Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7370

 1                           Thursday, 18 June 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  And how are they in New York.  Good morning to you.

 7             Madam Registrar would you call the case.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

10     number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             And could we have appearances for this afternoon, starting with

13     the Prosecution, please.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Good afternoon Your Honour, it's Lorna Bolton,

15     Carmela Javier, and Mark Harmon for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.

17             And for the Defence.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon.  Chad Mair, Kay Marshall,

19     Milos Androvic, Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith, for the Defence.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.  Just for the record,

21     one again, we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis because again

22     Judge David is busy in the other case.

23             And again, for the record, Mr. Sacirbey, just to say that you

24     that you are still bound by the declaration that you made at the

25     beginning of your testimony to tell the truth whole truth and nothing

Page 7371

 1     else but the truth.  Thank you.

 2                           WITNESS:  MUHAMED SACIRBEY [Resumed]

 3                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 4             THE WITNESS:  I believe I heard, Your Honour.  It is -- the noise

 5     persists from yesterday.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Say that again, Mr. Sacirbey?

 7             THE WITNESS:  The same noise.  In fact, it is even worse today

 8     that we ended with has continued.  I'm having great difficulty even

 9     hearing you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm very sorry.  If can't hear us very well, just

11     say, and we must try to attend to the technical problems because it is

12     important that you hear everything that is said and that we also hear

13     what you say.  Okay?  Don't hesitate to complain.

14             Thank you so much.

15             Madam Bolton.

16                           Examination by Ms. Bolton: [Continued]

17        Q.   Good afternoon.  Did you hear His Honour's caution to you

18     Mr. Sacirbey about letting us know if the noise difficulty is too bad?

19        A.   Madam Bolton, I think it is impossible to really be responding

20     properly to your questions with this.  I think the Registrar has some

21     proposals.  I think he agrees that it is impossible to clearly hear you

22     or, certainly, concentrate on my answer.

23             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Good afternoon, Madam Bolton, and

24     Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is the Registrar here.

25     Unfortunately, the conditions are such that it is really difficult to

Page 7372

 1     hear and understand the [indiscernible] coming from Courtroom I,

 2     Your Honours, through videolink.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

 4             Madam Bolton, what do you suggest?

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Let's trach a break, Your Honour, and see what

 7     options we have able to us from the technical side of things.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             We are going to take a short break and see if we can attend to

10     the technical problems.  Just stay around, get fresh air, out of that

11     little room, and you will be called when we are ready, okay?

12             Just a second.  Madam Registrar wants to say something here.

13             I'm told they will need something like ten minutes to attend to

14     the problem, so we'll come back in ten minutes -- they will call us in

15     ten minutes time, okay?

16             Thank you so much.  Court adjourned.

17                            --- Break taken at 2.27 p.m.

18                            --- On resuming at 2.42 p.m.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let us hope -- you may be seated out there in

20     New York.  Let's hope that we are now well under way.

21             Madam Bolton.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't think we are, Your Honour, I can't see

23     the ...

24                           [Technical difficulty]

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is that background noise?

Page 7373

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  [Technical difficulty]

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Say it again?

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  [Technical difficulty]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  There is a lot of background noise.  I couldn't

 5     hear her with my [indiscernible] on.  I don't know what is going to

 6     happen.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  [Technical difficulty] ... the other problem is

 8     this:  As long as Mr. Sacirbey remains static.  I can see him, but the

 9     minute he moves, his image begins to distort.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, yeah.  I don't think we can order him to sit

11     static.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Absolutely not, I'm not suggesting -- I'm not

13     suggesting that we do that.  The difficulty that exists, however, is as

14     follows:  If I cannot see Mr. Sacirbey while he is testifying, then I'm

15     not afforded the right that I should be afforded for purposes of being

16     able to adequately and appropriate conduct the examination, and my client

17     is not in a position to do that either.

18             I understand that videolinks are considered to be an adequate

19     form of confrontation as well as a fashion of taking testimony.  However,

20     if we are not able to see the witness, through no fault of his own,

21     obviously, and his reactions to questions, and the manner in which he is

22     testifying, then we are being denied a fundamental right.  And since we

23     have had not had this particular problem until, well, it started, I

24     guess, last night.  But until today, in terms of testimony, we have been

25     having some success with regard to, at least, the visual part of the

Page 7374

 1     videolink.  We also had, at times, success with both the visual as well

 2     as the audio part of the link.  I would respectfully submit, at this

 3     point, to just take a moment [indiscernible]  technically as opposed to

 4     run through these various problems, because at this juncture, I'm going

 5     to spend more time trying to figuring out what is going on in terms of

 6     the witness's testimony than I am going to be paying attention, in a

 7     meaningful sense, to his responses.

 8             This is not a workable situation for the Defence.

 9             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  I'm sorry to interrupt you,

10     Mr. Guy-Smith.  This is the Registrar from the videolink in New York.  We

11     cannot hear you well.  We can't comprehend what you are saying.  The --

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I apologise, Mr. Registrar.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me interrupt you, Mr. Guy-Smith.  All it means

14     is that our technical problems have not been solved.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Apparently so.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know whether you have any response, at

17     least to what Mr. Guy-Smith was saying, and I don't know whether it is

18     worthwhile that we try you also, if the people in New York can't hear us.

19             MS. BOLTON:  No, I was going to say, I don't see this as a

20     problem with the video.  The image is fine, but the sound is terrible, so

21     we have to try again.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The sound is terrible.  But, still, Mr. Guy-Smith

23     made the submission, he made in terms of the visual side of things.  I

24     can see Mr. Sacirbey quite well, whether he moves or doesn't.  But I

25     don't know what is happening on his monitor.

Page 7375

 1             Shall we then take a break and try to attend to the technical

 2     problems again?  I'm sorry about that.

 3             Court adjourned.

 4                            --- Break taken at 2.48 p.m.

 5                            --- On resuming at 3.06 p.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Testing, testing, can you hear us out there in

 7     New York?

 8             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Good afternoon Your Honours.  We

 9     can hear you and we can see you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             Madam Bolton.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Mr. Sacirbey, when we left matters yesterday, we were looking at

14     the commission of experts final report, which is P1536.  Do you have that

15     report?

16             It --

17             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Madam Bolton --

18             MS. BOLTON:

19        Q.   It should be in -- I think it was tab B.  It's a 1994 document.

20             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  We have P01536, Madam Bolton.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Okay.  Thank you.

22        Q.   We had discussed the cover letters, and now I would like to draw

23     your attention to some passages.  If you could turn to paragraphs 133.

24        A.   Yes, I do have that.

25        Q.   I'm actually got two or three parts of this report.  I'm going to

Page 7376

 1     read you passages and then ask -- and then ask you a series of questions,

 2     sir.

 3             Sorry, sir, I'm just having microphone issues here.

 4             And then instead of repeating the question, I will ask you some

 5     questions globally, okay?

 6             So the first section I want to read to you, refer you to is --

 7     starts in paragraph 133 where it reads:

 8             "The manner in which the policy of ethnic cleansing is carried

 9     out by Serbs in Bosnia is consistent throughout a certain geographic area

10     represented by an arc ranging from northern Bosnia and covering areas in

11     eastern and western Bosnia, joining the Serb Krajina area in Croatia.

12     The practice of ethnic cleansing is carried out in strategic area,

13     linking Serbia proper with Serb-inhabited areas in Bosnia and Croatia.

14     The strategic factor is significantly relevant to understanding why the

15     policy has been carried out in certain areas and not in others.

16             "The course of means used to remove the civilian population from

17     the above mentioned strategic areas include:  Mass murder, torture, rape

18     and other forms of sexual assault; severe physical injury to civilians;

19     mistreatment of civilian prisoners and prisoners of war; use of civilians

20     as human shields; destruction of personal public and cultural property;

21     looting, theft, robbery of personal property; forced expropriation of

22     real property; forcible displacement of civilian population; and attacks

23     on hospitals, medical personnel and locations marked with the Red Cross

24     Red Crescent emblem."

25             If you could turn the page, sir, to paragraph 194, it will be

Page 7377

 1     page 46.

 2        A.   I have that.

 3        Q.   Beginning of that paragraph reads, and now we're talking in the

 4     context of Sarajevo:

 5             "Accumulative effect of the number of civilian casualties,

 6     destruction of non-military structures, attacks upon and destruction of

 7     protected targets such as hospitals, cultural appropriate and other

 8     impermissible targets evidence a consistent and repeated pattern of grave

 9     breaches of the Geneva Conventions and other violations of international

10     humanitarian law?"

11             We already discussed yesterday, sir, the distribution of the

12     written report.  My question for you is:  Can you comment on the extent

13     to which the -- the contents of the paragraphs I've read to you were the

14     subject of discussions at the United Nations.

15        A.   Yes, they were, Madam Bolton.  And the discussions were extensive

16     in the context of defining what Greater Serbia meant.

17        Q.   And, again, with respect to the contents of these paragraphs, did

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina have any input into what was written?

19        A.   Not that I'm aware of, Ms. Bolton.

20        Q.   There is also a section of this report, sir --

21             MS. BOLTON:  Brief indulgence.

22        Q.   Yes, sir.  There is also a section of this report, sir -- brief

23     indulgence.  Yes, sir, there is also a section, if you would turn to

24     paragraph 55 and following, should be a title "Command responsibility"

25     starts, page 16 and 17.

Page 7378

 1        A.   I believe I have that.

 2        Q.   I'm looking now at paragraph 59.  I have some questions about the

 3     following.

 4             Halfway through the paragraph, you should see a sentence that

 5     starts with the words, "In particular."  It says:

 6              "In particular, a military commander who is assigned command and

 7     control over armed combatant groups who have engaged in war crime in the

 8     past should refrain from employing such groups in combat until they

 9     clearly demonstrate their intention and capability to comply with the law

10     in the future, thus a commander has a duty to do everything reasonable

11     and practicable to prevent violations of the law.  Failure to carry out

12     such a duty carries with it responsibility."

13             Paragraph 60 says:

14             "Lastly a military commander has the duty to punish or discipline

15     those under his command whom he knows or has reasonable grounds to know

16     committed a violation."

17             And my question for you is:  Was the legal aspect, articulated in

18     these paragraphs, the subject of any discussions at the United Nations in

19     any form?

20        A.   Yes, it was Ms. Bolton.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.  With regard to that question, I'd

22     like to have a time-frame, if we could.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

24             MS. BOLTON:  My friend can ask whatever questions he would like

25     in cross-examination, Your Honour.  I will be asking some follow-up

Page 7379

 1     questions to the witness.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I appreciate the kind offer from Ms. Bolton.  The

 4     question is vague as to time as presently formulated.  Considering the

 5     nature of the subject matter, this is something which I'm sure would help

 6     the Chamber as well as help a consideration of the evidence, if there was

 7     a time-frame contained therein.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I would imagine that we'll get a time-frame on the

10     publications of the report and what have you.  I don't suppose that this

11     was discussed more than once, or if it was, each time it's discussed, if

12     it was an ongoing discussion, we will see it on the documents.

13             You may proceed, Madam Bolton.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Could you just expand on what you were saying, sir, in terms of

16     the discussions you were saying took place on the legal aspects

17     articulated in the document I have just put to you?

18        A.   Yes, Ms. Bolton.  The discussions were ongoing.  They were

19     particularly intense at moments when evidence of such violations came to

20     light.  The summer of -- the late summer of 1992, at the London

21     Conference, at the time that the Tribunal was first proposed under

22     Resolution 7717, and, of course, at the time that it, in fact -- it did

23     come to reality which was approximately a year later.

24             Then throughout the conflict, again, these issues would come up,

25     both in United Nations discussions but also in the negotiation process

Page 7380

 1     and, of course, they were also brought up in the context of the role that

 2     I played as agent on behalf of Bosnia and Herzegovina before the

 3     International Court of Justice.  At that time, I also did have

 4     interaction with officials who were given the initial responsibility of

 5     establishing the methodology of the ICTY, and, again, these issue would

 6     say have been brought up in discussion, and to be fair, they may have

 7     been brought up with respect to others -- others than the Serbian forces

 8     also.  And I would have called upon to respond to these issues in the

 9     context of the forces of the government of the Republic of Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina.

11        Q.   So I take it from your answer that this document was not the

12     first time that the issue of command responsibility had been raised in

13     the UN?

14        A.   Absolutely not.  Because we're speaking of systematic violations

15     that would have become even a point of higher priority or discussion.

16        Q.   Okay.  Just for clarification, the Tribunal that you're talking

17     about in your answer is what Tribunal?

18        A.   I'm talking about the ICTY, the International Criminal Tribunal

19     for the former Yugoslavia.

20        Q.   Thank you, sir.

21             With respect to this report, can you comment on the extent to

22     which it was discussed or disseminated in the media?

