1 Wednesday, 27 May 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
10 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
11 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Could we have appearances for today, starting with the
14 Prosecution, please.
15 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
16 everyone. Mark Harmon and Carmela Javier appearing for the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon. And for the
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, good afternoon to everyone, Daniela Tasic,
20 Chad Mair, Milos Androvic, Eric Tully, Tina Drolec, Novak Lukic, and I'm
21 Gregor Guy-Smith, appearing on behalf of Mr. Perisic.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith. If the record
23 may show that we're still sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis in the absence
24 of Judge David for the same reasons as yesterday.
25 Mr. Harmon.
1 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. Before I begin the examination of
2 Mr. Butler, a point came up yesterday in respect of helicopter flights.
3 That issue has never been part of our case, but it has become an issue
4 apparently in this case, and so I have and will be disclosing to the
5 Defence today a number of reports relating to that subject area, and I
6 will present to Your Honours evidence relating to that as well.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Harmon. And if you don't mind, may
8 I interrupt you. There's something I forgot to say.
9 MR. HARMON: Yes, sir.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, Mr. Butler. I have to remind you,
11 sir, that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the
12 beginning of your testimony to tell the truth.
13 THE WITNESS: I understand, sir.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: And nothing else but the truth.
15 WITNESS: RICHARD BUTLER [Resumed]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
18 Examination by Mr. Harmon: [Continued]
19 Q. Mr. Butler, yesterday in the course of these proceedings we saw a
20 film-clip with General Krstic in Potocari with buses and trucks operating
21 behind him. In chapter 5 of Prosecution Exhibit 2246, you deal with the
22 subject of movement of Muslims from the former Srebrenica enclave, and in
23 particular, Mr. Butler, in chapter -- in paragraph 5.6, you say:
24 "Further on, 12 July 1995
25 organising and directing the transportation of the Muslim civilian
2 What I'd like to do, Mr. Butler, is I'd like to show you a number
3 of documents, and I would like you -- like to invite your comments on
4 them. If we could have, first of all, 65 ter 2591.02 on the screen.
5 First of all let me identify the document, Mr. Butler. It's in
6 small print in front of you on the monitor. This is a document, and that
7 is dated the 12th of July, 1995. It is a regular combat report from the
8 command of the 1st Zvornik Brigade, and it is addressed to the command of
9 the Drina
10 English and the B/C/S. We can see that the author of this document is
11 Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko Pandurevic who we have seen earlier in film
12 footage in yesterday's evidence.
13 What I'd like to do, Mr. Butler, is direct your attention -- if
14 we could go back to the first page. I would like to direct your
15 attention to paragraph 2. That portion in the middle of the paragraph, a
16 little bit below the middle of the paragraph that says:
17 "We sent to Bratunac pursuant to your order eight buses from
18 Drinatrans, two buses from our VP, and four of our trucks."
19 First of all, this reference is pursuant to "your order." Whose
20 order is being referred to by Colonel Pandurevic?
21 A. Well, sir, in this context, the order that they're referring to,
22 "your order," would be their higher command, the headquarters of the
24 Q. And how does -- based on your analysis of the documents and the
25 evidence, how does this paragraph that I have just -- a portion of this
1 paragraph that I've read to you relate to the movement of the population
2 from Potocari?
3 A. Well, sir, if you go back and following the context of the second
4 meeting at the Hotel Fontana, following that second meeting and then
5 through the evening there are a series of orders that are published by
6 both the Republika Srpska Ministry of Defence and also the military
7 commands to include the Drina Corps out to various military units, out to
8 various civilian governmental-owned enterprises to start assembling buses
9 and have them go to Bratunac.
10 In this particular case, what you have is the Zvornik Brigade
11 command responding back that pursuant to the Drina Corps order to send
12 vehicles down to Bratunac that they have complied with that.
13 Q. Okay. Could we focus on the next sentence which reads:
14 "One military police detachment was sent to Konjevic Polje
15 pursuant to your order."
16 Now, Mr. Butler -- first of all, what does this sentence mean in
17 light of the documents that you have read and reviewed?
18 A. They had requested, they being the Drina Corps, had requested
19 that a military police patrol go to the Konjevic Polje intersection where
20 they would participate in traffic control knowing that that was going to
21 be the route that the buses were going to be going down.
22 Q. And the route that buses were going to be going down, tell me
23 where the buses were going and would they be going through this
24 particular town, Konjevic Polje?
25 A. Yes, sir. The buses for the women and the children originated in
1 Potocari, went through Bratunac, then along the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje
2 road, at the intersection of Konjevic Polje, they turned towards the
3 westerly direction through Milici, Vlasenica, up into a town known as
4 Tisca. And at that point the buses stopped. The individuals disembarked
5 the buses and then walked through a tunnel, that tunnel being an area
6 connecting the territory under the control of the Republika Srpska and
7 the territory under the control of the, at that time, the Bosnian
9 Q. All right.
10 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could this be given an exhibit number.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2394.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
15 MR. HARMON: Could we have next on the monitor Prosecution
16 Exhibit 280. For reference, this also is found in the same report at
17 footnote 245.
18 Q. Mr. Butler, this is an intercepted conversation at 915 hours.
19 Can you date this intercept?
20 A. Yes, sir, I believe that the investigation and the individuals
21 who created this date it as 12 July 1995
22 Q. And can you identify who Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic is and
23 what his position was?
24 A. Yes, sir. Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic was the chief of
25 transportation services for the command of the Drina Corps on -- in July
1 of 1995.
2 Q. Now, can you just comment on this intercept?
3 A. Again, it's a summary of an actual conversation, and they're
4 discussing the fact that -- one of the correspondents is replying that
5 without the proper authorisation, one, they only have two buses, and two,
6 that they can't move them without the proper authorisation that has to be
7 written. And the third problem that you see discussed here is the lack
8 of fuel, both within the Republika Srpska and in other areas. So one of
9 the critical issues that this entire movement of the civilian population
10 were going to hinge on was getting the available fuel for the vehicles
11 that needed to do this.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I might just ask, is the typewritten portion
13 that's in English a complete summary of that whole page that's
15 MR. HARMON: Are you asking me, Your Honour? Or, Mr. Butler,
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking Mr. Butler.
18 THE WITNESS: No, sir, it is not. The conversation that you see
19 in B/C/S below that is a different conversation.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And from the page in B/C/S, what is the English
21 version a summary of? Is it the summary of the first paragraph, middle
22 paragraph, or --
23 THE WITNESS: I believe it's the summary of the middle paragraph,
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: I note the name Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic in
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly push his microphones
4 apart. Thank you.
5 MR. HARMON: Could we have Prosecution Exhibit 261 on the
6 monitor, please.
7 Q. Mr. Butler, this is a conversation between two participants
8 unidentified, X and Y. First of all, can you date this intercept?
9 A. Yes, sir. I believe this intercept has been dated 12 July 1995,
11 Q. And can you comment on this intercept and what relationship this
12 intercept had with the movement of the civilian population from
14 A. The first component of the intercept gives a rundown of where
15 vehicles are being collected from and coming from. The next portion of
16 that talks about where they still believe vehicles will be in-bound from.
17 They're talking about the empty tanker truck coming in as well as a
18 request for fuel has been forwarded to Krstic, and that so far over
19 50 buses have been obtained.
20 Q. All right. Could we turn to the next exhibit, which is --
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I'm may, I'm not understanding the correlation
22 between the English translation and that which is on the screen in B/C/S
23 to be perfectly honest with you. It seems to be a great deal more
24 information and different kind of information.
25 MR. HARMON: Well, Your Honour, I can direct counsel and
1 Your Honours. It's the middle conversation. There is a series of
2 numbers on the left-hand side that say 2535. So for counsel's benefit
3 and Your Honours' benefit, this longer document in B/C/S on the right
4 contains other conversations or portions of other conversations. And the
5 conversation that is P261 is the portion of the conversation in the
6 middle that starts at 785.00 megahertz and ends with, at the lower
7 right-hand side, the initials FAFA.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you so much, and I would appreciate it to
9 the extent that there should be a one-to-one correlation between the
10 English and the B/C/S. If we could have that remedied at some point in
12 MR. HARMON: Fine.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess that goes for the previous exhibit as
14 well, Mr. Harmon?
15 MR. HARMON: We'll take care of that, Your Honour. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. HARMON: Could I have -- could I have the next exhibit which
18 is Prosecution Exhibit 260 on the screen. This is also referred to in
19 footnote 245.
20 And for the benefit of counsel and the Court, the very short
21 intercept in English on the left is -- the intercept again that starts on
22 the fourth line down 785.000 and ends -- it's three lines long. And we
23 will, obviously, address the concerns of the Court and counsel in respect
24 of isolating that intercept from the remainder of the page.
25 Q. Mr. Butler, first of all, please examine the intercept that I'm
1 referring to. It's in English. And can you inform us, first of all, of
2 the date of this intercept?
3 A. Yes, sir. This intercept has been dated 12 July 1995.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, if I might ask, how do you determine that,
5 Mr. Butler?
6 THE WITNESS: Sir, the -- as a component of previous trials, many
7 of the intercept operators who have taken these has -- have testified
8 behind them, as well as the Office of the Prosecutor has engaged in a
9 rather exhaustive effort with all of these intercepts to both
10 authenticate them and date them where they fall in context of other
11 things. For example, if you look at the right-hand document, that's part
12 of a larger book. And when you look at that larger book in total, you'll
13 find there will be notations to the days that they're doing it. They
14 will only date it once and then put the time hatch down on subsequent
15 conversations. So because of that prior analytical work that was done by
16 the Office of the Prosecutor that is how I can date this to 12 July 1995.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: That leaves me with some cold comfort,
18 Your Honour, in terms of the kinds of evidence that's being presented to
19 this Chamber at this time. It seems to me there should be some
20 correlation between the specific document. And apparently there is some
21 written documentation that would establish, assuming that what the
22 gentleman said is accurate and I have no reason to disbelieve him at
23 least for the moment.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: So sorry. I know I'm wearing my earphones, but
25 I'm losing you.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry. My voice is dropping, and I do
2 apologise. I said that assuming that what the gentleman said is
3 accurate, and I have no reason to disbelieve him for the moment, there is
4 some written information there has memorialised that would establish that
5 which he has said. And I am left with some, at this juncture, cold
6 comfort in terms of his explanation because it doesn't have an evidential
7 basis, and by that I mean there's a lack of foundation.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, there's the cold comfort in which I find
9 myself too. I was going to ask Mr. Butler that I do appreciate what he
10 says, but I thought what the nub of your answer is that on this larger
11 document which is handwritten, somewhere before this entry is made a date
12 is given somewhere.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you happen to know that date to be the 12th of
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, these -- before they were incorporated in
17 my report, I am aware that that project there where we dated this
18 material. So it certainly -- to my satisfaction, I know it's 12 July,
19 otherwise I would not have incorporated it into my material.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Yeah. That's the nub of the answer.
21 MR. HARMON: These notebooks were disclosed to the Defence,
22 Your Honour, so the Defence has them and can examine them.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
24 MR. HARMON:
25 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, again, can you comment on this specifically in
1 relation to how this relates to the movement of the civilian population
2 from the Srebrenica enclave?
3 A. Yes, sir. I mean, it's just generally a one-line that reflects
4 first but the two correspondents Krstic being General Krstic, and
5 Krsmanovic being Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic, and the notation that
6 Krstic wants the buses to start moving right away.
7 Q. And to put this in context, Mr. Butler, when this is at
8 1210 hours, when did the last of the Hotel Fontana meetings end on the
9 12th of July?
10 A. I believe the time that everyone coalesces around is 11.30 is
11 when the last of the meetings ended.
12 Q. All right. Thank you. If we could turn to Prosecution
13 Exhibit 262, please.
14 MR. HARMON: This is referred to, Your Honours, in footnote 247
15 of Mr. Butler's report.
16 Q. Mr. Butler, first of all, can you date this intercept?
17 A. Yes, sir. This is also 12 July 1995.
18 Q. And can you comment on this and how it relates to the movement of
19 the civilian population from Srebrenica?
20 A. Yes, sir, I can. The first part of the conversation, I mean --
21 and just to set the stage, the individual listed as Sobot is in fact
22 Major Sobot, who is the chief of technical services for the Drina Corps
23 on this day in July of 1995.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it not a she manning the switchboard?
25 THE WITNESS: No, where it says Krstic and Sobot ...
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. Because somewhere Krstic says "put me back
2 to the switchboard."
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- or to the switchboard --
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: "Miss, put me through." He says, "Miss, put me
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is he not speaking to a lady?
10 THE WITNESS: He may be speaking to a lady whose monitoring a
11 conversation, but Sobot is in fact the chief of the technical services;
12 it's not the switchboard.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. All right.
