1 Monday, 13 July, 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to -- I beg your pardon. Good
6 afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom. I guess we got to say
7 good morning to the people in New York. Where are they? Can we see
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to you, Mr. Sacirbey, and to
11 everybody else in New York
12 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Good morning.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you hear me?
14 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, we can, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are all looking at me like they can't hear
17 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, we can, Your Honour. Yes, I
18 can. Can you hear us? We are speaking back. We can hear you. We can
19 hear you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Good afternoon to you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Good afternoon, Your Honour. Can
22 you hear us, though?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can now hear you. Thank you so much.
24 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
1 everybody in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
2 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, could we have appearances for
4 the day, starting with Prosecution, please.
5 MS. BOLTON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. It's Barney Thomas,
6 Lorna Bolton, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. For the Defence,
8 Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good afternoon to all. Milos Androvic,
10 Daniela Tasic, Chad
11 I'm Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of Mr. Perisic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith. We go through
13 the ritual, Mr. Sacirbey, just to remind you that you are still bound by
14 the declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the
15 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.
16 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour. I
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. If we could please have 65 ter 6076
20 up on the screen which will be tab number 80, Mr. Registrar.
21 WITNESS: MUHAMED SACIRBEY [Resumed]
22 [Witness testified via videolink]
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith: [Continued]
24 Q. Mr. Sacirbey, I note that your lawyer is not in attendance, and I
25 therefore will not be asking you any questions which I believe could
1 potentially impact upon those issues for which your lawyer is to be with
2 you. But could you tell me, please, if you know when your lawyer might
3 be appearing.
4 A. Yes, thank you for that. He is coming in just the next
5 15 minutes. He is coming from out of town.
6 Q. Thank you so much. You previously had an opportunity to look at
7 the first seven pages of this particular document that's 65 ter 6076,
8 which were introduced into evidence and have become P2485. What I would
9 like you to do, if you could, please, sir, is take a look at the balance
10 of the documents that are contained within tab 80. And I think it might
11 be more fruitful for you to take a look at them collectively before I ask
12 you any questions.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is this tab 80 what we see on the screen here,
14 Mr. Guy-Smith?
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Just a minute, Your Honour, I'll let you know.
16 Yes, it is. And I don't know if you are getting static, I am. Quite a
17 bit, as a matter of fact. I don't know whether or not the Chamber is
18 experiencing the same thing as I am, it sounds like it's raining rather
19 hard. It sounds like a Hague storm. That occurred as a result of me
20 turning off my microphone.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Please turn your microphone off again then.
22 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Mr. Guy-Smith, I think I've reviewed
23 the written material rather quickly. There is, of course, numerous
24 supporting material with charts.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH:
1 Q. Exactly. And with regard to that material, is this material that
2 you've had an opportunity to see before today?
3 A. Again, I believe I've had the opportunity to see the contents, if
4 not necessarily this exact draft. At least some of the contents.
5 Q. And when you say you've had an opportunity to see some of the
6 contents, I take it that, for example, if I were to refer you to those
7 pages that deal with the individual trace analysis report, that is what
8 you are referring to with regard to having had an opportunity to --
9 A. We can't hear you now, Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 Q. I'm going to try something to see if this works or not.
11 Can you hear me now? Mr. Sacirbey, can you hear me now?
12 A. Completely gone.
13 Q. Can you hear me now, Mr. Sacirbey?
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: All right. I won't do any more of the Verizon
15 commercial again today.
16 Could I please get the assistance -- could I please have some
17 technical assistance, so I'm able to have a conversation with
18 Mr. Sacirbey.
19 Q. Can you hear me now, Mr. Sacirbey?
20 A. Yes, I can.
21 Q. Good, let's see how this works. I'd like you to take a look at
22 what would be in e-court page number 34 of 73. For your purposes it will
23 be, if you look at the bottom of the pages, it would be 0172-1402, which
24 is Appendix 2 to Annex F, ICF inquiry dated 5 May 1995, trace serial
25 number 2.
1 A. The date was 5 May, 1995
2 Q. That's correct, Mr. Sacirbey.
3 A. Yes, I have it in front of me.
4 Q. Okay. With regard to the assessment of the trace, you'll note
5 that there it says that the assessment of the trace is unexplained;
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. And with regard to the lion's share of the appendices that
9 support the seven-page conclusion that you discussed previously with
10 Ms. Bolton, would it be fair to say, and I'm trying to do this rapidly,
11 that the lion's share of them indicate that the trace -- the assessment
12 of the trace is unexplained, that in those incidents that were
13 scientifically examined by the commission, the issue of border crossing
14 through scientific determination was unexplained?
15 A. I can certainly see there's several of those explanations. I
16 cannot make a quick assessment as to what is the dominant assessment of
17 the trace. I see several different explanations. But certainly
18 unexplained is on more than one and quite a few in fact.
19 Q. And with regard -- and I thank you for that answer. And with
20 regard to another explanation that's given with regard to the issue of
21 assessment of trace, there is the following determination. For example,
22 if we could go to page 48 of the same document in e-court, which will be
23 0172-1416. It's trace serial number 15. The assessment of the trace
24 there is "insufficient data for analysis;" correct?
25 A. Yes, there's at least one such that I'm looking at.
1 Q. If you were to look at the next page, which would be page 49
2 which is trace serial number 16, you see the same entry, do you not, sir?
3 A. I'm trying to make sure I get to the right page.
4 Q. 0172-1417.
5 A. Okay. I am ahead of myself then. Yes.
6 Q. Would you be willing to accept that between the entries of
7 unexplained and insufficient data for analysis that covers the lion's
8 share of those documents that you have just reviewed, with regard to the
9 question --
10 A. That seems like a --
11 Q. With regard to the question of unexplained border crossings?
12 A. Along with insufficient data for further analysis, that seems to
13 be by far the lion's share.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would move the admission of the remainder of
16 this particular exhibit which was previously given the number of P2485 as
17 Defendant's next in order, or it may make more sense to just make this
18 one entire exhibit. I don't know what works best for the Chamber or for
19 the Registry.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It looks like what is best for the process is for
21 them to be made one big exhibit, part of 2485.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. Could we please have P201 up as the
23 next document I'd like to discuss with you, sir.
24 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Can we have the tab number,
25 Mr. Guy-Smith.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: This is Prosecution tab, this is Resolution 752,
2 and I'll get it for you in second. I believe, if I'm not mistaken, it's
3 tab number 6 in the first Prosecution binder. In the 1992 -- in the 1992
4 Prosecution binder.
5 Q. And if I could direct you to paragraph 4 of that document.
6 A. Are we speaking of a UN resolution?
7 Q. We are. We are speaking of Resolution --
8 A. Resolution 752?
9 Q. Correct.
10 A. Okay. Yes, I have that.
11 Q. Excellent. As I understand your testimony, it is your position
12 that at the time the JNA withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was
13 incumbent upon them to do one of two things under this resolution;
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. And it's your position that the resolution required that they
17 either turn the arms over to the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina as one
18 solution; correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Or they deliver the arms that were to be left, if at all, to the
21 international community; true?
22 A. That's correct. I would say there's obviously a third element
23 here which is to actually take the weapons out of the country along with
24 the troops.
25 Q. Thank you. I wanted to clarify that because I had not heard you
1 give that particular response when you were testifying on direct with
2 regard to this matter. That there was a third potential opportunity.
3 Now, the thing that you are -- if I understand, the matter that you were
4 objecting to was the JNA leaving the territory. By any chance could you
5 tell us when that was, when the JNA actually left?
6 A. Well, as I think you know my testimony, I do not believe that
7 they left.
8 Q. Okay. With regard --
9 A. I believe --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: This is impossible to work
12 MR. GUY-SMITH:
13 Q. Your opinion is that all that happened was there was a transfer
14 -- I'm sorry, I'm being told I need to do something.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Guy-Smith, the interpreters are
16 complaining that it's --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Interpreter, what is impossible to work with?
19 THE INTERPRETER: There was too much noise for us to hear either
20 the witness or Mr. Guy-Smith. Thank you.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I'm speaking at this point, can all the
22 interpreters hear me? Yes? I'm okay all the way around? Thank you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I seem to hear you directly, Mr. Guy-Smith, and
24 not via the earphones.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Let me try here. Do you hear me through your
1 earphones, or do you hear me directly, Your Honour?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ask again.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Do you hear me here, or do you hear me directly?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Doesn't seem to be a difference.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. Well, I don't know exactly whether or not
6 the matter is being recorded or not recorded. I don't know how to best
7 to proceed, because I don't know what the technical issues are as to
8 whether or not -- if everybody can hear me, and Mr. Sacirbey can hear me,
9 I am assuming we have at least a written record of these proceedings. I
10 don't know whether we have an oral record of these proceedings.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe proceed, and if everybody else hears you,
12 then I'll see how to go through.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH:
14 Q. If I understand your testimony correctly, one, you believe that
15 there was never a withdrawal of the JNA; correct?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Could you tell us if you have any awareness of the killing of the
18 young soldiers leaving the Marshal Tito Barracks in June of 1992 --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
20 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt my friend's
21 question, but certainly at this point what we have heard of it, I will be
22 having a relevance objection to.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, there is testimony -- well, I'll wait.
24 We've previously heard testimony from at least one witness with regard to
25 the withdrawal of the JNA at or about June 5th, it may been before
1 Ms. Bolton's entry into the case, in which there was, and I use the word
2 killing as opposed to massacre, which is the word that had been used
3 previously. The massacre of some young soldiers who were leaving the
4 Marshal Tito Barracks pursuant to the agreement that the JNA was to
5 withdraw from the region. And my question is whether or not he has any
6 awareness of that particular matter and whether or not that would impact
7 at all with regard to his opinion concerning the withdrawal of the JNA.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
9 MS. BOLTON: I don't know what evidence my friend is referring
10 to. It may have predated my time. I, again, am not clear on what the
11 relevance is to -- of the massacre of the young soldiers to these
12 proceedings. I am in Your Honours' hands.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you don't make any objection then Your Honour
14 doesn't have you in his hands.
15 MS. BOLTON: I continue to object on the basis of relevancy,
16 Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. Do you have my question in mind, Mr. Sacirbey?
20 A. Yes, I do. I believe you mentioned a date and you mentioned the
21 phrase massacre. I am generally aware of the events. I am not sure that
22 either the date or the reference to massacre is accurate.
23 Q. Well, I had initially --
24 A. Mr. Guy-Smith, that's been -- I'm --
25 Q. I had initially used the word -- excuse me, Mr. Sacirbey.
1 A. I just want to also highlight to the Court --
2 Q. Excuse me Mr. Sacirbey. There's no question pending. I
3 initially used the word killing, and my question is are you, based upon
4 the answer you've just given, aware of an incident involving young JNA
5 soldiers departing from the Marshal Tito Barracks in the month of June as
6 a result of the agreement that the JNA would withdraw from the area and
7 during the time that they withdrew they were killed? Yes or no?
8 A. I am aware -- I am aware of JNA units withdrawing from the
9 Marshal Tito Barracks in Sarajevo
10 you are highlighting here.
11 Q. And by that you question the month of June?
12 A. I believe so. And I'm also -- I'm influenced by recent events
13 where Serbia
14 involved with that particular incident. So I'm obviously influenced by
15 the discussion of that in the media.
16 Q. Okay. And that is a recent influence that you have then?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. That's been ongoing for about a month, month and a half now.
20 Q. Now, you've answered most of my question, but you have not
21 answered the issue of whether or not you were aware of these young
22 soldiers being killed or not in the process of withdrawing.
23 A. First of all you characterise young soldiers, I am aware that in
24 fact there were battles involved; that is correct.
25 Q. So it's your testimony as you sit here that there were battles
1 that occurred during the time that these soldiers were withdrawing from
2 the Marshal Tito Barracks; right?
3 A. It is my testimony that when they were leaving Sarajevo, this
4 occurred; that is correct.
5 Q. Not my question, sir. You used the word "battles." Because you
6 used the word battles, we need to have an understanding about that. Is
7 it your testimony that there were battles that occurred during the time
8 that these soldiers were withdrawing from the Marshal Tito Barracks, yes
9 or no?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 I'm asking you to now go back into your memory as opposed to
13 dealing with those things that may have influenced you in the recent
14 press. Do you recall that there was an agreement between the president
15 of Bosnia
16 concerning the withdrawal of JNA troops from Sarajevo and specifically
17 from the Marshal Tito Barracks?
