1 Wednesday, 2 September 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.41 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom. Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon in
8 and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor
9 versus Momcilo Perisic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Could we have appearances
11 for the day, starting with Prosecution, please.
12 MR. HARMON: Yes, good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
13 counsel, everyone in the courtroom. Mark Harmon, Salvatore Cannata, and
14 Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. And for the Defence.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
17 afternoon to everybody in the courtroom. Mr. Perisic today is
18 represented by case manager, Daniela Tasic; our legal assistants,
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic. And just start by
22 apologising for starting a little late. We thought the swearing-in would
23 take only 15 minute, it took more than it should have.
24 Mr. Harmon.
25 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. Before we begin -- first of all,
1 Mr. Cannata will lead the witness, but before we begin, there is a motion
2 in limine before the Chamber, and it was filed last night. I received a
3 copy of it myself last night. I frankly do not believe there are any
4 issues that the Court needs to address in that motion. The parties are
5 agreed that the limits that relate to the agreement have been clearly
6 defined in that agreement. Those are that the --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me, are you responding to the motion?
8 MR. HARMON: No, I am -- I'm just saying the reason I'm not
9 responding is because the parties have, first of all, discussed the
10 matter; two, there is not any issue as to the parameters of what the
11 Prosecution can lead in respect of the facts. So I am giving
12 Your Honours an explanation as to why I have not responded in writing
13 from last night. I do not believe at this point the Court needs to
14 decide anything on this motion. That is a the first thing I'd like to
15 are inform the Court of.
16 The second thing I'd like to inform the Court of, is that in the
17 course of discussions that were stimulated by that filing last night,
18 counsel for the Defence and I met this morning and discussed or discussed
19 certain items that related to the agreement that related to Srebrenica.
20 There were certain facts that related to that specifically in relation to
21 the third fact that dealt with the busing of civilians from the --
22 Potocari. We have reached, amongst ourselves, an additional agreement
23 that we will be submitting to the Court in writing and asking the Court
24 to adopt those -- the additional agreement. The additional agreement
25 deals with the nature of the transfer, that is, it was forced. And so we
1 will be filing that. The result of and the effect of that new agreement
2 is it has narrowed the amount of evidence we intend to lead through
3 certain witnesses who we have identified and will be calling including
4 the first witness today.
5 So I just will have a truncated examination today by virtue of
6 that agreement that we have reached.
7 Now, Mr. Cannata will lead the witness, Your Honour. I have
8 nothing further to add.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank Mr. Harmon. Mr. Lukic. Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I've been asked to deal with this matter. In
11 large measure that which Mr. Harmon has said is accurate, the motion
12 limine he filed was directed towards three witnesses. The first witness
13 is the witness who will be testifying shortly, and, in that regard, I
14 believe that Mr. Harmon has accurately indicated that we have come to an
15 additional agreement which will be found and will be identified most
16 probably as 3.1(b) dealing with the issue of movement.
17 With regard to the remaining two witnesses, whose names I will
18 not mention at the present time because I'm unclear about their status as
19 to whether or not they will be protected or not protected, I believe that
20 we once again are close, if not in fact there, with regard to both of
21 those witnesses. However, I'm hesitant to be quite as bold as Mr. Harmon
22 is with regard to there being no remaining issues whatsoever. I think we
23 are probably 99 per cent there, but I'm not positive that we are a
24 hundred per cent there. And I just wish to interpose a cautionary note
25 in the event that there are any unfortunate misunderstandings or
1 differing views with regard to the extent of the evidence to be led now
2 that we have worked out a number of matters that heretofore have not been
3 worked out.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, you confirm that insofar as the
5 witness who is about to testify is concerned, the parties are agreed and
6 the Chamber need not give any decision on that issue?
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 Mr. Cannata.
10 MR. CANNATA: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Before I call the
11 next witness, I have a preliminary matter that I'd like to discussion in
12 private session.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
14 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 8865-8869 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Cannata.
8 MR. CANNATA: My apologies, Your Honour.
9 Q. Sir, did you and your family at some point in time on the 11th of
10 July, 1995, flee from Kutezero?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Why did you flee?
13 A. We fled from the Chetniks.
14 Q. Where did you go when you and members of your family fled from
16 A. We went to a village called Vihor.
17 Q. And where did you go afterwards?
18 A. Potocari, on the following day, and that's where I spent the
19 night. And that night I went down there.
20 Q. Sir, when I asked you why did you flee from Kutezero, you told me
21 that you fled from the Chetniks.
22 A. From the Chetniks because I know my village was attacked on the
23 3rd of May, 1992, anybody who came across in the village, they
24 slaughtered them, they slit their throats, that's why I escaped together
25 with the children.