14 THE WITNESS: The first part of the conversation occurs at the
15 headquarters of the Drina Corps where Krstic is calling in to the
17 buses and others to make the road secure. At that time if you've
18 noticed, sir, General Krstic goes back and says, Put me through to the
19 switchboard, to the Vlasenica brigade. They switch him through there,
20 and now he's talking to Major Kosoric. This is a different Kosoric than
21 the chief of the intelligence service. This is, I believe, is the chief
22 of staff of the Vlasenica Brigade. And Krstic is discussing the issues
23 relating to securing the road and getting in touch with the police to
24 ensure that the road is secure all the way up to the tunnel area which
25 is -- will be the ultimate debarkation point of the individuals in the
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
3 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, if we can, I'd like to turn our attention to
5 Potocari once again, and on the 12th or 13th of July. And in your
6 report, paragraphs 5.22 and 5.23, you refer to buses being loaded in
7 Bratunac Brigade, persons and VRS military police manning the separation
8 lines and guarding access to the buses. So if we could look at 65 ter
9 4559P, some film footage. We'll stop this again like we did yesterday,
10 Mr. Butler, and I'm going to be asking you some questions to identify
11 certain units, people. Thank you.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. HARMON:
14 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, you'll see as this film progresses, and we've
15 passed a couple soldiers already, are you able to identify, first of all,
16 the units from which those soldiers come?
17 A. Yes, sir. The ongoing investigation has identified them as
18 members of the 2nd Battalion of the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade.
19 Q. All right.
20 MR. HARMON: Continue, please.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. HARMON:
23 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, there is a gentleman, a soldier in the
24 right-hand side of this image. He has -- looks to be wearing a
25 tri-coloured band on his left bicep. Can you identify which unit that
1 individual's from?
2 A. Yes, sir. That's the Bratunac Brigade Military Police Platoon.
3 MR. HARMON: Oh, I'm sorry. And just for the record, Your
4 Honour, we've stopped this at 2.13.09.6.
5 Q. And can you -- was the Bratunac Brigade military platoon a
6 subordinate of the Drina Corps?
7 A. Yes, sir. The police platoon belonged to the Bratunac Light
8 Infantry Brigade, that, in turn, was a subordinate formation of the
9 Drina Corps, sir.
10 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we'll continue with this film for
11 just a ...
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. HARMON: Could this be given an Exhibit Number, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's so given. May it please be given number,
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P2395.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. HARMON:
19 Q. Now, yesterday, Mr. Butler, we saw some film footage with a
20 number of high-ranking members of the Drina Corps in and around Potocari
21 when the buses were moving to and fro. Was General Mladic in the area
22 near the buses at the time that Bosnian Muslim civilians were boarding
23 those buses?
24 A. Yes, sir, he was.
25 Q. Could we have -- could we play 65 ter 4559Q, please.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. HARMON:
3 Q. We have stopped at 03.03.48.7 and who is the man it he
4 short-sleeved short and the camouflage uniform in the middle of this
6 A. That sir is General Ratko Mladic.
7 Q. All right. Continue.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. HARMON:
10 Q. And do you know where that image, Mr. Butler, was taken?
11 A. That image was taken in Potocari, sir.
12 Q. All right.
13 MR. HARMON: Could that be given an exhibit number.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be given an exhibit number, ma'am.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2396, Your Honours.
16 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. HARMON:
19 Q. Now I want to refer you, Mr. Butler, in your report to paragraphs
20 5.24 to 5.26. This deals with Tisca and Luke. And could you very, very
21 briefly --
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: My apologies --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: I just want to make sure. Which report are we on
1 MR. HARMON: P2246.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
3 MR. HARMON:
4 Q. Mr. Butler, can you just briefly describe what happened at that
5 location and let me ask you some additional questions before we look at a
6 film clip.
7 A. Yes, sir. At that location is where the buses ended their
8 journey. The people got off the buses. There was one final separation
9 that occurred there. If for whatever reason there were any military-aged
10 males or other people that they wanted to separate, they would do them
11 there and they put them in a nearby school. It's called the school at
12 Luke. The women and children and the elderly then went to Muslim-held
13 territory, and those individuals who had been detained were taken -- were
14 in the school.
15 Q. What happened to the individuals in the school, Mr. Butler?
16 A. I believe that according to the one survivor that on the evening
17 13th July, they were taken out to a remote location and executed.
18 Q. All right. Could we have 65 ter 4559R on the screen. Before
19 we -- before we actually look at this image, Mr. Butler, these film
20 clips, were you able to identify the units of the VRS that were present
21 at Tisca and Luke?
22 A. Sir, the units would be members of the Vlasenica Light Infantry
23 Brigade and the Milici Light Infantry Brigade, both of the Drina Corps.
24 Q. All right. If we could play this image, please.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. HARMON: Could this be given an exhibit number,
2 Mr. President.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: It will be -- let me just ask one or two
5 Mr. Butler, I seem to observe what looked like women, children,
6 and very old men. I didn't see the separation of the men from the women
7 as you indicated, or is this not the point where that happens?
8 THE WITNESS: No, sir, and you will not see that on the video
9 footage, as far as I'm aware. There's no video footage of that.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
11 The clip is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
12 exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2397, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MR. HARMON:
16 Q. And the image that we just saw, Mr. Butler, was the image of
17 people getting off buses and walking in a direction. In what direction
18 were they walking?
19 A. They were walking towards Bosnian Muslim-held territory.
20 Q. All right. If we could take a look at 65 ter 4559S which relates
21 to this period of time. This is the Luke-Kladanj road, 12 or 13 July
22 1995. If we could play that, please. We'll stop this, Mr. Butler, at
23 some points in the film.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. HARMON:
1 Q. Mr. Butler, what does this film depict, first of all?
2 A. This film depicts the beginning of the group of individuals
3 arriving into Bosnian Muslim-held territory.
4 Q. In the an image - and we've stopped this at 02:15:45:4 - there
5 are -- there's an individual with a blue cap in the middle of the image,
6 and to the left -- to his right, I'm sorry, there's a tall soldier in a
7 camouflage T-shirt, camouflage pants. Could you identify that individual
8 who is in camouflage T-shirt and pants? He's the second person in the
9 foreground from the left.
10 A. Yes, sir, I believe that's imagine Boering from the Dutch
12 Q. We've seen Major Boering earlier in previous film footage?
13 A. Yes, sir, he was at the Hotel Fontana meetings.
14 Q. And he appears to be accompanying, and in fact is accompanying
15 this group of Bosnian Muslims who have been let off the buses and are
16 walking towards the Muslim territory. Can you comment on his presence
17 and whether the presence of UN personnel in the buses was common?
18 A. Yes, sir. One of the things that -- and I have believe
19 Colonel Karremans even noted in his discussions was that one of the
20 things that the UN wanted to do was to escort these convoys out to ensure
21 their safety. At the beginning of the movement of the population out,
22 they put either Dutch personnel in some of the buses or in vehicles
23 accompanying the convoys. That worked for the first couple of convoys,
24 but what rapidly began to happen and as the Dutch started to realise that
25 at various points along the convoy route either Serb soldiers, the
1 Bosnian Serb soldiers, or the Republika Srpska police would be stopping
2 the Dutch, confiscating their vehicles and weapons, and holding them at
3 other locations. So as time goes by as part of this movement, the
4 ability of the Dutch UN soldiers to monitor the movement is degraded.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not following you very well. You started off
6 by saying the Dutch personnel would be in the buses. But now you are
7 saying they would stop their vehicles, confiscate their weapons. Are
8 they in the vehicles, or are they in the buses?
9 THE WITNESS: It started as both. In some cases the Dutch
10 soldiers were riding in the buses. For most part, they used their own
11 vehicles. And what happened in both cases was that the Bosnian Serb
12 military and police units there as the Dutch would go by would be to
13 confiscate the Dutch UN vehicles and the weapons of the all of the
14 soldiers. And by, of course, doing that, it would degrade their ability
15 to monitor that and return back to the Dutch Battalion headquarters.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And did you -- who did you say here is --
17 is the Dutch -- well, is it the man in the blue?
18 THE WITNESS: No, sir. The man in the middle to the left of you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The man in the middle, okay. And the one in the
20 blue headgear?
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know his identity, sir.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can't even identify the uniform which he
24 THE WITNESS: I would assume from the blue beret that he is a UN
25 member, but I don't know any of that.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm trying to keep away from calling it a blue
2 helmet, that's why I say blue gear.
3 THE WITNESS: It's a beret; it's not a helmet.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know what it is. I cannot say. Is it a
6 THE WITNESS: It appears to be a beret, sir, yes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Mr. Harmon.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Just before we move off of that, if we just get
10 some information, if the gentleman has any, on the third person in
11 camouflage unit so we don't have to return to it at a later point in
12 time, if he does.
13 MR. HARMON:
14 Q. Are you able to assist us, Mr. Butler, in identifying either the
15 unit or the person who is at the far left of this particular image? He's
16 wearing -- it looks like a white belt.
17 A. The white belt is typical of a military police individual.
18 However, I cannot tell you whether or not that's somebody at the far end
19 who is a Bosnian Muslim military police member or a member of the Bosnian
20 Serb military police. I don't know.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were the uniforms of the two police similar?
22 THE WITNESS: Almost identical. Many of the combatants wore the
23 former uniforms of the JNA. So uniform alone wouldn't necessarily be a
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. HARMON:
3 Q. Now, are you able to identify at least the -- which army the
4 individual is who is in -- about the middle of the screen, wearing a
5 camouflage uniform and helping a woman in what appears to be a purplish
6 colour garment.
7 And just for the record, we're at 02:16:04:5?
8 A. I believe at this point in the video, it bounces back and forth.
9 I believe at this point the individual is a member of the Bosnian Muslim
10 military forces.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MR. HARMON: If we could continue, please.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. HARMON:
15 Q. Okay. Now, we just saw, Mr. Butler, the caption. It said the
17 13th of July, 1995, in these events?
18 A. Sir, Tuzla
19 east. I believe they were at the aeroport. And after these refugees
20 came through the tunnel and were immediately met in Muslim territory,
21 there was an effort to pick them up from where they were at the Kladanj
22 area and then move them to a better staged facility for them at the Tuzla
24 Q. All right.
25 MR. HARMON: Continue, please.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. HARMON: Could this be given -- could this be given exhibit
3 number, please.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. It is admitted.
5 May it please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2398, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MR. HARMON:
9 Q. Mr. Butler, now I'd like to return to Potocari on the 13th of
10 July, 1995, and specifically I'd like to refer you to your report,
11 paragraphs 5.18 to 5.20 in the Prosecution Exhibit 2246. The subject
12 matter being the separation of Muslim males in Potocari.
13 I'm going to show you three -- two clips of video. First of all,
14 if we could start with P387, and I'm only going to show you a portion of
15 this video and ask you to comment on it.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. HARMON: Actually, we can stop the video there.
18 Q. Mr. Butler, let me show you two other portions of video, and then
19 I'm going to invite your comments.
20 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 4559T on the monitor.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. HARMON:
23 Q. Okay. Mr. Butler, the portion of the film -- and we've stopped
24 this at 02.25.38.8. The portion of the film that precedes that counter
25 number, what does that depict?
1 A. Well, sir, it depicts the separation, or not necessarily the
2 process, but the result. As you can see in the video, the women,
3 children, and elderly men are travelling down one side of the line of
4 buses and trucks. There are soldiers, or at this point in time on the
5 13th, members of the Republika Srpska police in between each vehicle, and
6 that the able-bodied men are going down the other side, and they're not
7 letting the two groups mingle.
8 Q. And what did the interior of that bus depict?
9 A. For the most part, I think it was all completely women. There
10 may have been one or two children in it.
11 Q. Now, I'd like you to view this film footage that starts at
12 18.104.22.168. And I'll just let you know that this is a very, very short
13 portion of the film and advise Your Honours that this very, very short.
14 It's a matter of seconds, this film.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. Just for purposes of clarification,
16 and it maybe my older eyes, which is with regard to what this depicts,
17 and that's all I'm referring to, are you indicating that both groups are
18 depicted in this particular shot? That's what I'm trying to get to.
19 MR. HARMON: In the shot that's now before us?
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: In the shot that's now before us, yes.
21 MR. HARMON: Well, if you just forebear for a moment and --
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, the reason I ask the question is because
23 you asked him a specific -- Mr. Harmon ask him a specific question with
24 regard to this portion of the film.
25 MR. HARMON: No, I asked the question about the film footage that
1 preceded this counter number. So the film footage that started out, it
2 had two separate portions of it. It had the men who were coming down the
3 side of a bus, and then it went to the interior of a bus --
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.
5 MR. HARMON: Now we're focussed on this, and we're going to play
6 this very short portion of the film. And I'm going to invite Mr. Butler
7 to comment on it.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I now understand what you've done.
9 MR. HARMON: Okay, thank you.
10 So if we could play this film, please.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. HARMON: Okay. That was a -- Mr. Butler, we can replay that
13 if you like and for the Court's benefit --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'd like that.