18 A. I am aware of that, yes.
19 Q. And is it your testimony that subsequent to this agreement whilst
20 these troops were withdrawing, that's when these battles occurred?
21 A. I'm not exactly sure of the time-frame, but I knew in fact that
22 there was fighting involved.
23 Q. Well, when you say you knew there was fighting involved, are you
24 attributing the battles to this particular incident, Mr. Sacirbey?
25 A. Yes, I am. And most of my knowledge was obtained over subsequent
2 Q. When you say most of your knowledge was obtained over subsequent
3 time-frame, from whence did you obtain that knowledge? Was it obtained
4 from your president, from your military commanders or from the press?
5 A. Actually, much of it was also obtained from UN officials.
6 Q. With regard to your president, did you obtain the information
7 from your president with regard to the issue of these battles that you
8 have alleged occurred?
9 A. A limited -- limited.
10 Q. When you say limited, what do you mean by that, sir?
11 A. My most extensive knowledge of this issue came up during a visit
12 to Zagreb, Croatia
13 Srebrenica with the UN delegation. I spoke with then the UN military and
14 the UN head civilian commander and this matter came up.
15 Q. When you say you spoke with the UN military and UN civil head
16 commander, who did you speak with?
17 A. General Nambiar in part, and also the civilian commander and his
18 name always escapes me, but he was replaced by Mr. Akashi subsequent to
19 that time-frame.
20 Q. Is it my understanding it's your testimony that you received the
21 information from these two individuals with regard to the issue of their
22 being battles that occurred at the time that these soldiers were
23 withdrawing pursuant to the agreement that existed between your president
24 and Zivota Panic?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. We haven't covered the issue of your military. Did you receive
2 any information from your military with regard to that same issue?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. And with regard to the press. Did you receive information from
5 the press which characterised this situation? And by that I'm talking
6 about the same withdrawal as being a battle?
7 A. Most likely I did. But my greatest source of information and
8 influence is on the basis of those conversations in Zagreb in the spring
9 of 1993.
10 Q. How many conversations did you have?
11 A. It was at least one conversation, and I remember it was a
12 UN headquarters. It probably lasted for half an hour to an hour because
13 it related to other events around that time-frame.
14 Q. With regard to the issue concerning the weapons that were left
15 behind, you were aware of the fact that at that time there was a
16 contention that those weapons did not belong to Bosnia-Herzegovina as
17 you've asserted; correct?
18 A. That is correct. Mr. Guy-Smith, let me correct the Court, I do
19 remember that gentleman's name, it was Cedric Thornberry, who was the
20 chief UN civilian commander, the other individual I had those
21 conversations with.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey, we have frozen video now.
23 While we are waiting, for your information, Ms. Bolton, I'm going
24 to be going to the articles that I had sent over there which had come
25 from the green light report which had heretofore been illegible in the --
1 MS. BOLTON: Will they be tabbed?
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, there are a series of them, but most of
3 them are going to be from, I believe it's going to be tab 82. There will
4 be a series of them, and there will be another place where they are, I'll
5 get them to you as we go along. I can assure you they are all in
6 e-court. The first one will be, for purposes of everybody's edification,
7 65 ter 4564, which is an article dated August 23rd, 1992.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we connected?
9 Can you hear us, Mr. Sacirbey?
10 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I can, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 Mr. Guy-Smith.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
14 Q. Can you hear me, Mr. Sacirbey? Am I good with everybody?
15 A. Yes, I can.
16 Q. Yes, I'm good? Thank you.
17 You might recall that we, the last time we met, we were
18 discussing a series of newspaper articles which you candidly said, and I
19 understand why you could not read, they were illegible, they were part of
20 the Iran
21 A. I believe I recall that.
22 Q. Okay. I'd like to at this point in time go through a number of
23 those articles with you. The first one is 65 ter 4564. I'm sorry,
24 that's 1D03 65 ter 4564. I said it backwards I think.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: It doesn't have a P number?
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: It does not have a P number, no.
2 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, the screen is frozen again. We can
3 hear you just fine, but the screen is frozen.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, it looks like we are going to have to take a
5 break and see if the technicians can help us because we just can't go on
6 like that.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a short break. When we are
9 reconnected, you will be called. Thank you.
10 --- Break taken at 2.55 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 3.18 p.m.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Testing, testing, Mr. Sacirbey, can you hear us?
13 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I can, thank you.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
15 Mr. Guy-Smith.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you so much. If we could have 1D03-4564
17 available on screen and also available to Mr. Sacirbey, which I believe
18 is the first document in the packet that was delivered sometime a week or
19 so ago.
20 Q. Mr. Sacirbey, you've discussed with us that you read a number of
21 news periodicals. I take it one of the news periodicals you read, not
22 only privately but also in your capacity as the ambassador for
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina was the "New York Times," was it not?
24 A. Yes, it was.
25 Q. And this is one of the articles that was contained in the
1 document that we were discussing a couple of weeks ago, that being the
2 Senate subcommittee report concerning various arms being moved into,
3 among other places, Bosnia-Herzegovina, called the Iran green light
4 report. With regard to the first document in front of you, dated August
5 23rd, 1992, I'd like to know first of all whether or not you are familiar
6 with this newspaper article.
7 A. Yes, I am.
8 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the second page of the
9 article in which there is the following discussion. It says "Government
10 Admits Effort. Ejup Ganic vice-president of Bosnia and Herzegovina
11 acknowledged in an interview that his government is trying to raise money
12 in the Middle East for weapons purchases." Do you have that in front in
13 front of you?
14 A. Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith, I'm there.
15 Q. With regard to the statement made, is that something that was
16 discussed while you were at the United Nations building with some of your
17 colleagues concerning the violation of Resolution 713?
18 A. Again, you are speaking of violation of Resolution 713. We
19 certainly did discuss assistance to provide the necessary resources for
20 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to defends itself.
21 Q. Okay. I understand the euphemism you are using here, sir. What
22 I'm asking you is really very simple. I appreciate the fact that as far
23 as you were concerned, 713 did not apply to Bosnia-Herzegovina. You've
24 made that quite clear. What I'm now driving at and trying to understand
25 is whether or not there was a discussion with other members at the you
1 United Nations concerning the fact that the purchase of weapons would be
2 on its face a violation of Resolution 713, which would have been --
3 something would have been a concern to you as the ambassador of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina because you would have had to take a position on this
5 issue. So my question is with regard to the information contained in
6 this article, is that something that you discussed with your colleagues
7 at the United Nations, irrespective of your position with regard to
8 whether or not you had the right to purchase weapons or not?
9 A. To be very accurate, the issue of the purchase of weapons did not
10 come up. The issue of weapons or other necessary resources coming in to
11 defend Bosnia
12 Q. If you could turn to the bottom of that page where it says:
13 "Help from Arab Relief Groups."
14 "There are also persistent rumours that arms dealers from the
15 Middle East are at work on behalf of Bosnia and Herzegovina
16 military forces. General Armin Pohara?"
17 Do you know who that is, sir?
18 A. I know the name.
19 Q. He is not one of the individuals that you had contact with in
20 terms of what was going on, on the ground during your tenure as
21 ambassador; is that correct?
22 A. Not that I recall.
23 Q. Okay. "... confirmed that 180 mujahedeen from the Middle East
24 have joined the Bosnian ranks."
25 Do I take it that it was your position that not only were you
1 entitled to purchase arms in order to defends yourself, but you also were
2 entitled to have foreign nationals, by that I mean individuals from
3 outside of your country, come into your country in your defence?
4 A. The issue of foreign fighters did come up. And one can classify
5 them into two categories. One is mercenaries, the other one would be
6 so-called volunteers.
7 Q. And by volunteers you mean --
8 A. Frankly, we took the view at the UN mission --
9 Q. Go ahead.
10 A. We took the view at the UN mission that any foreign forces coming
11 to Bosnia
12 from the UN mission. As to their legality, I never took a position on
13 that point.
14 Q. With regard to -- with regard to the information that's contained
15 in this particular article, one with which you are familiar, did you have
16 conversation with your president or any military leaders back at home
17 concerning the fact that you were having foreign nationals fighting for
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Was that also a conversation that you had with some of your
23 colleagues at the United Nations?
24 A. Yes, it was.
25 Q. Is this also a matter that you had some concern about, and by
1 concern I mean when you had mentioned to us the other day that there was,
2 I believe, leakage in your government, that this kind of information is
3 the kind of information that would be of --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
5 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Your Honour, again, sorry, I'm not getting
6 any sound. Oops. Sorry to interrupt, again I'm not seeing the relevance
7 of this line of question to any of the issues that were raised during
8 either examination-in-chief, Your Honour, or the issues that are before
9 this Tribunal in terms of the Defence.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Notice. Common discussion between all that were
12 going -- common discussion between all during the period of time that the
13 issues that are germane to these proceedings were being discussed, the
14 resolutions, the violations of the resolutions, how they were being
15 interpreted, and general understanding of what information was available
16 upon which all --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Notice to?
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Notice to who?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: To our client.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Overruled.
23 Mr. Guy-Smith.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, could the Chamber kindly informed me as to
25 when we are going to stop because I'm happy to go as long as I can.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see. Can we just -- I'm not quite sure how much
2 longer we can still go on the tape, but may I suggest that you go on,
3 let's --
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Absolutely until somebody tells me to stop, very
6 Q. Do you have my last question in mind with regard to your concern
7 about leakage within the government?
8 A. Yes, I do, and actually, this is not a point of concern that I
9 had regarding leakage.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we please now have 1D03-4569. Which would
12 be, I believe, the next document. Once again this is a "New York Times"
13 article, dated September 10th, 1992. Iran
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, what should the fate of ID --
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Can I please have that admitted into evidence as
17 Defendant's next in order, please, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. ID03-4564 is admitted into evidence. May
19 it please be given an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be given
21 Exhibit D136. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH:
24 Q. Have you had a chance to look at the document, sir, the article?
25 A. Yes, I have. Yes, I have.
1 Q. Good. First of all, I'd like to understand something if I could.
2 Is it your position that arms being sent to Bosnia-Herzegovina could be
3 sent in any fashion whatsoever including as relief for humanitarian aid,
4 and that was legitimate?
5 A. Certainly if something was labelled as a humanitarian mission,
6 then we owed it, I think, to the institution that was providing the
7 humanitarian assistance to make sure that the humanitarian assistance did
8 in fact come through and not something else.
9 Q. Okay. So then I take it that by the answer you've given, you
10 would say that if in fact you -- by you I'm saying Bosnia-Herzegovina
11 were receiving arms under another guise, that that would be illegitimate;
13 A. Certainly one of the concerns that I had regarding the arms
14 embargo is that it could in fact corrupt a whole system of delivery.
15 Q. Well, as a matter of fact you know that it did corrupt the whole
16 system of delivery. And let's take a look at this article.
17 A. I've heard --
18 Q. In the first document:
19 "'Evidence of military support by an Islamic country to the
20 Muslim-dominated government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatian officials
21 have intercepted a planeload of Iranian arms and personnel,' western
22 officials said today."
23 Going to the second paragraph:
24 "Its ostensible mission was to deliver relief supplies for
25 overland delivery to Bosnia and Herzegovina. But when the plane was
1 inspected, Croatian officials discovered 4.000 guns, more than a million
2 rounds of ammunition, and 20 to 40 Iranians huddled in the back."
3 You would agree with me, sir, would you not, that those items are
4 not humanitarian or relief aid?
5 A. If the story is accurate, you are correct.
6 Q. Is this a story that you were aware of?
7 A. I was aware of the story, but I must say that I was never aware
8 of any Iranians that were fighting on the side of the government.
9 Q. Well, were you aware of some 20 to 40 Iranians huddled in the
10 back of a plane trying to sneak into Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. Certainly am not on that occasion.
12 Q. Continuing with the article:
13 "'While there have been unconfirmed reports that Islamic
14 countries have been providing military aid to Bosnian Muslims, the
15 seizure of the Iranian shipment represents the first tangible evidence,'
16 Bush Administration officials say."
17 You were discussing this issue of the arms embargo with
18 Bush Administration officials, were you not?
19 A. Yes, I was.
20 Q. You, as a matter of fact, discussed this very incident with him,
21 did you not?
