1 Friday, 19 June 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom. And in the courtroom down in New York, good morning.
7 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
10 number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Can we have the appearances for today, starting with the
14 MS. BOLTON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Mark Harmon,
15 Lorna Bolton, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks very much, Madam Bolton and for the
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Daniela Tasic,
19 Chad Mair, Kay Marshall, Novak Lukic, and I'm Gregor Guy-Smith, on behalf
20 of Momcilo Perisic.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 Mr. Sacirbey, let's go through the ritual again. You are still
23 bound by the declaration that you made beginning of your testimony to
24 tell the truth whole truth and nothing else but the truth.
25 WITNESS: MUHAMED SACIRBEY [Resumed]
1 [Witness testified via videolink]
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes thank you very much.
4 Madam Bolton.
5 Examination by Ms. Bolton: [Continued]
6 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. If you just give me an indulgence, sir. I don't seem to have any
9 sound coming through my -- no, not -- my microphone from within the
10 courtroom. Sorry, I'm just testing that, sir. Thank you, that's --
11 thank you.
12 Sir, I just want to a bit of a housekeeping before we continue
13 our conversation about Sarajevo
14 that were discussed yesterday. [Microphone not activated] ... I'm still
15 having problems with my headphones.
16 Sir -- sorry, I still have no sound of my -- from within the
18 I'm just testing the microphone here, sir.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can't we get the technicians to come and help?
20 MS. BOLTON: I think we -- I think that fixes it. Could --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, are you able to phone the
23 MS. BOLTON: I think we have it now, Your Honour. That's fine.
24 Thank you. Sorry, this one doesn't seem to be working.
25 Q. Sorry about that, Mr. Sacirbey.
1 Going to your testimony from yesterday at page 7381, I was asking
2 you about a publication called "Borba," which you had indicated was a
3 large published newspaper, a daily, and you told us it was published in
4 Serbian. What I neglected to ask you is where is it published?
5 A. I believe it's published in Belgrade.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. At page 7420 of your testimony from yesterday, I
7 was asking you about the resourcing of the ICFY Monitor Mission, and I
8 had asked you a question -- first I had indicated to you, read to you a
9 paragraph 19 from their report, where they had indicated they didn't have
10 the -- the compatibility to monitor effectively the closure of the air
11 border. And I had asked you if the situation had changed, and you gave a
12 response. I wanted to ask if they ever received the resourcing that had
13 originally been recommended they receive?
14 A. I'm not aware of, and one of the reasons for some of the
15 ambiguity is because this rose out of the London Conference. I believe
16 it also fell -- it was part of the negotiations, that is, the negotiating
17 process, but it was also part of the United Nations system.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. During our conversation with respect to the
19 situation in Sarajevo
20 to refer you to and didn't. So I wonder if I could take you to tab 4 of
21 the binder you have in front of you, where you should find 65 ter 8846.
22 A. I do have that in front of me.
23 Q. That's a letter dated -- actual letter is dated 15 April 1995
24 And above it this is an second date or another date of 17 April 1995.
25 Can you explain why the date above doesn't match the date of the
1 actual letter?
2 A. The letter itself probably was provided on April 15th. But the
3 time that, in fact, it was issued as a document of the Security Council,
4 it was 17th of April. I'm not sure why there may have been a day or two
5 delay. It could have been a weekend issue, holiday issue, or just
6 bureaucratic issue.
7 Q. So when we look at other documents that date, at the top there,
8 that would be the date that of -- that it's made a Security Council
10 A. That is correct. It seems to refer to the distribution time,
11 which is 17th of April, 1995.
12 Q. Okay. In the second paragraph of this document, which is
13 authored by yourself, there is an reference again to the border between
14 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Federal Republic
16 to helicopter flights, bus loads of soldiers, and fuel transports, are
17 all evidence of this untenable situation. And you then go on to say:
18 "We would like to express here our appreciation to the delegation
19 of the United States of America for having brought these facts to the
20 attention of the Security Council."
21 What were you referring to there?
22 A. Up -- I was referring to, obviously, other sources of information
23 than those that were specifically mandated and solely mandated for that
24 purpose. In other words, they were other national sources, I think I
25 mentioned yesterday, that were available. They may have been satellite,
1 they may have been overflights, or they may have been actual observers or
2 other intelligence on the ground.
3 Q. When you're talking about the national source of the information
4 you were referring to in this paragraph, what nationality did it come
6 A. The United States of America.
7 Q. Okay. And was this information they conveyed to you privately or
8 to a broader audience?
9 A. No. This was conveyed to a broader audience. That is it, the
10 audience of the Security Council and all of those who participated its
11 work formally and informally, I mean also in the context of the
12 antechamber of the Security Council.
13 Q. Thank you, sir.
14 MS. BOLTON: Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted into evidence. May it please be
17 given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2500.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 MS. BOLTON:
21 Q. Could you turn, sir, to the next tab in your binder, tab 5, where
22 you should find, as a first document, Prosecution Exhibit 853.
