Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8098

 1                           Tuesday, 14 July, 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  And good morning to everybody in New York.

 7             Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

10     everybody in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

11     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have appearances for

13     the day starting with the Prosecution, please.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Good afternoon.  Carmela Javier, Lorna Bolton,

15     Evangelos Thomas.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

17             And for the Defence.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon.  Daniela Tasic, Chad Mair,

19     Kate Marshall, Tina Drolec, Novak Lukic, and Gregor Guy-Smith.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

21             Mr. Sacirbey, again, let's go through the ritual, still bound

22     which the declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell

23     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

24             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, it's understood.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Sacirbey.

Page 8099

 1             Mr. Guy-Smith.

 2                           WITNESS:  MUHAMED SACIRBEY [Resumed]

 3                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:  [Continued]

 5        Q.   We had left off yesterday discussing whether or not you had

 6     formally made mention of your criticism of Mr. Akashi and General Rose.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Can we have 1D03-0796 up on the screen, which

 8     would be tab number 43.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have that, Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:

11        Q.   This is a letter, if I'm not mistaken, it was written on the 25th

12     of October, 1994.  Its distribution is general.  And by that I understand

13     that this is a letter that was distributed to the General Assembly and to

14     the Security Council; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And turning to the letter itself, if we could, as I understand

17     this letter --

18        A.   Yes, I have that.

19        Q.   As I understand this letter, this is a letter that came from

20     representative parliamentary parties of the assembly of the Republic of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina which you forwarded in your capacity as the ambassador

22     of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

23        A.   That is correct.

24        Q.   If we could go to paragraph 2 of the letter itself.  In

25     paragraph 2 the letter states:

Page 8100

 1             "In this respect, the conduct of Lieutenant-General

 2     Sir Michael Rose commander of the United Nations protected force

 3     [UNPROFOR) in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in diverting the attention and

 4     resolve of the free world from punishing criminal acts and fascism to

 5     peripheral issues is unacceptable."  Correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And this is a position that you adopted in your capacity as

 8     ambassador; true?

 9        A.   Well, this letter is forwarded by the leadership of, I believe,

10     if not all most of the political parties in the parliament at that time.

11        Q.   I appreciate that.

12        A.   I was not asked to adopt it; I was only asked to pass it on.

13        Q.   At this point I'm saying in your capacity as the ambassador for

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina, you adopted the assertions made in this letter, did

15     you not?  This is not something that you were trying to shy away from, is

16     it?

17        A.   If you are asking me, did I personally agree and did I espouse

18     some of these views at the representative of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

19     answer is yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21        A.   But in order to forward this letter, I did not have to agree or

22     disagree with the assertions made therein.

23        Q.   That's understood.  Going to the last paragraph of the first page

24     it says:

25             "We therefore request that the Lieutenant-General

Page 8101

 1     Sir Michael Rose relinquish his current post and duties.  We request an

 2     objective and impartial commander who would carry out the implementation

 3     of United Nations resolutions on the ground, an individual," next page,

 4     please, "who would serve legitimate United Nations interests, rather than

 5     the interests of his/her national government."

 6             And then it's signed by, as I understand it, a number of

 7     representative parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Did you share the opinion

 8     and did you espouse the opinion in your capacity as ambassador for

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina that Lieutenant-General Sir Michael Rose was involved

10     in operating for the interests of his national government as opposed to

11     -- [overlapping speakers]... the interests of the United Nations.

12        A.   In that sense you mean the United Kingdom?

13        Q.   That's correct.

14        A.   Not necessarily.  I believe -- I believe General Rose can be

15     characterised in terms of his behaviour in many ways.  One of them is

16     potentially that at times he gave greater due consideration to the

17     interest of his national government than, let's say, the United Nations.

18     But I do not believe that that was in fact the particular issue that was

19     at stake here or the one that was really being addressed, as I think I

20     mentioned yesterday.

21        Q.   Excuse me, I'm just trying to understand the language here, which

22     is the language at the end of the paragraph says:

23             "... an individual who would serve legitimate United Nations

24     interests rather than the interest of his/her national government."

25             That seems to be relatively focused language, does it not?

Page 8102

 1        A.   It sure does.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much.

 3        A.   But you asked me did I share this view personally.

 4        Q.   Yes.  No, I asked you whether you shared the view in your

 5     capacity as ambassador.

 6        A.   As I said I don't have to share the view in order --

 7        Q.   That is not my question, Mr. Sacirbey.  Mr. Sacirbey, my question

 8     is not whether you have to or do not have it; that I appreciate.  My

 9     question is, Did you?

10        A.   As best to some degree but really not to the degree stated in

11     this letter.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, can I have this marked as Defendant's

13     next in order.

14             Can we please have on the screen --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

16     given an exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

18     Exhibit D152.  Thank you.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Next could we have 1D03-4599.  Mr. Registrar,

20     that will be document number 12 in the first packet that was provided to

21     you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:

24        Q.   Just to make sure that we are on the same page, I trust you are

25     looking at "New York Times" article dated November 5 1994, entitled arms

Page 8103

 1     trafficking to Bosnia goes on despite embargo, by Roger Cohen.

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   First of all, once again this is a periodical that I believe you

 4     are familiar with, the "New York Times."

 5        A.   Yes, I am.

 6        Q.   And with regard to this specific article concerning the

 7     trafficking of arms to Bosnia on November of 1994, is this an article

 8     that you are familiar with?

 9        A.   Yes, I am.

10        Q.   Looking at paragraph number 1 it states:

11             "...  Even as United Nations discusses lifting the arms embargo

12     on Bosnia and Herzegovina, the embargo appears to have become largely a

13     fiction openly flouted."  Right?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   With regard to the matter of discussing lifting the arms embargo,

16     one of your primary focuses as the ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina was

17     to get the embargo lifted, was it not?  I understand you had many others?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   Okay.  And with regard to November of 1994, at this point I take

20     it that you were obtaining some traction in your diplomatic efforts in

21     regards to being able to openly obtain weapons of war.  You were

22     beginning to get a shift in the tide.

23        A.   That is correct.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me for two minutes, Mr. Sacirbey, I'm

25     having a slight technical problem, but I'll be okay in a minute, I think.

Page 8104

 1     We're fine.

 2        Q.   Now, I'd like to, for a moment, if I could, perhaps, discuss your

 3     function as a diplomat, and specifically as ambassador for

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina with regard to the particular issue of weapons and

 5     war.  And I'd like to ask you to comment on the following, if you could:

 6             "Diplomacy is often popularly thought of as the peaceful

 7     alternative to violence, but in fact, diplomacy serves to prepare as

 8     often as to avoid war.  It is an important part of waging war.  It often

 9     makes the difference in who wins and nearly always codifies war's

10     results.  Again, diplomacy is the verbal representation of compelling

11     international realities, and military force is one of those realities."

12             Would you agree with that, sir?

13        A.   Not in all, but in part.  I certainly was not in Bosnian

14     diplomacy when the war started out, so to talk of preparation for war was

15     beyond my experience.  But I certainly did find that in fact diplomacy

16     did legitimize, codify as you've used the word, the consequences of war,

17     and in my opinion at times the consequences of genocide.  And I think

18     that was one of unfortunate results of what we have come to call

19     diplomacy and the Dayton Accords in Bosnia.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to go back to the article that we were

21     looking at.  And if we could go to page 2 of the article, which is

22     discussing the effects of increase in arms.  It says:

23             "The effect of this increase in arms available to the Bosnian

24     Muslim and allied Bosnian Croat forces has been evident in the last week

25     in two successful offensives against the long-dominant Bosnian Serbs.

Page 8105

 1     The first offensive burst through Serbian lines east of Bihac in the

 2     north-west; the second resulted in the capture of the town of Kupres in

 3     the west central part of the country."

 4             Now, with regard to those particular battles, those are battles

 5     that you were aware of, were you not?

 6        A.   Yes, I was.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And with regard to battles in general, going to the summer

 8     of 1994, there was a relatively strong offensive in June, was there not?

 9        A.   I'm sorry, in June of what year?  I didn't hear you,

10     Mr. Guy-Smith.

11        Q.   1994.  1994.

12        A.   I'm not aware of an offensive in June 1994.

13        Q.   Very well.  Moving to the next page, I'm not sure it's the same

14     in terms of e-court, but it would be the bottom paragraph on page 3 where

15     it says:

16             "Apart from east Europe, the other major source of arms in

17     trafficking valued at about $500 million in the last two years appears to

18     have been Muslim countries.  Mr. Beaver and other analysts estimated that

19     Iran alone had provided at least 1500 tons of ammunition that reached

20     Bosnia through Croatia."

21             Is that figure there, the figure of 1500 tons of ammunition, a

22     figure that you were aware of whilst you were --

23        A.   No, it's not.

24        Q.   Okay.

25        A.   I just don't have personal knowledge of these numbers.

Page 8106

 1        Q.   Very well.  Do you have any reason to dispute these numbers?

 2        A.   No.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I have no knowledge one way or the

 5     other.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Sacirbey, sorry.

 7             Madam Bolton.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  In my view it's not an appropriate question, and he

 9     doesn't have reason to dispute it.  He either knows it or he doesn't know

10     it.  He said he doesn't know it.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  He said he doesn't have personal knowledge.  If

12     he has other kinds of knowledge, then he may have a reason to dispute it,

13     he may not.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you have any other kinds of reasons to know

15     about these figures, Mr. Sacirbey?

16             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Not beyond what I've really seen in

17     general media reports.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:

19        Q.   Let's just be clear about this, apart from your general media

20     reports, did you not receive what we've termed on-the-ground information

21     concerning what assets your army actually had?

22        A.   The only reports I would receive is what was necessary for

23     defence, particularly anti-tank weapons.  The value of such assets, the

24     amount of such assets, and where they may have been designated is not

25     something that was linked to my duties.

Page 8107

 1        Q.   Well, with regard to the value of such assets, you've told us

 2     that you had some meetings at least with some Russian delegates in which

 3     there was a discussion about the purchase of various armaments.  Now, my

 4     question to you is, Did you discuss a price, then?

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, could I have a page references for that

 6     discussion from my friend.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're looking at looking at the --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I don't think --

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Sacirbey, just hold on.  We are looking at a

11     page on the screen, Madam, which -- whose last paragraph starts with

12     "apart from East Europe."

13             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, but was there a specific reference to some

14     meetings at -- with Russian delegates, which there was a discussion of

15     the purchase of various armaments?

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I'm not mistaken, and I think Mr. Sacirbey

17     confirmed this yesterday in passing and we will get to it, you had

18     meetings with delegates from --

19             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, I'm --

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.  You had meetings from delegates who

21     were from Russia, and there was a discussion about --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Guy-Smith, you can't ignore your

23     learned friend who is on her feet.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry.  I am sorry.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  Your learned friend doesn't understand how

Page 8108

 1     you link those meetings with this paragraph.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The way that I link the meetings with the

 3     paragraph is because, as you said, it's eastern Europe.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  What I'm asking my friend to do, Your Honour, is --

 5     in accordance with the guide-lines, is that not to para-phrase what a

 6     witness has said, but to actually put to them what they said previously

 7     when called been to do so.  So this is just part of the evidence from

 8     yesterday that I don't recall if it was from yesterday, and I'm simply

 9     asking my friend to tell me where it appears in the transcript so I can

10     be sure he is being accurate in his wording of the question.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  That's the problem.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Fair enough, and we'll -- we will attend to that.