22 A. Quite possibly, but I don't recall the discussion if that's what
23 you are referring to.
24 Q. Are you telling us that this particular discussion escapes your
25 memory at this time?
1 A. I don't recollect it specifically. One did take place.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I please have this moved into evidence
3 Defendant's next in order.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be given
7 Exhibit D137. Thank you.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: 1B03-4610 [sic], I believe this document -- this
10 is a publication from the "Los Angeles Times."
11 Q. Do you have that document in front of you, Mr. Sacirbey?
12 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Can we have the tab number,
13 Mr. Guy-Smith.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Surely. It's tab number 84. Sorry,
15 Mr. Registrar. That would be in the new batch.
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We've got it.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excellent.
18 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I have the document.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH:
20 Q. Is this a document that you are familiar with, this particular
21 publication, this particular article, I should say?
22 A. I'm not sure I'm familiar with the article, although of course
23 I'm familiar with the publication and the subject matter.
24 Q. With regard to the subject matter, referring your attention to
25 the second paragraph which says:
1 "The shipment was one of the most brazen efforts yet to
2 circumvent a year old UN arms embargo in the region. It has intensified
3 concern that Iran
4 war by giving new firepower to the Bosnian Muslims who are battling
5 Serbian forces for control of the former Yugoslav republic."
6 Now, is that a matter that was discussed between you and your
7 colleagues at the United Nations? And by that I'm talking about the
8 particular concern here, the shipment could fuel an already explosive
9 civil war?
10 A. Certainly again the issue of weapons shipment was discussed.
11 Q. And you were told, were you not, as it says, for example, in this
12 article, going down three paragraphs:
13 "'We don't need more weapons in Bosnia,' one US
14 'More arms are not going to help reduce the level of tension and violence
15 and bloodshed.'"
16 You were told that, were you not, by concerned individuals and
17 your colleagues at the United Nations?
18 A. Yes, certainly something of a similar sentiment.
19 Q. And when you say "certainly something of a similar sentiment," I
20 take it what you mean --
21 A. It's whole issue --
22 Q. I take it what you mean by that --
23 A. Please go ahead.
24 Q. I take it what you mean by that is that you were told in no
25 uncertain terms that more weapons would exacerbate the situation and that
1 your decision, and by that I mean Bosnia-Herzegovina's decision, to
2 obtain weapons outside of the embargo was inappropriate and ill-advised?
3 A. The words inappropriate and ill-advised depends on whose
4 perspective you were looking at. Bosnia
5 and in fact much of its population was already on the run, and
6 cosmopolitan areas were under siege.
7 Q. So your position was being a member state of the United Nations
8 at that point in time that you would interpret 713 in a manner that you
9 deemed most appropriate for what you believed to be the benefit of your
10 country; correct?
11 A. We were under aggression; there was genocide; and there were
12 already weapons in Bosnia
13 Q. Mr. Sacirbey, Mr. Sacirbey, Mr. Sacirbey, please listen to my
15 Your position was being a member state of the United Nations at
16 that point in time that you would interpret 713 in a manner that you
17 deemed most appropriate for what you believed to be the benefit of your
18 country; correct?
19 A. What we believed most legal and consistent with our obligation,
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I please have that as Defendant's next in
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Its admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document shall be given
1 Exhibit D138.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH:
5 Q. Now, with regard to the issue of relief, and by that I mean
6 relief supplies being in these shipments, what was actually going on, and
7 you were aware of the fact that it was going on, is that arms were being
8 sent to your country under the guise of humanitarian aid, were they not?
9 A. Not that I am aware of. Not at least of specific situations.
10 Q. And I take it by that, that you have difficulty, then, with the
11 accuracy of the article that we just discussed?
12 A. We are talking about the "Los Angeles Times" article?
13 Q. That's correct.
14 MS. BOLTON: Sorry.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
16 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, I thought the question to the witness was
17 about his knowledge. And now my friend has asked him a question about
18 the accuracy of an article. I don't think the witness is in a position
19 to comment on the accuracy of the article. He'd had no firsthand
20 knowledge. He has told us he hadn't read the article until today. I
21 just don't think it's appropriate for him to be commending on whether the
22 article is or isn't --
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Not a problem, I'll withdraw the question. I can
24 do this in a entirely different way and would be more than happy to.
25 Could we have 1D03 -- I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm just trying to move as
1 quick as I can because I'm worried about breakdown.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we have 1D03-4574. Which I believe,
4 Mr. Registrar, should be the third document in the first package. This
5 is an article from the "Washington Times."
6 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have that, Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH:
8 Q. Is this one of the articles that you were reading during the
9 period of time?
10 A. Reading the first few lines, I'm at least aware of some of the
11 contents of this, that's correct.
12 Q. Okay. With regard to the second paragraph, it says:
13 "'We'd seen various aid shipments go in independent of the UN and
14 had raised our concerns with the Croatian government and said you might
15 want to check these things out,' said a senior US official who asked not
16 to be identified."
17 Now, with regard to the issue of various aid shipments, were you
18 aware of the fact that your country was receiving, and I use the term
19 euphemistically, various aid shipments which in fact turned out to be
20 arms in violation of Resolution 713?
21 A. If that was the case, at best I know only as isolated incidents.
22 My biggest concern, frankly, at that time was to what extent
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina controlled at borders. And we were concerned, at
24 least I was concerned, about in fact what could be coming through those
25 borders in the form of either illegitimate supplies or men.
1 Q. Okay. With regard to the -- with regard to the answer you've
2 just given, it says, and I want to make sure we are on the same page, I
3 was concerned about in fact what could be coming in through those borders
4 in the form of either, is it illegitimate supplies, or is it -- thank
6 A. That's correct. That's the term I used.
7 Q. Fine. The transcript said something slightly different. I just
8 wanted to double-check.
9 Now with regard to your concern about there being illegitimate
10 supplies, I take it this is something that you voiced to your president
11 or other members of your government while you were in New York, working
12 on behalf of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
13 A. That's correct, we would have discussions on these issues.
14 Q. And with regard to the diplomatic dance you were going through at
15 the time you had to deal with the reality on the ground as well as make
16 sure that you kept a certain level of diplomatic, shall I say, validity
17 while you were at the United Nations; correct?
18 A. I wouldn't say that's correct. My focus was on two things.
19 First of all, in any way undermining the flow of humanitarian supplies
20 which I certainly perceived as being essential, so any sort of corruption
21 of that system would be very troubling. And certainly, number 2, I would
22 be concerned about the flow of men into the country, which would very
23 much undermine what I understood to be Bosnian's ideological goal in
24 terms of preserving a secular multi-ethnic state.
25 Q. I take it that what you did because of those concerns when you
1 received the information like the information we are discussing here
2 because of the potential impact it would have, the negative impact it
3 would have, that you wrote to your government and said, Stop this from
4 happening. Do not let this occur. Right?
5 A. I certainly had those types of discussions with my government;
6 that is correct.
7 Q. Did you write to them about it? Did you memorialize it?
8 A. Certainly the first point would be try to verify if there was any
9 such information.
10 Q. Mr. Sacirbey, my question to you is, Did you memorialise these
11 concerns that you had discussions about in the same fashion that you've
12 memorialised so many other things?
13 A. If I did memorialise it, I don't have the specific recollection
14 of that document.
15 Q. Curious.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we please have --
17 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, if my friend could refrain from making
18 inappropriate sarcastic remarks on the record, I would appreciate it.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do apologise. Tab 41, please, 1D03-0792.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you want to do with this one first?
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I have it moved into evidence.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be given
25 Exhibit D139. Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I'm reviewing that document.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH:
3 Q. Good. Do you recognise this document?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. This is a letter that you wrote on 18th of May, 1993; correct?
6 A. It actually reflects a letter from President Izetbegovic, yes.
7 It introduces it.
8 Q. Thank you. This is a letter that was distributed; correct? In
9 the general distribution?
10 A. That is --
11 Q. This is a letter --
12 A. Yes, I believe it has been.
13 Q. And this is a letter that indicates that the current mandate --
14 and I'm going to the second full paragraph. It says:
15 "We believe that the current mandate of the United Nations forces
16 in our republic is inadequate."
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. And in the first paragraph, once again, there's a discussion
20 about voiding the arms embargo; correct?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. Now, with regard to the mandate that your president is indicating
23 is inadequate, are you referring to the mandate coupled with the rules of
24 engagement that existed at that time for self-defence by UNPROFOR forces?
25 A. The view was that in fact there needed to be a clear mandate to
1 confront attacks upon the republic and, of course, its citizens and
3 Q. And when you say there needed to be a clear mandate, it was your
4 position, was it not, that UNPROFOR at that time should be acting in a,
5 what I would call, a proactive fashion as opposed to a peacekeeping
6 defensive fashion; correct?
7 A. If I may, I think the word you would want to say peacemaking
8 versus peacekeeping. There was no peace to keep at that time.
9 Q. Well, we certainly agree about that.
10 A. So obviously you need to make the peace to keep it.
11 Q. Okay. And it was your position that what should occur - when I
12 say your, I'm talking about your position as the ambassador for
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina - is that UNPROFOR should engage in active military
14 activity in order to make peace; right?
15 A. Again, depending on the environment. If we are talking about
16 delivery of humanitarian assistance, they should ensure that is
17 delivered. If we are talking about attacks upon the country and
18 particularly the population, then in fact those attacks could be --
19 should be confronted. We are now talking about that critical phase in
20 time when the safe areas resolution was being adopted.
21 Q. And are you limiting your answers to those two areas as being
22 what your position was concerning what the UNPROFOR mandate should have
24 A. With all sincerity, that's a difficult qualification. I think
25 what we are saying is there is no peace to keep. Before there can be a
1 peace to keep, you must make sure that in fact there is a peace, and of
2 course at the same time you must make sure that the civilian population,
3 the population as a whole is in fact adequately fed and taken care of and
4 protected from attack.
5 Q. All right.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could that be marked as Defendant's next in
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: So marked. May it please be given a number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document shall be given
10 Exhibit D140. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could please have tab 47, Mr. Registrar.
13 That's 1D03-0806.
14 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have that in front of me.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH:
16 Q. UNPROFOR was comprised of a number of different member states
17 including Russia
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. This letter is a letter in which you are indicating, and by that
20 I mean your president is indicating that you do not approve of the
21 arrival of additional Russian troops to Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
22 A. Under the conditions that existed, that's correct.
23 Q. Well, the conditions that existed was apparently there was, as I
24 understand the letter, looking at the first paragraph, there was some
25 disapproval of the manner in which the Russian soldiers behaved on their
1 arrival to Sarajevo
2 and harmed the reputation of the United States mission; right?
3 A. I believe United Nations mission you were referring to, not
4 United States, correct?
5 Q. Yes, thank you so much.
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Now, in this letter, you are attributing -- I am sorry, by that I
8 mean President Izetbegovic is attributing behaviours to the Russian
9 UNPROFOR troops that they were in support to the aggressor; right?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. And that would -- the aggressor being the troops of
12 General Mladic; right?
13 A. That is correct.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I have this marked as Defendant's next in
15 order, please.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's so marked. May it please be given an exhibit
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document shall be given
19 Exhibit D141. Thank you.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we please have tab number 48. 1D03-0808.
21 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I'm familiar with the letter.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH:
23 Q. This is a letter that you penned; correct? That is not a letter
24 that comes from your president; right?
25 A. The information I believe did come from several sources,
1 including Sarajevo
2 Q. And in this letter you are, if I'm not mistaken, looking at the
3 very -- the second to last paragraph before you asked for it to be
5 "It appears this is arrangement may be rescinded under pressure,
6 nonetheless I'm saddened to inform you that the government of the
7 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina by this act and other more recent
8 behaviour of certain United Nations related personnel..."