23 MS. BOLTON: I need to go into closed session for this,
24 Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
1 You want private or closed?
2 MS. BOLTON: No, closed session, please, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Closed session, please.
4 [Closed session]
11 Pages 7471-7500 redacted. Closed session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 Yes, Madam Bolton
1 Yes, Madam Bolton
2 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Sir, could you turn to tab 20 in the binder you have. It should
4 be 65 ter 8869.
5 A. Yes, I do have that, Ms. Bolton.
6 Q. Should be a letter dated 14th July, 1995, from Mr. Misic, to
7 which was annexed the letter from the president of the Federation of
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
9 Can you indicate whether you recognise this document, sir.
10 A. I do, Ms. Bolton.
11 Q. And simply looking at the second page of the document. There is
12 a reference at the bottom of the first paragraph to, "An attack against
13 the safe area of Zepa today."
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And could you just tell us very briefly what was happening in
16 Zepa area?
17 A. Zepa was somewhat smaller enclave, even more isolated than
18 Srebrenica. Based upon what I had stated in the past, that there was a
19 lot of pressure on us to exchange these enclaves for some other
20 territory, after the fall of Srebrenica, there continued to be that
22 Zepa came under direct military attack. At some point in time,
23 also during this period, President Izetbegovic, in fact, did sent a
24 delegation that met directly with General Ratko Mladic in the context of
25 the potential evacuation of Zepa. All of this was happening around the
1 same time.
2 Q. What happened to that delegation?
3 A. It was -- it was a team that, in effect, was to supposed to
4 negotiate the potential evacuation of Zepa. Only subsequent to that time
5 and several months later, did I find out that that team, in fact, had
6 disappeared. The Serbian forces had reported to the International
7 Committee of the Red Cross that, quote/unquote, Those delegation members
8 had escaped. Of course, they were never accounted for again.
9 Q. And just to clarify, when you indicate it came -- Zepa was under
10 military attack, it was under military attack from whom?
11 A. It was under attack from Serbian forces, and it was a period soon
12 after the fall of Srebrenica.
13 Q. And just to clarify what you mean by the word "Serbian forces"?
14 A. As I have said in the past, I'm speaking of the forces of Serbia
15 and Montenegro
16 and Herzegovina
18 MS. BOLTON: Could that letter be marked as the next exhibit,
19 please, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The letter is marked as an exhibit. May it be
21 given an exhibit number.
22 As we do that, who are the allies of the Serbian forces in Bosnia
23 and Herzegovina
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, we understood, again to use
25 terminology that we have used during my testimony, the Pale Serbs to be
1 allies and agents of Belgrade
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become
4 Exhibit P2504.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, madam.
6 Yes, Madam Bolton
7 MS. BOLTON:
8 Q. If you could turn very briefly to tab 16, sir. You should find
9 two documents there, 65 ter 8864 and 8865. And with respect to those
10 documents, I simply want you to indicate whether you can authentic them.
11 A. Yes, I can.
12 MS. BOLTON: Could those be tendered in evidence, Your Honour,
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted. May it please be given an
15 exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 8864 would become Exhibit
17 P2705. And 65 ter 8865 will become Exhibit P2506.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.
19 Yes, Madam Bolton
20 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. If you could turn, please, sir, to tab 24, there should be a
22 document, I think it's the second document in that tab, 65 ter 6780.
23 A. Yes, I have that, Ms. Bolton.
24 Q. And again, could you simply confirm whether this is, in fact, a
25 true copy of the statement of the president of the Security Council from
1 25th July, 1995
2 A. Yes, it is, Ms. Bolton.
3 MS. BOLTON: If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please,
4 Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be marked,
6 Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2507.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MS. BOLTON:
10 Q. Sir, could you please turn to tab 30. You should have
11 Resolution 1019 of the Security Council, 65 ter 5014 before you?
12 A. Yes, I do, Ms. Bolton.
13 Q. And this resolution moves forward in time a bit to the 9th of
14 November, 1995. This is a -- I'm going to refer you to specific
15 passages, sir.
16 It starts in the first two paragraphs, in particular, paragraph 2
17 with the expression of grave concerns of reports, including by the
18 representative of the Secretary-General of the United Nations of grave
19 violations of international humanitarian law and of human rights in and
20 around Srebrenica and in the areas of Banja Luka and Sanski Most,
21 including reports of mass murder, unlawful detention, forced labour, rape
22 and deportation of civilians.
23 And then looking at particular paragraphs 8 and 9, numbered
24 paragraphs on page 2 and 3, I should also include paragraph 2. In
25 paragraph 2, there is a demand that the Bosnian Serb party give immediate
1 and unimpeded access to representatives of the United Nations High
2 Commission for Refugees and ICRC to persons displaced and/or detained or
3 reported missing from Srebrenica, Zepa, and the regions of Banja Luka
4 Sanski Most.
5 Was the United Nations Security Council or you -- well, was the
6 United Nations Security Council, to the best of your knowledge, receiving
7 any kind of explanation from the Bosnian Serbs as to the fate of the men
8 who had been identified as missing in the previous statement of the
9 Security Council?
10 A. Yes, it was. In most instances, it was saying that, in fact,
11 such persons had never been either in contact or taken prisoner by the
12 Bosnian Serb forces. In other words, it denied that it ever had access
13 to those people and that presumably that had, somehow, left the territory
14 in question.