23        A.   If I do remember correctly, it was very widely discussed, because

24     the Tribunal, that is the ICTY, was an institution without precedent.

25     This document, of course, gave the practical basis, the reasons why it

Page 7381

 1     was necessary, and, in particular, again, addressing the systematic

 2     nature of the crimes and events.

 3        Q.   You told us earlier in your evidence that, to some extent, your

 4     mission was monitoring, trying to keep track of some of the media coming

 5     out of the region.  Are you familiar with a publication called "Borba"?

 6        A.   Yes, I am.  It's a mainstream, I believe, one of the largest, if

 7     not the largest, published newspapers out there, dailies out there.

 8        Q.   And are you aware of whether they had any coverage of that report

 9     in their publication?

10        A.   I am not aware, Ms. Bolton.

11        Q.   What language is "Borba" -- does it publish in?

12        A.   Serbian.

13        Q.   What was -- do you recall what happened to the information that

14     the commission of experts had gathered as a result of their work?

15        A.   Yes.  That -- that information was catalogued.  I actually

16     received the details, many of the individual reports, and a couple of

17     them left the particular imprint in my mind.  If the Court would like, I

18     would be happy to, at least, give one example.

19        Q.   No, don't think that's necessary, sir.  We have been talking

20     about the -- the work of the Tribunal.  Do you know whether the

21     materials -- copies of the materials were provided to the Tribunal ?

22        A.   I believe they were.

23             MS. BOLTON:  This document is print marked as Prosecution Exhibit

24     1536, but it is it marked for identification.  I would like to move that

25     it be marked as an exhibit without the MFI designation.

Page 7382

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I take it that this particular exhibit, which is

 3     presently marked for identification, 1536, obtains the same status as

 4     those others.  This document is being offered by the Prosecution for

 5     purposes of notice.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  That's correct.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And that is the sole purpose it is being offered;

 8     correct?

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Being offered for notice.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I appreciate what you just said.  I'm asking --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, you can cross-examine the witness.

12     It is offered for notice.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  If it's -- in the event that it is offered

14     for notice and not to prove the truth of the matter asserted therein,

15     there is no objection to this document.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

17     please be given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will retain

19     Exhibit P1536.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             Madam Bolton.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honour, I'm trying to find -- if I can

23     just the volume in -- from the courtroom in my headphones.  It is fine

24     from New York, I can adjust, but -- sorry, I can't.  Sorry.

25        Q.   Sir, I'd like you to take a look at another resolution which is

Page 7383

 1     Resolution 941, and I just need to locate that for you.

 2        A.   23rd September 1994?

 3        Q.   Yes, sir, you have it.  It is 65 ter 2180.

 4             Do you have that in front of you, sir?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Paragraph 2 indicates that the Security Council is

 7     taking note of information provided by the United Nations High

 8     Commissioner for Refugees and the International Committee of the Red

 9     Cross and then goes on to say that the information, is with regards to

10     grave violations of international humanitarian law, affecting the

11     non-Serbian population in those areas, that the Republic of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina under the control of Bosnian Serb forces.

13             Were you privy to any of the information that the High

14     Commissioner for Refugees or the International Committee of the Red Cross

15     provided?

16        A.   Yes, I was.  Or, at least, I believe I was, in that I also had

17     sources of information coming to me directly.  And we were, in fact, at

18     that time, particularly focussed on the situation in these so-called

19     occupied areas.

20        Q.   Just would like to know what kind of information those entities

21     were providing.

22        A.   First of all, we continued to hear of people being forced out

23     much their homes.

24        Q.   Sorry, let me --

25        A.   Those who had not --

Page 7384

 1        Q.   Sorry, my question wasn't very clear when they provided

 2     information would, it be -- sorry, firsthand accounts or hearsay?  Can

 3     you answer that question?

 4        A.   It could be.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Since we're talk about a number of different

 7     entities, if we could identify which entities we're referring to and

 8     which information is coming from which entity.  That be of helpful -- for

 9     purposes of a specific objection, the question as it presently is set

10     forth is both vague and compound.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

12             MS. BOLTON:

13        Q.   Sir, if the entities provided different kinds of information,

14     please let us now.

15             Turning to my question then, what kinds -- was it firsthand or

16     hearsay information that was provided?

17        A.   Generally, the information provided by the UN refugee agency be

18     from the refugees themselves, and it generally would be, in most

19     instances, as I can recall, once they had left the territory.  So it

20     would be, generally, directly from the victims, refugees, whatever you

21     would like to refer to them.

22             In the case of the International Committee of the Red Cross, they

23     generally had some greater access, and in fact that information may be

24     directly from the ground.  And if you -- if we look down at the

25     paragraph at the bottom this is something I do recall, we were also

Page 7385

 1     focussed, of course, on the fact that there was limited access to at

 2     least some of the areas, if not most of the areas that were in question.

 3             So exactly how much information came through, we believe that

 4     there was a lot more still that needed to come through.

 5        Q.   When you say there was limited access, limited access to whom?

 6        A.   Limited access to the International Committee of the Red Cross,

 7     but in this case, in particular, the reference is to UN officials

 8     addressing these matters.  And at various points in time, it could have

 9     been actually UNPROFOR itself, or it could have been another particular

10     body of the United Nations that was tasked sometimes without our

11     knowledge to evaluate a particular situation.

12        Q.   And was either of those bodies, either the UN High Commission for

13     Refugees or the International Red Cross, did either of those bodies have

14     affiliations to any of the warring parties?

15        A.   Not at all.

16        Q.   I will have you confirm, sir, if you look at paragraph 2, in

17     particular, numbered paragraph 2 on the second page.  With, again, an

18     articulation condemnation of violations of international humanitarian

19     law, specific, this time, to the practice of ethnic cleansing in

20     Banja Luka, Bijeljina, and other areas, and a reaffirmation that

21     individual who commit those acts may be held criminally individually

22     responsible.

23             Looking at this document, sir, can you affirm whether this is a

24     true copy of the resolution that was passed by the Security Council?

25        A.   I believe it is.

Page 7386

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Before the witness answers the question, I

 2     believe that -- if Ms. Bolton is going to quote a paragraph, she should

 3     quote it properly.  It is that acts will be held individually

 4     responsible.  It does not say may be held criminally individually

 5     responsible.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  I stand corrected.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Sacirbey.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question was:  "Is that a true copy of the

10     resolution?"

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is, Your Honour.

12             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next exhibit,

13     Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

15     given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2479.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

18             Yes, Madam Bolton.

19             MS. BOLTON:

20        Q.   The next document in that same tab, sir, should be

21     Resolution 942, which is Prosecution Exhibit 225 in these proceedings.

22     And I'd also like you to look at another resolution passed the same date,

23     which is behind it, being Resolution 943, which is Exhibit D25 in these

24     proceedings.

25             Just take a moment, sir, and refresh your memory as to what those

Page 7387

 1     resolutions were about, then I will have some questions for you.

 2        A.   I've given it a review, Ms. Bolton.

 3        Q.   All right.  Looking, first, at Resolution 943, sir, there's a

 4     reference on the first page, in the fourth paragraph, the paragraph that

 5     starts with the word "Welcoming."  It says:

 6             "Welcoming the decision by the authorities of the Federal

 7     Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) to support the proposed

 8     territorial settlement for the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina which

 9     has been put to the Bosnian parties.

10             "Also welcoming the decision by the authorities of the Federal

11     Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) to close the international

12     border between the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, (Serbia and

13     Montenegro) and the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina with respect to

14     all goods, except foodstuffs, medical supplies, and clothing for

15     essential humanitarian needs."

16             What is the decision or the -- sorry, the announcement that is

17     being referred to?

18        A.   First of all, let me make sure that the Court does understand

19     that I'm not 100 percent precise that I'm accurate in this answer, but I

20     believe this was the decision relating to Serbia and Montenegro's

21     supporting what was then still called the Contact Group plan.

22        Q.   Okay.  And the announcement, then, that's referred to in that

23     context?

24        A.   Honestly, Ms. Bolton, I don't remember the announcement.  But I

25     assume it was made in some form of writing or verbally.

Page 7388

 1        Q.   Sorry, there was -- I'm actually using the wrong word perhaps.

 2     It talks about a decision by the authorities of the Federal Republic of

 3     Yugoslavia to close the international border.

 4             Do you recall that event?

 5        A.   I do, Ms. Bolton.

 6        Q.   And what was the -- what was meant, I guess, but closing the

 7     international border?

 8        A.   As we have spoken, there were constant violations of that border,

 9     in terms of men and supplies of a military nature, and otherwise.  And

10     the FRY, in order to have the sanctions lifted or minimised on itself had

11     committed to, in fact, close the international border, and, in effect, to

12     respect the international border between Serbia and Montenegro and the

13     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14        Q.   Was there within the context of the discussions at the Security

15     Council, then, an admission that the border had not been closed up till

16     that point in time?

17        A.   That certainly was implicit and even explicit.  I do not recall

18     though that the FRY ever explicitly acknowledged that point.  But it was

19     acknowledged by all members of the Security Council that that border, in

20     fact, had not been closed.

21        Q.   And what was the reaction to this announcement -- sorry, to their

22     decision both to support the Contact Group, as you think was the case,

23     and to the announcement that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was going

24     to close its border?

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Objection, vague.  Reactions by whom?  There is

Page 7389

 1     no subject.

 2             MS. BOLTON:

 3        Q.   Sorry, sir, what was the reaction within the Security Council to

 4     the decision we've been discussing and their -- their endorsement of the

 5     Contact Group plan.

 6        A.   I do recall that there was at least some optimism reflecting this

 7     announcement, and, in particular, there were extensive discussions in the

 8     work of the Sanctions Committee, regarding how, in fact, this situation

 9     could be also verified.

10        Q.   In terms of the practical decisions that the Security Council

11     takes, could you look at the next page of that same resolution.  And

12     underneath the wording, "Acting under chapter 7 of the Charter of the

13     United Nations," an indication that the Security Council has decided

14     that, firstly, the restrictions imposed by paragraph 7 of Resolution 757

15     are going to be suspended for 100 days; and you can read for yourself,

16     there's a removal of the -- of the prohibition on athletes participating

17     in sporting event, again for a period of 100 days.  And there is also

18     reference to reports that the Secretary-General is going to be receiving

19     about -- to certify that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is complying.

20             My question is, there's reference in this Resolution to the

21     suspension for 100 days of three kinds of sanctions, or three specific

22     sanctions.  What happened -- or what was the status with respect to all

23     the other sanctions that were in place?

24        A.   They were to remain, Ms. Bolton.

25        Q.   What was the position that your government took on the partial

Page 7390

 1     suspension of sanctions at that time?

 2        A.   We had a difficulty with it on several grounds.  One of them is:

 3     We did not believe that there was a sincere acceptance or endorsement of

 4     the Contact Group peace plan.  If I may, just very briefly, a Contact

 5     Group peace plan was supposed to be, quote/unquote, "the final plan."

 6     And we insisted that it would be something that would be adopted by all

 7     sides.  And number 2, we continued to believe that, in fact, the decisive

 8     element for the conflict was coming from Belgrade, either in direct

 9     intervention with its military forces or in direct support for the

10     Pale Serbs.

11        Q.   As -- jumping ahead a little bit here, sir.  As far as your

12     government was concerned, was the border ever actually sealed between the

13     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Serbian forces in Bosnia?

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, unless that question is going to be tied to

15     something else, I object on the grounds of relevance as to whether his

16     government had that belief.

17             MS. BOLTON:  I intend to --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand what is meant by "tied to

19     something else."

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Apparently Ms. Bolton does.  So I'll --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I also have to understand, because I've got to

22     rule.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well.  The question as it is presently put

24     is irrelevant.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question is being challenged on the basis of

Page 7391

 1     relevance, Madam Bolton.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  It is an introduction question, Your Honour, into

 3     the introduction of actual allegations of specific violations of the

 4     border agreement.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With that understanding, the objection will be

 6     withdrawn.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, Madam Bolton.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  I did notice the time.  I don't know what Your

 9     Honours want to do about the breaks.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have been trying to work out, as I listen, how

11     to make the breaks.  And I'm mindful of the fact that I want to us make

12     maximum use of the technology while it allows to do so.  So can I give

13     you an indication in a couple of minutes?

14             MS. BOLTON:  Absolutely.  I have a little bit more to go in this

15     area and then you tell me when you want to break.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I suggest to you that we go to quarter past

17     4.00 and take a break at quarter past 4.00.

18             MS. BOLTON:  Perfect.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Just returning to resolution --

22             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, this 943, if that could be marked as an

23     exhibit, Your Honour?  Oh it already is, sorry, it is D25.

