1 Wednesday, 17 June, 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.40 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom. Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 May we have the appearances for today, starting with the
12 MS. BOLTON: Yes, Your Honour, it's Lorna Bolton, Mark Harmon,
13 and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.
15 And for the Defence.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good afternoon. Daniela Tasic, Chad
17 Milos Androvic, Kay Marshall, Novak Lukic, and I'm Gregor Guy-Smith on
18 behalf of Mr. Perisic.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith. Before we
20 start, just for the record, we sit in pursuant to Rule 15 bis this
21 afternoon. Judge David is finish in Lukic and Lukic trying to finish up
22 before the other judge leaves the Tribunal.
23 Madam Bolton, will you call your witness, please.
24 MS. BOLTON: Yes. Mr. Sacirbey, good afternoon or good morning
25 to you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to you, Mr. Sacirbey.
2 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I was looking for a witness in court
4 here, that's why I said call your witness, I forgot you were far away.
5 Mr. Sacirbey, just to remind you that you are still bound by the
6 declaration you made on the beginning of your testimony to tell the
7 truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth.
8 WITNESS: MUHAMED SACIRBEY [Resumed]
9 [Witness testified by videolink]
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, and I remain close to those words,
11 Your Honour. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 It has come to the notice of the Chamber that the room you are in
14 is very warm and that, at some stage, you might prefer to take off your
15 jacket, we will understand.
16 THE WITNESS: Your Honour I understand that it's very important
17 to try to get through all the material and give Defence counsel the
18 opportunity for cross, so I have tried to endeavour to go through this
19 even under some rather stuffy conditions here.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
21 THE WITNESS: In the interest of justice, I hope you will allow
22 that. Thank you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you want to take off your jacket feel free.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 Madam Bolton.
2 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
3 Examination by Ms. Bolton: [Continued]
4 Q. Sir, I'm going start today by just clarifying a few things that
5 you've said in your testimony to date, and just want to remind you at the
6 outset of the need for you to be succinct in your answers as we have a
7 great deal of material to cover. Okay?
8 A. Thank you. Yes.
9 Q. Sir, on the first day of your evidence and this is at page 7148
10 of the transcript, you referred to something you called UN TV?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What does UN TV broadcast?
13 A. Of course I can mostly speak from the time when I was at the
14 United Nations as ambassador. It would tend to have sometimes
15 independent broadcasting including panels, but most critically, I believe
16 to what we have testified to, it would broadcast all the meetings of the
17 UN Security Council and the General Assembly.
18 Q. And when you say all the meetings, are we talking about the
19 public meetings or the private consultations you've discussed or both?
20 A. We are only speaking of public meetings, and I can only say all
21 to the extent that I am aware. Of course there may be situations that
22 I'm unaware of where that did not occur.
23 Q. So did you physically have to be in the either the Security
24 Council Chamber or the General Assembly Chamber to be keeping track of
25 the proceedings?
1 A. No, you did not. And frequently, I actually might keep track of
2 these proceedings from my offices, that is the BiH mission to the
3 United Nations.
4 Q. Turning to a different issue, sir, when I was asking you
5 questions at page 7149 of the transcript about the arms embargo and --
6 imposed by Resolution 713, you told us that Bosnia had been deemed to be
7 subject to it, and I neglected to ask if anyone else was also subject to
8 that order?
9 A. Yes, the entire territory of the former Yugoslavia ultimately was
10 deemed to be subject to it as it was a transitional situation. The first
11 reference was to Yugoslavia
12 application to the entire territory of the former Yugoslavia.
13 Q. Thank you. On another issue sir, or related issue, if I could
14 ask you to turn to the binder from 1993, I think will have tab 21 in it.
15 This is 65 ter 8820. Sorry, it's the very last document in that tab that
16 contains several other documents.
17 A. The Registrar is helping me here.
18 Q. Do you have the document in front of you now?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. It should be a document titled letter dated 22nd April, 1993 from
21 the "Charge d'affair of the Permanent Mission of Yugoslavia," is that the
22 right document, sir?
23 A. Yes, I have that.
24 Q. And yesterday in the context of discussing the fact that there
25 were sometimes calls for the lifting of the arms embargo, and reaction
1 from the FRY, is this an example of such a letter, sir?
2 A. Yes, it is. The letter refers, once again, an attempt was made,
3 obviously implying that it was numerous.
4 MS. BOLTON: If that could be tendered as the next exhibit,
5 please, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted into evidence. May it please be
7 given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become
9 Exhibit P2463.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 Madam Bolton.
12 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
13 Q. You also gave evidence yesterday, sir, and this was at page 31 of
14 the provisional transcript, that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia's
15 mission sometimes made written responses to the Special Rapporteur's
16 reports, and I wonder if Mr. Haider could assist, please, by giving you
17 the 1994 binder. It may be the same binder.
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. Should be tab E, please.
20 A. What I have in front of me is, in fact, the 5 August, 1994
21 report, "Commission on human rights."
22 Q. Sorry, the document I'm looking at as a title "Note Verbale,"
23 midway down the page, dated 28th July, 1994
24 THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] We have 8835 here. And that's the
25 5th, August, 1994.
1 MS. BOLTON:
2 Q. Okay. That's the date, and midway through the page, the first
3 page, sir?
4 A. Ms. Bolton you are now breaking up, I could not hear that very
6 Q. I'll try speaking closer to the microphone, is that of any
8 A. I believe it is. We are getting interference. That's like a --
9 not a buzz but it's like a beep, and it seems that it's coming from your
10 end, we've been able to ascertain. It's gone now.
11 Q. It's gone now?
12 A. Yeah, it seems to be gone. Thank you. If you don't mind
13 repeating your question, we did not hear you.
14 Q. I'm just waiting for the Registrar to finish with the binder?
15 THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] We are on 65 ter 08835,
16 Ms. Bolton.
17 MS. BOLTON: Are you on the first page of that document?
18 A. We were, and it's again Note Verbale.
19 Q. It's titled "Note Verbale," dated 28th July 1994
20 permanent mission of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And if you could turn the page, please.
23 A. Yes, I'm on page 2.
24 Q. And you will see at the top of the page there's another title,
25 and it should indicate comments of the government of the Federal Republic
1 of Yugoslavia
2 rights, I'm summarising now, submitted by Mr. Tadeusz Mazowiecki; is that
3 correct, sir?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And if you would -- first, is this an example of the kind of
6 document or written response that you were referring to in your testimony
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Looking at paragraph 1, there's an indication that they are
10 including or attaching as part of their comments --
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, at this time I'm going to object to
12 the Prosecution -- I'm getting phenomenal sound in my ears. I don't know
13 if anybody else got that.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are all there.
15 MS. BOLTON: Feedback, yes.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I hope that didn't happen at the New York end.
17 I'm going to object to the Prosecution reading this document. If there
18 is a question to be posed at this point, the Prosecution is describing
19 what the document is and the previous question that -- if this was an
20 example of the kinds of documents that Mr. Sacirbey had seen, I don't
21 know whether or not this is a way of avoiding some of the strictures of
22 the guide-lines with regard to guide-line 27 or not, whether there's some
23 other intent here with regard to what the Prosecution is doing. But at
24 this point, I would make the objection basically on the grounds of
25 leading and testifying.
1 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Your Honour, what I wish to do is to direct
2 the witness to a portion of the report, read the portion, and then I have
3 a question about the passage I'm going to be asking about and just
4 directing the witness to something that's written in the report.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: With that as an understanding, then I'll withdraw
6 my objection.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MS. BOLTON:
9 Q. Sir, what I was going to direct your attention to is that partway
10 down the first paragraph, the -- there's an indication that also attached
11 are the comments on the part of the report on Bosnia-Herzegovina. And it
12 says paragraphs 5 to 79 of the government of the Republic of Srpska
13 which I know I didn't pronounce correctly, and my question is, sorry,
14 I'll just have you confirm if you would, if you would turn to page 15 of
15 the document, there should be a section there which says, is titled:
16 Comments of the government of Srpska on aspects of - and I'm
17 summarising - the sixth periodic report. My question for you is whether
18 the Republic Srpska had the right to circulate documents to the Security
20 A. The government of the Republic of Srpska
21 and did not have the right to circulate any documents within the
22 United Nations. They may have obviously had the opportunity to
23 communicate with Mazowiecki and other officials of the United Nations on
24 the ground.
25 Q. Under the United Nations protocols, procedures, and rules, was
1 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia under any obligation to --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I apologise. I now cannot hear Ms. Bolton
4 through the earphones. I can hear Mr. Sacirbey through the earphones,
5 but I can't hear the questions as they are being made. I can read it,
6 but I can't hear it but there's a some kind of a disconnect. I don't
7 know if anybody else is having the same problem, and now I'm getting the
8 other lovely sound.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: My problem is of a different nature, I hear
10 Madam Bolton not with the earphones very loudly and I don't hear Mr.
11 Sacirbey at all.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: We seem to be having a technical conundrum. I
13 don't know if there is a way of fixing this or not.
14 MS. BOLTON: I suggest we break.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's take a short adjournment and see if the
16 technicians can help us.
17 Mr. Sacirbey can you say something? Let's see if we can hear
19 THE WITNESS: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,
20 and --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can hear you now. Although there's still the
22 background noise. Madam Bolton, can you say something.
23 THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] This is the Registrar, we don't
24 have any backgrounds noise at the moment.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, it looks like you've transferred your
1 problem to us which you had with the last two days, now we have the
2 background noise now.