9 And I take it there so we're clear you are referring to Mr.
11 A. To be very honest with you, I'm not sure who the reference to is.
12 Q. We'll get to that then.
13 A. I just don't know.
14 Q. We'll get to that; it's fine.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where are you reading?
16 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I do remember the incident, that's
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
19 MS. BOLTON: Yes, sorry, Your Honour, again I'm not clear on the
20 relevance of this document to my friend's line of questioning,
21 particularly what particular individuals Bosnia-Herzegovina had an issue
22 with or, for example, on the last document, the behaviour of Russian
23 peacekeepers. Again I don't see how either of those issues relate to
24 live issues in these proceedings.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm still trying to find out where you were
1 reading, Mr. Guy-Smith. Maybe if I can see that, I can see whether
2 there's any relevance or not.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure. In order for you ultimately to make an
4 assessment with regard to our client's mens rea, you are going to be
5 looking at a series of documents and publications that all went into
6 various determinations that were made. And the totality of the picture
7 is something that I believe the Chamber is going to need in order to
8 determine what was done, why things were done, why things were not done,
9 and what the positions were. And clearly, clearly, the kinds of
10 diplomatic give-and-take that was occurring at the United Nations is
11 something that is of import to your ultimate determination.
12 We've heard again and again and again and again about the
13 resolutions that were passed and the about the statements that were made
14 by various members of either the General Assembly or the Security Council
15 with regard to various issues. This is as critical and as much a part of
16 what we are talking about as that is.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, I was asking you where you were
18 reading from this document so that I can --
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry. It appears, I'm looking at the second
20 to last paragraph.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which starts with "it appears this ..."
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: "It appears that this arrangement may be
23 rescinded under pressure," yes. And it goes on which is -- I had
24 indicated that I thought it could be Mr. Akashi, but it goes on:
25 "The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina has lost all confidence in
1 these individual's actions to promote the United Nations mandate and an
2 overall peace settlement in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
4 Yes, Madam Bolton
5 MS. BOLTON: If I could respond to my friends's comments. Again
6 I don't see any link in terms of the mens rea with this document. The
7 issue of the mens rea is in part depending on whether on 7-1 or 7-3 would
8 be, for example, did he have notice of the fact that there were
9 allegations of crimes on the part of the Bosnian Serb army? That has
10 nothing to do with the contents of this letter, the contents of the
11 previous letter. So any relationship, as far as I can see, the mens rea
12 is non-existent.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: What I understand Mr. Guy-Smith to be saying is
14 that what his client did he did in response to some of the things that
15 are being said here, and that therefore he wants the mens rea of his
16 client to be looked at against the background of what had come to his
17 knowledge about the activities of the opposite number in the war zone.
18 Now, that's how I understand him. Am I misunderstanding you,
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: You are not, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: For that reason, then we will not allow your
22 objection. I'm sorry, Madam Bolton.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH:
24 Q. With regard to the statement that is made there, when you
25 indicate that you have lost all confidence in these individuals' actions,
1 was that a matter that was discussed, first of all, amongst your
2 colleagues at the United Nations?
3 A. In fact, there was an assault ongoing upon Gorazde and weapons
4 were being moved from Sarajevo
5 this as a direct help to the Serbian forces by allowing them to take
6 weapons out of the exclusion zone in Sarajevo
7 assault on another exclusion zone which was the safe area of Gorazde.
8 Q. Mr. Sacirbey, Mr. Sacirbey, once again I'd appreciate if you
9 answer my question.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before he does so, can I just get clarity,
11 Mr. Guy-Smith. When you say discussed with your colleagues, who do you
12 mean? His office mates in the Bosnia-Herzegovina mission or in the
13 United Nations?
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I've been using that as form for in the
15 United Nations, Your Honour. And I'll be clearer. And I understand your
16 question; I'll be clearer.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I'll tell you now what I find a little putting
18 -- it's like you are putting the cart before the horse, because my
19 understanding of this letter is that he is tabling it before the
20 United Nations and saying, Let's discuss. He didn't discuss it before he
21 wrote the letter. He is asking it to be discussed.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not sure whether that's the case or not; I'm
23 trying to find that out. You may well be right, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH:
1 Q. Having His Honour's concern in mind, first of all, is this a
2 letter in which you were requesting that the matter be discussed by
3 members of the Security Council?
4 A. Yes, it was.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]... read that last
6 paragraph, the one sentence.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. And I'm referring -- would you like me to
8 read that again?
9 Q. And I'm referring to:
10 "It appears this is arrangement may be rescinded under pressure,
11 nonetheless I'm saddened to inform you the government of the Republic of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina by this act and other more recent behaviour of certain
13 United Nations related personnel in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
14 has lost all confidence in these individuals' actions to promote the
15 United Nations mandate and an overall peace settlement in the Republic of
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina."
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was referring to the very last paragraph.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. "May I ask for your kind assistance in circulating this letter as
20 a document of the Security Council."
21 And was that done, sir, to your knowledge?
22 A. Yes, it was.
23 Q. And as a result of that being done, was there a discussion with
24 regard to the concerns that you have raised in the second to last
1 A. That is correct, in the context of the elaboration I gave a
2 couple of answers earlier.
3 Q. And with regard to --
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I have this as Defendant's next in order
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
7 please be given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document shall be given
9 Exhibit D142. Thank you.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH:
11 Q. And with regard to the issue contained in the second to last
12 paragraph of Exhibit D142, all confidence in these individuals' actions,
13 if we could please have tab 42. That will be for you, which will be
15 A. This is a letter of 6 May 1994
16 Q. That's correct. That, I believe, would be the day after the
17 letter we were just discussing, which was the 5th of May.
18 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, if I could just beg my friend's indulgence.
19 The tab 42 in my binder that was provided doesn't match, and I'm just
20 trying to find this document.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: It would be 1D03-0794.
22 MS. BOLTON: I'll just try to follow it on e-court, thank you.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH:
24 Q. Have you had a chance to look at this document?
25 A. Yes, I have.
1 Q. Now, first of all, this document was circulated; correct?
2 A. Yes, I believe it was.
3 Q. And in this document, once again, I'm going back to, for a
4 moment, the individual that was being discussed on May 5th. Looking at
5 the letter, it says:
6 "The Secretary-General special representative for the former
8 government has placed in him and which was the basis for any form of
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Goes on to say that: "Methods have been witnessed," in
13 paragraph 2, "that can only be described as counter-productive in
14 handling the critical issues of war and peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. The next paragraph goes directly to the matter that you were
18 raising concerning Gorazde in which you take the position that Mr. Akashi
19 acted in obvious contradiction with relevant Security Council resolutions
20 and decisions of NATO Council; right?
21 A. That's correct, particularly Resolution 752 and 757 requiring
22 that Serbian heavy weapons either be placed in the hands of the
23 international community or be surrendered to the government of the
24 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In this case, those weapons in fact
25 were allowed to move freely through the exclusion zone and in fact toward
1 an attack on another safe area.
2 Q. What you are referring to is the Serbian tanks that were being
3 complained about in the previous exhibit; correct?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. Now, with regard to the position that Bosnia-Herzegovina took as
6 it related to the United Nations representative, you took the position
7 that Mr. Akashi has practically placed himself on the side of the
9 "I am convinced that very few well-meaning individuals including
10 his closest associates can comprehend or explain Mr. Akashi's actions."
11 And then the letter concludes with the following paragraph which
13 "I'm obliged to inform you that for the above-stated reasons, the
14 government of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina can no longer
15 cooperate with Mr. Akashi."
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Now, when you took this position that your government would no
19 longer cooperate with Mr. Akashi, I take it by that, that you felt you
20 were no longer bound by considerations that existed under the various
21 resolutions that we have been referring to; correct?
22 A. That's not correct.
23 Q. Independent of 713, of course.
24 A. That's not correct. That's actually not correct. Let me make
25 sure I clarify why it's not correct. Number one, I certainly did not
1 take that position. And second of all, I am not referring to -- this
2 letter does not refer to UN Security Council resolutions. But in fact as
3 my explanation before, in fact we are concerned that Resolution 752 and
4 757 is being violated by allowing weapons to be employed which were
5 previously either in exclusion zones or under international control.
6 Q. Okay. First of all, so we are clear, when you say I certainly
7 did not take that position, are you saying that in your capacity as the
8 ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina you did not take the position that is
9 stated in this letter by your president, President Izetbegovic, is that
10 what you are telling us?
11 A. No, I should be clear on that. The point is, this is a view that
12 President Izetbegovic took, and of course that view at some point in time
13 did at least change to some degree.
14 Q. Apart from that which is something we may well get to, what I'm
15 asking, the point in time that you circulated this letter, are you
16 telling us that you said, I'm circulating this letter on behalf of my
17 president, my colleagues on the United Nations Security Council, but this
18 is not my position?
19 A. No, that's not true. I'm saying that in fact this is a position
20 taken by President Izetbegovic, and it certainly did not reflect our
21 position on UN Security Council resolutions.
22 Q. Well, with regard to the issue of -- with regard to the issue of
23 UN Security Council resolutions, you say on page 42 at line 1:
24 "And second of all, I'm not referring to -- this letter does not
25 refer to UN Security Council resolutions."
1 Well, my question to you is this: As a matter of fact, as I read
2 the letter, it very specifically discusses UN Security Council
3 resolutions in paragraph 3 where it says:
4 "His conduct and decisions regarding the crisis around Gorazde
5 are, in our opinion, in obvious contradiction with the relevant
6 Security Council resolutions and decisions of the NATO Council."
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. I believe I've I'm consistent on that point, Mr. Guy-Smith, I am
11 not sure where you believe the inconsistency exists.
12 Q. Well, you make assumptions, sir. You make assumptions.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Can I have this admitted as the Defendant's next
14 in order.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
16 exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be given
18 Exhibit D143. Thank you.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we please have 1D03-4576, which will be I
20 believe, Mr. Registrar, tab number 4 in the original packet of newspaper
22 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I'm reviewing the article, and
23 I'm familiar with its contents.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH:
25 Q. Okay. When you say you are familiar with its contents, let's see
1 if we can figure out in terms of time a couple of different issues.
2 First of all, I take it we would agree that the article comes from the
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. It's discussing an Iranian air force transport plane loaded with
6 60 tonnes of explosives and other raw materials for weapons production,
7 landed in Zagreb
8 to renew military cooperation against the Serbs, western and Bosnian
9 sources say.
10 And I take it some of those Bosnian sources that asserted this in
11 this May 13th article are individuals who you spoke with or had
12 information from concerning this particular transport plane?
13 A. I really don't know who those Bosnian sources are, but I'm
14 familiar again with the article.
15 Q. The next thing is:
16 "The May 4th arrival," next paragraph, "of the Boeing 747 cargo
17 plane in Croatia
18 embargo imposed by the UN Security Council on Yugoslavia and its former
19 republics in September 1991."
21 A. Yes, I read that.
22 Q. With regard to the information that is contained here, you were
23 aware of the fact that on May 4th, the day before the letter was written
24 on May 5th, that there had been a shipment of explosives and other raw
25 materials for weapons productions that were seized for the benefit of
1 your country, were you not?
2 A. Are you referring to personally I was aware?
3 Q. I'm referring to whether or not you had that information, yes.
4 A. I don't recall. I certainly don't recall getting that
5 information for quite some time.
6 Q. To your knowledge -- to your knowledge was your president who
7 wrote the letter on May 5th which you had circulated at the
8 United Nations aware of this particular seizure?
9 A. I'm not aware of that.
10 Q. With regard to --
11 A. I really don't know.
12 Q. Okay. With regard to the next paragraph it says:
13 "Velayati," who I understand to be the Iranian foreign minister
14 "presented Bosnian President Alija Izetbegovic with a check for
15 $1 million and a chit for 10.000 tons of diesel fuel. Izetbegovic
16 responded with what appeared to be a thinly-veiled statement of thanks
17 for Iran
18 Now, these were matters which you were aware of, weren't you?
19 A. I'm certainly aware of this article. I don't remember having
20 discussed this particular event with President Izetbegovic, but I'm
21 certainly aware of the article.
22 Q. Was this article and the information contained in this article a
23 matter of conversation with you and your colleagues at the United Nations
24 General Assembly or Security Council?
25 A. I don't remember if the article was, but again, the subject
1 matter was.
2 Q. And the subject matter being the fact that you were continuing to
3 receive, by that I mean Bosnia-Herzegovina, was continuing to receive
4 armaments that caused concern in the international community in relation
5 to the prohibitions of Resolution 713; correct?
6 A. Without the characterisations, correct.
7 Q. And the characterisation being the prohibition of 713 which you
8 dispute; right?
9 A. Yes, and the word "concern."
10 Q. Concern. You do not believe -- it's your testimony that the
11 shipment of armaments in May of 1994 was not of concern to the
12 international community?