13             Now, I'll move on for a second until we pull up the specific page

14     reference here.

15             I move the admission of this particular document at this time.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

17     please be given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes

19     Exhibit D153.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:

22        Q.   During your time as an ambassador, you were concerned about the

23     fact that UNPROFOR was delivering fuel to Bosnian Serbs; correct?

24        A.   I believe so, but I don't recall the specifics of that.

25        Q.   Would it refresh your recollection if I were to include in your

Page 8109

 1     concern that you had been told that the reason that UNPROFOR was

 2     delivering such fuel was to engage in clearing the roads of snow.  And

 3     you had taken the position that this is an "example of how UNPROFOR's

 4     resources are pruned to serve the interests of a war machine."

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Whose war machine?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I think I remember the reference.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  That would be the Serbian war machine,

 8     Your Honour.

 9        Q.   If I'm not mistaken; correct?

10        A.   I, again, did not hear you on that last point.

11        Q.   That would have been, as you put it, the Serbian war machine,

12     because His Honour asked which war machine.

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   Apart from -- this is something that you actually raised in front

15     of the Security Council, did you not?

16        A.   This is a point I haven't, frankly, revisited for many years so

17     I'm trying to recollect.  I believe I did, but I just, again, I have not

18     had the opportunity to refresh my memory for a long time on this point.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have 1D03-0648, tab 34, page 4.

20        Q.   I don't know if you have that yet, sir.  Oh, you do, good.

21        A.   Yes, I do, I believe.  We are talking about a 9 November 1994

22     Security Council --

23        Q.   Correct.  If you look at the second column it says:

24             "Today I was informed that the Serbians will in fact be given

25     more fuel by UNPROFOR, in order, ostensibly, to clear the roads of snow.

Page 8110

 1     This is but one example of how UNPROFOR's resources are pruned to serve

 2     the interests of a war machine."

 3             Does that --

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   Does that refresh your recollection with regard to your complaint

 6     in this regard -- by that I mean that UNPROFOR was supplying fuel to the

 7     Bosnian Serbs?

 8        A.   Again, not being particularly fresh on the circumstances here,

 9     but these are obviously my words and I -- my memory is adequately

10     refreshed, at least as to that point.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we see the first page of this document.  I see

12     this first page talks of a letter dated 3rd November, 1994, from the

13     permanent representative from Pakistan to the United Nations addressed to

14     the president of the Security Council.  Is that what is contained, what

15     you are referring to or -- I'm trying to see whether what was being

16     quoted --

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Mr. Sacirbey made a speech at that time, and I'm

18     using this solely for the purposes of refreshing his recollection.  I

19     don't intend on introducing this as an exhibit.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that part of his speech that you quoted to him?

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, it is.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]... Thank you.  You may

23     proceed.  You are not tendering this?

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, I'm not.

25             If we could now have 1D03-4607, which would be tab 14 in the

Page 8111

 1     original group of articles.

 2        Q.   Do you have a copy of that, Mr. Sacirbey?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   And that's an article entitled "US looks away as Iran arms

 5     Bosnia."  Correct?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   Looking at paragraph 1, it states:

 8             "'The Clinton Administration has chosen to ignore weapons

 9     shipments from Iran to the Muslim-led Bosnian government that in the last

10     year have added considerably to Bosnian's military fire-power,' American

11     officials said today.  'They said that the United States has ample

12     evidence of the Iranian deliveries, which are in violation of the

13     United Nations embargo that bans arms shipments to all combatants in the

14     Bosnian civil war, but they said the Administration had not tried in any

15     way to cut off the flow.  The Administration said last fall that it would

16     no longer take part in efforts to enforce the embargo on shipments to the

17     Bosnians.'"

18             Now, you told us yesterday that you had a conversation with

19     Mr. Holbrooke, my question to you is, was the conversation that you had

20     with Mr. Holbrooke in the fall of 1994 with regard to this particular

21     matter, which is that there would not be any enforcement of the embargo

22     by the United States, but there also would be, if I understood your

23     testimony correctly, willing to assist in this regard, in getting you

24     arms?

25        A.   I'm not sure I understood the last part of your question, but I

Page 8112

 1     am very clear that we were told by Ambassador Holbrooke that in exchange

 2     for not pressing or the lifting of the arms embargo in the US Congress.

 3     In fact, weapons would be allowed to flow from any source, and again

 4     citing his words exactly, including Iran.  Whether that meant the

 5     United States itself would directly participate, if that's what your

 6     question is, I'm not sure I'm in a position to respond to that.

 7        Q.   When you say you are not in a position to respond to that, are

 8     you asserting any kind of privilege, or are you saying that you don't

 9     know?

10        A.   I don't have personal knowledge directly.

11        Q.   When you say you don't have personal knowledge directly, I take

12     it what you are telling us is that you did not hear from the horse's

13     mouth, in this sense, Ambassador Holbrooke, that the United States would

14     be actively assisting in supplying you with weapons; correct?

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   Had you --

17        A.   That is correct.

18        Q.   Had you obtained such information from other sources?

19        A.   Again wishing to be entirely clear on this point, there were

20     reasons to believe that in fact there were other -- there was other

21     assistance, yes.

22        Q.   Well, unfortunately, your attempt to be clear has left me

23     somewhat confused, so I need to pursue this a bit.

24             You say there was reason to believe that in fact there was other

25     assistance.  Could you kindly explain to the Chamber what you mean by

Page 8113

 1     that statement, that there was reason to believe that in fact there was

 2     other assistance.

 3        A.   As I believe you are aware, by 1995 there were various types of

 4     military institutions, private or quasi-private that were engaged in

 5     providing training and assistance, particularly in Croatia.  Whether that

 6     included anything more tangible beyond strategic assistance, I'm not

 7     sure, nor would I have any reason to have been directly privy to such

 8     information.

 9        Q.   With regard to what you've just said, you said there were various

10     types of military institutions, private or quasi-private.  I'm not sure

11     that I am understanding what you are saying here.  And perhaps, once

12     again, you can be of some assistance to the Chamber in this regard.  When

13     you're talking about military institutions, are you referring to military

14     institutions of states, or are you referring to some kind of military

15     institution, for example, a private institution such as Blackwater?

16        A.   The nature of such institutions may have been very different than

17     Blackwater which served mainly, as I understand it, in the Iraq war, had

18     serves as a form of private contract that's providing security.  The

19     institutions that I'm familiar with would have had to have received

20     approval from the US government, the Pentagon, and the State Department,

21     but in fact were not, at least as far as I am aware of, an institution of

22     the US government, but in fact operated as private corporations.  So the

23     comparison to Backwater is only somewhat appropriate here in the sense

24     that they were in fact private enterprises, as I understand them.  To

25     what extent they were linked to governments, I'm not certain.

Page 8114

 1        Q.   You indicate in your last answer:

 2             "The institutions I'm familiar with would have had to receive

 3     approval from the US government, the Pentagon, and the State Department."

 4             So with regard to the institutions that you are familiar with,

 5     could you please identify for the Chamber those institutions that you are

 6     familiar with, that you state would have to have received approval from

 7     the US government, the Pentagon, or the State Department?

 8        A.   To give you the context of how I'm familiar with these

 9     institutions, at least --

10        Q.   I am sorry, I'm asking you for you to -- I'm asking for you to

11     answer the question now, as opposed to jump around it.  And I'm asking

12     you to tell us --

13        A.   I'm not --

14        Q.   To identify the institutions, sir.

15        A.   I must, again, emphasise that I would need to have my memory

16     refreshed as to the actual name, but my opinion is that these

17     institutions were cited even in the media, so I'm sure would not be very

18     difficult to refresh my memory.

19        Q.   Well, I'm not in a position here to refresh your memory, and I'm

20     really following --

21        A.   Okay.

22        Q.   -- your lead here, because this is something that you have

23     brought up to us.

24        A.   Okay.

25        Q.   Which is that there were some private institutions, from what I

Page 8115

 1     understand your answer, had some form of government sanction that you

 2     were aware of.

 3        A.   That is correct.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And could you --

 5        A.   As to the names, I'm sorry, I just don't recall the name.

 6        Q.   And who did you have -- did you have conversations with any of

 7     your colleagues at the United Nations concerning this matter, and by

 8     colleagues, I'm not talking about your own delegation, but other

 9     diplomats of other member states?

10        A.   Other than Croatia, probably not.  And the United States.

11        Q.   Very well.  If we could go back to the article, I believe we were

12     on page -- I think it's on page 2.  And going down to the -- the

13     paragraph that starts with "Mr. Clinton":

14             It says:  "Mr. Clinton had said it would be unwise for the

15     United States to flout the United Nations resolution.  But today his top

16     aides noted carefully that nothing in the resolution requires the United

17     States to report violations."

18             Now, with regard to the issue of 713 and the reporting of

19     violations, was the topic a matter of common conversation either formally

20     or informally at the United Nations, that there was no necessity to

21     report violations of the embargo by member states?

22        A.   By the US government you mean?

23        Q.   No, by member states.

24        A.   By the United States?

25        Q.   No, by member states.

Page 8116

 1        A.   Only in the context of one state here, United States.

 2        Q.   So with regard to the balance of the member states, there was no

 3     discussion as to whether or not any other member states would have a duty

 4     under 713 to report violations of the embargo.

 5        A.   No, there were such discussions.  No, there were such discussions

 6     involving other states as well.

 7        Q.   Okay, and with regard to the discussions involving other states,

 8     be they informal or formal, am I accurate in my assumption that it was

 9     incumbent upon member states to inform the United Nations,

10     General Assembly, or Security Council, or -- of violations of the

11     embargo?

12        A.   I do not believe such an international legal obligation existed.

13        Q.   Okay.  Was it a matter that was discussed as being an important

14     component part independent of whether or not it was deemed to be a legal

15     obligation in terms of making sure there was not a flow of arms and

16     weapons?  By that I'm referring to a reporting requirement.

17        A.   [Overlapping speakers]... As a practical consideration, yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And if we could go to the last paragraph in that

19     document.  It states:

20             "After congress," that's, I'm assuming, the United States

21     Congress -- "passed legislation that would have cut off all money for

22     enforcing the embargo by November 15th, the Administration directed the

23     United States military to stop enforcing the prohibition."

24             Now, is this something that you were made aware of in your

25     capacity as ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina, that money had been cut

Page 8117

 1     off from forcing --

 2        A.   I was aware of this.

 3        Q.   Okay.  There are two parts here, one is that money was cut off

 4     for enforcing the embargo.  And the other part is that the United States

 5     Administration had directed the military to stop enforcing the embargo.

 6     You were aware of both of those things; correct?

 7        A.   That is correct.

 8        Q.   It goes on to say:

 9             "Even that step angered Britain, France, other countries whose

10     farces are among the United Nations peacekeepers in Bosnia and who have

11     warned that any new flow of arms to either side in the war will only make

12     future battles more violent."

13             Now, were you privy to at the United Nations, either in the

14     hallways informally or formally at the General Assembly or the

15     Security Council, this aspect of the debate, which is that the

16     United States had made a determination that it was no longer going to, at

17     least surreptitiously, support the flow of arms into your country, but

18     rather was going to openly take the position that it was not going to

19     enforce the embargo, and Britain and France, among other member states,

20     were of a different mind?