24             THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers]

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

Page 7392

 1             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, as I understand, there was a question

 2     posed to me when the objection came and I did not respond yet.  I'm not

 3     sure if Your Honour would like me to respond.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I certainly would like to you respond,

 5     Mr. Sacirbey, if only Madam Bolton can restate the question.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, I'm sorry.

 7        Q.   My question to you, sir, had been:  Whether, as far as your

 8     government was concerned, whether the border, in fact, between the

 9     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Bosnia was ever, in fact, closed?

10        A.   Not that I am aware, at least not for the period envisioned by

11     there resolution.  May have been a day, may be intermittent.  We

12     continued to receive reports of pretty much constant and consistent

13     violations.

14        Q.   And we're going to go into some examples of that in a moment,

15     sir, but just quickly turning to Resolution 942.  Just wish to have you

16     confirm, sir, that looking at paragraph 6, numbered paragraph 6 that

17     states --

18        A.   Have I that, Ms. Bolton.

19        Q.   States:

20             "Pursuant to this Resolution were to desist from any political

21     talks with the leadership of the Bosnian Serb party, as long as it had

22     not accepted the proposed settlement in full."

23             Did that include the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, sir, or

24     was -- were they excepted from that?

25        A.   It did include, as far as I know, the Federal Republic of

Page 7393

 1     Yugoslavia.

 2        Q.   And the series of sanctions I will just have you confirm, sir,

 3     that are set out in the paragraph 7 and following are directed at the

 4     Bosnian Serb forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, it is, Ms. Bolton, although obviously when we talk of

 6     sanctions directed at the -- in this what is refers to as Bosnian Serbs,

 7     it becomes rather complex, because it also reflects on the territory of

 8     the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Sir, if we could leave that document, please, and I'd like

10     you to turn -- should have a 1995 binder, sir, which has tab 1, and this

11     is 65 ter 8841.  You should have before you proceedings from a meeting of

12     the Security Council from 12th January, 1995.

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Okay.  And with respect to this meeting, sir, we've established

15     that Resolution 943, imposed a partial and temporary suspension of

16     certain sanctions against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  And by my

17     math, that suspension would have been due to expire in January.

18             Can you confirm that one of the items, at least discussed at this

19     meeting, was that -- that 100-day deadline and what was to happen with

20     the sanctions?

21        A.   Yes, I believe that what you have just characterized is accurate.

22     There would be now a review of whether or not, in fact, the desired

23     results were being delivered.

24        Q.   And not going to go through everybody's speeches.  But could you

25     look at the page number 2 of the document that you have in front of you.

Page 7394

 1     And I wish you --

 2        A.   Yes, I -- yes --

 3        Q.   I wish you to confirm that at the bottom of the page, first

 4     column, is an indication of Ambassador Djokic wished to address the

 5     council?

 6        A.   That is correct.

 7        Q.   And in the next column to it, there purports to be a speech by

 8     yourself.  And without going into the details of what you said, again,

 9     can you confirm that's a true copy of the text of the speech that you

10     gave on that occasion?

11        A.   Yes -- I -- yes, I believe it is.

12        Q.   I actually want to ask you some questions about the speech that

13     the Indonesian representative gave on that occasion.  Mr. - and I'm

14     really going to butcher this name - Wisnumurti is that close?

15        A.   That's about as close as, usually, I get.

16        Q.   His speech starts at page 23, and I'd like to you turn to page

17     24, and I'm going to be referring you to a couple of passages and asking

18     you to explain what he was talking about?

19        A.   Let me just make sure I have it.  Yes, I have it.

20        Q.   I'm looking at the second -- starting -- the first full paragraph

21     on that page, says:

22             "Indonesia's principal concern, however, is that despite the

23     report's certification, the government of the Federal Republic of

24     Yugoslavia is continuing to meet its commitment to close its border with

25     the areas of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina under the control of

Page 7395

 1     Bosnian Serb forces.  There have been widespread allegations of

 2     violations in the form of the transportation of strategic materials and

 3     personnel.  Reports of the illegal supply of contraband fuel by the

 4     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to the so-called Krajina Serbs in the

 5     United Nations protected areas in Croatia, as well as Serbian deployment

 6     of surfaced air missiles around the Gorazde, Zepa, and Srebrenica safe

 7     areas, are illustrative of our concern about the extent to which the

 8     border close issue has, in fact, been effected."

 9             He then says:  "The question of the transportation of fuel is

10     included in the latest report of the Mission, but my delegation would

11     have liked to see the question of the alleged supply of air defence

12     systems across the border of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and in

13     areas of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina under Serb forces

14     similarly addressed."

15             Just with respect to this issue, sir, he is talking about an

16     alleged supply of air defence systems.  Were you privy to the information

17     about an air defence system being provided?

18        A.   I was at that time, at least initial reports of it, Ms. Bolton.

19        Q.   What kind of air defence system was it?

20        A.   Ms. Bolton, I have to say that I only learned the full capacity

21     of this air defence system several months later.  What was happening at

22     that time was that, particularly, these three enclaves were being, I'm

23     going to use the word "strangled" in a humanitarian context; and we had

24     again broached the issue as to whether or not airdrops would be possible

25     to resupply these enclaves with essential foodstuffs, medicines, things

Page 7396

 1     of that sort.

 2             So on the one hand, we had a lack of humanitarian assistance

 3     coming in; and right around this time, we also had various outposts of

 4     United Nations protection forces being attacked and in some instances

 5     being taken over by the Serbian forces.

 6             At that time, the United Nations had begun to use the terms and

 7     these are again -- I apologise to the Court if I'm going on a little bit

 8     too long.  But there was a -- there was a distinction made between

 9     air-strikes and air support, and to the extent that air support might be

10     necessary to provide the necessary military assistance to the UN forces,

11     it was always in effect under threat because of these air defence

12     systems.

13        Q.   Let me just stop you there for a second.  You've told us a lot of

14     information, and I need to clarify some of it.

15             When you say you learned about the compatibilities or capacity of

16     this air defendant system several months later, what time-period are we

17     talking about?

18        A.   We were talking about in the late spring/early summer, and I

19     could probably be more precise.  I would say it was right at the end of

20     May that I learned that, in fact, this was an integrated air defence

21     system.  And I believe I learned that fact from the defence minister of

22     the Netherlands --

23        Q.   When you say --

24        A.   -- confirmed to me by several other sources.

25        Q.   You say it is an integrated air defendant system, what did you

Page 7397

 1     understand that to mean?

 2        A.   In fact, that it had no only quite extensive capability in the

 3     military context but that it was controlled from Belgrade.

 4        Q.   You said that you had approached somebody about making airdrops

 5     for humanitarian purposes.  Who had you approached to do that?

 6        A.   The United States government, which had assisted in the past.

 7     Also, at that time, we spoke to the Dutch government, which would be

 8     either, by then, or soon thereafter, moving to take over the -- the --

 9     this enclave, that is Srebrenica.

10             So, in other words, we would speak to governments who had the

11     capability for airdrops.  Those who, in fact, had forces on the ground

12     or, of course, the United Nations itself.  We were very concerned about

13     the humanitarian situation.

14        Q.   And what was the response you received at that time to your

15     request for airdrops of humanitarian aid?

16        A.   The primary impediment seemed to be the fear that these air

17     defence systems would pose a danger, not only to low-flying aircraft but

18     also to very high-flying aircraft.  And the reason that distinction is

19     important, because airdrops presumably can come from a higher altitude.

20     On other hand, if you called in for air support from NATO to protect the

21     position of the UNPROFOR forces that would be, of course, lower flying

22     aircraft.

23        Q.   Did anyone actually agree to make the airdrops that you

24     requested?

25        A.   No, they did not, and the situation continued to deteriorate on

Page 7398

 1     the humanitarian level.

 2        Q.   You said that you had approached the Americans and that had you

 3     heard about this air defence system from various sources, including the

 4     Dutch minister.  Who did you speak to in terms of the Americans?

 5        A.   At that time, the one person -- there were two individuals that I

 6     spoke to:  One was a very high-level Pentagon official, and he was the

 7     individual who we met with two years earlier who, in fact, had authorised

 8     airdrops in the eastern enclaves.  And, actually, the second individual,

 9     I remember very well, his name was Joe Kruzel who was, in August of 1995,

10     killed on Mount Igman.

11        Q.   Do you remember the name of the other gentleman you referred to?

12        A.   I'm embarrassed to say his name just slips me, but he was a very

13     level official who continued to be there for several years.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   It just slips me, Ms. Bolton, I apologise.

16        Q.   Happens to me all the time, sir.

17             Going back to the text of the Indonesian speech, the next

18     paragraph, the Indonesian representative indicates, and this is halfway

19     down the paragraph:

20             "Without wishing in any way to belittle the dedication of the

21     members of the mission, we must recognise that, under the current terms

22     of reference, and given the limitation of resources under which it has to

23     operate its capacity more effectively to ensure compliance by the Federal

24     Republic of Yugoslavia, with its commitments seems to have been

25     compromised."

Page 7399

 1             And, similarly, in the next column, second full paragraph, the

 2     paragraph that starting with:

 3             "My delegation, therefore, has serious reservations regarding the

 4     provision for an extension for a further 100 days of the suspension of

 5     sanctions --"

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down, Ms. Bolton.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, I heard, thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   "... as contained in draft resolution before the Council.

 9     Despite the dedication shown by the members of the Mission, we doubt

10     whether its monitors can effectively police a 450-kilometre border when

11     previous estimates called for a far bigger Mission."

12             What mission was the Indonesian minister referring to?

13        A.   This is the UN mission -- I believe, it actually did have an UN

14     designation, but regardless, it was the mission that was initially

15     envisioned in the London Conference, back in 1992, and evolved in a

16     border-monitoring mission between the FRY, Serbia and Montenegro, and the

17     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It continued to, of course, evolve

18     as resolutions and requirements called.

19        Q.   Is the Indonesian minister accurate when he indicates that they

20     were given fewer resources than had originally been envisioned?

21        A.   That seemed to abdomen constant problem in terms of the UN

22     missions within Bosnia, and particularly this one.

23        Q.   Despite the reservations that were expressed by at least the

24     Indonesian representative, do you recall whether the partial suspension

25     of sanctions was, in fact, extended?

Page 7400

 1        A.   I believe at that time it was.  But subsequently, no.  But I

 2     believe at that time it was.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  First could this --

 5        A.   Again my memory is a little bit vague as to this point, and I

 6     apologise to the Court.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  I will assist you in refreshing your memory, sir, if

 8     need be.  But first let me ask that this document be tendered into

 9     evidence.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

11     given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2480.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MS. BOLTON:

15        Q.   And just to refresh your memory, sir, the next document in that

16     tab should be Resolution 970, and that's already in evidence as Defence

17     Exhibit 26.  And I would refer you to numbered paragraph 1.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And have you confirm that there -- it was agreed that the -- the

20     restrictions would be suspended for a further period of 100 days; is that

21     correct?

22        A.   That is correct.

23        Q.   Okay.  If you could turn, sir -- I want to look at some of the

24     documents then that were forwarded to the United Nations Security Council

25     in the months after that meeting.

Page 7401

 1             Sorry, actually in the months both preceding and after that

 2     meeting.  And if you turn to tab 2 in the 1995 binder, you should have

 3     two documents --

 4        A.   I believe I have that.

 5        Q.   Yes, in front of you.  One is a 65 ter 8842, and it's a letter

 6     from the 7th of February, 1995.

 7        A.   I have that.

 8        Q.   And you have annexed to this letter an article entitled:

 9     "Serbian helicopter flights are one more sign of Bosnia's woes."

10             And then, sir, you have included a complaint in your letter that:

11             "UNMO air field monitors in Surcin, Federal Republic of

12     Yugoslavia, ... were refused access to the radar monitors for the past

13     two days and that later in that same document, the refusal took place at

14     the same time that there wer alleged sightings of helicopter flights in

15     violation of the closed border," or, yes, "of the border."

16             Do you recall this incident, sir?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   Is this a true copy of the text of the original letter that you

19     wrote?

20        A.   Yes, it is.

21        Q.   And you sent it to the president of the Security Council; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   That is correct.

24        Q.   And again it was a document you asked to be circulated as a

25     document of the Security Council.  Was that done?

Page 7402

 1        A.   Yes, it was.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated].

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it not part of -- is it not D26 or Defence

 7     Exhibit 26?

 8             MS. BOLTON:  I don't believe so, Your Honour.  I think Defence

 9     Exhibit 26 was Resolution 740 --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, it is 8840.

11             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, I'm so sorry.  It is admitted into evidence.

13     May it please be given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2481.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

16             MS. BOLTON:

17        Q.   The next document in that next tab, sir, should be 65 ter 8843.

18             Do you have that document, sir?  It's another letter --

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   9th February.  Again, you are complaining about military

21     observers, Srebrenica, citing 62 helicopter sorties on eight separate

22     occasions over a four-day period; and, again, indicating in paragraph 2

23     that, at the time the flights occurred, monitors of the international

24     conferences mission were denied access to radar facilities.