15 In a few instance, there might have been commentary about
16 fighting units, but by and large, there was denial that such individuals
17 were ever taken prisoner.
18 Q. Turning to paragraph 8, there is a demand that all states, "In
19 particular areas" -- sorry:
20 "In particular, those in the region of the former Yugoslavia
21 all parties to the conflict in the former Yugoslavia, comply fully and in
22 good faith with the obligations contained in paragraph 4 of Resolution
23 827 (1993) to cooperate fully with the international tribunal ..."
24 It goes on from there.
25 And then paragraph 9:
1 "Demands that all parties, and, in particular, the Bosnian Serb
2 party, refrain from any action intended to destroy, alter, conceal or
3 damage any evidence of violations of international humanitarian law and
4 that they preserve such evidence."
5 Based on the information you were receiving with respect to the
6 Security Council, had the Security Council been receiving any information
7 that the Bosnian Serb party had, up to that point in time, destroyed,
8 altered, or concealed or damaged evidence?
9 A. Ms. Bolton, the resolution that you referring to, and the passage
10 that you have read, are actually dealing, I think, with two related but
11 separate items. One of them is, of course, concealing evidence of crimes
12 or concealing, in fact, the very existence of the individuals who had
13 left the enclaves and/or who may have been, in fact, taken prisoner by
14 the Serbian forces, and, of course, the fate of those forces.
15 The second point was also a particular point of discussion at
17 that, actually during the negotiation itself, ethnic cleansing, in fact,
18 had been reinvigorated in some areas under the control of the so-called
19 Bosnian Serb or Pale Serb forces. And it seemed and the reason, of
20 course, this is memorable is because it seemed that while there was a
21 discussion of the territorial delineation of Bosnia, that is the internal
22 territorial delineation of Bosnia
23 consolidate certain areas where ethnic cleansing had been commited into
24 what, in effect, would be defined as Republika Srpska.
25 Q. Okay. I don't think you answered my question with respect to
1 whether the Security Council had been receiving any information about the
2 concealment of evidence or damage of evidence.
3 A. Yes, it had. Certainly starting with the satellite photographs
4 and then we actually started to receive information, that is we, let me
5 emphasize that again, the mission to Bosnia and Herzegovina and, in this
6 case, the UN Security Council of, in fact, graves being moved, mass
7 graves being relocated, or in some ways disturbed.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MS. BOLTON: Could that document be marked as the next exhibit,
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
12 given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2508.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.
15 Yes, Madam Bolton
16 MS. BOLTON:
17 Q. Finally, sir, I'd like to turn to Dayton, which we have talked
18 about to some extent, so I don't have too many questions.
19 First of all, I think you already answered this question, but
20 I'll ask it again: Whether you participated directly in those
22 A. I participated in Dayton
23 negotiations leading up to Dayton
24 Q. And dealing with just Dayton
25 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia participated in those talks?
1 A. Yes, they did, Ms. Bolton.
2 Q. Who was their representative?
3 A. The head of the delegation which represented both the FRY, that
4 is Serbia
5 Slobodan Milosevic.
6 Q. Were either General Ratko Mladic or Radovan Karadzic in
8 A. No, they were not, Ms. Bolton.
9 Q. Was any explanation offered as to why neither the commander of
10 the Main Staff of the Bosnian Serb Army or the president of the RS were
11 in attendance [sic]?
12 A. There seemed to be two considerations --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: The question as presently framed assumes that
15 there was some inquiry with regard to why they were not present. Whoever
16 was at the meeting, was at the meeting. In the absence of a question
17 that directs that there may have been such an inquiry, it assumes either
18 a fact not in evidence, which if there was an inquiry, or, alternatively,
19 this is an question with regard to its relevance.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.
21 MS. BOLTON:
22 Q. Could you answer the question, sir?
23 A. Yes. There were two considerations. One of them was that, in
24 fact, there was agreement reached by, as I have referred to Serbian
25 forces, in this case let's speak of the Pale Serbs in Belgrade, that, in
1 fact, the -- that the position of the Serbian force, as a whole, would be
2 represented by Slobodan Milosevic.
3 Number two, at the time, we also had, of course, the issue of the
4 war crimes that were being committed and -- and the positions taken by
5 the ICTY first probable and then actual indictments.
6 Q. Had either of those men been indicted by the ICTY at that time?
7 A. Yes, they had.
8 Q. You have already averted to the fact that there was some
9 discussion, I believe, about the war crimes commission, the ICTY, at the
11 the Federal Republic
12 that issue at Dayton
13 A. Yes, Ms. Bolton. We were informed by Ambassador
14 Richard Holbrooke that, in fact, President Milosevic and his delegation
15 wished to, in fact, discuss the potential immunity, amnesty. We're not
16 exactly sure what terminology would be applicable here for acts committed
17 during the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
18 We -- at least I personally rejected that as member of that
19 delegation. The -- the issue appeared for several days during the
20 discussions and then, in fact, under, I believe, even the direct
21 intervention of the ICTY, was removed from the agenda.
