Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7930

 1                           Monday, 6 July, 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  Could we please have appearances for today starting with the

 7     Prosecution.

 8             MR. HARMON:  Good morning Your Honours.  Good morning counsel.

 9     Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.  Mark Harmon,

10     Bronagh McKenna, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you for very much, Mr. Harmon.

12             For the Defence.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good morning to all.  Daniela Tasic, Chad Mair,

14     Jason Keck, Novak Lukic.  I'm Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of Mr. Perisic.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

16             Mr. Harmon.

17             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, Ms. McKenna will lead the next witness.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam McKenna.

19             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, our witness this morning was formerly

20     a 92 ter witness, but we will be led viva voce today.  And our witness is

21     protected and has facial and voice distortion.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We have no objection to that whatsoever.  I do

23     have one brief matter of inquiry.  My understanding the witness speaks

24     English.

25             MS. McKENNA:  The witness does speak some English but will be

Page 7931

 1     testifying through B/C/S.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you so much.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm going to try to have to read because I haven't

 4     heard what you are saying.

 5             Madam McKenna, then you asked to go into private session for the

 6     witness to come in.

 7             MS. McKENNA:  Yes, please, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

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Page 7932











11 Page 7932 redacted. Private session.















Page 7933

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 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 8             Yes, Madam McKenna.

 9             MS. McKENNA:

10        Q.   Were the underlying facts to your plea agreement that on the 16th

11     of July, 1995, you and other members of the Bosnian Serb army did

12     participate in the summary execution of hundreds of unarmed Bosnian men

13     at the Branjevo Military Farm?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MS. McKENNA:  Could I please have 65 ter 2680 on the screen.

16        Q.   Is this a copy of your plea agreement?

17        A.   As far as I can remember, yes, it is.

18             MS. McKENNA:  Could we please turn to the last page, which is

19     page 8 on e-court.

20        Q.   Is this your signature?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, if I may tender this as an exhibit.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document --

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No objection.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

Page 7934

 1     please be given an exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2520.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam McKenna, I saw it was on the first page of

 4     this document that it was under seal.  Are you tendering under seal, too,

 5     in these proceedings?

 6             MS. McKENNA:  Yes, Your Honour, under seal.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Under seal, please.

 8             MS. McKENNA:

 9        Q.   On the 5th of March, 1998, were you sentenced by Trial Chamber of

10     this Tribunal to serve a term of five years imprisonment?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You've testified in the Karadzic and Mladic Rule 61 hearing, the

13     Krstic trial, and Milosevic trial, and the Popovic trial; is that

14     correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And are you aware that your testimony in the Krstic trial was

17     placed into evidence in the trial of Blagojevic and Jokic?

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Objection.  Relevance.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam McKenna.

20             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, I'm merely seeking to establish that

21     the witness has testified on numerous occasions before the Tribunal.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see you are on your feet, Mr. Guy-Smith.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, I'll sit, unless we need a rejoinder.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Do I understand it you are saying that you

25     accept that explanation by your colleague?

Page 7935

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, his awareness of whether or not his testimony

 2     was placed anywhere is irrelevant.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam.

 4             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, I stand by what I previously stated.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

 6             MS. McKENNA:

 7        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, I'd like to first focus briefly on your military

 8     background prior to you joining the VRS.  In which armies did you serve?

 9        A.   The regular army, the Yugoslav People's Army.  After that I was

10     with the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO, the Croatian Defence

11     Council.

12        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, if I could backtrack slightly, I am afraid I

13     didn't receive an answer to the previous question that I had asked, which

14     is are you aware that your testimony in the Krstic trial was placed into

15     evidence in the trial of Blagojevic and Jokic.

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You have stated that you served in the JNA, the ABiH,

18     and the HVO.  Could you briefly outline your service in the JNA?

19        A.   I was in Belgrade at the Marshal Tito Barracks from 1990 to 1992,

20     and I was also in Slavonia in the interim.

21        Q.   At what point did you join the ABiH?

22        A.   I believe it was July, June or July, 1992.

23        Q.   And for how long did you serve in that army?

24        A.   Two or three months.  Three months perhaps.

25        Q.   Why did you leave?

Page 7936

 1        A.   Because around Tuzla, the HVO was established.  They asked me if

 2     I wanted to join the military police at the HVO, and I did.

 3        Q.   And how long did you serve in the military police of the HVO?

 4        A.   From October 1992 until November 1993.

 5        Q.   And why did you leave the HVO?

 6        A.   While I was with the HVO military police, I helped local Serbian

 7     civilians to go to the area controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska

 8     for which I was arrested and detained, and then I decided I did not want

 9     to stay there any longer, I wanted to go somewhere abroad with my wife.

10        Q.   So where did you go?

11        A.   The person, the Serb concerned lived in the same place where I

12     lived and he promised me that his family, which was living in

13     Switzerland, would help me go there.  However, that didn't happen.

14        Q.   So where did you in fact leave to?

15        A.   I moved to Republika Srpska.

16        Q.   What date did you move to the Republika Srpska?

17        A.   I can't remember the date, but I know it was November 1993.

18        Q.   What happened to you in November 1993 in Republika Srpska?

19        A.   When I moved to Republika Srpska, I ran into the military police

20     of the VRS, and because I had been in the HVO they interrogated me and

21     then they questioned the Serbian civilians who had crossed over into

22     Republika Srpska with me.  They said I was a decent man, there was no

23     problem, and a day later they released me to go to Bijeljina, which I did

24     on the same day.

25        Q.   Did you stay in the Republika Srpska?

Page 7937

 1        A.   I did.  I can't say how long.  Perhaps a week or two.  However,

 2     in Bijeljina, the paramilitary forces who knew that I was a Croat, that I

 3     was from Tuzla started to threaten me, and then I moved again to the

 4     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia this time.

 5        Q.   How long did you stay in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

 6        A.   From December 1993 until March 1994.

 7        Q.   And why did you leave?

 8        A.   Because I had nowhere to stay there.  Nowhere to be.  Also, the

 9     police were arresting people with Bosnian papers and turned them back to

10     Bosnia to man the frontlines.

11        Q.   What did you do -- where did you go when you left the Federal

12     Republic of Yugoslavia?

13        A.   We went to Foca because my wife had family there.

14        Q.   Where is Foca?

15        A.   In the south of Bosnia.  South-east.

16        Q.   And what did you do in spring 1994 in the Republika Srpska?

17        A.   In the spring of 1994 when I arrived at Foca when they checked my

18     ID, the one I was carrying at the time, they noticed my name and surname

19     and they asked me, Are you a Serb or a Croat?  I said I was a Croat.  And

20     they told me to go to the police station in Foca the next day for an

21     interview.

22        Q.   Did you do so?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   At what point did you join the Army of the Republika Srpska?

25        A.   I think it was April 1994.

Page 7938

 1        Q.   And why did you decide to join?

 2        A.   Because I was able-bodied and of military age, and there was no

 3     choice.

 4        Q.   Which unit of the VRS did you join?

 5        A.   I joined the unit that was called unit for special purposes.  It

 6     comprised eight persons, out of which six Croats, one Slovene, and one

 7     Muslim.

 8        Q.   And where was that unit based?

 9        A.   Near Bijeljina, a place called Dvorovi.

10        Q.   Did that unit evolve over time?

11        A.   Yes, it did.

12        Q.   Can you explain how?

13        A.   The command changed, and we had two platoons.  One platoon was in

14     the barracks in Bijeljina and another was in Vlasenica.

15        Q.   How many men were in the unit in total?

16        A.   Around 60 members, I believe.

17        Q.   And did the unit's name change?

18        A.   Yes.  It was called the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

19        Q.   And when did this growth in the unit occur?

20        A.   October 1994, I think.

21        Q.   And in terms of the 60 men, where did they come from?

22        A.   In the Bijeljina platoon, as I said before, there were a few

23     Croats, one Muslim, and one Slovene.  The rest were Serbs from all over

24     Republika Srpska.  And in the Vlasenica platoon, most of the men came

25     from the environs of Vlasenica.

Page 7939

 1        Q.   What type of operations did the 10th Sabotage Detachment carry

 2     out?

 3        A.   We would go behind enemy lines, attack their units, blow up their

 4     mortars, their munitions depots, et cetera.

 5        Q.   Were you involved in these operations?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I'd like to focus on the command structure in 1995 starting from

 8     the highest ranking people of whom you are aware.  Who was the head of

 9     your unit?

10        A.   At the head of my unit, it was Colonel Petar Salapura.

11        Q.   And what was his position?

12        A.   He was in the Main Staff in Han Pijesak, Crna Rijeka, he was in

13     the intelligence service.

14        Q.   Do you know what his position in the intelligence service was?

15        A.   I don't know to say it in my native tongue.  I can only say that

16     he was in the intelligence service.  Intelligence gathering,

17     counter-intelligence.

18        Q.   To whom was he subordinate?

19        A.   I think he was subordinated to General Tolimir and

20     General Mladic.

21        Q.   So the 10th Sabotage Detachment was directly subordinate to the

22     Main Staff of the VRS?

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm going to object to that as being a leading

24     question.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam McKenna.

Page 7940

 1             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, the fact that the 10th Sabotage

 2     Detachment is directly subordinate to the Main Staff --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's an objection, ma'am, you've got to answer the

 4     objection.