25             Is this the same incident you described in your previous letter

Page 7403

 1     or a separate incident, or do you recall?

 2        A.   I believe, actually, it is a separate incident, but for all I

 3     know, it could be the same.  I understood it to be separate incident.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be tendered as the next exhibit,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it be so marked, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2482.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 9             Madam Bolton.

10             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

11        Q.   In addition to the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, were

12     there other countries also reporting violations of the international

13     border or bring them to the attention, I should say, of the Security

14     Council Resolution?

15        A.   Yes, I understand, there were.

16        Q.   If I could ask you to look at tab 3, you should have document,

17     65 ter 9052 in front of you, dated 28th March, 1995.  And this is -- do

18     you have that document, sir?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   This is a document purports to been written from the permanent

21     representative of Croatia to the United Nations.  And it's first

22     paragraph indicates:

23             "I should like to draw your attention to the enclosed list of 51

24     former officers of the Yugoslav People's Army, JNA, presently

25     commissioned into the Army of Yugoslavia, who have been detached on

Page 7404

 1     active duty to the occupied territories of Croatia.  They continue to be

 2     compensated for their services by the government of the Federal Republic

 3     of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro).  In addition to the highest ranked

 4     professional officers listed in the annex, there are approximately 6.000

 5     other officers and petty officers commissioned in the Army of Yugoslavia

 6     who are detached to the general headquarter of the Serbian Army of

 7     Krajina and other paramilitary units in the occupied territories of

 8     Croatia; of these, there are an additional 30 colonels, 170

 9     lieutenant-colonels and 150 majors."

10             Did you receive a copy of this letter at the time, sir?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   And turning to page 3 of the letter, could you confirm, sir, that

13     the names -- first two names on the list under the heading "General

14     headquarters of the Serbian Army of Krajina," were

15     Lieutenant-General Milan Celeketic and Major-General Dusan Loncar?

16        A.   I can confirm that.

17        Q.   Do you recall whether or not the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

18     responded to this specific allegation at that time?

19        A.   Responded informally or formally, Ms. Bolton?

20        Q.   Yes, in any context.

21        A.   Yes, Ms. Bolton, I had extensive discussions with

22     Ambassador Nobilo on this point, and we did, in fact, also at least try

23     to get a response from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia on this point

24     within the -- within our engagement before the Security Council.

25        Q.   Did you actually succeed in getting a response?

Page 7405

 1        A.   Again, I have to -- I have to try to recall if there was a formal

 2     response and not at that time.  I believe there was.

 3        Q.   To what effect was that response, if you can recall, sir?

 4        A.   It was a general denial of the allegations.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  If this document could be marked as the next

 7     exhibit, please.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We would be objecting to the admission of this

 9     document at this time, based on a number of grounds which I will be more

10     than happy to offer outside the presence of the witness.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

12             MS. BOLTON:  I can't respond to the objection without knowing

13     what the grounds are, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I also find it difficult to rule without knowing

15     the objection -- the grounds of the objection.

16                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Registrar in New York.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Yes, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you able to mute your facility that side such

20     that you don't hear what we say here?

21             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  I certainly can, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do.

23             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

24             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Just one second, Your Honour.

25     Thank you.

Page 7406

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, sorry.

 2             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  That has now been done,

 3     Your Honours.  We can't hear any audio from Courtroom I.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. -- thank you,

 5     Mr. Registrar.

 6             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  To the extent that the information that is

 8     contained in the letter written by Mr. Nobilo from Croatia is being

 9     offered for the truth of the contents therein, there are a number of

10     difficulties with it, because there are a number of conclusions that

11     exist in this letter that are based upon what I -- from what I can tell,

12     are unsourced parties or unsourced information.

13             In addition, with regard to the annex that is attached, there is

14     no indication whatsoever as to where this annex comes from.  There is

15     no -- and here is something I thought I would never say in this

16     particular case, but at least on behalf of Mr. Perisic with regard to the

17     work that I have been doing.  There is no signature, there is no date,

18     there is no stamp, and there is a serious question as to whether or not

19     this document is an authentic document, other than being a list that was

20     created by the gentleman who prepared the original letter.

21             In the absence of further authentication with regard to the

22     annex, as well as information concerning the hearsay allegations that are

23     contained within the letter itself, I would object with admission.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sorry, I was referring to something that was

Page 7407

 1     occurring during the break which -- has to do with who the witness is

 2     talking to.  There's nothing I can do about that.

 3             That's my submission.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] I'm trying to

 6     understand what Mr. Guy-Smith was saying here.

 7             I don't know what he is talking about -- which break are you

 8     talking about?

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm talking about the break in the proceedings at

10     this point since the witness is not in a position to hear what is being

11     said, apparently he was having a conversation with somebody in the room

12     during the period of time that we were engaged in the argument.

13             It's a separate issue to the issue of my objection, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Let's not trouble ourselves with that issue at

16     this time, whether or not -- whether or not there has been or has not

17     been a violation of the reports or -- that's a different issue.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, thank you.  Thank you.

19             Yes, Madam Bolton.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.  First, just with respect to that issue, there

21     is no prohibition minister -- Sacirbey speaking to other people during

22     the break, it's just on certain topics he can't.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm surprised to hear that there isn't violation

24     of the court order.  I was wondering which court order.

25             MS. BOLTON:  I don't know.  In any event, moving to my friend's

Page 7408

 1     objection, the -- first of all, I indicate that this is one document and

 2     we're going to be introducing a subsequent document, which I will think

 3     will clarify, to some extent, the sources of the information with respect

 4     to the payroll -- sorry the lists of officers.  You're going to be

 5     hearing evidence that they discovered payroll lists of officers

 6     commissioned when they re-took territory in Western Slavonia.

 7             Secondly, the fact that there is unsourced hearsay evidence, goes

 8     to weight and not to admissibility.

 9             Thirdly --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand that part of the objection:

11     Unsourced hearsay.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might, Your Honour.  Based upon what

13     Ms. Bolton has said thus far that there is going to be other evidence,

14     what I would suggest we do is we mark this exhibit for identification at

15     this time, and then if the other evidence which the Prosecution, at this

16     point, asserts they will be adducing does come before the Chamber, then

17     we can revisit this particular issue.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

19             MS. BOLTON:  That's agreeable, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

21     please be given an exhibit number and be marked for identification.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2483, marked

23     for identification.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             Yes, Madam Bolton.

Page 7409

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Should we take our recess now, Your Honour?  It's

 2     4.15.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's take our recess now and come back at quarter

 4     to 5.00.

 5             Court adjourned.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Your Honour, if I -- if I --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] ... in New York.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 4.15 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 4.48 p.m.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the record show that the Registrar advises

11     that, during the break, the people in New York have been reconnected on

12     audio.  They are now with us in court.

13             Madam Bolton.

14             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  That is correct, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Registrar.  Yes, Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  For the purposes of the record,

17     Your Honours, I just wanted to indicate that we can hear you, so I have

18     un-muted the volume, so we can hear you now.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can hear us.

20             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Yes, Your Honours.  Because

21     before the break, I was instructed to un-mute -- to have the volume

22     muted, so for the purposes of the record and for Your Honours, I want the

23     to indicate that we can hear you now.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Registrar.

25             Madam Bolton.

Page 7410

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Sir, earlier in the your evidence -- sorry, sir.

 3             Earlier in the your evidence we were talking about the fact that

 4     there had been a vote in January 1995 on a resolution to extend the

 5     suspension of the sanctions for a further 100 days.  I would like to look

 6     now at the next discussion on 21st of April of this issue of 1995.  And

 7     you should find the record of that United Nations Security Council

 8     meeting at tab 6 of the volume you have.  And that is 65 --

 9             MS. BOLTON:  I believe it is already in evidence as -- sorry.  My

10     apologies, Your Honour.

11             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Your Honours, that's indicated

12     here as 65 ter 08849.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, sir.

14        Q.   You have that document then before you, sir?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   And if you would turn to pages 2 and 3 of that document?

17        A.   I'm there.

18        Q.   Okay.  There was -- I'm going to suggest a discussion, according

19     to page 2 of a draft resolution.  I'm going to suggest that the draft

20     resolution had to do with whether the partial suspension of the sanctions

21     should be extended.

22             Am I correct or incorrect?

23        A.   I believe you are correct, Ms. Bolton.

24        Q.   And looking at the text in front of you, there appears to be a

25     speech that was given by Mr. Djokic; is that correct?

Page 7411

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   I have a couple of passages I want to refer you to, starting on

 3     page 3, the very stop of the page:

 4             "By opting to maintain the greatest part of the most

 5     comprehensive sanctions regime adopted against any state member of the

 6     United Nations, the Security Council is continuing to pursue the policy

 7     of punishment against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Serbian

 8     and Montenegrin people, the things for which they bear no responsibility

 9     and which are out of their control."

10             What did Mr. Djokic wish to see happen, in terms of the

11     sanctions.

12        A.   For all of the sanctions to be lifted.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note from the French booth:  We

15     can hardly hear the witness.  We can hardly hear him.  I don't know if

16     that is the case for the other booths as well.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sorry, I don't have --

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Can you hear us now?

19             THE INTERPRETER:  We hear you very faintly from the French booth,

20     in the French booth.  I don't know if that's the case with all the

21     booths.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Apparently the stenographer hears them also

23     faintly.  I must admit I don't hear them as well as I heard them before

24     the break.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Could you test -- speak, Testing 1, 2, 3, for a

Page 7412

 1     moment, Mr. Sacirbey?

 2             THE WITNESS:  We just turned off the fan.  So hopefully this

 3     makes it a little bit better.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Not really as far as the French interpreters or

 6     the French booth goes.  Same.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Could you try again, sir, just say something.

 8             THE WITNESS:  I can certainly speak louder if that preferable.  I

 9     don't have any problem doing that.  Is this okay with you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's find out.  Madam Interpreter?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, that's fine.  Thank you very much, Your

12     Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Stenographer?

14             THE COURT REPORTER:  [Microphone not activated]

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You did?

16             THE COURT REPORTER: [Microphone not activated]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You got to be sure that you are hearing because

18     you got to be able to type what he says.

19             THE COURT REPORTER:  It's quite different from before the break,

20     the volume.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but this last time now when he --

22             THE COURT REPORTER:  I did notice a difference.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You did notice a difference.  I guess that's going

24     to be a problem because then we don't have a record.

25             MS. BOLTON:  That is a problem, Your Honour.

Page 7413

 1             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, can I try again?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Sacirbey.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, can I try again?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do try again.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Obviously, because -- yes, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,

 6     9, 10.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you hear that Madam Stenographer.

 8             THE COURT REPORTER: [Microphone not activated].

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Say that again.

10             THE COURT REPORTER:  Yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You could hear.

12             And in the French booth?

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Not exactly perfect, but we could, I guess.

14             THE WITNESS:  If Your Honour will remind me to speak loudly at

15     any point in time there is a problem, I certainly would welcome it.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand and thank you very much for your very

17     kind offer, Mr. Sacirbey.  The only problem is that when the one hears

18     you, the other doesn't hear you, and it keeps flip flopping like that.  I

19     see the volume being increase.  Can you test again?

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.  I'm speaking

21     loudly now.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Madam Stenographer?

23             THE COURT REPORTER:  [Microphone not activated]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  French booth.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, thank you very much, Your Honour, it's

Page 7414

 1     much better.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Maybe a bit softer.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  [Overlapping speakers]

 4             Madam Bolton.

 5             MS. BOLTON:

 6        Q.   I think, sir, that you don't need to speak as loudly as you were.

 7     I think we have adjusted the volume on this end, okay?

 8        A.   Thank you.

 9        Q.   I'm just looking, Your Honour, to make sure that everybody is

10     okay.  Sir, we were talking then about the position that the Federal

11     Republic of Yugoslavia, what Mr. Djokic was asking to happen with the

12     sanctions, and I'm not sure if your answer was heard, so perhaps you

13     could repeat it.

14        A.   Yes.  For all the sanctions to be lifted with respect to the FRY

15     Serbia and Montenegro.

16        Q.   Continuing on the next page, he then indicates the first full

17     paragraph -- I'm sorry it's the same page, page 3 but the second column

18     says:

19             "The new conditions being set by some members of the Contact

20     Group especially for the calls for the recognition by the Federal

21     Republic of Yugoslavia of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Republic of

22     Croatia as a prerequisite for the further suspension of sanctions, not

23     only lack any basis in the Security Council resolutions by which the

24     sanctions were introduced but also represent a false counterproductive

25     form of pressure.  The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is not prepared to

Page 7415

 1     make the same grave mistake committed by the international community and

 2     recognise the separatist republics before the fundamental problem have

 3     been resolved between the peoples living in them."