15 MR. HARMON: Could you replay that.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I take it that Your Honour wanted to
18 have me play the portion that lasted about five seconds.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MR. HARMON: It's so fast, Your Honour, that we'll play it -- if
21 the Court or counsel wish, we'll play it one more time.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have -- I have one or two questions to ask. I
23 saw soldiers in blue headgear. I just wanted to find out from Mr. Butler
24 that whether the Dutch police or UNPROFOR -- beg your pardon, not police
25 but soldiers, or UNPROFOR's people still with them here at this time when
1 now it appears that men are being separated from the women?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, they are. And I believe you'll see some
3 further film clips of that. The Dutch -- this is Potocari. This is the
4 Dutch base, so they are still here. You'll also note that by this time
5 that none of them armed.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I noticed that. Will you know whether some of the
7 UNPROFOR people accompanied the males wherever they had been taken?
8 THE WITNESS: The only UN people who are allowed to accompany any
9 males that left were the, I believe, 50 or so wounded men taken from the
10 Dutch Battalion clinic area and were taken to the medical centre that had
11 been set up in Bratunac. I believe one or two of the Dutch doctors were
12 allowed to accompany them at least as early as the 13th and 14th. If I
13 recall correctly, at some juncture the doctors were sent away. But for
14 the separation process that you see here in Potocari and that these
15 people later go to Bratunac, the Dutch were not permitted to accompany
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The able-bodied men, the unwounded men, the
18 healthy men.
19 THE WITNESS: Correct, sir.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: They were in the allowed to accompany them?
21 THE WITNESS: Correct, sir.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed.
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could that 65 ter 4559T be given an
24 exhibit number.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2399, Your Honours.
2 MR. HARMON: Could we have Prosecution Exhibit 389 on the screen,
4 Q. Now, before -- we're going to stop the film. And this is at
5 22.214.171.124. Can you identify the soldier in a camouflage uniform wearing
6 a blue beret?
7 A. Yes, sir, that is Major Kingori. He is not a member of the Dutch
8 Battalion, but he in fact is one of the United Nations' military
9 observers who was at Srebrenica and later at Potocari.
10 Q. All right.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. HARMON:
13 Q. Mr. Butler, do you know where the men who had been separated were
14 taken in Potocari?
15 A. The primary facility that they were taken to was a two- or
16 three-storey building that we know as the white house. It was a building
17 there that the men were being held in, and then later buses would come or
18 trucks would come for them and they would take them to Bratunac. So that
19 structure's known as the white house.
20 Q. And you refer to that in your report, I believe, in paragraph
21 519, 519, of Prosecution Exhibit 2246.
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the white house is in Potocari.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
25 MR. HARMON:
1 Q. Could we have Prosecution Exhibit 3 -- P390 on the monitor.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. HARMON:
4 Q. We've stopped at film at 2:29:49:7. Mr. Butler, this is --
5 depicts a pile of some kind. Can you tell us what's -- that pile
7 A. Yes, sir. Those are the -- those piles are the personal
8 belongings of the men who had been separated.
9 Q. Okay. Please continue.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, you say -- [inaudible]
12 MR. HARMON: Sorry, sir, say again.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you saying that the men were not allowed to
14 take their personal belongings with them?
15 THE WITNESS: That is correct, sir.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it known what became of these personal
17 belongings finally?
18 THE WITNESS: I believe that at some juncture, once they were
19 rifled through by the various people there that they were assembled and
20 burned. They were considered waste products at that point and
21 potentially hazardous, so they were destroyed.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. HARMON: We're going to play another portion of this film.
25 This -- now we're going to play this portion in just a minute.
1 Q. I want to ask you, Mr. Butler, how far was that pile of goods
2 that the personal belongings of the men who had been separated from the
3 white house?
4 A. I believe witnesses who have -- you know, the Dutch primarily,
5 who have described it say that pile goes all the way back and around.
6 Q. But how many metres or feet?
7 A. I don't know, sir.
8 Q. Okay. Is it close to the white house? Is it a long way away
9 from the white house?
10 A. It's actually in very close proximity to the white house.
11 Q. And did your review of the documents in this case establish the
12 purpose, the ostensible purpose for putting men in the white house?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And what was that purpose?
15 A. Given the context of the conflict that had been going on in that
16 area for several years, one of the things that they wanted to do was to
17 screen the Muslim men that were coming into their custody for their
18 potential involvement in war crimes against the Serbs. And in fact the
19 Bratunac Brigade, on the 12th of July, published a list of
20 400 individuals who, according to them, were involved in war crimes
21 against local Bosnian Serbs.
22 Q. And to your knowledge, Mr. Butler, were there any investigations
23 conducted of Bosnian Muslim men who had been separated in Potocari for
24 the commission of war crimes?
25 A. No, sir, not in Potocari.
1 Q. Were there ever any investigations conducted of Bosnian Muslim
2 men from the Srebrenica enclave for the commission of war crimes?
3 A. There was only one individual that I'm aware of, sir, and it was
4 one of the individuals who was among those 50 some-odd people who were
5 evacuated to Bratunac with the Dutch. There will actually be a document,
6 that I believe is dated either 17th or 18th July, that talks about the
7 moment of those people under the control of the Bosnian Serb military and
8 the ICRC with the exception of one individual who is going into police
9 custody because he is somebody who is wanted for war crimes against the
10 Bosnian Serbs.
11 Q. And do you refer to that in paragraph 8.1 of Prosecution
12 Exhibit 2246? The last sentence is that -- the reference point is?
13 Page 79.
14 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
15 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Butler, we have 2.30 -- we stopped at film at
16 126.96.36.199. And it says, "Studio B segment, Petrovic footage." Can you
17 enlighten us as to Studio B and where it's located?
18 A. Yes, sir. Studio B is a Belgrade-based production facility.
19 Zoran Petrovic part of that. What we look at it when we refer to it from
20 an investigative point of view of the Studio B segment, is that we are
21 aware that the entire unaltered, for the most part, version of this was
22 played over Belgrade
24 back then, made a request for the video. We got from the authorities
25 there a version of the video that had some edits in it. So when you see
1 the moniker Studio B segment, what you're looking at is parts of the
2 video that are not altered -- or not -- not that I should say altered,
3 but these are some of the portions that did not initially come into the
4 hands of the Office of the Prosecutor.
5 Q. Let me put it a different way. Is this Studio B portion the
6 unedited version of this film clip?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. HARMON: Now if we could play this, please.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. HARMON:
12 Q. Okay, I've stopped it at 188.8.131.52. Can you identify the
13 building where there appears to be a balcony and men seated behind the
15 A. Yes, sir. That is the facility that we refer to as the
16 white house.
17 MR. HARMON: Please continue.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. HARMON:
20 Q. Mr. Butler, I want to change locations now both in terms of the
21 geography of the Srebrenica area and in terms of the location in your
22 report. Specifically I want to refer you to those portions of your
23 report, paragraph 6.13 to paragraph 6.25 in Prosecution Exhibit 2246
24 where you describe the RS, MUP, and Drina Corps units on the
25 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road on the 12th and 13th of July, 1995. In that
1 section you identify persons and units who were involved in the events
2 along that part of the road. Can you locate us -- first of all, where is
3 this road, the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road in relation to the Srebrenica
5 A. A bit difficult without a map, but if I can try and draw a mental
6 picture. The road runs parallel to the route that the Bosnian Muslim
7 column would be taking towards Muslim-held territory. So geographically
8 speaking, where the road runs from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje is
9 important. The relevance for this particular segment of film is the fact
10 that because of its proximity to where the column was coming across,
11 thousands of individuals from that column on various days surrendered to
12 Bosnian Serb military and police forces along that stretch of the road.
13 And that is the relevance of that particular road stretch to the
14 Srebrenica -- the larger Srebrenica crime base.
15 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this question, Mr. Butler. Was it -- did
16 your evidence show or did the evidence you analysed, including this film
17 clip, show that along -- all along that road the Bosnian Serb forces
18 attempted to interdict the column as it was making its way north toward
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I really would appreciate [Microphone not
23 activated]. Especially on something --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: There we go. I really would appreciate it if
1 Mr. Harmon would not lead the witness, especially on something like this.
2 MR. HARMON: That portion of what I led the witness on is
3 described in detail in this report, so I'm relating to certain elements
4 of this report so I can introduce the film.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: If you establish a nexus --
6 I seem to be having trouble with my microphone. It seems to be
7 going on and off. Perhaps we could get at that taken care of during the
9 If he establishes a nexus between the report and the question, I
10 obviously have no difficulties.
11 MR. HARMON:
12 Q. Now, Mr. Butler in paragraph -- along that road there was a
13 location known as Sandici meadow, and you refer to that in paragraph
14 6.29. Briefly, what occurred at Sandici meadow? What was the importance
15 of Sandici meadow in these events?
16 A. Prisoners being captured along or surrendering to the VRS and
17 Republika Srpska police forces along that portion of the road were
18 collected and guarded in the Sandici meadow.
19 MR. HARMON: Okay. Now, let's start, if we can, with 65 ter
20 4559U. If that could be placed on.
21 Q. Now, this says "On the road." We stopped it at 184.108.40.206. Just
22 for clarity of the record, which road are we talking about here,
23 Mr. Butler?
24 A. The Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road, sir.
25 Q. All right.
1 MR. HARMON: Now, if we could play this video.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. HARMON: I've stopped this almost immediately at 220.127.116.11.
4 Q. Mr. Butler, where is this footage taken?
5 A. This is at the Sandici meadow, sir.
6 Q. All right.
7 MR. HARMON: Please continue.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. HARMON: We've stopped at 02.39.25.6.
10 Q. Mr. Butler, can we identify the unit in which these two soldiers
11 are members of?
12 A. Yes, sir, they are members of the Republika Srpska Special Police
13 Brigade, specifically the 2nd Sekovici Detachment.
14 Q. And they were under whose command?
15 A. They were directly under the command of the police,
16 Lieutenant-Colonel Borovcanin was the senior police officer there. They
17 operated under the control of the military at this juncture, because both
18 the police and military forces were responsible for this road area.
19 MR. HARMON: Okay. We're going to stop this in just a few more
20 seconds, but if we could play on.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. HARMON:
23 Q. Mr. Butler, we've stopped the film at 18.104.22.168. Do you know
24 where this film footage is located?
25 A. Yes, sir. I believe that's Sandici again, just a different view
1 of it.
2 Q. And there are some people standing. Can you identify those
4 A. I believe that in the course of the investigation there -- you
5 can't tell obviously from the distance here, but they're members of
6 either the 2nd Sekovici Detachment or members of the 1st Municipal Police
7 Company, the 1st PJP, that was also accompanying the 2nd Sekovici
8 Detachment. So these are police personnel in this group. I don't
9 believe any of them are soldiers.
10 Q. All right.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon, we're way --
12 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I wasn't attentive to the
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I wasn't either. I'm sorry. Is it convenient or
15 would you finish -- mind if we finish?
16 MR. HARMON: We can carry on with this portion of the film after
17 the recess, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's take a break and come back at 4.00. Court
20 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry about the late start. It was due to
23 circumstances beyond our control.
24 Mr. Harmon.
25 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if we can interrupt the playing of this
1 film. What I have done is I have taken from the map book 65 ter 9243,
2 which is a map, 15 of the map book. And I have printed hard copies for
3 counsel, for the witness, and for Your Honours. If they could be
4 distributed. They may be of -- oh, if Your Honours have the map books
5 with you, then if I could --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Her Honour does; I didn't. Thank you.
7 MR. HARMON: And if the witness could be given a copy of this
8 map, and if he can then, I think, provide greater clarity to the Court as
9 to the locations that we have been talking about.
10 Q. Mr. Butler --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, any comment?
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: No objections.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I figured based on some of the questions that
15 were being asked, it made sense for the map to be shown so that there was
16 an understanding of what was being said.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. HARMON:
19 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, you have a hard copy of the map in front of you,
20 and I want you to orient us, if you will, to this map. First of all, to
21 the lower right-hand corner with a -- in a purplish line, it looks like
22 an amoeba, can you identify what that purple line represents?
23 A. Yes, sir. That is the boundary of the Srebrenica safe area.
24 Q. Okay. And within that purple line we can see both the town of
25 Srebrenica, the town of Potocari
1 Susnjari and Jaglici. Once again, can you just tell us the significance
2 of Susnjari and Jaglici?
3 A. That was where the column of military-age Muslim men from
4 Srebrenica assembled to begin to make their trek towards the free
5 territory around Tuzla
6 Q. Now, from the town of Susnjari and Jaglici there appears to be
7 red lines, two parallel red lines heading in a north-westerly direction,
8 ending past a tunnel at the top, past Hadzici and Orahovac. Do you know
9 what those red lines are?
10 A. Yes, sir. These red lines, their origin comes from a map that
11 was seized by the Office of the Prosecutor from the Zvornik Infantry
12 Brigade. It's a representation off of that Bosnian Serb military map in
13 gross terms of the route of the column as it went from the former
14 Srebrenica safe area to and through the lines of the Bratunac Brigade,
15 the RS police, and then the rear area of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.