1 Q. Thank you very much, sir. And just for the record, what
2 ethnicity are you?
3 A. I'm a Muslim.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, let's go back to the answer that you gave
5 me. You told me that you went to Potocari and you spent the night there.
6 A. Yes, two nights in Potocari.
7 Q. Okay. Now, I'm talking about the first night. Where did you
8 spend the night in Potocari? Is there a particular location where you
9 were at the time?
10 A. In the factory called Cinkara, the zinc plant.
11 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, apart from yourself and members of your
12 family, were there any other people gathered at Cinkara, the zinc
14 A. There were thousands of people there. Thousands and thousands.
15 Q. Can you tell us what do these people look to you?
16 A. Which people, the ones that were with me? They were all
17 civilians, both familiar faces and unfamiliar faces, women, children,
18 young people, people of all ages.
19 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Now, I'd like to draw your attention
20 to a particular episode on the 12th July, 1995. And I'm referring to the
21 killings that took place in the area between the Cinkara, the zinc
22 factory, and Aljo's house. Can you tell the Court what you saw that day.
23 A. On that day, the situation became calmer, and we came out of
24 Cinkara, people were in the woods above Cinkara. I sat with Dzemal Karic
25 from Kasaba. There were a lot of us, and then we saw Chetniks. We
1 started hiding under --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down. The
3 interpreters could not follow at this pace.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please speak slowly, because as you
5 speak, some people -- just hold on, please. Just hold on. I'm still
6 talking. As you speak, some people are interpreting to us what you are
7 saying because we do not understand your language, so you got to give
8 them an opportunity to translate what you are saying before you say --
9 you go on further to speak. Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people fled to Cinkara and then
11 Chetniks followed them with the guns. Dzemal Karic and I, we hid by the
12 shed and he came with four men and he took them to the house, to Alija's
13 house where the fence was broken down, and they made a raft and then the
14 Chetniks were there. He took one of them by the hands, the other one by
15 his hands as well, they put their heads down and they cut off their heads
16 with axes, and they did the same thing with the two other people and the
17 other men came back carrying his rifle above his head and they proceeded
18 in this fashion and then one of them had an empty cigarette pack,
20 Q. Sorry, let me stop you here so that we can follow better your
21 account, your story. Okay. I just need you to pause, and I will ask you
22 to clarify a few points, then you can carry on with your story, but we
23 need to, first of all, allow the interpreter to interpret your words,
24 otherwise we can not follow you.
25 Now, having said that, let me stop you here and let me ask you a
1 few questions about what you just said to us. Okay? First of all, you
2 mentioned that at some point Chetniks arrived there?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, what kind of clothes these individuals were wearing?
5 A. Camouflage uniform, multicolour one, military.
6 Q. Are you able to tell us to which army they belonged to?
7 A. Serbian.
8 Q. Do you mean the Bosnian Serb Army?
9 A. Uzice Corps was there. They had crossed nearby Nabasta [phoen].
10 There were people from Serbia
11 Q. I'm referring to the people who did the killings at Alija's
12 house, were they -- were they wearing --
13 A. The uniform was a camouflage one. I don't know whether they were
14 from Bosnia
15 young people, clean shaven, and they had multicoloured camouflage
16 uniform. I didn't know where they had come from. I didn't come close to
17 them, and I couldn't tell.
18 Q. Very well. Fair enough, Mr. Witness.
19 Secondly, if I can have a moment to stop the transcript and see
20 if I have a moment, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do have a moment, sir.
22 MR. CANNATA:
23 Q. Sir, you also mentioned you were not alone, but you were with a
24 man by the name of Dzemal Karic?
25 A. Yes, yes, Dzemal, yes.
1 Q. So what did you and Mr. Karic do when the Chetniks, as you
2 defined them, entered the Cinkara compound?
3 A. Well, we hid by the shed up there, and we watched what they were
4 doing. We watched from there.
5 Q. And what did you observe from your point of view from the shed
6 where you were hiding?
7 A. We saw the Chetnik who was behind us and who chased the people
8 from the woods. He had four people in front of him and he took them to
9 Alija's house, and we watched what they were going to do. We saw that
10 they put some planks together to resemble a raft, and there was six,
11 seven, maybe up to nine soldiers in a camouflage uniform. And then the
12 two that were down there, they took two men, they took them by their arms
13 and then the third one grabbed their hair and they put their heads down
14 on rafts and chopped their heads off. And then they started throwing the
15 heads on a pile and ordered the other one to do the same with the bodies,
16 and then the first man came back and bringing new people and they just
17 kept repeating this.
18 A truck came and then it had a tarpaulin cover and they would
19 kill two men and then kill another two men, and they would pile up the
20 bodies. And then they started putting hay on top of it, and then the
21 truck drove away and came back again.
