are not directly
24 related to what you testified about, but which are of interest to me in
25 my Defence in view of the post that you were performing.
1 We heard from you that from 1994, is that correct, you were the
2 chief of the public security centre in Zvornik; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, from the 27th of April.
4 Q. And there was a border crossing in Zvornik, it was a bridge
5 dividing or separating the Republika Srpska from the Federal Republic
7 A. Yes. And it's still that way today.
8 Q. And on one side it's Zvornik, and then on the Serbian side there
9 is Mali Zvornik, and you had the police and the border services there at
10 the border crossing; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, they were then, and they are there now.
12 Q. You are probably aware that the leadership of the Federal
13 Republic of Yugoslavia
14 Republika Srpska.
15 A. Yes, I am aware of that.
16 Q. And I assume that you are aware that the sanctions caused quite a
17 lot of dissatisfaction in Republika Srpska among the political
18 leadership, as well as among the population; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And on the Republika Srpska side of the border crossing, were
21 there any observers of the international community there when the
22 crossing was set up?
23 A. I think that there were. I really cannot say which period this
24 was in, but I think that after the border crossing was established, there
25 were foreign observers there, yes.
1 Q. I assume that as chief of the public security centre you received
2 regular daily information in that period after the sanctions were
3 imposed, and these were reports from, let's say, subordinate police
4 units, and the border crossings?
5 A. Yes, there were reports about events that had happened the
6 previous three or four hours.
7 Q. Did you receive any information in that period that the Army of
9 of the embargo introduced by the FRY towards [Realtime transcript read in
10 error "by the"] Republika Srpska?
11 A. I didn't have information like that. I never heard of anything
12 like that.
13 Q. Did you get any information that representatives of international
14 institutions --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: This last question that you asked, I'm not quite
16 sure if you look at page 31, line 11, it ends off introduced by the FRY
17 by the Republika Srpska, I'm not sure which is which between the FRY and
18 the Republika Srpska.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no, I think that it's probably
20 wrong. The embargo imposed by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia towards
21 Republika Srpska in 1994. I think that the witness and I understood each
22 other, so.
23 Q. Do you recall if you received any information that international
24 observers had any complaints or objections in terms of this embargo?
25 A. No, I never received information of that sort.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much,
2 I've completed by cross-examination of this witness.
3 Sir, thank you very much.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
5 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honours. I have a minor point at
6 page 20, line 4, of today's transcript.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Cannata:
8 Q. Sir, you have been asked at line 20 by my learned friend that:
9 "When did you begin to perform the duty of the chief of the
10 public security centre?"
11 And your answer was at line 3:
12 "I received the decision by the ministry -- the Minister of
13 Internal Affairs as of the chief of the station on the 27th of April
15 Do I have to understand that you meant the chief of the centre?
16 A. A decision on the appointment to the post of chief of the centre
17 was issued by the Minister of Internal Affairs, because he was the only
18 one authorised to sign such decisions.
19 Q. So what post did you -- were you assigned to with the decision on
20 the minister of interior on the 27 of April, 1994, for clarity of the
22 A. It's the post of the chief of the public security centre in
24 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, sir.
25 I don't have any more questions, Your Honour. Thank you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I would like to ask one or two
4 questions, Witness.
5 According to your testimony on the 13th of July in the evening,
6 you found out when you met Beara that he intended to kill all the
7 prisoners according to the order received by Mladic; is that right?
8 A. That's correct.
9 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] When you found out about it, who
10 were you with? Were you with Deronjic?
11 A. Mr. Beara and I were in the room, but after Mr. Deronjic
12 returned, the conversation continued along those lines.
13 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] The conversation that Mr. Deronjic
14 had with Karadzic, was that before or after?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The conversation that Deronjic had
16 with President Karadzic was done before. I don't know exactly when the
17 conversation took place, but I know that the conversation took place
19 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And according to your memory, and
20 if you don't remember tell us, do you know if Deronjic talked to Karadzic
21 to tell him that Mladic intended to kill all the prisoners?
22 A. Deronjic called President Karadzic to inform him about a large
23 number of prisoners that were brought to Bratunac, and to ask him for
24 instructions about that. I don't have information that he talked about
25 what you are asking me about.
1 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, but according to you, did
2 Deronjic already know when he came to talk to you after Beara told him
3 what Mladic's orders were?
4 A. Deronjic knew that.
5 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well. I have another
6 question, and please tell me if you do not know the answer, please tell
8 This order that Mladic took to kill all the prisoners was not a
9 very confidential thing. It was not a strictly confidential decision
10 because you were told, Deronjic was told about it, and you, yourself,
11 were not even in the army.
12 A. I cannot comment on whether it was confidential, of a
13 confidential nature, and when General Mladic said this to Beara, all I'm
14 conveying is -- and that I know is correct is that I heard from Beara.
15 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] But Beara didn't tell everyone
16 obviously, but he was informing other people as well, not only the
17 members of his army, the military men of his army. Very well. Thank you
18 very much. That's all I wanted to know.
19 JUDGE DAVID: At page 27 of the transcript, when responding to
20 questions by Mr. Lukic of the Defence, he asked you:
21 "You have just described to us your conversation with Beara that
22 took place on the morning of the 14th when he asked for the men and told
23 us what reply you gave to him. Later on when you met Minister Kovac, did
24 you relate your conversation with Beara, and we know that Minister Kovac
25 came to Bratunac that morning; is that right?"
1 My question is, did you refer to Minister Kovac all the details
2 and the content of your conversation with Beara in an explicit manner?
3 A. Yes, I did precisely, the complete conversation. In the evening,
4 and in the -- in the morning and in the evening I conveyed to
5 Minister Kovac.
6 JUDGE DAVID: Second question, Mr. Lukic asked you at page 28,
7 line 2:
8 "Did he react at all?"