21        A.   I think the debate ranged from the paragraph that you just read

22     to the last paragraph in this article, which stresses, of course, the

23     still vast imbalance in the military weight of, if you would, the

24     combatants.

25        Q.   I see.

Page 8118

 1        A.   And I think in that context, that was a constant point of debate

 2     and discussion.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  Could I have that marked as

 4     Defendant's next in order.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 6     given an exhibit number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes Exhibit

 8     D154.  Thank you.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have 1D0 -- 1D00-4539 up on the

10     screen, which would be tab 93, Mr. Registrar, in your new binder.

11        Q.   I don't know if you had a chance to -- to look at the document.

12     Good.

13             I'd like to, after you've had a chance to take a look at the

14     first page, and for purposes of --

15        A.   I believe this is an UNPROFOR -- of 2 July 1995.

16        Q.   That's correct.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And for purposes of clarification, so that the

18     Chamber is aware, a certain part of this document is already in evidence

19     as Defendant's 24.

20        Q.   What I'd like you to do is take a look at page 1, if you would

21     initially, and going to -- I apologise, Mr. Registrar.  And looking at

22     the -- go down to the 1, 2, 3, the fourth bullet point, it says:

23             "UNPROFOR relations with the Bosnian government are

24     deteriorating; freedom of movement is restricted."

25             Were you made aware by your president or your military that the

Page 8119

 1     Bosnian army, and by that I mean the BiH Army was restricting the freedom

 2     of movement of UNPROFOR during this time.

 3        A.   No, in fact, I was present on several situations where UNPROFOR

 4     and the Bosnian government and military had to share the same roads.  The

 5     roads that were to be secured through Serbian control areas in fact were

 6     no longer made available to UNPROFOR.  So UNPROFOR in fact would use the

 7     road, the only connection that the Bosnian government maintained, which

 8     was over Mount Igman.

 9        Q.   Okay.  If we could turn to page 4, please, which discusses this

10     particular bullet point.  If we could go to the section that starts

11     off -- it's in the bottom part of the page, Mr. Registrar.

12             It says:  "UNPROFOR relations" --

13        A.   Page 4?

14        Q.   Yes.  If we could scroll down.

15             It says:

16             "UNPROFOR relations with the Bosnian government deteriorating.

17     UNPROFOR's relations with the Bosnian government seems to be getting

18     worse.  The Bosnians claim that UNPROFOR is doing nothing to help Bosnia

19     or to implement its mandate; that UNPROFOR is trying to ensure that the

20     Reserve Force is ineffectual; and that UNPROFOR is doing nothing to

21     retrieve the large amount of (principally French) military equipment

22     still held by the Serbs, and being used by the Serbs to attack the

23     Bosnians.  The situation seems to have got worse following a number of

24     statements from senior Bosnian politicians."  The first one being on

25     Monday June 26th.  Attributed to Prime Minister Silajdzic, stating:

Page 8120

 1             "The United Nations organisation is an accomplice in this

 2     genocide against Bosnia and its people, because it does not protect

 3     Bosnia."

 4             The next on the 27th of June, Foreign Minister Sacirbegovic,

 5     which I believe is you, sir, stated that:

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   UNPROFOR's presence is no longer in the interests of Bosnia's

 8     civilians or government, but the interests of certain western powers.  We

 9     do have a choice, which is clearly to tell the international community

10     that we no longer consent to the presence of UNPROFOR in our country.

11             Is that a statement that you made, sir?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   And is that a statement that you made with relation to -- I'm

14     using the term broadly for the moment -- with relation to your

15     displeasure in the manner in which UNPROFOR was following its mandate?

16        A.   I think at this point in time we are not talking about pleasure,

17     approval or disapproval, as much as we are talking about the fact that

18     UNPROFOR was in effect powerless to address its most -- the most

19     important elements of its mandate.  In fact was sharing resources with

20     the Bosnian government, everything from roads to even things like food

21     and medicine.  And obviously at that point in time had become in effect a

22     third consideration in the conflict.  What I mean by that is that when

23     issues were to be considered in terms of more effective measures to bring

24     about an end to the conflict or to confront those who might be besieging

25     Sarajevo or other enclaves, the safety of UNPROFOR personnel was always a

Page 8121

 1     primary concern and one to which frequently the population of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina and of course the country itself became secondary.

 3        Q.   Well --

 4        A.   So in this sense --

 5        Q.   Excuse me.  So let me ask you a question based upon what you've

 6     just said --

 7             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  My friend cut off the witness.  He was answering the

10     question responsively, I think, and he hadn't finished.  And I think he

11     ought to be given the opportunity to finish.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Fine.  Fine.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do want to finish up, Mr. Sacirbey.

14             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour.

15             Just to be very brief, I think the point was, is that the UN

16     forces, themselves, had in fact become threatened.  And in defending

17     themselves, particularly against the Serbian forces, it was the

18     considerations of their security that sometimes took primacy over their

19     mandate in defending the civilian population or even providing adequate

20     humanitarian assistance to the civilian population.  So in this way, when

21     we addressed what means might be necessary to bring about peace, to bring

22     about an end to the conflict, too frequently the issue was, Well, what

23     are the consequences for the UN personnel on the ground?  Would there in

24     fact be reprisals, and should those reprisals be considered in setting

25     forth strategy in the implementation of UN mandates?

Page 8122

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 2        Q.   Thank you for that answer, Mr. Sacirbey.  Please do correct me if

 3     I'm wrong; with regard to the first person who died in Srebrenica, that

 4     was an UNPROFOR soldier who was killed by a member of the BiH Army.

 5     Correct?

 6        A.   I am aware that in fact a Dutch soldier was killed, and it seems

 7     that it was a Bosnian army or a Bosnian individual.  But in fact, as I

 8     understand it, the investigation was never concluded, since Srebrenica

 9     fell before such investigation could be concluded.

10        Q.   I see.  As a matter of fact, you know it was the BiH army, and

11     you engaged in diplomatic intervention with the Dutch foreign ministry

12     and the Dutch Department of Defence over this particular issue, including

13     attending the funeral of this young soldier; correct?

14        A.   I did not attend the funeral unfortunately, and I would have.  I

15     would like to pay respect to all those who came to Bosnia whatever the

16     results of their actions may have been.  But nonetheless, I did in fact

17     certainly engage with the Dutch government and did provide my

18     condolences.  And did in fact even provide whatever consideration may

19     have been appropriate at the time in view of the possibility that such

20     Dutch soldier may have been killed by those defenders of Srebrenica.

21        Q.   With regard to a question I'd asked you earlier, you had

22     indicated that you were not aware of a June offensive in 1994.  You most

23     assuredly are aware of a June offensive in 1995, are you not?  And by a

24     June offensive I mean a June offensive by the Bosnia-Herzegovina army.

25        A.   Yes, I am.  If you would like to be more specific around which

Page 8123

 1     town, and I believe you are speaking of Sarajevo here.

 2        Q.   Well, I'm starting with --

 3        A.   There was certainly an effort to -- the siege of Sarajevo, and

 4     that's correct.

 5        Q.   With regard to Sarajevo, at that time it was a fact, was it not,

 6     that the Bosnian army placed their mortars wherever they wanted,

 7     including close to the Kosevo hospital and the PTT building?

 8        A.   That I'm unaware of.

 9        Q.   I see.  Were you aware of the view that had been espoused by some

10     individuals in UNPROFOR that a gentleman by the name of Muratovic -- do

11     you know who he is?  Morotovic or Muratovic?

12        A.   If you are speaking of Mr. Hasan Muratovic.

13        Q.   Yes.

14        A.   Yes, I am aware of who he is.

15        Q.   Could you identify him, please.  Who is he?

16        A.   At that time he was the minister in the government of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina responsible for United Nations affairs.

18        Q.   Okay.

19        A.   That is dealing with the UN forces on the ground.

20        Q.   Are you aware of the fact that there was a concern at that time,

21     that this gentleman and the Bosnia-Herzegovina army were attempting to

22     force UNPROFOR into a situation where the daily use of the road from

23     Mount Igman would provoke a Bosnian Serb response?

24        A.   I'm not aware of such an effort, no.  In fact --

25        Q.   Was that a --

Page 8124

 1        A.   We were quite troubled by the fact --

 2        Q.   If you are not aware of it, you are not aware of it.

 3        A.   May I answer, or would you -- no, but I -- you are speaking of

 4     the Mount Igman road, and it did provide us with some real issues because

 5     in fact the road was constantly under used during the evening which is

 6     considered the safest time to travel.  And in fact the UN forces then

 7     only felt safe to travel at night.  And clearly there were numerous times

 8     when the road in fact was not useable by all the traffic that in fact

 9     wanted to use it, including Bosnian, military, and/or government traffic.

10        Q.   When you say that the UN forces then only felt safe to travel at

11     night, as a matter of fact there were a variety of agreements that were

12     put forth with regard to the use of that particular road.  And by virtue

13     of the fact we received this information in closed session, I'm going to

14     ask you whether or not you are aware of the fact there being an agreement

15     between members of UNPROFOR and the BiH army with regard to the use of

16     this road?

17        A.   I'm having trouble understanding, I think, the key word in your

18     question.  Could you please repeat it.

19        Q.   The key word being agreement.

20        A.   No, there was -- can you just repeat the question.  [Overlapping

21     speakers] ... sometimes you say in the microphone.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I mention --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please not overlap.  The

24     interpreters are unable to follow.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  [Previous translation continues]... can't go any

Page 8125

 1     further than that.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters are complaining.  They are saying

 3     you are overlapping, and they can't follow you, number one.

 4             Number two, maybe it might help at this stage just to ask -- at

 5     this stage perhaps it might be helpful just to caution both counsel and

 6     witness to be brief in both their questions and answers.  It's very

 7     difficult to follow what you gentlemen are talking about, and there is

 8     quite often a straying off either from the question or from the answer.

 9     If you could ask very pointed questions and give very pointed answers, we

10     might perhaps make better progress.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:

12        Q.   Were you aware of there being an agreement between UNPROFOR and

13     the BiH army for the use of Mount Igman road?

14        A.   I was aware of some agreement, yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Returning to the document that we were referring to

16     before.  Continuing:

17             "In a letter to the Security Council dated Wednesday, 28 June, he

18     implied that consent might be withdrawn if UNPROFOR and the reserve

19     force, did not become more" -- and I'm sorry, I can't read the word.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  More vigorous.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, very much, Your Honour.

22        Q.   "... vigorous in the Prosecution of the UN mandate."

23             Is that a position that you took?

24        A.   Yes, I think that's a fair view.

25        Q.   And on the 29th of June, the gentleman who you previously

Page 8126

 1     identified, Mr. Muratovic stated:

 2             "The Bosnian government wanted," and it says, "more dealings with

 3     SRSG Akashi, 'who is dead for us.'"

 4             I take it that there is a word missing here.  It should be "no

 5     more dealings."  If we could go back a page.

 6        A.   I can actually see that word in my draft.

 7        Q.   Okay, very good.  Excellent.

 8             And on Friday the 30th of June, going back to the next page:

 9             "... the mayor of Sarajevo hinted at retaliation against UNPROFOR

10     if it did nothing to help the city."