13 A. No, I'm saying first of all, as you've pointed out that it was
14 not a violation, and the word concern I think reflects only one element
15 of the discussion.
16 Q. Now, sir -- so you and I disagree there. I contend it was a
17 violation; I am acknowledging that you -- that it's your position that it
18 was not. I have no doubt about what Resolution 713 says, as far as I'm
19 concerned, but I'm not the judge of that.
20 A. That's correct, I think in both of our instances.
21 Q. If we could turn to -- if we could turn to the third page of this
22 article. I'm sorry, it would be the second page:
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could go back a page, Mr. Registrar. Thank
24 you so much. And go down to the bottom of the page.
25 Q. At the bottom of the page, starting with the paragraph that says:
1 "Cooperation was strengthened further in late April when Croatian
2 prime minister Nikica Valentic led a delegation to Iran to take Iran
3 sign an agreement with Iran
4 and technical assistance to the Bosnian people.'"
5 Were you --
6 A. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to find the -- oh, I see it. It's at
7 the top of page 3 here. I have that.
8 Q. Top of page 3 of the hard copy. That's correct.
9 Now, were you privy to this particular agreement to which you
10 were the beneficiary -- I'm sorry, to which your country was the
11 beneficiary, that's the delivery of "humanitarian and technical
12 assistance to the Bosnian people"?
13 A. I was aware of it but I was not privy to the specific terms of
14 the agreement.
15 Q. Okay, and with regard to technical assistance, I take it that
16 what we were referring to was armaments, are we not, among other things,
18 A. I did understand is as that.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Now, looking at the very last paragraph, it says, and I quote:
21 "'This is the first weapons-related convoy from the highest level
22 since the war began,' said a Bosnian military source. 'It's a
23 groundbreaker. We are hoping for more.'"
24 A. Yes, I read that.
25 Q. Now, is that particular quote attributed to somebody who you
1 know, first of all?
2 A. Not that I am aware of. I frankly don't know who it refers to.
3 Q. And with regard to the attitude that's contained therein, is
4 that, is that in fact the position that you were taking at the
5 United Nations concerning the importation of arms to Bosnia-Herzegovina
6 in 1994, in May of 1994? That you were hoping for more?
7 A. I'm certainly don't -- I'm not aware of who made this quote. And
8 second of all, I think I would be reading too much into that.
9 Q. Did you endorse that position in your capacities as ambassador
10 for Bosnia-Herzegovina in May of 1994, Mr. Sacirbey?
11 A. To the extent that in fact additional assistance was needed for
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina to defend itself, its country, territory and
13 population, I would endorse it.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could that be marked as Defendant's next in
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document shall be given
20 Exhibit D144. Thank you.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we have 1D03457 -- 4579. Page 4, please.
22 Which I believe will be, Mr. Registrar, I believe that it's going to be
23 tab number 5 in the first packet of information.
24 Q. Now, what I'm referring to is page number --
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] I'm --
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sorry I missed that.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] I'm just wondering, is it one of
3 these articles -- or is it from the binder?
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's one of the articles, Mr. Registrar.
5 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH:
7 Q. And I'm referring to page number 4 which starts off with "Iran
8 said to violate embargo." And I'm specifically referring to not the
9 issue of Iran
10 "The Bosnian army also received" -- you are going to have to go
11 to page 4, Mr. Sacirbey, otherwise we won't be working with each other.
12 A. Okay, I see it.
13 Q. Okay. The second paragraph which says:
14 "'The Bosnian army also received a large shipment of anti-tank
15 rockets delivered to Croatia
16 speaking on condition of anonymity."
17 Were you aware of the fact that your country was receiving
18 anti-rockets sent through a Brazilian ship?
19 A. To that specific question, no.
20 Q. With regard to this particular newspaper article, which is also
21 dated the 13th of -- sorry, not also dated -- yes, it's also dated the
22 13th of May, are you familiar with any information concerning Brazilian
23 ships smuggling weapons for the benefit of your country?
24 A. Not that I specifically recall.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. I am, of course, aware of the need for anti-tank weapons.
2 Q. Different issue. With regard to the next paragraph, which is:
3 "Four convoys carried the rockets and explosives to central
4 critical Bosnia
5 one-third cut of arms, he said." Is that something that you were privy
6 to, a deal between your county and the Bosnian Croats, whereby you would
7 split up the weapons that were being smuggled in so that you could use
8 them for those purposes you deemed appropriate?
9 A. I am aware of agreements between the Republic of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Republic of Croatia
11 arrangement, it may have fallen into the agreements with the Federation
12 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
13 Q. With regard to those agreements that you've just told us you were
14 aware of, those agreements were something that you made common knowledge
15 of to the international community of the United Nations, did you not?
16 A. Are you speak of me personally?
17 Q. I'm speaking about you in your capacity as ambassador for
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that your country made it known that you and Croatia
19 were involved in a deal whereby you would split up arms that is would
20 come into your country, you would get some of them and Croatia would get
21 some of them.
22 A. I don't believe I did that personally, although I'm quite certain
23 that that information was available.
24 Q. Well, when you say available, is this the kind of information
25 that you published, as you've published other information, or is this
1 information that you are telling us you believe was out on the
3 A. The latter statement is more accurate than the former.
4 Q. Considering the position that you took, Mr. Sacirbey, with regard
5 to your right to self-defence, can you explain to the Chamber why you did
6 not at that time make public to the world that you were involved inside
7 arms deals whereby you would be obtaining weapons for the benefit of your
8 nation which you believed to be appropriate?
9 A. I believe, Mr. Guy-Smith, most countries do not make public
10 information regarding receipt or even manufacture of weapons. We
11 certainly took the view that in fact weapons were entitled to come;
12 that's correct on that point.
13 Q. Did you take the view that you were entitled thereby to have
14 weapons come from another nation such as -- or another nation state such
15 as Croatia
16 A. Yes and whose territory at that time was also occupied, that's
18 Q. So it's the your position that not only Bosnia-Herzegovina but
19 also Croatia
20 strictures of 713; correct?
21 A. It was primarily for Croatia
22 think your conclusion is more accurate than not.
23 Q. That was your position, sir, is what I'm asking. I'm not asking
24 what Croatia
25 A. If Croatia
1 Q. That Croatia
2 A. Please go ahead.
3 Q. Sure. That Croatia
4 A. Well, Mr. Guy-Smith, first Croatia
5 Mr. Guy-Smith, first of all, Croatia
6 position -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
7 Q. I'm not interested in that, Mr. Sacirbey. I'm interested in your
8 position as a diplomat in front of an international body fighting for
9 your country where you have a side agreement with another nation state in
10 order to obtain weapons that have been deemed illegal under 713.
11 A. I think the cart comes ahead of the horse here, Mr. Guy-Smith.
13 upon that determination.
14 Q. Once Croatia
15 take it, it was your position that this certainly was not information
16 that you wanted out in the public, and by that I mean that you would
17 publicly acknowledge that you were doing this, this being illegally
18 bringing weapons into the country?
19 A. That's not correct. In fact, we did acknowledge that weapons
20 were coming in and other necessary resources for defence. We took that
21 position firmly on by 1994.
22 Q. Just so we are clear because I certainly don't -- my
23 understanding is you are aware of the information that is contained
24 within this particular newspaper article, but you are not aware of the
25 article itself; correct?
1 A. You took me all the way to the back, so I haven't read the
2 beginning of it. I think I'm actually -- I think I am aware of the
3 article, but I was reading right from the back so it didn't jog my
4 memory, but, yes, I am aware of the contents.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well, could I have that then marked as
6 Defendant's next no order.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document shall be given
10 Exhibit D145. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MS. BOLTON: Sorry to interrupt, Your Honours, but I do note the
13 time. We've now being going for another hour and 25 minutes or so. For
14 both my sake and perhaps the sake of the witness, I wonder if we could
15 have a break.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam. I've been trying to do mental
17 arithmetic how to divide the remaining time. I was coming to that, but
18 now that you are asking before I even get my answer. We'll take a break
19 and come back at 10 past 5:00. Court adjourned.
20 --- Recess taken at 4.38 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 5.10 p.m.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: This will be tab number 8 in the original packet.
24 It's 1D03-4589. This is a "Washington Times" article dated June 2nd,
1 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have that in front of me,
2 Mr. Guy-Smith.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
4 Q. The article starts out indicating that:
5 "Up to 400 Iranian Revolutionary Guards have been sent to Bosnia
6 to organise terrorist groups among Muslims in the region, according to
7 United States intelligence sources."
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. The next paragraph discusses the arrival of the guards and
11 shipments of arms and explosives in May; right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And we were earlier discussing before the break the seizure of
14 shipments of explosives as well as the discovery of Iranian guards in the
15 month of May, 1994; true?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And that was something that you were aware of, as I understood
18 your testimony?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Okay. Now, what I would like to do is I'd like to turn to what I
21 believe is your page 2. And it seems that information is now being
22 received that expands the fighters, the international fighters from those
23 of being only from Iran
24 Saudi Arabia, and Syria
25 talk about the article for a moment and ask you a series of questions
1 rather than talk about each one of these things.
2 The next paragraph indicates:
3 "'The Saudi government has supplied several hundred million
4 dollars' worth of arms to the Bosnian Muslims,' US officials said."
5 A. Yes, I see that.
6 Q. The next paragraph:
7 "The activities of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards in Bosnian
8 could complicate efforts to reach a peace settlement between Bosnian
9 Serbs and Muslims."
10 I want to stop here for a moment, with regard to the information
11 that is contained within this article dated June 2nd, 1994, in your
12 capacity as the ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina, first of all, were you
13 aware of the fact that fighters from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Syria
14 in Bosnia
15 A. I was aware of fighters from other countries including
16 Middle East, that is correct. As well as countries like Romania
17 but also from the Middle East; that is correct.
18 Q. Okay. And when you say from the Middle East, so we are clear, I
19 take it that you were indicating that you were aware that they were
20 fighters, from Egypt
21 other member states of the United Nations?
22 A. To be more precise, they would have been referred to as Arab
24 Q. Okay. Once again we seem to be --
25 A. I'm not sure about the -- sorry go ahead.
1 Q. We seem to be talking at somewhat cross purposes. I understand
2 that you were aware that there were fighters from the Middle East. Were
3 you aware of the fact that there were fighters being supplied to
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina from Egypt
5 A. No. You are saying fighters being supplied, which seems to
6 emphasise that, in fact, these fighters were being somehow channelled
7 through a regular means. I am aware that there were a lot of fighters of
8 Muslim background, particularly many Arabs, and many of them came from
9 western Europe as well as the Middle East.
10 Q. With regard to the fighters that came that are mentioned in this
11 particular paragraph, and I understand your particular concern, that you
12 do not want to answer the question to say that these were state
13 sanctioned fighters, my question is, Were you aware that there were
14 fighters who came from Egypt
15 A. Again, I'm only aware that fighters came of Arab origin or Muslim
16 origin from many places, the Middle East as well as western Europe.
17 Q. So then your answer would be you do not have specific information
18 that fighters came from Egypt
19 A. That is correct. That is correct.
20 Q. I take the same would be true for Saudi Arabia, is that your
22 A. That is correct. I'm -- it seems very likely that they came from
23 those countries, but I don't have any specific name to associate or any
24 specific group to associate with those countries.
25 Q. With regard to Syria
1 which is that you do not have any specific information that there were
2 fighters that came from Syria
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Now, with regard to the assertion made here, that there were
5 fighters from the Middle East who were coming to Bosnia and that the
6 Saudi government had supplied several hundred million dollars worth of
7 arms to the Bosnian Muslims, this was a matter that was of concern to you
8 as the ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina in representing the interest of
9 that country before the United Nations General Assembly and
10 Security Council, was it not?
11 A. To the extent that there were foreign fighters on any
12 quote/unquote side. Or to the extent they were particularly mercenaries,
13 that would be a real concern.
14 Q. Above and beyond that, you a specific concern, because such
15 reportage that there were quote, and I'm using the term in a generic
16 sense now, following your lead, that there were Muslim fighters, was
17 defining the problem in a way that you specifically did not want the
18 problem defined, and by that I mean along ethnic lines; correct?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Armed with this information, Mr. Sacirbey, is this a matter that
21 you raised with your colleagues in the United Nations in these
22 discussions you had on the record and off the record, that they were not
23 to be concerned about the fact that there were Muslim fighters and Muslim
24 assets and Muslim money being given to Bosnia to help in your war effort?