 5             MS. McKENNA:  My statement was -- is in fact an adjudicated fact,

 6     but I'll rephrase the question.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, ma'am.

 8             MS. McKENNA:

 9        Q.   Was the the 10th Sabotage Detachment directly subordinated to the

10     Main Staff or was --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam, you are still leading.

12             MS. McKENNA:

13        Q.   To what was the 10th Sabotage Detachment subordinate?

14        A.   To the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  The VRS.

15        Q.   Did Colonel Salapura have a deputy?

16        A.   I think that he did, but I don't know that for a fact.  He never

17     introduced himself to us as Salapura's deputy, but I do know that he was

18     Major Pecanac, that's all I know about him.

19        Q.   And where was Major Pecanac based?

20        A.   Also in Han Pijesak, at the Main Staff.

21        Q.   Who was the commander of the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

22        A.   Lieutenant Milorad Pelemis.

23        Q.   And from whom did he receive orders?

24        A.   As far as I know, from Salapura.

25        Q.   Where was he based?

Page 7941

 1        A.   Do you mean Pelemis?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   In Bijeljina.

 4             MS. McKENNA:  If I could have Exhibit P2128 on the screen.  Can I

 5     have page 2 of both the B/C/S and the English.

 6        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, have you had an opportunity to review this

 7     document prior to testifying today?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   As you can see, it's an order dated 7th of February, 1994, from

10     the chief of personnel administration of the VJ regarding the transfer of

11     VJ officers.  I'd like you to focus your attention on item 3, which is on

12     page 3 of the B/C/S and page 3 and 4 of the English version.

13             Do you recognise the individual identified in item 3?

14        A.   I recognise the first and last name and the rank.  There is no

15     photograph in order for me to be able to confirm that that is indeed the

16     person.

17        Q.   When you say the person, could you be more specific?

18        A.   Yes, this is Colonel Petar Salapura.

19             MS. McKENNA:  I'd now like to --

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, so the record is clear, I think we

21     should say the name on the document is Colonel Petar Salapura.  Because

22     he has indicated there is no individual to recognise.

23             MS. McKENNA:  I think that that is clear from the record.

24        Q.   But could you clarify it.  What I understand your testimony to be

25     is that the name on the document is Colonel Petar Salapura; is that the

Page 7942

 1     name of the person who you have identified as the head of your unit?

 2        A.   Yes.  That's the first and last name and the rank of the person

 3     whom I mentioned as the commander of our unit.

 4        Q.   Can I now direct your attention to item number 5, which is on

 5     page 4 of the B/C/S and page 4 of the English version.  Again, do you

 6     recognise the person identified in item number 5?

 7        A.   Yes.  I only recognise the last name.  I didn't know the person's

 8     first name.  And the rank is that of captain 1st class.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we scroll down the English, please.  We

10     can't see the rank.

11             MS. McKENNA:  Could I have P2111.

12        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, have you had an opportunity to review this

13     document before testifying?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   It is a report of the 2nd of March, 1994, from the command of the

16     Special Unit Corps of the VJ to the VJ General Staff personnel --

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, at this point I'm going to object to

18     counsel testifying.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam McKenna.

20             MS. McKENNA:

21        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, could I draw your attention to the upper left-hand

22     corner of the document, and could you please describe what the document

23     is.

24        A.   I think that this is a document whereby Milorad Pelemis, staff

25     sergeant 1st class, was assigned to return to his parent unit.

Page 7943

 1        Q.   The wording in the upper left-hand corner of the document is what

 2     I'm specifically interested in at the moment.

 3        A.   Command of the corps of the federal -- or, I don't know what

 4     S stands for.  It's the command of the corps of the Army of Yugoslavia,

 5     strictly confidential number, 623-2, dated 2nd March, 1994.

 6        Q.   So this is a letter from the command of that corps?

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Once again, that is an inappropriate question,

 8     and it's leading, and it shouldn't be done.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam McKenna.

10             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, I'm merely seeking to identify the

11     document, rather than actually testify.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The witness, not you, must identify the document.

13             MS. McKENNA:

14        Q.   Witness, what is the date of this document?

15        A.   2nd of March, 1994.

16        Q.   And from whom is the document sent?

17        A.   The General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, personnel

18     administration.

19        Q.   Let me direct your attention to item 2 in this document.  Do you

20     recognise the person identified in item 2?

21        A.   Yes.  I recognise the first and last name.

22        Q.   Who is that person?

23        A.   This is Milorad Pelemis who was the commander of our unit and who

24     was in Bijeljina.

25        Q.   Just to clarify the origin of this document if we could, who has

Page 7944

 1     signed the document?

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, if it's within his personal knowledge.

 3             MS. McKENNA:  It's apparent on the face of the document.  I'm

 4     simply --

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Then the question is irrelevant.

 6             MS. McKENNA:  I'll move on.

 7        Q.   Did the members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment receive any

 8     training?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   From whom did they receive that training?

11        A.   Around 50 members of my unit were, in late November or early

12     December, sent to Pancevo to the barracks of the Army of Yugoslavia there

13     where they received training.

14        Q.   In which year did this take place?

15        A.   In 1994.

16        Q.   Did you attend this training?

17        A.   No, I wasn't among them when they received training in Pancevo.

18     However, later on the officers came from Pancevo to Republika Srpska and

19     continued the training.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you go on, I see the witness's answer

21     is typed in as part of the question.  We need to say did you attend this

22     training and then answer, no.  Thank you.

23             MS. McKENNA:

24        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, I'll come back to your -- to the training that you

25     later received, but specifically with reference to the training in

Page 7945

 1     December 1994, how long did this training last?

 2        A.   I think two to three weeks.

 3        Q.   And do you know what type of training was provided in Pancevo?

 4        A.   The training -- I'm trying to remember my tongue.  They received

 5     training on ammunition, laying explosives, destroying buildings, and

 6     fitness training.

 7             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, may I move briefly into closed

 8     session.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you want closed session, or do you want private

10     session?

11             MS. McKENNA:  Excuse me, private session.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

13 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in private session.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

16             Yes, Madam McKenna.

17             MS. McKENNA:  Could I have 65 ter number 9490.

18        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, have you had an opportunity to review this

19     document before testifying?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What is the date of this document?

22        A.   1st of February, 1995.

23        Q.   From whom was the document sent?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you move up on the English side.

25             MS. McKENNA:  I think we'll need to move on to page 2 of the

Page 7946

 1     English.  Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Major-General Zdravko Tolimir.

 3             MS. McKENNA:

 4        Q.   To whom is the document sent?

 5             MS. McKENNA:  If we could move back to the first page on the

 6     English version.  If we could just scroll down on the English version,

 7     please.  Right to the bottom.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Army of Yugoslavia, General Mrksic.

 9             MS. McKENNA:

10        Q.   The document refers to a training course that took place in

11     Pancevo.  Is that the training course to which you have -- which you've

12     described in your earlier testimony?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   It also contains a request to send instructors to the

15     Bijeljina Garrison.  Did -- were those instructors sent to Bijeljina?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   In the first line of the letter, it refers to an agreement

18     between General Mrksic and Colonel Salapura.  Are you aware of any such

19     agreement relating to training?

20        A.   I was, of course I was, because members of our unit went to

21     Pancevo and because the three officers of the Army of Yugoslavia came to

22     Bijeljina.  But I didn't see this document before yesterday.

23             MS. McKENNA:  May I tender this document as an exhibit under

24     seal.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

Page 7947

 1     please be given an exhibit number and kept under seal.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2521 under

 3     seal.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             MS. McKENNA:  Could we please move back into open session.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

10             Yes, Madam McKenna.

11             MS. McKENNA:

12        Q.   Can you describe the second training course that the members --

13     that you have referred to that the members of the 10th Sabotage

14     Detachment received?

15        A.   The second training course took place in Vlasenica.  The officers

16     came to Bijeljina, changed the licence plates on their vehicles and

17     changed their travel passes to cover the entire Republika Srpska and went

18     on to Vlasenica.  As I said, I attended the training course in Vlasenica.

19     They demonstrated to us how to handle various weapons, explosives, and

20     how to properly plant explosives, et cetera, and we had fitness

21     exercises.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'd like to understand what you mean, sir, by

23     "changed their travel passes to cover the entire Republika Srpska."  I

24     don't understand what that means.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will explain this, Your Honour.

Page 7948

 1     When they came to Bijeljina, their vehicles had licence plates of the

 2     Army of Yugoslavia.  Because -- for the reasons of secrecy, that's at

 3     least what I believe, they asked the commanders of our unit to give them

 4     licence plates of Republika Srpska, as well as driving licences or

 5     permits so that if they are stopped at a check-point, they wouldn't need

 6     to explain why they were there.  The gist of it was to make sure that

 7     their stay there remained a secret.

 8             MS. McKENNA:

 9        Q.   What type of uniforms did these officers wear?

10        A.   They had camouflage uniform, but not of the sort used by the Army

11     of Republika Srpska.  The uniform belonged to the former JNA.  It was of

12     a -- it was a mixture of lighter and darker shades of green.

13        Q.   Did they wear any insignia?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Do you know which barracks these officers came from?