3 THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] Sincerest apologies for that,
5 MS. BOLTON: A, B, C, D, E, F, G.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I hear you there with the background.
7 Mr. Guy-Smith.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could you continue your alphabet, please.
9 MS. BOLTON: I don't know the rest of.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could you do it again.
11 MS. BOLTON: A, B, C, D, E, F, no?
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't hear. Fortunately, I can read lips.
13 I've tried it at loud, soft. I've done all of that. Do you mind trying
14 one more time, my apology.
15 MS. BOLTON: Sure. We are testing 1, 2, 3, here on this end.
16 Nothing? Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey, we are having problems. Is there another
17 set of headphones, Mr. Guy-Smith, could try.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm happy to try that.
19 MS. BOLTON: I'm sure this is going to be a very interesting
20 transcript for someone to read where I'm reciting the alphabet. Any
21 luck? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. I should note that Mr. Harmon was having
22 some problems with his headphones and hearing Mr. Guy-Smith. I don't
23 know if that problem is resolved.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Now, I'm hearing one of the interpreters in the
25 background which is a gentleman, I believe, is speaking Serbian. But I
1 did not hear Ms. Bolton. This is somewhat like a Philip Glass
2 composition, I think. It's very abstract, but I guess there's some music
3 involved here. If you would be so kind again.
4 MS. BOLTON: Is that any better?
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Again please.
6 MS. BOLTON: Something coming through at all? Sorry, am I coming
7 through at all?
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm hearing your voice.
9 MS. BOLTON: Not through the head phones. I seldom have the
10 complaint, certainly not at home, that people can't hear me.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's try Mr. Sacirbey.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Microphone not activated] ... I'm lucky as it is
13 in that people can hear me at home, but here my voice drops.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's see if we can hear Mr. Sacirbey.
15 THE WITNESS: Give me the opportunity just to make sure the
16 pronunciation of my name is correct, which is Mr. Sacirbey. Think of
17 being shocked, Mr. Sacirbey.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sacirbey. Thank you very much, Mr. Sacirbey, my
19 apologies for mispronouncing it.
20 THE WITNESS: I take no offence.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. You are very kind. I can hear
22 him very clearly, and I don't have any background noise. I'm happy.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I can hear Mr. Sacirbey perfectly.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you are still lip reading Madam Bolton.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I'm still lip reading Ms. Bolton.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want to carry on lip reading?
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'll give it a go. I'll try and see if it works.
3 I'll try and see.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Madam Bolton, sorry about that
6 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Your Honour.
7 Q. Yes, thank you, sir. The question I was by asking was whether
8 under a United Nations rules, protocols, and procedures, whether the
9 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was under any obligation to include the
10 RS's comments in its response to the Special Rapporteur?
11 A. It was not.
12 Q. I'd like to go back to discussing the resolution we were
13 discussing at the end of yesterday's session, which was Resolution 819,
14 and you should find that in tab 15F of, I think, the same a binder.
15 THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] Could Ms. Bolton please repeat --
16 THE WITNESS: 819 of the Security Council. We did have it before
17 so ...
18 MS. BOLTON:
19 Q. Sorry, it may cause you confusion in that the front page, if you
20 will recall, is the report on Resolution 819, it's a letter of
21 transmittal, 65 ter -- sorry, now, it's Exhibit --
22 A. We have that. We have that, Ms. Bolton.
23 Q. And exhibit number is 2462, I believe. And it was, you'll
24 recall, the second page onward of that document. Okay. So the final
25 aspect I want to discuss with you, sir, is numbered paragraph 1 on page
1 3, and that's the part where the Security Council demands that all
2 parties and others concerned treat Srebrenica and its surroundings as a
3 safe area which should be free from any armed attack or any other hostile
4 act. I want to ask first who sponsored this resolution, if you recall,
5 or this aspect of the resolution, if you recall?
6 A. If I remember correctly, it had significant support including
7 from Ambassador Diego Arria, of Venezuela
8 United Nations, Jean Bernard Merrimee. I believe as would probably -- if
9 we had the resolution in front of us, we would see it had very wide
10 support at that time.
11 Q. When you are talking about support, is that the same as saying
12 that they sponsored it or proposed it?
13 A. Ms. Bolton, I am afraid I don't remember exactly the -- all the
14 countries that sponsored it, but I do remember there were many countries
15 that did, and that it certainly had very wide support, other resolutions,
16 of course, were more contentious.
17 Q. What was Bosnia-Herzegovina's position on this resolution?
18 A. We felt that -- we, that is the mission of Bosnia-Herzegovina and
19 under the instructions of the government in Sarajevo, believed that we
20 needed to do everything and anything that we could to stop the killing at
21 that time, to stop the attack upon the city, and we supported it
23 Q. You've told us that your thinking was that this would help, I
24 guess, stop the killing, and that is why you supported it, were there
25 other rationales advanced in the -- well, first, did you raise that issue
1 in the Security Council discussions, either the consultations or any
2 public discussions?
3 A. Yes, we did. Most importantly we raised the issue, of course, in
4 the letters that we forwarded to the president of the Security Council,
5 and in various informal meetings that we had with Security Council
6 members including the none-allying group, which Mr. Diego -- Ambassador
7 Diego Arria was a member of.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do apologise, Ms. Bolton, but I, perhaps, am
9 behind both you and Mr. Sacirbey with regard to the question, which is
10 the issue at hand being, the resolution itself or the killings that were
11 occurring. There are two potential issues that existed with regard to
12 the questions you asked. I'm not clear as to which issue you are
13 referring to.
14 MS. BOLTON: I'll clarify.
15 Q. My last question wasn't well worded, sir. You've told us what
16 your rationale was for being in favour of this resolution, and what I
17 intended to ask with my last question was whether you shared your
18 reasoning with the Security Council members?
19 A. Ms. Bolton, the concern about the safety and the condition of the
20 Srebrenica citizens and the other refugees in the area was the primary
21 concern, and I think it was, and I'm quite certain it was also the
22 concern of most of those who supported this resolution, and who, in fact,
23 were involved in the debate, as we call it, in the United Nations
24 regarding this resolution.
25 Q. Other than the rationale concerning the safety and condition of
1 the citizens of Srebrenica, were any other rationales advanced in the
2 Security Council in support of this resolution?
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: By who? The question, By who?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
5 MS. BOLTON: I'm going to answer my friend's question. My
6 question is open on purpose in that I'm asking if anyone was putting
7 forward any other rationale for this resolution?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I.e., members of the Security Council, I suppose.
9 MS. BOLTON: Yes, if any other rationales were advanced.
10 THE WITNESS: Ms. Bolton, I'm unaware of any other rationale that
11 rose to the level of anything similar to the first priority.
12 MS. BOLTON:
13 Q. Thank you, sir.
14 MS. BOLTON: Could I ask that we move into closed session,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
17 MS. BOLTON: Please.
18 [Private session]
11 Page 7306 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 MS. BOLTON:
14 Q. One of the issues that we were discussing in our conversation
15 yesterday was the fact that there had been a delay of voting on a
16 proposed resolution to strengthen sanctions, and yesterday, you
17 identified for us that draft resolution. My question is, was there
18 eventually a vote held with respect to resolution to strengthen sanctions
19 against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
20 A. Yes, there was.
21 Q. Could I ask you to turn to the next exhibit in your binder, which
22 should be tab H, and that's Prosecution Exhibit 209, Resolution 820. Do
23 you have that document before you, sir?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. At the bottom of the first page, sir, there is a paragraph that
1 begins with the words:
2 "Expressing its condemnation of all the activities carried out in
3 violation of Resolutions 757 (1992) and 787 (1992), between the territory
4 of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Serbian Montenegro
5 controlled areas in the Republic of Croatia
6 and Herzegovina
7 And then continuing on to -- if you turn the page, we are
8 followed by a reference on the next page at paragraph 3 to the fact that
9 there has been a refusal by the Bosnian Serb party to accept an agreement
10 on interim arrangements and the provisional provincial map. What is that
11 agreement and provisional provincial map a reference to?
12 A. The Vance-Owen Peace Plan.
13 Q. The --
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, before you go any further, just for
15 purposes of the record, it's a refusal by the Bosnian Serb party to
16 accept not "an" but "the," in its, initial caps, Agreement on; initial
17 cap, Interim; initial cap, Arrangements. So it's identifying a very
18 specific and particular document, which doesn't show up in the record.
19 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. My friend has correctly read out the
21 Q. We'll call it the meat of the resolution seems to start on
22 paragraph B on page 3, which it preceded by the words, "Determined to
23 strengthen the implementation of the measures imposed by its earlier
24 relevant resolutions." And then there's a whole series of paragraphs
25 that followed. The contents of the actual sanctions that are imposed, I
1 don't wish to go into any great detail, but can you just tell us very
2 briefly first, who are they aimed at?
3 A. They are aimed at ... [Overlapping speakers]
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: If ever there was an ... [Overlapping speakers]
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: If ever there was an example of best evidence,
7 this certainly is one. You have the resolution before you. The resident
8 motion is clear on its face. There's no need for the witness to tell us
9 what the the resolution says, to interpret it, or to read or become a
10 reader with regard to its impact, its purpose, or the object of the
11 sanctions contained therein.