22 Dzemal had a pack of Sarajevo Drina cigarettes, and he had a small pen,
23 and he said to me, Why don't you add this up, I can't write anymore.
24 How many are they there? He said 83. And I knew a lot of (redacted)
2 (redacted) him.
3 Q. Sir, let me stop you here. I will need a redaction of page 14,
4 line 17 and 18, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why?
6 MR. CANNATA: Because that name, which is not transcribed but it
7 will be, I guess, at a later stage, might concur to identify the witness
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: On mine --
10 MR. CANNATA: I see syncrony [sic] problems, Your Honours, I
11 think you --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see that line. Is it line 19?
13 MR. CANNATA: Yes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May that be page 14, either line 17, 18 or 19, can
15 it be redacted, please, where the name appears. I would like you to
16 clear some of the problems that come from your witness's testimony, you
17 know, and I'll give you an example. That very part that you are
18 referring to. He says:
19 "Dzemal had a pack of Sarajevo Drina cigarettes and he had a
20 small pen and he said to me, Why don't you add this up, I can't write
21 anymore, how many are they there? He said 83."
22 Now, if he is asking how many are they there, it can't be him
23 answering that 83. Okay. So can you clear who is asking what and who is
25 MR. CANNATA:
1 Q. Sir --
2 A. No, you did not understand me right. It wasn't him counting. He
3 just said to me that he wanted me to add up how many people had been
4 taken away, and he took the cigarette pack and a pencil, and he added up
5 and he said 83 had been expelled. And then he had nothing else to write
6 on. We stopped counting and the Chetniks continued chasing Muslims; is
7 it clear now?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is clear except that you now say 83 had been
9 expelled. I don't know, what does expelled mean in context? Because I
10 thought we were talking about people who had been killed and been loaded
11 in a truck. Now, you don't expel a corpse.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of them kept driving people out
13 of the Cinkara compound to the slaughter site where they killed them,
14 four, five, six, seven at the most. He kept driving them out to the
15 slaughtering spot. Just like they slaughter cattle, this is how the
16 Serbian soldiers kept slaughtering the old people, the infirm people, and
17 so on. Is it clear now?
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Relatively.
19 MR. CANNATA:
20 Q. Sir, let me remind you of one thing that we need to ask you,
21 okay. We work by the interpretation, and we do need time to have the
22 interpretation carried out to us, and so, therefore, we need you to speak
23 slowly and possibly to make short statements. That would make our life
24 much easier in court. Can you do that?
25 A. Yes, please.
1 Q. Thank you very much. Now, coming back to the question asked by
2 His Honour Judge Moloto, when you said expelled, do I understand you
3 correctly that you mean the dead bodies were expelled, were taken out of
4 the Alija's house through the track; is that what you are saying?
5 A. Not from Alija's house. They were within the Cinkara compound
6 and then the scaffolding, this raft, it was between Alija's house and
7 Cinkara. And then from the corn field, you couldn't see it either from
8 the Cinkara side or from Alija's house. I was on the side and this is
9 how I was able to see. They were driven out of Cinkara. They were taken
10 out. Any way you wish to understand this. One of them was chasing them,
11 driving them out, and the others were there slaughtering them. Not from
12 the Alija's house, but from Cinkara.
13 Q. Now that's clear to me at least, Your Honour.
14 And these people we are talking about, I mean, those who were
15 taken out of the Cinkara, were they civilians?
16 A. All civilians.
17 Q. Now, you told us that at some point the -- let me rephrase that.
18 Did you eventually kept count of how many people were killed
20 A. No. Because my friend added up to 83 and there were several more
21 batches, but we stopped counting. So there was more than 83. There were
22 maybe additional two batches, but it became dark soon.
23 Q. And how did this adding up process work? How did it add up?
24 A. Well, it was happening in front of us. There was just a fence
25 between us. We were hiding in the grass and they were chasing them,
1 driving them out and we just used our fingers. You can count any which
2 way you want.
3 Q. Let me re-ask you the question. You said that you and your
4 friend added up to 83 bodies and then you stopped counting.
5 A. We didn't count all the time. First they had the first batch and
6 there were four them. My friend took a pen and wrote down four and then
7 there was five and then there was six, so the smallest batch had four
8 people and the largest batch had seven people. He wrote down with a pen
9 on the cigarette pack the numbers, and then his pen stopped writing and
10 he said, I want to add up how many were driven out altogether. And he
11 started adding up the figures and the total was 83.
12 We stopped counting. We stopped writing after that, and they
13 kept on driving people out.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, do you remember what the men doing the
15 killings were dressed like?