22 Q. And how about the ICJ case, was it discussed at all?
23 A. That was discussed even more extensively, presumably because it
24 was something within the authority of Bosnia and Herzegovina to undertake
25 on its own. And there was a demand by President Milosevic, Slobodan
1 Milosevic, that the case, in fact, be terminated in order for him to
2 proceed with the signing of the Dayton Accord protocols.
3 Q. And you've already told us that that case proceeded beyond
5 A. That was a rather testy moment and continued for -- it was, in
6 fact, the last point of the discussions, and at one point in time, that
7 is the -- I was under pressure personally, as well as delegation of
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina to, in fact, drop the case. Ultimately,
9 Mr. Milosevic had to be pressured once we, in fact, stood firm to drop
10 his demand as a precondition to the signing of the Dayton protocols.
11 Q. Could you tell us whether there were any members of the military
12 in attendance at Dayton
13 A. I would not be 100 percent certain, but I believe there were.
14 There were no uniforms, if I remember correctly, being worn, which was --
15 this was a military base at the United States of America that the talks
16 were being held at. So I do not remember specifically whether uniforms
17 were being worn, but I believe there were members of the military.
18 Q. Do you know if there were members of the VJ or the Bosnian Serb
19 forces --
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Objection, leading.
21 MS. BOLTON:
22 Q. Sorry. Do you know what military, what army they were members
24 A. I recall no members of the Republika Srpska military being
1 Q. Okay, sir. We had talked about the -- just changing topics
2 slightly here, sir, about the removal of the remaining sanctions against
3 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and you told us -- you already
4 identified for us one of the resolutions by which that was accomplished.
5 And I just wished to show you another resolution of 1021, which is 65 ter
6 6781. You should find it at tab 31 of your binder?
7 A. Yes, I have that in front of me.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: 6781.
9 MS. BOLTON: Yes, 6781.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 You have the indulgence, ma'am.
12 MS. BOLTON: Yes, that's the document, sir.
13 Q. Again, can you just confirm, sir, that this is a true copy of a
14 resolution passed by the Security Council on the 22nd November, 1995
15 A. Yes, it is, Ms. Bolton.
16 MS. BOLTON: If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.
17 Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so marked. May it please be given an
19 exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2509.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
22 Madam Bolton.
23 MS. BOLTON:
24 Q. Going back to Dayton
25 alleged massacres that had taken place at Srebrenica at Dayton?
1 A. Yes, there was, Ms. Bolton, and, of course, this came on several
2 occasions, both in the context of its human, that is implications for
3 international humanitarian law, and also in its context of the
4 territorial delineation within Bosnia and Herzegovina. At the very
5 beginning, we were told that any efforts to preserve Srebrenica and Zepa
6 within the territory of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina would be
7 deemed to be, in effect, an end to the talks.
8 Q. Can you tell me, sir, you indicated there was some discussion of
9 the events at Srebrenica. Apart from the discussion you've just told us
10 about, were there any other discussions at Dayton about what had
11 allegedly happened at Srebrenica?
12 A. Yes. There were, of course, discussions about what happened and
13 how it occurred. But most importantly, the focus was to deal with the
14 individuals that, in fact, may have been unaccounted for.
15 Again, Ms. Bolton, I emphasise for even many months after Dayton
16 we continued to receive reports that maybe there were survivors of
17 Srebrenica, and that were held within various areas within Bosnia
19 was very much for a complete accounting of those individuals and
20 particularly also the individuals from Zepa, which I should not neglect
21 to mention here.
22 As to -- actually the events of -- of Srebrenica, in the context
23 of looking back how it came about, I certainly took the position that
24 Srebrenica should continue to be dealt with as a safe area, with all the
25 rights and obligations considered that safe area until, in fact, we had a
1 full accounting and until, hopefully, Srebrenica had been restored to its
2 original inhabitants and population.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry to interrupt, Madam Bolton. Just before
4 there screen disappears.
5 Mr. Sacirbey, you said in answer to a previous question, I am
6 referring you to page 46, line 25, you said:
7 "At the very beginning, we were told that any efforts to preserve
8 Srebrenica and Zepa within the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina would
9 deemed to be, in effect, an end to the talks."
10 Who told you?
11 THE WITNESS: Ambassador Richard Holbrooke.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what did he mean by, "an end to the talks"?
13 THE WITNESS: He meant that that was an unacceptable condition
14 for the Dayton
15 firsthand knowledge that he was relaying the views of President
16 Slobodan Milosevic, but it may have been otherwise. We engaged in -- if
17 Your Honour doesn't mind, I would also like to emphasise it was a very
18 lengthy and very difficult discussion about how to retain Gorazde, which
19 was a third enclave within the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina
20 That was one, of course, of first delineation but also practical
21 considerations because there was a view as to maybe how roads would
22 connect that enclave with the rest of the Federation of Bosnia and
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Bolton.
25 MS. BOLTON:
1 Q. Sir, could I refer to tab 33 of the binder before you, please, 65
2 ter 8877.
3 A. I think I'll there, Ms. Bolton.
4 Q. And, sir, this is a letter that appears to have been sent by
5 Vladislav Jovanovic, charge d'affaires, to Sergey Lavrov, president of
6 the Security Council, in New York
7 Could you tell me whether you received a copy of this document or
8 your mission received a copy of this document at that time?