25 A. That they were not to be concerned?
1 Q. Precisely.
2 A. No, I don't think I would use the word that they were not to be
3 concerned. These were matters of certainly consideration.
4 Q. And when you say they were matters of consideration, as a matter
5 of fact, they were more than matters of consideration, they were matters
6 of some great moment, because the presence of these assets and these
7 individuals in Bosnia
8 A. In my opinion, the presence of these people could in fact further
9 what you were just speaking of earlier, which is the notion that this was
10 a religious conflict and that in fact it was just a pure civil war. In
11 fact, I never saw it as either a religious conflict or as a civil war.
12 And obviously the motivation for these individuals coming to Bosnia
13 be very different than the motivation of the Bosnian citizens and
14 soldiers who were just defending their country, in effect defending
15 themselves, and of course defending the territory, and defending against
16 genocide. I think there were in fact potentially two counter-purposes.
17 Q. One of the things that you objected to repeatedly, if I'm not
18 mistaken, and we heard it in your direct evidence, was when you were
19 identified as being a Muslim nation or a Muslim side; correct?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. So with regard to this particular issue, is this an issue that
22 you attempted, and by that I mean, the informations contained here that
23 you attempted to diminish in your capacity as an ambassador for
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina? And by diminish, I'm referring to discussions had
25 with people at the United Nations, your colleagues at the United Nations,
1 of various member states, to be very clear.
2 A. I'm not sure that's -- I'm not sure that's accurate. Certainly,
3 I did attempt to discuss this material with President Izetbegovic and
4 others who I had contacts with in Bosnia
5 from the perspective of Bosnia
6 United Nations. And to the extent that it did come up at the
7 United Nations, I am not sure I would dwell on it, but I'm not sure I
8 would be evasive about it either.
9 Q. Well, with regard to the manner in which you presented your
10 arguments in front of the United Nations Security Council and to the
11 General Assembly, you made it very clear that there was a Bosnian side,
12 did you not? A Bosnian Serb side?
13 A. Your question is not clear to me. I think you -- is it a
14 two-part question?
15 Q. What I'm getting at is this, Mr. Sacirbey. You very clearly
16 identified your perception of who the various players were in this
17 conflict. One of the players in the conflict --
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. One of the players in the conflict was the Bosnian Serb side, as
20 far as you were concerned; right?
21 A. Well, if you recall my testimony, I referred to it as the Serbian
22 side in almost every communication. I think there are some exceptions to
23 that. Or Pale Serbs.
24 Q. And you consistently rejected the notion or the perception or the
25 identification of a Muslim Bosnian side, did you not?
1 A. Yes, I did. Except in one instance, and that is to the extent
2 that Muslims were identified as targets for genocide.
3 Q. I understand that. But Muslims as being identified as
4 individuals who were fighting on behalf of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that was
5 something you rejected.
6 A. I did not -- that was not something as I viewed favouring the
7 cause of Bosnia-Herzegovina or its, obviously, definition in the future
8 as a multi-ethnic pluralistic state of all its citizens; that is correct.
9 Q. When you say it's something that you did not view as favouring
10 the cause of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it's a fact that you diminished in
11 public, the extent to which --
12 A. Again I --
13 Q. The extent to which Bosnia-Herzegovina was receiving aid and
14 assistance from a particular group, and by that I mean the Muslims?
15 A. I don't think that's accurate. I think you can receive aid from
16 Muslims without identifying yourself as somehow being part of a greater
17 Muslim cause or Jihad, if you would.
18 Q. I'm sure that may be the case, sir, but with regard to the
19 concerns that were being voiced, if we might, and I refer you to the same
20 article that you are looking at -- and I refer you to the same article
21 you are looking at, if you go down --
22 A. Right.
23 Q. One after the indication, the activities the Iranian
24 Revolutionary Guard in Bosnia
25 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 paragraphs where Mr. Katzman is talking, and he says,
1 "they don't are have to be that fervor," Mr. Katzman said of the recruits
2 sought by the guards. "The guards are like a virus, they get into a
3 country and replicate themselves leaving a militia behind."
4 A. If you are asking me to comment on this overall article, first of
5 all I do not believe there were 400 Iranian Revolutionary Guards in
7 And seconds of all, there was always a fundamental contradiction
8 between the -- if you would, the Shiite Muslim Iranian Revolutionary
9 Guard and the Sunni Muslims. That contradiction existed throughout the
11 Q. Mr. Sacirbey, I think that you and I may, at another point in
12 time, have a conversation over the difference between Sunni and
13 Shiite Muslims, but I don't think now is necessarily the time or the
14 place, because what I'm dealing with is the perception here, the
15 perception that now we have voiced by Mr. Katzman, a Middle East
16 specialist with a Congressional Research Service which is found in the
17 same article, discussing the dilemma of the Revolutionary Guards on your
19 A. And how would you like me to comment on that. I'm sorry. I do
20 read that.
21 Q. My question is to you, this is a matter that you attempted to
22 diminish and to avoid.
23 A. Again I --
24 Q. I'm sorry. Are you getting instruction?
25 A. No, no, I was listening. I was waiting to hear your question.
1 Q. I don't know if you are getting instruction or not. I heard
2 another voice, so --
3 A. No, no.
4 Q. -- I thought you might be getting instruction.
5 A. No, not at all.
6 Q. Whether this was something that you were avoiding in your
7 capacity as the ambassador of Bosnia-Herzegovina to diminish the Muslim
9 A. I was not trying to diminish the issue of whether or not Bosnia
10 was receiving assistance from Muslims or Muslim states. I was trying to
11 in fact present a Bosnia
12 a Muslim state but in fact committed to secular pluralistic state. I
13 hope I'm answering your question.
14 Q. You are doing the best you can.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Can we have that marked as Defendant's next in
17 MS. BOLTON: Just I assume my friend, as with the previous
18 exhibits, is proffering it not for truth of its contents but for a state
19 of mind, since the witness has agreed he does not agree with the accuracy
20 of the contents of this article, for example.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure. Don't mind that at all, not on this one.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The document is then admitted into
23 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number for that purpose.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document shall be given
25 Exhibit D146. Thank you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 Mr. Guy-Smith.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I take it we are referring to 456, correct, the
4 last exhibit? Okay. Fine.
5 Can we please have 4592.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does it also start with ID03?
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. That would be, I
8 believe, this would be number 9, Mr. Registrar, I believe.
9 Q. I believe that's an article dated the 24th of June, 1994.
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Okay. "Iranian weapons sent via Croatia aid to Muslims get US
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Okay. And I'd like you to look at the very bottom of this
15 article, where it says:
16 "Pentagon officials are concerned the Iranian arms, while helping
17 Muslims defends themselves, complicate peace efforts, which appear to be
18 foundering due to widespread violations of a June 10th truce agreement."
19 A. Yes, I see that. Actually, at that time it seemed that is the
20 truth was most effective.
21 Q. At that time it seemed that the truth was most effective, is that
22 what you said?
23 A. Yes, the middle of that summer in 1994.
24 Q. Okay. Do I take it, then, with regard to the statement made here
25 concerning there being widespread violations of that agreement, is that
1 something that you take issue with?
2 A. If you remember my direct testimony, I believe I was asked what
3 was the status of the truth in the summer of 1994, and I think I
4 indicated that it was probably at its most effective in terms of at least
5 the civilian population and what was happening to them.
6 Q. All right. I'd like to turn to the next page of this article.
7 And I'd like to go down 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 paragraphs to the paragraph which
8 starts with "Kenneth Katzman ,"I believe the gentleman we were speaking
9 about in the last article, "a specialist on Iran with the Congressional
10 Research Service, said Iran
11 as part of a UN force, but the world body does not want them there."
12 Do you see that?
13 A. Yes, I see that. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Now is that something that was a matter of discussion within the
15 halls either formally or informally at the United Nations, that Iran
16 had --
17 A. Iran
18 Q. That Iran
19 when the truce was holding, according to you?
20 A. Iran
21 the times spanned the range of this conflict.
22 Q. And when you use the term "peacekeepers" --
23 A. It was only in the context of UN peacekeepers that I am aware of.
24 Q. When you use the term "peacekeepers," is it is your testimony
25 that the 10.000 troops that Iran
1 through the United Nations?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. I see. Now, with regard to the issue of the lifting of the arms
4 embargo, something that you were a great proponent of, if I'm not
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. I would like you to go down further in the article where it says:
8 "On Capitol Hill, defence officials from Britain, France
9 and Denmark
10 yesterday that a unilateral lifting of the arms embargo against Bosnia
11 the United States would intensify the conflict."
12 I continue --
13 A. Yes, I see that.
14 Q. "'We believe that the lifting of the arms embargo would have the
15 effect of pouring gasoline on fire and mean an all-out war,' said Danish
16 undersecretary for Defence Anders Troldborg."
17 Mr. Troldborg appeared along with Jean Claude Mallet, the
18 director of strategic policy at the French Defence ministry; General Juan
19 Martinez Ezparza, a deputy undersecretary at the Spanish defence
20 ministry; and Major-General Rupert Smith, director of strategic policy at
21 the British Defence ministry?
22 Now my first question to you with regard to part of the article
23 is you were aware, were you not, that there were hearings in front of the
24 United States Senate arms services committee in June concerning the
25 lifting of the arms embargo?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. And this is actually something that we actually discussed the
3 other day with regard -- and I'm asking you the question, with regard to
4 the private conversation that you had with Mr. Holbrooke to back off of
5 Senator Dole; right?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. And just to refresh all of our recollection, Mr. Holbrooke told
8 you that if you backed off pushing the United States Senate for lifting
9 of the arms embargo, that you would get arms by other means; correct?
10 A. As he put it, from any source including Iran.
11 Q. I see. Now, with regard to this statement here made by Danish
12 undersecretary for defence Anders Troldborg concerning pouring gasoline
13 and fire and mean an all-out war, could you tell us, please, what was
14 your position on the cessation of hostilities agreement as it related to
15 lifting of the embargo?
16 A. It was positive.
17 Q. It was positive.
18 A. On the cessation of hostilities, we were certainly positive
19 because it provided the Bosnian citizens with certainly some greater
20 security as well as further assistance. I must point out again, though,
21 that this comment here, I'm not sure what anyone believes Bosnia had been
22 undergoing for the previous two plus years, if it was not an all-out war.
23 It was not only an attack on the country from one end to the other, but
24 in fact the civilian population had been targeted and as I have said --
25 Q. I understand your position there.
1 A. [Overlapping speakers] ...
2 Q. I understand your position there. And you've said it the same
3 way they vote in Chicago
4 But with regard to this particular concern being voiced by one of the
5 members -- a representative of one of the members of the United Nations
6 that would have the effects of pouring gasoline on the fire, did you take
7 that in consideration when you were pushing for a lifting of this
9 A. Actually, we did.
10 Q. And the position that you took was in the face of such a
11 statement that it was your position that the embargo should be lifted;
13 A. No, it was actually our position, if in fact the international
14 community was not capable of suffocating the war, that in fact the
15 Bosnian government and its people should be allowed to defend themselves.
16 Clearly there was not either a will, perhaps maybe there was not a means,
17 but certainly there was not a will suffocate that war, put out the fire.
18 Q. I'd like you to turn to the next page of this document, if you
19 could, sir.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Looking at the last paragraphs, it says:
22 "Meanwhile, leaders of the United States, Russia
23 expected to endorse a peace plan dividing up Bosnia at an economic summit
24 meeting next month as senior administration officials said."
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that what we have on the screen?
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not sure, Your Honour. The page breaks are
2 different, so we are going to have to go back a page. It will be the
3 very last paragraph. And if we could now go on to the next page after
4 everyone has had an opportunity to look at that page.
5 Q. "'The plan calls for giving Muslims and Croats 51 per cent of
6 Bosnian territory, while Bosnian Serbs would get 49 per cent. The Serbs
7 currently control about 72 per cent of Bosnia. The Bosnian government
8 has reacted negatively to the plan and will eventually resort to military
9 action to obtain more territory by force rather than through
10 negotiations,' US officials said."