16        A.   Pancevo.

17        Q.   And how do you know that?

18        A.   The individuals from my unit, you see, we had an office and we

19     had a dormitory in our barracks, and members of my unit who went to

20     Pancevo earlier on recognised the officers as the same officers who had

21     trained them back in Pancevo.

22        Q.   Why did the training take place in the Vlasenica platoon rather

23     than Bijeljina?

24        A.   Because the Vlasenica platoon was not stationed in Vlasenica

25     proper.  It was located in an abandoned village near Vlasenica, and thus

Page 7949

 1     proved a suitable venue because training could remain secret and because

 2     the general landscape was suitable for training purposes.

 3        Q.   And how many members of your unit received this training?

 4        A.   All of us received it.

 5        Q.   And how long did the training last?

 6        A.   I don't know exactly.  Two to three weeks.  I can't remember.

 7        Q.   And can you recall when this training took place?

 8        A.   In early 1995.

 9        Q.   Were those members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment who were

10     trained in 1994 and early 1995 by VJ officers, were they still with the

11     10th Sabotage Detachment during the take-over of Srebrenica in July 1995?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Are you aware of any other occasions on which VRS soldiers from

14     other VRS units were trained by VJ officers?

15        A.   Yes.  I heard that several units from Bijeljina attended a

16     training course, but I'm not sure of that.  I only heard about it.

17        Q.   Which units did you hear rumours about?

18        A.   Crni.  This was the unit attached with the Eastern Bosnia Corps

19     and was stationed in Bijeljina, and another unit which was also attached

20     to the East Bosnia Corps and was stationed in Bijeljina.

21        Q.   Do you know what the name of that second unit was?

22        A.   Panthers.

23        Q.   I'd like to move now to July 1995 and the operation to take over

24     Srebrenica.  Where were you on the morning of 10th July, 1995?

25        A.   I was in the barracks in Bijeljina.

Page 7950

 1        Q.   And what instructions, if any, did you receive that morning?

 2        A.   The commander of the Bijeljina platoon whose name was Franc Kos

 3     told us that we should go home and collect our personal hygiene kit and a

 4     change of uniform, if anybody wanted to have an extra one.  He told us

 5     that we were about to embark on a mission.

 6        Q.   Did he give you the specifics of the mission?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Was it usual for you to be sent on missions without knowing the

 9     detail?

10        A.   Yes.  Our unit functioned on this principle, we were a group of

11     soldiers and only the commander would know something about the mission,

12     and then only when you approach the area where you are supposed to carry

13     out the operation, only then do you find out all the details.

14        Q.   Was it only the -- which platoons were involved in the operation

15     in Srebrenica?

16        A.   The Bijeljina Platoon the Vlasenici Platoon.

17        Q.   How many members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in total were

18     involved?

19        A.   I cannot tell you exactly how many men because some individuals

20     from the Bijeljina platoon were on another mission, but I believe it was

21     around 40 people.

22        Q.   Where did you spend the evening of the 10th of July?

23        A.   The night of the 10th of July we spent on Vis elevation

24     overlooking Srebrenica.

25        Q.   And was there enemy fire that evening?

Page 7951

 1        A.   It wasn't fierce, just sporadic fire on nearby hills and woods.

 2        Q.   What type of uniforms did your unit wear at the point?

 3        A.   I personally had a black uniform on, as did some others in my

 4     unit.  Some people were wearing the VRS uniform, and yet others wore the

 5     US Army uniform.

 6        Q.   Did you have any insignia?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Were you wearing this insignia on the 11th of July?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Were you given anything else to wear?

11        A.   Yes.  On the morning of the 11th, we were given red ribbons to

12     put on our shoulders so that we can identify each other if we run into

13     some other unit of the Army of Republika Srpska because there were many

14     units from Sekovici, from Vlasenica, Milici, Bratunac.

15        Q.   What instructions were you given on the morning of the 11th?

16        A.   The commander of our unit, Lieutenant Milorad Pelemis, came and

17     told us that our unit was about to enter the town, or try to enter the

18     town, and that would be joined by around ten members of the Drina Wolves.

19        Q.   Did he tell you what to expect in the town?

20        A.   Yes, he said we should expect fierce resistance and that we

21     should not fire at civilians, that we should direct the civilians to go

22     to the football stadium in Srebrenica.

23        Q.   You've stated that you were to be joined by the Drina Wolves.

24     Who were the Drina Wolves?

25        A.   Members of the Drina Corps, as far as I know.  From Zvornik.

Page 7952

 1        Q.   Can you describe your entry into the town?

 2        A.   As I said, we were on that elevation Vis which was to the south

 3     of Srebrenica.  We walked from one building to another calling out to

 4     people to come out if there were people inside houses or other buildings.

 5     At the outset there was no resistance at all.  But as we were going

 6     deeper and deeper into the town, there was sporadic fire from surrounding

 7     hills and higher ground, and civilians also came out of their houses.

 8        Q.   Can you describe these civilians.

 9        A.   They were elderly people who had difficulty walking.

10        Q.   Did you encounter any military-aged men?

11        A.   Yes, but that was when we got -- as I assumed, because I had

12     never been in Srebrenica before, as we got to the centre of the town.

13        Q.   And what happened to this man?

14        A.   He was killed.

15        Q.   How was he killed?

16        A.   The commander of our unit, Milorad Pelemis, ordered one soldier

17     from the Vlasenica platoon to cut his throat.

18        Q.   Did you see this take place?

19        A.   Yes.  I am sorry, I said that in English, yes.

20        Q.   And what happened to this man's body?

21        A.   Soon after my commander told me and another three soldiers to go

22     back to the point from which we set out into the town to set up a

23     check-point there and to let him know when General Mladic and other

24     persons from the Drina Corps passed that point.  So as I left, that

25     person was still lying there in the street.  What happened later, I don't

Page 7953

 1     know.

 2        Q.   Had the man been armed?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   And how was he dressed?

 5        A.   In civilian clothes.

 6        Q.   When you went to set up the check-point, can you recall what time

 7     that was?

 8        A.   I can't remember exactly the time, but it was the afternoon, I

 9     believe.

10        Q.   And did Mladic in fact come past the check-point?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   How did he come past?

13        A.   There was a column, a motorcade of about three or four vehicles

14     and a military vehicle, Praga, at the head.  Mladic was in the first

15     vehicle which was a military Mercedes called Puh, P-u-h.

16        Q.   And did you inform Pelemis in accordance with your instructions?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   After Mladic came through, what did you do?

19        A.   We stayed there at the check-point to secure that road that came

20     into the town.  After maybe an hour or two, I and another soldier went

21     towards the town and ran into another group of four or five men from our

22     unit who had set up a check-point there.

23        Q.   Was there anyone with the men from your unit?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Who was that?

Page 7954

 1        A.   I found out that it was General Zivanovic, but I had never seen

 2     him before.

 3        Q.   And was there any conversation with General Zivanovic?

 4        A.   Yes.  These men from my unit knew the general better than I did

 5     and they were drinking rakija, the home-made brandy from a jerry-can.  I

 6     said, Do you know this general?  And one of the soldiers from my unit

 7     answered, He is not a general; he is a drunkard.  And then I also learned

 8     that the general would soon be retiring.  I know that because one soldier

 9     gave him as a present a hand-held launcher.

10             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, I note the time.  Would this be a

11     convenient time?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed it is.  We'll take a break and come back at

13     quarter to.  Court adjourned.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam McKenna.

17             MS. McKENNA:

18        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, I'm now going to show you a video and play some

19     short excerpts from it and ask you to identify if you can, certain

20     individuals you'll see.

21             MS. McKENNA:  Could I please have Exhibit P2390.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MS. McKENNA:

24        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, do you recognise these individuals?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7955

 1        Q.   Can you say what unit they are from?

 2        A.   My unit, the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

 3        Q.   And we've stopped the counter at 18 minutes, 44 point 7 seconds.

 4     Starting from the left to the right, do you know the names of any of

 5     these individuals?

 6        A.   Two persons in black uniform I cannot remember their names.  The

 7     person in green camouflage uniform I know as Cico, which was his

 8     nickname.  He was the driver of Milorad Pelemis.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MS. McKENNA:

11        Q.   We have stopped the counter at 19 minutes, 14 point 6 seconds.

12     Can you identify either of these individuals?

13        A.   Yes, as I said, they were from my unit.  The person in black

14     uniform, I cannot remember the name.  The person in camouflage uniform

15     was Cico our commander's driver.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MS. McKENNA:

18        Q.   We've stopped the counter at 19 minutes, 38 point 4 seconds.  Can

19     you identify this person?

20        A.   General Ratko Mladic.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MS. McKENNA:

23        Q.   We've now stopped the counter at 19 minutes, 48 point 5 seconds.

24     Can you identify this individual?

25        A.   That's General Zivanovic.

Page 7956

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MS. McKENNA:

 3        Q.   We've stopped the counter at 19 minutes, 57 point 4 seconds.  Who

 4     is this individual on the right?

 5        A.   He was in our unit, a driver.  The driver of Milorad Pelemis,

 6     nicknamed Cico.

