Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8200

 1                           Thursday, 16 July, 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.13 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  And good morning to everybody down in New York.

 7     Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will you please call the case, Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

11     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

12     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have appearances for

14     today starting with the Prosecution.

15             MS. BOLTON:  Good afternoon.  It's Barney Thomas, Lorna Bolton,

16     and Inger de Ru for the Prosecution.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And for the Defence.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  Daniela Tasic,

19     Chad Mair, Kate Marshall, Milos Androvic, Tina Drolec, Novak Lukic and

20     Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of Mr. Perisic.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  May the record show that the

22     Chamber is sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis this afternoon as Judge Picard

23     is held up in another case.

24             Mr. Sacirbey, good morning to you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Good morning.

Page 8201

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to remind you that you are still bound the

 2     declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the

 3     truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  MUHAMED SACIRBEY [Resumed]

 5                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 6             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honour.  May I just have an indulgence.

 8     I'm having a technical issue, I think I've done something wrong with the

 9     computer.  I just need a moment.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have a moment, ma'am.  Will you please give

11     her a moment, Mr. Guy-Smith.

12             Do you need assistance, Madam Bolton?

13             MS. BOLTON:  I think I'm going to be okay, I just think I went

14     awry in getting into LiveNote, and I just need to retrace.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If it's of any help to Ms. Bolton, I think as

17     they say in Canada, I pass the witness.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

19             Madam Bolton, any re-examination?

20             MS. BOLTON:  There will be, but I still have a technical

21     difficulty here.  I'm still not to LiveNote, Your Honour.  Again, if I

22     could have one moment, please.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do have a moment, Madam Bolton.

24             JUDGE DAVID:  Witness Sacirbey, you refer in your testimony of

25     the 16 June as well as yesterday that you acted as representative of your

Page 8202

 1     country in proceedings before the International Court of Justice in

 2     relation to the case concerning application of the convention on the

 3     prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide; is that correct?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] That is correct.  From 1993 to the

 5     year 2000.

 6             JUDGE DAVID:  The Court adopted a resolution that you had already

 7     mentioned also on the 8th April 1993, resolution on provisional measures.

 8     And part of that resolution was quoted in Security Council Resolution

 9     819; is that correct?  Paragraph 2.  Do you recall that?  Resolution 819.

10     Taking note that the International Court of Justice in its order of

11     8 April in the case concerning application of the convention on the

12     prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide, Bosnia and

13     Herzegovina versus Yugoslavia, Serbia and Montenegro, unanimously

14     indicated as a provisional measure that the government of the Federal

15     Republic of Yugoslavia, Serbia, and Montenegro should immediately, in

16     pursuance of its undertaking in the convention on the prevention and

17     punishment of the crime of genocide of 8 December 1948, take all measures

18     within its power to prevent the commission of the crime of genocide.  In

19     relation to the resolution my question to you is this:  In paragraph 12

20     the resolution said:

21             "Decides to send as soon as possible a mission of members of the

22     Security Council to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to ascertain the

23     situation and report thereon to the Security Council."

24             My question is this:  Do you recall the countries that of

25     permanent members of the Security Council that have been part of the

Page 8203

 1     mission according to paragraph 12?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I believe I do, Your Honour.

 3     The team was led by Ambassador Diego Arria, at that time the permanent

 4     representative of Venezuela, and the other countries that were

 5     represented, if I may, I may not recall all the names; but I believe it

 6     was Pakistan, the Russian Federation, France, Hungary, and I believe I'm

 7     leaving one country out.

 8             JUDGE DAVID:  That was my only question.  I just wanted to check

 9     if you recall the members of that mission establishing paragraph 12 of

10     Resolution 819.  Thank you very much.

11             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] My pleasure, Your Honour.  Thank

12     you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did I give you enough time, Madam Bolton?

14             MS. BOLTON:  You did, Your Honour.  I didn't do very well in

15     computer science, I have to admit, so I'm all right now.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you okay now?