12 MS. BOLTON: That's fine, Your Honour. I can move on to my next
14 Q. Could you turn to paragraph 31, sir.
15 A. I'm there.
16 Q. Before you go -- we go on to paragraph 31, why was there a need
17 to strengthen the sanctions?
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, excuse me, objection. This particular --
19 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, I will re-word the question.
20 Q. Based on the discussions that you were privy to, are you able to
21 indicate what was discussed in terms of the perceived need to strengthen
22 the sanctions?
23 A. The failure --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: This is now calling for a particular
1 interpretation --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I don't hear you now, Mr. Guy-Smith.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Can you hear me now?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can hear you now.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Is that coming through the microphone,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, you are coming directly.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm coming directly. Okay. Well, I have an
9 objection, and my objection is that this is now calling for a particular
10 interpretation by the witness as to the perceived need. The witness can
11 testify as to facts, if there are facts that he is aware of. But now we
12 are getting into an interpretation of discussions as opposed to the facts
13 that were discussed, and he is, therefore, rendering an opinion. He has
14 not been qualified for those purposes, and it is inappropriate for him to
15 testify in that fashion.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
17 MS. BOLTON: Well, I was an eye-witness to the discussions,
18 Your Honour, and I'm asking him to tell us what was proposed, what were
19 the context of those discussions.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess, Madam Bolton, the objection is the use of
21 the word -- is against the use of the word perceived. Maybe if the
22 question was: Based on the discussions that you were privy to, are you
23 able to indicate what was discussed in terms of the need to strengthen
24 the sanctions?
25 MS. BOLTON:
1 Q. Could you answer His Honour's question, Mr. Sacirbey, please.
2 A. Yes, Your Honour, there was undoubtedly a consensus that the Pale
3 Serbs had, in fact, failed to accept the peace agreement. There was a
4 discussion, to what extent either as a direct party or a direct party
6 agreement. A direct party in the sense that they, in fact, would have
7 actually been there to directly encourage, if you would, or direct the
8 Pale Serbs to sign, indirect to the extent that they continued to support
9 the Pale Serbs in view of their failure to accept what was then perceived
10 as a huge chance for peace.
11 Q. And looking at the text of paragraph 31, sir, under what
12 circumstance did you understand the measures against Federal Republic
14 A. At such time that Belgrade
15 peace plan.
16 MS. BOLTON: I see it is 3.30, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: We still have four minutes.
18 MS. BOLTON: I'm done with this document and about to move on to
19 another one, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which will take you beyond the four minutes.
21 MS. BOLTON: Yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 4.00. Court
24 --- Recess taken at 3.27 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
2 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. I think we've worked out our technical
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
5 MS. BOLTON:
6 Q. Sir, if we could ask you to turn in you binder to tab 15IJ,
7 please. And this is --
8 A. We are there, Ms. Bolton.
9 Q. This is exhibit already -- Defence Exhibit 31 in these
10 proceedings. You should have before you Resolution 821, Exhibit 31.
11 A. Yes, I have that in front of me.
12 Q. Yes, sir, this is resolution, I'll direct you to a couple of
13 passages. It recalls on the first page Resolutions 757, which was the
14 resolution and -- sorry, Resolution 777, which then goes on to say was
15 the resolution that decided that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,
16 Serbia Montenegro, should apply for membership in the United Nations and
17 that it shall not participate in the work of the General Assembly.
18 And then turning the page, this resolution goes on at numbered
19 paragraph 1 to reaffirm that principle that it can't continue
20 automatically the membership of the Socialist Federal Republic
21 portion I want to ask you about is that it then goes on it recommend that
22 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia not participate in the work of the
23 Economic and Social Council. What is the work of the Economic and Social
25 A. It is one of the more important bodies of the United Nations. It
1 relates to economic, social, and, frankly, sometimes also political
2 considerations; and, at that time, there was a issue as to whether or not
3 that was covered under Resolution 777.
4 Q. And how would it affect a state to be excluded from the work of
5 the Economic and Social Council?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, that is outside of the ken of this
8 particular witness's testimony. He is not an expert. He a fact witness.
9 He is now being asked to comment on how something would effect the state,
10 which requires a particular kind of expertise and opinion -- improper
11 opinion testimony.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
13 MS. BOLTON: I'm asking for the witness to clarify. I can reword
14 it. What advantages, based on his observations and the knowledge of the
15 work that is done by the Economic and Social Council, there may be to
16 having an ability to participate in that work. That's not asking for an
17 opinion, Your Honour.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's a thinly disguised attempt to not ask for an
19 opinion, but it's still asking for an opinion. If it says, What
20 advantages, you know, that makes -- there's a determination made by the
21 witness as to what is an advantage, as to what is not. It's also --
22 there's -- well, I'll stop there for a minutes, because I know you don't
23 like it when I sequentially engage in objections, I'm going to stop for a
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: What I don't understand, Mr. Guy-Smith, is this is
1 based on observations and knowledge of the work of this commission or
2 council because he been working -- I suppose because he has been working
3 closely with it.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't think we've had -- but then we have a
5 lack of foundation.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
7 MS. BOLTON:
8 Q. Are you familiar with the work that is done by the Economic and
9 Social Council, sir?
10 A. Yes, I am.
11 Q. Did you have the opportunity while you worked there to -- no,
12 that's my foundation question, Your Honour. I don't intend to ask
13 another one.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
15 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
16 Q. Then, sir, based on your familiarity with the work that's done,
17 your observations, what advantages -- my friend.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Same objection. Based upon his familiarity, what
20 advantages requires an opinion on his part.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: But it also --
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: If he is being qualified as an expert on the
23 functions of the United Nations, if that is what is being sought here,
24 then let's pronounce that as what is going on. If that's not what is
25 going on, then he shouldn't be answering these kinds of questions. And
1 so far, I've allowed a fair amount to go on, but we've been pretty far
3 THE WITNESS: You were, maybe I can help --
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, there's an objection pending.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey. Mr. Sacirbey, when an
6 objection is being dealt with by the Court, you, as a witness, are
7 supposed to keep quiet until the objection is resolved. And, then of
8 course, counsel will direct himself or herself to you.
9 Madam Bolton, I don't know whether you want to lay further
10 foundations for this question that you want to raise or you want to deal
11 with it some other way. It's up to you.
12 MS. BOLTON:
13 Q. Maybe you could give us some examples of the kind of work that
14 the Economic and Social Council does?
15 A. Ms. Bolton, I hope I will be responsive. Within the United
16 Nations work, there are various groupings, including something called the
17 Eastern European Group, and the Eastern European Group will, then in
18 fact, have several of its member that will be privileged to directly
19 participate, that is to be a member of the Economic and Social Council.
20 Some other reasons that this resolution, in fact, came up that
21 there was some understanding that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
22 might even, in fact, become a candidate for the Economic and Social
23 Council. There was also, of course, a view that, in fact, it would
24 participate in other ways in the work of the Economic and Social Council,
25 and, in fact, that this was already prohibited under Resolution 777; but
1 to the extent that that was lacking in clarity, and there was -- there
2 was a view that Resolution 777 was intentionally ambiguous that, in fact,
3 this particular point was to drive that ambiguity out of the question.
4 So that, in fact, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia would not be able to
5 participate in all the economic -- particularly economic and other social
6 political considerations of the work of the work of ECOSOC Council.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Sacirbey - I see Mr. Guy-Smith is on his
8 feet - but, yes, you are right, you were not responsive to the question.
9 The question was: Could you give some examples of the work that the
10 Economic and Social Council does. If you can just tabulate two, three,
11 four, or whatever number that you can remember of the kind of things that
12 it provided or the work that it did. But before you do so,
13 Mr. Guy-Smith.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Now, Your Honour has guided the witness.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just don't hear you.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry. I said, Now, Your Honour, Your Honour
17 has guided the witness, I was going to be making a different kind of
18 suggestion, but I'm satisfied and there's no reason to go any further.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 Okay, Mr. Sacirbey.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. As an example, the issue might
22 have to deal with regional economic concerns. That is, some issues of
23 development. Development was a particularly big issue within the
24 Economic and Social Council. That is economic development or something
25 related to economic development. It may also have sometimes to do with
1 the condition of particular population groups. I believe those are
2 probably the best examples that I can provide right now.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Sacirbey.
4 Yes, Madam Bolton
5 MS. BOLTON:
6 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no more questions on that exhibit,
7 Your Honour. I did neglect earlier in the proceedings we were discussing
8 65 ter 8835, and I apparently neglected to ask that it be tendered as an
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: 8835?
11 MS. BOLTON: Yes, this was before the break, early on, and it was
12 the Note Verbale we were discussing from the permanent mission of the
13 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. 65 ter 8835, madam, is
15 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2464, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
18 MS. BOLTON:
19 Q. Sir, sorry for the interruption, if you could turn now, please,
20 to tab 15K, you should have the full report of the Security Council
21 mission. The full report is 65 ter 5003 of the, sorry, Security Council
22 mission, pursuant to Resolution 819. Do you have that document, sir?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. I want to direct you to certain passages of this document, sir.
25 If you could turn to page 5.
1 A. I believe I'm there.
2 Q. Before I go too far, I should ask what the mandate of this
3 mission was?
4 A. It was one that, in fact, was given by the United Nations
5 Security Council as a whole to obviously go to the specific locations
6 within Bosnia
7 visit Zagreb
9 whole and potentially provide recommendations.
10 Q. Okay. And the composition of the mission, who was part of the
12 A. I believe we had the list from before --
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour. We seem to be falling
14 back into the same problems again here. The document has been admitted.