 7        Q.   And what is he holding in his hand?

 8        A.   The UN blue helmet, I think.  I can't see very clearly.

 9        Q.   And what does he have under his belt?

10        A.   A blue beret.

11        Q.   Who is the individual in the far left of this still?

12        A.   General Mladic.

13        Q.   Let me be more specific.  The individual who is walking into the

14     still, can you recognise that individual?

15        A.   I can't recognise him now.  I think it's General Zivanovic.  I'm

16     not sure.

17        Q.   And who is the person in the centre of the still?

18        A.   General Mladic.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MS. McKENNA:

21        Q.   We have stopped the video now at 20 minutes, 20 seconds point 1.

22     Do you recognise the person in the forefront of this still?

23        A.   The picture is not very clear, but I think it's a person from our

24     unit, from the Vlasenica Platoon, Zoran Stupar.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 7957

 1             MS. McKENNA:

 2        Q.   We've stopped the counter at 23 minutes, 46 point 7 seconds.  Do

 3     you recognise these vehicles?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   How do you recognise them?

 6        A.   Well, that's the motorcade in which General Mladic was.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MS. McKENNA:

 9        Q.   In this still we can see Mladic shaking hands with an individual

10     in a black uniform.  Do you recognise the insignia on this soldier's left

11     shoulder?

12        A.   It's hard to see exactly, but I know that is a person from my

13     unit, and I know this insignia was the insignia of our unit.

14        Q.   And the soldier has what appears to be a red ribbon on his left

15     soldier.  Is that the red ribbon that you mentioned earlier in your

16     testimony?

17        A.   Yes, but even that I don't see clearly.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm not rising to object, I'm rising to see.  I

20     can't see it.

21             MS. McKENNA:  Just for the record, that is paused at 24 minutes,

22     35 point 1 seconds.  Is that a clearer picture?  Does that assist you?

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, thank you very much, counsel.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MS. McKENNA:

Page 7958

 1        Q.   We've paused the counter at 25 minutes, 6 point 5 seconds.  Can

 2     you recognise who the man on the far left of the still is?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you talking about the man whose head barely

 4     shows?

 5             MS. McKENNA:  I'm talking about the man who is behind the man who

 6     is second to the left.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean General Krstic.  I met him

 9     here in the courtroom.

10             MS. McKENNA:

11        Q.   Who is the man who is standing in front of General Krstic?

12        A.   A man from my unit, from the Bijeljina Platoon, Velimir Popovic.

13        Q.   And just to clarify, that's the man to the immediate right of

14     General Krstic?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To the immediate right?

16             MS. McKENNA:

17        Q.   On the still.

18        A.   In front of the general.  Do you mean the one in front of

19     General Krstic?

20        Q.   I do.  The one in front of General Krstic as this still is taken.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you recognise the man at the far right of the frame who is --

23     appears to be holding his hand to his head?

24        A.   Yes.  That's Stanko Savanovic, he was also a member of the

25     Bijeljina Platoon of our unit.

Page 7959

 1        Q.   And was the individual standing in the centre a member of the

 2     10th Sabotage Detachment also?

 3        A.   Yes, he was a member of the Vlasenica Platoon.

 4        Q.   Are you familiar with the location at which this still is taken?

 5        A.   Yes.  As I've already said, this was the second check-point which

 6     members of my unit erected ahead of the centre of town.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MS. McKENNA:

 9        Q.   We've paused the video at 32 minutes, 22 point 4 seconds.  Do you

10     recognise the individual in the far left of this still?

11        A.   Again, I can't see the individual clearly, but I watched the same

12     footage before, and I know that this is the commander of our unit,

13     Lieutenant Milorad Pelemis.

14             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, I've finished with the video.

15        Q.   I'd like to turn your attention now to the events of the 16th of

16     July, 1995.  Where were you on the morning of the 16th?

17        A.   I was in Vlasenica, in the house where the Vlasenica Platoon was

18     billeted.

19        Q.   And what instructions, if any, did you receive that morning?

20        A.   I and another member of my unit who was also on the

21     Bijeljina Platoon were in a room where we slept in the house, and

22     Brano Gojkovic said that we should get ready and that we would be

23     embarking on a mission.

24        Q.   From whom did he receive this order?

25        A.   From Lieutenant Milorad Pelemis.

Page 7960

 1        Q.   Who is Brano Gojkovic?

 2        A.   Brano Gojkovic is a member of the Vlasenica Platoon and also a

 3     member of our unit.

 4        Q.   Which soldiers received this assignment?

 5        A.   I did, Zoran Garanja, Stanko Savanovic, Marko Boskic, Vlastimir

 6     Golijan, Alexander Cvatkovic, Franc Kos.

 7        Q.   How many soldiers in total?

 8        A.   Eight.

 9        Q.   From which platoons did these soldiers come?

10        A.   Bijeljina and Vlasenica.

11        Q.   What steps did the group take that morning?

12        A.   We boarded a van which belonged to our unit, and set out in the

13     direction of Zvornik.  We took our weapons and gear and headed toward

14     Zvornik.

15             MS. McKENNA:  Could I please have Exhibit P2400.  And I'll ask

16     the usher's assistance with this exhibit, as it is a map I'd like to have

17     the witness mark.

18        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, if you could mark the route that you drove that

19     morning between Vlasenica --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we zoom in on the map a little bit.  We can

21     hardly read what is written on it.

22             MS. McKENNA:  I think we'll have to zoom out slightly.  And

23     scroll down.  Yes, that should be fine.  Thank you.

24        Q.   Again, Mr. Erdemovic, if you could please mark on the map the

25     route that you took between Vlasenica and Zvornik.

Page 7961

 1        A.   We set out from Vlasenica via Milici, Nova Kasaba,

 2     Konjevic Polje, and reached the town of Zvornik.

 3             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you.  Could I please tender this marked map

 4     as an exhibit.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That map is admitted into evidence.  May it please

 6     be given an exhibit number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2522.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MS. McKENNA:

10        Q.   Where did you report to in Zvornik?

11        A.   Our vehicle pulled up in front of what formally used to be a

12     business, I believe.  There were quite a few large buildings there.  We

13     stopped next to the reception box which was by the main gate.

14             MS. McKENNA:  Could I please have the document with ID number

15     0219-1398.

16        Q.   Do you recognise this building?

17        A.   Yes.  The building was part of the complex including several

18     buildings, I believe.

19             MS. McKENNA:  May I tender this photograph as an exhibit.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The photograph is admitted into evidence.  May it

21     please be given an exhibit number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2523.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, just for purposes of clarification, I

24     believe this is one of the documents that we discussed -- I'm asking a

25     question, this is one of the documents, because it was not on the 65 ter

Page 7962

 1     list.

 2             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you for the reminder.  This was not on the

 3     65 ter list but was on the -- was in the site visit binder.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Right.  We have no objection to this document.

 5             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But how does this document relate to what the

 7     witness has been telling us?

 8             MS. McKENNA:

 9        Q.   Witness, could you please clarify.  How do you recognise this

10     document, or this photograph rather?

11        A.   I can't remember exactly at this time, but as I said before, I

12     believe that this is the building as part of the complex where our car

13     stopped upon reaching Vlasenica.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Vlasenica or Zvornik?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zvornik.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

17     please be given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that is Exhibit P2523.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             MS. McKENNA:

21        Q.   Could you explain what happened when you arrived at that building

22     or at the compound?

23        A.   Brano Gojkovic and Alexander Cvatkovic went into the building and

24     stayed some five to 10 minutes inside.  At that point they came out with

25     two lieutenant-colonels -- with a lieutenant-colonel and two policemen.

Page 7963

 1     They came out of the building.

 2        Q.   How did you know that the individual was a lieutenant-colonel?

 3        A.   I knew that the person was a lieutenant-colonel because he had

 4     the insignia on his chest.

 5        Q.   What type of uniform did he wear?

 6        A.   He wore a camouflage uniform of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 7        Q.   And was he wearing any insignia?

 8        A.   I can't remember exactly.  I don't think so.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you said just a few minutes ago that you

10     recognised that he was a lieutenant because of the insignia he wore on

11     his chest.  Look a line 22, page 33:

12             "I knew that the person was a lieutenant-colonel because he had

13     an insignia on his chest."

14             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, may I clarify.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, ma'am.

16             MS. McKENNA:

17        Q.   Was he wearing any indication of which unit or corps he was a

18     member of?

19        A.   No.  As far as I can remember, no.

20        Q.   And were the military policemen wearing any insignia denoting

21     corps or unit?

22        A.   As far as I remember they had the insignia saying military police

23     of the Drina Corps, but this was awhile back and I can't remember

24     exactly.

25        Q.   What instructions did you receive at that point?

Page 7964

 1        A.   Since the weather was warm, we got out of the vehicle.  When

 2     Brano and Alexander Cvatkovic came out of the building with the

 3     lieutenant-colonel and the two military policemen, they told us that we

 4     should get back into the van and that we would be following the vehicle

 5     holding the lieutenant-colonel and the two military policemen.

 6        Q.   Did you do this?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MS. McKENNA:  If I could once again have a copy of P2400.  And if

 9     we could scroll slightly upwards on that map.  Just a little bit further.

10     Thank you.

11        Q.   Could you please indicate on this map the route that you

12     travelled.

13        A.   We travelled along the road from Zvornik toward Bijeljina.  We

14     took a turn off that road to the left ahead of Pilica.