9 A. I'm not sure. I would probably need to review it a little more
10 carefully since I don't see a distribution mark, and I haven't had a
11 chance to review the contents of it, Ms. Bolton.
12 Q. If you would take a moment then and review it, please.
13 A. Thank you.
14 Yes, I am now familiar with this.
15 Q. When you say you're now familiar with it, can you tell me whether
16 this is the first time you've read this document?
17 A. No, I'm familiar with the contents of these -- of the references
18 made to on the second and third page.
19 I cannot recall whether I have seen this information exactly in
20 this form through this report, to be very honest with you.
21 Q. Just looking at the first page of the document, there's --
22 appears to be written on letterhead that says permanent mission of the
23 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to the United Nations.
24 Can you tell me, Mr. Jovanovic is he somebody that you knew at
25 the federal republic mission in the United Nations?
1 A. I believe he had, within a few previous months, taken over as the
2 "charge" of the permanent mission of the FRY Serbia and Montenegro
3 United Nations in New York
4 Q. Dealing with page 2, numbered paragraph 3, there's a indication
5 that the events in Srebrenica, I'm looking first at paragraph 12 and by
6 inference then incorporating those into paragraph 3. The events at
7 Srebrenica attracted the attention of the world media, and then further
8 in the paragraph, there's reference to news agencies from CNN, CBS, BBC,
9 RAI, Paris
10 others having reports on Srebrenica.
11 Can you confirm whether that's true?
12 A. First of all, I'm not aware at all of how much access any of
13 these media houses had to Srebrenica. In fact, quite to the contrary.
14 All I recall is one propaganda film of General Ratko Mladic and his
16 What -- the reason I remember this document is the particular
17 emphasis that, number one, this was propaganda and also, actually, in
18 paragraph 1 where it refers to some sort of presumed negotiation between
19 the quote/unquote Republika Srpska forces and the local Muslim
20 authorities. Certainly no negotiations, as far as I am aware of, were
21 held by any representatives of the local population unless they, somehow,
22 were made de facto representatives at the moment.
23 Q. And the statement that the paragraph begins with, that -- to the
24 effect this propaganda ploy, referring to the previous paragraph,
25 attracted the attention of the world media.
1 Can you comment on whether that was accurate?
2 A. Yes. We took great exception to this -- to this proposition that
3 did not just come out in this letter but came out through several
4 communications, including right into Dayton, that, in fact, what we were
5 dealing with here was not a mass murder but that we were dealing with,
6 somehow, some sort of staged disappearance of people.
7 Q. Okay. You're getting a little ahead of me, sir. My question
8 was: Was there coverage in the world media of the -- what you described
9 as the mass murder at Srebrenica?
10 A. Yes, there was.
11 Q. And now if we could look at paragraph 2 which says:
12 "Immediately before the takeover of Srebrenica by the Army of the
13 Republika Srpska, disorders and conflicts within the Bosnian Muslim Army
14 in that enclave erupted. In the clashes that ensued, those units which
15 wanted to continue fighting were mercilessly killing those who wanted to
16 surrender and were in favour of cease-fire. Since the units of the Army
17 of Republika Srpska did not have access to those areas at that time, it
18 was only after the fall of the enclave, that the bodies of Muslim
19 fighters and civilian who died as a result of the infighting, were
20 discovered. This situation was abused by the Bosnian Muslim government
21 to further its propaganda campaign on the alleged mass killings and
22 disappearances of the Muslims from the area."
23 My question for you, sir, is: During the Dayton negotiations had
24 President Milosevic or anyone else associated with Mr. Milosevic's
25 delegation ever suggested that the men of Srebrenica had killed each
1 other in infighting?
2 A. I want to be very accurate on this point. There were numerous,
3 numerous, discussions during Dayton
4 public in the sense that they were more formal sessions. Let me make
5 sure I'm -- public is not the accurate word. There were formal sessions
6 and there were informal sessions.
7 During the more formal sessions, such assertions, as contained in
8 this paragraph, had been made. I very much remember this particular
9 point being emphasised in the time-frame immediately following
10 Srebrenica. To be more accurate, August, September.
11 In the context of Dayton
12 President Milosevic, himself, was not as inclined to pursue this line of
13 reasoning, obviously knowing that there were representatives of the
14 United States and other western allies which had direct evidence to the
16 Q. And was any evidence presented at Dayton to suggest that, in
17 fact, the men of Srebrenica had been killed through infighting?
18 A. None whatsoever. And to be fair, President Milosevic's whole
19 focus seemed to be on gaining access of these two enclaves.
20 MS. BOLTON: I have no further questions for the witness,
21 Your Honour. Except could this document please be marked as the next
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
24 please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become
1 Exhibit P2510.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
3 Mr. Guy-Smith.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, Your Honour. I made a request to be able to
5 commence my cross-examination, I believe at the next sitting, which would
6 be, as I understand it, Monday, the 29th. I have taken a look at the
7 schedule and understand that we have further sittings by video-conference
8 for the 29th, 30th and 1st of July. And I request that I be allowed to
9 commence my cross-examination on that Monday (redacted)
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I am asking as a matter of a couple of things,
13 first of all, I would like to be able to have my cross-examination in one
14 continuous session so that we're focussed on all of the matters. And,
15 secondly, I would be in a position, I think to be -- quite frankly I
16 would be in a position to have a tighter and crisper examination if I get
17 the time to be able to deal with this -- the last proceedings of the day.