15 The evidence of who was complemented -- complements the mission is in the
16 document. Best evidence is before us. There is no purpose in having
17 Mr. Sacirbey be a reader unless it's for the purpose of attempting to
18 enhance his credibility. But otherwise, it is absolutely irrelevant for
19 this particular witness to be engaging in this particular function.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess it's only repetitive, not irrelevant. It
21 is Exhibit P2462, you are aware, madam? 65 ter 5003.
22 MS. BOLTON: I am sorry, you are right. Yes, thank you,
23 Your Honour. That's the correct document. In terms of my friend's
24 objection, I'm trying to not to lead the witness because when I put to
25 him the names of the witness, or I refer the witness to it, he has been
1 objecting on the basis that I'm leading, and if I don't, he is objecting
2 on the basis that it's the best evidence. So I can't win one way or
3 another, but I'll now go to my second way of dealing with it which is to
4 suggest that the list of people who were part of the mission can be found
5 on the first page of this document.
6 Q. Would you agree with that Mr. Sacirbey?
7 A. Yes, I would, Ms. Bolton.
8 Q. One of the members was from Russia?
9 A. That is correct. I actually should point out for the Court that
10 I actually flew with this mission to Zagreb itself.
11 Q. In terms of political loyalties or alliances in the Security
12 Council, are you able to comment on where Russia's loyalties typically
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. --
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think that question is highly improper.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't hear you, Mr. Guy-Smith. Is there
17 something wrong with my connection to Mr. Guy-Smith's microphone?
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I said, I believe that the question is highly
19 improper, but --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you going to tell us why it's improper.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, it calls for an opinion for which there is
22 no foundation. It involves a form of speculation for which there is no
23 foundation, and it takes it -- it places in question an entire can of
24 play of considerations for which this witness has no information we've
25 been presently told about as of yet.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the question is are you able to comment on
2 where Russia
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Loyalties to what? Loyalties to --
4 MS. BOLTON: I can rephrase.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: She's going to rephrase.
6 MS. BOLTON:
7 Q. Sir, based on your observations of dealings with the Security
8 Council, both the public meetings and your knowledge of the informal
9 consultations that took place, when matters pertaining to the conflict in
11 whose views?
12 A. Well, I believe --
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. Excuse me. Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.
14 That assumes, among other things, facts that are not in evidence
15 with regard to views to be taken. It seems to me that what is occurring
16 now is Mr. Sacirbey is being used by the Prosecution as an interpreter of
17 the debate of the conflict between 1992 and 1995, which is not an
18 appropriate function for this particular witness.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just say that as I understand ...
20 [Microphone not activated].
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not on the microphone. Sorry, can I repeat
23 myself? Rather let me ask you, Madam Bolton, to respond to that
24 objection. Maybe --
25 MS. BOLTON: I'm asking the witness for his observations. He is
1 a fact witness. I'm not asking him to interpret anything. I'm asking
2 him to tell us when issues arose, who did -- what views did Russia
3 and how did those compare to the views taken or expressed by other
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are you talking about a specific topic that
6 was being discussed, specific meeting, specific incident?
7 MS. BOLTON: No, I'm asking globally what matters. My questions
8 were to global matters pertaining as the conflict in Bosnia arose. And
9 my question was: "Who did Russia
10 whose views?"
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the objection is overruled.
12 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
13 Q. Could you answer my question, please?
14 A. Yes, Ms. Bolton. The delegation, first of all, I believe, was
15 representative of the full spectrum, and second of all --
16 MS. BOLTON: I'm not hearing anything. Was I the only person
17 that couldn't hear anything.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I could hear.
19 MS. BOLTON: Okay.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Sacirbey, if you could start again.
21 Madam Bolton didn't hear you.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Again, in effort to be responsive, I believe
23 the delegation represented a spectrum of sympathies. And number two,
25 authority -- especially as it applied to the issue of sanctions.
1 MS. BOLTON:
2 Q. If I could ask you to turn the page again then, sir, to where we
3 were to page 5. There's a heading "Situation on the ground," a
4 subheading "Srebrenica," and I want to read a few passages or refer you
5 to a couple of passages. And then have some questions for you, okay?
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. Looking first, sir, at paragraph 7, reads:
8 "Srebrenica, which used to be a spa resort today has a population
9 of approximately 20 to 28.000 people, of whom between 8.000 and 10.000
10 are locals. The rest are displaced persons from surrounding villages
11 that were destroyed by Serbs. The whole enclave today holds 70.000
13 And then continuing at paragraph 12:
14 "Before the agreement of 18 April, 1993, the town had been under
15 intense shelling. It was surrounded and totally isolated. The situation
16 forced the local Srebrenica authorities to agree to a settlement by which
17 only the Muslim side was to disarm under the supervision of UNPROFOR.
18 That agreement was subsequently concluded by the Bosnian commander,
19 General Halilovic at Sarajevo
20 Continuing at paragraph 14:
21 "The council should note that when it was discussing Resolution
22 819 (1993 ), it did not know that negotiations involving the force
23 commander of UNPROFOR had been taking place and that UNPROFOR had
24 participated actively in the drafting and in the process of convincing
25 the Bosnian commander to sign the agreement. The alternative could have
1 been a massacre of 25.000 people."
2 Continuing at paragraph 16:
3 "Srebrenica arrangement cannot be a model but should inspire
4 action by the Security Council to prevent the fall of further enclaves
5 and territories such as Gorazde, Zepa, and Tuzla, which demands immediate
6 action. We know enough today about the conditions prevailing in these
7 towns, notwithstanding Dr. Karadzic's assurance to the mission that his
8 forces would not attack Gorazde or Tuzla."
9 Finally continuing at paragraph 17:
10 "There's no doubt that had this agreement not been reached, most
11 probably a massacre would have taken place..."
12 My first question for you, sir, is: Are the facts that I've read
13 to you consistent with your understanding, firstly, of the agreement --
14 sorry, let me rephrase. Were you aware of this agreement concluded by
15 General Halilovic?
16 A. Only subsequent to the vote of the Security Council. We knew
17 there were discussions going at different levels, Ms. Bolton.
18 Q. And could you tell me, in terms of this report, to whom -- who
19 would have received copies of this report, sir, within the UN context?
20 A. I believe this document was made a document of the Security
21 Council, and, therefore, it would have been, once again, available it to
22 all member states of the United Nations as well as the Federal Republic
23 of Yugoslavia
24 Q. Did anyone from your mission or to your knowledge, your
25 government, have any influence over the contents of this report?
1 A. I don't believe that would be accurate. As I said, I flew with
2 the mission to Zagreb
3 back on its own and on authored this report on its own without my input.
4 Q. How many missions had the Security Council established of this
5 nature prior to this one?
6 A. This was a rather unprecedented situation, and in my experience,
7 it was the first one that I had seen at that time, in my experience.
8 Q. Can you comment on how much attention this report was given
9 within the UN context, either the General Assembly, the Security Council,
10 or even in formal discussions between countries?
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Once again the wide language of the question is
12 what causes me concern: How many attention, as compared to what? There
13 are no standards that allow for an answer upon which this Trial Chamber
14 can make a reasoned decision in terms of what is being discussed. How
15 much attention? It's a meaningless question.
16 MS. BOLTON: I'll rephrase.
17 Q. Was this report the subjects of discussions, sir, in the UN
19 A. Yes, it was, Ms. Bolton. And it continued to be for several
20 weeks and months.
21 Q. And can you comment on whether there was any press coverage of
22 this report?
23 A. Yes, there was, Ms. Bolton.
24 Q. How long was the press coverage for?
25 A. It was extensive and for several days at least. The debate on
1 the issue of safe areas, as you know, continued for several months.
2 Actually, I believe for at least another month.
3 MS. BOLTON: Brief indulgence.
4 Q. I'm going to turn to a separate topic now, sir. I'd like you to
5 look at tabs -- first tab L in your binder. And this is 65 ter 8823, I
7 A. Yes, I have that in front of me.
8 Q. And that should be a letter dated the 4th of May, 1993, from the
9 permanent representative of Bosnia
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. And it purports, at the bottom, to be signed by yourself. Can
12 you confirm that this is a document you authored?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And just generally related to what was happening in, is it Zepa,
15 Jepa, I know I'm not pronouncing it correctly.
16 A. There should be, like, a little sign indicating Zepa.
17 Q. And sorry, is that correct, that's the subject matter of the
19 A. That's correct.
20 MS. BOLTON: If that could be tendered as the next exhibit,
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Its admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2465, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 MS. BOLTON:
2 Q. If you would turn to the next tab in your binder, sir, you should
3 have 65 ter 8825. Do you have a document there, sir, 5th May, 1993?
4 Another letter that purports to have been authored by yourself to the
5 Security Council?
6 A. Yes, I have that in front of me and that is an authentic copy.
7 MS. BOLTON: If I could have that tendered as the next exhibit,
8 please, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Its admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2466.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.
13 MS. BOLTON:
14 Q. If you would turn, please, to the next tab, sir. Tab NO should
15 have 65 ter 8826.
16 A. I have that in front of me, Ms. Bolton.
17 Q. And this is another letter from yourself to the Security Council
18 dated the 6th May, 1993; is that correct?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Is this an authentic copy?