 4             We've touched on this before, sir, but how does this position

 5     compare with the position that Mr. Djokic had taken on the issue of

 6     recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina up until that point in time?

 7        A.   First of all, it is consistent that they refused to recognise

 8     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And second of all, actually, it goes one step

 9     further in referring to the separatist republics.

10        Q.   On the same page, sir, in the same -- second column, he goes on

11     to say, and this is the third full paragraph that:

12             "The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is constantly being subjected

13     to provocations and absurd allegations that it is supplying the Bosnian

14     Serbs with military materiel."

15             How does that position, taken on that date, compare with the

16     position he had taken on this issue up until that point in time?

17        A.   As we have noted, there was a general denial almost on any

18     occasion of the FRY providing military goods or personnel to the war

19     effort.  This was consistent with the previous of denials and constant.

20        Q.   I want to refer you briefly to a portion of the speech given on

21     that date by the Botswana representative.  And that occurs on page 11.

22             Have you found that text, sir?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   Starting -- it's the fourth paragraph of his address I want to

25     ask you about:

Page 7416

 1             "It's common knowledge, however, that it is not an easy task to

 2     seal a border between two countries totally, even at the best of times.

 3     There is no denying that weapons and ammunition must be reaching Bosnian

 4     Serbs through the porous border.  We will never know, of course, the

 5     extent to which transshipments of weapons have been carried out.  It is,

 6     however, impossible to doubt that weapons are reaching the territory of

 7     Bosnia under the control of Serb forces undetected:  The unexplained and

 8     seeming inexplicable cross border helicopter movements.  The large

 9     vehicle traffics along the border and the lack of protection for the

10     Mission staff, who have, on occasion, been forced to flee under fire all

11     suggest that the border is not sealed at all times and that arms supplies

12     must be reaching the Bosnian Serb forces."

13             Do you know what he was referring to when he talked about large

14     vehicle tracks along the border?

15        A.   Yes, as in a few instances when the Observer Mission was not

16     given access to radar stations, there were also other instance where, in

17     fact, they were scared off or denied access to keep crossing points.  So,

18     obviously, violations of the border could not be reported if there was no

19     one there to report then, and in this instance, there were indications

20     that large vehicles had crossed the border, not on the basis,

21     necessarily, of actually seeing those vehicles, but in fact seeing the

22     marks left by those vehicles.

23        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

24             MS. BOLTON:  I asked that this be tendered into evidence,

25     Your Honour.

Page 7417

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 2     given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will be Exhibit P2484.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

 5             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  And if I could have displayed for the witness,

 7     please, Exhibit D27.

 8        Q.   Which, sir, you should find right behind the 21st April, 1995, UN

 9     SC proceedings that we were just discussing.  It is it Resolution 988?

10        A.   Yes, I have that.  Yes, I have that, Ms. Bolton.

11        Q.   Looking at the text of this document, I will just have you

12     confirm that concern was expressed in paragraph 3 about helicopter

13     flights.

14        A.   I'm sorry Ms. Bolton was there a question?  I missed it.

15        Q.   No, just -- I'm going to ask the question now:  Is this the --

16        A.   Okay.

17        Q.   -- helicopter flights that we have been speaking about up to this

18     point in time?

19        A.   I believe so, Ms. Bolton.

20        Q.   Were those flights, do you recall, investigated?  The allegation

21     about the flights?

22        A.   Yes.  There seemed to be an investigation that went beyond just

23     kind of a normal glossing over.  What I mean by that is the question was

24     asked why, in fact, were not the observers allowed to be at their posts.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I will return to that in a moment.  And could I just

Page 7418

 1     have you look at the first numbered paragraph on page 2.  We had seen in

 2     the text previously that Mr. Djokic had been calling for elimination of

 3     all sanctions.

 4             What did the United Nations in fact do with respect to the

 5     sanctions?

 6        A.   They remained in place by and large.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And looking at paragraph 1, it would appear that the

 8     suspensions that were -- or partial suspensions that was already in place

 9     was to continue in effect until 5th, July, 1995; is that correct?

10        A.   That is correct, more or less the status quo.

11        Q.   If you could turn to the next document in that same tab.  You

12     should have 65 ter 6076.  And we have reproduced pages 1 to 7 only

13     without the annexes, and this document is on the letterhead of the

14     International Conference on the former Yugoslavia with a title inquiry

15     into unexplained radar traces.

16             Have you had the opportunity at any point in time, sir, to read

17     this report?

18        A.   The substance of it is familiar.  Honestly, I cannot recall

19     whether I have actually seen the report itself.  But the substance is

20     very much familiar to me.

21        Q.   Okay.  I'll ask you about some of the passages then and can you

22     indicate whether you can or are -- or are not in a position to answer.

23             Do you recall -- I'm look specifically at the findings section

24     which is the very last page, page 4, number page 4 on the bottom, where

25     the signatures of five individuals occur?

Page 7419

 1        A.   Yes, I have that.

 2        Q.   Okay.  The first paragraph they're talking about the radar

 3     systems capabilities at someplace called Surcin or Surcin airport.  Where

 4     is that airport, in what country?

 5        A.   The FRY.

 6        Q.   Did the mission have its own radar facilities to assist in

 7     monitoring the border?

 8        A.   As far as I am aware, there was no -- no such capacity.

 9        Q.   Was there any equipment available to monitor the border within

10     the borders of -- for -- sorry, sir, let me strike that.

11             Let me move on, sir, just to the last -- 17 and 18 talk about the

12     unexplained traces that they call it and use the words "give rise to

13     suspicion."  And they characterize the incident of 6 April 1995 as highly

14     suspicious.  Ultimately, are they able to make any other finding other

15     than characterizing it as highly suspicious?

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That is actually a mischaracterization of the

17     findings.

18             MS. BOLTON:  I'm quoting from paragraph 18.  The incident on 6 --

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  When you say ultimately.  Fine, I leave it for a

20     moment.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I thought you were referring to the findings in

23     their entirety.  I withdraw what I said.

24             MS. BOLTON:

25        Q.   Sorry, sir, I will rephrase my question.

Page 7420

 1             The finding in paragraph 18 is that there were no other

 2     information available to prove that any of the unexplained radar traces

 3     were helicopters crossing the border:  "However, the incident on 6

 4     April 1995 was considered highly suspicious."

 5             Is that -- does that accord with your recollection, sir?

 6        A.   That is correct.  You asked me if there were any other sources

 7     of -- for this type of radar information.  I would just like to highlight

 8     that there may have been other nation states that had their own access.

 9             Of course, I was not privy to that nor do I know if, in fact, the

10     monitoring mission was privy to that.  So there may have been input

11     beyond the scope that I'm aware of here.

12        Q.   The paragraph I'm most interested in, sir, is the next paragraph,

13     paragraph 19.  Which reads:

14             "The ICFY monitor mission, particularly at its current manning

15     level, does not have the compatibility to monitor effectively the closure

16     of the air border."

17             Did that situation change at all in the wake of this report?

18        A.   Ms. Bolton, as -- less than a month later, I would receive

19     information of Serbian forces crossing the border.  This information

20     came, as far as I know, from national sources.  I'm not sure if it was

21     not --

22                           [Technical difficulty]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you handing over to me?

24             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, I don't have a connection anymore.  Do you?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't.

Page 7421

 1             MS. BOLTON:  If we could try reconnecting.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think Madam Registrar is trying that.  Let's

 3     see.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 5             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Ms. Bolton can you hear us?

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, yes, we seem to have re-established contact,

 7     sir.

 8        Q.   Can you hear me?

 9        A.   Yes, I can.  I don't know when my answer was cut off, but very

10     briefly, within a month, less than a month of this date, I did receive

11     information from other sources, national sources; in this case, the

12     government of the Netherlands, the defence minister, who had received

13     information that there were military personnel and goods coming in from

14     Serbia and Montenegro.  Whether this information was available to the

15     United Nations Monitoring Mission, or whether, in fact, it came itself

16     from the UN Monitoring Mission, I'm is it not sure.  Subsequent, I only

17     heard rumours, and again they are rumours, that they came from central

18     intelligence sources.  So that is my best answer to your question right

19     now.

20        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.

21             MS. BOLTON:  If this could be marked as the next exhibit, please.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I have no objection to it at all.  I would

23     suggest the entirety of the document go.  I understand it is only a

24     partial document, but since the findings are predicated upon the annexes,

25     it would make sense that the Chamber has available to it the specific

Page 7422

 1     information contained in the annexes.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Can I tell that you the witness doesn't have the

 3     annexes available to him, certainly in paper form, so I would just ask

 4     that the document, as it appears for now, be marked as an exhibit.  And

 5     if my friend has -- wishes in cross-examination to refer to the annexes,

 6     he can make those materials available to the witness.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say the document as it appears in its

 8     entirety or only the pages that you referred to at the beginning of

 9     this --

10             MS. BOLTON:  Just pages 1 to 7 which is what the witness has in

11     front of him.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't think there any dispute between the

13     parties that the balance of the document and the appendixes that were

14     forwarded to the Defence by the Prosecution are, in fact, an accurate

15     reflection of what the document, in its entirety, is.

16             If need be, I will figure a way of uploading the balance of the

17     document and showing him each and every page thereafter.  But that

18     doesn't seem to be a particularly good use of time and under the doctrine

19     of complete principle, it would make sense for the entire document to go

20     in.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  But we do have guidelines which suggest that

22     if the entire document is not being used, we must just admit those pages

23     that are being used.

24             I think, therefore, that if we admit what Madam Bolton is

25     tendering, we will also add to that exhibit what you may raise from the

Page 7423

 1     rest of the documents during your cross-examination.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The difficulty that I have with -- with the

 3     proposed method of accepting this exhibit is as follows:  The report

 4     findings in analysis are based upon hard data which is attached to the

 5     report.

 6             When the witness is responding to the report's findings and

 7     the -- and other information that's contained within the first seven

 8     pages that is necessarily including the annexes.  So in fact, the witness

 9     is, if not directly, certainly indirectly, dealing with those particular

10     pages.

11             I mean, it seems to me to be a sensible way of doing it.  As I

12     said earlier, under the doctrine of completeness, that way the Chamber

13     has before it, the entire document, has the witness's responses to the

14     entire document, and is in a position to objectively, rationally, and

15     reasonably deal with the issue.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I don't see how -- where the witness refers

17     to annexes, number one.  I don't know how many pages this constitutes.

18     And unless I know the number of pages, I don't think I can accede to this

19     request.

20             Seventy-three pages, when only seven pages have been used.  I

21     would suggest that -- I rule that, in fact --

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With that --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We accept what is tendered and whatever else comes

24     to [Overlapping speakers] ...

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could I asked to be marked for identification, at

Page 7424

 1     this time ... [Overlapping speakers]

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If could you allow me to finish to speak,

 3     Mr. Guy-Smith, we will then go quicker.  If you interrupt me, then we

 4     won't finish.

 5             I was saying, I think we should admit the seven pages, and any

 6     additional pages that come later, can be admitted into the same exhibit

 7     as and when they are tendered at that time.  I don't think it is prudent

 8     out of the 73-page document where only seven pages are being used to

 9     admit an entire 73 pages.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I understand what you said, Your Honour, and I

11     thank you for the opportunity to have this particular exhibit become a

12     complete exhibit under a doctrine, which I think is fundamental to a fair

13     determination.  And I would point out to the Court that at a point in

14     time when this case finally comes to you, you will find there are many,

15     many, many documents in which the number of pages that have been used, as

16     opposed to the number of pages which have been admitted are the

17     difference between chalk and cheese.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  I repeat my ruling by reference.

19             May it please be given an exhibit number.

20                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  First seven pages of 65 ter 6076 will become

22     Exhibit P2485.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             Madam Bolton.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7425

 1        Q.   Sir, if could you turn to tab 10 in the binder before you.  You

 2     should have 65 ter 9057 before you?

 3        A.   Yes, I do have that in front of me.

 4        Q.   It's a letter from the 19th May, 1995, permanent representative

 5     of Croatia, where the permanent representative writes:

 6             "Following the restoration of the Croatian authority in the

 7     Western Slavonia region, I should like to inform you that the law

 8     enforcement authorities of the Republic of Croatia have discovered

 9     payroll lists of officers commissioned in the Army of Yugoslavia that

10     have been detached on active duty to the occupied territories of Croatia.

11     The 18th Corps of the so-called Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina

12     in Okucani (unit identification number 9162) has consistently forwarded

13     its payroll lists to the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia in

14     Belgrade."

15             And the next paragraph starts -- says:

16             "The said list include the name of" -- and then there's a series

17     of names, and ends with the words, "This is but a small sample of

18     Yugoslav commissioned officers."

19             Could you confirm whether you received a copy of this letter in

20     18th May, 1995.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honour, my screen has lost the

22     connection again.  Is that true for everyone?