18 MS. BOLTON: May be heard on this issue, Your Honours?
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
21 MS. BOLTON: The Prosecution is opposed to my friend's
22 suggestions for a couple of reasons.
23 First is that counsel is in attendance in New York to assist him
24 and we should make use of their time. Second is that, obviously, there
25 are costs associated with having the videolink, and we actually have a
1 working videolink today. For the first time in the proceedings, we
2 haven't been interrupted by it. We should take advantage of it.
3 Thirdly, my friend has taken -- has had ample notice of when
4 Mr. Sacirbey would be attending because of the -- sorry. Because of the
5 manner in which he was going to be attending, the videolink issue, and so
6 should have a crisp cross-examination ready at this point.
7 The other issue, Your Honour, if in fact -- well, regardless of
8 whether he is going to start today or not is this: We know he has put us
9 on notice that he intends to cross-examine Mr. Sacirbey on allegations
10 that have been made against him in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The -- in the
11 decision in Krstic, there had been a ruling that you can't -- there has
12 to be some substance to the allegations. There has to be something more
13 than unsubstantiated hearsay, and at this point, we don't have any
14 information, the Prosecution doesn't have any information that would rise
15 above that level. If my friend has documents that he wants to put to
16 Mr. Sacirbey, in particular on that issue, we would like the opportunity
17 to see those documents beforehand, and I'm going to need to consult with
18 his counsel, because I don't know -- I don't have access to any of the
19 materials in relation to those allegations and wouldn't be in a position
20 to know when to object, unless I have the opportunity to review those
21 documents and speak to his counsel.
22 I understand there were issues in the extradition proceedings,
23 with respect to some documents that were tendered, and, again, I can't
24 answer any of that without the opportunity to speak to Mr. Sacirbey's
25 counsel. Not suggesting, obviously, any communication with the witness
1 on these issues, but simply his counsel and, of course, in the manner of
2 cross-examining in any event, I need to have a copy of the documents so I
3 know if it is being fairly put to the witness and can follow along. My
4 friend had indicated previously he would provide us with documents on
5 Monday. We have yet to receive those documents, and I'm sure he intends
6 to stand by his indication, but I would like to ask that those be ordered
7 to be provided to us now.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand where are you going,
9 Madam Bolton.
10 What you have now been telling us about the allegations against
11 Mr. Sacirbey and the need for -- by the Prosecution to have documents
12 that are going to be used for cross-examination and the need for
13 Prosecution to consult with Mr. Sacirbey's counsel, all that seems to go
14 against your opposition to your postponement because if he starts doing
15 that now, you haven't had the opportunity to look at those documents, to
16 consult with counsel in New York
17 MS. BOLTON: I understand.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- that opposes the first point that you made
19 about saving time, technology working, and what have you.
20 MS. BOLTON: I would be asking that he not be permitted to go
21 into those areas in cross-examination today because we have not received
22 the documents as of yet. But, surely, he has told us he is going to be
23 approximately two days in cross-examination. He can start his
24 cross-examination on the other areas that he intends to ask him about.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any response, Mr. Guy-Smith?
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think there are a number of different questions
2 that have been raised by the Prosecution's response.
3 The Prosecution will obtain and receive those documents that I
4 intend to use to cross-examine Mr. Sacirbey in advance of the
5 cross-examination. I have no difficulty getting them those documents and
6 giving them those documents.
7 With regard to the consultation as between the Prosecution and
8 counsel in New York
9 order that the Chamber has made with regard to this matter, unless the
10 Prosecution now is standing in the shoes of Mr. Sacirbey's counsel. They
11 would have, quite frankly -- they would have, quite frankly, no interest
12 with regard to that particular issue to the extent that there are any
13 concerns, Mr. Sacirbey is well-represented by his counsel. That's why he
14 has counsel. That's why the Court made the decision that he, unlike any
15 other witness in this trial, would be afforded the opportunity to have
16 counsel present with him so that his rights could be protected with
17 regard to any incrimination that he may engage in, if such a thing
19 So I think there's a bit of a both logical conceptual as well as
20 legal disconnect between the argument that has been just made by
21 Ms. Bolton with regard to that particular question. And the reality of
22 the situation we're in and the purpose for which Mr. Sacirbey has counsel
23 present and the [indiscernible] purpose for which the Prosecution is here
24 which is independent of Mr. Sacirbey, none of us - neither party - has
25 any property in the witness, and since his rights can be obviously ably
1 represented and looked after by counsel, I don't think that is really an
2 appropriate concern.
3 I would say the same thing I've said before, and I would greatly
4 appreciate to be able to engage my cross-examination in a single,
5 continuous session or sessions, as the Prosecution has been able to
6 engage in, in their direct of this gentleman, in a continuous session. I
7 don't believe that anybody foresaw that his testimony would take the
8 period of time that it took. I understand there were some difficulties
9 technically. I understand there were some difficulties technically that
10 arose. However, I did not expect that I would be, on a Friday afternoon
11 at this late hour, all of a sudden beginning my examination of
12 Mr. Sacirbey.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you --
14 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, may be permitted to speak, please?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm afraid no, Mr. Sacirbey. Just hold on. You
16 might, maybe, a little later but not just now.