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 MS. BOLTON: Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,
23 Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Its admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
1 THE REGISTRAR: The document will become Exhibit P2467,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
4 Yes, Madam Bolton
5 MS. BOLTON:
6 Q. If you could turn to tab R, please, in that same sequence. You
7 should have 65 ter 8829 in front of you.
8 A. Yes, I have that in front of me.
9 Q. And a letter dated 7th May, 1993
10 authored this document?
11 A. Yes, I have.
12 Q. In the second paragraph of this document, there's an allegation
13 that Serbian artillery units arrived yesterday from two towns and took up
14 positions on hills around Zepa. In what republic or what country are
15 those two towns located?
16 A. To be very clear, we were describing Serbian artillery units that
17 were coming from the region. I cannot confirm to you that, in fact,
18 those were either coming directly from Bosnia or from Serbia
19 Zepa, itself, is on the border of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: On which side of the border?
21 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, to try to remember this situation at
22 that time, we were not always sure if, in fact, they had come from one or
23 the other side of the border. We would be very specific --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt. May I interrupt you. The
25 question was --
1 THE WITNESS: Please, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question was: On which side of the border was
4 THE WITNESS: Zepa is on the side of the border of
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MS. BOLTON: Could that be tendered as the next exhibit, please,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2468, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MS. BOLTON:
14 Q. Could I ask you, sir, to turn to tab, should be, 10E - sorry -
15 which is in evidence as Exhibit P2443, should be the report of the
16 Special Rapporteur from the 5th May, 1993.
17 THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] Ms. Bolton, please confirm the 65
18 ter number, please.
19 MS. BOLTON: 5699.
20 Q. Sorry, have we located that document or --
21 A. I believe we have. That's the report of the Economic and Social
22 Council, Commission on Human Rights.
23 Q. Okay. We've already described this document as having been one
24 of the reports authored by the Special Rapporteur, and if I could ask you
25 turn to paragraph 87.
1 A. Yes, I have that.
2 Q. We have there an indication that:
3 "... massive and repeated violations of the Geneva Convention of
4 1949 were perpetrated in recent combat in Eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina
5 They were carried out by Serb forces in Srpska, Konjevic Polje, and
6 Srebrenica, in attacking and ambushing civilians attempting to flee their
7 encirclement, in attacking the villages themselves, in refusing to allow
8 humanitarian aid to enter, and in refusing to allow the evacuation of the
9 wounded, and in attempting to link the above issues to the independent
10 question of freedom of movement for Serbs in Tuzla."
11 And then referring you quickly to paragraph 94C. We have a
12 recommendation that the safe area concept be expanded and applied to
13 other areas of Bosnia
14 immediately be the case with Gorazde and Zepa.
15 My question is, whether that recommendation was discussed at the
16 United Nations Security Council.
17 A. Yes, it was, as some of these enclave that are mentioned here
18 actually did fall during that period of time, and the refugees then were
19 concentrated in Srebrenica, in particular, and Gorazde and Zepa to some
21 Q. Can you tell me what the -- Bosnia
22 recommendation of expansion of the concept of safe areas?
23 A. Actually, at this point in time, we took a contrary view. We
24 believed that if, in fact, only certain sections of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
25 I'm saying we, let me emphasise again for the Court's benefit, this was
1 the view of the government of President Izetbegovic, who communicated to
2 me, as well as the mission of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that the expansion of
3 the safe-area concept to some, but not the whole territory of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, would, by definition, then leave parts of the country
5 as being unsafe areas and somehow open to continuing attack and abuses.
6 We felt that there needed to be now a comprehensive resolution regarding
7 not only, of course, peace but particularly that moment, the safety of
8 the population.
9 The -- ultimately the designation of just some areas, safe areas,
10 as I said, would leave others as being, in effect, unsafe.
11 Q. Not withstanding your opposition was the Special Rapporteur's
12 recommendation acted upon by the Security Council?
13 A. The Security Council did eventually adopt a resolution with six
14 designated safe areas, and we then proceeded, that is the government of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Presidency, proceeded to request that, in
16 fact, those methods of ensuring that these are safe areas be firmly
17 outlined; and that, in fact, this would be something more than just a
18 symbolic declaration.
19 Q. Did you ever succeed in getting a firm outline of what those
20 methods would be?
21 A. That continued to be a rather dynamic issue. Eventually, NATO
22 was called upon to declare these areas also as protected zones. And to
23 the extent that, in fact, NATO would engage in protecting the civilian
24 population, or, ultimately, as some said, it was only limited to the UN
25 forces within, again that was a rather dynamic discussion.
1 Q. We'll come back to that issue then, sir. With respect to the
2 fact, you said, that there was eventually adoption of resolution
3 declaring safe areas, can I call your attention, please, to tab 15, I
4 think it's P, which is already in evidence in these proceedings as
5 Exhibit P212, should be a copy of Resolution 824. Could you work off the
6 electronic copy? Is that e-court visible enough to you, sir?
7 A. It was yesterday, maybe we can try that. According to my
8 colleague, the Registrar here, it stops at M. We don't have P in our
10 Q. I thought we just dealt with R in that same tab?
11 A. I will endeavour to review what is on screen, and I'll let the
12 Registrar take his time to evaluate what is going on with the
13 documents --
14 Q. Thank you.
15 A. -- with the tabs. I cannot see that yet. It's just too far
16 away, and I can try to move closer to the screen. Oh, here.
17 Q. Let me tell you the issue I'm interested in. It may be something
18 you don't need to refer to the document to answer.
19 The resolution --
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Ms. Bolton, if it's of any help and you wish to
21 read something to him because of the situation, I have absolutely no
23 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
24 Q. What I'm interested in, sir, is that the resolution declared at
25 paragraph 3, the capital city of --
1 A. We believe -- Ms. Bolton, we believe we have that. Is this tab
2 15, it's Resolution 824, 6 May, 1993
3 Q. Yes, yes.
4 A. Okay, we have that here. Thank you.
5 Q. Just looking at numbered paragraph 3, we have description of the
6 cities that are being designated as safe areas, and those cities are:
8 been discussing what was happening in four of those cities, and I'm
9 wondering if you could comment on the inclusion of Sarajevo and Bihac as
10 safe areas? Could you tell us what, first, was going on in Sarajevo
11 historically at that time?
12 A. Sarajevo
13 well, actually, at that time, more than a year. It had been denied
14 essential necessities of life, that is from food and water and medicines,
15 and had been under intense shelling and sniping. The civilian
16 population, in particular itself, had been under attack. Bihac is in the
17 north-west part of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is a very significant
18 town, and it had been also surrounded, besieged from several directions,
19 including from the so-termed Croatian Serbs, or the Serbs of the Krajina
20 region of Croatia
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The conditions were quite similar to those in
23 action directed at the population.
24 Q. Can you just clarify by what you meant when you said it was a
25 significant town?
1 A. At least 100.000 population. And I believe that was inflated by,
2 again, a large number of refugees coming from what is called the Krajina
3 region of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which by then had been largely ethnically
4 cleansed of its non-Serb population.
5 Q. Okay. I want to turn, if I could, please, your attention to the
6 contents of tab 17 in that same binder. The first document there should
7 be 65 ter 8830, a letter from 1st June, 1993.
8 A. Yes, I have this.
9 Q. The resolution we were just dealing with was Resolution 824 from
10 the 6th May, 1993. Reviewing the text you have in front of you, and, of
11 course, any independent memory you have, did you recall whether the
12 declaration of those six cities as safe areas brought an end to attacks
13 by the Serb forces in Bosnia
14 A. It did not.
15 Q. Can you confirm that you authored the letter that's before you,
17 A. Yes, I can.
18 Q. The second page of that correspondence is an annex, that purports
19 to be a letter from President Izetbegovic. Is that who authored this
20 letter, sir?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 MS. BOLTON: If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's so marked. May it please be given an exhibit
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become
1 Exhibit P2469.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 Yes, Madam Bolton
4 MS. BOLTON:
5 Q. Before we leave this letter, sir, there is an indication by -- in
6 this letter at paragraph 1 that an allegation that the Bosnian Serb
7 forces were reinforced by forces from the Republic of Serbia
8 have any recollection of where that information came from?
9 A. This information came from President Alija Izetbegovic. As to
10 his sources, I frankly do not recall that.
11 Q. If you could look at the next document in that same tab, sir. It
12 should be 65 ter 8831. A letter from the 2nd of June, 1993, and this one
13 authored from yourself?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And here you are indicating that you've received an update
16 directly from Gorazde once again, then you set out what is happening.
17 How would you receive information directly from Gorazde at that time?
18 A. It was possible for the residents and/or the leadership, that is
19 political and/or military leadership, to try to contact us either via
20 telephone or short-wave that would connects into telephone. When I say
21 telephone, I believe in most instances it, in fact, was satellite
22 telephone. I know that they were both -- that is both telephone
23 connections and some short-wave connections.
24 And the contacts were made to my mission, which means that at
25 some times I was actually receiving that information directly, or members
1 of my staff were receiving that information directly.
2 MS. BOLTON: And finally -- if that could be moved, sorry,
3 Your Honour, as the next exhibit.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2470.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.
8 MS. BOLTON:
9 Q. Final document on that tab should be 65 ter 8832, sir, should be
10 a letter from the 2nd of June, 1993 from yourself attaching a letter from
11 the president?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. And can you just confirm that that is a true copy of the original
15 A. Yes, I can.
16 MS. BOLTON: If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please,
17 Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted into evidence. May it please be
19 given an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2471.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
22 MS. BOLTON:
23 Q. With respect to the letters we've been dealing with, certainly
24 the first and second letter, actually all three, you asked that they be
25 circulated as a document of the Security Council. To the best of your
1 knowledge were they circulated?