17             MS. BOLTON:  I am.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  The witness is yours.

19             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

20                           Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:

21        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Sacirbey I have a few questions arising

22     from --

23        A.   Good afternoon.

24        Q.   Sorry, I forgot about the time delay.  I have a few questions for

25     you, and the first arises from some questioning at page 7624 of the

Page 8204

 1     transcript, and this is in relation to a line of questioning about

 2     Resolution 713.  Do you recall that line of questioning, sir?

 3        A.   There was quite a bit of it but I do recall, Ms. Bolton.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me for a moment, I'm having technical

 5     difficulties.  I can't hear Mr. Sacirbey.  If he could try again,

 6     perhaps.

 7             MS. BOLTON:

 8        Q.   Mr. Sacirbey, could you say testing 1, 2, 3.  We are having some

 9     technical problems in the courtroom.

10        A.   Yes, testing 1, 2, 3.  1, 2, 3.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Perfect.  Thank you so much.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Sacirbey.

13             MS. BOLTON:

14        Q.   All right, sir, going back to this area of questioning, there

15     were two things that you commented on, at pages 7624 and 7721 of the

16     transcript.  You had indicated in questioning that there were states that

17     ultimately took a view that Resolution 713 wasn't binding on

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and then in questioning about this area, you gave the

19     following response to Mr. Guy-Smith, you said:

20             "Well, you are speaking, of course, sometimes we speak of the

21     Security Council, sometimes we speak of the UN.  As you will recall, in

22     the General Assembly starting December 1992, there was a resolution of

23     the General Assembly that specifically recommended that, in fact, the

24     Security Council should, in fact, make it clear that Bosnia-Herzegovina

25     was not bound by Security Council Resolution 713."

Page 8205

 1             MS. BOLTON:  I'm going to ask that document 65 ter 9090 be

 2     displayed.

 3        Q.   And sir, this is going to appear in e-court for you.

 4        A.   Thank you.

 5        Q.   Are you able to see the document, sir?

 6        A.   Not yet.  We only see Your Honour there.  There.

 7        Q.   You've got it?  First of all, do you recognise whether this --

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Is this a document of the General Assembly, sir?

10        A.   Yes, it is.  It's a reference to the resolution ultimately

11     adopted on the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12        Q.   Okay, if I could ask you -- I'm going to ask that we go to page,

13     I think it's 3 in e-court.  And if you could focus on numbered

14     paragraph 7 when you do the expansion, please.

15        A.   A little more, please.  Yes, we see it now.  A little better

16     focus.

17        Q.   Sir, are you able to read it?

18        A.   Just a little more clarity.  It's large enough, but it needs more

19     clarity.  That should be good enough.

20        Q.   Okay.  Looking at paragraph 7, it indicates that the

21     General Assembly is urging the Security Council to do certain things, and

22     then at paragraph (b) it reads:

23             "To exempt the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina from the arms

24     embargo as imposed on the former Yugoslavia under Security Council

25     Resolution 713."

Page 8206

 1             And my question is whether this is the resolution that you were

 2     referring to in cross-examination?

 3        A.   It is, and Ms. Bolton, I think it's also the context in which we

 4     were referring to the non-application of the arms embargo in respect of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In other words, it was obviously a failure to

 6     enforce international security in the context of this conflict and to

 7     that extent Bosnia-Herzegovina also had the right and the obligation to

 8     defends itself.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MS. BOLTON:  Can I ask that that be marked as an exhibit,

11     Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Its admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

13     number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes

15     Exhibit P2617.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             Yes, Madam Bolton.

18             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, thank you.

19        Q.   Sir, at page 7741 of the transcript, you indicated that you had a

20     conversation with Mr. Carl Bildt the day that Srebrenica was falling, and

21     you indicated further that at that time he told you that neither

22     Srebrenica nor Zepa nor Gorazde would be defended, do you recall that

23     evidence, sir?

24        A.   Yes, I do, Ms. Bolton.

25        Q.   Did either the United Nations forces on the ground or NATO defend

Page 8207

 1     Zepa?

 2        A.   As far as I am aware, they did not.

 3        Q.   Or Gorazde?

 4        A.   In fact -- well, Zepa, in fact, was overrun with, as I know of no

 5     intervention on the part of NATO.  To the extent the UN peacekeepers

 6     undertook any measures, they certainly were not either effective nor in

 7     any way confronted the attack.  Once the attack upon Gorazde would have

 8     proceeded, in fact, at that time the evidence regarding the massacres of

 9     Srebrenica came out.  And so I'm not at all certain that, in fact, the

10     attack upon Gorazde could have proceeded as would have been envisioned.