11             Is this something that you were aware of, that the mayor of

12     Sarajevo had said that there was going to be retaliation against

13     UNPROFOR?

14        A.   No, I was not aware at this point.

15        Q.   It goes on to say UNPROFOR's freedom of movement is blocked.  Not

16     so much in the city itself, as on the routes in Sector South west that

17     lead to Igman road.  This has the effect of delaying convoys over

18     Mount Igman by up to a day, and sometimes more.  Inside the city,

19     UNPROFOR no longer has access to hospitals, or to other locations of

20     special interest."

21             In your capacity as ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina, whilst you

22     were at the United Nations, were you made aware of the fact that

23     UNPROFOR's access had been restricted and blocked as mentioned in this

24     telex?

25        A.   No, in fact I was foreign minister at the time.  And second of

Page 8127

 1     all, as you can see by the letter, it doesn't speak who it's blocked by.

 2     And I would several times witness when I was travelling in and out of

 3     Sarajevo of UNPROFOR forces in fact using that road and having priority

 4     over both my personal traffic, that is government traffic, as well as in

 5     fact Bosnian military traffic.

 6        Q.   First of all, I would move the admission of pages 4 and 5.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, reference was also made to the first page,

 8     and it seems --

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's already been admitted.

10             MS. BOLTON:  Shouldn't we do what we did with the previous

11     exhibits then, and make the whole thing one exhibit?

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.  If that works better, let's do that.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what exhibit number was the --

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That was D24.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And, Mr. Registrar, would you make pages 4 and 5

16     part of Exhibit D24.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, pages 4 and 5 become part of

18     Exhibit D24.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, could Mr. Registrar --

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I've just been alerted to something, which is

22     page 1, apparently, is not in; it's only page 3.  So I think it would be

23     appropriate as well as Ms. Bolton suggested to put page 1 in so that we

24     have the document identified.

25             MS. BOLTON:  That leaves out only page 2.  I'd ask that it be

Page 8128

 1     included as well so the whole context of the document is before the

 2     Chamber.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's fine by me.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.  Go ahead.

 5             Go ahead, Mr. Registrar.  Admit the entire document as

 6     Exhibit 24.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.  The entire document is

 8     admitted as Exhibit D24.  Thank you.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:

10        Q.   I want to go back for just a brief moment to the answer you just

11     gave, with regard to your assertion that it does not say who it's blocked

12     by.  With regard to the sentence "inside the city, UNPROFOR no longer has

13     access to hospitals or to other locations of special interest," you are

14     not contending, are you, that at that time there were Bosnian Serb forces

15     inside of Sarajevo that were blocking access to hospitals?  Am I correct?

16        A.   Frankly, I am not aware why in fact access was not being given to

17     hospitals, nor am I contending, as you put it, that Bosnian Serbs were

18     blocking, no.

19        Q.   As a matter of fact, that part of Sarajevo was under the control

20     of the Bosnian army, was it not?  By that part of Sarajevo I'm referring

21     to that area where there were hospitals.

22        A.   Yes, I believe so.

23        Q.   And the Bosnian army that I'm referring to is the BiH army, just

24     so we are clear, in that regard.

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 8129

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'd like to turn your attention now to a number

 3     of reports, and if you could go to tab 85.  I'm sorry, yes, tab 85, which

 4     is 65 ter 6615.  This is a report of the Secretary-General dated 26

 5     March, 1993.

 6        Q.   And I'd like for you to take a look at it, and then I have really

 7     but a few questions with regard to this report, and the ensuing reports.

 8             Mr. Sacirbey, let me ask you the following as you are reviewing

 9     the report, just to interrupt you for a brief second not because I wish

10     to break your train of thought, but rather this report is a report that

11     was produced during a period of time that you were the ambassador for

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

13        A.   That is correct.

14        Q.   And this is a report, as I understand it, was made for general

15     distribution; true?

16        A.   I believe it was.  I am looking for the key words, but would I

17     suspect it --

18        Q.   I'm looking at the front page --

19        A.   I would suspect it was.

20        Q.   Looking at the front page and under distribution it says

21     "general"?

22        A.   Okay.  Yes.

23        Q.   This is a report that you had occasion to read at the time, I'm

24     sure, no?

25        A.   To be very honest with you, I was so involved in most of these

Page 8130

 1     negotiations that perhaps some of this seems almost second-hand compared

 2     to reading it in a report.  So I cannot distinguish whether I reviewed it

 3     or of course I'm aware of the fact.

 4        Q.   With regard to the information that's contained within this

 5     report, that was distributed generally, you are aware of the information

 6     that's contained therein?  And I'm not asking you to rush through it.

 7     I'm not asking you to rush through it, but that will be my question.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Registrar, you can scroll down, let's see what

 9     is written.

10             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I'm trying to review it.  It's

11     a little difficult for me to conclude that everything here is something

12     that I have either reviewed or seen in the past.  But generally, I'm now,

13     frankly, just scanning it, rather than reviewing it carefully.  Yes, it

14     seems to be something I'm familiar with.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:

16        Q.   As a matter of fact, when these reports came in and they were

17     distributed generally, one of the things that you did in your capacity as

18     representative for Bosnia-Herzegovina is you reviewed the information

19     that was contained in these reports to make a determination as to whether

20     or not in your view they were accurate or inaccurate, whether they need

21     today be enhanced, or edited, or modified; correct?

22        A.   Either I personally would do that or members of my staff.

23        Q.   And with regard to whether or not you would do it personally, or

24     members of your staff would do it, ultimately the information would be

25     prepared for you.  You would be briefed on this matter?

Page 8131

 1        A.   Yes, I may be.  That's correct.

 2        Q.   When you say you may be, is that a possible "may," or are you

 3     using the "may" the way you used it previously, as a term of art?

 4        A.   No, in this instance -- in the instance as it refers to this

 5     report, as I said, I was so involved in negotiations, I'm not necessarily

 6     familiar with -- let me rephrase that.  I just cannot remember if I

 7     reviewed this report at the time.  As I said, I was so involved in

 8     negotiations.

 9             Most of the facts here, most of the discussions here seem very

10     familiar.

11        Q.   Very well.

12        A.   That's the best that I can say.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could I have this as Defendant's next in order,

14     please.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's admitted.  May it please be given an

16     exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This becomes Exhibit D155.

18     Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Moving to the next tab in the binder which is tab

21     86, which is -- I'm not going to be able to complete it in the period of

22     time that we have left before the break.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you suggesting that is convenient moment?

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I am.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.

Page 8132

 1             Court adjourned.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 3.29 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, Your Honour, with the Chamber's indulgence,

 6     Mr. Harmon has come down, there is a procedural matter that needs

 7     attending to, and I've been asked if I could truncate my examination for

 8     a moment so that the matter could be addressed.  I don't think it will

 9     take terribly long, but it's a matter of some importance with regard to

10     future scheduling.  So I would defer at this time to Mr. Lukic and

11     Mr. Harmon, if the Chamber is agreeable.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

13             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour, I have had a conversation -- first

14     of all, good afternoon, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon, Mr. Harmon.

16             MR. HARMON:  Good afternoon, counsel.

17             This afternoon prior to coming into court I was contacted by

18     Mr. Lukic and Mr. Guy-Smith.  This morning we produced to the Defence a

19     proofing note, an information report that was the result of a prolonged

20     conversation that we had with the next witness whose name I will not

21     identify at this point because I don't know what protective measures may

22     or may not be imposed, but nevertheless, we were able only to review that

23     proofing note with the witness yesterday.  And once it was reviewed and

24     there were corrections made to it, we disclosed it to the Defence.

25             The concern expressed to me by the Defence was it contained a

Page 8133

 1     number of new elements that weren't previously -- previously identified

 2     in a previous statement.  That is correct.  I accept that.  There's also

 3     overlap between what was in the previous statement and what is in this

 4     statement.  The result of which was the Defence proposed to me that we

 5     defer the testimony of this witness until after the break.  My

 6     proposal --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  After which break?

 8             MR. HARMON:  After the summer break.  After the summer recess.

 9     My proposal is as follows, Your Honour:  The witness is due to commence

10     his evidence on Thursday.  My proposal is that he would start his

11     evidence on Monday.  That would permit the Defence a number of extra days

12     to prepare the cross-examination.  I would commence my direct examination

13     of the witness on Monday.  I anticipate it would take approximately two

14     days, possibly more but not much more than two days if things go as I

15     anticipate.

16             The Defence would then be in a position to cross-examine on the

17     materials that they have received for which -- that is not new because

18     they had information about elements that they've had for a considerable

19     period of time.  I've disclosed to the Defence a number of exhibits,

20     potential exhibits.  I think at this point it's 55 exhibits.  Fifty-one

21     of which are already P exhibits in this case.  So there are no surprises

22     in terms of the exhibits themselves.  My suggestion would be that the

23     cross-examination then commence.  To the extent that the Defence feels it

24     cannot proceed because of the new information and its requirement that it

25     needs additional time, an adjournment can then be sought.  And I have

Page 8134

 1     checked with the witness, the witness would be in a position to return

 2     after the summer recess.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, without being on either side, would you

 4     in your response take into account that the suggestion by Mr. Harmon

 5     would possibly enable us to finish with Mr. Sacirbey this week?  Just

 6     bear that in mind as you configure your argument.  I'm sure everybody

 7     would like to finish with Mr. Sacirbey at this stage.  Not that we don't

 8     like you, Mr. Sacirbey, we love to have you here, but still you must be

 9     tired.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I simply had to wait for the

11     interpretation, and only now I realise the delay takes into the

12     interpretation and actually how much trouble I am for the interpreters.

13     I believe that we can stay in an open session.  All of us in the

14     courtroom know which witness we are talking about.  This is the gist of

15     the problem.  Today at noon we received the additional proofing note of

16     the interview with this witness.  This document is 20 pages long in B/C/S

17     and 19 pages in the English version.  So it's a rather lengthy document.

18             This is my concern:  The proofing notes concerning this interview

19     have to do with an interview that Mr. Harmon made with this witness

20     during the four last days of April of this year, so on the 27th, 28th,

21     29th, and 30th of April.  And the proofing note was compiled on the

22     1st of May.  This is what it stated here.

23             I can see here that the witness signed this note in the language

24     that he understands yesterday.  However, we only received this very

25     significant proofing note concerning this very significant witness today,

Page 8135

 1     and I believe that we simply did not have time enough to get prepared,

 2     because this is a very significant witness.  The testimony that will go

 3     into the very core of this -- this particular case.  And I would really

 4     not like to have to interrupt my cross-examination of this witness

 5     because I will simply not be able to start with one concept of

 6     cross-examination and then to have to change.  And given that I received

 7     this material only today at noon, I do not believe that I will be capable

 8     of getting prepared by Monday of next week.

 9             So this is a very fundamental issue that has to do with

10     Article 21 of the statute.  And I will tell you very briefly what my

11     proposal would be.  Given that this is one of the key witnesses of this

12     particular trial, also in light of the fact that there is a great number

13     of new facts that the witness will testify on, I agree with Mr. Harmon

14     that the documents that were available to us, but it is not the documents

15     that are problematic here, but rather the attitude of this witness

16     towards these documents as results from the proofing note.