2 A. Yes, they were, Ms. Bolton.
3 MS. BOLTON: If we could turn to tab 18, please.
4 Q. You should have 65 ter 2184 in front of you, UN Resolution 836.
5 A. Yes, I have that.
6 Q. We've been dealing with the question or the fact that despite the
7 previous declaration of certain areas as safe areas, you've told us
8 attacks continued, and you've documented some of those through letters.
9 And you've also told us that there was a dynamic situation with respect
10 to what a safe area was.
11 Did Resolution 836 clarify to any extent what the UN response was
12 going to be to attacks on the safe area?
13 A. Yes, if I may just correct; one, I think we all had a pretty good
14 idea what a safe area was supposed to be. The question was: What were
15 the mechanisms by which that would be ensured.
16 Q. Did this resolution address that issue at all?
17 A. Yes, it did.
18 Q. Looking at paragraphs 9 and 10, there is discussion in paragraph
19 9 to authorisation for UNPROFOR carrying out its mandate to act in
20 self-defence or acting in self-defence to take the necessary measures,
21 including the use of force, in reply to bombardments against the safe
22 areas. Then at paragraph 10, a reference to member states acting
23 nationally or through region organisations authorizing them to take all
24 necessary measures through the use of air power to support UNPROFOR.
25 The reference to regional organisation, was there any specific
1 organisation or organisations that were contemplated at the time this
2 resolution was passed?
3 A. Clearly NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
4 Q. And from the perspective of your government, based on the wording
5 of this resolution, what were you expecting UNPROFOR and NATO would do if
6 attacks continued on safe areas?
7 A. With the indulgence of the Court --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey. Yes, Mr Guy-Smith.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: By virtue of some of the testimony we've already
10 heard during this trial, I would appreciate it --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give us a reference.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would appreciate it if the question asked was
13 not compounds with regard to what UNPROFOR and NATO would do because we
14 have heard from various members of UNPROFOR that their duties and
15 responsibilities were distinct from those of NATO.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
17 MS. BOLTON: I'm actually asking a separate question, which is
18 what his country's expectations were, which is independent of what
19 representatives of UNPROFOR may have testified to in these proceedings as
20 to their understanding of their obligations.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well. If once again I would ask that the
22 question asked not include both organisations.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Split them.
24 MS. BOLTON:
25 Q. If you could comment on -- if you can comment on those
1 organisations separately?
2 A. At least as the situation evolved, there was what was called a
3 dual-key approach. That, in fact, these two institutions would act in
4 conjunction to an attack upon the safe area. The bigger question,
5 frankly, was under paragraph 9: What did it mean under self-defence.
6 And our major focus was that, in fact, an attack upon the population, in
7 the safe area itself, would trigger response from UNPROFOR and NATO at
8 that time.
9 The two institutions, in fact, that is the UN protection force
10 and NATO, were supposed to act in conjunction, and sometimes that lack of
11 coordination or maybe lack of shared views on the matter, was the one
12 that created the most difficulty in the context of this resolution.
13 Q. You said that your position was that acting in self-defence
14 included an attack on the population.
15 A. That is correct, Ms. Bolton.
16 Q. Was that view universally held or only held by
18 A. It was not a universal position. At some point in time, the
19 mandate was drawn so narrowly that, in fact, the United Nations
20 Protection Force, itself, would have to say that it was under attack in
21 order to trigger the first key and then the seconds key. The first key
22 being the UN Commanders key; the second key being the NATO Commanders
24 Q. Thank you, sir.
25 A. Thank you.
1 Q. We talked earlier about the fact that -- or some of the rationale
2 that was advanced in terms of the declaration of Srebrenica as a safe
3 area. Was the rationale that was advanced for the declaration of these
4 other five cities or towns any different than what had applied to
6 A. In only matters of urgency and time.
7 MS. BOLTON: If I could have -- I think that's not yet an exhibit
8 in these proceedings. Yes, if that could be marked as the next exhibit,
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 2184 is admitted. May it please be given
11 an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2472.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 Yes, Madam Bolton
15 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
16 Q. Sir, if you could turn to tab 19 in the binder. You should have
17 Resolution 838, which is 65 ter 2183, resolution dated the 10th of June,
18 1993, from the Security Council?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. I am interested in the second page primarily of this resolution.
21 There is a paragraph that starts with the words "bearing in mind,"
22 reference says: Resolution 757, concerning the prevention by all states
23 of imports into their territories of all commodities and products
24 originating in or exported from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; and a
25 further reference to paragraph 12 of Resolution 820 concerning
1 transshipment; and then numbered paragraph 1 indicates that the
2 Secretary-General is being requested to provide a report on options for
3 the deployment of international observers to monitor effectively the
4 implementation of the Security Council resolutions.
5 Was there any information available to the Security Council that
6 you were privy to -- sorry, what information that you were privy to led
7 to the conclusion or the recommendation that there was a need for
8 deployment of international observers to monitor the compliance with the
9 Security Council resolutions.
10 A. Actually already within the London Conference of August of 1992,
11 there was a call for the deployment of what, here, is called monitors.
12 Actually Bosnia
13 the border.
14 Subsequent to that time-frame, there was consistent information
15 that the border, in fact, was being violated, in particular by men and
16 military goods, that is military personnel and goods. And, as I believe,
17 in one of your brief documents, there is -- they had also noted the
18 reports of Mr. Garakan [phoen] who, was the Secretary-General
19 representative on the issue, and who would issue reports to Security
20 Council members. We would sometimes get also -- we would also receive
21 those reports. And if we did not receive them directly, then they would
22 be conveyed to us by member states of the Security Council who would then
23 brief us outside in the UN Security Council anti-Chamber.
24 Finally, there was also, of course, discussion of these points
25 throughout the whole conflict through the sanctions committee of the
1 Security Council.
2 Q. Just for clarification, you said in your answer that there were
3 reports of Mr. Garakan on the issue, and what issue were you referring
5 A. The issue as a whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Those reports would
6 also include reports by the Secretary-General, generally emanating from
7 the -- presumably emanating from the sources on the ground. With respect
8 to any element of the mandate of the United Nations in Bosnian,
9 everything from, of course, the UN Protection Force to the issue of
10 violations of Security Council resolutions pertaining to sanctions and,
11 in effect, the closing of that border to military personnel and goods.
12 Q. You have mentioned that information would sometimes come from
13 UNPROFOR on the issue. Were there any other United Nations associated
14 entities before the border -- before this resolution who were tasked with
15 monitoring for violations?
16 A. There had been present within Bosnia the -- what was then the
17 European Commission Observer Mission they, in fact, may have worked in
18 conjunction with the United Nations. I believe, and this is a very
19 difficult question because we saw them all as coming basically from the
20 United Nations, generally I think what I want to emphasise is the
21 information coming from any UN source was generally filtered through the
22 Secretariat, that is the Secretary-General's office. So we were not
23 always privy as to what was the actual source on the ground.
24 Q. Okay. Was this recommendation that there be monitors acted upon?
25 A. As I understand it was. Again, the details and the intensity of
1 that were something that was dynamic and developed over time.
2 Q. Were those individuals given a particular title or how would we
3 know who was appointed pursuant to this resolution?
4 A. I am testing my memory here, but if I'm not mistaken, and I wish
5 to be sure that I'm clear I'm not absolutely sure, I believe, in fact,
6 these individuals did have a separate designation from the UN Protection
7 Force. They, in fact, were called the monitoring mission or something to
8 that degree. I'm -- I believe there's a slightly different title there
9 with the UN word in front of it.
10 MS. BOLTON: Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so marked. May it please be given an
13 exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P2473, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MS. BOLTON: I want to move to a different topic, sir, although
17 we've touched on this briefly, and that is -- and this is again we are
18 still in 1993. We've talked a little bit about the situation in
20 for a private session for these -- for one document actually, sir.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 7343-7344 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. We are in open session.
6 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, we were having microphone problems there,
7 again, Your Honour, but it looks like it's time for the second break in
8 any event. Perhaps we can address the technical issues at the break.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Bolton. We'll come
10 back at quarter to 6.00. Court adjourned.
11 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 5.48 p.m.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: For the record, Judge David is back now, we are no
14 longer sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis. It's a normal session.
15 Madam Bolton.
16 MS. BOLTON:
17 Q. Thank you. Sir, I think we have only one document left in this
18 binder to discuss, and it should be found at tab 20, 65 ter 6621,
19 Resolution 859 from the 24th of August, 1993.
20 A. Yes, I have that in front of me.
21 Q. There's a couple of passages I'll refer you to and then I'll have
22 just a few questions. On the first page about halfway down, there's a
23 paragraph that starts with the word "condemning" says:
24 "Condemning, once again, all war crimes and other violations of
25 international humanitarian law, by whomsoever committed, Bosnian Serbs or
1 other individuals."
2 Further on that same page, the Security Council expresses concern
3 about the continuing siege of Sarajevo
4 Turning the page, if you would, sir, there is then, as underneath
5 the actual resolution section, numbered paragraph 5 where there's a
6 reference to:
7 "Noting with appreciation the Secretary-General's letter, stating
8 that the United Nations has now the initial operational capability for
9 the use of air power in support of UNPROFOR in Bosnia and Herzegovina
10 Was that air power utilized at that time?
11 A. Not prior to this date, but subsequent to this date it was.
12 Q. Can you be any more exact in terms of 1993, can you recall
13 whether, tell me if you can't, whether there was any use of the NATO air
14 power at that point?