11        Q.   Okay.  Move to a different topic, sir.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Could I have displayed, please, I think, sir, in the

13     binder that Defence provided to you, there was a document that was

14     discussed and I think you'll find at tab 34 of that binder, and it -- the

15     document ID number is ID 030648.

16        Q.   Should be a meeting of the Security Council 9th November, 1994.

17        A.   Yes, I have that in front of me.

18        Q.   You may recall counsel took you to a passage dealing with

19     UNPROFOR providing fuel to the Serbian forces based on the ostensible

20     purpose of clearing the snow off of the roads.  Do you recall that line

21     of questioning?

22        A.   Yes, I do, Ms. Bolton.

23        Q.   This document wasn't tendered by the Defence, and I wonder if you

24     could just take a look at it and confirm for me if this is, in fact, an

25     official transcript of the proceedings of that date?

Page 8208

 1        A.   Yes, I believe this is it.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If it's of any assistance, Ms. Bolton, and you

 3     would like to tender that document, we certainly have no objection.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, I will be making that request in a

 5     moment.

 6        Q.   If I could just refer you, sir, to e-court page 7 of that

 7     document, which is page ID 030654.  And looking at the -- sorry, if you

 8     would scroll up a little bit, please.  Thank you.  Perfect.  The

 9     right-side column of this document, you'll see there's a paragraph that

10     refers to the fact -- starts with the word:

11             "Yesterday, as was mentioned in this council, four children and

12     women were murdered in front of a school-yard in Sarajevo as a result of

13     the now intensified shelling of the city of Sarajevo and its civilian

14     population."

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would indicate that the matter which is being

16     discussed right now is outside of the cross-examination.

17             MS. BOLTON:  I simply want the witness to confirm that this is

18     part of the speech that was delivered and this is matter that my

19     friend -- a speech my friend went into in chief.  He doesn't get to pick

20     and choose which parts of the speech are discussed.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are allowed to continue, Madam.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Just for purposes of clarity of the record,

23     Your Honour, what I did was I showed him a particular passage for

24     purposes of refreshing his recollection.  And only for those purposes and

25     for no other purposes.

Page 8209

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fair enough.  But it's the same document.  You may

 2     proceed, ma'am.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  It is.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   And, sir, on that same column a little farther down, one

 5     paragraph down, what we were looking a it says:

 6             "We now find ourselves in a situation where once again Sarajevo

 7     is being shelled; our young children are being murdered on our streets;

 8     Serbian aircraft are once again flying through our skies like birds of

 9     prey."

10             Does that speech, sir, accurately reflect the situation in

11     Sarajevo at the time?

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's a totally different question, that speech

13     [Overlapping speakers] accurately - excuse me - that speech may well

14     accurately say what he said at the time, but now she is asking for an

15     opinion on his behalf as to whether or not they were birds of prey and

16     whether, in fact, there was any violation of the air-space at all, and in

17     the absence of predicate facts it's improper, and once again, it's

18     certainly outside of the scope of cross-examination.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

20             MS. BOLTON:  That's fine, I'll withdraw the question,

21     Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MS. BOLTON:  If you could turn, brief indulgence, Your Honour.

24     Too much paper, Your Honour, I'm losing track of my place.  Sorry.

25        Q.   If you could turn in that same document, sir, to pages in e-court

Page 8210

 1     it's pages 12.  And in the written copy, sir, it's ID 030659.  And if we

 2     could scroll to the very bottom of the page for people in e-court.  You

 3     were asked --

 4        A.   Ms. Bolton, just a brief indulgence, I don't have that ID number

 5     in front of me.  I have page numbers in front of me.

 6        Q.   You have, like, the small numbers, 46, 47, those numbers?

 7        A.   Yes.  My page -- the speech starts on page 36.

 8        Q.   Yes, and I'm asking you --

 9        A.   Before that is -- before that it is Mr. Pale [phoen], Ambassador

10     Pale of Argentina who speaks.

11        Q.   Do you have page 46 a speech that follows you by the ambassador

12     from Morocco?