17             My proposal would be either not to start with this witness giving

18     testimony here before the end of the summer recess, or for Mr. Harmon to

19     have his examination-in-chief next week and then for my cross-examination

20     to start after the summer break.  Because these few days are simply

21     insufficient for me to make all the checks that I believe I need to make

22     to prepare for my cross-examination.  So really it's been two and a half

23     months since the interview with this witness, and I only received the

24     proofing note today, so I believe that this is in contravention of

25     Article 21, and it simply doesn't allow me enough space.

Page 8136

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have told us that the witness only signed

 2     yesterday.  They couldn't give you a proofing note that is not signed, I

 3     would imagine.  What made it be signed only yesterday and not when it was

 4     drafted, that's another matter we don't know.

 5             Now, if I may suggest, Mr. Harmon, you said you would need two to

 6     three days to lead your evidence in chief with this witness.  That would

 7     mean if we accommodate Mr. Lukic and not -- and he does not start with

 8     his cross-examination, we would lose three days of next week.  Given what

 9     he is saying, is that fatal?  I mean, can't we accommodate him?  You lead

10     your witness next week and take your time.  If you take three days, it's

11     three days, and then we break off and then he starts his

12     cross-examination after the recess.

13             MR. HARMON:  Of course it's not fatal, Your Honour.  I was

14     thinking in terms of judicial economy in the sense that there are a large

15     number of subjects about which this witness would testify.  In my

16     respectful submission, the cross-examination could commence on those

17     subjects.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, I understand that.  But, you know, Mr. Lukic

19     has said what he has said about starting cross-examination next week,

20     it's not about the document; it's about the attitude of the witness.

21     Whatever the attitude is, I don't know.  And he is raising a more

22     important point which when balanced against judicial economy, it seems to

23     weigh heavier, namely the rights of the accused, at least in my view.

24             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I am at your disposal on this issue.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Can we quickly then agree that the

Page 8137

 1     Prosecution will lead evidence, and then you [indiscernible] on this

 2     witness, and we'll break off and the cross-examination will start in the

 3     new term.  Okay.  So be it ordered.

 4             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I have one request, however, in respect

 5     of the Court's now -- its decision.  May the testimony of the witness

 6     commence on Monday the 24th of August for the following reason:  I will

 7     be not available on the first day of the return.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are getting a larger slice of the recess?

 9             MR. HARMON:  I am getting a larger slice of the recess by one

10     day.  And I will not be available, I'll be in transit back to The Hague.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We recess -- we are supposed to start on the 17th

12     of August, aren't we?

13             MR. HARMON:  Okay.  17th would be fine then, Your Honour.  I am

14     sorry.  Let me check with Mr. Thomas.  I believe we have a witness who is

15     scheduled on the 17th and the 18th.  We have potential witnesses for the

16     remaining --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Days of that week.

18             MR. HARMON:  -- days of that week.  We are still working on the

19     scheduling of those witnesses, but we have allotted some time to those

20     witnesses so that following week would be ...

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And you say you are available from the

22     24th?

23             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour, I am available for the 24th for

24     the testimony of that witness.  I am available earlier, but I believe

25     there is -- if I can have just a moment.

Page 8138

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, in consultation with Mr. Thomas, it

 3     appears that the witnesses starting on the 19th are not firmly scheduled,

 4     so we could start with this witness on the 19th, if the Court --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will you be back?

 6             MR. HARMON:  I will be back, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We will not say anything about when he will

 8     start at this point.  We will hear from you.  If it's the 19th, it will

 9     be the 19th.  If you schedule other witnesses 19th, 20, 21st, you will do

10     so, and you can start on the 24th.  But all we'll say for now is that we

11     agree that his cross-examination begins after recess.

12             MR. HARMON:  Fine.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that okay?

14             MR. HARMON:  That's fine, Your Honour.  Thank you very much.  May

15     I be excused, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are excused, Mr. Harmon.

17             Mr. Sacirbey, sorry for that.  We had to do this also in the

18     interest of getting you finished with your testimony.

19             MR. THOMAS:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

21             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry.  Before my learned friend begins, I

22     didn't want to interrupt our proceedings.  At about half an hour or so, I

23     will be needed elsewhere.  I will be replaced in the courtroom by

24     Mr. Saxon.  I was wondering if I could just be excused at that point

25     without further reference to Your Honours, and for Mr. Saxon to come in.

Page 8139

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  You just want to sneak out, okay.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             If we could have 6090 up on the screen.  That would be tab 86 in

 6     the binder.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have that.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 9        Q.   No, I believe you have tab 85.  I'm -- sorry, you have tab 86.

10     It's coming up on the screen.

11             This document is once again a document that was distributed

12     generally; correct?

13        A.   That is correct.

14        Q.   And I'd like to go to the second page of the document.  This

15     document is dated -- no, no.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sorry, 1D03.  I do apologise, Mr. Registrar.  My

17     apologies.

18             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Okay.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it 1D03 before the 6090?

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's correct, Your Honour.

21        Q.   This is a document dated the 25th of June, 1995.  And it's a

22     report by the co-chairman of the steering committee of the international

23     conference on the former Yugoslavia.  And I'd like to go to the second

24     page of the document, page 2, paragraph number 3.  And with regard to the

25     language contained therein, it's the very last sentence on this page,

Page 8140

 1     which is:

 2             "The co-chairmen also conclude that during the period covered by

 3     the present report there have been no commercial trans-shipments across

 4     the border between the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and

 5     Montenegro) and the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."  Do you see

 6     that?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   Moving to page 4 of this report, paragraph 10 indicates:

 9             "The Mission continues to enjoy full freedom of movement within

10     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."  Correct?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   Moving to paragraph 16 on page 5, with regard to the cooperation

13     from the authorities of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, they continue

14     to be good; correct?

15        A.   I see that as well.

16        Q.   Thereafter at paragraph 19, there is a discussion about smuggling

17     of fuel and the interdiction of such smuggling effort -- of such

18     smuggling; correct?  It goes on from --

19        A.   Yes, I see that.

20        Q.   19, 20, 21, 22, and there's a continuing discussion with regard

21     to customs officials interdicting black-market officials; right?

22        A.   I see that.

23        Q.   I take it this is a document that you received in your capacity

24     as ambassador to Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you not?

25        A.   I did.

Page 8141

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could I have this marked as --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] As foreign minister at the time.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Can I have this marked as Defendant's next in

 5     order.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 7     number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This becomes Exhibit D156.

 9     Thank you.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If you could turn to the next tab in your binder,

11     sir, which is tab number 87, which would be 1D03-6082.

12        Q.   This is a letter dated 19 September, 1994, the distribution is

13     once again, as I understand it, general.  Correct?

14        A.   I see that.

15        Q.   Okay.  If I could refer to you page 3 specifically.  In which the

16     report states:

17             "Closure by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia of its border with

18     the Bosnian Serbs..."

19        A.   I see that.

20        Q.   This indicates that on the 4th of August, the following measures

21     were ordered by the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to

22     come in effect the same day; correct?

23        A.   Yes, I see that.

24        Q.   And it lists three specific measures that are to come into

25     effect; true?

Page 8142

 1        A.   Yes, I see that.

 2        Q.   To break off political and economic relations with

 3     Republika Srpska, to prohibit the stay of members of the leadership of

 4     Republika Srpska in the territory of FRY, and as of today the border of

 5     the FRY is closed for all transport towards Republika Srpska except food,

 6     clothing, and medicine; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, I see that.

 8        Q.   If you could turn to page 6 of the same document, sir.

 9             With regard to the Mission concept, and looking -- directing your

10     attention to paragraph 19 with regard to the Mission concept, there's an

11     indication:

12             "The Mission will exercise its right to go wherever it wishes

13     without any form of prior notification to follow the work of customs

14     officers of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro)

15     and to actually look into vehicles crossing the border."  Correct?

16        A.   Yes, I see that again.

17        Q.   This is a document, this is actually a letter that you also

18     received in your capacity as ambassador of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you

19     not?

20        A.   Yes, I did.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  Could I have that marked as

22     Defendant's next in order.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so marked.  May it please be given an

24     exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes

Page 8143

 1     Exhibit D157.  Thank you.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If you could turn to the next tab in your binder,

 3     that would be tab number 88, which is 1D03-6050.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I have that.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 6        Q.   Once again this is a general distribution; correct?

 7        A.   That is correct.

 8        Q.   And this is the discussion of UNPROFOR; true?

 9        A.   Yes.  It seems at least in part.  I haven't reviewed the whole

10     thing.

11        Q.   Okay.  Well, if you'd like to take a moment to look at it, that

12     will be fine.

13        A.   Yes, at least that seems to be the lion's share of the

14     discussion.

15        Q.   I'd like you to turn to paragraph 30, if you could, which is on

16     page 10 of the hard copy, and I'll tell --

17        A.   I have that in front of me.

18        Q.   Okay.  And with regard to the issue of safe areas, if you go

19     about halfway in the paragraph, this was something that we had been

20     discussing, I believe, the other day, which specific day, to be perfectly

21     honest with you, Mr. Sacirbey, I don't remember, but we discussed the

22     issue of the use of safe areas.  And the report indicates:

23             "The army of the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina has also

24     used the safe areas as locations in which its troops can rest, train, and

25     equip themselves as well as fire at Serb positions, thereby provoking

Page 8144

 1     Serb retaliation."

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where are you reading in paragraph 30?

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If you go about halfway down the paragraph,

 4     Your Honour.  It starts with --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I am with you.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 7        Q.   It goes on to say:

 8             "If the concept is to be sustained, the term "safe area" requires

 9     re-definition, as suggested in the Secretary-General's report of 11 March

10     1994, which discussions the feasibility of extending the concept to three

11     additional towns identified by Security Council.  Such re-definition

12     would require full demilitarisation by both sides on agreed conditions,

13     assured freedom of movement, the impounding or withdrawal of heavy

14     weapons and extensive UNPROFOR deployment."

15             Correct?

16        A.   Yes, I see that.

17        Q.   With regard to the issue of sniping in paragraph 31, if you go

18     down 1, 2, 3, 4 lines, and I should say heavy shelling and sniping, the

19     report indicates:

20             "...  some of it provoked by offensive actions undertaken by

21     forces of the army of the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

22     Correct?

23        A.   Yes, I see that.

24        Q.   If we could move to paragraph 34A, which I believe you'll find on

25     hard copy page 12.  It states:

Page 8145

 1             "Several of the newer tasks have placed UNPROFOR in a position of

 2     thwarting the military objectives of one party, and therefore

 3     compromising its impartiality which remains the key to its effectiveness

 4     in fulfilling its humanitarian responsibilities."  Does it not?

 5        A.   Yes, I see that.

 6        Q.   With regard to this particular paragraph which is thwarting the

 7     military objectives of one party and compromising its impartiality, is

 8     that a matter that was discussed both formally and informally at the

 9     United Nations both in the Security Council as well as the

10     General Assembly, that there were concerns about UNPROFOR's impartiality

11     or the perception of its impartiality?

12        A.   Yes, in the context of the mandate given, and I would assess here

13     that the mandate certainly was broader than at quote/unquote humanitarian

14     responsibilities.

15        Q.   I understand your response.  My concern is the issue of whether

16     or not there was a perception and a concern that UNPROFOR's impartiality

17     would be called into question as a result of its activities which was a

18     matter of discussion at the United Nations?