16 Q. Now, if we again look at this map and we go from the town of
17 Potocari and we go slightly up the road, we see the town of Bratunac
18 Can you just direct the Court's attention to the road between Bratunac
19 and Konjevic Polje and the various locations on it?
20 A. Yes, sir. From Bratunac, travelling in a left-hand direction on
21 the map, you'll go through Glogova, Kravica, Sandici, and then up to the
22 road intersection; it's known as the intersection between the Konjevic
23 Polje-Bratunac road. The actual village of Konjevic Polje is right
24 around at that intersection.
25 Q. And if we turn left on that road and descend, we go -- we go past
1 Nova Kasaba; correct?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. And --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just -- if the record could that when you
5 say moving from Bratunac to the left, you mean in a north-westerly
6 direction, slightly north but mainly west.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that's correct, in that north-western
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Mr. Harmon.
10 MR. HARMON:
11 Q. Now, can you orient us from the intersection of Konjevic Polje to
12 Tisca and Luke, the route that was taken with the people who had been
13 forcibly transferred from the enclave. Could you just orient us on this
14 map, sir?
15 A. Yes, sir. As you follow that road, it goes south from
16 Konjevic Polje to Nova Kasaba to Milici, west from Milici to Vlasenica,
17 up into that north-westerly direction from Vlasenica to Tisca, and then
18 west to Luke. And then of course that purple line that you see depicted
19 on the map is -- at that time was the confrontation line, and that is
20 where, you know -- separated the territory held under the control of the
21 Republika Srpska and the territory under the control of the Bosnian army.
22 Q. Okay. Now let me orient you to two features we've been talking
23 about, and we will be seeing -- and we have just seen in this video-clip
24 that we have been looking before we took a break, the Sandici meadows.
25 Now, on this map between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje, there is a
1 mark, Sandici. Is that -- does that represent the meadows or a village?
2 What does that represent, Mr. Butler?
3 A. That, sir, represents the meadow at Sandici.
4 Q. Okay. In your report, Mr. Butler, you identify a number of
5 primary execution sites. Can you just -- are -- well, I see that they're
6 marked in red with a red dot; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. And I see one location which -- Cerska is referred to in your
9 report as the location of a mass execution. Did the mass execution take
10 place in the town of Cerska
11 the road between Konjevic Polje and Cerska?
12 A. The execution, sir, did it not take place in the town; it took
13 place along the river valley leading -- it's -- that area is known as the
14 Cerska Valley
15 inside the actual town.
16 Q. Okay. I think we'll refer to this map as we go along. And if
17 the Court has any questions at this point in terms of features on this
18 map, Your Honour, I invite you to -- could this be given an exhibit
19 number then, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2400.
22 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Butler, now what I'd like to do is return to the film clip
24 that we were looking after before the break, and we start at -- we're
25 going to start where we left off, which is 22.214.171.124, and if we could
1 just carry on playing.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. HARMON: Can we stop there just for a second.
4 Q. Again, Mr. Butler, we are stopped at 126.96.36.199. A second or two
5 before it said "Studio B segment." Again, what does that mean in this --
6 in relation to the film we're about to watch?
7 A. It was the unedited portion of the film, sir.
8 Q. And this -- you can see in the upper right-hand corner of this
9 image where I have stopped the film, a logo. Can you tell us what that
10 logo is?
11 A. I believe that is the Studio B logo.
12 Q. Okay. If we can -- let me ask you one additional question. Can
13 you identify the -- the soldiers and what unit they belong to, the one on
14 the left-hand side?
15 A. I believe this shot pans around. Several of the soldiers are
16 from the 2nd Sekovici. I can't tell you if the dog unit that we're
17 looking at is from that particular unit as well, but they are
18 Republika Srpska police.
19 Q. Okay. Then we can continue.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I note that the man on the left in the picture
21 seems to be in civilian clothes, or am I right? Am I wrong?
22 MR. HARMON: I think, Your Honour, that as we play this, it will
23 become clearer. I hope so, at least.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Proceed.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. HARMON: I don't think it did become clearer, Your Honour, so
2 I -- but I think if we start again, we'll see a better image. If we
3 could just --
4 Carmela, go back a little bit on that.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. HARMON: We stopped at -- we've stopped at 188.8.131.52.
7 Q. Mr. Butler, are you able to assist us with that image?
8 A. Again, sir, it's a member of the RS police. It's not a civilian
9 per se.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. But how do you know that if he's -- if he's
11 in civilian clothes?
12 THE WITNESS: Sir, I don't believe he's in civilian clothes. His
13 top, he's wearing a police top, and it's my understanding from the
14 investigation that all of these individuals have been identified as
15 members of the RS police.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. HARMON: We've stopped the film at 184.108.40.206.
19 Q. Mr. Butler, first of all, can you identify the man who is to the
20 immediate right of the individual wearing the blue helmet?
21 A. That's Ljubisa Borovcanin, he's the deputy commander of the
22 Republika Srpska Special Police Brigade.
23 Q. And he is talking -- appears to be talking to somebody or at
24 least facing in the direction of somebody wearing a blue helmet. What
25 observations do you have about this frame of the footage?
1 A. Well, sir, I can tell you that that is not a United Nations
2 individual. In fact, it's another member of the RS police. The Dutch,
3 as part of their story, they talk about their weapons and their blue
4 helmets and other things being stolen from them during the course of the
5 days. Several of these survivors of the executions who ultimately were
6 interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor, talk about being -- or being
7 coerced to surrender or being asked to surrender by individuals who were
8 wearing United Nations gear. And in one case one particular individual
9 says that, you know, up until the time that he surrendered he thought he
10 was putting himself in the custody of the United Nations, only to realise
11 that in fact it wasn't.
12 So this is not an uncommon theme that you will have these
13 individuals wearing UN equipment.
14 MR. HARMON: Okay. Carry on, please.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. HARMON: We've stopped the film at 2.52.00.7.
17 Q. Mr. Butler, the young boy in the purple sweater who appears in
18 this image, what was his fate?
19 A. He actually survived, sir.
20 Q. And has he been a witness in this institution, to your knowledge?
21 A. Yes, sir, he has.
22 Q. All right. Thank you.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. HARMON: Could 65 ter 4559U be given an exhibit number,
25 Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2401.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MR. HARMON:
5 Q. Mr. Butler, I want to turn to your report, if I could, P2246. I
6 want to turn to paragraphs 6.28 to 6.31, and then also to -- through to
7 6.36. Those portions, Mr. Butler, you discuss the Kravica warehouse
8 events, the massacre on the 13th of July, 1995. We have a map before us
9 that show the location of Kravica and Sandici. My question to you is
10 what is the relationship between the prisoners who were detained at the
11 Sandici meadow, we've seen them in the video earlier, and the Kravica
13 A. Most of the prisoners who were held in the Sandici meadow,
14 captured, and then brought there throughout the course of the day, were
15 either taken by buses and trucks or were marched down the road by foot to
16 the Kravica warehouse. So almost everyone who was at the Sandici meadow
17 prior to about 1600 or so ultimately went to the Kravica warehouse.
18 Q. And the units that were responsible for transporting the
19 prisoners from the Sandici meadow to Kravica warehouse and the persons
20 responsible for guarding them, which units did they belong to?
21 A. They belonged to the Republika Srpska Unit, the Special Police
22 Unit, the Sekovici Unit, or the 1st PJP Company.
23 Q. Now, did you obtain or did you review the footage showing Kravica
24 warehouse shortly after or possibly even during the tail-end of the
1 A. Yes, sir, I have.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: When did you say PJP stood for?
3 THE WITNESS: The municipal police in the Zvornik area organised
4 not only by local police stations, but when they were mobilised to do
5 military functions they would be put into special municipal police units.
6 We give them the acronym PJP. Those -- in the case of the 2nd Sekovici
7 Detachment, it operated with one of those municipal police units, the 1st
8 Municipal Police Unit. The police officers are made up from the Zvornik
9 municipality or the whole sector for Zvornik. So that's -- it's a
10 distinction that we make with respect to the members of the Special
11 Police Brigade and those police officers who were there performing
12 military-related duties who were normally police officers within the
13 greater security sector of Zvornik.
14 MR. HARMON:
15 Q. Could we have 65 ter 4559V on the monitor.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. HARMON: Okay.
18 Q. Mr. Butler, we're about to go to a segment of the film we just
19 saw, which is a slow-motion segment, Petrovic Studio B footage. You've
20 seen this before coming into court. Can you tell us the Studio B portion
21 of the film depicting the Kravica warehouse, was that viewed or displayed
22 in Belgrade
23 A. Yes, sir, that segment of the footage actually made it onto
24 Belgrade TV with the original playing of this video.
25 Q. And in the -- at the time that footage was taken, we can hear
1 voices in the vehicle, the people who were filming and talking amongst
2 themselves. Do you know the identity of those persons?
3 A. One of them is Mr. Petrovic -- Pecanic, the other is
4 Ljubisa Borovcanin. There's a third person in the vehicle, I don't know
5 his identity.
6 MR. HARMON: Now if we could start this portion of the film.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are these people media people?
8 THE WITNESS: Zoran Petrovic is the media person.
9 Ljubisa Borovcanin -- I'm sorry, Ljubisa Borovcanin is the commander or
10 the deputy commander of the Special Police Brigade. The reason why
11 Zoran Petrovic had the access that he had, was he spent a day
12 accompanying Lieutenant-Colonel Borovcanin around on the 13th of July.
13 MR. HARMON:
14 Q. Borovcanin, whose voice we hear in this film is the same one we
15 saw of the individual who was standing next to the Serb -- VRS soldier
16 with the blue helmet just a moment ago.
17 A. Correct, sir.
18 MR. HARMON: Okay.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 MR. HARMON: All right. Now if we could play this segment.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. HARMON:
23 Q. The segment we're watching, Mr. Butler, is the Kravica warehouse.
24 A. That is correct, sir.
25 Q. In the upper right we can see the NTV logo. We did see it.
1 MR. HARMON: All right. Your Honour, if the Court wants to view
2 that again, we can replay it. If not, I'll ask that it be given an
3 exhibit number and admitted. It's a very short segment, but --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence.
5 May it please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2400.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Butler, now I'd like to turn to your report, if I can, again
10 paragraphs 7.71 through 7.73 where you describe the -- and it's in
11 Prosecution Exhibit 2264, where you describe the column and the events at
12 that relate to it.
13 Briefly, Mr. Butler, can you tell us approximately what
14 percentage of the people in the column, from the original column that
15 left Susnjari and Jaglici, how many of them actually arrived in Bosnian
16 Muslim occupied territory, approximately?
17 A. I think the number -- and it's always kind of difficult because
18 nobody really knows how big the column was to start with. I think the
19 last number that I've seen on that may be about 4 or 5.000, maybe even as
20 high as 7.000.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is that figure? Is that the figure of the
22 people who originally left? Because the question is what percentage of
23 that figure finally arrived.
24 THE WITNESS: The column size at its origin is estimated at
25 approximately 12 to 15.000 people. I think somewhere between 5 and 7.000
1 ultimately arrive. So I guess we're looking at roughly half, maybe less.
2 MR. HARMON:
3 Q. Mr. Butler, in paragraph 7.10 of P2246, you indicate that -- you
4 indicate that people had been transferred -- transported, people who had
5 been captured had been transported from the area of Bratunac and taken
6 into the area of the Zvornik Brigade. Let me just ask you, the people
7 who had been transported who would have been captured and been
8 transport -- the males who had been transported to the area of the
9 Zvornik Brigade, where were they transported to?
10 A. There were four primary locations that they were transported to.
11 They were unused schools in the Zvornik Brigade area. One was the school
12 at Grbavci. One was the school at Petkovci. The third was a school
13 location at the village of Rocevic
14 Pilica. And as the school at Pilica filled up, they ended up having to
15 put people in the cultural centre in the village of Pilica
16 Q. Now, in terms of the locations of those schools, in which brigade
17 area of responsibility were those schools located?
18 A. They are all within the area of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.
19 Q. And you've earlier identified Colonel Vinko Pandurevic as the
20 commander of the Zvornik Brigade. Who was the deputy commander or chief
21 of staff of the Zvornik Brigade?
22 A. At the time that would be Major Dragan Obrenovic.
23 Q. Okay. If we could take a look at three documents in order -- if
24 I could first of all have 65 ter 2591.06 on the monitor.
25 Mr. Butler, let me ask you first of all, this document, as we can
1 see on the left-hand side, upper left-hand side, this is from the
2 commander of the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade. This document is dated
3 the 15th of July, 1995. It is an interim combat report to be delivered
4 to the command of the Drina Corps.
5 If we could turn, first of all, to see who the author of this
6 document is. That would be to the next page we would see in the English
7 translation the author of the document. Okay. This document has been
8 authored by Colonel Vinko Pandurevic.