15 A. Yes, there were several instances, and the dates would really be
16 now a little bit more difficult for me to remember, although the
17 locations would not be: One of them would be events related to Sarajevo
18 another one would be to events related to Bihac; a third one, if I'm not
19 mistaken, would be events related to the eastern enclaves, particularly,
20 if I'm not mistaken, around Gorazde.
21 MS. BOLTON: Can I ask that that be marked as the next exhibit,
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2474.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MS. BOLTON:
3 Q. Sir, I want to turn to 1994, and as I indicated I think at the
4 beginning of the proceedings, there obviously isn't time to speak about
5 every development in the war, so I want to focus our discussions for 1994
6 on three areas: First is going to be Sarajevo; second is going to be the
7 commission of experts final report; and the third will be two resolutions
8 from the Security Council.
9 So continuing on the theme or talking about Sarajevo, could I ask
10 you to turn in the 1994 binder -- you have that binder in front of you?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Yes. Okay. Tab A, please. That would be 65 ter 6770, document
13 titled "Note by The President of the Security Council."
14 A. No, I have "Provisional verbatim record of the 3201st meeting of
15 the Security Council."
16 Q. What year is that document you are looking at, sir?
17 A. April 19, 1993
18 Q. We should have a different binder with 1994, I think.
19 MS. BOLTON: Court's indulgence.
20 THE WITNESS: This binder is entitled 1993/1994.
21 MS. BOLTON:
22 Q. I'm told there is a divider, sorry, between the 1993 section and
23 the 1994 section in that binder.
24 THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] Could Ms. Bolton please repeat the
25 65 ter number.
1 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, 6770.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] Under 6770, Ms. Bolton, I have a
3 document dated the 19th of April, 1993.
4 MS. BOLTON: Court's indulgence.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, are you sure they heard you when you
6 said there was a divider between 1993 and 1994.
7 MS. BOLTON: Yes, I think I may have the wrong 65 ter number for
8 this exhibit, so I am just going to take a moment and check that.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't believe you do. If you do, so do I.
10 MS. BOLTON: Okay, well, it's 6770.
11 THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] That is correct, Ms. Bolton.
12 MS. BOLTON: Right. Brief indulgence.
13 Q. Can we try bringing that up on e-court. It's not a long
14 document. It's already -- can you see it in the electronic form,
15 Mr. Sacirbey?
16 A. We can now.
17 Q. This is not a lengthy document. In paragraph 2 of this document,
18 let me just refer to you a passage:
19 "The Security Council condemns any hostilities in the United
20 Nations designated safe areas, especially in the Sarajevo area. In
21 particular, it strongly condemns the continuing military pressure on and
22 the relentless bombardment by Bosnian Serb forces of the capital city,
24 which have resulted in a high number of civilian casualties, seriously
25 disrupted essential services, and aggravated an already severe
1 humanitarian situation."
2 And it continues from there.
3 We had been talking in 1993 in August about the situation around
4 Mount Igman
5 January 1994?
6 A. It had not. The situation continued to be volatile and
7 militarily active until, if I'm not mistaken, somewhere in the spring of
9 Q. And this paragraph by the Security Council, does that accurately
10 reflect your understanding based on the information you were receiving
11 from Sarajevo
12 A. Yes, that is correct.
13 Q. Sorry, sir. Thank you.
14 A. Yes, that is correct.
15 Q. And we have discussed this kind of document before, to some
16 extent, and my question is in order -- before a note is issued by the
17 president of the Security Council, is it voted on?
18 A. There is no formal vote. In fact, it does have to be, though,
19 agreed to by consensus.
20 Q. And is that consensus, does that have to be all 15 members or
21 just the five permanent members or some combination thereof?
22 A. Consensus would be all 15 members.
23 MS. BOLTON: If that could be marked as the next be exhibit,
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2475.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
4 MS. BOLTON:
5 Q. Under what circumstances would the Security Council issue a
6 statement as opposed to passing a resolution?
7 A. Honestly, here was a matter almost of appearance. There had been
8 so many resolutions passed respect of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and some of the
9 resolutions, of course, were repeating --
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Please.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would beg Ms. Bolton to control the witness
13 when a question like that is asked and an answer like this is given.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Guy-Smith. I don't know what you are
15 saying. I don't understand what the basis of your objection is.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm just asking Ms. Bolton to control the
17 witness. "Under what circumstances would the Security Council issue a
18 statement as opposed to passing a resolution?"
19 Apart from the fact that I did not jump to my feet to argue that
20 this is, once again, an inappropriate questioning as this particular
21 gentleman because of the lack of foundation, when the response comes as
22 this response comes, this a very specific question. This is an abstract
23 question. And the answer that she's been given clearly does not follow
24 from the question she's asked. She has commented yesterday that she
25 cannot control the witness. She can intercede when this occurs.
1 It is a highly, highly, improper and prejudicial way to proceed
2 during a trial to have a witness run amuck.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.
4 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
5 Q. Sir, sorry, you were beginning to answer the question that was
6 posed, and just to refresh your memory, you had started to say, "Honestly
7 here was a matter almost of appearance ...," and you were talking about
8 the number of resolutions that had been passed, and if you could just
9 continue if you have anything to add to that?
10 A. The resolutions already dealt with factors that were presumably
11 necessary to bring about the desired results. Because the desired
12 results were not being, in fact, delivered, then the presidential
13 statement would be brought about to emphasise the need to comply with
14 previous resolutions or to emphasise acts on the ground that were
15 occurring that were inconsistent with previous resolutions.
16 In the case of Bosnia-Herzegovina there was a unprecedented
17 number of resolutions and, in fact, the Security Council increasingly
18 relied upon presidential statements to recall its previous actions in
19 terms of resolutions to emphasise the need for compliance of those
20 resolutions as well as to bring to the forefront matters, issues, actions
21 that were inconsistent with performance under those resolutions.
22 Q. Okay. I'm going to return to January or February of 1994 and
23 events in Sarajevo
24 MS. BOLTON: Could I ask that we move into private session,
25 Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 7353-7356 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 Yes, Madam Bolton
9 MS. BOLTON:
10 Q. We were talking about a marketplace shelling, and we were talking
11 about a situation in Sarajevo
12 situation resolved in the wake of the marketplace shelling that you've
13 talked about? What happened -- sorry my question is not clear. Strike
14 that last question.
15 What was the situation after February 1994 in Sarajevo
16 A. For a period there, the shelling was so frequent that probably
17 every other day there were very significant numbers of casualties in
19 significant number, we would have an incident that would cause the death,
20 let's say, of maybe five to ten people, and that almost became an
21 every-day affair as one would put it callously.
22 After this period of time, the heavy weapons began to be, in
23 fact, deposited into containment areas, and in fact, the threat of NATO
24 air action presumably was taken more seriously; and, therefore, the
25 intensity, the frequency of these attacks certainly became less. And
1 even the ability of humanitarian assistance to come into the towns was
2 more frequent. Let me put it that way.
3 Q. We'll clarify this, sir, by looking at a document. If I could
4 ask you to look at 65 ter 5048, which is tab -- that same tab for you.
5 Should be behind the document we were just discussing --
6 A. Right.
7 Q. -- and it's Resolution 900 of the Security Council.
8 A. Right.
9 Q. And there is a reference on the first page of that resolution, in
10 the paragraph that starts with the word "taking note," to a cease-fire
11 agreement of -- reached on the 9th of February, 1994.
12 A. Yes, I have this.
13 Q. Could you tell us if there was -- you've already started to
14 allude to this, was there any change in the living conditions for the
15 civilian population in Sarajevo
16 cease-fire agreement?
17 A. First of all, from secondhand reports there certainly was, and
18 from my own personal observations, since I had travelled to Sarajevo
19 before then and after then, there was a very significant change in the --
20 both in terms of the attacks upon the civilian population as well as the
21 ability of humanitarian assistance to reach that population.
22 Q. And when we are talking about a very significant change, are you
23 talking about a change for the better or change for the worse?
24 A. I'm sorry, I was not clear. There was a significant change for
25 the better.
1 Q. And how long did that improved situation in Sarajevo last?
2 A. Ms. Bolton, I'm being asked to just let you know, as the
3 Registrar here with me, the -- we are hearing you very poorly, but,
4 nonetheless, I can proceed; so just in case we need to ask you to repeat
5 the question, you'll understand why.
6 And to now respond to your direct question, that situation
7 continued until, I think it's fair enough to say, the late summer of
9 Q. Did there appear to be any particular event that resulted in the
10 deterioration or the -- yeah, the deterioration again of the situation in
12 A. It was, in fact, a rejection of what then was called a contact
13 group peace plan which was issued to the parties in the early part of
14 that summer in 1994. The rejection came from the Serbian side. By then
15 I should emphasise that the Bosnian government was also representing as
16 the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which, in fact, was a way for the
17 so-called Bosnian Croat party as well as the government of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina to reach agreement.
19 Q. Okay. During that period we've just been talking about, roughly
20 February to the end of the summer of 1994, did the incidents of shelling
21 ever stop completely?
22 A. No, they did not, Ms. Bolton, but frankly as I said, the
23 situation was dramatically different.