9 And your answer was:
10 "The minister said that the military prisoners were under the
11 jurisdiction of the army, that that was not our job, and that we should
12 not interfere with these matters."
13 When you said that he told you not to interfere with these
14 matters, what you understood at the time, could you elaborate on this,
15 was not your job, that you should not interfere with these matters?
16 A. I understood that what the minister wanted to say was that the
17 military prisoners were under the jurisdiction of the military and not
18 under the jurisdiction of the police. I can also add that it was his
19 opinion that because of tense relations between himself and Mr. Mladic,
20 and between the army and the police, it was important for us that we were
21 not authorised, or that the prisoners were not under our jurisdiction,
22 and that it was not really our concern what was going on, and not to
24 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you very much. No questions.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.
1 Just to follow up on the question by the Judge, am I right, did
2 the military have their own police, what are called military police?
3 A. The Army of Republika Srpska did have military police within all
4 of its units at the level of battalions and the level of corps and
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you. You said at page 24, lines 22
7 to 24, you said:
8 "We went around --" or let me just -- the question put to you
10 "On that day, the 13th, where you were in Srebrenica, were you in
11 town or which locations?"
12 And you said:
13 "We went around the town, and we spent most of the time in the
14 building that before the war was the headquarters of the public security
16 Do you remember that answer?
17 A. Yes, correct.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just clear me in case I didn't hear you well.
19 Earlier today when you were asked by Mr. Cannata, I thought you had said
20 that the public security station in Srebrenica was established around or
21 just after the 12th or 13th of July? Didn't you say so?
22 A. Precisely. The station was informed on the 12th of July, 1995
23 That day, management team was allocated and a group of policemen were
24 assigned who were from that area to be part of that station.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. So the station was established after the
1 12th of July?
2 A. That's correct.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: What I don't understand is how do you then say
4 that on the 13th you were in a building that used to be the headquarters
5 of the public security station before the war if there hadn't been a
6 public security station before the war? How could there be a
7 headquarters building?
8 A. Before the war, the police station was located in that building.
9 Srebrenica had its own police station. The police station is still
10 located in the same place now.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then there's something I don't understand. If
12 there was a police station in Srebrenica before the war, why do you have
13 a establish a police station on instructions that you receive on the 12th
14 of July, 1995? Are you duplicating police stations, or am I missing
16 A. Before the war, the police station operated in Srebrenica, and it
17 was a multi-ethnic one. During the war there was a station that mainly
18 comprised the Muslim population, because the Serbs had been expelled.
19 After the departure of all Bosniak Muslims from Srebrenica, the station
20 was left empty, and I was given the assignment, because this was now the
21 territory under the control of the centre to form practically a new
22 public security station there.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: By the 2th of July the Muslims had departed from
24 Srebrenica, is that your testimony?
25 A. The civilian population was still in Potocari, but the evacuation
1 was underway. In the town itself there was no one. There were no
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Hence the instruction that you establish a police
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. At page 20, lines 14 to 22,
7 you were asked a question at line 14:
8 "As part of these municipalities covered by your centre, there
9 was a difference between a police station and a public security station.
10 What was this difference?"
11 And you said:
12 "The difference was in that the police stations were run by a
13 person who was a police station commander, and they were usually
14 established in small places like Osmaci and Skelani; whereas other
15 municipalities at public security stations led by the head of the public
16 security station, in addition to him, this station had also commander of
17 the station."
18 I still don't understand the difference between these two. Did
19 these two, a police station and a public security station, perform the
20 same functions, or is there a difference in the functions they performed,
21 or in the department under which they fall?
22 A. These are stations that perform the same work, but because of a
23 larger population and more problems, in larger cities additional
24 functions were introduced for the chief of the station who is the head of
25 the commander of the police station, the head of the criminal
1 investigations unit, the communications units, and the legal
2 administrative department. So it's just another person in comparison to
3 police stations where the volume of work is smaller and where the
4 komandir is the one who actually leads or is at the head of the service.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would I be right to say what you are saying is a
6 public security station is much bigger than a police station and has got
7 greater responsibility?
8 A. Yes, yes, you could say that.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the head of the public security station is
10 somebody who is called head of the public security station who is above a
11 commander, and the commander is the head of the police station; is that
13 A. Precisely.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
15 Any questions, Mr. Cannata?
16 MR. CANNATA: Yes, Your Honour. Just for the record the last
17 question asked by her honour Judge Picard was, indeed, answered by the
18 witness but not recorded on the transcript. And, actually, it's at page
19 34, line 16. Actually, line 15.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't see a question in that statement by the
21 Judge. The Judge seems to be commenting, and she is not putting a
22 question to the witness.
23 MR. CANNATA: I take the point. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, also no question but small intervention
1 for transcript. Page 37, line 21, you posed the question by the 12th of
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 37, line?
4 MR. LUKIC: Line 21. The transcript says 2nd. 12th, 12th.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
6 MR. LUKIC: 12, yes, 12.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that all?
8 Thank you so much.
9 Sir, that brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank you so
10 much for coming to testify at the Tribunal. You are now excused. You
11 say stand down, and please travel well back home.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata?
15 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
16 MR. SAXON: If I may, Your Honour, I note the time. The next
17 witness, Mr. Butler, scheduled to begin tomorrow, he is presently in the
18 middle of a meeting with Mr. Harmon. Would it be possible to adjourn
19 until tomorrow at 2.15 to start his evidence?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It will indeed be possible, sir, if you so ask.
21 MR. SAXON: Yes, sir.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. We then stand adjourned to
23 tomorrow, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, in courtroom II. Court
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.38 p.m.
1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of May, 2009, at
2 2.15 p.m.