16 A. Camouflage uniforms. Military clothes.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, I stopped you a few minutes ago when you were
18 talking about the last batch of people being slaughtered. Can you start
19 again your account of what happened from this moment on.
20 A. The last group was not slaughtered. I recognised (redacted)
22 All of sudden there was a lot of noise from the slaughtering spot. All
23 of them came back. There were seven in that batch, in that group. They
24 entered Cinkara. We got up and we went down to the Muslims, to the
25 civilians. I found (redacted) there, he was holding his child in his arms
1 and I told him, I thought that you had been killed, you had been slaughtered,
2 and he said, No, he didn't, An officer took me out, saved me. He
3 mentioned the name, but I forgot the name, and this officer came and he
4 chased the Chetniks away. He told them, What are you doing to these
5 people? And these people were then taken back to Cinkara. That's what
6 he told me.
7 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, sir, first of all --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said that that officer
10 had admonished the Chetniks or attacked the Chetniks, could he please
11 confirm that, I don't think that this was recorded.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he admonished them. We -- he
13 heard noise and (redacted) told us that the officer had admonished the
14 soldiers. (redacted) even told me his name. I forgot, but the officer was
15 cross and wanted to know what they were doing with all those people.
16 MR. CANNATA:
17 Q. Sir, did you see that officer yourself?
18 A. No, I didn't. Because as soon as --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: (redacted). He didn't see this.
20 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honour. Can I also point
21 Your Honours' attention to another redaction needed. It is at page 14,
22 line 19 to 20. Once again, a relative of this witness has been
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, while talking about that, there are a few
25 other names that have been mentioned. You don't want them redacted?
1 MR. CANNATA: If I can take advantage of the next break,
2 Your Honour, to go through the transcript and see whether it would be
3 safe to have them --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That will be too late.
5 MR. CANNATA: That will be too late, I guess. I kept an eye on
6 it and I don't believe we need any redaction. There's only --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: When he first mentioned his brother-in-law, the
8 brother-in-law's name was spelled starting with an H, and the next time
9 he mentioned it, it started with an R. And I'm not quite sure what is
11 MR. CANNATA: I think it might have been corrected meanwhile. I
12 may be wrong, are we talking about the same page, 14, line 19.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. May we then, for the sake of precaution, we
14 have got only four minutes to break, can all those pages where those
15 names are mentioned please be redacted, Madam Registrar.
16 Okay, you may proceed, sir.
17 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
18 Q. Sir, let me ask you a follow-up question --
19 MR. CANNATA: Actually, can we go into private session.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are in open session. May the Chamber please
21 move into private session.
22 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Cannata.
10 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, just to find out what the time-frame
11 will be for this session --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just so that we go back to normal time, we'll have
13 to break at --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the presiding Judge, please.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Just so we go back to normal time, I'm
16 going to suggest we break at half past 3 and come back at 4.00.
17 MR. CANNATA: I think that will be a convenient time then,
18 Your Honour, before I move to the next --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can't use those three minutes remaining?
20 MR. CANNATA: I can, yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
22 MR. CANNATA:
23 Q. Sir, what -- after -- when you -- okay. Let me rephrase the
24 question. You told us that once the killings have stopped, you went to
25 see somebody at Cinkara, the survivors at Cinkara factory. What happened
1 to those who committed the killings? What happened to them?
2 A. They disappeared. They didn't come to where we were at Cinkara.
3 As to where they went, I don't know. But there were others in Cinkara.
4 They were just walking around.
5 Q. And can you tell us what these others -- other individuals were
6 wearing at the time?
7 A. Camouflage uniforms as well. Military camouflage uniforms.
8 Q. Same camouflage uniforms as those who committed the killings? If
9 you know.
10 A. Yes, same. Yes.
11 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much. Your Honour, I know that I
12 didn't use all my three minutes, but, before I move to my next topic, I
13 think it would be a convenient time.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 4.00. Court
16 --- Recess taken at 3.28 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Cannata.
19 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Can I have doc
20 ID 0051-0346 on the e-court, please.
21 Q. Sir, have you brought your reading glasses today with you?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Reading glasses?
24 MR. CANNATA: Reading
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm told that under that number there are two
2 documents. One is the witness's statement and some other document.
3 Which one do you want?
4 MR. CANNATA: I'm looking for the photograph, and to be precise,
5 the witness statement, I think, is 0346 letter A. But anyway, I'm
6 looking for the photo, Your Honour.
7 Q. Sir, can you look at your monitor and tell me whether you see a
8 photo there?
9 A. Yes, I can see Alija's shed where I was. And I can see it even
10 without my reading glasses.