9 I want to direct your attention to a portion that's on the first
10 page. If we could return to the first page of the English.
11 First of all, just in very general terms, Mr. Butler, what is
12 this -- what does this report concern?
13 A. This report is a report by the brigade commander personally to
14 the Drina Corps explaining the current situation in his brigade zone with
15 respect to a variety of activities.
16 Q. Okay. Now, if we could scroll up on the English version. Okay.
17 And I want to direct your attention to the fourth paragraph from the
18 bottom. It starts out with "An additional burden for us," and I can't
19 see the complete English on that. So is there a way to view the complete
20 English? Is looks like it's cut off a little bit.
21 Okay. The passage, Mr. Butler, that says:
22 "An additional burden for us is the large number of prisoners
23 distributed throughout schools in the brigade area as well as obligations
24 of security and sanitary technical measures in the field."
25 To put this document in context, the 15th of July, 1995, what
1 massacres had happened in the zone of responsibility of the
2 Zvornik Brigade by the 15th -- around the 15th of July, 1995?
3 A. The first of the large-scale executions started on the afternoon
4 of the 14th of July at Orahovac. That continued to the late evening
5 hours and approximately a thousand people were killed there.
6 Following through in the late evening hours of the 14th through
7 the early morning hours and almost until sunup on the 15th of July,
8 another 800 to a thousand people who are held at the school at Petkovci
9 are taken to the foot of an old dam and were executed there. Later on
10 the day of the 15th the individuals who are being held at the school of
11 Rocevic are taken to the bank of the Drina River in an area known as
12 Kozluk and are executed at that location, and that is probably another
13 800 to a thousand. So as this interim report is being written, the
14 prisoners held at the schools at Orahovac and ay Petkovci are already
15 dead. And the ones that are being held at Rocevic are in the process of
16 being killed on the banks of the Drina River
17 Q. And at the same time this is happening, what is happening in
18 respect of the column in the Zvornik Brigade area of operation?
19 A. At this juncture the Zvornik Brigade and the Drina Corps
20 recognises the magnitude of the military threat that the column poses,
21 and they are marshalling forces, either military forces or police forces,
22 and trying to block the route of the column so it cannot escape.
23 Q. Can you -- now, directing you to the portion I just read to you a
24 minute ago, "An additional burden for us," can you comment on that
25 particular portion. Particularly I'm interested in obligations of
1 security and sanitary technical measures in the field. Can you comment
2 on --
3 A. Yes, sir, my interpretation of this is what he's referring to is
4 guarding the prisoners and the phrase "sanitary technicals" that's listed
5 is here is "asanacija." I believe that reference is burying the
6 prisoners after they've been executed.
7 Q. Okay.
8 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could this document be given an exhibit
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Haven't we seen a document like this before?
11 MR. HARMON: I don't know, Your Honour. I don't think this has
12 yet been exhibited. I'm informed that this only is --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a clear recollection of this report where
14 the author was saying if he's not getting any assistance, he's going to
15 let the people go.
16 MR. HARMON: That may be, Your Honour. That, I think, is another
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is another document?
19 MR. HARMON: Yes, sir.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. It's admitted.
21 May it please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2403.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
24 MR. HARMON: Now, Your Honour, if I could just have a minute. I
25 want to double check. Because that was the next document I was going to
1 exhibit that I was -- wasn't informed that was already an exhibit. So if
2 I can just have minute.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, you can exhibit it. I couldn't possibly
4 tell you what exhibit number it is if it is, indeed, already admitted.
5 So you might as well have it admitted. But I have that recollection.
6 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 The next document, then, that I'd like to show is 65 ter 2591.
8 Q. Mr. Butler, this document is a document that is dated the 16th of
9 July, 1995, from the command of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. It is an
10 interim combat report. We can go to the second page to see who the
11 author is. Do you know who the author of this document was?
12 A. It's also the brigade commander, Colonel Vinko Pandurevic.
13 Q. Let me direct your attention, if I can, if we can scroll up on
14 the English version to paragraph 3, and in this paragraph, Mr. Butler, it
15 describes at the beginning of the paragraph, it describes the -- what is
16 a -- clearly quite a difficult conflict that's taking place in the
17 Zvornik area of responsibility, and then it says five lines from the
18 bottom of that paragraph:
19 "I have decided in view of the situation to open a corridor
20 along the line of the three trenches for the civilian population - about
21 5.000 of them. I have agreed on a method of evacuation with the enemy
22 side and this is now going forward."
23 Can you comment on that?
24 A. Well, sir, based on the intensive combat that occurred with the
25 column and the Zvornik Brigade and the forces in there, on the evening
1 hours of the 15th and the early morning hours of the 16th, by the
2 afternoon Colonel Pandurevic makes the decision on his own to conclude a
3 24-hour battlefield truce with the Bosnian Muslim forces to allow a chunk
4 of this column to leave Bosnian Serb territory and make it over to
5 Bosnian Muslim territory.
6 In this particular interim combat report, that is what he's
8 MR. HARMON: Okay. Could this be given an exhibit number,
9 Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted.
11 May it please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2404.
13 MR. HARMON: If we could go to 65 ter 5754, please.
14 Q. Mr. Butler, let me identify this document first of all. This is
15 a document that is from the command of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. It
16 is dated the 18th of July, 1995. It's an interim combat report. Do you
17 know who authored this document?
18 A. Also Colonel Pandurevic.
19 Q. If we could go to page 2 of the English. I want to go to item
20 number 4, to the bottom of the page.
21 Mr. Butler, item number 4 says that:
22 "During the last 10 days or so, the municipality of Zvornik
23 been swamped with Srebrenica Turks. It is inconceivable to me that
24 someone brought in 3.000 Turks of military age and placed them in schools
25 in the municipality, in addition to the 7.000 or so who have fled into
1 the forests."
2 I invite your comments on this, please, Mr. Butler.
3 A. There's a bit of contextual history behind this it particular
4 paragraph in this particular report. Once the Main Staff of the VRS
5 found out that Colonel Pandurevic had concluded this battlefield truce to
6 essentially allow parts of this column to escape, they put together a
7 commission of senior VRS officers to go to the Zvornik Infantry Brigade
8 and to determine what exactly happened and potentially recommend back to
9 the Main
10 Colonel Pandurevic.
11 This entire report, when you read it, is Colonel Pandurevic's
12 laid out defence of his actions as well as the defence of the combat
13 burden the Zvornik Brigade has been incurring for the last several
14 months. And it's directed to the commander of the Drina Corps, his
15 superior, to explain his actions and the things that happened.
16 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Butler.
17 MR. HARMON: Could this, Your Honour, be given an exhibit number,
18 this item.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted.
20 May it please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2405.
22 MR. HARMON:
23 Q. Mr. Butler, briefly can you summarise the role of the
24 Zvornik Brigade in the massacres, in the detention and the transportation
25 of the prisoners in the Zvornik area of responsibility? You outline it
1 in your report with detail, but just for the purposes of this record, can
2 you summarise it?
3 A. I'm try and do it as quick as possible. Zvornik Brigade
4 personnel and equipment were used in part to transfer the captured men
5 from in and around Bratunac to the Zvornik area. Zvornik Brigade
6 soldiers were used to guard them at these facilities. Soldiers of the
7 Zvornik Brigade participated in the Orahovac executions, as well as now
8 the investigation has learned the Rocevic executions at Kozluk, engineers
9 from the Zvornik Infantry Brigade and equipment from the
10 Engineering Company was used to bury the bodies of these individuals. As
11 other prisoners were taken other trucks were used to transport them.
12 Many of these prisoners are subsequently still missing.
13 So I mean in a nutshell, large components of all sections of the
14 Zvornik Brigades had at least some role in these larger crimes.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Butler. If we could turn to 65 ter 4559W.
16 MR. HARMON: This clip, Your Honours, is a clip depicting the
17 survivors of the column as they walk through into the territory occupied
18 by the Bosnian forces, Bosnian government forces. So if we could play
19 that, please.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. HARMON: May this film clip, Your Honour, be given an exhibit
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted.
24 May it please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2406.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 MR. HARMON:
3 Q. Mr. Butler, I want to turn your attention to a different topic
4 now. In part your report you focus on General Krstic and
5 General Zivanovic and when General -- the time when General Krstic
6 assumed command of the Drina Corps. I'm going to refer you to section
7 9.12 of Prosecution Exhibit 2246 and the ensuing paragraphs of that
9 MR. HARMON: If I could have 65 ter 411 on the monitor, please.
10 Q. Mr. Butler, the document that's on the monitor in front of you is
11 a document that says in the upper left-hand corner, "Command, Drina
12 Corps." It's dated the 13th of July, 1995, and the subject is "Handover
13 of corps commander duties, information." I'd like to have you comment on
14 this document, if you would, please.
15 A. Yes, sir. This is a document that was published by the chief of
16 personnel and legal issues, Colonel -- or Lieutenant-Colonel Jovicic to
17 the following units which are all of the subordinate units of the
18 Drina Corps for the purpose of advising them that effective at -- on this
19 date and this time that General Zivanovic was no longer the commander of
20 the Drina Corps, and in fact that General Krstic was now assuming command
21 of the Drina
22 Q. And what does it say in respect of General Zivanovic and what his
23 duties would be?
24 A. He was appointed to new duties within the VJ Army of Yugoslavia
25 and VRS Army of Republika Srpska.
1 Q. And below that paragraph, Mr. Butler, it refers to an individual,
2 Colonel Svetozar Andric.
3 MR. HARMON: I think we have seen Colonel Andric, Your Honours,
4 in the film of the -- General Mladic entering into Srebrenica. He has
5 been identified previously in that film.
6 Q. Again for purposes, Mr. Butler, of this document, tell us who
7 Colonel Andric is and what position he assumed.
8 A. Colonel Andric was the commander of the 1st Birac Infantry
9 Brigade of the Drina
10 the Drina
11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if this document could be admitted into
12 evidence and given an exhibit number, please.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted.
14 May it please be given an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2407.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 5755 on the monitor, please.
18 This document that we'll be referring to is referred to in paragraph 9.13
19 of Prosecution Exhibit 2246. It is specifically footnote 524.
20 Q. Mr. Butler, this is a document from the command of the
22 English version. Thank you - it is an order to search the terrain, and
23 it is issued by commander Major-General Radislav Krstic. Can you comment
24 on this document, please, and what significance it had, Mr. Butler, in
25 terms of dating the time when General Krstic assumed command of the
2 A. Yes, sir. This is the first written order that the Office of the
3 Prosecutor is aware of that General Krstic signed as the corps commander.
4 We've actually in series of timing when you look at the outbound
5 transition stamps, I believe this is approximately 2030 hours is when
6 this was received by the communications centre -- or 2000 hours by the
7 communications centre, and then dispatched 30 minutes later. So it
8 serves to confirm the view that by approximately 2000 hours on 13 July
9 1995, General Krstic is functioning as the Drina Corps commander.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MR. HARMON: Could this document, Your Honours, be given an
12 Exhibit Number.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted.
14 May it please be given an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2408.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And would that be a convenient time, Mr. Harmon?
17 MR. HARMON: I have two very, very brief questions, Your Honour.
18 Yes, it will be.
19 Q. Just in terms of General Krstic, did he have a nickname, and if
20 you know, what was it?
21 A. He was often referred to by General Mladic and other generals as
23 Q. And did General Zivanovic have a nickname, and if so -- if you
24 know, what was it?
25 A. Again the same people referred to him as Zile.
1 MR. HARMON: All right. This is a convenient time, Your Honour,
2 to break.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. We will take a break and
4 return at quarter to 6.00. Court adjourned.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
8 MR. HARMON:
9 Q. Mr. Butler, in your report P2246 paragraph 6.29, you mention that
10 persons who had surrendered or were captured from the column were
11 detained in multiple locations. We've already discussed the Sandici
12 meadow. Where else besides the Sandici meadow were persons who were
13 captured or who had surrendered from the column detained?
14 A. They were detained at the football stadium in the town of
15 Nova Kasaba, which was also the garrison of the 65th -- I am sorry, the
16 military police battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment. They were
17 held in the town of Konjevic Polje, that intersection down there, either
18 under police or military control. There was a smaller group held in a
19 meadow near Sandici called Jaglici. And those were the primary
20 collection areas that we were aware of on 13 July 1995.
21 Q. So I see from the map that we've just introduced, which is P2400,
22 that both Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje are indicated on the map. Let
23 me just turn now to some exhibits, if I may.
24 MR. HARMON: Could I have Prosecution Exhibit 274 on the screen,
1 Q. Mr. Butler, this is referred to in your report in paragraph 12.8,
2 Prosecution Exhibit 2246. Mr. Butler, the -- can you date this
4 A. Yes, sir. This intercept is dated 13 July 1995.
5 Q. And the two participants in the interview are identified as Beara
6 and Lucic, and apparently a third person, Zoka, barely audible. Who is
8 A. Beara is Colonel Ljubisa Beara. He is the chief of security on
9 the Main Staff.