17 Do you have any submissions to make on Madam Bolton's point that
18 you are on notice, technology is working today for the first time, there
19 is a need to save time, there's a question of costs, that is not to take
20 into account to set up all there.
21 Do you have any response to those?
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I have no way -- I don't have any idea, to
23 be perfectly honest with you, how appropriately to respond to the issues
24 of cost whatsoever because we will be engaging in an expenditure of cost
25 by virtue of the fact that we will be having further videolinks, which
1 have now been scheduled for three days, so I don't know whether or not,
2 by virtue of being able to stop right now, we may be well saving costs.
3 I don't know. I have no idea. I just don't know. I don't know, but I
4 have no idea -- I don't know what the costs are that are involved.
5 With regard to the fact that it is technically working today for
6 the first time, I understand that the glitches are worked out, and we are
7 now in a situation where it is going to proceed appropriately and
9 I really -- I'm really asking for the Chamber to seriously
10 consider my request. I think that it will make for a much better record,
11 trial, and situation; and I don't think it really offends, really, in any
12 fashion whatsoever, the speed with which things are going, the economy of
13 time, or the usage of time.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, I just was -- since October, each
17 time the Prosecution has requested that we accommodate them, no matter
18 what it may be, we have.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Sacirbey, you -- you wanted to say something?
20 It's an exceptional circumstances. Ordinarily, I shouldn't be hearing,
21 but I would like hear to you have to say.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, first, I would like to ask that
23 my counsel, Peter Guirguis, be allowed to enter the room because we are
24 now crossing into the issue of cross-examination. Second of all, is that
25 permitted, Your Honour?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want him to come in, in the place of
2 Madam Corominas.
3 THE WITNESS: Ms. Corominas. That would be fine, although for
4 this brief period, if it is possible for them to be here, both, that's
5 fine. If you otherwise insist on only one, then it should be
6 Mr. Guirguis, since we are now crossing into cross-examination issues.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Whatever is easiest for the Chamber. At this
8 time, we have no objection to both being in the room at this time.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may call Mr. Guirguis in, Mr. Sacirbey.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour, and I will try to
11 be brief on the rest of it. I understand the urgency on the matter.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, there are some presumptions that are
14 being made as to why I would like to have counsel here, and they may be,
15 in fact, prejudicial to the issue; and second of all, I have been advised
16 on numerous occasions that I should not appear before this Court period
17 because it can only serve against my interest. So if I wish to avoid any
18 sort of incrimination or, in any way, some sort of other unfavourable
19 result for myself, I should not have appeared in the first place. I
20 would like the Court to know that, in fact, I'm here very much as a
21 willing witness, and believe it to be a part of my responsibilities to
22 this Court, to justice, and to the victims, as well as the positions that
23 I have served in the past. And if I may, I will just read very briefly a
24 short statement that I made on this point.
25 Your Honours, during my initial appearance and, of course, today
1 before the Court, I was surprised by the opposition so raised by Defence
2 counsel to the presence of my legal counsel along my side --
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't know whether this is necessarily an
6 appropriate submission considering the issue at hand.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Can you just hold on.
8 I did say it is exceptional, he shouldn't have been heard, but I
9 would like to hear him.
10 Yes, Mr. Sacirbey.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, as the Court is aware, I had hoped the
12 opportunity to actually testify viva voce in The Hague and be responsive
13 to this Court's direct request for my appearances in The Hague. My
14 counsel's presence in the Court and viewing gallery, at that time, could
15 have also been accommodated, consistent with the rules. (redacted)
19 obstructions to my appearances before the Court have a political and
20 legal character in which my counsel has been engaged --
21 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Your Honour --
22 THE WITNESS: So a long and complex set of procedures --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.
24 MS. BOLTON: Mr. Sacirbey, we are now into issues that should not
25 be happening in public. We're going need to redact the record, and if he
1 is going to go on, on this note, then we would need to go into closed
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't understand why that is being raised
4 unless there is something that we -- since I initially thought that this
5 was an appropriate thing to be done notice first place, but since he is
6 giving a statement, I don't understand why Ms. Bolton is rising, at this
7 point in time, in the absence of there being something that the Defence
8 knows nothing at all about, and by that I mean nothing at all about.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What issues are these that require us to go into
10 private session?
11 MS. BOLTON: These would be issues -- Court's indulgence.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 MS. BOLTON: These are issues that were the subject of
15 confidential filings, Your Honour.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, did you say something, Madam Bolton.
18 MS. BOLTON: My concern was about issues in confidential filings,
19 Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
21 Mr. Sacirbey --
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour once again perhaps I'm
23 missing a point here. I know of no confidential filings as they relate
24 to Mr. Sacirbey. There may well be, but I don't know of them. The only
25 filing that I know of, with regard to Mr. Sacirbey, happens to be the
1 Prosecution's motion for advance filing on the scope of permissible
2 cross-examination which was a public filing. Apparently, there is some
3 other documentation that is being referred to. I don't know what it is.