11 Q. And just to be perfectly clear, is that the shed where you were
12 hiding while observing the killings taking place?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, sir. Can I -- I am sorry,
15 Your Honour.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MR. CANNATA:
18 Q. Sir, the Usher will provide you with a pen, and I would like you
19 to mark, if you can, on that picture where you were hiding behind the
20 shed, roughly.
21 A. I was here.
22 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, sir. That's enough. Can I
23 tender this document into exhibit, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
25 please be given an exhibit number. Do you want it under seal, sir, or do
1 you want it just like that?
2 MR. CANNATA: I'll have it under seal, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal, ma'am.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P02687, under
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MR. CANNATA: I'm reminded that, for clarity of the record, I
8 would like to state that the X marked by the witness indicated where he
9 was standing at --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where he was hiding.
11 MR. CANNATA: Yes, where he was hiding.
12 Can I now have doc ID 0041-3588.
13 Q. Sir, do you see the picture here in front of you?
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. Do you see the -- Alija's house?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't think that's how you should ask the
17 question. You should ask him what is it he sees.
18 MR. CANNATA: I'll rephrase the question, Your Honour.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MR. CANNATA:
22 Q. Sir, can you tell us what you see in this picture?
23 A. I wouldn't say that this is Alija's house. Alija's house is more
24 to this side. And this is Cinkara. On the left-hand side there was a
25 shed, and on the left there were corn fields. The fence was broken. And
1 through the fence you could see the corn fields, and left to the corn
2 fields there was Alija's house. And this seems to be below Cinkara.
3 There's asphalt, I'm not clear what it is, what this is. It should be
4 left to the Cinkara. I'm really not clear what I see here.
5 There should be a broken fence here where you can go through
6 the -- to the corn field. A shed is to the left, Cinkara is to this side
7 here, and Alija's house is even further to the left.
8 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, sir. Let me then show you another
9 picture. Maybe it could be of assistance to you. It's doc ID --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't want to raise prematurely,
12 but I believe for the record, this photo should be admitted into evidence
13 and it should also be stated that the witness was pointing with his left
14 hand the directions on -- with regard to this photo.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His house is to the left from
17 MR. CANNATA: I was about to deal with this document after the
18 next document I called, so if I can carry on with my own examination, I
19 would be grateful.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may do so, sir.
21 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much.
22 Now, can I have -- is the document that I called on the screen?
23 No. Can I have document ID 0041-3587.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, counsel.
1 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.
2 Q. Sir, can you tell us what you see in this picture? Do you
3 recognise anything here? If you can.
4 A. The only thing I recognise is the Cinkara, and I can see a fence,
5 but it should be broken on this side, but again, I'm not clear about the
6 thicket here. Alija's house is on the left, above the house is the
7 property border, and I don't know where the shed is. Can you bring back
8 the photo depicting the shed? This is the Cinkara, and to the left is
9 Alija's house, but I can't see it in this photo. It should not be
10 covered by anything, so Alija's house, I can't see it. But again I can
11 see the broken fence. I'm really not clear what I'm seeing in this
13 Q. Sir, that will be enough. You say that you see the broken fence.
14 Can you, again, mark it with the pen and an X. Thank you.
15 A. This is the broken fence here. Here you can see where the fence
16 is broken and through here you could get to Alija's house. Through here.
17 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
18 A. This is where it was broken.
19 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
20 MR. CANNATA: And for the record, the witness marked where the
21 fence was broken. Can I tender this document into evidence, under seal,
22 Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness also said he can see the Cinkara.
24 Don't you want him to mark the Cinkara?
25 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Sir, are you able to mark in this picture the Cinkara?
2 A. The Cinkara should be here, and these trucks are outside of the
3 Cinkara perimeter. Cinkara should be here, more towards me. What can I
4 see here? Some iron. This is where the Cinkara should be located.
5 Q. Can you mark it with the letter A, if you can.
6 A. Well, this is the Cinkara here.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
8 please be given an exhibit number, under seal.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2688, under
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MR. CANNATA:
13 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Now, let me take you back to what
14 happened on the -- on the -- on July 1995. Now --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do that, you promised that you were
16 going to go back to document ID 0041-3588 once you have guided the
17 witness through this one. Are you still going to come back to it?
18 MR. CANNATA: May I have a moment to consult, Your Honour? Thank
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. CANNATA: All right. Let's see. Can I have that document
22 again, which is doc ID 0041-3588.
23 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to take again and look at the photo and
24 tell me whether --
25 A. What we can see here is the perimeter of the Cinkara where you
1 can see the -- this object. This is the Cinkara. And now I can't see
2 the broken fence. I was there only once under the [indiscernible], and I
3 don't remember it well. And from it there is the Cinkara, to the left
4 you went through the fence, through the corn field towards Alija's house.