13        A.   I believe I do, yes, I do.

14        Q.   Okay.  In cross-examination, sir, do you recall a line of

15     questioning to the effect that one of the reasons some of the

16     United Nations member states opposed the lifting of the arms embargo was

17     that adding more weapons to the area would simply pour gasoline on the

18     fire?

19        A.   Yes, I do, Ms. Bolton.

20        Q.   Did any countries espouse a contrary view to that?

21        A.   Yes, many did.

22        Q.   If I could ask you to look at page 47.  This is part of the -- if

23     we could move forward in e-court to the next page, please.  Fourth

24     paragraph down, it's a paragraph that says:

25             "The de jure lifting of the arms embargo would be effectively

Page 8211

 1     implemented only in six months' time, in accordance with the proposal

 2     made last September by the Bosnian President, if the Bosnian Serbs were

 3     continuing to reject the peace plan presented by the -- if by then, the

 4     Bosnian Serbs were continuing to reject the peace plan presented by the

 5     Contact Group."

 6        A.   Yes, I note that.  Of course, this was in connection with the --

 7     a proposal made by President Izetbegovic at the time, that the lifting of

 8     the arms embargo could be delayed by a few months to give the Serbian

 9     side the opportunity to accept what was then the Contact Group peace

10     plan.

11        Q.   Sorry --

12        A.   Otherwise an indefinite application of the arms embargo would in

13     fact in some way or another ratify the continuing military superiority at

14     least in terms of weapons of the forces Serbian forces.

15        Q.   Sorry, sir, there was a second passage I wanted to read to you

16     before you commented.  And the second passage --

17        A.   Sorry about that.

18        Q.   It's okay.  The time delay is difficult.  The second passage is

19     then on page 48 in your copy in the next page in e-court.  If we could

20     scroll down.  That's fine, thank you.  Looking at the left column there

21     is a paragraph that says:

22             "This de jure lifting of the embargo, by putting an end the

23     military superiority of the Bosnian Serb, could turn out to be a very

24     effective means of dissuasion that would lead the Bosnian Serbs accept

25     the Contact Group's peace plan."

Page 8212

 1             My question is:  First of all, was Morocco one of countries then

 2     that took a contrary view to the view that lifting the embargo would add

 3     fuel to the fire?

 4        A.   That is correct, Ms. Bolton.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Can that document be marked as an exhibit, please,

 6     Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, you gave us three ID number, ID

 8     030648, ID 030654 and 030659.  Do you want them given separate --

 9             MS. BOLTON:  No, the entire proceedings, Your Honour, actually I

10     think are a 22-page document which reflect the proceedings on --

11             THE REGISTRAR:  [Via videolink] Your Honours, we've lost sound

12     from The Hague.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, can you hear me now?  Was I too far from the

14     microphone?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you hear us now?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  [Via videolink] Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We cannot hear you from The Hague.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You cannot hear us.

20             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink]  Now we can.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  [Via videolink]  Now we can.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now you can.  Okay.  Thank you so much.

23             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We can hear you now.  Thank you,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

Page 8213

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If it's of any help, the ID number of this

 2     document is 1D030648.  The entire document is, as represented by

 3     Ms. Bolton, 22 pages.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So do you want --

 5             MS. BOLTON:  The entire document to be made an exhibit please,

 6     Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  ID 030648 is admitted into evidence.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  [Via videolink] Your Honours, we seem to have

 9     lost sound again.  We could not hear you from The Hague.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You don't hear me now?  Can you hear me now?

11     Testing, testing, can't hear me?

12             MS. BOLTON:  Hello?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Hello, can you hear us?  No, they can't.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this whole 22-page document is

15     admitted into evidence as OTP Exhibit P2618.  Thank you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Can you hear us, Your Honour?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We can hear you, but I don't know whether you can

18     hear us.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's get out of the movie and take adjournment.

21     We will come back and when we are reconnected.

22                           --- Break taken at 2.44 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 3.01 p.m.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

Page 8214

 1        Q.   Mr. Sacirbey, I have just a few more questions for you.  Sir, you

 2     were asked a series of questions by Mr. Guy-Smith yesterday about

 3     allegations of criminal wrong-doing on your part dating back to 1980 and

 4     the year 2000.  Were you convicted of either of the incidents you were

 5     discussing with Mr. Guy-Smith?