15             MS. McKENNA:  May I tender this as an exhibit.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

17     please be given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2524.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MS. McKENNA:

21        Q.   At what destination did you arrive?

22        A.   We stopped at a farm.

23        Q.   Describe the scene on your arrival.

24        A.   When we got there, it was a farm consisting of two to three

25     buildings.  There was an office where individuals who were working on the

Page 7965

 1     farm were present.  When we stopped, the lieutenant-colonel got out of

 2     that vehicle and went into that office.  I don't know what he told the

 3     individuals, but all of them left but one.

 4             MS. McKENNA:  Could I please have 65 ter number 2674 on the

 5     screen.

 6        Q.   Is this the location that you've described?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And is this how it looked in 1995?

 9        A.   As far as I can remember, yes.

10             MS. McKENNA:  May I please tender this as an exhibit.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

12     please be given an exhibit number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2525.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             MS. McKENNA:

16        Q.   What happened at that point?

17        A.   Brano went to talk to the lieutenant-colonel.  Several minutes

18     later, the lieutenant-colonel and the two military policemen got into

19     their car and left the farm.  Brano told us that in a few moments buses

20     would start arriving carrying individuals from Srebrenica.

21        Q.   Did he say at that point what would happen to the individuals?

22        A.   Yes.  That they would be shot, executed at the farm.

23        Q.   And what was your reaction to this?

24        A.   I couldn't believe that this would happen.  My reaction was that

25     I didn't want to do that.  I don't recall the exact words, but I didn't

Page 7966

 1     feel well.

 2        Q.   What was his response?

 3        A.   If you don't want to fire at them, give them your weapon, or

 4     rather, join their ranks and let them shoot at you.

 5        Q.   Did a bus in fact arrive at the farm?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   At what time?

 8        A.   I don't know exactly.  In the late morning hours.

 9        Q.   Who was on the bus?

10        A.   Civilians, men from Srebrenica, a driver, and two military

11     policemen.

12        Q.   How many civilians were there?

13        A.   Well, I don't know exactly, but I think a full bus load of them.

14        Q.   And how old were they?

15        A.   I can't say exactly, but I believe between 15 and 60 or 65 years

16     of age.  I don't know exactly.  Of various ages at any rate.

17        Q.   Can you describe their appearance.

18        A.   Do you mean their clothing?  When the two military policemen sent

19     over a group of ten of them, I believe all of them had civilian clothes

20     on.  As far as I can remember, their hands were tied and their eyes

21     blindfolded.

22        Q.   Did the military policemen have any insignia indicating corps or

23     unit?

24        A.   I didn't pay that much attention to it, but I believe that they

25     were from the Drina Corps.

Page 7967

 1             MS. McKENNA:  Could I please have 65 ter number 2673.

 2        Q.   Again, Mr. Erdemovic, I'm going to ask you to mark this

 3     photograph.  If you could mark where the bus was parked with a B.

 4        A.   The bus was parked in front of the garage, I think.  Here in this

 5     area.

 6        Q.   And you stated that the military policemen sent a group of ten

 7     civilians over to you.  Can you indicate the direction in which the

 8     civilians were sent?

 9        A.   The bus stopped here and the civilians were led in groups of ten

10     to this field down here.  Beyond the garage.

11             MS. McKENNA:  May I tender this as an exhibit, please.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

13     please be given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2526.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, was it only one bus that arrived at that

16     scene on that occasion?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How do you mean?  You mean at the

18     same moment or during that one day?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] During that one day.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Other buses arrived later.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How many?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell exactly, but I think

23     it was between 15 and 20 buses.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And were they all full of passengers?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not pay that much attention,

Page 7968

 1     but I think so.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, ma'am.

 3             MS. McKENNA:

 4        Q.   What instructions were you given?

 5        A.   We got instructions to line up into a firing squad, and we were

 6     told we would open fire at the people lined up in front of us who had

 7     their backs turned.

 8        Q.   Did you follow this order?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did all other members of the group follow the order?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   When the first group of ten had been executed, what happened?

13        A.   Again, ten people would get off the bus and, as I explained

14     before, they would be taken into that field and shot.

15        Q.   What were the military police doing at this time?

16        A.   I think they were on the bus, standing guard at the door of the

17     bus to prevent any escapes.

18        Q.   You've testified that between 15 to 20 buses arrived.

19        A.   Yes.  That's my estimate.  I cannot tell you exactly.

20        Q.   What was the procedure with these buses?

21        A.   They follow the same procedure.  People would be taken off the

22     bus, taken to the field and executed.  In certain cases when they

23     recognised some of the people getting off the bus, they would take them

24     to one side and, how shall I explain this, they mistreated them, abused

25     them.  Again I can't recall the words in my language.

Page 7969

 1        Q.   How long did the executions last that day?

 2        A.   As I said before, I think the first bus came between 10:00 and

 3     11.00 a.m., and that it was all over by 3.00, perhaps 4.00 p.m.  I cannot

 4     be precise about the time, but I'm sure it ended in the afternoon.

 5        Q.   And how many people were killed?

 6        A.   Again, it's my estimate, I do not know and I do not wish to know,

 7     but I think it was about 1.000 people.

 8        Q.   Were all of the executions that day carried out by the

 9     10th Sabotage Detachment?

10        A.   No, I don't know at what time exactly but members of the

11     Bratunac Brigade joined us at some point.

12        Q.   How many members were there?

13        A.   Between six and ten persons, I believe.

14        Q.   And what type of uniforms were they wearing?

15        A.   They were wearing the uniform of the Army of Republika Srpska

16     except for one who had the bottoms of the US Army uniform.

17        Q.   Did these soldiers have any insignia on their uniform?

18        A.   I cannot recall.  In that situation I was in, I wasn't paying

19     attention to such things.

20        Q.   So why did you believe they were from the Bratunac Brigade?

21        A.   Because the members of my unit who were originally from Vlasenica

22     recognised these men, and that's how I learned they were from the

23     Bratunac Brigade, from Bratunac.

24        Q.   Let me just clarify your evidence.  Is your testimony that the

25     soldiers were from Bratunac, or that they were from the Bratunac Brigade?

Page 7970

 1        A.   I believe they were from Bratunac, and I learned they were --

 2     they must have been from the Bratunac Brigade.

 3             MS. McKENNA:  Could I have the video at P02393.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While we are waiting for the video, sir, were all

 5     the people in the 15 to 20 buses executed?  Exception, of course, the

 6     people who were guiding them.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say this video is called, ma'am?  What is

 9     its reference number?

10             MS. McKENNA:  The reference number is P2393.  And it is a video

11     of the events of Potocari on the 12th of July.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MS. McKENNA:  I'm just going to play a brief segment of this

14     video, starting from 1 hour, 55 minutes, and 16 seconds.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16        Q.   We've paused the video at 1 hour, 55 minutes, 36 point 7 seconds.

17     Do you recognise the man in the left of this still?

18        A.   Yes.  That's the person who arrived at the farm from Bratunac.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, I'm finished with the video.  Could we

21     have document ID number 0299-2082.  Again this is a document that is not

22     on our exhibit list.

23        Q.   On this photograph, could you please mark where the bus was

24     parked with a B.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 7971

 1        Q.   And just to clarify, was the position where the first bus was

 2     parked, the position where the later buses also parked?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is that on the picture, sir, on which you've

 5     written B?  There's a whole thing that looks like a machine; I don't know

 6     what it is.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recognise exactly what

 8     this is, but I know that this is where the buses stopped.  This entire

 9     picture shows the Branjevo farm.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You testified that the buses had stopped in front

11     of the garage.  And this that appears on the picture doesn't look like a

12     garage to me.  Are you able to tell us what it is?

13             MS. McKENNA:  Perhaps, Your Honour, if I may be of assistance.

14        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, if you could mark on the picture the garage that

15     you mentioned in your earlier testimony.

16        A.   Yes.  This is the garage.

17             MS. McKENNA:  Does that answer your query, Your Honour?

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you say so, yes.  Although, I realise he has

19     just drawn a line, a perpendicular line.  I'm not quite sure what is the

20     full extent of the garage.

21             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, this may be clearer in a moment when

22     we return to the previous exhibit.  But for --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, ma'am.

24             MS. McKENNA:

25        Q.   Could you mark the garage that you've indicated with a G.

Page 7972

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   And just before we leave this photograph, if you could indicate,

 3     if you could draw a circle around the area in which the bodies lay, or

 4     rather a circle around the area of the execution site.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6             MS. McKENNA:  May I tender this as an exhibit.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

 8     an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2527.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             Yes, Madam McKenna.

12             MS. McKENNA:  Just to clarify the issue Your Honour has raised,

13     if we could have P2526.

14        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, the garage that you marked with a G on the

15     previous photograph, do you see it on this photograph?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And can you describe its location.

18        A.   Should I mark it?

19        Q.   Why don't you mark it.

20        A.   [Marks]

21             MS. McKENNA:  Does that clarify issues, Your Honour?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It confuses me.  I tell you where it confuses me.

23     On this picture the witness indicates that the people who were killed to

24     the right of the picture.  On the previous picture he pointed to the left

25     of the side of the garage.  The structure that I said I couldn't

Page 7973

 1     recognise for a garage, he went to the left of it on the picture and not

 2     to the right.