23             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Second time it has dropped.  But

24     the [indiscernible] is back.

25             THE WITNESS:  We are back.

Page 7426

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Okay.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I didn't hear your question, Ms. Bolton.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  You didn't hear the question at all?

 4             THE WITNESS:  I did hear your question, Ms. Bolton.

 5             MS. BOLTON:

 6        Q.   Okay.  Can you confirm whether you received this letter then?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,

 9     Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

11     given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2486, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             MS. BOLTON:

15        Q.   In that same tab, sir, if you would skip forward one document,

16     you should find a document, 65 ter 9051.  It's a telefax message page it

17     starts with?

18        A.   Yes, I see that, Ms. Bolton.

19        Q.   And it should be a letter dated 28th June, 1995, from the

20     Republic of Croatia, addressed to the then Secretary-General Boutros

21     Boutros-Ghali?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.

23        Q.   Do you recall whether or not this document - and take a moment to

24     review it, if you need to - was circulated to yourself?

25        A.   Ms. Bolton, I should remind you, at that time, that I had taken

Page 7427

 1     over the post of the foreign minister of Bosnia and Herzegovina, so I may

 2     not have been, at that time, present in New York nor receiving them

 3     directly, but I am aware of the document.

 4        Q.   Okay.  How did you become aware of it; do you recall?

 5        A.   Yes.  Almost any document that came to the United Nations still

 6     ultimately was forwarded to me.  What I cannot necessarily tell whether

 7     it was forwarded as a document of the Security Council or a document of

 8     the United Nations Secretary-General's office.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And what would the difference be in terms of whether

10     particularly a copy would have been given to the Federal Republic of

11     Yugoslavia?

12        A.   There would be a document, generally a short introductory page

13     saying that this document is being circulated as a document of either the

14     Security Council or General Assembly or the Secretary General's office.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you on the same page as the witness?

16             MS. BOLTON:  No, I think I need to clarify that point with him.

17        Q.   Sorry sir.  Is there any means of telling if this was document

18     was or was not circulated to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

19        A.   What I find on the front page is it says:  "Please find attached

20     a letter of Mr. Granic sent to Secretary-General of UN on June 28, 1995."

21             That does not necessarily mean that, in fact, it would have been

22     circulated as a document of the United Nations or the Secretary-General's

23     office.

24        Q.   Do you know whether or not copies would have gone to the members

25     of the Security Council?

Page 7428

 1        A.   It would be very likely.  In fact, I would feel very comfortable

 2     in saying yes, but I cannot be 100 percent sure on the basis of the

 3     document that I see in front of me.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be tendered as the next exhibit,

 6     please, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 8     given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2487.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             Yes, Madam Bolton.

12             MS. BOLTON:

13        Q.   This next document, sir, is -- should be found at tab 10 as well.

14     And should be the second-last document in that tab, a meeting of the

15     Security Council, July 5th, 1995.

16             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, the 65 ter number is 8862.

17             THE WITNESS:  I have that.

18             MS. BOLTON:

19        Q.   Okay.  I don't wish to go into much detail about this, sir, other

20     than to have you confirm that this document is a true record of the

21     proceedings that date?

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be tendered as the next exhibit,

24     please.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

Page 7429

 1     number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2488.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 4             MS. BOLTON:

 5        Q.   Again, sir, would you just confirm that the subject of discussion

 6     at that meeting was what should happen with the partial suspension of the

 7     sanctions?

 8        A.   That is correct.

 9        Q.   And on that occasion, I'm going to suggest that you spoke, the

10     Croatian representative spoke, and Mr. Djokic spoke.

11        A.   That is correct.

12        Q.   Okay.  And if you would just turn to the last document in that

13     tab, you should have Defence Exhibit 28.  And that should be

14     Resolution 1003, 5th July, 1995?

15        A.   Right.

16        Q.   The Security Council includes, on the first page, the language:

17             "Underlining the particular importance it attaches to there being

18     no provision of military assistance, in terms of finance, equipment,

19     coordinates or air defences or recruitment of troops to the Bosnian Serb

20     forces."

21             And then goes on, on the next page, at paragraph 1 to decide that

22     the restrictions and other measures referred to in paragraph 1 of

23     Resolution 943 shall be suspended until 18th September, 1995.

24             You were, at this time, I think -- did you indicate foreign

25     minister at this point in time?

Page 7430

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Were you -- I take it you would not then have been present

 3     at the -- well, no, sorry you were present at this session because you

 4     gave a speech.  Sorry.

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6        Q.   Do you recall -- do you recall the conversation or the discussion

 7     around the inclusion of the language where the Security Council talks

 8     about the importance of there being no provision of military assistance,

 9     et cetera?

10        A.   I do.  And it was a special concern, because a month earlier, I

11     had receive reports of Serbian forces from Serbia and Montenegro amassing

12     around Srebrenica.  I'm referring to the intelligence source that I just

13     mentioned a few minutes earlier.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry, I'm unclear as to which intelligence

16     source that is.  At one point, he said central intelligence, at another

17     point, he mentioned the Pentagon.  I'm not sure.  Is he talking about

18     something else?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, I'm clear, but I'll -- I have no difficulty.

21        Q.   The person or person who is first told you about troops amassing

22     in the area around Srebrenica, do you recall who that was?

23        A.   Yes.  It was Defence Minister Voorhoeve, of the Netherlands, and

24     we had met during a meeting of the peacekeeping countries in Paris at the

25     very end of May /beginning of June.  It was a two-day meeting.

Page 7431

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you very much for that accommodation.

 2             THE WITNESS:  The reference to the CIA was what his sources of

 3     information may have been and only subsequent to that, and very long time

 4     later, did someone mention that that was his source.  So I apologise for

 5     any confusion to the Court.

 6             MS. BOLTON:

 7        Q.   Okay.  The remaining sanctions against the Federal Republic of

 8     Yugoslavia, do you recall at what point in time it was that those

 9     remaining -- the bulk of the sanctions were actually lifted?

10        A.   Yes, Ms. Bolton, there were several steps to be pursued in

11     conjunction with the signing and adoption and implementation of the

12     Dayton Agreement, including, in particular, the issue of mutual

13     recognition.

14        Q.   So am I understanding you correctly that it was only after there

15     was recognition and the signing of the Dayton Accord that these sanctions

16     were lifted?

17        A.   The [indiscernible] of mutual recognition was the most critical

18     point.  That is correct, Ms. Bolton.

19        Q.   And could I just have you identify, for the purpose of record,

20     the document at tab 32, which is 65 ter 6781.01, Resolution 1022?

21        A.   I have that, Ms. Bolton.

22        Q.   Okay.  Is that the resolution affected or set out the conditions

23     and timing of the lifting of the remaining sanctions that you've been

24     discussing?

25        A.   I believe it is.  I believe it was something that was discussed

Page 7432

 1     in -- ahead of time in Dayton as well.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 5     number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P2489.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

 8             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Sir, I wish to now move forward, thankfully, to 1995.  There's

11     going to be four topics I'm going to discuss with you in respect of 1995.

12     First topic is going to be Sarajevo; second topic is going to be Zagreb;

13     the third topic will be Srebrenica; and briefly we will touch on Dayton,

14     okay?

15        A.   I'm there.

16        Q.   Okay.  We have talked about, in respect of Sarajevo, the

17     situation through 1994 up until the fall, and you have told us in your

18     testimony to date, that in the fall of 1994 or late -- I think you said

19     late summer that the cease-fire had fallen apart and that there was

20     renewed shell and sniper attacks.

21             Could you -- from the fall of 1994 or late summer 1994 through to

22     the end of war, was there any landing cease-fire in respect of Sarajevo

23     at any point in time?

24        A.   No, Ms. Bolton.

25        Q.   You told us earlier in your evidence that you had occasion to

Page 7433

 1     visit Sarajevo during the war.  Approximately how many times did you

 2     visit the city?

 3        A.   I would say approximately ten.  In particular, during the latter

 4     part of the war, 1994/1995, I was there more frequently.

 5        Q.   And why is it that you were there more frequently at that point?

 6        A.   Number one my responsibilities had expanded, as just in

 7     consistent with my duties as ambassador to the UN, agent before the

 8     International Court of Justice, working with the war crimes tribunal.

 9     But when I became foreign minister, then I think I should be clear, I was

10     in Sarajevo in and out constantly; and, therefore, that number ten would

11     be, by far, much higher.  So let me please correct my answer.  Until the

12     time I became foreign minister, which was at the very end of May, I had

13     visited Sarajevo approximately ten times.  After that, it was almost

14     constant.

15        Q.   Just want to ask you very briefly about your personal experiences

16     an observations, in terms of shelling.  And to do that, I want to refer

17     you to a couple of documents.

18             Tab 8 in the binder you have before you.  You should find a

19     letter, 65 ter number 8850?

20        A.   What was the document number, Ms. Bolton?

21        Q.   Tab 8 is where I think you should find it as the first document.

22        A.   Okay.  We have that.

23        Q.   Is this a letter that you wrote, sir, dated 9th May, 1995?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25        Q.   Okay.  And this was a letter addressed to the Security Council?

Page 7434

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And what did you describe in this letter, sir?

 3        A.   I described the particular incident where I was supposed to come

 4     into Sarajevo and to receive the benefit of the protection of the United

 5     Nations Protection Force.  As we were coming in over Mount Igman, there

 6     was intensive fire that seemed to anticipate my arrival and the arrival

 7     of what, then, was Vice-President Ejup Ganic.  The UN force,

 8     subsequently, informed my team that was coming in, that, in fact, they

 9     were too concerned - I don't want to use the work afraid - but too

10     concerned about the fire, and that they did not wish to risk their

11     personnel, to send up an armoured personnel carrier to Sarajevo -- to

12     send an armoured personnel carrier from Sarajevo to Mount Igman.  At that

13     point in time, because of the urgency of the matters I got out of the

14     vehicle and came down on foot, down Mount Igman, at which time there

15     continued to be firing and shelling upon our position; and,

16     unfortunately, in one rather memorable moment, a shell came over our

17     heads and landed just on the other side of a hill, and, as we found out

18     later, had hit an innocent woman who was up in the mountains gathering

19     wood and who had the side of her torso, in effect, torn apart.

20             Unfortunately, the woman did not survive.  Obviously I faired

21     better, and moved down the mountain, moved down foot into -- toward the

22     tunnel and came through the tunnel into Sarajevo.

23             That personal experience, though, had a much broader relevance

24     which was that, in fact, the United Nations -- the United Nations

25     Protection Force was not able to control the entry of personnel,

Page 7435

 1     including diplomatic personnel such as myself, but most importantly of

 2     goods and even of its own personnel.  In fact, the United Nations by then

 3     had --

 4        Q.   Sorry, you're getting off topic on me.

 5        A.   Okay.  No problem.

 6        Q.   My question, with respect to this incident, sir, was:  Were there

 7     any military personnel as part of your convoy or accompaniment?

 8        A.   No, there were not.

 9        Q.   Any military targets in the vicinity in which you were

10     travelling?

11        A.   Not that I am aware of.

12             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please,

13     Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

15     number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2490.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

18             Madam Bolton.

19             MS. BOLTON:

20        Q.   I want to refer to you a second document at tab 11.  If you would

21     just turn forward, please, you should have 65 ter 8861.

22        A.   I have that.

23        Q.   And that should be a letter, 27th June, 1995, from your

24     charge d'affaires to which was annexed a letter from yourself?

25        A.   That is correct.

Page 7436

 1        Q.   Could I just have you confirm, sir, that you authored this

 2     letter?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   And does it accurately reflect the observations that you were

 5     making at that time?

 6        A.   Yes, I was.  In the context of what was supposed to be the

 7     exclusion zone of Sarajevo, yes.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please,

 9     Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so marked.  May be it please be given a

11     number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2491.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

14             Madam Bolton.

15             MS. BOLTON:

16        Q.   Yes, sir, if you could turn back to tab 8, again, please.  You

17     should have a series --

18        A.   We're there, Ms. Bolton.

19        Q.   Yes.  A series of four documents that starts with 65 ter 8851,

20     which is a letter dated 12th May 1995.  And with respect to the

21     subsequent document, you should have 65 ter 8852; 65 ter 8853, which is a

22     letter dated 24th May 1995?

23             Do you have those three documents, sir?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   With respect to each of these documents, could you simply confirm

Page 7437

 1     the authenticity of these documents, that they are, in fact, letters

 2     written either by yourself or the persons cited in the letters?