19        A.   Yes, I think I answered that question.

20        Q.   And your answer is yes, as I understand it.

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

23             Could I have that marked as Defendant's next in order.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So marked.  May it please be given an exhibit

25     number.

Page 8146

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes

 2     Exhibit D158.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I could now have you take a brief look at the

 5     next tab in the binder, which is -- I believe it's tab number 89.  And

 6     that would be 1D03-6040.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] March 11, 1994?

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 9        Q.   That's correct.

10        A.   I have that in front of me.

11        Q.   Excellent.  This is a document, once again, that was for general

12     distribution; correct?

13        A.   Yes, I see that.

14        Q.   And is this a document that you had occasion to review in your

15     capacity as the ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16        A.   I believe I did, yes.

17        Q.   With regard to this document, once again, if you could take a

18     look at paragraph 17 in this document, which I believe you'll find on

19     page 5.

20        A.   I see the paragraph.

21        Q.   This paragraph indicates a number of things, but not only that

22     the living conditions in the safe areas remain appalling, they suffer

23     from high levels of unemployment, overcrowding, crime, and prostitution,

24     but once again there is the statement that the Army of Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina has used the safe areas as locations in which troops can

Page 8147

 1     rest, train, and equip themselves; right?

 2        A.   I see that.

 3        Q.   And that was the -- that was the -- if you recall, those were the

 4     prophetic remarks that were made by Wahlgren some time before that it was

 5     important that the safe areas be demilitarised?

 6        A.   I believe we are speaking of something from two weeks earlier.

 7        Q.   Yes, it could well have been two weeks ago.

 8        A.   Yeah.  I recall your point on that.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  Could I have that marked as Defendant's

10     next in order.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Its admitted into evidence.  May it please be

12     given an exhibit number.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Your Honour, just so I'm clear, the questioning in

14     the last few documents has been basically that my friend reads a portion

15     and then he confirms that that is in fact what the document says.  Just

16     want it to be clear that the witness isn't being asked, I take it, to

17     agree with the contents; he is just being asked to confirm that my friend

18     has correctly read the paragraph, is that right?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why do you want to add on the questions that have

20     already been put to the witness, ma'am?  Now you are asking something

21     that has not been asked.

22             MS. BOLTON:  I'm trying to clarify whether -- my friend asked a

23     question, and he usually ends it by saying "correct."  I'm not clear if

24     he is asking the witness to confirm that he has properly read or

25     summarised the paragraph, or if when he says correct, the answer -- when

Page 8148

 1     he says yes is supposed to mean that he is agreeing with the contents.  I

 2     guess I'm a little confused on --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, I hear you now.

 4             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With regard to the question -- with regard to the

 6     question or the concern put by Ms. Bolton, first of all, you agree that I

 7     properly read the documents; right?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, you can't now begin to question

 9     Madam Bolton.  Make your point.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm not questioning Ms. Bolton.  I'm taking into

11     account what she said, there are two points there.  One is, do you agree

12     that I properly read the documents.  I am taking care of both of the

13     issues she's raised.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you asking Mr. Sacirbey?

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yeah.  That's what her concern was.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers]... No, no.  I think the

17     correct answer, Mr. Guy-Smith, is not to answer Madam Bolton by asking

18     the witness questions.  Your correct answer is to tell her what you are

19     doing.  She wants to know are you asking the witness whether you have

20     correctly quoted.  Does he agree that that is what is written, or does he

21     agree with the content?  I think you should tell her --

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm not in the habit of telling Ms. Bolton that

23     which I think is plainly evident.  If she doesn't understand the

24     question, then she can clean it up.  But in this position I'm happy to --

25     I'm happy to work with Ms. Bolton and the Court.

Page 8149

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand you.  Okay.  Your learned

 2     friend is not going to explain to you what he is doing.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  What I'm going to do, what my intention had been

 4     was to deal with both parts of her concern.  One is whether or not the

 5     information that I read to him was accurately contained in those reports.

 6     And secondly, whether or not he agreed with the information that was

 7     contained.  Because she had asked both of those questions, so I was

 8     trying to work with her, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Surely.

11        Q.   Do you have my question in mind?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Registrar.

13             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, to your previous questions, I

14     answered, I see that, which of course reflects that I have understood the

15     previous questions to be whether or not I in fact understand your reading

16     of those particular phrases or paragraphs to be accurate.  Of course that

17     reading is neither complete nor do I necessarily agree with it.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:

19        Q.   Okay.  And when you say you don't necessarily agree with it, is

20     it fair to say that with regard to the documents that we have just been

21     through, and by those I am referring to those documents which now have

22     been given Exhibit numbers starting with -- and I'm trying to get the

23     exhibit numbers so we are clear about it.  So the record is clear here.

24     I'll give you that -- starting with Exhibit D155.  So it would be 155,

25     156, 157, 158, and 159, that the information that is contained in those

Page 8150

 1     exhibits is, one, information that was, you've told us, discussed both in

 2     the Security Council and in the General Assembly; correct?

 3        A.   I believe that contains a lot of information, and certainly some

 4     of it has been discussed.  I'm not sure it's fair enough to say that all

 5     of it was discussed or discussed in the same context.

 6        Q.   All of it was made privy, as you've told us, through general

 7     distribution to the various participants and member states, either at the

 8     General Assembly or the Security Council; right?

 9        A.   That is correct.

10        Q.   Okay.  And with regard to the accuracy or the validity of some of

11     that information, you take issue with some of that information, if I

12     understand your testimony.

13        A.   That is correct.

14        Q.   Okay, thank you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you proceed, the record does not show that

16     ID03-6040 was given an exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document becomes Exhibit D159.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

21        Q.   With regard to the issue of diplomacy and -- [technical

22     difficulties]...  With regard to the issue of diplomacy, you have stated

23     that diplomacy provides wide latitude in the manipulation of words, have

24     you not?

25        A.   I am not sure I've stated that I actually do agree with that

Page 8151

 1     statement.

 2        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to read something to you so we can do this

 3     quickly.  I'm referring -- going to read something to you which is from a

 4     speech that you gave on 4th of June, 1993, and see if that refreshes your

 5     recollection as to having made the statement.  Ninety-two.  Which is:

 6             "There is another new term in the special dictionary for

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina, joint action programme.  One word in that phrase is

 8     especially misleading, action.  Diplomacy provides wide latitude in the

 9     manipulation of words.  But we all know that the objective that has

10     motivated this programme is avoidance."

11             Could you hear me there?  You may not have been because I'm

12     having to go --

13        A.   Yes, I could.

14        Q.   Do you recall making such a statement?

15        A.   Yes, I do.  At least in the general context.  But, yes, I do.

16        Q.   Well, as a matter of fact, that's what I want to deal with.  I

17     want to deal with the manipulation of words in a general context with you

18     here.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have please 1D03-2229 on the screen.

20     That would be found in tab number 78, Mr. Registrar.  And this is an ...

21             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have this document in front

22     of me.  Article December 17th, 1995, "New York Times."

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:

24        Q.   It's an editorial; correct?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 8152

 1        Q.   And this is an editorial that as a matter of fact as you have

 2     said, Your finger-prints are all over it; right?  That's something you

 3     told to Mr. Nice, that this is an editorial that you had cause to have

 4     put into the "New York Times" because of your concerns about Mr. Bildt?

 5        A.   If you are suggesting that I had influence on the views expressed

 6     here, that is correct.

 7        Q.   Well, I use very specific language, which is that you had your

 8     finger-prints all over it.  When you say you had influence on the views

 9     that are expressed here, are you telling the Chamber that you influenced

10     this particular "New York Times" editorial piece?

11        A.   I believe I may have.

12        Q.   Well, once again, when you say you may have, I guess what you are

13     telling us is that you did; right?

14        A.   I did not have a direct conversation with the writer of this

15     editorial.  So I cannot be a hundred per cent sure.

16        Q.   Well, I understand that.  But you, as a matter of fact, had a

17     conversation with Mr. Nice in which you specifically indicated that this

18     editorial was an editorial that you had caused to be put in the "New York

19     Times," and ultimately you had a conversation with Mr. Bildt about this

20     editorial in Strasburg some period of time later; correct?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers]... Madam Bolton.

22             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Actually, I had a conversation --

23             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, I know there is a time delay with New York,

24     And I apologise for interrupting.  Can my friend just assist me in terms

25     of locating that reference in the materials for Mr. Nice.

Page 8153

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It's in tape 2A.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Do you have a time you can provide to me?

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Probably.  I suggest you look around 1 hour,

 4     26 minutes, more or less.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 7        Q.   As a matter of fact, this particular editorial went, if I'm not

 8     mistaken, through an individual by the name of Mabel?

 9        A.   I believe she had some influence on it; that's correct.

10        Q.   And then to the "New York Times" editorial; right?

11        A.   I believe that may in fact be accurate.

12        Q.   When you say you believe that may in fact be accurate, as a

13     matter of fact as you sit here right now, you know that's accurate,

14     because you were instrumental in putting this editorial into the "New

15     York Times," weren't you, Mr. Sacirbey?

16        A.   Very honestly, Mr. Guy-Smith, I love to take credit for it, but I

17     don't want to be so presumptuous.  I only am being conditional to the

18     extent that I cannot tell that you the people who put it into the "New

19     York Times" did it at my behest.  But otherwise I'd love to take credit

20     for it.

21        Q.   Are you telling us, just so I'm clear, that when you told

22     Mr. Nice that your finger-prints were all over it, that you were not at

23     that time taking credit for this particular editorial?

24        A.   I believe I used that term as best as I could to say that I had

25     influence over it, or believed that I had influence over it.

Page 8154

 1        Q.   Well, you didn't say that, did you?  You didn't say, I believe I

 2     had influence over it.

 3        A.   Well, I used the words "my finger-prints are on it," which I

 4     think doesn't also correspond to the term that you are using, that I took

 5     credit for it - now we are frozen - but as I said, I'd love to take

 6     credit for it, I just do not wish to be presumptuous.

 7             The screen is frozen right now Guy-Smith.  I can hear you still,

 8     I believe.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So it's us who are frozen.

11             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] If I may ask, are we frozen to you?

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, you are not.

13             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Okay.  I'm happy to proceed, I don't

14     really need to --

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You are happy with my frozen face?

16             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] That's correct.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Great.

18        Q.   Thereafter, maybe I made a mistake and the meeting was not in

19     Strasburg, but rather in Berlin, you met with Bildt, and he asked you

20     specifically about this editorial, did he not?

21        A.   Actually, the meeting took place in --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

23             MS. BOLTON:  I'm just going to object on the basis of relevance

24     of this entire line of questioning.  It hasn't been established yet.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What hasn't been established yet, ma'am?  The

Page 8155

 1     relevance.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Any relevance to -- I haven't had a chance yet to

 3     read the editorial, but at this point I'm at a loss as to what the

 4     relevance is of this entire line of questioning, whether he had influence

 5     over putting an editorial in the "New York Times," et cetera.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  This all stems from the issue of his manipulation

 8     of words.  It goes directly to his credibility and how he manipulates

 9     facts and how he manipulates words.

10             MS. BOLTON:  I'm still not there yet, but I'll wait and see if my

11     friend develops it along those lines.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:

13        Q.   You are saying, Mr. Sacirbey?

14        A.   I said the meeting that you are speaking of actually took place

15     in Bonn.