 3             MS. McKENNA:

 4        Q.   Where is the road -- do you see on this picture the road that you

 5     drove down to get to the farm?

 6        A.   This is the road by which we came to the farm.  I can tell you

 7     why it's confusing, because these are two pictures.  One is from a

 8     different angle than the first one.

 9        Q.   So if I understand your testimony correctly, you drove down the

10     road -- excuse me, the buses drove down the road, parked where you have

11     indicated with a B, and then the civilians were led beyond the garage

12     into the open field in the direction that is right, on this photograph?

13        A.   On the previous picture, the aerial picture, this field runs

14     around the garage.  This is the garage, and the field is behind the

15     garage.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We hear for the first time this is an

17     aerial picture.  Thank you.

18             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, may I tender the second marked version

19     of P2526.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] ...  There are two

21     pictures on the screen.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't know if there's a way of going through

23     this to make the record a little bit clear, but I can assure you that

24     when all of us go back to deal with this at a later point in time, we are

25     all going to have some confusion here.  And perhaps there may be some way

Page 7974

 1     of clarifying which picture is which.  To say previous picture on the

 2     record is really not going to be helpful in the future.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's why I've just asked the question

 4                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If any confusion remains,

 6     I agree with our colleague that we want absolute clarity on the record.

 7     Would you prefer for us to re-mark the photograph?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'd prefer you to prosecute your case, ma'am,

 9     clearly.  When you say "previous picture," which one are you referring

10     to?  Okay, now there's one picture.  Is this the one you want to mark?

11             MS. McKENNA:  This photograph is already in evidence.  It is

12     P2526.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.

14             MS. McKENNA:  As there was some confusion relating to the

15     position of the garage, I asked the witness to mark it -- mark the

16     position of the garage on this photograph with a G.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On which photograph, this one?

18             MS. McKENNA:  On this photograph.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, I don't see the G any longer.

20             MS. McKENNA:  We've lost it.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you like for him to mark it again.

22             MS. McKENNA:  Perhaps it would be most clear if we start with a

23     blank copy of the photograph to avoid confusion.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  As you please, ma'am.

25             MS. McKENNA:  Could we have P2400, please.  Excuse me, could we

Page 7975

 1     have -- excuse me, 65 ter number 2673.

 2        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, apologies for the confusion.  Could you please

 3     mark on this map where the bus was parked, where the buses parked that

 4     day.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   You've stated in your evidence that the civilians were led past

 7     the garage.  Could you please mark with a G where the garage that you

 8     refer to is on this photograph?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And could you indicate the direction in which the civilians were

11     led.

12        A.   I'm unable to mark exactly, where exactly on that field because

13     the helicopter is obscuring the view of that place on the picture.

14        Q.   But just to be clear, you've indicated that they were led to the

15     right of the garage beyond the tree into an open field.

16        A.   You mean to the right of the garage?

17        Q.   Past -- exactly.

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, does this resolve the confusion?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My confusion is in relation to two pictures

21     compared.  So looking at this picture alone, I'm not confused.  I

22     indicated to you much earlier that when the witness explained that the

23     other picture was an aerial picture, then I understood.

24             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 7976

 1             MS. McKENNA:  I note the time, would this be a convenient time --

 2     excuse me, may I tender this re-marked photograph?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 4     given an exhibit number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2528.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  If I may answer your question, yes, it

 7     is a convenient time if it is convenient for you.

 8             MS. McKENNA:  Thank, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are welcome.  We'll take a break and come back

10     at half past 12.00.  Court adjourned.

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam McKenna.

14             MS. McKENNA:

15        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, after the last bus had arrived and the executions

16     had finished, what happened?

17        A.   That same lieutenant-colonel came back together with the two

18     military policemen and told us that in the community hall in a nearby

19     place some 500 civilians from Srebrenica were kept and they were trying

20     to break out of the premises.  They told us that we should go there and

21     execute the individuals in the community hall, in the cultural hall.

22        Q.   What was your response to this order?

23        A.   I, together with some other individuals of my unit, said that we

24     did not wish to do that any longer.

25        Q.   Did any of the soldiers follow the lieutenant-colonel's order?

Page 7977

 1        A.   Yes, the group that a came from Bratunac went away with the

 2     lieutenant-colonel.

 3        Q.   What did you do after they had left?

 4        A.   When they left we stayed there for a few moments.  We were seated

 5     in front of the office, which was located in one of the buildings.  We

 6     then collected our weapons and gear, got into the van, and went in the

 7     direction of Pilica.  Brano had told us that the lieutenant-colonel had

 8     told him that we should come to a nearby cafe located in Pilica.  The

 9     cafe was right across the road from the cultural hall.

10        Q.   Can you describe the scene on your arrival at the cafe?

11        A.   Before leaving the farm we heard shots coming from the direction

12     of the village of Pilica.  As we got to the area where the cafe was and

13     our van stopped in front of it, I saw several persons lying on the

14     ground.  As far as I was able to see them, they were in civilian clothes.

15        Q.   Was there anyone else present outside the cultural centre?

16        A.   I suppose that the persons from Bratunac were, but between the

17     cafe and the cultural hall, there was a check-point on the

18     Zvornik-Bijeljina road, manned by, I believe, civilian and military

19     police.

20        Q.   And where you saw the civilians lying on the ground, can you

21     describe the exact location where you saw them?

22        A.   They were in front of the hall.  Not right in front of it.  I

23     can't explain it to you.  If you show me a picture, then I'll be able to.

24             MS. McKENNA:  Could we have 65 ter number 340, please.

25        Q.   Is this a photograph of the location that you are describing?

Page 7978

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And can you mark on this photograph the location of the cafe that

 3     you've mentioned with a C.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Can you mark the location of the building opposite it that you've

 6     described, this cultural centre, with an X.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And can mark with a B, the location where you saw the bodies that

 9     you've described.

10        A.   [Marks]

11             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you.  May I tender this photograph as an

12     exhibit.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could he show us the check-point before we do

14     that.

15             MS. McKENNA:

16        Q.   Could you mark on this photo the location of the check-point,

17     Mr. Erdemovic.

18        A.   A letter P, would that be fine?

19        Q.   That's absolutely fine.

20        A.   [Marks]

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  The picture is admitted into evidence.

22     May it please be given an exhibit number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2529.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MS. McKENNA:

Page 7979

 1        Q.   What did you do on your arrival at the cafe?

 2        A.   Our vehicle stopped in front of the cafe.  We got in and found

 3     the lieutenant-colonel and the two military policemen there.

 4             As you get into the cafe, as far as I remember, on the right-hand

 5     side there is a separate room where the lieutenant-colonel and the two

 6     military policemen were.  Members of my unit got in that room, whereas I

 7     with several of my colleagues stayed in the first room, the one that you

 8     get into as soon as you pass the front door of the cafe.  We sat at a

 9     table there.

10        Q.   And what did you do?

11        A.   Nothing.  We sat there.  Certain members of my unit and the

12     lieutenant-colonel had rakija, the brandy, whereas I and two others who

13     were members of my unit had a cup of coffee.

14        Q.   How long did you stay in the cafe?

15        A.   Not long.  I can't tell you exactly, but it wasn't long.

16        Q.   Can you recall any of the conversation that took place there?

17        A.   I don't recall precisely, but they talked about the events of the

18     day, about Srebrenica.  It was mostly the lieutenant-colonel who spoke,

19     and I recall him saying at the end who survives will survive and.  I

20     don't really know what he meant by that.

21        Q.   When you refer to the end, do you mean -- let me go back.  What

22     could you hear in the cafe?

23        A.   One could hear gun-fire from the direction of the cultural hall.

24     One could also hear the sound of hand-grenades exploding.

25        Q.   And for how long did this last?

Page 7980

 1        A.   I can't tell you exactly for how long.  As I said, not for long.

 2        Q.   What did you do once this was over?

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry, I'm perhaps a bit confused.  Once what

 4     was over, having the coffee?  I don't know where we are.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam McKenna.

 6             MS. McKENNA:

 7        Q.   You've testified that the sounds that you heard did not last very

 8     long.  What happened when these sounds had finished?

 9        A.   Do you mean gun-fire and that?  Brano Gojkovic said that we

10     should get in the car.  Or rather, sorry, the persons from Bratunac came,

11     and as soon as they got in, Brano Gojkovic said that we should get in our

12     vehicle and head back to Vlasenica.

13        Q.   As far as you could tell by whom were the killings in the Pilica

14     dome committed?

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, at this point I'm going to object unless

16     we're talking about personal knowledge.

17             MS. McKENNA:

18        Q.   On the basis of your personal knowledge, do you know by whom the

19     killings in the Pilica cultural centre were committed?

20        A.   As I've already said, it was the individuals from Bratunac.

21     Several members of my unit including myself refused and none of us went

22     to that building.  It was the members who were there from Bratunac who

23     went there.

24        Q.   Did you head back to Vlasenica in accordance with

25     Brano Gojkovic's order?

Page 7981

 1        A.   Yes.  All the members of my unit got into their cars, and we

 2     headed to Vlasenica.

 3        Q.   Shortly after these events, were you injured?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   What happened to you?