10 Q. And can you identify Lucic?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 MR. HARMON:
13 Q. Sorry. Could you identify Lucic? Do you know who he is?
14 A. No, sir, I don't.
15 Q. Okay. And can you tell us the significance of this intercept,
16 Mr. Butler?
17 A. In this particular intercept, they are discussing locations and
18 numbers of Bosnian Muslim prisoners that are being taken along various
19 portions of the road on 13 July 1995
20 Q. And if we go in this intercept to the third portion where Beara
21 or letter B is speaking -- I'm sorry. It appears to be the portion where
22 it says B at the top:
23 "Do you hear me? Do you know that 400 balijas have shown up in
24 Konjevic Polje?"
25 Can you comment on that, Mr. Butler?
1 A. Yes, sir. I mean, the investigation is aware that prisoners were
2 being detained at Konjevic Polje. The discussion here is relative to the
4 Q. All right. Do you know what happened to those prisoners who had
5 been detained at Konjevic Polje?
6 A. A number of different routes that they all took. Some of them
7 ended up going later down to Sandici and ended up in the Kravica
8 warehouse. Others were on buses and trucks. They spent the evening of
9 13 July, and some of them potentially the 14th of July, in Bratunac and
10 then were later transferred to the area of the Zvornik Brigade and
11 presumably died in the mass executions there.
12 MR. HARMON: Could we turn to Prosecution Exhibit 273, please.
13 Q. Mr. Butler, this intercept, in the third line down -- actually,
14 let me invite your comments on this intercept. Mr. Butler, what is the
15 significance of this intercept?
16 A. Well, sir, first it talks about Malinic's unit in a location that
17 they have 1.500 people gathered there at the stadium. The individual
18 named Malinic is Major Zoran Malinic. He is the commander of the
19 Military Police Battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment, and they are
20 garrisoned at Nova Kasaba, and again to date this document is 13 July
22 Q. And Malinic's unit, the 65th Protection Regiment, is a
23 subordinate unit of which superior unit?
24 A. The 65th Protection Regiment is directly subordinate to the
25 Main Staff of the army of the Republika Srpska.
1 Q. Okay. Now, can you -- based on your review of the documents and
2 the evidence, what role did the members of the 65th Protection Regiment
3 have in the events that we've been discussing?
4 A. They were active in combat against the column as it came over the
5 road between Konjevic Polje and Nova Kasaba and were active in capturing
6 prisoners at that location and holding them at the soccer field at
7 Nova Kasaba.
8 Q. Did they have any additional role in dealing with the prisoners
9 from Nova Kasaba?
10 A. I know that they were suspected of being directly involved in
11 some executions. However, since I have been out of the Tribunal for a
12 number of years, I cannot tell you what the state of the investigation is
13 with respect to them and whether they've ever been able to prove their
14 involvement or not.
15 MR. HARMON: All right. Could we turn to Prosecution
16 Exhibit 266, please.
17 Q. Mr. Butler, are you able to date this intercept? This is
18 referred to in your report, paragraph 7.64. It's footnote 452.
19 A. Sir, I believe we date this intercept -- I just want to be clear
20 on it. I'm sorry, could you say the footnote again, please, sir.
21 Q. Footnote 452.
22 A. Oh, 452. Yes, sir. This one is dated 14 July 1995.
23 Q. Okay. And the -- there's some features of this intercept I want
24 you to explain to the Court. First of all, the first line -- actually,
25 let me go up to the top. It says: "Participants, Palma Duty Officer
1 (Major Jokic)"
2 Who is that, sir?
3 A. Major Jokic, Major Dragan Jokic is the chief of engineer services
4 for the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. On 14 July 1995 he was also serving
5 duty as the brigade duty officer at the brigade headquarters.
6 Q. Okay. Now, there's a reference in the intercept. We can see it
7 in that same line where Major Jokic is identified. The reference is --
8 it says "Palma Duty Officer." Tell me what Palma is a reference to.
9 A. Each of the units had a telephonic code-name that was associated
10 with it. Palma
11 Brigade. You'll see another one, Badem. Badem is the telephonic
12 code-name for the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade.
13 Q. Okay. Now, where it -- at the top it says, "The Palma duty
14 officer wants to talk to him. Beara is needed urgently ..."
15 Again, can you identify Beara in this particular intercept?
16 A. I'm sorry, say again, sir.
17 Q. Can you identify the Beara who is referred to in this intercept?
18 A. Yes, sir. This is the same -- this is the same Colonel Beara
19 from the Main Staff security administration.
20 Q. And if you go down below that it says: "The superior commander
21 urgently needs him." What is the reference to superior command? What
22 does that mean?
23 A. In this particular context, the superior commander that they're
24 talking to is the Main Staff.
25 Q. The Main Staff of the VRS; correct?
1 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
2 Q. Okay. Now, just -- can you comment on this intercept,
3 Mr. Butler, and its significance?
4 A. Well, sir, one of the things that we used this particular
5 intercept for is that the knowledge of, one, the fact that they were
6 aware where Beara is and people are trying to track him down and pass a
7 message that they need to talk to him --
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. I do hate to interrupt, but if we
9 could have a little bit more specific language than "they," because he's
10 saying there's some significance. So we'll just --
11 MR. HARMON: I would be glad to clarify.
12 Q. Could you be more precise, Mr. Butler?
13 A. When you look at the text, "I'm the duty officer Palma
14 Beara urgently." So in this particular context, the "they" that are
15 looking for them are the Zvornik Brigade. Keep in mind at this
16 particular time there are probably upwards of 3.000 prisoners in various
17 schools up there.
18 Q. Up where? When you say up there --
19 A. I'm sorry. Up where, being the Zvornik Brigade area.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. I apologise.
22 And lieutenant -- Colonel Beara was heavily engaged in that
23 effort. So ultimately what happens in this conversation is that Badem,
24 Bratunac, puts him on the line and is discussing issues in this
25 particular context talking about the column breaking through. "The Turks
1 have pushed our guys back towards Crni Vrh," a location.
2 Q. Okay. And there's a reference in this intercept a little bit
3 further down where it says:
4 "We were together, Colonel, sir, number 155 called you and asked
5 you to call him urgently." Based on your review of the documents, can
6 you identify this -- what number 155 designates?
7 A. Yes, sir. On the military telecommunications network, the number
8 155 is the phone number that is for the operations room of the VRS Main
10 Q. If we go down further in that intercept -- if we could scroll up,
11 please in the English version.
12 Okay. Bottom line of this intercept it says: "Yes, hey."
13 "J" designates Jokic in this conversation. So Jokic says: "Yes, hey.
14 We have huge problems over here."
15 Could we go to the second page of the English. To the top of
16 this document.
17 And then at the top we see Jokic saying:
18 "There are big problems. Well with the people, I mean, the
20 Okay. What significance -- what is the significance of the term
21 "parcel," Mr. Butler?
22 A. There was a general awareness that the Bosnian Muslims had the
23 ability and were intercepting these VRS telecommunications, these voice
24 telecommunications on their multichannel network. So they often tried to
25 talk around certain issues by using code words. One of the frequent
1 euphemisms that we hear for people associated with being prisoners are
3 Q. Now, this -- contextually, Mr. Butler, this intercept takes place
4 on the 14th of July, 1995
5 this in context for us, this intercept.
6 A. Well, sir, at this particular point in time you have several
7 events happening in the Zvornik Brigade area. On the criminal side you
8 have the executions that are being finished up at the school at Orahovac.
9 Further to the south and to the east in the area of Snagovo and in the
10 hills to the south, the armed portion of the column has just broken
11 through the VRS ambushes that were down in that area and are now moving
12 towards the north, north-east -- I'm sorry, north, north-west and are in
13 a position to threaten the rear areas now of several battalions of the
14 Zvornik Brigade. So you see a series of intercepted telephone calls that
15 go by reflecting the fact that their lines are being broken by the column
16 coming up the south. They are dealing with all of these other issues.
17 They're running out of manpower, and they are frantically calling for
19 MR. HARMON: Okay. Could we turn to Prosecution Exhibit 271 as
20 the next exhibit, please.
21 Q. This, Mr. Butler, is in paragraph 10.23 of your report, footnote
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. I'm just trying to locate the intercept in the right-hand side in
25 the B/C/S version, because --
1 A. It will be the first line. "Colonel Beara looking for
2 General Zivanovic."
3 MR. HARMON: So we have the same difficulty that we've discussed
4 earlier, Your Honour. This intercept that's reproduced in English is --
5 the first -- the top lines of this larger text. We'll resolve that,
6 Your Honour, with -- a little bit later.
7 Q. But tell me, Mr. Butler, this is -- first of all, what is the
8 date is this intercept?
9 A. This has been dated to 15 July 1995.
10 Q. And can you identify the significance of this particular
11 intercept in the context of the events that were taking place in the
12 Zvornik area of responsibility -- or in the Drina Corps area of
13 responsibility? I'm sorry.
14 A. This is the first of a series of related intercepts where
15 Colonel Beara, who has now gone back to Zvornik, is looking for
16 assistance from the Drina Corps to deal with issues related to the
17 prisoners. As the text says, Colonel Beara looking for
18 General Zivanovic. He's not there. He left -- "he" being Colonel Beara
19 leaves the message for the general to call him at extension 139.
20 Q. Do you know who and what extension 139 was?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. What was it?
23 A. Extension 139 is the phone in the office of Lieutenant
24 Drago Nikolic, the chief of security for the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.
25 Q. And on the 15th of July, can you contextualise what had happened
1 in the Zvornik area of responsibility by -- at or approximately 9.52
2 hours in the morning when this intercept -- when this conversation was
4 A. Well, on the one hand with the column, the column is still
5 progressing to the north, north-west and is getting closer to the rear
6 areas of several of the battalions of the Zvornik Brigade. On the
7 criminal side, the prisoners at Orahovac are dead, but their engineers
8 are still involved in burying them. They've just finished executing the
9 last of the prisoners at the Petkovci dam. And they're now having to
10 deal with all of the prisoners that are at the school in Rocevic as well
11 as those further north in Pilica.
12 MR. HARMON: Could we turn to the next exhibit which is
13 Prosecution Exhibit 272.
14 Q. This is found in your footnote 584 in Prosecution Exhibit 2246.
15 This -- Mr. Butler
16 A. Again, this is 15 July 1995
17 Q. And this takes place -- this conversation is intercepted at 9.54,
18 which is two minutes after the previous intercept we look at, correct?
19 A. Correct, sir.
20 Q. Can you tell us the significance of this intercept?
21 A. In this particular intercept, Colonel Beara and General Zivanovic
22 are talking about the issue of the reinforcements that were supposed to
23 be sent up to the Zvornik Brigade to deal with some of these for whatever
24 reason did not make it. And he's petitioning General Zivanovic to try
25 and bring in more replacements to deal with these issues. I believe if
1 you scroll further down, he's talking about send -- you know, have them,
2 at least a platoon sent immediately. And at this particular juncture
3 what you have is General Zivanovic saying, "I can't order that any more,"
4 a reflection that General Zivanovic is no longer the corps commander and
5 does not have the authority to order various units of the Drina Corps to
6 do things. And he gives him another extension number, 385.
7 Q. And what is that extension number?
8 A. Well, sir, as it says further down, it says Zlatar and 385.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Zlatar is a telephonic code for the Drina Corps, and 385 is an
11 extension that's run out to the forward command post of the Drina Corps
12 where General Radislav Krstic is at the moment.
13 MR. HARMON: Okay. Can we turn to the Prosecution Exhibit 264,
14 please. This is found in paragraph 10.5 of Prosecution Exhibit 2246, and
15 it is found in and referred to in footnotes 585 to 587.
16 Q. This, Mr. Butler, is a conversation at 1000 hours. First of all,
17 what date does this conversation take place?
18 A. 15 July 1995
19 Q. And the two participants are Colonel Ljubisa Beara and
20 General Krstic. Now, can you explain the significance of this intercept
21 to us, Mr. Butler?
22 A. Yes, sir. Again, Colonel Beara now talking with General Krstic,
23 asking for at least an additional 30 men, just like was ordered. Krstic
24 is telling him take them from Nastic or Blagojevic. Nastic at this time
25 is the commander of the Milici Brigade. Blagojevic is the commander of
1 the Bratunac Brigade. And General Krstic, who is involved right now with
2 the Zepa operation, is saying that, "I can't take any people out from
3 here." Beara's basically saying is they don't have any people either,
4 "And I can't do anything with -- without another 15, 30 men," and that
5 they didn't arrive.
6 MR. HARMON: Can we scroll down to the bottom of this -- up --
7 can we scroll up on the English version of the intercept.
8 Q. Okay. Now, if you could continue, Mr. Butler, in describing in
10 A. Colonel Beara, as you can tell from the text, is -- is a little
11 bit frustrated, says, "I don't know what to do any more." And of course
12 General Krstic at that point suggests that you take some of the guys from
13 the MUP, the police officers. And Beara's saying they won't do this.