5 Here is where the asphalt is, where is the Cinkara, then the fence, the
6 corn fields, the fence was broken, on the left-hand side; and then there
7 was the corn field, there was the massacre here, and Alija's house was on
8 the left. And this is the Cinkara, but I can't see the broken fence
9 which led towards Alija's house, and it was, indeed, broken.
10 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Now, you said this is the Cinkara.
11 Can you mark it in this photo?
12 A. Yes, you can see all the materials that are piled up here in the
13 Cinkara. This object, the materials that are piled up, this is within
14 the perimeter of the Cinkara. That's what I've been telling you. The
15 scaffolding here is also the Cinkara, and this is also the Cinkara.
16 Everything is Cinkara here.
17 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, sir. Now, for the record, all
18 the markings marked by the witness do represent what the Cinkara is in
19 this picture. May I tender this document into evidence under seal,
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Except that the marking of the pile is pile of the
22 things that are on the Cinkara. The document is admitted into evidence.
23 May it please be given an exhibit number, under seal.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2689, under
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MR. CANNATA:
3 Q. Sir, did you at some point in time during the morning of 13th
4 July, 1995, manage to leave Potocari?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And how did you manage to do that?
7 A. The massacre lasted all night. Zoran Dimitrijevic told me to
8 spend the night there, everything from Cinkara across the asphalt in the
9 perimeter of the transport firms. Zoran Dimitrijevic from Bratunac told
10 me to go to the centre of that transport company because there would
11 be -- and we all crossed over. The Cinkara remained empty. There was
12 blood all over the place. We went to the Cinkara. All the night there
13 were rapes going on, slaughter, and then it dawned and I --
14 Q. Sir.
15 A. -- went down there to wash my face in the river.
16 Q. Sir, please. Let me repeat again what I asked you before. Now,
17 I asked you a specific question. What I'm asking you to do is two things
18 actually: Listen to my question and answer to my questions. My
19 questions was about the morning of the 13th and the way you managed to
20 leave Potocari; and secondly, when answering my questions, please speak
21 slowly and preferably make short sentences. Okay?
22 A. It dawned in the morning. I set out. There was a rope there.
23 The Serb Army was separating people. They lifted the rope and then they
24 separated the men. Then they tightened the rope. I ducked under the
25 rope, I went through, nobody stopped me, and I got on a bus.
1 Q. What happened then when you got into the bus, on to the bus?
2 A. The driver waited for the bus to be full, and when the bus was
3 full we started moving towards Bratunac down there.
4 MR. CANNATA: Can we please move into private session,
5 Your Honour, briefly.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
7 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May I just ask one little
8 question. Sir, who were in the bus apart from yourself?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Women and children.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were you the only adult male in the bus?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there was also Adem Mekranic
12 and Mehmed Zuhric as well.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may proceed, counsel.
14 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
15 Q. Was Luke the final stop of your travel?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And from Luke, did you manage to get to the territory controlled
18 by the BiH Army?
19 A. Three to 4 kilometres from there, there were Serbs. We went all
20 the way to the Serbian Army controlled area to the tunnel and that's
21 where our own people took us over.
22 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, if I may have a second to consult
23 again. Thank you very much.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MR. CANNATA:
1 Q. Sir, how did you manage to get through the Serbian controlled
3 A. The Serbian Army tried to get on the bus, but Raco wouldn't let
4 them. And they somehow made him, they didn't want to force their way.
5 Q. Is there anything that Raco said to any particular individual
6 about you?
7 A. He only asked me where my sons were, and I told them that they
8 had left across the woods. Then he said, That's not good. The Serbian
9 Army set up ambushes, that they would be killed, and that there is
10 killing going on among the Muslims themselves. And he only wished that
11 they were able to cross the woods alive.
12 Q. But, sir, let me -- maybe there was an interpretation or
13 something that -- a glitch. But I asked you whether is there anything
14 that Raco said to somebody else about you? Not to you, it's about you,
15 to let you through the Serb territory?
16 A. When we arrived in Luke, when we arrived in Luke, when we got off
17 the bus, Raco stood up and told me to stand up myself. He took out a
18 litre of cognac and two kinds of food, and he said, Take these, put it in
19 some woman's bag. If I thought I'd find you here, I would have some
20 German marks on me to give you. I only have Serb marks and they won't do
21 you any good.
22 There was a man standing by the door wearing a camouflage uniform
23 and some markings of an officer, and Raco told him, Vojvoda, allow our
24 colleague to go through the ranks of your army, he says, He will, nobody
25 will touch him, then I started walking and Vojvoda asked me to escort a
1 sick woman. She couldn't walk herself -- on her own and I helped her
2 walk. That's how it was.