 6        A.   A person from my unit who participated in the execution at the

 7     Branjevo farm shot at me and two other members of my unit.

 8        Q.   What was that person's name?

 9        A.   Stanko Savanovic.

10        Q.   And where did this take place?

11        A.   In Bijeljina.

12        Q.   When, to the best of your recollection, did it take place?

13        A.   One week following the 16th of July.

14        Q.   Where were you treated for this injury?

15        A.   I was in Bijeljina and was then transferred to Belgrade to the

16     VMA because the operation performed in Bijeljina was not successful.

17        Q.   What is the VMA?

18        A.   That's the military medical academy in Belgrade.

19        Q.   And how long did you stay there?

20        A.   A month and odd days.  I can't remember exactly.

21        Q.   Can you explain how you as a VRS soldier came to be treated in a

22     military hospital in Belgrade?

23        A.   I think this was because the hospital in Bijeljina did not have

24     the necessary wherewithal to carry out complex surgeries, and that's why

25     members of the VRS who were seriously wounded went there.

Page 7982

 1        Q.   Did you encounter other VRS soldiers while you were there?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And did you encounter soldiers from any other armies, other than

 4     the VJ?

 5        A.   Yes.  As I've already said, there were other members of the Army

 6     of Republika Srpska there.

 7        Q.   Were those soldiers also being treated?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   What did you do once you had recovered?

10        A.   I returned to Bijeljina.

11        Q.   I'd like to move forward now to the events leading to your arrest

12     and subsequent transfer to The Hague.  Did you discuss the events of

13     July 1995 with journalists?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   With whom did you discuss them?

16        A.   I talked to a lady journalist from ABC.  Her name is Vanessa.

17        Q.   And did you speak to anyone other than her?

18        A.   Yes.  There was an individual from France.

19        Q.   What happened after you had spoken to the journalists?

20        A.   Kremenovic and I were arrested by the MUP of Serbia.

21        Q.   Let me clarify.  Can you recall when you spoke to the French

22     journalist?

23        A.   I think it was in early 1996.

24        Q.   And who is Kremenovic?

25        A.   Kremenovic was the deputy commander of our unit who was also

Page 7983

 1     wounded on the same day when the member of our unit shot at me,

 2     Kremenovic, and another person.  He was our deputy commander but had been

 3     discharged from the unit for having opposed the decisions made by the

 4     commander of our unit on several occasions.

 5        Q.   And when were you both -- or when were you arrested by the MUP of

 6     Serbia?

 7        A.   Shortly after my discussions with the journalists.  I think it

 8     was also in early 1996.

 9        Q.   What happened to you next?

10        A.   We were interrogated by the MUP of Serbia and by the state

11     security of Serbia.  And now I can speak for myself, I don't know about

12     Kremenovic, we were before a court in Novi Sad, and I was then

13     transferred to Belgrade to a house, which was a protected house.  I can't

14     tell you exactly where it was.  A safe house.

15        Q.   Were you in custody in this house?

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Objection.  Relevance.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam McKenna.

18             MS. McKENNA:  I am -- the witness is describing the events

19     leading to his transfer to The Hague and will be giving evidence as to

20     the publicity of those events.  Excuse me.  Which evidence is directly

21     relevant to notice of the acts of --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Quite apart from relevance which I don't see the

23     basis of here, it looks like you are testifying.  On that basis I would

24     rule that question out of order.  Not based on relevance.

25             MS. McKENNA:

Page 7984

 1        Q.   After your arrest in Serbia, did you remain in Serbia?

 2        A.   Yes.  I remained in Serbia for a month or two.  I'm not sure.

 3        Q.   What happened to you then?

 4        A.   I was transferred to the UN Detention Unit in The Hague.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In Serbia for the month or two, where were you

 6     staying?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was arrested, but I was not in

 8     detention in a normal detention facility.  I was in a house which was

 9     located, I believe, in the Dedinje neighbourhood in of Belgrade, but I

10     can't confirm that.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And who were you with in that house?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were members of the MUP of

13     Serbia, I believe.  However, they did not wear uniforms.  They were in

14     civilian clothes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you move in and out of that house freely?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what were these MUP of Serbia doing there at

18     the house?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think they were guarding the

20     house and holding me in detention.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             Madam McKenna.

23             MS. McKENNA:

24        Q.   Were -- the fact that you were arrested and transferred to

25     The Hague, was that publicised in Serbia?

Page 7985

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. McKENNA:  Could I have 65 ter number 8742, please.

 3        Q.   Have you seen this document before?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Could I direct your attention to the bottom of the B/C/S page.

 6     If we could scroll down.  And the left-hand corner.  What is this

 7     document?

 8        A.   This is a newspaper article from "Vreme International."

 9        Q.   What is date of the article?

10        A.   The 16th of March, 1996.

11        Q.   And to what does the article relate?

12        A.   It relates to my arrest.  The article speaks of my testimony of

13     the events in Srebrenica.

14        Q.   Does the article refer to any other members of the 10th Sabotage

15     Detachment?

16        A.   Yes, it mentions Radislav Kremenovic.

17        Q.   Let me direct your attention to page 2 of the article in the

18     B/C/S, and which would be pages 4 to 5 -- page 4 of the English version.

19     And I'm interested in the text at the top of the English.  If you could

20     scroll up in the English.

21        A.   Yes.  Colonel Petar Salapura is mentioned; Brano Gojkovic, who

22     had been at that farm; and Pelemis, the commander of our unit is

23     mentioned.

24        Q.   Where was Vreme published?

25        A.   In Serbia, I think.  I'm not sure.

Page 7986

 1             MS. McKENNA:  May I tender this document as an exhibit.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 3     please be given an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2530.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, if I may have a moment to confer with

 7     my colleague.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may.

 9                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

10             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Mr. Erdemovic.

11             Your Honour, that concludes my direct examination.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam McKenna.

13             Mr. Guy-Smith.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

15        Q.   From 1990 to 1992 I believe you served in the JNA; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   After you completed your service in the JNA, you then joined the

18     ABiH; true?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   When you were in the ABiH you were in the ABiH, as I understand

21     it, a for relatively short period of time, for approximately three

22     months, working in the military police; correct?

23        A.   No.  I did not work for the military police in the Army of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, but later in October 1992, I joined the military

25     police of the HVO, the Croatian Defence Council.

Page 7987

 1        Q.   When you were working in the army of the ABiH, what were your

 2     duties?  Were you in a special unit at that time?

 3        A.   No, I was in reconnaissance mortar unit.

 4        Q.   You became dissatisfied with the ABiH, left, and then joined the

 5     HVO; correct?

 6        A.   No.  It's not that I was dissatisfied in the BH Army; I just did

 7     not wish any longer to participate in combat.  And when the opportunity

 8     arose to serve with the military police that secured the command and

 9     check-points of the HVO, I took it to avoid combat.

10        Q.   I see.  That particular position lasted, once again, if I'm not

11     mistaken for a relatively short period of time because you were moving

12     Serb civilians across the border in violation of your duties; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Were you paid for that?  For moving those civilians?  Did you get

15     money?

16        A.   [No interpretation]

17        Q.   After you left the HVO, the next time that you were employed, you

18     are employed in the special unit of the Army of the Republika Srpska;

19     right?  That was in 1993?

20        A.   No, that was not in 1993.  I joined that unit in April 1994.

21        Q.   When you joined that unit in April 1994 --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam McKenna.

23             MS. McKENNA:  Apologies for interrupting.  I just note that the

24     transcript at page 58, line 4, the witness's answer was not interpreted.

25     Page 58, line 8.

Page 7988

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, you were asked the question, Were you paid

 2     for that, for moving those civilians, did you get money?  Apparently your

 3     answer was not heard.  Would you like to answer that question again?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 8        Q.   And your answer no is, no, I was not paid; right?

 9        A.   Right.

10        Q.   The special unit that you joined in April of 1994, that special

11     unit had the purpose of going behind enemy lines; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You were trained in that special unit to engage in sabotage;

14     true?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Sabotage included bombing recognised military targets behind

17     enemy lines; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   General disruption of military order behind military lines;

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes, and gathering intelligence.

22        Q.   Thank you, I was going to ask you about gathering intelligence.

23             And in addition, another function of such a unit was to engage in

24     liquidation and assassinations of military personnel; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7989

 1        Q.   During the period of time that you were working in the special

 2     unit, did you have occasion to go into the safe area of Srebrenica for

 3     the purpose of liquidating Naser Oric?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   How many times?

 6        A.   Twice, I think.

 7        Q.   Apart from that particular mission, were you involved in any

 8     other missions behind enemy lines where your purpose was to kill specific

 9     military leaders of the Bosnian army?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   How many times?

12        A.   Once.

13        Q.   Who were you attempting to kill, or who were you successful in

14     killing that time?

15        A.   I cannot recall the name, but we did not carry out that mission

16     because that would have put at risk the local civilian population.

17        Q.   I take it that in order to perform these functions in the special

18     operations unit, that you received special training in close combat and

19     in other forms of, what I'd call sabotage.  By close combat, I mean what

20     I believe you call wet work, the use of a knife?  You assassinate or kill

21     somebody with a knife; right?