16        Q.   Okay.  And at that meeting in Bonn, Bildt directly asked you

17     whether or not you were involved in or were behind this particular

18     editorial, did he not?

19        A.   Yes, he did.

20        Q.   And you told him that you were not, didn't you?

21        A.   I actually -- I actually did not say that.  I said -- I suggested

22     he also talk to Ambassador Holbrooke.

23        Q.   Well, when you discussed this matter with Mr. Nice, I believe

24     that's at 1 hour, 29 minutes, and 30 seconds, you said:

25             "I said no.  Did you think about Holbrooke?"

Page 8156

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   Now, when you told that to Mr. Nice, you were telling Mr. Nice

 3     the truth with regard to your conversation at least with Mr. Bildt;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   I think I've just repeated that same statement here.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Well, but as a matter of fact, you were involved in this

 7     particular editorial, and the reason that you were involved in this

 8     particular editorial, is because you were upset about the way Mr. Bildt

 9     had handled earlier issues with you; correct?

10        A.   Including the betrayal of Srebrenica; that's correct.

11        Q.   I understand that.  And you, as a matter of fact, made a

12     determination that you would move behind the scenes in an attempt to

13     influence and to manipulate a world opinion through a "New York Times"

14     editorial to the potential detriment of Mr. Bildt, did you not?

15        A.   I had no agenda against Mr. Bildt.  I had an agenda to find out

16     the truth with respect to Srebrenica, which at that time was, at best,

17     clouded.

18        Q.   Well, looking at this particular editorial, is the language that

19     is contained in this editorial language which you think achieved that

20     purpose?

21        A.   First of all, I cannot take credit, even if I might, for the

22     entire editorial, because obviously I did not write it word by word.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  What can you take credit --

24        A.   Seconds of all --

25        Q.   Go ahead.

Page 8157

 1        A.   Yes, in fact what we have here.  I think a key sentence for which

 2     I do believe I am responsible for, which is:

 3             "He needs to use that leverage to make sure that Srebrenica

 4     massacre and other atrocities like it did not go unpunished."

 5             My concern was that in fact the International War Crimes Tribunal

 6     would be somehow side-lined and amnesties would be de facto pushed upon

 7     the participants.  And in fact I think we have seen evidence that there

 8     is a possibility that the arrest of war criminals was not always in fact

 9     a primary objective of some of the parties involved in implementing the

10     Dayton Agreement.  They seem to sometimes put that into a priority.

11        Q.   With regard to that, I take it what you are talking about is your

12     allegations concerning a deal between Mr. Holbrooke and Mr. Karadzic.  Is

13     that what you are talking about?

14             MS. BOLTON:  Excuse me --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The speakers are kindly

16     asked to pause between questions and answers and not to overlap.  Thank

17     you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are asked not to overlap, Mr. Guy-Smith.

19             Yes, Madam Bolton.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, thank you.

21             In terms of the relevance of this line of questioning, I object,

22     Your Honour, and I would indicate that clearly this is an area that has

23     not even been deemed to be relevant in terms of the actual Trial Chamber

24     that is hearing the Karadzic matter.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, I don't think we have talked about

Page 8158

 1     Karadzic here.  So far we are talking about Bildt and this witness.  Can

 2     we stick to --

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The reason I mentioned that is because he said,

 4     And there's a possibly the arrest of war criminals was not always in fact

 5     a primary objective of some of the parties involved in implementing the

 6     Dayton Agreement.  That was the reason why because I believe that's in

 7     response to my question.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not -- I still don't understand how that has

 9     to do with Holbrooke and Karadzic.  Did you mention Holbrooke?

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, because with regard to the editorial there

11     had been a discussion between Mr. Sacirbey and Mr. Bildt, in which

12     Mr. Sacirbey had suggested that Holbrooke was someone who may have been

13     behind the Bildt editorial.  So it's a natural flow within the context of

14     what is going on --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers]... Karadzic is not

16     mentioned in that editorial.  We haven't seen the entirety of this

17     editorial.  Is Karadzic mentioned there?

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  He is not.  But, here, what I'm dealing with is

19     I'm dealing with the issue of the ares of war criminals.  I'm merely

20     responding to what the gentleman said in his answer.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But then you are putting words in his mouth.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I'm asking him whether that's the case or

23     not.

24             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honour, the question my friend asked was

25     is about the arrest of war criminals, and then he went into talking about

Page 8159

 1     a deal between Mr. Holbrooke and Mr. Karadzic, and that had not been

 2     mentioned.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's my point.  That's the point -- that's what

 4     I'm trying to find out from Mr. Guy-Smith.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I think it's reasonable to assume from the

 6     answer he gave with regard to the priority concerning the arresting of

 7     war criminals that the assertion that there was a deal between

 8     Mr. Holbrooke and Mr. Karadzic concerning an arrest falls necessarily or

 9     flows necessarily from his answer.  But I don't need to dwell on this

10     issue particularly.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please don't.  Thank you.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:

13        Q.   With regard to page -- what I have is the second page of this

14     particular editorial, it indicates, if we could go -- scroll down.  Going

15     to the second paragraph, it states:

16             "Mr. Bildt, who still serves as Sweden's opposition leader and

17     nourishes political ambitions back home, has surprisingly suggested that

18     he intends to divide his calendar between Sweden and the Balkans.  Bosnia

19     is not a part-time job.  If Mr. Bildt cannot understand that, someone

20     else should be found who can."

21             Now is that your language, Mr. Sacirbey?

22        A.   My input would be much more related to the efforts to infuse

23     justice and also to --

24        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey, Mr. Sacirbey, I'm asking you very specific

25     question, And I'd appreciate an answer to my question.

Page 8160

 1        A.   That is not my language.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could I have that marked as Defendant's next in

 4     order, please.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so marked.  May it please be given an

 6     exhibit number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, this becomes Exhibit D160.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 9             Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:

11        Q.   On March 7th, 1980, you were arrested for gambling in public in

12     the 4th District Court of Louisiana in New Orleans, were you not?

13        A.   March when?

14        Q.   7th.

15        A.   Of which year?

16        Q.   1980, Mr. Sacirbey.

17        A.   If I was arrested for that purpose, it certainly wasn't -- the

18     case never went anywhere, never was even booked as such.

19        Q.   That's not my question, sir.

20        A.   Well, I really do not -- when I was a student in New Orleans, I

21     found myself being arrested on more than one occasion for things that

22     maybe students would -- [Overlapping speakers]...

23        Q.   Excuse me.  Mr. Sacirbey, I'm not asking you for all the

24     occasions you were arrested; I'm only asking you about this specific --

25        A.   You are asking me for something regarding 27 years earlier or

Page 8161

 1     29 years earlier now.  So I would appreciate if you would put forth the

 2     full facts, if you wish to in some way impugn my credibility or my

 3     character.

 4        Q.   I'm asking you a simple question about what happened in your

 5     life.

 6        A.   And I'm answering it what happened in my life.  And the way you

 7     have characterised it, I do not believe is accurate.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Is it your testimony that in 1980 in Louisiana you were

 9     not arrested for gambling in public?

10        A.   No, it is my testimony that if that was the case, then the way

11     you have presented was not accurate, because I never was in fact either

12     charged with any such offence or brought before any judge for such

13     offence.  Whatever allegation may have been made by any individual or

14     arresting officer, I'm not aware of.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  I have to stop at the moment because I

16     have no LiveNote.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honour, I'm sorry to

19     interrupt, but to get the videolink back, we might have to disconnect and

20     then connect back.  Would that be a good moment to do that?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, yeah, you do that, Mr. Registrar, while we

22     try to get LiveNote this side.  And just indicate once we are connected.

23             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm told they'll have to restart the whole

25     LiveNote.  Apparently it's Tribunal-wide, this problem.  And it will take

Page 8162

 1     them 5 minutes.  We'll take a court adjournment, And be called when they

 2     are ready.  Court adjourned

 3                           --- Break taken at 5.01 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 5.48 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  One little point, which is housekeeping, before

 6     you continue, Mr. Guy-Smith.  We talked earlier, and I'm a sorry,

 7     Mr. Harmon is not here, about scheduling.  It doesn't seem to be quite

 8     clear whether we are or are not --

 9             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, are you able to hear

10     us?  We are not able it to hear The Hague.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are not able to hear?  Okay.  Can you hear me

12     now?  Can you hear me now?  Still can't hear me.  Can you hear me,

13     Mr. Registrar?

14             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Hello?

15                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are reconnecting.  While they are

17     reconnecting, can we carry on.

18             We didn't clarify whether we are sitting or not sitting tomorrow.

19     The witness for tomorrow we have said is going to come on Monday.  Do we

20     have a witness for tomorrow from the Prosecution?  It cannot be this

21     witness because we can't switch over to the afternoon session tomorrow

22     afternoon.

23             MR. SAXON:  No, we do not have another witness available

24     tomorrow.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So the net effect then is that we are not sitting

Page 8163

 1     tomorrow.

 2             MR. SAXON:  Correct, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Are we connected now?  Can you hear

 4     me, Mr. Registrar?  Can you hear me, Mr. Registrar?

 5             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We can hear you, Your Honours.

 6     Can you hear us?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I can hear you very well.  Can you hear me?  Okay,

 8     thank you so much.

 9             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, we can hear you very well.

10     Can you see us as well?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Say that again.

12             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Can you see us as well?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I can see you as well, Mr. Registrar.  And I can

14     hear you too.  Thank you so much.

15             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, maybe just to update you, we were just

17     saying that given the logistics up here, we cannot sit with Mr. Sacirbey

18     tomorrow because we don't have an afternoon session.  The only session we

19     could have is in the morning in The Hague which would be night-time

20     there, so when we postpone, we will skip tomorrow for Mr. Sacirbey.

21             Mr. Guy-Smith.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Your Honour?  Your Honour, if I may.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Apparently the witness who was

Page 8164

 1     scheduled for tomorrow will not be in a position to testify until Monday.

 2     So we are not sure that by tonight, Mr. Sacirbey's testimony will be

 3     completed.  We are not sure about that.  And it appears, however, that

 4     tomorrow morning's session could be scheduled in the afternoon if it is a

 5     very short one.  So would that be possible?

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honour, just I think Mr. Sacirbey wanted

10     to address the Court on the issue of scheduling, if you would hear from

11     him.  You recall that we had heard previously from the Defence last week.

12     They indicated they would need two more sessions with him which would

13     have been Monday.  When we discussed matter of the Court out of an

14     abundance of caution, we also discussed Tuesday.  But I don't think any

15     one has discussed with Mr. Sacirbey his availability beyond tomorrow.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was Mr. Sacirbey not present when we discussed it

17     earlier?  I thought Mr. Sacirbey was there when we discussed when we

18     discussed when Mr. Harmon was here.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  He was.