3 Q. And did you help her through the BiH controlled territory?
4 A. I did, yes.
5 Q. And, sir, coming back to your evidence, the officer is that Raco
6 spoke to, what army, as far as you can tell, did he belong to?
7 A. The Serb Army.
8 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, sir. I have no further
9 questions. That completes my direct examination. Thank you very much.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Cannata.
11 Mr. Lukic.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. I'm Novak Lukic, and I'm going to have some questions for you.
16 A. Go ahead.
17 Q. I would just kindly ask you to answer as slowly as possible and
18 wait a little bit after my question, that will give you time to think.
19 Everything needs to be translated really well. I'm also going to try to
20 speak slowly. Please wait a little bit. After my question, I'll do the
21 same after your answer, sir.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think we should move into private
23 session just for a brief moment, if we may.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
25 [Private session]
11 Page 8894 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 8895 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Do you remember when you gave your first statement, I'm not going
14 to give any more details about when and to whom because we are in open
15 session, that that statement was taken in such a way that you gave your
16 story to the inspector and then he wrote it down, or rather, dictated it?
17 A. Do you mean the one in Milici?
18 Q. Just a second. No, I mean the first statement. You don't need
19 to tell me where it was, but the first statement you gave after the
20 events in Srebrenica.
21 A. To the SUP
22 were a lot of us there in that room. There were five of us and a girl
23 was there, and I think that they were drunk. And all of them started
24 putting questions and when they asked me to sign, then they read it out
25 for me first. But he didn't even put my year of birth there.
1 Q. Just a minute. I'm asking you very specifically, that statement,
2 when you gave it, was it given in such a way that inspector put questions
3 to you, you replied, and then he dictated the record to the typist?
4 A. No, no. He wrote it down on a simple piece of paper. There were
5 five or six of us there. And then when he read out to me, it was not
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will have to do some redacting,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you want redacted, Mr. Lukic?
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] He gave his personal information
12 here, page 36, line 13. If you don't object to that remaining there, I
13 don't have a problem with it.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we have that redacted, Madam Registrar,
16 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So there before him you signed the statement?
19 A. Yes. He told me --
20 Q. No, no, I'm asking you this first, just to be as specific as
21 possible. Did you sign the statement there in front of him?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, this statement that was before you, and you said that you
24 had problems with how it was compiled?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did he dictate the statement to a woman, a typist, who was typing
3 A. No, there was no typist there.
4 Q. But what you signed was typed on a typewriter?
5 A. No, the inspector who questioned me, he wrote down my answers on
6 a plain piece of paper.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we go back into
8 private session.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 8899-8901 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, for the record, we are back in open
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Just one more question to explore things that happened in the
19 past. I assume that you served in the Yugoslav People's Army a long time
21 A. Yes, in 1955 and 1956.
22 Q. And following that, you were in reserve forces?
23 A. No. I was a member of the Auto Unit in the army and nobody ever
24 called me up.
25 Q. All right. But your sons had wartime assignments?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And your sons also served in the JNA?
3 A. Yes, they did.
4 Q. Now, those two nights and two days while you were in
5 Srebrenica -- rather, in Potocari, I apologise, I understood that you
6 were on the 12th in the main area of Cinkara, in the main compound?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But I also understood that you were able to leave the Cinkara
9 compound and move about?
10 A. Yes, up until 10.00, and then at 10.00, they put the ropes around
11 and they said, Don't go anywhere, the Serb Army is around.
12 Q. You said that at some point later in the afternoon before this
13 incident happened that people went out into a meadow in front of Cinkara?
14 A. Yes, that's correct. It was above the shed or the stable.
15 Q. So it is outside of the compound itself?
16 A. Yes, yes, correct.
17 Q. You said that you found yourself in that area, that you showed on
18 the photograph near Alija's house. You had fled there from Cinkara?
19 A. Well, when I was above the stable and there were people further
20 up from me and then the Chetniks came from above and they all rushed
21 (redacted) And the
22 rest of the people, they all went down to Cinkara.
23 Q. In your first statement that you gave -- just a bit of patience
24 please and we will have it on our screens. These people that were
25 executed in that incident in front of Alija's house, you said that some
1 of them were familiar to you by sight?
2 A. Yes, and I don't remember their names.
3 Q. You also stated this at the police station?
4 A. Most likely, but I can't remember, it was a long time ago.
5 Q. Did anybody at the police station or did anybody from the OTP
6 show to you photographs of the missing people so that you could try to
7 recognise some of them among those photographs?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did the OTP investigators suggest to you to go with them to the
10 site, to the actual location, to show it to them there?
11 A. No, they didn't.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will have to go into private
13 session again.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please go into private session.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 8905-8908 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may say so now in open
13 session, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I've finished my cross-examination
15 and I would like to thank the witness. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. In open session, Mr. Cannata
17 do you have any re-examination.