 3        A.   Yes, they are.

 4        Q.   And, again, sir, each of these documents indicates the request

 5     that they be circulated as documents either of both the General Assembly

 6     and Security Council or the Security Council.  To the best of your

 7     knowledge were they so circulated?

 8        A.   Yes, they were.

 9        Q.   And generally each of these letters pertains to events in

10     Sarajevo; is that fair, sir?

11        A.   I believe it is.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Could each of those documents be introduced into

13     evidence, please, Your Honour.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I certainly don't have a problem with that.  I

15     don't know whether or not the Chamber has had an opportunity to see them

16     all.  The only one I see on the screen is the -- I believe the first one,

17     which is 65 ter 8851.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In the meantime, can we accept 8851 into evidence

19     and give it a number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit P2492.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Have we now seen 8852 on the screen?  Is that it,

22     that we see on the screen.

23             MS. BOLTON:  I don't know ... [Microphone not activated]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is anybody able to tell me.

25             MR. HARMON:

Page 7438

 1             MS. BOLTON:  That is the document, sir.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  It's admitted into evidence.

 3     May it please be given an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It will become Exhibit P2493, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we now see 8853.

 6             Is that it?  Thank you.

 7             May it please be given a number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  It will become Exhibit P2494, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

10             Yes, Madam Bolton.

11             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   The last document in that tab, sir, should be a letter dated 1st

13     June 1995, 65 ter 88 -- oh, sorry.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Brief indulgence [Overlapping speakers] ...

15     Mr. Registrar, I think I've given you the wrong 65 ter number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  It is 0885.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... sorry.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] For the 1st of June, Ms. Bolton, I

19     have here 08858.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, that is actually not the document I wanted;

21     sorry.

22        Q.   If you could flip back in that tab, sir, to 65 ter 8856, should

23     be a letter dated 30th May, 1995?

24             MS. BOLTON:  We could display it electronically, if that assists.

25             THE WITNESS:  If you prefer, Ms. Bolton, I'll be fine with that.

Page 7439

 1             MS. BOLTON:  If I could ask the Registrar here to do that, if she

 2     can, please.

 3             THE WITNESS:  I think we have it, according to the Registrar in

 4     front of me.

 5             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Dated 30th of May, 1995,

 6     Ms. Bolton.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  That's correct.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Am I having problems?  I don't seem to see a

 9     date -- I see a letter that says --

10             MS. BOLTON:  No, Your Honour is right.  I'm looking at the

11     date --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Now I have seen it.

13             MS. BOLTON:

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.  That should be a letter annexed, in the annex

15     from Hasan Muratovic and he, in his letter, describes some conditions in

16     the city of Sarajevo.

17        A.   Yes, that is correct.

18        Q.   Yes, if you can look at the contents of that letter and just

19     confirm for me whether or not that information, to the best of your

20     knowledge, accurately reflects the situation in Sarajevo at the time of

21     the writing of that letter?

22        A.   That is correct.

23             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

Page 7440

 1     given an exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P2495.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 4             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Do we have the capabilities of going into closed

 6     session?

 7                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, we do have the capability.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

11             Do you want closed session or private session?

12             MS. BOLTON:  Private session, Your Honour.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 7441

 1                           [Closed session]

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Page 7442











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Page 7445

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16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

22             Yes, Madam Bolton.

23                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, if we could ask the witness, please, to turn to

Page 7446

 1     tab 7 in the binder.

 2        Q.   Should have before you document 65 ter 1436.  It should be a

 3     translation of an article from a newspaper or publication called

 4     "Argument."

 5             Are you familiar with that publication, sir?

 6        A.   Vaguely, I am, Ms. Bolton.

 7        Q.   Okay.  This is a document dated 24th March, 1995, which purports

 8     to be a subject interview with General Milan Celeketic.  And in the

 9     article, looking at the first page, is an indication that General

10     Celeketic is quoted as having said, "If attacked, we will target the

11     squares of large cities."

12             My question is:  Had you ever seen this or heard that quote -- or

13     seen this article or heard this quote before today?

14        A.   I actually have.

15        Q.   Sir --

16        A.   Ms. Bolton, I would like to emphasise I have not read the

17     article.  I have -- the contents of this were very familiar to me, and I

18     had discuss it with my colleagues back then.

19        Q.   I'm sorry, I did ask you a compound question there.  I take it

20     you were familiar with the quote but not the article.  Is that fair?

21        A.   That is correct.

22        Q.   And the associates or persons that you discussed it with at that

23     time, who would that have been?

24        A.   That would have been people within my own mission, that is the

25     mission of mission of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the mission of Croatia as

Page 7447

 1     well and others within the United Nations's framework.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Could I ask that this document be tendered into

 4     evidence, Your Honour.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do not believe there has been a relationship

 6     made between this document and the witness.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you say that again, Mr. Guy-Smith?  I didn't

 8     hear the first word.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do not believe that there has been a

10     relationship been made between this document and the witness.

11             MS. BOLTON:  I'm content that it be marked for identification

12     purposes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May it be admitted into evidence, and marked for

14     identification.  May it please be given a number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the document will become Exhibit

16     P2497, marked for identification.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

18             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   The second document in tab 7, sir, if you would turn to it should

20     be Defence Exhibit D5.

21        A.   4th May, 1995, Security Council document?

22        Q.   Yes, sir.  And if you would confirm for me, sir, that this is --

23     just looking, sorry, at the fourth quoted paragraph there, where the

24     Security Council also condemns the bombardment of Zagreb.

25             Do you see that text, sir?

Page 7448

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My screen still shows the Celeketic thing.  Is it

 4     possible to see this document that is being discussed?

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.  It's D5; I'm sorry, Madam Registrar.

 6        Q.   Sir, we now have it displayed in the courtroom.  Can you just

 7     confirm for me whether this is an authentic copy of statement that was

 8     released to the Security Council, to the best of your knowledge?

 9        A.   Yes, it is.

10        Q.   Are you able to comment on how much attention in the media the

11     shelling of Zagreb attracted?

12        A.   Quite a bit as it -- as, obviously, it seemed like a

13     re-escalation.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Your Honours, I'm finished with this document, and I

15     would be moving on a different subject area.  Do you wish me to continue

16     going or do you wish to take a break?  The next subject area is

17     Srebrenica.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] ... but if this is

19     convenient for you, we'll take a break.  Can I just that can he take a

20     break of about 15 minutes to 20 past and then come back and sit for 40

21     minutes.

22             Court adjourned.

23                           --- Recess taken at 6.07 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 6.21 p.m.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the record show that we now sit as a full

Page 7449

 1     Bench, with Judge David having joined us, no longer pursuant to 15 bis.

 2             Madam Bolton.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Sir, I want to change -- or start now to discuss the events

 5     surrounding Srebrenica in 1995.

 6             Could you tell me what you understood, based on the information

 7     you were receiving, and you have already touched on this, what the

 8     humanitarian situation was, within the Srebrenica safe area in the spring

 9     of 1995.

10        A.   Yes, Ms. Bolton.  I had generally three sources of information.

11     One is the United Nations; the second is my government, or direct sources

12     there; and the third is actually the Dutch government, which was also

13     interacting with its own forces.

14             There were several simultaneous events developing.  One of them

15     that seemed to be of most immediate concern is that the safe area,

16     itself, seemed to be shrinking.  The Dutch, as other UN protection forces

17     had done in the past, had established outposts to observe and, of course,

18     to be able to trigger response to any attack on the safe area itself.  So

19     it seemed that some of those outposts were first under attack and then

20     some, in fact, were either overrun or had to be abandoned.

21             Number 2, the Dutch forces, themselves, were actually under

22     severe humanitarian conditions.  They were only given enough food and

23     medicines to cover themselves.  They only had enough -- at best limited

24     fuel supplies.  They were not able, in any way, to share any of what they

25     received with the local population, which in some instances actually put

Page 7450

 1     them into a rather uncomfortable -- I don't want to say at adversarial

 2     position, but certainly would initiate conflicts, because the Dutch, at

 3     least, had enough to survive while the local population did not.

 4             In addition to a lack of food, lack of medicines, and I emphasise

 5     those because there were specific discussions on those points with the

 6     Dutch government, particularly Defence Minister Voorhoeve.  There was

 7     also apparently a lack of iodine, which we were able to confirm, which

 8     produced its own unique health results, both physical and even

 9     psychological.

10             We understood, coming now in the late spring of 1995, that the

11     situation was of the most dire nature, that we were dealing with

12     potential deaths.  We were certainly dealing with long-term effects upon

13     the health of this population.  We were dealing with potential conflict

14     that could arise with the haves and the have not's, if I can use that

15     term, that is the peacekeepers versus the local population.  And the

16     Dutch forces, themselves, obviously were suffering under very severe

17     conditions and their ability to perform their mission was impeded.  I

18     hope that suffices for your question.

19        Q.   Yes, sir.  If the UN resolutions had been fully abided by, should

20     there have been any difficulty in humanitarian aid reaching the enclave?

21        A.   Certainly not.  And the attack on the -- on the UN outpost itself

22     was just another element of non-compliance as well.

23        Q.   And what was preventing humanitarian aid, or who or what was

24     preventing humanitarian from reaching inside Srebrenica?

25        A.   As we understood, there, in fact, was a very deliberate strategy

Page 7451

 1     to deny both the local population that, of course, included many

 2     displaced persons and refugees, but also even to deny the Dutch forces

 3     themselves, at least to any meaningful extent access to necessary

 4     supplies.  In fact, many of the Dutch forces, as we understood, if they

 5     did, in fact, manage to go out on leave, were not allowed to return to

 6     resume their responsibilities in helping safeguard the safe area.

 7        Q.   Who is not allowing them to return?

 8        A.   The Serbian forces that had encircled the area.

 9        Q.   And we've talked earlier about the fact -- what your government's

10     view was on who the Serbian forces were composed of.  In this case, in

11     terms of when --

12        A.   I --

13        Q.   Sir, when you talk about Serbian forces, are you talking about --

14     was your information that they were VRS forces, or VRS forces and VJ

15     forces, or VJ forces?

16        A.   We are talking about both VJ and VRS forces, although certainly

17     it was not possible to ascertain, in any one particular moment, the

18     distinction.

19        Q.   When you first learned this information from -- I think you said

20     it was Dutch Minister Voorhoeve; is that correct?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   And, I'm sorry, I'm not sure you may have already stated this:

23     Approximately when was it that you learned about the fact that were

24     forces, apparently, amassing in the Srebrenica area?

25        A.   It was during, in fact, the -- before discussed conference in

Page 7452

 1     Paris.  I met with several delegation and one of the delegations I met

 2     with was the Dutch delegation.

 3        Q.   What month was that?

 4        A.   This was at the very end of May, very beginning of June.  I

 5     cannot tell you if it was 31st of May, or 1st or 2nd of June.  But it was

 6     right then.

 7        Q.   And when you received that information, did you discuss it with

 8     your government, with president or other officials?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.  My stop in Paris was actually coincidental to me

10     returning to Sarajevo to assume the duties of foreign minister.  My

11     predecessor had just been killed a few days earlier, and I was summoned

12     to come back as quickly as possible, and I made that brief stop in Paris.

13        Q.   When you received that information, did you cause you or anyone

14     in your government any concern?

15        A.   Yes, it did.  Frankly, first of all, I found that rather

16     surprising that the Serbian forces would even consider taking over a safe

17     area.  I thought that their strategy would be more one of strangulation,

18     that is, a slow process by which, in fact, the population might be driven

19     out, out of necessity.  So the idea of something that looked like a

20     full-blown assault was a little bit, even in my mind, unexpected at that

21     point.

22        Q.   Did you have any views - personally I'm talking about now - as to

23     what may happen in the event of attack on Srebrenica?

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Relevance.

25             MS. BOLTON:  One of the issues in this trial, Your Honour, is the

Page 7453

 1     foreseeability of the events at Srebrenica.  This gentleman was part of

 2     the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and to the extent that he may have

 3     foreseen, given his knowledge base, that may be evidence later on when

 4     you're comparing what General Perisic, based on the information he had

 5     available to him, ought to have foreseen.  So if somebody else who was

 6     familiar with the history of Srebrenica and so forth could have foreseen

 7     it, then that may be some evidence that you later on you'll consider in

 8     adjudicating whether or not General Perisic did and should have foreseen

 9     the events.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you happy, Mr. Guy-Smith?

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, not at all, to be perfectly honest.  Our

12     position doesn't change.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe if you phrase it in neutral terms.  Whether

14     it was foreseeable, not just by him but generally speaking, I don't know.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think I'm going to be, probably, objecting to

16     that too, Your Honour.  Then there is some other issues that would --

17     that arise at that time.