20             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Your Honour, I was under the

21     impression -- Your Honour, I was under the impression from the

22     discussions yesterday with Mr. Guy-Smith who said he would conclude his

23     cross-examination today, and my counsel nor I have made any preparation

24     beyond that.  In fact, on the basis of Mr. Guy-Smith's statement

25     yesterday, we assumed the testimony would be completed today, and we had

Page 8165

 1     made alternative plans.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do, understand, Mr. Sacirbey, that after

 3     Mr. Guy-Smith's cross-examination, there's still re-examination to take

 4     place, and we have no idea how long that will take.  And then there are

 5     questions from the Bench, and then there may be questions arising from

 6     the question by the Bench.  So that, you know, you really have to make

 7     yourself available for testifying and not make arrangements based on what

 8     Defence counsel says.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I apologise.  Your Honour, we were

10     just under the impression that it would be concluding with

11     cross-examination.  If you don't mind, can you please let us know how

12     long you think this will continue.  And counsel and I will consult and do

13     whatever else we have to accommodate the Court.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know how long Mr. Guy-Smith is still going

15     to be.  But even if he does finish, there's still re-examination by the

16     Prosecution.  And then after re-examination by the Prosecution, there may

17     be questions from the Bench.  And after the questions from the Bench,

18     there may be questions by either party arising from the questions by the

19     Bench.  So, you know -- you understand.  Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yeah, I do understand.  I guess, if

21     I may, Your Honour, in the context of the cross-examination, my counsel

22     is probably most critical.  So I will try to accommodate the Court and

23     whatever I can personally, and I'll work with my counsel.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  You do that.  Thank you very much,

25     Mr. Sacirbey.

Page 8166

 1             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Before the break, I asked you the following question and you gave

 5     me the following response, which is:

 6             "Okay.  Is it your testimony that in 1980 in Louisiana you were

 7     not arrested for gambling in public?"

 8             And your answer is as follows:

 9             "No, it is my testimony that if that was the case ..."  and then

10     you continue with your answer.

11             I once again will ask you the same question.  I am not asking

12     whether or not if it was the case, I'm asking is it your testimony that

13     you were not arrested in 1980 for gambling in Louisiana, yes or no?

14        A.   As I have said, I'm not aware of what I may have been arrested

15     for at that time.  I do recall being arrested, and as I said, I think it

16     was on more than one occasion in New Orleans at a time when I was a

17     student.  And I certainly have never been charged or any further action

18     brought with respect to that issue.  So if you would like to refresh my

19     memory, I'll be very happy to see you do that.

20        Q.   Okay.  Since you've indicated you were arrested on more than one

21     occasion in Louisiana, let me ask you the following question then,

22     Mr. Sacirbey:  Were you arrested on more than one occasion in Louisiana

23     as a student for gambling?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Okay.  Do you recall being arrested in 1980 in the 4th district

Page 8167

 1     for the Orleans parish in the month of, let's say, January, February,

 2     March for gambling in public?  Just being arrested, I didn't ask you

 3     whether you were charged, any further than the arrest.

 4        A.   I remember, as I said, more than one arrest, I do not remember

 5     ever such charge being lodged.

 6        Q.   That's not my question, sir.  And unfortunately your avoidance of

 7     the specific question is making this tedious.  It's a very simple

 8     question.  This is not a difficult -- Mr. Sacirbey, Mr. Sacirbey.

 9        A.   You are try put words in my mouth.  You are trying to put words

10     if my mouth.

11        Q.   No, I am not trying to put words in your mouth at all.  I am

12     asking you a very simple question.

13        A.   You are trying to put words into my mouth.

14        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]... I am not.  You are an attorney, and you

15     clearly understand a distinction between an arrest and a charge.  This is

16     not a game you should be playing with me or with this Chamber?

17        A.   Excuse me, excuse me, Mr. Guy-Smith.  Was in fact no charge or

18     ever arrest was ever read to me if I was picked up.

19        Q.   Is it your testimony that you were picked up in 1980 for gambling

20     in public?  Is that your testimony?

21        A.   No, it is not.  Because if I was picked up, I may be completely

22     unaware of what it was for.  And you are now trying to lodge your own

23     charge.

24        Q.   I'm not trying to do anything, sir.  I'm just asking you

25     questions about your past.

Page 8168

 1        A.   You are asking me about 29 years ago, a specific date, a specific

 2     charge, a specific issue.  I have given you my best answer.

 3        Q.   As a matter of fact, I tried to be -- I tried to be kind with you

 4     and give you more than just a specific date so that it would be of

 5     assistance to you, but apparently you are either incapable or unwilling

 6     to answer the question.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could please have --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] [Previous translation continues] ...

 9     satisfaction, Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could please have -- this would be tab

11     number 6, this is 1D03-0265.

12             MS. BOLTON:  I think this is a document in respect of the area

13     where we had had the ruling about going into the Prosecution being able

14     to request to go into private session, I'd make that request,

15     Your Honour.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8169











11 Pages 8169-8192 redacted. Private session.















Page 8193

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:

15        Q.   You've told us that you have dual citizenship, correct,

16     Mr. Sacirbey?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   And with regard to your dual citizenship, I take it that you

19     also, at one point in your life, also had what you believed to be

20     diplomatic immunity; correct?

21        A.   Again it depended on the circumstance, of course.  Diplomatic

22     immunity is asserted by the country for which you serve and the

23     circumstance.

24        Q.   Okay.  Were you involved in a matter at the Harrahs Jazz Casino

25     in New Orleans in late April 2000, in which you were accused of using

Page 8194

 1     loaded dice?

 2        A.   Accused by who?  I'm sorry.  Are you suggesting I was arrested,

 3     charged or anything?

 4        Q.   No, I'm suggesting you were accused.  And when the police came to

 5     deal with the matter, you asserted diplomatic immunity?

 6        A.   I was never -- first of all, are you, again, suggesting that I

 7     was arrested or charged or accused by who?  Again, I'm trying to make

 8     sure you are completely correct on that statement.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question was accused, Mr. Sacirbey, not

10     arrested, not charged.

11             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Your Honour, I'm not sure what

12     assertions may have been made by others, but I'm not aware of being

13     charged or arrested for that purpose.  If someone accused me for that,

14     that is their opinion at best.  I'm just not aware of any sort of

15     accusations by any official.  Yes.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:

17        Q.   Mr. Sacirbey, isn't it a fact that you were contacted by police

18     at the Harrah's Jazz Casino in New Orleans concerning the fact that you

19     had been using loaded dice in gambling, and you told them that you had

20     diplomatic immunity?

21        A.   I told them that I was a diplomat.  I told them my identity and

22     my title.

23        Q.   When you say that you told them that you were a diplomat, you

24     asserted your diplomatic immunity so that you would not be arrested for

25     this particular offence, that being the use of loaded dice in gambling?

Page 8195

 1        A.   That's not correct.  In fact, in fact, I pursued my only legal

 2     action against that particular institution.

 3        Q.   You were contacted after you were let go because you said that

 4     you had diplomatic immunity and you claimed that the whole incident was a

 5     result of either police harassment or enemies that you had; correct?

 6        A.   That is largely correct.

 7        Q.   And when you say that is largely correct, what part of that do

 8     you take issue with, if any?

 9        A.   Well, again since you use the term loaded dice, I have -- I was

10     certainly not using loaded dice.  I certainly was not engaged in any

11     illegal activity, so I have still not come to the bottom of what this

12     incident was all about except that it did appear in the press.  And

13     frankly, I cannot tell you whether it was some sort of mistaken

14     assertion, whether in fact it was some sort of harassment, or whether in

15     fact it was some sort of setup.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. --

17             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Clearly the fact that you have

18     outlined of any sort of loaded dice being used is not accurate.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Sacirbey, Mr. Sacirbey, please, let's try to

20     listen to the question and answer directly to the question.  The question

21     that you answered, that is largely correct, to does not refer at all to a

22     loaded dice.  The question was simply:

23             "You were contacted after you were let go because you said that

24     you had diplomatic immunity, and you claimed that the whole incident was

25     a result of either police harassment or enemies that you had; correct?"

Page 8196

 1             And your answer was:  "That is largely correct."

 2             Next question was:  "What part, if any, of that question do you

 3     take issue with?"

 4             Now do you remember there's no loaded dice in that question.  You

 5     can answer that question, what part do you take issue with?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] To the extent that the question is

 7     repeating the point of did I claim diplomatic immunity, as I said I did

 8     not.  I only identified myself.  And second of all, to the extent that

 9     the question suggested I have come to a conclusion, what was behind this

10     incident, I have not.  I still believe it consists on one of the three

11     possibilities that I outlined, which is potentially a mistake, some sort

12     of harassment, or some sort of setup.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:

14        Q.   As an American citizen being approached by a state police in

15     Louisiana, could you tell us, please, what is the importance of you being

16     a diplomat?

17        A.   Actually, I was in New Orleans on a speaking engagement.  And to

18     the extent that I'm acting in the context of my responsibilities, that

19     would be very relevant.

20        Q.   If I understand your answer, is it your position that because you

21     were a diplomat, that you were shielded from arrest in the event there

22     was --

23        A.   No.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question was not complete yet, Mr. Sacirbey.

25     Just wait for the question to be complete.

Page 8197

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 2        Q.   In the event that you were approached by the police with regard

 3     to cheating at dice at a casino?

 4        A.   Again I think you made an assumption in there as to why I was

 5     approached.  And second of all, it is highly relevant why I'm in

 6     New Orleans and the fact that I have to continue, I was then doing in

 7     effect a week's worth of courses at Tulane University.

 8        Q.   While you were doing your week's worth of courses at

 9     Tulane University, did you have occasion to frequent the casino that has

10     been the subject matter of our discussion?

11        A.   The hotel which I stayed was in fact right there.  It was either

12     part of the building or right across the street.  In fact, I think they

13     are connected.  So I would pass through it or pass by it all the time

14     back to my hotel.

15        Q.   Were you playing dice or a game which is called craps in the

16     United States for which you were approached by the police because they

17     were concerned that you were cheating?

18        A.   Again I think you are making an assumption as to why the police

19     or anyone else would approach me.  As to whether or not if you are asking

20     me was I engaged in any games, the answer is yes.

21        Q.   Was the game that you were engaged in the game of dice or craps,

22     as its called in the United States?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Were you approached by the police with regard to your involvement

25     in the game of dice at the casino?

Page 8198

 1        A.   Again, I'm not sure why they approached me.

 2        Q.   When they approached you, did you have a conversation with them?

 3        A.   Yes, they asked me to identify myself.

 4        Q.   Did they discuss with you the fact that you were suspected of

 5     cheating at dice?

 6        A.   Not that I recall, although the issue may have been raised by

 7     them later or someone else.

 8        Q.   Is it your testimony as you sit here --

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I appreciate the time, Your Honour, but I'm

10     almost done with my examination.

11        Q.   Is it your testimony as you sit here at this time that you were

12     unclear as to why you were being approached by the police at the casino,

13     and they just came up and asked you to identify yourself?

14        A.   Yes, because I was -- I was -- yes, I was quite upset by whatever

15     the issue was that they were trying to raise with me.

16        Q.   And as you sit here today, it's your testimony there was no

17     discussion at all with regard to any gambling activities that you were

18     engaged in, but rather that the police just came up to you and asked you

19     to identify yourself; is that right?

20        A.   At the time that I was approached, I'm quite certain that that's

21     what they asked me to do.  As to whatever else may have been discussed,

22     Mr. Guy-Smith, I'm not aware, and in fact whatever else may have been

23     said in the press, I'm not aware of.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I see.  This would be an appropriate time.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 8199

 1             As always I must remind you that during the adjournment, you may

 2     not discuss the case with anybody else, and you shall not do so until you

 3     are excused from further testifying.

 4             The matter stands adjourned to Thursday the 16th of July at

 5     quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.  Court adjourned.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of July,

 8                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.