14 They won't do anything. "I've talked to them, and there's no other
16 Then goes down to the bottom and then finally you have
17 Colonel Beara saying to General Krstic, you know, that I have still have
18 3.500 parcels that I have to distribute, and I have no solution.
19 Q. And your interpretation of 3.500 parcels, Mr. Butler, in the
20 context of -- first of all, tell us the context of 15 July in the area of
21 the -- Zvornik and how you interpret 3.500 parcels.
22 A. Well, sir, Colonel Beara is a security officer; he's not a combat
23 commander. And given the military police situation, the fact that
24 Colonel Pandurevic is now returning to the area, I -- I can only take
25 this conversation that what they're referring to in 3.500 parcels is
1 prisoners that are still located at the schools.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, was this conversation that we've looked at,
3 P264, intercepted from multiple locations by the members of the Bosnian
4 government army forces?
5 A. Yes, sir, it was.
6 Q. Okay. And you have recorded the various versions -- different
7 versions of this in your report; is that correct, in footnotes 585 to
9 A. Yes, sir. I've highlighted the fact that various versions of
10 this particular intercept exist and that there are slight linguistic
11 differences in how they were transcribed as well as from one particular
12 site, one of the correspondents was not necessarily, I believe, either
13 faded out or could not be heard on a regular basis. So there are
14 multiple versions of this particular intercept.
15 Q. All captured from different intercept locations; correct?
16 A. Correct, sir.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. HARMON: Those, Your Honour, for the record, are Prosecution
19 Exhibits 268, 267, and 238. Those other versions are identified in
20 Mr. Butler's report.
21 Q. Now, if we could turn to Prosecution Exhibit 269, Mr. Butler.
22 This is found in your report, paragraph 1040. It's footnote 600,
23 Mr. Butler.
24 Can you -- Mr. Butler, can you date this intercept?
25 A. Yes, sir. This particular intercept is dated 16 July 1995.
1 Q. And this happens in the morning hours at 1111 hours. And the two
2 participants are Colonel Beara and an individual identified as Cerovic.
3 Who is Cerovic?
4 A. Cerovic in this intercept is Colonel Slobodan Cerovic. He is the
5 assistant commander for morale, legal, and religious affairs for the
7 officer of the Drina Corps at the headquarters in Vlasenica.
8 Q. Can you interpret this intercept, please, in the context of the
9 events and in the context of the other documents you've reviewed?
10 A. In this particular context, you have Colonel Beara talking to
11 Colonel Cerovic, and they discuss the fact that triage needs to be done
12 on the prisoners. In this sense at this particular time, they're not
13 separating prisoners. So the euphemism "triage" in this particular case
14 refers to killing them.
15 Q. And again based on your review of the materials, can you
16 enlighten us as to what happened on the 16th of July in respect of
18 A. All the prisoners that were held at the school in Pilica were
19 taken by buses and trucks to the Branjevo farm where they were executed,
20 and once those executions were completed, the last sizable group of
21 prisoners, those that were in the Pilica cultural centre in the town of
22 Pilica were killed on the spot there.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Butler. Could we turn to three intercepts that
24 relate to Colonel Vujadin Popovic. Again we've seen Colonel Popovic,
25 Mr. Butler, in various clips of film footage that we reviewed yesterday.
1 Just again for purposes of this set of documents, who was he and what was
2 his position?
3 A. Colonel Popovic was the Drina Corps assistant commander for
5 Q. Could we have Prosecution Exhibit 270 on the monitor, please.
6 This is referred to, Mr. Butler, in paragraph 10.41 of your report. It's
7 your report, Prosecution Exhibit 2246. I'll just confirm that for a
9 Tell me, first of all, Mr. Butler, can you interpret this
10 intercept for us?
11 A. Yes, sir. It starts out as a conversation where these duty
12 officers Zlatar and Palma
13 do, and the Palma
14 fuel are needed for Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic. The line of course
15 disconnects and then it re-picks up again, and he can tell that they're
16 looking; I need to speak to the Zlatar duty officer. Ultimately he gets
17 connected to an individual named Basevic, who was an officer in the
18 Drina Corps rear services division. And they're talking about, you know,
19 the duty officer at Palma
20 needs 500 litres of fuel, or the work that he's doing is going to stop.
21 Basevic responds back, "Don't you have that?" And the Palma
22 says, "Well, I don't know."
23 Q. Could we go to the next page of the English translation, second
24 page. I didn't ask you to date this intercept, Mr. Butler. Can you date
1 A. Yes, sir. This date is 16 July 1995.
2 Q. Okay. And on the second page of this, can you now review that
3 and continue with your description of this.
4 A. Again, the conversation cuts out and then they switch over to --
5 ask for Major Golic. Major Golic is a Drina Corps officer with the
6 intelligence section of the Drina Corps who's at Vlasenica. So the duty
7 officer is saying, you know, pop - that's his nickname for Popovic - Pop
8 just called, told me to contact you. 500 litres of the fuel have to be
9 sent immediately, otherwise his work will stop.
10 Couple more switches, and then Palma, the duty officer, again
12 "A bus loaded with oil is to go to Pilica village. That's it,
13 500 litres."
14 Q. And what work was going on, on the 16th of July, Mr. Butler?
15 A. In Pilica the work that was going on is that the buses who were
16 taking the people who were held in the school, they were being
17 transferred by buses from the school location to Branjevo farm where they
18 were executed.
19 Q. Did Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic receive his 500 litres of fuel?
20 A. Yes, sir, he did.
21 Q. Could we take a look at 65 ter 2513, please. There are
22 apparently two English translations. The ERN number on this is 00844508.
23 Mr. Butler, can you orient us through this document, please, and
24 what its significance is in relation to the previous intercept?
25 A. Yes, sir. This is a document that originated from the technical
1 services people of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade reflecting that
2 500 litres of diesel fuel had been dispersed to -- in the name of
3 Colonel Popovic, and it's a remark at the bottom that 140 litres were
4 subsequently returned.
5 Q. Okay, now, on this document just for everybody's benefit, where
6 does it says that it was disbursed to Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic?
7 A. If you look at line number 14 and line number 15. Command of the
9 Q. So those are the boxes that are designated by 14 and 15 on the
10 right-hand side?
11 A. Correct, sir.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could this document be given an exhibit
14 number, please.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2409.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
20 Q. Now I'd like to take a look at some additional intercepts that
21 relate to Colonel -- Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic. Could we have
22 Prosecution Exhibit 276 on the monitor. This is referenced in paragraph
23 10.50 of your report that we've been referring to, Prosecution
24 Exhibit 2246.
25 MR. HARMON: Okay. That upside-down version isn't particularly
1 helpful. There we go. Thank you. If we could scroll to the top of that
2 English version. Okay.
3 Q. Mr. Butler, first of all -- well, let's wait to get it on the
4 screen so it's in the right --
5 MR. HARMON: Only a portion of this is reproduced on the English
6 version. Could it go into a lower font, smaller sized font? We still
7 have the -- we need to get it in the right sized font. Just a minute.
8 Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Butler, first of all, can you date this intercept?
10 A. Yes, sir. This intercept has been dated 17 July 1995.
11 Q. And can you tell us who the correspondents are in this
13 A. I don't believe "X" is ever identified, but "T" is Trbic. He is
14 the deputy security officer for the Zvornik Brigade under Lieutenant
15 Drago Nikolic. And on this particular day, Trbic is the duty officer.
16 Q. Can you tell us the significance of this particular intercept?
17 A. As referent X, or correspondent X, I guess, is the best way to
18 say that, is looking for the location of Popovic, Colonel Popovic.
19 Q. Is that referred to by the name Pop?
20 A. Yes, sir, that is a nickname that is often associated with
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Indicating that Popovic is north of you, and then saying, they
24 want -- "Leave right away for here for Zlatar 01."
25 Q. What is Zlatar 01?
1 A. Zlatar is the code-name for the Drina Corps. When you see a
2 number associated like that, 01, they're referring to the commander
3 personally. So the phrase "Zlatar 01" refers to General Krstic at this
5 Q. Okay. And what's the significance of this intercept, Mr. Butler?
6 A. The north of here towards that task, geographically speaking,
7 Pilica is to the north of the Zvornik Brigade headquarters. Reflecting a
8 common knowledge of what that task is north of you. The other
9 significance that I have always placed in this is part of the Krstic
10 trial was the fact that how widespread the knowledge is to include, you
11 know, General Krstic, Zlatar 01.
12 Q. Now can we look at Prosecution Exhibit 244 which is an intercept
13 that takes place at 1249 hours.
14 This is referred to in your report, paragraph 1050.
15 Mr. Butler, can you, first of all, give us a date for this
17 A. It's been dated at 17 July 1995
18 Q. And is the correspondent Trbic the same individual you have
19 identified just in the previous exhibit?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Okay. Tell us the significance of this particular intercept.
22 A. In this particular intercept, it's a reflection that the orders
23 have now changed. The person that they were talking about, "Let him now
24 finish the work. If you get in touch with him, let him finish that work
25 and then have him come."
1 And then there's another comment several lines later down that's
2 basically says: "And have him report immediately here at Golac."
3 Q. What does that mean, "at Golac"?
4 A. If one takes the phrase they're referring to Golic and not Golac,
5 that's would be report back to the Drina
6 Major Golic is at the time. So he's basically instructing him that once
7 the work is done to come back to the Drina Corps headquarters.
8 Q. Okay. Can we look at a related intercept, Mr. Butler. It's
9 Prosecution Exhibit 245. This is referenced in paragraph 10.52 of your
10 report, Prosecution Exhibit 2246.
11 Mr. Butler, can you date this intercept, please?
12 A. Yes, sir, this intercept has also been dated 17 July 1995.
13 Q. Can you identify its significance in the events that relate to
14 the crimes?
15 A. One of the correspondents is inaudible. The other one is
16 Popovic, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic. He refers to one individual as
17 "boss." In the context of the discussions that we here of these
18 individuals, his superior, "boss," is in fact General Krstic. And he's
19 reporting back, everything's okay, that the job is done. "It's all been
20 brought to an end with no problems." He's noting the fact that he's at
21 the base, wants to take a break and then, you know, he'll see you later.
22 Or I think it says, he want to take a shower, and then, "I'll think again
23 later. The job gets an A, a grade A. It's all taken care of."
24 Q. What's your interpretation of the job as being referred to?
25 A. Popovic was involved with the --
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I see no indication of the intercept indicating
4 there was a job.
5 MR. HARMON: Okay. Let me rephrase that then.
6 Q. What is your interpretation of the word "basically that gets
7 an A, an A, the grade A, everything's okay"? What's your interpretation
8 of this intercept, Mr. Butler, and its significance in your analysis?
9 A. Well, two things. Again if you look if he first line of the
10 intercept it notes that the job is done. That job is, in fact, the
11 completion of the burial. The last bodies were buried at Pilica on 17
12 July 1995. The fact that it gets an A, it's done, it's completed. Gets
13 we finished all the work that we have to do.
14 Q. Okay. Finally, Mr. Butler, I'd like to turn to what's referenced
15 in chapter 11 of your report, paragraph 11. And we're going to be
16 dealing with the subject of the reburials. First all, Mr. Butler, can
17 you summarise what burials you're referring to in general terms and
18 explain to the Trial Chamber when those took place and why they took
20 A. Yes, sir. In the middle of August 1995, at the United Nations, a
21 number of governments laid forth evidence of the mass executions that had
22 occurred with respect to Srebrenica. And some of that evidence included
23 aerial images of prisoners in various groups as well as burial operations
24 afterwards. Once it was clear that a number of the sites where the
25 bodies were identified and were known now to the international community,
1 the VRS embarked on a roughly two-month effort to go into those sites in
2 the evenings, disinter the remains of the executed prisoners and then to
3 hide them further in the woods in, what we call, secondary or even
4 tertiary grave sites, in far more remote locations in an effort to hide
5 the evidence of the crime.
6 Q. Could I have 65 ter 2610 on the monitor, please.
7 Mr. Butler, this document is from the General Staff of the Army
8 of the Republika Srpska. It bears a number, 03/4-2341, and it is dated
9 the 14th of September, 1995. It is urgent. It is addressed to the
10 command of the Drina Corps logistics sector of the General Staff of the
11 Army of the Republika Srpska, with a copy to the 1st Zvornik Infantry
12 Brigade for their information. And the name that appears at the bottom
13 left of this document is the commander Colonel-General Ratko Mladic.
14 Can you inform the Trial Chamber the significance of this
15 particular document?
16 A. Yes, sir. This is a document where General Mladic directs that
17 five tons of diesel fuel be allocated and delivered to standard barracks
18 in Zvornik. Standard is the former standard shoe factory which was the
19 wartime headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade. It puts the fuel in the
20 custody of Captain Milorad Trpic, a slight error. In fact, it's
21 Milorad Trbic, who is the same deputy chief of security of the
23 Zvornik Infantry Brigade that we discussed earlier. Notes that he's
24 going to be responsible for the accurate maintenance of the records, the
25 fuel use and the engine hours for this particular task.