11 A. I believe that statement is very inaccurate.
12 Q. First of all, let's talk about this plan. The plan that calls
13 for giving about 51 per cent of Bosnian territory to Muslims and Croats
14 and 49 per cent to the Serbs. Now, is that a plan that you were familiar
16 A. Yes, I was.
17 Q. And who was the author of that plan, if you know?
18 A. The Contact Group, which consisted of five countries as well as
19 the United Nations.
20 Q. Okay. And with regard to -- with regard to the plan itself, is
21 it your position that this is a plan that was endorsed by
23 A. Yes, it was, and the plan also -- this article seems to imply
24 that we are talking about a partition of Bosnia. In fact it was only an
25 internal --
1 Q. There was only an -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
2 A. There was no partition ever -- there was no partition that was
3 proposed by this plan. In fact it was only an internal delineation.
4 Q. An internal deviation or -- Mr. Sacirbey, hold on.
5 A. Delineation.
6 Q. Delineation is what you said.
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Fine. Okay. Thank you.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would like to have it this marked as
10 Defendant's next in order with an understanding, once again, because
11 Mr. Sacirbey has taken issue with certain aspects of it, and I think
12 specifically with "the Bosnian government has reacted negatively to the
13 plan," that particular statement is not being offered for the truth of
14 the matters -- contained in the document.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
16 please be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document should be given
18 Exhibit D147. Thank you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we please have -- this would be tab 82 in
22 the new batch, which would be 1D03-6495. July 2nd article from Reuters.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: While it's coming, Mr. Guy-Smith, are we likely to
24 finish with this witness today?
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't think so, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't think so. But we certainly will not take
3 all of tomorrow, I can assure you of that.
4 Q. Now, this article deals with tonnes of military equipment are
5 landing at a tiny air strip on the island of Krk
6 taken by road or boat for eventual delivery in Bosnia. Is this part of
7 the route by which your country was receiving arms?
8 A. Are you again asking for personal knowledge at the time or?
9 Q. At this moment I'm asking for personal knowledge, yes.
10 A. I was not personally aware of this, no. I was aware of,
11 obviously, all the reports of shipments coming in from Croatia.
12 Q. Okay. Were you aware -- referring to the same article again:
13 "United Nations cannot stop the flights, even though it knows the
14 arms are bound for Bosnian Muslims, because Croatia is outside the scope
15 of the arms embargo ... There is nothing we can do except watch these
16 arms being delivered," it quoted United States spokesman Paul Risley as
18 Did you ever speak to Mr. Risley about this issue?
19 A. I don't remember that I did.
20 Q. You know who Mr. Risley is though?
21 A. Actually, it escapes me right now, I must admit, although the
22 name sounds familiar.
23 Q. With regard to the next paragraph:
24 "Arms are being flown to Croatia and Slovenia
25 companies, some of them British, lured by promises of big cash payouts.
1 Some of the supplies appear to be coming from Ukraine and Iran
2 Well, in your capacity as the ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina,
3 were you aware of the fact that private British companies were engaged in
4 merchandising the weapons of war?
5 A. Not specifically, no.
6 Q. When you say not specifically, is this something that you had --
7 is this general knowledge?
8 A. I certainly was aware that there were many institutions from
9 several countries, and it would not surprise me that many of them would
10 come from non -- traditionally non-Muslim countries, including
11 Western Europe and others.
12 Q. And I take it we could agree that British -- British company
13 would be a European -- would be a company in a European nation which is
14 non-Muslim; right?
15 A. I think we can agree on that, yes.
16 Q. I think we can also agree on the fact that the United Kingdom is
17 a member state of the United Nations; correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I have this as Defendant's next in order.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
23 Exhibit D148. Thank you.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH:
25 Q. With regard to weapons that you -- your country was receiving,
1 you knew, did you not, that you were getting weapons including the
2 Red Arrow 8s from the People's Liberation Army of China, which are guided
3 missiles; right?
4 A. On that point, no, not specifically.
5 Q. Well, you were aware, were you not, that your country was
6 receiving RPG22 anti-rockets that were made in Russia, were you not?
7 A. I was aware that anti-tank weapons were a very important element
8 of the defence, and I assumed they were being received.
9 Q. Okay. And for the first one you said specifically, and by that
10 I'm referring to the latest wire-guided missiles. Were you aware of the
11 fact during your tenure as ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina that your
12 country was receiving missiles from China?
13 A. No, I was not.
14 Q. Were you aware in the same capacity that your country was
15 receiving RPG22 anti-rockets that were made in Russia? And that may go
16 back to the discussion we had before with regard to the Russian diplomats
17 that you met in the hallways of the United Nations.
18 A. Again, I'm not specifically aware of any such designated weapon.
19 I'm only aware of anti-tank weapons having been received by Bosnia
20 Q. And of the anti-tank weapons that you are aware of, are you aware
21 of their genesis, since apparently you are not aware of their specific
22 type, are you aware that Bosnia-Herzegovina received weapons from both
24 A. I was aware that weapons did come from the former Soviet block.
25 Q. That takes care of one of the two. What about China, sir?
1 A. I think I answered that I really wasn't aware, or maybe it just
2 slips me, but I don't think I was aware of that report.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Tab 50, please, which is 1D03-0816.
5 Q. This is a letter, I believe, that you authored which you asked to
6 be circulated in the Security Council on the 18th of August, 1994
7 A. Yes, I am familiar with this.
8 Q. Okay. Now, with regard to the issue of -- with regard to the
9 issue of the truce agreement that we were talking about before, perhaps
10 you can be of some assistance. Looking at paragraph 2, it says: "The
11 8 June 1994
12 being renewed."
13 A. Yes, this was the negotiations regarding the Contact Group plan.
14 Q. Right.
15 A. Which in fact was presented in Geneva by the Contact Group at the
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina accepted this plan; the Serbian side rejected it. And
18 obviously at that time the status quo on the ground was Bosnian city is
19 still besieged and intermittent fighting.
20 Q. Right. Now, with regard to what you've just said, you said the
21 Serbian side rejected it, right, that's what you just told us?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. I'd like to take a look at paragraph 3 here, and you were quite
24 specific with regard to who rejected this plan, were you not, what you
25 said was in your letter --
1 A. I was.
2 Q. -- "the Republican Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina
3 the Contact Group peace plan. The Karadzic forces have rejected the
4 plan, and have demanded terms and conditions that are totally
5 inconsistent with the territorial, constitutional, and human rights
6 standards envisioned by the Contact Group's plan. The Karadzic forces,
7 in fact, have effectively proposed the status quo as their basis for a
8 political settlement and therefore would favour a freezing of the current
9 situation." Right?
10 A. That is correct. That is the mouth from which the rejection was
12 Q. Excuse me, that's what you wrote, sir; right?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And this was unacceptable to you at that time; right?
15 A. In the context of this letter, that's correct.
16 Q. Now, within the context of this letter, you go on to say:
17 "The government and the army of the Republic of Bosnia
19 and spirit of the Contact Group's peace plan. Any attempts to cite the
20 army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina explicitly or implicitly as
21 violating a cease-fire, A, are factually incorrect because there is no
22 longer a cease-fire agreement in place ..."
23 And I want to stop there for a minute. And go to the first
24 paragraph of this letter, sir, in which you say:
25 "Upon the instructions of my government, I would like to clarify
1 a recent matter that has been a source of confusion in the deliberations
2 of the Security Council."
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. What are you claiming was the source of confusion at that time?
5 A. I cannot recall the specific incident, but I can only surmise
6 that it had to do with --
7 Q. If you can't recall, I'm not asking you to speculate.
8 A. -- reports of -- no, I cannot recall.
9 Q. Going to the bottom of page 1, you indicate:
10 "The government of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina could
11 not be blamed for interpreting any Security Council statements that are
12 inconsistent with the Contact Group peace plan and associated course of
13 action as being a rejection of that peace plan and consequent course of
15 Now, with regard to the statement that you made there -- and
16 perhaps we should go to the next page so that you have your full
17 paragraph, which is: "This would be --
18 A. Yes, I have that.
19 Q. -- "especially tragic and indefensible, since four members of the
20 Contact Group are also permanent members of the Security Council."
21 When you say on the first page that you could not be blamed for
22 interpreting any Security Council statements, are you referring to
24 A. I don't believe so because we are speaking of statements coming
25 either informal or formal from the Security Council.
1 Q. Are you referring to any presidential notes?
2 A. That could be the case. I just don't specifically recall.
3 Q. With regard to this language, interpreting any Security Council's
4 statements, would it be fair to say -- and I'm asking for your assistance
5 here, would it be fair to say that what you are discussing here are the
6 oral statements and opinions made by some member during a
7 Security Council meeting?
8 A. I just don't recall. Obviously, I remember what the motive is
9 and what the purpose is; I just don't recall what triggered it,
10 Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I have this letter as Defendant's next in
12 order then.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The letter is admitted into evidence. May it
14 please be given an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be given
16 Exhibit D149. Thank you.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could go to -- it's going to be number 11
18 in the first package, Mr. Registrar, which is 1D03-4597.
19 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have that.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH:
21 Q. And I'd like you to go down on the very first page and see
22 whether -- whether or not you recall this: First of all, so we are
23 clear, and I do apologise to the Chamber, this is an article dated
24 September 4th, 1994
25 A. Yes, I have that in front of me.
1 Q. Okay. The second paragraph says:
2 "The Bosnian army has nearly completed a buildup of 200.000
3 troops and asked the Iranian government, through its embassy in Zagreb
5 shipment from Iran
6 And then I would like to drop down 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 paragraphs
7 to where it says:
8 "Bosnian President Alija Izetbegovic has said recently that
9 lifting the embargo is not necessary because of his country's successful
10 military buildup."
11 You see that?
12 A. Yes, I do. And I don't agree with several paragraphs in this
14 Q. Well, I'm only asking you about these couple for the moment.
15 Moving on to the next page --
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Moving on to the next page:
18 "Officials have said weapons originated in sites including Iran
19 which we've talked about before, "Iraq, and Lebanon
20 delivery routes have been used to avoid tracking by western intelligence
22 "Still the shipments have been followed from the Middle East
23 through," and now we have two new countries, "Malaysia and turkey and
24 into Croatia
25 First of all, before we go my further, to your knowledge, is
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. And what about Malaysia
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. And what about Lebanon
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Okay. In your capacity as an ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina,
8 were you aware of the fact that both Malaysia and Turkey
9 troops to work with UNPROFOR?
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. With regard to the information that's contained in the paragraph
12 that we have spoken about first of all, which is the Bosnian army has
13 nearly completed a buildup of 200.000 troops, had you been informed by
14 your president or your military that such was the case by September 4th,
16 A. That in fact Bosnia
17 at that time, yes.
18 Q. Were you made aware of the fact by your president that lifting of
19 the embargo was not necessary because of your country's successful
20 military buildup?
21 A. I don't believe that statement is accurate.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Even its attribution to President Izetbegovic. Actually, to be
24 complete, President Izetbegovic did make a somewhat similar statement
25 before the UN General Assembly after the discussion that I cited with
1 Mr. Holbrooke. But I do not -- I do not believe that this particular
2 time and this particular reference is accurate. And also the first
3 paragraph speaks of a major offensive against the town of Gorazde. Well,
4 at least it's sloppy writing because Gorazde in fact was under the
5 control of the Bosnian government. So how can you have an offensive led
6 by the Bosnian government against the town that it holds?
7 Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Sacirbey, with regard to the issue of
8 the troop buildup, are you in a position to tell us what the troop
9 strength was in Sarajevo
10 A. Region by region, no. Region by region, no.
11 Q. Was that information that was given to you in your capacity as
12 the representative of Bosnia-Herzegovina during your tenure at the
13 United Nations?
14 A. It could have been, but I don't recall it.
15 Q. Let me ask you this question: I believe it's going to be page 2
16 of the same document. It says -- and I'm going down eight paragraphs, it
18 "'The Bosnian Muslims have launched numerous grounds attack using
19 special tactics that have given them advantages over the better-armed
20 Serbs,' the officer said. 'They have shown a great ability to move on
21 the ground, to move at night, very innovative.' The officer said the
22 tactics do not reflects Russian or Iranian training but appeared to have
23 been developed by the Bosnian Muslims themselves."
24 Do you agree with that particular assertion made in this article?
25 A. Again, without specifically knowing what the tactics that they
1 are referring to, I think in fact there was of course a need for greater
2 innovation and courage.