 6        A.   In fact, I've never even been charged.  As it to the events in

 7     1980, I went back and tried to refresh my memory.  Actually, if I'm not

 8     mistaken, that arrest took place for resisting arrest, and I subsequently

 9     ended up initiating proceedings against the police force.

10        Q.   Okay.  And finally, sir, I want to go to a -- two documents you

11     were shown yesterday.  I only have to show you one of them, I think.

12     Page 8142 of cross-examination, you were -- Mr. Guy-Smith put to you part

13     of a document which was paragraph 19 where it was indicating that the

14     border control authority was going to be given -- exercise its right to

15     go wherever it wishes without any form of prior notification.

16             MS. BOLTON:  I'd like to have displayed Defence Exhibit -- I

17     believe it was 156.  Mr. Registrar, I'll be looking for paragraph 20 of

18     that document.

19             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Okay.  Thank you.

20             MS. BOLTON:

21        Q.   Looking at midway through that paragraph, sir, there is an

22     indication that Yugoslav army liaison officer requested that the head of

23     the sector notify him of the movements of the mission's mobile patrols in

24     this region in order that he could provide adequate security cover.  Was

25     that requirement in keeping with what had been contemplated in

Page 8215

 1     paragraph 19?

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That requires an opinion on behalf of this

 3     gentleman who is not able to give one, outside of -- certainly outside of

 4     expertise.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does this require expert --

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry [indiscernible] as a matter of fact, it

 7     may or may not, but it's certainly outside of any permissible opinion

 8     evidence and its irrelevant, and there's no foundation upon which he can

 9     make such an opinion.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, do you have a response?

11             MS. BOLTON:  I don't believe it calls for an opinion,

12     Your Honour.  My friends put to the witness yesterday that it was

13     contemplated that the border control would have no requirement of giving

14     prior notification.  Don't think you need to be an expert to then read or

15     understand what has been indicated in Defence Exhibit 156 and comment on

16     whether that is in keeping or not.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see your standing, Mr. Guy-Smith.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, I was -- I was going to, then I stopped for a

19     minute because you were about to speak.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then the question will be allowed.  In

21     fact, you are saying this topic was discussed yesterday.

22             MS. BOLTON:  It was.

23             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Ms. Bolton, I believe this was, in

24     fact, a matter of significant discussion because it was inconsistent with

25     the methodology that was envisioned by the provisions that were discussed

Page 8216

 1     yesterday.  So there was an inconsistency between the theory and the

 2     application and this, of course, dealt with the application of the border

 3     control measures.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, sir, I have nothing further for you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Bolton.

 6             Mr. Guy-Smith, at the end of your cross-examination Judge David

 7     asked a question.  Do you have any questions arising from that question?

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do not.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't know if you have any questions or not,

11     Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't have any questions.  You don't have --

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm not asking to do anything other than as a

14     matter of courtesy.  I'd like to inform both the Chamber as well as the

15     Prosecution that we will be moving to withdraw the appeal that heretofore

16     had been filed with regard to the 90(E) issue because we are factually

17     satisfied with the answers that were received, and with regard to the

18     principle of law that exists, we don't believe that that needs any

19     further litigation.  So I'm saying that because I don't know whether or

20     not the folks across the aisle are in the process of hurriedly trying to

21     put together a response or not.  So I want to give them that

22     information so that they could put that into their repository of a good

23     thing.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

25             Needless to say, Madam Bolton, you don't have any questions

Page 8217

 1     arising from the Judge's question because you may have covered it, if you

 2     did want to, in your re-examination.

 3             Mr. Sacirbey, at long last we have arrive.  Thank you so much for

 4     the time you took to come and testify.  This brings us now to the end of

 5     your testimony.  You may -- you are now excused and you may stand down.

 6     I hope you can find time to attend to the business you wanted to attend

 7     to today.  Thank you so much.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And thanks to all of you out in New York,

10     Mr. Guirguis and Mr. Registrar.  Thank you.  You may stand down.

11             MR. GUIRGUIS:  Thank you, Your Honour, it's been a pleasure.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

15             MS. BOLTON:  I don't believe we have another witness until

16     Monday, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Monday is the 20th, then we stand adjourned to

18     Monday the 20th at 9.00 in courtroom II.  Court adjourned.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.09 p.m.

20                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day of July,

21                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.