24 Q. And how about sniping incidents, did they end entirely, and I
25 mean by the Bosnian Serb forces in this case?
1 A. No, they did not. But again it was a very dramatic change.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MS. BOLTON: If this document could be marked as an exhibit,
4 please, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2476.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MS. BOLTON:
10 Q. I just want to ask you to turn, please, in the binder you have
11 before you to tab H. You should have 65 ter 8836 before you.
12 A. Yes, I have that in front of me.
13 Q. Should be a letter dated the 15th November, 1994?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. In which you are complaining --
16 A. Ms. Bolton, am I screaming back at you? Because as I hear you,
17 as I'm able to hear you less, I might be screaming back or is the volume
18 here at this end okay? I ask you and, obviously, His Honour and Defence
20 MS. BOLTON: I'm able to hear you without difficulty and
21 His Honour is nodding that the volume is all right for him as it is for
22 Defence counsel. You are not shouting at us.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
24 MS. BOLTON:
25 Q. If I could just ask again, sir, if you could confirm that this is
1 a letter that you authored?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. And again, you asked that it be circulated as a document of the
4 Security Council?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And again, to the best of your knowledge, was that done?
7 A. Yes, it was.
8 MS. BOLTON: Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,
9 Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that document will become
13 Exhibit P2477.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
15 Yes, Madam Bolton
16 MS. BOLTON:
17 Q. Turning to the next tab in your binder, sir, tab J, you should
18 have 65 ter 8837. Again, if you could just confirm for me, it should be
19 a letter from yourself dated 17th November, 1994. Could you confirm that
20 you did, in fact, author it?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Again it ends by asking it be circulated as a document to
23 Security Council. To the best of your knowledge was that done?
24 A. That is correct.
25 MS. BOLTON: Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,
1 Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so marked. May it please be given a number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2478, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
5 Yes, Madam Bolton
6 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
7 Q. Sir, I'd like to move on now from Sarajevo to the second issue
8 that I said I'd like to discuss with you with respect to 1994, and that
9 is the release of the final report from the commission of experts, which
10 you should find at tab B, I think, in 1994.
11 MS. BOLTON: Court's indulgence. It's Exhibit P1536, and I may
12 have the wrong tab. If we could just hold for a minute, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] We have it, Ms. Bolton.
14 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
15 Q. And it should be, for the record, I think the first -- the date
16 on it is date of 27th May, 1994
17 A. Yes, I have that.
18 Q. And we have a reproduced -- you should, I think, have pages 1 to
19 84; is that correct?
20 A. I believe I do.
21 Q. Again, I'm going to refer you to a couple of passages and then I
22 have some questions for you.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. If I could refer you first -- I believe there's a cover letter at
25 the very first page, and that is a letter dated 24th May, 1994?
1 A. Yes, I have that.
2 Q. That's a letter authored, I believe, from Boutros Boutros-Ghali
3 to the president of the Security Council?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. Looking at paragraph 4, Mr. Boutros Boutros-Ghali indicates:
6 "On the basis of the information gathered, examined, and
7 analysed, the commission has concluded that grave breaches of the
8 Geneva Conventions and other violations of international humanitarian law
9 have been committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia on a large
10 scale and were particularly brutal and ferocious in their execution. The
11 practice of so-called ethnic cleansing and rape and sexual assault, in
12 particular, has been carried out by some of the parties so systematically
13 that they strongly appear to be a products of a policy, which may also be
14 inferred from the consistent failure to prevent the commission of such
15 crimes and to prosecute and punish their perpetrators."
16 Was this letter received by yourself?
17 A. Yes, it was, Ms. Bolton.
18 Q. And the text of the actual report?
19 A. I did review the report.
20 Q. And is that a document that you had to seek out?
21 A. I'm just looking for the document right now, and I was going to
22 see if it was made a document of the Security Council. I don't see that
23 designation, but we did receive this report, and I do remember it very
25 Q. Looking at the first page of the document, of the letter we were
1 discussing, there's letterhead that looks like Security Council, does
2 that mean anything in terms of its circulation?
3 A. Yes. I was noting that because it shows it as distribution
4 general, which means the general membership. And it appears to be a
5 document of Security Council. What I didn't see is the Secretary-General
6 anywhere asking for it to be distributed as such, which I guess he didn't
7 have to, it was distributed as such.
8 Q. Okay. If I could refer you to paragraph 129, which is page 33 of
9 the English version. At paragraph 129 in the first section of it, there
10 is discussion of the term "ethnic cleansing" in both -- they are citing
11 from an interim report. And we had been discussing earlier in our
12 exchange whether there had been a definition of ethnic cleansing ever
13 adopted by the Security Council. Can you tell me, was there agreement as
14 to whether this is the definition of ethnic cleansing?
15 A. I believe this comes as close as there is to consensus.
16 Q. Looking at paragraph 131, there is a reference with respect to
17 the practices by Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it then says:
18 "Ethnic cleansing is commonly used as a term to describe a policy
19 conducted in furtherance of political doctrines relating to Greater
21 Can you assist us in what those -- when we have reference to the
22 political doctrines, what is that a reference to?
23 A. That is in reference, in particular, to the very broad notion of
24 Greater Serbia
25 would, of incorporating any area that was deemed to be somehow a part of
1 the territory that Serbs did or had occupied to be part of, in effect, a
2 redefined Serbia
3 MS. BOLTON: Brief indulgence, sir.
4 THE WITNESS: Ms. Bolton, it really is extremely annoying, the
5 noise that we are getting at this end. So please excuse me that my
6 concentration is being rattled.
7 MS. BOLTON: Are you able to hear me clearly, sir, or is it such
8 that you can't understand what I'm saying? Are we breaking up?
9 THE WITNESS: I'm able to hear you with quite great
10 concentration, so my answers are, to some extent, distracted by the focus
11 on hearing you. Continue, I'll try to do the best that I can here.
12 MS. BOLTON: You are breaking up a little bit on this end but not
13 too badly. Just a moment, sir.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Registrar in New York suggests maybe we take a
16 short break and try to re-establish connection.
17 MS. BOLTON: Okay. We are going to try to re-establish, sir.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a short break. We will be called.
19 --- Break taken at 6.31 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 6.50 p.m.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, had you got an answer to your
22 question or had you --
23 MS. BOLTON:
24 Q. I just want -- can you hear us now, sir, or how are things on
25 that end?
1 A. They are about the same, maybe even slightly worse, but as I
2 understand, it's for another 15 minutes, and I'll try to maintain my
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, if I may just interrupt --
5 MS. BOLTON: Please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- given the noise in the background, if we
7 adjourned now, would everybody be available to sit tomorrow morning.
8 MS. BOLTON: The problem is --
9 THE WITNESS: We cannot hear, Your Honour
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I am sorry, I guess my suggestion has just been
12 shot down.
13 MS. BOLTON: Three in the morning is a little early for --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Three in the morning is a little early. What I
15 said was, Could we switch tomorrow morning.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't have any problem with that.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no, but tomorrow morning, it will be 3.00 in
18 New York
19 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, Your Honour, I'm willing to be here.
20 I'm willing to be here if I can be allowed to come into the building. I
21 will not object.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the problem, I don't know whether the
23 Registrar next to you there or Madam Corominas would be willing to be
24 there at 3.00 in the morning, so I would hate.
25 MS. COROMINAS: Your Honour, that --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam --
2 MS. COROMINAS: Your Honour, Madam Corominas here, that would be
3 fine with me to be here at 3.00 in the morning. The building is open.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is the building open? And Mr. Registrar?
5 MS. COROMINAS: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Let's check out with the
7 people here then.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- having lived for awhile as a child in New
13 stay up all night. But I'm not sure that this is necessarily an
14 effective way of doing things, because if we have a transmission problem
15 tomorrow, I don't know whether all the rest of the staff that's involved
16 in the technical aspects of this particular kind of video transmission
17 are also going to be available. I think we need to make sure about that
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's actually what the Registrar was raising
20 with me, and it does look like it's logistically a little difficult to
21 arrange a sitting tomorrow morning. We may just have to adjourn to
22 another date.
23 MS. BOLTON: Yes, Your Honour, I agree. I agree, I have no
24 difficulty with adjourning to tomorrow, Your Honour, and I think there
25 would be a number of logistical issues with trying to start at 3.00 in
1 the morning, New York
2 time for the videolink for that --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Aren't we scheduled to sit in the afternoon
4 tomorrow anyway?
5 MS. BOLTON: We are sitting in the afternoon tomorrow, starting
6 at --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, well, why don't we postpone until tomorrow
9 MS. BOLTON: Okay, yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Somehow I had it in my mind that something else
11 was happening in the afternoon. Sorry. Okay, then let's adjourn to
12 tomorrow. This time it will not be half past 2.00, it will be quarter
13 past 2.00. Is that okay? Courtroom I for people in the Netherlands,
14 right where you are there in New York.
15 Mr. Sacirbey, I must warn you again, you don't talk to anybody
16 until you are excused from testifying -- talk to anybody about the case.
17 You can talk to other people, to everybody about anything else. Thank
18 you so much.
19 THE WITNESS: I believe I heard Your Honour's -- Your Honour's
20 words. I believe I have heard them correctly and has to do with me
21 speaking to anyone else regarding the case.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Sacirbey. Have a good day
23 and we'll meet tomorrow. Court adjourned.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.56 p.m.
1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of June,
2 2009, at 2.15 p.m.