4 But this filing is a public filing and is the only filing I know with
5 regard to Mr. Sacirbey. If there are confidential filings that we're not
6 privy to, then I would appreciate, before proceeding any further, to have
7 some notice of what those may be.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Sacirbey, I'd like to just say something to
9 Mr. Sacirbey before I come back to you.
10 I had anticipated that you were going to talk about this -- how
11 your situation would affect whether we can carry on with the case now or
12 whether we should postpone. But you seem to have a prepared statement
13 there which you want to make, which doesn't seem to have any relevance
14 whatsoever to the request for a postponement.
15 Now I will give you an example of what I thought you were going
16 to contribute to this debate about -- something about your own
17 availability, depending on your commitments that side. And I do not
18 think that that statement that you're wanting to read is apposite to the
19 issues before us right now. But right now, we want to talk about whether
20 to postpone or to go on with the cross-examination. I'm sorry. I have
21 given you a false hope, but I think I must stop you here. I hope you do
23 MR. GUIRGUIS: Your Honour, Your Honour, this is Peter Guirguis,
24 returning into the room, with the Court's permission now, and if I may
25 address the Court on the availability issue. I understand that the
1 court's next sitting will be on June 29th through 1st of July. And I
2 wanted to let the Court know that I will not be available on those dates.
3 I tried to free myself on those dates upon hearing that the testimony
4 would continue, but I'm actually going to be travelling for a hearing on
5 the 1st of July on the West coast of the United States and must prepare
6 for that and travel to that, so I don't know if the Court is planning --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 MR. GUIRGUIS: [Overlapping speakers] ... the following week of
9 July --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guirguis, the Court cannot make accomodation
11 to that extent. Obviously, if you are not available, there is another
12 counsel sitting next to you, if not so, if Mr. Sacirbey needs two
13 counsel, he can engage in other counsel. I don't think that even in your
14 domestic jurisdiction a situation like this would be taken into account,
15 taking into account your availability and not the availability of the
16 witness for purposes of the programme of the Court.
17 So I'm sorry, I cannot take that into account, I'm sorry.
18 I think we should go back to addressing the question of
19 postponement. Have parties finished with their submissions?
20 Madam Bolton are you finished?
21 MS. BOLTON: The only thing I wanted to address was the issue
22 that my friend raised about, first of all, indicating that he does intend
23 to give us the documents. I would like to know when. And secondly, the
24 issue with respect to communicating about those documents with counsel.
25 I had understood Your Honours' previous ruling to be that Mr. Sacirbey's
1 counsel wouldn't have any standing before this Court. And they wouldn't
2 be, therefore, raising objections. It would be incumbent on me to raise
3 those objections, and if what is the case, then that's why I would like
4 the opportunity to speak to them.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did the Court say it is incumbent for you to raise
6 those objections?
7 MS. BOLTON: What you had said is in previous discussions with
8 Mr. Guirguis that he had no standing before the Court and so --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
10 MS. BOLTON: -- that's what I understood from it, and maybe I
11 misunderstood what Your Honour meant.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did I say that you are going to raise objections
13 on his behalf?
14 MS. BOLTON: No, but if -- somebody has to. If there is
15 something objectionable asked about the documents, I'm not going to be in
16 a position to make an objection. I'm not understanding, Your Honour.
17 I'm sorry.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I haven't been told why they are next to Mr.
19 Sacirbey. They said they would like to be allowed to sit there, that's
21 MS. BOLTON: No --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: They're not asking for any standing. I thought
23 that they are to give Mr. Sacirbey legal advice, as and when he needs it.
24 We have heard today, and we've heard before, even in the motions, about
25 these allegations against Mr. Sacirbey and his right to -- to not
1 self-incriminate, and I thought that's the reason for their presence.
2 And all they have to is to say, You don't have to answer that question.
3 That's it.
4 MS. BOLTON: I have misunderstood, I think then, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. But I just wanted to emphasise that I
6 never, ever, said that you may ask the questions that Mr. Guirguis would
7 have asked because, indeed, he doesn't have any standing before this
9 MS. BOLTON: No, I think I -- I understand --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You sort of extended my --
11 MS. BOLTON: I think I misunderstood the effect of Your Honour's
12 ruling, and now you've clarified it for me, and I apologise. Thank you.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are most welcome.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Request is --
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.
18 We are going to postpone now. Mr. Sacirbey, I am going to
19 repeat, particularly now that we are going to be postponing for a fairly
20 lengthy time. I'm going to repeat the ritual that I have been repeating
21 to you every day: You may not discuss the case with anybody during the
22 period of postponement. The case is going to stand postponed to the 29th
23 of June, we'll have to make arrangements -- quarter past 2.00 in the
24 afternoon, same time as you have been coming. You will be advised of the
1 Court adjourned until the 29th of June --
2 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, just the issue of redaction
3 I have raised --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, I'm sure they will give me something to
5 redact. I'll give you something sign, sorry.
6 MS. BOLTON: Okay, thank you very much.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 Court stands adjourned until 29th of June, in the afternoon,
9 quarter past 2.00.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.28 p.m.
11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day of June,
12 2009, at 2.15 p.m.