18             I believe that ultimately the question that I believe Ms. Bolton

19     wishes to ask may well be able to be answered, but I don't think we have

20     reached that point yet based on the information that we have in front of

21     us right now.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I -- I'm sorry, I don't -- I don't understand what

23     you are -- information you [Overlapping speakers] ...  I see that we have

24     dealt with a whole lot of history surrounding this area for some time,

25     and I think for me, this question seems to be [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 7454

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  See there are a variety of problems, not the

 2     least of which in the manner that Ms. Bolton has framed her particular

 3     proffer.  Well, once again, this is not a subject matter that I want to

 4     speak of in front of the witness.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, we don't understand, then, the absolute

 6     basis because [Overlapping speakers] ... the basis has been established

 7     for this question.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm requesting the sound be muted so that I can

 9     further amplify my concern.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we mute New York.

11             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  This is the Registrar,

12     Your Honours.  Yes, it will be done accordingly now.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Just one second, Your Honours.

15     Sorry.  I can confirm that the audio has now been muted.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

17             Mr. Guy-Smith.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, thank you.

19             What this witness's personal opinion is, is not relevant, number

20     one, as I said before.  Number two, based on the proffer presently made,

21     one of the unique aspects of the testimony that has been adduced from

22     Mr. Sacirbey is that he was privy to information from a variety of

23     sources for which there has been no evidence established that anyone else

24     would have been or could have been specifically, the Central Intelligence

25     Agency, private conversations with various governmental officials,

Page 7455

 1     including the Dutch minister, Mr. Voorhoeve.  We have also heard

 2     information through his testimony that for a considerable period of time

 3     there were informal conversations that he was privy to, all of which

 4     there is no evidence that General Perisic was privy to.  So to equate the

 5     two of them, at this time, in the manner that Ms. Bolton has done, is not

 6     only, I would submit, not fair for the issue of foreseeability but

 7     improper.

 8             There is a question that can be asked here, but it is not the

 9     question that has been put forth.

10             In addition, if the question is a question of foreseeability then

11     obviously -- I'm not positive that foreseeability in the manner that the

12     Prosecution has been put forth is the issue that will be presented to the

13     Chamber, but if it is, an issue, the issue of foreseeability, the test

14     clearly would be an objective and not a subjective one.  And the question

15     as presently propounded requires a subjective response, which is why I

16     rose for the initial time and said that I objected on the grounds of

17     relevance.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This question does not equate the witness with

19     General Perisic, maybe the next question may or subsequent questions may

20     do so, but at this stage, we are not at this point.  And I think this

21     question is saying, Based on the information you had, what were you able

22     to see the future to look like?

23             Maybe from there, there may be other questions to make it an

24     objective situation.  I don't want to sort of even -- I don't even want

25     to couch questions that might make that transition.  It is up to the

Page 7456

 1     Prosecutor to do so.

 2             I'm not sure whether you're say -- do I understand you to be

 3     saying that there isn't any sufficient basis for this kind of question to

 4     be asked at this objective level?  This witness has information in his

 5     possession, and I'm sure can he make certain projections based on the

 6     information he had.

 7             Whether those projections are right or wrong is another matter.

 8     And whether those projections could be attributed to anybody else, it is

 9     another matter.  There would be further evidence required to see -- to

10     check whether any other person would have had that information, because

11     we haven't reached a stage where we are being told that the information

12     he had was also in the possession of Mr. Perisic.

13             So that equation has not been reached.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I understand what Your Honour has said.  I think

15     that it poses a number of difficulties, not the least of which is that he

16     is being asked to speculate with regard to what could happen in the

17     future, and he is being asked to do that from the standpoint of

18     hindsight.  The problem that we have right now with the answer that he

19     could give is we're talking about him prognosticating as to had a would

20     occur, when we know precisely what did occur.  There is -- within it,

21     there's a false premise that exists in the first instance, because quite

22     frankly, we all know what the answer will be.  And to ask somebody what

23     they thought would happen in the future, after the future has occurred,

24     is, among other things, it's our respective submission, that it's

25     meaningless.

Page 7457

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you have any response to that part of it,

 2     Madam Bolton?

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, to that part of it, Your Honour, I can indicate

 4     that what I'm asking the witness to do is to remember what his thoughts

 5     were at the time, what his concerns were at the time; and my friend can

 6     cross-examine if he wants to suggest that, in fact, the evidence he gives

 7     here today is not, in fact, what he was concerned about at the time, but,

 8     in fact, has been influenced by the benefit of hindsight.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think we have exhausted the topic sufficiently.

10     We need to rule on this one.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would request at this time, then, that we go

14     back on to audio so that he can hear us, because that was all done muted.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             May we please be reconnected with New York via audio.

17             Can you hear us in New York?

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Yes, Your Honour, we can.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  We are reconnected.

20             Thank you, Madam Bolton.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Sir, going back to my question, it was whether you had any -- any

23     views as to what may happen in the event of an attack on Srebrenica.

24        A.   Absolutely, Ms. Bolton.  Starting with the Drina River valley,

25     places like Visoko, Visegrad, Foca, Bijeljina, going into, particularly,

Page 7458

 1     Prijedor where we believe many more thousands of people were murdered,

 2     this was all more or less done at the same military and political

 3     leadership and that continued through much of the war, of course, with

 4     the greater intensity during the beginning of the war.  But it was from

 5     our perspective, that is the perspective of the mission of Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina, and from my conversations with President Izetbegovic and

 7     other Bosnian leaders, it was a very really possibility that three

 8     individuals, not only would be expelled, but, in fact, could be

 9     massacred.

10        Q.   How were you expecting the United Nations forces in Srebrenica to

11     react to the use of military forces by the Bosnian -- or the Serb forces?

12        A.   We actually expected the UN forces along with the support of

13     NATO, which was critical, to confront any forces that would attack the

14     safe areas, especially keeping in the mind the evidence we discussed

15     already regarding how much effort went into defining the safe areas and

16     defining what the mandate was in defending those safe areas.

17        Q.   How soon after the offensive began did you start to receive

18     reports as to what was happening in the enclave?

19        A.   Ms. Bolton, I think I need to be asking you to clarify.  The

20     offensive seemed to start really quite -- months before the actually

21     takeover of the enclave, but the most urgent period seemed to be only a

22     few days before the enclave actually fell.

23        Q.   If we could deal with the beginning of July 1995 and the shelling

24     at Srebrenica, sorry, sir.  How soon after the -- sorry, first, was

25     there -- were you aware of a period of intense shelling in the beginning

Page 7459

 1     of July 1995, sir?

 2        A.   The first situation I became aware of, having returned to

 3     Sarajevo from Paris, was a visit from the delegation of Srebrenica that

 4     was visiting President Izetbegovic.  He called me in to meet with them,

 5     and they were emphasizing two things, that, in fact, the military action

 6     had intensified, but, in fact, the humanitarian action was at the point

 7     of being highly dramatic, in fact, life threatening.  When, in fact, I

 8     left Sarajevo at that time, I was instructed by President Izetbegovic,

 9     once again, to ensure airdrops or any other means that, in fact, the

10     enclave could receive necessities of life; and, of course, I was told to

11     do whatever would be necessary to try to protect the enclave from

12     military attack.

13             The first really information of the intensified military attack

14     that I received actually came when I was in The Hague.  And it was in

15     conjunction with also Dutch officials who were receiving similar

16     information, and this was the few days right before the enclave actually

17     was overrun.

18             The attacks were intensive, and most importantly, there was this

19     sense that the military forces that had been recently introduced or

20     reinforced, if you would, were tightening the noose, to use that term.

21        Q.   When you started to receive those kinds of reports, did you make

22     any efforts to bring that information to the attention of the

23     United Nations Security Council?

24        A.   Yes, I did through our mission in New York.  But also through

25     contacts with the UN officials on the ground in Bosnia and, of course,

Page 7460

 1     through my Dutch colleagues, the foreign ministry, van Mierlo, and the

 2     Dutch defence minister, Voorhoeve.  We had several meetings including

 3     their -- some of their military staff.

 4        Q.   Could I ask you to turn to tab 12 in the binder you have in front

 5     of you, sir, and that's 65 ter 8863.

 6        A.   I do have that.

 7        Q.   Should be a letter from your charge d'affaires, 9th July, 1995

 8     with an annex written by yourself on that same date.

 9        A.   That is correct.

10        Q.   And could you confirm, sir, that this is a true copy of the

11     letter that you sent to the Security Council on July 9th, 1995?

12        A.   That is correct.

13        Q.   And in the first paragraph, you appear to be requesting an

14     emergency session of the Security Council, to address the events in

15     Srebrenica.  Did that emergency --

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   Did that emergency session take place?

18        A.   I would have called it.  I would not have been present there.  I

19     believe it did take place, though, Ms. Bolton.

20             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be tendered as the next exhibit,

21     please, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

23     number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2498.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 7461

 1             MS. BOLTON:

 2        Q.   Could you turn, please, sir, to tab 17 in your binder; 65 ter

 3     8866.

 4        A.   I'm there, Ms. Bolton.

 5             I realize that my answer may have been incomplete to one of your

 6     previous questions, and just for the record, I would like to be very

 7     complete on that.

 8             Besides people and institutions contacted regarding the attack on

 9     Srebrenica, I also contacted NATO and NATO member states, because

10     Srebrenica was also a NATO - what was then called a protected zone - and

11     it was, in fact, NATO that would also be called upon, in particular, with

12     its resources the safe area/protected zone.

13             Thank you.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   I apologise to the Court.

16        Q.   Dealing with the document in front of you, sir, it appears to be

17     a letter dated 13th July, 1995, from Mr. Misic.  And in the first

18     paragraph --

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.    The first paragraph he alludes to reports from the Srebrenica

21     area communicated to our government:

22             "Serb forces have begun to separate boys and men, aged 13 and

23     older."

24             Later in that paragraph he indicates:

25             "According to reports from this area, a number of trucks with

Page 7462

 1     detained men may have been taken to unknown destinations.  The fate of

 2     these detainees is uncertain, and there are substantial grounds to fear

 3     their execution, those these reports could not yet be confirmed."

 4             And he then states:

 5             "These acts constitute grave violations of the Geneva Conventions

 6     and the norms of international humanitarian law and must be responded to

 7     in the strongest terms."

 8             First of all, can you authenticate this letter sir?

 9        A.   Yes, I can.

10        Q.   It was sent -- the letterhead indicates General Assembly and

11     Security Council.  What does that mean in terms -- and then, sorry, the

12     last paragraph indicates they want it circulated, Mr. Misic wanted it

13     circulated as a document of the General Assembly under items 28 and 114 C

14     of the preliminary list and of the Security Council.  What would that

15     mean in terms of circulation?

16        A.   Yes, of course the matter was under consideration by the Security

17     Council and also by that time for several years then there had been an

18     agenda item titled the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  This -- this

19     document, therefore, would have been circulated to all member states as

20     well as the FRY and, of course, observer missions as a document both of

21     the General Assembly and the Security Council.

22        Q.   What would that mean in terms of whether the Federal Republic of

23     Yugoslavia's representatives at the United Nations would have been

24     entitled to receive it?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think that question has answered.

Page 7463

 1             THE WITNESS:  They would have been entitled.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It says they did actually circulate -- it was

 3     circulated to them.  Look at the previous answer.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.  I'm getting tired.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.  It's late in the day.

 6             MS. BOLTON:

 7        Q.   The next document, sir, that I would like to deal with is a

 8     document that would require us to move in closed session.  I'm in

 9     Your Honours hands as to whether you wish to break five minutes early or

10     try to go with this document in the next five minutes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you are able to finish in the next five

12     minutes, go ahead.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Brief indulgence.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry, I forgot to move a tab, the last document

16     we were just discussing admitted into evidence, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 8866 is admitted into evidence.  May it

18     please be given an exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2499.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MS. BOLTON:  What I'm going to suggest, Your Honour, is the next

22     document is one that I anticipate the witness would need a little bit of

23     time to read.  So if we could perhaps -- I don't think I can deal with in

24     five minutes, as a result, if we could, perhaps, ask the Registrar to

25     allow him to read it, maybe, before we start the session tomorrow

Page 7464

 1     morning.  Then I could ask my questions of him at that time.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see, Mr. Guy-Smith.  I see you shaking your

 3     head, sir ... [Microphone not activated]

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I am uncomfortable with it, but I will allow it.

 5     I'll not the person to allow it.  I'm uncomfortable with it, but if that

 6     is what the Chamber wishes to do, I'll -- I'm in the Chamber's hands.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, I think I shouldn't allow it, for

 8     the simple reason that the witness is not supposed to discuss the case

 9     with anyone else during adjournments.

10             MS. BOLTON:  It's a good point, Your Honour.  Then I think I have

11     gone as far as I can for today.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will take an adjournment until tomorrow,

13     quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in Courtroom I.

14                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day of June,

16                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.