3 Q. Well, is this something -- is this something that you discussed
4 with your president, that in face of --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That in face of the kinds of weapons, that you had to come up
7 with, innovative tactics, and in fact you were successful in that regard?
8 A. To some extent, but, frankly, I think we were more successful in
9 stemming the tide rather than reversing it. I think in fact there was --
10 Q. Well --
11 A. Please go ahead.
12 Q. Well, my question really is, is this something that you agree
13 with this particular statement contained in this article?
14 MS. BOLTON: Sorry to interrupt, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
16 MS. BOLTON: My friend this last few questions just seems to be
17 by asking for the witness's opinions on various subjects, the current
18 subject being military tactics. He is not a specialist or expert in
19 military tactics. His opinions on any matter, really, are of absolutely
20 no import to the Tribunal, and I object on that basis.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well ... I'll move on based upon the assertion
23 just made by Ms. Bolton.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess by that you are saying you accept the
25 objection, and therefore you'll move away from --
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I accept the objection based upon her analysis of
2 what she says in her objection. That's fine.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to this specific issue. This
5 specific document.
6 If I could have -- and I believe it's going to be tab 52.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would move its admission.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document shall be given
12 Exhibit D150.
13 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, just with respect to that last exhibit, I
14 take it again since the witness took exception to great amount of the
15 contents of the document that that will just be noted on the record.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess you accept that, Mr. Guy-Smith.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understand that, yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. It is admitted for those purposes.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could have tab 52, which is going to be
21 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I'm there.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH:
23 Q. Have you had a chance to look at the document, Mr. Sacirbey?
24 A. It's the 17th of --
25 Q. I apologise, I mispronounced your name, Mr. Sacirbey.
1 A. This is 17th of October, 1994?
2 Q. That's correct. This is a four-page document, which I believe is
3 a letter that was written by you that you asked to have circulated as
4 part of the Security Council.
5 A. Yes, I have that in front of me. It's a long letter, but I'm
6 prepared for you to ask whatever question you feel is appropriate.
7 Q. Okay. I'd like to start off with the assertion that you make
8 that there is now a new mandate which you call a rogue mandate attributed
9 to UNPROFOR.
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. And as I understand your objections, your objections are that
12 this rogue mandate, as you call it, gives the Bosnian Serbs a military
13 advantage over Sarajevo
14 A. I think it's best summarised by the last paragraph in the first
15 page. It appears that UNPROFOR had adopted the Bosnian Serb view that
16 the siege of Sarajevo
17 were legitimate military countermeasures.
18 Q. Now, with regard to -- with regard to this particular position
19 that you've taken, could you tell us, if you recall, who was the head of
20 UNPROFOR at this time in October of 1994?
21 A. I believe it was still General Rose. I think it's still a little
22 time before General Rupert Smith would come in.
23 Q. Mm-hmm. And I know that you have a very definite view about
24 General Rose which we may get to, but --
25 A. As I do about General Rupert Smith, and the views are quite
1 contradictory as to those two individuals.
2 Q. Yes, I understand that. I'm well aware of that. With regard to
3 this issue here concerning that UNPROFOR has adopted the Bosnian Serb
4 view of the siege of Sarajevo
5 this letter, what you were suggesting and what you believed at the time
6 was that UNPROFOR was, I use this term, which I think you'll understand,
7 was pitching for the Bosnian Serbs by virtue of the manner in which
8 General Rose was acting?
9 A. That's a pretty sharp characterisation. I think UNPROFOR was
10 taking a position of not only neutrality, but favouring the status quo,
11 which in fact I think would very much further the Bosnian Serb position,
12 in particular in their rejection of the Contact Group peace plan.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. Could you help us here on page -- it's
14 page 2 in the hard copy, and I'm not sure it's going to be page 2 in the
15 electronic copy, but I'll let the Court know in a moment. Yes, it is.
16 Q. If we could go down to paragraph number 3, you state:
17 "To justify in morally and legally flawed policy more
18 effectively, it would also be appropriate to delegitimize the status and
19 objectives of the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The
20 army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, therefore, must be
21 projected as being more or less on the same moral and legal level of the
22 'Bosnian Serbs.' For this reason, while certain UNPROFOR officials are
23 conspicuously silent in their criticism with respect to numerous
24 opportunities offered by the actions of the Bosnian Serbs, they have,"
25 going on to the next page, "been all too eager to find blame, real or
1 fabricated, with respect to the army of the Republic of Bosnia
3 A. Yes, I believe the matter was one of reprisal. The army of the
4 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina did not engage in any reprisals, while
5 in fact there were many documented events and would continue to be of
6 reprisals against UN forces by the Serbian military.
7 Q. And with regard to the certain UNPROFOR officials who were
8 conspicuously silent in their criticism here, are you attributing this
9 silence to the likes of General Rose?
10 A. I believe at that time I am.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.
12 Yes, Madam Bolton, I didn't hear you.
13 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, again this entire questioning with respect to
14 this document, the views of this witness with respect to other persons in
15 this case, General Rose, I don't see the relevance. Again it's his
16 opinion on --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: It might be something if somebody else penned the
18 document, but this is his document. These are his thoughts, his words,
19 and this is something that was published to the United Nations
20 Security Council. So I think we find ourselves in a slightly different
21 position than we've been in before. If my -- if my opponent is taking
22 the position that Mr. Sacirbey's opinions are of no consequence
23 whatsoever in any respect whether he penned the document or as held forth
24 here on a particular subject or not, then I have to reconsider my
25 examination. If that's the position that the Prosecution is taking.
1 That Mr. Sacirbey's opinions in terms of things that he says himself are
2 of no consequence, of no moment, and have no weight with regard to the
3 Chamber's determination of any of the matters that are before you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
5 MS. BOLTON: I never fall into the trap of speaking in absolutes.
6 I can indicate that with respect to the opinion -- my friend is asking a
7 question here, it seems to be, that calls for Mr. Sacirbey's personal
8 opinion. With respect to this calling for the witness's personal
9 opinion, my view, it's prohibited under the guide-lines that we've
10 adopted where opinions are generally limited to expert witnesses.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: To the extent that Mr. Sacirbey is the author of
12 this document, don't you see the question as seeking a clarification of
13 what he meant when he said -- when he wrote what he wrote?
14 MS. BOLTON: Not if it doesn't have some relevance beyond -- what
15 is the relevance of what he wrote?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know what the relevance is, but the point
17 of the matter is that your objection is based on the fact that your
18 opposite member is seeking opinion evidence from the witness. And I'm
19 saying if this is a document written by the witness himself, isn't that
20 seeking clarification of what he actually meant so that maybe at a later
21 stage he is able to say, Well, the man wrote this, and I asked him what
22 he meant by this, and this is what he said he meant.
23 MS. BOLTON: Well, I should have been clearer in my objection.
24 It's based part on the fact that he is calling for an opinion. But it's
25 also based on the fact that he is calling for an opinion on an issue that
1 has no relevance in and of itself.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, the Chamber has sort of ruled to admit these
3 documents simply because of the explanation that was given that they go
4 to notice to Mr. Perisic of what he knew and how he reacted to what he
5 knew. To that extent, we still would not agree with your objection on
6 that ground, but to the extent that what you call opinion evidence sounds
7 to me to be seeking a clarification of what the man meant when he wrote
8 what he wrote.
9 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH:
12 Q. With regard to what you wrote, Mr. Sacirbey, could you kindly
13 explain to the Chamber, first of all, with regard to the certain UNPROFOR
14 officials who were conspicuously silent in their criticism, who you were
15 referring to in your letter?
16 A. It would be fair to say that one of them would have been
17 General Rose; the other one would have been Mr. Akashi.
18 Q. You go on in your letter to say, and this will be on the next
19 page, sir. At the very bottom paragraph:
20 "Once again we wish to express our appreciation to the
21 overwhelming majority," and you continue. Thank you. You say here:
22 "Nonetheless, unless corrective steps are undertaken urgently,
23 the overall United Nations mandated actions within the Republic of Bosnia
24 and Herzegovina
25 of an unauthorised mandate. Sustaining the unacceptable status quo is
1 not the same as preserving the neutrality of UNPROFOR, in fact, quite the
2 opposite. Those responsible for acting outside," next page, please, "and
3 in contradiction to Security Council resolutions must be brought into
4 line or appropriately addressed.
5 "For our part, the government of the Republic of Bosnia
7 mandated efforts. Similarly, those who act in contravention to
8 Security Council mandates cannot continue to enjoy the privileges and
9 legal status associated with service in furtherance of United Nations
11 Now, my question here to you, sir, is, as I understand it, you
12 are asking in this letter for, not to put too blunt a point on it, for
13 the removal of General Rose, are you not?
14 A. Well, I think you read the paragraph yourself. The first point
15 is to bring him in line with the Security Council resolutions. I think
16 paragraph 4 here, and it's an extensive paragraph, addresses the
17 corrective measures we would like to see. To the extent that these
18 individuals or commanders are unable to live up to their mandate as
19 provided by the Security Council, then the Security Council should
20 consider taking further steps including removing them potentially, yes.
21 Q. You've used the plural of them, so I want to be fair here to you
22 and certainly don't want to misstate anything. When you say "them," am I
23 correct in my understanding that this letter includes not only
24 General Rose but also Mr. Akashi as being the individuals you are
25 concerned as being outside of acting appropriately?
1 A. The letter is oblique purposely because, of course, I cannot make
2 a direct determination as to who is responsible. But you are asking me
3 for my opinion before, and my personal opinion was with respect to
4 Mr. Akashi and General Rose. Whether upon further examination, the
5 Security Council would agree with that conclusion, and whether the facts
6 would actually bear that out, of course, remain to be seen.
7 Q. Understood.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: First of all, I'll like this marked as
9 Defendant's next in order.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Its admitted into evidence. May it please be
11 given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This becomes Exhibit D151.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH:
15 Q. And now, with regard to what you've just said which is a
16 relatively strong position, I take it that this is something that you
17 discussed with members of the Security Council informally and formally,
18 did you not? And by that I mean, you identified both General Rose and
19 Mr. Akashi as being individuals who, in your opinion, were engaged in a
20 rogue mandate?
21 A. Formally by identifying them, I'm not sure of that. Informally,
22 yes. I don't recall any situation where -- I certainly had references to
23 some direct elements of their performance and how they in fact undertook
24 their mandate. But again, I think this letter stands on its own, and it
25 is intentionally oblique as to naming individuals.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me, Mr. Sacirbey. My screen has stopped.
2 There's no typing, there's no movement of my screen. Half your answer
3 was not typed; the entire answer is not on the screen.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm suffering the same dilemma, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Might be a technical problem we are having
7 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Your Honour, we are entirely good at
8 this end.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Should we take a five, ten minute break? Or do
10 you want to hold -- whatever you want to do, Judge. I'm happy to do
11 whatever you want to do.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I want to make sure first that we can capture your
13 question and the answer to it, if that's possible. If not, maybe we
14 might ask you to re-state the question. But first of all we got to find
15 out what is the reason for this.
16 The stenographer says hers is working properly, so at least we've
17 got the record with her, but we don't have it here.
18 Yes, Madam Bolton
19 MS. BOLTON: I have the same experience, this monitor is working,
20 and this monitor is not working. I don't know why that would be.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, the one that is working is the one that we up
22 here -- or at least me who is computer illiterate. I use that for
23 exhibits, not for transcript, because otherwise I'm not able to pull out
24 my exhibits on my own side.
25 MS. BOLTON: I was going to say that's the same problem I have.
1 I can't watch the witness and the exhibit and follow the transcript. So
2 I would ask that we correct this problem before we continue.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Ms. Bolton and I are in agreement.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, fine. We take the agreement between the two
5 parties that this problem be resolved, and given the length of time we've
6 been sitting, I think we might take the break for the day and come back
7 tomorrow at that point in time in the afternoon at quarter past 2.00.
8 Let me just make sure that Mr. Sacirbey hears me.
9 Mr. Sacirbey, we have a technical problem. It's late in the day.
10 We are going to take a break and come back tomorrow in the afternoon
11 again, morning for you. The warning stands, no discussions until you are
12 excused from the witness-stand.
13 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour. Understood.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Court adjourned.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.29 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of
17 July, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.