18 MR. CANNATA: Yes, one minor point, but I need to do that in
19 private session.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Page 8910 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
9 Just to repeat what you said, to say thank you very much, sir.
10 This brings us to the end of your testimony. You are now released to go
11 home. Thank you so much for coming to testify at the Tribunal. You may
12 now stand down and please travel well back home.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. And I'd like to thank
14 you as well.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Shall we be in private session for the witness to
16 leave the court?
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
19 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
4 Mr. Cannata.
5 MR. CANNATA: I think we have no other witnesses for today,
6 Your Honour. I think next witness is scheduled for next week, but I
7 leave Mr. Harmon to address the --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon. I recognise you, Mr. Lukic, I'll come
9 back to you.
10 Mr. Harmon.
11 MR. HARMON: I'm informed, Your Honour, there are no additional
12 witnesses this week and the next witness will be scheduled for Monday.
13 That's what I had been informed.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, you had something to say.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to use the next couple
16 of minutes to tender into evidence some document that have just recently
17 been translated and also a document that I owe you from last week. Maybe
18 we could do it in the next five minutes, if you don't mind.
19 The first document is D55 MFI
20 1D00-8906. And I would like it to be tendered into evidence and not to
21 be marked for identification any more.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I've not seen the translation yet.
24 I've not been provided with a copy of it. So at this point, I would ask
25 that it remain MFI
1 obviously if it's -- there are no problems, I have no objection to the
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We sent it ten days ago, but I
4 understand Mr. Harmon's objection. I'm going to give it the numbers of
5 the documents. D55, D57, I'm not going to give you the e-court numbers.
6 D76, D85, and D42.
7 I don't know if Mr. Harmon can check the translation based on
8 these numbers or does he need any additional information, but I would not
9 like to burden the Trial Chamber any further. I will clear it up with
10 Mr. Harmon. There's just one document that is contestable still, but for
11 that document we have to go into private session.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, now, all these, are these all MFI'd?
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Well, so what are you saying? Are you
15 saying --
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We merged all the English
17 translations, and the lack of translation was the only reason why they
18 were MFI
19 check those and then they can be tendered into evidence. There is just
20 one document, if you remember, which was offered last week, but for that
21 document to be discussed we have to go into private session.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, fine. Mr. Harmon, you will tell us next
23 week whether you have seen the translations and then we can remove the
25 MR. HARMON: Yes, sir.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May the Chamber please move
2 into private session.
3 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back into open session.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 Mr. Harmon, it looks like we are losing a lot of time with
12 postponements as a result of lack of witnesses, and last week I spoke to
13 the team to try and ask how much time we have lost by way of this, and I
14 was surprised and actually shocked to find that we have lost more hours
15 than we have spent in court. I won't give you the numbers but those are
16 the number that I got that the postponement time is more than the time we
17 have spent in court.
18 Is there a way we can solve this problem?
19 MR. HARMON: I need to get back to you on that, Your Honour. I'm
20 not sure there is -- we have a handful of witnesses that remain. We
21 have and application before the Court for another witness, and we'll be
22 making one additional application. So I cannot give you a solution as I
23 stand here now.
24 What I can tell you is that we will work, you know, consciously
25 quite frankly, to get these witnesses here as soon as possible. Many of
1 the problems that exist, for example, there are travel document problems
2 with the witness, I was told, for Monday. So while we had him scheduled,
3 there appear to be some difficulties in securing the proper travel
4 documents. I have no control over that.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It all depends on how much in advance of the
6 witness testifying all these arrangements are made. It's a logistical
7 problem which needs proper planning.
8 MR. HARMON: I agree with that, Your Honour. And the recent
9 problems, not the past problems, we've had a significant number of past
10 problems that relate to that, most recent problems are relating to
11 witnesses who have been generated as a result of the new agreement.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought those are the three --
13 MR. HARMON: There are three and then there's been problems in
14 terms of securing the attendance of a witness, I believe he goes by the
15 pseudonym MP-11, where we had to go to foreign governments to attempt to
16 secure a person's attendance. He had been scheduled many times in the
18 I'm not trying to make excuses, Your Honour. I've found this
19 trial to be exceptionally frustrating in securing the attendance of
20 witnesses and travel difficulties with witnesses in this case. I can't
21 offer any explanations. I can't -- I'm not here to offer excuses. I can
22 only offer my sincere undertaking that we will attempt to get them here
23 as quickly as we can and as efficiently as we can.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
25 Okay. We'll then stand adjourned to next Monday, at 2.15 in the
1 afternoon. Courtroom II. Court adjourned.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.12 p.m.
3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of
4 September, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.