1 Completely interesting in so much as the fact that, again,
2 Captain Trbic is a security officer; he's not an engineer. So that is
3 why this message is generally and specifically interpreted by me to be
4 related to the reburial operation.
5 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could this Exhibit be given an exhibit
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted.
8 May it please be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2410.
10 MR. HARMON:
11 Q. Let me turn to a related item, Mr. Butler. Could we have 65 ter
12 2611 on the monitor, please.
13 Mr. Butler, this is a 14 September 1991 document emanating from
14 the Main
15 technical division. It is urgent. It is directed to the command of the
16 35th logistics base, the Drina Corps command for information, and the 1st
17 Zvornik Infantry Brigade for information. It is signed by Colonel
18 Zarko Ljubojecic. Can you tell us the significance of this document in
19 particular in relation to the previous document that we examined,
20 Prosecution Exhibit 2410?
21 A. Yes, sir. As you can see in this particular document it notes
22 pursuant to the order of the commander of the Main Staff, and then later
23 in the document references that order, directs the 35th logistics base to
24 issue 5.000 litres of diesel fuel. It further notes that a Drina Corps
25 representative shall collect the fuel and provide the transportation.
1 Q. In this document, what is it associated with, Mr. Butler, in your
3 A. This is a follow-on disbursal order for the Main Staff for the
4 fuel related to the burial operation.
5 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Butler.
6 MR. HARMON: I have concluded my examination of Mr. Butler,
7 Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
9 Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry, may I have just a moment. I failed to
11 seek an exhibit number on the last document, Your Honour, 65 ter 2611.
12 If that could be given an exhibit number.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted into evidence.
14 May it please be given an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2411.
16 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we're waiting for Mr. Guy-Smith, can I just
18 ask one question, Mr. Butler.
19 Were the secondary or even tertiary burial places all identified
20 and found?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. As a component of the investigation, and
22 I can't give you the number off the top of my head, sir, but I believe
23 there are in the neighbourhood of 30 of them that have been identified
24 over the years. Almost all of them have been exhumed to this juncture.
25 There may be others out there that have yet to be identified, but I
1 believe that most of them have been identified.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 Sorry about that, Mr. Guy-Smith.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Not a problem. Not a problem at all.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
6 Q. Good evening.
7 A. Good evening, sir.
8 Q. I know you've testified many times. I know you've testified for
9 many days. I do not intend on keeping you here for one of those long
10 bouts that you've been in before. However, I'm sure we're going to spend
11 some time with each other. I'm saying that to give you some kind of
13 A. I've learned to dispel all hope when I come in here, sir.
14 Q. I'd like to -- I'd like to start if I could just very briefly
15 with regard to an understanding of the cases in which you've testified.
16 You've mentioned a number of those cases. And in addition it's my
17 understanding that you've testified, I believe at least twice in the
18 United States District Court on immigration, or what I believe to be, as
19 I understand them, extradition matters. One in the case of United
20 States v. Veselin Vidacak, case number 1-06CR278-1, which was in
21 Greensboro, North Carolina; correct?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. And you also testified, I believe, in the case of United
24 States v. Marko Baskic, CR-04-10298-DPW, and that I believe was in
1 A. Correct, sir.
2 Q. I may have missed one, I think, there was actually one other one,
3 too, which was the case of Milovic and Jankovic, which was also a
5 A. Correct, sir.
6 Q. I may have --
7 A. [Overlapping speakers]...
8 Q. [Overlapping speakers]...
9 A. There are additional cases that I have testified in, but those
10 are the early three or four, yes.
11 Q. And when you say there are additional cases you've testified in,
12 are you referring to additional cases that you've testified in, in the
13 United States court system with regard to issues concerning, what I will
14 call, in a general sense, the conflict?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Okay. And before we go any further, could you just identify
17 those cases for us if -- if you can?
18 A. There is a series of three or four cases out of the Middle
19 District of Florida. I believe it would be the United States
20 Government v. Popovic, United States Government v. Krsmanovic. There is
21 one more whose name of the defendant escapes me. There was an additional
22 criminal case in Cleveland
23 US v. -- what's the name?
24 Q. We'll get to it.
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. Apart from that, I believe you've also testified in some special
2 war crimes tribunals; correct?
3 A. Yes, sir. I've been asked to and I've testified in
4 Srebrenica-related cases before the special -- or the state war crimes
5 court in Sarajevo
6 Q. Okay. And I'm just trying to get it -- just a rough idea. It's
7 fair to say that you have been occupied with the matters concerning
8 Srebrenica clearly for over a decade; true?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And in that -- in that regard, you've -- you have had occasion
11 to, from what I understand, both here as well as in other testimonies,
12 you've had occasion to review thousands of documents, videotapes, books,
13 studies; correct?
14 A. Yes, sir, just to keep in mind that my period of daily active
15 work with this material ended in November of 2003, although I've had
16 periods where I have been able to come back here to The Hague and spend
17 several weeks or a month looking at new material in preparation for the
18 subsequent trials.
19 Q. I understand that. And with regard, just so we have a general
20 understanding, apart from documents that you've looked at which you've
21 discussed with us here today, and by that I mean documents that were
22 seized from one particular army, by that I mean the VRS, as I understand
23 it you've also had occasion to review, as you told us the other day, the
24 Dutch report on Srebrenica; correct?
25 A. The Dutch report that I reviewed on Srebrenica was the initial
1 Dutch debriefing report that was done in 1995. I have not reviewed the
2 Dutch Nijad [phoen] report is, I think, the one that you're referring to.
3 That was actually being published, I believe during the Blagojevic trial.
4 So I've never spoken to the individuals associated with that, and I have
5 not reviewed that report in any detail. I'm not even sure which parts of
6 it have been translated into English yet.
7 Q. Okay. With regard to the case of General Krstic, this is a case
8 that you actively worked on, as you've told us both during the trial
9 phase and during the appeal phase, if I understood your testimony
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Okay. And with regard to your work in that case, did you -- did
13 you have occasion to review the testimonies of such individuals as
15 A. I may have read his -- his statements. I don't recall that I
16 would have followed his court testimony, sir.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. But I --
19 MR. HARMON: Could I just have a first name for Halilovic? Which
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Enver. That's Hadzihasanovic. It's Enver.
23 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: The day has gone by -- the day is long. Sefer.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like a break, Mr. Guy-Smith?
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, I'll go for the ten minutes, Your Honour.
2 Q. That's Sefer Halilovic.
3 A. Yes. Again, I probably read his statement. I don't know that I
4 followed his court testimony.
5 Q. Okay. I want to take -- what I want to do is just take a moment
6 here with regard to your familiarising yourself with the Bosnian Muslim
7 army individuals, if I could.
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Okay. Could you tell the Chamber who Enver Halilovic [sic] was
10 during the conflict?
11 A. I believe that General Halilovic was at one point one of the
12 senior commanders of the Bosnian army.
13 Q. Okay.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just so that we don't get confused a little later,
15 now Halilovic at line 13 is given the first name Enver. We had corrected
16 that to Sefer.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. Thank you. And with regard to --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I'm saying this because subsequently, the
19 correction now is being -- we got it wrong again on the script.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Oh, dear. Thank you so much, Your Honour. If we
21 could have a correction on line --
22 Q. And if you don't mind just while we're dealing with the Bosnian
23 Muslim army, if you don't mind calling it the Bosnian Muslim army or the
24 ABiH, just so that we don't run into problems later on.
25 A. Will do, sir.
1 Q. Thank you so much. Did you become acquainted with a gentleman by
2 the last name of Delic?
3 A. I know generally of him. I don't know many of the details
4 related to him.
5 Q. Generally, when you know say generally, could you put him in the
6 pantheon of the Bosnian Muslim army?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think maybe you should give us the first name of
8 this Delic, Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm so bad on first names. Rasim. Rasim Delic.
10 Q. Are you with me?
11 A. Yes, sir. It's been a few years. Rasim Delic is also a senior
12 general with the Bosnian Muslim army.
13 Q. And a name that I'm going to mispronounce, which is
14 Enver Hadzihasanovic. Are you familiar with -- with that particular
15 individual in terms of being a part of the Bosnian Muslim army during the
17 A. Yes, sir. Again, I don't recall his exact position, but I am
18 aware that he was a -- a general, and again in the senior leadership
20 Q. With regard to your work in the Krstic case, did you have
21 occasion -- as you sit here today, did you have occasion -- I guess,
22 first of all, I have to ask if you remember reviewing any of their
23 testimonies with regard to the prosecution of General Krstic?
24 A. No, sir. If I recall the timing correctly, they were after at
25 least the initial trial of General Krstic. So again -- I know that
1 certainly in the case of Mr. Hadzihasanovic, I believe, and Delic, that
2 they were the subject of proceedings here, but I think that those came in
3 time, after General Krstic.
4 Q. I appreciate that. What I'm referring to is having -- whether or
5 not you had occasion to review their testimonies as against
6 General Krstic.
7 A. Oh, as against General Krstic.
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. No, sir, I have not.
10 Q. Okay. Now, with regard to the analysis, and I'm now dealing with
11 it in the most general of terms first of all. With regard to the
12 analysis that you were engaged in, I take it that part of what you had to
13 sort through was the fact that at the time there were allegations of
14 criminal activities there was also actual combat occurring; correct?
15 A. Correct, sir.
16 Q. Okay. And you've given us -- you've given us some help in that
17 regard by mentioning, if I'm not mistaken, that's the 28th Brigade, which
18 was the Bosnian Muslim brigade.
19 A. That's the 28th Infantry Division, sir.
20 Q. Thank you so much. And with regard to the 28th Infantry
21 Division, during the period of time that your testimony is focussed on
22 that in July, could you tell us who was the commander of the 28th
23 Infantry Division for the Bosnian Muslim army?
24 A. The nominal commander would have been Naser Oric.
25 Q. And when you say nominal commander, what is the particular use of
1 that adjective in your response?
2 A. In May of 1995, Naser Oric and a group of the other officers,
3 senior officers from the 28th Infantry Division -- I almost hate to open
4 this can of worms again, but basically were flown out of the enclave and
5 were in Tuzla
6 Division were not with the division at the beginning of Operation Krivaja
8 Q. And we'll be in this can of worms at some point or another, and I
9 think that Mr. Harmon has earlier indicated today that there are other
10 documents that are going to come in. This has become somewhat of a live
11 issue in this case. To the extent that you've been getting the lash of
12 anything, I do apologise, but such is life.
13 A. Occupational hazard, sir.
14 Q. Indeed so.
15 With regard to them being flown out, you mentioned Oric. Who
16 else was flown out, if you know, at that time?
17 A. I --
18 Q. And this was again based on the researches you've done and the
19 documents that you've reviewed.
20 A. I'm aware that it was a number of senior commanders. I don't
21 know the names of those individuals off the top of my head, sir.
22 Q. And after Naser Oric departed from the area, do you know who took
23 over in his place instead?
24 A. I believe I have in my report, if you will allow me to reference
25 back --
1 Q. Please.
2 A. It's been --
3 Q. And when you refer to your report, I take it you're referring to
4 2466, your narrative report; correct?
5 A. Yes, sir, the revised narrative. I have some of the
6 28th Division materials, but I don't believe I mentioned the name of the
7 commander in this particular passage, so I'll have to say at this
8 juncture I don't recall who it is.
9 Q. Okay. And finally just one last question for this evening but
10 not one last question in this area. During the course of your research
11 with regard to the Bosnian Muslim army, did you become aware of the fact
12 that there were Mujahedin fighters who were in that army?
13 A. In the entirety of the army, yes, sir.
14 Q. Yes. Did you learn anything with regard to any of the benefits
15 that the Mujahedin fighters received as a result of being involved with
16 the Bosnian Muslim army?
17 A. My understanding is that those individuals were provided
18 citizenship and were allowed to reside in Bosnia-Herzegovina after the
20 Q. And since I've used the term generically, "Mujahedin fighters,"
21 did you, in the documents that you reviewed and research that you did,
22 obtain information from where these fighters came, and by that I mean by
23 country or region or both?
24 A. The phrase "Mujahedin fighters" is associated with individuals
25 who are not native from the region but are, in fact, individuals who,
1 either from Arabic or other Muslim countries in north Africa, the Middle
2 East, or south-east Asia
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you so much. Would this be an appropriate
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, it is. We will take a break and come back
6 tomorrow, this time at 9.00 in the morning, Mr. Butler.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is in courtroom I.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Once again you are warned not to communicate with
11 anybody during the break until you are excused from testifying.
12 THE WITNESS: I understand, sir.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Court is adjourns to tomorrow --
14 THE USHER: [Overlapping speakers]...
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th day
17 of May, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.