22        A.   In the missions that I participated in, no weapons were supposed

23     to be used.  The no knives and no hand-to-hand combat was involved.  We

24     were supposed to set explosives on both sides of the road, and as the

25     vehicle passed we were supposed to detonate it.

Page 7990

 1        Q.   So you were supposed to set an ambush by way of explosive for

 2     your missions?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You were trained, however, in the use of weapons for close combat

 5     in your capacity as a member of the special operations unit; right?

 6        A.   Yes, but let me clarify.  In every instance we went into

 7     action --

 8        Q.   There's nothing to clarify.  I'm asking you about training at

 9     this point.

10             Now, for purposes of our discussion when you were involved in

11     these special operations before October of 1994, were you paid extra

12     money for engaging these operations?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, would it be fair to say that a normal soldier would be paid

15     somewhere between 3 and 4 dinar or Deutschemarks in your unit, whereas

16     when you went on one of these missions, you could be paid up to

17     1.000 Deutschemarks for your efforts?

18        A.   No, I never received 1.000 Deutschemark.

19        Q.   Did you receive a sum of money substantially greater than that

20     which you would normally receive as your salary?

21        A.   Yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you saying, sir, that 3 or 4 Deutschemarks

23     were their salary, Mr. Guy-Smith?

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'll ask the question.

25        Q.   Did you generally receive 3 to 4 Deutschemarks as your salary per

Page 7991

 1     month?

 2        A.   I cannot recall exactly the amount in Deutschemark.  I remember I

 3     received my salary in dinars.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Could you tell us approximately how many dinars you

 5     received a month?

 6        A.   I cannot remember that.

 7        Q.   When you went on one of these missions and you received a sum

 8     which is substantially greater, could you tell us how much greater that

 9     salary was?  Was it a factor of 10, 20, 50?

10        A.   I would not like to speculate, but it was higher than the regular

11     salary.

12        Q.   Now, as I understand your testimony correctly, there came a time

13     when the commander of the special unit changed and the name of the

14     special unit changed in October of 1994; true?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Then the commander who you were most often dealing with was an

17     individual by the name, I think, of Pelemis; correct?  As the commander.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And as you've told us, Kremenovic was below him; right?

20        A.   Yes, Kremenovic was his deputy.

21        Q.   And the unit changed its name from being a special unit to the

22     10th Sabotage Unit; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, when your commander changed and your name changed, did your

25     function change?  By that I mean did you expand, or for that matter,

Page 7992

 1     detract from your job in going behind enemy lines for the purposes of

 2     disruptions and assassinations?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   And if I'm not mistaken, when you were involved in the initial

 5     special purpose unit?  That was, I'll call it a multi-ethnic unit; right?

 6        A.   Both units, the first and the second, were multi-ethnic.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  With regard to the issue of the kinds of uniforms

 8     that you wore when you were in the special unit, you had available to you

 9     black uniforms, camouflage uniforms, and also uniforms of your opposing

10     army; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And obviously in order for you to be effective in your missions,

13     you had to engage in stealth so you wouldn't get caught; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And the purpose for having this uniform was for the purpose of

16     deception, to deceive and to trick so that if you happened to be in enemy

17     territory and you were seen by the enemy, you had a way of passing

18     through without getting caught; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, when Pelemis came onto the scene, one of the things that

21     changed was that Pelemis was interested in making money, finding ways of

22     maximizing his pocket-book; correct?

23        A.   Something like that.

24        Q.   Well, when you say something like that, are you in agreement with

25     me that what Pelemis -- Pelemis's arrival began to create, in your mind

Page 7993

 1     at least, difficulties in terms of what the unit was doing?  Let me put

 2     it to you another way.  Pelemis was pushing you into becoming a rogue

 3     unit.

 4        A.   Let me explain how I see Pelemis.  I think Pelemis was only

 5     concerned with himself, and he was also a great nationalist.

 6        Q.   I appreciate that, but I want to focus in on this issue of money

 7     with Pelemis because as a matter of fact, I think as we both know there

 8     was a time when there was a discussion about Pelemis directly in search

 9     of or attending the receipt of somewhat in the neighbourhood of 12 kilos

10     of gold; right?

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12        Q.   And that was in direct relation to one of these operations;

13     right?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam McKenna.

15             MS. McKENNA:  I'm going to object on grounds of relevance.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If in fact there was an order and the order was

18     for a purpose other than that which is asserted by Prosecution but,

19     rather, for the purpose of making money, then it would not fit within the

20     definition of the crimes charged.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Guy-Smith turn the microphone towards

22     himself, please.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, I can.  And obviously if Pelemis is running

24     a rogue unit and he is killing people for money, that's something

25     different.

Page 7994

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you happy, ma'am?

 2             MS. McKENNA:  The objection remains.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Overruled.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 5        Q.   I don't know if you have my question in mind after we went back

 6     and forth so I'll ask you again.  Which is that Pelemis, it's your

 7     understanding that Pelemis was looking forward to receiving some 12 kilos

 8     of gold in relation to one of the missions that you were on; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, Pelemis, as I heard, I don't know this exactly, was supposed

10     to get that gold.

11        Q.   When was he supposed to get that gold?  After the 16th of July?

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What year are we talking about?

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  1995.

15        Q.   Now, you've told us that, if I'm not mistaken, that Savanovic who

16     was -- if I'm to use, I'm not sure if it was your words or someone else.

17     Savanovic was a drunk; right?

18        A.   Savanovic, no, I was talking about General Zivanovic.  Not

19     Savanovic.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now we are talking about the same gentleman.

21     Zivanovic was a drunk; right?

22        A.   I don't know that.  I met him on that day, the 11th of July.

23     That was the first time and the last time I saw him.  Another person from

24     my unit, a native of Vlasenica who had known this general for a long time

25     told me that he was an alcoholic.

Page 7995

 1        Q.   The day that you saw him was the day that he was drinking out of

 2     a jerry-can; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And when you say he was drinking out of a jerry-can, what size of

 5     a jerry-can was that?  The reason I'm asking the question is because I'm

 6     envisioning something that is used for gasoline.  I'm curious as to

 7     whether or not I'm accurate or inaccurate in that regard.

 8        A.   I cannot recall exactly whether it was 2 or 3 or 5 litres, but it

 9     was a jerry-can.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was it full?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.  I wasn't

12     looking carefully to see whether it was full or not.  I can't say.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:

14        Q.   We've seen some video here with various people meeting

15     General Mladic.  Did you have a chance to meet General Mladic on that

16     day?  Did you shake his hand?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have -- trying to find the page.

20        Q.   Let me ask it this way:  You recall the picture with the

21     gentleman when you were discussing the identification with the red

22     ribbon, who was wearing a black uniform, who was talking to

23     General Mladic; do you recall that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Could you tell us who that individual is.

Page 7996

 1        A.   Velimir Popovic.

 2        Q.   Okay.  When the unit left in November/December of 1994, you were

 3     not with them when they went to train; correct?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   And when you say no, that no means because it becomes a double

 6     negative, unfortunately that means, yes, you were not with them; right?

 7     You stayed at base.

 8        A.   Yes, I stayed at the base in Bijeljina.

 9        Q.   And during the time that you were on the base in Bijeljina, were

10     you involved in any missions during that period of time?  And by missions

11     I mean, once again, missions that go behind enemy lines for the purposes

12     of disruption and assassination or otherwise destroying military

13     ammunition, equipment of the BiH.

14        A.   Not that I can remember.

15        Q.   And when you were back at base in Bijeljina, you were one of the

16     people who helped train, were you not?  You helped train the unit?

17        A.   What do you mean when I returned to Bijeljina?

18        Q.   When you were -- I think it was translated differently from the

19     way I meant the question.  When you were in Bijeljina you were one of the

20     people of the unit who trained the other soldiers, weren't you?  You

21     trained them in some of these operations, some of these techniques;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You have --

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We better go into private session.

Page 7997

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

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Page 7998











11 Pages 7998-7999 redacted. Private session.















Page 8000

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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

Page 8001

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   The third person who you said, the third person who you said was

 5     shot that evening who was a member of the Bijeljina Platoon, you said he

 6     was Muslim; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   He was one of your fellow soldiers; right?  You worked with him.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You went on missions behind enemy lines with him.

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

14             Madam McKenna?

15             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, if I may have a moment to consult.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, you may.

17                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

18             MS. McKENNA:  Apologies for the delay, Your Honour.  We have --

19     we will have some brief questions on re-direct.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How brief is brief?

21             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, it may be best to -- it may be better

22     to carry on tomorrow.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Sir, unfortunately we can't finish with

24     your testimony today, so you'll have to come back tomorrow at 9.00 in the

25     morning again.  Same courtroom, okay.  And I would imagine the witness

Page 8002

 1     must come out of the the court while we are in private session.

 2             Before you leave I just want to warn you, sir, that until you are

 3     finished testifying, you may not now discuss this case with anybody while

 4     you were in the break.  In other words, the next time you are going to

 5     talk about the case is when you come back to the stand tomorrow morning.

 6     Thank you very much.  You are excused until tomorrow morning.  We'll see

 7     you tomorrow morning at 9.00.

 8             May the Chamber please move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  The matter is adjourned to tomorrow,

18     9.00 in the morning, courtroom II.

19             Court adjourned.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.

21                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of July,

22                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.